June 18, 2025 • 22 mins
Join Kevin Fenton, founder and Chief Creative Officer of Walla Design, as he dives into the essence of learning through failure. In this episode, Kevin shares personal anecdotes and industry insights that highlight the importance of failing your way to success. Tune in to discover how embracing mistakes can pave the way for innovation, creativity, and ultimately, greater achievements in your professional life!
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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/walladesignco
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-fenton-0998b66
Connect with Chris Troka:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-troka-3a093058/
Website: https://focused-biz.com/
Website: https://christroka.com/ #brainwork #framework #business #innovation #creativity #achievements
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
When we succeed, I'm succeeding,but when we fail, I'm bailing
(00:04):
and it burns when that happens.
You are listening to Brainwork Framework,a Business and Marketing podcast,
brought to you by Focused-biz.com.
Welcome back to another episode.
With us today is the founder and ChiefCreative Officer of Walla Design.
Kevin Fenton, Walla Design is a fullsservice creative agency based in
Washington DC with nearly two decadesof expertise in crafting meaningful
(00:24):
brands across different sectors.
Kevin, so excited to have you on.
How you doing today?
Doing great.
Thank you for having me on.
Absolutely.
So excited to get more into your journey.
Tell us more about what you'redoing before that led you
into what you're doing now.
Well, right before I jumped off andstarted my own business, I worked for
a series of creative agencies thatbased here in DC and then previously
(00:47):
before that out in LA, before thatI was at the Abercrombie and Fitch
Home office in Columbus, Ohio.
And then before thatI was a media planner.
So I've had a really kind ofweird ping pong trajectory that
brought me to where I am today.
That's super cool but a lot ofdifferent experience that prepares
you for everything you're doing now.
So tell me more about WallaDesign and what you focus on.
So it's a creative agency.
(01:08):
Is this just logos and some content?
Or does go into more technical stuff likestrategy and all encompassing service?
It's really all encompassing.
We do a lot of brand strategywork and media planning work.
That really serves as thecornerstone Foundation for all of
the creative work that we can do.
The perfect world scenario is obviouslythat we get to drive strategy, drive
(01:30):
creative and then drive the executionon a project but it doesn't always
work in such an all encompassing way.
So we're trained up on being able to hopinto an existing brand, internalize and
operate within it but then also able tolay the track work and then jump right in.
Oh, that's awesome.
So you're actually able to go inif they've kind of either started a
(01:50):
process or have this vision already.
You can hop in there whereverthey're at in the process and be
able to see it through to the end.
Yeah, totally.
We just recently completed a project forBaccarat Hotels, which is baccarat brand.
The Baccarat brand is a deep legacythat goes back to the 18 hundreds.
And so that logo is sacrosanctand completely untouchable.
(02:11):
But there's a lot of rich storytellingthat gets involved with that brand
specifically, but also in theproject that we were working on.
So it was really a game of gettinginto their brand guide, seeing what
we can and cannot get away with.
Trying to push on that a littlebit and then create something that
was fantastic and well received.
It's always such a unique position togo into an existing brand and they have
(02:34):
these brand guidelines and again, like,what was that two centuries of history
that you're trying to replicate and howfar we can we push this to keep up with
either current trends or what you'reseeing but still stay true to the brand.
And that's gotta be difficult workingin but you get so many different
creative projects, I'm sure likeone project is whether you're doing
the same deliverables, Hey, you'reworking on a logo completely separate
(02:57):
based on the business or the industryand it just endless options for you.
Yeah.
The tools for all the creativeprojects we work on are all the same.
It's thinking out or I was gonnasay thinking outside of the box but
that's such a trite way to put it.
It's like thinking differently.
We have all the same design toolsthat all of the creatives use but
(03:17):
every single business is tryingto tell a very different story.
Even if you're in the samecategory or same vertical.
You are going to have a different pointof view on that industry that you work in.
So a great example is we're working ona project right now for a healthcare
system out in Southern California.
They started out specifically doing AIDSoutreach in the L-G-B-T-Q community but
(03:40):
now they've since expanded beyond that.
So they're trying to remain true to theroots of the brand but still expand on
their services and evolve that story.
So we're now working on a projectwhere we're taking their existing logo,
which is untouchable, studying it,trying to understand quite literally,
not figuratively, but the literalproportion relationship that the
(04:02):
letter forms have to create the wholemark and then extract design language
out of that and redesign their brand
but keeping that logo in place, all inthe name of trying to level up and tell
this more positive, aspirational story andcreate this emotional connection that they
have with the work that they do is hard.
(04:24):
It's a hard, I mean, when I hearmyself explain it, I'm like,
Jesus, that sounds insane and notpossible but it's super possible.
It's super possible.
I think it's a testament to your abilityto go above and beyond for the clients.
You're like, okay, what is the end result?
And how do I best execute this?
And despite the obstacles you're gonnaface trying to recreate that, it has
to be done to get their vision right.
(04:44):
Totally.
And it is really one of the big questionsI always try to understand or I ask
but in the name of trying to understandwhat a client is really trying to
communicate is how do you want peopleto feel when they fill in the blank?
When they're on my website, when they'rereading my newsletter, it really does come
down to how do you want people to feelwhen they're engaging with their brand?
(05:07):
And sometimes that list ofemotions is really long.
Sometimes it's pretty short.
But if you can kind of dial it down tothree to four key emotions, then you
can design around that and pull thosepieces out in a really creative way.
