Episode 04: Underland Build Team (Glenn & Jim)

Episode Transcript
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Stevan (00:00):
A Bonzaar.
Welcome to everyone.
This episode we'll look back at theUnderland, effigy and Temple build
from 2024 and 2023, and to talk aboutthe more memorable erection stories.
We have three, we have two inspiringand amazing burners with us here.
Uh, why don't you guys introduce yourself?
We've got Glen and, and Jim with us.
Um, hi guys.
Yeah,

Jim (00:20):
Hey there.
Hey, Stevan.
It's great to be on.
Um, so my name's Jim and I was the,uh, effigy, uh, build, lead, and design
lead for, uh, Underland this last year.
Oh,

Stevan (00:32):
what was the name of the project, Jim?

Jim (00:34):
So the effigy was called the Pobblebonk, so it was, uh,
yeah, inspired by the local fauna.

Stevan (00:40):
Yeah.
We'll get more into that.
Hey Glen.

Glenn (00:42):
Hello?
Uh, yeah, my name is Glen.
I also go by the Moniker Flamewriter, and I, I've been doing,
uh, fire sculpture since 2013.

Stevan (00:52):
And you, you helped with the temple, the Nautilus
Temple in 2023, is that correct?

Glenn (00:57):
Uh,

Stevan (00:58):
yeah.
Yeah.

Glenn (00:59):
There's a, a quite a collective approach, uh, to that one.
And I did the carving that was up the top.
Um, but yeah, biggerpicture with that one.
Um, the underland community's been doinga lot of work, um, in mentoring, um, new
people and getting more people involved.
Um, so yeah, I was doing someof the work of, of trying
to, um, support that process.

Stevan (01:18):
Okay.
Let's get now the, my favorite part islistening to people's origin stories,
their background, how they got, how theyfound about, about the culture, how they
discovered it, how they discovered thecommunities as well, the art community.
Uh, what are your origin stories, Jim?

Jim (01:32):
Yeah.

Stevan (01:32):
How did you get involved?

Jim (01:33):
Um, so I guess.
I got involved with Burns.
Well, yeah, the burning culture throughCamp Kraken was the camp I first joined
and that was through some mutual friendsand friends of friends who I met at.
I think, you know, I got the invitation'cause I went to a friend's house.

(01:54):
Or a friend of a friend's house andshe was trying to sew some dragon
costumes to take to Burning Manfor the first time or second time.
And I was like, what is Burning Man?
And she's like, it's this thing.
I wanna make these costumes.
And I helped her do that.
This was my friend Sammy, and then whenshe got back from Burning Man, then
she, she invited me to join Camp Krakenat Rainbow Serpent for the first time.

(02:17):
And that was the firsttime Camp Kraken was there.
And I just remember the experience ofthat was kind of like just walking in.
I'd only just moved to Melbourneand so it was like walking into this
theme camp of like 40 new friends.
And I just needed to learneveryone's names, but everyone
was like immediately friendly andyeah, it, I just kind of loved the.
So that camp famous,

Stevan (02:38):
famous for its, uh, sub submarine.

Jim (02:41):
Yeah.
So the submarine got built, oh, I can'tremember what year that was, but yeah.
Um, a few of the guys in the crew decidedone year that they wanted, we wanted to
have a, they wanted to build an art car.
And so then we built the submarineand that went from like, you know,
the first design ideas being like thisdinky little trolley thing and then

(03:01):
becoming this massive ordeal on the ute.
And I've often done a lot.
I

Stevan (03:07):
I even, I even remembered you guys towing it.
I, I even remembered you guystowing all the way to Blazing
Swan to the, to the West Coast.

Jim (03:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We were lucky enough toget it over there one year.
Um, we, the, the thingdoesn't move very well.
You have to like put it on the backof a flat back to get it anywhere.
You know, if we'd really thought aboutlongevity, we would've made it packed
down onto a container or something.
But yeah, we took it over to Blazing Swanand had like the best time with that.
I remember one morning, like, yeah, andwe have like a, there's a lot of high

(03:35):
tech, well attempted high tech stuff init with cameras to like show you where
you're going and all that sort of stuff.
But my favorite way to drive it is stilljust to have one person standing out
the front and you can see out this tinylittle hole and you just follow the A on.
It felt like every time we, we did campkraken and we reinvented it every year.

(03:57):
So we like, you know, one year wefound a whole like pink bar and plush
decor in a, in a Skip in the city andwe pulled all that out and created
the Pink Flamingo another year.
We had like a whole set ofstairs from an old theater piece.
We created a cabaret bar for that.
And then we got the submarine andthen we built Bouys and a Jetty and we

(04:21):
had a huge setup at, at Burning Seed.
I think that was probably,um, my memory is terrible for
what years these all happened.
I'm sorry.
But, um, yeah, and then taking it toblazing was, I think I got drive it the
fastest it it's ever been, which was
down Desert Road to thealong edge of the, but yeah.

(04:44):
So, but yeah, so that I, I kind oflike just dived in with the admin
and creativity and that sort ofjumping on and everyone else's ideas.
And then separately to Burns, I gotinvolved with like, uh, sculpture building
art pieces at Rainbow Serpent and thenBabylon and Strawberry Fields with a

(05:06):
another collective of friends and artists.
And yeah, we were getting on areally good sort of momentum there.
Building.
Yeah, we built like agiant eagle one year.
We built a sea dragon.
We built a temple space at, we built.
A stage, stage at, um, atStrawberry Fields and yeah, getting
really good momentum of that.

(05:26):
But then COVID happened and all ofthat sort of stopped in the ground.
And so, but I was always keen to likekind of combine those two experiences
and build something to burn.
So yeah, that's why when, yeah, I'd neverhad, I'd never done a build at Burning
Seed, but then at Underland two years ago,23, I saw a post from Axel, I think it was

(05:48):
being say, at like a last minute call outthat he needed a few people on the team.
And, um, I was, luckily I hada few weeks spare, so I just
jumped on board and said, yep.
And so then I became part of that,that crew to do the, um, the rain
moth and the Nautilus temple.
I spent most of the timeon the effigy, on the moth.

(06:08):
Um, yeah.
And then that was a, a great time.
Yeah.
Really inspiring.
And then at the end of the,um, end of that experience.
The word kind of ran around, as Glennmentioned, they were really encouraging
like fresh blood or fresh ideas, freshpeople to come in and lead the builds or
support, you know, designs in any way.

(06:30):
And yeah, I just kind of, I got theinspiration for the pobblebonk, or
I had had an idea of doing this frogafter one night is doing the build.
I dunno if you want me to go into thatfull origin story there, but yeah.
So three, we

Stevan (06:44):
can talk about it later.
Yeah.
It's fascinating.

Jim (06:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stevan (06:46):
We can, we can talk about your, your, your 2024 build and
your lead and your leadership andyour, the, the idea behind it.
Yeah, for sure.
How about you?
What's your.
What's your origin story, origin story?
How'd you get involved?

Glenn (06:59):
Well, back in, uh, 2011, there was this phenomenon going on, uh, called 1111.
It's a bit like the Y 2K bug, andthere's a bunch of people that
actually believe that, uh, 2011 on11th 11, some portals gonna open up.
Although this would be, and Imisunderstood the festivals based on this.
I thought it'd be a bunch of funto watch a heap of people thinking

(07:20):
that the portal's gonna open.
And then I looked at a lot ofthe, um, materials coming out.
They really resonated, um, with my values.
I, I, I do and was doing at thetime, a lot of community activism.
Um, so there was a lot of anarchistand um, uh, you know, uh, socialist
theories, uh, based on Burning Man.
So I was, all right, we'll give that a go.
So I didn't find the 1111 call.

(07:40):
I found another one.
And then, uh, watched the Man Burn thatyear and I just brought back my childhood.
Um, fire was my favoritetoy, uh, besides Lego.
And yeah, it was just quitea powerful experience.
So yeah, that was really,uh, special for me.
Uh, and now fast forward afew years and, um, there was
a talk at a co-working space.

(08:01):
I was working out and, uh, thecaptain, Justin McGhee came to
try to recruit, uh, artists.
And I was working on a piece for try topitch to Rainbow and um, I looked at it,
well, we could just burn the thing, right?
So we pitched it and then, um, they saidit wasn't quite suitable for the location.
Uh, it would've worked reallywell in a desert environment.

(08:21):
So I redesigned it, um,based on sort of feedback.
Um, and the fire creep, specificallyRusty at the time was very supportive of
new people and ideas and yeah, so sortof, uh, those type of people that really
build this culture and, and the artwork.
And um, yeah.
So I did my first burn, um,which was exciting and yeah.

Stevan (08:41):
That was, did you say your first band, first seed?
Was it

Glenn (08:44):
Uh, so my first one was 2013.
Yeah.
Burning Seed.
Yeah.
On Thursday night they opened itup for me, um, to do a small burn.

Stevan (08:53):
And, and your journey in, into building effigies or building art, uh,
you were quite in, in terms of leading thecommunity, of, of building an art burn.
That was 2018, was that right?
Or 17 at Burning Seed?

Glenn (09:07):
Um, uh, no, 2015.
Uh, I did the effigy, however, thatwas, um, I was quite naive to building
at the, and there was a team buildingunder me and also on top of me.
So as a creative director, uh, I didn'thave a lot of control, but enough
control would obviously do my vision.
And then, then it wasn't until thefollowing year or the following

(09:29):
year, I actually went to PineGap, uh, to resist the, um.
Industrial that's in thecenter of our country.
So I was unable to participate.
So then in 2017 I did forest rising.
Um, and again, thanks to Rusty andthe fire support crew, they opened
up Friday night for another burn.
And what was really exciting about thisis that we could move away from all
the dogma, those around the effigy.

(09:51):
At the time there was a lot of Americandogma, um, rules, a lot of, um,
even aggression, how things should.
Blah, blah, blah.
So we could just get, get away from that.
Um, yeah, and it was really good'cause then we could also look
at, um, things like lifecycle.
There's a bunch of things we're told thatwe couldn't do as far as building and,
uh, sourcing materials and sustainability.

