June 25, 2025 • 26 mins
Join Kim Nakamaru, General Counsel of Relativity Space, as she shares her insights on leading in high-growth sectors, particularly in the rapidly-evolving world of space technology. This episode explores her journey from competitive sports to executive leadership and the crucial lessons learned about resilience, adaptability, and the entrepreneurial spirit necessary to propel innovative companies forward.
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LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/kim-nakamaru-89a07a27
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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-troka-3a093058/
Website: https://focused-biz.com/
Website: https://christroka.com/ #brainwork #framework #business #entrpreneur #resillience #adaptability
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
A huge priority to make sure that Iactually have a pulse or I have people
that are gonna have a pulse on what'sactually happening within your team,
because otherwise it's in one of theselagging indicators or people either
voting with their feet and leavingthe company or you, you have pockets
of disconnect or silos within yourorganizations that you should have got
(00:20):
rooted out probably six months ago.
You are listening to Brainwork Framework,a Business and Marketing podcast,
brought to you by Focused-biz.com.
With us today is Kim Nakamaru.
She's the general counsel but overseesmany functions of Relativity space.
Relativity Space is a rapidly scalingrocket company and leader in large scale
additive 3D, printing, manufacturing ona trajectory to become a commercial space
(00:42):
launch company and US government partnerfor critical R and D and innovation
featuring over 1200 plus employees.
Kim, so excited to have you on.
How are you doing today?
I'm doing great.
You nailed that company description.
Well, thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
So excited to have you on.
Tell us more about your backgroundand experience and how that kind
of brought you into what you'redoing today at Relativity Space.
(01:03):
Yeah, I'm a lawyer by trade andI'm still a lawyer, a happy one.
And I came to rocketryin a non-linear way.
I think any person and any executivewill say that they zigzagged through
and ever foresaw where they might haveended up but I've always had a passion
for whether that's building from anathletic perspective, building your
(01:25):
academic career or building businesses.
So when I came out of law school or evenwhen I was thinking about law school,
I wasn't thinking about this of wantingto be law and order on tv, though I
did do a stint with a federal judge,which was very much somewhat like that.
I really believe that every piece alongyour way builds to where you're getting.
(01:47):
And so starting with that particularjudge, he wasn't a typical litigator.
Who did trials.
He was actually a mergers and acquisitionslawyer and a general counsel by trade,
which I think he might have been theonly judge on the federal bench who
had a background quite like that and
he did things his own way so I wouldcredit judge, his name's Judge Spencer
(02:09):
Letz, but really kind of teachingme that things don't have to be
traditional, you don't have to go toX or Y school and then go down this
path in order to forge the career thatyou want and that suits your soul.
And so here, similar to him, Iwent into an M and A practice at
a large law firm right away butnotwithstanding it being a large law
(02:33):
firm, I aligned with a partner therewho enabled me to have a large remit.
So yes, we did mergers andacquisitions in large part in the
sports and entertainment space butalso the telecommunication space.
But because I have an entrepreneurialspirit, part of my pro bono practice,
meaning when you're providing freelegal services, one of the things I did
was provide outside general counsel toearly stage tech companies who didn't
(02:57):
have legal services and so that was myfirst taste in what a general counsel
might do, and working with founders andentrepreneurs who are gonna throw whatever
it is that they have in front of you.
So that's where I said, oh judgeLutz, I can see why that type
of role would be interesting.
So when the opportunity presented itself,four or five years into my tenure at the
law firm to go into a company, that'swhen I took my first step into a broad
(03:22):
base, director of corporate role at acompany called Global Legal Entertainment,
which public company here in LA tolearn all aspects of a global business.
And so then, almost five years andbecame the general counsel there.
Eventually served as generalcounsel for a couple of years.
That was an aviation and median contentbusiness and even though I went there
(03:44):
because it scratched the sports andentertainment itch, it had a huge
satellite connectivity business.
International aviation and maritimebusiness and some government work too.
Then the next role that came alongas recruited to a tech company called
Eagleby Technologies based in Seattle.
That company was a geospatial technologycompany where they put what do you call
(04:06):
these different high res cameras on smallaircraft and we own the aircraft business.
So started to be where some of my currentroot scope in includes safety and I
was on the aviation safety board there.
Suddenly I'm going to hangers and dealingwith mechanics and technicians and I
never saw that coming but then equallyhaving a highly innovative software
(04:27):
as a service aspect of that business.
Huge IP function that I gotto build there and just like a
really high performing legal team.
So from there, was recruited to my currentcompany, relativity Space is a startup.
It's my first startup.
So my trajectory was public companygeneral counsel with some aviation
(04:47):
adjacency to a private equity backedcompany, this eagle view technology
company to now a venture backed startup.
So three very different spaces.
I think what was perhaps attractive aboutmy candidacy to the current company was
that I've been in highly regulated spacesbefore I scaled teams help businesses
(05:08):
scale and Relativity is at a positionnow and we can get into exactly where we
right now but we're a late stage startup
who's on a trajectory to scale, bothin terms of employees and in terms
of business size and market value.
So we're right at thishockey stick moment.
That is a really exciting thing.
In addition, it's rockets,we actually build rockets.
(05:30):
Yeah.
One of the two coolest subjectsthat literally every child
chooses one or the other.
It's either dinosaurs or it's space.
So rockets are the coolest thing.
No, and I have three boys, they're allunder the age of seven, and it's much
easier to explain that mommy does buildsrockets as opposed to saying, mommy is
in a SaaS business or when you're onan airplane, you're looking at movies.
(05:51):
Mommy does that.
I mean, I guess that's kind of tangiblebut quite literally, we're in a million
square foot rocket factoring Long Beach,right next to the Long Beach Airport.
We have huge pieces of rockethardware on the floor now, which
is different than a year ago or ayear and a half ago and I joined.
