August 29, 2025 • 61 mins
In part two, Lyndsey continues her courageous domestic violence survivor story, exposing the realities of life after leaving an abusive relationship. She opens up about the trauma responses that follow abuse, the challenges of co-parenting with an abuser, and the emotional impact on her children. Lyndsey shares her experience of navigating the justice system, the cycle of manipulation and intimidation, and the lasting scars of emotional, physical, and psychological abuse. She goes into detail about the trial, revealing the emotional toll of facing her abuser in court and the painful ways the legal system often retraumatized her while she fought for justice and safety.
Through raw honesty, she highlights the hidden battles survivors face—financial struggles, fear of retaliation, and the long journey of trauma healing and abuse recovery. Yet, Lyndsey also shows the power of resilience, rebuilding her identity, creating a safe home for her children, and reclaiming her voice. Her story is a powerful reminder of the strength it takes to survive domestic violence and the hope that healing and freedom are possible.
Lyndsey’s Socials
https://www.instagram.com/lyndseyh6723
https://www.instagram.com/living.inthe.aftermath
The Refuge Utah
https://www.instagram.com/therefugeutah
National Domestic Violence Hotline
800-799-7233
Find local resources: https://www.thehotline.org/get-help/domestic-violence-local-resources/
Domestic Violence & Sexual Assault Center
U.S Department of Justice’s Legal Assistance for Victims Program: https://www.justice.gov/ovw/legal-assistance-victims-program
Resources for assistance - financial, housing, necessities, food, etc.
https://www.domesticshelters.org
Beyond the Monsters Socials
https://www.instagram.com/beyondthemonsters/
https://linktr.ee/BeyondtheMonsters
*Disclaimer: The content shared on this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only. The discussions and experiences shared are based on our personal stories and opinions. This is not medical advice, and it should not be used as a substitute for professional medical guidance. Always consult with a qualified healthcare provider for any concerns or questions regarding your health.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi and welcome back to Beyond the Monsters.
Today I have Lyndsey again for part two.
you
Okay, Lyndsey, I think we should start from when you guys are going to court.
(00:24):
Okay.
Jury trial.
Okay.
Let's start from there.
rough rough time to start.
That's a rough starting point.
So going to jury trial, obviously that whole process was really difficult because I hadjust left a situation where I had been made to question every decision I was making.
(00:45):
I didn't trust the world.
I had been held prisoner essentially for a whole year.
So leaving my apartment felt really scary.
And like I had mentioned before, I was so lucky to have been put in contact with therefuge and they got me into an apartment where my kids and I kind of started regaining our
confidence and who we were.
And I think that was huge.
(01:05):
It was really difficult because I had to let him know where the kids were.
And because he was released right after his arrest, he would drive our apartment complex.
And there was an act of protective order against him.
But every time I tried to enforce it, they would tell me that unless I could get a clearpicture of his license plate, I couldn't prove that it was him, essentially, it was
(01:25):
impossible to enforce.
And so I just constantly felt unsafe.
And I was told.
intimidating you.
absolutely.
Because obviously he knows you're going to eventually see him.
Well, and I was told that custody had not been set for our children because we hadn't goneto divorce yet.
And so if he takes the kids, police aren't going to go and get the kids from him.
(01:46):
You have to fight.
Because there's no paternity set.
So they're not going to sit and take it.
So I was scared to send my daughter out to play on the park or have my kids walk home fromschool because I knew he was still not working.
And I'm having to work full time because I'm having to provide and pay rent and do all ofthe things that normal adults do.
And so it just, I
(02:07):
was constantly living in fear.
And that was really, really hard.
em I think that it was almost a blessing in disguise that it did take so long to get tojury trial because it gave me time to kind of get my bearings and figure out what I needed
and what my place was in it because that was what frustrated me so much the first time wasthat no one could identify what my part was in it.
(02:32):
And so it gave me that time.
to identify where I stood and how I wanted to show up in the situation because beingthrown into anything with the justice system is terrifying and confusing and it happened
so fast.
And so because of COVID, everything was just paused.
So we were having hearings and it sucked.
(02:53):
It sucked so bad to have us all hold on to that day.
And it was hard too, because I knew that every detail of that day was gonna bescrutinized.
And so I couldn't.
forget it and I couldn't let myself forget it.
And I couldn't, it was so hard.
Every time I tried to sleep, that's what I saw.
And every time it was just hard and it was hard to have people understand the emotionaltoll that that.
(03:18):
So um like I said, I think he tried to push that because he thought it would intimidate meand I wouldn't go through with it.
On top of that, the kids didn't want to go.
And I think he knew I was the one dealing with the emotions on the back end of that.
I was the one where they were like, I don't want to do this.
And we were all in therapy, which was huge for us.
(03:42):
We couldn't have done it otherwise because my therapist saved every...
She was my person, right?
She was my sounding board.
And it was really hard because I had had therapists that weren't great.
um Right when I left him, I had gone to a therapist and I remember she told me that I wasgoing to be investigated by CPS because I went back to an abuser and took my kids back
(04:06):
into an abusive situation knowingly and that was me putting my kids in danger and so now Iwas going to be investigated.
I never went back to her.
I was terrified because I was like, okay, I was trying to make my family work.
I don't understand.
And it was just so scary for me to trust anyone and try and get them to understand what Iwas.
(04:26):
And I'm like, you're therapist.
Like you're supposed to understand this.
And she just made me feel like I had done everything.
Absolutely.
And I had already felt that.
Like, thank you.
I You're supposed to not feel that way, lady.
So when I moved, em I found a new therapist down where I was at, and she was incredible.
(04:47):
Like, she was the one, I remember one time she told me, she's like, you know your opinionsdon't have to be fact based, right?
And I was like, what?
And she's like, no, you can just have an opinion.
And I was like, I don't understand.
Yeah, because you weren't allowed to.
I had to defend every thought I had.
So I think therapy was huge for us and just like being able to kind of regain who we were.
(05:11):
so whenever the kids would come to me and say, I don't want to do this, like I don't wantto go to court rightfully.
So who does?
I don't either.
Right.
And I think she helped me a lot when she's like, okay, like, no, you don't have to defendhis actions.
Like you can say, you know, I don't want to go either, but unless dad holds himselfaccountable.
(05:33):
this is what we have to do because that's the situation we've been put in.
So I didn't ever want them to feel like it was bad mouthing him.
But at the same time, they saw him.
They saw him do
Well, and the good thing is too, I would think probably you could look back and thinkthey're learning that you have consequences for behaviors.
(05:55):
and I think that was the biggest thing because I had always been the one to get him out ofthe consequences, right?
I had been the one to his back.
No one in my family knew he was dating other women.
And again, why would I advertise that?
That is humiliating for me as a wife.
So I just I had done that for years.
And I was just like, OK, like not my responsibility.
(06:15):
It's not my responsibility to defend this or get you out of it.
And so it sucked.
But it helped us stand our ground.
So we go to jury trial.
And it was a two day jury trial.
I remember asking, our trial, it was attached to the police station, the courtroom was.
And the kids had not seen him in person.
(06:36):
They had been doing once a week Zoom calls with him or twice a week or something likethat.
It was very, very little and only on Zoom.
And so I had asked the judge, I said, can the kids Zoom and talk to you or the attorney,like, do they have to come in?
They can be on property.
but can they just zoom?
Like, people come in, I will sit there, but can they just answer the questions via zoom?
(06:59):
And his attorney was like, no, absolutely not.
And he had the kids come in and testify.
And I remember they brought my son in and you could tell he was just heartbroken andintimidated.
And that's a scary environment.
it was-
they again at this point?
This was 2022 and he is almost 15 now.
(07:22):
13.
He's little.
I mean, old enough to know what's going on, but definitely not old enough for me to haveany sort of productive conversation to where he can understand really what's happening.
sit in a courtroom and there's a judge, know, these attorneys.
and like jury and it was just it's intimidating.
(07:42):
It's what you see on tv.
It looked like that and so the kids came in and I remember his attorney said do you loveyour dad and I was like of course he does like what kind of question is that and of course
that's the first question you're gonna ask him to like break him down and I remember heasked my son like what did you see and my son panicked and froze and didn't say anything.
(08:07):
Which I was nervous about, obviously.
Like, who knows what a kid is gonna do, especially sitting in front of their dad the firsttime he sees them in person.
And he just sat there and smiled at him the whole time.
Because I'm sitting there and I'm just feeling mama bear protect.
The time, the whole time.
And I'm trying not to react.
(08:28):
The city prosecutor is telling me have no reaction.
Do not react to what they're doing.
I better sit on my hands.
I better wear a mask.
And so it was the hardest thing to I feel like that's kind of where I learned to kind offind my voice again because I had to contain all of those things that I felt and wanted to
(08:49):
just scream and cry.
I had to hold all of that in because the whole story was that I did it to myself and I wascrazy and I made it up and if I showed that at all.
I was told, and I don't know if this is correct, I believe it's correct, but I was toldthat if one jury member didn't believe one part of one of his charges that he was off the
hook.
Like it was an all or nothing kind of situation.
(09:11):
And so I was just nervous.
like, that's so like, I mean, I have the pictures in my face.
I felt confident and I knew I was telling the truth.
But again, you're trying to convince random strangers that these things happened.
he's a very good manipulator.
Absolutely.
And his attorney probably was too.
Oh.
good.
Yeah.
So my daughter comes and she's on stand.
(09:33):
So she right now will turn 18 in September.
And so I don't 15 ish 16.
She gets on stand and she has a very different demeanor.
She's mad.
She's mad.
Okay.
And she's sad, but she's more mad.
She was just very blunt.
And she's like, No, this is what I saw.
(09:53):
And like she said the things she remembered are the things that she saw.
And that was hard as a mom.
I was so proud of her for facing that moment because I was scared to face that moment.
Just the fact that she had to do it.
Yeah.
And so I always wonder now like how that's gonna change how she shows up in the world andhow she shows up in relationships and you know, just her demeanor in.
(10:19):
need to keep showing up for her.
I think that's all you'll need to worry about.
She knows that.
She has someone solid.
So we go through that day of jury trial and I believe that was the day that theyquestioned me.
And the following day was the day that he was bringing his witnesses.
And his witnesses were friend that was living with us and his friend's dad that we hadgone to his house that day and my kids called him grandpa.
(10:52):
he said, yes, he was his other witness.
Okay.
They come in and of course his friend, no, I don't know.
I had headphones on and I was told that his reaction of, well, what happened was becausehe was live streaming a video game and he didn't know how to react.
Was what I was told.
(11:12):
I don't know if that's true.
I still think you're a pansy.
Do whatever you will with that, but I don't care.
So he came in, I don't know.
I was there all the time, but like,
I don't know.
And then I think at one point he said, you know, I wasn't even there that day.
So then the prosecutor brought up the body cam video and in the body cam video, he says,no, I was here.
(11:35):
had gone to lunch with my ex-girlfriend or something like that.
it just showed a really good Which was really good for our case.
Well, then the friend's dad comes in and I had no idea what to expect with this one.
Really?
Like I didn't have any clue.
And he goes on stand and
(11:55):
I mean, he always was very well-spoken.
was always well-dressed and just always carried himself well, right?
And so I was like, this could go really bad.
I don't know.
Well, he comes in and I don't even remember how they led into it.
But the city prosecutor was asking about my appearance and asking about my black eyes andleading into that.
(12:19):
And he was like, no, she looked fine.
And so the city prosecutor
popped up on the screen a picture that the police had of my black eyes and the cut acrossmy nose and he lost it.
Like, started screaming and he was like, no, she didn't look like that.
It was like a TV.
I was like, what is happening?
(12:41):
It was the weirdest thing.
Belligerent, the judge had to tell him to calm down.
And he was like, no, I saw her.
She didn't look like that.
And I was like, it was just mind blowing because I'm like.
Like then you're still trying to talk to yourself.
Don't say anything.
uh
had and it was just the weirdest.
And so I was like, okay.
(13:02):
So at this point, again, I'm feeling like things are going okay, but they haven't put himon the stand yet.
And they put him on the stand and it's the same story that you would expect.
The whole like, you know, she made it up, she's tried to leave me.
Like all the things, right?
And I'm honestly, I feel like I kind of blacked out at that point because I didn't reallycare what his excuse was.
(13:23):
I knew it wasn't gonna be the truth.
and I knew that I couldn't react to it.
So in a sense, I almost felt like I blacked out because I was like, I'm not, but I'm not,but not really.
Because I didn't, also didn't want him to feel like I was intimidated by him.
didn't want to give him that satisfaction.
was done.
And as much as I was terrified, I was like, okay, like I can do this.
(13:45):
So uh I remember we broke for the jury to deliberate and it felt like days, like.
