March 8, 2024 • 46 mins
Black Women Are the Illuminati (BWATI) is a podcast hosted by Nico Rosario and Desiree Burch that showcases Black women visionaries who have inspired and impacted all our world.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi there, this is Desiree Birch. 1 half
of your hosting team for Black Women are
the Illuminati. Welcome to our first ever
episode. I just wanted to come on here
real quick to tell you a couple of
things. We recorded this episode back in
January of 2023, when your co-host Nico
Rosario and I were actually in the same
(00:22):
city and not 5,437 miles apart where we
live in London and Los Angeles. You know,
sometimes it takes a little while for
good things to come into being. Thank you
for waiting world. So you are going to
hear some dated references in this
episode, but what we love about it is
that it is a time encapsulated. 2 sisters
(00:45):
in the same room talking about all that
we've been, what we have done, and who we
might become on this journey. We hope you
enjoy it.
Welcome to Black Women Are the
Illuminati.
The podcast that begins with a hypothesis
behind every cultural and social movement
(01:06):
over which a lot of white guys have
shaken hands and slapped backs.
There's a visionary Black woman who was
saying or doing the prototype years
earlier and who has received little to no
credit at all.
We hope to shine a light on these
trailblazers and help y'all bust asses
improve this messed up world. My name is
(01:31):
Desiree Birch and I am a comedian, an
actor, a voiceover artist, a general
layabout who has managed to monetize
that. Oh man.
I'm Nico Rosario, and I don't know what I
do.
You do like everything. You collect
(01:51):
master's degrees and cool stuff that
everybody goes, wait, you studied what?
I did at 1 point collect master's
degrees. That time is over.
Yes, now it's just collecting student
loan.
Yes, now I collect student loan interest.
And I would say I'm an academic and an
educator and a fun seeker and a cultural
(02:18):
critic to a very small number of
people. Of dedicated followers. Nico's
the coolest lady I know.
And I'm a DJ. See? And a writer.
And like a doula. And a doula. And like
What else? You got all this stuff going
(02:39):
on. If there's something happening
anywhere in your town, Nico already knew
about it a week ago and organized an
outing.
That is true. See? That is true. So yes,
all of those things are true. Yes.
Okay.
Okay, so yes, that's me. Okay, Desiree,
my first memory of you is, I'm trying to
(03:01):
think about this, I think we met at
Whitechapel Gallery in London, is that
right?
I don't know because I smoke too much
weed.
I don't smoke any weed, but I...
So you would remember better than I do.
We have a friend named Claire.
Hi, Claire. Hi, Claire.
We have a friend and she was like, my
(03:24):
friend just moved to London and I think
that you would like her and you guys
should be friends. And I said, okay. And
then I think we met at the Whitechapel
Gallery, but I don't think we saw any
exhibits. I think we just sat on a bench
and chatted.
So many times of us hanging out with a
(03:44):
plan, in quotes, and then just talking
for 5 hours in front of the thing that we
were gonna go to?
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what
happened.
Okay, thank you. That sounds about right.
I do remember when we first met, you
know, it was like mid-conversation. Do
you know what I mean? It was like picking
up where we left off in whichever
lifetime we had left off in or whatever.
(04:06):
It wasn't just like, oh, hi, whatever. It
was just like, so anyway, I was saying
blah, blah, blah, and it just continued
on from there. So I think that we should
tell the good people who will eventually
be listening to us, why it is we wanted
to do a podcast together at all. And in
particular, this 1. I think it's
because your ex-boyfriend said you guys
should do a podcast together because
(04:26):
every time- I forgot about that. I just
listened to you guys talk and then he
bought you equipment to make the podcast
and then you didn't do it. Yeah, no, we
didn't do it at that point. Although I
did buy that Zoom, by the way. I bought
that.
Oh, I thought he did.
But you are right. He did say that. He
did go, you guys should really do... He's
predicted quite... He was the 1 who's
(04:47):
like, you should move to London, you do
really well here. I could move to New
York, but I think you should move to
London. He was right about that. He's
right about a lot of things. So he was
right about the podcast. And I was like,
oh yeah, that's right. We were talking
about that way back in Streatham, which
is like, I've lived in so many different
parts of London since then. But then, so
that sort of, like seeds kind of take a
(05:07):
little while to grow, so that's kind of
planted the seed. But I guess like, I
don't know, why this podcast do
you think?
Well, cause initially we had like
thought, well maybe we'll do a podcast
about 2 American Black girls from,
you
know, going to, moving to London. And
(05:27):
then I don't know why we didn't do that.
Maybe that wasn't that interesting.
Yeah, maybe, yeah. Maybe we were just
like, we can do a little bit more.
And then I originally had approached you
because I was wanting to do like an
incubation during the pandemic when I had
nothing to do. I was like, oh, let's like
do this other, this podcast. It was a
version of this podcast called the, what
(05:50):
was it called? The Black Women's History
Project
or something like that.
Something like that, yeah.
Where we would like talk to Black
academics and it's just about their
research and stuff, Black women academics
about their research. So that was kind of
like the seed that we had started. And
then we applied for this like incubation
lab that they didn't give us because, you
(06:12):
know, they were sleeping.
Yeah, They were. Genius. Yeah, they were
sleeping real hard. But yeah, and I also,
I think, because of having done some
other podcasts in my work, in particular,
when I first did the couple, like I did 2
episodes with, of You're Dead to Me,
(06:32):
which is, I'm sorry to promote another
podcast, guys, but it's a really good 1.
It's another history podcast. And I'd
done 1 episode about Harriet Tubman and
another 1 about Josephine Baker with this
academic, Michelle Cressfield, who's
amazing and also American, who works at,
I think, University of Birmingham there.
But I just was, you know, like you kind
of, like, you're an academic, she's an, I
(06:54):
kept coming across and it was like, oh
yeah, black women go and like study all
of these things and keep the records and
bring the stories forward. And there's
like a long history of that. And why not,
why not like spotlight that they're doing
that and also the subjects that they're
talking about at the same time. And
there's kind of this like, I don't know,
it's just something about like the
(07:15):
generational feeding of that, like the
ancestry of that. There's something about
that that's really kind of like witchy
and cool to me in a way that I wanted to
see play out.
And I think also Black women look for
subjects and they look for things that
are just not available and they have to
(07:35):
do it because there is no 1 else to do
it. So I think that was like why I was
initially anyway focused on like the
academic realm because I was like, how
many stories would we just have never
ever gotten if someone hadn't said, I
wanna know more or why is there an
(07:58):
absence? So that was what I thought was
kind of interesting.
Did you feel that way? I mean, you
studied, amongst other things, rave
culture. Did you feel when you were going
down that road that like, did you get to
a place where you went, oh wait, If I
don't look into this, no 1 else is gonna
come looking for it.
(08:19):
Well, I think what happened, so I was
studying in rave, and what I realized
when I was looking at these rave laws
that were, or dancing laws that were
happening in New York, at the time, when
dancing was still illegal, which has now
finally been reversed. All of those laws
(08:40):
were steeped in bigotry and racism. They
were all like cabaret laws that were set
up to discriminate against black people
in particular. And so there were people
that were looking at it and there were
people who were interested in that, but
they were never really looking at it from
the point of view of this is a racist
(09:03):
narrative that has now has been turned
into public policy that now we are still
reeling from. It wasn't necessarily like
couched in that language in the same way.
Some people were looking at different
aspects of it through racism, like Billie
Holiday would be an example of how we
(09:23):
knew that there was this racist angle and
they were using the cabaret laws to
silence her. And then they made that film
that kind of talks about that. So that,
but again, that was maybe not every
single historian or whoever is gonna be
Black because there are still pockets of
(09:44):
people that, you know, like we're, we
might have a subject who's black, who's
interesting to us, and there is no black-
And
the expert on that is a non-Black person.
Yeah, there's just no Black person for
that. And, you know, so that's the other
challenge of the, what, you know, the
conceit of what we're gonna do. But I
think that all of that is still kind of
an interesting way to shape how we're
(10:08):
going to do this podcast.
Yes. For me, I feel like I need to do
this podcast because it is an important
part of my spiritual, psychological
growth to be looking at everything and
everyone who came before who has
contributed to who I am and the world
that I live in and the legacy that I
probably should be working a little bit
(10:29):
harder to carry forward or that I maybe,
hopefully, God willing, will become a
part of 1 day. So I feel like it's, you
know, for me, it feels like a spiritual
endeavor as much as it feels like a
professional 1 to have a podcast. But I
just, to me, I need to know these stories
(10:51):
and I know myself if I don't make it work
then I won't do it so I'm like let me
start to go and find these stories not
only of what we know about these women
but what we don't know that we should
know about these women.
Exactly, I mean, my thing is, is 1 of the
things I didn't list on my list of things
is an archivist.
(11:14):
And
I'm really, or I'm not necessarily an
archivist myself, but I'm more so like an
archival advocate.
Yeah. You're the 1 who told me like, you
need to be archiving your work. And I was
like, well, I got a butt ton of voice
memos of sex. Is that something?
But that is something, you know, and, You
know, I did 2 different presentations at
(11:36):
conferences, 1 of them with the British
library. And that was the thing that kept
coming up was like, people don't think
that what they're doing is interesting or
that other people want to know it. But as
a rave researcher, for instance, when I
was looking at a very specific thread of
(11:56):
like, did rave music change between this
period and this period because of the,
what is it, the laws? I can't remember
the name of the law right now. And 1 of
the things that I was looking for was
flyers to see who were the people who
were DJing in 1994? Were they the same
(12:16):
people that were DJing in 1995? And 1 of
the things that was really cool was a lot
of people had recordings where they would
go to a rave and they would record hours
of the music.
And
you could kind of see, and I was like,
see, this is what I'm saying. They didn't
say, I'm saving this for prosperity
because someone will eventually want to
(12:39):
do research on this. I mean, they were
just like, I want to listen to this music
again. But that's the thing, that's how
archives start. And also, it's like,
there are so many people who get erased
from the conversation or erased from the
space because they don't save their work.
(13:00):
And no 1 knows that they were there
because the people who care about being
there and being seen there, they make
sure that you fucking know that they were
there. And you know, so-
Yeah, and
they usually
aren't as good as the people who don't
make sure that they, you know, they were
there.
Exactly. They're
just the people who are good at being
like, hey, I'm doing this thing. I mean,
it's basically like, and I'm doing that,
(13:20):
I'm doing that unless someone else has
recorded them. It's like, and I'm also
doing this. And it's
like, do
we care?
And that's what I'm saying. And so it's
like you, and so what happens is women,
not just Black women, but women are like,
I don't want to brag about what I do
because I think that that makes me look
stupid or whatever. So
we don't. Better at
Cella-bragging ourselves.
