September 10, 2024 • 40 mins
Hey, everyone! Thanks so much for joining us; we took a couple of weeks off, and we are so glad to be back with all of you to talk about birth photography and the complexities of our work.
Today, Monet and Jen dive into a crucial topic: what happens when a birth becomes traumatic. It's a tough conversation but an important one. We share our experiences and insights on how to handle these challenging situations, both as birth photographers and doulas.
Join us as we discuss the wide range of what can constitute birth trauma, how to be sensitive and supportive to your clients, and the importance of documenting even the difficult moments. Plus, hear about our recent birth stories and how we navigated those unpredictable moments.
We believe in creating a world where birth is visible, shame is absent, fear is translated to power, and each experience is honored. So grab a cup of coffee, settle in, and let's talk about the realities of birth work together.
Find out more about us, our courses, and other tools for birth photography at birthbecomesyou.com. Follow along on Instagram and Facebook @BirthBecomesYou. If you love listening, make sure to give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and subscribe wherever you listen.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us here at the Birth Becomes You podcast.
We took a couple of weeks off, and we are so glad to be back here with all of
you talking about birth photography and birth work and all the complexities of what we do.
Today, we're going to be talking about what happens when a birth becomes traumatic.
(00:21):
And this is obviously a really important conversation.
It's a hard conversation, but it's something that Jen and I talk about all the
time. Jen, how are you? It's good to see your face after a busy weekend.
I'm good. I had two clients in
labor all weekend, so it was just a little stressful, but otherwise good.
And I only ended up going to one of the births. So the other person is still
(00:45):
pregnant and there was no stress needed, even though there was stress at some
point. Right. It's often how that happens. Yeah.
It's often how it happens. I had three births over Over the last week,
I got mastitis in the middle of two of the births. So I feel like I am finally coming up for air.
But they were all like really beautiful, like relatively straightforward births.
(01:09):
So I'm grateful for that.
But it feels good to like get back to my computer and my desk and try to get organized.
Because as you know, like when births happen, everything just gets,
yeah, scrambled and shuffled around.
So yeah, trying to get back on to the same things.
Yeah. You're just gone for like
a day, just trying to like recover and process. So I get it. Absolutely.
(01:31):
Well, thank you again for being here, everybody. And we are super excited to dive in with you today.
Hi, it's Monet and Jen, and we are the co-founders of Birth Becomes You.
We are birth photographers and doulas with over 10 years of experience.
We've attended over 1,000 births collectively.
We started Birth Becomes You to create a safe space for new and experienced
(01:55):
birth photographers to share and grow.
We aim to equip and empower birth workers to feel confident in the birth space
and take beautiful, world-changing images.
We believe in a world where birth is visible, where shame is absent,
where fear is translated to power, and where each individual's experience is
honored as valid and valued.
We are so glad you're here and we can't wait to learn and connect with you.
(02:21):
So when we photograph births and when we attend births, we are hoping that they
are going to be beautiful, peaceful, and a joyful experience for our families.
But we can never guarantee that.
And so today we want to talk about what happens when you attend a birth as a
birth photographer or even as a doula, and that birth ends up becoming traumatic to your client.
(02:45):
It's a hard topic to talk about, but it's something that's really important
and guarantee you if you do this work long enough, you will encounter this.
There is a really like wide definition of what institutes birth trauma, right, Jen?
I think we both probably have examples where we thought like,
(03:06):
oh, this birth went really beautifully.
It was fast and quick and peaceful or from the outside side perspective,
the birth looked like incredible.
And then we find out maybe from our client, maybe from the midwife,
that actually it was a deeply traumatic situation, right? That definitely happens.
We also have births where things just go completely haywire.
(03:31):
And I'm thinking, oh my God, this is like crazy.
I would be so traumatized if this was me. And your client's 100% fine, right?
So I think the first thing that we want to really highlight is that you don't
like as the birth worker, you don't get to define what is traumatic to somebody else, right?
So if you attend a birth, and you think it's like peachy keen,
(03:54):
and everything went great, you don't want to assume that like you really need
to always let your client lead when talking about their birth experience.
Would you add anything to that, Jen, or does that sound? No,
I think that's like spot on, really.
Yeah. And we've all been to those births where, just like you said,
(04:15):
like it doesn't seem traumatic from the outside, but maybe it really is.
Like people internalize a lot of things and you don't know what is going through
somebody's head when they're in the middle of labor and in the middle of contractions.
And some people have a really hard time vocalizing that in the moment. Right.
So there's, I think it would probably be helpful to talk about,
and this is, again, this is like an informal list.
(04:37):
Jen and I are not, we're not therapists. Like we don't specialize in trauma.
This is just things that we've experienced as birth workers.
But I would say it'd probably be good to share a few things that might cause
trauma for your client, right?
I think sometimes when a birth happens really quickly, that can be traumatic.
When a client is anticipating 10 hours or six hours, and suddenly they're having
(05:02):
their baby almost precipitously, maybe in a birth location they weren't planning, that can be traumatic.
I also think, obviously, anything around obstetrical violence, right?
So anytime a provider doesn't provide true consent, anytime a provider doesn't
(05:23):
explain what's happening, anytime a provider violates somebody's wishes, desires,
words, all of those obviously can cause immense trauma. They've done a lot of studies.
And they've actually shown that when it comes to trauma, a lot of it isn't necessarily
the events that happen, right?
(05:46):
It's not like, oh my goodness, a shoulder dystocia or oh my goodness, a hemorrhage.
But a lot of times the trauma comes from the way that the care team is interacting
with the client or patient.
And so that is a big one. And it could be something as big as like a doctor
having an episiotomy without consent.
(06:08):
It could be something that you might think that doesn't seem like a huge deal
to me, but it is a huge deal to them because of their background,
their experience, their values.
Use, there's really a wide range of obstetrical violence.
And, you know, you might be surprised at something that you might not have even
(06:28):
thought about as being, you know, traumatic, ending up being very traumatic for your clients.
So I think that's important to consider.
And then other, I think, traumatic situations are just emergencies that happen in birth, right?
Like like a shoulder dystocia, a hemorrhage.
What are some other big, like I've had several clients lately that have had
(06:52):
babies with really big D-cells with contractions.
It hasn't resulted in any kind of like emergency C-section.
They all had vaginal births, but they had to hear their baby's heartbeat D-cell
into the 70s with almost every contraction, which could be traumatic to some people, right?
And then everybody rushing into the room to like manage that as well.
(07:14):
I feel like that is traumatic in and of itself to people.
If your baby comes out and needs a resuscitation, that can be traumatic, right?
And again, as birth workers, I've seen probably dozens, if not a hundred,
neonatal resuscitations.
And so when I see that happening, most of the time, I'm not panicked at all
(07:36):
because I know, okay, baby just needs a few breaths.
This is going to resolve quickly. This is going to resolve easily.
They've got a great team. But you have to remember for your clients,
this is probably their first time ever seeing anything.
And it's really scary when your baby comes out and needs immediate care.
And so again, like if you can walk away with anything from this conversation,
(07:58):
it's that what seems traumatic to you may not be what is traumatic to your clients.
So you really have to turn on that intuition and you have to really turn on
like, I'm going to listen and observe and watch my client and see how they're
reacting and not just lead with this is what I would personally feel if I was in that situation.
(08:19):
Are there any other things that I'm missing, Jen, in terms of things that can
cause, oh, I have a great one. Yeah.
What if, you know, I think this actually happens a lot more than we realize,
but maybe the birth was like, maybe it went fairly like smoothly.
There was no complication. You had a great provider, but maybe it just went
(08:40):
differently than you expected. Right.
I remember with my second baby with Eliza, I really wanted a water birth.
Like that was what I wanted with my birth. And for a variety of reasons,
I had to give birth on the bed.
And it was still like a beautiful birth. It was at a birth center.
It was four hours long. It was not complicated.
(09:02):
But I was really like, that was like a pain point for me.
I wouldn't, I maybe wouldn't use the word trauma, but it definitely made me
feel sad about my birth in a way that I wasn't anticipating.