I walked over into the police station and all the people working at the police station hadthe courtroom cameras on like watching.
And it was just like, I felt so supported and that was amazing.
(14:05):
But it was just nerve wracking to sit there and just wonder what the outcome was gonna be.
And I remember my victim's advocate was the only person that could come in the courtroomwith me.
So I couldn't have like, and at this point I was talking to my family.
We were rebuilding those relationships.
ship.
But it was slow.
It's hard when you've been betrayed by someone that's supposed to love you.
(14:26):
It's really hard to trust other people.
eh And I always feel too, when you've been through any sort of trauma, I feel like youcome to a place where it's hard to ask for help because you don't trust that it's going to
happen or when they do, it makes you feel bad or all the different things.
Did you feel like your family abandoned you during that time or did you, was it more you?
(14:47):
No.
It was definitely more me.
Like I knew my mental state and my emotional state couldn't handle any sort of perceivedrejection, if that makes sense.
So like when I would ask, hey, can you just come and sit at my house for me to sleep?
And they couldn't accommodate that.
I knew that wasn't a personal thing.
People have lives, right?
You can't come sit at my house all the time.
(15:07):
I understand that.
But they also didn't understand the importance of why I was asking.
And we never really found that middle ground.
And it was too hard for me to like ask for things and then not have them met.
it started attacking me rebuilding who I was and my worth because I had already feltworthless.
And so I was like, I just kind of cut myself off.
And that was definitely a me thing.
Like they were showing up, they were taking my kids places, like they were doing all thethings to build the relationship and I was doing what I could to show up, but my trauma
(15:34):
was just still so there.
you can only show up with what you have at that time.
So I was with my victim's advocate.
And I remember telling her, once they read the verdict, I want to leave.
I don't need to be there for whatever they say after.
Because I knew I was holding my emotions for days.
(15:56):
And I knew I was nearing the end.
And I didn't know what the verdict was going to be.
I knew they weren't giving him his sentence that day.
I just knew they were telling me whether he was guilty or not guilty.
And so I remember we walked back into the courtroom.
and he was sitting there and I remember he turned back and looked at me and I don't evenknow what the look on my face was.
(16:17):
I felt so scared because in my mind, I knew what had happened, but like what happens ifthey don't believe me?
know, like what?
And we sat down and the jury person stood up and they read the thing and found him guilty.
(16:39):
on all five charges.
And I remember I instantly stood up.
I didn't even give myself time to like take a breath.
It was like up and out.
And I don't know if he turned back and looked.
don't like, I was just out of there.
And I remember I went and sat in the police station and I had the officers tell me when hehad left the parking lot because I didn't know how long they were gonna take.
(17:04):
I needed a minute to process everything.
I just felt numb.
I was gonna say, what were you feeling?
Absolutely nothing at that moment.
I think I was scared too, because at this point, he's still free.
He still gets to drive off and go somewhere.
And now I have, in his mind, I'm the
that ruins his knows what's going on in his mind.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(17:24):
And so I'm grateful, but terrified and all the things, Well, and also knowing too, like,I've got to go home and tell my kids, right?
Because they're sitting there waiting.
And what kid wants to know, your dad was found guilty of domestic violence and like, Idon't know, just horrible crappy situation, So it happens.
(17:53):
I think it was about a month later that they did his sentencing and I remember reading myvictim's impact statement and that letter was a difficult one to write.
I remember this one I understood much better than the first one that I wrote during a sixweek time period and I think I wanted it to be made very clear that this was not the like
(18:16):
I knew this was the first time he was in front of a jury and I knew this was the firsttime he was convicted but
I wanted it to be made so clear that this was years that I was living with.
This was not a one day thing.
This was years.
And I just wanted someone to know that before everything happened.
And I remember they gave him the opportunity to come on and give his, I don't even knowwhat they call, I guess an impact, same after mine.
(18:44):
He came on after.
And I remember I was just sitting in the corner, like, crying, like, after I was done.
Because it's like one of those things that you just like, you hold yourself together forthe moment that you need to, and then you're just done.
Like, there's nothing else you can give.
And I remember just hearing him saying that he understood how this was going to impact himand how he couldn't take his kids on field trips now because he's been, he has a record.
(19:10):
like,
That's what he was worried about.
all he said, like the whole time.
And it was mind blowing.
It was mind blowing.
at that point, humble your.
Right, but was it really like it was mind-blowing at the time, but I shows up absolutely
at this point, like humble yourself enough so that you don't have a sentence so that youcan like, but no, he wants everyone to believe and do it.
(19:37):
So he's got to stay the victim.
And I mean, no, wasn't shocking, but yeah, a little bit.
Is really still that's like at what point?
uh right.
I guess just not clicking.
Not at all.
Not at all.
And so the judge came on, and he was amazing.
He was like, I don't hear any remarks from you.
Like, this is ridiculous.
(19:57):
Like, you only talked about how this has affected you.
You didn't acknowledge your children.
You didn't acknowledge this woman who stood by you.
You didn't acknowledge any of them.
And so the judge.
mean, what he said made me feel better than the actual punishment sentence, whatever itwas.
ended up giving him 28 days in custody and then 30 days house arrest.
(20:22):
But keep in mind, he's not working still.
So tell me what kind of punishment house arrest is.
Maybe tell him to get a job.
That would have been more punishment.
Yeah.
And then they wanted like 20 hours of community service.
And I came back and I was like, are you joking?
Like I work 40 hours in a week to take care of the children that he does not support.
So why don't we do a little better than that?
(20:43):
It's still a misdemeanor?
Yeah.
All five were misdemeanors, which is crazy to me because now I look back.
So I go and speak to high schools now, which we'll get to that part in the story.
But I tell them in the state of Utah, it is a higher charge for them to have a nakedpicture of themselves on their cell phone that they never sent to anyone than he got.
(21:04):
That is a more severe charge.
And I mean, granted, that's terrifying, right?
Who wants teenagers to have that?
But also mind blowing.
that them to have a picture of their very own body that they don't even send to anyone isa more severe charge than he got for nearly killing me.
That's mind-blowing to me.
No, just broken.
(21:25):
The whole system is always broken.
Everyone talks about it.
But I think until you live it, you don't really understand what that means or what thatlooks like.
yeah, great.
It's such a great time, right?
So shortly after jury trial concluded, the Refuge Utah, so this was a nonprofitorganization that helped me and my children, reached out to me and asked if I would be
(21:48):
interested in sitting on their board and being a voice for survivors.
And I was like, absolutely.
I was so grateful.
also felt a little bit like under qualified.
I my first meeting I went and I had joined with two other members and one like worked at abank and one worked at a college and they came to me and I just didn't really understand
(22:09):
my place and I didn't I mean I had been a stay-at-home mom and then I was kind of findingmyself you know and so they came to me and they're like introduce yourself and I was like
um I'm a stay-at-home mom and I'm an office manager of a flight school and I have threekids and that
And I was like, and so they were like, welcome.
were all so.
Yeah, they go about the meeting and like I still have not said like I'm a survivor nothingright No one knows this outside of the director of the refuge and so they get to this
(22:36):
point where they're talking about something about the website and what they think is worthspending money on and so I kind of I'm like, okay Well, I feel something about this I have
an opinion and I remembered my therapist telling me that opinions didn't have to be fact Iraised my hand and I was like well and so I said I'm like this is my opinion about this
and this is why I have it
And that was kind of like the beginning of me finding like where I fit in that world,right?
(23:01):
And so that was kind of like where I think I started figuring out what this was going tolook like for me.
And I always knew that what I went through had to have a purpose.
It's going to live inside me forever.
There's not going to be anything I can do to change that.
But if what is inside me has something that I'm using it for that's more beautiful than
(23:25):
it was dark, then I think that that's amazing.
And that was kind of where that shift started.
So I started going to board meetings.
I started going to their candlelight walks.
They asked me to speak at their candlelight walk.
And it was just like a 10 or 15 minute speech.
But my kids got to come.
(23:46):
And it was just beautiful.
It was perfect and everything that I wanted it to be.
You're probably starting to make friends in there.
Like everything was just kind of start it was still scary, but like I was starting to feellike things made sense At this point.
I'm still married to him because We couldn't go to divorce He was asking for 50-50 custodyof the kids and I was like you are delusional like absolutely not I'm not just giving in
(24:10):
to you.
That is what I have done for 18 years.
I am done right so no so Like I had mentioned I was I was
represented by a free service.
It's called Utah Legal Services.
And they were always so nice.
But um by the time we got to divorce, I think this was like my fourth or fifth attorneywith them.
(24:31):
And so it had just essentially been a file that had been passed down until we got totrial, which fair, right?
They have so many cases.
I don't expect special treatment.
But again, I wish that it had been respected a little bit more because that's my life.
This document is what the rest of my life will be based off of.
And I don't feel like that ever got portrayed to me, if that makes sense.
(24:53):
I got a call the night before, and she was like, I'm just reading your file, and this isoutrageous.
And I'm like, yeah, I know.
Thank you for the validation.
And so I just remember going in feeling a little anxious and a little nervous.
ah The only thing I had gone in asking for was therapy reintroduction for the kids.
(25:13):
Because they hadn't seen him in person at this point.
They had testified in jury trial, not against him, but just to what they saw.
That's kind of a hard thing when I say that.
That feels awful, because it wasn't against him.
It was just testified.
But I knew that they felt anxious to see him.
And so I was like, feel like therapy reintroduction is normal.
(25:35):
So I said, I'm like, they already have a therapist.
They're already going.
It's already covered by insurance.
I would just like him to come down and meet with.
individually, each of them with their therapist.
And when the therapist says, okay, we're good, then he can have whatever parent time isset today.
But until the therapist signs off, that's what I feel would be best for my children.
These are my reasons.
Okay, which seems fair, more than fair.
(25:58):
The judge turned to me and told me that I was petty, that I needed to be a betterco-parent.
I was shocked.
Uh-huh.
They had all of it there, but according to the court, guess, once a case is like done andtried, it's done.
That doesn't mean that her field or- She made this even more fun.
(26:21):
Protective order is still in place.
He has his new girlfriend with him that, I mean, again, not shocking that she's with him,fine, whatever, but like hard to like,
Right?
Right.
He's his own attorney at this point because his mom is not paying for his attorneyanymore.
So the judge let him call me to the stand and question me.
(26:44):
And I remember turning to the attorney, this one's gonna make me cry.
I remember turning to the attorney and I was like, I can't do this.
Like don't make me do this.
there's a protective order, like can't that stop this?
And she asked the judge and the judge was like, there's a bailiff here, there's peoplehere, she's safe.
I want her stamp.
And I had to go and sit there.
(27:06):
Give a shit about emotionally what that could do or anything.
not even a little bit.
And I had to sit there and he walked right up to the stand and looked me square in theface and knew every word to say, every phrase to say, just he knew every trigger that I
had.
And I had to just sit there and answer questions in the most polite, kind way because Ihad just been told that I was petty.
(27:32):
And I remember...
kind of things did he ask you?
m
I just felt terrified.
Like I froze because I was like, whatever reaction I have right now, this judge is he'sjudging me based on my reactions.
And I knew that at this point.
And so I was just so scared that I was going to say the wrong thing, answer a questionincorrectly, have the wrong face.
(27:52):
I was terrified.
And so obviously, he's representing himself.
He doesn't know all the things.
He's not submitting paperwork correctly.
So now he's sitting on the stand showing the judge
text message screenshots I guess that we didn't even see because he never actuallysubmitted them appropriately and him and the judge are just talking on the stand and I'm
like can we stop this like this doesn't feel like it's going okay and she's like he'sgonna bury himself just let it go and I
(28:19):
attorney said this.
And I'm like, okay, and I don't know, like, I have no idea, right?
And so I'm sitting.
used to him being master manipulator that talks his way through anything.
And she would not shut it down.
So we get to the end and the judge brings up like, we haven't talked about alimony.
(28:40):
Why hasn't alimony been discussed?
And my attorney says something and he's like, well, yeah, you should get alimony.
And I'm like, well, thanks, whatever.
Like, he's not going to pay it.
So I don't care.
Like, So we leave and minimum child parent time is set.
And I have to send the kids with him that weekend.
I got told the therapy reintroduction was not necessary and that...
(29:02):
What made that judge think that he was okay?
I don't know if it was because he had finished his like 28 days.
I have no idea.
So we had hit jury trial February, 2022.
This is now August, September, 2022.
So he's done his 28 days in custody, his 30 days house arrest.
(29:23):
He's working on his community service.
So according to the justice system, he's rehabilitated.
And not one person ever called me.
and asked me like, what do you think he needs?
Was there drugs involved?
There wasn't.
Sometimes I wish that there was because then there's a reason, right?