Yeah, and then, you know, like men
(13:43):
fucking self-cite everything that they
do. Yeah. Like, there's lots of studies
about how many times men self-cite their
own research. It's like IBID underneath
in the footnotes, they've cited their own
thing that they just said
3 pages earlier. Exactly, it's like
fucking insane. And like women don't ever
do that ever. And so it's like, so that
(14:06):
was my impetus would be like, save your
fucking shit, save it all, put it
somewhere.
I've got a wall of shit.
Yeah, save it.
Thanks a lot, Nico.
Good. Be a fucking hoarder, I don't care.
I mean, but like- Trunks of shit. Do it
because that's the only way it's gonna
get preserved. Because no 1 gives a shit
(14:27):
about preserving your shit. And like, So
you have to do it yourself. And then
that's fine to do it yourself. But I
mean, I think that is partially why I'm
like, here's a document, here is an
archival activity that we can do to say,
this person was here, this is what this
(14:48):
person is doing, this is what we found
out from the archive of this person or
whatever. And I think that that is really
cool. Like Aretha Franklin didn't get to
decide whether or not we saw the Amazing
Grace documentary. And she was actively
trying not to have that released. It was
(15:09):
an active litigation at the time that she
died. And literally a month after she was
dead,
the niece was like,
Let's put it out. And it's not because I
think that they were trying to be shitty
to her, but they were like, this is a
cultural moment that we have captured.
That you were at in your finest hour,
(15:31):
even though you don't see it
that way. It's beyond you at this point
in your decision. We deserve to share
this with the world. And I mean, so I
watched it.
Who's right in that situation?
No 1
is right. She made
it, or she channeled it
at least. This is, it's very discerning.
I mean, like this, what's the word?
(15:51):
Disconcerting? Yes, disconcerting to me
that like, someone like Aretha Franklin
didn't have a handle on her own legacy.
Yeah, at the very end of her life too.
Like she didn't get the final say of no
respected.
Right. But did I, am I glad I saw that
documentary? Absolutely. Absolutely.
Because I never would have been able to
(16:14):
see her perform in the seventies in that
way. And it was a moment in time that
like, so I mean, and I'm not complicit by
watching it because I know that she
didn't want it to be released. So how am
I, what is my relationship to that? But
like, that's a different conversation,
But like, you know, at the end of the
day, it's like, I just wanted, I want
(16:38):
whoever feels that something isn't
interesting or important or whatever, I
want them to feel emboldened to be like,
but it is, it's who I am. And it could be
of use to someone else. And so save it
and archive it and leave it to you, leave
(16:58):
your stories to your family members,
leave your, whatever it is, place it
someplace that it can be found again.
That's all I, that's kind of what I'm
always asking. Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think, and well, I guess
this is Very, very useful in what we're
talking about in terms of perspectives,
(17:19):
because I think as far as the strengths
that you bring to this podcast and to
what we're trying to do, is that
investigative kind of like, let's look
for the story beneath the story and let's
preserve the parts of this person that
society might be more willing to ignore
because there are more convenient
(17:43):
narratives for us. I mean, I don't know
if we wanna talk about the fact that
we're actually speaking on Martin Luther
King Day and talking about the duality of
the narrative about him. There is a
narrative that is a safe social narrative
in which we talk a lot about him and his
work, but we don't actually read his work
or focus on the speeches that were about
(18:05):
unions and about supporting
counterculture and about, you know, how
active and how aggressive nonviolence is
actually. It's not a passive resistance.
Nonviolence, you know, really sinks down
to the core and it's really about like
sticking the wrench inside of the gears
of the machine by not responding to that.
(18:26):
And there's so many parts that we don't
talk about, about Kim in particular. And
I feel like 1 of your strengths and what
I'm really interested in doing with this
podcast is to get the other story of a
person. I mean, we contain more than even
2 stories, but if you wanted to simplify
(18:47):
it, there is, you know, there's the story
of who we think we are and who we want to
be. And there's the story of who
everybody else knows and actually sees,
right? There's at least 2 stories of us
and there's probably so many more. And I
think that 1 of the many things that you
bring aside from just like, you know, a
loving perspective and that high pitch
(19:09):
cackle that you make that just brings me
joy and like the very deepest Zen sense
of the word is that respect and that
attention to, you know, duality and
story. And also just being able to be
like, contrary in general and be like,
you know that thing everybody likes? I
don't like that thing. I feel like your
favorite thing to do. And I was like,
(19:31):
okay, let's strap in. It's not
my favorite thing to do is what happens.
It's what every time though, like just
you're, everybody's like chocolate chip
cookies are great and you're like, fuck a
chocolate chip cookie.
Exactly. With this peanut butter.
With this peanut butter.
With this peanut butter.
With this peanut butter.
It's a shit.
You see
what I mean?
So that is what I think, that's just what
I love as part of working with you on
(19:52):
this, is that you're gonna be like peanut
butter forever.
Except for a snickerdoodle. Anyway. Okay,
yes. But, No, but I think the reason that
I wanted to do the podcast with you in
particular is because like you're not
afraid to be like, that is bullshit. And
then you have to like call me on my, and
(20:15):
which is great because so many people
don't do that. So many people are just
like,
they're like, I guess you're right,
or whatever.
And they don't necessarily even think I'm
right about it, but they'll be like,
whatever you say, but you're not
abrasive.
Well, I'm not afraid to call bullshit on
you because I love you.
(20:35):
But no, but you're not abrasive about it
because there's a way to be like, I don't
know that I agree with that. And it's
like an argument, you know? Sure. And I
mean, and that's kind of why, you know, 1
of the, well, I mean,
I
think that you're a diplomatic person in
general anyway, but it's also like, so
there's 2 things I would say that I think
(20:56):
were really exciting about doing the
podcast with you is that we can have a
discussion and we don't necessarily agree
on stuff and we can kind of go back and
forth,
which
I think is the most exciting thing is
being able to go back and forth with
somebody. And also to be like, oh, now
that you say it that way, maybe I don't,
(21:17):
maybe I'm
not so tied. Talking with you is that
I'll be like, that's bullshit, and I'll
argue this other side of the thing, and
then I'll go home, and then I'll be like,
no, no, I see it.
Yeah, you know, and the same with me, and
then also, you usually just say, you
usually say yes to.
To too many things, Nika.
(21:37):
Too many things, but what I guess what
I'm saying is like, you're always like,
that seems cool, that seems interesting.
How do I do more? Like, how do we do
that? Like, what is it thing? You know,
because you have this like genuine
curiosity that's not necessarily about
knowing everything, you know, to know it
all, but you do want to know and you have
(22:00):
that deep sense of wanting to know. Which
that is a rarity. So many people don't
give a shit. They don't wanna know
anything.
La la la la
la la la. And also, they've never thought
about it. It's never occurred to them
that there is something to think about.
About
in that thing.
It's
like, oh, I just thought that was the
thing. Yeah. And you're not like that.
(22:20):
You're always like, that's never the
thing. The thing, that's 1 of the sides
of the thing.
But
there's all these other sides of the
thing that I want to know more about.
There's always more underneath. There's
always more. There's always something
like, who is a figure, since the theme of
our podcast is Black women, I would hope
it would be a black female figure, that
(22:41):
you admire, somebody that gives you life?
Well, okay, so 1 of the people we
actually talked about being maybe like
the grandmother of the, or the godmother,
the fairy, like dead godmother is
Josephine Baker because like, she just
had like all these lives.
Yeah, yes.
Where she did all these things that like,
(23:02):
I didn't even know, like she was like a
spy and she had like a thousand adopted
kids.
She had a menagerie of animals and
children. She like Angelina Jolie did,
she Michael Jackson did. And then she
did, who was a famous international spy?
Josephine Baker. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's like, what the fuck? So like,
and then I'm like, how did I not know
(23:23):
this until like 6 months ago? But then I
called you and you were like, girl, I was
on a podcast talking about her.
Because I had just done that podcast.
Which we're excited to do this.
Yeah, but
that's what I'm saying. And it's like, so
here's a figure, here's a woman that we,
I thought, 1 note lady. You know, like
this is the story is she wears banana
(23:43):
skirts.
Yeah, that's the story. She did this
banana dance. She was hot. She was a hot
Black lady at a time where people were
like, oh my goodness, is that a thing,
that hot black lady? Ooh. And then, of
course, as many notable black people did,
she moved out of America so she could do
some stuff, which I definitely can relate
to. So many people just like, I gotta get
(24:04):
out of here so I can at least have the
freedom to think thoughts that might
actually happen.
Yeah, I
mean, that's the thing. And so it's like
for me, she was kind of like in the
background of my mind, like someone I
thought was really just fascinating. But
I'm trying to think of someone who's
currently living.
(24:26):
Well, I mean, obviously 1 of the people
we want to talk about is Grace Jones, who
for me is somebody that I admire the more
that I learn about her and her journey.
Like I never realized, you know, like I
knew her, I guess the first time I would
have seen her was probably in James Bond,
you know, because of the time. You 2
attend? Yes, because of the time in which
I grew up, you know, and then I, you
(24:46):
know, like she was always definitely, it
was definitely like, I mean, I didn't
know about the model stuff until after I
had seen that. I knew her as an actress,
so I didn't know about her being a model
until then after that. I didn't know
about her being a singer until well after
that, you know, and then learning more
about like, you know, she came from a
very fundamentalist background and like
that was something that I could
(25:07):
immediately relate to as well as her
reaction from that. And the fact that it
was like her gay brother that made her
kind of break. Cause like, you know, it
was just sort of like everyone's like,
oh, you can't do this. You can't be in.
He was in the choir, you know, like doing
the whole thing when you're black and gay
and can't be out. And it was like that.
She was like, okay, I went to the clubs
with him and supported him. And then like
(25:28):
we both brought each other to the place
that we needed to be out of where we had
come from, that made me go like, oh wow,
life is really long. As you said with
Josephine Baker, we contain multitudes.
It gets used a lot, but for real, the
many lives that you live. She talks
about, oh yes, LSD was a very good
(25:48):
experiment for me to help me break out of
stuff. I was just like, wow, I wish I had
known what a role model you were. Even
still, when you see her now, she's still
stunning, but she's also goofy and just
funny. Oh my god, thanks for inviting me
out, let's take a selfie. Because that's
what we're doing. Just the fullness of
(26:10):
her as a person, because it isn't
necessarily just this intimidating.
Oh, she was indefinitely intimidating.
