October 6, 2025 • 35 mins
Why do the most capable people doubt themselves — while the catastrophically overconfident never do?
In Part One of our Imposter Syndrome special, Rakhee and Heather unpack the strange psychology behind self-doubt and the Dunning–Kruger effect — a bias so strong it can convince someone they’re ready to run the country (looking at you, Liz Truss 👀).
Imposter syndrome affects around 70% of people at some point in their lives — and yes, it’s a problem for men too.
🎧 Part Two coming next week features Clare Radford, Occupational Psychologist, and Pip Tomson, award-winning radio and TV presenter, sharing their experiences and insights on imposter syndrome.
Harvard Business Review source material: https://hbr.org/2021/02/stop-telling-women-they-have-imposter-syndrome
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:32):
today we're diving into a topic that manages to be painfully relatable to so many people,but not the right people.
Imposter syndrome.
So over the past couple of weeks, I think we've both done a lot of research on this topic.
I don't know about you, but I've watched at least 10 TED Talks.
I know you've watched some of them as well.
(00:53):
There was a BBC series called Impostor Syndrome with Bradley Wiggins and Craig David.
And I'm currently working my way through the secret thoughts of successful women and menby Valerie Young, who...
you talk about a bit later in this episode as well.
So I'm excited to hear what we've both uncovered on this one.
Yeah, I've been going and following all the links you've been sending me and watchingthose talks and it is really interesting to hear from people that are actually really good
(01:21):
speakers on a TED stage and then they've experienced uh crippling imposter syndrome.
So I found an article about it on Very Well Mind and what they have put together is a setof questions basically.
that help you to discover whether you need to label yourself with imposter syndrome.
(01:42):
maybe some of my emphasis tells you what I think about this syndrome.
But in any case, why don't we take a look at what the questions are?
for the listeners, if you want to consider whether you're suffering under this syndrome.
So the questions are
Do you agonize over even the smallest mistakes or flaws in your work?
(02:05):
Do you attribute your success to luck or outside factors?
Are you sensitive to even constructive criticism?
Do you feel that you'll inevitably be found out as a phony?
And the last one, do you downplay your own expertise even in areas where you're genuinelymore skilled than others?
(02:27):
em
Okay.
I'd be interested to know how many people, when they hear those questions, thinkresounding yes, crippling yes, yes in a way that holds me back and stops me doing things,
because that's kind of what we're looking at today.
Mm-hmm.
and then another thing that I found, there's a researcher called Dr.
(02:50):
Valerie Young.
And again, this might be relatable to people.
She identified five, like different archetypes, basically, of imposters.
So they are as follows.
Um, you've got the perfectionist.
So for the perfectionist, if it's not flawless, then boom, it's a complete failure.
you've got the expert who's afraid to ask for help.
(03:13):
So basically the expert.
If you don't know everything, then it means you know nothing and you're not entitled towhat you know.
You've also got the natural genius.
So for the natural genius, if it doesn't come easy to you, then you're not good enough.
It's the type of person that does something and it's not perfect and they quit after thefirst go.
um You've also got the soloist.
(03:35):
So if you ask for help, then that means that you cheated and you had help getting there,so it doesn't count.
And then finally,
Um, we've got the super person, which for them, if you're not doing everything, then youmight as well be doing nothing.
Yeah, I think these five types of imposters are actually more helpful in, I'll sayself-diagnosis, it's not really the right term, than the questions even, because I think I
(04:09):
have identified with every single one of these at one point, but not as much now.
As I've become older, I've had lots of coaching, I've had lots of therapy, I've read amillion self-development books and podcasts.
I'm in a much more confident and comfortable place.
And it doesn't mean I don't second guess myself occasionally.
(04:31):
It doesn't mean I don't get nerves or doubts, but I'm certainly not trying to be aperfectionist anymore or an expert on anything.
And it's liberating to say, I don't know.
I don't know this thing.
