Police Officer Marries a Man With Secrets He Couldn’t Hide

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi and welcome back to Beyond the Monsters.
Today I have Savannah here with us and she just flew in from Washington State, right?
Yes.
Okay.

(00:22):
Hi Savannah.
Thanks for coming.
Thanks for having me and you guys choosing my story.
First time.
Okay.
Well, let's dive in wherever you want to start.
It's good.
Some people start from childhood.
Some people start, you know, in adulthood when things started happening in their life.

(00:44):
It's totally up to you wherever you're comfortable.
Okay.
um So for me, I grew up in a house with domestic violence.
Okay.
Just kind of seeing my mom navigate her relationships and marriages.
um I really didn't understand how that would manifest into my life later on when it cameto my dating choices or the people, I guess, that encountered me.

(01:11):
And so it really made me...
have to re-examine my standards, boundaries, and expectations, not only for myself, butfor the people that I allow in my circle.
And my story's a little interesting because my family played a part in my betrayal.
um So that's one of the parts of, guess, when we talk about grief and processing grief,how that works.

(01:39):
It's just been an interesting journey for me in that way.
ah
And so because I had grown up in that kind of house, it kind of set the trajectory of likemy job choices.
So I joined the army around 21 and I joined as an MP.
I was in for five years, got out of the service and then transitioned straight intocivilian law enforcement.

(02:00):
um And so I met my now ex-husband back in 2017.
And um this was around kind of around the time when I was getting ready to transition outof the service.
And when we started dating, you hit things off and you have all the great conversationsand the honeymoon phase.

(02:22):
uh then you start to notice that there are some issues that arise in your communicationstyles.
oh And so he had been in lot longer than I, there's an age gap.
And so he had been in a lot longer than I
And so uh he was getting ready to, I think he had probably about like five more years leftbefore he was set to retire when we had first started dating.

(02:48):
And so I remember him telling me about his previous marriages, um which, know, lawenforcement, military is, it kind of just comes with a lifestyle of stress and, everything
else added into the equation, how we both grew up individually.
um So we ended up.

(03:10):
kind of being off and on for a little while, which was interesting.
And then it got to the point where I said, okay, you know, I'm getting ready to go intocivilian law enforcement and I really want something stable and I want to start my family
and I want to, you like I'm just at a certain point that I feel like my life should beprogressing in this way.

(03:30):
And he was very adamant on not starting a family in the service and not doing it that way.
And so I said, okay, well, I think we're just,
we want separate things and that's okay.
So I'm going to, we're just going to separate.
And so I separated and I was about probably two years into civilian law enforcement whereI met my son's dad.

(03:53):
eh And that was a very interesting thing within its own because at this point I'm tellingmyself, hey, excuse me, I'm 31.
I'm set in my career.
I'm financially comfortable.
emotionally stable, like physically, spiritually, like we're in a great spot.

(04:14):
But I didn't know that my family in the background was doing certain things to kind ofsabotage our relationship.
And so we ended up separating because at the time I didn't know.
And it was just.
family, they weren't normally toxic like that, that you knew of?

(04:35):
I knew of.
That I knew of.
It wasn't as blatant to me.
And then of course with family and titles, you tend to give them a little bit more gracethan you would a stranger, right?
Because you have this expectation of, we are my family, so I expect you to act this waywith me.
I expect you to be as genuine and kind and empathetic and as loyal as I am because thethings that have been done to me, I would never conceive to do that to you.

(05:04):
Right?
And so, ah so my son's dad and I ended up splitting up because our relationship at thatpoint had been tumultuous based off of things that weren't necessarily true, which I
didn't know at the time.
ah And this was right before I had my son.
So I left my son's dad when my son was a newborn, like he wasn't even here yet.

(05:26):
And that was an interesting journey of...
entering back into single like parenthood having to grieve the process that I thought Iwas going to enter motherhood in.
And I'm like, man, I really wanted to break this generational cycle, this generationaltrauma of single parenthood, of unhealthy relationships.
And I thought I was doing everything right, you know, and to get to that point where I'mlike, I still got it wrong.

(05:52):
And I was like, OK, well, he's here now.
I have to do what I have to do.
So my schedule was very interesting at that point.
ah I would literally wake up at 4 a.m., get myself ready, get my now baby ready, um straphim in passenger seat in my patrol vehicle.

(06:13):
So you're a police officer now, okay?
dropped him off at my mom's place because she was still working from home because COVID.
Go on patrol for the day, get off at 1630, so 430, um rush back home, drop my uniform inthe garage, change into civilian clothes, and then drive to campus to do class at UW.

(06:41):
My schedule for my son's three now.
the newborn.
And I still ended up having to take breaks in between work because of my son's, um, hejust has needs and being a single parent, was like, kept getting to the point where the

(07:02):
city, they were great, but it was like, Hey, you know, we understand that these are yourcircumstances at home, but that can't take away necessarily from what we have to do here.
And so not having the support that I needed, it's just very hard to continue.
to be consistent at that job when you don't have the
totally out of the picture at this point.

(07:24):
No, so dad's back into the picture.
Okay.
And then we're gonna put a pin on that because the ending of my marriage with my nowex-husband was the reason that my son's dad came back into the picture and we had to have
a very honest conversation with each other that we weren't able to have because my familywas still in the picture in the background.

(07:46):
the plot they can.
So when I met, so I reunite with my son's dad.
And excuse me, I'll take that back.
I meet my now ex-husband again in 2023 at the end of 2023, beginning of 2024.
So the whole time that my son is now, I don't know, almost two and a half.

(08:11):
And so I hadn't been involved with my son's dad.
We weren't talking.
You know, he had him for visitation every now and then.
And that was that.
Okay.
My now ex-husband comes back into the picture and he knows everything because we had, wenow have about nine and a half years of knowing each other.
And so he's met my family.
He knows my mom.

(08:32):
He knows my sister.
He knew, he knew what happened in previous relationships, like the works.
And so.
He's like, hey, you're still this strong, ambitious girl that I met and I would reallylove to come back into your life and be the guy that I couldn't be the first time that we

(08:52):
dated because I wasn't ready.
And I said, okay, well, that's great that you're telling me that, but I need consistencyand behavior changes in the works.
And so he's coming in, he's flying in from Chicago every month.
Every month he was flying in for about a year and it got towards the end of 2024, November2024, and he said, okay, like I think it's time that you guys move from Washington to

(09:21):
Chicago.
And we had gotten married a few months prior to that.
And so I said, okay, like this just makes sense.
You we're not gonna do a long distance marriage.
You've already come to Washington so many times.
Like he's going through the works.
We met with my...
legal team to change my parenting plan.
He's coming to all of my son's doctor's appointments, meeting with their doctors, askingwhat their needs are.

(09:44):
He's the one that's behind the scenes calling the hospitals in Chicago to make sure thatmy son has adequate care when we show up to Chicago.
mean, I literally, 1,000 % asked for my hand in marriage in front of my mom, my wholefamily, like the works, right?
And so in my mind, I'm like, okay, like he's serious this time.

(10:05):
You know, like we're not playing the games of me being in my early 20s at this point andyou being in your mid 30s.
Like we're serious this time, so okay.
And we're having all of the hard conversations.
What are your expectations as far as sex is concerned in our relationship?
What are your expectations as far as finances?
How is this gonna be split in the household?
What do you expect me to contribute?

(10:27):
How do you feel about setting boundaries with family?
What does that look like?
ah
I mean, I'm pulling out all the hard questions and he's answering them in a way that I'mlike, okay, this can work.
Yeah.
The minute we get to Chicago, within the first few weeks, the masks start slipping.

(10:50):
And it starts slipping very quickly.
He was only doing it once a month for so long and now it's real.
ah
a lot easier to hide your habits when you're not living in the same household as someoneversus when you are because the one thing that you can't hide are habits.

(11:13):
That's the one thing you can't.
So I'm gonna see your morning routine.
I'm gonna see how you talk to yourself throughout the day, what you're living like, theworks.
And it's a lot easier to show up in these different spaces with those different masks.
when there's nobody that's consistently able to watch you.
And I had met his friend group and of course I had already met his family from when we'vedated back when I was in my 20s and he was in his mid 30s.

(11:41):
And so we get to Chicago and I'm realizing that he is not anywhere near where he said hewas emotionally, financially, spiritually, not even physically.
uh
What kind of things were you noticing?
Like what was different?
So he has an office, a work office in his apartment.

