July 16, 2024 • 43 mins
It's been a wild week between attending multiple births and even squeezing in a family wedding, it's been a whirlwind! But we’re finally catching up on sleep and ready to dive into today’s topic.
Today, we're exploring the world of free birth. If you caught our last episode on Cesarean births, you’ll love this contrasting discussion. Free birth, also known as unassisted birth, is gaining traction, and we’re here to unpack it all for you. From the philosophy behind it to our personal experiences and tips for birth photographers, we cover it all.
We value your thoughts, so please reach out to us via email or social media. This conversation is a two-way street, and we can’t wait to hear from you!
Oh, and before we forget, we have a special treat for our loyal listeners. Enjoy 25% off any item in our shop with the code PODCAST25. Head over to birthbecomesyou.com to check out our toolkits, presets, mentoring options, and more.
Thanks for being here with us. Let's get into it!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, Jen. Hi, Monet. How are you? Good.
I've had a busy week. I've had, I think, two births, three births maybe.
Yeah, three clients this week. And so it's been a lot of birth activity.
And I finally got a good night of sleep last night. So I'm feeling much more
refreshed today. How are you?
(00:20):
I'm good. I'm about in the same position. I had two births over the weekend and a family wedding.
So I had a birth and then I went to this wedding and then I left and went to a birth.
So it was a lot. And I'm just finally feeling like I'm catching up on sleep
and just like feeling back to myself.
But of course, I still have three other clients that are potentially having their babies soon.
(00:45):
So, you know, that's how it goes. Yep, on our toes always.
We're hoping to sneak this recording in before my next client.
I have someone that's getting her membrane swept today, so I'm assuming that
I'll go to her birth sometime this afternoon or evening.
But yeah, we are super excited to be here today.
We're going to be talking about free birth, which I think will be an interesting
(01:09):
contrast to the discussion we had last week about cesarean birth.
So we are really grateful that you are here today and we can't wait to share our thoughts.
And as always, we'd love to hear your thoughts. So please reach out to us via
email or social media because we want this to be a two-way conversation. So let's get into it.
(01:31):
Hi, it's Monet and Jen, and we are the co-founders of Birth Becomes You.
We are birth photographers and doulas with over 10 years of experience.
We've attended over 1,000 births collectively We started Birth Becomes You to
create a safe space for new and experienced birth photographers to share and grow.
We aim to equip and empower birth workers to feel confident in the birth space
(01:54):
and take beautiful, world-changing images.
We believe in a world where birth is visible, where shame is absent,
where fear is translated to power, and where each individual's experience is
honored as valid and valued.
We are so glad you're here, and we can't wait to learn and connect with you.
(02:18):
We are so glad that you joined us for the debut of our podcast.
And to thank our first listeners, we are offering an exclusive promotion of
25% off any item in the shop through the end of July.
To redeem it, you can go to birthbecomesyou.com and click on the shop in our
(02:38):
menu and use promo code PODCAST25 at checkout. out.
That's promo code podcast25 when you check out.
We have tons of items in the shop that include toolkits and contracts for birth
photographers, toolkits for new birth photographers to teach you how to photograph
(03:01):
your own birth and step into the birth space for the very first time.
We also have presets. We have mentoring.
We have a whole host of things. So head on over to our shop at birthbecomesyou.com
and use code podcast25 at checkout. Thank you so much.
All right, let's go. Do you want to talk a little bit about like what a free birth is first?
(03:25):
I think that's probably the best. I think the definition is probably important.
And, you know, I think we could spend a lot of time, honestly,
going into the history of free birth and the way that it's looked throughout time.
This is not necessarily a new idea or a new concept.
People have been birthing by themselves for many, many years,
(03:49):
probably for hundreds and hundreds of years.
But I do think that in the last, I don't know, I would say five years,
we have seen a rapid increase in people who are deciding to free birth or to birth unassisted.
I think it was for a long time, pretty fringe, and you didn't hear about it very often.
(04:13):
And now in our Facebook group, we hear about free birth all the time.
I would say, you know, once a week, somebody's asking a question about free
birth and should I go to a free birth?
What does it mean for me as a birth photographer.
And so it's definitely something that people are choosing more and more.
And essentially, you're just giving birth usually with yourself and your partner, maybe.
(04:39):
Sometimes there is an additional support person, but they're not a trained medical birth attendant.
So you're not having a traditional midwife.
You may have a doula, but that doula is not technically doing anything that
would be clinical or medical.
They're just there as emotional support.
(05:01):
People that free birth really believe that they alone should be responsible
for their bodies. There's a lot of like.
Talk about sovereignty and bodily autonomy and that they alone should be making
decisions for themselves and their baby.
They acknowledge that there is some inherent risk in giving birth and there's
(05:24):
some inherent risk in giving birth at home,
but in their mind, that is much more preferable than the risks of going into
the hospital or hiring a traditional midwife or
a certified midwife that is answering to not only the client,
but also to the state, honestly,
(05:45):
or a regulatory board that determines what you can or can't do as a midwife.
So I think that's kind of a brief overview.
And like I said, it used to be something that I didn't hear about often at all.
And now I hear about it all the time.
And so it's definitely becoming a big issue you within the birth community,
(06:06):
and you'll hear people with all sorts of opinions about it.
You tell this to an OB or a labor and delivery nurse, and they will look at
you like it's the worst thing that they've ever heard of in their life.
You tell it to a certified midwife, and they also might be really upset about
it because, as you can imagine, sometimes these births don't go as planned.
(06:30):
And if they have to go into the hospital, some certified midwives worry that
that can actually negatively impact relationships with hospital providers,
just because so often hospital providers don't necessarily differentiate between,
you know, a birth with a trained midwife,
(06:50):
an unassisted birth, home birth is kind of just this one term that gets,
you know, placed on a lot of different types of births.
And so anyway, it's a very, I would say it's a controversial topic.
And I think people have a lot of different opinions and feelings about it.
And so we thought it would be good to talk about it because as birth photographers,
we're obviously not medical providers.
(07:13):
And many of us have been asked to attend free births, have attended free births,
or will be asked to attend free births.
So we wanted to just share some of our experiences and some things for you all
to consider if you are asked to attend a free birth, because you will be.
There's just, it's on what you will be.
(07:35):
I think we should at least start a little bit and talk about why we're seeing
more free births, because I do think that even though that's not specifically
the topic, like that is why all of this is on trend, right?
We're seeing less and less options. We're seeing options being taken away.
In a lot of areas. I know here locally, midwives and birth centers have been
(07:57):
closing and midwives are being pushed out of hospitals.
There was a really popular birth center here called the ABC Birth Center.
And it's where a lot of people went to have their babies. And now that birth center is closed.
You can only go to a hospital with an OB in that area.
And that's a big deal for people. It's a huge, like this is Southfield,
(08:18):
Michigan. This is just outside of Detroit. So this is a really big area.
And that's just speaking about one place in my area. We know we see this all over the country.
I mean, it's not it's not changing. It's it's only getting worse.
Like options are being taken away.
So, of course, people are going to come up with, you know, other options for themselves.
Right. Like if you don't want to give birth in the hospital with an OB and you
(08:42):
don't have another option, you know, a free birth starts to sound like a good
option to you. Yeah, absolutely.
And it's not even necessarily the lack of options in terms of there's not midwives
or there's not birth centers.
I think a lot of people are frustrated by some of the rules and regulations
(09:03):
that midwives have to follow. And it's important to know, at least in the United
States, that these regulations change state by state.
So something that is completely, quote unquote, legal for a home birth midwife
to do in Utah is illegal for a home birth midwife to do in Colorado.
(09:25):
And so you see situations in which, you know, there's state rules saying,
you know, you have to, if you want to give birth at home with a midwife,
the midwife needs to follow these rules.
And some of the rules, I think the rules by and large are trying to make sure
that the people staying at home are low risk, but there's always variations
(09:48):
of normal, right? Right.
And so I have had plenty of clients who reach 42 weeks and they are not in labor.
And here in Colorado, if you are a certified midwife in the state of Colorado,
you have to transfer care to a hospital provider.
Now, these people, nothing's wrong with them. Nothing's wrong with their baby.
(10:10):
Everyone is healthy. In all likelihood, they would go into labor probably sometime in that 42nd week.
But because of state law, that is not an option.
And so as you can imagine, if you've been planning a home birth your entire
pregnancy and you have been envisioning this intervention-free birth,
and then suddenly you get to 41 weeks, 41 and a half weeks, 42 weeks,
(10:33):
and your midwife comes to you and says, I'm sorry, my hands are tied.
We have to go to the hospital. You have to be induced.
I think that it's not unreasonable for people to say, I don't want to do that.
