August 29, 2025 • 30 mins
Kevin Finke, founder of Experience Willow, explores the profound impact of human-centered design in fostering belonging within organizations. Join us as we delve into innovative strategies that break barriers and create spaces where everyone feels seen and valued. Perfect for business leaders and designers alike, this conversation will inspire you to rethink your approach to relationships and engagement.
Listen on Podbean:
https://brainworkframework.podbean.com/
Connect with Kevin Finke:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinfinke/
Personal Website: https://www.kevinfinke.com/
Company Website: https://www.experiencewillow.com/
Connect with Chris Troka:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-troka-3a093058/
Website: https://focused-biz.com/
Website: https://christroka.com/ #brainwork #framework #business #strategies #approach #engagement #valued
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Belonging is not just a feeling.
(00:02):
It is a basic, fundamental human needthat 8 billion humans on the planet share.
Unfortunately, I would say maybe 30 years.
Workplaces haven't been placesto talk about your emotions or to
ask employees how they're feelingor how leaders are feeling.
You don't deal with emotions,you don't talk about them.
You don't show emotions.
(00:23):
It's a sign of weakness for men, andI think Brene Brown would say it's
a sign of imperfection for women.
Don't show your emotions.
But now I work in the space of coming intocompanies and tell me how you're feeling.
Now this kind of design problem solvingfor your culture, but that we've
left your people happier because theyhave a better sense of belonging.
You are listening to Brainwork Framework,a Business and Marketing podcast,
(00:45):
brought to you by Focused-biz.com.
Welcome back to another episode.
With us today is the founderand chief experience Officer of
Experience Willow, Kevin Finke.
They are human-centereddesigners who craft experiences
that go beyond connection.
They create unbreakable bondsbeyond people and organizations.
Kevin, so excited to have you on today.
How you doing?
Chris, I'm so happy to be here.
(01:05):
I always love being in conversationabout subjects that I care so
passionately about, I'm ready to jump in.
I love it.
Exciting.
We always ask our entrepreneursabout your journey.
What were you doing before that broughtyou into what you're doing today?
Just to tell you a little bitabout my personal background.
I grew up in a rural farmingcommunity in downstate Illinois.
In Illinois, there's Chicago,and then everything else in
(01:25):
the state's called downstate.
I had a rural upbringing and I lovewhere I come from and I'm Midwestern
at heart and although my husband and Itoday call Atlanta, Georgia home, that's
where I'm podcasting in from today.
I grew up in the rural Midwest andjust a great sense of community
and family and the things thatcome from that kind of upbringing.
But I always knew in thatsmall little farm town that I
(01:48):
had bigger adventures ahead.
I worked really hard throughout school toearn a spot at the University of Illinois.
That's where I actually got mydegree in communications with
an emphasis in advertising.
And I started anadvertising career in 1992.
When I graduated, the first company Iwent to work for, I actually interned
at Walt Disney World in Orlando,Florida as part of the college program.
(02:10):
And it was an amazingintroduction to big business.
I look back at it very serendipitouslybecause as an experienced designer,
you cannot work for a better company.
They think about what the experienceis and they execute on it in a ways
that just keep people coming backand giving them lots of revenue.
It's literally that Disney magic.
It is magic.
And literally when you go throughonboarding, when you have an
(02:33):
experience, they're very particularabout the experience you deliver.
They also are great at onboardingyou to, here's how we deliver it.
Here's the rules for delivering it.
Here are the norms for delivering.
Here's what you have to valuewhen you're in front of our guest.
You have to exceed their expectationsevery time with anything that you
do out on stage when you're there.
And I think it was coming from thiscurious space of growing up where I
(02:56):
did and knowing the world was bigger,and then that's where I started.
I just feel like it was literallyignited in me a curiosity to get
into advertising and to do thethings that imagineers did at Disney.
So when I started in advertising,I worked my way through several
agencies in Detroit New York City andAtlanta and I ended up on Coca-Cola.
(03:17):
That's what brought me to Atlanta tobegin with, to help start an operation
here in experiential marketing.
So we were the ones who worked with ourclients at Coca-Cola to basically create
all of their footprints, all of theirmarketing presences at things like nascar.
That traveling thing thathappens in the United States
and that big experience.
If there was a Coca-Cola thinghappening at that track on Sunday,
(03:38):
we were there activating that.
I worked on two Olympic games.
I did Salt Lake City as well as Sydney andthe teams that I worked with and manage,
we created the Coca-Cola footprint, whatwas the Coca-Cola experience on site
in those cities during the Olympics.
And that's the kind of workI was always known for doing.
I was designing consumer experiences.
I probably didn't call myselfa designer though until I
(04:00):
actually started my own company.
And I took a two year sabbaticalfrom about 2010 to 2012 and I
did a lot of self exploration.
I got really deep, I got back into myroots literally, I created seven organic
gardening beds in my home in Atlantaand just put my hands in the soil.
And I got on a bicycle, which Ihadn't done since my childhood and I
(04:20):
literally just rode all through thecountryside in and outside of Atlanta.
I just started the creativity andthe curiosity just started reflowing
through me in a very unique way.
And I knew that I wanted to startthis experience design company.
So when we got our start.
One of the people that I had been workingwith the last agency I worked at in New
York City, this person came to me and I'ma chief marketing officer now inside 20th
(04:43):
Century Fox and we're launching a newSpanish language network called Mundo Fox.
And it's gonna compete.
It's the big guys, Univision and Telemundoand our Spanish language media networks
that we have here in the United States.
And would you help us dowhat you do but do it for us?
Give us a footprint in the community andgo to community events and do affiliate
events and do all sorts of things for us.
And that's what took me out ofretirement to get this company started.
(05:05):
And we did that kind of customer consumerexperience work for the first two years.
And we did some great work.
In 2013, 14, we grabbed HBO as a client.
They were launching their networkin Latin America, and they were
gonna be using the Game of Thrones.
And so a lot of Latin American mediais actually purchased in the United
States here and sold here in theUnited States for Latin America.
(05:27):
In Miami we created a one of a kindimmersive, week long experience,
game of Thrones experience wherewe literally brought our customers
into the world of Game of Thrones.
They were carrying banners andwe had characters from the show.
We hired 75 actors.
It was a huge, massive,immersive experience.
And in 2014 it won the globalexperience of the year.
(05:50):
Here I was with my small and mightyteam doing what it was doing,
it really getting recognized andwe've got something special here.
And there was a slightturn in the business.
And in 2014,20 15, I met a chief peopleofficer at a local company tech and
data company called NCR in Atlanta.
It's headquartered here in Atlanta,has been for several years now
(06:10):
and I was doing a little bit ofconsumer marketing work around the
NFL and the Super Bowl for them.
But in the process of doing that work,I met her and she started talking to me
and she goes, Hey, you have a really bigpassion for culture and for employees
and for learning and for problem solving.
I actually think you could do workinside our company, helping us with
(06:30):
our employee organizational culture.
And she goes, I want you to come in andthink about onboarding programs as an
event or series of events or experiences.
Think about designing them likeyou design consumer experiences.
She said, we're at this place in thebusiness world today where companies
aren't just thinking about theircustomer or their consumer brands.
They have to be just as concerned abouttheir employer brands because they're
(06:54):
not just competing in a consumer market.
