December 17, 2024 • 25 mins
Fadie Arabo's story is about uncovering the Chaldean identity: What it means to him and how it has changed since coming to Stanford.People interviewed:Dr. Dean Winslow: Medical doctorTerezsa Arabo: Young ChaldeanRami Sarafa: Harvard BusinessKen Alyass: Harvard HistorianZiyad Gawis: El-Cajon ChaldeanZena Roumaya: MotherCal Abbo: Chaldean News EditorJohn Kurikuz: Chaldean Stanford Alumni
Research drawn from the following sources:
- https://www.chaldeannews.com/
- https://www.chaldeannews.com/2023-content/2023/12/1/who-are-the-chaldeans
- Music Acknowledgementshttps://www.soundsnap.com/tags/cashier: 1https://pixabay.com/music/search/flight/: 3https://www.soundboard.com/sb/sound/1105823#google_vignette: california lovehttps://pixabay.com/music/search/arab/: 4
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Fadie (00:01):
I am not Iraqi.
I am Aldean.
John (00:14):
So it was a lot of trial and error, to be honest with you
because, um, you, you get differentreactions based off of what you say.
And, and quite frankly, you know,being Chaldean, like, there are many
aspects of, of who we are, right?
So I say, well, maybe we're IraqiChristian, you know, try that.
Um, but that's also kind of broad too,because not all Iraqi Christians are Ian.
Fadie (00:46):
That's John Cariocas, a Stanford alumni now living in Guadalajara, Mexico.
He's a father born Michigander in eu.
I think boiled down.
And I'm
speaking from kind of a historicalmindset, a historian, um, the best
way, the most concise way would belike Chaldeans are descendants of some
(01:10):
of the very first groups of people inthe Middle East who are Christian at.
And that's Ken Elias, a kan American Harvard PhD student
studying race, class, and crimeduring the late 20th century.
(01:48):
Mesopotamia, often called Thecradle of civilization, is located
between the Tigris and EuphratesRiver in present day, Iraq.
It's an ancient region that gave riseto some of his history's earliest
and most influential cultures.
The Chaldeans, who emerged around theninth century, BCE, where significant
people in Mesopotamian culture who wereknown as skilled astronomers and made
(02:12):
important contributions to early science.
Mathematics and business.
As a Chaldean myself, Isometimes never knew who I was.
As I tried to explain myidentity to others, I felt deeply
generalized about my identity.
Thinking about Chaldean made merealize that we are in a unique
(02:33):
position, a culture without a country.
If you said you were a Lebanese orSudanese, chances are that people know the
country you or your ancestors are from.
But that's not the case for me.
Although there was a place called Calcenturies ago, it is now called Iraq.
This division has led Chaldeans to beput in a unique place when it comes to
(02:58):
uncovering their identity to newcomers.
In this podcast, I take you onan adventure into discovering
who Chaldeans are and why theyimmigrated into two very unique.
American cities.
(03:29):
Hi, my name's Fadi and I'mcurrently a junior at Stanford
University studying biology.
I grew up in Ster Heights, Michigan,a city just north of Detroit, filled
with neon red illuminating Arabicsigns, the smell of kebab and lia, a
traditional beans stew, and a placewhere garages were filled with sofas
and fridges open for guests to carryprayers and conversations into the night.
(03:52):
It's has crickets, chirped.
It's also home to one of thegreatest kan populations in the us.
Growing up, I never really had theneed to explain my identity to others.
(04:15):
I was kan and so were myneighbors and the local butcher,
and many of my teachers too.
But when I left home and cameto Stanford, everything changed.
It was at Stanford where I struggledto explain even to fellow Arabs
that I was not simply an Iraqi.
(04:36):
I.
Put so much more.
(05:05):
John describes how difficult it wasfor him to explain his identity when
he was an undergrad at Stanford.
John (05:15):
Um, so it gets complicated, but yeah, I mean, uh, it
really depended on the context.
Fadie's Mom (05:21):
Yeah,
John (05:22):
I would explain it.
Um, so it's very complicated.
So I think I, I kind of initiallytried different things, right?
I mean, to try to help people understand.
I, I might have told people sometimes.
Uh, well Iraqi.
Mm-hmm.
But that's a very general termbecause Iraq is a diverse country Yes.
