Sexual Trauma and Sex Therapy with Emma Smith, PhD

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi and welcome back to Beyond the Monsters.
Today I have Emma Smith here with me and I'm gonna let her introduce herself because shedoes quite a few things.
go ahead.
Okay, so my name is Dr.
Emma Smith and I'm a licensed professional counselor and certified sex therapist.
And I'm licensed here in Tennessee and also in the DC, Virginia, Maryland area and Texas.

(00:28):
Okay.
So is that like through telehealth, you'll do that too?
I just recently relocated from Washington DC to Nashville and so yes through the magic oftelehealth.

(00:53):
Some of my DC clients were absolutely thrilled to not have to sit in traffic.
I know Nashville complains about traffic but I promise a whole different story.
Yeah so that's what I do.
Yeah.
And I, I'm like excited for you to actually talk about, you know, something that youspecialize in that a lot of people don't talk about.

(01:14):
And it's, know, when you have sexual trauma or, know, different things occur like that,that you actually help people get back to some sense of normalcy in that area.
If I'm explaining that right.
Right.
Okay.
Can you like just
Tell us a little bit about like what you do and like what kind of trauma victims youusually work with and.

(01:36):
Sure.
So I started out as a baby hatchling counselor like 12 years ago.
And I had been married to a Marine at the time who had served overseas and been in combat.
I was all about, I thought I was going to do military trauma.
Right.
Right.
Well, then this amazing opportunity came up and we ended up stationed someplace that was

(02:03):
only in like the civilian world and there was no military bases nearby it was at auniversity in Texas and I said my gosh what am I gonna do and so somebody said well you
can do your hours at the local sexual assault resource center and so I said okay and so Iended up working with these survivors

(02:25):
it so much.
found them so inspiring and empowering.
And so then I just kind of stayed in that track and even when I went back to work for themilitary as we kind of like moved along, I still stayed with a main focus on sexual
trauma.

(02:45):
Okay.
Do you think that there's just a huge difference in working with sexual trauma victims,compared to say PTSD or just other kinds of traumas?
Has it been challenging or I feel like it's very, it's hush hush still.
It's kind of, people are afraid to reach out.
People are afraid to get help in that aspect.

(03:08):
I think that I think that people are much more comfortable to talk about.
I have PTSD then I have you know sexual trauma, right?
specifically and sometimes it gets layered in with a bunch of other stuff to write and soit may be sexual trauma and religious trauma like that's another one or sexual trauma and

(03:29):
military experience Or it could be, you know, I mean a car accident
Right, right.
Anything, you know, there's so many different things that can be traumatic.
And so it is interesting.
feel like, you know, if I tell people I'm a therapist, I work with trauma.
It's it's a conversation opener.
Right,

(03:51):
There's so many different directions.
Yeah.
Right.
I can really clear a room sometimes.
I bet, I bet.
when do people, do they just reach out to you or are people sent to you?
How does it work?
Yeah, so these days I think that people find me on Psychology Today or any of that.

(04:15):
So I'm out there in the world.
Most of my referrals are somebody who has worked with me in the past.
And then they come across another person in their life and they're like, hey, I gotsomebody for it.
Because therapy is so, I mean, you want to go to somebody who knows.

(04:35):
about your specific issue, right?
And I think you're right to bring up that sexual trauma is kind of its own little animal.
And to trust someone, even a professional or whatever, to trust someone with those likeyour deepest, darkest secrets, kind of your biggest insecurities, I'm sure come with that.

(04:56):
And it's got to be scary.
So how do you like, how do you make people feel comfortable?
How do you, you know, really dive into the issues that they're having?
Is it like, is it a long process or?
Well, so what I like to tell people is, you know, it takes as long as it takes, right?

(05:18):
And one of the ways that I start out by making or trying to help people feel morecomfortable is by giving them back one of the things that was taken from them.
And that is consent.
Right.
And so I am a huge, huge nerd.
And so I really try to lay out and do a lot of psycho education about, hey, you know, thisis what's going to happen.

(05:42):
And then
we're gonna talk together about, you know, here's the different modalities that we canuse.
Which one do you think would feel best to you?
So like with, you know, there's several trauma informed and trauma researched modalitiesthat you can use.
Like EMDR is one, cognitive processing therapy is another one, prolonged exposure isanother one.

(06:09):
There's others too, but I'm trained in all three of them.
Okay.
And the reason why is because EMDR is great for people who maybe like more experientialand want a more somatic experience where you're really kind of tapping into what's going
on in your body.
My cognitive processing therapy is more narrative based.

(06:32):
And so if I have people who really want to write and they want to process outside ofsession, that's their
That's how they do their best work.
We have options for them.
I love that you explain it to them and then you allow them to help you make the decisionon what's best.
I think that that's so important.
Yeah, it has to be a collaborative process with me.

(06:54):
And then the other thing is, I'm not super uptight.
Right.
Right.
And so I don't want anybody to ever feel like, I don't know, like they're going to horrifyme with their story.
Yeah.
Right.
Like that kind of thing.
Or that they have to protect me.
Because the other thing is that all the people I work with are all really nice people.
Yeah.

(07:14):
They're the sweetest, wonderful, just like I really, truly like.
all of my clients.
And so, you know, and we have a conversation kind of like this, like this is, we could bein a therapy session right now.
And just kind of, we just talk, you know, we talk about what's real and we can be gritty.

(07:36):
I tell them like, can curse if you need to curse.
You're not going to offend me.
I'm from, I'm from New Jersey originally.
I tell people I'm like from one of the most offensive places out there.
You're not going to offend me.
Yeah.
So we just kind of go with that, you know, and then we go at their pace, right?
If somebody says to me, they come in and they're like, I had a client one time tell methis.

(08:00):
They're like, I didn't even want to come today because you're just going to ruin my day.
That kind of is true though.
Sometimes if it's, you know, with therapy, if you just really don't want to talk about itthat day, you're like, God, but then there's other days that you're just like, yeah, I
need to talk about this.
Yeah.
But I think it's actually really important to come in and say, I don't want to talk aboutthis today.

(08:23):
And then, so my response to that person was, well, do you know what you would want to talkabout?
And so we ended up talking about something that was like, actually it ended up beingrather related, right?
But it was something that was more growth focused or empowerment focused.

(08:43):
And so like strength-based.
Right?
Like it doesn't always have to be, I think that one of the things with trauma therapy thatpeople are so afraid about is that they're just going to feel awful after every single
session.
they're probably coming to you, you know, where they already might feel shame or they'reembarrassed.
And I would think that that's probably a hurdle that you have to kind of get through inthe beginning, right?