And right now, because of social media, because of podcasting and TikTok,
there's a wealth of discussion and dialogue about, hey, there's another option.
(10:57):
If you don't want to go into the hospital, you could just give birth at home.
You could do a free birth.
And there's, like I said, a lot of information about free birthing.
There's a lot of people that are really into free birthing and are huge advocates for it.
And so it can seem like this awesome option. It's like, okay,
well, I can still have my home birth. I have all the supplies.
(11:19):
I'm just going to do it myself. This is going to go well.
And I think the tricky thing about free birth is that it does go well.
It does go well. I think birth, when left undisturbed, birth goes well the vast majority of the time.
The problem is that there are times when it doesn't. And there are times when
the help of a trained and knowledgeable midwife or birth professional can make a huge difference.
(11:47):
And so that for me, as someone who always supports bodily autonomy,
and I always think people should be able to choose what they want to choose
for their births. I thought about having a free birth myself.
So I'm not saying that this is a bad choice for anybody, but I am saying that,
you know, in a lot of the chatter and talk that I see in the free birth community.
(12:13):
Sometimes there is a lack of acknowledgement of, of complications that can and do happen.
And, you know, there are some things that you can't, you know,
there's some situations that are just completely out of everybody's control,
that a midwife or an OB couldn't save or do anything to help.
But there are numerous situations or complications where that training can make
(12:37):
a difference and can save somebody's life.
And so sometimes I worry that people aren't necessarily understanding the full
risk of what they are entering into.
Also acknowledging that the vast majority of the time it goes super smoothly
and free birth can be a really uncomplicated option for lots of people and I
(13:01):
do think some of that risk.
Maybe isn't something that the birthing person knows of at the time.
Like you don't necessarily know if you're bleeding too much,
if you're just paying attention to your baby in that moment,
or you might not know necessarily if the baby's head is kind of out for a long
time because you're really in the moment and it's having somebody who's in the birth space.
(13:24):
Now it doesn't have to be a midwife necessarily, but just somebody who can say
this is what's happening and speaking that out loud. I do think that's important.
And I don't always see that in the free birth, like births that I've attended.
And I think that's an important piece to talk about.
Sometimes you're really tired in birth and sometimes you're just going by how
you're feeling in the moment and you're not really paying attention to the medical
(13:47):
aspects that are happening because there are some medical aspects that are happening
at every birth. Right. Would you say that's?
Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, obviously there are many wonderful midwives that do,
I think, really center the birthing person and really help them make choices
for their birth that, you know, it's not like this top down,
(14:10):
like I'm going to be the decision maker here.
Right. That's kind of what I mean. Yes, exactly.
But I think that there are times in births where, like you said,
the birthing person, the mom is exhausted.
They they are completely depleted.
And what they really need in that moment is a midwife or anybody to step in
(14:31):
and say, hey, you're really close to having your baby.
These are some things that I think might help you get to that point.
Let's try this or let's do this. I see with a free birth, like I said, it goes really well.
But then when it doesn't go well, I think it can be really defeating for the
people that have to go into the hospital or have to transfer because suddenly
(14:52):
they feel like, gosh, like, did I fail?
Like, did I make a mistake? Am I good enough?
It's a really, for me, a really gray area. And I think that's something that
you and I talk about a lot, Jen.
Privately is that I think the free
birth world often makes a lot of these decisions very black and white.
Like, okay, you're free birthing. You're not getting assistance.
(15:15):
You can't even talk about assistance. Like there are groups where if you talk
about like suggesting the money, you get kicked out.
So it's a very black and white mentality where this is the only way to do it.
And if you choose another option, you are setting yourself up for obstetrical
violence, for birth rate.
I mean, the language that they use is very extreme.
(15:35):
A lot of these folks, to be perfectly honest, have not attended very many births.
They've attended a handful of births. They've attended their own births.
As someone, you know, collectively, Jen and I, we've probably seen a thousand
births. And I will tell you that birth is wild. It's mysterious.
It does not always make sense. It is not always fair.
It is not always right. I wish that it was.
(15:58):
I wish we could follow this, you know, these set rules and guarantee a healthy
baby and a healthy mom, healthy birthing person.
But that's not how birth always works for us as experienced birth workers.
I think the concern comes in when we get to this black and white thinking of
like, this is the only way to do it.
(16:19):
And if you get any help, or if you use a midwife, or if you go to the the hospital,
then you've essentially failed.
And that is not the reality that I want to live in or the reality that I want
to be part of personally.
So that's some of the controversy. And again, like I said, Jen and I fully support,
and we always will fully support all of our clients and our community to choose
(16:44):
whatever feels right to them.
Even if it's a choice we wouldn't make, even if we have some reservations about
it, I firmly believe that the person giving birth knows what is best for themselves,
for their family, for their baby.
But at the same time, I think as parents,
a culture and as like a community, I think the birth community,
we have to wrestle with how we're talking about free birth and some of the black
(17:08):
and white language that people are using to talk about that option or choice.
And on the other side, you know, there's people that say that free birth is totally wrong.
And it's like, you know, the worst thing you could do and you're putting your
baby at risk and you're an awful parent.
And I think that's just as damaging and just as dangerous as the other side.
So again, just black and white again, right? It's exactly.
(17:30):
So I think, you know, we're here to kind of sit in the messy middle,
the gray area where we acknowledge both sides.
And we, you know, again, want to really give our clients and our community the
support they need to make the choice that feels most aligned with them and their values, right?
My values are going to be different than somebody else's values.
(17:52):
And so I think that's important to recognize as a birth photographer and a birth
worker. But here's the complication.
While, yes, we support everybody's choices and we fully believe in bodily autonomy,
we have to decide how and if we are going to document, support free birth.
(18:16):
Because like we said, you're going to be asked to do it and you've got to figure
out what you feel about it.
And that decision might change you know you might like
do a free birth and be all for a free birth and
then decide that maybe that wasn't for you or vice versa I think
that decision for me has changed over time 10 years
ago when we started doing this we would hear you know about a free birth maybe
(18:40):
a couple times a year and I think the response not necessarily for me but from
the birth photography community is well you probably don't want to put yourself
in that position because then You would be taking photos. You would be liable.
You're probably the most experienced person in that room. What are you going
to do if something goes wrong? How are you going to manage it?
(19:02):
And how are you going to manage it with the family, with yourself,
with the baby, like all of these things?
I think for at least for me early on in my career, I don't know that I could
have done it in a way that I could have attended somebody's birth and been.
Like a positive presence for them, you know, because the most important thing
we are doing here is documenting without our feelings and emotions present in the space.
(19:26):
Like we can't be afraid of a free birth and then go to a free birth.
That's just not, it's not the right thing to do for anybody,
yourself or your clients.
And now my feeling on that has changed a lot over the years.
And if it's the right client, I do feel a little bit more comfortable going
now, but But every single time, you know, you have to think about it.
You have to think about all of the situations that can arise.
(19:48):
And what are you going to do if you are asked to help or if something does go wrong?
And are you going to be able to live with that situation?
And that's something that you have to ask yourself. There's no right or wrong answer.
It all comes from you. And it all comes from your relationship with the people
and the family giving birth. Absolutely.
You know, I agree. I agree. I think that my feelings about attending free births
(20:13):
have changed and evolved.
And to be honest, I think you mentioned this, Jen, it's a pretty fluid feeling.
I might feel really comfortable doing a free birth this month,
and then there might be a few months down the road where I'm not in the right
space emotionally to go into that birth.
Again, I've seen a lot. And I think you've seen a lot too, Jen.
(20:36):
And we've been in a lot of really tricky emergent situations.
And both at home and at the hospital. It doesn't matter where you're at.
Like, I want to take that out of it. Some of the scariest stuff I've seen is in a hospital.
So, yeah, take that piece out of it because it can happen anywhere.
But, you know, you do have to, if you're going to do a free birth,
(20:59):
you need to be able to go into that space.
And and not be bringing a lot of
fear or anxiety because i do think that that negatively impacts
everybody in the room if you are the person in the
corner that is like freaking out and you know panic texting your your birth
photographer friends like that's probably not a space for you to be in but you
(21:22):
know i think it's it is important to realize that you know usually when people decide to free birth,
they will tell you and they will believe like, look, I'm going to accept all
responsibility for this.
I am going to make the call. I will be the one in charge.
And by and large, that is what happens. But, but, but, but there are always
(21:47):
situations where things go haywire and I've been at births where this has happened.
And Jen, I know you have too, where what was expected was so drastically different than what happened.
And sometimes what seemed like a very easy, like.
Okay, they're going to make the call. They're going to make the choice.
It's very black and white. Again, birth is not black and white.