Of course. But because she had to be. I
have another friend who is a model,
black, dark skinned, had lived in Germany
for quite some time and she's super
intimidating. Part of that is just
because she has seen the most racist,
(26:31):
messed up stuff, being a model, being a
human coat hanger for people who want her
to be this and then say the most
offhanded, disgusting stuff to her. I
mean, just like Grace Jones, I can't
remember the French dude at the modeling
agency that was like, Nobody wants to see
this African, like you're never gonna
work or whatever. And like her entire
life is a testament to what an idiot that
(26:51):
guy was, just because he was French white
and like was 1 of these people who knew
it all. Yeah. Right, and said it to her
face as though he knew it all. Right. And
she was like, oh, you don't know shit and
I'm about to prove it to you with my
entire existence.
Yeah, I mean that's the thing. I mean, I
find that that happens so much. So, so,
(27:13):
so much. Like Viola Davis talks about
that too.
Of people being like, you're dark-skinned
and you're not gonna get a lot of work.
Yeah, like she just wasn't gonna get
anywhere and like she had never, no 1 had
ever seen anyone who would like looked
like her that was doing what she wanted
to do and that was just like, it just was
an impossibility. And you know, and it's
like, Viola Davis? Have you ever seen
(27:36):
this woman? Yeah, woman like on screen to
say words or do anything.
Anything. And it's just, it's mind
boggling to me. But you know, But the
Grace Jones thing was not mind boggling
to me because I grew up with a mom who
really was dismissive about her. We used
to get into like...
Oh, like fights about her? Yeah. Like
nobody in my family ever talked about
(27:58):
her. And in the 80s, she would have been
considered super masculine or super
whatever, purely basically because of her
skin tone, I think.
Well, and so my mom, that's what she used
to say all the time is she's look like a
man. And I was like, she does
not- But all
of our moms come from that era. Like my
mom, like, I can't tell you the number of
times when I came home with my hair like
this, she's like, you have such pretty
hair. At some point she gave up telling
(28:21):
me to straighten it. But I was just like,
you're just from a different generation.
But I think this was the thing that was
so confusing to me because my mom is not
like that.
And so you would have thought she would
have been on board.
Yeah, and so I just didn't get it. And
even now, I still think, you know, I
think she is starting to see her through
the lens of other people, because like
(28:43):
Janelle Monae was just on Colbert talking
about how much she loves Grace Jones. And
I think my mom is slowly
turning. This woman carved out space for
so many people.
Or just is accepting that like, okay,
she's not my thing.
But apparently she's the thing to a lot
of people. But I can see
why people gravitate towards her, which I
think was like a real, because like we
(29:04):
literally would butt heads about it all
the time. And I would be like, I don't
understand what you don't, like this
woman is doing all the things that we
want.
Interesting, right? I always think that
like, now that I'm grown enough to
understand when people have a real
adverse reaction to somebody, like press
into that. What is that? Why is that?
(29:26):
Because it's usually something about,
it's usually she's doing some shit I wish
I did.
Right. Well, that's what I'm saying. So I
was like, what is the, what is the-
She has a confidence I wish I had. She,
you know.
And so I, anyway, so I love, I love
Grace, you know, and I mean, I love all,
There were so many women that were coming
(29:48):
out of, you know, coming into the
zeitgeist at that time that were all like
a little bit zany, a little bit, you
know, like, you know, Ertha was doing
weird ass Shit, you know.
Oh man, Ertha. We haven't even talked
about her yet. Like there's so many
people
that like. Diane Carroll. Yeah. And even
like Diana, who is like, you know, kind
(30:11):
of straightforward in some ways, but also
very, I think she's done a lot to sort of
invert what people's expectations were.
You know, she wasn't like this like
little, like she was mean, but she was
also calculated in a way that- Was
she mean? I never knew that about Diana
(30:32):
Ross.
Well, she cut.
Or was she just like?
She like cut 1 of the Supremes out. Yeah.
You know, and that woman died in poverty.
Oh, shit.
No,
that woman died in poverty. But also, I'm
like, but she was also like 23. Like she
was, you know, like she was- When she cut
her out. Like Diana Ross was
like- Diana Ross was 23 when she did
(30:52):
that.
I don't even know
if she was that old. She might've been a
teenager.
Teenager, so she did that because that's
the way she thought the game needed
to be played. Right, you know, and so I'm
like, so do we really wanna make past
judgment on what people do as teens and
you know, whatever. So you know, it's
like there was just a lot of...
When their brains aren't even done
forming yet.
And also you just don't know what you're
doing. You just don't know what you're
(31:14):
doing.
You are following in the footsteps of
other people until you know enough to
break away from that and go like, they
don't know what they're doing either.
And I'm like, would today's Diana Ross
have done that? Probably not.
Yeah, probably not. But I mean, anybody
who has lived that many years, I mean,
usually people get a lot happier as they
(31:34):
get older. They get a lot more like, oh,
I've been different people. I've seen the
repercussions of different kinds of
actions. So I know, you know, like, and
when you're 20, you're just slashing your
way, like carving out your space in the
world with any tools that you have.
And I mean, I'm not gonna speak for Diana
Ross or any other person, but I know I
(31:55):
was a fucking idiot until like maybe a
month ago. Ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha
ha Goodbye 2022. Ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Goodbye 2022.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha
We are ready to step into our prime.
I mean, yeah.
I mean, along with some of the cultural
figures, I think that I'm really excited
to look into some of the science figures,
like somebody that, you know, I was
(32:17):
really inspired by this past year, which
I post about when I was doing my sort of
campaign on Instagram for British Black
History Month. So they get October and we
get February. So I'm going to try to
cover, but I mean, but they got a 31 day
month, even though they're like, black
history, what, what? It's just like some
(32:37):
sepia toned retrospectives of people who
worked at the BBC, but God bless them,
you know, they're doing whatever. But
like, I'm really excited by, like I
discovered, didn't discover, but I
learned about Dawn Wright, who is known
as Deep Sea Dawn. Who's that? She is the
woman, she's the first woman, she's the
first black person of any gender to go to
(33:00):
Challenger Deep, which is the bottom of
Mariana Trench. So it's a mile lower than
Everest is tall. So like, you know, in
the Pacific, it's like the lowest point
on earth. And she went in a submersible
with a venture capitalist who is a rich
white guy, because that's how you get to
go places a lot of times. But she's the
first person to get down there because
she works for, I think it's called Esri
(33:23):
or whatever, but it's like, she's a
geographer. So she's basically trying to
map the oceans. So you'll see the map of
whatever, but eventually 1 day you'll see
the map of everything underneath that is
the whole world, which is like as close
to space as people who aren't Jeff Bezos
are going to get.
Wow, that's amazing.
So
she's been down to where it's
bioluminescent and where it's just like
(33:45):
there are all of these natural gases
coming through, like places that usually
only James Cameron goes to and then makes
apparently quite traumatizing films I
don't know.
I wouldn't know I
don't know I haven't seen any avatar, but
my friends who just went were like it was
an IMAX and 3d and traumatizing as fuck
So intense so violent Probably not the
(34:07):
same thing that she would say, but like,
you know, there are, you know, the black
women who are, you know, whether it's the
women behind hidden figures or, you know,
more, is it Valerie Thomas who came up
with the photography that allowed the
Hubble telescope to actually take
pictures? Those women who I think we
(34:29):
don't, I'm not a person who's very
STEM-oriented, except for the fact that I
find science quite beautiful as an
artist. And so I'm really curious about
the women who have dedicated their lives
in a lot of obscurity to making this
thing that changes everybody's lives. And
there are so many Black women who have
been so important in that kind of thing
(34:50):
that I just am like, oh, why don't we
know about them at all? Like there are
some people where it's like, you don't
know the whole story. And there are other
people where it's like, you don't know
any story. Like you don't know this
person's name. You don't know what they
look like. You couldn't pick them off of
a milk carton or they're not gonna be up
on your kindergarten wall for Black
History Month. You don't know them and
you really should because they've changed
(35:10):
the way the world works and the work that
they did is the work that typically white
men built their work on and got a lot of
credit for. So like, you know, they are
the very beginning of that pedestal that
lifted so many people up, you know? And I
mean, that's true in culture as well, but
I just feel like there's a lot of Black
female scientists that I'm really excited
(35:32):
to discover and like inventors and stuff
like that.
I remember Ayanna, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I
read her first autobiography and she said
like, there've been no African inventions
in the modern era. And I was like, that
is not true. And I
(35:54):
think- I mean, did she qualify that?
No, because she doesn't qualify anything
with anything because she's that person.
And she said that and I thought, well,
first of all, that's not true, but also
it's like, there are so many African
people who had to leave the place to go
(36:15):
to another place in order to get where
they need it because, you know, the
continent has been ravaged.
Yeah, exactly. Because people came and
destroyed their place and they had to go
somewhere where there was a resource.
Right. Yeah, so it's...
And so, anyway, I sort of like kind of
rabbit-holing. This was years ago that I
read this, and I started rabbit-holing
and finding all of these examples to
(36:37):
prove her wrong. And I've been doing that
for like a decade now.
Do you just DM them to her? Just like,
and another 1,
and another 1. It's just my personal
grievance with this woman that she has no
idea about. Maybe she'll know now because
I'm saying it in public. But like, just
like, just the idea of that just was so
(36:58):
absurd. I was like, the entire continent
of Africa? You think they've contributed
nothing?
That they haven't invented anything.
Right. Or was she saying that like
they've all left Africa to go do things
other places?
No, I think what she was saying was like,
you know, fundamentalists have ravaged
like, you know, the Middle East and North
(37:19):
Africa. And...
She does have a point.
Right, and you know, and that they've
basically have decimated any kind of
intellectual Prowess that would have been
there.
So she was trying to kind of be like,
here's a testament to the damage that's
really been done, not only to the land,
but to the people through that.
(37:39):
Okay. And
I was like, what about music? What about
culture? What about like, what do you
mean by inventions?
Yeah, what, yeah, exactly. I mean,
they haven't built rockets, that's true.
Yeah. You know?
But I mean, I don't know, We're mostly
only building rockets so we can bomb
people from space, right?
But I was like, but there is the you
know, they what does the name of this?
(38:01):
African science project which is a band.
So I was like, you know, we doing
something. But anyway. Yes. I mean, I'm
just trying to think like, oh, you know,
because it's MLK holiday, like someone
who I want to meet maybe in person. I
(38:23):
mean, not in person, but for the podcast.
Yeah, I
like to actually speak to.
So I think I've already talked to you
about my idea for this woman, Jacqueline
Smith.
Tell me about Jacqueline Smith.
So she has been like this 1 woman protest
in front of the National Civil Rights
Museum in Memphis. She's been out there.
(38:44):
This year, I don't know the exact date. I
think in February, she'll have been
protesting for 35 years in front of this,
in front of the Lorraine Motel where Dr.
King was murdered, was assassinated,
because she was the last living resident
of the motel and got evicted and became-
So she
(39:04):
had an ax to grind and a cause to start
at the same time,
which is the perfect dovetail to commit
your life to something.