And why don't you explain it to me, which is not something I would have done maybe 10 or15 years ago.
(04:51):
I don't know, what about you?
Well, I feel similar and I do think it takes a lot of wisdom and inner strength, but alsoI'm confident in my experience.
I feel like I have the evidence.
I have a long career that has been an accomplished career and some accolades if you likethat I can look back if I am feeling a natural self-doubt that might spiral into something
(05:18):
without calling myself having a syndrome.
something that might cause me to hold back or pull back from something, I've kind oftaught myself that mechanism of going, look at the evidence, like go through, it's therapy
again, isn't it?
Treat it like a court case.
Heather isn't good enough.
(05:39):
Okay, what's the counter argument?
Let's cross examine that.
And the counter argument in the cross examination shows that actually there's, technicallythere's evidence.
Even if I'm not sort feeling it in my guts and I've got that self-doubt day, the evidenceis there.
And I think it helps if you're bit older to be able to go, yeah, I got that promotion one,so I won that award, or best of all, my team said I was a good manager.
(06:03):
I mean, that's the best one, isn't it, really?
So yeah.
Well, you phoned me before and said, with one of your voice notes, where I can tell you'rewalking the dogs and...
When I'm down and going, Heather, look at the evidence.
And you were one of the people that gave me that really quick, low-hanging tactic to go,just look at the evidence.
(06:27):
Stop listening to your gut that's telling you no.
Go back over the facts.
Yeah, you did, you did, you did.
I know, it's good, isn't it?
It's good.
tell me what you've uncovered in terms of where imposter syndrome has originated from,especially this term that we use for it.
Yeah, because you know I get annoyed because I feel like I'm going to come to it, but Ifeel like imposter syndrome puts it on me and I don't want it.
(06:54):
So I wanted to find out who started this, right?
And so apparently this term first showed up as the imposter phenomenon and it was broughtinto parlance in 1978.
So I was only one.
Give me a chance.
ah by these psychologists, Pauline Rose Klantz and Suzanne Imes, I guess you say her name.
(07:16):
uh And they were, what they were actually studying was the phenomenon of high achievingwomen who were then plagued by self doubt.
Cause it was, it was a thing that was worth studying.
If you fast forward to today, it's become this cultural catchphrase.
ah But here's the thing, it was a phenomenon.
(07:37):
It was never meant to imply that it was some kind of clinical diagnosis, and still we'rethrowing around this word syndrome, like we all have got together and contrived to catch
the fraud flu.
you know, I do, it always sort of bugged me.
It bugged me because I thought, well, here we are, we're women, we made it to theboardroom, and we have self-doubt, and we've got enough things against us, and then
(08:01):
they're giving us a syndrome to carry as well.
This is nonsense.
um
and it bugged me for like years and then finally I came across on LinkedIn this HarvardBusiness Review, God bless Harvard Business Review with the deep dives, right?
I went, aha, they've articulated it for me, so bear with me, Rocky, while I read a longishquote, but there's just no fat in what they write, so you have to sit with it.
(08:26):
um So what they said was, imposter brings a tinge of
criminal fraudulence to the feeling of simply being unsure, anxious about joining a newteam or learning a new skill, and then add to that the medical undertone of syndrome,
which recalls the female hysteria diagnoses of the 19th century.
(08:50):
Although feelings of uncertainty are expected and they're a normal part of professionallife, women who experience them are deemed to suffer from imposter syndrome.
Even if women demonstrate strength, ambition, and resilience, our daily battles withmicroaggressions, especially expectations and assumptions that have been formed by
(09:12):
stereotypes and racism, are often pushing us down for real.
Imposter syndrome as a concept fails to capture this dynamic and it puts the onus on womento deal with the effects.
Workplaces remain misdirected.
towards seeking individual solutions for issues disproportionately caused by systems ofdiscrimination and abuses of power.