Of many different, uh, populations.
Um, so I, you know, wouldn't wanta person to kind of confuse us
(05:44):
with something else that we're not.
Mm-hmm.
Fadie (05:54):
John pretty much summarizes my first interaction of how I
would go about explaining myidentity to others at Stanford.
I am Iraqi, I would say deeplygeneralizing my identity to others.
It was a shame I feltto myself, to my people.
I mean, Aldes have such a richhistory that distinctly separates us
(06:18):
for hundreds of years.
You have been a persecuted people.
That's Cal.
He's a writer for the ChaldeanNews, a Detroit based Maine News
network for the majority of Chaldean.
He writes on topics from religionto explaining who we are to others.
He explains how persecution of Chaldeansled them to flee their ancestral
(06:40):
homeland and of present day Iraq.
The most recent reasons for migrationare religious persecution, ethnic
persecution, poor economic conditionsduring the sanctions against
Iraq and poor security conditionsafter the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
(07:04):
For hundreds of years, Kurdishand Turkish tribes are constantly
attacking your villages.
You have no country, you have noarmy, and it's while you have a
really good life in your own community
Fadie's Mom (07:21):
mm-hmm.
Faithful, um, you know, reallygood village values and traditions.
Yeah, I, I don't blame anyone forwanting more and wanting safety.
Fadie (08:08):
The language of Chaldeans is unique from other Iraqis because their
ancestral language is not Arabic, buta dialect of Aramaic also referred
to as Chaldean as Syrian or Syriac.
See, although most modern dayimmigrants from Iraq, including
those from 2003 onward.
Spoke Arabic, the earliest Chaldeanimmigrants spoke only Chaldean,
(08:32):
which they called the Jesus language.
Since it's believed to be the languagethat Jesus Christ spoke during
his life, this is also a reasonwhy Chaldeans have such a strong
connection to their Catholic faith.
Ken discusses this.
We are, um, Syriac speakersare make speakers so.
(08:55):
The word is in, in the language.
Um, you know, pe Christians who speakthe army language, uh, and follow the
eastern rights of the the ChristianChurch, um, is, is ultimately who we are
at Stanford.
I took a class with Dr.
Dean Winslow of the medical department.
(09:15):
Dr.
Winslow is an American physicianwho served in the military in Iraq.
Okay.
After telling him about my Chaldeanidentity, he asked the class if anyone
knew what language Chaldean spoke.
No hands were raised.
They're the only people that stillspeak the language that Jesus spoke.
Dr.
(09:35):
Winslow further described his interactionswith Caldeans when he was based in Iraq.
He talks about meeting amuktar, the Arabic word for a
senior person in the village.
And,
you know, and, uh, you know, andI said, you know, I'm Colonel
Winslow, but you can call me Dean.
The Muktar then replied.
Mm-hmm.
He said, I am Emmanuel.
(09:56):
Mm-hmm.
And I do, I I, I almost startedcrying because it was so powerful.
Mm-hmm.
And I didn't realize before we came intothat village that this was, you know,
a, uh, a, a Chaldean Christian mm-hmm.
Uh, village.
Fadie's Mom (10:09):
Mm-hmm.
And a very moving story that actuallythey, along with, you know, the
Muslim Kurds, you know, basicallyhad many of their villages destroyed.
Fadie (10:21):
To me, this interaction meant all the more to spread
to others what it meant to be.
Chaldean being Chaldeanmeant being unique.
It meant awkward conversations tonewcomers and being put in a new position.
(10:45):
The earliest Chaldeans began immigratingto the United States in the 1920s
because of opportunities to work on theHenry Ford Automotive Assembly lines.
Many also came in the 1980s wherethe regime of Saddam Hussein
restricted religious freedoms.
Yet they're spread into theUnited States was not random.
In fact, Caldeans populated intotwo major American cities, Detroit,
(11:08):
Michigan, and El Cajon, California.
Ken and Cal both discussedthe economic motives driving
kde migration into Detroit.
There's a rumor that was going around.
I don't know how seriously it wastaken, but it's metaphorical, right?
It is, yes.
Like even the streets are paved withgold and a few pioneering people.
(11:28):
Realized that, uh, Detroit was agreat place to start because it
had all these job opportunities.
Well, Henry Ford $5 a dayattracted people and they there.
