Husband’s First Wife Was Murdered, He Later Took His Life

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to Beyond the Monsters.
And today I have Sarah Benedict with me.
She came from Alabama, drove here this morning.
Her story, it's a big one.

(00:29):
Trigger warning, murder, suicide, rape, and other explicit content.
Okay, Sarah, so you have such an incredible story, and it's gonna be long because there'sa lot involved.
You have your husband who recently committed suicide about a year and a half ago, but youhave such a history with him going so far back to when his...

(00:57):
Was she his wife or girlfriend?
Wife.
When his first wife was murdered.
Yes.
When he was only 20 years old.
I know.
And they had a daughter.
And there's just so much involved with that.
So why don't we start, if you want, from high school?
Yeah.
you've known him since high school.
I mean, that's kind of where we have to start.
Yeah.
it's his whole story.
So basically, Andrew moved to Texas when he was, I think, about 13 or 14 years old fromVirginia.

(01:25):
And so, you know, he and his family moved here trying to create a new life, you know, justnormal job opportunities, things like that.
So he started at our school in Farmersville.
Now I started there from like pre-K and that's kind of how these small towns in Texas go.
Like, you know, you move somewhere as a child, you start from pre-K up and you startlearning who everyone is and everyone.

(01:48):
And so Rochelle, which was his first wife, I mean, she was in my sister's grade.
I have an older sister and they were in the same grade.
you know, typical small town, we all just knew everybody.
So we were going, you know, through elementary school, through middle school, and thenAndrew moves into town.
And, you know, he's kind of cute.

(02:09):
Like everyone's like, oh, who's the new kid in town?
And you know, even guy friends were like, oh, who's this new?
guy, he skateboards and he does all these different things.
And so everyone was very interested in him.
And he was also in my sister's grade.
And so, you know, so for me, I really wasn't paying too close attention to him per se, butthat's kind of how he started to become incorporated into our town.

(02:33):
know, new kid on the block, skateboarder, difference, things like that.
Well,
So I mean, like everything was normal.
I mean, it was just a normal kid moving in from out of state to our town and him minglingand meshing with everyone.
And he met Rochelle.
And I mean, I don't think either one of them really dated too many other people.

(02:54):
mean, they immediately had a connection and they were together all through high school.
And I mean, sure, there was like other boys that crushed on her and there was other girlsthat crushed on him, but they always like just kept gravitating back towards each other.
And so, you know, in a small town, you're like, OK, well, they're just together.
Right.
Don't mess with them.

(03:15):
They're just together.
Right.
Don't get involved in that.
Don't get involved.
And you know, that's just how everyone viewed them.
They were just the cute little couple that was always together.
you know, Rochelle, think she wanted to do different things in life.
You know, she she didn't exactly, I think, wanted to do like the whole graduate from highschool, go to college stuff.

(03:36):
I think she was more
interested in like cosmetology or, you know, doing things like that.
Like she had family members that were hairdressers and I think she was going down thatroute.
And, you know, but Andrew, like he went ahead and graduated high school and but they werestill together.
And, you know, right after that, that's when they got pregnant.
OK, so, you know, of course, it's a small town and everyone's like, oh, they're pregnantnow.

(04:01):
Right.
You know, so it was kind of like.
It was one of the first teenage pregnancies to or not teenage, but, know, like very youngpregnancies in the town.
So everyone was always like, you know, paying attention to those things.
But when they did get pregnant, no one was like surprised.
I mean, like everyone was like, of course, they're starting a family, you know, likethey've been together.

(04:24):
They're madly in love with each other.
Of course, they're going to start a family.
But at the same time, they were very young, you know, very young.
mean, they had no time to experience any kind of life.
You know, I mean, what do you do right out of high school and then get pregnant?
And so there was a lot of pressure for them to get married immediately when they found outthat they were pregnant.

(04:47):
And that's what they did.
You know, I think they were both trying to do the right thing by getting married so young.
But I think it just put an incredible pressure on their relationship.
And, you know, like they obviously started having some problems.
because of that.
Like, you know, you went from boyfriend and girlfriend high school.

(05:08):
This is fun to my God, we're adults and we got pregnant and now we're married.
And I think they live together already when they were they were living with her parents.
So, you know, again, they didn't even have the time or space to save up to even buy ahouse or, you know, have really good jobs to even afford a home at the time.

(05:30):
Sure.
mean, they were barely young.
Yeah.
So young.
And both of them.
so but there was an incredible pressure for them to figure it out all of sudden.
And pressure from the whole town.
Yeah, pressure from the whole town.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because like, you know, you know, for her parents, it was like, well, we want her to betaken care of.

(05:51):
And, know, for him, he's like, well, gosh, I'm still a child myself.
Like, how am I supposed to start taking care of a wife and a family?
Right.
So there was just like an incredible pressure right from the beginning.
for him to just figure it out.
So obviously, like I said, that kind of just created a rift between the two of them.

(06:12):
And I think they just started bickering and fighting and they started growing apart.
And honestly, like right after or yeah, it was like right after Avery was born.
They both just kind of decided, I think we need to separate.
OK, I mean, it was it was a very fast thing.
It was a very fast.
We're pregnant, let's get married to a very much so.

(06:34):
There's a child now and this isn't working.
Right.
So it was all very traumatic to hear about because, you know, obviously we're ineveryone's business.
Right.
you know, so for even me to hear about it through the grapevine, even though, yes, I wasmutual friends with everybody, I still wasn't like, you know, in their day to day.

(06:55):
Right.
Like I was having my own life.
I was two years younger.
I actually decided to graduate high school a year early, because I was like, I got to getout of this town.
This town is small.
And so I graduated high school early just to get out of town, because I knew that therewas more to explore.
So I started going to college in Corpus Christi, Texas.

(07:20):
I was beach bumming it up.
I was having fun.
You know, I was doing my life.
But yeah, to hear.
mean, everyone knew about their story.
It was kind of like watching a soap opera.
I'm sure, you know.
And so with that being said, what happened next was just like traumatic.
was like the next scene of the soap opera became very traumatic for both of them.

(07:45):
And the whole town was just basically shocked what happened.
So anyway.
What happened was so, you know, they were separating during this time and she had justgotten a rental home in downtown Farmersville where we all grew up because, you know, I
think her parents were trying to help her get her feet on the ground, get her independenceand things like that.

(08:10):
so, you know, she was trying to live on her own and figure things out.
Well, we had this friend that we all grew up with, right?
I mean, like.
This friend was in my sister's grade also.
He was two years older than me.
His name was Moses.
And like I said, we do the whole pre-K up.
We all knew each other.
Right.
I mean, and his sister was in my grade.

(08:32):
You know, I mean, we're all very close.
We all knew each other.
We all knew where each other lived, who our parents were.
everything.
Yeah, everything.
I mean, we all went to school functions together, sports, all sorts of stuff.
Well, this guy just kind of...
Before I even moved to Corpus Christi, I would be hanging out with this crowd and he wasjust always the guy who would start trouble.

(08:56):
know, like we would be, you know, drinking at field parties or something and he would bethe one to start a fight.
He would be the one to just start talking trash.
to someone, right?
And we all just chalked it up as, all right.
Like when he was drinking, he would do it or just, yeah.
Yeah.
And then like we would just chalk it up as, all right, he's a little unhinged, you know,like we're all a little unhinged.

(09:20):
Yeah.
He's entertainment.
Yeah.
You know, we would all be like, cut it out.
It's time to go home.
Right.
You know, but like it never.
Yes, it would like escalate a lot, but I don't think any of us knew he was dangerous until
it started getting dangerous.
OK, so, you know, he was he was the type of guy who, yes, he would start fights and yes,he would do this.

(09:43):
But I think his behavior became more and more erratic, you know, as time grew on and likehow old right now, like when you're starting to see that.
So he was the same age as Rochelle and Andrew, like 20, 20 ish.
you know, like I said, I moved to Corpus, but I would come back and visit.

(10:04):
So.
The I decided to come back and visit for spring break when this tragedy happened with whathappened happened.
And, you know, we did the whole thing spring break.
Let's go have a lot of parties.
Let's have a party in each town all across.
Yeah.
And let's all get together.
And, you know, so I went to a couple of parties that Moses was at.

(10:28):
And yeah, I mean, like I could tell he was erratic.
He was drinking a lot.
And but to me, since I was just visiting, I was like, well, he's just being himself.
Right.
You know, he's just doing his same old crap.
Yeah.
You know, like the same shit you've seen many times.
And like even before I moved, there were some moments where he even would get violentwith, you know, or rough with girls like even me.

(10:52):
But even still then, I was just kind of like, you know, he's just being a jerk.
He's just being himself.
Right.
Like.
There wasn't really a moment where I was like, he could take it to that level until hetook it to that level.
And so when I visited for spring break, we went to a party and we were all there and wewere drinking and he was just very erratic.

(11:18):
And there was other girls at the party.
And like I said, he would just kind of erratic and, you know, rough behavior with women.
Like what would he do?
Like he would just say the most.
crazy things.
Like even that night at the party, he was like threatening two girls there, like, youknow, physically.
And my guy friends were all just like, you got to cut it out.
Same story, you know, like he would get erratic, he would start crap.

(11:40):
Guys at the party would be like, you got to cut it out.
But it was like it was just when he was drinking.
It was just when he was drinking most of the time.
And you know, and that's the thing, when you grow up with someone, you're just like, know,right, like this is just what he does.
Yeah, that's them.
You don't ever think, my gosh, like this could escalate into something violent oranything.

(12:02):
Right.
So anyway, like that night at the party, yes, he was being very erratic with these twogirls there and he was talking trash.
But, you know, I'm just visiting.
I'm just trying to have a good time.
Like I'm trying to socialize, you know, catch up with everyone.
So I'm like, you know, kind of paying attention, but not right.
And he left the party that night he was gone for a few hours and he'd show back up.

(12:27):
And then he'd be gone for a few hours and you show back up.
you know, when eventually just got too late, we all either went back home or, you know, Idon't, can't remember what I ended up doing.
I think I just ended up going back home.
But that was the night that he decided to stop by Rochelle's house and see what she wasdoing.

(12:49):
And now were they like friends normally, or it's just kind of how you said everybody kneweverybody.
from what I knew and what I feel too, because I am intuitive about the situation.
And of course there's lots of rumors.
There was lots of rumors that they were hooking up and all this stuff.
But man, mean, the more and more I talk to people about it, the more it sounds like thathe was just very interested in her, wanted to be with her.

(13:15):
And she was like, I just had a baby.
Like, you know, because I've had kids.
Right.
And five months after you have a baby, you don't want anyone touching you.
Exactly.
And so I think she was just trying to have a lot of boundaries with him being like, I I'mliterally postpartum.
Right.
You know, like, don't touch me.
And just getting out of a marriage.

(13:36):
Yeah.
And exactly like she's not even technically divorced.
Right.
They're just separated.
And so I think she just was very, you know, stern with her.
No.
And he was so erratic that that was just not going to fly.
And he took it upon himself to be with her.

(13:58):
Oh.
And so that night he went over there and, know, basically kind of, you know, there's aquestion of breaking in.
mean, I'm sure, you know, and that's the thing, we're all friends.
So I'm sure she was like, what's he doing?
Right.
Probably let him know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Probably let him in or something.
Who knows?
But like.

(14:19):
There was an altercation.
You know, it looked like he was going to have his way whether she liked it or not.
Right.
And, you know, so the baby's there.
The baby's there.
Yeah.
She's on the bed.
And from the police reports, you know, it looked like that there was, know, an altercationthat she was trying to get away from him.

(14:41):
And then they, you know, he took her out to his truck.
And that's where the actual murder took place.
And you know, he like raped her inside.
That's from what?
Yeah.
But like the car.
Basically, there's there's so much.

(15:02):
I feel like there was a lot of different things going on, you know, and so like the policereports are probably going to say, OK, this is where this happened.
This is where that happened.
But it looked like, I mean, it looked like there was.
Forced.
sex, rape going on.
Even the DNA reports confirm that when they found her body and everything.

(15:25):
And so there was definitely that going on.
But then I think it was just multiple times where he was just angry and was violent withher.
mean, there was strangulation.
There was a stab wound in her neck.
I mean, there was lots of different things that happened in order for her to die.
Maybe it's like he snapped from not getting his way and then he's he like rapes her, doeswhatever.

(15:49):
Yeah.
And then there's no going back.
There's no going back.
Yeah.
And so he just became a violent monster.
Yeah.
You know, so what happened after that is, like I said, it's spring break.
Everyone's at different parties.
You know, even Andrew was at a different party that night.
Right.
And so no one was really paying attention to see if she was OK.

(16:11):
It's not like there was like a nighttime watch back then or anything.
And it's crazy, too, because the house that she lived in was literally like two blocksaway from the police department.
mean, like this just happened right in middle of town.
And so but yeah, Moses just became a violent person or I mean, he already was a violentperson, but that night he became a killer.

(16:32):
Right.
And he
He killed her.
And so that's the thing.
I think after he did that, he freaked out and took her body and tried to hide it.
Well, he did do that.
He took her body and hid the body.
And because I think he was like, my gosh, what did I just do?

(16:54):
Did they ever say like what actually killed her was when he stabbed her?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was the it was I think that's what the the coroner or the the autopsy report said thatit was it was that that actually fatal.
Yeah.
my God.
So he took her body to, I believe, his home at first and try to hide just at home now.

(17:16):
Yeah.
Baby's just at home.
So, okay, so yeah, like, so he takes her away.
So now Avery, this baby, this five month old baby, she's laying in bed all day, or layingin bed all night by herself.
Rochelle's mom was the one who was like, I can't get a hold of her.
Like, how come I can't get a hold of her?