(09:07):
Because they're your self-esteem.
If you have to come in and talk about that, it's just you've probably already been dealingwith it for a while, I would think.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
I think one of the myths about working specifically with sexual trauma is, you know, I'vebeen doing this for 12 years, right?
And so for the first six years of my career, every single person had sexual trauma.

(09:29):
Every single one.
And now I kind of have a variety.
And I would say that every, with rare exception, most people have trauma, right?
I think I can count on one hand how many stories
how many complete stories of the traumatic event I have heard.

(09:50):
Because you actually don't need, I don't need the play by play for what happened actually.
And that's one of the things, know, working with somebody who is specifically traumatrained is so important because I know I don't need that.
Right?
This isn't just a, you're gonna come in and spill your guts and magically we're going to,you know, bibbidi-bopbidi-boo and you're gonna feel better.

(10:14):
The things that I'm most concerned about is the story that you ended up telling yourselfabout yourself because of what happened.
Yeah.
And so sometimes like that handful of people are like, I just need somebody else to hearthis.
And that's fine.
I'm trained to be able to receive that and not give you dead puppy eyes.

(10:37):
Yeah, right.
yeah.
I'm so sorry.
Yeah, yeah
of thing or be like, oh, oh, oh, oh.
Like, I don't know which one of those is worse, it's helpful.
So I don't do that to people.
One of the reasons I really wanted to bring you on too, because you are a professional anda specialist in this area.

(11:03):
just in the last, just the month of January, we've probably got like over a thousandsubmissions of people wanting to come on and tell their story.
And I could be a little off.
I'd say 70 to 75 % of the people have some sort of sexual trauma.

(11:27):
It's mind blowing.
I would have never thought.
But that is like the core of a lot of their issues.
And that's why I thought that it was important because we've had people from beingsexually assaulted and abused from the time that they were two years old all the way to
adulthood.
And yeah, I'm just that's why I wanted to bring you on because a lot of people just youcan tell all these people are telling want to tell their story.

(11:54):
They do want someone
to hear it, but it's really obvious that they haven't dealt with it yet.
As their story is being told, like in the few paragraphs that they send, and it just mademe really sad that people don't know, I don't think that there's that kind of help out
there.
They just think therapy, I gotta go sit and talk about everything.

(12:17):
And they just avoid it, where I think that you might be able to...
you know, explain how you do it to where you make it more comfortable like you alreadyhave so far, like how you start, you know, with people.
That's a big deal because not all therapists do that.
They don't try to collaborate.
They just wanna, there are amazing therapists out there.
Don't get me wrong.

(12:37):
So nobody has to come for me on that.
But the way you make it collaborative is huge because a lot of people don't do that.
And then that's why people feel like,
my therapist says this, my therapist says that.
And they don't even explain it to them, they just tell them to do certain things.
That's just my two cents on it.

(13:00):
Yes.
mean, so far it seems to work.
People keep coming back.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OK, so maybe we should do like, you know, just for people that are listening or watching,like if I am.
Say I'm a 35 year old woman and I have childhood sexual trauma and all of a sudden I'mstarting to have memories of things of that trauma that I didn't have before.

(13:31):
And if I'm going to if I come to you.
How can you maybe help me and help me process things?
So, okay, so the first thing that I would do is I would have somebody come in and I'mgonna take a really thorough history.
And again, and not everybody does that either.
Right.
Right.
But the first session, I kind of break it up into two sessions.

(13:52):
So the first session, I'm gonna come in, I'm gonna learn, you know, what's happening now.
Right.
And then like, how is this showing up in your life?
You know, are you...
Finding that certain things aren't pleasurable anymore.
Are you finding you're sleeping too much or too little or you can't focus or somethinglike that, right?
Something has typically stirred the pot and so I want to know what that is and then thesecond session I always say we leave that we leave the second session for family

(14:23):
Because that's a big one.
Is that the big one?
Well, and the other part is that's strategic because when I, you you never want to go to atherapist who doesn't have their own therapist, by the way, that's like going to a dentist
with bad teeth.
Right.
So when I was in therapy, I always thought it was so off putting that some of mytherapists, I think that they learned more about everybody else in my life after the first

(14:48):
session.
So I'm like, no, the first session, we're just going to focus on you.
Right.
Right.
And I want to learn about you.
I want to learn what you do for fun, what makes you tick, all of that kind of stuff.
Of course, yes, the problem too.
then the second session, we kind of focus on therapy.
not focused on therapy.
Sorry.
We focus on family.

(15:09):
Family history.
But family history is who's in your family and also how did your family show love?
How did they express conflict?
When did you know, especially with
you know, now most of my clients are either sex therapy clients or sexual trauma, right?
Recovery and we can talk later about how those two go together.

(15:32):
But one of the things we'll talk about is like, did you, when were you first aware thatyour body was for other people's consumption?
And it's amazing how young so many people say that.
And I don't mean that it actually is for other people, but like especially

(15:53):
I'm sitting here trying to think even with myself like huh I don't know.
You know, when did you become aware that like other people were consuming you in some way?
And it's really interesting how many people will say five, you know, like early elementaryschool or something like that.

(16:13):
Yeah.
And so it kind of gives me a perspective like where did this start to get formulated?
Because also we're a byproduct of the culture.
Right.
For sure.
And then talking about, know, did you grow up in purity culture?
You know, which I'm.
I'm yet to meet somebody who didn't.
Even if even if your family wasn't religious, like it's kind in the soup, you know, here.

(16:35):
Yes, yes.
Right, I mean even in New Jersey I got that too.
Right, but I think more so I have found that like in the south are people who grew up inlike very religious homes and stuff like that and don't get me wrong like religion can
have a lot of beautiful things that come out of it.
You know I still have a lot of my family traditions are rooted from having grown upItalian Catholic and like that kind of thing.

(16:59):
But also, but also you know being
you know, being blamed or even internalizing, you know, some shame or ownership forsomething that when we look back, I like as a little kid, you know, a lot of my work is
helping people as their adult selves look back and say, my gosh, I was holding myself tothis impossible standard, you know, and sometimes it'll be like, well, I should have known

(17:32):
better.
like, have you been around a nine year old lately?
Right.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
True.
do you trust them to handle?
Yeah, no, our oldest grandson is nine.
When you just said that, I'm like, yeah, no, there's no way you would trust that.
wow.

(17:53):
So, you know, so I kind of like walk them through that and then after we get all of thattogether, then we talk about, okay, so, you know, the way that I frame it is, you know, if
you're here to talk about sexual trauma, the way that I ask the question is, so, you know,when was the first time that something was taken from you that wasn't freely given?