Not just that you're crazy and like you had so much hate inside you that this is how youhad to act to people.
(29:47):
But I just think it's crazy even now that not one person called and asked me any questionabout like what he needed.
And I remember.
After that, it was that weekend that I was supposed to send the kids with him for the veryfirst time.
And I knew that they were going into a house with his new girlfriend and her daughter.
And I know the dynamic is going to be off.
(30:08):
Like, I'm nervous about it.
And
How do the kids feel about going?
So anxious, the older two, the younger one not so much because at this point she when weleft and when all of this went down she was like four almost five.
So she knows like she would make random comments all the time.
I remember I was in the car with my mom one time and I think one of her coworkers was inthe car and my daughter randomly out of nowhere was like, mom do you remember that one
(30:34):
time that dad hit you in the nose and it was bleeding?
And I was like, uh huh.
do!
I do remember!
And so I think that was her way of processing it, is just like as random thoughts and shewould just say it.
And that is still her to this day.
Whatever is in her mind, you will know it.
And so I think that it was just things like that, that we were all kind of trying to, andI didn't know what she was gonna say when she goes there for the weekend.
(30:57):
Is she gonna say something that's gonna make him mad?
Because I let her say whatever she wants and I'm not ever gonna get mad at her for that.
That's not going to be the same reaction she gets.
So I remember...
um
We set pickup location at a police station because I don't feel comfortable.
I need some sort of security, you know?
So I remember I sent the kids that weekend and it felt awful.
(31:23):
Like it felt so.
I don't know, just unfair to them, unfair to the situation.
I don't know.
It's so crazy that the judge didn't at least say like that the kids could call you duringthe weekend just to check in.
and they had their cell phones that I provided and they kept and like I said the one thingthat was really hard too is My therapist told me you know send the things that they
(31:48):
absolutely need But don't send like a bunch of clothes and things like it's his job toprovide that now You have busted your butt for the last year and a half
to get all of these things for them, you're not gonna send them and have them forget themat his house.
I couldn't afford to replace them.
I was working an office manager job making $18 an hour trying to support three kids andpay rent.
(32:09):
I couldn't afford to do that and I felt bad because in my head I'm not giving my kids whatthey need.
And I talked to my older daughter about it and I was like, is why.
I want you to bring underwear, want you to bring socks, I want you to bring toothbrushes.
We went through and I didn't send them with nothing.
But I also was like,
Absolutely not like yeah, I was just frustrated.
Mm-hmm.
(32:29):
I feel like I rights to be frustrated But like it there who knows how to handle thatright, you know
You don't know.
You're right.
Right.
Now, I think that that's very fair, especially if your therapist is saying to deal with itlike that.
Well, just knowing how he is, right?
And I feel like it was me setting boundaries really early on, not knowing how long I wasgoing to co-parent with him and not knowing what was going to be expected of me and
(32:55):
knowing he had taken advantage of me the whole entire time we were together.
And if I gave any part of anything, he's going to grab it and run.
So I understood it was just really hard.
And that's hard to explain to kids.
Yes.
But he had to be responsible for something.
Go get your kids some clothes.
Get them what they need.
You would think.
(33:16):
Yeah.
Um, so I remember after I, my attorney told me, I was like, I hated all of that.
Like none of that felt fair.
She's like, well, you got awarded money, just be happy.
And I was like, literally don't even care.
Like, and I knew you're not, I had set up a case with like our state ORS where it wascollecting money from him, but it was never consistent.
(33:39):
It was always random.
Sometimes it was a hundred dollars.
Sometimes it was $300.
Yeah.
No, he was.
But at divorce, when we went to trial, he was not.
And so they had to impute him, I think is the word.
I don't even know if that's the correct word, at minimum wage, which is $7.25 an hour inthe state of Utah.
(34:03):
And so I argued, and I was like, that is bull crap.
Give me one place that pays $7.25 an hour.
McDonald's pays $15.
So I brought pictures.
So they ended up
upping it to like $9.80 an hour or something.
So ORS still only ordered a
have been what he's capable of making, you know?
um So they ordered him $479 a month for three children.
(34:29):
And I was like, okay, like what does that pay for?
Please tell me.
Oh, I mean, whatever, right?
And knowing that like maybe I get some, maybe I don't, that was never a consistent thing.
That was not what I worried.
So.
um
I'm sending my kids every other weekend.
(34:50):
He's supposed to get them on a weekday, but at this point he's living like an hour awayfrom us.
And so I don't even remember how I think for a while he came down and did like he wouldcome and get him and go to a park or something like that.
And um at this point I am done dating.
(35:11):
I am avoiding all of it.
I have a friend and
all boys love her and we had fun.
I was just like the little sidekick, right?
That would just wiggle behind her, you know?
And I was working as an office manager at a flight school.
I remember one day this guy started coming Oh, at a flight school?
(35:31):
Okay.
And I remember I was in the car with her because we driving out to our maintenance hangerand I saw this guy and he's walking, he's taking the garbage out.
I was like, he is cute.
And so we drive over and we find out that he's the new chief pilot of another flightschool that is at um Provo Airport was where we were based.
(35:52):
And I remember like we stopped, we said hi.
And I remember I stalked him on social media later that night, but he had a girlfriend atthe time and I was OK.
It's fine.
And so we would see each other randomly.
But like it just, you know, we didn't ever really talk.
Well, then I did my first candlelight walk for the refuge.
And we were so lucky to have this motorcycle club called Rogue Souls show up and theyshowed up in force.
(36:18):
It was incredible.
Like I still get chills talking about it.
We had our little speech and then the motorcycle club rolled up in front of the Capitolwith purple lights and purple bandanas and everything.
And it was just so cool.
And so in, thank you, I agreed to do a photo shoot for them after because that in my pastlife, that was...
But I did.
(36:39):
And so we did this such a cool photo shoot where we had like fire and it was just so funlike they were just the coolest humans that supported me in the coolest way and so I
posted these on social media so this guy that I thought was so cute that took out thegarbage messages me on social media and he's like these pictures are so cool like why are
you working at a flight school and I was like well I was like that's complicated Let's goto lunch and talk about it.
(37:03):
Well my mind I'm thinking that
he wants the inn to meet my friend because that's always what happens.
I'm like, yeah, come over to the office.
Like, let's talk about it.
Right.
So he comes over to her office and I think we both left.
I thought he was hitting on her.
He thought he was hitting on me.
We planned a lunch, but it was all three of us and it was very convoluted.
(37:28):
I remember after he messaged me and he was like, I'm totally fine to go to lunch with allyou guys, but what do you think about just going to lunch with me?
in.
I love that plan.
And so we started hanging out.
And at this point, uh he's a firefighter and he's a chief pilot of a flight school.
So overachiever.
And I remember I felt very connected to him very early on.
(37:49):
He was very supportive of like my board meetings and just a really cool human.
I felt like very safe with him.
And my divorce had just been finalized about a month later or a month previous, sorry.
And I remember
I kind of felt like we were gonna date.
Like, it kind of felt like we were headed that way, but I was scared.
(38:10):
And I, so I said, I'm like, okay, like if you feel like you wanna be with me, I'm justgonna give you all of the information.
Like this is- No, I'm not really super, like I'm doing events and I'm doing things, butI'm not, I don't really talk about it outside of that.
um So I kind of fire-posed him.
(38:31):
That's what I did.
We really laugh at that, but I just-
kind of said like this is what we've gone through.
This is the situation I'm in right now.
This is like I just kind of gave him all of the facts and I said I'm like you know if youmeet my kids my youngest will probably call you dad very early on because I knew she was
not being forced but I didn't know exactly she was being asked to call the girlfriend momwhen she was going so I knew those words were confusing in her mind and I
(39:00):
It would be natural for her.
to do it to him and I didn't want him to be intimidated by that right I can't controlwhat's happening there but I know how it's going to change her here and so I just didn't
want him to be intimidated and he was like nope I'm good and I was like okay so I let him
sure you still want to talk to me?
Because I had kind of just come to a resolve that I'm like, okay, I'm a single mom.
(39:22):
I have three kids.
Like I've got this ex-husband who is insane.
Another fun fact that I totally missed, but I wanted to bring up.
I remember the first weekend that I sent them with him.
I remember asking my victim's advocate, like, okay, he had all of these guns when he wasarrested.
I know he still has them.
What happens now?
(39:42):
And she said to me, the state of Utah doesn't take them from him.
He has to voluntarily surrender them or get caught using them.
Because he's a restricted person.
He can't have a weapon.
But because he owned them prior to his arrest, they said it's too dangerous for them totake the weapons from him.
So they won't go take them.
So I had to send my children to his home knowing he still had that.
(40:06):
Wow, Isn't that insane?
That's crazy.
It blew my mind.
I mean, I talk about it all the time because I say all the time, it's not what you know,it's who you know.
And like I said, it's disgusting.
I can't be the only one that finds that disgusting.
If your kid was in that situation, would you just sit there and be like, okay, that'stotally fine.
Because I wasn't, I was not fine with it, but I was told I had to send my kids to that.
(40:30):
And so at this point, I'm still sending my kids to him, but I've started dating my nowhusband, but we're just dating at the time.
And he was incredible.
He was incredible to let them talk about whatever emotion they had about him.
It was really hard because I think any kid that is in a co-parenting situation has reallyunstable emotions sometimes.
(40:50):
For sure.
And our youngest was definitely having that.
When she would come back, she would lay on the floor and cry and wouldn't let me touch herand just different things, right?
I knew- Because things were probably-
sad.
And I didn't even know exactly.
just knew she was showing up at our house very differently.
And I was having a hard time, parent, because it was just breaking me down emotionally.
It was hard for me to see my kids that way.
(41:11):
And he was so amazing to just hold that space.
And I do think that probably part of his firefighter background played a part in that.
He knew how to calm down a situation and calm down them and show up for them in a way thatwas just so beautiful and effortless.
I know that that was one of the things that made me fall in love with him first because hejust was so safe for all of us.
(41:37):
Right.
Are you always like waiting for the ball to drop though or something with him because ofwhat you were used to and now you have someone amazing were you like self sabotaging at
all?
Kind of I had done a lot of work on myself over that year and a half and I think because Ihad come to the place where I was like, okay I'm fine to just be single forever.
(41:57):
I had I had kind of known what I wanted in my next relationship and I knew
the things that I really hated about my previous one and things that how I hated how Ishowed up, right?
I wasn't great at setting boundaries.
I wasn't great at talking about my emotions.
Clearly my communication struggled.
So I really wanted to focus on all those things before I even considered it.
(42:18):
And I did think about dating a little bit.
There were a few dates, but I just knew I wasn't ready.
Like I could feel that things were triggering inside of me.
And I was like, my kids have been through so much.
My job right now is to just be there for them and working full time and trying to be therefor them emotionally was
pulling me in so many directions.
And so I just, I had done a lot of work, but I think because of that, I did have momentswhere I did feel like I was trying to self-sabotage, but as soon as I felt that, I just
(42:46):
went to him I'm like, this is what I'm feeling.
This is why I'm feeling it.
This is what I like, whatever it was.
you from the get-go from the get-go.
Oh, it felt really intimidating at first and uncomfortable because it's just not somethingI was ever used to even.
You know, before, I think that even like a generational thing, you know, with my parents,you just don't talk about it.
(43:08):
If you don't talk about it, it didn't happen, right?
And so it just was something that was so foreign to me, but he was always so good at it.
And I knew, I know he was incredible.
And so we're still struggling.
He's falling in love with my kids.
My kids and I move in with him in like December.
So we dated for like two months and I was like, okay, like we're.
(43:29):
35 years like we know we're gonna be together this one.
We had gone through enough trials and all of this He's falling in love with my kids.
We're sending them over to the ex-husband's house That was difficult um Through thisperiod we're getting texts from the oldest and she's like they're not coming out of their
bedroom There's no food in the house.
There's like half of a muffin and things that we need to like cook and she's like I justdon't like I don't know what to do
(43:55):
The youngest was waking up and having nightmares in the middle of the night, but he wasn'twaking up to take care of her It was the oldest that was taking care of her which was
triggering so many things for her and all of them were just struggling and So he myhusband now while we're dating so he's I guess my boyfriend which sounds weird when you're
He's like, me send you guys food like all that I'll door-dash it and she was like don'the'll be mad like She wouldn't even let us send food to the house because she was so
(44:21):
scared of his reactions
Do you, were they using or anything?
don't know.
I mean, I could have my suspicions, but I don't ever feel like that's my place to talk onit because I don't know.
It was never like, that was always the vibe.
You always had to take care of him and his needs.
That's right.
(44:41):
So I knew it wasn't shocking to me.
It was what I was required to do.
But it's just putting pressure on the kids.
And so I'm going to my victim's advocate and I'm like, there's got to be something we cando with this.