And was just like, this is not what Dr.
King would have wanted, which I think is
absolutely true. Because it's
glorifying his murderer from the way
you've described it. I've not been there,
but now you're going to get me to go to
Memphis for the first time
in my life so we can
go talk to this woman.
(39:25):
We're going to Memphis to talk to
this lady. Yes. And I mean, I'm saying
we're doing this. I hope we do this. I'm
putting it out there.
Is that what you're
supposed to do?
I think we
should do it. I hope that she wants to
talk
to us
about it. Is that
what The Secret is about?
Yes, yeah, I think so. I haven't read it.
I've only heard about it from 10,000
people.
I just do the, you know, someone told me
this about me once. She was like, you're
like- You're just doing the secret.
(39:46):
Yeah,
she's like, you're like the secret. You
just like say you're gonna do something
and then you do it. It's just like the
secret. And I was like, or it's that I
follow up with the things that I say I'm
gonna do. You do follow through.
And that's not really
a secret. That's just what.
That's just your secret.
That's just what.
You're like, hey Guys, I follow through.
That's what productive people do. But
anyway, in my dream, in my fantasy
(40:06):
podcast, like we have, we go to Memphis
and we talk to this lady and then I make
a documentary about her.
Oh yes, obviously.
And then I win the Academy Award.
For podcasts and documentaries at the
same time? Which apparently is a thing
you can do.
Oh my God, and then I'll be like, what's
(40:27):
the EGOT?
You'll have your PGOT. They should add
1 for P. They should add 1 for P. And
then I only have to do all the other
ones.
You'll only have to get a Grammy, an
Emmy, and a Tony.
And yeah, it'll be a P-Got. Yeah.
I can't. But I'm never gonna stop saying
P-Got now because It makes me laugh. Who
do
you want to talk to besides me? I
(40:50):
mean, I just feel like I'm, well, I'm
really excited because we've been talking
about meeting up with Michelle Coltrane
and the more that I learn about, you
know, her mother and the ashram and
everything, the more excited I am to talk
to her as somebody who saw very
intimately, because she was the first of
the kids, right? She was from a previous
(41:12):
marriage, I think.
I don't know her history that well.
I thought so.
I thought that she was the first of the 4
kids. And so, you know, that like the
firstborn, you know, knows the parents in
a way that like the other ones don't.
Like they got, you know, like they got
the full brunt of
who those people are. I would know I'm
the baby in my family.
We'll have to ask Astrid what her
(41:33):
experience was then.
I'm the least, I know the least. Yeah,
well, no,
I mean, well, also the baby maybe,
depending on how you are as a baby sticks
around the longest like my brother is the
baby, but he stuck closer while the rest
of us went away. So, you know, different
perspectives, but I think every kid gets
a different parent. So I'm excited to see
what her experience was of, you know,
them and of Alice's, you know, music, and
(41:55):
also just her transition into more of a
spiritual path and how that, you know,
the times in which it bled, you know,
the, like, you know, that, the bleed in
between and also, yeah, just generally in
that time. I don't know, I'm always
interested when somebody kind of drops
the rocket boosters of their first life
(42:16):
and then like goes into the next 1 and
what that actually, what that trajectory
looks like because it's often quite
different.
Well, and this is the thing, I mean, like
we, so we're talking about black women
are the Illuminati. This was your-
It was Because we have all the secrets.
We're the ones gluing it together. We're
the ones in the background of a dollar
bill actually being like, I'm here doing
(42:37):
the work.
Right, but my interpretation of that has
always been luminary. Like we are sort of
the- Lighting the way? Yeah, and also
that we are the first, like the sort of,
what's the word I'm looking for? Like
(42:58):
we're always at the forefront of stuff.
Is it tip of the spear or is it canary in
the coal mine?
No, not canary in the coal mine. But like
I so that's kind of how I was when I was
thinking about like who would we want to
like talk about And what do like the
subjects and the people? Mm-hmm. Like I
was like I kind of wanted That to be an
(43:21):
essential thing for for everyone like
that. They were doing something that was
so ahead of Yeah, everyone.
Yeah, even if they are doing it in an
academic space where the wider public
doesn't necessarily find out about it
until later.
Yeah, and that's the stuff that I thought
was just so fascinating. There's a woman,
(43:42):
I don't know her name yet, but I was
looking at some woman the other day who's
doing some kind of cancer research
breakthrough this black woman and I think
she came out of
HBCU I was like, oh my God, what if that
(44:04):
black woman is the 1 in your picture?
She's like, here
you go, I'm just going to
leave this here for everybody. No need to
thank me,
I know you won't. I'm not bitter. Yeah,
exactly.
But I was like, oh, this is amazing. But
like, yeah, a friend of mine posted
something about this woman and I was
like, I need to do a deep dive on this
lady and see who this person is. And
(44:24):
that's the stuff that I thought that we
wanted to illuminate is like all these
different ways in which we are
contributing. Whether we get credit for
it or not, matters less in some ways, but
it's like, I'm just so excited to just
(44:45):
have the conversations about these
people.
Well, speaking of which I would like to
say, of course, for myself, Desiree,
thank you so much for listening. We do
hope that you join us for our next
episode when we speak with Michelle
Coltrane about her mother, Alice
Coltrane.
Who's Alice Coltrane?
(45:05):
I mean, she, well, I mean, I hate to
start with, she was an incredible jazz
musician and composer and also started an
ashram in Los Angeles in the 70s, but
she's famously married to John Coltrane.
But I
hate to always start a woman's
introduction by who her husband was.
No, and you know, she's like, you know,
(45:26):
jazz harpist, which is quite rare.
Which
is so rare. The 1 of the few instruments
I've been so envious of anyone who can
play is the harp.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think we're gonna
have a really good time just kind of
dissecting some of what she's trying to
do because I think so much of her, her
(45:46):
like link to spirituality, like it's just
not really discussed. I mean, I think
people know that it happens, but I knew
that it didn't happen because she died.
But I don't think that, I think That's
the thing that people know probably less
about her than her musicianship.
And I
mean, she's an incredible, and then she
(46:06):
didn't just play with John Coltrane, she
also played with like Pharaoh Sanders.
And, you know, so she's just kind of
gloriously under studied.
Yeah, I mean, maybe there's only so long
you can play a harp before you're
spiritually transported. I don't know.
Ooh, we
should ask that question. We should
definitely find out. I mean, I'm super,
super excited to learn more about her
(46:29):
because she was someone who some music, I
mean, I've been obsessed with for a long,
long, long time. And I actually like her
music more than I like John's music, even
though I like John Coltrane.
You heard it here first. This is Nico
Rosario being contrary in the most
delicious way.
So yes. Okay, that's fine. But also, I
(46:51):
love John Coltrane, and I am a member of
the Coltrane Church in San Francisco. So
I love the Coltranes, all
of them. Yeah, you are on that Coltrane.
And Michelle also is a musician too.
She's a singer.
So
we're gonna get a chance to speak to her
who is probably most up close and
personal to some of that transformation.
Yeah, so
I'm excited.
(47:11):
Yeah, all right. Shall we tell these
people where to follow us?
Yeah, and we have a podcast. We're doing
that right now. We have a podcast.
Okay, look, to keep up with us, be sure
to follow us on Twitter, on Instagram,
and wait, TikTok? Are we gonna do TikTok,
JP?
I didn't know we were on Twitter.
We're so old.
Why do we have to do it? Can I not just,
(47:34):
I don't get grandfathered out of TikTok?
Wait a minute, I didn't know we were on
Twitter.
We're so old, why do we have to do it?
Can I not just, I don't get grandfathered
out of TikTok? Wait a
minute, I didn't know we were on Twitter.
Are we on Twitter?
Well, we will be by the time anybody
hears this. But I thought
we would, I thought we didn't like
Twitter anymore.
I mean, oh, I guess we don't like
Twitter. Well, let's see where
Twitter is when we...
Yeah, let's find out. Okay, so you can
maybe follow us on Twitter. Well, don't
we need to be on Black Twitter though?
(47:55):
I know it's still Twitter, but
it's still gonna exist. I would
just say that I was never on Twitter,
so... So I don't know what... Yeah. Just
to be contrary, which is totally you. You
are a professional contrarian. Okay. So
maybe follow us on maybe Black Twitter.
We'll see where it is. Definitely follow
us on Instagram.
All I'm saying is I was ahead of that
(48:16):
shit before everybody. I was anti-Twitter
before everybody.
If you opt out of any social media, you
are ahead of the curve. It's just a
matter of time. All right, so wait,
what's our Instagram handle?
Black Women are the Illuminati. Thank you
very much. And maybe TikTok, if we
start TikTokking it, probably Black Women
are the Illuminati.
(48:36):
Yeah,
I don't know anything about TikTok. I
mean, neither do I, except for all the
people who are like, you need to be on
TikTok. Okay. But Can any of you guys
just professionally show up, record me
doing whatever, decide what's funny, edit
it, and then put it up there? Thanks.
For more- Oh, wait a minute. And then
we're gonna be on a podcast network,
right?
Yes, we will be. I don't know what to say
(48:59):
about that. I just have the script in
front of me.
Yes, but- In due course.
In due
course, but for more information, please
go to blackwomenaretheilluminati.com. You
know how to spell it if you don't Google
it, okay? You can find more episodes
wherever you listen to all of your
favorite podcasts, of which we hope to be
the top. But anyway, thanks man. Yeah,
(49:19):
thank you.
Thanks
for doing this with me.
Oh my
gosh, I thank you for all of the
wonderful things that are about to
happen, we don't even know yet.
We don't even know yet. Yeah. Except PGOT
2024, we do know that.
All right, all right, We
can do this. I'm on it. Yeah. So
hopefully we'll see you guys again soon.
Yeah. And
(49:39):
we'll talk to other people. Yes. And
maybe not so much about ourselves. Yeah.
So I'm excited.
Yeah. Be back with us. We'll see you
soon.
Okay, bye. Is this the end?
I think so. Bye then. Bye.
All right, we are gonna leave it there
(50:00):
for now, my friends. Thank you so much
for giving us a listen. Black Women Are
the Illuminati is hosted by Nico Rosario
and Desiree Burch, and produced by
Desiree Burch, Hil Hart, Linz Creates,
Nico Rosario, and Jamara Wakefield.
Special thanks to JP Buck for helping to
nurture us into a running start with this
(50:23):
episode, as well as our lovely sound
engineer, Will Beckton at Jet Road
Studios for letting us explode into your
fantastic local studio in Los Angeles. If
you'd like to hear more from us, please
follow us on Instagram at Black Women Are
The Illuminati and sign up for our
mailing list at
blackwomenaretheilluminati.com
(50:44):
or bwatipodcast.com
if you'd prefer not to know how to spell
Illuminati. You can also subscribe to
Black Women Are the Illuminati wherever
you get your podcasts.