In addition to the economic motives bringing Chaldeans to Detroit,
there was also another reason laying deepwithin Chaldean custom and tradition,
(11:50):
Rami Rafa, author of From Mesopotamia toMichigan and a Harvard University alumni
where he studied government economicsand Middle Eastern studies notes this,
you know, it's not like we wentto a random city by itself.
So one is to work in theindustrial, uh, plants, but two.
Because they knew friends or cousins orpeople or community members that spoke
(12:13):
the language and are from where theywere that had settled there, right?
And because of that, they, theyhave something to build on, right?
And so this is how immigrantcommunities always function.
Detroit was a city that was new to Arab immigrants.
(12:37):
Detroit became the placefor Chaldeans to flourish.
Ken further emphasizes this point
and then, uh, specifically forDetroit, when this population
started to kind of form, you know,it created this special kind of
acculturation cycle where, you know.
You.
You know, like your uncle or yourbrother will have a business and have
(12:59):
something set up and it would justbe much easier for you to go there,
to be sponsored by them, supportedby them working in the stores.
(13:23):
The stores, many Aldean owners were used to the hustle
and bustle of Iraqi culture.
They were innovators, problemsolvers, and arguably business people.
Um, so by 1967, I think the,the one stat I read was like 300
independent stores were owned by KDE
(13:44):
during the influx of Kde immigration into Detroit in the 1980s.
Many Caldeans opened local businessesat a time when below interest rates
reinforced their entrepreneurial spirit.
Caldeans stores included partysupply shops, liquor stores,
and small grocery stores.
By the 1992, there were over 75,000caldeans living in the Detroit and
(14:09):
surrounding metro Detroit area.
(14:44):
After doing more research on kdeimmigration, I was surprised to learn
that there was a large populationof Caldeans 2000 miles away from
Detroit in El Cajon, California.
So I took a flight there to investigate.
Airplane noise (15:12):
It's now safe for you to turn on.
Use your laptop, make sure your electronicdevices remain in airplane mode.
Road
move.
He turn
signator in.
Can have you stand, wait for aline for this Ford portion of the
(15:32):
aircraft for the Ford Laboratory.
You see a redx right over numberone Ford Laboratory occupied.
Please that your seat wait for thepassenger to return to their before
you come to this laboratory let's
the church and the community.
That's only thing.
Yeah.
And I lost the people like I see likehometown signs and like I feel back home.
Fadie (15:59):
That's aat.
He tells me his story of comingto El Cajon and how for him, it
was his faith that drew him there.
El Cajon is home to the secondlargest population of Caldeans in the
United States behind Metro Detroit.
Roughly 50,000 caldeans live there.
El Cajon proved to be an especiallyattractive destination for many displaced
(16:22):
Chaldeans from Iraq who saw a new locale,one that featured plenty of sunshine.
Many Chaldean Catholic churchesand a relaxed, easygoing lifestyle
similar to what they wereaccustomed to in Iraqi villages.
Rami mentions this immigration cycle.
This is how immigrantcommunities always function.
(16:43):
And the reason why is because then youknow, you're not as worried that, um,
there's someone who speaks your language.
There's community organizations,there's churches or mosques.
There's.
You know, and then it kind of snowballs
and El Cajon to many is truly Iraq in a different location.
To me it felt like Detroit just withnicer weather, but to locals it meant
(17:06):
so much more signs in many of thecity shops and restaurants are in
Chaldean or Arabic, leading some toDub East Main Street as little Baghdad.
When talking to John abouthis Stanford experience.
He talked about how going back toMichigan was both a long distance
and expensive, but he mentionsthat being Kian there is a benefit.
John (17:29):
And so I, I ended up staying in California, but mm-hmm.
Uh, kind of a, a compromise.
And one of the benefits of being,you know, Chian and a member
of the Calen community is, youknow, we're close knit community.
So I actually had some distant relativesand second cousins in, in El Cajon,
you know, in the San Diego area.
Fadie (17:50):
Community.
It's what Chaldeans are known for.
And while this unassuming smallcity tucked away in the outskirts of
San Diego doesn't initially scream,Chaldean Chaldeans have made it both
IT and Detroit, their new homeland.
(18:48):
Yeah.