(09:37):
I know it's kind of long and it's kind of academic, but I've always wanted to challengethe idea of imposter syndrome really hard.
Nobody ever said this was a diagnosable psychological disorder, not even the originalresearchers.
So calling it syndrome,
makes it sound like a diagnosis and it makes you think of that Victorian woman who'shysterical.
(10:02):
That's amazing.
I love it.
I love that quote.
One of the things I've discovered doing research for this episode is I went into theresearch thinking it was uniquely almost a problem for women.
But I've come to realize that it is not.
(10:25):
It's not.
Probably as many men say that they have suffered with imposter syndrome as women.
So we don't want any male listeners to think that we're not thinking about you because itjust so happens that this research is specifically on women.
And maybe it's the fact that women talk about this stuff more, which is why it feels likemore of a...
(10:48):
an issue that women struggle with.
So that was one new learning for me.
So shall we talk about Heather some of the ways in which imposter syndrome manifestsitself?
Yeah, I mean, I don't like the word syndrome and I don't like the word symptoms either,but the cat's out of the bag and it's already being spoken about that way.
(11:18):
So if we look at the ways in which it shows up basically, like you said, the way itmanifests itself, it is stuff like self-doubt, which we all hopefully get if we're humble
people.
Feeling like you fooled people in order to get where you are, like if you experience anykind of success or seniority or you win a prize, feeling like you somehow hoodwinked
(11:39):
everybody to get that.
uh And also stuff like overachieving and perfectionism, like we talked about earlier withthe different, like sort of five different archetypes of imposters.
uh When I look at that stuff, again, it's just me challenging this whole imposter syndromeidea, but.
I feel like every single one of those can have other explanations like systemicoppression.
(12:04):
And that leads to workplaces and scenarios where actually you're in the minority andactually other people do hold the power in influence and it's not you.
And sometimes then the knock on effect with that is that you have to appear grateful to beallowed to have a seat at the table.
And I think a lot of people that I can think of have experienced that.
(12:28):
Is that imposter syndrome or is that systemic oppression rearing its head inside of you?
um You kind of know that you need to be perfect and you need to overachieve to compensatefor being from a minority group.
And then finally, this is a bit of a wild card, but I don't want to forget about this too.
People have had family experiences and childhood experiences where you come home withseven A's and an A minus and the only thing that an elder in your family says is,
(12:56):
What about this A minus?
So, you know, there's all sorts of reasons, I think, that can make people develop a habitof feeling a certain way, that it doesn't mean that it's a deficiency in them that needs
healing or needs a mentor, but it's actually, you know, you're in a system that's causingyou to feel a certain type of way.
(13:16):
And so all of that kind of leads me up to my argument where I say,
Let's ditch this imposter syndrome thing because it's not a me problem, it's a youproblem.
But as my final point, I'm basically gonna undermine my own self because I think Lisa OrbeBoston, who's a researcher specifically into imposter syndrome, takes a look at systemic
(13:38):
oppression.
And I still think I'm right about everything I've just said, but I feel like her pointturns it all on its head.
She says, okay, fine, imagine if imposter syndrome is a you problem and not a me problem.
Fine, shall we instead trust our society to eradicate racism, xenophobia, sexism,homophobia, and any other oppression of systems that are basically making people feel this
(14:04):
way before we deal with the experience of imposter syndrome?
And after all my big arguments, which I think still have some validity to them, when Iread that I think, you know what, you're right, Dr.
Lisa is saying it doesn't matter
how it happened, but if people are feeling that self-doubt or feeling that sense thatthey're an imposter when they've achieved, if we're gonna wait until society is fixed,
(14:31):
then we're gonna be dead.
So wouldn't it be better to focus, right?
I'm working on it and we had a brawl in Alabama and we are working on it, right?
But it's not gonna end anytime soon.
So em maybe it is actually more...
effective to look at that experience that people are having and then work out how we allget over it.