They have to compete in a talentmarket for the best talent 'cause
when we have the best talent doinggreat work, we get to our goals
faster, right into our visions faster.
She goes, just do what you do.
Just help me market my employerbrand but do experiences.
So we started off on a five yearjourney and from 2014 to 2018, we
did amazing work for this company.
(07:15):
We won lots more awards doingnow employee experience work and
today we have really gravitated.
A hundred percent of our revenueis generated in this space.
We help, usually calling on achief people officer or even
the chief executive officers ofthe companies that we work with.
We help them set the tone for theircultures and their employee experiences.
We partner very closely with departmentsinside our clients, human resources like
(07:40):
marketing, communications, even IT because
if you are part of shaping the experiencethat people have working at a company,
then you are in the employee experiencein the employer branding world.
so that's what we do today.
And we have so many projects going rightnow that are all about helping these
companies, design their cultures formore belonging, for more engagement.
(08:00):
They get the best out of their people.
And in return, they reach theirgoals faster, more efficiently, more
effectively and get done what theywant to get done as business leaders.
I love that.
An incredible journey.
All the experiences andsomehow the direction kinda
led you through suggestions andrecommendations from others.
I feel like this skillsetthat you have would be great.
Can you mold that to this experience?
(08:23):
And that was interesting.
Going from a Game of Thrones, a liveaction role, play style into what could
we do for employee corporate events.
And in my mind I'm thinking,now the employees are walking
around with banners too.
It's a game of phones inside of a company.
Except that experience isa little bit different.
It's about creating people who are excitedabout the mission or what the business is
or just this culture having communicationwith our fellow employees and everything.
(08:45):
Why is there this focus towardsthe customer experience?
When honestly, I feel most of the biggercorporations, they either lack competition
or they just remove services and featuresand they're not really focused on people.
I feel like, is this a trendor a change that we're seeing?
How can we make more businesses.
Focused on the people 'cause Ifeel like that creates a promoter.
Someone who loves to give reviewsand talk about the product
(09:07):
or services they just bought.
I think as the economy became moreof a service and experience economy.
And I think also with the plethora oftechnology that has invaded the business
world just in the last 10 to 20 years.
I think the emergence oftechnology companies that changed.
The idea of what human resourcesis and the value that an HR team
(09:28):
should serve inside a company, theyare ultimately, just as marketers,
are consultants to executives.
This is how we shouldmarket our products or
product is saying, Hey, these are theproducts that will be relevant for our
customer base, and here's our roadmap forthat over here on the HR side, they're
saying, we need the best talent in hereto make all of this work so that we can
(09:48):
do it most effectively, most efficiently.
And so we've gotta create an
experience that attracts great talentand there is no other discipline at
all in business that knows talentbetter than we do, we know talent.
We've become as HR people, culturepractitioners, employee experience
practitioners, what we're doing is we'relooking at the CFO and saying, we know
our number one investment is talent.
(10:09):
We know the number one expenseof all companies is talent.
A company that doesn't spend moremoney on something that isn't people.
So, salaries, benefits, all the thingsthat come with having talent that adds up.
We are the people that come inand say, okay, you're gonna spend
4, 5, 6, 7, 70 million on talent.
Let us be the people.
If you made that investment insomething else in your company, let's
(10:32):
say a piece of real estate, you'd makesure it had a good roof all the time.
You'd make sure that it wascompliant with all the laws.
You would make sure that it workedas best as it could, that it had
the best things that it could.
We would take care ofit, we would maintain it.
We would help you sustain it.
That's what we would want todo if we had invested that kind
of money in something else.
And that's what we do with people.
(10:53):
We help you take care of them, we helpyou polish them and help them grow
and help, get more out of them so thatthey run efficiently and effectively.
They give you discretionary effort.
Do all the things that we want talentto do for us as business leaders
and just create great environments.
That people wanna come to every dayand do their best work with people
that they actually like being around.
(11:13):
It seems like a no brainer.
That's why we're here.
Literally.
That's why my company exists
Now these businesses who are focusingon talent, are there businesses who
are really doing things right and whatthings are they focusing on or are there
businesses who are almost repelling goodtalent and what are they doing wrong
so that we shouldn't do those things?
(11:34):
I think it's because of the stage I'm inmy career and the stage of life I'm in.
I've just entered my fifties.
People are gonna get so clear inyour fifties and sixties of like.
Who you want to bearound and who you don't.
And I'm very selective, I need to know
'cause I just know from my backgroundand from calling on clients in a
marketing or communications capacity,I know what happens when clients
(11:54):
and their partners are on the samepage when they feed off each other.
When they both see that you havestrengths that you each bring
to the table to create great.
I just know how important that is.
And if people are coming to me, usuallythey know they have a problem or series
of problems inside their culture,many times it's leadership issues.
They just haven't nurtured theirleaders or have the right leaders
(12:17):
or trained their leaders properly.
They're not thinking about theexperience of being a leader.
That's a very specific experience.
The inside companies.
And the better they're treated the morethey feel cared for the better, more they
feel connected and that they're empowered.
And all these things as leaders,the better they lead because the
better experience they're having.
And they know they're having problems.
(12:38):
So if I'm going there, I alreadyknow through screening that I think
we can make a difference here.
Our purpose is to ignite a contagiouscuriosity that powers betterness.
I need to know that the clientswe have want to be better.
I do sometimes have to get intoconversation as we're doing things to
say, you're not changing, you're notinvolving, the data's not changing.
(13:00):
I don't know what else we can do.
So we either gotta step back oryou're gonna have to push harder.
You're gonna have to try harder.
You're gonna have to let go of maybe onecustomer priority and actually make people
and culture a priority of some part ofit and those kinds of conversations are
difficult but they have to be had 'cause
I wanna do great work.
I wanna make a difference.
I wanna make an impact.
(13:20):
I need to spend it with clientsthat are willing to let me
help them make an impact.
Now our contribution is to ignitea curiosity 'cause a lot of people
will come to us and say, you needto create the onboarding program.
We could do that for you but let'stalk about the talent you already have
inside and let's co-create it with them.
So as designers, which at the heart of ourbusiness, we are human-centered designers,
(13:43):
which is a very kind of specific kindof design but we create human-centered
organizations and cultures and experiencesby being human-centered designers.
And when we take on any work, weare really helping them diagnose the
problems that they're having in theirculture with their employees, with their
leaders, and doing that through a verythoughtful human-centered design process.
(14:04):
Doing empathy and listening work andlistening to employees really about
what's on their hearts and minds.
In a way that's very thoughtful.
And then pulling fromwhat are the true needs?
And sometimes you do hear physical needs.
But I will tell you, Chris, most ofthis work I do is all about higher level
emotional needs, and it's whether or notyou have a workplace and a leadership
(14:26):
group that actually sets the conditionsfor things like belonging and engagement.
Belonging is not just a feeling.
It is a basic, fundamental human need that8 billion humans on the planet share and
unfortunately, I would say maybe 30 years.
Workplaces haven't been placesto talk about your emotions or to
(14:47):
ask employees how they're feelingor how leaders are feeling.
You don't deal with emotions, you don'ttalk about them, you don't show emotions.
It's a sign of weakness for men.
And I think Brene Brown would sayit's a sign of imperfection for women.
Don't show your emotions.
