March 14, 2025 • 30 mins
Ticiano Sgarbi, founder of Sgarbi Digital Marketing, is on a mission to decipher the complexities of SEO. Many businesses are daunted by the idea of investing in search engine optimization, often opting for the instant gratification of ads. Ticiano tells us why this might be a flawed strategy and how tailored SEO can yield sustainable results over time, ensuring businesses truly thrive in the digital realm. Ticiano also addresses common pitfalls in international SEO, sharing real-world experiences that can help businesses expand their reach without falling into common traps. Plus, we dive into the limitations of large language models and what they can't achieve in the realm of personalized digital marketing strategies. This conversation is packed with insights that are perfect for marketing enthusiasts and business owners alike.
Listen on Podbean:
https://brainworkframework.podbean.com/
Connect with Ticiano Sgarbi:
Company Website: https://sgarbi.eu, https://x.com/sgarbiwood
Connect with Chris Troka:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-troka-3a093058/
Website: https://focused-biz.com/
Website: https://christroka.com/
#brainwork #framework #business #SEO #DigitalMarketing
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
If you really want to talk to theseaudiences and go towards more high end
(00:04):
services or products, you want to havea better experience, a better journey,
more demanding, you need to speak theirlanguage, the way they speak English.
You're listening to BrainworkFramework, a business and marketing
podcast brought to you by focus- biz.
com.
Chris Troka (00:21):
Welcome back to this week's episode.
We have a very special guest.
We have Tiziano Scarbi.
He is the founder ofScarbi Digital Marketing.
He helps businesses thrive in theonline real estate space with more
search engine optimization but thisgoes beyond just local and national.
This is international SEO.
And we're going to talk more about adsversus SEO, what LLMs can't do and how AI
(00:42):
is going to change the landscape of SEO.
Tiziano, so great to meet you.
How are you doing today?
Thanks for coming on.
Ticiano Sgarbi (00:48):
I'm doing great, Chris.
Thanks for having me.
Chris Troka (00:51):
Absolutely.
So today is day two ofour podcast recording.
We talked off air for an hour andeven 30 minutes before we started
today, just because we were havingsuch great conversation about the
world and marketing and business andcreativity, all those fun things.
We always like to ask our entrepreneurs,tell us about your business journey.
What were you doing before?
And how did that kind of leadyou into what you're doing today?
Ticiano Sgarbi (01:12):
Okay.
Now you surprised me.
So before answering you,it's part of the journey.
When I was a kid, I kind of selftaught myself how to write at home.
I start playing like with cuttingnewspapers and even encyclopedias.
I love to do that and put words togetherand that's what I did when I was like, I
have the pictures two, three, even four.
(01:33):
Then I went to school.
I kind of knew alreadyhow to speak and to write.
I studied and then my familyhad a textile company.
I worked on that for a longtime and eventually I quit
doing that and started over.
And I was like kind of thisSEO thing because it was a
crossroad of marketing and IT.
(01:54):
Marketing was what I used to doin textiles, like visiting clients
and it's more than sales, like,promoting the business and showing
possibilities and that kind ofthing and representing the company.
So I had that already andit was always a passion.
I also thought myself how to codewhen I was eight the first time
of COBOL which was not useful butit was fun somehow and then at
(02:18):
different times I coded a little bit.
Now I'm keeping the promise,not starting with Python,
which had been trending lately.
So far so good and then I starteddoing SEO, I started like for just for
fun indexing ranking things and thenI started doing that's a business.
And I started the agency already10 years ago and since I always
(02:39):
traveled quite a bit and then.
I mean, I have people I knoweverywhere and word of mouth is
always so important in services.
And I started getting clients indifferent countries and places and
niches and industries and here we go.
So that's what I've beendoing for the last 10 years.
Following SEO daily withall the ups and downs.
Chris Troka (03:01):
That's very exciting journey.
I like that you were able to blend thatunique experience skill set of the I.
T. with more of the marketing side aswell because SEO can kind of be that
fun blend of the creative aspect butalso very technical because we really
get into the metrics and the dataand keyword trends and all of that.
What should businesses be lookingfor who want to improve their
(03:23):
SEO, their presence online?
Do you have any recommendations for otherpeople who kind of want to dip their toes
into SEO to see that it actually works?
Ticiano Sgarbi (03:31):
Just to understand your question, when looking for an SEO vendor
or when they want to approach SEO somehow?
Chris Troka (03:38):
Yeah, I think first, how they would approach SEO just themselves.
If they're kind of a smaller operation, ifthey're a startup and they're on a budget
here just to start there and then maybeyou can go into what to look for in SEO
vendors because I'm sure there's quitea few in many different industries that
make some promises that can't deliver.
And you can just provide morerealistic results for what that means.
Ticiano Sgarbi (04:00):
Correct.
So I would say for any business thatwants to start doing some SEO, the very
first step is like creating content.
You need to understand youraudience, what they are looking for
and that depends on which businessyou can be even a non profit.
It's not that it needs to be businessbut what kind of message of information
(04:23):
your audience is looking for and startcrafting content around that because
that's essentially what SEO does.
Like it's optimizing for searchresults for those queries
that people are looking for.
So you need to understand ifyou work with gardening tools,
what people that are doing.
That gardening as a hobby, or eventheir pros, what they are looking for
(04:45):
products, for techniques, for ideas,for pictures, for what may start
brainstorming and doing that and publishthat would be the very first step I would
say and be unique as much as you can.
I think we'll talk about thatlater when we touch AI maybe.
The second thing when approachingan SEO vendor, there's so much here.
(05:05):
I would say be aware ofcertainties and miracles.
What do you mean by that?
When we talk about SEO, up to now,at least it's searching engines
and Google is the main player.
We don't know for the future at leastfor the last 20 years it has been.
And after all, it's not a public domain.
(05:27):
I mean, it's Google's game here.
So we don't know the rules.
We have some recommendations.
We have best practices, the qualityguidelines that they publish and
they update quite often right now.
They have people that speak with SEOcommunity regularly, they respond
messages on social media, or even emailssometimes conventions where they are
(05:51):
available to talk in so we can havesome hints but we don't quite know.
And we don't also know whatour competitors are doing.
When I say competitors is anyone tryingto rank for the same things as you,
it could, so we could be even nota business competitor but they are
looking for the same real estate onthe SERPs as you, we don't know what
(06:14):
they are doing fully and what they aregoing and so we don't control that.