(14:58):
The, uh what about the A minus is an actual Asian parenting manual.
When you were born, somebody like came and gave your parents a bunch.
which part of Asia you're from because I have this with my Chinese friends with myJapanese friends you bring home seven As and an A- and the Asian parent is focusing on the
(15:23):
A- true story.
Okay so I wanted to flip the conversation a bit we've done a lot of we've talked a lotabout people who have imposter syndrome or have discussed their imposter syndrome actually
one of the points I should just make when you say
It's not a me problem, it's a you problem.
I think it's an everyone problem.
(15:44):
70 % of people are saying that they have this imposter syndrome at times.
So I think it's an everyone problem.
And I think there's ways that we can all work together if we're more open about it inworkplaces.
So anyway, that was my final point on that.
the openness is interesting because when you told me the statistics that you found aboutmen who suffer from it, I think, well, that's news to me.
(16:11):
They should be louder about it then.
Because as a woman, I feel like we're in it alone.
But if I'm incorrect and we're not, please, men, speak up so that we all feel a bit morenormal.
Thank you.
Well, watch this BBC mini series, which is a nice balance of men and women talking abouttheir imposter syndrome.
So that's helped bust a few myths for me.
(16:34):
I wanted to talk also about this term, the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is something I'veheard for years, but I finally looked it up thanks to you.
And I think it's a really, really important element of what we're discussing.
So if you have imposter syndrome at one end of the spectrum,
which could be crippling self-doubt despite having the competence and the ability, then Ithink the Dunning-Kruger effect might be at the other end of the spectrum, which is this
(17:05):
unshakable confidence despite very little actual ability.
This is an actual thing.
I looked up the term and it comes from a 1999 study by two psychologists, David Dunningand Justin Kruger from Cornell.
university and they wrote a paper which with the most brilliant exquisite title calledunskilled and unaware of it.
(17:32):
Isn't that brilliant?
I like their paper already.
They're saying, let's just cut through the BS and call it what it is.
Unskilled and unaware of it.
So, the Dunning-Kruger effect is basically this.
People with low skill levels in a given area who tend to wildly overestimate theirabilities.
(17:53):
And this is generally because they lack the insight
to know what good performance actually looks like.
On the other hand, you've got people that we've just been discussing who areunderestimating themselves, assuming that what comes easy to them must be easy for
everybody.
Now, there is actually a hilarious story that triggered Dunning and Kruger to look intothis, let's call it a phenomenon effect.
(18:20):
and it was inspired by a real case of a chap called MacArthur Wheeler, such an Americanname, who tried to rob, I know, can you think of a more American name than MacArthur
Wheeler?
Who, I know, who robbed two banks in Pittsburgh with his face smeared in lemon juice, andthis is because he had read somewhere or heard somewhere that lemon juice is used as
(18:45):
invisible ink, and he genuinely believed that this would make
him invisible to security cameras.
So obviously he was caught.
That's the punchline of that story.
But Dunning and Kruger, hey, doofus, exactly.
But Dunning and Kruger read about this and thought, we should probably study this level ofdelusion.
(19:08):
And there you have it, the Dunning-Kruger effect, which has now used a lot more in commonvernacular and parlance to describe some of the people we're going to talk about in a
minute.
I mean, it's staggering, isn't it?
It's so stupid, it's kind of cute, but anyway.
(19:28):
uh
example is kind of stupid and cute but I think when we talk about some of the people thatwe're going to get on to...
yeah not so cute.
For Dunning-Kruger, the stats are really something.
(19:48):
We've got 81 % of entrepreneurs that will confidently bet that their startup has a 70 %chance of success.
And I bet you can already guess the overconfidence there.
Actually, 75 % of businesses are going to fail within the first five years.
But hey, optimism's free, right?
(20:09):
I mean, I just, wish I had that level of confidence.
Do you think you'd ever be able to start a business if you weren't overconfident though?