This is awful.
And ah so we filed for a protective order and or one of them there's a protective orderrestraining order.
(45:03):
We filed for one of them and we got told fear of abuse is not abuse.
They rejected it.
And so I immediately applied for the other one because at this point I have learned wellenough that if I want anything in the justice system, there's always a way to get there.
You just have to find the right holding.
Exactly.
So I'm filing which is crazy dumb.
It's the stupidest thing on the planet.
So I'm filing this other one.
(45:23):
They approve it.
So this is probably um January-ish of 2023.
At this point, I'm engaged to my now husband and the kids are not going over with himanymore.
There's more dynamic to that, but again, not my place to speak on.
(45:45):
tell you about it privately later.
We'll talk about that at lunch.
um So a couple of months go by and I am obviously, we have an attorney because you can'tjust, I mean you could, but it's confusing, right?
So at this point we have paid thousands and thousands of dollars to keep kids safe, whichis stupid to me.
That is absolutely crazy.
(46:07):
um And he calls our attorney and he says, I want to give up my parental rights to thekids.
And he said...
out of nowhere, like it wasn't leading up to that or?
I again, I kind of knew that we were gonna end there because that's what his birth daddid, if you remember back to the beginning of the story.
(46:29):
And so in my mind, I always kind of knew that we would probably end there.
I just didn't know the path that it would take, right?
And so at this point, he's saying to our attorney, the kids are being told all these liesabout me and for their mental wellbeing, I need to step away.
I'm just gonna let her new husband adopt them.
(46:51):
Okay.
so this presents a really like difficult situation as a mom because multiple emotions arecoming up, right?
A, I feel like that's probably what's best for them as far as like a stable environmentand a stable household and not going back and forth and all of the things.
And I also know how I feel thinking about my dad calling and saying, I don't want to beyour dad anymore.
(47:18):
And that wrecks my soul.
And I didn't.
know how to present it.
knew that that was what I wanted.
It like it felt really crappy.
because you didn't want them not to feel wanted.
No, they already did.
They had already been through so much.
And I knew getting through it, like if we could get to the other side, we're going to bebetter in the end.
(47:39):
going through that, like how do you go and tell your kid, like what, how do you even workthat?
Like, where do you start?
And so I remember I talked, and he was my fiance at the time, and he was like, absolutely,like I will adopt him.
Let's do it.
Like he was all gung-ho.
He was ready.
I knew that that was what was best for them.
That was going to provide
a much more stable father figure for them, stable household.
(48:02):
I mean, let's get real, even in a healthy co-parenting situation, bouncing back and forthbetween two households is hard.
That was alleviating that for them.
But again, we're in the situation that just feels impossible.
Emotionally, it feels impossible.
So I remember I text my therapist and I was like, I need to...
(48:25):
It was totally inappropriate, but I was...
I was I didn't know what to do and I remember it she called me and we talked it out andshe was like no like we've talked about it's not your job to defend his actions or defend
what he's choosing like it is your job to deliver the information in an age-appropriateway that's your job so we took the older two kids and we asked them we said do you want to
(48:50):
be adopted we gave them the choice because I mean
Our choice had been taken from us.
All of our choices had been taken.
They were sad, obviously.
That's a hard emotional thing to face, but I think that they had felt so accepted andloved by him that it counteracted that in some- That rejection.
(49:13):
You know what I mean?
We start going through the adoption process, which was a whole other burden.
It just took forever.
It was really difficult because he wouldn't sign a paper saying that he was giving upparental rights and my new husband could adopt them.
(49:34):
We had to file all these different paperwork.
And at this point, I had paid thousands and thousands of dollars and I'm like, okay, Ican't do this anymore.
This isn't sustainable to take care of them and pay this.
So I was like, okay, I'm going to try and figure it out.
So we stopped.
Our attorney dropped us.
She was like, if you can't give me $2,000 this week, it was two weeks before Christmas.
(49:55):
And she was like, if you can't give us $2,000 this week, then we're done.
And I was like, I can't.
Like if you can give me till January, like I can, but there's no way.
And within an hour, she had filed paperwork with the court and I was like, okay.
So I was like, okay, well, I guess like.
We're just going to figure it out.
at this point, we're planning our wedding, and we're trying to do all of that and juststill live life, right?
(50:17):
Not focus on the negative stuff so much.
I'm still sitting on the board for the refuge.
I mean, is good, all things considered.
The kids are starting to get more stable.
They're getting involved in school, which was not anything that they had before.
So we finally.
(50:39):
get married, which was amazing, and shortly after I got pregnant, I, we were trying to getpregnant.
My husband did not have any kids of his own, and so we decided like that would, hedeserves that.
He showed up as the most incredible dad to my kids, and so I got pregnant and it ended upbeing twins.
(51:01):
we have five children.
and it is insane.
I'm sure it is so much fun and they they turn one on the eighth.
So is that so little?
Yeah, they're like almost one.
We fly home and it is their birthday.
So um obviously that put a delay in adoption things because I'm trying to figure it outmyself, but I was so so sick.
(51:24):
So we were still doing things um but
We just recently on July 3rd had our final adoption hearing and he adopted that.
I know it's gonna make me cry.
He adopted them and it was so beautiful.
And ironically enough, my ex-husband's birth dad was at the adoption.
What?
(51:45):
I know, I gotta get that.
He's still apart.
So I told you that he was one of the only ones that kind of were let in the house thatlast year that I was with him.
And once everything separated,
He still stayed in contact with me and I definitely did not trust that relationship atfirst that felt uncomfortable and I kept him at an arm's length for at least a year.
(52:05):
Well, and he had told me he's like, I'm not talking to him.
Like I don't agree with what he did to you guys.
I'm so sorry.
And again, I knew he wasn't in constant contact with him.
It had been a very on and off relationship throughout his whole life.
So I had kind of believed what he had to say, but he was like, I just care about you.
I care about the kids.
I just want to be there for you guys.
And so
(52:25):
I would ask the kids, do you want to see him?
And they were like, yeah, out in public, we can do things.
And so I would invite them to sports games or things if we were out by their house, whereit wasn't so uncomfortable or it's direct conversation.
And throughout the years, he's just been so patient and been amazing with the kids.
He showed up and it was just, for me, it was really beautiful closure.
(52:48):
It sucks.
It sucks that we ended there, but I'm so grateful for the life that we have now.
Like the ability that we have to be loved by someone because I think a lot of people turnoff to love after they've been betrayed by someone that's supposed to love.
So.
or you sabotage everything after and everything just all the trauma
(53:11):
Yes.
So now I do a lot of things, but the refuge is just so important to me.
They saved my life.
They saved my life.
And I think you hear about it all the time.
The shelter was full when my abuser was arrested.
That happens all over the place, right?
Yeah, it does.
And so I was lucky enough that the refuge, I think it was about seven years ago, they wereone of 11 programs that started using VOCA funds.
(53:36):
to help victims get back into apartments.
And I was one of the people to receive that.
So they were able to like pay my apartment deposit.
They knew I had a job.
They knew I had a way to sustain it.
I just needed that little help.
Like, so I know for example, last year our shelter served like 170 people, but had to turnaway 450.
(53:56):
Isn't that insane?
And so it's just crazy.
Right now we're working on...
um saving up money to build a new shelter that will dramatically increase.
Right now, I think we only have 25 beds and the new shelter will be like a hundred andsomething.
It will be severely different and so big.
Wow.
Give survivors a chance to just feel safe for a minute.
And just think those numbers are only the people that are asking for help.
(54:20):
Right.
And there's so many people that don't.
And so just knowing all of those things, right?
It's heartbreaking.
And I'm just so grateful that my situation played out the way that it did, because I knowthat is why I was successful.
And so I kind of looked back at my situation, and I was like, OK, I met him when I was ateenager.
I met him when I knew everything.
And so uh my mom works at a high school now, and I went to her social worker, and I waslike, I want to talk to high schoolers.
(54:45):
I want to talk to them.
And I started talking in his classes.
And I had the Refuge Prevention Team come with me.
And they had already been presenting in health classes.
But we kind of implemented my story into it, where we start just telling them when I methim and how it looked.
And not in a scary way, because it wasn't scary.
I loved him.
And I was in love with him.
And I thought I knew what love was and all of the things.
(55:08):
And so I just went, because I feel like so often when domestic violence is spoken about,it's a number or a statistic.
And it's not.
relatable to a human or a person.
And so I started going around to high schools and speaking at high schools.
And just recently, before I came here, I hosted my very first event to the public wherejust anyone could come.
Because I had a couple people that had asked, do you ever do it where I can just bring mydaughter?
(55:32):
And I was like, well, I've only ever done it in closed classes, but why not?
And we had like 60, sorry, I'm going to cry.
We had like 65 people show up.
And I was just amazed.
I felt so honored and so blessed that they would just show up.
We had them show up.
I hope to do so many more.
(55:52):
And now that the adoption is finalized, I'm hoping to start a podcast of my own just totalk to others.
feel like overcoming trauma is so difficult.
And I feel like it just changes how you show up in the world.
It changes how you show up in relationships.
I know how it feels.
so alone.
So alone.
And that's why like your story, all these stories, it's so important.
Yes.
Because then people are like, wait.
(56:13):
I can do this.
Someone else has done this.
Yes.
Yeah.
So I just like, I know it's changed how we parent.
It changes how I am with my husband.
It changes our relationship and how we communicate.
And I just think it's beautiful how trauma can become something beautiful after, you know?
So now.
If you think there's so many people, like we've said a hundred times how you felt, I havefelt like that before.
(56:40):
You don't think that anyone would understand or could relate.
Made to feel like that, that you are so loved.
So now nothing but up, just hoping to be a really incredible mom and
I think you already are.
Thank you.
Yes.
Thank you.
And you're setting an amazing example.
Thank so much.
(57:00):
hope so.
It terrifies me that now my oldest daughter is dating and I hope she always feels like shecan come and talk to me.
So far so good.
Well, I think again, that's why our situation was crappy, but I'm so grateful that she wasin it the way she is because now we have a connection that we wouldn't have had otherwise.
I hate how we got it, but I love the connection that we have.
(57:26):
He's like out of the picture doesn't harass you guys anything now.
I mean, they still make posts on social media about how I'm crazy and about how I made itup and whatever.
So that still happens, but I keep them blocked.
I hear about it randomly.
I know that he's still in the state of Utah.
He only lives about an hour north of us, last I heard.
So I try to always kind of know where he's at if I can.
(57:48):
Cause it makes me anxious.
I just want to avoid that city at all costs.
I have a friend that lives in the city he's in now.
And so I know when I go see her, I go to her house and I go home.
I don't stop at gas stations.
I don't stop at the grocery.
I don't know how I would react.
I can guess that I would probably freeze and panic as much as I want to say I would getall...
(58:09):
would probably panic and I don't want to figure that out.
No.
Good.
It's better to avoid it.
So I just live my life and raise my baby.
and just telling your story and putting it out how you just said about the 60 some peoplethat showed up.
mean, didn't that like just makes your heart like sing.
It was incredible too because it was so many of my daughter's friends that are liketeenagers that like I was so passionate about them hearing and they were all so sweet like
(58:38):
so many of them messaged me after and were just so kind and like they were like no like Ihad one girl come up and she was like I realize I have so many toxic relationships in my
life and I was like I'm so sorry but thank you for coming yeah and so my next goal is todo one that boys want to come to because I don't think it's exclusive to girls this one
just happened to play out that the you know the marketing
(58:59):
for the event was mothers and daughters.
Because I think it's important to have a mother, especially when we're talking abouttrauma.
I mean, we don't talk about specific events of abuse, but I talk about what myrelationship was like, what it led to, and why they should pay attention to me.
We talk about him wanting to date other girls when we started, and how it progressedthrough our relationship.
(59:19):
Because you can see he was boiling the crap, boiling the lobsters out of it.
It's like you can see it.
Now looking back, I would have never admitted to it in the moment.
But I, yeah.
So I telling the story in that way.
And it might make your light bulb go out for a lot of people that are in the samesituation.
That's what's beautiful.
(59:41):
My gosh, I'm so proud of you.
It's inspiration.
I love that you were able to come on here and tell all this.
beautiful.
I'm having so much fun out here.
I'm definitely coming back.
Yes, natural for sure.
It's so much fun.
Yeah.
So fun.
is.
And I'll make sure it adds all your stuff, like the refuge, everything, you know, in thedescription.
(01:00:04):
oh So then that way, you know, if God forbid, if there's somebody else in Utah and they dolisten to your story.
Yeah, well that's the thing.
I just remember feeling like I had no choice like I felt like I had nowhere to go and likeas much as you want to go and like it was great that I was that I had a friend that she
came and picked me up but that's not where you heal.