And if any SEO agents tells you, youcan be sure we are going to nail, we
are going to get those positions foryour web pages, you should really ask
twice and try to understand how theydo that because no one can manage that
(06:35):
we do our best to promote our client'scontent and website in general but we
can't game the system and no one can.
It's a bit like a lawyer.
I mean, they can do their best, theydo that every day, like we do SEO,
but ultimately the decision is noton their hands and that's a bit of
the SEO and some people, they promiseand there's another caveat here in a
(06:56):
moment, in a historical moment whereinstant gratification is so desired
and people have no patience anymore.
And so an SEO is a long run game.
It's a marathon, it's not a sprint.
Also bad SEO agencies or professionals,they promise like, you don't need
to worry, like we were going to getthere and anytime it's not true.
(07:17):
It's getting faster for sure for differentalgorithms, for more computational power.
For a better understanding oflanguage, a lot of reasons is really
getting faster from time to time.
But still you're not ranking tomorrow ornext week or especially for a new website.
So you shouldn't trustanyone telling you that.
And I think that's already a big filter toseparate proper vendors from scammy ones.
Chris Troka (07:41):
Yes, absolutely.
And I love the example that you usethat you're basically the lawyer and
now Google in this situation would bethe judge and the jury, because you
just don't know how they're going torule that day, what deciding factors.
Some days they'll test you atposition one, two, or three, and then
suddenly you're on page two or three.
So it's kind of, you can do your bestagain with the content strategy but
(08:04):
you don't know how deep the competitiongoes with their SEO strategy, because
again, it's not always about the quantitysometimes it's about the quality again.
How was Google feeling today?
So a lot of these, externalfactors and it's important in any
service or product related businessindustry to be more honest and open
about what you can or can't do andwhat the realistic results are.
(08:27):
Cause if you make too many promises thatyou can't deliver on, You're going to
have some unhappy clients and vice versa.
If you can't have some certaintyin your own ability I don't think
other businesses would trust youwith such a large package into SEO.
But again, SEO, as you described,it's a content strategy.
This is how You kind of lure in andnurture new leads that could turn
(08:51):
into customers and customers turninto reviews and referrals for you.
So this is something that thecontent strategy is so important.
Now as we talked before, we dohave chat GPT which can help
with some content creation.
Also, you mentioned before, what is this?
The search GPT that is now goingto take over some search results.
(09:12):
Can you go more into what AI's role isgoing to be with SEO and how you think
it might change the landscape here?
And maybe even things that weshould think about or consider.
Ticiano Sgarbi (09:22):
He just asked me the 1 billion dollar question now
I don't know.
I don't have a full answer for that.
I have some thoughts and I can offerthat, search GPT start being rolled out
last week for some plans and shortlyis coming to every plan, every user
of ChatGPT and if our listener canremember two years ago when ChaiGPT was
(09:47):
became available right after becauseMicrosoft is one of the biggest investors
providing funds for OpenAI which isthe owner of ChaiGPT and they tried
it right away to boost Bing, which istheir search engine against Google.
And they brought a lot of theChatGPT things into Bing and for a
(10:07):
certain time, I think for a month.
It was just for certain usersand all SEO community was,
Oh, can you get access to that?
Because we need to try the nextthing to change everything, which
is essentially it could be compared.
It didn't turn out.
Anything actually afterwards didn't movethe needle but it turned out to be while
we now call, at least when you talkabout Google, the AIO, AI overviews,
(10:31):
especially in the U. S. is being rolledout for so many SERPs where we don't have
the classical tan blue links anymore.
We have these cardsboxes, different elements.
We can play with that and aswe click, it's getting more
refined and more suggestions.
So it's a different experience thatwas the first attempt and now to
answer to get you more specificallyto your question with search.
(10:52):
When they started chat GPT was, theysaid, that's a database from some
years ago and it's like frozen in time.
And then they start tweaking.
Now we're having at fourGPT four or something.
I don't remember which series we are andwe noticed also in the SEO community for
the last six months, at least I've beensaying, Oh but it's interesting, this
(11:13):
information wasn't available a while ago.
Does it mean they are actually promptingthe websites as you do the questions
to check and now we know with searchGPT, they have the search thing and
they are doing that and they are kindof refresh that old Bing thing inside
chat GPT now, which is search GPT.
We still don't know.
(11:34):
We still don't know how moreeffective this will be for the
users, we are learning these days.
For sure they can be insightfuland provide different answers.
We couldn't search before and also Google,they are playing their hand here, which
AIO just mentioned it's all about AI here.
How will that unfold?
We don't know.
We don't even know how OpenAI ispicking the results for search GPT.
(12:00):
We don't know it's a black box, likeeven Google, it is a black box, but we
have a lot of experience and even Googlehas the materials I just mentioned.
So we have a pretty goodidea on how things happen.
But in ChaiGPT case, we don't know.
And then we have a new discipline insideSEO, which is the GEO, the generative
(12:20):
AI engine optimization which is tryingto optimize our clients websites
for this new way of doing search.
So that's a new momentfor us and something new.
We know little so far.
And yeah, that's what AIright now is doing for SEO.
And besides that, I would say they'reiterating a lot more than ever like
(12:41):
you just mentioned about the results.
It's crazy.
You are in P two then youare in P 10, P 15, P three.
They're iterating things and and even.
Something that I think it's unanimousin SEO community for a year now.
Google re really ruin the SERPs to abig extent when you see like Reddit
(13:04):
being the main alternative for mostqueries, like even three, four years old
queries from a thread, sorry for Redditranking higher than a specific user.
Specialized, focusedwebsite, fresh content.
It's ridiculous.
So they are changing the game.
I think they are testing like real timebecause they don't have time to think too
(13:24):
much now with with a threat like SurgPT.
It could potentially disruptGoogle business model as Google
did to Yahoo at the time.
So I think they are tryingto get as running fast as
they can to not be surprised.
And now quality is something maybenot essential at this moment.
(13:46):
That's how I see it.
And that's AI as well.
Chris Troka (13:49):
Yeah, we'll definitely be interesting and I found it
fascinating with the purchase orthe rights to display Reddit search
results within their own searchengine page, which is very interesting
because now other search enginescan't use it for certain instances.
I do prefer certaininstances, certain queries.
I do prefer a Reddit forum where I can seea real conversation happening from people.
(14:11):
Other times this is not a good answerto the question that I asked Google.