(22:09):
And so there have been situations where, oh shit, like someone is bleeding.
Someone is hemorrhaging. They're not conscious. What do I do? Do I call 911?
Do I listen to what they said? Because they told me not to call 911.
That can happen in birth. And so you have to ask yourself, do I feel comfortable
and confident in it enough to go into this birth space and potentially be faced
(22:34):
with that kind of a decision.
And again, I think that's why it comes back to relationship.
I have clients who are now like dear friends to me. They're like best friends.
And if they told me like, Hey Monet, I want to do a free birth.
I would say yes, without a question, because we have such a deep relationship.
(22:55):
It's more than just like they've hired me to be their photographer.
They're truly my friend.
And in that situation, I would feel far more comfortable to enter that space
than somebody that found me on Google or through social media who I don't really know very well.
I think that in that situation, it sometimes is a little bit harder for me to
(23:15):
feel comfortable and my ability to enter that birth space and know what they
would want me to do if an emergency happened with my friends.
Like if, you know, if Jen told me I'm going to have a free birth,
I'd say, okay, cool. I'll show up.
And I know Jen well enough that I, I have a pretty good idea.
If, you know, if things got wild, what she would want me to do.
(23:38):
And we have the relationship where if after the fact, she was like, Monet, you did this.
It really pissed me off. We'd be like, okay, I'm sorry.
And we would be able to like, you know, we would, we would work through it. That's that.
And so in a lot of ways, I do think, and I think even the free birth folks would
say this, so this is kind of part of their movement, is that hiring a stranger to come to your birth.
(24:01):
May not be the best fit for a free birth. You may want to find someone that
is a close friend, someone that you have that, those shared values with,
that you have that, you know, friendship before and after the birth to kind
of help you navigate some of these difficult choices.
So, you know, again, we don't want to tell anybody, including birth photographers
in our community, what to do, but we do want to really make you consider and
(24:26):
think like things get crazy at birth.
And if a baby's not breathing or if a mom is bleeding out, are you going to
be okay just sitting there with your camera?
You may or may not, you know? And so I think those are things you really want to really think about.
And in all reality, it's going to go fine. It's not going to be a problem.
It's going to be a smooth birth.
(24:46):
But there are absolutely cases where it is not. And that's just birth.
And I hate to say that, but that is reality.
And I think you have to have those conversations with your clients, too.
Even if it's not a close friend and, you know, a client reaches out and hires
you and it does feel like the right situation,
like you need to be on the phone with that person and talking to them and just,
(25:09):
you know, figuring out where they are on some of these, like on some of the
things that could potentially happen. Like, where do they fall?
If I'm bleeding, do you want, you know, a shot of pit or do you want somebody
to tell you, hey, that's too much blood? Like, you really need to have a conversation
with somebody before you're stepping into their space like that.
(25:29):
You need to know what they want, who in that room is going to make those decisions.
Because if it's not the person giving birth, is it the partner?
Is it the friend that's in the space? Is it the grandma? Like, who is it?
And you want to be able to be comfortable, like Monet said, just all around.
You know, if those decisions have to be made, that you can make them and nobody's
(25:54):
going to get upset later on.
Like, oh, you called 911 and I probably didn't need it and we sent the ambulance
away, but hey, like I was safe. Thank you for doing that.
Versus you called 911. I wish you hadn't done that. Now we owe $1,200.
Like, or whatever, you know, you really do need to think about these things.
This is the reality of it. And even hearing this now, if you have not attended
(26:17):
many births and you're just like, birth is going to be fine, it's going to be fine.
There are going to be times where you see something and it's not fine.
So you just have to be aware of that.
Yeah. I think that's so true, Jen.
Another thing that I was thinking about for me, a red flag for me, at least right now.
(26:38):
I think that there are people that choose free birth because it's like a philosophy
that they've bought into. It aligns with their values.
And then there are people that are choosing free birth because they have risked
out of the care of their midwife and they have decided kind of in a panicked
response, like, I don't want to go to the hospital. I guess I'm just going to give birth.
(27:01):
Or perhaps there's a big financial situation and they can't afford to buy to
have a midwife come to their birth.
Those are two very different camps of people. Absolutely.
And the people that are choosing free birth because it's like philosophically
what they believe in deep down, they tend to be very educated and they tend
to have a very strong sense of like personal responsibility.
(27:24):
And I am going to be the one that makes the call.
I am going to be the one that is in charge of this whole thing versus someone
that's kind of getting pressured into free birth because their options have
been taken away. way, I find that those folks, they really wanted a midwife.
They hired a midwife, right?
Like they went into their pregnancy and their birth wanting a midwife.
(27:44):
And so they're choosing this option because unfortunately, state regulations
are making them choose this option.
But I think deep down, they want a midwife.
And so if things go south or if things get out of control, those folks folks,
I find do look for somebody in the room to help them to step into that midwife role.
(28:06):
And as someone like me, I've been to a lot of births. I've seen lots of shoulder dystocias resolved.
I've seen lots of hemorrhages resolved.
I have a pretty good knowledge about a lot of things, but I am not trained to handle any of those.
I've never helped a baby that was stuck in a true shoulder dystocia get out, get unstuck.
(28:27):
If that person looks at me with panic in their eyes and says,
Oh my God, Monet, can you like step in?
Oh my, I, I, that's not something that I personally am comfortable with.
So I think you have to really think about that.
If someone reaches out to you about free birth, why are they doing a free birth?
And if things do turn, are they going to be looking to the most experienced
(28:49):
birth worker in the room?
And in a lot of cases, you are probably the most experienced birth worker.
And so those are things that you You really, you really want to consider it.
So, you know, say, you know, you get an inquiry. It's a free birth.
I think the best thing to do if you're kind of like in the area that we are
in a little bit of area of gray is to just start a conversation,
talk to them on the phone, meet for coffee.
(29:12):
You know, you will probably get a really good sense right away if you feel like,
okay, this feels like a good fit. I feel like we're on the same page.
If you have any hesitancy, like it's okay to say no. It is really important in this work.
I believe that every single birthing person has bodily autonomy.
And I also believe every birth worker has the autonomy to say no when they don't
(29:35):
feel comfortable. And we need to say that more.
Like, I think that's so important. Like, you're not abandoning somebody if this
is making you feel very uncomfortable too.
You're not the right person for that situation.
Absolutely. Maybe this is a good like lead into, you know, what if plans change?
What if just like you said, somebody had a midwife.
The midwife said, you are not low risk anymore. I cannot take you.
(29:59):
You need to go to the hospital. And the client says, I don't want to go to the
hospital. I'm going to have a free birth.
And then the client reaches out to you to tell you this because they're a great client.
And they want to tell you how their birth is going and how things are changing.
And you have to make a decision then too. Do you still feel comfortable being
the person in that space? space or would you rather not attend that birth?
(30:25):
And how do you reconcile that with your client?
I think we had this almost same situation in group just this week or today or yesterday.
It was an anonymous post where somebody said, this birth situation changed.
Now they're doing a free birth. I'm not sure if I feel comfortable with this
because of A, B, and C, what would you do? How do you handle it?
And I think that's a conversation we hear at least monthly now.
(30:50):
Right. What, what would you do? I think that, you know, it's interesting when
I think about birth work and, you know, sexuality, it's all tied in together.
And, you know, we talk a lot about consent and how you, if it's not a full yes,
if you're not feeling like, yes, this feels really right, then that's a no.
And you should articulate that and feel okay in setting up that boundary.
(31:13):
And so I think if you're feeling that hesitation, if you're not sure if you're
uncomfortable, then do yourself a favor and do your client a favor.
I've been in that situation and I have told the client, and this is true, I believe it.
I am so happy that you're making this choice for you and I support your bodily autonomy.
(31:34):
And I don't want you to feel like I'm abandoning you, but I am just not in the
right space right now and the right place right now to support you in the way
that you need to be supported.
And so I have to say no.
And you You don't have to judge their choices. You don't have to tell them scary
stories. You don't have to make them feel bad.
But just as we tell our clients, you have a right to say no to any intervention
(32:00):
that you're not comfortable with. We have to practice that ourselves.
We have a right to say no if we're no longer comfortable.
I think you say no. I think you say no in a way that, again,
it's not judgmental. you can offer to do like, I'm happy to come and do a fresh
48 session after baby is here.
You know, if you know people in your community that are comfortable doing free
(32:23):
births, you can always list those names and give those names out.
But I would be, I would only give names to folks that know what they're getting into.
You know, sometimes I would check in, I would check with my dad,
like, are you okay with this? Oh, I'll pass along your name. Right.