(17:36):
So she went over there to- Just like morning?
This is morning.
Okay.
Yeah.
So she went over there being like, where is she?
Why isn't she responding?
And she finds Avery on the bed and she's all wet, you know, because she's a baby.
Right.
And cold doors open.
Hungry like.
Yeah.
Crying.
so the door was left open.

(17:57):
Yeah.
I mean, nothing was locked, you know.
Yeah.
And so it's a miracle that Avery was OK.
That Avery wasn't injured in all of this, you know, because she could have easily.
And, you know, Moses could have easily been like, you know, I just killed the mom, mightas well kill the baby.
Yeah.
Exactly.
I mean, like it was almost like there was just this protection around Avery at that timethat he maybe wouldn't notice her or even think to do anything with her.

(18:24):
I mean, it's really a miracle.
Right.
And so but yeah, Rachel's mom came over and found Avery like that.
So obviously she was like, what the heck happened?
Yeah.
Like, why is everything?
Why is there furniture all over the place?
Why is the bed moved?
Why is all this stuff in disarray?

(18:44):
And so obviously she panics, you know, right.
And that's when basically the whole town was alerted, like something had happened.
And so so literally this was like.
So, you know, I was in town and I remember I think my flight was like two days after thatto go back to school and, know, just get out of there again.

(19:06):
Right, right.
And when I was leaving, that's when like things started coming to light, like, hey,something happened.
which I was missing and all that kind of stuff.
But I'm flying out.
So I'm like, I don't know what happened, you know, but see you later.
Right.
Like I'm getting back out here.
Yeah.
And so, you know, and of course, in my head, I'm like, oh, I'm sure it's just a situationwhere they'll find her.

(19:30):
You know, like it's just probably definitely not thinking.
No, no one ever thinks.
Yeah.
No one ever thinks first right off the bat that something.
terrible happens like that.
You think, you know, maybe she drank and passed out at someone's house or, know, likesomething like that.
Like you just think kids are being kids and and something irresponsible happened, but nota murder.

(19:54):
Right.
You know.
Right.
So even when I was leaving, it was just kind of like this.
you know, I I heard that this is going on, but I'm sure she's fine.
You know, they'll find her.
She's probably just somewhere, you know, or whatever.
So I get back to Corpus, I'm, you know, doing, friends are calling, my gosh, she's stillmissing.
They're actually out searching for her.

(20:16):
They're in fields with four wheelers looking for her.
And I'm like, what is going on there?
You know, and I'm calling more friends, me like, trying to get more information because Iliterally just saw these people.
And so everyone is kind of the same thing.
We don't know what's going on, but it is a.
wild, crazy environment here because there's cops everywhere.

(20:38):
There's state troopers everywhere.
There's firefighters everywhere looking there.
I mean, there's people coming in from outside of Texas trying to find her.
And so everyone's freaking out at this point.
And nothing's probably happened like this before.
Yeah.
Ever happened like that before in that town or even in that area.

(20:59):
Right.
You know, I mean, this is 2004 when this happened and
you know, before social media, before murder podcasts, right?
You these true crime things.
mean, you, we all just were like, we literally all probably thought first when wheneverything was happening that she literally just ran away for a second.

(21:19):
Right.
Maybe the pressure was too much and she stayed with a friend in Plano or Dallas orsomething.
Right.
You know, like you don't think something terrible and tragic happened to her.
Right.
Especially not from someone from your own town that you grew up with.
You know.
It's the fact that her baby was there, you know, It's just.
Well, and that's what everyone was really like thrown off by that, because, you know, eventhough Rochelle was a young mother, she was known to be a good mother.

(21:46):
She never left her kid anywhere.
Right.
She didn't let anyone babysit.
You know, it's not like she was the girl who was like, yeah, take my kid for two days.
That way I can go party.
She would not do that.
And everyone knew that about.
So it was strange how it happened and it was strange how you know furniture was everywhereand no one could put it together so It was just crazy and so yeah, I'm getting phone calls

(22:13):
and I'm calling other people being like, you know update me on what's going on Well, thenthat's when about four days later someone called me and they were like they found out who
did it and it was Moses and you know, actually my first reaction was like of
Of course it was Moses because we all just knew kind of how crazy he was.

(22:34):
But then I was like, my God.
Like he actually went to that level and he actually took someone's life like that.
Is he like missing at this point too or?
So it's crazy because right before I left for Corpus, we all, you know, got together againat a house party and he was there.

(22:57):
And he was like, I hope they find her.
I mean, he was acting like everyone else.
Yeah, I'm going to go look for her.
So when I think back on that, I'm like, my gosh.
Like you literally just lied to my face.
Like sitting right by me.
Was he acting more like well behaved at that point?

(23:18):
At that part, at that last time I saw him, you know, he was very like, you know,concerned.
Like, yeah, we're going to find her.
We'll find her.
Now I'm like, you did it.
Right.
What do you mean we're going to find her?
You know, so it was just the craziest feeling of being like, my gosh, for one, I was I'vebeen hanging out with a murderer for, you know, a total psychopath.

(23:42):
Like a total psychopath for years.
But we all were.
Right.
Gosh, I guess pay more attention to the ones that act crazy.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, like, don't just chalk it up with something like.
there really could be a murderer sitting right next to you and you don't even realize it.
And see, the crazy thing is, during that time, was 2004, like I said, what show was verypopular at that time?

(24:07):
Jackass.
We're all messing around.
We're all lighting firecrackers underneath people's chairs.
We're all spraying fire hydrant stuff on each other.
I mean, we're just being silly.
So the erratic behavior was
Popular lot popular lies.
No, can't even say that the erratic behavior was kind of taken as a normal thing back thenbecause of those shows You know and you know Bam Margera and and in a skater in you know,

(24:38):
and I was am have you seen him?
I know I know Yeah, see that's the thing with Andrew brought in that skater vibe
So we were all watching skater stuff.
We were all over at each other's houses playing Tony Hawk.
We were just being kids goofing off.

(25:01):
So you don't think with that being in that environment, you're like, we're just beingimpressionable.
We're just being kids.
We're watching these shows of other people being erratic, snorting wasabi.
You know, we're just watching them do it.
So then we get some right.

(25:21):
ideas about doing something like that.
Yeah.
You think you want to be cool, too?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that was the problem.
The problem was we were just kind of marking up his behavior as like throw it in therewith the rest of it.
Yeah.
Just something that we were just experiencing as a culture.
Right.
You know.
So, yeah, when he did that, it was just very shocking.

(25:43):
It was very real.
Now, your husband, though, they
They thought at first that he was like the suspect.
Yeah.
Just because of.
Exactly.
I mean, the relationship.
And I even talked to several police officers about this and firefighters.
mean, you know, first person that always suspect.
Yeah.
Is he is the estranged spouse.

(26:03):
Right.
And they were estranged.
Right.
And they were going through a separation.
They decided that this wasn't working.
Too much pressure on both of them as young adults.
And, you know, they were separating at the time.
And so Andrew was just put in a really bad situation because the cops literally were doingtheir job.

(26:24):
I don't want to bad mouth the cops.
Yeah.
Even though I do have a lot of friends who have told me I think they went way too hard onhim, which they could have.
Sure.
They could have, you know, because I really think those cops wanted someone to confess todoing something.
Well, and if this is a town that these officers and all the law enforcement there.

(26:44):
They're not used to dealing with this shit.
Exactly.
So they're probably like, all right, it has to be him.
Right.
Yeah.
And they wanted so badly to solve it quickly.
Yeah.
You know.
And so of course, they're going to go after Andrew.
And they went after him hard.
You know, I mean, like, you know, and that's the thing, Andrew tried not to talk aboutthat experience too much with me just because it was so traumatic.

(27:06):
Right.
But I remember him saying that one one time when they were interrogating him, he just gotso mad that he started
You know, throwing things, he was throwing chairs.
He broke the vending machine in the room.
I mean, like he he was going crazy because they breaking him down.
They were breaking him down.
And can you imagine being a 20 year old 20 year old male who just had a kid who alreadyfeels like a kind of a failure because it's like I couldn't figure it out.

(27:33):
My wife wants to leave me now.
Right.
And now she's missing.
And they're thinking that I did something to her.
And the baby again, still left there like all the things he had to be like going crazy.
Yeah, I can't imagine what his mind was going through at the time.
And I'm sure it fractured him.

(27:54):
I'm it just fractured his soul.
I really think that the events that happened from the time she was, you know, missing tothe time they found her.
think it was just those little days, those four days that he completely probably lost hissoul.
because of the extreme amount of suspicion upon him, the extreme amount of interrogationthat was put on him.

(28:19):
I mean, they even did a lie detector test.
And I talked to Avery, you know, just to kind of recap on what she knew too.
And she said that the police officer who drove him back from that lie detector test, Imean, he was so exhausted afterwards.
He just, he was asleep the whole time when they were taking him back home.
I mean, it wiped him out.
So I can't imagine.

(28:40):
what that did to his body, what that did to his mind and his soul and spirit.
And then you have everybody probably talking shit.
Oh yeah.
Oh god.
Yeah the whole town of course is like oh they're interrogating Andrew.
He probably had something to do with it.
Right, of course.
You know and see and that's the thing too is 2004 it was a time of no social media.

(29:00):
No one could no one could sit there and be a keyboard warrior and be like no I knowAndrew.
He didn't do that.
Exactly.
It's probably a good thing too and I say that even with
my first husband's death because mine was oh the end of oh one okay 2001 so I can onlyimagine the shit that people would have said like good to defend right but

(29:22):
All the made up stories too that you'd have to deal with.
Like I'm almost thankful.
Like I know, see I'm I'm weird about it too because yeah, I am thankful it happened duringa time where there wasn't like, you know, more suspicion and more attention.
But I think the cleanup maybe could have been a little bit better.
Right.
You know, if if because because every time I talk to anybody who really knew us, who knewAndrew, they always say he would have never done that.

(29:48):
Right.
He loved her so much.
So it would have been nice to put it out there.
later like this person did it he's this and Andrew's all these things he would have neverexactly but you didn't have the chance to do that never had the chance to do it and so you
know I think Andrew died that week too I think he never regained his his innocence afterthat right his spirit was gone

(30:15):
And, you know, it was just a sad thing that it was just a whole tragedy.
And so, you know, of course, like after that happened, how did they find her?
where like.
So that's the thing.
So it was a guy who was hunting for.
head.

(30:36):
Just random dude.
Wow.
And he saw what looked like a body part and he was like, crap.
So he called the police and it was her.
And, you know, Moses tried his best to make sure that she wasn't recognizable.
but, know, with dental records and things like that, I mean, like it was her, you know,they just.

(31:01):
Oh, so it was just like brutal.
It was brutal.
I mean, he did everything he could to make sure that she did not look like a human.
Oh, my God.
And.
So yeah, was terrible to know what happened to her, how she died, what was done with herafter.
It was horrible.
It's like, you don't even treat animals like that after they die.

(31:23):
Did he blame himself at all because he wasn't around?
Or did he go through a lot of that?
Yeah.
mean, there's several people who I've talked to who, not just Andrew, but friends andfamily who was like, oh, I should have been there that night.
I actually thought to go stay the night over there that night.
You know, like even Rochelle's parents, they were like, hey, you should just stay at ourhouse tonight if you have a headache or something.

(31:47):
And she was like, no, I'm just going to.
I mean, like everyone's got survivor's guilt for this.
You know, so it was it was tragic.
mean, got her poor parents.
I know.
I mean, like just just even in.
Yeah.
Just to even think about what each person had gone through, you know, because I've beenthrough that to the mental gymnastics, anxiety that happened.

(32:11):
with all of it.
mean, I can't imagine what was going on with them.
So, but it was horrible.
I mean, they found her though, and that did bring a lot of peace to the community, atleast to where it's like, well, we found her, you know, because you have some people who
go missing and they never find their bodies.
Right.
They never get closure.

(32:31):
How did they figure out it was him?
So, so they found the body.
And I think during that time, during the four days she was missing, they were already kindof
like, wait a minute, something's not right.
Andrew, he has an alibi.
He was at a place.
Something's not lining up.
So I think they were at that time in the four days starting to look at other people.

(32:54):
OK.
And actually, so silly.
So Moses actually confessed to a girl that lived in a different town.
And I think it was like that day, they were like, if anyone has information, we'll giveyou money.
Right.
And she was like, hey.
He wasn't very smart.
He wasn't very smart to go.

(33:14):
He was not smart.
Tell some random girl.
Yeah.
And it was like, I think it was like a girl that he was like dating.
I don't really even know, to be honest, like what their connection was.
But, you know, he confessed to her and she was like, I can't sit here with thisinformation morally.
But of course, it helped that there was reward money.
But I mean, I really don't think she could have sat there much longer morally.

(33:36):
Right.
And been like, I got to tell somebody.
So she actually went to the authorities and told them and they were like, whoa,
a lot of her stories checking out.
And I think they had enough evidence at that point to get an arrest warrant.
OK.
And they arrested him.
So all of this happened very quickly.
fast.
OK.
Yeah.
I mean, this was literally within the four days.

(33:58):
Wow.
And so, yeah, so they they had their guy.
The cops finally had their guy.
Did he admit it?
yeah.
I mean, he confessed to it.
And it's so funny because, you know, I watched some of the videos
that of the confession and you know it's funny he said the same thing he's like I don'twant the town to treat my family any different

(34:21):
You know, I mean, like everyone like that, that just goes to show how small this town was.
Right.
Right.
Like even as a murderer, he was like, this town is going to like chastise my family.
so, you know, but he didn't think about that a little earlier.
No, he think about that earlier.
But that goes to show to what was done Andrew, that whole town chastise Andrew, right.