But now I work in the space of coming intocompanies and tell me how you're feeling.
You were right.
How do they react to that?
(15:07):
It initially very scared,usually lots of fear.
What are you gonna do with this?
What are they gonna say about me?
Because you also have leaderswho have their own needs and
some of their needs are, I wantto know that I'm a good leader.
When you have a group of peoplesaying actually aren't a good leader
at everything, you actually likeit, it hurts your own emotional
(15:28):
wellbeing as a leader many times'cause we don't just wanna belong.
We also want to be valued andappreciated and respected.
And that's actually a higher levelemotional need called worth self-esteem.
And in the end, if you workwith us, I hope when we leave
that we've given you the tools.
Some of the things we've taughtyou along the way that you can
actually do this on your own.
(15:49):
Now, this kind of design problemsolving for your culture but that
we've left your people happier becausethey have a better sense of belonging.
They feel like they've found theirpeople, but these people also value
and respect and appreciate them.
And we've put the systems andpractices in place to monitor
that manage that with them.
And we're leaving with the culturethat's more emotionally intelligent,
(16:10):
it's more resonant, it's peopleare feeling better about themselves
and their work and the companies.
And when I get that feedback, we actuallyare look at our surveys and how people
are talking today versus how they talkedabout two or three or five years ago.
I know that we as a companyare living our purpose.
It makes me really happy actually.
Yes.
I know for all the jobs that I'veworked, the ones that I felt more
committed to the ones I would go aboveand beyond for are the ones where I
(16:32):
felt appreciated, accepted that I had aseat at the table, that they appreciate
everything and they invested in me.
They wanted me to be better.
And that's when I gave back 110% back tothat company right back to them 'cause
they were willing to invest in me.
One of the examples that you shared was,this company who wanted you to create
the onboarding experience, which isthe top of funnel but let's actually
focus on where this middle piece,where I feel like where the people
(16:55):
currently are and letting them developand create this onboarding process.
What better way to get theexact answers that you need from
hearing from the actual employees.
I feel people often miss this iseither asking your current employees
or ask your marketing clients.
I relate this to how wehandle some marketing too.
People wanna go for top of funnelstrategies but focus on the middle
where you take care of people
(17:17):
'cause that's where that churn is andthat retention rate it's gonna be more
expensive to hire someone new than totake care of what you have currently.
I think your approach is, it savesmoney, both short and long term.
It's amazing when you beenstudied so much now for decades by
companies like Gallup and Qualtrics.
I mean, these global data companies,they just have so much rich data
around what creates a great workplace.
(17:39):
When you look at that and you see howmuch more profitable, how much more easily
they reach their goals and their visions.
The things they're able to do to even takethat brand into the communities because
people are in their discretionary effort,getting involved in causes and all sorts.
It's just amazing to see the impact ofwhen you just take a moment to step back
and say, how can I care for these peoplebetter and the experience they're having?
(18:03):
And how do I design a better workexperience 'cause if I call an experience,
anything that leaves an emotional impact.
If you have an emotion, when you say whatare the best experiences in your life?
It's because of the emotionalimprint that's on that memory
and many times our brain actuallyis programmed for the negative.
So many of the emotional memorieswe have are negative memories.
They're not happy memories,our brain wants to not not have
(18:26):
those negative things anymore
'cause when we do, we suffer, we havepain and emotional pain resonates
in our brain as physical pain.
If you have people that don't feelbelonging, it don't feel a sense
of self worth or esteem in theircompany 'cause they feel disrespected
or not appreciated and not valued,not considered, not cared for.
Staying in the culture, theirbrain believes they're in pain.
(18:47):
And when our brain senses any kindof pain, physical or emotional,
what do you think it does?
It's here to keep us alive.
It retreats, it thinks aboutthings that aren't the things
you want them thinking about.
So this research around whenpeople have a sense of belonging.
How much more productive they are becausethey're not worrying about speaking up
or they're not worrying about sharingtheir opinion and their crazy ideas.
(19:09):
They actually give you moreand so that's like in the end.
If you're a leader and youdon't want to get fluffy, then
you don't need Kevin Finke andexperience Willow at your company
'cause my husband laughs and wehe travels all over the world with
me and he's like, Kevin, you talkmore about the F word at work.
And you know people, I say thatpeople are like, they think it's
the F word but it's the feelings.
(19:29):
If you don't want to talkabout feelings, then I likely
shouldn't be in the room with you
'cause you're gonna talkabout your own feelings.
You're gonna talk about and have tolisten to the feelings of your team.
And broadly the feelingsof company in general.
Other employees in other places.
It's gonna have to be part of it.
Yeah.
And it makes sense.
'cause I feel like a lot of businessesare more strict, it's more black and
white, they're on the data analyticalside whereas on the other side, the
(19:51):
creative feeling thinking kind of,it just doesn't resonate with them
and that sort of being uncomfortable.
They don't like that.
So if it's not the right fit, youwant to work with businesses that
actually appreciate the work you doand are willing to make a change and
are focusing on the people themselves.
One thing that you've been mentioningis, when you were having this moment in
2010 going back to the bicycle and justputting your hands in some dirt, kind
(20:14):
of getting back to reality where we are.
Do you think it was both?
Nostalgic in a sense.
And can we learn anything about thatfor design or marketing or business
to tap into some nostalgia factorsfor marketing or our audience.
And then on top of that, do youthink that nostalgia brings that
positive feeling for a lot of people?
Yes.
(20:34):
I mean the job of all marketers is tostrike an emotional cord and you have to
strike an emotional cord in your messagingthat draws people in to get them to at
least sample or try your product, yourservice, your experience, they can decide
whether or not they wanna come back againfor whatever coming back again means.
The deeper the emotional relationship.
But you can't get to an emotionalrelationship if you yourself aren't
(20:55):
willing to listen to people's feelings.
If you're in marketing, you're goingout to consumers and you're talking
honestly with them about what theythink about you, why they think about
that, what have been the experienceswith your products and services?
A lot of the work we do, I just takecustomer experience, tactics and methods.
And I apply them in theemployee experience world.
Again, I'm helping, usually what we'redoing by designing better cultures,
(21:18):
better cultures for belonging, we'reactually increasing the brand equity.
We're increasing the employerbrand equity, the strength of
that brand in the marketplacebecause one of the things great.
Employees do who love the workplaces,they go out and talk about you.
They attract talent.
And by the way, referral programshave been studied in recruitment.
If you have talent that bring talent,those people are like 35% more likely
(21:41):
to be more successful, to be goalor they're better employees when
employees are recommending them.
There's so much data out there, Ithink that the journey you have to
go on is you have to get comfortablelistening, having empathy for
hearing, thoughts, feelings, whatever.
And then once you have them, you have tolook back and say they're feeling that
way because of why, because of needs.
(22:02):
And whether they're consumersor consumer workers, they
have not just physical needs.
Some products are physical need butmost products when you can get into
the belonging and the self-worthspace when actually your product,
whatever that makes people feel betterabout themselves and who they are.
They are gonna be more loyal toyou and keep coming back to you.
You have to get into that emotionalterritory but you can't do it if
(22:24):
you don't listen, if you don't haveempathy, focus groups, surveys, all
those kinds of things that uncoverthose kinds of insights for you.
Absolutely.
I totally agree.
This all sounds great for me.