So hopefully they can find a new way tokind of parse that data and deliver that
to us but it'll be interesting to see howGoogle plays this because it seems like
you said they're just going too fast.
They're almost more reactionary.
They have to react quickly insteadof trying to take baby steps.
(14:34):
This is just how the technology raceevolves as we try to keep up and stay
on top of everything but we don't knowwhere AI technology search results are
going to be three months from now, threeyears from now, it's so hard to tell
but it's up to us to kind of keep ourear to the ground and stay on top of
the new trends and see what's changing.
(14:54):
One thing that most business owners outthere are kind of stuck in is a lot of
times they believe marketing is just adsor they feel ads are always going to be
a quicker, better results as opposed toSEO and there's pros and cons to both,
but what is your take on ads versus SEO?
What should businesses be looking for?
(15:16):
What should they focus on?
Ticiano Sgarbi (15:17):
It's a very good question.
Thanks for asking that.
I would say every business should lookat both and find balance with that.
As you mentioned, they have pros andcons, and I think each business needs
to think how they can get the bestfrom each and they can help each other
actually ads and SEO if done properly.
I think SEO oftentimes is neglectedbecause this black box to most
(15:42):
people, at least that you don'tquite understand how things unfold.
And this is always low.
We don't have time and so on.
But the lead, you canget a way cheaper lead.
Then you get in typically in sponsoredkeywords, like in Google, for example,
even big companies, they do the mistake.
They spend out, they put away a lot ofthe waste money just getting ads when
(16:05):
they could maybe get better positionsin SEO and save all that money.
So this is the first reason typicallythe lead costs way less with SEO.
There's another thing which is notcovering, typically when we do ads,
we are just doing for keywords thathave purchase intent or close to that.
(16:26):
So like people looking tobuy things or like prices or
really they know what they want.
They're like in the bottom of thefunnel or close to that and SEO,
we can explore the whole funnel.
We can get that as well but wecan get even like when they start
considering doing something like, Iwant let's go to the garden again.
I want to have a new garden here.
(16:48):
What could be the best?
grass to get to put here or theplants for where I live, the
climate, they want to get some tips.
So that's a very exploratorycontent could be a block.
You're getting that.
So you're building your brandalong your potential customer
or your customer journey.
And until he gets to the bottom of itand with that, you simply can do that.
(17:11):
You're just going for the kill forthe last step or close to that.
With SEO, we can cover the whole journeyand we are building brands and in many
countries, like in US, we can even putour goodwill, the value your website has,
you can put in your balance sheet becauseit's really an asset you have with ads.
If you stop paying, you have nothing.
(17:32):
With Google, you can just keep expanding.
And most of all, you're doing that onyour real estate, which is your website
is not anyone's else platform, whichcan define to a certain extent but your
website, nobody can take it away from you.
So I think biggest differencesbetween those but we can go further
and into subtleties and And asI mentioned before, if properly
(17:56):
done, they can help each other.
SEO can inform, they can get benefitfrom advertisement also maybe for
certain keywords you're not rankingor is not worthy producing content
or is just a country youwant a certain market.
You want to do a quick thing.
So short term or you can test things onadvertisement, for example, doing A B
(18:17):
tests, which is so good in advertisement.
In SEO, you can do, but it's muchharder and it takes more time.
And you can just make more assertivethat you get those clicks, which in SEO
sometimes it's not that straightforward.
So they can help each other andhaving both is a great idea.
I recommend to everyone butunfortunately, I think it's on
(18:38):
us, this worldwide is still SEO.
I mean, SEO has the lion's share oftraffic, like it's between anywhere
between 60 and 70 percent of any nicheand even so we are like on the corner
of typically the marketing expensesin any company because it's easier.
And I think marketers doing justadvertisement are more efficient than us.
(19:02):
That's the way I see it.
Chris Troka (19:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I agree with everything you saidabout ads being more of the top of
funnel or at least the purchaseintent when they're in the middle
of the funnel more for the sales andkind of gives you that instant boost.
But again, once you stop payingyou're not going to show up anymore.
And that's where theSEO really plays a role.
And it does cover the entirejourney of the funnel.
Like you mentioned now, you said,let's go back to the garden.
(19:26):
Now you can do product comparisons.
What grass seed or what plants workbest in what area, but this is just
ways for you to have a presenceonline, provide that value to others.
It shows that you're passionate andyou're knowledgeable in your industry or
your profession and this can be a greatresource for anyone who reached out on
your website or is a current customer.
(19:48):
It shows that you care.
So now you are increasing the traffic andeverything kind of builds up from there.
But for me, I've only workedwith more local SEO here in
the U S what does it look like?
More at like a national level, aninternational level, do you work
with clients who are going beyondjust their local market and trying
(20:08):
to reach every corner of the earth?
Ticiano Sgarbi (20:11):
Yeah, we have a bit of all, we have some some local businesses,
but so we are going like more typical.
Local SEO but we have nationalin different countries and
you have international onesand it's different for sure.
For example, english speakingwebsite, which is the number one
(20:32):
language of the world, of course.
So let's say in the U S is typically themain market for anything in the world.
So we want to have a website and we hadsome cases they want to sell worldwide.
So we have a website in English and weneed to prepare content for American
users, but actually, when we startdigging, we see that, an English one,
(20:56):
or even a Canadian, a neighbor, orif you go down under New Zealand or
even Australia, even inside Australia,there are differences, they look
differently at the same content.
We are talking about just Englishspeaking countries, it depends
also how assertive you want to be.
You can say for budget reasons or forthe amount of work we can put out, we
(21:16):
are just going US way and what happenedis good but if you really want to
talk to these audiences and go towardsmore high end services or products,
you want to have a better experience,a better journey, more demanding, you
need to speak their language the waythey speak English, the terms, the ways
they explore things, there are nuances.
(21:37):
Of course, someone in Utah wouldunderstand essentially the same as
someone in Sydney, just to give anexample, but in the granularity of their
realities, the perception is differentof things and that could really impact
if they are converting or not, andthere's another Aspect of it which is
very important also, search engines.
(22:00):
When we say English, I thinkit's the number one language and
most of AI is developed in US.
So you American English but if youexit that and go even to Spanish,
which I would say is the second by thenumber of the countries, the second
language of the world, there are somany nuances and the search engines,
even Google, they can get things.
(22:22):
So well as they get in English,so you see similar terms that they
are seen as the same sometimes orthe opposite and different things.