(34:45):
He was the murder at first.
And the problem was there was no resolve.
The problem was that
No one said, you know, no, it wasn't him.
Yeah.
Like for sure.
Right.
Always this air of, well, did he have something to do with it?
It never was.
He's innocent.
It was like, well, maybe he acted with Moses and did it.

(35:08):
They never did like an apology.
Nothing.
No, it was always it was always the story like we all we all thought something or we allthought Andrew had something to do with it.
And then even when they found out it was Moses, it's still, you know, I'm sure and I'msure there was apologies, but it never stuck.
Right.
It was always like, well, someone must have acted with him.

(35:29):
There must have been an accomplice.
Right.
There was never because everybody creates their own story.
Yeah.
rumors.
Yes.
So there was never like a clean slate of innocence.
And that just, I think, also killed Andrew.
I mean, he he never got.
He never got the embodied.

(35:51):
forgiveness, right?
You know that he so desperately needed and he probably worried that, you know, people arestill whispering.
They're still thinking this.
They're still.
Yeah, yeah, he did.
Because, you know, so then so all that happened and it was tragic.
And, you know, of course there was a capital murder case because the state of Texas goeshungry and hard, you know, with those kinds of things.

(36:13):
Yeah.
And I would, too.
I mean, he brutally murdered someone.
He should get the full extent of punishment.
And so, you know, they did the capital murder.
trial he was found guilty they decided to do the death penalty as the the sentencing forthat and you know everyone was kind of like in a grants they were like yeah this is
something that this is just the justice system working right so you know and I knoweveryone has their opinions about the death penalty but in this case a lot of people were

(36:42):
like no yeah why we have the death penalty yeah like even me you know I did forensic psychforever so you know I've
dealt with all kinds of criminals, everything.
My thing, and this is just my opinion with the death penalty, I just think that they'regetting the easy way out.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like for me, I'm like, they should have to fucking suffer.

(37:04):
They should have to go through everything they did and suffer, suffer, suffer every day.
Oh, believe me.
I think Rochelle's dad was very much so wanting him to get a little bit more of apunishment.
Really?
to jail.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, a lot of people were like this, you know, yes, the death penalty is justin this.
But yeah, a lot of people were like, I want I want more.

(37:26):
Let all that shit happen to him in there.
Yeah.
Everything he did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, know, and I was part of that trial, you know, because I was there that night.
Oh, you know, so I had I had to testify his demeanor.
I had to testify, you know, about his behavior even before that.
So it's not like I was like a big part of it, but I was a voice.

(37:47):
So you were involved.
Yeah.
And I remember, man, even for me during that time, it was a very anxious.
Feeling to be a part of it, know, because it's traumatic even for a onlooker Sure, youknow like so I'm an onlooker basically kind of looking at what happened and it traumatized
me It traumatized the whole town for sure and when things like that happen You alwaysinternalize it and think oh my god, what was my family my person my people and you just

(38:15):
yeah You're around in twilight zone exactly and we're still you know all friends with eachother So, you know and even a friend
that I talked to yesterday just kind of jogged my memory about some stuff.
mean he was part of the trial also.
He testified.
So you know like it impacted our friend group quite a bit.
I mean we're all very affected by what happened and we all are you know still dealing withthe anxiety of it all and

(38:44):
But yeah, so we testified and again, it was very quick for the jury to be like, hey, he'sguilty, you know, and he should die.
Like, it was very quick for them to come to that conclusion.
So when that was over with, man, I checked out.
I was like, bye again.
I'm flying out of here.
I'm gonna have a life.

(39:06):
You know, I was with a guy for a very long time, got engaged.
I mean, I thought it was behind me, right?
I thought this whole situation was
behind me, but it wasn't.
So I moved back to the Dallas area and I got reconnected with all of our old friends.
And I was going through a rough patch.

(39:29):
So how old are you now?
So I was 23.
Yes, I was with this guy and I was engaged, but it just wasn't, it just wasn't feelingright.
It wasn't working out.
And so there was just, it was just falling apart.
And we both kind of knew that.
And yes, it was kind of traumatic and you know, it.

(39:52):
But I just was like, this isn't feeling right for me.
So I wanted to be single.
I wanted to be with my friends.
I wanted to be in my friends group, feel safe again, just with people who could see me,who could see me for who I was, who knew me.
And that's when I became...
Introduced to Andrew again because he was actually going through a breakup as well.

(40:13):
Okay And so we both were going through breakups and we were like, hey, how are you?
Haven't seen you in a long time And it was just this instant connection and it wasn't likean instant romantic connection It was like an instant like I know who you are.
You know who I am
Like, we're friends, like we're like, we just, could see each other for who we were.

(40:37):
He was very protective of me, I was very protective of him.
And then everything just started happening.
And we got together.
OK.
And very quickly after that, we got pregnant with Aiden, my son.
So that's that's when it was just like, we're together now.
Right.
You know, I guess we're together now.
Right.
Now, is he does he see the baby?

(40:58):
Well, she's not a baby.
I guess toddler.
yeah.
So during that time, see, that's that's another thing that was going on before I came backinto the picture.
He was with another woman right after Rochelle.
OK.
And thank God.
for her.
I talked to her actually before this too and you know because I wanted to be like what washe like during that time and she was just like it was so bad like he was so anxious he was

(41:23):
so paranoid he you know really couldn't get over the fact of what happened he was paranoidthat Avery would be taken away and and during that time I think he was trying to be there
for Avery as much as he could but with his mental health being the way he was and how hereally just wasn't
finding any coping mechanisms that work.

(41:44):
I mean, it's not that he couldn't parent, it's just his mental health.
Limited him so yes, he can't even take care of himself.
He can't even take care of himself Yeah, and so, know Rochelle's parents Basically tookover with Avery.
mean, and so they were there for her and things like that and a man I just really wishthat's another thing with the with the timing of all this.

(42:11):
So this would have been like 2005 2006 I mean there really just still wasn't like a
There wasn't an acceptance of men getting therapy at that time.
know, men's mental health was just not really talked about.
Right.
And even like trauma language wasn't really said back then.
know, back then it was like, well, go to therapy if you're having problems.

(42:35):
Right.
It's like there wasn't any science or connection back then that when something traumatichappens to you, your body goes into fight or flight or things like that.
Like now we know all those things.
we know how important it is to get therapy and process repressed emotions.
Right.
But back then he didn't know what to do.
Yes, we had no coping skills, nothing, nothing.

(42:57):
And I mean, he he definitely dove into work.
He became a workaholic, which most men do when they become traumatized.
They, know, they just dive into work.
They do what feels like they can do well.
And so, know, and they have control and they have control.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, know, and they feel like they're an accomplished person when they can work well.

(43:19):
And so that's what he did.
He dove into work.
But at the end of the day, he was still a traumatized 20 year old boy.
you know, his coping back then was, you know, drinking and even, you know, I mean, if youthink about it, we all grew up field parties drinking anyway.
So it's just kind of like, oh, a glass of wine at night won't hurt you.

(43:40):
Well, it can't.
You know after a certain amount of time and so yeah I mean like he just worked and hedrank to numb the pain and He tried to make it work with this girl But you know what from
what she told me he was just he never felt stable and he never Felt like he could reallyget his footing with anything and then you know They even bought a home and they were

(44:04):
trying to be stable, but he just was really radical He just didn't know how to cope duringthat time so when I came along
I didn't know anything was going on.
I just thought he was fine.
I thought he, you know, I just assumed that he got the therapy, he got help, that he wasdoing well because, you know, when we got together, it was just kind of like, well, I feel
safer around you, you feel safer around me.

(44:25):
And then we immediately get pregnant.
And so we're like, well, I guess we're just gonna have to figure this out.
But you see, I think that was the thing with me that he liked about me.
I didn't put any pressure on him.
I was like, look, if you want to be here with me and this baby, you can.
But if you don't want to be here, whatever.
Like, I'm fine.
Right.
Right.
And he was like, no, I'm going to be here.
Like, I like he took it upon himself to show up.

(44:47):
OK.
You know, he took it upon himself to, you know, make sure that we were taken care of.
That's always he always said that to me.
He's like, I want to make sure that you're always taken care of.
I was like, well, heck, yeah, like I'll take it.
Yeah.
Take care of me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, you know, I always just kind of felt like he had it.
because in my eyes he did.

(45:08):
And so, you know, we so we both had really great jobs during the time.
I mean, he had a really cool job to where we would go on vacations all the time.
And, you know, we went to Mexico and cruises a lot.
We brought my son Aiden.
I mean, like we just were living life.
We were having fun.
How was he during that time?
Like with the drinking?

(45:28):
that's the thing.
We both, you know, we both occasionally had glasses of wine at night or think.
But it wasn't bad.
Okay, you know it wasn't bad or anything because we were both working full-time and and Iactually was working in the mental health field in Dallas at the time I was a neuro
therapist I did brainwave analysis and I was doing neurofeedback and so, you know, it'snot like I can be hammered like doing that, you know Conferences I was I was also getting

(45:55):
my masters in counseling, you know, so I was working and going to school We were both verydriven for about ten years.
Okay, and he even you know was working and he wanted
to become a airplane mechanic.
And I was like, heck yeah, let's do it.
So we found a school and he applied for the school and he went to school.

(46:15):
mean, like we were just driven.
We had goals, we had dreams and we were both supporting each other with every single stepthat we took.
It felt great.
It felt like it was it was someone it felt like a relationship that I could really blossomin.
I think he felt that way, too, that he could really
become who he always wanted to be.

(46:38):
And so everything seemed really fine.
mean, we even bought our first home together.
We renovated the attic so there was space for Avery.
mean, you know, because we were, you know, we were having.
Avery's coming for visiting.
Yeah, saw her all through these years.
We had like the standard visitation schedule.
You know, everything was working really well.
Everyone seemed really happy.

(46:59):
Everyone seems really content.
You know, when Andrew was with Avery, they they had their special bond and, know, andthat's the thing with
me too.
I was a wife of a widower and I was like, okay, how can I make this good for both of them?
And so it was always about honoring her.

(47:20):
was always about honoring Rochelle's memory.
I always had a little picture of her by Avery's bed.
She never was not.
so important.
Yeah, she never was not off topic or anything.
Like if Avery brought her up, we would discuss her, you know, and and Andrew, I think itmade him feel comfortable in bringing up
special memories with her too with me.
I he felt safe that he could do that with me.

(47:42):
Right.
Because I was like, it's important to remember our past loved ones.
And especially when it's, you know, a parent.
Yeah.
And, you know, because I think I think maybe in his head he was like, well, if I move on,I can't bring her up.
And it's like, no, let's incorporate her.
Right.
Right.
Well, she's part of the family, too.
Yeah.
You know, let's celebrate her birthday.

(48:03):
Right.
You know, let's do all the things because.
If I were to have passed away, I would have wanted someone to do that for me.
That's what I always thought.
See, I'm the same.
Like, even, yeah, gosh, it's been 20 some years and we still do that stuff.
Yeah.
And so that's how I always treated the situation.
I was like, OK, I got to put myself in her shoes and be like, if if if this was me, Iwould want my daughter's stepmom to do this for me.

(48:32):
So that's always how I played the game.
That's always how I did.
I love that.
Yeah.
like to me it was just like what you were supposed to do right you know didn't even thinktwice about it and I think Andrew really loves that about me too you know how I
incorporated her and how he was able to have those discussions with me about her but atthe same time you could feel the wall you could feel that there was just some things here

(48:53):
that he did not want to talk about right and
I always honored that too, because I was like, you know, maybe he's just not ready to gothere or maybe he's he's maybe that part of him is resolved and he doesn't want to talk
about it.
I'm not going to push it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But now come to find out it was a wall, a shield of a lot of dark, repressed emotions thathe never let anyone see.

(49:19):
Hmm.
And that's the sad thing about it.
How do you know?
because of what happened to him.
You know, like if he would have actually resolved all of those emotions within him, Idon't think he would have spiraled the way he did at the end.
So, but anyway, you know, Andrew was good emotionally for a really long time.

(49:44):
And so during this time of our blossoming of careers, he was like, I got a job opportunityin Alabama.
And I was like, Alabama, where's that?
mean, know, I knew where Alabama was, but like, I was just like, what?
You know, and so he was like, yeah, it's a really great job opportunity.

(50:06):
Let's go.
And I was like,
OK, if you're OK with this, I'm OK with this because I'm a born traveler.
I love to go places I've never been.
Yeah.
So this was exciting for me.
I was like, OK, well, let's move to Alabama.
So we moved to Alabama and everything seemed to at first be going really well.

(50:27):
Avery decided to stay in Texas.
You know, all of her friends and social was there.
You know, we don't feel like it was it would have been good for her to yank her out ofanything or try to convince her to come with us.
She had her own life there.
She had her own friends.
You know, just let her be.
She like high school.
Yeah, she's like a teenager at this point.
So, you know, she's just living her life and I honor that we respect that.

(50:50):
You know, so me and and also during this time, I had another child with Andrew.
So now we have two children together.
So like we're a unit.
Yeah.
So he gets this job in Alabama and we head out.
We go to Alabama and everything seems to be fine even when we first get there.
He of course he's working a lot.

(51:10):
It's a new job.
I understand that so he's gone a lot and I'm just doing my thing I'm taking care of thekids at home.
I'm doing my own stuff, know, I'm meeting friends and community members and things likethat So I'm having a great old time Well, it was around I don't know.
It was like two years into Alabama.
That's when things started shifting with his mood.