I travel to our NASA Stennis,Mississippi site, which is where
we test our engines and big firetrenches, test dams that are multiple
(06:16):
stories, you're on the bayou there.
We'll be shipping our rocketor part of the rocket through
the Panama Canal to get there.
Then it'll get back on a ship fromthe Bayou there and get over to
our launch site in Cape Canaveral.
And at Cape Canaveral, we'rebuilding our pad from scratch.
You can't just use apad for any old rocket.
You fit the pad to the specsof what you are building.
(06:38):
So though we've successfully launcheda 3D printed rocket to space a couple
years ago where the new rocket we'rebuilding, which is called the Terran R.
Is it much larger rocket?
It's made specifically forthis low earth orbit satellite
telecommunication type of customer.
It's a beast.
So the launchpad similarly is a beastand my scope includes oversight of
(07:02):
the environmental health and safetyteam, which has responsibility for the
health and safety, a whole enterprisein addition to just some whip smart
environmental guys there who are makingsure that when we launch the rocket we
are not harming things in the water andhaving to run simulations basically force
things that have not been done before.
(07:23):
And having to prove to thegovernment why they should give us
a launch license for the directionsthat we wanna launch our rocket.
So it's a very engaging job.
Yeah.
A lot of regulations and pieces just toconsider, I mean, just first to be in
the type of work that you're doing and tocredit you for your entrepreneurial spirit
'cause it's so true that many ofus, we don't really know where
we're gonna end up but we'rewilling to take new opportunities
(07:45):
if a door's gonna open itself.
And we're willing tolearn and apply ourselves.
We can do these new jobs thatare similar yet very different
and grow our experience.
And I think you're a great exampleof that, just, Hey, can I take
these past skills and apply tosomething new and continue learning?
Yes, and I truly believe thatgreat leadership transcends
functions in companies.
(08:06):
I when I first joined the company,zero companies by and large,
these are actual rocket engineersand many of them have progressed
quickly into their leadership roles.
And I remember when I was hired justas the general counsel to do legal.
Within the first few weeks of mytenure came the opportunity to
take on a few other functions.
(08:26):
The other one was being employeerelations, which was formerly part of the
Human Resources Department and I remembervisiting the Sinis Mississippi site and
a couple of our famous rocket scientiststhere who are high VP pluses in the
company, asked like, what makes you thinkthat you as a lawyer could run these other
companies that are not in your scope?
(08:47):
And I said, look, you don't have tobe the subject matter expert to be an
excellent leader and I've seen that.
And you don't have to benecessarily the best of that
thing to be a great leader either.
It's like I've been the captain of thesports teams from the time I was small
until I was through the end of collegeand sure it was because I was a great
(09:08):
athlete in whatever sport that was.
But you gotta learn how to also lead whenthe chips are against you or when you
get kicked out of whatever boat I wasin in college and you still are having
to be the leader and being able to showteams what that looks like and how to
succeed and to find success differentlyand lead people of all different types.
(09:28):
And also putting the right peopleagainst the right problems, right?
I think that doesn't matter what functionyou are at, like your job as a leader
is to empower your teams to do greatwork and to help guide them to that
north star that you are getting towards.
And for us, it's getting toour first launch as quickly as
we can of this tear R Rocket.
Very cool.
And I think a lot of business ownersand leaders out there kind of struggle
(09:51):
with building the right team andmotivating them in the right way.
Sometimes they fall into the trap ofeither trying to micromanage too much or
they're just so hands off that they don'tknow what's happening in the day to day.
That's why I loved about a lotof the topics that you wanted
to cover is just leadership.
How do we become better leaders?
How does this kind of influence our team,our clients and our company as a whole?
What does it take to be this good leader?
(10:12):
You said it's great just to beable to lead but you don't have
to be a subject matter expert.
What are some of the qualities of leadersand what do you think people are doing
wrong right now in terms of leadership.
Yeah, I think good leadership startswith understanding that chess pieces you
have on the table and whether it is thatyou're coming in fresh to a new company.
As I've done a couple of times to a teamthat didn't know what to expect from
(10:33):
their new general counsel or whetheryou're building a team that might
be outside of your domain expertise.
You have to start fundamentally withunderstanding your leaders and their
teams because you shouldn't juststop at your direct reports, you
often get the real from the peoplewho are actually doing the work.
So I make it a quiet.
A huge priority to make sure thatI actually have a pulse or I have
(10:56):
people that are gonna have a pulseon what's actually happening within
your team because otherwise it's inone of these lagging indicators where
people either voting with their feetand leaving the company or you have
pockets of disconnect or silos withinyour organizations that you should have
got rooted out probably six months ago.
Right.
And those are difficult decisions to make.
(11:16):
It's like, did we hire the right person?
Should I cut it off now or waitto see if they grow and can we
mold them into something better?
It's a challenge.
Maybe it's not the rightfit for an employee.
How do leaders focus now in 2025?
I feel like the demand inthe labor market has shifted.
I feel like the labor workforce has a bitmore negotiating and bargaining powers.
Maybe they're looking for flexibleoptions or work from home options.
(11:41):
So it seems like leaders need to motivateand inspire them in different ways.
Are you seeing changes or shifts inthe way leaders are kind of inspiring
their team or even hiring and firing?
Yeah, I think so.
It's an interesting time.
I think back in the fall of this pastyear, everyone was kind of waiting to see
what was gonna happen with the election,and then we'll wait till the inauguration,
(12:02):
we'll wait till after year end.
And then we're gonna seewhat we're doing with hiring.
And I think it is strange right nowthe hiring market 'cause on one hand
we're seeing not that much hiring buton the other hand we're not sure why,
and it could be people who are inokay jobs or just kind of standing by
'cause there's a concern out there where,gosh, if I leave, so much instability
(12:25):
in the markets, both financial marketsbut then also I think the labor markets.
I don't know if people are willingto take that extra step out.