You don't want to give this to like a new birth photographer who's excited because
it's like, oh my gosh, I want to go to a birth. Yeah.
(32:46):
It can be very exciting to get any kind of inquiry if you're new.
I just don't think it's a good space for a new birth photographer to be in.
I really don't. Unless it's a close friend, unless it's somebody that you have
that established relationship with, that makes all the difference.
But if this is like a professional, purely a professional situation,
I think this is a more advanced experience birth photographer situation.
(33:08):
Yeah. And like Jen said at the beginning, it's okay if you're like,
there are times where you feel comfortable doing it. And there are times when
you don't feel comfortable doing it.
I had a really horrible, tragic situation with one of my clients this year.
And shortly afterwards, I had someone reach out to me that needed to change
birth plans. And it wasn't exactly free birth. It was a little bit different.
(33:29):
But I was just not in the right emotional space to enter the birth space with
peace, with joy, with the presence that I knew that this client deserved.
And so I said, I'm so sorry. I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to say no.
And of course I refunded her money. And I felt, I had that kind of guilt of
(33:51):
like, people, please, like I should just do it. Right.
But after I said no, I was like, okay, like I honored myself.
I honored my boundaries.
And that's how you continue to do birth work for years and years and years is
saying no, because if you say yes, you're going to get in situations where you're
not comfortable, you're going to get burnt out, you're going to get hurt.
(34:12):
And so it's really good to honor that no, if you feel uncomfortable with a situation.
Absolutely. It's so important to just be able to have that fluidity on both
sides, really. Yes, absolutely.
You know, and if you're at a birth, and if you decide to do a free birth,
I do think it's really important, like Jen said, to have a pretty detailed conversation.
Okay, what should we do if this happens? What do you want me to do if this happens?
(34:37):
If I start feeling uncomfortable, do you want me to stay or go?
Because there might be a situation if you've been with somebody for 40 hours
and they're leaking meconium and it smells like an infection and you can tell that they're febrile.
Are you comfortable staying there? I would not be comfortable staying.
(34:57):
I would be like, we need to go to the hospital or I'm going to need to go home.
And so you want to kind of gauge, talk about some of this ahead of of time because
you want to know and you want to both be on the same page.
And if you guys are finding that even that conversation isn't going well,
then you probably shouldn't go to the birth because it's likely that there's
going to be some conflict at the birth.
And the last thing you want to do is jeopardize somebody's birth experience
(35:22):
or jeopardize your own boundaries as a birth worker.
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Are there any other thoughts or questions that you have, Jen,
about free birth? I'm trying to think if there's anything. No, I know.
That's where I was going. Like, what else? What else do you want to say about this?
No, I feel like we addressed a lot of the things.
(35:44):
And I hope that birth photographers and even doulas can hear this and,
you know, make some decisions based on what we've said today or,
you know, learn at least a little bit if this is for them or not.
Right. Because you are going to hear about it. It's going to come up.
An inquiry is going to come through. Somebody is going to refer you.
And I do think if you've done one or two free births before and you've had good
(36:08):
outcomes, people will, you know, people know that the free birth like kind of movement.
If you have a free birth, you know, people around you probably that have had a free birth.
And so you can get referred and recommended and you can, there's a doula here
that this is what she does.
She does all of the free birth births and she's like a doula assistant midwife and that's her role.
(36:31):
And, and she's very happy to be in that space.
And so, yeah, I think, you know, you, you just have to figure out the types
of birth that you feel good attending with the types of people that you feel good.
Right. And it's, and it's, there's no, like I said, this is not a black and white situation.
There's no, we don't want to say here like, oh, you should never do free births
or you should all do free births. Right.
(36:52):
No, no, it's not like that. I think everybody has different values.
And the most important thing is that if you, you know, decide to do it,
do it because it aligns with your values.
You know, the birthing person, the birthing woman, they deserve to have somebody
in their birth space that truly respects them and their choices.
And so if you are feeling hesitant, then you're just not the right person.
(37:15):
And that's okay. It's okay.
It's okay. And if you are the right person, then they can be absolutely beautiful
to witness and to document.
And like I said, undisturbed birth most often goes so well.
And I wish that every provider had an opportunity to witness undisturbed birth
because they might reconsider some of the things that they regularly do.
(37:40):
Because, you know, again, you,
our bodies do birth really well, but again, nature is, is, is not always kind
and it can be tricky and birth can be wild.
And so again, back to that like messy gray, but we were happy to have the conversation.
I always love when it comes up in group because I think it allows people to
(38:01):
really think and, you know, and, and I've found that the conversation lately,
especially has been really respectful.
People aren't getting upset or judgmental, but they're just listening to their
inner voice and setting their own boundaries. And I think that's a really beautiful thing to see.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Everybody deserves to have respect in the birth space.
(38:22):
And whatever choice that you make, whether it's a free birth or a planned cesarean
birth, as long as you are very well-educated and well-informed,
have the birth that you want. I think that's really important.
And I don't think, I think birth photographers like generally feel that way.
I mean, we cannot, we walk into births in hospitals and homes and birth centers.
(38:44):
And you can't do that if you really don't feel like everybody should have full
autonomy to have their birth wherever they want. Absolutely.
And I think that's really like a special thing about birth photographers,
because we're not all bringing an agenda or not necessarily bringing an agenda like it's just birth.
We love birth and we can see beauty in all aspects of it. Absolutely.
(39:07):
We're storytellers, and I think that we see beautiful, healing,
redemptive stories in hospitals, and we see beautiful, healing,
redemptive stories at home.
And I love that my job is to go into spaces and to find that story and bring
it to the forefront of my family's memory and minds.
(39:29):
And I think it's a really cool part of our job, for sure. Yeah, for sure.
Well, do we want to end with like a, when would you go to a birth?
Sure. I don't know that I have one offhand. We can talk about one of the five
that we've been to in the last seven days.
I was just trying to think of a good one. Oh goodness.
(39:50):
Okay. I can do one. So I was at a birth two nights ago and it was like a beautiful birth. It went well.
I went home. I was exhausted and slept.
And my, it was like similar. So it was the same midwife team.
(40:11):
I got a text from them at 7.30 in the morning and they said,
Hey, I'm headed to so-and-so's house.
They are pretty sure they're in active labor. And this person was like early, like 37 weeks.
And so we were kind of like not expecting this at all. And we had been up, you know.
For a lot of the night with this other client, right? So I got this text message
(40:34):
at 7.30. It was a second baby.
When would you go? Oh, that's tough. I would probably try to check in with the
client real quick if I could.
But just based on that information, my gut would tell me to get up and go because
if the midwife is going, you need to go.
However, However, if you have been up all night and you're sleeping,
(40:58):
I might have hesitated there in bed and just said, OK, if the midwife's on her
way there, she's going to tell me all my stuff is right here.
I know where it's at and I will wait and hear what she says and go.
And I actually had I did a similar thing over the weekend and I didn't miss
the birth, but I felt like I could have gotten there a little earlier.
(41:19):
So I don't know. That's it.
Again, like we said, it's all a gray area.
Yeah. So I, I wouldn't, let me just say, if I would have slept all night,
I would have got up and gone.
So spoiler, I missed the birth, but I, I did actually, I literally got the message.
I got, it was seven 30 that I got the message.
(41:39):
I got out of bed. Ryan was like, do you want to make some breakfast?
I was like, no, you want to hack your computer?
Cause I always like, when I don't bring my computer to a birth,
it's like always really long. And I was like, no, I just got to go.
And so I literally like, I, I left the, I left the shirt that I was wearing. I threw on a bra.
I like literally was out of the house in four minutes, got in the car,
(42:02):
drove to the birth and I missed it by like 10 minutes.
Maybe there was no way there was no way I could have made it.
Like if, even if I left like the second that that phone call,
like even if I was in the car, I would have missed the birth.
So anyway, it was a bummer, but you know, it just goes to show that birth is wild.
And it very easily could have been like the midwife could have gotten there
(42:24):
and been like, Oh, she's like her drum roll. She's three centimeters.
Like we have all day. And then I would have been like hungry,
you know, without my laptop, like both options, I think we're totally within
reason, but I did miss birth and my client, I mean, they had such a beautiful
birth and they were so happy.
And I was there right after, you know, baby was still placenta was still inside,
(42:45):
you know, all the cord, everything was beautiful. full.
So I'm glad that I made it as quickly as I did. But you know, those mole tips.
They can, they can throw you for a loop for sure. So yeah.
Yeah. I, yeah, for sure. They all can really, I had two primates.
So yeah, that's true. That's true. They all can.
There's no, yeah. Yeah. Always, always a surprise.
(43:06):
Always on your toes in this job. That's for sure.