(18:20):
Which just kind of levels the playing field because I think sometimes people can get intotheir own victim blaming, self shaming and everything like that.
it doesn't meet the definition.
I didn't report it.
I am not a lawyer.
I don't care about the legal definition.

(18:40):
I care about something was taken from me that was not freely given.
Right.
We want free and enthusiastic.
Right.
Like, it to be a hell yes.
And then we end up talking about that, you know, with as much or as little detail as theywant.

(19:01):
And I explained in that process, like, hey, we're going to talk about this, right?
You can stop at any time.
Clearly, you know, if you're sitting across the couch from me, you have survived, right?
So the things that we need to talk about,
are on this like imminent level of keeping people alive, right?

(19:23):
You have checked that box.
So we get to go at whatever speed you want, know, like that kind of thing.
So we just kind of talk about it in that way.
And I try to make it approachable, but not flippant.
Yeah.
But the one thing that I always, you know, I had a mentor really early on who said thisincredible thing to me and it has changed how I work with survivors.

(19:46):
And I think it's why I've been able to do this work for 12 years and not burn out.
And it's, you know, never desecrate somebody's story by offering them pity.
That person survived because they're sitting across the room from you.
And like, that is the magic of that person.
Right.
And like,
Don't ever let anything get in the way of that.

(20:09):
Right?
Like you really need to hold.
that's deep.
That's good.
so good.
Mm-hmm.
And so I just held on to that and like, no, like you are so wonderful and like whatever itis that you did to get yourself to this moment.
Yeah, you survived it.
like, you know, when you're in trauma, right, and you go into a trauma response, is fight,flight or freeze, not what response am I going to like the best later?

(20:44):
It is not, you know, and I used to work with the Marines, right?
And I would tell them this too, because like you get a whole bunch of young guys, youknow, fight, flight or freeze, which one do you think you would pick?
And they're like, fight.
And I'm like, well, so here's the problem with that is that the body's first response, thebrain's first survivor response is going to be to run, right?

(21:09):
It's going to be to run away.
Right.
And only if that option, if your brain does the calculus, right?
And says that option is not on the table, then it will go to fight.
And then if that one's off the table, because it's, I mean, and this is happening at like,hundreds, if not thousands of a second, bending goes to freeze, right?

(21:34):
And then there's a new one in there that's FON, which is
Yeah.
The acquiescing one and that's maybe even, you know, that gets thrown in there dependingon the situation.
Right.
But like there's no ego in survival.
So however it is that you survived, your brain did those calculations and based on what itsaw and who you were and the resources that you had available at the time, it made a

(21:59):
calculation and you are here.
So like you might not like the calculation that it made.
Right.
Right?
And it worked.
Because you survived.
That's so good.
So that's kind how we talk about it.
No, I love it.

(22:20):
think that that's amazing.
And I'm a lifelong trauma.
You name it.
I'll tell my story eventually.
But yeah, that that that is deep.
What you just I'm never going to forget that because, know, I did psychic addiction andforensics for almost 20 years.

(22:41):
So I saw everything and anything you can think of, you know, than trying to.
help people and not be judgmental and just all of that.
just, right there, that little phrase you said just made all that so different.
I wish I would have known that.

(23:02):
Good for your mentor.
So like, if when someone, you you guys start talking about that, like, what direction doesit go if they're...
Do you kind of gauge it on where, like you said, you gauge like where they're at now?
But if someone's starting to have these memories that are popping back up, then what?

(23:25):
Do you address those memories or do you figure out how to not obsess over them kind ofthing?
Okay, okay.
the first thing that we're going to do is my job is not to kick you into the deep end ofthe swimming pool without making sure that you know how to swim.
So one of the things that happens during those first two sessions where it's like a factand data gathering is at like the end of the sessions, I'll teach people one or two coping

(23:55):
skills to try out.
So that can be in like.
you know, thanks to social media, there are coping skills out there.
It's kind of the greatest hits, right?
It's, you know, are you doing a body scan?
Are you doing deep breathing or counting or, you know, I'll ask people like, what have youtried at this point?

(24:18):
Because so much is out there.
And so I kind of go based off of what they have already learned that works for them.
Great.
I'm not here to read.
Let's leverage what works.
Yeah.
And then I'll have them do little, little different ones to try out.
So the idea is like, I want you to in our by the end of our first six sessions or so, inaddition to some of like the fact gathering that we're doing and some of the early

(24:50):
processing work that we're doing, we're doing a lot of resource building.
And the reason why is because I don't want you
when we start processing to feel like you don't have a solid ground underneath you.
And that's going to take some time.
So build the foundation.

(25:10):
always want to build the foundation.
like every once in a while, get people who are really excited to do EMDR.
Right.
That's like, you know, it's not new, but it's well known.
Right.
Now that people are like asking for.
Yeah, because so many people are talking about how well it works.
and it can work really, really well for some people.

(25:31):
Right.
So I never promise like if somebody, you know, somebody emails me and they say, hey, Iwould like to do EMDR with you.
I'm like, great.
I would love to potentially do EMDR with you, too.
We're going to come in and assess and I will keep that in mind.
Right, yeah, because they'll read or hear of somebody else having a success story with itand they just automatically think that it's gonna work for them too.

(25:53):
Right.
And so I will I will take that under advisement.
Right.
But the first couple of sessions is always resource building.
OK.
And even with EMDR, you know, I will start people off.
actually do something called Safe Comfortable Place, which is about giving people theexperience of safety and giving them a visual and using EMDR to reinforce that visual to

(26:18):
kind of go.
But they end up with a.
safe, comfortable place or other type of coping and grounding strategy.
So we practice that and that's a way to like introduce the technique, but also inpositive, right?
So you're not trying to like learn something new and process trauma.
And so then we like walk through that, but sometimes people are disappointed because I'mlike, well, we're not going to get to process the trauma until a couple of sessions in and

(26:46):
here's why, you know, and if somebody says,
to me and this has happened, where they'll say, but my friend went and they like did, theydid EMDR like the very first day.
And I'm like, okay, I don't.

(27:06):
Well, even like with our with our clinics, our medical clinics, you know, we do, you know,what everybody else is doing, like semaglutide and terzapotide.
And I cannot eat that.
Patients always have to check in like once a week on a text line.
I can't even tell you how many times every single week people are like, well, I saw so andso lost 10 pounds in a week or so and so lost three and I only lost two and my friend did

(27:31):
this and it it's like nonstop.
It's not stop.
So we always have to say, listen, it's all individualized.
Like every single person is different.
Everyone's body is different.
So with you, it's like, yeah, everyone's brain is different and the way they process andthe things that happen.
I can see that being frustrated, frustrating though, because I can imagine people sayingthe same thing to you about that.