And I'm sure like my friends and family would have never guessed that I was
having those thoughts. So that's something to consider, too,
is that if the birth goes differently than you plan, it can be traumatic,
(09:25):
too, right? Right. Yeah.
I would say that even about my birth. With my second, I had a VBAC.
And I remember one of my girlfriends saying to me, well, you know,
I'm so glad you got your VBAC.
You should feel happy that you got your VBAC. But I was feeling a little traumatized
because my VBAC was supposed to be at home.
And instead, we had to transfer to the hospital.
(09:48):
And so my perspective was, well, it wasn't really the birth that I had planned.
And I felt a little like upset about that. But from her perspective,
she had two C-sections and wished she could have had a VBAC.
You know, it really does come down to perspective.
It does. And I think, yeah. And we've had, I've had some really like kind of,
(10:09):
I don't want to say weird, I guess that's the wrong word, but just like kind
of violating things that have been happening,
at least that we've been seeing and discussing here in Michigan. again.
We had some doulas recently bring to our attention in one of our doula groups
that an OB at a hospital that we all really like broke a client's water without permission.
(10:32):
And they did it specifically because they didn't want to get wet from the water
breaking at an inconvenient time.
And they did it in front of the client. They kind of whispered about it with
the resident incident and made it feel kind of secretive and then acted like it was a mistake.
And that client is still, I mean, the baby is six months old and that client
(10:54):
is still working through the trauma of being like violated in that way when she wasn't asked.
We really have to, you know, as birth photographers, we are documenting these things too.
So how do you manage that when you're documenting and you've documented something that.
You know, that's really awful like that? What would you, what do you do?
(11:15):
How do you handle that? Do you give those photos to your clients?
Do you hold on to them? Do you put them in a separate folder?
What's your thought process on that? For me, I guess it's just different for every client, but.
Yeah, I was going to say that. I mean, it's not a black and white response, right?
I can't say this is what you should or should do because each of these situations are so unique.
(11:36):
And sometimes, again, you're not even clued in to what was traumatic or not.
I think I try to remind myself that my job as a birth photographer is to document
the real experience, how it happens.
Right. And I try to not let my own feelings or opinions about what's happening
(11:57):
dictate the way that I capture the birth.
Because as we've already talked about, what may be traumatic for me may not
be traumatic for my client and vice versa.
And so I feel like if I spend too much time trying to figure out like,
should I be documenting this? Should I not? Should I be giving these images? Should I not?
That I'm going to end up inevitably like not making the perfect right call because
(12:20):
I just don't have access to my client's inner psyche, right? Right.
But when I'm in the space, my job and my goal is to document, document, document.
And then sometimes after the fact, like if it's very obvious that it was a traumatic
birth, then we might have a conversation.
Like I might ask my client, hey, I took all these images.
(12:43):
How are you feeling? Are you ready to see them?
Do you want me to put a certain section in a certain folder and then kind of go from there?
Is that kind of what you do, too, as well, Jen? Yes, I do.
And I have just started doing more of the separate folder because I just want
people to realize what they're going to look at before they see it. Yeah.
(13:05):
And maybe that's just because I've had some more sensitive births lately.
I'm not sure, but I've been doing that a lot more. Yeah.
I can see when clients click on things and often they're not clicking on that folder.
So I think it's probably a good thing to be able to sort your images in that
way when you feel like it's necessary a little bit too.
Absolutely. So I think that for a lot of our clients, we serve both as doula
(13:31):
and birth photographer, but there's still many people that hire us every month
that are just hiring us for birth photography.
I do find, though, if a birth becomes traumatic and I'm talking about like obviously traumatic,
I do find that I end up putting on that doula support role more because oftentimes,
(13:52):
especially if there isn't a doula,
oftentimes I am the one person in the room that can kind of provide that emotional
support and even just explanation about what is happening.
Happening especially if the care providers are busy
attending to an emergency right
so oftentimes I will continue to
(14:15):
document but I will also step in
and just reassure parents kind of talk to
them make sure they understand what's going on and
put on that doula hat more than I would for another birth I think it's important
to be able and willing to step into that role I always tell people that it's
(14:37):
an honor to be invited into somebody's birth space. And I don't take that honor lightly.
And, you know, I may not be your doula, but I am absolutely going to step in
as your friend and someone that you feel safe and you trust.
And if there is an emergency, I think that's the perfect time to do that. Got. Yeah.
(14:58):
And oftentimes at the hospital, especially at the hospital, you are the only
person that's ever really talked to this client patient before.
I mean, they might have an OB in the room or a midwife in the room that they've
never met. They've probably never met their nurses.
Right. So you do have some sort of relationship with them.
And I think that lends itself really well to be able to give some explanation in that time.
(15:22):
I had a birth just the other night that it wasn't a shoulder dystocia,
but it was just like a little sticky at the end.
The baby just had, you know, took an extra second to come out and the midwife
needed the mom to move into some different positions at the end.
And it really scared the dad and he had to like step away and back,
(15:43):
you know, way out of the space.
And I was able to like still documenting, still filming, still shooting,
you know, turn to him and say, it's okay.
Like they're just maneuvering so that The shoulders can come unstuck.
Everything's fine. The baby's fine. Baby's going to be OK. And the baby was fine. It wasn't.
It really wasn't very long in the whole scheme of birth, but to him,
(16:04):
it was scary seeing the head out and seeing like the midwife kind of pull on the head.
But I wouldn't say it was a true emergent situation, but that didn't matter. It was traumatic to him.
Then his reaction kind of spurred his mother-in-law's reaction.
She was also there. Then she got really scared and they were really nervous for a few minutes.
(16:25):
And I was able to at least, or maybe not minutes, seconds.
And I was able to at least say, you know, everything's fine.
This is all fine. It's all normal.
And the baby was out seconds later. The midwife said the same thing. It's okay. It's okay.
But it did get hairy for a second. And, you know, all the staff in the room rushed to help.
But she's going to be able to look back and see those photos and see what I
(16:48):
documented because she was scared for a minute too until the midwife explained it later.
And she immediately said to me, Oh, well, I can't wait to see the photos.
I can't wait to really see how that turned out.
So, I mean, having these photos as a tool to process all of these situations,
I think, is also just really important and really powerful to be able to see,
(17:09):
no, you handled the situation. You reacted.
This is how it unfolded. And I think people envision that they maybe are doing
something different sometimes than what they really are.
And having those photos is really validating, I think.
It was definitely for my own birth. Yes.
Yes. I think that we hear from so many clients, from midwives,
(17:34):
from other providers, that birth images can really be such an important tool
for processing, especially if a birth is scary or traumatic.
Because honestly, that like.
Fight or flight activation happens and you
can forget a lot about what's happening you can
feel like you're having an out-of-body experience and you come back into your
(17:58):
body and maybe someone can explain what happened but i think a lot of people
still feel this like sense of like disassociation like whoa like what just happened
and having those birth photos be it like two weeks from now,
a month from now, six weeks from now, they can sit down.
And I have clients that will sometimes sit down with their midwife or their
(18:19):
OB even, and go through the photos and explain.
Because again, for you and me, like we, we know what's happening when a shoulder
dystocia is going on, right?
Like we've seen enough, we've read enough, we know enough that we understand
it. But like for your client and your client's husband, no idea, very little context.
(18:40):
And the midwife at that point in time is focused completely on getting the baby out.
They're not like worried about the well, like the mental well-being of anybody
at that point. They're just trying to do their job.
And so it can be really scary when you're in that moment and you don't know
and you don't understand.
And so, again, if you can be that person in the room that looks at,
(19:04):
you know, we talk about this with kids.
If kids can see that your face is calm and that you aren't freaking out during
birth, their nervous system quiets down.
And I find the same thing with adults, right? If my clients look at me and I'm
looking at them and I'm telling them they're okay, they have a great team,
they're working on it, it's going to be okay, that can really help lower their
(19:27):
nervous system, which is better for everybody.
If there's an emergency, the calmer more everybody can stay,
the better outcomes in almost all situations, right? Absolutely.
The other thing that I think is important for us as birth photographers is...
To kind of push back and to fight back when we do see obstetrical violence.