It is really fascinating, theemotional connections between
design and our behaviors as a wholewithin marketing and business.
(05:28):
Are there either tried and true emotionalfactors that you kind of put in where
it's like, blue is communicationor this typeface represents this?
Or are things kind of changing aspeople perceive things differently?
That's a great question.
Alright, so I'll startwith the color one first.
'cause there's a wholecolor theory around.
Certain colors make you feel certain.
(05:48):
I remember this very old commercialfrom the nineties that was a local
paint shop that you want yourdining room to be painted yellow
because your food will taste better.
And I was like, what?
That is not a thing.
And I kind of mostly believe, I mean,I'm sure there are studies out there
that support that and they're like, yeah.
It gives you a much better feelingand yellow is a really happy color
and short but I'm not a strongbeliever in your logo must be
(06:11):
this color to convey this emotion.
I've worked with a finance companythat was rebranding and it was
an association that representeda ton of financial institutions.
So the instinct was to go quite literallyinto the blue color palette, because that
blue usually communicates security, trustand a lot of financial institutions use
(06:36):
the color blue to communicate that thing.
And I was like, I didn't love that idea'cause it's just such a shallow insight.
But only through discovering, onlythrough the research where we're
able to pull out why is security soimportant in financial institutions.
We can hypothesize on that forever butuntil you actually hear from banking
people who work in jumbo mortgageswho are quite literally scared to
(07:00):
handle other people's money or moreimportantly, they're afraid that they're
going to mess up somebody else's money.
That's where that trust kind ofcomes from or that's what you're
really trying to communicate.
So if you make it blue, doesthat make it more trustworthy?
Not exactly.
You need to look at the languageyou're using to communicate that.
You need to look at the typeface you'regoing to use to communicate that 'cause
(07:21):
I've always considered the typeface to bethe dialect that you're reading it in or
the personality that you're reading it in.
So I'll use the financial institutionexample, a serif typeface, like a
Times New Roman or something that haslittle leg to it that has a lot more
legacy of academia attached to that.
So when you read that, italmost feels more important.
(07:43):
Like if you're reading a bank statement.
That's been type set in comic sands.
I wouldn't take that seriously.
I only send my analyticsreport to papaya now.
So,
God, this is a total tangent but beforeI became a designer, before I even got
into creative, I was a media plannerand I worked at an ad agency and I
wanted to show that I was creativetoo and I labeled all my binders with
(08:07):
papyrus because of Microsoft Word.
That's like the most design font youcan get and I was so proud of them
taking them around to the creativeteam not knowing at all that was one
of the dumbest things I could have donefrom the standpoint of a designer but
for people that don't know and I wasdefinitely someone that didn't know.
I was like, no, this is amazing.
(08:27):
It looks great.
Yeah.
I didn't mean to detractbut I love that story.
No, no, and
I'm glad you knew whatI was talking about.
Totally.
I kind of like this idea oftaking the shittiest type.
I don't know if I can curse on this thingbut you can to take the shittiest typeface
and design something beautiful with itbecause you can't, like, I'll shit all
over a typeface all day, especially onelike comic sense or something like that.
(08:49):
But it's designed for a reason.
It's around still for a reason and I'mconvinced that I can find the right
project to evoke that specific level ofemotion that needs this nonsensical sort
of happy go lucky or lucky kind of feelto it that comic stands would totally fit.
I haven't found that project yetbut I like the idea of trying to
(09:10):
work with the shittiest typefaceto make something beautiful.
That would be super cool.
I would watch a TikTok short on that.
Yeah.
If you redesigned a popular logo and justput it into comics hands like, let's do
our best try to make comic sands work.
That'd be cool.
All right.
Well, now I gotta get a TikTok account.
Yeah, right.
I'm still behind on the times too.
YouTube shorts can work great too.
That'll be fine.
YouTube shorts.
(09:31):
There we go.
Very nice.
I forgot the original questionand I think I completely deviate.
It was using the blue for the financialinstitutions but also using times New
Roman in academia and using the typefaceor the colors to invoke emotion or
to communicate something to someone.
I'm trying to think if there areother ways or other tools that
we can use or other ways thedesigners will implement that.
(09:53):
I mean to pull out and evokea specific emotion and digital
is another really great tool,especially with animation coming in.
It's always been around but like we'reseeing it a lot more and more and
digital engagement that you can do a lot.
I hate to use an Apple examplebecause every designer will use
an Apple example but when thehome pod was first introduced.
Apple did this really beautiful,just very simple animation on scroll.
(10:17):
As you scroll down the page,the thing would just come up.
It would come apart, it wouldopen and you would see all this
stuff and it just felt important.
There was this very cool feeling aboutit and this was a very significant
piece of technology that if youdon't have this then you have no
business being in tech or whatever.
I bought two home pods after seeing thatboth of them are completely irrelevant.
(10:41):
I still use them and I like thembecause it feels important but
that marketing fully worked on me.
Isn't it crazy to be on the receivingend and we know what we're being marketed
to and I know what you're doing butI accept, I agree to this marketing.
Yes, because you sold me on the copyor the design or just everything that
comes together, you're like, this iswhat I want and did a great job with it.
(11:03):
Yes.
I use myself as an idiot consumer allthe time with clients because one thing,
that's the hardest thing for me totry to dial a client into like, what
is it that you are actually selling?
You've got a product.
Yes, you have a service but there'ssomething beyond the product and
service that you're selling and theexample I use a lot is with myself
which is a hundred percent true.