As the years progress, a true definingfactor of caldeans has seemed to be
slowly diminishing their religion.
Cal talks about the sort ofsecularization that seems to occur.
I think a big reason for thator why our, uh, culture or
religion has changed mm-hmm.
(19:08):
Is actually because of our geography.
Mm.
We lost that kind of closeness.
And we lost that kind of minority status.
Fadie's Mom (19:16):
Yeah.
So we're, we're kind of becomingreally Americanized in our faith.
Fadie (19:43):
Becoming Americanized in our faith as a people who have already had
to struggle with identifying who we are,it has become more and more difficult
given the decline in a defining factor.
CT Chaldeans, the CatholicChurch, acted as so much more.
Ken shares his thoughts on churchparticipation in the community.
(20:04):
Um, so I think just generally mm-hmm.
It would decline.
Yeah.
Um, the big reason why church and churchgenerally and people's lives, you know,
through the ages had been a big dealwas that that was the institution.
It owned the land, it provided the jobs.
Um, you, it guarantee you a, a, aslot in the cemetery to be buried.
Fadie's Mom (20:24):
Mm-hmm.
Um, it just functioned, um,in, in all these very useful
necessary ways in our side today.
So many other avenues,sources function that way.
Fadie (20:37):
And as Rami notes, it's not just that church participation is declining, it
may be that identity of who caldeans are.
There's a lot of intermarriage.
Um, and, and because of that intermixing,you know, I mean, you, you know,
the way it goes within two or threegenerations, you know, do I think that.
The great grandkids of, you know,someone who marries a white Christian
(21:00):
today will be as loyal to theChaldean Church as our parents were.
Mm-hmm.
No,
historically, many Chaldeans married other Chaldeans, but as inner
marriage becomes more common, theChaldean identity may be at jeopardy.
As a result, the future might holdmore uncertainties into how Aldes
are classified as distinct people
(21:36):
as we have found out already,Caldeans are business people at heart.
They know how to bargainand get things done.
Yet the future of calon ownedbusinesses, especially in Detroit,
is becoming somewhat obsolete duein part to the 1967 Detroit Riot, a
time of racial and ethnic violencebetween kan and African Americans.
(22:00):
Like 400 and 500 call ends have been, uh,murdered and there's places of business.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, since the 1960s.
Ken describes the violence as a shifting point where Chaldean
started to reconsider their future.
Detroit was now becoming filled withcrime and debts started to reach an
all time high for Chaldean shop owners.
(22:24):
One thing we did and, and thinkingback about it, it's like this
was really bad, but like wheneverproducts expired on the shelf.
My uncle would send me intothe highway with like rubbing
alcohol and a paper towel.
Mm-hmm.
And he'd tell me to like,wipe off the expiration bin.
Mm-hmm.
Central Detroit, a place whereCaldeans had created a home for
themselves was becoming a placewhere it was hard to find Caldeans.
(22:47):
1967, it became kind of two things.
Mm.
This exodus of paulinfrom living in Detroit.
Mm-hmm.
They would kind of, this iskind of the beginnings of the
kind of move to the suburbs.
And as Ken notes, a new type of architecture started to consume Detroit,
what I call like riot architecture.
Architecture, including barbed wire fencing in multiple security cameras.
(23:12):
It was not without reason.
Away from kind of this likesocial neighbor relationship
Fadie's Mom (23:18):
mm-hmm.
To this more like a get in, get out.
Mm-hmm.
You know, do
your commerce and, and leave.
We have to get home and, and, and survive.
Fadie (23:54):
My own experience explaining the KDE identity to others has
not been easy, nor is it somethingthat can be done quickly.
Not surprisingly, this is an experienceshared by many other Caldeans as well.
Cal says it best when he says.
So, uh, all of that, if you couldexplain it in a couple sentences mm-hmm.
(24:17):
You'd be a magician.
I think
John summarizes how I see my kde heritage.
John (24:24):
I think we're, we're, we're an outstanding people, right?
There's so many positive traits about us.
We are entrepreneurial, we'reambitious, we're hardworking.
Um, we, you know, we find away to, to get things done.
Fadie (24:37):
When I first started this journey, explaining what it meant to
be, KDE was messy and complicated.
Now, even though it stillis, I have a better way of
conveying my identity to others.