(27:55):
Yeah, and truly, I don't know what their friend, I can conceive that it's possible that ifyou're coming in to do EMDR for like, for example, you can do it for performance
enhancement.
You don't necessarily have to do it for trauma.
Yeah, probably you could do that on the first session, right?
Right.
Right.
It's something that is, sexual trauma is so...

(28:19):
potent in like the worst ways because it has a relationship that has been violated, right?
is person to person and it's very, very intimate.
so healing from that requires intimacy, a different kind, but like intimacy as well.
And so we want to make sure that nothing about the healing process mimics the violation.

(28:45):
Right.
And so, I mean, if you think about like good, healthy, happy sex and intimacy, right?
Then you think about like, there's a slow build, there's usually a relationship, there'sdesire, there's things like pleasure, there's, you know, over time, all of these things.

(29:06):
And the parallel is kind of the same in that like good healing from an intimate violation.
is going to have to occur very differently.
Right?
And it can't just be, you know, there's no, there's, there's no fast.
Gee, I never thought about it like that.

(29:26):
I don't know that I have necessarily ever articulated it like that before this moment.
Yeah, but that's so real and realistic.
So then it just, you just take each person individually and figure out like a treatmentplan.
Figure out the treatment plan.
We figure out what I usually end up saying to people is, OK, it's like six months fromnow.

(29:51):
I want you to imagine yourself.
You've done this work.
What are you now able to do?
How are you able to feel?
What's the goal?
But I want the goal to be something that is truly, it's not like this, oh, well, I will beable to, you know.
get up on time, three day, it's not, I want you to see yourself in your life and what doesthat life look like and what is different?

(30:19):
And then I verbatim say to every single person in six months from now, like, what is thisgonna look like so that you know that I didn't just waste your time and take your money?
Hey, straight to the point, right?
does that look like?
Right, right.
Because I want them bought in.
Yeah.
The other thing that that does, I told you I'm a nerd, that it starts this process ofenvisioning yourself healthy, envisioning yourself healed, right?

(30:48):
Maybe not totally, but just like on that track.
Yeah, because that matter, that matters that you're able to see yourself in that way.
You're seeing yourself without some
element of suffering.
Right, right, right.
What are some like, obviously, I know you can't give exact examples, but like, what aresome of the things that people come to you for?

(31:11):
as far as like detailed, as far as like something that happened to them, just so peopleknow, maybe they can relate.
Like that's a thing that relating to like if it was a rape or whatever it might be, how dopeople come to you and tell you what they need?
And what have you experienced?
Like what are some instances of, you know, different traumas, like sexually, that peoplehave?

(31:38):
Yeah, lot of I think the most frequent one is, you know, I went out and I met this personand they were really amazing and we were having a great time.
And then like we had some drinks and like then, you know, I went back upstairs and likethat was all good.
And then like it's it's consensual, consensual, consensual, consensual.

(32:00):
and then something shifts, right?
And then it was, ooh, maybe this doesn't seem like a good idea, or maybe I'm feeling alittle too drunk, or something happened where it started to shift.
And then this person is like in this person's apartment.
They don't necessarily know where they are, or they may not have a way out that, you andyou think about not only purity culture, but how many of us were raised.

(32:29):
to be polite, right?
And then it's like, I don't want to.
So I think the most common one that I hear is the one where it was easier to just go alongwith it.
than make somebody else feel bad, right?

(32:51):
So that's probably...
of truly worrying about their own wellbeing.
Or like, wait, I don't know this person.
So if I say absolutely not, I gotta go, you know, I mean, I'm a little person, right?
I'm 5'2".
So like, you know, if you think about the average man, 5'11", six foot, probably close to200 pounds.

(33:15):
You know, like that's not even, right?
And so the decisions.
that are made in those moments, that could be a fond response.
That could just be like, ah, yes, I'm gonna get through this.
So that's probably the most common one and I love bringing that up because I think peopledon't think that counts.

(33:37):
Another one might be, this is one that ties in marriage and religion together that theywere raised in.
environment where it was, know, women will submit to their husbands, right?
And like that kind of thing.
so.

(33:58):
I think it's way more common than we think even today.
So common.
That is so, common, right?
And depending on the voices that you have around you, know, sometimes I have been the onlyperson in that person's life to start with, because I usually get them into a group,

(34:19):
right?
Who's saying like, yeah, that inner knowing that you have that like that wasn't okay.
You're right.
Like that little part of you that's like,
this feel so bad?
Like this is what I'm supposed to be doing.
So that's another really common one.

(34:40):
you know, and then there's the ones I think most people can think about, which is, youknow, like, unfortunately, like forcible, right?
Like forcible assault and rape.
The other one is I work with a lot of Really?
Who are sexual survivors, sexual assault survivors.
Wow.
There are so many men who have been abused.

(35:03):
In childhood or both?
Yeah.
And is it usually like family and things like that when they were younger?
Yeah, it's the, you know, it's the greatest hits.
It's a family member.
like incest, incest is way more common than we think of it.

(35:24):
I don't know if you saw that article.
Was it in the Atlantic or something where they were talking about the DNA test kits?
No.
And people were finding out like how common incest was because the DNA matches were comingback.
No, I did not see that.
my God.

(35:45):
Right, like so that was something but even male on male sexual abuse, right?
And then it's you know coaches teachers pastors neighbor down the street You know likethat kind of thing So there's that right so like male on male sexual abuse Like that kind

(36:06):
of thing which is not necessarily tied to sexual orientation by the way I think that'salso a myth
Right.
Right.
So it's because there's assault is about power and control.
It's not about sex.
Even if it has a sexual component to it.

(36:26):
yes, I end up working with a lot of men.
I think they're much more likely to be abused under the age of 18.
So it's much more likely to occur in childhood.
And they are infinitely less likely to report.
So you have people.
It's interesting because sometimes I'll see things that make the news and whatnot.

(36:46):
And I'll see these people who don't seem to have a lot of empathy or care or concern forothers.
And I'm like, hmm, what happened to you?
Exactly, Yeah.
So yeah, but most my clients are women, but I also want to point out.
Yeah, and then you work with them differently, too Right

(37:07):
So now are there, are there men that that happens to them from women?
Yes.
Like women, wow.
Yeah, I've worked with female clients who have been sexually abused by women as well.
we don't talk about that either.
No, we don't okay.
Yep.
Still is it round family mostly?

(37:28):
Younger family, but I also work with the LGBT community, right?
And so what I love to tell people, like when I do trainings and whatnot is, you know,heterosexual people do not have the monopoly on terrible relationships.
it exists across the board.
Yeah.
So, yeah, in fact, for my dissertation, I did a study on sexual assault survivors and itwas a small study.