I'm 45 now and I'm not ready toaccept that I'm 45, so I am like
(11:28):
gripping onto youth in a waythat some people may find sad.
They're like, you gotta let that go butone of the ways that I am like holding
onto youth as as much as I can is tocontinue buying Nike Air Force Ones.
I have like three pair of Nike airForce ones for me, for whatever reason.
(11:48):
That signals youth vitality.
You're not 45, you're a co-creativeand none of that is true.
Buying that does not make any of thattrue at all but I believe there's
something that Nike has put outthere that is signaled to me, Hey,
this is important for you to have.
You will not feel old if you buythese shoes and I believe it and
(12:12):
I continue to buy and when they'rereally just like shoes that fall apart
faster than they probably should.
And you totally understand.
I know that it actually doesn't makeme but it makes me feel this way.
Yes.
And that's what's important.
And that is resonating withyou and honestly, I think those
shoes are way more popular.
It's a status symbol as well.
Not just the youth but people won't gooutside unless they got $500 Nikes on.
(12:34):
And you better be careful not tostep on 'em or scuff 'em or constantly
hit a curb with them 'cause thatis quick depreciation in that.
Totally, I think the next phasefor me will be to get the Lou
Vuitton high tops or something.
I saw some guy wearing themin a really stupid restaurant.
And I was like, oh, that's sick andit was like an older gentleman that
was clearly much of the same vein ofholding onto youth but he like wore
(12:57):
them really well and I was like,that's the next step right there.
I have no idea how much they are but Iam assuming that I should not be buying
them because they're too expensive.
I tried to hold onto youth five yearsago and I used to skateboard, right?
Oh, nice.
So I bought some DC and Etna shoes, right?
Thinking I got some money now.
I should upgrade my shoes and I realizedlater these don't fit me or the style
(13:19):
of what I think I am or what I believeand I was like, what was I holding onto?
So I upgraded.
But again, those shoes broughtthat similar feeling where I was
like, I want a piece of that.
I realized later it wasn't for meand I wanted to shift but just those
psychological factors that go into apurchase decision and how we work our
marketing magic and design magic as well.
Great laughing already and the jokesand conversation but I wanna ask more
(13:42):
serious business related questions toextract some more knowledge from you.
'cause I think it'll be reallyhelpful for our audience here.
Kind of the essence of justfailing your weight to success
and how to be okay with it.
What does it look like?
What can you share with us to help us out?
Oh man.
I feel like my entire life hasjust been built on falling on
my face like multiple times.
(14:02):
What does that look like?
It could look something that's veryexpensive mistake that you make in
business when you're first starting out.
I'll use myself as an example.
I'm going through this right now.
So, the agency's been around for justfive years, we're still relatively young.
I still do my own bookkeeping and I shouldnot be doing my own bookkeeping and in
the beginning I was like, oh, it's fine.
I'll figure it out.
We're not working in like millionsand millions, so how hard can it be?
(14:24):
I went to run a report that, Idon't even know what it's called.
I have no idea what it's called butI called my accountant and I was
like, Hey, can you run this report?
She's like, yeah, no problem.
Just go through andreconcile all your books.
I was like, ah, got it.
Great.
No problem.
So I go into QuickBooks.
I reconcile everything.
10 minutes later, I give her a call.
I was like, finished.
She's like, what?
She gets on the call with me.
She's like, what did you do?
(14:45):
Because I know that She'slike, you didn't reconcile.
I was like, no, I did.
All I did in QuickBooks wasjust categorize an expense.
That's all I've ever done in QuickBooksfor five years is categorized expenses.
Five years.
She's like, have you neverreconciled your books?
Well, if by reconciled you mean I run areconciliation report, then no, I haven't.
(15:07):
She's like, okay, well we needto do that now blah, blah and
explained this whole thing.
So all to say that is a huge mistake.
That I had no idea that I was makingbecause I am not a bookkeeper.
I was treating my business financesthe way I treat my personal finances
and those are very different.
So that's one of many dumb mistakes thatI didn't really know that I was making.
(15:28):
I know now, and I'm glad that I did itbecause now that I've super dialed in
and I've gone through, I've actuallyback reconciled all of these accounts
because I need to know now exactlywhat's going on with everything.
I kind of knew the general thinkingwas, if there's money in the accounts.
Vendors are paid, bills are paid,what else do we need to know?
(15:48):
Right?
Turns out there's a lot morethat you really need to know and
a bookkeeper knows that shit.
It's so important.
Absolutely.
Many of us struggle with that.
Please tell us more 'cause we'reall making those mistakes right now.
Well, the biggest thing wasyou gotta forgive that mistake.
I personally have to forgivemyself in that because one of the
reasons why I broke it on my ownis I thought I can do this better.
(16:10):
I know how to make creative better.
So this is a hundred percent on me.
So when we succeed, I'm succeedingbut when we fail, I'm fucking failing.
And it burns when that happens.
Just small bookkeeping mistake is a bigone but there are others, smaller ones.
Where it becomes a littlebit more forgivable.
You're like, okay, we got acourse correct after that.
(16:30):
Large ones pricing a client incorrectlyand having to backpedal in each
shit and be like, oh, I'm sorry.
You know that's one that Ihave no resolution because
it changes client by client.
But the whole point there is when youfail and you will fail and you may
do it multiple times all you have toremember is, I wish I had a better
language to say this because it soundsin my mind, I like prejudge it as
(16:52):
being overly sappy but all you'rereally doing is you're just learning.
You're learning the hardway but you are learning it.