(10:12):
And so we just did it and reallyfocusing on a concept of, um, removing
all the toxins so that we can returnash to fertilizer back to the lands.
Yeah.
So we did, did a bunchof work in that way.
So yeah, forest rising wasprobably the first, um, time I was
leading a crew on thousand seven.
Uh,

Stevan (10:30):
would you like to see more art burns happening,
like pre-temple or pre effigy?
I think it's a good thing.

Glenn (10:34):
Ah, ah, most definitely.
So the big issue is the safety.
Obviously we need very extensive safety.

Stevan (10:41):
Which means more volunteers for perimeter and

Glenn (10:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And also, uh, also the, uh, leads as well.
All your safety leads, you know, they'revery specialized skill, experience people,
so that means I've gotta be, you know,sober on the tools from far longer.
Um, so ideally we have a Friday, but wejust don't have the resources for that.
As we did burning Seed.
We have also discussed the conceptof having a bunch of smaller

(11:06):
ones within the same perimeter.
So maybe we have small, uh, six moreeffigies and that way we can have, you
know, really good incubator for peopleto be able, you know, do new stuff.
So yeah, the Underland communityis really open to things.
Um, you know, it takes a lot of resourcesof people to support this stuff.
So I think the communityis still a bit young.

(11:26):
We're doing a lot of work around this.
Um, but as I think we build, becausethe foundations and the cultures
here, so, you know, I think we cando some really exciting things and I
think we can also just stop, followany of the dogma, um, that they have
in America about, about this artwork.

Stevan (11:40):
Yeah.
You mentioned previously aboutthe getting new blood in, getting
new people and new ideas in.
I guess some of the hurdles isthat it is dominated by, by men.
This, uh, the work, I guessit's more, more labor intensive.
So how do we get more people involvedthat has, from different backgrounds and
different even skill sets, uh, what arethe minimum requirements, do you think?

Jim (12:03):
Uh, I'd say minimum requirement is just.
Enthusiasm, you know, and acommitment for projects really.

Stevan (12:09):
Trade wise.

Jim (12:10):
Trade wise, it's like you can learn, you know, like you can learn how to use
tools, you can learn how to cut wood.
You know, it's like, yes, you need,like, you might, depending on the design,
like of something, you might need, likea minimum level of fitness to like be
able to pick stuff up or put stuff down.
But even then, like if you're workingwith, you know, different, different

(12:33):
abilities, there's always some aspect ofthe team that you can get involved in.
You know, I think, yeah, likedefinitely like the hands on stuff
on site, you need, you know, it's, Ithink one of the biggest hurdles is.
People available to kindof go site for a build.
But that's why, you know, I don't think mybuild was the best example of this because

(12:57):
I'd rushed everything quite the last,but doing, if you can plan it so it can
be built over weekends, like, you know.
And you have a space here in the city,then people can kind of just come in for
a few hours, you know, every, each week oryou know, a weekend, a month or something
like that to kind of spread that load out.
And then as long as you have a mixof experiences, I think I was really

(13:23):
lucky to have, you know, some verytalented and experienced builders.
And then there were some who werejust enthusiastic and then, you know,
and we were all, and you know, I wasusing techniques that a lot of my team
hadn't used before, so it was just amatter of being open to teaching people
and just like having the patience todo that I think is really important.

(13:44):
Do you agree with that, Glenn?
Like it's kind of, you know, I thinkthe most important part of making it
an inclusive space is more about themindset of the people who are, you know,
invited or who are invited to lead it.
Yeah.
Patience, tolerance and enthusiasm.
That'd be my

Stevan (14:02):
What other soft skills do you think, uh, managing a team?
Yeah.
Talking to people share, showing yourvision, like exp illustrating your vision.

Jim (14:10):
Yeah, definitely having a vision.
Um, I guess each project would bekind of, I guess the culture of each
project is gonna be colored by the, thepersonalities of the people leading it.
So yeah, I was the creative, I wasthe creative director and the build
lead kind of for, for my projects.
So, and I'll be honest that that wasprobably mostly just because I spent

(14:33):
most of the time planning it in my headrather than going out and finding the
team until maybe six weeks before theevent, just because, you know, my life
didn't gimme a capacity before then.
But I think, yeah, having people that helpcan help you, like plan out the process.
So being at, if you have, if you'venever done a build before, there

(14:55):
are people in the community whowill help you, like break it down.
Like you have, like you, you know,you might have like the back of a
napkin sketch of what your idea is.
And then they can kind of riff on thatand like ask the right questions to get
you to think about the structure of itand what the internals are gonna be.
And like it'll justthrow up more questions.
But then there's more, thereare many people in the community

(15:17):
who will help you answer those.
And then, yeah, the soft skillsI think is, yeah, just sort of a
patient patience, willingness tocollaborate and to not change your
ideas, but like to workshop your ideas.
So you're gonna learn things as you go.
You're gonna have to figure stuffout on the fly a little bit.
So having that sort of flexibility.

(15:38):
Yeah.
But I think

Stevan (15:40):
maybe not to, maybe not to fall in love with your project too much.
I guess it's some outside criticism so youcan actually see it from different eyes.

Jim (15:50):
Definitely.
Definitely.
And I think there, you know, I thinkthis is a lesson that I taught from.
Working with Axel and Glenn on 20th 23,effigy was as well, was like, you'll
have a big crazy vision of what youwanna do, but then really pare it back
as well and think about like what isthe minimum you need to get it done.

(16:10):
And then if you have that kind of scaleof like the bare minimum and then the
big amazing everything that gives you alot of grace to then have time to breathe
when and to time to work with and like,be flexible with the team you've got
on the ground when you get to the sitebecause you know shit's gonna happen.
It's either gonna rain some days orsome idea's not gonna work or you

(16:35):
know, you might not have, you know,you might underestimate how long
something's gonna take to build.
And so if you've got that sort offlexibility that can make everything that
you're achieve beyond that bare minimuma lot more enjoyable because you're not
busting your balls to kind of create,you know, this Taj Mahal sort of space.
You're kind of.
You've created the base, and then ifyou have time and energy to do more,

(16:58):
then you're just playing on it, youknow, and you're riffing on it and
you're just like, oh, what about that?
And what about that?
Well, this could be cool, you know?
And it becomes a lot more playful,which I think is really important.
You know,

Glenn (17:10):
it also means you don't burn your crews out if you are a
good, uh, good inspiring people.

Jim (17:14):
Yeah.

Glenn (17:15):
Because they were volunteers.
And we've gotta respect that andhave a lot of love for our people.

Jim (17:18):
Definitely.
I think that's really true.
You know, and I think, yeah, somethingI learned as well is yeah, that kind
of empowering people in the team tokind of like, take care, you know?
It's kind you Yeah.
As the lead.
You're, you're kind of this,you're fluctuating between Yeah.
Like inspiring Joker and like SlaveMaster sometimes, you know, of like,

(17:39):
there might be a job that is, youknow, that is repetitive or whatever.
And I always felt really bad being like.
Panels here, but if you do it in away that's like, you give ownership
to people, you know, I had, by the endof the build, I had some of the guys
on my team who were just like, nah,I'm taking one off and redoing it.

(17:59):
I'm not happy with it.
And if they're making that call, thenI'm just like, go for gold, you know?
But I'm not gonna be comingaround busting someone's falls on,
you know, those sort of minor details.
But I'm sure there were some minordetails I got people to redo, but

Stevan (18:11):
yeah, you gotta be flexible.
Yeah, exactly.
So Glenn, why, why do you think it's,it's, besides the issue of being, it
being a male-dominant profession, likebuilding stuff, but what, what other
things like that's, uh, you know,trying to get new blood, new people in.
What are some of the issues.

Glenn (18:29):
Uh, well for me it's culture.
'cause the, the issue is really,it reflects the Australian trades.
Most of this work we do requiretradespeople to, to support.
We do need some of them solid skills.
And, you know, the Australianindustry, although changing
is slow and, and pretty crap.
Now, as Jim said, we canteach a lot of these skills.
I mean, we do need somebase, um, skilled people.

(18:49):
Um, so where to move in thiscontext is actually to create
spaces that allow diversity.
So if you're looking at race diversity,then you would go, well, what, how
do we create a safe space for people?
Of, of that diversity so that theyactually feel comfortable coming in,
they feel safe, you know, a lot oflessons learned from gender diversity,

(19:10):
um, and, and the trans community.
Like how do we create a spacewhere they feel that they can
come and be safe and feel welcome?
Because if we don't do that,then's just not gonna come.
And then if we make it safe fortrans people and people of color,
then you know, then we're makingit a safe space for everybody.
Um, and I think, you know, we're, we'reformally a collective in doing this work,
but we're gonna start formalizing thiswork to really put in systems in, in

(19:34):
place so that we can deal with issues,we can deal with, um, potential minor
conflicts when we do have diversity.
So, um, then we can actuallysay to someone, well, you're
welcome and we actually mean it.
Not just because tick, we're actuallydoing work make people feel welcomed.

Stevan (19:53):
Should we take a quick look at the historic and symbolic
meaning of effigies and Temples?
Uh, because you talked about, youmentioned, um, David Best Glenn Yeah.
And the history behind that.

Glenn (20:04):
Yeah.
I think anyone that's interested intemples, uh, needs to, uh, listen to some
of, uh, David's, uh, work, uh, talks.
There's a specific one you cansearch, which is artist Talk with
David Best and the Temple Crew.
Um, and I was reallyinspired, um, two things.
His lifecycle, I mean, he was reallychampioning, um, reuse, um, materials and

(20:26):
reducing, you know, new, new materials.
But his original temple was dealingwith suicide in his community.
So he, um, was using the process tobring people together to be able to talk
about emotions, especially men, um, insomething that's really deep, and then
create a safe space to, um, express ouremotions or to process our emotions.

(20:46):
So that's wonderful.
And, and then, um, I would then jumpto like my, um, his, my, my ancestry
of the European tradition of Solstice.
Effigies.
Wickerman.
Now, I haven't done a lot of researchin that area, but I'll be keen to,
but even before then, I mean, there'ssuch a primal human connection.

(21:07):
The seasons, you know, we can onlydo this in winter, you know, the
connection to the earth and, and fire.
And then also with the actualman, the burning man, you know,
the ephemeral nature of life.
You know, you've got this strong manstanding proud one day, next day's ashes.
And I think there's something toalways remember in, in my life is that,
you know, I'm standing strong today.