That's not where you find yourself.
(01:00:25):
You need you have been stripped of every part of who you are and you have to be given thatback and I just I wouldn't be who I am today without that.
Wow, I love it.
We'll make sure everybody has access to it too.
you so, much.
And all the things you're doing.
I know I can't keep my I can't keep still it doesn't help that my husband's gone half themonth He was gone for training when I had my idea for my mother-daughter event and he
(01:00:51):
called me He was on a flight and he called me and I was like, honey And I was like I'mplanning an event and he's like, okay, he's like, when are we doing it?
And I was like, well, I think we're gonna do
before we go to Nashville and he's like, that a smart idea?
I'm like, yes.
Absolutely.
Why not?
And so it was so funny and it ended up that he did have to leave for work.
(01:01:11):
They flew him out for work and he wasn't home for my event, but that's okay.
He is here.
He's good.
He got to come with me to Nashville.
So that was all that happened.
All right, well thank you.
Hi and welcome back to Beyond the Monsters.
Today I have Lyndsey again for part two.
you
Okay, Lyndsey, I think we should start from when you guys are going to court.
(00:24):
Okay.
Jury trial.
Okay.
Let's start from there.
rough rough time to start.
That's a rough starting point.
So going to jury trial, obviously that whole process was really difficult because I hadjust left a situation where I had been made to question every decision I was making.
(00:45):
I didn't trust the world.
I had been held prisoner essentially for a whole year.
So leaving my apartment felt really scary.
And like I had mentioned before, I was so lucky to have been put in contact with therefuge and they got me into an apartment where my kids and I kind of started regaining our
confidence and who we were.
And I think that was huge.
(01:05):
It was really difficult because I had to let him know where the kids were.
And because he was released right after his arrest, he would drive our apartment complex.
And there was an act of protective order against him.
But every time I tried to enforce it, they would tell me that unless I could get a clearpicture of his license plate, I couldn't prove that it was him, essentially, it was
(01:25):
impossible to enforce.
And so I just constantly felt unsafe.
And I was told.
intimidating you.
absolutely.
Because obviously he knows you're going to eventually see him.
Well, and I was told that custody had not been set for our children because we hadn't goneto divorce yet.
And so if he takes the kids, police aren't going to go and get the kids from him.
(01:46):
You have to fight.
Because there's no paternity set.
So they're not going to sit and take it.
So I was scared to send my daughter out to play on the park or have my kids walk home fromschool because I knew he was still not working.
And I'm having to work full time because I'm having to provide and pay rent and do all ofthe things that normal adults do.
And so it just, I
(02:07):
was constantly living in fear.
And that was really, really hard.
em I think that it was almost a blessing in disguise that it did take so long to get tojury trial because it gave me time to kind of get my bearings and figure out what I needed
and what my place was in it because that was what frustrated me so much the first time wasthat no one could identify what my part was in it.
(02:32):
And so it gave me that time.
to identify where I stood and how I wanted to show up in the situation because beingthrown into anything with the justice system is terrifying and confusing and it happened
so fast.
And so because of COVID, everything was just paused.
So we were having hearings and it sucked.
(02:53):
It sucked so bad to have us all hold on to that day.
And it was hard too, because I knew that every detail of that day was gonna bescrutinized.
And so I couldn't.
forget it and I couldn't let myself forget it.
And I couldn't, it was so hard.
Every time I tried to sleep, that's what I saw.
And every time it was just hard and it was hard to have people understand the emotionaltoll that that.
(03:18):
So um like I said, I think he tried to push that because he thought it would intimidate meand I wouldn't go through with it.
On top of that, the kids didn't want to go.
And I think he knew I was the one dealing with the emotions on the back end of that.
I was the one where they were like, I don't want to do this.
And we were all in therapy, which was huge for us.
(03:42):
We couldn't have done it otherwise because my therapist saved every...
She was my person, right?
She was my sounding board.
And it was really hard because I had had therapists that weren't great.
um Right when I left him, I had gone to a therapist and I remember she told me that I wasgoing to be investigated by CPS because I went back to an abuser and took my kids back
(04:06):
into an abusive situation knowingly and that was me putting my kids in danger and so now Iwas going to be investigated.
I never went back to her.
I was terrified because I was like, okay, I was trying to make my family work.
I don't understand.
And it was just so scary for me to trust anyone and try and get them to understand what Iwas.
(04:26):
And I'm like, you're therapist.
Like you're supposed to understand this.
And she just made me feel like I had done everything.
Absolutely.
And I had already felt that.
Like, thank you.
I You're supposed to not feel that way, lady.
So when I moved, em I found a new therapist down where I was at, and she was incredible.
(04:47):
Like, she was the one, I remember one time she told me, she's like, you know your opinionsdon't have to be fact based, right?
And I was like, what?
And she's like, no, you can just have an opinion.
And I was like, I don't understand.
Yeah, because you weren't allowed to.
I had to defend every thought I had.
So I think therapy was huge for us and just like being able to kind of regain who we were.
(05:11):
so whenever the kids would come to me and say, I don't want to do this, like I don't wantto go to court rightfully.
So who does?
I don't either.
Right.
And I think she helped me a lot when she's like, okay, like, no, you don't have to defendhis actions.
Like you can say, you know, I don't want to go either, but unless dad holds himselfaccountable.
(05:33):
this is what we have to do because that's the situation we've been put in.
So I didn't ever want them to feel like it was bad mouthing him.
But at the same time, they saw him.
They saw him do
Well, and the good thing is too, I would think probably you could look back and thinkthey're learning that you have consequences for behaviors.
(05:55):
and I think that was the biggest thing because I had always been the one to get him out ofthe consequences, right?
I had been the one to his back.
No one in my family knew he was dating other women.
And again, why would I advertise that?
That is humiliating for me as a wife.
So I just I had done that for years.
And I was just like, OK, like not my responsibility.
(06:15):
It's not my responsibility to defend this or get you out of it.
And so it sucked.
But it helped us stand our ground.
So we go to jury trial.
And it was a two day jury trial.
I remember asking, our trial, it was attached to the police station, the courtroom was.
And the kids had not seen him in person.
(06:36):
They had been doing once a week Zoom calls with him or twice a week or something likethat.
It was very, very little and only on Zoom.
And so I had asked the judge, I said, can the kids Zoom and talk to you or the attorney,like, do they have to come in?
They can be on property.
but can they just zoom?
Like, people come in, I will sit there, but can they just answer the questions via zoom?
(06:59):
And his attorney was like, no, absolutely not.
And he had the kids come in and testify.
And I remember they brought my son in and you could tell he was just heartbroken andintimidated.
And that's a scary environment.
it was-
they again at this point?
This was 2022 and he is almost 15 now.
(07:22):
13.
He's little.
I mean, old enough to know what's going on, but definitely not old enough for me to haveany sort of productive conversation to where he can understand really what's happening.
sit in a courtroom and there's a judge, know, these attorneys.
and like jury and it was just it's intimidating.
(07:42):
It's what you see on tv.
It looked like that and so the kids came in and I remember his attorney said do you loveyour dad and I was like of course he does like what kind of question is that and of course
that's the first question you're gonna ask him to like break him down and I remember heasked my son like what did you see and my son panicked and froze and didn't say anything.
(08:07):
Which I was nervous about, obviously.
Like, who knows what a kid is gonna do, especially sitting in front of their dad the firsttime he sees them in person.
And he just sat there and smiled at him the whole time.
Because I'm sitting there and I'm just feeling mama bear protect.
The time, the whole time.
And I'm trying not to react.
(08:28):
The city prosecutor is telling me have no reaction.
Do not react to what they're doing.
I better sit on my hands.
I better wear a mask.
And so it was the hardest thing to I feel like that's kind of where I learned to kind offind my voice again because I had to contain all of those things that I felt and wanted to
(08:49):
just scream and cry.
I had to hold all of that in because the whole story was that I did it to myself and I wascrazy and I made it up and if I showed that at all.
I was told, and I don't know if this is correct, I believe it's correct, but I was toldthat if one jury member didn't believe one part of one of his charges that he was off the
hook.
Like it was an all or nothing kind of situation.
(09:11):
And so I was just nervous.
like, that's so like, I mean, I have the pictures in my face.
I felt confident and I knew I was telling the truth.
But again, you're trying to convince random strangers that these things happened.
he's a very good manipulator.
Absolutely.
And his attorney probably was too.
Oh.
good.
Yeah.
So my daughter comes and she's on stand.
(09:33):
So she right now will turn 18 in September.
And so I don't 15 ish 16.
She gets on stand and she has a very different demeanor.
She's mad.
She's mad.
Okay.
And she's sad, but she's more mad.
She was just very blunt.
And she's like, No, this is what I saw.
(09:53):
And like she said the things she remembered are the things that she saw.
And that was hard as a mom.
I was so proud of her for facing that moment because I was scared to face that moment.
Just the fact that she had to do it.
Yeah.
And so I always wonder now like how that's gonna change how she shows up in the world andhow she shows up in relationships and you know, just her demeanor in.
(10:19):
need to keep showing up for her.
I think that's all you'll need to worry about.
She knows that.
She has someone solid.
So we go through that day of jury trial and I believe that was the day that theyquestioned me.
And the following day was the day that he was bringing his witnesses.
And his witnesses were friend that was living with us and his friend's dad that we hadgone to his house that day and my kids called him grandpa.
(10:52):
he said, yes, he was his other witness.
Okay.
They come in and of course his friend, no, I don't know.
I had headphones on and I was told that his reaction of, well, what happened was becausehe was live streaming a video game and he didn't know how to react.
Was what I was told.
(11:12):
I don't know if that's true.
I still think you're a pansy.
Do whatever you will with that, but I don't care.
So he came in, I don't know.
I was there all the time, but like,
I don't know.
And then I think at one point he said, you know, I wasn't even there that day.
So then the prosecutor brought up the body cam video and in the body cam video, he says,no, I was here.
(11:35):
had gone to lunch with my ex-girlfriend or something like that.
it just showed a really good Which was really good for our case.
Well, then the friend's dad comes in and I had no idea what to expect with this one.
Really?
Like I didn't have any clue.
And he goes on stand and
(11:55):
I mean, he always was very well-spoken.
was always well-dressed and just always carried himself well, right?
And so I was like, this could go really bad.
I don't know.
Well, he comes in and I don't even remember how they led into it.
But the city prosecutor was asking about my appearance and asking about my black eyes andleading into that.
(12:19):
And he was like, no, she looked fine.
And so the city prosecutor
popped up on the screen a picture that the police had of my black eyes and the cut acrossmy nose and he lost it.
Like, started screaming and he was like, no, she didn't look like that.
It was like a TV.
I was like, what is happening?
(12:41):
It was the weirdest thing.
Belligerent, the judge had to tell him to calm down.
And he was like, no, I saw her.
She didn't look like that.
And I was like, it was just mind blowing because I'm like.
Like then you're still trying to talk to yourself.
Don't say anything.
uh
had and it was just the weirdest.
And so I was like, okay.
(13:02):
So at this point, again, I'm feeling like things are going okay, but they haven't put himon the stand yet.
And they put him on the stand and it's the same story that you would expect.
The whole like, you know, she made it up, she's tried to leave me.
Like all the things, right?
And I'm honestly, I feel like I kind of blacked out at that point because I didn't reallycare what his excuse was.
(13:23):
I knew it wasn't gonna be the truth.
and I knew that I couldn't react to it.
So in a sense, I almost felt like I blacked out because I was like, I'm not, but I'm not,but not really.
Because I didn't, also didn't want him to feel like I was intimidated by him.
didn't want to give him that satisfaction.
was done.
And as much as I was terrified, I was like, okay, like I can do this.
(13:45):
So uh I remember we broke for the jury to deliberate and it felt like days, like.
I walked over into the police station and all the people working at the police station hadthe courtroom cameras on like watching.
And it was just like, I felt so supported and that was amazing.
(14:05):
But it was just nerve wracking to sit there and just wonder what the outcome was gonna be.
And I remember my victim's advocate was the only person that could come in the courtroomwith me.
So I couldn't have like, and at this point I was talking to my family.
We were rebuilding those relationships.
ship.
But it was slow.
It's hard when you've been betrayed by someone that's supposed to love you.
(14:26):
It's really hard to trust other people.
eh And I always feel too, when you've been through any sort of trauma, I feel like youcome to a place where it's hard to ask for help because you don't trust that it's going to
happen or when they do, it makes you feel bad or all the different things.
Did you feel like your family abandoned you during that time or did you, was it more you?
(14:47):
No.
It was definitely more me.
Like I knew my mental state and my emotional state couldn't handle any sort of perceivedrejection, if that makes sense.
So like when I would ask, hey, can you just come and sit at my house for me to sleep?