Absolutely. Well, thank you guys for joining us and we can't wait to share more
with you next week. Thank you. Bye. Bye.
Thanks for tuning in. Find out more about us, our courses, and other tools for
birth photography at birthbecomesyou.com.
And make sure to follow along on Instagram and Facebook at birthbecomesyou.
(43:29):
And if you love listening, make sure to give us five stars on Apple Podcasts
and subscribe wherever you listen.
Thanks. Catch you on the flip side.
Hi, Jen. Hi, Monet. How are you? Good.
I've had a busy week. I've had, I think, two births, three births maybe.
Yeah, three clients this week. And so it's been a lot of birth activity.
And I finally got a good night of sleep last night. So I'm feeling much more
refreshed today. How are you?
(00:20):
I'm good. I'm about in the same position. I had two births over the weekend and a family wedding.
So I had a birth and then I went to this wedding and then I left and went to a birth.
So it was a lot. And I'm just finally feeling like I'm catching up on sleep
and just like feeling back to myself.
But of course, I still have three other clients that are potentially having their babies soon.
(00:45):
So, you know, that's how it goes. Yep, on our toes always.
We're hoping to sneak this recording in before my next client.
I have someone that's getting her membrane swept today, so I'm assuming that
I'll go to her birth sometime this afternoon or evening.
But yeah, we are super excited to be here today.
We're going to be talking about free birth, which I think will be an interesting
(01:09):
contrast to the discussion we had last week about cesarean birth.
So we are really grateful that you are here today and we can't wait to share our thoughts.
And as always, we'd love to hear your thoughts. So please reach out to us via
email or social media because we want this to be a two-way conversation. So let's get into it.
(01:31):
Hi, it's Monet and Jen, and we are the co-founders of Birth Becomes You.
We are birth photographers and doulas with over 10 years of experience.
We've attended over 1,000 births collectively We started Birth Becomes You to
create a safe space for new and experienced birth photographers to share and grow.
We aim to equip and empower birth workers to feel confident in the birth space
(01:54):
and take beautiful, world-changing images.
We believe in a world where birth is visible, where shame is absent,
where fear is translated to power, and where each individual's experience is
honored as valid and valued.
We are so glad you're here, and we can't wait to learn and connect with you.
(02:18):
We are so glad that you joined us for the debut of our podcast.
And to thank our first listeners, we are offering an exclusive promotion of
25% off any item in the shop through the end of July.
To redeem it, you can go to birthbecomesyou.com and click on the shop in our
(02:38):
menu and use promo code PODCAST25 at checkout. out.
That's promo code podcast25 when you check out.
We have tons of items in the shop that include toolkits and contracts for birth
photographers, toolkits for new birth photographers to teach you how to photograph
(03:01):
your own birth and step into the birth space for the very first time.
We also have presets. We have mentoring.
We have a whole host of things. So head on over to our shop at birthbecomesyou.com
and use code podcast25 at checkout. Thank you so much.
All right, let's go. Do you want to talk a little bit about like what a free birth is first?
(03:25):
I think that's probably the best. I think the definition is probably important.
And, you know, I think we could spend a lot of time, honestly,
going into the history of free birth and the way that it's looked throughout time.
This is not necessarily a new idea or a new concept.
People have been birthing by themselves for many, many years,
(03:49):
probably for hundreds and hundreds of years.
But I do think that in the last, I don't know, I would say five years,
we have seen a rapid increase in people who are deciding to free birth or to birth unassisted.
I think it was for a long time, pretty fringe, and you didn't hear about it very often.
(04:13):
And now in our Facebook group, we hear about free birth all the time.
I would say, you know, once a week, somebody's asking a question about free
birth and should I go to a free birth?
What does it mean for me as a birth photographer.
And so it's definitely something that people are choosing more and more.
And essentially, you're just giving birth usually with yourself and your partner, maybe.
(04:39):
Sometimes there is an additional support person, but they're not a trained medical birth attendant.
So you're not having a traditional midwife.
You may have a doula, but that doula is not technically doing anything that
would be clinical or medical.
They're just there as emotional support.
(05:01):
People that free birth really believe that they alone should be responsible
for their bodies. There's a lot of like.
Talk about sovereignty and bodily autonomy and that they alone should be making
decisions for themselves and their baby.
They acknowledge that there is some inherent risk in giving birth and there's
(05:24):
some inherent risk in giving birth at home,
but in their mind, that is much more preferable than the risks of going into
the hospital or hiring a traditional midwife or
a certified midwife that is answering to not only the client,
but also to the state, honestly,
(05:45):
or a regulatory board that determines what you can or can't do as a midwife.
So I think that's kind of a brief overview.
And like I said, it used to be something that I didn't hear about often at all.
And now I hear about it all the time.
And so it's definitely becoming a big issue you within the birth community,
(06:06):
and you'll hear people with all sorts of opinions about it.
You tell this to an OB or a labor and delivery nurse, and they will look at
you like it's the worst thing that they've ever heard of in their life.
You tell it to a certified midwife, and they also might be really upset about
it because, as you can imagine, sometimes these births don't go as planned.
(06:30):
And if they have to go into the hospital, some certified midwives worry that
that can actually negatively impact relationships with hospital providers,
just because so often hospital providers don't necessarily differentiate between,
you know, a birth with a trained midwife,
(06:50):
an unassisted birth, home birth is kind of just this one term that gets,
you know, placed on a lot of different types of births.
And so anyway, it's a very, I would say it's a controversial topic.
And I think people have a lot of different opinions and feelings about it.
And so we thought it would be good to talk about it because as birth photographers,
we're obviously not medical providers.
(07:13):
And many of us have been asked to attend free births, have attended free births,
or will be asked to attend free births.
So we wanted to just share some of our experiences and some things for you all
to consider if you are asked to attend a free birth, because you will be.
There's just, it's on what you will be.
(07:35):
I think we should at least start a little bit and talk about why we're seeing
more free births, because I do think that even though that's not specifically
the topic, like that is why all of this is on trend, right?
We're seeing less and less options. We're seeing options being taken away.
In a lot of areas. I know here locally, midwives and birth centers have been
(07:57):
closing and midwives are being pushed out of hospitals.
There was a really popular birth center here called the ABC Birth Center.
And it's where a lot of people went to have their babies. And now that birth center is closed.
You can only go to a hospital with an OB in that area.
And that's a big deal for people. It's a huge, like this is Southfield,
(08:18):
Michigan. This is just outside of Detroit. So this is a really big area.
And that's just speaking about one place in my area. We know we see this all over the country.
I mean, it's not it's not changing. It's it's only getting worse.
Like options are being taken away.
So, of course, people are going to come up with, you know, other options for themselves.
Right. Like if you don't want to give birth in the hospital with an OB and you
(08:42):
don't have another option, you know, a free birth starts to sound like a good
option to you. Yeah, absolutely.
And it's not even necessarily the lack of options in terms of there's not midwives
or there's not birth centers.
I think a lot of people are frustrated by some of the rules and regulations
(09:03):
that midwives have to follow. And it's important to know, at least in the United
States, that these regulations change state by state.
So something that is completely, quote unquote, legal for a home birth midwife
to do in Utah is illegal for a home birth midwife to do in Colorado.
(09:25):
And so you see situations in which, you know, there's state rules saying,
you know, you have to, if you want to give birth at home with a midwife,
the midwife needs to follow these rules.
And some of the rules, I think the rules by and large are trying to make sure
that the people staying at home are low risk, but there's always variations
(09:48):
of normal, right? Right.
And so I have had plenty of clients who reach 42 weeks and they are not in labor.
And here in Colorado, if you are a certified midwife in the state of Colorado,
you have to transfer care to a hospital provider.
Now, these people, nothing's wrong with them. Nothing's wrong with their baby.
(10:10):
Everyone is healthy. In all likelihood, they would go into labor probably sometime in that 42nd week.
But because of state law, that is not an option.
And so as you can imagine, if you've been planning a home birth your entire
pregnancy and you have been envisioning this intervention-free birth,
and then suddenly you get to 41 weeks, 41 and a half weeks, 42 weeks,
(10:33):
and your midwife comes to you and says, I'm sorry, my hands are tied.
We have to go to the hospital. You have to be induced.
I think that it's not unreasonable for people to say, I don't want to do that.
And right now, because of social media, because of podcasting and TikTok,
there's a wealth of discussion and dialogue about, hey, there's another option.
(10:57):
If you don't want to go into the hospital, you could just give birth at home.
You could do a free birth.
And there's, like I said, a lot of information about free birthing.
There's a lot of people that are really into free birthing and are huge advocates for it.
And so it can seem like this awesome option. It's like, okay,
well, I can still have my home birth. I have all the supplies.