So the bookkeepingexample, perfect example.
I could have in the beginning, pickedup a book, watched some tutorials.
What do you need?
What does a business owner,what does a small business
need to know about bookkeeping?
I'm not doing that.
I don't need to do that.
(17:13):
I'll figure it out.
Well, my version of figuring it outis making a colossal mistake and
then forgiving the mistake and thenfiguring it out from from there.
But there's so much you can learn throughthat experience and taking that action.
Whereas if you had sat downand really dive deep into it.
Honestly, I feel like it may haveover complicated things and it
could have discouraged you from evenwanting to start in the first place.
(17:34):
So if you're a hands-on learner,just get in there and get dirty.
That's totally it.
That's that.
You hit it right over the head.
For me personally, Iam a hands-on learner.
You can't tell me not to touchthe stove because it's hot.
I'm gonna be like, oh, is it?
And they're like, oh shit.
It is.
But I feel like my entire life has beenall of these, I think I'm gonna try this
and I know how to do this and then, no,you don't know what you're doing and you
(17:57):
either stay in that lane and figure outanother way or you just switch lanes.
That was honestly part of the reasonwhy I switched into the creative track.
I had known that in college,I knew that I had like this
creativeness but I didn't understand.
I didn't know what to do with it.
So I thought, I did my undergraduateat VCU and at the time you could go
into the business side of advertisingor the creative side of advertising.
(18:20):
So I said, well, advertising is acreative industry but I'm gonna study the
business 'cause it's safer and I don'tknow what to do with the creativity.
So I go through that.
I start working as a mediaplanner and media planning is.
Hard.
You have to know how to use excel.
You have to do math all the time.
Both of those things,they're just not for me.
So I had one of the most graciousbosses as a media plan that I'll ever
(18:45):
have probably in my entire career'cause she was like, you can't do
math and I was like, well, I meanI can do it with a calculator.
She was like, alright.
But long story short, I ended upbecoming creative or friends with the
creative team at this particular agency,they started pulling me into creative
meetings and they started using my ideas.
So the business part of mewas like, whoa, well wait.
(19:08):
You're buying ideas.
You're getting my ideas for freebut you're paying me for media.
You should be paying me for the ideas.
I'm like 23 at the time.
So I go into my boss's office, I'mlike, Hey, they used one of my concepts
in a meeting, so you need to pay.
And she was like, shecould go fuck right off.
You're 23.
Are you kidding?
And I was like, oh, I didn't know.
Huge mistake.
Should not have gone into my boss's officeand been like, oh, you need to pay me.
(19:31):
Like, nope, it's not how that works.
Did that inspire you to start yourown business then to branch off?
Or was it a bit later?
It was much later.
So after that, I went andtalked to the creative director.
I was like, Hey, I think I wanna do this.
He's like, yeah you havelike the right kind of weird.
You could totally do this.
So I was like, oh, I'll just movemy desk back and do I get a Mac now?
And he's like, no.
You need to go back to school.
(19:51):
You need to prove that you have talent.
You need to like refine all of this.
And I was like, oh shit.
What does that mean?
So he gave me the name of the portfolioschools, like Portfolio Center,
creative Circus, VCU Brand Center.
I applied to all three.
Got into all three andchose portfolio Center.
Down in Atlanta, moved down, didtwo years there and then that just
(20:12):
changed the trajectory of everything.
Yeah.
But I feel like you not had that earlyon experience and realized, I think
the creative side is gonna be a bitmore, long-term a better fit for you.
If the math and just the spreadsheets.
Don't appeal to you.
That is gonna be a long journeyworking for someone else or
even trying to do that freelance
(20:32):
but it sounds like you found thatmesh between your creative side,
people are willing to pay you for it.
You're great at it.
People love the work and it'sbuilt something bigger than just
where you were at when you were 23.
Kevin.
Now, where can people find out more aboutyou and get connected with you online?
The best place is LinkedIn.
I'm like the most active onLinkedIn just by either searching
(20:53):
Walla design or Kevin Fenton.
I have an Instagram account forWalla design but it is updated
three times a year if we're lucky.
I tell a lot.
I teach coach a lot of clients onsocial media and what to do but I
do not follow any of that advice.
Total shoes for the kids.
That's it.
Absolutely.
We'll have those links available downin the description, the show notes
for everybody so we can get connectedprobably preferably on LinkedIn there.
(21:16):
Kevin, we wanna open the floor for you.
Anything we haven't discussedyet that you just wanna share?
A piece of advice maybeyou'd share with yourself?
If your younger self or other businessowners who might just be starting?
I would say just do it anyway.
Whatever it is, just do it anyways.
Just do it.
There's a quote that said something tothe effect of like, oh, I'm too scared to
start this thing or I'm too scared to do.
Well then do it scared but by notdo it, you know what will happen
(21:39):
if you don't do it, you will bedoing the same thing every day.
So just go, I really wish I had startedout freelancing and starting my own
business a lot earlier than I did.
Then rather than try to fit into andassimilate to all of these other places
that I had, I just wasn't able to do it.
So yeah, do it anyway.
(21:59):
Just do one or two things that bring thatvision a little bit closer to real life.
And just do it.
I love that.
It's important, the actionpiece, just getting out there.
If we kind of get in our heads toomuch, that mindset piece, we're gonna
talk ourselves out of a lot of thingsand just delay and procrastinate and I
think at the end of the day, we're gonnabe happier with failing and having
tried it versus not trying it all.
And I think that's really important.