(12:04):
And for me, this was like a huge adjustment because I left my career.
And when you leave law enforcement, a lot of people don't realize that once you leave thatdepartment, you lose all of seniority.
You
lose, you know, there's nothing else going into that 401k, that 457, all of those LEbenefits that you were getting, you're not getting anymore.

(12:24):
When you step away, you step away completely.
Even if I went to, even if I got rehired from the same department, I still lose allseniority.
So I don't get first pick on shit.
You over, you start over.
And so I said, hey, I just wanted to make sure before we even got there, are you sureyou're comfortable with me leaving my career right now?

(12:45):
Because I got to a place where
The schedule was hectic, but I was content.
And I said, hey, I'm leaving my home.
And he said, no, that's fine.
You can keep it if you want.
Just rent it out.
And I was going to do that anyway.
If I was going to leave, I wasn't going to sell it because I had bought the house.
And so um we get to Chicago and again, I'm noticing the habits are not what he said itwas.

(13:08):
So he has this office.
And in his office, because he was working from home,
He would go into his office and he would be in there, you know, five, six hours and I getit, you're doing work.
But I also noticed that he transitioned from working from home and being in his office tonow going into the office more frequently and complaining and saying, well, we have a new

(13:33):
boss and you know, she requires this of me.
And so I'm going to be out for a while and you know, I'm just going to start going to theoffice more frequently.
And I said, okay.
And I don't know why that little grumble in my stomach was like, okay, something's off.
So I go in the office and the VA of course gives you medications for whatever you needwhen you're a veteran.

(13:54):
He's a retiree.
And I'm noticing that there are pill bottles that have different prescriptions withdifferent providers information on it.
And we're talking about the heavy stuff, right?
So we're talking about amphetamine, we're talking about muscle relaxers.
we're talking about sleeping aids, we're talking about uh SSRI medication.

(14:18):
And I'm like, you're not taking any of this how it's prescribed because I see that youdrink and I see that you have your little marijuana pen because in Chicago statewide, it's
legal, not legal federally, but it's legal state.
And I'm like, you can't take these medications and drink the way that you do and utilizemarijuana.

(14:39):
That's not how this works.
And I said, no, I want to have a conversation about what's going on.
And he's like, no, you know, I just, take them when I need to and it's not like that.
And there's nothing to be concerned about.
And I said, okay, well, you're not taking your PTSD medication.
You're not taking your SRSRIs.
You're not taking anything that you're

(15:01):
You don't just randomly take those when you feel like it.
like it needs six to eight weeks to get into your system and regulate and you taking itinconsistently or not as prescribed.
That's misuse of your medication.
yeah.
And he because I had left my career, he said, you know, before we left, he said, you know,I don't expect you to contribute anything.

(15:21):
Just be a stay at home mom.
Focus on June, my son and.
uh Go to school because at this time I was getting ready to finish up school and he so weget there and.
Now he's complaining about being able to provide financially.
Mm.
And I said, okay, now I'm starting to get worried because everything that you're tellingme that made me leave Washington where I was content, now I'm here under your care.

(15:54):
I don't have any family here.
I don't have any friends here.
I've left my career.
I'm financially dependent on you at this point now.
And my child is here with me.
Okay.
He didn't know it.
But when we had that conversation, I'm going down the checklist, the drug use, the alcoholuse, financially not being where he said he was.

(16:23):
And then I said, even emotionally, it's like, now you're starting to check out.
You went from working from home and now you're going into the office more.
And now you're going to the gym more and...
Now I'm just not seeing you.
So I'm in a city where I'm in this tiny apartment, right?

(16:43):
I went from my nice brand new four bedroom, three bath house with my backyard for my kiddoto like, I left everything here for you.
I gave you that power.
I gave you that position with the understanding of trust of like, I'm your wife.
You're going to take care of me.
And now that I'm here and you have me in this position, I'm realizing that.

(17:07):
nothing that you said to me was true.
And he lost it.
He lost it.
And he went to work the next day.
He was actually working?
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
He went to work the next day and that's, we'll put a pin in that too, cause wait till youfind out what his job is.

(17:30):
So I get a call from Jesse Brown VA and the psych ward calls me and says, Hey, I justwanted to let you know that you're listed as the emergency contact for my husband.
And um I just wanted to let you know that he's
here with us.
And so I turned on my work brain and I said, okay, is he there voluntary or involuntary?

(17:52):
Like, did he get picked up from law enforcement or did he walk himself in?
What's the mandatory, is it a mandatory hold?
What's going on?
And so she's running down the checklist and she's letting me know, no, he just showed upfor suicidal ideations.
And I'm like, okay, it's very interesting that he had suicidal ideations after Iconfronted him about not being anywhere.

(18:14):
where he said he was before I left my career to come here.
Mm-hmm.
After I get that call, his friends start calling me, texting me, his sisters calling me,texting me, hey, we just got a call from the hospital, we just want to know what's going
on, is he okay, did you anticipate this happening, what's the issue?

(18:39):
And I didn't want to go further into detail, but I'm like, he's no victim.
He's no victim.
And I've dealt with suicidal people, and this is not something to joke about.
eh
especially when you're doing it conveniently, when you get called out for not being whoyou said you were.

(18:59):
So he comes back from the hospital and...
How long do they hold them?
Like a 72 or?
Okay.
He was there for a week.
So at this point, it's around Christmas time.
I got there November 11th, 2024.
Now it's around Christmas time after his, when this conversation and the visitation to thehospital happens.

(19:23):
And he gets out of the hospital and I'm trying to have a follow-up conversation with him.
And I'm being met with the same thing of just now he's being dismissive.
Now it's deflection.
Now it's, well, you're asking for too much and it's an issue.
I don't want to talk about this.
It's shutting down.
It's the stonewalling.
It's, okay, well, well, what else do you need?

(19:45):
You're asking for too much.
You're being too sensitive.
Of course, yes.
And now it's from this, what started out as this essential, marital bliss.
When we first get there, it was literally like this is happening and I'm trying to processhow quickly it is happening as it is happening.

(20:08):
And
when I was having this follow-up conversation, it's like, maybe there's a little bit ofhope.
Maybe it's not what I think is happening is happening.
And I'm starting to second guess myself of like, maybe I'm just not giving him enoughgrace.

(20:29):
Maybe I'm overthinking it.
And I'm not trying to put on my work brain, right?
Because I don't, in my mind, it's like, well, you're family.
don't need to be able to put on my work brain in order to deal with you.
I'm expecting you to be honest and genuine and upfront.
Exactly.
Because you're my husband, right?
So that's where the now I'm starting to doubt myself.

(20:52):
And we're getting invites from friends and family to go out and I'm realizing there's amiscommunication there.
So we stopped getting invited places.
Excuse me, like he's trying to hide us.
I think we were going to church and familiar with his church group.
And it's like we would show up on Sundays and he was this great church guy and he'sholding my son and we're sitting there in service and we're getting through service and.

(21:22):
In my mind, it's like...
He's putting on this great facade with churchgoers.
He's putting on this great facade with friends and family of like, no, we're just, youwe're getting reacquainted with each other and we don't really have any issues, but little
do they know like what's really going on.
And so at this point I'm reaching out to his friends and family and I'm like, hey, I don'tknow if he told you what is actually going on behind closed doors.

(21:53):
But I think I've worked the street long enough to know when somebody is using uppers anddowners together.
And he's not going to therapy like he's supposed to be going.
He doesn't want to deal with it.
And it's like he's picking and choosing what's convenient for him.
And you guys in some way, shape and form have been enabling him because when you guys gettogether, you guys go out to the bar, you guys go out to smoke.

(22:22):
You're not knowing necessarily what his issues are or how severe it is.
And this is the reminder of how abusers get community.
Because when I spoke to family, when I spoke to friends, I was being met with the sameminimizing attitude of, that's just how he is.

(22:44):
Or, well, you know, I'll pray for you guys.
Mm-hmm.
Or it was even with his best friend, it's like, well, I don't think he did anything thathe did thus far maliciously.
I don't think that was his intent.
And it's like, okay.
So no one was really listening to you.
Yeah.
But here's the kicker.