(21:27):
You things change really quickly.
So it.
Give thanks.

Stevan (21:34):
There's also the, the history of, uh, witchery and, and I guess
spells in terms of, uh, effigiesand stuff, stuff like that as well.
In terms of a history there, therehas been, uh, different cultures
interpret different ways as well.

Glenn (21:47):
Yeah.
The thing that I'm also reallyinterested in is ex, is to, to develop
partnerships with First Nations.
Uh, they have a fascinatinghistory with fire on this country.
You know, I can, I can explore theEuropean tradition, but I can't explore
that, uh, without the Right, right.
People and frameworks.
But yeah, like Fire is such a major, um,part of First Nations culture, and I'd

(22:11):
just really love to see more of that.

Stevan (22:13):
And how do you think that's connected in terms of the burner culture?
How, uh, how is it theimportance of effigies and
temples in the burner culture?

Jim (22:21):
Um, yeah.
I guess for me, I'm, I'mbe honest, I haven't.
Delve into the books or the podcastsor the theories, um, of other people.
But I'm definitely more, I guess,the experiences and things that
I've spoken to people about.
So, you know, going to like the powerof a burn, you know, when everyone

(22:45):
is gathering and, and partying, youknow, or, you know, gathering at,
at the site and then, you know, aneffigy is such a focal point of it.
And then, and you know, when theman burns or the effigy burns, it's
such a huge release of excitement.
You know, it was a really, youknow, for someone like, you know,

(23:07):
I come from a, like a prettysecular background, you know?
And so it's been the most closestkind of like religious experience I'd
probably say I've ever had in termsof like rich ritual on that scale.
And having done it in, you know,a few on three continents, it's.
How well that leg, how similar thatfeels like across the experience and

(23:29):
then, yeah, and just, I, we mighttalk about temples later, but like
the, the focal like, or I guess likethe contrast between the energies of
like the effigy burning and that sortof like ecstatic release and then the
solemn sadness and like, you know, whena temple is done well, how powerful

(23:51):
of a space that can be in its silence.
Um, not only when it's burning, but whenyou visit it, like throughout the event.
Um, I've had some of the, you know,like I've had such beautiful cathartic
times at temples and I think, and that'sjust like such an embodied experience.

(24:12):
I think it speaks to a lot of, I, youknow, I don't wanna say it's like, yeah,
it a religious experience, but it's like,it's that group shared experience that you
can only have at certain amounts of scale.
You know, when everyone gathers,um, with the right intentions,
it can be a really beautiful,beautiful thing to witness and of,

Glenn (24:30):
yeah, I mean, although the Americans think they, they invented this,
uh, phenomena, they actually grabbed alot of, um, traditional religious ceremony
that's ancient, um, in this context.
Um, and so we can sort of make it verysterile or we can really tap into that.
Yeah, definitely.
Um, the latter

Jim (24:47):
and it's, yeah, it's, this is, this might sound a egotistical, but I
share a story of like, my experience.
Effigy having built and burned the effigythis year at Underland because, yeah, I
guess the talking about like every timeI'd gone to a burn before that you kind
of have the focus of the festival goinginto that and then it burns and it kind

(25:11):
of explodes out into the festival andthen everyone is like on this high and it
felt for the first time kind of leadingand building one and then burning it.
I'm sure this is probably a sharedexperience for a lot of people who've
built effigies or led the bills oneffigies, but I felt really, I felt
almost personally shattered and burnt,you know, at that time, you know?

(25:33):
So that was a really, yeah, powerfuland strange, a new experience, you know,
um, which gave me a lot more, I guess itgave me a different perspective compared
to what I'd experienced before where Ithought it was just all fun and games.
Like it was a lot more powerfulthan I expected to kind of have
built that and then given it away.

(25:53):
To everyone on the paddock,you know, it was, yeah.

Stevan (25:58):
Most, most of the effigies I've experienced in Australia, or I've seen in
New Zealand is that we don't usually burnan establishment figure or a man figure.
We are more connected to the country,the community, or the, the land.
So, uh, we, we burn sortof like in, in modifyre.
We, we, we burn insects.

(26:19):
We, they burn beetles andgrasshoppers and stuff like that.
So, uh, underland, you guys burnfrogs and moths and stuff like
that as well, which is, you know,native to the, to the environment.
So that's what I love about it.
And, and in that sense, you, you canreally look I guess, more vast in
terms of what the natural stuff thatwe have here and appreciate it more.
So Yeah.

(26:40):
And seeing and, and seeing all these,uh, all these builds, definitely.
It's just amazing.

Jim (26:44):
Yeah.
I think there's something a bit,I don't know, it feels a bit more
organic and it feels a bit more Yeah.
Based.
Where we are seeing those kind of, yeah,the animals and the insects come through.
Yeah, it was, yeah.
I got really inspiredby like the landscape.

Glenn (27:06):
More increase our diveristy, the more that, we'll, we have far
more rich expression to continue thistradition, which is something that
I find quite exciting and sort ofinspirational for some of our work.

Jim (27:16):
Absolutely.

Stevan (27:17):
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, one, one great example, whileshe's not here, um, we supposed to have
her on, uh, she's not feeling well,but Aruna from her per, from her, I
guess background, her Asian kind ofSoutheast Asian background, kind of
using that to inspire and showing adifferent landscape for Underland.
And in a way it actuallyfits into the landscape of it

(27:40):
because it is about diversity.
It is about all these peoplethat's, that's in the community.

Jim (27:45):
Definitely.

Glenn (27:46):
Yeah.
I mean, and there's a lot of, uh, emotioncontinuing on what, uh, Jim was saying.
There's a lot of emotion in the crew.
Um, the crews work really hard.
They're, they're working as a family.
They're living and workingtogether, um, in the build.
So it's a very specialtime and, um, experience.
And then, yeah, when the thingsburn, it is quite emotional.
So one of the things I try todo is try to recruit people

(28:07):
as much as possible into this.
So, you know, I had a, a, a person, um, Iinvited them to play some music at one of
the burns, and she had this just amazingexperience and just raving about it to me.
And I sort of, while I'm working, sortof forget that, but then I always try
to remind myself like, this can be bigfor people to just try to bring as many

(28:27):
people in as we can to, to do somethingor participate in some way because then
they're emotionally, um, invested in it.
Right?
And then when it burns, it's sortof, they play their role in it.
So yeah, be really looking formore creative ideas to try and
get more people, uh, involved.
Um, and I know, um, Pete, um, fromBurning Man, a wonder person, he,

(28:48):
uh, encourages everyone to gather astick when they come to the fire, um,
when he does his opening ceremony.
And that's a very great technique,um, that brings everyone in for

Jim (28:57):
definitely.
And I think, yeah, casting wide nets for.
For participation at lots ofdifferent levels for age, gender,
diversity, and lived experiences.
What as well?
Because I think the reason, you know,you want these structures to have
meaning in them and the only way youknow, and that has to be given to it

(29:20):
to them by the people who build them.
And yeah, if we're giving everyonekind of like a creative freedom to
build something that means somethingto them, then you're gonna have more
powerful experiences, I guess, ratherthan if you're just like, oh, it has to
look like this, or it has to look likethat, or it has to be built this way.
Like we can really change, youknow, all of, you know, that can

(29:44):
all be on its head, you know, kind.
Yeah, it's, Aruna is not here tonight.
But yeah, her temple was absolutelystunning, you know, and I loved like
the, the complexity of the simplicityof it, you know, and yeah, it, you

(30:05):
know, calling back to her roots andher culture was just so beautiful.
Okay, that's so much power.
So it was a real pleasurefor the two of us
each project this year and supporting.
For time, first time it was,um, an absolute, yeah, absolute
pleasure to be working with her.

Stevan (30:26):
Well, from someone looking from the outside in, I saw you guys
like, while you're building ownstructures, you guys were having
fun and I saw that and it was great.
You know, it's, it's not just, uh,working every day, like 12 hours
shift or whatever you guys do.

Jim (30:40):
Definitely.
Yeah.
It was so much fun.
You know, it's also about having fun.
I mean, we had verydifferent work processes.
I think, you know, Arun had had a designkind of from New Year's Eve that she'd
been working on and chipping away outkind of, you know, a weekend a month.
Whereas I sort of had an ideain my head, but I don't think
I put pen to paper until Yeah.

(31:01):
Like I was saying, like six,six weeks out or something.
But yeah, then we were just both ableto record up a few times at the pub
and just, you know, brain dumped oneach other about what we were doing
and how it was working and who we'retalking to and what do we need.
And so yeah, it was a greatsupport sort of network.
And then, yeah, and then once we wereon site, it was just so inspiring

(31:23):
to kind of, you know, be focused.
We'd each be focused on our ownbuilds or like, I would be focused
on my build there all the time.
And then you'd look across and like, youknow, something has gone up on the effigy
or, you know, at the end of the day, likeeach, you know, we'd switch over for,
we'd have like some morning smoko andwe'd switch between going and visiting

(31:45):
each other, each other's space each day.
And yeah, it was just great to catch upwith each other and the teams to all be
working with each other because you know,the site pretty small at that stage,
it's just like effigy and site crew.
So yeah, we become a really big family.
Um.

Stevan (32:12):
Glenn, you wanna talk about some of the support networks or the support
things that, uh, people when they, when,when they want to do a build or something?

Glenn (32:20):
Yeah.

Stevan (32:20):
What's available?

Glenn (32:21):
Yeah.
Well, we're basically just makingall this up as we go along,
which has its pros and cons.
Um, so previously it was more peoplethat had solid skills and experience
that was doing this, so that restrictedus down to the trades people,
which generally meant trades men.
So what we're, we're trying to do isgather the people with skills, and it
depends on who's available when, and,and we're sort of juggling it around.

(32:44):
But we've got sort of a crew ofpeople that sort of work on this
stuff that have built together, youknow, and now we're gonna recruit Jim.
Um.
And, um, hopefully, you know,he'll be able to help mentor
as well, the next person.
So it totally depends on thetime and when people come in.
And we really have to also do bigshout out to the, the, the amazing Axel
who's a highly skilled artist and, um,tradesman, um, but loves supporting

(33:09):
people and like Rocket Fast on sketch up.
And so he, he personally does abunch of support to, to move things.
Um, so that, that's really exciting.
And there are other peoplein the, in the crew.
So the idea of what we're doing at themoment is rather than having some system
where like doing a call out, like whowants to get involved, what do you got?