(51:34):
So he just was like, he just became very recluse.
It's almost like every time he came home from work, he would rather just sit on the porchand be alone.
And you know, for me, I was like, okay, well, I'll just make sure dinner is made for himwhen he's ready.
And I'll just...

(51:56):
you know, take care of the kids, get them ready for school.
You know, because what else am I going to do?
Yeah.
Like being his face all day, being like, you had a hard day at work.
You need to talk to me.
Like, I'm like that.
You know, and our whole relationship was built off friendship.
Right.
So it's kind of like, OK, I honor that you need your space.
Like, take your space.
But what were you thinking, though?

(52:16):
Like, I just honestly, at the time I was thinking he had a rough day at work.
OK.
You know, or he had a lot of demands.
And he just needs to decompress or something.
You know, because I was always that's just kind of how he was anyway.
Sometimes he just needed some time and space to be with himself.
Then he would regroup and come back into our unit, you know, as a family.

(52:40):
But it was just more and more in Alabama.
I just thought, you know, my gosh, this job that he got must be a lot.
You know, it must be a lot of responsibilities.
It must be a lot going on.
And, you know, he was working in the aviation industry and that is a lot of
You know, I remember because he became an inspector during that time too and I remember hewould say if I sign off on this airplane and if it crashes and kills someone I'm gonna go

(53:07):
to prison right so he was putting a lot of pressure on himself.
That is a lot of pressure.
It is and I remember even one time He worked for this little airline and one of theirplanes did actually crash No one was injured but he immediately when he found that out he
immediately went to all the paperwork to see if she
Yeah, yeah, I mean like he was like, oh thank god.

(53:28):
It was someone else right right I was just like whoa like he really is putting a lot ofpressure on himself with making sure everything's done right making sure that everything
is ran smoothly and I think it's just really Stressed him out.
What if he was like so hyper focused like that?
because he didn't have control with her murder and everything that happened.

(53:51):
Yeah.
He's just going forward and hyper focused on all those things and driving himself crazy.
Exactly.
And I think that's kind of what it boiled down to.
I he was just moving from one fixation to the next.
but it was getting worse.
So so, know, this particular job, a new airlines came through to be in the area.

(54:12):
And so he needed to look for another job.
And so he got actually another job back in Texas.
And I was
supportive.
I was like, do what you need to do.
I mean, like he convinced me that this was the way to go that he needs to move there.
Well, I just became so rooted and established though in Alabama that I was like, you knowwhat?
I think I'm just gonna stay.
You know, we have a home.

(54:32):
just bought a home and I was like, and we are financially okay enough for you to like rentan apartment and me just to stay at the home and make sure the kids are going to school
and things like that.
And I was like, I'll hold down the fort while you go figure out
your next career move because that's kind of how I was thinking.
I was like, okay, this is just he needs a couple of transitional jobs to get to the nextbig one.

(54:58):
So I let him go.
You know, he went to Dallas and worked for a little bit and then he got a job opportunityin Alaska.
and man, he was so excited.
Really?
He was so excited.
He was like, I've always dreamed of living in Alaska.
And I was like, wow, that's a crazy dream.
I've never had that I like traveling, but yeah.

(55:21):
Yeah, I like traveling, but that's cold.
I'm a beach girl.
I don't know about the Alaska thing, but if this is your dream, I support it because Ilove you and I support you.
in my head, again, I was like, this is transitional.
He'll come back around.
Yeah.
Now, has he gone a lot then, obviously?
Yeah.
During this time?
Yeah, he's gone a lot.

(55:41):
I mean, we would visit him about three or four times a year.
OK.
But you know, that's just how we were.
Like, it was it felt really secure still.
Right.
But it also was bringing to light.
could just tell that he was emotionally declining or something like, you know, and that'sthe thing.

(56:03):
He was running away.
He was trying to put distance between us, but I didn't see it like that at the time.
I was more convinced, okay, he's just trying to find the next career move.
But now that I look back on it, I'm like, he was leaving us already.
And, you know, so that was hard to come to that acceptance of that, of that he was tryingto get away from me and the kids to maybe soften the blow of what maybe he was just

(56:37):
detaching.
He was detaching.
Yeah, he was beginning that detachment process.
So anyway, he went to Alaska, helped him move there.
I mean, like got him a little, you know, room to rent type thing.
He was happy for a little bit.
But man,
his mental health really declined in Alaska.
And you hear about that all the time.

(56:58):
You know, the weather, the sunlight.
I mean, just, you know, drinking, you know, it was very culturally accepted to drink a lotmore there than normal.
And I think he fell back into a lot of drinking coping mechanisms when he was in Alaskaand then compounded with no sunlight, raining every day.

(57:20):
I mean, like I went and visited
him a couple of times and I was like I'm miserable.
How are you doing this?
Yeah.
Yeah and I was just you know so even when I was visiting him though I could be I was justlike he's really declining and I would I would say things to him like you need to take

(57:41):
some vitamins or you need to do something you know for your body.
Right.
And he was like no I'm fine I'm fine I'm working I'm doing this you know and
So I was just like, you know what?
If you think you got it handled, I trust that you haven't handled, you know, do yourthing.
I'm holding down the fort.
That's just like literally what I was doing.

(58:03):
I was holding down the fort and I was there for him if he needed me.
But it seems like he was trying to figure it out, even though I could tell he wasemotionally declining.
And then it just got to a point where I was like, you're not doing good at all.
You need to come back home.
I was like, you just need to come back home.
I'm not, no was not gonna be an answer.

(58:26):
You're coming back home.
And this is probably like the first time you ever like kind of demanded, right?
Yeah, very first time I demanded something from him because typically it was just like atrust fall constantly in our relationship.
Like, you like you just do your thing.
But this time I was like, no, something's really off and you need to come back.
So he did.
He put in his resignation.

(58:46):
He came home.
And I was like, OK, let's get on some vitamins.
You know, let's do something.
And was it weird to have him like home?
Yeah, no, because he had been gone.
was weird because he was different now.
He wasn't the same person I had been with for all those years.

(59:06):
And I was like really freaked out by it.
Actually, like what?
What did just?
It was just, Like, no one was home.
Like his eyes, you know, he had these really beautiful blue eyes.
And when I would look into his eyes after Alaska, it was like that spark was not there.

(59:31):
I don't know who was behind those eyes.
And it was really scary for me.
So I was just like, I know this is your body in front of me, but like a stranger.
Yeah, it was a stranger in front of me.
Yeah.
Because even just how he talked about things, he would get really irritated with thingsgoing on in the news.
or things like that.
He would just get really angry very quickly about things that were completely out of ourcontrol.

(59:55):
I'd be like...
goes back to control again.
He can't control anything.
And so he would say something about what was going on on TV and I was like, well, there'snothing we can do about it.
That's like a totally different country.
Right.
And he'd be like, no, this is a real problem.
And he would get really worked up about some stuff.
And I feel like, he's exerting so much energy on things that just don't matter.

(01:00:19):
Let's exert our energy on things that are good for our family.
Like what's for dinner?
Stay right here.
Yeah, like what's for dinner?
Are your clothes clean?
I'm trying to be right here and now, and he's out in some other world having problems andirritations with things that are none of our business.

(01:00:41):
So he was just shifting and changing.
then, you know, even with Avery, he was getting really hard on her about things like youshould do this with your life.
You should do that with your life.
And she would call me being like, whoa, that's like, you know, yeah.
And I'll be like, I know, girl, like, I know, like he's like that with us, too.
Like, it was very dicey for a long time where it was just like, man, if we did anything orsaid anything, you know, and we didn't know what he would react to.

(01:01:07):
He was just very, very tip toeing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The whole walking.
eggshell thing was like real and I just could never figure out
What the heck was going on?
I mean, because, you know, at the same time, I'm still trying to hold down the fort.
I got two kids to raise.
I got to cook dinner.

(01:01:27):
I got to make sure, you know, everything is in order for us to have just a normal dailylife that I was exerting all of my energy on that.
And it was really hard for me to become, you know, a caregiver to my husband for a longtime.
were equals for so long.
We were Eagles.
And then all of sudden I became

(01:01:48):
as caregiver and I was like whoa this was I didn't sign up for this yeah you know I just Isigned up for a husband right not a literal third child because I mean that's what it felt
like I was like oh my gosh like I I'm having to mother him at this point so it was badwhen he moved back from Alaska and the thing is it never got better so he moved back from

(01:02:13):
Alaska in October of 2022
By March.
So March is Rochelle's death anniversary.
he was, like Andrew was doing kind of okay, you know, very irritable, but he was kind ofokay until March.
And then March hit, he brought up the Moses thing.
He brought up how that ruined his life.

(01:02:35):
And I swear this man turned into a tornado.
I mean, the spiral that started from then on out.
just became a tornado of destruction of more paranoid thoughts.
He literally never

(01:02:55):
He never could get his mind calm after that.
And then he finally decided to commit suicide in October.
So from March to October, he suffered.
He suffered in his own mind and his own body.
He couldn't find an outlet.
He couldn't find a coping mechanism anywhere.
And he's not talking to you about any of this?

(01:03:17):
He's he's talking to me, but he's mad.
He's so mad about life, the world.
He's, you know, becoming accused
me of things and I'm trying to be like look like I don't know what world you're in rightbut this is actually a safe environment nothing that you're worried about is happening I
mean I don't know how many times I said that to him nothing you're worried about ishappening everything that you're worried about is not real right and he just never heard

(01:03:46):
me again it was like talking to a stranger it was like talking to someone I didn't evenknow anymore
And it was just so terrifying.
I'm sure.
Because it was like I was saying this to him and it just literally went right through him.
And you guys had like such a trusting relationship for so long.
I mean, for him to be able to go different places and be in different states and God, it'sjust.

(01:04:10):
Yeah.
And that's that's the trauma for me.
The trauma for me.
Yes, it was very traumatic that he died by suicide.
But the trauma for me is that love changed.
I was like, whoa, like I didn't know this could happen.
So that's the trauma for me.

(01:04:30):
It's like, people don't stay the same.
They're not forever.
Yeah.
And, know, and the end, obviously, there's trauma, too, with him committing suicide,because then it's just he took it upon himself to end his suffering.
But then obviously you have survivor's guilt.

(01:04:51):
Right.
You're you know, you're like, well, what did I do for him to come to that conclusion?
Right.
Or could I have done something different?
I remember thinking that sometimes.
Me like, if I if I wouldn't have said that or if I maybe would have said that different,maybe he would
wouldn't have taken it that far.
Right.
And I did think that for a little bit, but now that it's been some time, I'm like, no,there's literally nothing that I could have done.

(01:05:15):
Right.
I actually did everything that I was supposed to do.
You know, I was talking to his family members being like, hey, have you noticed that he'skind of acting strange?
What are they saying?
Well, you know, they were just kind of like, well, maybe he's just going throughsomething.
You know, because that's what you think.
Right.
That's what I was thinking.
He's just going through something.
Yeah.
So, you know, they're like, well, maybe try to tell him this or maybe try to tell himthat.

(01:05:38):
Or, you know, even friends.
My friends would be like, you know, this this looks like something.
Maybe do this.
Maybe try that.
Maybe leave for a week, you know, just to give him some space.
I mean, I tried literally everything and he never got out of that spiral that startedafter Rochelle's death date.
Right.
And, you know, so even

(01:06:01):
So bizarre how he did so well for so long and then...
He did so well for so long and then it's like...
Something just had to have happened for all of those repressed emotions to come back up.
You know, and if you think about it, I mean, it could have just been his age, could havebeen hormones.

(01:06:23):
Sure.
But it could have been Alaska itself, you know, just with the weather.
Maybe it did put him in that threshold of depression too much to where it like all those.
So in his head.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, you know, it could have been a lot of different things, but it was finally themoment.
Where his body and his mind said I can't hold this down anymore Was he did he tell youever like that?

(01:06:47):
felt suicidal or he just doesn't feel like he should be here He never flat-out said thatin the years past.
He would sometimes say I need a reset button Sounds very boomer though.
I mean even my mom is like man.
I wish I had a new body You know, it's it's like, know, so he would say a lot of timeslike I need a reset button as far as like dealing with a

(01:07:10):
You know like because sometimes I think he felt a lot of guilt for not being there atcertain times or you know Not knowing how to handle the situation when she was younger So
that's what I always thought he was talking about and I would always just say hey, youknow You just got to start where you're at, you know I go and move forward Yeah, but he
never flat-out told me I feel like I want to die

(01:07:33):
Yeah, you know, and I think that's the complicated thing about suicide.
I don't think a lot of people know they want to die until the day they die.
That moment.
It's that.
Yeah, it's that moment where they're like, I can't handle this pain anymore.
Right.
And I need to take it upon myself to end this.
And I really think that's what he did.
He I think he just got to a point where he was just like, I literally can't live inside ofmy body.

(01:08:00):
I've got to get out.
Did he act any different like the days before like to where you would have seen like or Imean Yeah, it was like the same erratic behavior kind of combative Angry, you know, and so
I was just thinking well, he's just on it again, right?

(01:08:22):
You know, I'll just manage and that's what that's what was depressing for me during thattime, too I was navigating it was it was it felt like I was navigating
navigating a small boat through a hurricane.
I literally that usually doesn't go very well.
with two kids in the boat, right?

(01:08:44):
You know, right.
And dogs and cats, you know, like we're I'm trying to keep the sailboat afloat while thismassive hurricane is trying to drown me.
Right.
And that's what I was doing for months with him.
you know, every time I put my sail up and would start to get some some movement, it wouldjust get right down.