And they couldn't accommodate that.
I knew that wasn't a personal thing.
People have lives, right?
You can't come sit at my house all the time.
(15:07):
I understand that.
But they also didn't understand the importance of why I was asking.
And we never really found that middle ground.
And it was too hard for me to like ask for things and then not have them met.
it started attacking me rebuilding who I was and my worth because I had already feltworthless.
And so I was like, I just kind of cut myself off.
And that was definitely a me thing.
Like they were showing up, they were taking my kids places, like they were doing all thethings to build the relationship and I was doing what I could to show up, but my trauma
(15:34):
was just still so there.
you can only show up with what you have at that time.
So I was with my victim's advocate.
And I remember telling her, once they read the verdict, I want to leave.
I don't need to be there for whatever they say after.
Because I knew I was holding my emotions for days.
(15:56):
And I knew I was nearing the end.
And I didn't know what the verdict was going to be.
I knew they weren't giving him his sentence that day.
I just knew they were telling me whether he was guilty or not guilty.
And so I remember we walked back into the courtroom.
and he was sitting there and I remember he turned back and looked at me and I don't evenknow what the look on my face was.
(16:17):
I felt so scared because in my mind, I knew what had happened, but like what happens ifthey don't believe me?
know, like what?
And we sat down and the jury person stood up and they read the thing and found him guilty.
(16:39):
on all five charges.
And I remember I instantly stood up.
I didn't even give myself time to like take a breath.
It was like up and out.
And I don't know if he turned back and looked.
don't like, I was just out of there.
And I remember I went and sat in the police station and I had the officers tell me when hehad left the parking lot because I didn't know how long they were gonna take.
(17:04):
I needed a minute to process everything.
I just felt numb.
I was gonna say, what were you feeling?
Absolutely nothing at that moment.
I think I was scared too, because at this point, he's still free.
He still gets to drive off and go somewhere.
And now I have, in his mind, I'm the
that ruins his knows what's going on in his mind.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(17:24):
And so I'm grateful, but terrified and all the things, Well, and also knowing too, like,I've got to go home and tell my kids, right?
Because they're sitting there waiting.
And what kid wants to know, your dad was found guilty of domestic violence and like, Idon't know, just horrible crappy situation, So it happens.
(17:53):
I think it was about a month later that they did his sentencing and I remember reading myvictim's impact statement and that letter was a difficult one to write.
I remember this one I understood much better than the first one that I wrote during a sixweek time period and I think I wanted it to be made very clear that this was not the like
(18:16):
I knew this was the first time he was in front of a jury and I knew this was the firsttime he was convicted but
I wanted it to be made so clear that this was years that I was living with.
This was not a one day thing.
This was years.
And I just wanted someone to know that before everything happened.
And I remember they gave him the opportunity to come on and give his, I don't even knowwhat they call, I guess an impact, same after mine.
(18:44):
He came on after.
And I remember I was just sitting in the corner, like, crying, like, after I was done.
Because it's like one of those things that you just like, you hold yourself together forthe moment that you need to, and then you're just done.
Like, there's nothing else you can give.
And I remember just hearing him saying that he understood how this was going to impact himand how he couldn't take his kids on field trips now because he's been, he has a record.
(19:10):
like,
That's what he was worried about.
all he said, like the whole time.
And it was mind blowing.
It was mind blowing.
at that point, humble your.
Right, but was it really like it was mind-blowing at the time, but I shows up absolutely
at this point, like humble yourself enough so that you don't have a sentence so that youcan like, but no, he wants everyone to believe and do it.
(19:37):
So he's got to stay the victim.
And I mean, no, wasn't shocking, but yeah, a little bit.
Is really still that's like at what point?
uh right.
I guess just not clicking.
Not at all.
Not at all.
And so the judge came on, and he was amazing.
He was like, I don't hear any remarks from you.
Like, this is ridiculous.
(19:57):
Like, you only talked about how this has affected you.
You didn't acknowledge your children.
You didn't acknowledge this woman who stood by you.
You didn't acknowledge any of them.
And so the judge.
mean, what he said made me feel better than the actual punishment sentence, whatever itwas.
ended up giving him 28 days in custody and then 30 days house arrest.
(20:22):
But keep in mind, he's not working still.
So tell me what kind of punishment house arrest is.
Maybe tell him to get a job.
That would have been more punishment.
Yeah.
And then they wanted like 20 hours of community service.
And I came back and I was like, are you joking?
Like I work 40 hours in a week to take care of the children that he does not support.
So why don't we do a little better than that?
(20:43):
It's still a misdemeanor?
Yeah.
All five were misdemeanors, which is crazy to me because now I look back.
So I go and speak to high schools now, which we'll get to that part in the story.
But I tell them in the state of Utah, it is a higher charge for them to have a nakedpicture of themselves on their cell phone that they never sent to anyone than he got.
(21:04):
That is a more severe charge.
And I mean, granted, that's terrifying, right?
Who wants teenagers to have that?
But also mind blowing.
that them to have a picture of their very own body that they don't even send to anyone isa more severe charge than he got for nearly killing me.
That's mind-blowing to me.
No, just broken.
(21:25):
The whole system is always broken.
Everyone talks about it.
But I think until you live it, you don't really understand what that means or what thatlooks like.
yeah, great.
It's such a great time, right?
So shortly after jury trial concluded, the Refuge Utah, so this was a nonprofitorganization that helped me and my children, reached out to me and asked if I would be
(21:48):
interested in sitting on their board and being a voice for survivors.
And I was like, absolutely.
I was so grateful.
also felt a little bit like under qualified.
I my first meeting I went and I had joined with two other members and one like worked at abank and one worked at a college and they came to me and I just didn't really understand
(22:09):
my place and I didn't I mean I had been a stay-at-home mom and then I was kind of findingmyself you know and so they came to me and they're like introduce yourself and I was like
um I'm a stay-at-home mom and I'm an office manager of a flight school and I have threekids and that
And I was like, and so they were like, welcome.
were all so.
Yeah, they go about the meeting and like I still have not said like I'm a survivor nothingright No one knows this outside of the director of the refuge and so they get to this
(22:36):
point where they're talking about something about the website and what they think is worthspending money on and so I kind of I'm like, okay Well, I feel something about this I have
an opinion and I remembered my therapist telling me that opinions didn't have to be fact Iraised my hand and I was like well and so I said I'm like this is my opinion about this
and this is why I have it
And that was kind of like the beginning of me finding like where I fit in that world,right?
(23:01):
And so that was kind of like where I think I started figuring out what this was going tolook like for me.
And I always knew that what I went through had to have a purpose.
It's going to live inside me forever.
There's not going to be anything I can do to change that.
But if what is inside me has something that I'm using it for that's more beautiful than
(23:25):
it was dark, then I think that that's amazing.
And that was kind of where that shift started.
So I started going to board meetings.
I started going to their candlelight walks.
They asked me to speak at their candlelight walk.
And it was just like a 10 or 15 minute speech.
But my kids got to come.
(23:46):
And it was just beautiful.
It was perfect and everything that I wanted it to be.
You're probably starting to make friends in there.
Like everything was just kind of start it was still scary, but like I was starting to feellike things made sense At this point.
I'm still married to him because We couldn't go to divorce He was asking for 50-50 custodyof the kids and I was like you are delusional like absolutely not I'm not just giving in
(24:10):
to you.
That is what I have done for 18 years.
I am done right so no so Like I had mentioned I was I was
represented by a free service.
It's called Utah Legal Services.
And they were always so nice.
But um by the time we got to divorce, I think this was like my fourth or fifth attorneywith them.
(24:31):
And so it had just essentially been a file that had been passed down until we got totrial, which fair, right?
They have so many cases.
I don't expect special treatment.
But again, I wish that it had been respected a little bit more because that's my life.
This document is what the rest of my life will be based off of.
And I don't feel like that ever got portrayed to me, if that makes sense.
(24:53):
I got a call the night before, and she was like, I'm just reading your file, and this isoutrageous.
And I'm like, yeah, I know.
Thank you for the validation.
And so I just remember going in feeling a little anxious and a little nervous.
ah The only thing I had gone in asking for was therapy reintroduction for the kids.
(25:13):
Because they hadn't seen him in person at this point.
They had testified in jury trial, not against him, but just to what they saw.
That's kind of a hard thing when I say that.
That feels awful, because it wasn't against him.
It was just testified.
But I knew that they felt anxious to see him.
And so I was like, feel like therapy reintroduction is normal.
(25:35):
So I said, I'm like, they already have a therapist.
They're already going.
It's already covered by insurance.
I would just like him to come down and meet with.
individually, each of them with their therapist.
And when the therapist says, okay, we're good, then he can have whatever parent time isset today.
But until the therapist signs off, that's what I feel would be best for my children.
These are my reasons.
Okay, which seems fair, more than fair.
(25:58):
The judge turned to me and told me that I was petty, that I needed to be a betterco-parent.
I was shocked.
Uh-huh.
They had all of it there, but according to the court, guess, once a case is like done andtried, it's done.
That doesn't mean that her field or- She made this even more fun.
(26:21):
Protective order is still in place.
He has his new girlfriend with him that, I mean, again, not shocking that she's with him,fine, whatever, but like hard to like,
Right?
Right.
He's his own attorney at this point because his mom is not paying for his attorneyanymore.
So the judge let him call me to the stand and question me.
(26:44):
And I remember turning to the attorney, this one's gonna make me cry.
I remember turning to the attorney and I was like, I can't do this.
Like don't make me do this.
there's a protective order, like can't that stop this?
And she asked the judge and the judge was like, there's a bailiff here, there's peoplehere, she's safe.
I want her stamp.
And I had to go and sit there.
(27:06):
Give a shit about emotionally what that could do or anything.
not even a little bit.
And I had to sit there and he walked right up to the stand and looked me square in theface and knew every word to say, every phrase to say, just he knew every trigger that I
had.
And I had to just sit there and answer questions in the most polite, kind way because Ihad just been told that I was petty.
(27:32):
And I remember...
kind of things did he ask you?
m
I just felt terrified.
Like I froze because I was like, whatever reaction I have right now, this judge is he'sjudging me based on my reactions.
And I knew that at this point.
And so I was just so scared that I was going to say the wrong thing, answer a questionincorrectly, have the wrong face.
(27:52):
I was terrified.
And so obviously, he's representing himself.
He doesn't know all the things.
He's not submitting paperwork correctly.
So now he's sitting on the stand showing the judge
text message screenshots I guess that we didn't even see because he never actuallysubmitted them appropriately and him and the judge are just talking on the stand and I'm
like can we stop this like this doesn't feel like it's going okay and she's like he'sgonna bury himself just let it go and I
(28:19):
attorney said this.
And I'm like, okay, and I don't know, like, I have no idea, right?
And so I'm sitting.
used to him being master manipulator that talks his way through anything.
And she would not shut it down.
So we get to the end and the judge brings up like, we haven't talked about alimony.
(28:40):
Why hasn't alimony been discussed?
And my attorney says something and he's like, well, yeah, you should get alimony.
And I'm like, well, thanks, whatever.
Like, he's not going to pay it.
So I don't care.
Like, So we leave and minimum child parent time is set.
And I have to send the kids with him that weekend.
I got told the therapy reintroduction was not necessary and that...
(29:02):
What made that judge think that he was okay?
I don't know if it was because he had finished his like 28 days.
I have no idea.
So we had hit jury trial February, 2022.
This is now August, September, 2022.
So he's done his 28 days in custody, his 30 days house arrest.
(29:23):
He's working on his community service.
So according to the justice system, he's rehabilitated.
And not one person ever called me.
and asked me like, what do you think he needs?
Was there drugs involved?
There wasn't.
Sometimes I wish that there was because then there's a reason, right?
Not just that you're crazy and like you had so much hate inside you that this is how youhad to act to people.
(29:47):
But I just think it's crazy even now that not one person called and asked me any questionabout like what he needed.
And I remember.
After that, it was that weekend that I was supposed to send the kids with him for the veryfirst time.
And I knew that they were going into a house with his new girlfriend and her daughter.
And I know the dynamic is going to be off.
(30:08):
Like, I'm nervous about it.
And
How do the kids feel about going?
So anxious, the older two, the younger one not so much because at this point she when weleft and when all of this went down she was like four almost five.
So she knows like she would make random comments all the time.
I remember I was in the car with my mom one time and I think one of her coworkers was inthe car and my daughter randomly out of nowhere was like, mom do you remember that one
(30:34):
time that dad hit you in the nose and it was bleeding?
And I was like, uh huh.
do!
I do remember!
And so I think that was her way of processing it, is just like as random thoughts and shewould just say it.
And that is still her to this day.
Whatever is in her mind, you will know it.