(19:48):
So I would always say, like, if you see something and you're not able to stop it,
then document it because photos or video of a clear violation of consent needs
to be taken and it needs to be shared with the higher powers of whatever hospital or birth location.
That is often way more powerful and way more damning than a testimonial.
(20:12):
That's unfortunate, but that's the reality of the world that we live in.
So I would say, don't be afraid to document it.
And I actually think, and I actually strongly think that a lot of my clients
are often better protected by having a birth photographer in the space.
Again, I don't, I wish this wasn't the reality, but it is the reality.
I do think that providers sometimes act differently when they know that there's
(20:35):
somebody in the room with a a professional camera that can and is documenting
what is happening, right?
Yes, absolutely. And I've also, taking a different spin on it,
I've also had providers come back to me after the fact and say,
hey, that was a really crazy dystocia.
I noticed that you were taking photos the whole time. Like, am I able to see
(20:57):
those so I can process this for myself?
And so we can, you know, better learn and make sure that we are,
you know, doing the right thing for our clients and the right thing to do,
you know, in those moments.
And I always respect that and appreciate that when providers reach out for that
reason. I love, I love that too.
I've had that happen many times and it's really interesting and it makes sense
(21:19):
when they're watching, like, especially if it's a video, if when they're watching
that, because you can see that they're not only examining like the techniques that they're using,
but they're also paying attention to the way that they're acting and the way
that they're interacting with everybody in the realm.
And I think when we're in emergency situations, we're.
(21:40):
We often forget, like maybe we have like a harsher tone or maybe we just forget
that part and we get so focused on saving somebody, which of course is the number one priority.
But I think it can be a really good tool and it can help providers learn like,
okay, maybe I could have stopped and explained things for a minute.
Or maybe I should have given, you know, 30 more seconds or whatever it might be.
(22:04):
I think it can be a really powerful learning tool. And so you're right.
It doesn't have to be like, I'm the birth photographer and I'm fighting up against
obstetrical violence. It can be like a way of partnering.
Like, hey, that was really stressful. If you want to watch this,
I'm happy to sit down and watch it with you. We can go through it together.
And people can walk away with, I think, not only an understanding,
(22:27):
but also some skills that they can improve on, which is always something that
I think most medical providers have such good hearts and they want to be the
best providers they can be.
And so this is a really awesome opportunity for them to reflect on what happened
and what they could do differently next time. Yeah, no, I completely agree.
(22:47):
And another thought, and as you're talking about that, I was thinking about
one of our really like one of our essence of birth courses that we did years and years ago in person.
And we had Aubrey, one of the midwives, Aubrey Tompkins, Tompkins?
I said that right? And she talked about having photos as a way,
(23:08):
she talked about not being worried that a photographer was going to take a picture
of her doing something wrong because she felt confident in her skills.
And she also felt like having the photographer there was actually.
Yes, that's so true.
(23:38):
And the midwife was doing a great job. It was a hairy situation.
If we had film of that, I think it would have showed how good she really did in the moment.
But instead, you know, we're taking that away.
We're still allowing these still photos, but still photos can be interpreted
in different ways where film cannot.
(23:59):
I mean, you're filming what's happening. So, you know, I just I think that I've
always thought about that. I mean, Aubrey said that, you know,
2016, you know, almost eight years ago.
And that is something I think about almost every time I step into the birth
space for a provider, you know.
So I just I wanted to say that just because I think like as providers may be
(24:23):
thinking about this in a different way, not as this can be used against you,
but rather this can be used to benefit you.
Yeah, absolutely. And to protect you in so many different ways. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, ultimately, at the end of the day, I think we all agree that we want
every person that we work with to walk away with an intact birth experience
(24:46):
to feel like they were seen and understood and that they felt like that they
were the key player of their birth.
And there's something about when you're able to document it,
when you're able to sit down after the fact and process it with maybe it's with
the birth photographer, maybe it's with a trusted friend,
(25:06):
maybe it's with your provider that can really help or your therapist even that
can really help untangle some of the feelings of trauma that you might have
deep down inside your body that you can't fully articulate as to why.
Why? Like, why do I feel this way?
Sometimes having those photos or having the video can really help unpack those
(25:29):
layers that often happen at birth, right?
Yeah, yeah, it is. And I even as I would like to say, even as a birth photographer,
like when do you make the decision to stop shooting? Yeah, that's a great question.
Yeah, for me, I would say there's, you know, there's nuances every single time,
(25:49):
but I have been asked more, did you get that on photo or film?
And there were times when I set my camera down thinking like,
oh, this isn't appropriate.
And then later the client asked. So it's such a double-edged sword and it's hard to just really,
you know, straddle that line because you don't want to make a provider uncomfortable,
(26:10):
comfortable, but you also want to document this for your client because they
might need to look at it later.
You can always not give them the photo, but you can never retake it. Right.
It's really challenging. And I think it comes back to, it's important.
Like it's, it's a reason why it's often worth investing in a birth photographer
that has a lot of experience because I, at this point can usually tell if we're in like.
(26:38):
An emergency, but in an emergency that's resolving relatively smoothly versus
like, we're in an emergency and things are kind of going from bad to worse.
And I feel pretty confident in my ability to do that.
And so I'm always paying attention to my client, obviously, but then also the
providers in the room and how they are responding and reacting to what's happening.
(26:59):
If they seem very stressed, very frazzled,
and like things are spiraling for them, I will often put my camera down only
because sometimes having a camera going off or knowing that someone's recording
can take somebody that's already struggling and make them like not function well at all.
And when I feel like somebody's life is in danger, then obviously that is going
(27:24):
to come before anything else.
All that being said, if you do birth work, you're going to be faced with a lot
of situations that might seem emergent that, yeah, they're emergent,
but they're common and they are able to be handled.
Like a hemorrhage, usually even a bad hemorrhage can be resolved with, you know, a few steps.
(27:45):
And if things are getting catastrophically worse, that doesn't happen very often.
But a hemorrhage happens fairly, you know, I would say it's a more common thing that you might see.
And so being able to differentiate between like emergent and like scary emergency is important.
And it's a skill you have to develop over time.
(28:07):
So I always say, pay attention to the provider.
They will also tell you, like I've had people say, I need you to stop documenting.
And at that point, like I will stop because they're usually telling me because
something they just can't focus.
And I ultimately at the end of the day, of course, I want them to be able to
do their job when we're in an emergency situation.
Situation. Absolutely. Yeah. But most of the, I mean, most of the providers
(28:29):
that I work with, it's similar to Aubrey.
They would prefer me to document because it helps them process. It helps them reflect.
It helps them learn what they could or couldn't have done.
So I would say the vast majority of the time I am not ever asked or even,
it doesn't even seem to be bothering whoever is doing what they need to be doing.
So. Yeah. And I feel like at some point you get to know those providers.
(28:52):
And yes, I mean, I have a relationship there. And there's a level of trust where absolutely,
you know, you're not going to go home and post something on TikTok without any
context or any sort of protections around your client and or the people that
were in the, you know, in the birth space with them. So, yeah.
And most of those midwives, you know, again, they're those are the same people
that are going to come back later and say, can I see that?
(29:15):
Can I, what could I have done better? Or let me just look at that so I can have
those timestamps exactly or whatever it is. So absolutely.
So then I think we also kind of going back to the clients, you know,
if you are at a birth that you think is traumatic.
Or you have received feedback that it was traumatic from your client,
(29:37):
you want to be really sensitive with how you handle those images,
how you talk about their birth.
You want to be really careful about posting anything on social media because
it could be incredibly triggering to them.
Especially in our world today where you post something on social media and you
might get comments, like ill-intentioned, uninformed comments from random people.
(30:01):
So if your client is experiencing trauma, you just want to handle their birth
and their story with extra love and attention and care.
Not that you don't do that for all of your clients, but I think that there has
to be this extra level when you know your clients experience trauma.
You might have to wait. Like you may not want to give their images right away.
You might want to ask them, hey, I have your birth images ready.
(30:23):
Do you want to see them so that they are able to tell me, yes,
I'm ready or no, I'm not ready.
I've had clients look at their birth images like with their therapist because
they just felt like they needed to have like a safe space to open that email for the first time.