(33:30):
And so there may be an establishedcrew that has skills come in
and go, we wanna do it this,and we're gonna do it this way.
We go like, fine, let's do that.
Or it might be somebody who goes,oh, I don't really have much idea.
I've got enthusiasm.
You know, so we can talk to them about,you know, what support they need.
Um, and then we most likelywill have to be able to scaffold
something around to support them.

(33:50):
So, yeah, we're making up as we goalong, but we do have people around.
We do have skills, we do have enthusiasm.
Um, yeah, so let's see, uh, whocomes back on what ideas they
have and, and that sort of thing.

Stevan (34:01):
Um, I remember the last, um, info session you guys had, you guys talked
about the, the commence commencementsof the build six months away from
the burn date and two weeks on site.
Is that correct?
What are the logistics orwhat are the details involved?

Glenn (34:18):
Uh, okay.
So you've, well, basically you need,uh, well, you're gonna build it out
of, um, you're building a structure.
Um, so you also need it tonot fall over and be safe.
Um, so we've been reallychampioning, um, really using our
materials, sourcing our materials.
Um, so for example, when we built the,uh, uh, the first underland, um, emu.

(34:40):
There was this rotten, there was this, uh,old sharing shed that had been demolished.
And, uh, the owner was aboutto burn it, and literally most
of the stuff was rotten away.
And we just pulled, pull out bitsof wood that were rotten and stuff.
And then by the time we put them, uh, ascladding, it was this beautiful textures
like this, the, the hard bits wereable nail in, and then all the, all the

(35:00):
Roddy bits sticking out the other side.
And, um, it was just abe beautiful texture.
And, um, maybe Jim can talk to himabout this, but, um, you know, sourcing
materials really leads the way.
Um, so then how are you gonna source 'em?
Where you gonna source them from?
Where you gonna store 'em?
How you gonna get 'em to site?
So things like site, we usually hire atruck collaboratively, the organization,
or you may wanna source them locally.

(35:22):
Now kitchen, uh, is usuallydone by the, um, crew.
Um, what other logisticsdo I have to think about?

Jim (35:28):
Yeah, so I guess, yeah, like once you have your design, like I had a
design that I sort of built based on.
The materials I wanted to build itwith, which was like natural timbers
and these, and the planks, and then youkind of, from that, you can work back
and figure out how it's gonna be built.
So for mine, I couldn't do anyprefabrication before we got to site.

(35:51):
The only thing I could do waslike, prepare the materials.
So I had like, you know, two trucks worthof pallets that I had to pull apart.
So yeah, you've gotta, you mighthave to organize workshops to do
that and spaces to do that andspace to store that before you go.
I know Aruna was able to do a lot of herpaneling, like was able to like pre-build

(36:14):
many, a lot of the panels for the temple.
So that was what, you know, what she andher team were doing on like the monthly
sort of workshops through the year.
Yeah, gathering materials is a bigthing and then figuring out it's got,
well, I mean, if it can be interactingabout your ideas, like, yeah.
So pulling in the, the skills.

(36:36):
For inter activities.
So yeah, like I had like the puppet idea,you know, which originally I was just like
that lonely happened on the burn night.
But then as we were building it, my,my dear friend Mark, who's an extremely
talented, oh my God, everyone shouldhave a German carpenter on their
build because they're just ridiculous.
Yeah.

(36:56):
He was just like, you know, tell methe idea, tell me your preferences.
And then I'd walk away and comeback and he's just like, made
this, you know, beautiful piece.
Yeah, definitely.
That's a proper, you know, so like, yeah.
I put, yeah.
I think in terms of, Iwas, I was pretty like.

(37:16):
I'm a bit of a slap dash kind ofperson, like in terms of, but I've
built sculptures before, mostly working.
Like my background, the sculpturesI built before were all a hundred
percent like natural branches.
Like, so we would literally likego to a site, go out into the
bush and then just find deadbranches and then pull them back.
And then from that wewould create a sculpture.

(37:37):
So I was like, so my mentality,it like isn't so much about having
the plan and then being like, okay,I'm gonna need to like produce
X, Y, Z to then make the plan.
It's more like, what have I got?
And then let's work with whatI've got to build something.
So it's, it, I guess it'smore of a sculptural approach

(37:58):
rather than a build approach.
And so, yeah, so I was doing that a bitwith still with, even though the, the,
I did actually plan out a lot of it.
I did sketch up, you know, and model a lotof it just to get things like the mouth.
You know, I had the mouthalready planned out.
I had, you know, the scale of it plannedout and I had to figure out how many the

(38:18):
eyes, the eyes I off sourced were friends.
The eyes.
Yeah.
Um, Steven Manos.
So I put in a request to himto build the eyes for me.
Um, so yeah, so, and theyworked amazingly well.
And then, you know, another friend, JamieDonavan, who did the, he created the
bugs, the like kind of paper ache bugs.

(38:39):
And that was just like anoff the cuff comment kind of.
Well, you know, like, it was like a dream.
At one point I mentioned it to him,I was like, oh, hey Jamie, you make
these, you know, he's a amazing artist.
He makes creative, beautiful things.
At one point I was just like, ha,do you wanna make some lanterns?
It'd be really cool to have these,you know, hanging outside the frog.
And then, you know, two weeksbefore the burn, he was just like,

(39:01):
so what about those lanterns?
And I was like, oh yeah, sure,if you can, that'd be great.
Again, this was like, youknow, a beautiful, if possible.
And then he comes backand he's just built.
These like gorgeously, delicate papermache little bugs with like the, the
wings were made from dead snake skin,you know, and then like the feelers

(39:23):
were made from, uh, what is it?
Peacock feathers, you know?
So like, he just sourced beautifulmaterials to make these gorgeous
little s And so when you kind of.
Of these little aspects of it, thenthey can just like, put their whole into
it, which I think is really beautiful.

(39:46):
Yeah.
Um, I mean, then we burnit all down, all down.

Stevan (39:51):
What a shame.
It was so beautiful.

Jim (39:53):
It was,

Glenn (39:54):
you sound like my mother, there

Stevan (39:56):
was the best part.
Well, here's the thing.
Here's the thing.
I've got a little story.
So at the first Underland,uh, I met the locals there
and it was the, the rain moth.
And they were so impressed.
They loved it.
And I said, well, guess what?
The best part is we're gonna burn it down.
And they're, oh, what, whatare you doing guys doing?
Like, what are you,like, you guys are crazy.
So they

Glenn (40:15):
saying that though,

Stevan (40:16):
how do you guys feel about building something and burning it down?
How do you feel about buildingsomething and burning it down

Glenn (40:21):
are permanent?
So, so if we're looking at permanentartwork, these, these simply
could not be permanent artworks.
They, they wouldn't be structurally safe.
They'd degrade very quickly.
Um, we're not, yeah, they justwould fail in any context.
Um, in that pop.
I'm a pyromantic, uh, and Ireally love, love burning stuff.
So that's the best part.

Stevan (40:43):
It's the best part.
Yeah.
Like, like we was talking about,it's tribal, it's connection, it's,
uh, bonding and stuff like that.
So Yeah.
And,

Glenn (40:51):
and I'm really into the performance.
Um, so we, we do a lot of.
Educated guesses and experimentswhen we do this hard work and, you
know, we win some and we lose some,trying to create effects and things.
And so the people watching, um, don'treally know that we may have failed
two out of three effects we went for.
They're just really wowed bythe one that we did pull off.

(41:11):
And then sometimes we get luckyand produce effects we didn't plan.
We'll go, well, that's our pool shot.
We'll take that.
So, um, yeah, we, we do a lotof, um, planning, experimenting
with how things burn definitely.
And

Jim (41:24):
yeah, it's like,

Glenn (41:24):
which I really loved.

Jim (41:26):
I think that was the beauty of it, is that you build it to burn, you know,
like that's what I loved about thisexperience of just, you know, working
on the moth last year and then, yeah,the frog this year, just like that was
the first time that I'd ever thought.
Yeah, the effect that fire will have onit and the experience of how it'll burn
and what people will see and yeah, likeyou're saying Glenn, you can plan it or

(41:49):
you can think you can plan it as muchas you want, you know, but then in the
end of the day, it's gonna be blowinghowever much, you know, the wind's
gonna be doing whatever it's gonna bedoing, and you, the materials and the
structural will do its own thing as well.
Yeah.
I just remember like, because I, Ithink I had a very, uh, what's the word?
Like I had a complicated burnplan, you know, for the frog.

(42:11):
So

Stevan (42:13):
do you wanna explain to the listeners, like I sort of photo how
the flame kind of the bug or the fly?

Jim (42:20):
Yeah, yeah.
So explain it I guess.
Yeah.
I'll go back to like the ideathat I had this immediately.
So like when I was on buildone night, I was walking out.
And I could hear the call ofpobblebonks or Eastern banjo frogs.
So for anyone who doesn'tknow that sound, they're just
like, they go, you know, like,

(42:41):
so it's really, really distinct sound.
And then, you know, at the end ofthe, of the build for the moth or
the end of, um, that first underland,you know, people were talking about,
oh, who would like to build next?
And I just had this idea pop in my headof just like the idea of this frog.
I was just like, oh, a frog would be cool.
And then I was like, imagine ifthe frog could, like, its tongue,

(43:04):
could dart out and catch the flame,you know, and then pull it back in.
And I was just like, immediatelyI was just like, that would
be a really sick effect.
And I just, and my mind started tickingon like how we could make this work.
So yeah.
So in the end, I had, I'vedesi designed the frog.
It was sitting up on its back legs,kind of, you know, arms out, um,

(43:28):
holding, well it meant to be grass,but it kind of looks like, I don't
know, huge start staves in front of it.
Yeah.
We ended up, the bottom jaw of the frogwas on a hinge and you could operate it
from a lever inside the frog and Yeah.
And this was, you know, and it was alllike, it was a bit of an Easter egg.
Even the le like how that worked becausewe had all these natural branches

(43:50):
inside of it being the skeleton.
And then the lever was just alsothese natural branches that.
If you were looking for it, youcould find it, but if you weren't
looking for it, you wouldn't noticeit and you could unlock the lever.
And what I loved was that theperson operating the lever inside
couldn't see what was happening.
So it was only people who were outsidethe frog who could see the mouth moving.