(22:21):
Kevin, thank you so much forjoining us and sharing your
advice and wisdom with us.
Yeah, I'm happy to do itand thanks for having me.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, Kevin.
We appreciate it.
And make sure you check out the shownotes description to find out more special
offers and the links to Kevin as well.
Thank you so much.
When we succeed, I'm succeeding,but when we fail, I'm bailing
(00:04):
and it burns when that happens.
You are listening to Brainwork Framework,a Business and Marketing podcast,
brought to you by Focused-biz.com.
Welcome back to another episode.
With us today is the founder and ChiefCreative Officer of Walla Design.
Kevin Fenton, Walla Design is a fullsservice creative agency based in
Washington DC with nearly two decadesof expertise in crafting meaningful
(00:24):
brands across different sectors.
Kevin, so excited to have you on.
How you doing today?
Doing great.
Thank you for having me on.
Absolutely.
So excited to get more into your journey.
Tell us more about what you'redoing before that led you
into what you're doing now.
Well, right before I jumped off andstarted my own business, I worked for
a series of creative agencies thatbased here in DC and then previously
(00:47):
before that out in LA, before thatI was at the Abercrombie and Fitch
Home office in Columbus, Ohio.
And then before thatI was a media planner.
So I've had a really kind ofweird ping pong trajectory that
brought me to where I am today.
That's super cool but a lot ofdifferent experience that prepares
you for everything you're doing now.
So tell me more about WallaDesign and what you focus on.
So it's a creative agency.
(01:08):
Is this just logos and some content?
Or does go into more technical stuff likestrategy and all encompassing service?
It's really all encompassing.
We do a lot of brand strategywork and media planning work.
That really serves as thecornerstone Foundation for all of
the creative work that we can do.
The perfect world scenario is obviouslythat we get to drive strategy, drive
(01:30):
creative and then drive the executionon a project but it doesn't always
work in such an all encompassing way.
So we're trained up on being able to hopinto an existing brand, internalize and
operate within it but then also able tolay the track work and then jump right in.
Oh, that's awesome.
So you're actually able to go inif they've kind of either started a
(01:50):
process or have this vision already.
You can hop in there whereverthey're at in the process and be
able to see it through to the end.
Yeah, totally.
We just recently completed a project forBaccarat Hotels, which is baccarat brand.
The Baccarat brand is a deep legacythat goes back to the 18 hundreds.
And so that logo is sacrosanctand completely untouchable.
(02:11):
But there's a lot of rich storytellingthat gets involved with that brand
specifically, but also in theproject that we were working on.
So it was really a game of gettinginto their brand guide, seeing what
we can and cannot get away with.
Trying to push on that a littlebit and then create something that
was fantastic and well received.
It's always such a unique position togo into an existing brand and they have
(02:34):
these brand guidelines and again, like,what was that two centuries of history
that you're trying to replicate and howfar we can we push this to keep up with
either current trends or what you'reseeing but still stay true to the brand.
And that's gotta be difficult workingin but you get so many different
creative projects, I'm sure likeone project is whether you're doing
the same deliverables, Hey, you'reworking on a logo completely separate
(02:57):
based on the business or the industryand it just endless options for you.
Yeah.
The tools for all the creativeprojects we work on are all the same.
It's thinking out or I was gonnasay thinking outside of the box but
that's such a trite way to put it.
It's like thinking differently.
We have all the same design toolsthat all of the creatives use but
(03:17):
every single business is tryingto tell a very different story.
Even if you're in the samecategory or same vertical.
You are going to have a different pointof view on that industry that you work in.
So a great example is we're working ona project right now for a healthcare
system out in Southern California.
They started out specifically doing AIDSoutreach in the L-G-B-T-Q community but
(03:40):
now they've since expanded beyond that.
So they're trying to remain true to theroots of the brand but still expand on
their services and evolve that story.
So we're now working on a projectwhere we're taking their existing logo,
which is untouchable, studying it,trying to understand quite literally,
not figuratively, but the literalproportion relationship that the
(04:02):
letter forms have to create the wholemark and then extract design language
out of that and redesign their brand
but keeping that logo in place, all inthe name of trying to level up and tell
this more positive, aspirational story andcreate this emotional connection that they
have with the work that they do is hard.
(04:24):
It's a hard, I mean, when I hearmyself explain it, I'm like,
Jesus, that sounds insane and notpossible but it's super possible.
It's super possible.
I think it's a testament to your abilityto go above and beyond for the clients.
You're like, okay, what is the end result?
And how do I best execute this?
And despite the obstacles you're gonnaface trying to recreate that, it has
to be done to get their vision right.
(04:44):
Totally.
And it is really one of the big questionsI always try to understand or I ask
but in the name of trying to understandwhat a client is really trying to
communicate is how do you want peopleto feel when they fill in the blank?
When they're on my website, when they'rereading my newsletter, it really does come
down to how do you want people to feelwhen they're engaging with their brand?
(05:07):
And sometimes that list ofemotions is really long.
Sometimes it's pretty short.
But if you can kind of dial it down tothree to four key emotions, then you
can design around that and pull thosepieces out in a really creative way.
It is really fascinating, theemotional connections between
design and our behaviors as a wholewithin marketing and business.
(05:28):
Are there either tried and true emotionalfactors that you kind of put in where
it's like, blue is communicationor this typeface represents this?
Or are things kind of changing aspeople perceive things differently?
That's a great question.
Alright, so I'll startwith the color one first.