So you want to ask questions like that and make sure that you are just paying
(30:44):
extra attention to how they're how they're doing.
Yeah. And I do it the same way. I will generally deliver the photos,
but then say like, you know, this is the link and this is the password and you
can open that whenever you are are ready, they're there for you.
You know, just in case like at that midnight breastfeeding where they're just
like, okay, I want to look at the photos right now. They at least have them.
(31:06):
I've had clients say that to me, or I've gotten the email or something in the middle of the night.
Like I finally had the courage to look at my birth photos and wow,
like that was different than I expected or whatever.
So like to have them when, and to be able to open them whenever WIM,
you know, comes up for them. Absolutely.
Yeah. And I mean, like I said, it's not a matter of if your client will have
(31:29):
a traumatic birth, it's when.
And I think it's important to remember at the end of the day that like what's
traumatic to you may not be traumatic to them and vice versa.
And so, you know, birth is such a complex physical, emotional,
spiritual process and And trauma can exist in all those different spheres.
(31:51):
And what might be like, you might see something on the surface and think like,
okay, this seemed like it was a really normal birth, but there could be layers
there that you're just not aware about.
And so it's really important to communicate with your clients,
listen to them, let them lead, let them tell you about their birth versus you
telling them what your experience was of their birth. I think that's really important.
(32:15):
Yes. So important. especially if you're going back to process with them.
Yes, exactly. You need to let them lead those conversations.
Yes. And I think we'll probably have to talk on another episode,
Jen, about what you should do if you...
Feel traumatized by a birth, because that's kind of a whole different conversation, right?
Yeah, that's a whole different. And, you know, that's maybe that's part two
(32:37):
of this even is, you know, what to do when you feel trauma.
Because again, like, we can be triggered by a lot of different things.
And I think it's really important to have a practice set up for yourself.
If you go into a birth and you walk away feeling really, really traumatized
by what you saw or witnessed or experienced. it.
So again, it's not if it's when.
(32:59):
Yes, exactly. Yeah. And we've had a few really hard traumatic births ourselves this year.
So I think that probably hits really closely for both of us. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. But that's kind of wraps up our discussion today.
And we kind of want to talk about when would you go?
We should definitely, I think, talk about that. But in the context of maybe
(33:20):
when we went to births this weekend, because we had kind of two similar situations,
but very very different births and very different outcomes.
So maybe Jen, you can share your story first and then I'll share mine.
I had two clients that were in labor on and off all weekend,
and I kind of was just waiting to see how this was all going to unfold.
(33:41):
One of those clients had bloody show and then contractions 20 minutes apart
down to as close as 10 minutes apart all day on Saturday, day, the entire day.
And things slowed down in the evening. And at about nine o'clock,
she said, things have kind of slowed down.
(34:02):
A couple of contractions have picked up in intensity, but really not very intense
at all. I'm going to lay down and rest.
So I was like, okay, great. And I'm going to lay down and rest too.
And I went to bed immediately when she said that.
And an hour and a half later, she called and said she was going to the hospital
because she didn't want to be at home
(34:23):
anymore and things had picked up in intensity and she asked me to come.
So I left because she asked me to come, but I didn't even really hear how close
together the contractions were.
And I texted her as I was leaving to let her know my ETA.
And I was like, by the way, how far apart are contractions? The last time I
(34:43):
heard they were 20 minutes.
And she was like, oh, they're three minutes apart now. And I was like, oh, okay.
So we're in it. So I got to the hospital and her Her water broke right when
I got there, and she had a baby an hour and a half later.
So it was really fast from that point on. And she was admitted into the hospital
at five to six centimeters.
(35:04):
So it was just a really, it was a long birth in the sense that she was contracting
all day and I was waiting all day.
I was texting with Monet and just wondering, like, hey, when do you think I'm going to go?
Is this going to happen today? And it did eventually.
Yeah. People don't realize that it's like, it's not just the,
like when you go, it's like often the hours before kind of similarly,
(35:25):
like my client texted me that her water had broke.
And so I knew that I was going to be going to a birth.
I didn't know when though they were, she was having contractions,
but they weren't particularly strong yet.
And she was giving birth at a hospital. It was a third baby.
And so, you know, oftentimes when water breaks like during labor,
(35:47):
especially for a MOLTEP, things can accelerate really quickly.
But when it breaks at the beginning of labor for a MOLTEP, sometimes it can
take some time for things to get going. And that's kind of exactly what happened.
And so we were texting throughout the night as she was getting checked into
the hospital, she ended up getting an epidural.
And so that kind of changes things usually for me, like from a documentation
(36:09):
point, because usually when we're getting an epidural, the main goal is to rest, right?
And you can definitely take some pictures, but it's not the same as like,
if someone is unmedicated, and they're moving around, and they're up and they're
awake, I really try to prioritize my clients rest when at all possible. So.
Normally with a multipe, I would go around five to six centimeters,
(36:32):
but she got the epidural and she told me she was like five to six centimeters,
but she said she wanted to try to rest and to maybe check in a few hours later when she got closer.
So I got a text that she was seven to eight centimeters.
I was like, oh my gosh, I got to hurry. So I like gathered my stuff,
ran out of the house, drove to the hospital, kind of anticipating we're going
(36:54):
to have a baby soon because it was like, she had gone from like five, one hour.
And then like an hour later, she was like eight centimeters.
Right. So she had made this big change and we got to the hospital and then things,
I went to, they slowed down, but like, you know, we were kind of anticipating
like, we'll have a baby within an hour and she got checked again and she was
still eight centimeters and got checked again and was still around eight centimeters.
(37:18):
And so at that point, you know, she was only a photography client,
but I kind of put my doula hat on and I had heard about her last birth.
She'd gotten stuck at eight centimeters previously at her last birth.
And so I was like, huh, this is interesting.
I wonder if there's something about like the way that her pelvis is.
And so I put her in flying cowgirl on either side, because I thought maybe that
(37:38):
would like open up her pelvis.
And it worked. She did that on each side for 30 minutes.
And then they I checked her again and she was complete and she pushed out a baby. So it was fun.
And I was like, I'm really like, if you don't want to listen to my advice,
just tell me I will shut up.
But they were both really grateful because she was like, I don't want to be
stuck at eight centimeters for 12 hours.
(37:59):
Like they almost took her to a C-section for her last birth because she'd gotten
stuck and they couldn't get that anterior lip to go away.
So it was, again, I don't know if it was flying cow girl, but I do think that
it likely helped because we saw a lot of change once we finally did that.
So it was cool. It was a great birth.
Oh, that's so great. But again, it was like the baby happens,
you know, but I was really like kind of working from the moment that she first
(38:24):
texted me and said that her water had broke, right?
Like there was this level of like monitoring my phone, making sure my bags are packed, like.
Being ready really at any minute to get out of my bed, run to the car and get
to the hospital. It's work. It's that work.
Yeah. It's a whole work. Yeah. And it's exhausting. You know,
I mean, I'm sure even like after your birth, you weren't there for very long,
(38:46):
but I'm sure you were exhausted just from the fact of being that aware and on call that whole period.
Absolutely. I mean, we, you know, texted for a solid 20 hours before I even went to the birth.
So yeah the easiest the easiest births
for me are like when somebody texts me like hey
I'm in labor you should come now and I
(39:06):
like get my stuff get in the car we have
a baby are my favorite yeah I especially when they're
in the middle of the night yeah so it's like you just it just wakes you up and
you're just going and there's no like decision making right I love that yeah
it's the it's the waiting that you know that is it's that's work I mean we my
family wanted to go do some things on Saturday and we really weren't able to as a family.
(39:30):
Like I had to stay behind or bring my stuff or drive two cars because you never
know when things are going to switch.
My client was also a multi and a third baby.
And you just never know when that's going to change.
So this job is always keeping us on our toes. Yes, for sure.
For sure. But it was fun. We both had births within like, I don't know,
(39:51):
like 12 hours of each other.
Yeah, it was cool. It was. All right. Well, thanks everybody for tuning in.
As always, you can find more information at www.birthbecomesyou.com.
We have courses and contracts and presets and all sorts of resources for birth photographers.