(23:06):
Nobody was listening to me because he had already established a smear campaign the firstnight that we had that conversation before he checked into the hospital.
And I went through his phone and I saw all of the text messages that he sent his friendsand his family in a group chat to make it seem like I was just this crazy, jealous,

(23:26):
insecure wife.
that's trying to separate him from his friends and family and trying to isolate him.
And this is what I mean when it's like, you're the one that's, you did that.
You've done that to me.
And when have I ever been crazy jealous or insecure?
Am I insecure or am I noticing that you're going to work more often?
You're going to the gym.

(23:47):
We're staying here in this, exactly.
We're staying here in this tiny apartment.
I've explored more of Chicago by myself with my baby in tow.
than you have shown us.
You've intentionally made sure that I'm not hanging out with your friends because you'reexcluding us from the invites even if you guys are going out.

(24:10):
And then I-
shit talk to you and just, he's good.
and they all do the same things.
That's why.
And he had these very nice house plants that every morning the humidifiers going he spraysthese plants down He's playing music for him.
He's sweet-talking him.
I destroyed those houseplants And when he comes back into the house, he's like well what'swrong now he's being my savior at this point Like let's sit down.

(24:41):
Let's talk about it because you're super angry and I want to know what's going on and Isaid you're upset
about the houseplants and the same way that you have shown care and attention and love andempathy and kindness to these houseplants is the very same things that I have done to
invest in myself and get to a certain point where I was comfortable in motherhood raisingmy son in Washington.

(25:03):
And now I'm here and you've invited me into a world of chaos.
And you know what your friends and family don't see?
They don't see when you're crying at night.
They don't see when you're being insecure about the things that have happened to youwithin your family dynamics.
They're not pouring into you.
And here I am with this full, beautiful cup of love that's running over.
And you're giving me a cup of love that was rusted over and filled with piss.

(25:26):
You know?
That's good one.
And I'm like, this can't be real.
And then I'm like, when I'm trying to sit here and have an honest conversation with youand tell you, hey, my needs are not being met.
I didn't know that all of this was going on, but if this is the case, that's fine.
I'm giving you the opportunity to be honest with me and all you've done is double down andcontinue to lie and continue to paint this picture to your friends and family of like,

(25:53):
nope, she's just coming in.
She's trying to change everything.
She's asking for too much.
She wants, you know, she's financially draining me and this, that and the fourth.
And it's like, dude, if we're being honest, I made more money than you.
Mm-hmm.
They gather their people and that's just what...
And I, once I had realized that I was just gonna be met with the same attitude fromeverybody of, oh, and this was one friend in particular said, well, you need to take some

(26:24):
accountability for how you got here too.
And I said, well, imagine someone is flying into your state every month for a full year,sits down and has an honest conversation, what I thought was honest with your own family,
meets with your son's dad.
meets with your legal team to change your co-parenting plan, marries you, says, I didn'tdo right by you the first time that you gave me an opportunity in our 20s.

(26:52):
I want to do it.
um I'm ready.
I'm a man.
And then you give them an opportunity and they crap all over it.
And it's like, well, you're to blame.
You're to blame because you believed him.
You're to blame because you trusted him.
it's your fault now.

(27:13):
Did anybody give you the benefit of doubt though?
To where they wanted to hear your side?
Or was it basically just he already had them all brainwashed?
He already had his team because they all benefited.
And then I had to look at it from a higher perspective.
If it's family, and family has access to you in this way, or form, meaning you've signedfor their houses, you've signed for their cars when you were still active duty, you've

(27:38):
helped them with bills, you've shown up in all these ways because you didn't have a wifeand you didn't have kids that you had to focus on.
So they don't want to lose access to you that way, right?
Family, of course, is going to say, no, we want to keep him single.
We want to keep him in this.
We want to keep him this way because if anything goes wrong in our lives with our partnersWe know at a minimum we'll still be able to fall back on him and he has always painted

(28:00):
himself out to be the root of his family in that way and As far as friends his guyfriends, it's like well, he's a chaotic friend You know He's the one that we go out and we
have a good time and he's too single and we watch him pick up all the ladies and we livekind of vicariously through him and that's just what it is So, of course if he's a good
fun chaotic friend, well, we don't want to see what you're like as a dad

(28:21):
We don't wanna see what you're like when you have responsibilities and you're not comingout and entertaining us anymore.
And then, it got even better.
So, that same phone conversation where I'm seeing what he's saying with his friends andfamilies and he sent them the screenshots of the plants, the house plants, I see

(28:43):
conversations between him and his ex.
Oh.
And that young lady, I had a phone conversation with her through his sister.
So I called his sister over.
His sister came over and I said, hey, I just want you to know that I know that yourbrother is still trying to talk to his most recent ex because I saw a few text messages in

(29:11):
English and in Vietnamese.
Obviously he was using like a partial translator and
She said, no, don't, don't, like his ex girlfriend is, she's in like a happy relationshipand she's like, I, you know, like we're friends, we've gone out a couple of times and
she's happily in a relationship.
Like, no, I don't think they're talking to each other at all.
And I said, okay, call her.

(29:33):
So we get on the phone together and she's like, no, the last time him and I were togetherwas in October.
I flew out in November.
Wow.
huh.
What's his sister's reaction?
She, it's almost like she wasn't surprised.
She wasn't surprised.
It was just like, well, you know, another one bites the dust.

(29:56):
Here we go again.
So she didn't have compassion like for you or anything like that.
I maybe she did as someone who else was a single mom ah because she's had her ownstruggles in relationships.
And so I think from that perspective, it was just like, yes, that's my brother.
But at the same time, I want this girl to know what's going on because I don't thinkanybody else is going to tell her.

(30:20):
So at a minimum, I'm going to show her this kind of respect just because I can understandfrom this perspective.
But her loyalty was still not to me at the end of the day, right?
And so he comes back to the apartment and I say, hey, I just got off the phone with yourex-girlfriend, Christy.
And she says that the last time that you and her were together was in October.

(30:42):
I said, I flew out here in November.
You and I were already married back in August.
Hmm.
Now imagine me exchanging vows with you and before God, the same God that you're prayingto every Sunday in church that you want to act like with your church friends that you're
so in touch with, right?
That same, the person that I exchanged vows with, you mean to tell me that it wasn't evenhonest from the beginning because you're impulsive, because you have substance use issues,

(31:11):
because you have insecurity issues, and the very same thing that you have tried toweaponize against me.
of well you're strong.
You've always been strong.
What was his response?
mean, could you just see it on his face or did he just flat out laugh?
no, no.
He leaned forward on the kitchen counter and that's when I saw the face change and hesaid, now you know, now what?

(31:35):
Now that you know, now what?
And I was like, oh, okay.
I was ready to give Lorraine Bobbitt a run for it.
Eileen Warnow, she would have been erased from the history books.
And so I was like, all right, ah this is, this is, you're never going to hear from meagain.

(32:00):
Never.
And so what he didn't know was after we had had the first, the first conversation that wehad before he went into the psychiatric hospital for suicidal ideations, I called my
retirement.
And I said, Hey, I need to pull out this amount.
When can I have it by?
And she said, well, we, you know, got to give us a couple of days to clear the checkbefore we can give it to you.

(32:23):
And, know, there's different ways that you can check it out or whatever.
And I was like, no, I just need this amount.
I don't want to touch the rest.
Please just give me this.
I'm kind of in an emergency.
um, she was super nice.
She said, yep, I'll give you a confirmation email when it comes out.
He didn't know that though.
So you're.
Yeah.
but I still had to wait.

(32:45):
So I'm trying to play nice while still trying to get the full information because I knewthat wasn't the full picture.
And he didn't know at the time that I had pulled that money out.
So at that end point where I'm like, okay, we're done.
This is it.

(33:05):
Especially after finding out about the ex still being in the picture.
I packed my stuff up.
while I was playing Fleetwood Mac in the background.
Dreams, yeah.
And he's like, what's going on?
And I'm like, I'm not with you because, ooh.
And I said, you need to stay at a friend's house for however long it takes for my familyto get here to help us move because I absolutely refuse to, like, I don't want to see you.

(33:34):
I don't want to see you.
I don't want to put myself in a situation where you're no longer here and I'm no longerhere.
So I call my mom, say, I need you to come pick me up.
And she said, okay, well, I'm flying out towards that way anyway, because my niece was atschool.
And so she said, yeah, I'm flying out that way anyway, that's fine.