Hi there, this is Desiree Birch. 1 half
of your hosting team for Black Women are
the Illuminati. Welcome to our first ever
episode. I just wanted to come on here
real quick to tell you a couple of
things. We recorded this episode back in
January of 2023, when your co-host Nico
Rosario and I were actually in the same
(00:22):
city and not 5,437 miles apart where we
live in London and Los Angeles. You know,
sometimes it takes a little while for
good things to come into being. Thank you
for waiting world. So you are going to
hear some dated references in this
episode, but what we love about it is
that it is a time encapsulated. 2 sisters
(00:45):
in the same room talking about all that
we've been, what we have done, and who we
might become on this journey. We hope you
enjoy it.
Welcome to Black Women Are the
Illuminati.
The podcast that begins with a hypothesis
behind every cultural and social movement
(01:06):
over which a lot of white guys have
shaken hands and slapped backs.
There's a visionary Black woman who was
saying or doing the prototype years
earlier and who has received little to no
credit at all.
We hope to shine a light on these
trailblazers and help y'all bust asses
improve this messed up world. My name is
(01:31):
Desiree Birch and I am a comedian, an
actor, a voiceover artist, a general
layabout who has managed to monetize
that. Oh man.
I'm Nico Rosario, and I don't know what I
do.
You do like everything. You collect
(01:51):
master's degrees and cool stuff that
everybody goes, wait, you studied what?
I did at 1 point collect master's
degrees. That time is over.
Yes, now it's just collecting student
loan.
Yes, now I collect student loan interest.
And I would say I'm an academic and an
educator and a fun seeker and a cultural
(02:18):
critic to a very small number of
people. Of dedicated followers. Nico's
the coolest lady I know.
And I'm a DJ. See? And a writer.
And like a doula. And a doula. And like
What else? You got all this stuff going
(02:39):
on. If there's something happening
anywhere in your town, Nico already knew
about it a week ago and organized an
outing.
That is true. See? That is true. So yes,
all of those things are true. Yes.
Okay.
Okay, so yes, that's me. Okay, Desiree,
my first memory of you is, I'm trying to
(03:01):
think about this, I think we met at
Whitechapel Gallery in London, is that
right?
I don't know because I smoke too much
weed.
I don't smoke any weed, but I...
So you would remember better than I do.
We have a friend named Claire.
Hi, Claire. Hi, Claire.
We have a friend and she was like, my
(03:24):
friend just moved to London and I think
that you would like her and you guys
should be friends. And I said, okay. And
then I think we met at the Whitechapel
Gallery, but I don't think we saw any
exhibits. I think we just sat on a bench
and chatted.
So many times of us hanging out with a
(03:44):
plan, in quotes, and then just talking
for 5 hours in front of the thing that we
were gonna go to?
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what
happened.
Okay, thank you. That sounds about right.
I do remember when we first met, you
know, it was like mid-conversation. Do
you know what I mean? It was like picking
up where we left off in whichever
lifetime we had left off in or whatever.
(04:06):
It wasn't just like, oh, hi, whatever. It
was just like, so anyway, I was saying
blah, blah, blah, and it just continued
on from there. So I think that we should
tell the good people who will eventually
be listening to us, why it is we wanted
to do a podcast together at all. And in
particular, this 1. I think it's
because your ex-boyfriend said you guys
should do a podcast together because
(04:26):
every time- I forgot about that. I just
listened to you guys talk and then he
bought you equipment to make the podcast
and then you didn't do it. Yeah, no, we
didn't do it at that point. Although I
did buy that Zoom, by the way. I bought
that.
Oh, I thought he did.
But you are right. He did say that. He
did go, you guys should really do... He's
predicted quite... He was the 1 who's
(04:47):
like, you should move to London, you do
really well here. I could move to New
York, but I think you should move to
London. He was right about that. He's
right about a lot of things. So he was
right about the podcast. And I was like,
oh yeah, that's right. We were talking
about that way back in Streatham, which
is like, I've lived in so many different
parts of London since then. But then, so
that sort of, like seeds kind of take a
(05:07):
little while to grow, so that's kind of
planted the seed. But I guess like, I
don't know, why this podcast do
you think?
Well, cause initially we had like
thought, well maybe we'll do a podcast
about 2 American Black girls from,
you
know, going to, moving to London. And
(05:27):
then I don't know why we didn't do that.
Maybe that wasn't that interesting.
Yeah, maybe, yeah. Maybe we were just
like, we can do a little bit more.
And then I originally had approached you
because I was wanting to do like an
incubation during the pandemic when I had
nothing to do. I was like, oh, let's like
do this other, this podcast. It was a
version of this podcast called the, what
(05:50):
was it called? The Black Women's History
Project
or something like that.
Something like that, yeah.
Where we would like talk to Black
academics and it's just about their
research and stuff, Black women academics
about their research. So that was kind of
like the seed that we had started. And
then we applied for this like incubation
lab that they didn't give us because, you
(06:12):
know, they were sleeping.
Yeah, They were. Genius. Yeah, they were
sleeping real hard. But yeah, and I also,
I think, because of having done some
other podcasts in my work, in particular,
when I first did the couple, like I did 2
episodes with, of You're Dead to Me,
(06:32):
which is, I'm sorry to promote another
podcast, guys, but it's a really good 1.
It's another history podcast. And I'd
done 1 episode about Harriet Tubman and
another 1 about Josephine Baker with this
academic, Michelle Cressfield, who's
amazing and also American, who works at,
I think, University of Birmingham there.
But I just was, you know, like you kind
of, like, you're an academic, she's an, I
(06:54):
kept coming across and it was like, oh
yeah, black women go and like study all
of these things and keep the records and
bring the stories forward. And there's
like a long history of that. And why not,
why not like spotlight that they're doing
that and also the subjects that they're
talking about at the same time. And
there's kind of this like, I don't know,
it's just something about like the
(07:15):
generational feeding of that, like the
ancestry of that. There's something about
that that's really kind of like witchy
and cool to me in a way that I wanted to
see play out.
And I think also Black women look for
subjects and they look for things that
are just not available and they have to
(07:35):
do it because there is no 1 else to do
it. So I think that was like why I was
initially anyway focused on like the
academic realm because I was like, how
many stories would we just have never
ever gotten if someone hadn't said, I
wanna know more or why is there an
(07:58):
absence? So that was what I thought was
kind of interesting.
Did you feel that way? I mean, you
studied, amongst other things, rave
culture. Did you feel when you were going
down that road that like, did you get to
a place where you went, oh wait, If I
don't look into this, no 1 else is gonna
come looking for it.
(08:19):
Well, I think what happened, so I was
studying in rave, and what I realized
when I was looking at these rave laws
that were, or dancing laws that were
happening in New York, at the time, when
dancing was still illegal, which has now
finally been reversed. All of those laws
(08:40):
were steeped in bigotry and racism. They
were all like cabaret laws that were set
up to discriminate against black people
in particular. And so there were people
that were looking at it and there were
people who were interested in that, but
they were never really looking at it from
the point of view of this is a racist
(09:03):
narrative that has now has been turned
into public policy that now we are still
reeling from. It wasn't necessarily like
couched in that language in the same way.
Some people were looking at different
aspects of it through racism, like Billie
Holiday would be an example of how we
(09:23):
knew that there was this racist angle and
they were using the cabaret laws to
silence her. And then they made that film
that kind of talks about that. So that,
but again, that was maybe not every
single historian or whoever is gonna be
Black because there are still pockets of
(09:44):
people that, you know, like we're, we
might have a subject who's black, who's
interesting to us, and there is no black-
And
the expert on that is a non-Black person.
Yeah, there's just no Black person for
that. And, you know, so that's the other
challenge of the, what, you know, the
conceit of what we're gonna do. But I
think that all of that is still kind of
an interesting way to shape how we're
(10:08):
going to do this podcast.
Yes. For me, I feel like I need to do
this podcast because it is an important
part of my spiritual, psychological
growth to be looking at everything and
everyone who came before who has
contributed to who I am and the world
that I live in and the legacy that I
probably should be working a little bit
(10:29):
harder to carry forward or that I maybe,
hopefully, God willing, will become a
part of 1 day. So I feel like it's, you
know, for me, it feels like a spiritual
endeavor as much as it feels like a
professional 1 to have a podcast. But I
just, to me, I need to know these stories
(10:51):
and I know myself if I don't make it work
then I won't do it so I'm like let me
start to go and find these stories not
only of what we know about these women
but what we don't know that we should
know about these women.
Exactly, I mean, my thing is, is 1 of the
things I didn't list on my list of things
is an archivist.
(11:14):
And
I'm really, or I'm not necessarily an
archivist myself, but I'm more so like an
archival advocate.
Yeah. You're the 1 who told me like, you
need to be archiving your work. And I was
like, well, I got a butt ton of voice
memos of sex. Is that something?
But that is something, you know, and, You
know, I did 2 different presentations at
(11:36):
conferences, 1 of them with the British
library. And that was the thing that kept
coming up was like, people don't think
that what they're doing is interesting or
that other people want to know it. But as
a rave researcher, for instance, when I
was looking at a very specific thread of
(11:56):
like, did rave music change between this
period and this period because of the,
what is it, the laws? I can't remember
the name of the law right now. And 1 of
the things that I was looking for was
flyers to see who were the people who
were DJing in 1994? Were they the same
(12:16):
people that were DJing in 1995? And 1 of
the things that was really cool was a lot
of people had recordings where they would
go to a rave and they would record hours
of the music.
And
you could kind of see, and I was like,
see, this is what I'm saying. They didn't
say, I'm saving this for prosperity
because someone will eventually want to
(12:39):
do research on this. I mean, they were
just like, I want to listen to this music
again. But that's the thing, that's how
archives start. And also, it's like,
there are so many people who get erased
from the conversation or erased from the
space because they don't save their work.
(13:00):
And no 1 knows that they were there
because the people who care about being
there and being seen there, they make
sure that you fucking know that they were
there. And you know, so-
Yeah, and
they usually
aren't as good as the people who don't
make sure that they, you know, they were
there.
Exactly. They're
just the people who are good at being
like, hey, I'm doing this thing. I mean,
it's basically like, and I'm doing that,
(13:20):
I'm doing that unless someone else has
recorded them. It's like, and I'm also
doing this. And it's
like, do
we care?
And that's what I'm saying. And so it's
like you, and so what happens is women,
not just Black women, but women are like,
I don't want to brag about what I do
because I think that that makes me look
stupid or whatever. So
we don't. Better at
Cella-bragging ourselves.