Go to somewhere where maybe thingseither won't be better or there'll be
a series of layoffs that are makingthe rounds around the industry.
I mean, obviously in the federalgovernment a lot of our customers are
(12:45):
government research and development.
So for us, we're having an interestingdynamic there and we have a lot
of interest because of that.
So I do think that employers,as far as what they're offering,
I think that's one topic.
But I think what you can do when you'reon the inside and this is more about
retention, is people at the end of theday, you gotta know what motivates people.
(13:07):
Like some people are indeedmotivated by the financial package
but a lot of people are motivated.
And I would say I'm one of these peoplethat wants to be on a winning team.
Not only a winning team, whateveryour functional team is but a winning
business and right now, relativity,just this week announced the change
of our CCEO to the CEO of Google.
(13:28):
Eric Schmidt, who talk about a winner.
I really look forward to what thatmeans for us as an executive team and
our founder Tim Ellis, is still gonnabe with the company as in his board
capacity and truth be told, he was ahuge reason I wanted to join this company
'cause I have a heart for founders.
I love seeing the twists andturns and of a business and
(13:50):
working with founders and CEOs.
Helping them guide through uncertaintyor how to best, if there's a
crack to go through, I'm gonnago find that crack for that guy.
So that's been a lot of thejourney with Tim and he is just an
inspirational human being who startedthe company on the back of a napkin.
(14:10):
Sounds stereotypical but it's trueand he thought that the humanity
dependent on being able to largescale 3D print and also enables life
in an interplanetary way potentially.
And so sounds like a boy's pipe dreamhas turned into reality and I'm excited
to see what Eric Schmidt brings tous from like an an operational rigor.
(14:33):
He's obviously quite well known forthe success he brought to Google.
He took over right wing, Google wastaking over from their founders.
So here you almost seehistory repeating itself.
Hopefully, 15 years later from his tenure.
2011 is when he left Googleand this is his first CEO role
(14:53):
since then.
So to say that we're thrilledby that is an understatement.
And what that means for our abilityto attract and retain the best and
the brightest and the smartest tocome to a place where we like really
think our culture's different too.
So to your point of what you're doingfor employees, we really think we could
win without having to be a psychotic,cutthroat place but make no mistake and we
(15:18):
are very hardcore, we have expectations.
You can't try to launch a rocketin a year and a half from now
by sitting on your laurels.
Definitely need some actions.
First, congratulationson acquiring the new CEO.
Hopefully he can bring in a lot ofthe technology and just advancements.
He brought Google in the early stageof the startup and the growth phase
that Google saw early on in thoseyears but something that you kind of
(15:41):
mentioned just right now is, a lotof businesses and people were waiting
till after the election and thenwaiting till after the inauguration.
Just that fear and uncertainty that'shappening both in the markets and business
and international trade space right now.
But leaders kind of need to remainstrong and steadfast during these times.
Should they be showing emotions?
How do they kind of manage the feelingswith reality versus the decision making
(16:04):
with all the uncertainty going on, howdo they kind of like stay on the path?
I think there's ways to support yourculture that you've built at your business
in a way that doesn't use catchphrasesthat people have an allergic reaction
to because for example, one of ourcore values at Relativity is humanity.
And I think thattranscends who's in office.
We support our employees whoever they areand however they show up every day and we
(16:26):
really believe that's a strength of ours.
So you don't have to use these catchphraseterms to describe that and we believe
our culture is indeed reflective ofour belief in everyone's humanity.
So I do agree though it isa hard time for businesses.
I think this is probably one of thetop topics for any executive team
(16:48):
is how do we deal with the executiveorders, what are we gonna say?
And especially for a business thatlike ours, where we have government
customers, this is a very volatilesubject within any business.
And certainly one where weclearly are going to comply
with the law and regulations.
And I think employees are smart enough tounderstand that two things could be true.
(17:10):
That on one hand youwill comply with the law.
You might not agree with it butwe're not going to formulate the law
but you can also equally supportyour employees and those the two
things don't have to be in conflict.
Yes.
I totally agree.
And one thing I wanted to ask 'causeas you were talking about 3D printing
rockets and shipping 'em across theocean, a lot of ideas came to mind.
(17:31):
So when I think of 3D printing, I'mthinking of that tabletop system, right?
And it's got little thread and it'smoving, is doing this for rockets at
a much bigger scale, is this a CapeCanaveral style, like 3D printer?
That's just humming around andbuilding or is it kind of built on
a smaller scale and piece together?
No.
Tim invented essentially the large scale3D printing that we became famous for.
(17:52):
And this is called Wire arcadditive manufacturing or wham.
So if you imagine, my son has thisthing called toy box, which is plastic.
And it makes the little toy, andthey're probably the size of your hand
at the biggest but this is like 18.
This thing takes up our ceilingslike a hundred feet high.
We can print things like 18 feet across.
(18:12):
So imagine it turns sideways.
So instead of something additivelycoming up, it's facing out.
So if you're thinking about thebarrel of a rocket, it comes out from
the build plate with metal wires.
And then there's theproprietary technology.
These arms come and fuse them together.
Oh, so cool.
Yes.
Yeah, that's really cool.
(18:33):
And there's another method called powderedfusion technology, which has been around
and we use a lot of that in our engines.
And that's more of a kind of a spray.
And you can imagine how coolthat is, especially if you come
from a manufacturing background.
My husband, one of the big primes and partof his scope was overseeing manufacturing
and if you're having an individuallook at every single one of these
(18:54):
parts and imagine if you just had one.
The amount of time that takes out ofthe integration and the tests of that
particular part is something thatwe really believe is going to be and
is a game changer in the industry.
Yeah, and it seems like it presentsjust a new set of challenges, like
you said, that quality controlpiece where it was each individual
piece now it's just there in one.
So it's like the challenges change.
(19:16):
They just shift and pivot a little bit butyou're just adapting to how the technology
changes and what what its needs will be.