(33:54):
So everything's packed up, put everything in the van.
I say, you need to buy our airplane tickets to at least get us back.
And I need at least something because I've already left my career.
Like I'm leaving now with nothing.
And so he sent $10,000 and was like, here.
um that should at least cover you for enough time.

(34:17):
And I'm like, sure, sure bud.
That's...
uh
Where'd he come up with 10 grand though?
He couldn't even pay the bills.
He either came, it either came from his family or the ex.
It's the only two things that I can think of.
And so we get back to Washington and of course when you're separated and you have like themental clarity now that your guys are not together anymore, you're like, how did I just

(34:47):
experience this level of emotional whiplash?
I was just lied to.
manipulated.
My reality was questioned.
I'm dealing with the grief again of someone who knew all of the struggles that I wentthrough in previous relationships and put me through it worse.

(35:10):
I was isolated, left my stability and just went into chaos.
And then you're probably sitting there thinking like, how did I ever get myself in thatsituation?
Like, why didn't I see it?
Why didn't I, yeah, I can imagine.
And it wasn't until I had, it was funny because once I got back to Washington, I had aconversation with one of my professors and he's like, you're great at your job, but you

(35:38):
didn't use that same brain, those same skills that you have when it came to your intimatelife partners.
You gave them more grace because you're expecting, you're not expecting, right, from thisperson who knows your family or has sat down at your dinner table.
You're not expecting those same things from this person.

(35:59):
I don't think we ever do when we're in it.
You know, when you're in it, you don't see things like that.
uh
And when we talk about domestic violence and emotional abuse and financial abuse andreproductive abuse, because he definitely wanted to make sure that I was on birth control,
even though he was pollinating everybody else's gardens for being quite frank.

(36:26):
that wasn't even it.
He was sleeping with multiple people.
Like there were apps in this phone.
Gals, guys.
uh
the works, like a sex addiction.
was literally like drug addict, sex addict.
But I mean, the trifecta all kind of comes together.
And of course, when I had the inkling that he was potentially cheating, before I found outabout his ex still being in the picture, all sexual activity between us stopped.

(36:54):
And I immediately went and got checked and thanked the Lord that I came back clean.
And even once I got back, I still went to do a follow up to make sure that I was.
But I don't think that's talked about enough in relationships, especially in terms ofinfidelity when that occurs.
It's like you're not even just emotionally and psychologically cutting this person downthat entrusted you.

(37:16):
You're physically putting this person's health at risk because who you lay with ishygiene.
It's no different than the soaps that you put on your body, the shampoo that you use, andyou have no idea who else this person is sleeping with.
And if your ex-girlfriend is comfortable,
sharing you with everyone because that was the agreement that you guys had.

(37:37):
And she obviously knew you guys were married, right?
She knew about me.
She knew about me.
Everybody knew about me.
Everybody.
And then I had to look at it like this.
If he already has access to people that are comfortable having him in the way that theydo, meaning the ex-girlfriend doesn't mind sharing him physically, financially, as long as

(38:01):
he comes home, right?
She doesn't mind that he has a boy toy somewhere that he can get his fix from, howeverthat works, because...
Well, this is our agreement.
His family's not gonna care because, okay, well, he still provides for us this way.
His friends are not gonna care because they're just gonna say.
It was the whole, it's like literally like a whole community.

(38:21):
It's one little person up against a whole community and then everyone's gonna say, well,you're crazy.
You're asking for too much.
You should have known better.
You should take some accountability.
So now we're back in Washington and more stuff is coming out because at this point, Ireally had to do a self-examination of the three tumultuous relationships that I've had in

(38:44):
my life in different ways and how I grew up, played a part in that.
And so I had a conversation, quite a few honest conversations with my mother, which hasnever happened.
My mother was the kind of person that what happens in this house stays in this house.
You know, you don't ask questions, you stay in a child's place.
And so we never had that kind of dialogue, which meant that I never had the vettingprocess.

(39:08):
We never had those conversations.
Right.
And so how the generational trauma gets passed down is, well, I grew up watching you getphysically hit.
I grew up in a household where he could control the finances.
He was a breadwinner and you stayed.
and even though I tried so hard not to repeat these cycles, I'm still noticing that itshowed up.

(39:29):
in these relationships, these three relationships in my life.
And this was the final straw for me because I told my mom, said, look, as a woman, Iunderstand, but as a mother.
It's a whole different story.
every single relationship that I have had to leave, well, the first one I was super young,was a kid, 22, but after my son's dad and my most recent ex-husband, I could never.

(39:58):
I didn't even want to stay with my son's dad because of infidelity.
Mm-hmm.
He never yelled at me, he never hit me, he never said anything demeaning to me.
But his mentality was, well, my dad has a separate mistress and my mom's cool with it, sowhy wouldn't you be?
And that's what I mean by mindsets, right?

(40:18):
And we talk about individual, micro, macro, how that all plays a part into likeself-identity.
I had to realize that, well, that's how he grew up.
So of course that's gonna be normalized in his family structure.
And as far as my ex-husband,
it was the same kind of mindset, but it was more so of like, well, he pays, he's willingto pay all of the bills.

(40:40):
He's willing to be the breadwinner for your family.
So if he goes out and cheats every now and then it's like, ah, there are men that areworse.
And so I had to look at it from the understanding of like standards and expectations foreveryone is not gonna be the same based off of what is normalized within their family
dynamics growing up.
So I was able to look at it from that higher perspective, but as a person who was dealingwith the grief of everything that has just happened to me, the level of anger and just

(41:10):
trying to come to peace with it was the hardest.
Did you start to get depressed at all or like think of your self worth like it was justlow?
Like they're not seeing you?
It's amazing.
wild part though, because this is what happened.

(41:31):
Because of the situation that happened and the that it unfolded with my son's dad.
I didn't have time to really sit back and think what's wrong with me, if that makes sense.
No, does.
Because I said to myself, listen, you've shown up honest, you've shown up authentic,you've effectively communicated and tried to provide a safe space for the people around

(41:59):
you.
I don't think you're the issue.
And it makes it even better because I did have a therapist that I had been working withjust for work-related stuff.
Okay.
For, I don't know.
six years at this point.
And so when I'm telling her all the things that transpired in Chicago, she's like, no,you're not crazy.

(42:20):
No, it's you're right.
And it's, I guess we can debate between objective and subjective if we've already builtthat relationship, but beat the fact that this is her career.
She's like, no, I can sit back here and tell you like family dysfunction.
This is how it's played out in multiple ways.
you were kind of thrown into it, but it's different because you are focusing onpsychology.

(42:46):
You're going to school for this, right?
So take yourself out of the situation and I want you to think about it.
What do you already know?
And then I was like, okay, that's right.
I'm not crazy.
I'm not the problem.
I've been honest.
I've been authentic.
And the same guy.

(43:06):
were already in that headspace though because there's so many people that just aren't,they're not that strong.
But that's the very same thing that everyone has weaponized against me.
You're so strong.
You're so strong.
You can handle anything.
eh And everyone has repeated that to me on multiple occasions in my life to include my ownfamily members and so I'm having the conversation with my mom and

(43:32):
She's doing the same thing.
Dismissive, deflective.
Well, you know, it wasn't as bad as I had it growing up.
So it's, you know, it's not that bad.
And I'm like, no, I'm trying to connect the dots for you in a way that makes youunderstand how we all turned out the way that we did.
And she's slowly becoming more open to it.

(43:57):
And I think she's only more open to it because my brother committed suicide.
in 2022.
And that's why when my ex-husband had said that he was suicidal, he knew about mybrother's suicide.
So to use that was like an extra, you know, that's an extra combo.

(44:17):
Absolutely.
He knew exactly what he was doing.
And he knew that during that time, I had postpartum depression, because it was just me andsingle motherhood now.
My brother committed suicide three days before my son's first birthday.
So I not only had to show up for my son's first birthday, but I had to plan my brother'sfuneral because my sister can't do it.

(44:41):
My mom can't do it.
They're already both emotionally checked out because they're the ones that found him.
Right.
And that's how I understood my role within my own family.
So I brought that up to my mom in our conversation as well.
I said, listen, I've always been the family therapist, which is why I've had to be the onethat's emotionally regulated, which is why I've had to be the one that's showing up and

(45:04):
being the mediator in the family.
I'm the one that's calling everybody together.
We're dealing with my brother's issues.
We're dealing with my sister's issues.
And to be quite frank, I'm the one kid that growing up, you're like, well, I don't have toworry about her.
No, she's fine.
She's gonna be successful.
I don't have to worry about her.
I said, yeah, and I was so independent because I was the one kid that you didn't have toworry about.