For those who are interested inlearning more about you, the work that
you provide, where can they find youonline and get connected with you?
Sure.
I always love to buildmy following on LinkedIn.
If you go to the formula forLinkedIn, put in my name, Kevin Finke.
(22:46):
I'm the Kevin Finke there.
I don't have any otherlittle extras around my name.
So please link in with me.
You can also go to my personal website.
I'm starting to do more speaking.
I am an instructor and a teacherand a facilitator at heart.
It's one of the reasons I feelso good in the design world
'cause I'm always facilitating, brainstormsessions and all that kind of stuff.
But I'm starting to get more activeand it's actually in 2025 and 26.
(23:07):
A big part of my business strategy isto build my personal brand and what
comes with that for the business.
You can go to my website, kevinfinke.com.
To see what I do there on an individuallevel but if you're interested in
working with our company, just goto our company experience Willow.
You can see it right behindme, experience willow.com.
And that's our company site.
And you can learn more aboutthe kind of work we do and the
(23:27):
kind of clients we do it for.
Very nice, and we'll have those linksavailable down on the show notes
and the descriptions for everybody.
What are you bringingto the table in 2025?
Are you doing a lot of the greatthings you've already done?
Do you have some new ideas or initiativesyou're starting to put out there?
Yeah.
I would say there's two things.
I just actually took on a different kindof project where I'm actually doing design
work but I'm also serving as a fractionalchief people officer inside a small design
(23:51):
firm here, actually in Atlanta, Georgia.
It has about 40 employees.
And so for me it's almost a new wayof being almost a different type of
practitioner in the space by actuallykind of leading people and culture
strategy for this company whiledesigning their performance management
program, their onboarding program.
I'm doing all their training anddevelopment for all their employees and
doing different kinds of things there.
(24:12):
That's one thing I'm really excited about.
And I want more of that.
I like being on an executive team thinkingabout the health of a business and helping
drive a CEO forward in their vision.
That's been very exciting but I thinkthe most exciting thing is about
10 years ago I was on a flight, awest coast to East Coast Red Eye and
there was a German flight attendant.
(24:33):
And this woman came up to meand started speaking German.
And I was like, I don't understand German.
And she goes, I thought you were German.
You have a German last name.
And I was like, oh, really?
And I guess my background is German.
Then she was like, do youknow how to pronounce it?
We don't pronounce it the wayit's supposed to be pronounced.
So it's Finke, not Ky.
And it means Finch.
As a kind of the inner teacherin me, I thought I was gonna be
(24:55):
teaching kids sometime and students.
So I wrote down to my note and Ithink I have a children's book in me
and it's gonna be about the RainbowFinch and his name is Finnegan and I
have written 40,000 words, it needsto be illustrated, but what we're
doing is taking it a level deeper.
It's not only about the books andbeautiful illustrations that'll
(25:16):
come with that but we are alreadytaking our content from corporate
about belonging and designing forbelonging, talking about self-worth
and self-esteem with professionals.
And we're actually want to take itto elementary schools and middle
schools and high schools and colleges.
There's lots of creative things flowingthrough us right now, but I think that's
the one thing I have most excited.
I think this is a space that's gonna getus out of business but delivering such
(25:38):
important messages to our youth, andI would even call them early careers.
I think sometimes our careersstart in kindergarten.
I've been known to say that when westart being pointed by our parents
and teachers at the things we shouldbecome and I just want kids to know
that they too can be active in that.
And when they know their strengthsand they know what they really get
excited about and how they feelaround certain kinds of people,
(26:02):
whether that's good or bad.
There's things that they could belearning that will hopefully get
them to their people quicker, whetherthat's through schooling or vocational
schooling, university, whatever it is.
But I'm really excited about thatbecause I feel like this 30 year
trajectory of that in corporate hastaken me here and maybe this is it.
Maybe this is how I'm finallygoing to find my way back
into an elementary classroom.
(26:22):
But it's all based on the stuffwe've learned working with
companies and corporations.
I love that.
That is such a cool story.
And speaking of, get me my people,what is a good referral source
for you for those listening?
Is it an industry, certain type ofcompany or are they at a certain stage
or position in their business life?
What is a good referral source for you?
For those who are listeningthinking, I might need Kevin's help.
(26:43):
If their business is either in a certainindustry type or they're at a certain
stage of their business, who wouldbe a good referral source for you?
When you say referral source, whatI would love them to do is go to our
Experience Willow website or even to mine.
And my calendar is published well, youdon't see my published calendar, but
you can actually schedule time with me.
I'd love to know more before justthrowing out a referral source.
(27:03):
I wanna know more about who you areand what you're challenged with and
how might we help you, maybe others.
I would encourage you go to ourwebsites and actually set up one of our
discovery calls, we call them 15 minutecall just to get to know each other.
I love that.
That's beautiful.
Kevin, I wanna ask somethingabout your years of experience
both in life and business andworking over the last 30 years.
Trends change, things are updating,marketing and design in the nineties
(27:26):
is different in 2000, 2010, today.
What trends have you seenchanging or is there trends
that have stayed true over time?
This is just the foundation of eithergreat design work or great people work.
Trends can't change thefoundation of things.
So any trends you're seeing or thingskind of just exactly as you expected.
Well in the workplace.
I think there's a few trends.
The first one you can't ignore thatis everywhere that's influencing
(27:48):
the business of all kinds is AI.
So for me it's like, what's the roleof AI in the work that we do, and how
can AI be used inside the companiesto actually make work easier, better,
more efficient, more effective forthose cultures because of all the
other technologies that are spinning.
I think that we are at a place in humanhistory where it's never been more
important to get back to being human.
(28:09):
And I think a human experience is onethat not only meets our physical needs
but it meets our emotional needs.
And if we want the true knowledge,skills, behaviors, experiences that humans
can create, that machines never could.
You have to care.
About the humans in your workplace becauseif you can help them be more human, they
(28:30):
will give you more creativity, they willgive you more analysis, they'll give you
all the things our human brain can do thatwe haven't trained a machine to do yet.
I think that's the ultimate trend.
The ultimate trend isit's time to get human.
It's time to get open and vulnerableand to make this better together.
We all have to work on this togetherin order to create the kind of world
I think is possible and the kind ofworld of work that I think is possible.
(28:52):
So that's the ultimate trend.
I love that.
Kevin, thank great advice, love yousharing your tips and tricks here.
Before we sign off here, why don't youjust open the floor to you for anything
we haven't discussed yet, anything that'son your mind that you just wanna talk
about and share with our audience here?
I think we've had a great conversation.
I've answered so many of your questionsand if I've piqued your curiosity,
which is my purpose, if I've igniteda contagious curiosity, if you have
(29:14):
a question, you have a disagreement.
Oh my God.
I love disagreements.
I actually train people on how tohave disagreements in the workplace.
If you value things like diversity andinclusion, then you value things like
conflict, because that's what diversityand inclusion brings is lots of diverse
opinions, difference of opinions and ifyou want to hear everyone's voice at the
table, then you have to value conflictand you have to work through that.
(29:37):
Right?
So I don't care, if you agreewith me or don't agree with
me, please reach out to me.
Let's have a conversation about how wecould help or a tip that I could provide
you and move on to the next thing.
But that's the one thing Iwould wanna leave with them.