Yeah and it doesn't take too muchof a stretch of imagination to
think about how the governmentmight use some of this technology.
I mean, that's some of the thingsI can't talk about expressly
but the government is itching.
Right.
To get to what with our businessdevelopment teams across our site.
(19:39):
We might be able to support for them invarious of the three letter agencies.
Right.
Absolutely.
Something to consider is, if you'renot sure what pieces to put together
here just consider where the most moneycomes from for and with the government.
And we know a lot of the fundingthat comes through for both
nonprofits and those who relyheavier on government contracts,
(20:00):
just that uncertainty going forward
but I think there's a benefit to havingsome backing from the government.
Through these support, through contracts.
It just allows you to advance and kindof know, okay, we can rely on this
money to come through and we can setthis aside for research and development
or try this new technology so it'sjust kind of changes things for you.
(20:20):
Yeah.
And though we have reallytwo businesses in that sense.
We really believe that ouradditive R 3D printing business
enables our rocket business.
Our first rocket was 3D printed.
We did a lot of R and D on that.
A lot of it is ending upon the current rocket.
So you can see how that's aVenn diagram but then also it's
a standalone business as well.
(20:41):
When you think about all thegovernment use cases, there might be.
So I think that's also the shift whenyou think about these founder led
companies that sometimes it startedas a science project but then you
start thinking about, gosh, if it'snice, we prove that a technology works
and is this viable in the market?
So that over the last few years hasbeen a huge focus, we need to make
(21:02):
this thing have product market fit.
Just like any business, just like anyof the three businesses I've been a
part of, or any clients I've served.
At the end of the day, we're hereto have a profitable business.
So we're not just thinking about makingone rocket and making sure it gets to
its first flight at the end of 2026.
We're thinking around the cornerabout scaling that to how many
launches we're gonna be able 10,20, 30 rockets per year and by the
(21:27):
way, we're making a reusable rocket.
So when you think about the economiesof scale there and the amount of
money and profit that will enable,that's what we're going for.
Oh, very exciting.
Now.
You shared a lot of usecases for government uses.
Would this be available to the generalpublic or available to businesses
and commercial manufacturingapplications in the future?
(21:49):
I think.
We take a lot of pride in the intellectualproperty, both from a patent and
trade secret side of the house and wehave an a fabulous industry leading
head of intellectual property and herteam work closely with the business
to make sure that we are developingthose competitive moats around the
different aspects of our technology.
Because though, yes, like right now we arelaser focused on building the rocket and
(22:13):
getting rocket to the launchpad is fastas humanly possible, we are thinking about
what other revenue streams are there?
Are we protected?
Are we ensuring our freedom to operatefrom an intellectual property perspective?
That's forefront in our minds and I thinkthat any legal professional and a lot of
people who like a lot of these engineersare quite familiar with those types of
(22:35):
principles and that's really embeddedin like who we are culturally in terms
of how we think about our engineeringprinciples and how we think about the
protection of our intellectual property.
Something to be mindful of as youkind of grow and scale and try
different things 'cause you don'twant to enable your competitors to
just replicate what you've been doing.
If they buy a 3D printer from one side andthen replicate what you're doing, it would
(22:57):
be very difficult to really do it right.
Yeah.
No, that's right.
We take the intellectual propertyof others extremely seriously.
Like that is a cultural thing that we'rereally proud of here and that goes for
former employers of our employees butalso as we work with a myriad of vendors.
We make sure that we set up theright protocols to make sure that
people understand where the linesare and how to conduct themselves.
(23:20):
So that is something that I think allbusinesses should be thinking about,
especially as they start to scale.
I think early stage companies often don'thave legal department, sometimes don't
have business people who are thinkingabout that aspect around the corner
but no quicker way to stop progressthan for people to flub that and to not
(23:41):
have the right protections in place,when co competition comes around or
when you're working with vendors andthat vendor's upset and all of a sudden
they think that you're using their ip.
Right.
Absolutely.
Kim, I wanted to ask where can peoplefind out more about you or get connected
with you or your company online?
Yeah, so I'm on LinkedInand I have a public profile.
Kim Nakamaru.
You look that up.
Relativity Space.
(24:01):
Relativity is a fabulous brandand communications department
and you can find us on Instagram.
You can find us on X, we're on LinkedIn,certainly and you can read more also
about this week on Monday when weannounced our CEO transition, we also
launched our 2025 product update.
We've been heads down, laser focused onbuilding the business for the last year
(24:23):
and we haven't been active as much showingthe progress of the rocket but this is
the first time in about a year where weput out, I think it's 45 minutes long and
you don't have to be a rocket scientistto really appreciate how cool and how much
progress has been made in just a year.
Very exciting.
I love that.
So excited to check that out andwe'll have all those links available
down in the show notes and thedescription for everyone to check out.
(24:45):
Kim, any last parting advice you wouldshare either with your younger self or
maybe other leaders or business owners,entrepreneurs out there who are either
just started or they're strugglingof spinning their wheels right now.
Is there any advice thatyou would give to them?
I would say if it feels scary,that's probably the right move.
Throughout my career even duringcollege, even before sports,
(25:06):
any business, anything school.
When something you feel slightlyover your skis or you think that
move is something a pale too far,it's probably the right move.
I think that's the way youstay hungry, you stay thirsty
and you're never sitting back.
'cause I believe in what Relativity isbuilding here in the culture of winning.
And I think that's been central towho I've been from the beginning.
(25:27):
And I think you don't winwithout taking considerable risk.
That's why I think being a founder andentrepreneur is such an incredible thing
to have just in your core, 'cause thatthat applies regardless of if you're
actually building a business or whetheryou're just conducting your daily life.
Absolutely.
I totally agree.
Some great advice here.
Definitely need to take action.
If it's scary, it's probably somethingthat's gonna move you outside of
(25:49):
your comfort zone, which means you'regrowing and expanding something that
we should always look forward to doing.