So we'd love for you to explore.
(40:13):
And yeah, can't wait to see you, or not see you, but talk to you next week.
Thank you so much for being here. Bye.
Thanks for tuning in. Find out more about us, our courses, and other tools for
birth photography at birthbecomesyou.com.
And make sure to follow along on Instagram and Facebook at birthbecomesyou.
(40:34):
And if you love listening, make sure to give us five stars on Apple Podcasts
and subscribe wherever you listen.
Thanks, catch you on the flip side.
Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us here at the Birth Becomes You podcast.
We took a couple of weeks off, and we are so glad to be back here with all of
you talking about birth photography and birth work and all the complexities of what we do.
Today, we're going to be talking about what happens when a birth becomes traumatic.
(00:21):
And this is obviously a really important conversation.
It's a hard conversation, but it's something that Jen and I talk about all the
time. Jen, how are you? It's good to see your face after a busy weekend.
I'm good. I had two clients in
labor all weekend, so it was just a little stressful, but otherwise good.
And I only ended up going to one of the births. So the other person is still
(00:45):
pregnant and there was no stress needed, even though there was stress at some
point. Right. It's often how that happens. Yeah.
It's often how it happens. I had three births over Over the last week,
I got mastitis in the middle of two of the births. So I feel like I am finally coming up for air.
But they were all like really beautiful, like relatively straightforward births.
(01:09):
So I'm grateful for that.
But it feels good to like get back to my computer and my desk and try to get organized.
Because as you know, like when births happen, everything just gets,
yeah, scrambled and shuffled around.
So yeah, trying to get back on to the same things.
Yeah. You're just gone for like
a day, just trying to like recover and process. So I get it. Absolutely.
(01:31):
Well, thank you again for being here, everybody. And we are super excited to dive in with you today.
Hi, it's Monet and Jen, and we are the co-founders of Birth Becomes You.
We are birth photographers and doulas with over 10 years of experience.
We've attended over 1,000 births collectively.
We started Birth Becomes You to create a safe space for new and experienced
(01:55):
birth photographers to share and grow.
We aim to equip and empower birth workers to feel confident in the birth space
and take beautiful, world-changing images.
We believe in a world where birth is visible, where shame is absent,
where fear is translated to power, and where each individual's experience is
honored as valid and valued.
We are so glad you're here and we can't wait to learn and connect with you.
(02:21):
So when we photograph births and when we attend births, we are hoping that they
are going to be beautiful, peaceful, and a joyful experience for our families.
But we can never guarantee that.
And so today we want to talk about what happens when you attend a birth as a
birth photographer or even as a doula, and that birth ends up becoming traumatic to your client.
(02:45):
It's a hard topic to talk about, but it's something that's really important
and guarantee you if you do this work long enough, you will encounter this.
There is a really like wide definition of what institutes birth trauma, right, Jen?
I think we both probably have examples where we thought like,
(03:06):
oh, this birth went really beautifully.
It was fast and quick and peaceful or from the outside side perspective,
the birth looked like incredible.
And then we find out maybe from our client, maybe from the midwife,
that actually it was a deeply traumatic situation, right? That definitely happens.
We also have births where things just go completely haywire.
(03:31):
And I'm thinking, oh my God, this is like crazy.
I would be so traumatized if this was me. And your client's 100% fine, right?
So I think the first thing that we want to really highlight is that you don't
like as the birth worker, you don't get to define what is traumatic to somebody else, right?
So if you attend a birth, and you think it's like peachy keen,
(03:54):
and everything went great, you don't want to assume that like you really need
to always let your client lead when talking about their birth experience.
Would you add anything to that, Jen, or does that sound? No,
I think that's like spot on, really.
Yeah. And we've all been to those births where, just like you said,
(04:15):
like it doesn't seem traumatic from the outside, but maybe it really is.
Like people internalize a lot of things and you don't know what is going through
somebody's head when they're in the middle of labor and in the middle of contractions.
And some people have a really hard time vocalizing that in the moment. Right.
So there's, I think it would probably be helpful to talk about,
and this is, again, this is like an informal list.
(04:37):
Jen and I are not, we're not therapists. Like we don't specialize in trauma.
This is just things that we've experienced as birth workers.
But I would say it'd probably be good to share a few things that might cause
trauma for your client, right?
I think sometimes when a birth happens really quickly, that can be traumatic.
When a client is anticipating 10 hours or six hours, and suddenly they're having
(05:02):
their baby almost precipitously, maybe in a birth location they weren't planning, that can be traumatic.
I also think, obviously, anything around obstetrical violence, right?
So anytime a provider doesn't provide true consent, anytime a provider doesn't
(05:23):
explain what's happening, anytime a provider violates somebody's wishes, desires,
words, all of those obviously can cause immense trauma. They've done a lot of studies.
And they've actually shown that when it comes to trauma, a lot of it isn't necessarily
the events that happen, right?
(05:46):
It's not like, oh my goodness, a shoulder dystocia or oh my goodness, a hemorrhage.
But a lot of times the trauma comes from the way that the care team is interacting
with the client or patient.
And so that is a big one. And it could be something as big as like a doctor
having an episiotomy without consent.
(06:08):
It could be something that you might think that doesn't seem like a huge deal
to me, but it is a huge deal to them because of their background,
their experience, their values.
Use, there's really a wide range of obstetrical violence.
And, you know, you might be surprised at something that you might not have even
(06:28):
thought about as being, you know, traumatic, ending up being very traumatic for your clients.
So I think that's important to consider.
And then other, I think, traumatic situations are just emergencies that happen in birth, right?
Like like a shoulder dystocia, a hemorrhage.
What are some other big, like I've had several clients lately that have had
(06:52):
babies with really big D-cells with contractions.
It hasn't resulted in any kind of like emergency C-section.
They all had vaginal births, but they had to hear their baby's heartbeat D-cell
into the 70s with almost every contraction, which could be traumatic to some people, right?
And then everybody rushing into the room to like manage that as well.
(07:14):
I feel like that is traumatic in and of itself to people.
If your baby comes out and needs a resuscitation, that can be traumatic, right?
And again, as birth workers, I've seen probably dozens, if not a hundred,
neonatal resuscitations.
And so when I see that happening, most of the time, I'm not panicked at all
(07:36):
because I know, okay, baby just needs a few breaths.
This is going to resolve quickly. This is going to resolve easily.
They've got a great team. But you have to remember for your clients,
this is probably their first time ever seeing anything.
And it's really scary when your baby comes out and needs immediate care.
And so again, like if you can walk away with anything from this conversation,
(07:58):
it's that what seems traumatic to you may not be what is traumatic to your clients.
So you really have to turn on that intuition and you have to really turn on
like, I'm going to listen and observe and watch my client and see how they're
reacting and not just lead with this is what I would personally feel if I was in that situation.
(08:19):
Are there any other things that I'm missing, Jen, in terms of things that can
cause, oh, I have a great one. Yeah.
What if, you know, I think this actually happens a lot more than we realize,
but maybe the birth was like, maybe it went fairly like smoothly.
There was no complication. You had a great provider, but maybe it just went
(08:40):
differently than you expected. Right.
I remember with my second baby with Eliza, I really wanted a water birth.
Like that was what I wanted with my birth. And for a variety of reasons,
I had to give birth on the bed.
And it was still like a beautiful birth. It was at a birth center.
It was four hours long. It was not complicated.
(09:02):
But I was really like, that was like a pain point for me.
I wouldn't, I maybe wouldn't use the word trauma, but it definitely made me
feel sad about my birth in a way that I wasn't anticipating.
And I'm sure like my friends and family would have never guessed that I was
having those thoughts. So that's something to consider, too,
is that if the birth goes differently than you plan, it can be traumatic,
(09:25):
too, right? Right. Yeah.
I would say that even about my birth. With my second, I had a VBAC.
And I remember one of my girlfriends saying to me, well, you know,
I'm so glad you got your VBAC.
You should feel happy that you got your VBAC. But I was feeling a little traumatized
because my VBAC was supposed to be at home.
And instead, we had to transfer to the hospital.
(09:48):
And so my perspective was, well, it wasn't really the birth that I had planned.