(01:09:05):
Yeah.
And it exhausted me.
It just exhausted me to the point where it was just like, man, I have redone this sail somany times.
I have fixed this this boat so many times to keep going.
And you keep smashing into it.
And, you know, so right before he he ended his life, I was kind of getting to
to the point too where I was just like, I'm exhausted.

(01:09:27):
I don't know how much longer I can do this.
Did you tell him that?
Well, and I told him that in a sense where it was like, maybe I should move back in withmy mom or something.
Maybe we need an extended break.
Right.
Because I was just so exhausted trying to hold it all together for him.
Yeah.
And I was like, so in my head, was like, maybe this is the moment where it's like, I justneed to pick up and move myself.

(01:09:52):
It was like, was patching this
boat for months surrounded by this hurricane which was him just this out-of-controlhurricane
And yeah, like, you know, the thought came up, maybe I should leave myself.
Maybe I should pick up the boat with me and the kids and move it somewhere calmer,somewhere safer, you know, so we could at least rest.

(01:10:15):
Right.
You know, because that was another thing that was going on during those months.
I prayed every single night for peace.
I was like, please, God, bring us peace.
I don't care how you do it.
Right.
We need peace.
And.
Sometimes you have to trust how that happens because how it happened was the hurricanestopped.

(01:10:40):
Andrew ended his life.
And of course, you know, when you're praying for peace, you don't think that's that.
Yeah.
But if that's how it was supposed to be, I have to be OK with that.
I have to have acceptance for that.
And that was kind of the the thing when that all happened.
So how Andrew did this was interesting.

(01:11:01):
And it parallels Rochelle's story a lot, which is kind of creepy, but shows how connectedthey were.
So Andrew himself went missing.
So I had a couple of clients.
I worked at this little office down the road from our house.
And I had a few clients that morning and I told him and he was like, OK.

(01:11:26):
And I came back and I was doing some things upstairs and he took a shower.
He grabbed a few things, got dressed and he said, I'll see you when I see you.
And I was like, OK.
Is that a normal thing for him to say?
No.
He said, I'll see you when I see you.
And I was like, whatever you need to do, buddy.
you because I was just like.

(01:11:49):
but he's going through something, whatever he needs to do, you know, I'm here for it.
Yeah, need the award for the most understanding wife on the planet.
Yeah.
For sure.
I mean, like, I was just, you know, I didn't even ask him where he was going.
I like, if he needs a break, he needs a break, you know?
And I got on a phone call.
I was just doing my thing.
And I came downstairs after the phone call and I grabbed some leftover pizza and I waslike, where'd he go?

(01:12:14):
I was like, his truck's outside.
My car's here.
Where'd he go?
So I walked to the basement.
He's not down here.
I walked outside to the backyard.
He's not there.
And I'm still eating this pizza pizza.
Like where, where is he?
And so we had cameras all through the house.
And so I started looking at the cameras.
And I mean, this is a good 30 minutes, 45 minutes after I'm like, where is he that Idecided to check the cameras?

(01:12:39):
And he literally just had a backpack and walked out the front door.
Really?
Yeah, and I saw where he walked and I was like, he just left.
I was like, he just literally walked out the front door with a backpack.
Where did he go?
You know, so I'm like, OK, and I had to pick up the kids from school.

(01:13:03):
So at first I had about, I don't know, 30 minutes before I had to pick up the kids fromschool.
So I jumped in the truck, you know, because I just got those keys first and I starteddriving around the neighborhood just being like, I wonder why he's walking around the
neighborhood.
Right.
I mean, like, did he really just snap?
You know, did he just like his brain?
You know, I mean, like, yeah, he just left and I couldn't find him in the neighborhood.

(01:13:26):
So I was like, OK, I've got to get the kids be a responsible adult, be a responsibleparent.
You know, go get your children from school.
So I go get them and he's still not back home when I, know, because I was kind of thinkingthat I was like, maybe he'll be back home by the time I get home from getting the kids.
Right.
And he wasn't there.
So I dropped my older son off and me and my younger daughter, we kept looking for him andI was driving around.

(01:13:54):
Do you have a phone?
That's the thing.
I kept calling his phone.
I kept texting his phone being like hey, where'd you go?
Why aren't you answering?
You know, so I'm driving around for a good hour and I'm finally just like, okay, I got totake a break.
I gotta take a second.
something's not right, but you know, let me just go get some food.

(01:14:15):
So I picked up some food for the kids and myself and maybe, Andrew, wherever he is, goback home.
He's still not there.
So I'm just like, OK, like just chill, like don't freak out, just chill.
And, you know, we eat our food and then I'm like, I'm going to call his phone again.
I'm just going to call it again.
And this time I was in the living room when and I heard his phone.

(01:14:38):
It was ringing from a toolbox.
He left his phone.
So that's when I was like, oh my God, he left his phone because who leaves their phone?
Right, right.
And if you do, you go back and get it.
And plus he was on that phone all the time.
I mean, he was on YouTube all the time, you know, griping about everybody, you know?

(01:15:00):
I mean, like that was like his second job was griping about everybody on YouTube and heleft his phone.
And so I was like, whoa.
Now I know for sure something's not right.
Yeah, so the first thing I did was text his mom I was like, yeah, I just found his phoneSomething's not right and then I called the police

(01:15:21):
I was just like, this is not OK.
So I called the police and someone comes out.
They basically, you know, take all my information.
I told them how he would have been behaving, you know, and everything, because they askedthat, you know, how was your mental health and everything?
And I told them.
And, know, and I was just keeping a very positive demeanor.

(01:15:42):
was like, look, he has been going through a lot lately.
I really just think maybe he'll be back tonight.
Maybe he just needed a break.
I don't know why he left his phone.
It is really odd but you know, maybe he'll come back and you know, even the cops was like,yeah Typically these people come back, know type thing they were even being very positive,
right?
I don't think they wanted me to panic or fret or anything.

(01:16:04):
And so we go to bed that night and I'm just like, okay, he'll show up tonight It'll justshow up randomly in the middle of the night girl.
I wish I could have your calm
you
Can you make sure you leave me some of that?
You know well I have to be calm yeah, I have to be this grounded person, but it's reallyhard Yeah, I mean I can attest to the fact that it's very hard.

(01:16:29):
Yeah under crazy circumstances to be that so I applaud you so much because I mean I just Ithink I'm like this because you know
I feel like when if I if I can remain steady and grounded and calm in a situation, theneveryone else around me will be steady and calm and be clear headed to kind of do what I

(01:16:56):
need them to do.
Like I needed to be calm with the police because the police need to be calm also to have aclear mind about what to do next.
You know, and even my kids, they don't need to see me panic.
They need to be calm also.
I don't want to freak them out or anything.
So it's like I know that I ripple effects.
the emotions in the room.

(01:17:16):
know that about myself.
And so I got to stay calm the way everyone else stays calm.
And so I'm trying to be calm.
I'm trying to be really grounded, steady and hopeful.
Right.
Very hopeful.
So he doesn't come back that night.
I take the kids to school the next morning.
I'm like, I'm telling the kids, your dad's Yeah, somewhere right now.

(01:17:38):
Right.
Ha ha.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He'll be back.
Don't worry.
You know, all that kind of stuff.
Take them to school.
So when I took them to school that next day, that's when I was like kind of more in I gotto find him myself.
So a couple of weeks before that, he joked a little bit sometimes, maybe I should just behomeless.

(01:17:59):
And I was like, of course you want to be homeless, you're a dude.
know, like what dude doesn't want to try that out?
So I'm just like, but I started thinking about it seriously.
I was like, wait, did he actually mean it?
So I was like.
Maybe he meant it.
And you know, he loved hanging out in the woods.
We loved these trails in the area.
We would walk them periodically together.

(01:18:19):
And you know, it was just so beautiful.
know, northern Alabama is just a beautiful area, lots of beautiful trails.
So in my head, I was like, he's probably camping out on those trails.
Just in my head, I was like, maybe he's on those trails.
So I put on my tennis shoes.
I grab a backpack.
I put some Nuchagrain bars in it, some water, because I'm like, I'm on a hunt.

(01:18:41):
I'm hunting for my husband.
I got to find him.
And I'm not telling anybody what's going on.
I don't want people to be like, well, did Andrew lose it?
And judge him.
Yeah, and judge him.
I didn't want that.
I kept this very private.
No one knew what was going on.
But like maybe three or four people.
because I did not want to find him and then being like, oh, why'd you freak out and dothat?

(01:19:06):
You really scared Sarah.
Like I did not want anyone judging him.
Cause I already knew what he went through.
I was very cognizant of the fact that he had already gone through trauma.
He had already gone through that kind of life and I was not about to make that worse.
So I kept this very private.
No one knew what was going on.

(01:19:27):
And so I'm looking for him and I'm screaming his name and, know, and I'm walking thesetrails and I'm, you know, trying to think in my head, where could he be?
And I was out there all day.
I mean, for six hours just walking around.
That was his work like looking for him or he was working a schedule where it was like fourdays on four days off.

(01:19:48):
OK, it was during the four days off.
the work.
So they're not like wondering where he's at yet or anything.
But I definitely did reach out to a couple
of his workmates being like, have you heard of him?
And they were like, no.
And then even his boss was like, well, I mean, it's technically his day's off, you know?
So, but he was like, well, let's check back in when he's supposed to work, you know?

(01:20:09):
So until that time, I would took it upon myself to try to find him, just me.
And that's when I realized after that day of searching for him myself, that's when I waslike, I need help.
I can't do this.
can't parents.
I can't be sane right now looking for this guy by myself.
Right.
So that's when it just came to the conclusion that I should probably hire a privateinvestigator.

(01:20:34):
And I was connected to a few people who knew someone who was already doing that work.
And, know, sometimes it, you know, private investigators take it upon themselves to acceptthe case or not.
Right.
And so I had a couple of people who knew this guy be like, hey, like this is what's beengoing on.
You know, she needs
He help like right now.
Yeah.
And so he came out to the house.
He took a couple of questions.

(01:20:55):
I gave him some of his belongings, you know, like things that he would wear.
We watched the cameras that way he would know what he looked like, how he walked, thingslike that.
And I was just like, I'm basically putting all my eggs in this basket that you're going tofind them.
And he was like, I'm going to find them.
and we even talked and we talked.

(01:21:17):
was like, even with him, the hope was we're going to
him alive.
He's probably just out drunk walking around wanting to be homeless.
Right.
He probably found a shopping cart that he really likes.
know, I mean, we're trying to be positive.
Like we're like he already found a tent, you know, I mean, we're trying to remain the mostpositive.

(01:21:39):
But I even said, go, well, what if he fell down and broke his foot and he's stuck and he,you know, he's like, well, then we'll get a medical care, you know, like that kind
I never once thought he was going off to commit suicide.
yeah, you know never crossed my mind.
I just always was just like he's under a bridge somewhere.

(01:22:00):
Mm-hmm.
So
He's out looking for him now and I can kind of just take a break now.
Now I can just be like, okay, so where are we time wise now?
So this is like three, day three or four into the PI is starting.
Now are the police looking to the police are looking to, mean, the police did say, youknow, on that first day that I called that they were going to, you know, look in areas

(01:22:22):
that they thought he might be at, which were like, you know, homeless camps.
Right.
And I even myself went to a place where a lot of homeless people went because I already,I, my friend told me, you know, you really need to make
missing persons flyers.
Right.
And I was like, oh my God, like this is getting real.
Right.
You know, this is this is actually happening.
So I made a few flyers and I mean, she's the one who took them into gas stations andthings like that because I couldn't even do it.

(01:22:48):
I couldn't even walk in somewhere being like, hey, my husband's missing.
Can you put this on the front door?
Like, I mean, what?
Yeah.
Like that was just like not I couldn't even express that way to real.
Yeah.
So she did all that for me.
But yeah.
I it was like, yeah, around the fourth or fifth day, it's real blurry when I think aboutit.

(01:23:12):
you know, so I was kind of taking a break from looking for, I was just trusting thatthings would happen.
And that's when I saw the private investigator and my friend drive up.
And that's when I knew.
I was like, they found him.
And then the private investigator got out of his car and just had this real sullen look onhis face.
And I was like, he's dead.

(01:23:33):
I just knew it.
And then after that, to be honest, I kind of browned out.
I didn't black out.
I browned out.
I could kind of see what was going on in my peripherals.
could kind of see, could kind of hear some things.
I heard him tell me we found him dead.
He had he had strangled him.

(01:23:54):
You know, he had hung himself.
I heard those things.
But like.
It was not like I was not in my body, right?
I was Sarah was gone.
Yeah, and it reminded me of probably how he felt when he found out about Rochelle.
It reminded me of that, about that kind of trauma that he probably experienced when allthat happened.

(01:24:18):
Yeah, because it's so surreal.
Yeah.
And I mean, my friend said, Sarah, I don't know if you remember this, but you literallystarted wailing.
And I was like, I don't even remember.
Mm-hmm.
She was like you literally went straight to the ground and started wailing She's like itreminded me of like those movies that you watch about army, know, they tell an army wife

(01:24:41):
right your husband's that passed away She was like it was literally something out of themovie.
Yeah, I was like, well, thank God.
I don't really remember it You know, I will tell you that's normal Yeah, because I didsame I did the same thing in the hospital like when I knew that there was no chance Yeah,
like for my first husband to to make it because he was brain
But everything you're describing, I felt the same.

(01:25:05):
Just like that.
Everything feels like...
beautiful.
I think it's like a beautiful way for your body to be like, I'll take it from here.
And I didn't remember that for a long time.
That was people telling me.
But over the...
mean, it's been 24 years for me.
But hopefully it doesn't come back to you because it's not...