(44:12):
So you had to work together tokind of have both experiences,
which I really loved.
And then on the night of, uh, forthe burn, yeah, I had, we built,
I think it was like a five meterlong or six meter long tongue
that I made out of Calico fabric.
And we'd done some testing or, you know,experiments during the build around

(44:35):
the campfire one night just to seewhat combinations of fuels would work
best to get the flame to dart up it.
A base of vegetable oil and then a topcoat of shell light, I think it was.
And yeah, we built outthe front of the frog.
We built a lotus flower and thenthat had bugs that Jamie had made on

(44:55):
it, and I lit the lotus flower and.
Oh, also one other thing.
Yeah, lots of puppetry.
So we had to, you know, havepuppetry to control the mouth.
And my original idea was like, oh yeah,someone will be out the back, someone
will be out the front to kind of pullthe tongue in, pull the tongue back.
But on the afternoon that we wereloading the, um, the effigy, a few

(45:16):
people in my, I was like, oh, whowants to be the puppeteer out the back?
And, you know, someone in my teamjust turned to me and they're like,
we all wanna be out the front.
Like, no one wants to be out the back.
And I was just like, okay.
Yep.
And I was just like, I was justlike, okay, cool, that's fine.
So then we had to like, sort ofredesign it so all the puppetry
came from out the front of the frog.
And I'm so glad that they said thatbecause, you know, at that point in

(45:39):
time I was just problem solving mind.
I wasn't really thinkingabout the full experience.
But, um, yeah, so the whole front,the effigy and after I lit the.
One person to drop the mouth,another person to pull the tongue
out, and the flames just traced upbeautifully into the mouth of the frog.

(46:00):
And then we pulled, yeah, another personpulled the tongue back in and so then that
like ran down into the stomach of the frogand yeah, so it just really swallowed the
flames and then we closed the mouth againand yeah, the whole thing kind of went
up from the, from the belly up, I guess.
Yeah.
And it was, it, I can'tbelieve how well it worked.

(46:21):
It like it was insanethat nothing went wrong.
And yeah, I just remember going upto do the burn briefing with all the
safety crew and with, you know, rustyand everyone who was leading that.
And you know, I'm surroundedby such extremely talented and
experienced people, you know, who'vebeen doing it for like decades.

(46:41):
And here am I being like thisdude of just like, oh, yep.
And so then this will happen,and then this will happen, and
then this will happen, and then,you know, it'll burn from there.
And everyone's just like, mm-hmm.
Oh, so what'll happen if it doesn't work?
Like we'll figure it out.
No, we did have backups, butyeah, it was, um, it was a dream.

(47:03):
And yeah, I was really happy to beable to kind of bring that kind of
playful narrative to it because, youknow, it's not, even though we, you
know, we did, we did use a lot of fueland we tried, you know, try to have
a few big bang, which we did have.
It doesn't all need to be hugepyrotechnics or anything like that.
Like, I think if you just have someclever ideas, um, to bring in some

(47:24):
story to it, it really makes, yeah, theprocess of how things burn and how things
collapse can make the whole, that wholepart another dimension of the artwork.

Stevan (47:33):
Yeah.
And you talked about the, youtalked, you talked about the frogs.
Uh, are they still, oh.
And in the site.

Jim (47:40):
I hope so.
So I didn't hear them at thefarm last time I was there.
I know Mick, the um, the landowner,he was doing some earthworks near the
little dam where I'd first heard themand I think he busted a wall on it.
So I dunno if it was in the best,it wasn't in the best like frog
friendly condition last time I saw it.

(48:01):
But hopefully with.
A bit more time, it'll all come back.
I'm definitely thinking of all of them.
I know there's bush fires outthat way at the moment now, so I
hope they're all doing alright.
But, um, it was just a beautifulopportunity to have that like,
you know, I had that experience onthat first year and then to like be
inspired by it to bring something back.
And so then to be able to, yeah,I had, um, sound recordings

(48:23):
going inside the frog as well.
And you know, again, this was likesomething that I'd had an idea in
my head, but then in the lead uphadn't really organized anything.
But during the build, you know, I sharedthe idea with, you know, the team.
And again, mark being an absolute.
Legend was just like, he had like, youknow, one of those trad portable speakers

(48:44):
from a construction site sort of thing.
And he's just like, oh, I'll justbuild a spot in the bench where we
can just put this and then you justput your phone on it and we've just
got it going and that's it, you know?
Yeah.
And so, yeah, every little maybethat I had just worked out.
Yeah.
And he was able to create sucha beautiful interior space.
You know, when I, like, in my mind,I was just like, it can just be

(49:05):
a dirt floor and a danky bench.
And then he builds, you know, thisstunning, you know, designed floor
and, you know, carved benchesand yeah, it was just great.
And we were just kind of working withthese random materials that I had.
So, you know, I'd had like off cuts ofslabs that we shaved to make the face and.

(49:32):
Plank.
And again, you know, bits of wood, whichI just like threw into the truck as well.
I was just like, they'llbe useful somewhere.
And all of that timber justgot used in the interior.
Yeah.
And it was just,

Stevan (49:42):
so the, um, your story, your background is very important too, for us
to connect with you as well as the build.
Yeah, it's interesting.
It's like, uh, I guess, uh, admiringsomeone's tattoo, you know, there
must be a story behind that.
Thank you.
So when you're, yeah, Iwas very impressed, Jim.
Very impressed with your,uh, with your work there.
All the details.
All the details, and it worked well.

Jim (50:01):
Yeah.
You're welcome.
Yeah, no, it worked really well.

Stevan (50:03):
Thanks for sharing all that.
Okay.
Well, let's, well, I've, I'vegot, um, so shall we move on to,
to a bit of more fun segment?
We ha I have a, I've designeda little brain teaser here.
It's about, um, iconic templesand structures around the world.
Uh, so what we'll do, wouldyou guys wanna play a little
of brain teaser here with Sure.
Talking about temples and structures.

Glenn (50:22):
Are you gonna plan how we're gonna burn them down?

Stevan (50:25):
No.
Well, uh, uh, what I'll do isI'll read out a set of clues
or random or random trivia.
Uh, you tell me what the iconicstructural temple is, where it is, or
what country and bonus points if youvisit these iconic temples or structures.
Yeah.
All right.
So clue number one or trivial number one.
This structure was constructedbetween 1631 and 1653.

(50:49):
So the 17th century Next clue,it's Islamic religious building.
It can be a mosque, a tomb, or museleum.
It took over 20,000 people humanpower to construct this building.
The design was influenced by a middle is,do you know what it's, I have no idea.
Yes.
You mentioned that earlier,

Glenn (51:08):
wasn't

Stevan (51:09):
it?
It's actually, yeah.
You mentioned it earlier, so well done.
It was dedicated.

Glenn (51:14):
Dedicated to his love at the time.

Stevan (51:15):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
It attracts about eight to seven, sevento 8 million pe uh, tourists a year.

Jim (51:21):
I haven't yet been,

Stevan (51:21):
which was a lot of people.

Jim (51:22):
Yeah.

Stevan (51:23):
And apparently it's turning yellow, although it was originally
built with the white ivory marble.

Jim (51:28):
Oh, wow.

Stevan (51:29):
But with the pollution, it's turning yellow,

Jim (51:30):
I guess it's getting smoker's teeth.
Yeah,

Stevan (51:35):
that's right.
Yeah.
I'd, I have never been there.
Have you guys been there?
Yeah.
It's quite impressive.
Yeah.
Alright, trivia number two.
This, uh, iconic structure wasconstructed between 72 AD and 80
AD completed in 81 AD, but this hasbeen some more modifications to it.

(51:55):
It's an elliptical amphitheaterbuilt using volcanic rock.
Travis, Trevor Limestone.
And brick faced concrete

Glenn (52:03):
coliseum.

Stevan (52:04):
Yes, that's right.
Yes.
In Italy Rome.
You guys been there?

Glenn (52:09):
Yeah.
That's gonna be of a brutal story.
Yes, I have been there.

Stevan (52:12):
Tell us about it.
Oh, were you inspired by the architecture?

Glenn (52:15):
Uh, yeah.
I was really surprised that small was,uh, i, I come from modern stadiums,
MCG, uh, the cossum would fit it justin the, probably the football ground.
But yeah, it was, it's fascinating thepolitical history of that as well, where,
um, they basically entertained the massesto distract them from what they wanted
to do politically, which then escalatedin just more violent and violent experts.

(52:37):
So yeah, very similar to what'shappening these days with our stadiums.

Stevan (52:41):
Yeah, it's got a quite interesting history.
I mean, my, um, connection to itwas, was from the Bruce Lee movies
in Chuck Norris when they foughtat the end, at the Coliseum.
That's my connection, Brandon Okay.
Trivia number three.
This structure is made fromlimestone, mortar and granite.
It was built in circa 25 60 BC. Itwas put over a period of 25 years,

(53:02):
it served as holding the record asthe tallest human made structure in
the world for more than 3,800 years.

Glenn (53:08):
One of the pyramids

Stevan (53:09):
oldest among that?
Sorry,

Glenn (53:12):
one of the pyramids?
The Egyptian pyramids?

Stevan (53:14):
Yeah, the, the Great Pyramid of Giza in Cairo.

Jim (53:17):
Was the structure.

Stevan (53:19):
Yeah.
That was, that's a, it's ancient,like a ancient wonders of the world.
It was,

Jim (53:24):
I haven't visited quite a time yet, but I always get blown away by the photos.
Yeah.
So when like, you know how like it'slike picturesque when you look at it
from one angle, but then like you turnaround and then like the city is like
right there, which you just never expect.
I think that would be wild to visit.

Stevan (53:38):
No, and everything's just perfect.
I mean,
yeah.