(11:19):
I'm just going to do it myself. This is going to go well.
And I think the tricky thing about free birth is that it does go well.
It does go well. I think birth, when left undisturbed, birth goes well the vast majority of the time.
The problem is that there are times when it doesn't. And there are times when
the help of a trained and knowledgeable midwife or birth professional can make a huge difference.
(11:47):
And so that for me, as someone who always supports bodily autonomy,
and I always think people should be able to choose what they want to choose
for their births. I thought about having a free birth myself.
So I'm not saying that this is a bad choice for anybody, but I am saying that,
you know, in a lot of the chatter and talk that I see in the free birth community.
(12:13):
Sometimes there is a lack of acknowledgement of, of complications that can and do happen.
And, you know, there are some things that you can't, you know,
there's some situations that are just completely out of everybody's control,
that a midwife or an OB couldn't save or do anything to help.
But there are numerous situations or complications where that training can make
(12:37):
a difference and can save somebody's life.
And so sometimes I worry that people aren't necessarily understanding the full
risk of what they are entering into.
Also acknowledging that the vast majority of the time it goes super smoothly
and free birth can be a really uncomplicated option for lots of people and I
(13:01):
do think some of that risk.
Maybe isn't something that the birthing person knows of at the time.
Like you don't necessarily know if you're bleeding too much,
if you're just paying attention to your baby in that moment,
or you might not know necessarily if the baby's head is kind of out for a long
time because you're really in the moment and it's having somebody who's in the birth space.
(13:24):
Now it doesn't have to be a midwife necessarily, but just somebody who can say
this is what's happening and speaking that out loud. I do think that's important.
And I don't always see that in the free birth, like births that I've attended.
And I think that's an important piece to talk about.
Sometimes you're really tired in birth and sometimes you're just going by how
you're feeling in the moment and you're not really paying attention to the medical
(13:47):
aspects that are happening because there are some medical aspects that are happening
at every birth. Right. Would you say that's?
Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, obviously there are many wonderful midwives that do,
I think, really center the birthing person and really help them make choices
for their birth that, you know, it's not like this top down,
(14:10):
like I'm going to be the decision maker here.
Right. That's kind of what I mean. Yes, exactly.
But I think that there are times in births where, like you said,
the birthing person, the mom is exhausted.
They they are completely depleted.
And what they really need in that moment is a midwife or anybody to step in
(14:31):
and say, hey, you're really close to having your baby.
These are some things that I think might help you get to that point.
Let's try this or let's do this. I see with a free birth, like I said, it goes really well.
But then when it doesn't go well, I think it can be really defeating for the
people that have to go into the hospital or have to transfer because suddenly
(14:52):
they feel like, gosh, like, did I fail?
Like, did I make a mistake? Am I good enough?
It's a really, for me, a really gray area. And I think that's something that
you and I talk about a lot, Jen.
Privately is that I think the free
birth world often makes a lot of these decisions very black and white.
Like, okay, you're free birthing. You're not getting assistance.
(15:15):
You can't even talk about assistance. Like there are groups where if you talk
about like suggesting the money, you get kicked out.
So it's a very black and white mentality where this is the only way to do it.
And if you choose another option, you are setting yourself up for obstetrical
violence, for birth rate.
I mean, the language that they use is very extreme.
(15:35):
A lot of these folks, to be perfectly honest, have not attended very many births.
They've attended a handful of births. They've attended their own births.
As someone, you know, collectively, Jen and I, we've probably seen a thousand
births. And I will tell you that birth is wild. It's mysterious.
It does not always make sense. It is not always fair.
It is not always right. I wish that it was.
(15:58):
I wish we could follow this, you know, these set rules and guarantee a healthy
baby and a healthy mom, healthy birthing person.
But that's not how birth always works for us as experienced birth workers.
I think the concern comes in when we get to this black and white thinking of
like, this is the only way to do it.
(16:19):
And if you get any help, or if you use a midwife, or if you go to the the hospital,
then you've essentially failed.
And that is not the reality that I want to live in or the reality that I want
to be part of personally.
So that's some of the controversy. And again, like I said, Jen and I fully support,
and we always will fully support all of our clients and our community to choose
(16:44):
whatever feels right to them.
Even if it's a choice we wouldn't make, even if we have some reservations about
it, I firmly believe that the person giving birth knows what is best for themselves,
for their family, for their baby.
But at the same time, I think as parents,
a culture and as like a community, I think the birth community,
we have to wrestle with how we're talking about free birth and some of the black
(17:08):
and white language that people are using to talk about that option or choice.
And on the other side, you know, there's people that say that free birth is totally wrong.
And it's like, you know, the worst thing you could do and you're putting your
baby at risk and you're an awful parent.
And I think that's just as damaging and just as dangerous as the other side.
So again, just black and white again, right? It's exactly.
(17:30):
So I think, you know, we're here to kind of sit in the messy middle,
the gray area where we acknowledge both sides.
And we, you know, again, want to really give our clients and our community the
support they need to make the choice that feels most aligned with them and their values, right?
My values are going to be different than somebody else's values.
(17:52):
And so I think that's important to recognize as a birth photographer and a birth
worker. But here's the complication.
While, yes, we support everybody's choices and we fully believe in bodily autonomy,
we have to decide how and if we are going to document, support free birth.
(18:16):
Because like we said, you're going to be asked to do it and you've got to figure
out what you feel about it.
And that decision might change you know you might like
do a free birth and be all for a free birth and
then decide that maybe that wasn't for you or vice versa I think
that decision for me has changed over time 10 years
ago when we started doing this we would hear you know about a free birth maybe
(18:40):
a couple times a year and I think the response not necessarily for me but from
the birth photography community is well you probably don't want to put yourself
in that position because then You would be taking photos. You would be liable.
You're probably the most experienced person in that room. What are you going
to do if something goes wrong? How are you going to manage it?
(19:02):
And how are you going to manage it with the family, with yourself,
with the baby, like all of these things?
I think for at least for me early on in my career, I don't know that I could
have done it in a way that I could have attended somebody's birth and been.
Like a positive presence for them, you know, because the most important thing
we are doing here is documenting without our feelings and emotions present in the space.
(19:26):
Like we can't be afraid of a free birth and then go to a free birth.
That's just not, it's not the right thing to do for anybody,
yourself or your clients.
And now my feeling on that has changed a lot over the years.
And if it's the right client, I do feel a little bit more comfortable going
now, but But every single time, you know, you have to think about it.
You have to think about all of the situations that can arise.
(19:48):
And what are you going to do if you are asked to help or if something does go wrong?
And are you going to be able to live with that situation?
And that's something that you have to ask yourself. There's no right or wrong answer.
It all comes from you. And it all comes from your relationship with the people
and the family giving birth. Absolutely.
You know, I agree. I agree. I think that my feelings about attending free births
(20:13):
have changed and evolved.
And to be honest, I think you mentioned this, Jen, it's a pretty fluid feeling.
I might feel really comfortable doing a free birth this month,
and then there might be a few months down the road where I'm not in the right
space emotionally to go into that birth.
Again, I've seen a lot. And I think you've seen a lot too, Jen.
(20:36):
And we've been in a lot of really tricky emergent situations.
And both at home and at the hospital. It doesn't matter where you're at.
Like, I want to take that out of it. Some of the scariest stuff I've seen is in a hospital.
So, yeah, take that piece out of it because it can happen anywhere.
But, you know, you do have to, if you're going to do a free birth,
(20:59):
you need to be able to go into that space.
And and not be bringing a lot of
fear or anxiety because i do think that that negatively impacts
everybody in the room if you are the person in the
corner that is like freaking out and you know panic texting your your birth
photographer friends like that's probably not a space for you to be in but you
(21:22):
know i think it's it is important to realize that you know usually when people decide to free birth,
they will tell you and they will believe like, look, I'm going to accept all
responsibility for this.
I am going to make the call. I will be the one in charge.
And by and large, that is what happens. But, but, but, but there are always
(21:47):
situations where things go haywire and I've been at births where this has happened.
And Jen, I know you have too, where what was expected was so drastically different than what happened.
And sometimes what seemed like a very easy, like.
Okay, they're going to make the call. They're going to make the choice.
It's very black and white. Again, birth is not black and white.
(22:09):
And so there have been situations where, oh shit, like someone is bleeding.
Someone is hemorrhaging. They're not conscious. What do I do? Do I call 911?
Do I listen to what they said? Because they told me not to call 911.
That can happen in birth. And so you have to ask yourself, do I feel comfortable
and confident in it enough to go into this birth space and potentially be faced
(22:34):
with that kind of a decision.
And again, I think that's why it comes back to relationship.