Kim, we appreciate yousharing your tips and tricks.
Everything that's going on with relativityand everything you have going on.
Very exciting.
So looking forward tothe progress as well.
Yeah.
Thanks so much.
Of course.
Thank you.
A huge priority to make sure that Iactually have a pulse or I have people
that are gonna have a pulse on what'sactually happening within your team,
because otherwise it's in one of theselagging indicators or people either
voting with their feet and leavingthe company or you, you have pockets
of disconnect or silos within yourorganizations that you should have got
(00:20):
rooted out probably six months ago.
You are listening to Brainwork Framework,a Business and Marketing podcast,
brought to you by Focused-biz.com.
With us today is Kim Nakamaru.
She's the general counsel but overseesmany functions of Relativity space.
Relativity Space is a rapidly scalingrocket company and leader in large scale
additive 3D, printing, manufacturing ona trajectory to become a commercial space
(00:42):
launch company and US government partnerfor critical R and D and innovation
featuring over 1200 plus employees.
Kim, so excited to have you on.
How are you doing today?
I'm doing great.
You nailed that company description.
Well, thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
So excited to have you on.
Tell us more about your backgroundand experience and how that kind
of brought you into what you'redoing today at Relativity Space.
(01:03):
Yeah, I'm a lawyer by trade andI'm still a lawyer, a happy one.
And I came to rocketryin a non-linear way.
I think any person and any executivewill say that they zigzagged through
and ever foresaw where they might haveended up but I've always had a passion
for whether that's building from anathletic perspective, building your
(01:25):
academic career or building businesses.
So when I came out of law school or evenwhen I was thinking about law school,
I wasn't thinking about this of wantingto be law and order on tv, though I
did do a stint with a federal judge,which was very much somewhat like that.
I really believe that every piece alongyour way builds to where you're getting.
(01:47):
And so starting with that particularjudge, he wasn't a typical litigator.
Who did trials.
He was actually a mergers and acquisitionslawyer and a general counsel by trade,
which I think he might have been theonly judge on the federal bench who
had a background quite like that and
he did things his own way so I wouldcredit judge, his name's Judge Spencer
(02:09):
Letz, but really kind of teachingme that things don't have to be
traditional, you don't have to go toX or Y school and then go down this
path in order to forge the career thatyou want and that suits your soul.
And so here, similar to him, Iwent into an M and A practice at
a large law firm right away butnotwithstanding it being a large law
(02:33):
firm, I aligned with a partner therewho enabled me to have a large remit.
So yes, we did mergers andacquisitions in large part in the
sports and entertainment space butalso the telecommunication space.
But because I have an entrepreneurialspirit, part of my pro bono practice,
meaning when you're providing freelegal services, one of the things I did
was provide outside general counsel toearly stage tech companies who didn't
(02:57):
have legal services and so that was myfirst taste in what a general counsel
might do, and working with founders andentrepreneurs who are gonna throw whatever
it is that they have in front of you.
So that's where I said, oh judgeLutz, I can see why that type
of role would be interesting.
So when the opportunity presented itself,four or five years into my tenure at the
law firm to go into a company, that'swhen I took my first step into a broad
(03:22):
base, director of corporate role at acompany called Global Legal Entertainment,
which public company here in LA tolearn all aspects of a global business.
And so then, almost five years andbecame the general counsel there.
Eventually served as generalcounsel for a couple of years.
That was an aviation and median contentbusiness and even though I went there
(03:44):
because it scratched the sports andentertainment itch, it had a huge
satellite connectivity business.
International aviation and maritimebusiness and some government work too.
Then the next role that came alongas recruited to a tech company called
Eagleby Technologies based in Seattle.
That company was a geospatial technologycompany where they put what do you call
(04:06):
these different high res cameras on smallaircraft and we own the aircraft business.
So started to be where some of my currentroot scope in includes safety and I
was on the aviation safety board there.
Suddenly I'm going to hangers and dealingwith mechanics and technicians and I
never saw that coming but then equallyhaving a highly innovative software
(04:27):
as a service aspect of that business.
Huge IP function that I gotto build there and just like a
really high performing legal team.
So from there, was recruited to my currentcompany, relativity Space is a startup.
It's my first startup.
So my trajectory was public companygeneral counsel with some aviation
(04:47):
adjacency to a private equity backedcompany, this eagle view technology
company to now a venture backed startup.
So three very different spaces.
I think what was perhaps attractive aboutmy candidacy to the current company was
that I've been in highly regulated spacesbefore I scaled teams help businesses
(05:08):
scale and Relativity is at a positionnow and we can get into exactly where we
right now but we're a late stage startup
who's on a trajectory to scale, bothin terms of employees and in terms
of business size and market value.
So we're right at thishockey stick moment.
That is a really exciting thing.
In addition, it's rockets,we actually build rockets.
(05:30):
Yeah.
One of the two coolest subjectsthat literally every child
chooses one or the other.
It's either dinosaurs or it's space.
So rockets are the coolest thing.
No, and I have three boys, they're allunder the age of seven, and it's much
easier to explain that mommy does buildsrockets as opposed to saying, mommy is
in a SaaS business or when you're onan airplane, you're looking at movies.
(05:51):
Mommy does that.
I mean, I guess that's kind of tangiblebut quite literally, we're in a million
square foot rocket factoring Long Beach,right next to the Long Beach Airport.
We have huge pieces of rockethardware on the floor now, which
is different than a year ago or ayear and a half ago and I joined.
I travel to our NASA Stennis,Mississippi site, which is where
we test our engines and big firetrenches, test dams that are multiple
(06:16):
stories, you're on the bayou there.
We'll be shipping our rocketor part of the rocket through
the Panama Canal to get there.
Then it'll get back on a ship fromthe Bayou there and get over to
our launch site in Cape Canaveral.