'cause there's a wholecolor theory around.
Certain colors make you feel certain.
(05:48):
I remember this very old commercialfrom the nineties that was a local
paint shop that you want yourdining room to be painted yellow
because your food will taste better.
And I was like, what?
That is not a thing.
And I kind of mostly believe, I mean,I'm sure there are studies out there
that support that and they're like, yeah.
It gives you a much better feelingand yellow is a really happy color
and short but I'm not a strongbeliever in your logo must be
(06:11):
this color to convey this emotion.
I've worked with a finance companythat was rebranding and it was
an association that representeda ton of financial institutions.
So the instinct was to go quite literallyinto the blue color palette, because that
blue usually communicates security, trustand a lot of financial institutions use
(06:36):
the color blue to communicate that thing.
And I was like, I didn't love that idea'cause it's just such a shallow insight.
But only through discovering, onlythrough the research where we're
able to pull out why is security soimportant in financial institutions.
We can hypothesize on that forever butuntil you actually hear from banking
people who work in jumbo mortgageswho are quite literally scared to
(07:00):
handle other people's money or moreimportantly, they're afraid that they're
going to mess up somebody else's money.
That's where that trust kind ofcomes from or that's what you're
really trying to communicate.
So if you make it blue, doesthat make it more trustworthy?
Not exactly.
You need to look at the languageyou're using to communicate that.
You need to look at the typeface you'regoing to use to communicate that 'cause
(07:21):
I've always considered the typeface to bethe dialect that you're reading it in or
the personality that you're reading it in.
So I'll use the financial institutionexample, a serif typeface, like a
Times New Roman or something that haslittle leg to it that has a lot more
legacy of academia attached to that.
So when you read that, italmost feels more important.
(07:43):
Like if you're reading a bank statement.
That's been type set in comic sands.
I wouldn't take that seriously.
I only send my analyticsreport to papaya now.
So,
God, this is a total tangent but beforeI became a designer, before I even got
into creative, I was a media plannerand I worked at an ad agency and I
wanted to show that I was creativetoo and I labeled all my binders with
(08:07):
papyrus because of Microsoft Word.
That's like the most design font youcan get and I was so proud of them
taking them around to the creativeteam not knowing at all that was one
of the dumbest things I could have donefrom the standpoint of a designer but
for people that don't know and I wasdefinitely someone that didn't know.
I was like, no, this is amazing.
(08:27):
It looks great.
Yeah.
I didn't mean to detractbut I love that story.
No, no, and
I'm glad you knew whatI was talking about.
Totally.
I kind of like this idea oftaking the shittiest type.
I don't know if I can curse on this thingbut you can to take the shittiest typeface
and design something beautiful with itbecause you can't, like, I'll shit all
over a typeface all day, especially onelike comic sense or something like that.
(08:49):
But it's designed for a reason.
It's around still for a reason and I'mconvinced that I can find the right
project to evoke that specific level ofemotion that needs this nonsensical sort
of happy go lucky or lucky kind of feelto it that comic stands would totally fit.
I haven't found that project yetbut I like the idea of trying to
(09:10):
work with the shittiest typefaceto make something beautiful.
That would be super cool.
I would watch a TikTok short on that.
Yeah.
If you redesigned a popular logo and justput it into comics hands like, let's do
our best try to make comic sands work.
That'd be cool.
All right.
Well, now I gotta get a TikTok account.
Yeah, right.
I'm still behind on the times too.
YouTube shorts can work great too.
That'll be fine.
YouTube shorts.
(09:31):
There we go.
Very nice.
I forgot the original questionand I think I completely deviate.
It was using the blue for the financialinstitutions but also using times New
Roman in academia and using the typefaceor the colors to invoke emotion or
to communicate something to someone.
I'm trying to think if there areother ways or other tools that
we can use or other ways thedesigners will implement that.
(09:53):
I mean to pull out and evokea specific emotion and digital
is another really great tool,especially with animation coming in.
It's always been around but like we'reseeing it a lot more and more and
digital engagement that you can do a lot.
I hate to use an Apple examplebecause every designer will use
an Apple example but when thehome pod was first introduced.
Apple did this really beautiful,just very simple animation on scroll.
(10:17):
As you scroll down the page,the thing would just come up.
It would come apart, it wouldopen and you would see all this
stuff and it just felt important.
There was this very cool feeling aboutit and this was a very significant
piece of technology that if youdon't have this then you have no
business being in tech or whatever.
I bought two home pods after seeing thatboth of them are completely irrelevant.
(10:41):
I still use them and I like thembecause it feels important but
that marketing fully worked on me.
Isn't it crazy to be on the receivingend and we know what we're being marketed
to and I know what you're doing butI accept, I agree to this marketing.
Yes, because you sold me on the copyor the design or just everything that
comes together, you're like, this iswhat I want and did a great job with it.
(11:03):
Yes.
I use myself as an idiot consumer allthe time with clients because one thing,
that's the hardest thing for me totry to dial a client into like, what
is it that you are actually selling?
You've got a product.
Yes, you have a service but there'ssomething beyond the product and
service that you're selling and theexample I use a lot is with myself
which is a hundred percent true.
I'm 45 now and I'm not ready toaccept that I'm 45, so I am like
(11:28):
gripping onto youth in a waythat some people may find sad.
They're like, you gotta let that go butone of the ways that I am like holding
onto youth as as much as I can is tocontinue buying Nike Air Force Ones.
I have like three pair of Nike airForce ones for me, for whatever reason.