So the next time someoneasks Chaldean, what's that?
I always take the long route home.
(24:58):
So in the words of my own mother,
this episode was produced by me FadiAbu, as part of the Braiding grant
and Stanford Storytelling Project.
Music for this episode wasfrom Blue Docs Sessions.
(25:19):
Thank you to all the wonderfulinterviewees and others who were
instrumental in helping to putthis amazing podcast together.
In addition, thank you to Melissa,my mentor, Laura, and Dawn for
helping me along podcast journey.
I am not Iraqi.
I am Aldean.
John (00:14):
So it was a lot of trial and error, to be honest with you
because, um, you, you get differentreactions based off of what you say.
And, and quite frankly, you know,being Chaldean, like, there are many
aspects of, of who we are, right?
So I say, well, maybe we're IraqiChristian, you know, try that.
Um, but that's also kind of broad too,because not all Iraqi Christians are Ian.
Fadie (00:46):
That's John Cariocas, a Stanford alumni now living in Guadalajara, Mexico.
He's a father born Michigander in eu.
I think boiled down.
And I'm
speaking from kind of a historicalmindset, a historian, um, the best
way, the most concise way would belike Chaldeans are descendants of some
(01:10):
of the very first groups of people inthe Middle East who are Christian at.
And that's Ken Elias, a kan American Harvard PhD student
studying race, class, and crimeduring the late 20th century.
(01:48):
Mesopotamia, often called Thecradle of civilization, is located
between the Tigris and EuphratesRiver in present day, Iraq.
It's an ancient region that gave riseto some of his history's earliest
and most influential cultures.
The Chaldeans, who emerged around theninth century, BCE, where significant
people in Mesopotamian culture who wereknown as skilled astronomers and made
(02:12):
important contributions to early science.
Mathematics and business.
As a Chaldean myself, Isometimes never knew who I was.
As I tried to explain myidentity to others, I felt deeply
generalized about my identity.
Thinking about Chaldean made merealize that we are in a unique
(02:33):
position, a culture without a country.
If you said you were a Lebanese orSudanese, chances are that people know the
country you or your ancestors are from.
But that's not the case for me.
Although there was a place called Calcenturies ago, it is now called Iraq.
This division has led Chaldeans to beput in a unique place when it comes to
(02:58):
uncovering their identity to newcomers.
In this podcast, I take you onan adventure into discovering
who Chaldeans are and why theyimmigrated into two very unique.
American cities.
(03:29):
Hi, my name's Fadi and I'mcurrently a junior at Stanford
University studying biology.
I grew up in Ster Heights, Michigan,a city just north of Detroit, filled
with neon red illuminating Arabicsigns, the smell of kebab and lia, a
traditional beans stew, and a placewhere garages were filled with sofas
and fridges open for guests to carryprayers and conversations into the night.
(03:52):
It's has crickets, chirped.
It's also home to one of thegreatest kan populations in the us.
Growing up, I never really had theneed to explain my identity to others.
(04:15):
I was kan and so were myneighbors and the local butcher,
and many of my teachers too.
But when I left home and cameto Stanford, everything changed.
It was at Stanford where I struggledto explain even to fellow Arabs
that I was not simply an Iraqi.
(04:36):
I.
Put so much more.
(05:05):
John describes how difficult it wasfor him to explain his identity when
he was an undergrad at Stanford.
John (05:15):
Um, so it gets complicated, but yeah, I mean, uh, it
really depended on the context.
Fadie's Mom (05:21):
Yeah,
John (05:22):
I would explain it.
Um, so it's very complicated.
So I think I, I kind of initiallytried different things, right?
I mean, to try to help people understand.
I, I might have told people sometimes.
Uh, well Iraqi.
Mm-hmm.
But that's a very general termbecause Iraq is a diverse country Yes.
Of many different, uh, populations.
Um, so I, you know, wouldn't wanta person to kind of confuse us
(05:44):
with something else that we're not.
Mm-hmm.
Fadie (05:54):
John pretty much summarizes my first interaction of how I
would go about explaining myidentity to others at Stanford.
I am Iraqi, I would say deeplygeneralizing my identity to others.
It was a shame I feltto myself, to my people.
I mean, Aldes have such a richhistory that distinctly separates us
(06:18):
for hundreds of years.