And at Cape Canaveral, we'rebuilding our pad from scratch.
You can't just use apad for any old rocket.
You fit the pad to the specsof what you are building.
(06:38):
So though we've successfully launcheda 3D printed rocket to space a couple
years ago where the new rocket we'rebuilding, which is called the Terran R.
Is it much larger rocket?
It's made specifically forthis low earth orbit satellite
telecommunication type of customer.
It's a beast.
So the launchpad similarly is a beastand my scope includes oversight of
(07:02):
the environmental health and safetyteam, which has responsibility for the
health and safety, a whole enterprisein addition to just some whip smart
environmental guys there who are makingsure that when we launch the rocket we
are not harming things in the water andhaving to run simulations basically force
things that have not been done before.
(07:23):
And having to prove to thegovernment why they should give us
a launch license for the directionsthat we wanna launch our rocket.
So it's a very engaging job.
Yeah.
A lot of regulations and pieces just toconsider, I mean, just first to be in
the type of work that you're doing and tocredit you for your entrepreneurial spirit
'cause it's so true that many ofus, we don't really know where
we're gonna end up but we'rewilling to take new opportunities
(07:45):
if a door's gonna open itself.
And we're willing tolearn and apply ourselves.
We can do these new jobs thatare similar yet very different
and grow our experience.
And I think you're a great exampleof that, just, Hey, can I take
these past skills and apply tosomething new and continue learning?
Yes, and I truly believe thatgreat leadership transcends
functions in companies.
(08:06):
I when I first joined the company,zero companies by and large,
these are actual rocket engineersand many of them have progressed
quickly into their leadership roles.
And I remember when I was hired justas the general counsel to do legal.
Within the first few weeks of mytenure came the opportunity to
take on a few other functions.
(08:26):
The other one was being employeerelations, which was formerly part of the
Human Resources Department and I remembervisiting the Sinis Mississippi site and
a couple of our famous rocket scientiststhere who are high VP pluses in the
company, asked like, what makes you thinkthat you as a lawyer could run these other
companies that are not in your scope?
(08:47):
And I said, look, you don't have tobe the subject matter expert to be an
excellent leader and I've seen that.
And you don't have to benecessarily the best of that
thing to be a great leader either.
It's like I've been the captain of thesports teams from the time I was small
until I was through the end of collegeand sure it was because I was a great
(09:08):
athlete in whatever sport that was.
But you gotta learn how to also lead whenthe chips are against you or when you
get kicked out of whatever boat I wasin in college and you still are having
to be the leader and being able to showteams what that looks like and how to
succeed and to find success differentlyand lead people of all different types.
(09:28):
And also putting the right peopleagainst the right problems, right?
I think that doesn't matter what functionyou are at, like your job as a leader
is to empower your teams to do greatwork and to help guide them to that
north star that you are getting towards.
And for us, it's getting toour first launch as quickly as
we can of this tear R Rocket.
Very cool.
And I think a lot of business ownersand leaders out there kind of struggle
(09:51):
with building the right team andmotivating them in the right way.
Sometimes they fall into the trap ofeither trying to micromanage too much or
they're just so hands off that they don'tknow what's happening in the day to day.
That's why I loved about a lotof the topics that you wanted
to cover is just leadership.
How do we become better leaders?
How does this kind of influence our team,our clients and our company as a whole?
What does it take to be this good leader?
(10:12):
You said it's great just to beable to lead but you don't have
to be a subject matter expert.
What are some of the qualities of leadersand what do you think people are doing
wrong right now in terms of leadership.
Yeah, I think good leadership startswith understanding that chess pieces you
have on the table and whether it is thatyou're coming in fresh to a new company.
As I've done a couple of times to a teamthat didn't know what to expect from
(10:33):
their new general counsel or whetheryou're building a team that might
be outside of your domain expertise.
You have to start fundamentally withunderstanding your leaders and their
teams because you shouldn't juststop at your direct reports, you
often get the real from the peoplewho are actually doing the work.
So I make it a quiet.
A huge priority to make sure thatI actually have a pulse or I have
(10:56):
people that are gonna have a pulseon what's actually happening within
your team because otherwise it's inone of these lagging indicators where
people either voting with their feetand leaving the company or you have
pockets of disconnect or silos withinyour organizations that you should have
got rooted out probably six months ago.
Right.
And those are difficult decisions to make.
(11:16):
It's like, did we hire the right person?
Should I cut it off now or waitto see if they grow and can we
mold them into something better?
It's a challenge.
Maybe it's not the rightfit for an employee.
How do leaders focus now in 2025?
I feel like the demand inthe labor market has shifted.
I feel like the labor workforce has a bitmore negotiating and bargaining powers.
Maybe they're looking for flexibleoptions or work from home options.
(11:41):
So it seems like leaders need to motivateand inspire them in different ways.
Are you seeing changes or shifts inthe way leaders are kind of inspiring
their team or even hiring and firing?
Yeah, I think so.
It's an interesting time.
I think back in the fall of this pastyear, everyone was kind of waiting to see
what was gonna happen with the election,and then we'll wait till the inauguration,
(12:02):
we'll wait till after year end.
And then we're gonna seewhat we're doing with hiring.
And I think it is strange right nowthe hiring market 'cause on one hand
we're seeing not that much hiring buton the other hand we're not sure why,
and it could be people who are inokay jobs or just kind of standing by
'cause there's a concern out there where,gosh, if I leave, so much instability
(12:25):
in the markets, both financial marketsbut then also I think the labor markets.
I don't know if people are willingto take that extra step out.
Go to somewhere where maybe thingseither won't be better or there'll be
a series of layoffs that are makingthe rounds around the industry.
I mean, obviously in the federalgovernment a lot of our customers are
(12:45):
government research and development.
So for us, we're having an interestingdynamic there and we have a lot
of interest because of that.