And so I think that it was just things like that, that we were all kind of trying to, andI didn't know what she was gonna say when she goes there for the weekend.
(30:57):
Is she gonna say something that's gonna make him mad?
Because I let her say whatever she wants and I'm not ever gonna get mad at her for that.
That's not going to be the same reaction she gets.
So I remember...
um
We set pickup location at a police station because I don't feel comfortable.
I need some sort of security, you know?
So I remember I sent the kids that weekend and it felt awful.
(31:23):
Like it felt so.
I don't know, just unfair to them, unfair to the situation.
I don't know.
It's so crazy that the judge didn't at least say like that the kids could call you duringthe weekend just to check in.
and they had their cell phones that I provided and they kept and like I said the one thingthat was really hard too is My therapist told me you know send the things that they
(31:48):
absolutely need But don't send like a bunch of clothes and things like it's his job toprovide that now You have busted your butt for the last year and a half
to get all of these things for them, you're not gonna send them and have them forget themat his house.
I couldn't afford to replace them.
I was working an office manager job making $18 an hour trying to support three kids andpay rent.
(32:09):
I couldn't afford to do that and I felt bad because in my head I'm not giving my kids whatthey need.
And I talked to my older daughter about it and I was like, is why.
I want you to bring underwear, want you to bring socks, I want you to bring toothbrushes.
We went through and I didn't send them with nothing.
But I also was like,
Absolutely not like yeah, I was just frustrated.
Mm-hmm.
(32:29):
I feel like I rights to be frustrated But like it there who knows how to handle thatright, you know
You don't know.
You're right.
Right.
Now, I think that that's very fair, especially if your therapist is saying to deal with itlike that.
Well, just knowing how he is, right?
And I feel like it was me setting boundaries really early on, not knowing how long I wasgoing to co-parent with him and not knowing what was going to be expected of me and
(32:55):
knowing he had taken advantage of me the whole entire time we were together.
And if I gave any part of anything, he's going to grab it and run.
So I understood it was just really hard.
And that's hard to explain to kids.
Yes.
But he had to be responsible for something.
Go get your kids some clothes.
Get them what they need.
You would think.
(33:16):
Yeah.
Um, so I remember after I, my attorney told me, I was like, I hated all of that.
Like none of that felt fair.
She's like, well, you got awarded money, just be happy.
And I was like, literally don't even care.
Like, and I knew you're not, I had set up a case with like our state ORS where it wascollecting money from him, but it was never consistent.
(33:39):
It was always random.
Sometimes it was a hundred dollars.
Sometimes it was $300.
Yeah.
No, he was.
But at divorce, when we went to trial, he was not.
And so they had to impute him, I think is the word.
I don't even know if that's the correct word, at minimum wage, which is $7.25 an hour inthe state of Utah.
(34:03):
And so I argued, and I was like, that is bull crap.
Give me one place that pays $7.25 an hour.
McDonald's pays $15.
So I brought pictures.
So they ended up
upping it to like $9.80 an hour or something.
So ORS still only ordered a
have been what he's capable of making, you know?
um So they ordered him $479 a month for three children.
(34:29):
And I was like, okay, like what does that pay for?
Please tell me.
Oh, I mean, whatever, right?
And knowing that like maybe I get some, maybe I don't, that was never a consistent thing.
That was not what I worried.
So.
um
I'm sending my kids every other weekend.
(34:50):
He's supposed to get them on a weekday, but at this point he's living like an hour awayfrom us.
And so I don't even remember how I think for a while he came down and did like he wouldcome and get him and go to a park or something like that.
And um at this point I am done dating.
(35:11):
I am avoiding all of it.
I have a friend and
all boys love her and we had fun.
I was just like the little sidekick, right?
That would just wiggle behind her, you know?
And I was working as an office manager at a flight school.
I remember one day this guy started coming Oh, at a flight school?
(35:31):
Okay.
And I remember I was in the car with her because we driving out to our maintenance hangerand I saw this guy and he's walking, he's taking the garbage out.
I was like, he is cute.
And so we drive over and we find out that he's the new chief pilot of another flightschool that is at um Provo Airport was where we were based.
(35:52):
And I remember like we stopped, we said hi.
And I remember I stalked him on social media later that night, but he had a girlfriend atthe time and I was OK.
It's fine.
And so we would see each other randomly.
But like it just, you know, we didn't ever really talk.
Well, then I did my first candlelight walk for the refuge.
And we were so lucky to have this motorcycle club called Rogue Souls show up and theyshowed up in force.
(36:18):
It was incredible.
Like I still get chills talking about it.
We had our little speech and then the motorcycle club rolled up in front of the Capitolwith purple lights and purple bandanas and everything.
And it was just so cool.
And so in, thank you, I agreed to do a photo shoot for them after because that in my pastlife, that was...
But I did.
(36:39):
And so we did this such a cool photo shoot where we had like fire and it was just so funlike they were just the coolest humans that supported me in the coolest way and so I
posted these on social media so this guy that I thought was so cute that took out thegarbage messages me on social media and he's like these pictures are so cool like why are
you working at a flight school and I was like well I was like that's complicated Let's goto lunch and talk about it.
(37:03):
Well my mind I'm thinking that
he wants the inn to meet my friend because that's always what happens.
I'm like, yeah, come over to the office.
Like, let's talk about it.
Right.
So he comes over to her office and I think we both left.
I thought he was hitting on her.
He thought he was hitting on me.
We planned a lunch, but it was all three of us and it was very convoluted.
(37:28):
I remember after he messaged me and he was like, I'm totally fine to go to lunch with allyou guys, but what do you think about just going to lunch with me?
in.
I love that plan.
And so we started hanging out.
And at this point, uh he's a firefighter and he's a chief pilot of a flight school.
So overachiever.
And I remember I felt very connected to him very early on.
(37:49):
He was very supportive of like my board meetings and just a really cool human.
I felt like very safe with him.
And my divorce had just been finalized about a month later or a month previous, sorry.
And I remember
I kind of felt like we were gonna date.
Like, it kind of felt like we were headed that way, but I was scared.
(38:10):
And I, so I said, I'm like, okay, like if you feel like you wanna be with me, I'm justgonna give you all of the information.
Like this is- No, I'm not really super, like I'm doing events and I'm doing things, butI'm not, I don't really talk about it outside of that.
um So I kind of fire-posed him.
(38:31):
That's what I did.
We really laugh at that, but I just-
kind of said like this is what we've gone through.
This is the situation I'm in right now.
This is like I just kind of gave him all of the facts and I said I'm like you know if youmeet my kids my youngest will probably call you dad very early on because I knew she was
not being forced but I didn't know exactly she was being asked to call the girlfriend momwhen she was going so I knew those words were confusing in her mind and I
(39:00):
It would be natural for her.
to do it to him and I didn't want him to be intimidated by that right I can't controlwhat's happening there but I know how it's going to change her here and so I just didn't
want him to be intimidated and he was like nope I'm good and I was like okay so I let him
sure you still want to talk to me?
Because I had kind of just come to a resolve that I'm like, okay, I'm a single mom.
(39:22):
I have three kids.
Like I've got this ex-husband who is insane.
Another fun fact that I totally missed, but I wanted to bring up.
I remember the first weekend that I sent them with him.
I remember asking my victim's advocate, like, okay, he had all of these guns when he wasarrested.
I know he still has them.
What happens now?
(39:42):
And she said to me, the state of Utah doesn't take them from him.
He has to voluntarily surrender them or get caught using them.
Because he's a restricted person.
He can't have a weapon.
But because he owned them prior to his arrest, they said it's too dangerous for them totake the weapons from him.
So they won't go take them.
So I had to send my children to his home knowing he still had that.
(40:06):
Wow, Isn't that insane?
That's crazy.
It blew my mind.
I mean, I talk about it all the time because I say all the time, it's not what you know,it's who you know.
And like I said, it's disgusting.
I can't be the only one that finds that disgusting.
If your kid was in that situation, would you just sit there and be like, okay, that'stotally fine.
Because I wasn't, I was not fine with it, but I was told I had to send my kids to that.
(40:30):
And so at this point, I'm still sending my kids to him, but I've started dating my nowhusband, but we're just dating at the time.
And he was incredible.
He was incredible to let them talk about whatever emotion they had about him.
It was really hard because I think any kid that is in a co-parenting situation has reallyunstable emotions sometimes.
(40:50):
For sure.
And our youngest was definitely having that.
When she would come back, she would lay on the floor and cry and wouldn't let me touch herand just different things, right?
I knew- Because things were probably-
sad.
And I didn't even know exactly.
just knew she was showing up at our house very differently.
And I was having a hard time, parent, because it was just breaking me down emotionally.
It was hard for me to see my kids that way.
(41:11):
And he was so amazing to just hold that space.
And I do think that probably part of his firefighter background played a part in that.
He knew how to calm down a situation and calm down them and show up for them in a way thatwas just so beautiful and effortless.
I know that that was one of the things that made me fall in love with him first because hejust was so safe for all of us.
(41:37):
Right.
Are you always like waiting for the ball to drop though or something with him because ofwhat you were used to and now you have someone amazing were you like self sabotaging at
all?
Kind of I had done a lot of work on myself over that year and a half and I think because Ihad come to the place where I was like, okay I'm fine to just be single forever.
(41:57):
I had I had kind of known what I wanted in my next relationship and I knew
the things that I really hated about my previous one and things that how I hated how Ishowed up, right?
I wasn't great at setting boundaries.
I wasn't great at talking about my emotions.
Clearly my communication struggled.
So I really wanted to focus on all those things before I even considered it.
(42:18):
And I did think about dating a little bit.
There were a few dates, but I just knew I wasn't ready.
Like I could feel that things were triggering inside of me.
And I was like, my kids have been through so much.
My job right now is to just be there for them and working full time and trying to be therefor them emotionally was
pulling me in so many directions.
And so I just, I had done a lot of work, but I think because of that, I did have momentswhere I did feel like I was trying to self-sabotage, but as soon as I felt that, I just
(42:46):
went to him I'm like, this is what I'm feeling.
This is why I'm feeling it.
This is what I like, whatever it was.
you from the get-go from the get-go.
Oh, it felt really intimidating at first and uncomfortable because it's just not somethingI was ever used to even.
You know, before, I think that even like a generational thing, you know, with my parents,you just don't talk about it.
(43:08):
If you don't talk about it, it didn't happen, right?
And so it just was something that was so foreign to me, but he was always so good at it.
And I knew, I know he was incredible.
And so we're still struggling.
He's falling in love with my kids.
My kids and I move in with him in like December.
So we dated for like two months and I was like, okay, like we're.
(43:29):
35 years like we know we're gonna be together this one.
We had gone through enough trials and all of this He's falling in love with my kids.
We're sending them over to the ex-husband's house That was difficult um Through thisperiod we're getting texts from the oldest and she's like they're not coming out of their
bedroom There's no food in the house.
There's like half of a muffin and things that we need to like cook and she's like I justdon't like I don't know what to do
(43:55):
The youngest was waking up and having nightmares in the middle of the night, but he wasn'twaking up to take care of her It was the oldest that was taking care of her which was
triggering so many things for her and all of them were just struggling and So he myhusband now while we're dating so he's I guess my boyfriend which sounds weird when you're
He's like, me send you guys food like all that I'll door-dash it and she was like don'the'll be mad like She wouldn't even let us send food to the house because she was so
(44:21):
scared of his reactions
Do you, were they using or anything?
don't know.
I mean, I could have my suspicions, but I don't ever feel like that's my place to talk onit because I don't know.
It was never like, that was always the vibe.
You always had to take care of him and his needs.
That's right.
(44:41):
So I knew it wasn't shocking to me.
It was what I was required to do.
But it's just putting pressure on the kids.
And so I'm going to my victim's advocate and I'm like, there's got to be something we cando with this.
This is awful.
And ah so we filed for a protective order and or one of them there's a protective orderrestraining order.
(45:03):
We filed for one of them and we got told fear of abuse is not abuse.
They rejected it.
And so I immediately applied for the other one because at this point I have learned wellenough that if I want anything in the justice system, there's always a way to get there.
You just have to find the right holding.
Exactly.
So I'm filing which is crazy dumb.
It's the stupidest thing on the planet.
So I'm filing this other one.
(45:23):
They approve it.
So this is probably um January-ish of 2023.
At this point, I'm engaged to my now husband and the kids are not going over with himanymore.
There's more dynamic to that, but again, not my place to speak on.
(45:45):
tell you about it privately later.
We'll talk about that at lunch.
um So a couple of months go by and I am obviously, we have an attorney because you can'tjust, I mean you could, but it's confusing, right?
So at this point we have paid thousands and thousands of dollars to keep kids safe, whichis stupid to me.