You have been a persecuted people.
That's Cal.
He's a writer for the ChaldeanNews, a Detroit based Maine News
network for the majority of Chaldean.
He writes on topics from religionto explaining who we are to others.
He explains how persecution of Chaldeansled them to flee their ancestral
(06:40):
homeland and of present day Iraq.
The most recent reasons for migrationare religious persecution, ethnic
persecution, poor economic conditionsduring the sanctions against
Iraq and poor security conditionsafter the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
(07:04):
For hundreds of years, Kurdishand Turkish tribes are constantly
attacking your villages.
You have no country, you have noarmy, and it's while you have a
really good life in your own community
Fadie's Mom (07:21):
mm-hmm.
Faithful, um, you know, reallygood village values and traditions.
Yeah, I, I don't blame anyone forwanting more and wanting safety.
Fadie (08:08):
The language of Chaldeans is unique from other Iraqis because their
ancestral language is not Arabic, buta dialect of Aramaic also referred
to as Chaldean as Syrian or Syriac.
See, although most modern dayimmigrants from Iraq, including
those from 2003 onward.
Spoke Arabic, the earliest Chaldeanimmigrants spoke only Chaldean,
(08:32):
which they called the Jesus language.
Since it's believed to be the languagethat Jesus Christ spoke during
his life, this is also a reasonwhy Chaldeans have such a strong
connection to their Catholic faith.
Ken discusses this.
We are, um, Syriac speakersare make speakers so.
(08:55):
The word is in, in the language.
Um, you know, pe Christians who speakthe army language, uh, and follow the
eastern rights of the the ChristianChurch, um, is, is ultimately who we are
at Stanford.
I took a class with Dr.
Dean Winslow of the medical department.
(09:15):
Dr.
Winslow is an American physicianwho served in the military in Iraq.
Okay.
After telling him about my Chaldeanidentity, he asked the class if anyone
knew what language Chaldean spoke.
No hands were raised.
They're the only people that stillspeak the language that Jesus spoke.
Dr.
(09:35):
Winslow further described his interactionswith Caldeans when he was based in Iraq.
He talks about meeting amuktar, the Arabic word for a
senior person in the village.
And,
you know, and, uh, you know, andI said, you know, I'm Colonel
Winslow, but you can call me Dean.
The Muktar then replied.
Mm-hmm.
He said, I am Emmanuel.
(09:56):
Mm-hmm.
And I do, I I, I almost startedcrying because it was so powerful.
Mm-hmm.
And I didn't realize before we came intothat village that this was, you know,
a, uh, a, a Chaldean Christian mm-hmm.
Uh, village.
Fadie's Mom (10:09):
Mm-hmm.
And a very moving story that actuallythey, along with, you know, the
Muslim Kurds, you know, basicallyhad many of their villages destroyed.
Fadie (10:21):
To me, this interaction meant all the more to spread
to others what it meant to be.
Chaldean being Chaldeanmeant being unique.
It meant awkward conversations tonewcomers and being put in a new position.
(10:45):
The earliest Chaldeans began immigratingto the United States in the 1920s
because of opportunities to work on theHenry Ford Automotive Assembly lines.
Many also came in the 1980s wherethe regime of Saddam Hussein
restricted religious freedoms.
Yet they're spread into theUnited States was not random.
In fact, Caldeans populated intotwo major American cities, Detroit,
(11:08):
Michigan, and El Cajon, California.
Ken and Cal both discussedthe economic motives driving
kde migration into Detroit.
There's a rumor that was going around.
I don't know how seriously it wastaken, but it's metaphorical, right?
It is, yes.
Like even the streets are paved withgold and a few pioneering people.
(11:28):
Realized that, uh, Detroit was agreat place to start because it
had all these job opportunities.
Well, Henry Ford $5 a dayattracted people and they there.
In addition to the economic motives bringing Chaldeans to Detroit,
there was also another reason laying deepwithin Chaldean custom and tradition,
(11:50):
Rami Rafa, author of From Mesopotamia toMichigan and a Harvard University alumni
where he studied government economicsand Middle Eastern studies notes this,
you know, it's not like we wentto a random city by itself.
So one is to work in theindustrial, uh, plants, but two.
Because they knew friends or cousins orpeople or community members that spoke
(12:13):
the language and are from where theywere that had settled there, right?