So I do think that employers,as far as what they're offering,
I think that's one topic.
But I think what you can do when you'reon the inside and this is more about
retention, is people at the end of theday, you gotta know what motivates people.
(13:07):
Like some people are indeedmotivated by the financial package
but a lot of people are motivated.
And I would say I'm one of these peoplethat wants to be on a winning team.
Not only a winning team, whateveryour functional team is but a winning
business and right now, relativity,just this week announced the change
of our CCEO to the CEO of Google.
(13:28):
Eric Schmidt, who talk about a winner.
I really look forward to what thatmeans for us as an executive team and
our founder Tim Ellis, is still gonnabe with the company as in his board
capacity and truth be told, he was ahuge reason I wanted to join this company
'cause I have a heart for founders.
I love seeing the twists andturns and of a business and
(13:50):
working with founders and CEOs.
Helping them guide through uncertaintyor how to best, if there's a
crack to go through, I'm gonnago find that crack for that guy.
So that's been a lot of thejourney with Tim and he is just an
inspirational human being who startedthe company on the back of a napkin.
(14:10):
Sounds stereotypical but it's trueand he thought that the humanity
dependent on being able to largescale 3D print and also enables life
in an interplanetary way potentially.
And so sounds like a boy's pipe dreamhas turned into reality and I'm excited
to see what Eric Schmidt brings tous from like an an operational rigor.
(14:33):
He's obviously quite well known forthe success he brought to Google.
He took over right wing, Google wastaking over from their founders.
So here you almost seehistory repeating itself.
Hopefully, 15 years later from his tenure.
2011 is when he left Googleand this is his first CEO role
(14:53):
since then.
So to say that we're thrilledby that is an understatement.
And what that means for our abilityto attract and retain the best and
the brightest and the smartest tocome to a place where we like really
think our culture's different too.
So to your point of what you're doingfor employees, we really think we could
win without having to be a psychotic,cutthroat place but make no mistake and we
(15:18):
are very hardcore, we have expectations.
You can't try to launch a rocketin a year and a half from now
by sitting on your laurels.
Definitely need some actions.
First, congratulationson acquiring the new CEO.
Hopefully he can bring in a lot ofthe technology and just advancements.
He brought Google in the early stageof the startup and the growth phase
that Google saw early on in thoseyears but something that you kind of
(15:41):
mentioned just right now is, a lotof businesses and people were waiting
till after the election and thenwaiting till after the inauguration.
Just that fear and uncertainty that'shappening both in the markets and business
and international trade space right now.
But leaders kind of need to remainstrong and steadfast during these times.
Should they be showing emotions?
How do they kind of manage the feelingswith reality versus the decision making
(16:04):
with all the uncertainty going on, howdo they kind of like stay on the path?
I think there's ways to support yourculture that you've built at your business
in a way that doesn't use catchphrasesthat people have an allergic reaction
to because for example, one of ourcore values at Relativity is humanity.
And I think thattranscends who's in office.
We support our employees whoever they areand however they show up every day and we
(16:26):
really believe that's a strength of ours.
So you don't have to use these catchphraseterms to describe that and we believe
our culture is indeed reflective ofour belief in everyone's humanity.
So I do agree though it isa hard time for businesses.
I think this is probably one of thetop topics for any executive team
(16:48):
is how do we deal with the executiveorders, what are we gonna say?
And especially for a business thatlike ours, where we have government
customers, this is a very volatilesubject within any business.
And certainly one where weclearly are going to comply
with the law and regulations.
And I think employees are smart enough tounderstand that two things could be true.
(17:10):
That on one hand youwill comply with the law.
You might not agree with it butwe're not going to formulate the law
but you can also equally supportyour employees and those the two
things don't have to be in conflict.
Yes.
I totally agree.
And one thing I wanted to ask 'causeas you were talking about 3D printing
rockets and shipping 'em across theocean, a lot of ideas came to mind.
(17:31):
So when I think of 3D printing, I'mthinking of that tabletop system, right?
And it's got little thread and it'smoving, is doing this for rockets at
a much bigger scale, is this a CapeCanaveral style, like 3D printer?
That's just humming around andbuilding or is it kind of built on
a smaller scale and piece together?
No.
Tim invented essentially the large scale3D printing that we became famous for.
(17:52):
And this is called Wire arcadditive manufacturing or wham.
So if you imagine, my son has thisthing called toy box, which is plastic.
And it makes the little toy, andthey're probably the size of your hand
at the biggest but this is like 18.
This thing takes up our ceilingslike a hundred feet high.
We can print things like 18 feet across.
(18:12):
So imagine it turns sideways.
So instead of something additivelycoming up, it's facing out.
So if you're thinking about thebarrel of a rocket, it comes out from
the build plate with metal wires.
And then there's theproprietary technology.
These arms come and fuse them together.
Oh, so cool.
Yes.
Yeah, that's really cool.
(18:33):
And there's another method called powderedfusion technology, which has been around
and we use a lot of that in our engines.
And that's more of a kind of a spray.
And you can imagine how coolthat is, especially if you come
from a manufacturing background.
My husband, one of the big primes and partof his scope was overseeing manufacturing
and if you're having an individuallook at every single one of these
(18:54):
parts and imagine if you just had one.
The amount of time that takes out ofthe integration and the tests of that
particular part is something thatwe really believe is going to be and
is a game changer in the industry.
Yeah, and it seems like it presentsjust a new set of challenges, like
you said, that quality controlpiece where it was each individual
piece now it's just there in one.
So it's like the challenges change.
(19:16):
They just shift and pivot a little bit butyou're just adapting to how the technology
changes and what what its needs will be.
Yeah and it doesn't take too muchof a stretch of imagination to
think about how the governmentmight use some of this technology.
I mean, that's some of the thingsI can't talk about expressly
but the government is itching.
Right.
To get to what with our businessdevelopment teams across our site.