And I felt a little like upset about that. But from her perspective,
she had two C-sections and wished she could have had a VBAC.
You know, it really does come down to perspective.
It does. And I think, yeah. And we've had, I've had some really like kind of,
(10:09):
I don't want to say weird, I guess that's the wrong word, but just like kind
of violating things that have been happening,
at least that we've been seeing and discussing here in Michigan. again.
We had some doulas recently bring to our attention in one of our doula groups
that an OB at a hospital that we all really like broke a client's water without permission.
(10:32):
And they did it specifically because they didn't want to get wet from the water
breaking at an inconvenient time.
And they did it in front of the client. They kind of whispered about it with
the resident incident and made it feel kind of secretive and then acted like it was a mistake.
And that client is still, I mean, the baby is six months old and that client
(10:54):
is still working through the trauma of being like violated in that way when she wasn't asked.
We really have to, you know, as birth photographers, we are documenting these things too.
So how do you manage that when you're documenting and you've documented something that.
You know, that's really awful like that? What would you, what do you do?
(11:15):
How do you handle that? Do you give those photos to your clients?
Do you hold on to them? Do you put them in a separate folder?
What's your thought process on that? For me, I guess it's just different for every client, but.
Yeah, I was going to say that. I mean, it's not a black and white response, right?
I can't say this is what you should or should do because each of these situations are so unique.
(11:36):
And sometimes, again, you're not even clued in to what was traumatic or not.
I think I try to remind myself that my job as a birth photographer is to document
the real experience, how it happens.
Right. And I try to not let my own feelings or opinions about what's happening
(11:57):
dictate the way that I capture the birth.
Because as we've already talked about, what may be traumatic for me may not
be traumatic for my client and vice versa.
And so I feel like if I spend too much time trying to figure out like,
should I be documenting this? Should I not? Should I be giving these images? Should I not?
That I'm going to end up inevitably like not making the perfect right call because
(12:20):
I just don't have access to my client's inner psyche, right? Right.
But when I'm in the space, my job and my goal is to document, document, document.
And then sometimes after the fact, like if it's very obvious that it was a traumatic
birth, then we might have a conversation.
Like I might ask my client, hey, I took all these images.
(12:43):
How are you feeling? Are you ready to see them?
Do you want me to put a certain section in a certain folder and then kind of go from there?
Is that kind of what you do, too, as well, Jen? Yes, I do.
And I have just started doing more of the separate folder because I just want
people to realize what they're going to look at before they see it. Yeah.
(13:05):
And maybe that's just because I've had some more sensitive births lately.
I'm not sure, but I've been doing that a lot more. Yeah.
I can see when clients click on things and often they're not clicking on that folder.
So I think it's probably a good thing to be able to sort your images in that
way when you feel like it's necessary a little bit too.
Absolutely. So I think that for a lot of our clients, we serve both as doula
(13:31):
and birth photographer, but there's still many people that hire us every month
that are just hiring us for birth photography.
I do find, though, if a birth becomes traumatic and I'm talking about like obviously traumatic,
I do find that I end up putting on that doula support role more because oftentimes,
(13:52):
especially if there isn't a doula,
oftentimes I am the one person in the room that can kind of provide that emotional
support and even just explanation about what is happening.
Happening especially if the care providers are busy
attending to an emergency right
so oftentimes I will continue to
(14:15):
document but I will also step in
and just reassure parents kind of talk to
them make sure they understand what's going on and
put on that doula hat more than I would for another birth I think it's important
to be able and willing to step into that role I always tell people that it's
(14:37):
an honor to be invited into somebody's birth space. And I don't take that honor lightly.
And, you know, I may not be your doula, but I am absolutely going to step in
as your friend and someone that you feel safe and you trust.
And if there is an emergency, I think that's the perfect time to do that. Got. Yeah.
(14:58):
And oftentimes at the hospital, especially at the hospital, you are the only
person that's ever really talked to this client patient before.
I mean, they might have an OB in the room or a midwife in the room that they've
never met. They've probably never met their nurses.
Right. So you do have some sort of relationship with them.
And I think that lends itself really well to be able to give some explanation in that time.
(15:22):
I had a birth just the other night that it wasn't a shoulder dystocia,
but it was just like a little sticky at the end.
The baby just had, you know, took an extra second to come out and the midwife
needed the mom to move into some different positions at the end.
And it really scared the dad and he had to like step away and back,
(15:43):
you know, way out of the space.
And I was able to like still documenting, still filming, still shooting,
you know, turn to him and say, it's okay.
Like they're just maneuvering so that The shoulders can come unstuck.
Everything's fine. The baby's fine. Baby's going to be OK. And the baby was fine. It wasn't.
It really wasn't very long in the whole scheme of birth, but to him,
(16:04):
it was scary seeing the head out and seeing like the midwife kind of pull on the head.
But I wouldn't say it was a true emergent situation, but that didn't matter. It was traumatic to him.
Then his reaction kind of spurred his mother-in-law's reaction.
She was also there. Then she got really scared and they were really nervous for a few minutes.
(16:25):
And I was able to at least, or maybe not minutes, seconds.
And I was able to at least say, you know, everything's fine.
This is all fine. It's all normal.
And the baby was out seconds later. The midwife said the same thing. It's okay. It's okay.
But it did get hairy for a second. And, you know, all the staff in the room rushed to help.
But she's going to be able to look back and see those photos and see what I
(16:48):
documented because she was scared for a minute too until the midwife explained it later.
And she immediately said to me, Oh, well, I can't wait to see the photos.
I can't wait to really see how that turned out.
So, I mean, having these photos as a tool to process all of these situations,
I think, is also just really important and really powerful to be able to see,
(17:09):
no, you handled the situation. You reacted.
This is how it unfolded. And I think people envision that they maybe are doing
something different sometimes than what they really are.
And having those photos is really validating, I think.
It was definitely for my own birth. Yes.
Yes. I think that we hear from so many clients, from midwives,
(17:34):
from other providers, that birth images can really be such an important tool
for processing, especially if a birth is scary or traumatic.
Because honestly, that like.
Fight or flight activation happens and you
can forget a lot about what's happening you can
feel like you're having an out-of-body experience and you come back into your
(17:58):
body and maybe someone can explain what happened but i think a lot of people
still feel this like sense of like disassociation like whoa like what just happened
and having those birth photos be it like two weeks from now,
a month from now, six weeks from now, they can sit down.
And I have clients that will sometimes sit down with their midwife or their
(18:19):
OB even, and go through the photos and explain.
Because again, for you and me, like we, we know what's happening when a shoulder
dystocia is going on, right?
Like we've seen enough, we've read enough, we know enough that we understand
it. But like for your client and your client's husband, no idea, very little context.
(18:40):
And the midwife at that point in time is focused completely on getting the baby out.
They're not like worried about the well, like the mental well-being of anybody
at that point. They're just trying to do their job.
And so it can be really scary when you're in that moment and you don't know
and you don't understand.
And so, again, if you can be that person in the room that looks at,
(19:04):
you know, we talk about this with kids.
If kids can see that your face is calm and that you aren't freaking out during
birth, their nervous system quiets down.
And I find the same thing with adults, right? If my clients look at me and I'm
looking at them and I'm telling them they're okay, they have a great team,
they're working on it, it's going to be okay, that can really help lower their
(19:27):
nervous system, which is better for everybody.
If there's an emergency, the calmer more everybody can stay,
the better outcomes in almost all situations, right? Absolutely.
The other thing that I think is important for us as birth photographers is...
To kind of push back and to fight back when we do see obstetrical violence.
(19:48):
So I would always say, like, if you see something and you're not able to stop it,
then document it because photos or video of a clear violation of consent needs
to be taken and it needs to be shared with the higher powers of whatever hospital or birth location.
That is often way more powerful and way more damning than a testimonial.
(20:12):
That's unfortunate, but that's the reality of the world that we live in.
So I would say, don't be afraid to document it.
And I actually think, and I actually strongly think that a lot of my clients
are often better protected by having a birth photographer in the space.
Again, I don't, I wish this wasn't the reality, but it is the reality.