(45:29):
I didn't have a choice.
I always had to figure it out.
Whereas my elder brother and sister, they always lived with my mom.
Even into adulthood.
My sister is in her 40s and she still lives with my mom.
My mom's been giving her free childcare her whole life.
So it's like, mom.
Look at this is a generational cycle that's getting repeated.

(45:52):
But if they don't wanna see it, they won't.
That's the problem.
Even you being the strong one, you still wanna be seen.
You become hyper independent, hyper vigilant, all the things, hyper, hyper extreme,everything.
And look at me, I did this now, I'm over here.
they just assume that you're gonna do great things.

(46:16):
then I realized that's why all of the partners that came into my life, the very samethings that they loved about me were the very same things that they were trying to
dismantle about me once we got together.
Oh, I see how you're respected in your community and you're doing this at work and peoplelove you and this, that, and the fourth.
I see that you're doing this in school and your professors talk about you this way andbecause they're coming around with me, you know?

(46:41):
Like my ex-husband did a ride along with me.
He knows what I do for work, you know?
And so I'm having this conversation with my mom.
We're going into all of these details.
And I'm like, you have continued to live in this state of denial.
which is how we've gotten to this point with my brother, with my sister, and now with me.

(47:04):
And I just refuse to continue to like be in this toxic cycle.
And I realized that sometimes when you are the one that's breaking that generational cyclewithout having a healthy blueprint, because that's a whole other conversation, right?
Sometimes you're going to catch slack from your parents for that too.
And then I really had to think about in my family dynamic, my grandmother didn't have ahealthy relationship with my grandfather.

(47:30):
He was a breadwinner, right?
But he had four different women show up to the funeral for my great grandmother's funeral,right?
So those kinds of mindsets are what get passed down, right?
And then with my mom and her relationship, her marriage with my dad, her marriage with mystepdad, those are things that are still reflected, right?

(47:50):
stepped out abusive too?
Yeah.
Okay.
Physical, emotional?
Emotional and psychological.
And financial.
oh And again, we didn't have these conversations to provide clarity when I came of datingage.
And I'm like, that was when it was so important because it would have changed myperception of what I allowed into my life.

(48:13):
And then to realize that with my ex-husband and his family, everyone's looking at him,well, like he is our pinnacle of a good man.
Because the men that we know are physically abusive are far worse than what he is so hecan't be that bad and then I that's why I say like I had to realize this is all based off

(48:36):
of how Everybody views their perception how they grew up what's normalized to them?
all of it all of it and then I got to this point and I Found out after I had had aconversation
with my sister, but she slept with my ex-husband as well.

(48:57):
Stop.
So he knew that my sister and I had a strange relationship way before years back.
And he used that as an extra, as an extra knife to say, okay.
How'd you find out he made sure he read his mouth about it?

(49:19):
No, so here's the kicker.
She did.
So I said, when he came to ask for my hand in marriage at my dinner table at my house, shestarted crying at the table.
And I said, what's wrong?
Why are you crying?
And she said, well, you know, you have other options.
And she was right.
I did have other options of people who were interested.

(49:41):
But I was like, I'm not interested.
You know what I've been doing with school, with work?
I wasn't interested in dating anybody else.
He came back into my life.
We already have a history.
This is why I'm, it's not like I'm chasing him down.
Like he's been flying halfway across the United States for almost a year to get me backinto this point.

(50:02):
And it didn't make sense to me at the time.
I just dismissed it.
uh that you were choosing that.
She knew.
And so I confronted her and I said, all of these years, I would ignore the fact that Ifelt like you were trying to compete with me, that you were jealous, that you felt like

(50:25):
you had something to prove, even though you were our mother's golden child.
And I said to go behind my back and try to sleep behind me.
Like, what does that do for you?
What do you gain?
They're not marrying you, they're not having kids.
Like what is the point?
If you feel like that is the only way that you can cut me down, do better.

(50:47):
because that's not helping you be seen any better.
And I had the conversation in front of my mother and she immediately said my ex-husband'sname.
that's when my mom knew.
That's it clicked for my mom as well.
Because she was in denial.
She kept saying, no, your sister's not jealous of you.

(51:07):
She just admires you.
It's just admiration.
So imagine having two people essentially lying to you and gaslighting you and saying, no,it's not what you think it is.
Absolutely.
that you're supposed to trust more than most, right?
So after we have that conversation, I had to leave, I had to leave.
I left the house and I realized I have grown up around nothing but dysfunction and thepeople that have come into my life, especially my ex-husband.

(51:34):
That's like the devil incarnate at this point.
And she's crying, she's upset.
Well, you chose to marry him.
I said, he asked for my hand.
I didn't chase him down.
I didn't chase anybody down that I've dated before.

(51:55):
and never in a million years would you have thought that your sister slept with him.
But when you're a sex addict, anything that's blocking that looks like...
moves.
Right.
Yeah.
Do you and your sister repair things?
We will never talk again.

(52:16):
And I let that be very clearly known from that moment.
And even with my mom.
We've had multiple conversations where it's just like the level of denial that you livein.
It's like it has to get to the point where you have nothing left in order for you torealize what's going on.

(52:40):
and they won't until they absolutely have to.
And that might never happen.
goodness.
So I had just been in isolation.
Yeah, because how do you trust anyone?
I'd been in isolation.
I've been going to class.

(53:04):
Thank God I roll right into my master's program.
Yeah, because this is just late last year.
So literally November to January, I was there for almost two months in Chicago.
I get back and realize all of the things that have just unfolded.

(53:26):
And this person has known me for nine and a half years at this point.
Yeah.
This person knows my previous relationships, this person knows my family and their issuesand has utilized that information to completely try to decimate me.
And the same person that has been telling their friends and family, she's crazy, she'sjealous, she's insecure.

(53:47):
No dude, that's who you are and have been this entire time.
All
And you're trying to project that onto me or you're trying to put me in a mental healthspace where it's, I feel low, right?
Where I would feel low about myself because it's like, why do all these people around mekeep betraying me?
do start to think it's your fault.

(54:07):
There is something wrong with you like Yeah, no, I get
and some of the most honest conversations I've ever had has been with strangers and someof the most caring and honest people I've ever met have not come from my immediate circle.
And that's sad, isn't it?
But it's reality.

(54:29):
Now imagine, right, I'm doing, and every time that I've been in a tumultuous relationship,I've been at the height of my career.
Every single time.
So I always, I jokingly say now that the, the devil couldn't get to my ambitions, so wealways sent in life partners under the facade of love and support when they were really
just trying to break me.

(54:52):
I'm sitting here and I'm giving these presentations about intimate partner violence downat U-Dub.
and I'm getting the emotional whiplash of realizing like I was just in and emotionally andpsychologically like marriage.
I've had to deal with betrayal with my son's dad because that was normalized for them.

(55:17):
Is he still out of the picture with all this is going on?
My son's dad?
Yeah.
Yes.
And we had a conversation a couple of weeks ago.
A couple of weeks ago, and we were honest about what was going on.
And he said, yeah, well, your sister did try with me.

(55:38):
and I turned her down but he's like I thought I thought you knew I thought you knew whenwe started arguing
Like with family like that who needs enemies, right?
But if your mom never had a successful relationship and your sister's never had asuccessful relationship and they see that you're trying to make the changes and the

(55:59):
choices to have so, sometimes that envy gets turned up a notch.
I just have the hardest time with that because I'm like a girl's girl, all those things.
I don't think you should ever, I don't care if it was somebody's boyfriend 20 years agoand they just, you don't touch those people, they're off limits.
Well, I even take it up a notch.

(56:20):
I'm never jealous of envious of somebody else's life because I don't know what they had togo through to get there.
I could possibly be looking at a part of a chapter and I have no idea what the rest ofYeah, that person got that new car.
Great.
They bought that new property.
Great.
They got married, they have kids that are happy.
Great.
I have no idea what they had to lose in order to get to that point.