(37:51):
It was a qualitative study.
So I only had seven participants.
OK, right.
But of those seven participants.
I think at least three of them had one sexual assault that involved a female perpetrator.
Right?
And now I had people who were assigned female at birth and had people who were assignedmale at birth.

(38:13):
And so like...
Okay.
across the board.
So I thought that was really interesting.
Yeah.
When I was working for the Marine Corps, I had a predominantly male audience, if you will.
Right.
And I was doing sexual assault prevention training for them.
And one of the ways I got them to pay attention was to ask them when somebody had askedthem for their consent.

(38:35):
And they were like, I'm sorry.
What?
Right, right?
Got their attention for sure.
Cool.
Yeah.
They didn't know.
I mean, like, did not know that theoretically, you know, somebody would be asking them.
Right.
And all of a sudden this wasn't about, that's just for girls.

(39:00):
Right.
Right.
was like, right.
And that's how we.
So it's not just something that I need you to do for.
the women in your life.
I need you to do this for everybody, but that also includes you, right?
Right.
Yeah.
gosh.
Now you do some stuff with addiction too, right?
Or is it like comorbidity kind of thing?

(39:22):
It's more comorbidity.
Since I have moved here, I have gotten a lot of people who have been reaching out askingfor things, for help with things like porn addiction or sexual addiction and that kind of
stuff.
And I come from it from a little bit of a different model where I talk about more aboutout of control sexual behavior instead of using the addiction lens.

(39:46):
Okay.
Yeah, I know that, you know, pornography addiction is way bigger than I thought it was.
Like when I've been researching some stuff lately, it's way bigger.
I never really thought of it as being like a full blown addiction, but yeah, it's outthere.

(40:09):
And starting at young ages too.
Yes.
Yeah, the exposure, the early exposure is definitely a problem.
I mean before, you know, back in the day it could be found mom and dad's tapes ormagazines and all that kind of stuff.
But now it's like they can go on anything and find it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, although it did not law just get enacted

(40:31):
I did read something about that in certain states where you have to like, yeah, something.
Yeah.
Get your age.
Yeah.
Which I was like,
Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe that'll deter people a little more.
I don't know.
I mean, I think that's the goal.
I don't know how to.

(40:51):
their ID on there?
Yeah.
You would think but in the addiction world, I don't think anything stops people unlessthey really want to, you know.
What other things do you do in your practice?
do a lot of couples therapy.
And so I think one of the reasons I got into sex therapy was because I had these couple orI was working with individuals, right?

(41:19):
And then they would have a partner and they have a really wonderful partner who is like, Idon't want to be associated with your trauma.
Right?
Or sometimes the other person.
major like intimacy issues.
and so sometimes it was I had you know like I said my clients are very nice people and alot of times they are with really nice people who write I don't want to be associated with

(41:45):
the perpetrator.
And so I would say okay.
All right, let's talk about this.
And so we would start kind of like war gaming.
Like, OK, let's bring your partner in, sign a release.
And I'm still your therapist, but we're going to bring him in next so that we can talkabout how might we navigate this.

(42:12):
And that was really fun, actually, to kind of talk about, OK, so how do we work throughthis?
When you do like exercises with them like that, are they like, like they relax for aminute and then they're open to it rather than being like nervous about talking about it?
Does it help?
Sometimes I mean sometimes they're very nervous when they come in, know, and I just Ithink that like for me I have to both remember that I'm really comfortable talking about

(42:42):
these things at this point and So I try to be a little sensitive about that And just nameit like hey, I may ask you a question You do not have to answer it if you don't want but
please know like you're not gonna weird me out and usually it's actually that
People are more concerned that they're gonna weird meow.

(43:05):
And I'm like, I've been doing this for 12 years.
You can tell me literally anything.
Yeah.
If you weird me out, you will get a prize.
So far, nobody has won.
Right.
Because I think that's one of the things, too, is that if you were going to go to workwith somebody, right, one of the things I noticed in this area in particular is that you

(43:28):
have a handful of people who are ASAP certified sex therapists, requires like 209 credithours.
post-masters, post-doctorate to get certified.
And then you have to go through supervision.
mean, it's like having a second master's degree in that area specifically.

(43:52):
But then you have people who offer sex therapy, right?
And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I work with sexual issues.
It's totally fine.
And I'm like, ooh, OK.
I want to know how it is.
that that like how are you that naturally comfortable with this and maybe it's possibleand like I know the hoops that I had to jump through in order to learn this and so really

(44:18):
is a specialty so yeah that's lovely that some people are like sex positive therapists orsomething like that but not to be confused with this like laundry list of courses where
you go through because one of the one of the first things they teach you to do
most people wouldn't know this.
No, ask or to look, you they would just listen to the person saying, yeah, I know aboutthat.

(44:41):
knew about that.
Because there's certain things that you would never ask somebody with trauma to do thatyou might do, you know, if you're like reading, you know, some of like the self-help books
or something like that.
definitely want somebody who like knows how to balance that and interpret it.
And it's going to be like, hey, they've actually done studies.
you know, I've learned from, I've been so fortunate to learn with some of the like mostamazing like leaders in the field.

(45:08):
Yeah, it's been so good.
But
to get back to the earth.
So like, you know, I'd have people coming in and they would want to know, you know, areyou weirded out or anything like that?
And I'm like, the first thing that we do in sex therapy training is they take us throughthis 14 hour training and it's called a SAR and it's a sexual attitudes readjustment.
And it's basically you and a bunch of other therapists and you just consume and hearlectures and learn about every

(45:41):
every act that you could possibly think of and some that you can't even think of.
And then you have to process in like a group therapy setting, process all of your baggagethat is coming up around it for 14 hours.
that when somebody comes in and says, this was done to me or.

(46:05):
I like this or I fantasize about, like some people get real freaked out by their ownfantasies, right?
That you're not like, I'm sorry, what?
Right?
Or at least it's not the first time that you're hearing it and you're like, okay, likelet's talk about that.
You know?
And that doesn't mean I'm like, great, that's super healthy.

(46:26):
Keep going.
Like to every single person.
But it does mean that shame isn't part of therapy.
Yeah.
Right?
let's talk about that.
And one of the most common fantasies that survivors have is actually sexual assaultfantasies.

(46:48):
It's one of the most common ones.
And boy, is there a lot of stigma around that.
Because people are like, what?
And so very briefly, I will say, it's actually not about the acts.
Okay.
It's not about you wanted this or that's you're messed up most people when that sort ofthing comes up for them, it's about You know fantasy occurs in a safe environment Mm-hmm,

(47:19):
Fantasies can be stopped whenever I choose right Fantasies can involve You know theexperience of pleasure that most
sexual assault student.
there's where they had no control and they're assault.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, like, and so there's a million different reasons.