I hope that I've piqued your curiosity.
If I have, please reach out.
I'd love to help you powermore betterness in your world.
Kevin.
Well said, and I definitelyappreciate that analogy there.
(29:58):
Thank you so much for taking the time.
We appreciate it.
Looking forward to all yoursuccess in 2025 and beyond.
Thank you.
Thanks Chris.
Have a good one.
Belonging is not just a feeling.
(00:02):
It is a basic, fundamental human needthat 8 billion humans on the planet share.
Unfortunately, I would say maybe 30 years.
Workplaces haven't been placesto talk about your emotions or to
ask employees how they're feelingor how leaders are feeling.
You don't deal with emotions,you don't talk about them.
You don't show emotions.
(00:23):
It's a sign of weakness for men, andI think Brene Brown would say it's
a sign of imperfection for women.
Don't show your emotions.
But now I work in the space of coming intocompanies and tell me how you're feeling.
Now this kind of design problem solvingfor your culture, but that we've
left your people happier because theyhave a better sense of belonging.
You are listening to Brainwork Framework,a Business and Marketing podcast,
(00:45):
brought to you by Focused-biz.com.
Welcome back to another episode.
With us today is the founderand chief experience Officer of
Experience Willow, Kevin Finke.
They are human-centereddesigners who craft experiences
that go beyond connection.
They create unbreakable bondsbeyond people and organizations.
Kevin, so excited to have you on today.
How you doing?
Chris, I'm so happy to be here.
(01:05):
I always love being in conversationabout subjects that I care so
passionately about, I'm ready to jump in.
I love it.
Exciting.
We always ask our entrepreneursabout your journey.
What were you doing before that broughtyou into what you're doing today?
Just to tell you a little bitabout my personal background.
I grew up in a rural farmingcommunity in downstate Illinois.
In Illinois, there's Chicago,and then everything else in
(01:25):
the state's called downstate.
I had a rural upbringing and I lovewhere I come from and I'm Midwestern
at heart and although my husband and Itoday call Atlanta, Georgia home, that's
where I'm podcasting in from today.
I grew up in the rural Midwest andjust a great sense of community
and family and the things thatcome from that kind of upbringing.
But I always knew in thatsmall little farm town that I
(01:48):
had bigger adventures ahead.
I worked really hard throughout school toearn a spot at the University of Illinois.
That's where I actually got mydegree in communications with
an emphasis in advertising.
And I started anadvertising career in 1992.
When I graduated, the first company Iwent to work for, I actually interned
at Walt Disney World in Orlando,Florida as part of the college program.
(02:10):
And it was an amazingintroduction to big business.
I look back at it very serendipitouslybecause as an experienced designer,
you cannot work for a better company.
They think about what the experienceis and they execute on it in a ways
that just keep people coming backand giving them lots of revenue.
It's literally that Disney magic.
It is magic.
And literally when you go throughonboarding, when you have an
(02:33):
experience, they're very particularabout the experience you deliver.
They also are great at onboardingyou to, here's how we deliver it.
Here's the rules for delivering it.
Here are the norms for delivering.
Here's what you have to valuewhen you're in front of our guest.
You have to exceed their expectationsevery time with anything that you
do out on stage when you're there.
And I think it was coming from thiscurious space of growing up where I
(02:56):
did and knowing the world was bigger,and then that's where I started.
I just feel like it was literallyignited in me a curiosity to get
into advertising and to do thethings that imagineers did at Disney.
So when I started in advertising,I worked my way through several
agencies in Detroit New York City andAtlanta and I ended up on Coca-Cola.
(03:17):
That's what brought me to Atlanta tobegin with, to help start an operation
here in experiential marketing.
So we were the ones who worked with ourclients at Coca-Cola to basically create
all of their footprints, all of theirmarketing presences at things like nascar.
That traveling thing thathappens in the United States
and that big experience.
If there was a Coca-Cola thinghappening at that track on Sunday,
(03:38):
we were there activating that.
I worked on two Olympic games.
I did Salt Lake City as well as Sydney andthe teams that I worked with and manage,
we created the Coca-Cola footprint, whatwas the Coca-Cola experience on site
in those cities during the Olympics.
And that's the kind of workI was always known for doing.
I was designing consumer experiences.
I probably didn't call myselfa designer though until I
(04:00):
actually started my own company.
And I took a two year sabbaticalfrom about 2010 to 2012 and I
did a lot of self exploration.
I got really deep, I got back into myroots literally, I created seven organic
gardening beds in my home in Atlantaand just put my hands in the soil.
And I got on a bicycle, which Ihadn't done since my childhood and I
(04:20):
literally just rode all through thecountryside in and outside of Atlanta.
I just started the creativity andthe curiosity just started reflowing
through me in a very unique way.
And I knew that I wanted to startthis experience design company.
So when we got our start.
One of the people that I had been workingwith the last agency I worked at in New
York City, this person came to me and I'ma chief marketing officer now inside 20th
(04:43):
Century Fox and we're launching a newSpanish language network called Mundo Fox.
And it's gonna compete.
It's the big guys, Univision and Telemundoand our Spanish language media networks
that we have here in the United States.
And would you help us dowhat you do but do it for us?
Give us a footprint in the community andgo to community events and do affiliate
events and do all sorts of things for us.
And that's what took me out ofretirement to get this company started.
(05:05):
And we did that kind of customer consumerexperience work for the first two years.
And we did some great work.
In 2013, 14, we grabbed HBO as a client.
They were launching their networkin Latin America, and they were
gonna be using the Game of Thrones.
And so a lot of Latin American mediais actually purchased in the United
States here and sold here in theUnited States for Latin America.
(05:27):
In Miami we created a one of a kindimmersive, week long experience,
game of Thrones experience wherewe literally brought our customers
into the world of Game of Thrones.
They were carrying banners andwe had characters from the show.
We hired 75 actors.
It was a huge, massive,immersive experience.
And in 2014 it won the globalexperience of the year.
(05:50):
Here I was with my small and mightyteam doing what it was doing,
it really getting recognized andwe've got something special here.
And there was a slightturn in the business.
And in 2014,20 15, I met a chief peopleofficer at a local company tech and
data company called NCR in Atlanta.
It's headquartered here in Atlanta,has been for several years now
(06:10):
and I was doing a little bit ofconsumer marketing work around the
NFL and the Super Bowl for them.
But in the process of doing that work,I met her and she started talking to me
and she goes, Hey, you have a really bigpassion for culture and for employees
and for learning and for problem solving.
I actually think you could do workinside our company, helping us with
(06:30):
our employee organizational culture.
And she goes, I want you to come in andthink about onboarding programs as an
event or series of events or experiences.
Think about designing them likeyou design consumer experiences.
She said, we're at this place in thebusiness world today where companies
aren't just thinking about theircustomer or their consumer brands.
They have to be just as concerned abouttheir employer brands because they're
(06:54):
not just competing in a consumer market.
They have to compete in a talentmarket for the best talent 'cause
when we have the best talent doinggreat work, we get to our goals
faster, right into our visions faster.
She goes, just do what you do.
Just help me market my employerbrand but do experiences.
So we started off on a five yearjourney and from 2014 to 2018, we
did amazing work for this company.
(07:15):
We won lots more awards doingnow employee experience work and
today we have really gravitated.