It's really hard.
And we have to play that from everytime to look in what's the understanding
of search engine for this thing, forthis keyword, for this query, for
this kind of content and split that.
(22:43):
And also in our community, whichwe essentially speak in English
everywhere and of course, you guysis the main market but when you exit
that and you start seeing differentlanguages, how things happen it can
be so different, even slower, likethe developments of the, the LLMs.
And now we are talking about AI.
It comes later, much later,like here in Italy, for example,
(23:04):
AIO is still not a reality.
Most of the queries I've beendoing lately, I didn't see.
I do because I do in other languagesin other countries, but we didn't.
So if you're doing maybe someinternational SEO and Italy is
also involved or could be anothercountry, how do you manage that?
So it gets more complex but we canovercome all of that, it can be way
more complex to manage and I wouldsay ultimately the keyword here, no
(23:27):
pun intended is communication, ishow you communicate, how you deliver
your message to any audience youmight have, how you craft that must
be taken care of every single time.
Chris Troka (23:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that's something overlookedin the SEO spaces that communication
piece because a lot of the times wefocus too much on just the ranking and
we forget about communicating a messageto get them to click first and then
the entire copy that needs to resonatespecifically with that audience.
And you mentioned the nuances of justEnglish speaking countries and the
(24:01):
phrases and idioms that they may use intheir language that just don't translate
well to another English speaking countrybut something important you said is just
the audience and the communication, Ithink are going to be the two of the
biggest factors as we kind of developSEO and try to keep people going
through the buyer's journey through themarketing funnel to get clients results.
(24:21):
Another thing I wanted to mention is notonly you do SEO for like your own clients
but you also offer a white label service.
So I imagine you offer white labelSEO to other agencies who maybe they
want to provide to their clientsbut maybe they don't have the
team or the resources available.
So you offer that as well.
Is that correct?
Ticiano Sgarbi (24:40):
True, we have some couple of clients, we do that agencies
also, and they don't have SEO, or theyare not specialized and that happens very
often by the way Chris, because we can begood at everything and especially bigger
agencies, there will be exceptions towhat I'm saying, but most of them, they
can specialize enough and SEO, and we canperform better in that and even maybe at
(25:01):
the lower costs because we just do that.
So we do white label services likethe full reporting and talking even
to the client sometimes providingmaterials and all the interactions
that are needed and the project.
So for the final client, theyare receiving the service for
agents A, but actually it's us.
(25:22):
We are doing that and it's seamless.
It's something we do, we can craft prettywell and it's all about understanding
what's needed for the final client andhow the agency wants to us to behave.
So to say which kind of the waywe approach things, and we need
to equalize that, and once it'sdone, it works pretty well.
Chris Troka (25:41):
That's very nice, because I imagine a lot of other marketing agencies
may prefer to be the communication piece.
They want to be the middleman.
So maybe they just want you tosend the reports and do the work
on the back end but they wanttheir account representative.
To be there to kind of handle the customerquestions and interactions or you jump
in and kind of handle that as well.
(26:02):
So that's fantastic.
For those who are interested in gettingin touch with you and finding out
more about your SEO services, whetherthrough your brand or as a white label,
where can they find more about youonline and get connected with you?
Ticiano Sgarbi (26:13):
They can come to our website, which is isgarbi.
eu, S J S G A R B I. E U. Andyou can just text us from there.
We will reply right away.
We also have a newsletter that we aredoing monthly for every 40, 45 days, which
very short condensed with Important thingsabout SEO and we can get from there.
(26:35):
Also something I wanted to mention aboutthe white label is that oftentimes some
agencies, they don't offer SEO servicesbut they have already they do websites,
for example, they have all the clients ontheir databases that could be an upsell
opportunity also to promote those websitesthat were well done but they are not
performing well because no SEO was done.
(26:56):
So it's a lot of opportunity also forthose agencies to deploy those services
and they have no cost essentially.
So it's almost risk free for them.
We also do that and as you mentioned,sometimes they want to have all
the interactions with the client.
We just do on the backgroundthat that's also fine.
So come to our website and wecan get to talk about that.
Chris Troka (27:14):
Nice.
I love that.
And we'll have links available downin the show notes and the description,
so you can get connected directlywith TC on here now, we always like
to ask a lot of our guests here.
You've been in business for a while.
You've reached a level of success.
What was the most impactful marketingstrategy that you used for yourself?
Cause you mentioned a lot ofword of mouth and referrals.
How did you kind of get that goingand start building relationships?
Ticiano Sgarbi (27:36):
I think you answered, it's word of mouth and how you do that
because it's works a lot for any business.
Especially I think for services,because it's something not tangible,
like it's not getting a car or ashoe that you can touch, you can
feel, you can smell, services.
I mean, I can promise I will do that well.
I can have a track record that I canshow you, but until I do it really and
(27:57):
you see the results, it's just a promiseand being a SEO agency, we are in the
marketing field and marketers are verygood talkers, they can do fancy fluffy
things around and for any regularcompany, it can be really tricky to
understand what works and what's not.
So the word of mouth.
(28:18):
penetrates, goes through thatand so that's the difference.
So as I mentioned before, it'salso my background, my journey.
I always did marketing somehow.
So it's getting to talk to people whoare showing sporting opportunities
for us but also for them, whatthey could do and leveraging that.
And a satisfied client will alwaysbring more to you essentially.
(28:38):
And I would say.
Even on website we don't at thispoint refresh that much because
it's just like what what kindof we are doing SEO for who?
In this case, it's just for other SEOsto look at us and for a vanity things.
All they are so cool or what?
Right?
Because clients are not mostof times most of clients.
There are exceptions foranything we can talk about but
(28:59):
they are not looking into that.
So we are all focused on theword of mouth and we've been.
We're doing internationally.
So it's really that counts.
I can travel to every countryevery day but when they trust what
you're doing and they start seeingthe results, they will tell their
neighbor in Ireland or in Thailand andsay, they do, they did a great job.
Why don't you talk to them?
(29:19):
And of course we will do ourbest to serve them well as well.
And there you go.
That's I would say the biggest challengeis to get that mechanism, like enough
quantity that allows you to work properly.
But after that it getspretty easy to move on.
Chris Troka (29:33):
I love that.
And I think it's a testament to theservice and the product that you deliver
as the end result to a lot of the clients.
They obviously love the work that you do.