Yeah, and then, you know, like men
(13:43):
fucking self-cite everything that they
do. Yeah. Like, there's lots of studies
about how many times men self-cite their
own research. It's like IBID underneath
in the footnotes, they've cited their own
thing that they just said
3 pages earlier. Exactly, it's like
fucking insane. And like women don't ever
do that ever. And so it's like, so that
(14:06):
was my impetus would be like, save your
fucking shit, save it all, put it
somewhere.
I've got a wall of shit.
Yeah, save it.
Thanks a lot, Nico.
Good. Be a fucking hoarder, I don't care.
I mean, but like- Trunks of shit. Do it
because that's the only way it's gonna
get preserved. Because no 1 gives a shit
(14:27):
about preserving your shit. And like, So
you have to do it yourself. And then
that's fine to do it yourself. But I
mean, I think that is partially why I'm
like, here's a document, here is an
archival activity that we can do to say,
this person was here, this is what this
(14:48):
person is doing, this is what we found
out from the archive of this person or
whatever. And I think that that is really
cool. Like Aretha Franklin didn't get to
decide whether or not we saw the Amazing
Grace documentary. And she was actively
trying not to have that released. It was
(15:09):
an active litigation at the time that she
died. And literally a month after she was
dead,
the niece was like,
Let's put it out. And it's not because I
think that they were trying to be shitty
to her, but they were like, this is a
cultural moment that we have captured.
That you were at in your finest hour,
(15:31):
even though you don't see it
that way. It's beyond you at this point
in your decision. We deserve to share
this with the world. And I mean, so I
watched it.
Who's right in that situation?
No 1
is right. She made
it, or she channeled it
at least. This is, it's very discerning.
I mean, like this, what's the word?
(15:51):
Disconcerting? Yes, disconcerting to me
that like, someone like Aretha Franklin
didn't have a handle on her own legacy.
Yeah, at the very end of her life too.
Like she didn't get the final say of no
respected.
Right. But did I, am I glad I saw that
documentary? Absolutely. Absolutely.
Because I never would have been able to
(16:14):
see her perform in the seventies in that
way. And it was a moment in time that
like, so I mean, and I'm not complicit by
watching it because I know that she
didn't want it to be released. So how am
I, what is my relationship to that? But
like, that's a different conversation,
But like, you know, at the end of the
day, it's like, I just wanted, I want
(16:38):
whoever feels that something isn't
interesting or important or whatever, I
want them to feel emboldened to be like,
but it is, it's who I am. And it could be
of use to someone else. And so save it
and archive it and leave it to you, leave
(16:58):
your stories to your family members,
leave your, whatever it is, place it
someplace that it can be found again.
That's all I, that's kind of what I'm
always asking. Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think, and well, I guess
this is Very, very useful in what we're
talking about in terms of perspectives,
(17:19):
because I think as far as the strengths
that you bring to this podcast and to
what we're trying to do, is that
investigative kind of like, let's look
for the story beneath the story and let's
preserve the parts of this person that
society might be more willing to ignore
because there are more convenient
(17:43):
narratives for us. I mean, I don't know
if we wanna talk about the fact that
we're actually speaking on Martin Luther
King Day and talking about the duality of
the narrative about him. There is a
narrative that is a safe social narrative
in which we talk a lot about him and his
work, but we don't actually read his work
or focus on the speeches that were about
(18:05):
unions and about supporting
counterculture and about, you know, how
active and how aggressive nonviolence is
actually. It's not a passive resistance.
Nonviolence, you know, really sinks down
to the core and it's really about like
sticking the wrench inside of the gears
of the machine by not responding to that.
(18:26):
And there's so many parts that we don't
talk about, about Kim in particular. And
I feel like 1 of your strengths and what
I'm really interested in doing with this
podcast is to get the other story of a
person. I mean, we contain more than even
2 stories, but if you wanted to simplify
(18:47):
it, there is, you know, there's the story
of who we think we are and who we want to
be. And there's the story of who
everybody else knows and actually sees,
right? There's at least 2 stories of us
and there's probably so many more. And I
think that 1 of the many things that you
bring aside from just like, you know, a
loving perspective and that high pitch
(19:09):
cackle that you make that just brings me
joy and like the very deepest Zen sense
of the word is that respect and that
attention to, you know, duality and
story. And also just being able to be
like, contrary in general and be like,
you know that thing everybody likes? I
don't like that thing. I feel like your
favorite thing to do. And I was like,
(19:31):
okay, let's strap in. It's not
my favorite thing to do is what happens.
It's what every time though, like just
you're, everybody's like chocolate chip
cookies are great and you're like, fuck a
chocolate chip cookie.
Exactly. With this peanut butter.
With this peanut butter.
With this peanut butter.
With this peanut butter.
It's a shit.
You see
what I mean?
So that is what I think, that's just what
I love as part of working with you on
(19:52):
this, is that you're gonna be like peanut
butter forever.
Except for a snickerdoodle. Anyway. Okay,
yes. But, No, but I think the reason that
I wanted to do the podcast with you in
particular is because like you're not
afraid to be like, that is bullshit. And
then you have to like call me on my, and
(20:15):
which is great because so many people
don't do that. So many people are just
like,
they're like, I guess you're right,
or whatever.
And they don't necessarily even think I'm
right about it, but they'll be like,
whatever you say, but you're not
abrasive.
Well, I'm not afraid to call bullshit on
you because I love you.
(20:35):
But no, but you're not abrasive about it
because there's a way to be like, I don't
know that I agree with that. And it's
like an argument, you know? Sure. And I
mean, and that's kind of why, you know, 1
of the, well, I mean,
I
think that you're a diplomatic person in
general anyway, but it's also like, so
there's 2 things I would say that I think
(20:56):
were really exciting about doing the
podcast with you is that we can have a
discussion and we don't necessarily agree
on stuff and we can kind of go back and
forth,
which
I think is the most exciting thing is
being able to go back and forth with
somebody. And also to be like, oh, now
that you say it that way, maybe I don't,
(21:17):
maybe I'm
not so tied. Talking with you is that
I'll be like, that's bullshit, and I'll
argue this other side of the thing, and
then I'll go home, and then I'll be like,
no, no, I see it.
Yeah, you know, and the same with me, and
then also, you usually just say, you
usually say yes to.
To too many things, Nika.
(21:37):
Too many things, but what I guess what
I'm saying is like, you're always like,
that seems cool, that seems interesting.
How do I do more? Like, how do we do
that? Like, what is it thing? You know,
because you have this like genuine
curiosity that's not necessarily about
knowing everything, you know, to know it
all, but you do want to know and you have
(22:00):
that deep sense of wanting to know. Which
that is a rarity. So many people don't
give a shit. They don't wanna know
anything.
La la la la
la la la. And also, they've never thought
about it. It's never occurred to them
that there is something to think about.
About
in that thing.
It's
like, oh, I just thought that was the
thing. Yeah. And you're not like that.
(22:20):
You're always like, that's never the
thing. The thing, that's 1 of the sides
of the thing.
But
there's all these other sides of the
thing that I want to know more about.
There's always more underneath. There's
always more. There's always something
like, who is a figure, since the theme of
our podcast is Black women, I would hope
it would be a black female figure, that
(22:41):
you admire, somebody that gives you life?
Well, okay, so 1 of the people we
actually talked about being maybe like
the grandmother of the, or the godmother,
the fairy, like dead godmother is
Josephine Baker because like, she just
had like all these lives.
Yeah, yes.
Where she did all these things that like,
(23:02):
I didn't even know, like she was like a
spy and she had like a thousand adopted
kids.
She had a menagerie of animals and
children. She like Angelina Jolie did,
she Michael Jackson did. And then she
did, who was a famous international spy?
Josephine Baker. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's like, what the fuck? So like,
and then I'm like, how did I not know
(23:23):
this until like 6 months ago? But then I
called you and you were like, girl, I was
on a podcast talking about her.
Because I had just done that podcast.
Which we're excited to do this.
Yeah, but
that's what I'm saying. And it's like, so
here's a figure, here's a woman that we,
I thought, 1 note lady. You know, like
this is the story is she wears banana
(23:43):
skirts.
Yeah, that's the story. She did this
banana dance. She was hot. She was a hot
Black lady at a time where people were
like, oh my goodness, is that a thing,
that hot black lady? Ooh. And then, of
course, as many notable black people did,
she moved out of America so she could do
some stuff, which I definitely can relate
to. So many people just like, I gotta get
(24:04):
out of here so I can at least have the
freedom to think thoughts that might
actually happen.
Yeah, I
mean, that's the thing. And so it's like
for me, she was kind of like in the
background of my mind, like someone I
thought was really just fascinating. But
I'm trying to think of someone who's
currently living.
(24:26):
Well, I mean, obviously 1 of the people
we want to talk about is Grace Jones, who
for me is somebody that I admire the more
that I learn about her and her journey.
Like I never realized, you know, like I
knew her, I guess the first time I would
have seen her was probably in James Bond,
you know, because of the time. You 2
attend? Yes, because of the time in which
I grew up, you know, and then I, you
(24:46):
know, like she was always definitely, it
was definitely like, I mean, I didn't
know about the model stuff until after I
had seen that. I knew her as an actress,
so I didn't know about her being a model
until then after that. I didn't know
about her being a singer until well after
that, you know, and then learning more
about like, you know, she came from a
very fundamentalist background and like
that was something that I could
(25:07):
immediately relate to as well as her
reaction from that. And the fact that it
was like her gay brother that made her
kind of break. Cause like, you know, it
was just sort of like everyone's like,
oh, you can't do this. You can't be in.
He was in the choir, you know, like doing
the whole thing when you're black and gay
and can't be out. And it was like that.
She was like, okay, I went to the clubs
with him and supported him. And then like
(25:28):
we both brought each other to the place
that we needed to be out of where we had
come from, that made me go like, oh wow,
life is really long. As you said with
Josephine Baker, we contain multitudes.
It gets used a lot, but for real, the
many lives that you live. She talks
about, oh yes, LSD was a very good
(25:48):
experiment for me to help me break out of
stuff. I was just like, wow, I wish I had
known what a role model you were. Even
still, when you see her now, she's still
stunning, but she's also goofy and just
funny. Oh my god, thanks for inviting me
out, let's take a selfie. Because that's
what we're doing. Just the fullness of
(26:10):
her as a person, because it isn't
necessarily just this intimidating.
Oh, she was indefinitely intimidating.
Of course. But because she had to be. I
have another friend who is a model,
black, dark skinned, had lived in Germany
for quite some time and she's super
intimidating. Part of that is just
because she has seen the most racist,
(26:31):
messed up stuff, being a model, being a
human coat hanger for people who want her
to be this and then say the most
offhanded, disgusting stuff to her. I
mean, just like Grace Jones, I can't
remember the French dude at the modeling
agency that was like, Nobody wants to see
this African, like you're never gonna
work or whatever. And like her entire
life is a testament to what an idiot that
(26:51):
guy was, just because he was French white
and like was 1 of these people who knew
it all. Yeah. Right, and said it to her
face as though he knew it all. Right. And
she was like, oh, you don't know shit and
I'm about to prove it to you with my
entire existence.