Ooh, good question.
mean, I have sort of started a business, but only with other people's hands in my back andgoing, would you like to work on this little project and that little project?
(20:33):
And it was ever so reluctantly taking projects until I turned around and I thought, maybeI need a logo.
So that's how it happened for me.
It definitely wasn't me charging out and going, woohoo!
But I don't know how many-
people have an accident like that, I think your point remains valid without any researchto back it up.
You've got to believe in your own genius to start something.
(20:56):
The Dunning-Kruger, what they're finding in the paper is, in their paper, the less youknow, the more confident you feel, because you're ignorant of your own incompetence.
And the more complex the task, this is a scary thing for all of us, if it's reallycomplex, like running a country or launching an app that nobody asks you to make, the
(21:17):
confidence goes up.
And there is actually a name for this as well, and guess what?
They get to have a syndrome too, and it's called Founder Syndrome.
And that's a syndrome when someone gets so attached to the company that they built thatthey can't take feedback.
They refuse to step aside.
And quite often you see people like that.
(21:37):
It's they themselves that drives the whole thing into the ground.
And they do the whole thing with a big confident smile on their face.
Meanwhile, confident people can't muster it up.
It's not just famous examples.
I've worked with a number of companies where the founders had a great idea and was theright person to get it to a point.
But after that, what you need are competent leaders, managers, people who will driveforward the growth of the business.
(22:06):
And the founder needs to take a step back, which I'm sure is very difficult to do.
Only the most self-aware people will.
know when to step back and let somebody else come in and take over.
So yeah, I'm au fait with this.
I think that's what leaves us where we are in this funny little spot where you've gotthese brilliant, capable, successful people who are plagued by imposter syndrome.
(22:30):
And you've got these spectacular failures who are sitting there genuinely thinking thatthey're crushing it.
So it's not always about not having the ability, right?
Sometimes it's the surplus of delusion.
that spurs people on to keep going when they should have taken a step back.
Absolutely.
So I like this segue into delusion.
(22:57):
There are a lot of delusional people out there, but I very cheekily, and this is verycheeky because, you know, we like to be a bit irreverent every once in a while.
I asked chat GPT last night whether any public figure from Eton School, who's left EtonSchool, ever discussed imposter syndrome.
(23:18):
So there are many, many public figures that we know, former prime ministers amongst them,many former prime ministers amongst them.
And Chat GPT said, and I quote verbatim, obviously this is just an AI tool, it might notbe fact, but it scans public information.
(23:39):
Chat GPT said, no prominent Eton alumnus has famously given a major speech or interviewspecifically
on imposter syndrome by name.
And you know what?
I had a little chuckle to myself because I wasn't surprised.
(24:00):
I mean, I can think of one major clown that's held public office recently that needs to betalking a little bit about imposter syndrome.
But there are plenty.
I mean, really, it's something about Eton, isn't it?
They just teach them that, you know, you're precious little boys and you'll all have aturn at being prime minister and you're fantastic and if anybody disagrees with you, then
(24:23):
they're wrong.
I could have done with a bit of that training, really.
You know?
I think we all could have done with a bit of that.
There was a really great bit in Sathnam Sanghera's book, Empireland, which I thoroughlyrecommend.
despite the criticism it's got, it is not the woke Bible against colonialism that youwould think.
(24:48):
It's actually quite balanced.
But there is a chapter on Eton School and these young men.
are educated and raised.
Well, originally, the point was that they would be the guardians of the colonies.
That they would, you know, so they were special, they were the chosen ones.
(25:09):
And yes, we have had several prime ministers who've gone to Eton schools.
So what that must do to your mindset.
I mean, you know, I went to a very ordinary school, I'm assuming you went to a veryordinary school back in the US.
We were not.
educated in that way, we were not raised in our families even in that way.
(25:31):
yeah.
Most of us in my school, people were expected to probably go into the military or just gostraight to work.
like uh interesting for, I don't, maybe half of us went to university in my graduatingclass or something.