They start referring you to morepeople and now you have this
self sustaining business model.
Like you said, it gets easier overtime now that the relationships
have been built and super fantastic.
Tiziano, we appreciate you comingon to our podcast and sharing this
(29:55):
knowledge and insight with us.
Congratulations on all your success.
So excited to see everythingthat you do in the future.
We appreciate it.
Ticiano Sgarbi (30:02):
Thank you very much.
Much appreciated.
Thanks for the opportunityand see you soon.
Chris Troka (30:06):
Same here.
Thank you so much.
If you really want to talk to theseaudiences and go towards more high end
(00:04):
services or products, you want to havea better experience, a better journey,
more demanding, you need to speak theirlanguage, the way they speak English.
You're listening to BrainworkFramework, a business and marketing
podcast brought to you by focus- biz.
com.
Chris Troka (00:21):
Welcome back to this week's episode.
We have a very special guest.
We have Tiziano Scarbi.
He is the founder ofScarbi Digital Marketing.
He helps businesses thrive in theonline real estate space with more
search engine optimization but thisgoes beyond just local and national.
This is international SEO.
And we're going to talk more about adsversus SEO, what LLMs can't do and how AI
(00:42):
is going to change the landscape of SEO.
Tiziano, so great to meet you.
How are you doing today?
Thanks for coming on.
Ticiano Sgarbi (00:48):
I'm doing great, Chris.
Thanks for having me.
Chris Troka (00:51):
Absolutely.
So today is day two ofour podcast recording.
We talked off air for an hour andeven 30 minutes before we started
today, just because we were havingsuch great conversation about the
world and marketing and business andcreativity, all those fun things.
We always like to ask our entrepreneurs,tell us about your business journey.
What were you doing before?
And how did that kind of leadyou into what you're doing today?
Ticiano Sgarbi (01:12):
Okay.
Now you surprised me.
So before answering you,it's part of the journey.
When I was a kid, I kind of selftaught myself how to write at home.
I start playing like with cuttingnewspapers and even encyclopedias.
I love to do that and put words togetherand that's what I did when I was like, I
have the pictures two, three, even four.
(01:33):
Then I went to school.
I kind of knew alreadyhow to speak and to write.
I studied and then my familyhad a textile company.
I worked on that for a longtime and eventually I quit
doing that and started over.
And I was like kind of thisSEO thing because it was a
crossroad of marketing and IT.
(01:54):
Marketing was what I used to doin textiles, like visiting clients
and it's more than sales, like,promoting the business and showing
possibilities and that kind ofthing and representing the company.
So I had that already andit was always a passion.
I also thought myself how to codewhen I was eight the first time
of COBOL which was not useful butit was fun somehow and then at
(02:18):
different times I coded a little bit.
Now I'm keeping the promise,not starting with Python,
which had been trending lately.
So far so good and then I starteddoing SEO, I started like for just for
fun indexing ranking things and thenI started doing that's a business.
And I started the agency already10 years ago and since I always
(02:39):
traveled quite a bit and then.
I mean, I have people I knoweverywhere and word of mouth is
always so important in services.
And I started getting clients indifferent countries and places and
niches and industries and here we go.
So that's what I've beendoing for the last 10 years.
Following SEO daily withall the ups and downs.
Chris Troka (03:01):
That's very exciting journey.
I like that you were able to blend thatunique experience skill set of the I.
T. with more of the marketing side aswell because SEO can kind of be that
fun blend of the creative aspect butalso very technical because we really
get into the metrics and the dataand keyword trends and all of that.
What should businesses be lookingfor who want to improve their
(03:23):
SEO, their presence online?
Do you have any recommendations for otherpeople who kind of want to dip their toes
into SEO to see that it actually works?
Ticiano Sgarbi (03:31):
Just to understand your question, when looking for an SEO vendor
or when they want to approach SEO somehow?
Chris Troka (03:38):
Yeah, I think first, how they would approach SEO just themselves.
If they're kind of a smaller operation, ifthey're a startup and they're on a budget
here just to start there and then maybeyou can go into what to look for in SEO
vendors because I'm sure there's quitea few in many different industries that
make some promises that can't deliver.
And you can just provide morerealistic results for what that means.
Ticiano Sgarbi (04:00):
Correct.
So I would say for any business thatwants to start doing some SEO, the very
first step is like creating content.
You need to understand youraudience, what they are looking for
and that depends on which businessyou can be even a non profit.
It's not that it needs to be businessbut what kind of message of information
(04:23):
your audience is looking for and startcrafting content around that because
that's essentially what SEO does.
Like it's optimizing for searchresults for those queries
that people are looking for.
So you need to understand ifyou work with gardening tools,
what people that are doing.
That gardening as a hobby, or eventheir pros, what they are looking for
(04:45):
products, for techniques, for ideas,for pictures, for what may start
brainstorming and doing that and publishthat would be the very first step I would
say and be unique as much as you can.
I think we'll talk about thatlater when we touch AI maybe.
The second thing when approachingan SEO vendor, there's so much here.
(05:05):
I would say be aware ofcertainties and miracles.
What do you mean by that?
When we talk about SEO, up to now,at least it's searching engines
and Google is the main player.
We don't know for the future at leastfor the last 20 years it has been.
And after all, it's not a public domain.
(05:27):
I mean, it's Google's game here.
So we don't know the rules.
We have some recommendations.
We have best practices, the qualityguidelines that they publish and
they update quite often right now.
They have people that speak with SEOcommunity regularly, they respond
messages on social media, or even emailssometimes conventions where they are
(05:51):
available to talk in so we can havesome hints but we don't quite know.
And we don't also know whatour competitors are doing.
When I say competitors is anyone tryingto rank for the same things as you,
it could, so we could be even nota business competitor but they are
looking for the same real estate onthe SERPs as you, we don't know what
(06:14):
they are doing fully and what they aregoing and so we don't control that.
And if any SEO agents tells you, youcan be sure we are going to nail, we
are going to get those positions foryour web pages, you should really ask
twice and try to understand how theydo that because no one can manage that
(06:35):
we do our best to promote our client'scontent and website in general but we
can't game the system and no one can.
It's a bit like a lawyer.
I mean, they can do their best, theydo that every day, like we do SEO,
but ultimately the decision is noton their hands and that's a bit of
the SEO and some people, they promiseand there's another caveat here in a
(06:56):
moment, in a historical moment whereinstant gratification is so desired
and people have no patience anymore.