I have clients who are now like dear friends to me. They're like best friends.
And if they told me like, Hey Monet, I want to do a free birth.
I would say yes, without a question, because we have such a deep relationship.
(22:55):
It's more than just like they've hired me to be their photographer.
They're truly my friend.
And in that situation, I would feel far more comfortable to enter that space
than somebody that found me on Google or through social media who I don't really know very well.
I think that in that situation, it sometimes is a little bit harder for me to
(23:15):
feel comfortable and my ability to enter that birth space and know what they
would want me to do if an emergency happened with my friends.
Like if, you know, if Jen told me I'm going to have a free birth,
I'd say, okay, cool. I'll show up.
And I know Jen well enough that I, I have a pretty good idea.
If, you know, if things got wild, what she would want me to do.
(23:38):
And we have the relationship where if after the fact, she was like, Monet, you did this.
It really pissed me off. We'd be like, okay, I'm sorry.
And we would be able to like, you know, we would, we would work through it. That's that.
And so in a lot of ways, I do think, and I think even the free birth folks would
say this, so this is kind of part of their movement, is that hiring a stranger to come to your birth.
(24:01):
May not be the best fit for a free birth. You may want to find someone that
is a close friend, someone that you have that, those shared values with,
that you have that, you know, friendship before and after the birth to kind
of help you navigate some of these difficult choices.
So, you know, again, we don't want to tell anybody, including birth photographers
in our community, what to do, but we do want to really make you consider and
(24:26):
think like things get crazy at birth.
And if a baby's not breathing or if a mom is bleeding out, are you going to
be okay just sitting there with your camera?
You may or may not, you know? And so I think those are things you really want to really think about.
And in all reality, it's going to go fine. It's not going to be a problem.
It's going to be a smooth birth.
(24:46):
But there are absolutely cases where it is not. And that's just birth.
And I hate to say that, but that is reality.
And I think you have to have those conversations with your clients, too.
Even if it's not a close friend and, you know, a client reaches out and hires
you and it does feel like the right situation,
like you need to be on the phone with that person and talking to them and just,
(25:09):
you know, figuring out where they are on some of these, like on some of the
things that could potentially happen. Like, where do they fall?
If I'm bleeding, do you want, you know, a shot of pit or do you want somebody
to tell you, hey, that's too much blood? Like, you really need to have a conversation
with somebody before you're stepping into their space like that.
(25:29):
You need to know what they want, who in that room is going to make those decisions.
Because if it's not the person giving birth, is it the partner?
Is it the friend that's in the space? Is it the grandma? Like, who is it?
And you want to be able to be comfortable, like Monet said, just all around.
You know, if those decisions have to be made, that you can make them and nobody's
(25:54):
going to get upset later on.
Like, oh, you called 911 and I probably didn't need it and we sent the ambulance
away, but hey, like I was safe. Thank you for doing that.
Versus you called 911. I wish you hadn't done that. Now we owe $1,200.
Like, or whatever, you know, you really do need to think about these things.
This is the reality of it. And even hearing this now, if you have not attended
(26:17):
many births and you're just like, birth is going to be fine, it's going to be fine.
There are going to be times where you see something and it's not fine.
So you just have to be aware of that.
Yeah. I think that's so true, Jen.
Another thing that I was thinking about for me, a red flag for me, at least right now.
(26:38):
I think that there are people that choose free birth because it's like a philosophy
that they've bought into. It aligns with their values.
And then there are people that are choosing free birth because they have risked
out of the care of their midwife and they have decided kind of in a panicked
response, like, I don't want to go to the hospital. I guess I'm just going to give birth.
(27:01):
Or perhaps there's a big financial situation and they can't afford to buy to
have a midwife come to their birth.
Those are two very different camps of people. Absolutely.
And the people that are choosing free birth because it's like philosophically
what they believe in deep down, they tend to be very educated and they tend
to have a very strong sense of like personal responsibility.
(27:24):
And I am going to be the one that makes the call.
I am going to be the one that is in charge of this whole thing versus someone
that's kind of getting pressured into free birth because their options have
been taken away. way, I find that those folks, they really wanted a midwife.
They hired a midwife, right?
Like they went into their pregnancy and their birth wanting a midwife.
(27:44):
And so they're choosing this option because unfortunately, state regulations
are making them choose this option.
But I think deep down, they want a midwife.
And so if things go south or if things get out of control, those folks folks,
I find do look for somebody in the room to help them to step into that midwife role.
(28:06):
And as someone like me, I've been to a lot of births. I've seen lots of shoulder dystocias resolved.
I've seen lots of hemorrhages resolved.
I have a pretty good knowledge about a lot of things, but I am not trained to handle any of those.
I've never helped a baby that was stuck in a true shoulder dystocia get out, get unstuck.
(28:27):
If that person looks at me with panic in their eyes and says,
Oh my God, Monet, can you like step in?
Oh my, I, I, that's not something that I personally am comfortable with.
So I think you have to really think about that.
If someone reaches out to you about free birth, why are they doing a free birth?
And if things do turn, are they going to be looking to the most experienced
(28:49):
birth worker in the room?
And in a lot of cases, you are probably the most experienced birth worker.
And so those are things that you You really, you really want to consider it.
So, you know, say, you know, you get an inquiry. It's a free birth.
I think the best thing to do if you're kind of like in the area that we are
in a little bit of area of gray is to just start a conversation,
talk to them on the phone, meet for coffee.
(29:12):
You know, you will probably get a really good sense right away if you feel like,
okay, this feels like a good fit. I feel like we're on the same page.
If you have any hesitancy, like it's okay to say no. It is really important in this work.
I believe that every single birthing person has bodily autonomy.
And I also believe every birth worker has the autonomy to say no when they don't
(29:35):
feel comfortable. And we need to say that more.
Like, I think that's so important. Like, you're not abandoning somebody if this
is making you feel very uncomfortable too.
You're not the right person for that situation.
Absolutely. Maybe this is a good like lead into, you know, what if plans change?
What if just like you said, somebody had a midwife.
The midwife said, you are not low risk anymore. I cannot take you.
(29:59):
You need to go to the hospital. And the client says, I don't want to go to the
hospital. I'm going to have a free birth.
And then the client reaches out to you to tell you this because they're a great client.
And they want to tell you how their birth is going and how things are changing.
And you have to make a decision then too. Do you still feel comfortable being
the person in that space? space or would you rather not attend that birth?
(30:25):
And how do you reconcile that with your client?
I think we had this almost same situation in group just this week or today or yesterday.
It was an anonymous post where somebody said, this birth situation changed.
Now they're doing a free birth. I'm not sure if I feel comfortable with this
because of A, B, and C, what would you do? How do you handle it?
And I think that's a conversation we hear at least monthly now.
(30:50):
Right. What, what would you do? I think that, you know, it's interesting when
I think about birth work and, you know, sexuality, it's all tied in together.
And, you know, we talk a lot about consent and how you, if it's not a full yes,
if you're not feeling like, yes, this feels really right, then that's a no.
And you should articulate that and feel okay in setting up that boundary.
(31:13):
And so I think if you're feeling that hesitation, if you're not sure if you're
uncomfortable, then do yourself a favor and do your client a favor.
I've been in that situation and I have told the client, and this is true, I believe it.
I am so happy that you're making this choice for you and I support your bodily autonomy.
(31:34):
And I don't want you to feel like I'm abandoning you, but I am just not in the
right space right now and the right place right now to support you in the way
that you need to be supported.
And so I have to say no.
And you You don't have to judge their choices. You don't have to tell them scary
stories. You don't have to make them feel bad.
But just as we tell our clients, you have a right to say no to any intervention
(32:00):
that you're not comfortable with. We have to practice that ourselves.
We have a right to say no if we're no longer comfortable.
I think you say no. I think you say no in a way that, again,
it's not judgmental. you can offer to do like, I'm happy to come and do a fresh
48 session after baby is here.
You know, if you know people in your community that are comfortable doing free
(32:23):
births, you can always list those names and give those names out.
But I would be, I would only give names to folks that know what they're getting into.
You know, sometimes I would check in, I would check with my dad,
like, are you okay with this? Oh, I'll pass along your name. Right.
You don't want to give this to like a new birth photographer who's excited because
it's like, oh my gosh, I want to go to a birth. Yeah.
(32:46):
It can be very exciting to get any kind of inquiry if you're new.
I just don't think it's a good space for a new birth photographer to be in.
I really don't. Unless it's a close friend, unless it's somebody that you have
that established relationship with, that makes all the difference.
But if this is like a professional, purely a professional situation,
I think this is a more advanced experience birth photographer situation.