A hundred percent of our revenueis generated in this space.
We help, usually calling on achief people officer or even
the chief executive officers ofthe companies that we work with.
We help them set the tone for theircultures and their employee experiences.
We partner very closely with departmentsinside our clients, human resources like
(07:40):
marketing, communications, even IT because
if you are part of shaping the experiencethat people have working at a company,
then you are in the employee experiencein the employer branding world.
so that's what we do today.
And we have so many projects going rightnow that are all about helping these
companies, design their cultures formore belonging, for more engagement.
(08:00):
They get the best out of their people.
And in return, they reach theirgoals faster, more efficiently, more
effectively and get done what theywant to get done as business leaders.
I love that.
An incredible journey.
All the experiences andsomehow the direction kinda
led you through suggestions andrecommendations from others.
I feel like this skillsetthat you have would be great.
Can you mold that to this experience?
(08:23):
And that was interesting.
Going from a Game of Thrones, a liveaction role, play style into what could
we do for employee corporate events.
And in my mind I'm thinking,now the employees are walking
around with banners too.
It's a game of phones inside of a company.
Except that experience isa little bit different.
It's about creating people who are excitedabout the mission or what the business is
or just this culture having communicationwith our fellow employees and everything.
(08:45):
Why is there this focus towardsthe customer experience?
When honestly, I feel most of the biggercorporations, they either lack competition
or they just remove services and featuresand they're not really focused on people.
I feel like, is this a trendor a change that we're seeing?
How can we make more businesses.
Focused on the people 'cause Ifeel like that creates a promoter.
Someone who loves to give reviewsand talk about the product
(09:07):
or services they just bought.
I think as the economy became moreof a service and experience economy.
And I think also with the plethora oftechnology that has invaded the business
world just in the last 10 to 20 years.
I think the emergence oftechnology companies that changed.
The idea of what human resourcesis and the value that an HR team
(09:28):
should serve inside a company, theyare ultimately, just as marketers,
are consultants to executives.
This is how we shouldmarket our products or
product is saying, Hey, these are theproducts that will be relevant for our
customer base, and here's our roadmap forthat over here on the HR side, they're
saying, we need the best talent in hereto make all of this work so that we can
(09:48):
do it most effectively, most efficiently.
And so we've gotta create an
experience that attracts great talentand there is no other discipline at
all in business that knows talentbetter than we do, we know talent.
We've become as HR people, culturepractitioners, employee experience
practitioners, what we're doing is we'relooking at the CFO and saying, we know
our number one investment is talent.
(10:09):
We know the number one expenseof all companies is talent.
A company that doesn't spend moremoney on something that isn't people.
So, salaries, benefits, all the thingsthat come with having talent that adds up.
We are the people that come inand say, okay, you're gonna spend
4, 5, 6, 7, 70 million on talent.
Let us be the people.
If you made that investment insomething else in your company, let's
(10:32):
say a piece of real estate, you'd makesure it had a good roof all the time.
You'd make sure that it wascompliant with all the laws.
You would make sure that it workedas best as it could, that it had
the best things that it could.
We would take care ofit, we would maintain it.
We would help you sustain it.
That's what we would want todo if we had invested that kind
of money in something else.
And that's what we do with people.
(10:53):
We help you take care of them, we helpyou polish them and help them grow
and help, get more out of them so thatthey run efficiently and effectively.
They give you discretionary effort.
Do all the things that we want talentto do for us as business leaders
and just create great environments.
That people wanna come to every dayand do their best work with people
that they actually like being around.
(11:13):
It seems like a no brainer.
That's why we're here.
Literally.
That's why my company exists
Now these businesses who are focusingon talent, are there businesses who
are really doing things right and whatthings are they focusing on or are there
businesses who are almost repelling goodtalent and what are they doing wrong
so that we shouldn't do those things?
(11:34):
I think it's because of the stage I'm inmy career and the stage of life I'm in.
I've just entered my fifties.
People are gonna get so clear inyour fifties and sixties of like.
Who you want to bearound and who you don't.
And I'm very selective, I need to know
'cause I just know from my backgroundand from calling on clients in a
marketing or communications capacity,I know what happens when clients
(11:54):
and their partners are on the samepage when they feed off each other.
When they both see that you havestrengths that you each bring
to the table to create great.
I just know how important that is.
And if people are coming to me, usuallythey know they have a problem or series
of problems inside their culture,many times it's leadership issues.
They just haven't nurtured theirleaders or have the right leaders
(12:17):
or trained their leaders properly.
They're not thinking about theexperience of being a leader.
That's a very specific experience.
The inside companies.
And the better they're treated the morethey feel cared for the better, more they
feel connected and that they're empowered.
And all these things as leaders,the better they lead because the
better experience they're having.
And they know they're having problems.
(12:38):
So if I'm going there, I alreadyknow through screening that I think
we can make a difference here.
Our purpose is to ignite a contagiouscuriosity that powers betterness.
I need to know that the clientswe have want to be better.
I do sometimes have to get intoconversation as we're doing things to
say, you're not changing, you're notinvolving, the data's not changing.
(13:00):
I don't know what else we can do.
So we either gotta step back oryou're gonna have to push harder.
You're gonna have to try harder.
You're gonna have to let go of maybe onecustomer priority and actually make people
and culture a priority of some part ofit and those kinds of conversations are
difficult but they have to be had 'cause
I wanna do great work.
I wanna make a difference.
I wanna make an impact.
(13:20):
I need to spend it with clientsthat are willing to let me
help them make an impact.
Now our contribution is to ignitea curiosity 'cause a lot of people
will come to us and say, you needto create the onboarding program.
We could do that for you but let'stalk about the talent you already have
inside and let's co-create it with them.
So as designers, which at the heart of ourbusiness, we are human-centered designers,
(13:43):
which is a very kind of specific kindof design but we create human-centered
organizations and cultures and experiencesby being human-centered designers.
And when we take on any work, weare really helping them diagnose the
problems that they're having in theirculture with their employees, with their
leaders, and doing that through a verythoughtful human-centered design process.
(14:04):
Doing empathy and listening work andlistening to employees really about
what's on their hearts and minds.
In a way that's very thoughtful.
And then pulling fromwhat are the true needs?
And sometimes you do hear physical needs.
But I will tell you, Chris, most ofthis work I do is all about higher level
emotional needs, and it's whether or notyou have a workplace and a leadership
(14:26):
group that actually sets the conditionsfor things like belonging and engagement.
Belonging is not just a feeling.
It is a basic, fundamental human need that8 billion humans on the planet share and
unfortunately, I would say maybe 30 years.
Workplaces haven't been placesto talk about your emotions or to
(14:47):
ask employees how they're feelingor how leaders are feeling.
You don't deal with emotions, you don'ttalk about them, you don't show emotions.
It's a sign of weakness for men.
And I think Brene Brown would sayit's a sign of imperfection for women.
Don't show your emotions.
But now I work in the space of coming intocompanies and tell me how you're feeling.
You were right.
How do they react to that?
(15:07):
It initially very scared,usually lots of fear.
What are you gonna do with this?
What are they gonna say about me?
Because you also have leaderswho have their own needs and
some of their needs are, I wantto know that I'm a good leader.