And so an SEO is a long run game.
It's a marathon, it's not a sprint.
Also bad SEO agencies or professionals,they promise like, you don't need
to worry, like we were going to getthere and anytime it's not true.
(07:17):
It's getting faster for sure for differentalgorithms, for more computational power.
For a better understanding oflanguage, a lot of reasons is really
getting faster from time to time.
But still you're not ranking tomorrow ornext week or especially for a new website.
So you shouldn't trustanyone telling you that.
And I think that's already a big filter toseparate proper vendors from scammy ones.
Chris Troka (07:41):
Yes, absolutely.
And I love the example that you usethat you're basically the lawyer and
now Google in this situation would bethe judge and the jury, because you
just don't know how they're going torule that day, what deciding factors.
Some days they'll test you atposition one, two, or three, and then
suddenly you're on page two or three.
So it's kind of, you can do your bestagain with the content strategy but
(08:04):
you don't know how deep the competitiongoes with their SEO strategy, because
again, it's not always about the quantitysometimes it's about the quality again.
How was Google feeling today?
So a lot of these, externalfactors and it's important in any
service or product related businessindustry to be more honest and open
about what you can or can't do andwhat the realistic results are.
(08:27):
Cause if you make too many promises thatyou can't deliver on, You're going to
have some unhappy clients and vice versa.
If you can't have some certaintyin your own ability I don't think
other businesses would trust youwith such a large package into SEO.
But again, SEO, as you described,it's a content strategy.
This is how You kind of lure in andnurture new leads that could turn
(08:51):
into customers and customers turninto reviews and referrals for you.
So this is something that thecontent strategy is so important.
Now as we talked before, we dohave chat GPT which can help
with some content creation.
Also, you mentioned before, what is this?
The search GPT that is now goingto take over some search results.
(09:12):
Can you go more into what AI's role isgoing to be with SEO and how you think
it might change the landscape here?
And maybe even things that weshould think about or consider.
Ticiano Sgarbi (09:22):
He just asked me the 1 billion dollar question now
I don't know.
I don't have a full answer for that.
I have some thoughts and I can offerthat, search GPT start being rolled out
last week for some plans and shortlyis coming to every plan, every user
of ChatGPT and if our listener canremember two years ago when ChaiGPT was
(09:47):
became available right after becauseMicrosoft is one of the biggest investors
providing funds for OpenAI which isthe owner of ChaiGPT and they tried
it right away to boost Bing, which istheir search engine against Google.
And they brought a lot of theChatGPT things into Bing and for a
(10:07):
certain time, I think for a month.
It was just for certain usersand all SEO community was,
Oh, can you get access to that?
Because we need to try the nextthing to change everything, which
is essentially it could be compared.
It didn't turn out.
Anything actually afterwards didn't movethe needle but it turned out to be while
we now call, at least when you talkabout Google, the AIO, AI overviews,
(10:31):
especially in the U. S. is being rolledout for so many SERPs where we don't have
the classical tan blue links anymore.
We have these cardsboxes, different elements.
We can play with that and aswe click, it's getting more
refined and more suggestions.
So it's a different experience thatwas the first attempt and now to
answer to get you more specificallyto your question with search.
(10:52):
When they started chat GPT was, theysaid, that's a database from some
years ago and it's like frozen in time.
And then they start tweaking.
Now we're having at fourGPT four or something.
I don't remember which series we are andwe noticed also in the SEO community for
the last six months, at least I've beensaying, Oh but it's interesting, this
(11:13):
information wasn't available a while ago.
Does it mean they are actually promptingthe websites as you do the questions
to check and now we know with searchGPT, they have the search thing and
they are doing that and they are kindof refresh that old Bing thing inside
chat GPT now, which is search GPT.
We still don't know.
(11:34):
We still don't know how moreeffective this will be for the
users, we are learning these days.
For sure they can be insightfuland provide different answers.
We couldn't search before and also Google,they are playing their hand here, which
AIO just mentioned it's all about AI here.
How will that unfold?
We don't know.
We don't even know how OpenAI ispicking the results for search GPT.
(12:00):
We don't know it's a black box, likeeven Google, it is a black box, but we
have a lot of experience and even Googlehas the materials I just mentioned.
So we have a pretty goodidea on how things happen.
But in ChaiGPT case, we don't know.
And then we have a new discipline insideSEO, which is the GEO, the generative
(12:20):
AI engine optimization which is tryingto optimize our clients websites
for this new way of doing search.
So that's a new momentfor us and something new.
We know little so far.
And yeah, that's what AIright now is doing for SEO.
And besides that, I would say they'reiterating a lot more than ever like
(12:41):
you just mentioned about the results.
It's crazy.
You are in P two then youare in P 10, P 15, P three.
They're iterating things and and even.
Something that I think it's unanimousin SEO community for a year now.
Google re really ruin the SERPs to abig extent when you see like Reddit
(13:04):
being the main alternative for mostqueries, like even three, four years old
queries from a thread, sorry for Redditranking higher than a specific user.
Specialized, focusedwebsite, fresh content.
It's ridiculous.
So they are changing the game.
I think they are testing like real timebecause they don't have time to think too
(13:24):
much now with with a threat like SurgPT.
It could potentially disruptGoogle business model as Google
did to Yahoo at the time.
So I think they are tryingto get as running fast as
they can to not be surprised.
And now quality is something maybenot essential at this moment.
(13:46):
That's how I see it.
And that's AI as well.
Chris Troka (13:49):
Yeah, we'll definitely be interesting and I found it
fascinating with the purchase orthe rights to display Reddit search
results within their own searchengine page, which is very interesting
because now other search enginescan't use it for certain instances.
I do prefer certaininstances, certain queries.
I do prefer a Reddit forum where I can seea real conversation happening from people.
(14:11):
Other times this is not a good answerto the question that I asked Google.
So hopefully they can find a new way tokind of parse that data and deliver that
to us but it'll be interesting to see howGoogle plays this because it seems like
you said they're just going too fast.
They're almost more reactionary.
They have to react quickly insteadof trying to take baby steps.
(14:34):
This is just how the technology raceevolves as we try to keep up and stay
on top of everything but we don't knowwhere AI technology search results are
going to be three months from now, threeyears from now, it's so hard to tell
but it's up to us to kind of keep ourear to the ground and stay on top of
the new trends and see what's changing.