And because of that, they, theyhave something to build on, right?
And so this is how immigrantcommunities always function.
Detroit was a city that was new to Arab immigrants.
(12:37):
Detroit became the placefor Chaldeans to flourish.
Ken further emphasizes this point
and then, uh, specifically forDetroit, when this population
started to kind of form, you know,it created this special kind of
acculturation cycle where, you know.
You.
You know, like your uncle or yourbrother will have a business and have
(12:59):
something set up and it would justbe much easier for you to go there,
to be sponsored by them, supportedby them working in the stores.
(13:23):
The stores, many Aldean owners were used to the hustle
and bustle of Iraqi culture.
They were innovators, problemsolvers, and arguably business people.
Um, so by 1967, I think the,the one stat I read was like 300
independent stores were owned by KDE
(13:44):
during the influx of Kde immigration into Detroit in the 1980s.
Many Caldeans opened local businessesat a time when below interest rates
reinforced their entrepreneurial spirit.
Caldeans stores included partysupply shops, liquor stores,
and small grocery stores.
By the 1992, there were over 75,000caldeans living in the Detroit and
(14:09):
surrounding metro Detroit area.
(14:44):
After doing more research on kdeimmigration, I was surprised to learn
that there was a large populationof Caldeans 2000 miles away from
Detroit in El Cajon, California.
So I took a flight there to investigate.
Airplane noise (15:12):
It's now safe for you to turn on.
Use your laptop, make sure your electronicdevices remain in airplane mode.
Road
move.
He turn
signator in.
Can have you stand, wait for aline for this Ford portion of the
(15:32):
aircraft for the Ford Laboratory.
You see a redx right over numberone Ford Laboratory occupied.
Please that your seat wait for thepassenger to return to their before
you come to this laboratory let's
the church and the community.
That's only thing.
Yeah.
And I lost the people like I see likehometown signs and like I feel back home.
Fadie (15:59):
That's aat.
He tells me his story of comingto El Cajon and how for him, it
was his faith that drew him there.
El Cajon is home to the secondlargest population of Caldeans in the
United States behind Metro Detroit.
Roughly 50,000 caldeans live there.
El Cajon proved to be an especiallyattractive destination for many displaced
(16:22):
Chaldeans from Iraq who saw a new locale,one that featured plenty of sunshine.
Many Chaldean Catholic churchesand a relaxed, easygoing lifestyle
similar to what they wereaccustomed to in Iraqi villages.
Rami mentions this immigration cycle.
This is how immigrantcommunities always function.
(16:43):
And the reason why is because then youknow, you're not as worried that, um,
there's someone who speaks your language.
There's community organizations,there's churches or mosques.
There's.
You know, and then it kind of snowballs
and El Cajon to many is truly Iraq in a different location.
To me it felt like Detroit just withnicer weather, but to locals it meant
(17:06):
so much more signs in many of thecity shops and restaurants are in
Chaldean or Arabic, leading some toDub East Main Street as little Baghdad.
When talking to John abouthis Stanford experience.
He talked about how going back toMichigan was both a long distance
and expensive, but he mentionsthat being Kian there is a benefit.
John (17:29):
And so I, I ended up staying in California, but mm-hmm.
Uh, kind of a, a compromise.
And one of the benefits of being,you know, Chian and a member
of the Calen community is, youknow, we're close knit community.
So I actually had some distant relativesand second cousins in, in El Cajon,
you know, in the San Diego area.
Fadie (17:50):
Community.
It's what Chaldeans are known for.
And while this unassuming smallcity tucked away in the outskirts of
San Diego doesn't initially scream,Chaldean Chaldeans have made it both
IT and Detroit, their new homeland.
(18:48):
Yeah.
As the years progress, a true definingfactor of caldeans has seemed to be
slowly diminishing their religion.
Cal talks about the sort ofsecularization that seems to occur.
I think a big reason for thator why our, uh, culture or
religion has changed mm-hmm.
(19:08):
Is actually because of our geography.
Mm.
We lost that kind of closeness.
And we lost that kind of minority status.
Fadie's Mom (19:16):
Yeah.
So we're, we're kind of becomingreally Americanized in our faith.