Glenn (53:41):
Yeah.
The, the thing that would bereally fascinating is its original
context because, you know, there'sevidence that they were, uh,
highly painted, highly colored,bright, very beautiful structures.
I haven't visited that one, buthave visited a bunch in, uh, south
America, which are amazing experiences.
Um, the acoustics, um, and abunch of other, other stuff.

(54:01):
Optical illusions.
Uh, just fascinating.
So amazing.
I love that stuff.
Mm.

Stevan (54:08):
Uh, next question.
So this, this structure, this buildingwas constructed in 1959 and completed
in 1973, designed by Danish architect,designed by Danish architect Joorn Utzon.
It's a multi venue performing artscenter, designated a World heritage
site by UNESCO in 2007 and attracts

(54:28):
over 8 million people a year.

Glenn (54:31):
Sydney Opera House.

Stevan (54:33):
Correct.
Very iconic, uh, with the sails.
What do you on the designdesign, is it inspirational?

Jim (54:39):
I love it.
I love it because it, withthe building structure?
Yeah, because it's just, yeah, it's great.
You gonna build an art,like yeah, I love it.
You know, a place for art, makeit, make it a piece of art itself.
And I love how like these huge,iconic buildings always have like
such controversy around like howthey'll build, you know, like the
politicians get involved and they'relike, ah, it's too expensive.

(55:00):
You know, and now what they're likerebuilding it to like put in his original
designs into the interior as well, Ithink now, or they were doing that.

Stevan (55:08):
Yeah.
Do you think, do you think peopleare building it to be like put, to be
put onto like a World Heritage listor something like that's the Grand
Design Center, something out there?

Glenn (55:18):
I, i'd assume that an artist at that level would be trying to, you
know, really push their creative vision.
So yeah.
I'd assume that a, uh, a structurelike that, they were not so much
to win awards, but to really Yeah.
Yeah.
Really push what theycan push what's possible.

Jim (55:34):
You know, like I'm sure there would've been some crazy engineering Yep.
To make that work, you know?
Like, yeah, you don't want, if you'regonna build something beautiful,
you don't just build a block.
Yeah,

Stevan (55:47):
no, that's right.
Like Minecraft.
Yes.
Okay.
Question number five.
It was constructed in1555, completed in 1561.
It's designed in a shape of a risingflame that resembles a bonfire rising
into the sky, comprised of eight churchessurrounding a large core structure
built from red brick and white stone.

(56:09):
And it's a, in a, it's a cathedral.
Sorry.
The cathedral is, is a representationof medieval art and architecture.

Jim (56:17):
I was thinking cathedral.

Stevan (56:19):
So it is a cathedral.

Jim (56:21):
It's not one though.
The rising flames.
That's what I'm trying to think
of.

Stevan (56:26):
The rising flames.
I dunno.
The bonfire looks.
I've never been there as well.

Glenn (56:32):
That's a bad mix though.
With, with Christian history,they're really pushy pushing that on.
Oh,

Jim (56:38):
oh, is it?

Stevan (56:39):
It's in Moscow, Russia.

Jim (56:40):
That really brightly colored one in, is that, what is that called?
I know.
What is that in?
Um, Peter

Stevan (56:46):
st basil's Cathedral.
Mos.
Okay.
Moscow.
Moscow.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's iconic for it's rising flame.
I've never been one with the green looks.
Gold looks how they designed it.

Jim (56:56):
That one.
Oh, okay.

Stevan (57:00):
No, it's red.
Yeah, red.
Okay.
So this structure was constructedin 1122 CE to 1150 CE when it
was completed, built as a templeshrine, musoleum and observatory.
It's dedicated to the Hindu God.
Vishnu has celestial significancewith certain features like

(57:22):
precise location of the Soltice.
At Sunrise, it has five centraltowers symbolizing the peaks of
mount, which according to mythology,is the dwelling place of the gods.

Jim (57:33):
Yes, I do not know.
I do not know my Hindu temples.

Stevan (57:36):
Do you know this temple?
It's in Asia.
It's in siem reap, Cambodia.

Glenn (57:42):
I, I, I think I can see pictures of it, and they've got big
trees going through it and stuff.
Yeah.
That's gorgeous.

Stevan (57:47):
Yeah.
Correct.
Yes.
Angkor.
Wat Yes, Cambodia.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So it's centuries old.
Yeah.
It, it has an aura.
So these places do have an aura.
Would you agree with that?
Have you been to these, uh, largemonuments or iconic structures?
Yeah.
It give us a, it gives a big presence.
Like you can feel the whole Yeah.

Glenn (58:07):
And that, that was the point of cathedrals, is to really overwhelm
me with a mighty power of God.
So you, yeah.

Stevan (58:17):
Yeah.
Last one.
Last one.
We'll.
This was constructed in seven in, sorry,this was constructed in 1978, completed
in 1986, designed by Iranian architecturefor, Foriborz, Sahba, hard to pronounce.
It's characterized by ninesided construction in keeping

(58:37):
with the belief in the mythicalproperties of the number nine.
It's composed of 27 freestandingmarble clad pedals, arranging
clusters of three to form nine sides.
Again, nine notable forits lotus like shape.
So that's a big clue there.

Jim (58:54):
Temple, lotus Temple,

Stevan (58:56):
and it is a temple based in India,

Jim (59:00):
India.

Stevan (59:03):
Glenn,
it's a lotus shape.
The Lotus Temple, and it's a temple.
So it's a lotus temple.
It's in New Delhi.
It's, well, it's fairly recent,I guess in the modern era.
So 1986.
Yeah, I haven't been there.
It looked, it looked great.
Yeah.
You know, like modernarchitecture's pretty good too.

Glenn (59:21):
It's in Interesting you mentioned the, um, number nine, which comes
part of the sacred geometry subset.
Um, and a lot of the, uh, burner,uh, builders are using sacred
geometry, um, as their base.
We, I use six a lot and a lot of otherartists sort of using six and then
other, um, multiples of that geometry.
That's cool.

Stevan (59:41):
Yeah, that's interesting.
Do, uh, is there acourse for that as well?

Glenn (59:44):
Uh, you can just do the basics.
Um, I'm sure you'll find stuff online.
So yeah, a comp, it's good to get acompass and then you can just draw it out.
So you start with the, um, inception,which is two circles, and then
you go up to the holy trinity.
Um, and the, the reason this subset ofgeometry is sacred is because it's just
been used by so many religious icons.

(01:00:05):
So once you start getting compassand drawing it out, which you end
up with a tree of life, but there'sa whole bunch of religious symbol
that are formed during that process.
Uh, all geometry sacred, this is onesthat we just used by very true, but
from an aesthetic point of view, um, itreally does lead to, to, um, beautiful.
A

Jim (01:00:25):
yeah.
Groups three.
Yeah.

Stevan (01:00:28):
Okay.
Let's, let's take a short break andwe'll be right back after these messages.

Nugby (01:00:34):
Hey, Bonzaar, Nugby here, uh, secretary Crew Wrangler and Chief
Coffee Consumer at, uh, third degree,uh, part-time crew, wrangler of seed.
There's plenty of other things, I'msure, both, uh, before and during.
And, um, yeah, uh, looking forwardto hitting both those up this year
and sad that I won't be gettingthat, uh, Canberra Winter solstice.

(01:00:57):
Goodness.
But, uh, look forward toseeing you all out there.

Neillo (01:01:01):
Hey there, Steve.
This is Neillo here.
Congratulations on the podcast.
Very exciting news that we're, that theburner community in Australia is moving
to this very convenient medium and there'sno better man than yourself to drive it.
Hello to everybody.
Hope you're well.
Hope you're listening.
Hope you're still burning away.

(01:01:22):
Love you lots.
Take care.
Bye-bye.

Stevan (01:01:26):
Okay, we're back.
Uh, what I wanna talkabout is the idea of.
Having a burn without a burn.
Uh, we still have an effigy or atemple, but we don't burn because that
way we can do it in the summertime orin warmer weathers, which, although
in terms of holding it in thoseseasons, we don't have a burn permit.
So how can we burn inthe summertime, guys?

(01:01:48):
What do you think?

Jim (01:01:49):
To be honest, I know, I'm like, I'm feeling my experience with even other
summer festivals in Australia, like,you know, it's almost impossible now to
have a festival in January, you know,because of like just the bushfire risk.
And so I'm almost tempted to say, why havethe sum, why have the burn in the summer?

(01:02:12):
You know?
But that being said, even you know, ifyou do it earlier in the year, sometimes
you can't do the burn, you know?
So there was like a risk of thathappening with Underland this year.
You know, there was pretty high winds.
So you can't always control it, but yeah,a burn without a burn, would it just be
a music festival or an arts festival?

(01:02:36):
Um, I think there'd have to be alot of intention in the community.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But you could still gather,do things in other ways.
Maybe.
Do you have a thought, Glenn?

Stevan (01:02:46):
What are your thoughts, Glenn?

Glenn (01:02:47):
Yeah, I mean, I think we can replicate most of the magic of our
gatherings and of our community, but, um,we, we can't replicate the power of the
experiences, in my opinion, of, of fire.
Yes, there are alternatives you could do.
Um, you know, I, I think theatersprobably where it would go because,
you know, doing a permanent sculpturesort of doesn't have that pinnacle, you

(01:03:11):
know, the reason to gather or whatever.
So, you know, maybe astructure that's performance.
Puppet something, something.
So, yeah.
Um, but I also, I mentionedearlier, it's this winter that is
also a part of this, you know, thesolstice burning at the solstice.
There's, there's a whole bunch of,um, you know, and also people who come

(01:03:33):
are willing to come in the winter.
Uh, sometimes a different typeof per person that will only
come when it's nice in the sun.
So yeah, I don't think we should bedogmatic and say we have to burn.
Um, but for me it's, it'sa big part of it for me.

Stevan (01:03:47):
Would, would one idea be, say we can have.
A summer without burning, but transferthose art or something where we can
burn it in the next year forwardin the wintertime or something.
So we can have an alternativealternating kind of season or kind
of gathering burn or something.
I'm not sure.

Glenn (01:04:04):
I mean, if you, if you own the property or you can store, I mean
storage, transport, um, artworks thatwe build would wouldn't last that long.
Hmm.
Uh, again, you know, you canget around these hurdles.
I don't think, I don't see the climaxof a, um, cul a sculpture that's still
there on Sunday morning, like when youburn it on Saturday, it's a climax.