That is absolutely crazy.
(46:07):
um And he calls our attorney and he says, I want to give up my parental rights to thekids.
And he said...
out of nowhere, like it wasn't leading up to that or?
I again, I kind of knew that we were gonna end there because that's what his birth daddid, if you remember back to the beginning of the story.
(46:29):
And so in my mind, I always kind of knew that we would probably end there.
I just didn't know the path that it would take, right?
And so at this point, he's saying to our attorney, the kids are being told all these liesabout me and for their mental wellbeing, I need to step away.
I'm just gonna let her new husband adopt them.
(46:51):
Okay.
so this presents a really like difficult situation as a mom because multiple emotions arecoming up, right?
A, I feel like that's probably what's best for them as far as like a stable environmentand a stable household and not going back and forth and all of the things.
And I also know how I feel thinking about my dad calling and saying, I don't want to beyour dad anymore.
(47:18):
And that wrecks my soul.
And I didn't.
know how to present it.
knew that that was what I wanted.
It like it felt really crappy.
because you didn't want them not to feel wanted.
No, they already did.
They had already been through so much.
And I knew getting through it, like if we could get to the other side, we're going to bebetter in the end.
(47:39):
going through that, like how do you go and tell your kid, like what, how do you even workthat?
Like, where do you start?
And so I remember I talked, and he was my fiance at the time, and he was like, absolutely,like I will adopt him.
Let's do it.
Like he was all gung-ho.
He was ready.
I knew that that was what was best for them.
That was going to provide
a much more stable father figure for them, stable household.
(48:02):
I mean, let's get real, even in a healthy co-parenting situation, bouncing back and forthbetween two households is hard.
That was alleviating that for them.
But again, we're in the situation that just feels impossible.
Emotionally, it feels impossible.
So I remember I text my therapist and I was like, I need to...
(48:25):
It was totally inappropriate, but I was...
I was I didn't know what to do and I remember it she called me and we talked it out andshe was like no like we've talked about it's not your job to defend his actions or defend
what he's choosing like it is your job to deliver the information in an age-appropriateway that's your job so we took the older two kids and we asked them we said do you want to
(48:50):
be adopted we gave them the choice because I mean
Our choice had been taken from us.
All of our choices had been taken.
They were sad, obviously.
That's a hard emotional thing to face, but I think that they had felt so accepted andloved by him that it counteracted that in some- That rejection.
(49:13):
You know what I mean?
We start going through the adoption process, which was a whole other burden.
It just took forever.
It was really difficult because he wouldn't sign a paper saying that he was giving upparental rights and my new husband could adopt them.
(49:34):
We had to file all these different paperwork.
And at this point, I had paid thousands and thousands of dollars and I'm like, okay, Ican't do this anymore.
This isn't sustainable to take care of them and pay this.
So I was like, okay, I'm going to try and figure it out.
So we stopped.
Our attorney dropped us.
She was like, if you can't give me $2,000 this week, it was two weeks before Christmas.
(49:55):
And she was like, if you can't give us $2,000 this week, then we're done.
And I was like, I can't.
Like if you can give me till January, like I can, but there's no way.
And within an hour, she had filed paperwork with the court and I was like, okay.
So I was like, okay, well, I guess like.
We're just going to figure it out.
at this point, we're planning our wedding, and we're trying to do all of that and juststill live life, right?
(50:17):
Not focus on the negative stuff so much.
I'm still sitting on the board for the refuge.
I mean, is good, all things considered.
The kids are starting to get more stable.
They're getting involved in school, which was not anything that they had before.
So we finally.
(50:39):
get married, which was amazing, and shortly after I got pregnant, I, we were trying to getpregnant.
My husband did not have any kids of his own, and so we decided like that would, hedeserves that.
He showed up as the most incredible dad to my kids, and so I got pregnant and it ended upbeing twins.
(51:01):
we have five children.
and it is insane.
I'm sure it is so much fun and they they turn one on the eighth.
So is that so little?
Yeah, they're like almost one.
We fly home and it is their birthday.
So um obviously that put a delay in adoption things because I'm trying to figure it outmyself, but I was so so sick.
(51:24):
So we were still doing things um but
We just recently on July 3rd had our final adoption hearing and he adopted that.
I know it's gonna make me cry.
He adopted them and it was so beautiful.
And ironically enough, my ex-husband's birth dad was at the adoption.
What?
(51:45):
I know, I gotta get that.
He's still apart.
So I told you that he was one of the only ones that kind of were let in the house thatlast year that I was with him.
And once everything separated,
He still stayed in contact with me and I definitely did not trust that relationship atfirst that felt uncomfortable and I kept him at an arm's length for at least a year.
(52:05):
Well, and he had told me he's like, I'm not talking to him.
Like I don't agree with what he did to you guys.
I'm so sorry.
And again, I knew he wasn't in constant contact with him.
It had been a very on and off relationship throughout his whole life.
So I had kind of believed what he had to say, but he was like, I just care about you.
I care about the kids.
I just want to be there for you guys.
And so
(52:25):
I would ask the kids, do you want to see him?
And they were like, yeah, out in public, we can do things.
And so I would invite them to sports games or things if we were out by their house, whereit wasn't so uncomfortable or it's direct conversation.
And throughout the years, he's just been so patient and been amazing with the kids.
He showed up and it was just, for me, it was really beautiful closure.
(52:48):
It sucks.
It sucks that we ended there, but I'm so grateful for the life that we have now.
Like the ability that we have to be loved by someone because I think a lot of people turnoff to love after they've been betrayed by someone that's supposed to love.
So.
or you sabotage everything after and everything just all the trauma
(53:11):
Yes.
So now I do a lot of things, but the refuge is just so important to me.
They saved my life.
They saved my life.
And I think you hear about it all the time.
The shelter was full when my abuser was arrested.
That happens all over the place, right?
Yeah, it does.
And so I was lucky enough that the refuge, I think it was about seven years ago, they wereone of 11 programs that started using VOCA funds.
(53:36):
to help victims get back into apartments.
And I was one of the people to receive that.
So they were able to like pay my apartment deposit.
They knew I had a job.
They knew I had a way to sustain it.
I just needed that little help.
Like, so I know for example, last year our shelter served like 170 people, but had to turnaway 450.
(53:56):
Isn't that insane?
And so it's just crazy.
Right now we're working on...
um saving up money to build a new shelter that will dramatically increase.
Right now, I think we only have 25 beds and the new shelter will be like a hundred andsomething.
It will be severely different and so big.
Wow.
Give survivors a chance to just feel safe for a minute.
And just think those numbers are only the people that are asking for help.
(54:20):
Right.
And there's so many people that don't.
And so just knowing all of those things, right?
It's heartbreaking.
And I'm just so grateful that my situation played out the way that it did, because I knowthat is why I was successful.
And so I kind of looked back at my situation, and I was like, OK, I met him when I was ateenager.
I met him when I knew everything.
And so uh my mom works at a high school now, and I went to her social worker, and I waslike, I want to talk to high schoolers.
(54:45):
I want to talk to them.
And I started talking in his classes.
And I had the Refuge Prevention Team come with me.
And they had already been presenting in health classes.
But we kind of implemented my story into it, where we start just telling them when I methim and how it looked.
And not in a scary way, because it wasn't scary.
I loved him.
And I was in love with him.
And I thought I knew what love was and all of the things.
(55:08):
And so I just went, because I feel like so often when domestic violence is spoken about,it's a number or a statistic.
And it's not.
relatable to a human or a person.
And so I started going around to high schools and speaking at high schools.
And just recently, before I came here, I hosted my very first event to the public wherejust anyone could come.
Because I had a couple people that had asked, do you ever do it where I can just bring mydaughter?
(55:32):
And I was like, well, I've only ever done it in closed classes, but why not?
And we had like 60, sorry, I'm going to cry.
We had like 65 people show up.
And I was just amazed.
I felt so honored and so blessed that they would just show up.
We had them show up.
I hope to do so many more.
(55:52):
And now that the adoption is finalized, I'm hoping to start a podcast of my own just totalk to others.
feel like overcoming trauma is so difficult.
And I feel like it just changes how you show up in the world.
It changes how you show up in relationships.
I know how it feels.
so alone.
So alone.
And that's why like your story, all these stories, it's so important.
Yes.
Because then people are like, wait.
(56:13):
I can do this.
Someone else has done this.
Yes.
Yeah.
So I just like, I know it's changed how we parent.
It changes how I am with my husband.
It changes our relationship and how we communicate.
And I just think it's beautiful how trauma can become something beautiful after, you know?
So now.
If you think there's so many people, like we've said a hundred times how you felt, I havefelt like that before.
(56:40):
You don't think that anyone would understand or could relate.
Made to feel like that, that you are so loved.
So now nothing but up, just hoping to be a really incredible mom and
I think you already are.
Thank you.
Yes.
Thank you.
And you're setting an amazing example.
Thank so much.
(57:00):
hope so.
It terrifies me that now my oldest daughter is dating and I hope she always feels like shecan come and talk to me.
So far so good.
Well, I think again, that's why our situation was crappy, but I'm so grateful that she wasin it the way she is because now we have a connection that we wouldn't have had otherwise.
I hate how we got it, but I love the connection that we have.
(57:26):
He's like out of the picture doesn't harass you guys anything now.
I mean, they still make posts on social media about how I'm crazy and about how I made itup and whatever.
So that still happens, but I keep them blocked.
I hear about it randomly.
I know that he's still in the state of Utah.
He only lives about an hour north of us, last I heard.
So I try to always kind of know where he's at if I can.
(57:48):
Cause it makes me anxious.
I just want to avoid that city at all costs.
I have a friend that lives in the city he's in now.
And so I know when I go see her, I go to her house and I go home.
I don't stop at gas stations.
I don't stop at the grocery.
I don't know how I would react.
I can guess that I would probably freeze and panic as much as I want to say I would getall...
(58:09):
would probably panic and I don't want to figure that out.
No.
Good.
It's better to avoid it.
So I just live my life and raise my baby.
and just telling your story and putting it out how you just said about the 60 some peoplethat showed up.
mean, didn't that like just makes your heart like sing.
It was incredible too because it was so many of my daughter's friends that are liketeenagers that like I was so passionate about them hearing and they were all so sweet like
(58:38):
so many of them messaged me after and were just so kind and like they were like no like Ihad one girl come up and she was like I realize I have so many toxic relationships in my
life and I was like I'm so sorry but thank you for coming yeah and so my next goal is todo one that boys want to come to because I don't think it's exclusive to girls this one
just happened to play out that the you know the marketing
(58:59):
for the event was mothers and daughters.
Because I think it's important to have a mother, especially when we're talking abouttrauma.
I mean, we don't talk about specific events of abuse, but I talk about what myrelationship was like, what it led to, and why they should pay attention to me.
We talk about him wanting to date other girls when we started, and how it progressedthrough our relationship.
(59:19):
Because you can see he was boiling the crap, boiling the lobsters out of it.
It's like you can see it.
Now looking back, I would have never admitted to it in the moment.
But I, yeah.
So I telling the story in that way.
And it might make your light bulb go out for a lot of people that are in the samesituation.
That's what's beautiful.
(59:41):
My gosh, I'm so proud of you.
It's inspiration.
I love that you were able to come on here and tell all this.
beautiful.
I'm having so much fun out here.
I'm definitely coming back.
Yes, natural for sure.
It's so much fun.
Yeah.
So fun.
is.
And I'll make sure it adds all your stuff, like the refuge, everything, you know, in thedescription.
(01:00:04):
oh So then that way, you know, if God forbid, if there's somebody else in Utah and they dolisten to your story.
Yeah, well that's the thing.
I just remember feeling like I had no choice like I felt like I had nowhere to go and likeas much as you want to go and like it was great that I was that I had a friend that she
came and picked me up but that's not where you heal.
That's not where you find yourself.
(01:00:25):
You need you have been stripped of every part of who you are and you have to be given thatback and I just I wouldn't be who I am today without that.
Wow, I love it.
We'll make sure everybody has access to it too.
you so, much.
And all the things you're doing.
I know I can't keep my I can't keep still it doesn't help that my husband's gone half themonth He was gone for training when I had my idea for my mother-daughter event and he
(01:00:51):
called me He was on a flight and he called me and I was like, honey And I was like I'mplanning an event and he's like, okay, he's like, when are we doing it?
And I was like, well, I think we're gonna do
before we go to Nashville and he's like, that a smart idea?
I'm like, yes.
Absolutely.
Why not?
And so it was so funny and it ended up that he did have to leave for work.
(01:01:11):
They flew him out for work and he wasn't home for my event, but that's okay.
He is here.
He's good.
He got to come with me to Nashville.
So that was all that happened.
All right, well thank you.
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