Yeah, I mean that's the thing. I mean, I
find that that happens so much. So, so,
(27:13):
so much. Like Viola Davis talks about
that too.
Of people being like, you're dark-skinned
and you're not gonna get a lot of work.
Yeah, like she just wasn't gonna get
anywhere and like she had never, no 1 had
ever seen anyone who would like looked
like her that was doing what she wanted
to do and that was just like, it just was
an impossibility. And you know, and it's
like, Viola Davis? Have you ever seen
(27:36):
this woman? Yeah, woman like on screen to
say words or do anything.
Anything. And it's just, it's mind
boggling to me. But you know, But the
Grace Jones thing was not mind boggling
to me because I grew up with a mom who
really was dismissive about her. We used
to get into like...
Oh, like fights about her? Yeah. Like
nobody in my family ever talked about
(27:58):
her. And in the 80s, she would have been
considered super masculine or super
whatever, purely basically because of her
skin tone, I think.
Well, and so my mom, that's what she used
to say all the time is she's look like a
man. And I was like, she does
not- But all
of our moms come from that era. Like my
mom, like, I can't tell you the number of
times when I came home with my hair like
this, she's like, you have such pretty
hair. At some point she gave up telling
(28:21):
me to straighten it. But I was just like,
you're just from a different generation.
But I think this was the thing that was
so confusing to me because my mom is not
like that.
And so you would have thought she would
have been on board.
Yeah, and so I just didn't get it. And
even now, I still think, you know, I
think she is starting to see her through
the lens of other people, because like
(28:43):
Janelle Monae was just on Colbert talking
about how much she loves Grace Jones. And
I think my mom is slowly
turning. This woman carved out space for
so many people.
Or just is accepting that like, okay,
she's not my thing.
But apparently she's the thing to a lot
of people. But I can see
why people gravitate towards her, which I
think was like a real, because like we
(29:04):
literally would butt heads about it all
the time. And I would be like, I don't
understand what you don't, like this
woman is doing all the things that we
want.
Interesting, right? I always think that
like, now that I'm grown enough to
understand when people have a real
adverse reaction to somebody, like press
into that. What is that? Why is that?
(29:26):
Because it's usually something about,
it's usually she's doing some shit I wish
I did.
Right. Well, that's what I'm saying. So I
was like, what is the, what is the-
She has a confidence I wish I had. She,
you know.
And so I, anyway, so I love, I love
Grace, you know, and I mean, I love all,
There were so many women that were coming
(29:48):
out of, you know, coming into the
zeitgeist at that time that were all like
a little bit zany, a little bit, you
know, like, you know, Ertha was doing
weird ass Shit, you know.
Oh man, Ertha. We haven't even talked
about her yet. Like there's so many
people
that like. Diane Carroll. Yeah. And even
like Diana, who is like, you know, kind
(30:11):
of straightforward in some ways, but also
very, I think she's done a lot to sort of
invert what people's expectations were.
You know, she wasn't like this like
little, like she was mean, but she was
also calculated in a way that- Was
she mean? I never knew that about Diana
(30:32):
Ross.
Well, she cut.
Or was she just like?
She like cut 1 of the Supremes out. Yeah.
You know, and that woman died in poverty.
Oh, shit.
No,
that woman died in poverty. But also, I'm
like, but she was also like 23. Like she
was, you know, like she was- When she cut
her out. Like Diana Ross was
like- Diana Ross was 23 when she did
(30:52):
that.
I don't even know
if she was that old. She might've been a
teenager.
Teenager, so she did that because that's
the way she thought the game needed
to be played. Right, you know, and so I'm
like, so do we really wanna make past
judgment on what people do as teens and
you know, whatever. So you know, it's
like there was just a lot of...
When their brains aren't even done
forming yet.
And also you just don't know what you're
doing. You just don't know what you're
(31:14):
doing.
You are following in the footsteps of
other people until you know enough to
break away from that and go like, they
don't know what they're doing either.
And I'm like, would today's Diana Ross
have done that? Probably not.
Yeah, probably not. But I mean, anybody
who has lived that many years, I mean,
usually people get a lot happier as they
(31:34):
get older. They get a lot more like, oh,
I've been different people. I've seen the
repercussions of different kinds of
actions. So I know, you know, like, and
when you're 20, you're just slashing your
way, like carving out your space in the
world with any tools that you have.
And I mean, I'm not gonna speak for Diana
Ross or any other person, but I know I
(31:55):
was a fucking idiot until like maybe a
month ago. Ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha
ha Goodbye 2022. Ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Goodbye 2022.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha
We are ready to step into our prime.
I mean, yeah.
I mean, along with some of the cultural
figures, I think that I'm really excited
to look into some of the science figures,
like somebody that, you know, I was
(32:17):
really inspired by this past year, which
I post about when I was doing my sort of
campaign on Instagram for British Black
History Month. So they get October and we
get February. So I'm going to try to
cover, but I mean, but they got a 31 day
month, even though they're like, black
history, what, what? It's just like some
(32:37):
sepia toned retrospectives of people who
worked at the BBC, but God bless them,
you know, they're doing whatever. But
like, I'm really excited by, like I
discovered, didn't discover, but I
learned about Dawn Wright, who is known
as Deep Sea Dawn. Who's that? She is the
woman, she's the first woman, she's the
first black person of any gender to go to
(33:00):
Challenger Deep, which is the bottom of
Mariana Trench. So it's a mile lower than
Everest is tall. So like, you know, in
the Pacific, it's like the lowest point
on earth. And she went in a submersible
with a venture capitalist who is a rich
white guy, because that's how you get to
go places a lot of times. But she's the
first person to get down there because
she works for, I think it's called Esri
(33:23):
or whatever, but it's like, she's a
geographer. So she's basically trying to
map the oceans. So you'll see the map of
whatever, but eventually 1 day you'll see
the map of everything underneath that is
the whole world, which is like as close
to space as people who aren't Jeff Bezos
are going to get.
Wow, that's amazing.
So
she's been down to where it's
bioluminescent and where it's just like
(33:45):
there are all of these natural gases
coming through, like places that usually
only James Cameron goes to and then makes
apparently quite traumatizing films I
don't know.
I wouldn't know I
don't know I haven't seen any avatar, but
my friends who just went were like it was
an IMAX and 3d and traumatizing as fuck
So intense so violent Probably not the
(34:07):
same thing that she would say, but like,
you know, there are, you know, the black
women who are, you know, whether it's the
women behind hidden figures or, you know,
more, is it Valerie Thomas who came up
with the photography that allowed the
Hubble telescope to actually take
pictures? Those women who I think we
(34:29):
don't, I'm not a person who's very
STEM-oriented, except for the fact that I
find science quite beautiful as an
artist. And so I'm really curious about
the women who have dedicated their lives
in a lot of obscurity to making this
thing that changes everybody's lives. And
there are so many Black women who have
been so important in that kind of thing
(34:50):
that I just am like, oh, why don't we
know about them at all? Like there are
some people where it's like, you don't
know the whole story. And there are other
people where it's like, you don't know
any story. Like you don't know this
person's name. You don't know what they
look like. You couldn't pick them off of
a milk carton or they're not gonna be up
on your kindergarten wall for Black
History Month. You don't know them and
you really should because they've changed
(35:10):
the way the world works and the work that
they did is the work that typically white
men built their work on and got a lot of
credit for. So like, you know, they are
the very beginning of that pedestal that
lifted so many people up, you know? And I
mean, that's true in culture as well, but
I just feel like there's a lot of Black
female scientists that I'm really excited
(35:32):
to discover and like inventors and stuff
like that.
I remember Ayanna, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I
read her first autobiography and she said
like, there've been no African inventions
in the modern era. And I was like, that
is not true. And I
(35:54):
think- I mean, did she qualify that?
No, because she doesn't qualify anything
with anything because she's that person.
And she said that and I thought, well,
first of all, that's not true, but also
it's like, there are so many African
people who had to leave the place to go
(36:15):
to another place in order to get where
they need it because, you know, the
continent has been ravaged.
Yeah, exactly. Because people came and
destroyed their place and they had to go
somewhere where there was a resource.
Right. Yeah, so it's...
And so, anyway, I sort of like kind of
rabbit-holing. This was years ago that I
read this, and I started rabbit-holing
and finding all of these examples to
(36:37):
prove her wrong. And I've been doing that
for like a decade now.
Do you just DM them to her? Just like,
and another 1,
and another 1. It's just my personal
grievance with this woman that she has no
idea about. Maybe she'll know now because
I'm saying it in public. But like, just
like, just the idea of that just was so
(36:58):
absurd. I was like, the entire continent
of Africa? You think they've contributed
nothing?
That they haven't invented anything.
Right. Or was she saying that like
they've all left Africa to go do things
other places?
No, I think what she was saying was like,
you know, fundamentalists have ravaged
like, you know, the Middle East and North
(37:19):
Africa. And...
She does have a point.
Right, and you know, and that they've
basically have decimated any kind of
intellectual Prowess that would have been
there.
So she was trying to kind of be like,
here's a testament to the damage that's
really been done, not only to the land,
but to the people through that.
(37:39):
Okay. And
I was like, what about music? What about
culture? What about like, what do you
mean by inventions?
Yeah, what, yeah, exactly. I mean,
they haven't built rockets, that's true.
Yeah. You know?
But I mean, I don't know, We're mostly
only building rockets so we can bomb
people from space, right?
But I was like, but there is the you
know, they what does the name of this?
(38:01):
African science project which is a band.
So I was like, you know, we doing
something. But anyway. Yes. I mean, I'm
just trying to think like, oh, you know,
because it's MLK holiday, like someone
who I want to meet maybe in person. I
(38:23):
mean, not in person, but for the podcast.
Yeah, I
like to actually speak to.
So I think I've already talked to you
about my idea for this woman, Jacqueline
Smith.
Tell me about Jacqueline Smith.
So she has been like this 1 woman protest
in front of the National Civil Rights
Museum in Memphis. She's been out there.
(38:44):
This year, I don't know the exact date. I
think in February, she'll have been
protesting for 35 years in front of this,
in front of the Lorraine Motel where Dr.
King was murdered, was assassinated,
because she was the last living resident
of the motel and got evicted and became-
So she
(39:04):
had an ax to grind and a cause to start
at the same time,
which is the perfect dovetail to commit
your life to something.
And was just like, this is not what Dr.