I do think that providers sometimes act differently when they know that there's
(20:35):
somebody in the room with a a professional camera that can and is documenting
what is happening, right?
Yes, absolutely. And I've also, taking a different spin on it,
I've also had providers come back to me after the fact and say,
hey, that was a really crazy dystocia.
I noticed that you were taking photos the whole time. Like, am I able to see
(20:57):
those so I can process this for myself?
And so we can, you know, better learn and make sure that we are,
you know, doing the right thing for our clients and the right thing to do,
you know, in those moments.
And I always respect that and appreciate that when providers reach out for that
reason. I love, I love that too.
I've had that happen many times and it's really interesting and it makes sense
(21:19):
when they're watching, like, especially if it's a video, if when they're watching
that, because you can see that they're not only examining like the techniques that they're using,
but they're also paying attention to the way that they're acting and the way
that they're interacting with everybody in the realm.
And I think when we're in emergency situations, we're.
(21:40):
We often forget, like maybe we have like a harsher tone or maybe we just forget
that part and we get so focused on saving somebody, which of course is the number one priority.
But I think it can be a really good tool and it can help providers learn like,
okay, maybe I could have stopped and explained things for a minute.
Or maybe I should have given, you know, 30 more seconds or whatever it might be.
(22:04):
I think it can be a really powerful learning tool. And so you're right.
It doesn't have to be like, I'm the birth photographer and I'm fighting up against
obstetrical violence. It can be like a way of partnering.
Like, hey, that was really stressful. If you want to watch this,
I'm happy to sit down and watch it with you. We can go through it together.
And people can walk away with, I think, not only an understanding,
(22:27):
but also some skills that they can improve on, which is always something that
I think most medical providers have such good hearts and they want to be the
best providers they can be.
And so this is a really awesome opportunity for them to reflect on what happened
and what they could do differently next time. Yeah, no, I completely agree.
(22:47):
And another thought, and as you're talking about that, I was thinking about
one of our really like one of our essence of birth courses that we did years and years ago in person.
And we had Aubrey, one of the midwives, Aubrey Tompkins, Tompkins?
I said that right? And she talked about having photos as a way,
(23:08):
she talked about not being worried that a photographer was going to take a picture
of her doing something wrong because she felt confident in her skills.
And she also felt like having the photographer there was actually.
Yes, that's so true.
(23:38):
And the midwife was doing a great job. It was a hairy situation.
If we had film of that, I think it would have showed how good she really did in the moment.
But instead, you know, we're taking that away.
We're still allowing these still photos, but still photos can be interpreted
in different ways where film cannot.
(23:59):
I mean, you're filming what's happening. So, you know, I just I think that I've
always thought about that. I mean, Aubrey said that, you know,
2016, you know, almost eight years ago.
And that is something I think about almost every time I step into the birth
space for a provider, you know.
So I just I wanted to say that just because I think like as providers may be
(24:23):
thinking about this in a different way, not as this can be used against you,
but rather this can be used to benefit you.
Yeah, absolutely. And to protect you in so many different ways. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, ultimately, at the end of the day, I think we all agree that we want
every person that we work with to walk away with an intact birth experience
(24:46):
to feel like they were seen and understood and that they felt like that they
were the key player of their birth.
And there's something about when you're able to document it,
when you're able to sit down after the fact and process it with maybe it's with
the birth photographer, maybe it's with a trusted friend,
(25:06):
maybe it's with your provider that can really help or your therapist even that
can really help untangle some of the feelings of trauma that you might have
deep down inside your body that you can't fully articulate as to why.
Why? Like, why do I feel this way?
Sometimes having those photos or having the video can really help unpack those
(25:29):
layers that often happen at birth, right?
Yeah, yeah, it is. And I even as I would like to say, even as a birth photographer,
like when do you make the decision to stop shooting? Yeah, that's a great question.
Yeah, for me, I would say there's, you know, there's nuances every single time,
(25:49):
but I have been asked more, did you get that on photo or film?
And there were times when I set my camera down thinking like,
oh, this isn't appropriate.
And then later the client asked. So it's such a double-edged sword and it's hard to just really,
you know, straddle that line because you don't want to make a provider uncomfortable,
(26:10):
comfortable, but you also want to document this for your client because they
might need to look at it later.
You can always not give them the photo, but you can never retake it. Right.
It's really challenging. And I think it comes back to, it's important.
Like it's, it's a reason why it's often worth investing in a birth photographer
that has a lot of experience because I, at this point can usually tell if we're in like.
(26:38):
An emergency, but in an emergency that's resolving relatively smoothly versus
like, we're in an emergency and things are kind of going from bad to worse.
And I feel pretty confident in my ability to do that.
And so I'm always paying attention to my client, obviously, but then also the
providers in the room and how they are responding and reacting to what's happening.
(26:59):
If they seem very stressed, very frazzled,
and like things are spiraling for them, I will often put my camera down only
because sometimes having a camera going off or knowing that someone's recording
can take somebody that's already struggling and make them like not function well at all.
And when I feel like somebody's life is in danger, then obviously that is going
(27:24):
to come before anything else.
All that being said, if you do birth work, you're going to be faced with a lot
of situations that might seem emergent that, yeah, they're emergent,
but they're common and they are able to be handled.
Like a hemorrhage, usually even a bad hemorrhage can be resolved with, you know, a few steps.
(27:45):
And if things are getting catastrophically worse, that doesn't happen very often.
But a hemorrhage happens fairly, you know, I would say it's a more common thing that you might see.
And so being able to differentiate between like emergent and like scary emergency is important.
And it's a skill you have to develop over time.
(28:07):
So I always say, pay attention to the provider.
They will also tell you, like I've had people say, I need you to stop documenting.
And at that point, like I will stop because they're usually telling me because
something they just can't focus.
And I ultimately at the end of the day, of course, I want them to be able to
do their job when we're in an emergency situation.
Situation. Absolutely. Yeah. But most of the, I mean, most of the providers
(28:29):
that I work with, it's similar to Aubrey.
They would prefer me to document because it helps them process. It helps them reflect.
It helps them learn what they could or couldn't have done.
So I would say the vast majority of the time I am not ever asked or even,
it doesn't even seem to be bothering whoever is doing what they need to be doing.
So. Yeah. And I feel like at some point you get to know those providers.
(28:52):
And yes, I mean, I have a relationship there. And there's a level of trust where absolutely,
you know, you're not going to go home and post something on TikTok without any
context or any sort of protections around your client and or the people that
were in the, you know, in the birth space with them. So, yeah.
And most of those midwives, you know, again, they're those are the same people
that are going to come back later and say, can I see that?
(29:15):
Can I, what could I have done better? Or let me just look at that so I can have
those timestamps exactly or whatever it is. So absolutely.
So then I think we also kind of going back to the clients, you know,
if you are at a birth that you think is traumatic.
Or you have received feedback that it was traumatic from your client,
(29:37):
you want to be really sensitive with how you handle those images,
how you talk about their birth.
You want to be really careful about posting anything on social media because
it could be incredibly triggering to them.
Especially in our world today where you post something on social media and you
might get comments, like ill-intentioned, uninformed comments from random people.
(30:01):
So if your client is experiencing trauma, you just want to handle their birth
and their story with extra love and attention and care.
Not that you don't do that for all of your clients, but I think that there has
to be this extra level when you know your clients experience trauma.
You might have to wait. Like you may not want to give their images right away.
You might want to ask them, hey, I have your birth images ready.
(30:23):
Do you want to see them so that they are able to tell me, yes,
I'm ready or no, I'm not ready.
I've had clients look at their birth images like with their therapist because
they just felt like they needed to have like a safe space to open that email for the first time.
So you want to ask questions like that and make sure that you are just paying
(30:44):
extra attention to how they're how they're doing.
Yeah. And I do it the same way. I will generally deliver the photos,
but then say like, you know, this is the link and this is the password and you
can open that whenever you are are ready, they're there for you.
You know, just in case like at that midnight breastfeeding where they're just
like, okay, I want to look at the photos right now. They at least have them.
(31:06):
I've had clients say that to me, or I've gotten the email or something in the middle of the night.