When you have a group of peoplesaying actually aren't a good leader
at everything, you actually likeit, it hurts your own emotional
(15:28):
wellbeing as a leader many times'cause we don't just wanna belong.
We also want to be valued andappreciated and respected.
And that's actually a higher levelemotional need called worth self-esteem.
And in the end, if you workwith us, I hope when we leave
that we've given you the tools.
Some of the things we've taughtyou along the way that you can
actually do this on your own.
(15:49):
Now, this kind of design problemsolving for your culture but that
we've left your people happier becausethey have a better sense of belonging.
They feel like they've found theirpeople, but these people also value
and respect and appreciate them.
And we've put the systems andpractices in place to monitor
that manage that with them.
And we're leaving with the culturethat's more emotionally intelligent,
(16:10):
it's more resonant, it's peopleare feeling better about themselves
and their work and the companies.
And when I get that feedback, we actuallyare look at our surveys and how people
are talking today versus how they talkedabout two or three or five years ago.
I know that we as a companyare living our purpose.
It makes me really happy actually.
Yes.
I know for all the jobs that I'veworked, the ones that I felt more
committed to the ones I would go aboveand beyond for are the ones where I
(16:32):
felt appreciated, accepted that I had aseat at the table, that they appreciate
everything and they invested in me.
They wanted me to be better.
And that's when I gave back 110% back tothat company right back to them 'cause
they were willing to invest in me.
One of the examples that you shared was,this company who wanted you to create
the onboarding experience, which isthe top of funnel but let's actually
focus on where this middle piece,where I feel like where the people
(16:55):
currently are and letting them developand create this onboarding process.
What better way to get theexact answers that you need from
hearing from the actual employees.
I feel people often miss this iseither asking your current employees
or ask your marketing clients.
I relate this to how wehandle some marketing too.
People wanna go for top of funnelstrategies but focus on the middle
where you take care of people
(17:17):
'cause that's where that churn is andthat retention rate it's gonna be more
expensive to hire someone new than totake care of what you have currently.
I think your approach is, it savesmoney, both short and long term.
It's amazing when you beenstudied so much now for decades by
companies like Gallup and Qualtrics.
I mean, these global data companies,they just have so much rich data
around what creates a great workplace.
(17:39):
When you look at that and you see howmuch more profitable, how much more easily
they reach their goals and their visions.
The things they're able to do to even takethat brand into the communities because
people are in their discretionary effort,getting involved in causes and all sorts.
It's just amazing to see the impact ofwhen you just take a moment to step back
and say, how can I care for these peoplebetter and the experience they're having?
(18:03):
And how do I design a better workexperience 'cause if I call an experience,
anything that leaves an emotional impact.
If you have an emotion, when you say whatare the best experiences in your life?
It's because of the emotionalimprint that's on that memory
and many times our brain actuallyis programmed for the negative.
So many of the emotional memorieswe have are negative memories.
They're not happy memories,our brain wants to not not have
(18:26):
those negative things anymore
'cause when we do, we suffer, we havepain and emotional pain resonates
in our brain as physical pain.
If you have people that don't feelbelonging, it don't feel a sense
of self worth or esteem in theircompany 'cause they feel disrespected
or not appreciated and not valued,not considered, not cared for.
Staying in the culture, theirbrain believes they're in pain.
(18:47):
And when our brain senses any kindof pain, physical or emotional,
what do you think it does?
It's here to keep us alive.
It retreats, it thinks aboutthings that aren't the things
you want them thinking about.
So this research around whenpeople have a sense of belonging.
How much more productive they are becausethey're not worrying about speaking up
or they're not worrying about sharingtheir opinion and their crazy ideas.
(19:09):
They actually give you moreand so that's like in the end.
If you're a leader and youdon't want to get fluffy, then
you don't need Kevin Finke andexperience Willow at your company
'cause my husband laughs and wehe travels all over the world with
me and he's like, Kevin, you talkmore about the F word at work.
And you know people, I say thatpeople are like, they think it's
the F word but it's the feelings.
(19:29):
If you don't want to talkabout feelings, then I likely
shouldn't be in the room with you
'cause you're gonna talkabout your own feelings.
You're gonna talk about and have tolisten to the feelings of your team.
And broadly the feelingsof company in general.
Other employees in other places.
It's gonna have to be part of it.
Yeah.
And it makes sense.
'cause I feel like a lot of businessesare more strict, it's more black and
white, they're on the data analyticalside whereas on the other side, the
(19:51):
creative feeling thinking kind of,it just doesn't resonate with them
and that sort of being uncomfortable.
They don't like that.
So if it's not the right fit, youwant to work with businesses that
actually appreciate the work you doand are willing to make a change and
are focusing on the people themselves.
One thing that you've been mentioningis, when you were having this moment in
2010 going back to the bicycle and justputting your hands in some dirt, kind
(20:14):
of getting back to reality where we are.
Do you think it was both?
Nostalgic in a sense.
And can we learn anything about thatfor design or marketing or business
to tap into some nostalgia factorsfor marketing or our audience.
And then on top of that, do youthink that nostalgia brings that
positive feeling for a lot of people?
Yes.
(20:34):
I mean the job of all marketers is tostrike an emotional cord and you have to
strike an emotional cord in your messagingthat draws people in to get them to at
least sample or try your product, yourservice, your experience, they can decide
whether or not they wanna come back againfor whatever coming back again means.
The deeper the emotional relationship.
But you can't get to an emotionalrelationship if you yourself aren't
(20:55):
willing to listen to people's feelings.
If you're in marketing, you're goingout to consumers and you're talking
honestly with them about what theythink about you, why they think about
that, what have been the experienceswith your products and services?
A lot of the work we do, I just takecustomer experience, tactics and methods.
And I apply them in theemployee experience world.
Again, I'm helping, usually what we'redoing by designing better cultures,
(21:18):
better cultures for belonging, we'reactually increasing the brand equity.
We're increasing the employerbrand equity, the strength of
that brand in the marketplacebecause one of the things great.
Employees do who love the workplaces,they go out and talk about you.
They attract talent.
And by the way, referral programshave been studied in recruitment.
If you have talent that bring talent,those people are like 35% more likely
(21:41):
to be more successful, to be goalor they're better employees when
employees are recommending them.
There's so much data out there, Ithink that the journey you have to
go on is you have to get comfortablelistening, having empathy for
hearing, thoughts, feelings, whatever.
And then once you have them, you have tolook back and say they're feeling that
way because of why, because of needs.
(22:02):
And whether they're consumersor consumer workers, they
have not just physical needs.
Some products are physical need butmost products when you can get into
the belonging and the self-worthspace when actually your product,
whatever that makes people feel betterabout themselves and who they are.
They are gonna be more loyal toyou and keep coming back to you.
You have to get into that emotionalterritory but you can't do it if
(22:24):
you don't listen, if you don't haveempathy, focus groups, surveys, all
those kinds of things that uncoverthose kinds of insights for you.
Absolutely.
I totally agree.
This all sounds great for me.
For those who are interested inlearning more about you, the work that
you provide, where can they find youonline and get connected with you?
Sure.
I always love to buildmy following on LinkedIn.
If you go to the formula forLinkedIn, put in my name, Kevin Finke.
(22:46):
I'm the Kevin Finke there.
I don't have any otherlittle extras around my name.
So please link in with me.
You can also go to my personal website.