(33:08):
Yeah. And like Jen said at the beginning, it's okay if you're like,
there are times where you feel comfortable doing it. And there are times when
you don't feel comfortable doing it.
I had a really horrible, tragic situation with one of my clients this year.
And shortly afterwards, I had someone reach out to me that needed to change
birth plans. And it wasn't exactly free birth. It was a little bit different.
(33:29):
But I was just not in the right emotional space to enter the birth space with
peace, with joy, with the presence that I knew that this client deserved.
And so I said, I'm so sorry. I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to say no.
And of course I refunded her money. And I felt, I had that kind of guilt of
(33:51):
like, people, please, like I should just do it. Right.
But after I said no, I was like, okay, like I honored myself.
I honored my boundaries.
And that's how you continue to do birth work for years and years and years is
saying no, because if you say yes, you're going to get in situations where you're
not comfortable, you're going to get burnt out, you're going to get hurt.
(34:12):
And so it's really good to honor that no, if you feel uncomfortable with a situation.
Absolutely. It's so important to just be able to have that fluidity on both
sides, really. Yes, absolutely.
You know, and if you're at a birth, and if you decide to do a free birth,
I do think it's really important, like Jen said, to have a pretty detailed conversation.
Okay, what should we do if this happens? What do you want me to do if this happens?
(34:37):
If I start feeling uncomfortable, do you want me to stay or go?
Because there might be a situation if you've been with somebody for 40 hours
and they're leaking meconium and it smells like an infection and you can tell that they're febrile.
Are you comfortable staying there? I would not be comfortable staying.
(34:57):
I would be like, we need to go to the hospital or I'm going to need to go home.
And so you want to kind of gauge, talk about some of this ahead of of time because
you want to know and you want to both be on the same page.
And if you guys are finding that even that conversation isn't going well,
then you probably shouldn't go to the birth because it's likely that there's
going to be some conflict at the birth.
And the last thing you want to do is jeopardize somebody's birth experience
(35:22):
or jeopardize your own boundaries as a birth worker.
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Are there any other thoughts or questions that you have, Jen,
about free birth? I'm trying to think if there's anything. No, I know.
That's where I was going. Like, what else? What else do you want to say about this?
No, I feel like we addressed a lot of the things.
(35:44):
And I hope that birth photographers and even doulas can hear this and,
you know, make some decisions based on what we've said today or,
you know, learn at least a little bit if this is for them or not.
Right. Because you are going to hear about it. It's going to come up.
An inquiry is going to come through. Somebody is going to refer you.
And I do think if you've done one or two free births before and you've had good
(36:08):
outcomes, people will, you know, people know that the free birth like kind of movement.
If you have a free birth, you know, people around you probably that have had a free birth.
And so you can get referred and recommended and you can, there's a doula here
that this is what she does.
She does all of the free birth births and she's like a doula assistant midwife and that's her role.
(36:31):
And, and she's very happy to be in that space.
And so, yeah, I think, you know, you, you just have to figure out the types
of birth that you feel good attending with the types of people that you feel good.
Right. And it's, and it's, there's no, like I said, this is not a black and white situation.
There's no, we don't want to say here like, oh, you should never do free births
or you should all do free births. Right.
(36:52):
No, no, it's not like that. I think everybody has different values.
And the most important thing is that if you, you know, decide to do it,
do it because it aligns with your values.
You know, the birthing person, the birthing woman, they deserve to have somebody
in their birth space that truly respects them and their choices.
And so if you are feeling hesitant, then you're just not the right person.
(37:15):
And that's okay. It's okay.
It's okay. And if you are the right person, then they can be absolutely beautiful
to witness and to document.
And like I said, undisturbed birth most often goes so well.
And I wish that every provider had an opportunity to witness undisturbed birth
because they might reconsider some of the things that they regularly do.
(37:40):
Because, you know, again, you,
our bodies do birth really well, but again, nature is, is, is not always kind
and it can be tricky and birth can be wild.
And so again, back to that like messy gray, but we were happy to have the conversation.
I always love when it comes up in group because I think it allows people to
(38:01):
really think and, you know, and, and I've found that the conversation lately,
especially has been really respectful.
People aren't getting upset or judgmental, but they're just listening to their
inner voice and setting their own boundaries. And I think that's a really beautiful thing to see.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Everybody deserves to have respect in the birth space.
(38:22):
And whatever choice that you make, whether it's a free birth or a planned cesarean
birth, as long as you are very well-educated and well-informed,
have the birth that you want. I think that's really important.
And I don't think, I think birth photographers like generally feel that way.
I mean, we cannot, we walk into births in hospitals and homes and birth centers.
(38:44):
And you can't do that if you really don't feel like everybody should have full
autonomy to have their birth wherever they want. Absolutely.
And I think that's really like a special thing about birth photographers,
because we're not all bringing an agenda or not necessarily bringing an agenda like it's just birth.
We love birth and we can see beauty in all aspects of it. Absolutely.
(39:07):
We're storytellers, and I think that we see beautiful, healing,
redemptive stories in hospitals, and we see beautiful, healing,
redemptive stories at home.
And I love that my job is to go into spaces and to find that story and bring
it to the forefront of my family's memory and minds.
(39:29):
And I think it's a really cool part of our job, for sure. Yeah, for sure.
Well, do we want to end with like a, when would you go to a birth?
Sure. I don't know that I have one offhand. We can talk about one of the five
that we've been to in the last seven days.
I was just trying to think of a good one. Oh goodness.
(39:50):
Okay. I can do one. So I was at a birth two nights ago and it was like a beautiful birth. It went well.
I went home. I was exhausted and slept.
And my, it was like similar. So it was the same midwife team.
(40:11):
I got a text from them at 7.30 in the morning and they said,
Hey, I'm headed to so-and-so's house.
They are pretty sure they're in active labor. And this person was like early, like 37 weeks.
And so we were kind of like not expecting this at all. And we had been up, you know.
For a lot of the night with this other client, right? So I got this text message
(40:34):
at 7.30. It was a second baby.
When would you go? Oh, that's tough. I would probably try to check in with the
client real quick if I could.
But just based on that information, my gut would tell me to get up and go because
if the midwife is going, you need to go.
However, However, if you have been up all night and you're sleeping,
(40:58):
I might have hesitated there in bed and just said, OK, if the midwife's on her
way there, she's going to tell me all my stuff is right here.
I know where it's at and I will wait and hear what she says and go.
And I actually had I did a similar thing over the weekend and I didn't miss
the birth, but I felt like I could have gotten there a little earlier.
(41:19):
So I don't know. That's it.
Again, like we said, it's all a gray area.
Yeah. So I, I wouldn't, let me just say, if I would have slept all night,
I would have got up and gone.
So spoiler, I missed the birth, but I, I did actually, I literally got the message.
I got, it was seven 30 that I got the message.
(41:39):
I got out of bed. Ryan was like, do you want to make some breakfast?
I was like, no, you want to hack your computer?
Cause I always like, when I don't bring my computer to a birth,
it's like always really long. And I was like, no, I just got to go.
And so I literally like, I, I left the, I left the shirt that I was wearing. I threw on a bra.
I like literally was out of the house in four minutes, got in the car,
(42:02):
drove to the birth and I missed it by like 10 minutes.
Maybe there was no way there was no way I could have made it.
Like if, even if I left like the second that that phone call,
like even if I was in the car, I would have missed the birth.
So anyway, it was a bummer, but you know, it just goes to show that birth is wild.
And it very easily could have been like the midwife could have gotten there
(42:24):
and been like, Oh, she's like her drum roll. She's three centimeters.
Like we have all day. And then I would have been like hungry,
you know, without my laptop, like both options, I think we're totally within
reason, but I did miss birth and my client, I mean, they had such a beautiful
birth and they were so happy.
And I was there right after, you know, baby was still placenta was still inside,
(42:45):
you know, all the cord, everything was beautiful. full.
So I'm glad that I made it as quickly as I did. But you know, those mole tips.
They can, they can throw you for a loop for sure. So yeah.
Yeah. I, yeah, for sure. They all can really, I had two primates.
So yeah, that's true. That's true. They all can.
There's no, yeah. Yeah. Always, always a surprise.
(43:06):
Always on your toes in this job. That's for sure.
Absolutely. Well, thank you guys for joining us and we can't wait to share more
with you next week. Thank you. Bye. Bye.
Thanks for tuning in. Find out more about us, our courses, and other tools for
birth photography at birthbecomesyou.com.
And make sure to follow along on Instagram and Facebook at birthbecomesyou.
(43:29):
And if you love listening, make sure to give us five stars on Apple Podcasts
and subscribe wherever you listen.
Thanks. Catch you on the flip side.
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