King would have wanted, which I think is
absolutely true. Because it's
glorifying his murderer from the way
you've described it. I've not been there,
but now you're going to get me to go to
Memphis for the first time
in my life so we can
go talk to this woman.
(39:25):
We're going to Memphis to talk to
this lady. Yes. And I mean, I'm saying
we're doing this. I hope we do this. I'm
putting it out there.
Is that what you're
supposed to do?
I think we
should do it. I hope that she wants to
talk
to us
about it. Is that
what The Secret is about?
Yes, yeah, I think so. I haven't read it.
I've only heard about it from 10,000
people.
I just do the, you know, someone told me
this about me once. She was like, you're
like- You're just doing the secret.
(39:46):
Yeah,
she's like, you're like the secret. You
just like say you're gonna do something
and then you do it. It's just like the
secret. And I was like, or it's that I
follow up with the things that I say I'm
gonna do. You do follow through.
And that's not really
a secret. That's just what.
That's just your secret.
That's just what.
You're like, hey Guys, I follow through.
That's what productive people do. But
anyway, in my dream, in my fantasy
(40:06):
podcast, like we have, we go to Memphis
and we talk to this lady and then I make
a documentary about her.
Oh yes, obviously.
And then I win the Academy Award.
For podcasts and documentaries at the
same time? Which apparently is a thing
you can do.
Oh my God, and then I'll be like, what's
(40:27):
the EGOT?
You'll have your PGOT. They should add
1 for P. They should add 1 for P. And
then I only have to do all the other
ones.
You'll only have to get a Grammy, an
Emmy, and a Tony.
And yeah, it'll be a P-Got. Yeah.
I can't. But I'm never gonna stop saying
P-Got now because It makes me laugh. Who
do
you want to talk to besides me? I
(40:50):
mean, I just feel like I'm, well, I'm
really excited because we've been talking
about meeting up with Michelle Coltrane
and the more that I learn about, you
know, her mother and the ashram and
everything, the more excited I am to talk
to her as somebody who saw very
intimately, because she was the first of
the kids, right? She was from a previous
(41:12):
marriage, I think.
I don't know her history that well.
I thought so.
I thought that she was the first of the 4
kids. And so, you know, that like the
firstborn, you know, knows the parents in
a way that like the other ones don't.
Like they got, you know, like they got
the full brunt of
who those people are. I would know I'm
the baby in my family.
We'll have to ask Astrid what her
(41:33):
experience was then.
I'm the least, I know the least. Yeah,
well, no,
I mean, well, also the baby maybe,
depending on how you are as a baby sticks
around the longest like my brother is the
baby, but he stuck closer while the rest
of us went away. So, you know, different
perspectives, but I think every kid gets
a different parent. So I'm excited to see
what her experience was of, you know,
them and of Alice's, you know, music, and
(41:55):
also just her transition into more of a
spiritual path and how that, you know,
the times in which it bled, you know,
the, like, you know, that, the bleed in
between and also, yeah, just generally in
that time. I don't know, I'm always
interested when somebody kind of drops
the rocket boosters of their first life
(42:16):
and then like goes into the next 1 and
what that actually, what that trajectory
looks like because it's often quite
different.
Well, and this is the thing, I mean, like
we, so we're talking about black women
are the Illuminati. This was your-
It was Because we have all the secrets.
We're the ones gluing it together. We're
the ones in the background of a dollar
bill actually being like, I'm here doing
(42:37):
the work.
Right, but my interpretation of that has
always been luminary. Like we are sort of
the- Lighting the way? Yeah, and also
that we are the first, like the sort of,
what's the word I'm looking for? Like
(42:58):
we're always at the forefront of stuff.
Is it tip of the spear or is it canary in
the coal mine?
No, not canary in the coal mine. But like
I so that's kind of how I was when I was
thinking about like who would we want to
like talk about And what do like the
subjects and the people? Mm-hmm. Like I
was like I kind of wanted That to be an
(43:21):
essential thing for for everyone like
that. They were doing something that was
so ahead of Yeah, everyone.
Yeah, even if they are doing it in an
academic space where the wider public
doesn't necessarily find out about it
until later.
Yeah, and that's the stuff that I thought
was just so fascinating. There's a woman,
(43:42):
I don't know her name yet, but I was
looking at some woman the other day who's
doing some kind of cancer research
breakthrough this black woman and I think
she came out of
HBCU I was like, oh my God, what if that
(44:04):
black woman is the 1 in your picture?
She's like, here
you go, I'm just going to
leave this here for everybody. No need to
thank me,
I know you won't. I'm not bitter. Yeah,
exactly.
But I was like, oh, this is amazing. But
like, yeah, a friend of mine posted
something about this woman and I was
like, I need to do a deep dive on this
lady and see who this person is. And
(44:24):
that's the stuff that I thought that we
wanted to illuminate is like all these
different ways in which we are
contributing. Whether we get credit for
it or not, matters less in some ways, but
it's like, I'm just so excited to just
(44:45):
have the conversations about these
people.
Well, speaking of which I would like to
say, of course, for myself, Desiree,
thank you so much for listening. We do
hope that you join us for our next
episode when we speak with Michelle
Coltrane about her mother, Alice
Coltrane.
Who's Alice Coltrane?
(45:05):
I mean, she, well, I mean, I hate to
start with, she was an incredible jazz
musician and composer and also started an
ashram in Los Angeles in the 70s, but
she's famously married to John Coltrane.
But I
hate to always start a woman's
introduction by who her husband was.
No, and you know, she's like, you know,
(45:26):
jazz harpist, which is quite rare.
Which
is so rare. The 1 of the few instruments
I've been so envious of anyone who can
play is the harp.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think we're gonna
have a really good time just kind of
dissecting some of what she's trying to
do because I think so much of her, her
(45:46):
like link to spirituality, like it's just
not really discussed. I mean, I think
people know that it happens, but I knew
that it didn't happen because she died.
But I don't think that, I think That's
the thing that people know probably less
about her than her musicianship.
And I
mean, she's an incredible, and then she
(46:06):
didn't just play with John Coltrane, she
also played with like Pharaoh Sanders.
And, you know, so she's just kind of
gloriously under studied.
Yeah, I mean, maybe there's only so long
you can play a harp before you're
spiritually transported. I don't know.
Ooh, we
should ask that question. We should
definitely find out. I mean, I'm super,
super excited to learn more about her
(46:29):
because she was someone who some music, I
mean, I've been obsessed with for a long,
long, long time. And I actually like her
music more than I like John's music, even
though I like John Coltrane.
You heard it here first. This is Nico
Rosario being contrary in the most
delicious way.
So yes. Okay, that's fine. But also, I
(46:51):
love John Coltrane, and I am a member of
the Coltrane Church in San Francisco. So
I love the Coltranes, all
of them. Yeah, you are on that Coltrane.
And Michelle also is a musician too.
She's a singer.
So
we're gonna get a chance to speak to her
who is probably most up close and
personal to some of that transformation.
Yeah, so
I'm excited.
(47:11):
Yeah, all right. Shall we tell these
people where to follow us?
Yeah, and we have a podcast. We're doing
that right now. We have a podcast.
Okay, look, to keep up with us, be sure
to follow us on Twitter, on Instagram,
and wait, TikTok? Are we gonna do TikTok,
JP?
I didn't know we were on Twitter.
We're so old.
Why do we have to do it? Can I not just,
(47:34):
I don't get grandfathered out of TikTok?
Wait a minute, I didn't know we were on
Twitter.
We're so old, why do we have to do it?
Can I not just, I don't get grandfathered
out of TikTok? Wait a
minute, I didn't know we were on Twitter.
Are we on Twitter?
Well, we will be by the time anybody
hears this. But I thought
we would, I thought we didn't like
Twitter anymore.
I mean, oh, I guess we don't like
Twitter. Well, let's see where
Twitter is when we...
Yeah, let's find out. Okay, so you can
maybe follow us on Twitter. Well, don't
we need to be on Black Twitter though?
(47:55):
I know it's still Twitter, but
it's still gonna exist. I would
just say that I was never on Twitter,
so... So I don't know what... Yeah. Just
to be contrary, which is totally you. You
are a professional contrarian. Okay. So
maybe follow us on maybe Black Twitter.
We'll see where it is. Definitely follow
us on Instagram.
All I'm saying is I was ahead of that
(48:16):
shit before everybody. I was anti-Twitter
before everybody.
If you opt out of any social media, you
are ahead of the curve. It's just a
matter of time. All right, so wait,
what's our Instagram handle?
Black Women are the Illuminati. Thank you
very much. And maybe TikTok, if we
start TikTokking it, probably Black Women
are the Illuminati.
(48:36):
Yeah,
I don't know anything about TikTok. I
mean, neither do I, except for all the
people who are like, you need to be on
TikTok. Okay. But Can any of you guys
just professionally show up, record me
doing whatever, decide what's funny, edit
it, and then put it up there? Thanks.
For more- Oh, wait a minute. And then
we're gonna be on a podcast network,
right?
Yes, we will be. I don't know what to say
(48:59):
about that. I just have the script in
front of me.
Yes, but- In due course.
In due
course, but for more information, please
go to blackwomenaretheilluminati.com. You
know how to spell it if you don't Google
it, okay? You can find more episodes
wherever you listen to all of your
favorite podcasts, of which we hope to be
the top. But anyway, thanks man. Yeah,
(49:19):
thank you.
Thanks
for doing this with me.
Oh my
gosh, I thank you for all of the
wonderful things that are about to
happen, we don't even know yet.
We don't even know yet. Yeah. Except PGOT
2024, we do know that.
All right, all right, We
can do this. I'm on it. Yeah. So
hopefully we'll see you guys again soon.
Yeah. And
(49:39):
we'll talk to other people. Yes. And
maybe not so much about ourselves. Yeah.
So I'm excited.
Yeah. Be back with us. We'll see you
soon.
Okay, bye. Is this the end?
I think so. Bye then. Bye.
All right, we are gonna leave it there
(50:00):
for now, my friends. Thank you so much
for giving us a listen. Black Women Are
the Illuminati is hosted by Nico Rosario
and Desiree Burch, and produced by
Desiree Burch, Hil Hart, Linz Creates,
Nico Rosario, and Jamara Wakefield.
Special thanks to JP Buck for helping to
nurture us into a running start with this
(50:23):
episode, as well as our lovely sound
engineer, Will Beckton at Jet Road
Studios for letting us explode into your
fantastic local studio in Los Angeles. If
you'd like to hear more from us, please
follow us on Instagram at Black Women Are
The Illuminati and sign up for our
mailing list at
blackwomenaretheilluminati.com
(50:44):
or bwatipodcast.com
if you'd prefer not to know how to spell
Illuminati. You can also subscribe to
Black Women Are the Illuminati wherever
you get your podcasts.
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