But yeah, I do think that that childhood training has a lot to do with it.
um And I feel like also, weren't they also, didn't you also tell me that the Etonians havebeen trained to kind of not question things too much or think for themselves too much
(26:00):
because that was part of the prep?
for looking after the colonies was like, you've got a king, your king's gonna tell youwhat to do and you're just gonna be this upper echelon person who doesn't question
anything.
And so I think that's another additive factor.
If you've been told you're entitled and you've been taught never to question anything,then you're never gonna question your own entitlement.
(26:20):
No, good point.
Good point, but it does explain a lot, doesn't it?
It does explain...
explain Liz Truss but it explains a hell of a lot.
Well, Liz Truss, when we've had these conversations, is the person that pops up the mostin my head for the Dunning-Kruger effect because she had such a catastrophic premiership
(26:43):
and that is by any objective standard.
And I did want to be objective about this, so I did look up a few stats in terms of thestate of the economy when she left.
The pound plunged to a historic low of $1.03, which is the worst ever, but also the worstI can ever remember.
(27:06):
I mean, you're American.
Have you ever known the sterling to be nearly a dollar for dollar?
No.
I think that's about as low as it goes, yeah.
The 10-year guilt yields, and we all know what they are now because we were obsessed withguilts when she was Prime Minister for 44 days, soared from 3.2 % to 4.5 % within days,
(27:28):
which is nearly a 1 % point jump that triggered a Moron Premium actual name in borrowingcosts and Moron Premium.
god, what the heck is a moron premium?
And more on premium is exactly how it sounds, which is because of policy missteps or crapfiscal policy, basically.
(27:52):
You have a premium now.
I've not been a fan of all these invented terms, but I feel like that's one that I can getbehind.
I think we can, I can certainly get behind moron premium.
So other things that she completely messed up in her 44 days, the resolution foundationestimates her agenda opened a 30 billion pound fiscal hole, comprising 20 billion pounds
(28:17):
in unfunded tax cuts and another 10 billion in heightened borrowing costs and.
We're currently being told there's like a 40 billion pound black hole.
Guess where it came from people.
Homeowners suffered a lot.
So house prices fell by 5%.
Wiping out roughly £336 billion in property value, which some people will say might bewell needed to recalibrate the property market.
(28:48):
But anyway, for the purposes of this conversation, we're just trying to show the disaster.
you know, national wealth, yeah.
Absolutely.
Whereas the typical mortgage payments surged and caused so much pain and they surged onaverage by about £220 a month.
so much for people.
It's really personal, isn't it?
(29:12):
By the end of 2024, about 4 million homeowners faced an additional £5,100 in mortgagecosts.
No one has that.
Ouch.
So anyway, there you go.
The spectacular...
(29:32):
She was a disaster.
The spectacular overconfidence going into that fiscal event.
Absolutely not a trace of imposter syndrome as she burnt the house down and everybody elsepaid the price.
And this is the real like punch in the throat to everybody.
Is that she then went on to write and publish...
(29:55):
A book called 10 years to save the West.
What?
after after destroying an economy she then has the confidence to go write and publish abook called 10 years to save the west i didn't look up how many copies it sold i'm
assuming it didn't do that well but the audacity
(30:15):
It's a lot.
And she's an example of such breathtaking incompetence.
I feel like Dunning-Kruger can be the only explanation because it's just, there's all thisevidence around you that it's not going well.
And all she could do is just take a bunch of selfies and put it up on her social media.
It's just madness, do you remember?
(30:38):
And the lettuce was the only thing that kept me going, the lettuce.
The lettuce.
The lettuce knew that it could outlast the prime minister.
I feel like the lettuce neither had imposter syndrome nor Dunning-Kruger.
The lettuce just had a realistic assessment of its own ability to outlast the primeminister.