(14:54):
One thing that most business owners outthere are kind of stuck in is a lot of
times they believe marketing is just adsor they feel ads are always going to be
a quicker, better results as opposed toSEO and there's pros and cons to both,
but what is your take on ads versus SEO?
What should businesses be looking for?
(15:16):
What should they focus on?
Ticiano Sgarbi (15:17):
It's a very good question.
Thanks for asking that.
I would say every business should lookat both and find balance with that.
As you mentioned, they have pros andcons, and I think each business needs
to think how they can get the bestfrom each and they can help each other
actually ads and SEO if done properly.
I think SEO oftentimes is neglectedbecause this black box to most
(15:42):
people, at least that you don'tquite understand how things unfold.
And this is always low.
We don't have time and so on.
But the lead, you canget a way cheaper lead.
Then you get in typically in sponsoredkeywords, like in Google, for example,
even big companies, they do the mistake.
They spend out, they put away a lot ofthe waste money just getting ads when
(16:05):
they could maybe get better positionsin SEO and save all that money.
So this is the first reason typicallythe lead costs way less with SEO.
There's another thing which is notcovering, typically when we do ads,
we are just doing for keywords thathave purchase intent or close to that.
(16:26):
So like people looking tobuy things or like prices or
really they know what they want.
They're like in the bottom of thefunnel or close to that and SEO,
we can explore the whole funnel.
We can get that as well but wecan get even like when they start
considering doing something like, Iwant let's go to the garden again.
I want to have a new garden here.
(16:48):
What could be the best?
grass to get to put here or theplants for where I live, the
climate, they want to get some tips.
So that's a very exploratorycontent could be a block.
You're getting that.
So you're building your brandalong your potential customer
or your customer journey.
And until he gets to the bottom of itand with that, you simply can do that.
(17:11):
You're just going for the kill forthe last step or close to that.
With SEO, we can cover the whole journeyand we are building brands and in many
countries, like in US, we can even putour goodwill, the value your website has,
you can put in your balance sheet becauseit's really an asset you have with ads.
If you stop paying, you have nothing.
(17:32):
With Google, you can just keep expanding.
And most of all, you're doing that onyour real estate, which is your website
is not anyone's else platform, whichcan define to a certain extent but your
website, nobody can take it away from you.
So I think biggest differencesbetween those but we can go further
and into subtleties and And asI mentioned before, if properly
(17:56):
done, they can help each other.
SEO can inform, they can get benefitfrom advertisement also maybe for
certain keywords you're not rankingor is not worthy producing content
or is just a country youwant a certain market.
You want to do a quick thing.
So short term or you can test things onadvertisement, for example, doing A B
(18:17):
tests, which is so good in advertisement.
In SEO, you can do, but it's muchharder and it takes more time.
And you can just make more assertivethat you get those clicks, which in SEO
sometimes it's not that straightforward.
So they can help each other andhaving both is a great idea.
I recommend to everyone butunfortunately, I think it's on
(18:38):
us, this worldwide is still SEO.
I mean, SEO has the lion's share oftraffic, like it's between anywhere
between 60 and 70 percent of any nicheand even so we are like on the corner
of typically the marketing expensesin any company because it's easier.
And I think marketers doing justadvertisement are more efficient than us.
(19:02):
That's the way I see it.
Chris Troka (19:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I agree with everything you saidabout ads being more of the top of
funnel or at least the purchaseintent when they're in the middle
of the funnel more for the sales andkind of gives you that instant boost.
But again, once you stop payingyou're not going to show up anymore.
And that's where theSEO really plays a role.
And it does cover the entirejourney of the funnel.
Like you mentioned now, you said,let's go back to the garden.
(19:26):
Now you can do product comparisons.
What grass seed or what plants workbest in what area, but this is just
ways for you to have a presenceonline, provide that value to others.
It shows that you're passionate andyou're knowledgeable in your industry or
your profession and this can be a greatresource for anyone who reached out on
your website or is a current customer.
(19:48):
It shows that you care.
So now you are increasing the traffic andeverything kind of builds up from there.
But for me, I've only workedwith more local SEO here in
the U S what does it look like?
More at like a national level, aninternational level, do you work
with clients who are going beyondjust their local market and trying
(20:08):
to reach every corner of the earth?
Ticiano Sgarbi (20:11):
Yeah, we have a bit of all, we have some some local businesses,
but so we are going like more typical.
Local SEO but we have nationalin different countries and
you have international onesand it's different for sure.
For example, english speakingwebsite, which is the number one
(20:32):
language of the world, of course.
So let's say in the U S is typically themain market for anything in the world.
So we want to have a website and we hadsome cases they want to sell worldwide.
So we have a website in English and weneed to prepare content for American
users, but actually, when we startdigging, we see that, an English one,
(20:56):
or even a Canadian, a neighbor, orif you go down under New Zealand or
even Australia, even inside Australia,there are differences, they look
differently at the same content.
We are talking about just Englishspeaking countries, it depends
also how assertive you want to be.
You can say for budget reasons or forthe amount of work we can put out, we
(21:16):
are just going US way and what happenedis good but if you really want to
talk to these audiences and go towardsmore high end services or products,
you want to have a better experience,a better journey, more demanding, you
need to speak their language the waythey speak English, the terms, the ways
they explore things, there are nuances.
(21:37):
Of course, someone in Utah wouldunderstand essentially the same as
someone in Sydney, just to give anexample, but in the granularity of their
realities, the perception is differentof things and that could really impact
if they are converting or not, andthere's another Aspect of it which is
very important also, search engines.
(22:00):
When we say English, I thinkit's the number one language and
most of AI is developed in US.
So you American English but if youexit that and go even to Spanish,
which I would say is the second by thenumber of the countries, the second
language of the world, there are somany nuances and the search engines,
even Google, they can get things.
(22:22):
So well as they get in English,so you see similar terms that they
are seen as the same sometimes orthe opposite and different things.
It's really hard.
And we have to play that from everytime to look in what's the understanding
of search engine for this thing, forthis keyword, for this query, for
this kind of content and split that.
(22:43):
And also in our community, whichwe essentially speak in English
everywhere and of course, you guysis the main market but when you exit
that and you start seeing differentlanguages, how things happen it can
be so different, even slower, likethe developments of the, the LLMs.
And now we are talking about AI.
It comes later, much later,like here in Italy, for example,
(23:04):
AIO is still not a reality.