(47:42):
And it's something that you can come in and talk about because it's, you know, like nobodytalks about it.
So I don't know how like how common it is necessarily.
It is more common than you think and is more normal than you think.
Like you're not broken.
You're not going to horrify me or.
Yeah, I could see that being a thing that people wouldn't want to be like, Hey, guess whatmy fantasy is?

(48:04):
Yeah.
Or let me tell you about.
Yeah.
But like when we actually sit down for a minute and explore it people usually understandwithin like a session or two like where that's coming from or like What is about it that
they're focusing on and there may be maybe that's never gonna be Like that particularfantasy isn't gonna be good for them, but if we can dig out that golden nugget, right?

(48:29):
We don't have people to find another place to put that thing that is like
good for you and not tied to your trauma.
wouldn't that be lovely?
right, exactly.
Do you work with any of the local SANE nurses at all?
Do they call it that here?
For sexual assault examiners?

(48:51):
haven't yet.
That would probably be something good for you to do is like get connected with thembecause they're the ones doing the exams and right there with them and if people actually
were able to be referred to someone, you know, to talk to right out of that trauma.
Yeah, well I know we do have the sexual assault resource center here, right, or the sexualassault counseling center, I believe, which is lovely because they have the hotline and

(49:19):
they have the crisis resources.
So when people are in crisis, right, you want to send them, I usually want to send them toplaces that are staffed.
I'm a party of one.
Staff for like that 24-7 care because if you have kids done, right, if you go for thatexam,
If you end up talking to law enforcement, if you end up talking to lawyers or anythinglike that, know, those resources, those places will have victim advocates who can

(49:51):
accompany you.
good, okay.
I'll have to get that information from you so we can make sure we put that in the body ofthe...
Yeah.
Yeah, and I have to I am NOT connect again.
I'm really new here, so I haven't connected with them Okay, but I do know that they existYeah, and you know rain has the website where you can go and find the locator and like

(50:14):
that's always a really great resource So I think that at this point.
I'm a little bit further out from the crisis side of things And more into like most peoplewho come to see me are coming
weekly or mostly like every other week.
learning tools and suggestions that you give them.
And they're usually on like stable ground by this point.

(50:39):
So, but I mean the first six years, that's everything that I did.
Wow.
Well, I mean, it's great that you have that experience, though, with the trauma, immediatetrauma side, because that's hell for anyone.
It is.
is.
Some of my colleagues in DC, when I shared an office, they were like, nothing freaks youout.

(51:04):
You're like, well...
You know, because it would be, you know, in private practice, it was like, I don't know,paperwork.
Right.
Somebody didn't sign this form.
OK, well, I guess I'll go call them.
You know, and like, that's really important.
It needs to be done.
Right.
But like, no, my blood pressure is not spiking over paperwork anymore.

(51:24):
Right, right.
Those days are over.
Yeah, it's nothing.
Exactly, exactly.
So another thing that I love telling people about or that I love talking about is, youknow, I kind of had this interesting entry way because I say, you know, I worked with lots
of sexual trauma.
then I'm like, oh, but mostly, you know, these days I'm doing kind of more like sex andcouples therapy work.

(51:48):
Right.
And so that's been really fun.
And but one of the reasons why, though, is because
Sometimes when you go to work on your trauma, we talk about symptom management, gettingthose coping strategies in place, learning that it wasn't your fault, getting some of

(52:10):
those negative stories out of your head and out of your body so that you can go.
they're like, yes, so that you can like.
go off and live your life.
And it's like, well, that's lovely.
Right.
Right.
And so they kind of say like, OK, so there's post-traumatic stress and then there's likeneutral.
So we try to get you back to neutral.
But then there's this whole other side that's post-traumatic growth.

(52:32):
that's maybe people think about like, I have better self-esteem now or I'm more outgoingagain.
I can live my life.
I had the courage to change careers.
right
so we talk about that.
What we don't talk about is that a lot of times people don't bring up or the therapistdoesn't prod into, has your sex life recovered?

(53:03):
Right?
Because that's important too.
When you bring that up or you say that, are some people just like, wait, what?
Like, are they like, why she asking me that?
Or do they kind of let it flow?
Typically by the time I bring that up, I have a relationship with the person.

(53:24):
if they've looked me up online at all, then they kind of know.
But typically the response that I get is more somewhere along the lines of, do I get tohave that?
me, now?
Even with that.
And so I...

(53:48):
I worked with a therapist in DC who was going for his sex therapy certification and he waslike, you need to do this.
And I was like, no, I'm good.
I'm like the trauma person, whatever.
I grew up Catholic.
I got my own bag of baggage.

(54:09):
And he said to me, he was like, I'm sorry.
No, if you can talk about trauma with people, you can talk about good and happy sex.
And I was like,
Okay.
You know, and so my joke is that when the pandemic hit, everybody was doing sourdough,right?
Everybody was doing their sourdough starters.
And I tried and I failed at it twice.

(54:30):
And I was like, I have to go back to my roots.
I just have to go back to being a nerd.
And so this is going to be it.
So I enrolled in a PhD program and started taking classes for sex therapy.
And here we are.
Right.
This is my pandemic project.
And so I, know, there's what has happened though, is that now I get to talk to peopleabout reclaiming pleasure.

(54:55):
Right.
Right.
You can reclaim your autonomy, your voice, your independence, your confidence, pleasureand desire get like often left off the list.
And I love that I get to help.
Yeah, that's
I mean, wouldn't really think of that normally, that that would even be part of yourtherapy, but it's so important to be able to get back to that space.

(55:18):
Yeah, I mean, if people want to, right?
Like if somebody's like, nope, absolutely not, I'm not going to be like, well, you know,right?
Obviously not.
But most people it's, I didn't know I got to ask for that.
Hmm.
You know, I didn't know I get to have that.
Yeah, I get to have that for sure.
know, and what we usually end up finding out along the way, kind of the same idea, like,you know, a lot of people will talk about post-traumatic growth in this idea that

(55:47):
We're never going to say that you have to be happy or grateful for the terrible thing thathappened to you.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
However, because you had to unpack that and because you had to heal from that, hey, yougot this like extra basket of stuff of growth and confidence and all these good things.
We call that post-traumatic growth, right?
What we often end up finding out about like sex is that even if somebody thought that theyhad a healthy sex life before, they still had a lot of shame.