(11:48):
That signals youth vitality.
You're not 45, you're a co-creativeand none of that is true.
Buying that does not make any of thattrue at all but I believe there's
something that Nike has put outthere that is signaled to me, Hey,
this is important for you to have.
You will not feel old if you buythese shoes and I believe it and
(12:12):
I continue to buy and when they'rereally just like shoes that fall apart
faster than they probably should.
And you totally understand.
I know that it actually doesn't makeme but it makes me feel this way.
Yes.
And that's what's important.
And that is resonating withyou and honestly, I think those
shoes are way more popular.
It's a status symbol as well.
Not just the youth but people won't gooutside unless they got $500 Nikes on.
(12:34):
And you better be careful not tostep on 'em or scuff 'em or constantly
hit a curb with them 'cause thatis quick depreciation in that.
Totally, I think the next phasefor me will be to get the Lou
Vuitton high tops or something.
I saw some guy wearing themin a really stupid restaurant.
And I was like, oh, that's sick andit was like an older gentleman that
was clearly much of the same vein ofholding onto youth but he like wore
(12:57):
them really well and I was like,that's the next step right there.
I have no idea how much they are but Iam assuming that I should not be buying
them because they're too expensive.
I tried to hold onto youth five yearsago and I used to skateboard, right?
Oh, nice.
So I bought some DC and Etna shoes, right?
Thinking I got some money now.
I should upgrade my shoes and I realizedlater these don't fit me or the style
(13:19):
of what I think I am or what I believeand I was like, what was I holding onto?
So I upgraded.
But again, those shoes broughtthat similar feeling where I was
like, I want a piece of that.
I realized later it wasn't for meand I wanted to shift but just those
psychological factors that go into apurchase decision and how we work our
marketing magic and design magic as well.
Great laughing already and the jokesand conversation but I wanna ask more
(13:42):
serious business related questions toextract some more knowledge from you.
'cause I think it'll be reallyhelpful for our audience here.
Kind of the essence of justfailing your weight to success
and how to be okay with it.
What does it look like?
What can you share with us to help us out?
Oh man.
I feel like my entire life hasjust been built on falling on
my face like multiple times.
(14:02):
What does that look like?
It could look something that's veryexpensive mistake that you make in
business when you're first starting out.
I'll use myself as an example.
I'm going through this right now.
So, the agency's been around for justfive years, we're still relatively young.
I still do my own bookkeeping and I shouldnot be doing my own bookkeeping and in
the beginning I was like, oh, it's fine.
I'll figure it out.
We're not working in like millionsand millions, so how hard can it be?
(14:24):
I went to run a report that, Idon't even know what it's called.
I have no idea what it's called butI called my accountant and I was
like, Hey, can you run this report?
She's like, yeah, no problem.
Just go through andreconcile all your books.
I was like, ah, got it.
Great.
No problem.
So I go into QuickBooks.
I reconcile everything.
10 minutes later, I give her a call.
I was like, finished.
She's like, what?
She gets on the call with me.
She's like, what did you do?
(14:45):
Because I know that She'slike, you didn't reconcile.
I was like, no, I did.
All I did in QuickBooks wasjust categorize an expense.
That's all I've ever done in QuickBooksfor five years is categorized expenses.
Five years.
She's like, have you neverreconciled your books?
Well, if by reconciled you mean I run areconciliation report, then no, I haven't.
(15:07):
She's like, okay, well we needto do that now blah, blah and
explained this whole thing.
So all to say that is a huge mistake.
That I had no idea that I was makingbecause I am not a bookkeeper.
I was treating my business financesthe way I treat my personal finances
and those are very different.
So that's one of many dumb mistakes thatI didn't really know that I was making.
(15:28):
I know now, and I'm glad that I did itbecause now that I've super dialed in
and I've gone through, I've actuallyback reconciled all of these accounts
because I need to know now exactlywhat's going on with everything.
I kind of knew the general thinkingwas, if there's money in the accounts.
Vendors are paid, bills are paid,what else do we need to know?
(15:48):
Right?
Turns out there's a lot morethat you really need to know and
a bookkeeper knows that shit.
It's so important.
Absolutely.
Many of us struggle with that.
Please tell us more 'cause we'reall making those mistakes right now.
Well, the biggest thing wasyou gotta forgive that mistake.
I personally have to forgivemyself in that because one of the
reasons why I broke it on my ownis I thought I can do this better.
(16:10):
I know how to make creative better.
So this is a hundred percent on me.
So when we succeed, I'm succeedingbut when we fail, I'm fucking failing.
And it burns when that happens.
Just small bookkeeping mistake is a bigone but there are others, smaller ones.
Where it becomes a littlebit more forgivable.
You're like, okay, we got acourse correct after that.
(16:30):
Large ones pricing a client incorrectlyand having to backpedal in each
shit and be like, oh, I'm sorry.
You know that's one that Ihave no resolution because
it changes client by client.
But the whole point there is when youfail and you will fail and you may
do it multiple times all you have toremember is, I wish I had a better
language to say this because it soundsin my mind, I like prejudge it as
(16:52):
being overly sappy but all you'rereally doing is you're just learning.
You're learning the hardway but you are learning it.
So the bookkeepingexample, perfect example.
I could have in the beginning, pickedup a book, watched some tutorials.
What do you need?
What does a business owner,what does a small business
need to know about bookkeeping?
I'm not doing that.
I don't need to do that.
(17:13):
I'll figure it out.