Most of the queries I've beendoing lately, I didn't see.
I do because I do in other languagesin other countries, but we didn't.
So if you're doing maybe someinternational SEO and Italy is
also involved or could be anothercountry, how do you manage that?
So it gets more complex but we canovercome all of that, it can be way
more complex to manage and I wouldsay ultimately the keyword here, no
(23:27):
pun intended is communication, ishow you communicate, how you deliver
your message to any audience youmight have, how you craft that must
be taken care of every single time.
Chris Troka (23:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that's something overlookedin the SEO spaces that communication
piece because a lot of the times wefocus too much on just the ranking and
we forget about communicating a messageto get them to click first and then
the entire copy that needs to resonatespecifically with that audience.
And you mentioned the nuances of justEnglish speaking countries and the
(24:01):
phrases and idioms that they may use intheir language that just don't translate
well to another English speaking countrybut something important you said is just
the audience and the communication, Ithink are going to be the two of the
biggest factors as we kind of developSEO and try to keep people going
through the buyer's journey through themarketing funnel to get clients results.
(24:21):
Another thing I wanted to mention is notonly you do SEO for like your own clients
but you also offer a white label service.
So I imagine you offer white labelSEO to other agencies who maybe they
want to provide to their clientsbut maybe they don't have the
team or the resources available.
So you offer that as well.
Is that correct?
Ticiano Sgarbi (24:40):
True, we have some couple of clients, we do that agencies
also, and they don't have SEO, or theyare not specialized and that happens very
often by the way Chris, because we can begood at everything and especially bigger
agencies, there will be exceptions towhat I'm saying, but most of them, they
can specialize enough and SEO, and we canperform better in that and even maybe at
(25:01):
the lower costs because we just do that.
So we do white label services likethe full reporting and talking even
to the client sometimes providingmaterials and all the interactions
that are needed and the project.
So for the final client, theyare receiving the service for
agents A, but actually it's us.
(25:22):
We are doing that and it's seamless.
It's something we do, we can craft prettywell and it's all about understanding
what's needed for the final client andhow the agency wants to us to behave.
So to say which kind of the waywe approach things, and we need
to equalize that, and once it'sdone, it works pretty well.
Chris Troka (25:41):
That's very nice, because I imagine a lot of other marketing agencies
may prefer to be the communication piece.
They want to be the middleman.
So maybe they just want you tosend the reports and do the work
on the back end but they wanttheir account representative.
To be there to kind of handle the customerquestions and interactions or you jump
in and kind of handle that as well.
(26:02):
So that's fantastic.
For those who are interested in gettingin touch with you and finding out
more about your SEO services, whetherthrough your brand or as a white label,
where can they find more about youonline and get connected with you?
Ticiano Sgarbi (26:13):
They can come to our website, which is isgarbi.
eu, S J S G A R B I. E U. Andyou can just text us from there.
We will reply right away.
We also have a newsletter that we aredoing monthly for every 40, 45 days, which
very short condensed with Important thingsabout SEO and we can get from there.
(26:35):
Also something I wanted to mention aboutthe white label is that oftentimes some
agencies, they don't offer SEO servicesbut they have already they do websites,
for example, they have all the clients ontheir databases that could be an upsell
opportunity also to promote those websitesthat were well done but they are not
performing well because no SEO was done.
(26:56):
So it's a lot of opportunity also forthose agencies to deploy those services
and they have no cost essentially.
So it's almost risk free for them.
We also do that and as you mentioned,sometimes they want to have all
the interactions with the client.
We just do on the backgroundthat that's also fine.
So come to our website and wecan get to talk about that.
Chris Troka (27:14):
Nice.
I love that.
And we'll have links available downin the show notes and the description,
so you can get connected directlywith TC on here now, we always like
to ask a lot of our guests here.
You've been in business for a while.
You've reached a level of success.
What was the most impactful marketingstrategy that you used for yourself?
Cause you mentioned a lot ofword of mouth and referrals.
How did you kind of get that goingand start building relationships?
Ticiano Sgarbi (27:36):
I think you answered, it's word of mouth and how you do that
because it's works a lot for any business.
Especially I think for services,because it's something not tangible,
like it's not getting a car or ashoe that you can touch, you can
feel, you can smell, services.
I mean, I can promise I will do that well.
I can have a track record that I canshow you, but until I do it really and
(27:57):
you see the results, it's just a promiseand being a SEO agency, we are in the
marketing field and marketers are verygood talkers, they can do fancy fluffy
things around and for any regularcompany, it can be really tricky to
understand what works and what's not.
So the word of mouth.
(28:18):
penetrates, goes through thatand so that's the difference.
So as I mentioned before, it'salso my background, my journey.
I always did marketing somehow.
So it's getting to talk to people whoare showing sporting opportunities
for us but also for them, whatthey could do and leveraging that.
And a satisfied client will alwaysbring more to you essentially.
(28:38):
And I would say.
Even on website we don't at thispoint refresh that much because
it's just like what what kindof we are doing SEO for who?
In this case, it's just for other SEOsto look at us and for a vanity things.
All they are so cool or what?
Right?
Because clients are not mostof times most of clients.
There are exceptions foranything we can talk about but
(28:59):
they are not looking into that.
So we are all focused on theword of mouth and we've been.
We're doing internationally.
So it's really that counts.
I can travel to every countryevery day but when they trust what
you're doing and they start seeingthe results, they will tell their
neighbor in Ireland or in Thailand andsay, they do, they did a great job.
Why don't you talk to them?
(29:19):
And of course we will do ourbest to serve them well as well.
And there you go.
That's I would say the biggest challengeis to get that mechanism, like enough
quantity that allows you to work properly.
But after that it getspretty easy to move on.
Chris Troka (29:33):
I love that.
And I think it's a testament to theservice and the product that you deliver
as the end result to a lot of the clients.
They obviously love the work that you do.
They start referring you to morepeople and now you have this
self sustaining business model.
Like you said, it gets easier overtime now that the relationships
have been built and super fantastic.
Tiziano, we appreciate you comingon to our podcast and sharing this
(29:55):
knowledge and insight with us.
Congratulations on all your success.
So excited to see everythingthat you do in the future.
We appreciate it.
Ticiano Sgarbi (30:02):
Thank you very much.
Much appreciated.
Thanks for the opportunityand see you soon.
Chris Troka (30:06):
Same here.
Thank you so much.
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