(19:39):
We might be able to support for them invarious of the three letter agencies.
Right.
Absolutely.
Something to consider is, if you'renot sure what pieces to put together
here just consider where the most moneycomes from for and with the government.
And we know a lot of the fundingthat comes through for both
nonprofits and those who relyheavier on government contracts,
(20:00):
just that uncertainty going forward
but I think there's a benefit to havingsome backing from the government.
Through these support, through contracts.
It just allows you to advance and kindof know, okay, we can rely on this
money to come through and we can setthis aside for research and development
or try this new technology so it'sjust kind of changes things for you.
(20:20):
Yeah.
And though we have reallytwo businesses in that sense.
We really believe that ouradditive R 3D printing business
enables our rocket business.
Our first rocket was 3D printed.
We did a lot of R and D on that.
A lot of it is ending upon the current rocket.
So you can see how that's aVenn diagram but then also it's
a standalone business as well.
(20:41):
When you think about all thegovernment use cases, there might be.
So I think that's also the shift whenyou think about these founder led
companies that sometimes it startedas a science project but then you
start thinking about, gosh, if it'snice, we prove that a technology works
and is this viable in the market?
So that over the last few years hasbeen a huge focus, we need to make
(21:02):
this thing have product market fit.
Just like any business, just like anyof the three businesses I've been a
part of, or any clients I've served.
At the end of the day, we're hereto have a profitable business.
So we're not just thinking about makingone rocket and making sure it gets to
its first flight at the end of 2026.
We're thinking around the cornerabout scaling that to how many
launches we're gonna be able 10,20, 30 rockets per year and by the
(21:27):
way, we're making a reusable rocket.
So when you think about the economiesof scale there and the amount of
money and profit that will enable,that's what we're going for.
Oh, very exciting.
Now.
You shared a lot of usecases for government uses.
Would this be available to the generalpublic or available to businesses
and commercial manufacturingapplications in the future?
(21:49):
I think.
We take a lot of pride in the intellectualproperty, both from a patent and
trade secret side of the house and wehave an a fabulous industry leading
head of intellectual property and herteam work closely with the business
to make sure that we are developingthose competitive moats around the
different aspects of our technology.
Because though, yes, like right now we arelaser focused on building the rocket and
(22:13):
getting rocket to the launchpad is fastas humanly possible, we are thinking about
what other revenue streams are there?
Are we protected?
Are we ensuring our freedom to operatefrom an intellectual property perspective?
That's forefront in our minds and I thinkthat any legal professional and a lot of
people who like a lot of these engineersare quite familiar with those types of
(22:35):
principles and that's really embeddedin like who we are culturally in terms
of how we think about our engineeringprinciples and how we think about the
protection of our intellectual property.
Something to be mindful of as youkind of grow and scale and try
different things 'cause you don'twant to enable your competitors to
just replicate what you've been doing.
If they buy a 3D printer from one side andthen replicate what you're doing, it would
(22:57):
be very difficult to really do it right.
Yeah.
No, that's right.
We take the intellectual propertyof others extremely seriously.
Like that is a cultural thing that we'rereally proud of here and that goes for
former employers of our employees butalso as we work with a myriad of vendors.
We make sure that we set up theright protocols to make sure that
people understand where the linesare and how to conduct themselves.
(23:20):
So that is something that I think allbusinesses should be thinking about,
especially as they start to scale.
I think early stage companies often don'thave legal department, sometimes don't
have business people who are thinkingabout that aspect around the corner
but no quicker way to stop progressthan for people to flub that and to not
(23:41):
have the right protections in place,when co competition comes around or
when you're working with vendors andthat vendor's upset and all of a sudden
they think that you're using their ip.
Right.
Absolutely.
Kim, I wanted to ask where can peoplefind out more about you or get connected
with you or your company online?
Yeah, so I'm on LinkedInand I have a public profile.
Kim Nakamaru.
You look that up.
Relativity Space.
(24:01):
Relativity is a fabulous brandand communications department
and you can find us on Instagram.
You can find us on X, we're on LinkedIn,certainly and you can read more also
about this week on Monday when weannounced our CEO transition, we also
launched our 2025 product update.
We've been heads down, laser focused onbuilding the business for the last year
(24:23):
and we haven't been active as much showingthe progress of the rocket but this is
the first time in about a year where weput out, I think it's 45 minutes long and
you don't have to be a rocket scientistto really appreciate how cool and how much
progress has been made in just a year.
Very exciting.
I love that.
So excited to check that out andwe'll have all those links available
down in the show notes and thedescription for everyone to check out.
(24:45):
Kim, any last parting advice you wouldshare either with your younger self or
maybe other leaders or business owners,entrepreneurs out there who are either
just started or they're strugglingof spinning their wheels right now.
Is there any advice thatyou would give to them?
I would say if it feels scary,that's probably the right move.
Throughout my career even duringcollege, even before sports,
(25:06):
any business, anything school.
When something you feel slightlyover your skis or you think that
move is something a pale too far,it's probably the right move.
I think that's the way youstay hungry, you stay thirsty
and you're never sitting back.
'cause I believe in what Relativity isbuilding here in the culture of winning.
And I think that's been central towho I've been from the beginning.
(25:27):
And I think you don't winwithout taking considerable risk.
That's why I think being a founder andentrepreneur is such an incredible thing
to have just in your core, 'cause thatthat applies regardless of if you're
actually building a business or whetheryou're just conducting your daily life.
Absolutely.
I totally agree.
Some great advice here.
Definitely need to take action.
If it's scary, it's probably somethingthat's gonna move you outside of
(25:49):
your comfort zone, which means you'regrowing and expanding something that
we should always look forward to doing.
Kim, we appreciate yousharing your tips and tricks.
Everything that's going on with relativityand everything you have going on.
Very exciting.
So looking forward tothe progress as well.
Yeah.
Thanks so much.
Of course.
Thank you.
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