(30:59):
to
to that.
need more people with neither of the two, just a realistic explanation, sorry, realisticassessment of their own abilities.
Because there's other people that have imposter syndrome that you would not believe.
Of course, I also didn't know this off the top of my head, and I did look it up.
But my...
freaking Angelou of all people said that she had these nagging self doubts, right?
(31:25):
I couldn't imagine having such a wonderful voice as her, but she'd say, I've written 11books and every time I write one I think, uh oh, like as if she's gonna be found out,
right?
And Albert freaking Einstein called himself an involuntary swindler.
I mean, are you kidding me?
(31:45):
So, so right, let me get this straight.
Maya Angelou has imposter syndrome, but Boris Johnson doesn't.
Einstein himself has snagging self-doubt that he thinks he's swindled humanity, but ElonMusk is totally fine jumping around, showing us his belly button.
The hell.
(32:06):
I just wanted to jump in on the Elon Musk thing because I think he has achieved so much interms of the amount of wealth he's accumulated that that would banish any imposter
syndrome that you might have.
So I just wanted to push back on that point.
I'm not surprised he doesn't.
(32:28):
dad gave it to, has dad got it from apartheid and gave it to him?
It doesn't matter if his dad gave it to him.
The fact that even with his great privilege start in life, he's become the richest man inthe world.
You would get this sense of, you know, like a Messiah complex that you can do anything,that you are a genius, that everyone keeps telling you.
(32:51):
And also there's a lot of kind of fanboys and girls out there for Elon Musk who keepreinforcing this.
So I think with those really big
famous personalities I can kind of see there's just no crack fate imposter syndrome toever set in.
Yeah, okay Noah, I can change my position on that.
I think maybe you're right, Elon Musk probably doesn't deserve to have imposter syndrome.
(33:15):
He's just an eye hole.
How about that?
Well, he does deserve it now because he's absolutely tanked Tesla and he's absolutelytanked X and his spaceships are blowing up and it's just at what point will he sit down
and go, hmm, I'm not as good at this as I thought I was.
(33:40):
I was watching a couple of interviews with both Obamas at different times and this reallyresonated with me.
Michelle Obama, and I'll read the quote so I don't get it wrong.
Michelle Obama said on her Becoming Book Tour, another book that's worth a read if anyoneneeds recommendations.
It's a great book.
I have been at probably every powerful table that you can think of...
(34:05):
they are not that smart.
my god, I knew it.
And I have walked into many companies and organizations in the past where I thought, God,I'm not going to be as smart as everybody else or I didn't go to as good a university as
(34:26):
them.
I won't be able to cope or thrive in this environment.
Like I've got to do more than everyone else to succeed.
And it's really true.
most rooms you walk into, you're fine.
You're good.
You don't need to worry about it.
Just have confidence in your little area of knowledge and you're good to go.
(34:52):
Sorry, go ahead.
shall I leave everybody with an Obama quote?
Because he's always quite inspiring to us and I think this is a really, really good thingto carry around with you if you do feel like an imposter.
So Barack Obama said, here's the secret, even the people who look like they've got it allfigured out, they don't.
I've been in the rooms with world leaders, business leaders, and it's not all that.
(35:17):
A lot of them are just winging it.
Render Your Own Mute is hosted by Rakhi Verma and Heather Deland and produced by TigrisConsulting and Mediation.
Editing is done by Rakhi, so if it's crap, it's because she's Indian and would rather diethan outsource something that technically could be done for free.
(35:39):
Theme music is by The Mountain on Pixabay.
Please follow, rate and review because laughter is cheaper than therapy and much moreeffective than HR.
See you next time.
today we're diving into a topic that manages to be painfully relatable to so many people,but not the right people.
Imposter syndrome.
So over the past couple of weeks, I think we've both done a lot of research on this topic.
I don't know about you, but I've watched at least 10 TED Talks.
I know you've watched some of them as well.