(01:25:26):
I don't really want to know.
Yeah, it's not a wonderful thing.
And I mean, again, I had glimpses.
I had glimpses of, OK, this is what's happening.
This is real.
Things like that.
But yeah, like my body just kind of halfway shut down.
And again, I think it's a beautiful thing that our bodies do for us.
It us not break.
Right.
You know, because to handle all of that stress all at once, it probably would have brokeme completely.

(01:25:51):
For sure.
Fragmented my soul.
And I think it keeps you from that.
Does so.
I was very.
thankful that my body went into survival mode and helped me get through that, but then Ihad to get real with myself.
I had to then be like, okay...
The coroner is on the phone now asking me what to do with him.
So where is he?

(01:26:11):
Where do they find him?
He was about two miles away from our house.
He walked and he hung himself in the woods just randomly in this little patch of woodsright off a road, right off a main road there.
I mean, nothing special.
Yeah, he just he just was walking through and found and they're sure it wasn't foul play.

(01:26:35):
Do you leave a note?
yeah.
He left several notes.
It was a very by the suicide notes for everybody.
I mean, you know, he was so close to a lot of businesses on the road that even the privateinvestigator was like, yeah, we use this camera from this building to watch him literally

(01:26:57):
just walk into the woods and do it.
I mean, like, there was no question about it.
Wow.
I know.
And even the private investigator was like he had plenty of time to walk and think aboutwhat he was doing.
Mm You know, so this was a this was a choice.
He wasn't like intoxicated or anything.

(01:27:18):
He was he was.
But even the private investigator was like, I don't know if he was that that intoxicated.
mean, like this midday.
Right.
Right.
But he he made a decision.
It was very much so a decision.
No foul play.
Nothing like that.
And so did his note bring you any peace?

(01:27:40):
Did it make it worse?
Both.
So that was that's a that one.
That one stung me because, you know, like I said, during that time, he was very irritated.
He was very angry at the world.
Yeah.
And some of his notes to some of the people were good and calm.
But the notes to kind of me and the kids were a little bit.

(01:28:02):
irritated, a little bit agitated towards us.
And again, I think it's just because...
You're closest to him.
Yeah, exactly.
And, know, I was caregiving him and I was kind of became his mom.
And so, of course, who are we most mad at?
Our moms.
We'll get upset.
Right.
You know, so it's kind of like, you know, in his note, yes, he put sentiments that I loveyou, things like that.

(01:28:24):
But then there was also this irritation there.
And I was like, ugh.
And then plus again, he was very paranoid during that time.
so the paranoia, I think, took over his note.
I was the last note that he wrote in.
Man, his his writing became very slurred, you know, compared to the other notes.

(01:28:44):
Right.
So by the time he got to me, it was a very agitated, slurred type of writing.
Just something in him took over.
You know, again, I didn't I knew that whoever wrote that note wasn't my husband.
Right.
It was something else.
so when I got the notes back, I cut out the part that said I love you and I burned it.

(01:29:10):
So I was just like, you know what you have to do?
You know, this ain't my this is not my story.
Yes.
Yes.
You're like, that's not love.
I was like, well, in my eyes, I was like, that wasn't even my husband.
Right.
Like this was some weird creature inside of him.
Right.
You know, like that, I'm just going to burn it.
Right.
So and it was kind of the same with the kids, too.

(01:29:31):
I kind of I did cut out some parts, you know, because he was very paranoid about our kidshaving friends or being associated with certain people or, you know, like
It was weird.
was the paranoia was so high.
was like, okay I'm not gonna totally burn their notes But I am gonna cut out the piecesthat literally don't make sense.
They're just like mental illness more for them to try to process and understand Yeah,exactly.

(01:29:54):
And so I kept those little parts and you know, maybe I'll show those to the kids later,but it just wasn't him
This wasn't him.
That's not how I was going to honor him.
Right.
You know, and that's what it came down to, too.
It was like, OK, you know, so during someone the private investigator told us, I kind ofbrowned out, didn't know.

(01:30:15):
But that's when I had to start shifting gears.
That's when I had to get into the mode of, OK, now I got to tell the coroner what funeralhome to take him to.
How do you how do you do all that?
I remember he asked me that and I was like, I don't even know what is even around here inthe private investigator just kind of
took my phone was like, just take him here, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was like, thank you.

(01:30:36):
Well, was good.
That was awesome.
Yeah.
was like, I don't know where you should take him.
And then that's when I was like, oh crap, I got to start telling people.
Yeah, like that I found out, you know, so that's when I called Avery was with one ofRochelle's family members and I called him and I told him and I was like, you need to tell
her I can't tell her I can't tell her now that both of her parents are dead.

(01:31:00):
Right.
I mean, like, no, I can't.
So I told him and he told her and she was visiting him in Chicago at the time.
So it was kind of a it was a good thing that she was there.
And then I had the private investigator call Andrew's mom because I was not going to dothat.
Yeah, I mean I could hear her screaming on the phone, you know, like I was not going to dothat And then that's when I was like, okay, I to tell the kids

(01:31:26):
So I had to really regroup.
had to get it together, you know?
That hold down the fort, get it together, you know?
Walked myself in the house.
The private investigator took me to my son first.
We went outside.
I told Aiden, you know, in just shock.
shock on his face.

(01:31:47):
They're how old?
So at the time Aidan was 13 and and and my daughter Skylar was seven.
Yeah and so I told Aidan he just you know you could kind of tell he browned out too alittle bit because you know we just experienced a week of me saying dad's missing.

(01:32:07):
Right.
know and I'm sure they were hopeful too and then I just had to tell him that his dad died.
I mean like
Did they want to know how?
So not at the moment, not at the moment, but later on I did.
They did want to know.
But with Aidan, when I first told him, you know, he was kind of shocked and the privateinvestigator was like, it's OK if you cry.

(01:32:28):
And I thought that was really good for him to say to him, especially as a young boy.
Right.
Because it's OK to experience those emotions.
Right.
that.
And I just told Aidan, I was like, look, we're going to get through this.
We're we're going to make sure that Skylar remembers dad the way that we remembered him,because, know,
Aiden had the best years of dad.
Aiden had those really good years of him.

(01:32:49):
So my son knew Andrew's heart the most, knew that playful dad, that doting dad, the sillydad, the mechanic dad.
mean, like that's what my son knew the most.
And so I kind of, gave Aiden a job.
I was like, look, we're going to make sure that dad is remembered like this.

(01:33:12):
And he was like, okay, I can do that.
was a lot of resolve right then and there.
But then I had to tell Skylar.
And Skylar, she's a little girl and...
You know, a lot of the girls that she was going to school with come from separated parentsand things like that.

(01:33:33):
And I remember like a month before that she was just now learning about like step moms andstep dads and who they were and stuff like that.
And so I told her, I go, know, daddy's in heaven now.
We found him and he's in heaven.
And she goes, does this mean I get a stepdad?
You're right.
I was like, maybe.
Right.

(01:33:54):
Talk about that later.
But you know, that's how her little brain computed it.
Like, OK, if if dad's in heaven, do I get another dad?
That's immediately what she thought.
Immediately she was like, well, where's my next dad?
Like, how do I have a dad again?
Right.
And it's sad.
It's sad to think about it.
That's where her brain first went.
But then, you know, it didn't quite hit her.

(01:34:16):
I could tell it didn't hit her.
Right.
You know, she was just like, OK, well, dad's in heaven.
Like, what does that even mean?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So then after that, we got ahold of Avery finally.
And, you know, this is when everyone's starting to get called.
This is when my friends are like calling my mom, my sister, and they're driving.
I mean, it's a nine hour drive from Texas to Alabama.

(01:34:39):
And they
Yeah, they immediately pack up start driving towards me because you know We all didn'tknow what to do while he was missing right and so but when they found out man They were on
the car on the way and then
Avery even to her her family member booked her a flight immediately to come to Alabama.

(01:35:00):
and so everyone got together.
She's close with you.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're really close.
And so everyone got together.
And once we got together, I was like, OK, I got to go to the funeral home now and figurethis out, you know.
And that's when all the gory details kind of came up, you know, about like how he was.

(01:35:21):
sitting there for so long and you know how we couldn't see his body, how we couldn't dofingerprint stuff, how that was just out of the question.
Oh, yeah.
So did he do it like right away, like that first day?
He did that very first day.
And, know, it just took that amount of time to find him.
How did they even, how did that investigator know to like?

(01:35:45):
Well, I remember one of the questions I asked him when I hired him.
I was like, can you tap into highway cameras?
And he goes, yes, I have the authority to do that, basically.
OK.
And I wanted to make sure to know that because remember in my head, I was like, he must behomeless.
He's hitchhiking.
He's in Atlanta.

(01:36:06):
So I need to have someone who can tap into those cameras to see what truck he got into orwhatever.
Well, he just simply went two miles down the road.
But he did use cameras, you know, of businesses and the highway and stuff andintersections to find out.
good.
Yeah.
So it was pretty quick once he got on, you know, where his location was.

(01:36:30):
So then you guys are at the funeral home and they're telling you can't see him oranything?
Yeah, the funeral home.
He was just like, absolutely not.
can't see his body.
We're not going to even let you think that.
And that's when I was just like, whoa, OK.
So that was scary.
That was scary because I was just like, OK, this is really a situation where I'm probablynot going to have a lot of closure, you know?

(01:36:54):
And, you know, of course, his mom also and her family are headed here to Alabama,
So I set up the funeral for the next day she you know his mother desperately wanted somesort of a viewing and I was like trying to tell her like they're not gonna allow us to
have a viewing but he did say that he could let the body be in a certain room for acertain amount of time before they cremated him and You know, so she was she was like,

(01:37:19):
well, I just want to be in the room with this body You know and it can be covered and allthat kind of stuff and he was like, okay I can do that because we have the special
equipment where he's contained and you know things like that
So in my head, I was like, OK, well, that that'll be her thing.
I'm fine.
I don't need to see anything.

(01:37:39):
You know, we're just going to have a little service like she wanted some songs played.
And I was like, whatever songs you need.
I mean, she just lost her baby.
Yeah.
Like I'm to do everything I can to make sure this woman feels like that she's OK.
Right.
You know, because that's that's just who I am.
You know, even the cremation stuff, I was like, look, you're getting half.
I'm getting half like that's right.
Right.
You know, I never once was like, no, this is

(01:38:00):
mine.
This is all mine.
Like, no, like this is this is a terrible situation that we all need closure from.
And so, but yeah, when so they had his body in this room and I didn't know it was going tobe just in this room when we came to the funeral home and I walked into the room and saw
the, you know, bed with the sheet over it.

(01:38:22):
And man, I was like, holy crap.
It like hit you.
It hit me.
I was like, this is real now.
This is real now.
I mean, it like literally sucked the air out of me.
And I just I had to sit there for a second.
I was crying and I was just like, OK, this is real now.
But I didn't realize how good that was for me because, know, after she got her time to sitwith him, then I sat with him and I, you know, put my hand on him and I let the kids put

(01:38:51):
their hand, you know, on him.
We all got a moment of closure.
Did they understand why they couldn't see him?
No.
Yeah, yeah, they just they just knew that he was there.
There was a sheet over that was Yeah, was enough Yeah, and we did have like a littlespecial service for him.
The songs were played the the preacher that spoke You know, I told him, you know whathappened and he made it very it was a very good Speech, you know that he did kind of on a

(01:39:18):
whim, right?
It gave us a lot of closure and so but yeah I mean and then it was done and then you know,he goes and gets cremated and I mean like what a weird feeling
Right.
And you're like, now what?
Yeah.
Now.
Yeah.
So, you know, now the whole town's finding out.
And that's the thing, too.
So Rochelle's situation in his situation in the form of death was very, like I said, theparallels, you know, like they were both missing for a certain amount of time and all that

(01:39:46):
kind of stuff.
And and.
I was very open about what happened to Andrew.
I know a lot of women, if their husbands commit suicide, sometimes they don't tell thewhole truth because there's such a stigma with it.
know, because immediately they are going to feel like they're being accused of something.
Like, well, you must have driven him to this situation for him to do this.

(01:40:09):
You know?
that's so sad.
It is sad.
And, you know, but it's the truth.
It's just what happens.
But I was just like, no, I am not going to sit here and be like, Andrew just died innatural
causes like, nope, he died of suicide and this is why.
And I think just that pure kind of frequency of like truth and being grounded and steadyabout it made the whole community be like, all right, well, let's give her everything that

(01:40:38):
we got as a community, let's support her.
And I mean, I got so much support.
I mean, I was getting demos left and right.
Someone started me a go fund me.
mean, like, like everyone was messaging me being like, you were so brave for telling thetruth and being honest about the situation and how you're handling it.
And I was like, how else am I supposed to do this?

(01:41:01):
It's a lot harder for people to talk shit about the truth.
You know, dang girl.
Yeah, so true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I was just out there with it.
I was like, this is what happened.
He was struggling.
This is his history.
Because, know, that's another thing.
Andrew was so private that when we moved to Alabama, it's not like I was telling everybodyabout his first wife.
Right.
It's not like I was like, oh, yeah, you know, Andrew's first wife was murdered.

(01:41:23):
Right.
Right.
He's a daughter.
He's been struggling and he's been struggling.
Yeah.
It's not like I said anything.
They just all thought, oh, he's just a normal person.
Right.
Who's got, you know, who just moved here.
And so I was very private.
So when they
started finding out what was going on.
They were like, oh, this makes a lot of sense and Sarah needs our support.
Oh, I love that.
And I mean, like the kids, I mean, the kids got so much support to from the schools and,you know, grief center that they started going to.