Like I finally had the courage to look at my birth photos and wow,
like that was different than I expected or whatever.
So like to have them when, and to be able to open them whenever WIM,
you know, comes up for them. Absolutely.
Yeah. And I mean, like I said, it's not a matter of if your client will have
(31:29):
a traumatic birth, it's when.
And I think it's important to remember at the end of the day that like what's
traumatic to you may not be traumatic to them and vice versa.
And so, you know, birth is such a complex physical, emotional,
spiritual process and And trauma can exist in all those different spheres.
(31:51):
And what might be like, you might see something on the surface and think like,
okay, this seemed like it was a really normal birth, but there could be layers
there that you're just not aware about.
And so it's really important to communicate with your clients,
listen to them, let them lead, let them tell you about their birth versus you
telling them what your experience was of their birth. I think that's really important.
(32:15):
Yes. So important. especially if you're going back to process with them.
Yes, exactly. You need to let them lead those conversations.
Yes. And I think we'll probably have to talk on another episode,
Jen, about what you should do if you...
Feel traumatized by a birth, because that's kind of a whole different conversation, right?
Yeah, that's a whole different. And, you know, that's maybe that's part two
(32:37):
of this even is, you know, what to do when you feel trauma.
Because again, like, we can be triggered by a lot of different things.
And I think it's really important to have a practice set up for yourself.
If you go into a birth and you walk away feeling really, really traumatized
by what you saw or witnessed or experienced. it.
So again, it's not if it's when.
(32:59):
Yes, exactly. Yeah. And we've had a few really hard traumatic births ourselves this year.
So I think that probably hits really closely for both of us. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. But that's kind of wraps up our discussion today.
And we kind of want to talk about when would you go?
We should definitely, I think, talk about that. But in the context of maybe
(33:20):
when we went to births this weekend, because we had kind of two similar situations,
but very very different births and very different outcomes.
So maybe Jen, you can share your story first and then I'll share mine.
I had two clients that were in labor on and off all weekend,
and I kind of was just waiting to see how this was all going to unfold.
(33:41):
One of those clients had bloody show and then contractions 20 minutes apart
down to as close as 10 minutes apart all day on Saturday, day, the entire day.
And things slowed down in the evening. And at about nine o'clock,
she said, things have kind of slowed down.
(34:02):
A couple of contractions have picked up in intensity, but really not very intense
at all. I'm going to lay down and rest.
So I was like, okay, great. And I'm going to lay down and rest too.
And I went to bed immediately when she said that.
And an hour and a half later, she called and said she was going to the hospital
because she didn't want to be at home
(34:23):
anymore and things had picked up in intensity and she asked me to come.
So I left because she asked me to come, but I didn't even really hear how close
together the contractions were.
And I texted her as I was leaving to let her know my ETA.
And I was like, by the way, how far apart are contractions? The last time I
(34:43):
heard they were 20 minutes.
And she was like, oh, they're three minutes apart now. And I was like, oh, okay.
So we're in it. So I got to the hospital and her Her water broke right when
I got there, and she had a baby an hour and a half later.
So it was really fast from that point on. And she was admitted into the hospital
at five to six centimeters.
(35:04):
So it was just a really, it was a long birth in the sense that she was contracting
all day and I was waiting all day.
I was texting with Monet and just wondering, like, hey, when do you think I'm going to go?
Is this going to happen today? And it did eventually.
Yeah. People don't realize that it's like, it's not just the,
like when you go, it's like often the hours before kind of similarly,
(35:25):
like my client texted me that her water had broke.
And so I knew that I was going to be going to a birth.
I didn't know when though they were, she was having contractions,
but they weren't particularly strong yet.
And she was giving birth at a hospital. It was a third baby.
And so, you know, oftentimes when water breaks like during labor,
(35:47):
especially for a MOLTEP, things can accelerate really quickly.
But when it breaks at the beginning of labor for a MOLTEP, sometimes it can
take some time for things to get going. And that's kind of exactly what happened.
And so we were texting throughout the night as she was getting checked into
the hospital, she ended up getting an epidural.
And so that kind of changes things usually for me, like from a documentation
(36:09):
point, because usually when we're getting an epidural, the main goal is to rest, right?
And you can definitely take some pictures, but it's not the same as like,
if someone is unmedicated, and they're moving around, and they're up and they're
awake, I really try to prioritize my clients rest when at all possible. So.
Normally with a multipe, I would go around five to six centimeters,
(36:32):
but she got the epidural and she told me she was like five to six centimeters,
but she said she wanted to try to rest and to maybe check in a few hours later when she got closer.
So I got a text that she was seven to eight centimeters.
I was like, oh my gosh, I got to hurry. So I like gathered my stuff,
ran out of the house, drove to the hospital, kind of anticipating we're going
(36:54):
to have a baby soon because it was like, she had gone from like five, one hour.
And then like an hour later, she was like eight centimeters.
Right. So she had made this big change and we got to the hospital and then things,
I went to, they slowed down, but like, you know, we were kind of anticipating
like, we'll have a baby within an hour and she got checked again and she was
still eight centimeters and got checked again and was still around eight centimeters.
(37:18):
And so at that point, you know, she was only a photography client,
but I kind of put my doula hat on and I had heard about her last birth.
She'd gotten stuck at eight centimeters previously at her last birth.
And so I was like, huh, this is interesting.
I wonder if there's something about like the way that her pelvis is.
And so I put her in flying cowgirl on either side, because I thought maybe that
(37:38):
would like open up her pelvis.
And it worked. She did that on each side for 30 minutes.
And then they I checked her again and she was complete and she pushed out a baby. So it was fun.
And I was like, I'm really like, if you don't want to listen to my advice,
just tell me I will shut up.
But they were both really grateful because she was like, I don't want to be
stuck at eight centimeters for 12 hours.
(37:59):
Like they almost took her to a C-section for her last birth because she'd gotten
stuck and they couldn't get that anterior lip to go away.
So it was, again, I don't know if it was flying cow girl, but I do think that
it likely helped because we saw a lot of change once we finally did that.
So it was cool. It was a great birth.
Oh, that's so great. But again, it was like the baby happens,
you know, but I was really like kind of working from the moment that she first
(38:24):
texted me and said that her water had broke, right?
Like there was this level of like monitoring my phone, making sure my bags are packed, like.
Being ready really at any minute to get out of my bed, run to the car and get
to the hospital. It's work. It's that work.
Yeah. It's a whole work. Yeah. And it's exhausting. You know,
I mean, I'm sure even like after your birth, you weren't there for very long,
(38:46):
but I'm sure you were exhausted just from the fact of being that aware and on call that whole period.
Absolutely. I mean, we, you know, texted for a solid 20 hours before I even went to the birth.
So yeah the easiest the easiest births
for me are like when somebody texts me like hey
I'm in labor you should come now and I
(39:06):
like get my stuff get in the car we have
a baby are my favorite yeah I especially when they're
in the middle of the night yeah so it's like you just it just wakes you up and
you're just going and there's no like decision making right I love that yeah
it's the it's the waiting that you know that is it's that's work I mean we my
family wanted to go do some things on Saturday and we really weren't able to as a family.
(39:30):
Like I had to stay behind or bring my stuff or drive two cars because you never
know when things are going to switch.
My client was also a multi and a third baby.
And you just never know when that's going to change.
So this job is always keeping us on our toes. Yes, for sure.
For sure. But it was fun. We both had births within like, I don't know,
(39:51):
like 12 hours of each other.
Yeah, it was cool. It was. All right. Well, thanks everybody for tuning in.
As always, you can find more information at www.birthbecomesyou.com.
We have courses and contracts and presets and all sorts of resources for birth photographers.
So we'd love for you to explore.
(40:13):
And yeah, can't wait to see you, or not see you, but talk to you next week.
Thank you so much for being here. Bye.
Thanks for tuning in. Find out more about us, our courses, and other tools for
birth photography at birthbecomesyou.com.
And make sure to follow along on Instagram and Facebook at birthbecomesyou.
(40:34):
And if you love listening, make sure to give us five stars on Apple Podcasts
and subscribe wherever you listen.
Thanks, catch you on the flip side.
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