Fadie (19:43):
Becoming Americanized in our faith as a people who have already had
to struggle with identifying who we are,it has become more and more difficult
given the decline in a defining factor.
CT Chaldeans, the CatholicChurch, acted as so much more.
Ken shares his thoughts on churchparticipation in the community.
(20:04):
Um, so I think just generally mm-hmm.
It would decline.
Yeah.
Um, the big reason why church and churchgenerally and people's lives, you know,
through the ages had been a big dealwas that that was the institution.
It owned the land, it provided the jobs.
Um, you, it guarantee you a, a, aslot in the cemetery to be buried.
Fadie's Mom (20:24):
Mm-hmm.
Um, it just functioned, um,in, in all these very useful
necessary ways in our side today.
So many other avenues,sources function that way.
Fadie (20:37):
And as Rami notes, it's not just that church participation is declining, it
may be that identity of who caldeans are.
There's a lot of intermarriage.
Um, and, and because of that intermixing,you know, I mean, you, you know,
the way it goes within two or threegenerations, you know, do I think that.
The great grandkids of, you know,someone who marries a white Christian
(21:00):
today will be as loyal to theChaldean Church as our parents were.
Mm-hmm.
No,
historically, many Chaldeans married other Chaldeans, but as inner
marriage becomes more common, theChaldean identity may be at jeopardy.
As a result, the future might holdmore uncertainties into how Aldes
are classified as distinct people
(21:36):
as we have found out already,Caldeans are business people at heart.
They know how to bargainand get things done.
Yet the future of calon ownedbusinesses, especially in Detroit,
is becoming somewhat obsolete duein part to the 1967 Detroit Riot, a
time of racial and ethnic violencebetween kan and African Americans.
(22:00):
Like 400 and 500 call ends have been, uh,murdered and there's places of business.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, since the 1960s.
Ken describes the violence as a shifting point where Chaldean
started to reconsider their future.
Detroit was now becoming filled withcrime and debts started to reach an
all time high for Chaldean shop owners.
(22:24):
One thing we did and, and thinkingback about it, it's like this
was really bad, but like wheneverproducts expired on the shelf.
My uncle would send me intothe highway with like rubbing
alcohol and a paper towel.
Mm-hmm.
And he'd tell me to like,wipe off the expiration bin.
Mm-hmm.
Central Detroit, a place whereCaldeans had created a home for
themselves was becoming a placewhere it was hard to find Caldeans.
(22:47):
1967, it became kind of two things.
Mm.
This exodus of paulinfrom living in Detroit.
Mm-hmm.
They would kind of, this iskind of the beginnings of the
kind of move to the suburbs.
And as Ken notes, a new type of architecture started to consume Detroit,
what I call like riot architecture.
Architecture, including barbed wire fencing in multiple security cameras.
(23:12):
It was not without reason.
Away from kind of this likesocial neighbor relationship
Fadie's Mom (23:18):
mm-hmm.
To this more like a get in, get out.
Mm-hmm.
You know, do
your commerce and, and leave.
We have to get home and, and, and survive.
Fadie (23:54):
My own experience explaining the KDE identity to others has
not been easy, nor is it somethingthat can be done quickly.
Not surprisingly, this is an experienceshared by many other Caldeans as well.
Cal says it best when he says.
So, uh, all of that, if you couldexplain it in a couple sentences mm-hmm.
(24:17):
You'd be a magician.
I think
John summarizes how I see my kde heritage.
John (24:24):
I think we're, we're, we're an outstanding people, right?
There's so many positive traits about us.
We are entrepreneurial, we'reambitious, we're hardworking.
Um, we, you know, we find away to, to get things done.
Fadie (24:37):
When I first started this journey, explaining what it meant to
be, KDE was messy and complicated.
Now, even though it stillis, I have a better way of
conveying my identity to others.
So the next time someoneasks Chaldean, what's that?
I always take the long route home.
(24:58):
So in the words of my own mother,
this episode was produced by me FadiAbu, as part of the Braiding grant
and Stanford Storytelling Project.
Music for this episode wasfrom Blue Docs Sessions.
(25:19):
Thank you to all the wonderfulinterviewees and others who were
instrumental in helping to putthis amazing podcast together.
In addition, thank you to Melissa,my mentor, Laura, and Dawn for
helping me along podcast journey.
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