(01:04:28):
Like it's,

Stevan (01:04:29):
it's the best part, as we keep on saying.

Glenn (01:04:31):
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's a climax ofenergy and, um, I think a lot of
that energy is when people tapinto the primal human experience.
I mentioned before, you know,the seasons, the fire, the, um.
All of that.
I, I do think it injects justa primal energy into the event.

Jim (01:04:50):
That being said, I also like if there, if the land was, you know, um,
available to leave artworks and that sortof stuff, and if the event was of a scale
enough, I think the idea of building artand art piece with the intention of it
to live like a year or two and then tobe burned is a really great experience.

(01:05:15):
Recently went to Africa Burn and likelast year, and because, you know, the
scale, like they do own that land or they,like, they have use of that land and they
have scale because it's, you know, it'sbasically a huge open desert, but they're
limited on resources, so they encouragelike not the effigy or the temple,

(01:05:37):
but like the other art burns will get.
A few of them will be built of such aquality that they'll then stay there
for two or three years before they burn.
And I think, and that allowsa smaller group of artists to
create a space with higher impact.
You know?
So I think if Australia ever got, youknow, if we ever had a space that had

(01:06:01):
the scale to allow that, I think thatwould be something worth exploring.
But yeah, in terms of like theeffigy and the temple, um, yeah.
And for either burn it ordon't build it, I think,

Glenn (01:06:10):
yeah, I mean, I would also, I would also add to, um, if we
built, say Jim's for, left it for ayear, it'd become a rich ecosystem.
So, you know, do we just set fireall the creatures that are in there?

Jim (01:06:22):
Hmm, that's true.
Yeah, because yeah,

Glenn (01:06:26):
I, I put a spider outta the temple, um, while we, uh,
putting, putting fuel on it.
Um, so already it's attracting wildlife.
Um.
You get spider, then you'll get,you know, lizards and goes up
food chain as you know the story.

Jim (01:06:43):
Yeah, you definitely have birds perching in the top of
those reeds that for there

Stevan (01:06:50):
as well as all the cows running, running into them.

Glenn (01:06:53):
But I, I do think there's a massive place though, massive, for having a more
permanent site where we can, um, you know,build more permanent structures that are
more appropriate to be, um, permanent.
Or we could explore and there'sbeen discussions about this where we
build permanent artwork, then we moveit to the local community so that
they can then use that as a touristattraction, which helps that community.

(01:07:17):
Uh, area around anyway.
Um, so yeah, I think there's a lotof stuff that we can do, um, in
permanent artwork that would be very,

Stevan (01:07:25):
yeah.
I think Blazing Swan, blazing Swan hasa, has a permanent artwork in Kulin.
In the city, in the township of Kulin.
Yeah.

Jim (01:07:31):
That's cool.
They build it there permanently or do they

Stevan (01:07:34):
they built it at Swan and then they shifted into the
town center, I think it is.
Yeah,

Jim (01:07:39):
yeah, yeah.

Glenn (01:07:40):
Can I just do a quick shout out?
The, uh, state and, um,regional governments got, uh,
applications, you know, 20-100grand to build stuff like this.
Um, and, uh, uh, common arts has agreedto a, so if you have some sort of idea
to say, well, look, we'll build this.
It's like hundred grand worth of budget.

(01:08:01):
Um, just put it out there.

Jim (01:08:03):
Cool.

Glenn (01:08:04):
They probably won't let us burn it, but, um, but if, yeah, if
you wanna put it in the local town,for example, um, and you could use
that money to include, you know, yourengineer fees and like, you know,
whatever sort of extra costs involved,

Jim (01:08:17):
you'd have to get some proper plans.

Glenn (01:08:20):
Need
you've got
in the press

Stevan (01:08:38):
is what is the budget for this year's?
It'll be similar to last year's build.
So for this year, what is the budget?
Do have approximates for that?

Glenn (01:08:47):
I think it's 12 grand for both effigy and temple.

Jim (01:08:51):
Yeah.
So that was the same, um,

Glenn (01:08:54):
don't quote, but it's roughly that.

Jim (01:08:56):
Yeah, that was the budget, um, for this year.

Glenn (01:08:58):
So put that in perspective.
Burning seeds.
Um, effigy used to be 25 grand and theum, temple is 20, I think roughly numbers.
So they're much smallerbudgets, uh, say that.
But if you're being creativeand, uh, especially with your
materials, because that's whereyou spend most of your budget on.
Yeah.
You can really makethat budget go long way.

Jim (01:09:19):
Yeah.

Glenn (01:09:20):
And food supplied and, uh, that food additional and like a.

Stevan (01:09:29):
And is also the limitations with the, the, the structure, the
size of the structure as well.

Glenn (01:09:33):
Uh, yeah, the permit, it keeps getting bigger.
Um, back to your, uh, thingabout no burns, one of the strong
conversations is about restricting,restricting the size of the burns.
Like we don't need to bebuild and bigger than Ben Hur.
And um, the smaller the go, themore intricate you can go, you can
do more performance, more puppetry.
So I think that the scale that we'redoing at the moment is ideal scale.

(01:09:55):
I personally wouldn't wanna go any bigger.
I think we've got permits to go bigger,but again, depends on your concept.
Of course.

Jim (01:10:01):
Yeah.

Stevan (01:10:01):
Yeah.
It also depends on, dependingon the population that we have.
So seed seeds a biggerpopulation than underland.
So yeah, because you want that communalspace to be more, uh, very, I, I
guess more approachable, like you canactually feel like we're talking about
with the aura of these structures.

Glenn (01:10:20):
Yeah, I mean the other big issue is that if you go above sort
of four and a half, five meters inheight, your logistics completely
change because you need them to havelicensed, uh, either scaffold or you've
gotta have people with tickets thatcan use machinery that's expensive,
really slows it down, restricts things.
I mean, it gets exponentially morecomplex and difficult and expensive

(01:10:43):
to go above four and a half meters.

Jim (01:10:45):
Yeah.
It's much nicer to work on something'shuman scale, you know, and especially in
that term, like how we're talking about,you know, how to make it inclusive.
If you can have something thatyou can build basically working on
the ground, which is kind of how.
The frog and the temple worked this year.
Like they were both taken apart insections and like we had the body

(01:11:06):
and then the legs, sorry, the headon the ground and was able to work on
them both separately at that scale.
It makes it a much more approachablesort of, and way easier to manage.
You don't have to wear about safetyor as much of about safety of
heights and that sort of stuff, so,

Stevan (01:11:23):
so it's like a Ikea flatbed kind of you assembly

Jim (01:11:26):
Exactly.

Stevan (01:11:27):
Bit by bit.

Jim (01:11:28):
Stack it on top, like a big wedding cake is how we did the,
uh, how the temple was done.
Also, speaking of that, you know, likeyeah, you know, yeah, if it went any
higher you'd have to definitely hirein bigger cranes and that sort of stuff

Glenn (01:11:43):
again, and.

Stevan (01:11:46):
Yeah.
So if you love to, to, to doyourself in Ikea, you should
come and build a temple then.

Jim (01:11:53):
For sure.
For sure.

Stevan (01:11:53):
That's the next level.
Next step.
Progressively.
Yeah.

Glenn (01:11:57):
Or we could just go burn in Ikea down.

Stevan (01:12:01):
Have you ever, have you ever tried to play hide?
Uh, played hide and seek there in Ikea?
Hide.
and seek,

Jim (01:12:09):
nah.
Just start using all the, you know,the random bedrooms and furniture.
Nah,
I haven't been to one of them for years.

Stevan (01:12:19):
So we talk about the, so I love the, uh, burner generated discussions
that's happening around social media.
There's one particular onethat I wanna highlight.
It's, it's, uh, by ErinSusan Killian Del Castello.
So she wrote about rethinkingthe temple at seed and some
of the themes or takeaways.
Uh, we should really so manypeople, miss the Potential of

(01:12:43):
the place, what she writes in.
And she has three, um, several thingsthat's required if we're to rethink,
sort of like make it a more sacredplace temp, especially for the temple.
Do you guys have any, have you guys readthis piece that you wrote on Facebook
and you guys got any thoughts on that?

Glenn (01:13:01):
Yeah, I mean, I'm very supportive of it.
Um, you know, and that reallydoes honor the tradition that
David Best originally had.
Uh, and if we're talking about suicideor other really major loss or, you
know, also some really happy stuff,these places can be very heavy and deep.
And if you've got other people there,you know, getting rowdy and having,

(01:13:25):
having a party, which was, it was great,but you know, there's probably, maybe
this time of place isn't easy for that.
Um, and my understanding is that Erin was,was wanting to, to create more awareness
that, that this space is being usedin that way by a lot of people, um, to
bring a bit more respect to these spaces.
And, um, and I think they also had astrategy of having like a collective that,

(01:13:50):
um, would hang out and sort of, um, justsoftly sort of, um, create that culture.

Stevan (01:13:56):
Yeah.
She talks about, yeah, she talksabout, uh, offering to hold a
space for her theme camp mates, youknow, and for other, other people.
So it, it's, it's, it's a kind of spacewhere in the default world, it's kind
of taboo to be sharing these kind offeelings or sorrows with strangers.
So, yeah.
And she highlights, uh, these, thesethree, well, communication ahead

(01:14:17):
of the event is key if you wannarethink what the temple represents.
The other one is.
The right design, and she talksabout it being completely different
from the rest of the burn.
It's like even, even the effigy.
So it's completely within, itsits own kind of space there.
Unique space.
And the other thing that she talksabout is seeing examples in use.

(01:14:42):
And one example would be like aprogram of, of, uh, completive music
or something that can be like, like youwere saying, a performance or something
like that as well, just to educate andgive some awareness out there as well
as a background, as you know, for youJim, it, it's a connection for people.

Jim (01:15:01):
Totally.
I think, yeah.
I think.
If they're gonna built, they shouldbe built with that intention.
And I would say, yeah, like designcan have such a huge impact on them.
You know, like creating a space thatencourages that sort of reflection.