(56:15):
They still had a lot of purity culture baggage.
They still had a lot of other stuff that along the way, because we're here, we get toclear that out too.
And so then people get to explore even more so that they find out, like we don't justbring them back to, so you can be intimate the way that you were before.

(56:37):
It's like enhanced because it has all the weights kind of pulled off of it too.
Okay.
I have a question.
Yeah.
So like when when couples one one of the people cheat.
Mm Do you know, then they have intimate intimacy issues.
You know, it's usually the person that was cheated on, obviously.

(56:59):
Do you help people try to get past those type of things?
Yeah.
Because I would think that that could be a real problem.
Absolutely.
absolutely.
And it's a long process, right?
And it actually occurs in like three distinct stages.
Everybody wants to rush through to stage two.
Right.
Right.
And the first stage is that crisis phase.
So that's actually where I do the crisis work now.

(57:21):
And it's not it's not standing on a ledge crisis.
At least not most of the time.
Right.
But the metaphorical edge, right?
Where your relationship is on the precipice.
For sure.
And we have to do that crisis work.
have to do the, hey, the person who was betrayed needs to work through their betrayaltrauma.
And they're usually doing that in individual therapy.

(57:44):
OK.
Because I'm like, I need you to have a place to just process the rough draft material.
then in couples,
You know, then it's and then the other person, the person who did the betraying, they needto go to individual therapy and figure out, OK, what was going on?

(58:09):
Right.
Because more than likely, it has nothing to do with the partner who was betrayed.
Right.
It has to do with that person having something going on.
A lot of the times with my couples, that person had
Needs that weren't being met.

(58:29):
And I don't mean sexual needs.
I mean like, yeah, you know, I need to be wanted.
I need to be desired.
I need to feel like a different person.
Right.
Not to be with a different person, but to like be with a different person here.

(58:49):
Sometimes like to feel dangerous, to feel edgy, to feel like I don't have to beresponsible because, you know,
cheating with somebody who I don't pay bills with, who hasn't seen me with spit about me.
Those types of things, right?
Which is why actually like the statistics for when like somebody, if somebody goes andlike let's say they have an affair and they end up leaving the relationship and they go

(59:17):
and they continue on with their affair partner in a relationship.
oftentimes, I think it's like 85 % of the time, that relationship doesn't work because thething that it was doing, as soon as you switch over into that relationship, ceases to
exist.
And so the cycle will repeat.

(59:37):
So sometimes it's like, once a cheater, always a cheater thing.
like, yes and oftentimes that person's not doing the work to figure out what was going on.
yeah, so I'll work with so it's there's a crisis phase and then there's a rebuilding phaselike a renegotiating phase You're not going back anywhere right you are that the

(01:00:04):
relationship that led you to Step out and break your relationship agreement and that one'sgot to be done Right because that wasn't working that got you here.
Mm-hmm How are you gonna choose each other going forward?
You know, and how are you gonna renegotiate a relationship agreement?
One of the things that we haven't really talked about that I do in and I did a lot more ofthis in DC Than in Nashville, although I know it's in Nashville too as I worked with a lot

(01:00:31):
of poly couples and ethical non-monogamy and whatnot and It has made me a better therapistfor my monogamous couples right because when you're working on multiple relationships
There is no we don't talk about stuff
Right.
You have to talk about everything.
You have to talk about everything with every single partner that you have.

(01:00:54):
And so, right, I've had up to five people in my office.
That is the one question I have not figured out yet.
And well, I guess if you're telling everybody everything, you don't have to worry aboutkeeping things straight, but still,
You know, it's one of those things where it is like my my scholarly like nerd hat I amfascinated and I love working with folks You know, can work with folks who are very

(01:01:23):
different than you right and and like be supportive of those relationships and say okay,here we go This is what we do.
This is how everybody's taken care of you know, that kind of but one of the things thathappens is like you
have to talk about everything.
so with my clients that have betrayal trauma or something like that, I end up pulling alot of material from poly and ethical non-monogamy resources and talking about one of the

(01:01:55):
things that happens with cheating is that two people can have very different definitionsof monogamy.
I share a personal story?
Absolutely.
So my partner grew up in the evangelical church.
And I grew up in the laziest version of New Jersey Italian Catholic possible.

(01:02:23):
keep learning, mom, you were really picking and choosing what you were passing through.
And so my partner grew up in this very strict environment.
And so at one point.
I what the specific situation was, but they're like, you're so chill.

(01:02:47):
You don't seem jealous or whatever.
I'm like, I that's true.
Go me.
It was very early on in our relationships.
yeah, I know.
I'm awesome.
I don't know.
Cool.
And then later on, something else came up about, hey, like,

(01:03:07):
How would you feel if I was having dinner with so and so and I'm like.
fine.
You know, it's a woman, friend.
You've known them for a long time, whatever.
Yeah, but like when I first met them, I thought they were like pretty.

(01:03:30):
And I was like, cool.
Did you ever tell them that?
You know, I don't know.
am I missing?
And so like, yeah, by all means, go have dinner.
Have a blast.
Why are you making this weird right now?
Well, the way that my partner grew up, that would be inappropriate, right?

(01:03:55):
To go have dinner one-on-one when you are partnered.
Oh, yes, see, for me, that would be too.
OK.
I'd be at uh-uh.
Right, and that's fine, but I had no idea.
You're like, I saying something wrong?
I I too go have dinner with my friends sometimes.

(01:04:15):
So I had no idea.
And so there was like a couple other things.
So we're not even talking.
I'm like, what?
And so eventually I finally said something because it got so weird.
And I said, hey, like am I I'm getting the impression that you want me to have a problemwith this.

(01:04:36):
And my partner's like, no.
I just haven't met, I haven't dated somebody who wouldn't have a problem with this.
And I'm like, what are you doing at that dinner?
That's so true.
What restaurant?
Because now I'm picturing what I think I'm picturing and that's not sanitary at arestaurant.

(01:04:58):
Like what is happening?
And they're like, no, no, no, no, no.
And so then they end up explaining that this would like that the way that they grew up,this would be completely inappropriate.
And I was like, and that, you know, monogamy meant that.
And I was like, right.
OK, well, monogamy for me meant not having sex with another person.
Mm hmm.

(01:05:18):
Right.
And they were like, right.
But here's the problem too, right.
So then we like, that's so that's the end of that story.
Right.
But here's the problem too is like, what counts as sex?
Right.
Most people think.
Emotional is a whole thing too.
Right and like what counts what's the line between friendship and

(01:05:46):
friendship, you know, like that kind of And Shirley Glass has a great book on that.
It's like it is a thick and dense read and it's called Not Just Friends.
And they talk.
mean, she really talks about this.
But also there's like there's all of these other, you know, are you allowed to flirt withsomebody else?
Are you allowed to fantasize about somebody else?