I'm starting to do more speaking.
I am an instructor and a teacherand a facilitator at heart.
It's one of the reasons I feelso good in the design world
'cause I'm always facilitating, brainstormsessions and all that kind of stuff.
But I'm starting to get more activeand it's actually in 2025 and 26.
(23:07):
A big part of my business strategy isto build my personal brand and what
comes with that for the business.
You can go to my website, kevinfinke.com.
To see what I do there on an individuallevel but if you're interested in
working with our company, just goto our company experience Willow.
You can see it right behindme, experience willow.com.
And that's our company site.
And you can learn more aboutthe kind of work we do and the
(23:27):
kind of clients we do it for.
Very nice, and we'll have those linksavailable down on the show notes
and the descriptions for everybody.
What are you bringingto the table in 2025?
Are you doing a lot of the greatthings you've already done?
Do you have some new ideas or initiativesyou're starting to put out there?
Yeah.
I would say there's two things.
I just actually took on a different kindof project where I'm actually doing design
work but I'm also serving as a fractionalchief people officer inside a small design
(23:51):
firm here, actually in Atlanta, Georgia.
It has about 40 employees.
And so for me it's almost a new wayof being almost a different type of
practitioner in the space by actuallykind of leading people and culture
strategy for this company whiledesigning their performance management
program, their onboarding program.
I'm doing all their training anddevelopment for all their employees and
doing different kinds of things there.
(24:12):
That's one thing I'm really excited about.
And I want more of that.
I like being on an executive team thinkingabout the health of a business and helping
drive a CEO forward in their vision.
That's been very exciting but I thinkthe most exciting thing is about
10 years ago I was on a flight, awest coast to East Coast Red Eye and
there was a German flight attendant.
(24:33):
And this woman came up to meand started speaking German.
And I was like, I don't understand German.
And she goes, I thought you were German.
You have a German last name.
And I was like, oh, really?
And I guess my background is German.
Then she was like, do youknow how to pronounce it?
We don't pronounce it the wayit's supposed to be pronounced.
So it's Finke, not Ky.
And it means Finch.
As a kind of the inner teacherin me, I thought I was gonna be
(24:55):
teaching kids sometime and students.
So I wrote down to my note and Ithink I have a children's book in me
and it's gonna be about the RainbowFinch and his name is Finnegan and I
have written 40,000 words, it needsto be illustrated, but what we're
doing is taking it a level deeper.
It's not only about the books andbeautiful illustrations that'll
(25:16):
come with that but we are alreadytaking our content from corporate
about belonging and designing forbelonging, talking about self-worth
and self-esteem with professionals.
And we're actually want to take itto elementary schools and middle
schools and high schools and colleges.
There's lots of creative things flowingthrough us right now, but I think that's
the one thing I have most excited.
I think this is a space that's gonna getus out of business but delivering such
(25:38):
important messages to our youth, andI would even call them early careers.
I think sometimes our careersstart in kindergarten.
I've been known to say that when westart being pointed by our parents
and teachers at the things we shouldbecome and I just want kids to know
that they too can be active in that.
And when they know their strengthsand they know what they really get
excited about and how they feelaround certain kinds of people,
(26:02):
whether that's good or bad.
There's things that they could belearning that will hopefully get
them to their people quicker, whetherthat's through schooling or vocational
schooling, university, whatever it is.
But I'm really excited about thatbecause I feel like this 30 year
trajectory of that in corporate hastaken me here and maybe this is it.
Maybe this is how I'm finallygoing to find my way back
into an elementary classroom.
(26:22):
But it's all based on the stuffwe've learned working with
companies and corporations.
I love that.
That is such a cool story.
And speaking of, get me my people,what is a good referral source
for you for those listening?
Is it an industry, certain type ofcompany or are they at a certain stage
or position in their business life?
What is a good referral source for you?
For those who are listeningthinking, I might need Kevin's help.
(26:43):
If their business is either in a certainindustry type or they're at a certain
stage of their business, who wouldbe a good referral source for you?
When you say referral source, whatI would love them to do is go to our
Experience Willow website or even to mine.
And my calendar is published well, youdon't see my published calendar, but
you can actually schedule time with me.
I'd love to know more before justthrowing out a referral source.
(27:03):
I wanna know more about who you areand what you're challenged with and
how might we help you, maybe others.
I would encourage you go to ourwebsites and actually set up one of our
discovery calls, we call them 15 minutecall just to get to know each other.
I love that.
That's beautiful.
Kevin, I wanna ask somethingabout your years of experience
both in life and business andworking over the last 30 years.
Trends change, things are updating,marketing and design in the nineties
(27:26):
is different in 2000, 2010, today.
What trends have you seenchanging or is there trends
that have stayed true over time?
This is just the foundation of eithergreat design work or great people work.
Trends can't change thefoundation of things.
So any trends you're seeing or thingskind of just exactly as you expected.
Well in the workplace.
I think there's a few trends.
The first one you can't ignore thatis everywhere that's influencing
(27:48):
the business of all kinds is AI.
So for me it's like, what's the roleof AI in the work that we do, and how
can AI be used inside the companiesto actually make work easier, better,
more efficient, more effective forthose cultures because of all the
other technologies that are spinning.
I think that we are at a place in humanhistory where it's never been more
important to get back to being human.
(28:09):
And I think a human experience is onethat not only meets our physical needs
but it meets our emotional needs.
And if we want the true knowledge,skills, behaviors, experiences that humans
can create, that machines never could.
You have to care.
About the humans in your workplace becauseif you can help them be more human, they
(28:30):
will give you more creativity, they willgive you more analysis, they'll give you
all the things our human brain can do thatwe haven't trained a machine to do yet.
I think that's the ultimate trend.
The ultimate trend isit's time to get human.
It's time to get open and vulnerableand to make this better together.
We all have to work on this togetherin order to create the kind of world
I think is possible and the kind ofworld of work that I think is possible.
(28:52):
So that's the ultimate trend.
I love that.
Kevin, thank great advice, love yousharing your tips and tricks here.
Before we sign off here, why don't youjust open the floor to you for anything
we haven't discussed yet, anything that'son your mind that you just wanna talk
about and share with our audience here?
I think we've had a great conversation.
I've answered so many of your questionsand if I've piqued your curiosity,
which is my purpose, if I've igniteda contagious curiosity, if you have
(29:14):
a question, you have a disagreement.
Oh my God.
I love disagreements.
I actually train people on how tohave disagreements in the workplace.
If you value things like diversity andinclusion, then you value things like
conflict, because that's what diversityand inclusion brings is lots of diverse
opinions, difference of opinions and ifyou want to hear everyone's voice at the
table, then you have to value conflictand you have to work through that.
(29:37):
Right?
So I don't care, if you agreewith me or don't agree with
me, please reach out to me.
Let's have a conversation about how wecould help or a tip that I could provide
you and move on to the next thing.
But that's the one thing Iwould wanna leave with them.
I hope that I've piqued your curiosity.
If I have, please reach out.
I'd love to help you powermore betterness in your world.
Kevin.
Well said, and I definitelyappreciate that analogy there.
(29:58):
Thank you so much for taking the time.
We appreciate it.
Looking forward to all yoursuccess in 2025 and beyond.
Thank you.
Thanks Chris.
Have a good one.
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