(56:43):
And if God were to sit me down and say, well, if you want that, you're going to have to gothrough this.
Are you going to take it?
Right.
And I don't think people think about it that way.
They'll automatically see, well, she's she's gorgeous.
But if if God were to tell you, well, she's gone through X, Y and Z, though she's beenassaulted, she's been down on the dumps, she's been homeless at one point in time.

(57:04):
Do you still want it?
Most people would say no, but we're not looking at it that way.
We're looking at it at the surface level.
And so even when I thought about my ex-husband, it's like, really think, like I just feelthat's a pitiful human experience to know nothing but transactional relationships.

(57:29):
Whether it's with his family, whether it's with his friends,
and whether it's with anyone else that he has dated.
of course, if...
you've been in relationships or chosen previous partners where he's felt like he's had anupper hand as far as power dynamics, right?
Because of his career, because of the money he was making that he was like, yeah, no, youmy first wife, she was a stripper, of course, you know, but that's a running joke in the

(57:56):
army, military, it is, you know, you get stationed somewhere, you're like going out to thestrip club on the weekends, you pick a girl up and you're like, yeah, girl, I'm change
your life, right?
You know, and then I do remember that like,
to other of his wives, was like, well, they just needed green cards.
So he's always wanted to have the upper hand and dictate in that relationship.

(58:19):
So when it came to me, it was like, well, she's got her own property.
Educated.
She's well respected within her community.
She makes more money than I do.
What can I do to like get her to the point where?
I feel comfortable in our relationship dynamic.

(58:41):
Let me give her this nice promise that's wrapped up all nice and pretty.
And then when I get there, let me rip it from underneath her and hope that I've broken herenough to mentally stay.
Now when we talk about people who have, because I'm in law enforcement, obviously I'mgoing to school.

(59:03):
When we're learning about domestic violence and psychological abuse and emotional abuse,he's a sexual assault response coordinator.
in a Chicago, Northern Chicago Marine Reserve unit base.
That's his job.
He gets the same training.
Yeah.
Knows all the same tactics, but just uses it for evil.

(59:28):
Mmm.
That's why I'm second guessing when we're having conversation.
And I'm like, am I not communicating my needs clearly?
Am I not saying what I need?
Like, is this not?
Well he wants you to second guess yourself.
Because you have to be beneath him for him to be happy.

(59:48):
the minute that I ever had valid points in a conversation will stop trying topsychoanalyze me.
Am I trying to psychoanalyze you or am I just effectively communicating my needs and wantsand you're just telling me that you're not needing them so you're trying to change the
trajectory of the conversation?
Yeah.
To make it seem like I'm a crazy person.
Of course.
Got it.

(01:00:08):
Okay.
But this took me separating from him and getting back to Washington and realizing, ohcrap, this is just what I've been through.
Right.
You know, and something I've seen just recently, we had um a girl here from Utah and shewent through like horrible domestic violence for like 18 years.

(01:00:34):
And even online, listening to people like, and it starts to piss me off and sometimes I'llsay something back because they'll say stuff like, well, why didn't you just leave?
And why didn't you this?
And why didn't you that?
And you should have done this and you should have left after he did this.
People don't realize.
where it's like you feel like you don't even have a brain.

(01:00:56):
Like, um I just couldn't, I couldn't leave.
I didn't think I had the strength to.
I thought I was a shit person because that's what he was always telling me.
Like there's all these things that people don't think about.
They don't stop and think for a minute and try to put themselves in someone's shoes.
And they have no clue.
I'll be quite frank, if I didn't have experience in law enforcement working with domesticviolence survivors, if I wasn't going to get my master's in social work, if I didn't have

(01:01:28):
a separate support from the people that were around me like a therapist, and if I didn'thave financial backing, I wouldn't have been able to leave not even my first marriage.
Right?
Right?
You can't leave any tumultuous relationship when you don't have those kind of resourceslined up.
And you have women who get into those relationships, right?

(01:01:51):
Because this person lied to them.
They lied to them.
So now you're telling me that they have to figure all of this out while being mentallyabused.
And we're just sitting there telling them, you should have just left.
You should have just called the police.
You should have this.
You should have went to your parents.
Even if you leave and you have children the way that the system is set up especially whenit comes to there's a reason why criminal court and Family Court are separate One judge is

(01:02:18):
not going to trump another one now in some extreme cases They may say hey you are such adanger to the mom that we are gonna place the kids on the protection order as well But
oftentimes, you know what they'll do.
They'll say yeah, you'll have a protection order against you and mom But dad still getsvisitation rights, right?
So now you still have to share custody with your abuser
Now I still have to worry about the finances, whether they want to pay child support ornot, how this is going to work in the court system.

(01:02:44):
And then family court will say, and I've seen it in Washington state, parents havecriminal records.
They've got drug issues.
They've got, well, we're more focused on reunification.
You guys got to figure it out.
Yeah, dad's a danger to you, but we have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he'sdangerous to the kids.
And even then they'll still say, well, he'll get supervised visitation.
Right?

(01:03:04):
He can go to three or four classes and he'll be rehabilitated.
Right.
Just, crazy.
if that weren't the case, we wouldn't have so many situations where we read the news andsee that the kids have it continuously been used as a pawn, of course, to maintain contact
with that abuser.
Even if, and that's the frustrating part, you take a Psych 101 class and it's like, seethe power and control wheel and children are still an extension of that.

(01:03:30):
But we blame women for not leaving.
he's the woman's fault.
Right.
You should have made better choices.
Or they should have just been better people.
That works too.
And even when I see that work, gets me fired up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And even when I see it at work, like sometimes my coworkers will get frustrated and, know,they don't know my personal story.

(01:03:57):
But sometimes I want to just look and say, well, I'm a domestic violence survivor.
Am I an idiot to you?
Right.
I've said it so many, mean, my specialty was psychic addiction for 20 some years, but Icame from like bad domestic violence, all the things growing up.
What do I choose?
Oh, and I had a child at the time that wasn't even his, but I got the shit beat up.

(01:04:20):
Like when I look back now, I'm like, God, I should have known better, but I was young andI was beat down.
And it doesn't matter if I know.
all the psychological things.
I know all the things that I'm supposed to know, but when I'm in it, I wasn't able tohandle and deal.
I couldn't.

(01:04:41):
It's like you're under a spell.
Yeah.
So it pisses me off when people like say those things because they have no clue.
Right.
Or it's like, you know, this is the eighth time that we've shown up to the house.
Well, it takes domestic violence survivors on average about eight times to leave.
But guess what she is doing every time that we show up?
I'm going to give her my card.
I'm going to give her information on resources.

(01:05:03):
And she's planning every single time that we show up.
And I don't care if she's adding just more information to her tool belt.
Eventually she's going to get to the point where she's going to say, I'm ready to leave.
Yeah, and don't get us wrong it nine times out of ten.
It's a man, you know Yes, but there are women too.
Yes.
know people will criticize about that but majority, you know, it is a man.

(01:05:25):
Yeah um
And mean, even for LGBTQ community, uh know that they're still, you know, they're comingup with research for that.
They by far have far more, uh more violent incidents of domestic violence because it'staking less serious.
Because when we typically think about relationships, it's from a heteronormativeperspective.

(01:05:45):
And so it's always based off of men and women, ah which is its own, again, that could beits own separate conversation.
when we talk about culture,
Right?
That's the part that makes me, I had to think about it from that perspective of, yes,these things happen to me individually, but how did the community play a part in it?

(01:06:09):
How did the system play a part in it?
And I think the grace of God, me being able to have all of the different perspectives thatI have once I got back to just being by myself in my own space and my mental clarity.
How were you when you came back?
Like after hearing about what your sister had done and your back and all that justhappened and then you have your son and you're alone.

(01:06:36):
Like what state of mind were you in if you don't mind sharing?
I'm just curious, because you are strong.
You are a strong person and you have been through a lot.
but we also have weaknesses, you know, that people were not as strong as everyone thinksyou are.
You know, what did you go through during that or did you just like...
I snot, nose cried a lot.

(01:06:59):
Okay.
Snot, nose crying in the shower, melting down the wall.
Why me, God?
What did I do to deserve any of this?
And I really had to process through that part as well.
And that's all I was saying.

(01:07:20):
If I didn't have Shanae, my therapist, if I didn't have her in the way that I did, I wouldfeel a lot crazier.
If I didn't have...
financial resources to be able to still make sure that my bills were paid after I had leftmy career the second time.
I would completely be in a different head space, 1,000%.