(01:06:07):
Are you allowed to fantasize about somebody else when you're alone?
What about together?
You know, it's like all of these questions.
So when you're working with betrayal trauma.
we're just gonna put everything on the table because I need you to consent and be inagreement with the minutiae.
Right, and everybody's probably so different with that too.

(01:06:28):
Like what you're saying, like I feel, and a lot of people would disagree, for me anemotional affair would be worse than a physical, it just happened or whatever.
cause I feel like emotionally, that's just so different.
Yeah.
It's a whole different level.
Yeah.
But that's like just my opinion.

(01:06:49):
Thankfully my husband feels the same way, but.
But apparently you've talked about it.
yeah, yeah, like in the beginning, too.
Yeah.
Good job.
Yeah.
So yeah, so I have lists.
So we just have like the, and so, and I'm just asking and you you'll watch this couple andthey're almost bonding as like over how weird they think I am for asking these questions.

(01:07:12):
You know, like, are you allowed to think that somebody else is pretty?
Yeah, she's like, I'm okay with that.
Great.
Is that an inside thought?
Or is that a shareable?
Right.
Now see, I'm okay with that.
You could say somebody's pretty or I'll even ask him things like, don't you think she'sbeautiful or whatever?

(01:07:33):
Like, we're good like that.
But then I have two daughters, 23 and 29.
And with whoever they're with, they'd be like, who you talking about?
You think she's pretty?
But I think it's sometimes as we mature too.
Back when I was in my 20s or 30s, I think that I would probably have been like.
What?

(01:07:53):
You know, that's just the way we were brought up, I guess.
But older, at 48, I'm like, no, I don't care.
So what?
Even our oldest grandson will be like, Mimi this or Poppy that.
if somebody, if say somebody's pretty and he just is like, oh my God.

(01:08:15):
But like you, how you are about like dinner.
Uh-uh.
would be like, for me, I would think you're opening yourself up to something.
But I could be completely friggin' wrong.
I think it really depends, right?

(01:08:35):
So, you know, I grew up in a large family and then I also grew up with mostly male cousinsand mostly boys in my neighborhood and everything.
so, and I was a little tomboyish, I was really athletic, you'd never know it today, but Iwas.
And so that's my context, right?

(01:08:57):
And then I also grew up in New Jersey where...
there wasn't like a strict, as strict of a, or at least like, I don't know, my family, myarea, whatever it was, it just, that wasn't odd.
And in fact, I went home not too terribly long ago and I was kind of like thinking aboutthis.
I was like, is it me?
Like, did I get that wrong?
And I went home and you know, one of my buddies from elementary school opened up a cafeand he's like, hey, come on up.

(01:09:24):
And I was like, okay, great.
Never asked like, would your partner mind or anything like that?
I'm like, I think it's just a different culture.
Right.
I think it's just a different culture.
But yeah, that was, what are you doing at that restaurant?
My goodness.
Yeah, yeah, I could see that.
I could see that.
But for other people, that may be very different.

(01:09:47):
know, like, and that's fine.
Like, don't, you know, for me, if you're telling me that you have, you know, if you'relike, let's say if one of your daughters came to see me as a therapist, right?
As long as your daughter and her partner are on the same page, like, I'm not going tocorrect that.

(01:10:08):
That's not a correct thing.
Yeah.
right.
We may talk about like, how do you communicate that, you know, or like, hey, when I seeyou check out another person in front of me, I feel blank.
Right.
I think when people are younger too, just that maybe it's immaturity.
I don't know what, you know, not really living that much of life.

(01:10:31):
The jealousy and things like that, the thoughts of all that are way stronger than when youget older.
Cause I've changed.
Yeah.
You know, I used to be just like that.
And, but I guess I can still be a little.
mean, but like, that's okay.
Right?
Like I think you're allowed to do that.
I mean, if it gets in the way, like let's say that over time, it got in the way of arelationship.

(01:10:55):
It gets in the way of, you know, it's creating conflict or you are withholding informationfrom your partner because you don't want to deal with their response.
Right.
Right.
Like those types of things, think.
then you kind of go, OK, hang on a second.
We got to check in on this.
Because even if there isn't anything inherently wrong with you feeling that way, the waythat it's playing out in the relationship is having an impact.

(01:11:22):
And we probably need to talk about that.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Learning to have conversations.
That's learning.
Conversations.
Yeah.
Wow.
All right.
Is there anything else you want to talk about?
I think you've touched so much.

(01:11:44):
And I do hope that people that, you know, are listening or watching too, that they...
know that they can reach out to someone like you and that they know that they really dohave to look at credentials and that there really are good therapists for this kind of
stuff out there.
And I think the unknown, this subject, it's like people are very scared of the unknownbecause you don't know what to expect.

(01:12:09):
You don't know who you can talk to or how it'll be or if you're going to be judged or ifyou'll ever get past your shame.
And I think you explaining stuff hopefully will help people.
I hope so.
I hope so.
And listen, I'm not going to be the right, like therapy is so personal.
I am not going to be the right fit for everyone.
Right.
But here's what happens.

(01:12:30):
If somebody comes in and they say, you know, they kind of, I always do a 15 minute likelittle vibe.
Yeah.
Right.
Because we got to see like, you know, right.
How are we doing here?
Right.
If that's off or like after the first or second session, if I'm like
this doesn't feel right or typically what's happening is I find out the issue.

(01:12:56):
There's something bigger here.
Here's what happens.
I will help you find someone else because I'm really used to reading the credentials.
Even though I've been here for a relatively short amount of time, I've met a lot oftherapists.
I wanted to get to know who those people were in the area.

(01:13:17):
and have started being able to say, this person's really great at that.
I really like how this person talks about X, Y, Z.
And I will help you find somebody.
But I'm not God's gift to therapy.
I am a therapist and I'm super nerdy and I think what I do is really cool and I love allthe people I get to work with.

(01:13:41):
And there are other people out there too.
And so if you come to me,
and it's not a good fit for whatever reason, no worries.
My ego is not in it.
I'll help you get to the place that you need to be.
You're in what other states?
you're Nashville.
So I'm in, I mean my office is in Nashville in Music Row or on Music Row, on?

(01:14:06):
Did we say on or in?
I it's on.
On.
Well, I'm too new, too.
Everybody knows where that is, that section is, though.
On, okay, so I'm on MusiGro.
But, you know, Tennessee, Texas.
then Virginia, Maryland, and DC.
Okay, so that's a wrap for today.

(01:14:27):
Emma Smith, she was amazing.
She's a psychotherapist and we are going to put all her information in the description andwe'll see you guys later.

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