(01:41:53):
And even so this is a little bit of a plug, but it's so important for people who have gonethrough this.
So there's this organization called Project Unbroken.
Unbroken Project Unbroken Project Unbroken.
And they it's a lady that it's so interesting because you know after something like thishappens to you some of us are like how can I What can I do to make this better like how

(01:42:17):
can I help and even myself?
was like maybe I can you know create a Plan maybe I can create something for kids or youknow something to help kids of suicide go through this You know or you know you want to
help you know I was even thinking in my head I was like maybe I can start a summer campfor kids who have gone through this
Right.
You just think of everything.
Well, I stumbled upon her on Instagram and she had just literally just started ProjectUnbroken, which is a nonprofit that raises money for kids to do extracurricular

(01:42:47):
activities, kids of suicide.
And I was like, oh my gosh, I I'm into this.
I support this.
You know, this will give me an outlet.
This will help me channel my grief.
Right.
And so I started telling everybody about it.
I was like, you need to donate to this.
You need to donate to that.
I talked to
the creator Trina on the phone.
mean, same experience.
Her husband committed suicide and she needed a way to channel her grief.

(01:43:12):
And that's how she did it.
And so, you know, so the community just surrounded the kids.
And then I found this nonprofit and they surrounded the kids.
mean, my son's about to go on a band trip, all funded by, you know, this organization.
My my daughter, she she got yoga right afterwards to help kind of heal her body with theorganization.

(01:43:34):
She's doing
seeing lessons right now because of the organization, because those things are soimportant to help your body release any kind of emotions that are trapped and to help you.
on positive.
Yeah.
Focus on what you can build on now.
The storm is over.

(01:43:54):
Let's rebuild.
The hurricane's over.
Right.
So now it's cleanup time.
so these people who stepped into my life after this
are all part of the cleanup crew.
And I'm just literally extremely thankful for every single person who has entered my lifeafter this.
Because I know without a doubt that they're part of my rebuilding now.

(01:44:18):
And because I've been a year and a half to yeah, like that's not long.
It's not.
And but and I trust so much the things that have happened since his death that I feel likeI'm able to rebuild faster because I'm like, yes, that feels right.
Yes, that feels right.
You're new.
OK, you're doing something, you know.
Right.
So I'm just trusting the whole process that that this doesn't have to be a total tragedy.

(01:44:46):
This can be something that I can
This can be an opportunity for me to relearn who I am and rebuild again in a way thatmaybe I needed to.
that is healthier for me now than what it was 20 years ago.
Well, yeah, I mean, you were living for him.
I know.
much.
I was.
I was living for him.

(01:45:06):
Go do what you need to do.
Go for you, for you.
I'll do this.
I'll take care of this.
Yeah.
Which is your whole life you were taking care of while he did his thing.
And now I kind of get to do it the way I want to do it.
And it's not that I'm being wild and crazy and free or anything.
I still have responsibilities.

(01:45:27):
I still have children that I'm raising.
I'm still a responsible adult.
You're still grieving all the things.
Yeah, I'm still grieving.
But at the same time, I just get to pick and choose.
I get to pick and choose my light and I also get to pick and choose my darkness.
You know, I have both dark and light in me and I get to pick and choose now that balance.

(01:45:52):
That day-to-day balance that I need to have with both of those aspects of myself.
And I think a lot of people look to me now as like, you know, someone who's like, my gosh,like she really has it together.
But how much work it took to get here can't go, you know, like it's not like I snap myfingers like this.

(01:46:14):
Right.
mean, there were days I couldn't get out of bed.
There was days where I was like, man, am I suicidal?
Like, what's going on here?
Right.
You know?
And so I really had to dig my heels in and be like, I can do
this, can rebuild from this and get out of this.
OK.
So good.

(01:46:34):
Yeah, that's great.
And your kids are seeing that, too.
Yes.
And, you know, I think that's another thing about grief.
A lot of parents, I think, hide their grief from their children thinking that it'sprotecting them.
And I let my kids see everything.
Right.
I mean, sometimes I'll put on my headphones and I'll listen to purposely really sad music.

(01:46:57):
and I'll do the dishes or something.
I'll just be crying.
Just get it out.
Yeah.
And my son will be like, my gosh, mom.
And I'm like, I'm just having a bad day.
It's part of my healing process.
Yeah, it's of my healing.
He's like, you know, but he sees that.
So for him to see me grieve makes it OK for him to grieve.

(01:47:19):
But it's real.
It's OK to do it.
It doesn't have to be perfect.
Yeah.
All the things.
Yeah.
And like, you know, right after I cry, heck, let's go see a movie.
You know, let's let's do something else.
Right.
And so I think it's good for me or it's good for the kids and even for me, you know, togrieve out loud because I don't want there to be a stigma around it.

(01:47:41):
I don't want there to be a stigma that, you just got to push it down and hold it together.
It's like, no, like there's there's got to be some moments where my kids are like, OK,it's OK to grieve because mom grieved.
Yes.
So hopefully this whole experience
has made them wiser also that, you know, emotions are real, they're okay, and that you canwork through them.

(01:48:06):
You can cry and then literally laugh right afterwards.
Yeah.
All the time.
I still do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's in there's, you know, grief isn't linear either.
I mean, there's some days where that week that he was missing feels like it was right now.
Right.
You know, and that grief all wells back up in me and I I re cry about it.

(01:48:27):
And that's another thing that's been going on too.
speaking of Rochelle's murderer, his execution has now been set.
The date is very soon.
It's the 23rd, right?
That's my birthday.
I know I know heard kind of saying that I'm like, my god, that's my birthday.

(01:48:49):
Yeah Yeah, and he so that that's another thing.
So Andrew had already been Passed away for a year and that's when Avery got the phone callabout the death penalty And she called me and I immediately started crying.
I was cuz for one I was like, my god like

(01:49:10):
Yes, thank God this chapter can close.
I was like, this chapter needs to close.
And then I'm also crying because I'm like...
Why isn't Andrew here for this?
Why am I doing this?
Right.
You know, this was his situation.
Why am I going to be the one that has to hold this?

(01:49:31):
So it was a very strange way to get the news because I wasn't sure whether to be happy orsad or I didn't know what to feel.
I just immediately started crying because I was just relieved in one sense, but then sadthat he's not here.
Probably little angry, too.
Like, yeah, yeah.
And that's OK, too.
I mean, I was just feeling it.
at And so, so then that's when all that adventure started, you know.

(01:49:55):
So they set the dates and that's been bringing up a lot of repressed emotions in mebecause, I was part of that, that court case.
And so, you know, now I'm thinking about all those things and I'm, kind of, you know,anxious about things again.
And you know, it's weird, you know, Andrew and I were together for so long.

(01:50:18):
We obviously picked up on each other's energies all the time.
And I think it's weird to say this, but I feel like a part of me.
It's almost like something within me is him and he is re grieving also because there'ssome times where I will just get upset and re grieve the whole death penalty, the murder,

(01:50:42):
everything.
I will just be grieving.
And I'm like, wait a minute, this is like not mine.
Right.
And I feel like it's Andrew's grief coming through me.
Well, and you have so many emotions related to that, too.
And then your daughter or his daughter.
I'm sure you consider her your daughter.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Just the emotions behind all of that.

(01:51:04):
And then his death too.
Girl, you probably have.
5,000 different things going through your head right now.
Yeah.
And it's totally understandable.
I do.
my memory is terrible now because I do have so much going through my head.
have grief.
have planning.
have all this stuff going on.
mean, my brain is just maxed out at this point.
Right.
And so, but yeah, when the death penalty was announced, felt like it was almost likeAndrew's energy was grieving through me, through my body.

(01:51:32):
So I have to allot time and space
energy for that.
I feel like I'm doing kind of a service for Andrew in that sense where it's like, okay, Iwill grieve for you, you know, and then yeah, with Avery too, she's grieving.
This is all bringing up something within her also.
And so I'm grieving with her also, but then at the same time, I'm trying to also shieldher from anything, you know, because I do feel like that's Andrew's energy also just

(01:52:01):
trying to protect her and shield her from any kind of misinformation or anything likethat.
And so, yeah.
Yeah, the past couple of months have just been exhausting in that sense because I feellike I'm doing a lot of different roles all at once in preparation for this.
And so, yeah, hopefully when this execution does happen, I will be clean slate.

(01:52:24):
You'll be able to breathe for a second.
This 20 year cycle will be over.
I will reclaim myself.
I will get to do more things that are for me and not for everyone else.
Right.
still be a responsible parent and all those things but I mean it's gonna be crazy to seewho I become right after this.

(01:52:46):
I'm excited.
You're already doing it girl.
It's crazy.
I'm trying and you know again like my mindset
I don't know what blessed me with this mindset.
don't know either, but like I leave me some because I only wish.
mean, it's those widows group.
see so many women in those widows groups just fall apart and they just they don't know.

(01:53:10):
It's like they can't get their footing right, you know, with it.
And I read their stories and there is a lot of anger and bitterness and not being able tomove on again.
And they're carrying all that right.
And for me, even
with Andrew's note, it's like, well, that's not my story.
I'm not doing that.
I'm going to have a beautiful life after this.

(01:53:31):
I'm young.
I need to be a good example.
I need to for my kids, for myself.
Do they know that that's how he died?
So yes.
So right after he died, we went through the whole process of the funeral and all that kindof stuff.

(01:53:52):
It was about a week or two later that my son
first was like how did he die and it was a pause I had to pause for a minute so was justlike wow he he waited that long to ask yeah because in and I even was like is he ready to
know mm-hmm you know and then I was like you know what he's ready I just felt like he wasready to know and I was like you know your dad committed suicide and he was just like let

(01:54:20):
out this big sigh
And I was like, are you OK?
And he's like, yeah.
didn't aid.
And it was just kind of he didn't say it out loud.
It was more so just like this energy.
Like I kind of figured, you know, it was just kind of kind of thought that when he saw thebehavior was different to right.
mean, yeah, he he was in the storm, too.
He saw the hurricane.

(01:54:40):
And so, you know, he wasn't exactly surprised.
Little one doesn't know yet.
She actually does know she does.
She she wanted to know, too.
And I was just I was had to be.
delicate with that.
I was like, I need like counselors, I need like people to navigate me.
Like, how do I do this?
And how I explained it to her and how a lot of other people also told me to explain it toher.

(01:55:06):
was that, you know, he was just having a hard time and he just he needed to leave.
He he was just having a hard time being a human.
Mm And and and so he wanted to go be with God.
So it made it to where it was like it was still his decision.
wasn't like outright saying, you know, he committed suicide.
It was like it was still like saying to her he made the decision to go be with God.

(01:55:29):
Mm hmm.
And she took that well.
She was just like, well, yeah, I get it.
It's hard being a human, you know.
And and I.
See, I wish I would have had guidance like that because with my youngest, my Kenna, she, Ididn't tell her for like the longest time.
It was always that it was an accident, just an accident, didn't say like exactly whathappened and she ended up finding out and she was like really, really mad at me.

(01:55:55):
She heard me talking to someone.
But I think she was like, actually I can just ask you, how old were you?
12.
She was 12.
Yeah.
But she was mad at me.
So it's like you don't know what to do.
You don't know, you know, then.
And it boils back to I just wanted to be transparent and honest.

(01:56:15):
Honest.
Yeah.
Even with how he died to the public, to the community, I just felt like honesty was thebest policy, you know, with this one.
And it was the same with the kids.
But I understand trying to protect them.
You you want to make sure they're ready.
Like if I didn't feel like she was ready to know that, I would have waited.
Right.
But it's like I could just see it in her face that she really needed to know.

(01:56:37):
Right.
in order for her to heal.
It's good that you did because like I said, with kind of, she was not happy.
Yeah.
So both of them know and you know, of course Avery, I told her immediately what happenedand she even was same sentiment as Aiden just like, well, that makes sense.
Yeah.
know, so.
I'm glad that they're not, you know, thinking, well, he left us.

(01:57:00):
You know, he didn't care or things like that.
You know, and I don't even feel like that either.
It's when people even ask me.
When people even ask me, like, are you mad at him?
I'm like, if you would have seen how much he was struggling, you would know not to be mad.
I mean, he was just suffering.
And there was just nothing you could do.

(01:57:23):
And so again, it goes back to I was praying for peace the whole time and I can't.
I can't debate with God how that happens.
That's how the prayer was answered.
And that sounds so strange and weird.
That goes against all the terms of prevent suicide and la la.

(01:57:43):
But when you have this gut feeling that this is just what happens.
You know, like there was nothing I could have done to prevent it.
It's again, it's just that honesty.
It's like, let's just get real about it.
Right.
You know, how are you supposed to prevent suicide when they really feel like that's whatthey should do.

(01:58:06):
Right.
And so, you know, it just.
It really makes it hard to be like, OK, what do we advocate for here?
Yeah.
And he obviously had it planned out.
It wasn't just an impulsive thing.
Like, you know, a lot of them are impulsive.
They're drinking drugs, something.
And then it's like that impulse or that moment that they think it's just over.

(01:58:29):
It needs to be over.
Yeah.
He wrote letters.
He took his time.
He took his time with it.
And so I think, you know,
Yeah, like how do you prevent suicide?
Well, it started way before the day it happened, you know, like it, it, it all boils downto a choice of getting help.

(01:58:52):
And, you know, I don't know why Andrew didn't seek help the way he, you know, may have mayhave needed.
still boils down to a choice now.
You know, I've talked to several men about maybe why men's mental health is so, you know,so much different than women.
know, women are a lot more likely to get therapy than men.