(01:07:42):
Because that is 1,000 % survival mode when you're worried about where your next meal isgonna come from, which is another thing that people don't take into consideration.
And I had to realize, I made a cup of coffee one morning, and I walked downstairs, and Itook a deep breath.
And I said, I'm safe.

(01:08:03):
And I've built the life that I wanted to build for myself because of how I grew up.
And I've bought a house that I don't have to worry about anybody else's energy dictatinghow my day is going to be.
or anyone taking it from you.
And that was again a byproduct of how we grew up.
I remember my stepdad had kicked us out in the middle of the night.

(01:08:26):
And so I said, I will never be in a situation financially where somebody is dictatingwhere I lay my head at night.
And I've made all of those decisions because of that.
Because joining the army, getting out, going straight into civilian law enforcement, goingstraight into school, I made all of those decisions because of how I grew up.
And then my mom kind of...

(01:08:47):
ignoring me the way that she did, aided in that because it was just like, well, I got tofigure it out anyway.
So I'm going to make sure that my foundation is at least solid in this aspect.
And that brings me to the point of, you know, Abraham Maslow, Maslow's theory, right?
The hierarchy theory.
When we talk about like physiological needs, ah air, water, shelter, warmth, right?

(01:09:12):
For my mom, if she didn't have that, she's going to make sure that that's all her kidshave.
because in her mind, that is a foundation that she never had, so that's good enough.
We're not even looking at the higher, we're not even looking at any other part of thattier, right?
And for me, it's like, well, that was great, but it wasn't enough.
Let's look at the self-esteem part, let's look at the love and sense of belonging, andthen let's get to a point where self-actualization is, it's like we're capable of getting

(01:09:40):
there.
And because I had tried to make sure that
I provided those basic needs for my son and I'm able to look at the higher parts of thatpyramid.
I want to make sure that he's able to get to this point of the human experience.
Regardless of what relationships I have to leave, regardless of what communities I have tocut out of my life, regardless of what jobs that I have to get rid of, because I, and

(01:10:07):
that's a part of breaking that generational curse.
I want to get to that point where he is not only physically, spiritually, mentally,emotionally, financially safe.
but that he has the point of his life to realize like, man, I have the freedom to just tryand figure out who I am as a person and what my purpose is.
Right.
It's our job.
Right, but your parents sometimes are going to be upset with you for breaking those cyclesbecause they weren't able to.

(01:10:33):
I always tell people too when it comes to generational traumas and when you break thesetraumas, it could be the loneliest time of your life.
Yeah.
I can't, my mom's never gonna, she can love.
I think it's coming from a place of love, but I still know that there is a tinge of, howdid you figure it out?

(01:10:56):
And I didn't, and I didn't even teach you all of these things.
It's like jealousy, but not jealousy.
Like they're envious of that when you want them to be proud of you and be happy that youdid it.
And it just doesn't come out that way.
I've been there, girl.
And even for my sister, we've grown up in the same household.
We had the opportunity to make the same decision.

(01:11:18):
If not, she's had more opportunity than I have because even when she had the kids superyoung, my mom was always there supporting her and changing her jobs to make sure she can
go to college and all of the above.
Whereas I had to just figure it out.
I noticed that the frustration, especially like with me and my mom's relationship was thatit was like,

(01:11:42):
How are you able to have these conversations with me now in adulthood after everythingthat you've experienced and you're still wanting to make better choices for yourself and I
didn't teach you this information.
So it's like, yeah, you're breaking these curses or at least trying to because you're notstaying in these relationships as long as I did.
I'm not staying in that marriage for 10 years, 15 years while this person is still doingall of these things.

(01:12:07):
But I still had to, part of the curse was I still had to go through them.
because we never had those honest conversations about what occurred.
We never had those dating, vetting conversations of like, this is what you should expect.
So it's literally like I got thrown to the wolves.
I went out into the world and got thrown to the wolves.

(01:12:28):
And even when it came to my sister, we all grew up in the same house.
but we just made different decisions.
And so sometimes the jealousy and envy can come from, well, how is it that you're stillmaking these decisions?
And we both grew up in the same house and had the same opportunities, but you're doingthis.
Like you're sitting there going, just ask me, let's help each other, be my cheerleader,let's be each other's cheerleader, that's how it's supposed to be.

(01:12:55):
people get in their own.
And imagine when you're showing up authentically in your relationships and yourfriendships and your work environment and your family, and because everybody else puts on
a mask every day, you're being labeled as a crazy one.
Right.
Of course.
You're the one that's the problem when you're calling out the dysfunction.
Well, dysfunction operates best when nobody questions the rules.

(01:13:17):
Yes.
That's the whole point of it.
So yes, in this family dynamic, you guys have normalized infidelity and this familydynamic, you guys have normalized making your partner's self-esteem low.
Right.
And your expectation is when you and I have come together that it's like, well, how dareyou love yourself enough to leave?

(01:13:38):
How dare you love yourself enough to question how everybody else in my family has beenraised?
How we've done things within my own family dynamic.
Right.
or the black sheep as people like to You're not the black sheep.
What's that saying that generational trauma will continue to happen until somebody in thefamily is willing to feel all of the emotions or feel all of the...

(01:14:03):
And I'm like, well, somebody's feeling it.
The amount of fights has been between Tyson and Holyfield at this point.
I used to always get, you forget where you came from.
No.
I very much so remember and that's why I don't want to be anywhere near it.
Right.

(01:14:23):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, because you go on with life and you do things and you're successful and then that'slike a problem for the people that are still stuck.
And you're never gonna change their mind.
They decide themselves, but good luck with that.
And I can sit here and I could have been as honest as I was with my ex-husband and said,dude, if you're struggling with mental health, if you're with substance abuse, if you're

(01:14:52):
struggling with alcoholism, you have to do the work.
but all of the relationships in my life to include my intimate partners as well as myfamily, everybody has expected me to carry the emotional weight for everybody.
Everybody has expected me to show up as a therapist and to be the one that's the mediator.
And that's how I've continued in a way that self abandonment, right?

(01:15:12):
Because I'm doing it to appease everybody else.
The minute that I came back and had all of the honest conversations that I did witheveryone to include my ex-husband, you'll never hear from me again.
I laid everything out for everybody and I said, I'm cleaning house because I'm looking atthe little person that stares up at me every day.
And I absolutely refuse to allow him to go through this.

(01:15:35):
And he may not have the best male role models in his life right now, but even if it turnsout to be a coworker, that's a good role model for him.
Right.
That doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be an intimate partner for me.
Right, right as long as he has someone in his life that is able to show up and say heyThis is how you treat women.

(01:15:58):
Yes.
This is how you talk to women This is how you respect women then I'm okay with that That'sbetter than absolutely nothing right and I'm also not gonna continue the generational
cycle of the inability to have communication I'm gonna admit to my son the mistakes that Imade because I didn't know any better But once I learned better I did better

(01:16:21):
That's what matters.
And that's that's what comes with self mastery of experiences.
Sometimes you have to go through it to get through it and I be going through it.
It's like, okay.
Yes, this sucked.
Yes.
There is grief attached to this What's the lesson?
What can I really take from this so that I do not repeat the same mistakes And I had tolook at it from a bigger picture my first relationship was physically abusive

(01:16:52):
My second relationship dealt with infidelity and how children are used as power dynamicsin a relationship.
My now ex-husband has shown me what a trifecta looks like.
Right?
But that was like the final boss.
That was Bowser.
Okay?
That was Bowser.

(01:17:12):
Because now it's like, okay, buddy, you may have won the battle, but I'm always going towin the war.
I'm still here.
And instead of me showing back up into the world with shame, that's not mine to carry,because I didn't do any of the things to you that you've done to me.
uh I'm still gonna show up with more empathy, more kindness, more understanding, and youknow what else you did for me, buddy?

(01:17:35):
You're gonna make me better at my job.
You're gonna make me a better advocate.
You're gonna make me a better mother.
So thank you in the end.
And thank you for exposing my own family dynamic weaknesses.
Because now I know what boundaries and expectations and standards that I have to set forthe people around me and the people that were already in my life.

(01:17:56):
So where do you go from here as far as being able to trust people?
That's gonna be work within itself.
uh And I understand that, that that's gonna be work.
Yeah.
But I think a part of it too is, again, when we talk about survivors and we try and shamethem for their story, that's not her shame to carry.