(01:15:24):
I think.
Yeah, it's, I know how, you know, shetalked on how it's like, it's hard to
kind of like educate in the moment,you know, if it's clashing with a
space and you, this might be like acontroversial opinion of mine, but like,
I always found, like burning seed wasthe first burn that I ever went to.
And yeah, I never, I didn't oftenconnect with the temple at that size.

(01:15:48):
And there was, I think there'ssomething about the fact that it's
held, it's within the, the gathering.
So you can't, you can't, likepilgrim, you can't go into
like a mini pilgrimage to it.
It's kind of, everything'salready around you.
So I don't know, like ifthat has an impact on that.

(01:16:10):
Like it's hard to take the party awayfrom it when the party is all around it.
Whereas at other burns, you know,if it, if it has a little bit of
distance, it's something you have togo to away and you got you lit, you
physically walk away from the party thathelps to bring reflectiveness to it.
I think that would be my sort ofthoughts, but I think it's definitely,

Stevan (01:16:33):
yeah, she mentioned, yeah, Erin writes in, in her,
in her piece about blazing Swan.
Uh, that was really transformativefor her, the experience.
Um, and, and it was becauseit was a bit further away.

Glenn (01:16:46):
Yeah,

Jim (01:16:46):
definitely.
Yeah.

Glenn (01:16:47):
And I heard one, one Sunday afternoon a blazing swan
violinist playing at their temple.
It was very beautiful experience.
I also just wanted to mention thatthe, um, that Tiffany that was, uh,
co-leading the nautilus, um, processthat had a very strong intention
about creating a sacred space.
Um, and use the spiral to actuallydisconnect people from the, um, festival

(01:17:13):
and then bring them into the space.
And then inside was a, and it wasthat, um, ceremony of walking around.
Uh, and then once you're in thatinner space, there was, um, uh, you
know, a shrine type arrangement there.
So there was a lot of intentto creating a sacred space.
And, and she was also exploring,um, this very ancient creature.

(01:17:35):
Uh, I think it's from dinosaur times.
Don't quote me on that, but it's veryancient, the united facing extinction
because, um, the acidification ofthe ocean through to carbon dioxide.
So, you know, she was also dealingwith, you know, um, something that
was very emotional to her personally.
A mass extinction of, of our, ofour, you know, complete collapse

(01:17:55):
of our, um, natural world.

Jim (01:17:58):
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
That journey.
And that was gorgeous.
You know, so I. Yeah, like theintention of the group behind it as
well as like really considered designcan have a really strong impact.
And then, and I think that's thingsthat like the, like the temple creators
can control, but then in terms of,yeah, that sort of like community

(01:18:24):
education invitations and all thatsort of stuff, that's where it has
to kind of like just be opened up tothe community to be like, okay, now
you, this has been built for you.
Please use it.
Respect or invite people touse it in that fit for it.
Reflect.
So where it kind of turns out toeveryone else, like, you know, to

(01:18:46):
kind of use it, um, appropriately orexperience, like have your experiences.

Stevan (01:18:52):
So when we, so when we talk about having the right design or
having one that resembles, uh, I guessmore like a temple, um, is it, yeah.
I mean, what, what, what.
Uh, impressions of whata temple should be like.
I mean, this year's, this year's, uh,was probably a great example because

(01:19:13):
the first comments people were sayingwas that, that it's very temply,
whether that's a word to describea temple, of course it's a temple.
It's temply Yeah.
But the image or the, or the,or the, the vision that people
had straight away was Yeah.
From an ancient kind of influence,kind of inspired design.
And Asian cultures areknown for their temples.

(01:19:37):
Yeah.
So aesthetically, do we need tohave something that is temply?
Well, what is a temple?

Glenn (01:19:42):
I think it needs to function as a temple.
Um, and there's a lot of religious,um, and cultural history.
So you're talking aboutthe Asian, um, inspiring.
You could also go right back to, to the,um, druids of the uk uh, uh, Northern
Europe where they had stone circles.
I mean, that was holding its space.
Um.

(01:20:03):
You know, uh, through to sort of churchesand a whole bunch of different buildings.
I, I think the architecture of,uh, Aruna's design, which was a
very unique spin on a traditionaldesign, really resonated as a temple.
Um, but I think where Erin'scoming from is more, it needs
to be a functional space.
You sort of disconnect peoplefrom the festival so they can,

(01:20:24):
you know, explore their emotions.

Jim (01:20:27):
Mm-hmm.

Glenn (01:20:27):
That's my understanding.

Stevan (01:20:28):
Yeah.
And what are your thoughtsabout Guardian temples?
Oh, sorry.
Yeah.
Temple Guardians.

Glenn (01:20:32):
Well, if we can find volunteers, I think it's a, a really good thing.
It's like anything, uh, these burns,it's, uh, there's a lot of ideas for
whether there's people willing to,that are inspired to do that step up.

Jim (01:20:44):
Yeah.
I guess I would, yeah.
My second burning seed, I think I waspart of that first Temple Guardian crew
actually for the, yeah, for that templethat had the glass that cracked open.
It was.
Yeah, I don't know.
It's like, I think how she mentionslike you don't want it to be, this a
role of where you're trying to likecreep on people as they're there.

(01:21:08):
I think a Temple Guardian, like whenit is a really powerful place, like
if the Guardian is there to, you know,support people in there, their process,
emotional processing, I think that'sa really powerful and important role.
But I would kind of hope that itwas, oh yeah, I would hope that
there was enough sort of likeconversation and community engagement.

Stevan (01:21:32):
Uh, thanks for coming on guys.
Do you guys wanna talkabout anything else?
Mention anything else?

Jim (01:21:37):
No, I would just say, yeah, thanks Stevan for having this podcast and anyone
who's interested in ever, you know,being part of an effigy or a temple.
I think it's definitelya worthwhile experience.
I think everyone should build a temple.
Everyone should build an effigy.
It doesn't mean you have todesign it, but just get involved.
It makes the experience ofbeing at a burn so much nicer.

(01:21:59):
Like you really feel partof it in another way.

Glenn (01:22:02):
Yeah, and if you have any perceived barriers, um, please
contact me personally, or there'sa bit of a collective forming
for inclusion and support.
Um, so those barriershopefully could be overcome.
And if you're a bit shy,then join a build crew.
And the great thing about buildcrews is you learn skills.
So if you've got no idea abouthow a hammer works, that's fine.

(01:22:23):
We can show you.
We're really into skill sharing.
So yeah, come along and get involved.
Um, the email came out this morning, um,inviting people to do an application.
If you are not out, signedup to the mailing list, then
get on the mailing list.
Also jump on the Slack channel, um,that Underland got, that you can, um,
ask questions and I'll just, uh, readout paragraph from the newsletter.

(01:22:45):
To support your application.
There will be one more infosession and feedback opportunities
during February with applicationsdue by the end of February.
In March we will decide onthe winning application and
then the work begins in April.
So yeah, if you miss the lastwebinar, um, uh, hopefully
they'll upload it at somewhere.
Um, we'll try track that down.
But there's another webinar coming onso you can answer through the process,

(01:23:08):
uh, hear a bit more, ask questions,um, and yeah, hopefully get involved.
And yeah, if you're not sure of aconcept, you could just pitch that.
You go, look, I'm not sure, but I'vegot this sort of idea kicking around.
Or some of my mates arethinking this or that.
'cause yeah, we can alwayshave a conversation.

Jim (01:23:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It doesn't have to be a complete idea.
It starts

Glenn (01:23:26):
get amongst it.

Stevan (01:23:26):
Yeah.
It just starts, yeah.
It starts with the, with thislittle spark, little, little idea.
Yeah.
Are, are there any other artprojects that you guys wanna share?
You guys, what's, you guys gotanything big planned or any little
projects that you wanna talk about?

Glenn (01:23:41):
I'm hoping to, um, hoping to debut, uh, a piece of paperwork on
for a few years at Burning Seed thisyear, which, uh, doesn't involve fire.
Um, so yeah.
Wish me luck for thenext round of funding.

Jim (01:23:53):
Exciting.
Exciting.

Stevan (01:23:56):
It is.
Yeah.
How about you, Jimbo

Jim (01:23:58):
I've got nothing planned at the moment.
I'm kind of coming off the back of backto back festivals and art and I've got
my downtime, I've got a couple of weeksoff in March, which is when I might
start looking at the next coming year.
Yeah.
I'm still coming down a little bitfrom the effigy this year, but I
definitely wanna be involved indoing some more come next season.

(01:24:19):
So watch this space.

Stevan (01:24:22):
Cool.
Okay.
Thanks Glenn.
And, and Jimbo for coming on the show.
Appreciate you guys comingtogether, this, uh, inspiring work,
what you guys do, awesome work.
And um, yeah, thanks for allthe information sharing and
talking about your backstory.
Loved it.
Uh, hopefully you getyou guys back on again.
Talk more Art.
So Underland this year.
See you guys there on the paddock.

Jim (01:24:44):
We'll see you there.
Thanks so much.

Stevan (01:24:47):
Alright, any other shout?
Any other mentions you guys?
Shout out to your crew,Jimbo, so, you know.

Jim (01:24:52):
Oh, totally.
I wanna thank you all my crewfor jumping on board this year.
Couldn't have done it without all of you.
Yeah.
Mark, Andrew, Nick, Ronnie.
Oh my gosh.
I'm someone else but everyone on.
Thank you Axel Glenn, thankyou for creating such a great
mentoring experience at as well.

Glenn (01:25:14):
Yeah.
Could I also do a big shoutout to the actual committee?
Um, and all the people that doall the, like less sexier work,
they're building cool sculptures.
Um, someone's doing accounting anddatabase stuff and whole bunch of jobs.
Um, and it really does take a communityto build this artwork and there's a
whole bunch of people that, um, reallycontribute that really underpin this work.

(01:25:38):
And so a big, big thank you and love to,to all the people that are doing that
work, and a big thank you to all the firesort of safety support people and all the
rangers that make it safe and all that.
So, yeah.
Uh, that it, one of the thingsthat really inspires me to do this
work is the, um, the fact that itis an actual, genuine community.
I mean, it's differentthan a lot of festivals.

(01:25:59):
You pay your money, you go getentertained and consume and go home.
Like this is, this is very special
family.

Stevan (01:26:09):
See you guys.
thank you

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