Well, my version of figuring it outis making a colossal mistake and
then forgiving the mistake and thenfiguring it out from from there.
But there's so much you can learn throughthat experience and taking that action.
Whereas if you had sat downand really dive deep into it.
Honestly, I feel like it may haveover complicated things and it
could have discouraged you from evenwanting to start in the first place.
(17:34):
So if you're a hands-on learner,just get in there and get dirty.
That's totally it.
That's that.
You hit it right over the head.
For me personally, Iam a hands-on learner.
You can't tell me not to touchthe stove because it's hot.
I'm gonna be like, oh, is it?
And they're like, oh shit.
It is.
But I feel like my entire life has beenall of these, I think I'm gonna try this
and I know how to do this and then, no,you don't know what you're doing and you
(17:57):
either stay in that lane and figure outanother way or you just switch lanes.
That was honestly part of the reasonwhy I switched into the creative track.
I had known that in college,I knew that I had like this
creativeness but I didn't understand.
I didn't know what to do with it.
So I thought, I did my undergraduateat VCU and at the time you could go
into the business side of advertisingor the creative side of advertising.
(18:20):
So I said, well, advertising is acreative industry but I'm gonna study the
business 'cause it's safer and I don'tknow what to do with the creativity.
So I go through that.
I start working as a mediaplanner and media planning is.
Hard.
You have to know how to use excel.
You have to do math all the time.
Both of those things,they're just not for me.
So I had one of the most graciousbosses as a media plan that I'll ever
(18:45):
have probably in my entire career'cause she was like, you can't do
math and I was like, well, I meanI can do it with a calculator.
She was like, alright.
But long story short, I ended upbecoming creative or friends with the
creative team at this particular agency,they started pulling me into creative
meetings and they started using my ideas.
So the business part of mewas like, whoa, well wait.
(19:08):
You're buying ideas.
You're getting my ideas for freebut you're paying me for media.
You should be paying me for the ideas.
I'm like 23 at the time.
So I go into my boss's office, I'mlike, Hey, they used one of my concepts
in a meeting, so you need to pay.
And she was like, shecould go fuck right off.
You're 23.
Are you kidding?
And I was like, oh, I didn't know.
Huge mistake.
Should not have gone into my boss's officeand been like, oh, you need to pay me.
(19:31):
Like, nope, it's not how that works.
Did that inspire you to start yourown business then to branch off?
Or was it a bit later?
It was much later.
So after that, I went andtalked to the creative director.
I was like, Hey, I think I wanna do this.
He's like, yeah you havelike the right kind of weird.
You could totally do this.
So I was like, oh, I'll just movemy desk back and do I get a Mac now?
And he's like, no.
You need to go back to school.
(19:51):
You need to prove that you have talent.
You need to like refine all of this.
And I was like, oh shit.
What does that mean?
So he gave me the name of the portfolioschools, like Portfolio Center,
creative Circus, VCU Brand Center.
I applied to all three.
Got into all three andchose portfolio Center.
Down in Atlanta, moved down, didtwo years there and then that just
(20:12):
changed the trajectory of everything.
Yeah.
But I feel like you not had that earlyon experience and realized, I think
the creative side is gonna be a bitmore, long-term a better fit for you.
If the math and just the spreadsheets.
Don't appeal to you.
That is gonna be a long journeyworking for someone else or
even trying to do that freelance
(20:32):
but it sounds like you found thatmesh between your creative side,
people are willing to pay you for it.
You're great at it.
People love the work and it'sbuilt something bigger than just
where you were at when you were 23.
Kevin.
Now, where can people find out more aboutyou and get connected with you online?
The best place is LinkedIn.
I'm like the most active onLinkedIn just by either searching
(20:53):
Walla design or Kevin Fenton.
I have an Instagram account forWalla design but it is updated
three times a year if we're lucky.
I tell a lot.
I teach coach a lot of clients onsocial media and what to do but I
do not follow any of that advice.
Total shoes for the kids.
That's it.
Absolutely.
We'll have those links available downin the description, the show notes
for everybody so we can get connectedprobably preferably on LinkedIn there.
(21:16):
Kevin, we wanna open the floor for you.
Anything we haven't discussedyet that you just wanna share?
A piece of advice maybeyou'd share with yourself?
If your younger self or other businessowners who might just be starting?
I would say just do it anyway.
Whatever it is, just do it anyways.
Just do it.
There's a quote that said something tothe effect of like, oh, I'm too scared to
start this thing or I'm too scared to do.
Well then do it scared but by notdo it, you know what will happen
(21:39):
if you don't do it, you will bedoing the same thing every day.
So just go, I really wish I had startedout freelancing and starting my own
business a lot earlier than I did.
Then rather than try to fit into andassimilate to all of these other places
that I had, I just wasn't able to do it.
So yeah, do it anyway.
(21:59):
Just do one or two things that bring thatvision a little bit closer to real life.
And just do it.
I love that.
It's important, the actionpiece, just getting out there.
If we kind of get in our heads toomuch, that mindset piece, we're gonna
talk ourselves out of a lot of thingsand just delay and procrastinate and I
think at the end of the day, we're gonnabe happier with failing and having
tried it versus not trying it all.
And I think that's really important.
(22:21):
Kevin, thank you so much forjoining us and sharing your
advice and wisdom with us.
Yeah, I'm happy to do itand thanks for having me.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, Kevin.
We appreciate it.
And make sure you check out the shownotes description to find out more special
offers and the links to Kevin as well.
Thank you so much.
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