(01:59:13):
Right.
You know, with men, there's this stigma that you have to keep it together.
Right.
It's a weakness.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Being vulnerable and showing your emotions.
a weakness and you know that could have been something that maybe was a lot heavier forhim than I thought.
You know because in my eyes he was a very emotion person like you know he would talk abouthis feelings a lot and he would tell me things but maybe he got to a point where he felt

(01:59:45):
like he couldn't anymore maybe when he you know distanced himself and things like that andthat's you know
That's the thing he was doing so well for so long and then it all crept back up on him.
You know, who knows when that happens?
You can't time these things.
so suicide is just such a complex situation.

(02:00:06):
is.
And, you know, again, men are way more likely to commit suicide than women.
And so it's like, you know, how do we prevent suicide?
Well, maybe we just make it culturally accepted that men don't need
to feel weak or you know feel like that anything's gonna be taken away from them if theydecide to be vulnerable right what's going on in their life right and that's why I'm so

(02:00:32):
thankful on here like on the podcast to the amount of men we've had telling their storiesyeah because
people need to be able to relate and know that they're not just like this oddball out,know, thinking the way they think or feeling the way they feel and they can get help.
Yeah, yeah, and they absolutely, you know, I talked to a man about this, because, youknow, I wanted to get a man's perspective.

(02:00:56):
And he even said, he goes, you know, I had to go to other men to receive the help that Ineeded.
I couldn't exactly go to a woman because they they can't relate.
Right.
And so men need men.
in order to get through this.
you know, Andrew had isolated himself so much from everybody.
I even his workmates didn't know what was going on.

(02:01:18):
Really?
You know, that's the thing.
I mean, he really recluse back.
He pulled himself away from everyone, from me, from his workmates, you know, other men inhis life.
And, you know, but again, that was his choice.
And I think, you know, men, though, need to have groups of men that they can go to thatare open to discussing.

(02:01:40):
their emotions and their feelings because only another man's going to get what's going onwith them.
know, because they're they're their brains are wired different.
You know, they're going to view the world differently with their responsibilities andthings like that.
Right.
So, yeah, I just think how to maybe stop suicide in its tracks is just making it moreacceptable that men need men.

(02:02:00):
Right.
Right.
You know, because we're always, you know, we're always talking about how women need women.
Right.
You know, men need men need them.
You know, other men also.
And so women, think we will vent like to our girlfriends a lot easier and like if we'refeeling a certain way or what we think about something where men are just kind of like,

(02:02:21):
yeah, ever like, yeah, good.
Life's not so good.
Like they're not they don't go into detail.
They don't because, yeah, like there's this stigma that if anything is going wrong or off,then there's something wrong with them.
Right.
So but, know, that's going to just take years.
It's going to take years of cultural
retraining.
Yeah, I think it's gotten a little better, but we have a lot of work to do for that.

(02:02:45):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
So it's good that you're having more men on here.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, all we can really do is set the example of how we would like it to be.
Right.
But it's going to take a long time in order for us to see results.
But hopefully more and more men do feel like they can get help rather than just pushing itall down.

(02:03:07):
Right.
And, you know,
doing that.
But you know, Andrew, like again, it was such a complex situation.
mean, like who could have what 20 year old boy could have navigated what happened to himat that time in a healthy way.

(02:03:27):
I think he did everything he could to try to have a normal life, but it just all caughtback up to him.
Yeah.
He couldn't keep it down.
Yeah.
And even with someone like me being around him, you know, you know, being expressive andme seeing him for who he was, it still just wasn't enough.
Right.
He he just but again, it's a choice.

(02:03:50):
He decided to walk off and.
You know, I hope other men decide to get in their cars and go to a counseling center.
Right.
You know, go get some help.
Reach out.
Yeah.
And when I, know, even when I say go get some help like it like that, even saying thatsometimes has a negative connotation to it.

(02:04:10):
Like, well, you need to go get some help.
Right.
You know, even that kind of attitude needs to change where it's like, yeah, please go getsome help.
Right.
I you to stay alive.
Yes.
You know.
And so the sentiment even around everything just has to change.
Well, and I
think even with suicide though too, I think so many people are always just like, it's soselfish.
It's so this.
They didn't think about their kids.

(02:04:31):
They didn't think about their wife.
But when you're in that moment and you're in that head space, I don't think they reallythink about anything.
They don't.
They just don't want to be in pain any longer.
Yeah.
I remember when I announced it, I did get a comment, you know, like, that was selfish.
And I was just thinking, gosh.
You have idea.

(02:04:52):
Right.
No idea how actually selfless that was.
Right.
He actually thought about me and the kids.
Yeah.
He wrote us notes, even though they were kind of weird.
You know, he did think about us.
But that shows his headspace, too, at that point, if he was all erratic about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I really do think it was.

(02:05:13):
You know, I have to be so careful about what I say, but it's like, you know, kind of was aselfless act.
I mean, like in his mind, it was like, you know, I'm choosing not to get better.
I'm choosing that I don't want to go down the counseling route or that I don't want tofigure out these emotions.
And so, you know, maybe it's best that I do that.
That was his choice and it was his choice.

(02:05:34):
And it's like, OK, well, I have to respect that then.
Right.
And that's what I tell the kids to.
mean, you know, even though he is he is
my late husband, I still respect him.
I think that's another thing that maybe makes me a little bit different too in that sensebecause a lot of these wives in the widows groups, they're really angry.
They're like, how could he have done this to me?

(02:05:56):
I read that all the time.
He left me.
How could he have done this to me?
And I'm still in the mindset of, well, you know, he did what he did.
I respect his decision.
I have to keep pushing forward, you know, and I don't have any anger towards him.
I'm just kind of
like, well, that's the decision that he made and I'll just keep trucking forward.

(02:06:18):
Keep going.
Keep going.
You know.
But yeah, it's it's hard.
I see the women suffering in those groups and I wish I could just be like, you know, don'tthink that way.
But you can't tell someone to not write that way.
Right.
You know, they have to go through their own own journey.
Yeah, their own little thing.
Yeah.
But I just hope that someone hears this and is like, OK, I can get through this.

(02:06:42):
Like if she can get through it, I can get through it.
So in closing out, what would you tell what would you want to tell someone or tell themasses like when it comes to.
being a widow and facing, you know, your husband committing suicide.
Like there's so many widows out there.
Yeah, I would say to other widows, be easy on yourself.

(02:07:07):
Just be real gentle with yourself.
Like, you know, take the breaks, sleep, you know, eat, eat the foods.
Right.
You know, don't beat yourself up too much.
There really was nothing you could have done.
Right.
Try to figure out your new identity.
That's a big one.

(02:07:27):
Like right off the bat, try to figure out who you want to be.
View this as an opportunity to be just a brand new person.
Try to view it as a graduation.
Try to view it as an initiation into a new life.
And so if you need to change your hair color, do it.

(02:07:48):
If you need to buy a new wardrobe, do it.
But try to view it more so as an initiation into a whole new world and not as somethingthat happened to you.
I think that's what I would say.
No, I think that's awesome.
Because so many people, finding your new normal is really hard.
Yeah.
Really hard.

(02:08:08):
make it an adventure.
Make it an adventure.
Make it exciting.
Be like, oh, wow, I'm on a brand new journey.
do now?
And that's how I would try to express it to other widows and you know yes it's somethinghorrible that happened to you but it's also in the past.
Right.
You know it's funny I had a lady tell me years ago she goes you you can't drive if you'reconstantly looking in the rear-view mirror.

(02:08:40):
And so that's true.
And she said that to me a long time ago.
You know, I was like 19, 20 years old.
And that's always stuck with me in the sense of, know, she's right.
You can't drive forward if you're constantly looking in the rear of your mirror.
So, yeah, you have to keep your eyes on the road.
and not what's behind you.
Right.
So yeah, that's what I would tell.
That's what I would tell the widows out there.

(02:09:01):
That's awesome.
I'm sure it's going to touch a lot of people because, know, there's just there's so many.
Yeah.
So many out there.
I know.
Or even if men hear it and know, go get help.
Go at go talk to someone.
Yeah.
Like it's not a bad thing.
Right.
Like we want you to get help.
want you to figure out what's going on with you.
Get to the bottom of whatever's hurting that way.

(02:09:23):
You can live again.
Right.
You
Because like Andrew, he died that week that Rochelle died.
He never became alive again.
And I don't want men walking around like that.
I want them to figure out what hurts, resolve it, and live again.

(02:09:43):
Don't be a walking zombie.
Keep going, be alive while you keep going.
And that's a lot of work.
It's tough work.
I had to do that myself.
And if I can do it, you can do it.
possible and you can you know look really pretty while you're doing it.

(02:10:04):
I say that because after Andrew died I had some friends visit me some college friends andone of them she'll love that I'm saying this she goes Sarah you can be sad but you need to
be hot and I was like yes you're right okay whatever you say immediately yeah like go workout

(02:10:24):
Go get a spray tan.
Get your hair done.
You know, she's like.
Do all the things girl, because you can be sad, but you need to be hot.
And I've taken that so seriously this last year.
And it's true.
It's like, yeah, I can cry.
I can cry about this, but go lift some weights after.
Feel better.
Yeah, feel better.

(02:10:44):
And I really think what she told me is kind of like the contrasts you need to stay alive.
It's the contrast of like, it's OK to have these really deep,
dark emotions and the sadness, but at the same time having something to look forward to.
And I think what's hard for people too, even you want to do those things, you want to goout and get a spray tan, do your hair, look normal to yourself, but then I feel then you

(02:11:16):
have to worry about what all these other people are saying.
You're not grieving enough.
It's like you can't win.
She's not grieving.
She's not this.
Look how happy she is.
But that's not the reality of how the person actually
feels.
Right, you know, and that's something that I actually had to tune out.
so after Andrew died, I actually stopped watching TV.

(02:11:38):
mean, like it's been so strangely quiet in my home since he's died because I keep all theTVs off.
I don't, I don't really, yes, I'm on social media because you know, that's kind of, Ienjoy social media.
I love memes, you know, it makes me happy and all those kinds of things.
But I kind of just tuned all of that out.
I kind of tuned out any kind of opinions people were having.

(02:12:02):
Which is tough.
Yeah.
It's hard to do.
It was so necessary because I at the beginning I was like, yeah, I don't want to be thegirl who bounced back too quick.
Right.
But then I was like, well, you know what?
This didn't happen to them.
This happened to me.
Right.
Like if I want to smile and look cute and do something, then I should be able to do that.

(02:12:25):
And I think that's another thing that's kind of made me move along my healing journeyfaster is that I'm very unapologetic about who I am and what I
Right and even the people around me I'm like look if you can't accept me and my fullexpression you can kick rocks Like I'm not I'm not sticking around right like even know
what you think of me.

(02:12:46):
Yeah, like this is just who I am I'm a grieving widow that loves to share memes onInstagram and that you know is playful in person right and if that doesn't make sense to
you then it doesn't have to right keep going yeah, just keep going I want to be surroundedby people
who see me for who I am and accept me in my fullness.

(02:13:09):
And that's it.
That's all.
I it.
I think I think that's what makes me just move forward.
It's very unapologetic about my my grieving and my healing.
And you should be.
Yeah.
I mean, a lot of women have a hard time with that.
How is this going to look?
How what's my mom going to think?
know, exactly.
And everybody's got an opinion.

(02:13:29):
Yeah.
Whether you like it or not.
So you might as well do what's going make you happy.
Well, thank you.
for coming today sharing your story your family's story.
yeah and you know even the executions coming up and I really hope that brings so muchclosure to this situation so you know how we're all feeling so yeah I'm just ready you two

(02:13:51):
are going together yeah we're gonna go
Yeah, yeah, we're gonna go and you know, that's where I'm very grateful to have friendsall over the nation because we're gonna have some friends that we're gonna stay with that
are yeah, very high energy that are gonna, you know, make perfect.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's gonna be good.
well, you'll have to let me know how it goes.

(02:14:14):
I know.
Yeah.
And how she does.
Yes, for sure.
For sure.
Reconnect.
And yeah, let's you know all about it.
I mean, like that is the thing.
Like,
What is this?
Like, what am I about to experience?
Yeah, like who even knows?
Who do you ask?
Right.
Yeah.
Like, you know, this is something that not a lot of people experience in their lifetime.

(02:14:36):
Right.
Very surreal.
I have no idea what to expect.
Well, I'm glad you're going to be there for her.
yeah.
Because I think that's so important.
Yeah.
And she got lucky.
You know, she does have you.
Yeah.
you guys are so close.
You know, and that's the thing.
A lot of people, I think, expected Avery to kind of end up
you know, a certain way because of what happened to her.

(02:14:57):
Right.
And man, if you were to meet her, you would be like, she is one of the strongest women Iknow.
I mean, she inspires me daily just with who she is and how she's handling the situationand how she even handled her dad.
And, know, you know, she was the one who even said when you do this podcast, make sure toadvocate for men's mental health.

(02:15:20):
I mean, that's her focus.
She wants to make this into something bigger than what it is.
Right.
And so, I mean, she's just such a well put together person considering all the tragedythat's happened to her.
She's been through a lot.
Yeah.
And so I just like, she's an inspiration.
Oh, I just love it.
One day she'll tell her story and just blow everyone out of the water.

(02:15:41):
Yes.
That'll be great.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
And so I'm so lucky to have her.
Yes.
I'm like the luckiest step mom ever.
Yes.
Yes.
all right.
Well, I guess we will end this here.
Yeah.
And I don't know who knows.
Maybe we'll have both of you on later down the road.
Yes.
And she can tell her story.

(02:16:02):
Yeah.
And what she's been through as you know, she was so young.
I know her whole life.
She through all this stuff.
I think she would be great.
She yeah, she has a story to tell.
OK, everybody stay tuned for number two down the road.
right?
All right, thank you.

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