(01:18:17):
That's not his shame to carry.
It's the people in communities that did that to that person.
It's the abusers.
They're always the one to blame and no one gets that.
So tell your story because they thrive in your silence.
Abusers thrive in silence.
They want you to be complicit with their actions.
Because you're not going against the grain.

(01:18:37):
You're not going against the status quo.
And then you're also showing them, OK, but you didn't break me.
I can't wait for people to hear your story.
Because it's strong, it's powerful, it's...
You know, when you're in those situations, it can go so many different ways.
For sure.
I mean...

(01:18:59):
I'm just glad that my son was there too, because I really think that a lot of it goes backto him.
And once I became a mother, I really stopped carrying the weight of other people'sexpectations.
Right.
In terms of, don't leave the relationship because you don't want to be a single mom.

(01:19:24):
You're afraid of the stigma.
say that all the time.
Right.
You don't want to be a single mom.
Don't.
I can't do it on my own.
Right, just make it work.
Well, you just got married, why would you leave your ex-husband?
You guys just got married, why would you leave?
Well, because he did X, Y, and Z.
I think one of them is enough to leave, but finding out about all the rest of it, Having aconversation, confronting that person.

(01:19:51):
Did you ever confront?
on the other stuff or did you just let it go?
Like your sister?
We never had a sit down conversation about it, but he confirmed it because after I hadsent him an email, I pretty much said like, you know.
You don't wanna change, that's fine.

(01:20:12):
You're a drug addict, you're a sex addict.
This is what you have going on mental health wise.
You refuse to do the work.
Coming into my life under this facade and painting me out to be the crazy person to yourfriends, family, and community when they have no idea how you actually operate and how
strategic you are.
Right.
Or maybe they do.
Right.

(01:20:32):
I mean, who knows?
Not for you to worry about anymore.
And then I said it as far as my sister is concerned Thank you And then he called my mom
For what?
For his side of the story?
Yeah.
Of course.

(01:20:53):
He couldn't help himself on that one, huh?
And so that's how everything lined up.
People always tell themselves eventually.
did.
oh Even my sister, when we had the conversation, the fact that she said his name first waslike, well, I never said who it was.
But thank you for confirming.

(01:21:14):
Yeah.
So when I leave out of people's lives and there's no more communication,
You can't question why I left.
There's no room for, maybe we can reconcile, or maybe you should have gave this personmore space to work it out or think about it from their perspective.
I can think about it from their perspective, but that's very sad and pitiful.

(01:21:36):
Yes, and it's not the toxic relationships that you want in your life.
not at all.
I don't want to make an excuse for that behavior.
I don't think people really change that much unless they absolutely want to.
So you'd be struggling with that for a long time, family or not.
And people always say midlife crisis, midlife awakening, midlife clarity.

(01:22:00):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah?
Because then it just clears the way for like, okay, now I get to knock down all of thelegal blocks and I'm going to build the life that I want with the people in it that I
want.
And it's never too late.
A lot of people think too.
If they've been in a situation for years and they're stuck, they don't have any otherchoices, it's never too late to start over.

(01:22:26):
And you always have a choice.
They may try and trick you to make you feel like you don't have a choice.
And the choices may not be comfortable, but you've always got a choice.
You do.
Wow.
Now, I really am excited for people to hear this, because there's a lot of empowerment.
I hope so.
I know I was probably all over the place.

(01:22:47):
I had my notes sitting down here and I'm like, I didn't even look at them that once.
I didn't even look at them that once.
No, I thought I think it's amazing.
think you have an amazing story and it has to empower people when they hear it.
I hope so.
And then I really do hope that from like a larger perspective, just the conversation ofintimate partner violence or domestic violence, it changes people's perceptions because it

(01:23:12):
really can happen to anybody.
And I think we oftentimes have this, and you know, I know obviously stats match withcertain socioeconomic statuses that, know, demographics that match with, you are more
likely, right?
But that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen to anybody and everybody.
And now that we're more aware of the different
levels and the different categories of it.

(01:23:37):
You might want to have a conversation with grandma.
You might want to have a conversation with your mother, with your aunt, because there aremore than just women who are getting physically abused or men getting physically abused.
Reproductive abuse is a thing.
Grandma has seven kids because she didn't have a choice.
She couldn't just leave because the only job that was available for her was a maid or ahouse teacher.

(01:23:59):
And guess what?
Legally, she couldn't own a bank account.
She couldn't rent an apartment because they can discriminate against her for that.
We have to take all of these things into consideration and then realize that, the youngergenerations have more options when it comes to financial freedom, but how hard is it to

(01:24:20):
break the mental normalization of things?
All right.
when your mom and your grandma are telling you, oh, he's, well, he's better than how yourgrandfather was.
Right.
You know?
This...
Right.
Yeah?
It's a real thing.

(01:24:41):
Wow.
So what would you, where do you think, like where do you feel like you're at now?
Cause it's been what eight months ish?
How far like kind of like let everyone know how you've progressed and how far you've comefrom ugly crying, you know, and it's not crying or whatever kind of I can imagine.

(01:25:01):
Yeah.
Like what you went through to where you are now.
When I thought about, so I read a book a while ago.
um It didn't start with you and how inherited, you know, family trauma shapes you and howto the cycle.
think it was Mark Wolin and the body keeps score.

(01:25:22):
And so I realized, okay, the very foundation that I thought that I had is destroyed.
And so I'm going to cry about it.
I'm going to go to the shooting range.
I'm going to do somatic exercises.
I'm going to go to the rage room.
I'm going to go to therapy and I'm going to put myself in a position where I'm thehappiest and healthiest person I've ever been, but I've got to feel it and I've got to get

(01:25:46):
through it.
And that's the part that I think a lot of people, we, it's ugly.
It's not linear and it's not going to be pretty and it's not going to be what everybodyelse goes through.
What works for you is going to work for you.
One day you are going to wake up and say, man, what a blessing it was at the end of theday.
to get to this point and realize that I don't need these people in my life.

(01:26:09):
And so it was about the fourth month that I was back where all of the blessings startedcoming in at once.
And that's when I was like, this is like, this is the definition of when you get peopleout of your life that were never supposed to be there.
God gives you your blessings.
Meaning he's not gonna give you your purpose, he's not gonna give you the things thatyou're supposed to be doing when you're still surrounded by people that he doesn't want

(01:26:35):
there.
I got hired, rehired by a different department, making two and a half times that I wasmaking before.
I'm able to afford a private nanny for my son.
All of his medical coverage is gonna be under this.
I got accepted into the grad school that I wanted, which was like the first school ofsocial work in the US.

(01:26:55):
ah I wrote a book.
I published my diary from this experience.
My therapist was like, hey, I just think you should journal.
And I found like a self-publishing thing.
And I was just like, you know what?
Somebody else might need this story too.
we have to make sure that you give that to Kenna so she can post it.

(01:27:16):
And it's like a raw, you know, the grammar looks messed up because it's like the pen movesfaster than your thoughts.
But I want to get these thoughts out.
And it talks about betrayal and trauma and generational cycles and getting to a point andtrusting yourself and believing in yourself that like there is the blessing and the
lesson.

(01:27:37):
and then I'm able to do this, get to a point where I'm able to talk about it and not beashamed of it.
And I get it, there's probably still gonna be some people on the internet that are like,you're a cop, you're oh getting your master's in social work, what do you mean you went
through this on more than one occasion?
Well then read the studies, dude, of how intimate partner violence and adverse childhoodexperiences, how the cycles tend to repeat.

(01:28:03):
They do.
and the work that has to be done behind the scenes to really try and break that and howyou are going to be ostracized when you're the black sheep and you're calling things out
and you have to be comfortable with being alone.
And I've always thrived in solitude.
It wasn't until I invited people into my world that my world started to crumble.
Mmm.

(01:28:25):
That's an important point.
But now I'm at a point where I can accept things for what they were, what they are.
And I'm okay with that.
And if that makes me the villain in anybody else's story, oogity boogity.
You know?
Like I'm okay with that.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(01:28:46):
Girl, I see you.
Mm-mm.
Thank you.
It's amazing.
No, this is amazing.
This platform.
Just that you got to come here and tell it all is amazing.
just, I love it.
Thank you.
Thank you for coming.

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