(00:53):
There was a BBC series called Impostor Syndrome with Bradley Wiggins and Craig David.
And I'm currently working my way through the secret thoughts of successful women and menby Valerie Young, who...
you talk about a bit later in this episode as well.
So I'm excited to hear what we've both uncovered on this one.
Yeah, I've been going and following all the links you've been sending me and watchingthose talks and it is really interesting to hear from people that are actually really good
(01:21):
speakers on a TED stage and then they've experienced uh crippling imposter syndrome.
So I found an article about it on Very Well Mind and what they have put together is a setof questions basically.
that help you to discover whether you need to label yourself with imposter syndrome.
(01:42):
maybe some of my emphasis tells you what I think about this syndrome.
But in any case, why don't we take a look at what the questions are?
for the listeners, if you want to consider whether you're suffering under this syndrome.
So the questions are
Do you agonize over even the smallest mistakes or flaws in your work?
(02:05):
Do you attribute your success to luck or outside factors?
Are you sensitive to even constructive criticism?
Do you feel that you'll inevitably be found out as a phony?
And the last one, do you downplay your own expertise even in areas where you're genuinelymore skilled than others?
(02:27):
em
Okay.
I'd be interested to know how many people, when they hear those questions, thinkresounding yes, crippling yes, yes in a way that holds me back and stops me doing things,
because that's kind of what we're looking at today.
Mm-hmm.
and then another thing that I found, there's a researcher called Dr.
(02:50):
Valerie Young.
And again, this might be relatable to people.
She identified five, like different archetypes, basically, of imposters.
So they are as follows.
Um, you've got the perfectionist.
So for the perfectionist, if it's not flawless, then boom, it's a complete failure.
you've got the expert who's afraid to ask for help.
(03:13):
So basically the expert.
If you don't know everything, then it means you know nothing and you're not entitled towhat you know.
You've also got the natural genius.
So for the natural genius, if it doesn't come easy to you, then you're not good enough.
It's the type of person that does something and it's not perfect and they quit after thefirst go.
um You've also got the soloist.
(03:35):
So if you ask for help, then that means that you cheated and you had help getting there,so it doesn't count.
And then finally,
Um, we've got the super person, which for them, if you're not doing everything, then youmight as well be doing nothing.
Yeah, I think these five types of imposters are actually more helpful in, I'll sayself-diagnosis, it's not really the right term, than the questions even, because I think I
(04:09):
have identified with every single one of these at one point, but not as much now.
As I've become older, I've had lots of coaching, I've had lots of therapy, I've read amillion self-development books and podcasts.
I'm in a much more confident and comfortable place.
And it doesn't mean I don't second guess myself occasionally.
(04:31):
It doesn't mean I don't get nerves or doubts, but I'm certainly not trying to be aperfectionist anymore or an expert on anything.
And it's liberating to say, I don't know.
I don't know this thing.
And why don't you explain it to me, which is not something I would have done maybe 10 or15 years ago.
(04:51):
I don't know, what about you?
Well, I feel similar and I do think it takes a lot of wisdom and inner strength, but alsoI'm confident in my experience.
I feel like I have the evidence.
I have a long career that has been an accomplished career and some accolades if you likethat I can look back if I am feeling a natural self-doubt that might spiral into something
(05:18):
without calling myself having a syndrome.
something that might cause me to hold back or pull back from something, I've kind oftaught myself that mechanism of going, look at the evidence, like go through, it's therapy
again, isn't it?
Treat it like a court case.
Heather isn't good enough.
(05:39):
Okay, what's the counter argument?
Let's cross examine that.
And the counter argument in the cross examination shows that actually there's, technicallythere's evidence.
Even if I'm not sort feeling it in my guts and I've got that self-doubt day, the evidenceis there.
And I think it helps if you're bit older to be able to go, yeah, I got that promotion one,so I won that award, or best of all, my team said I was a good manager.
(06:03):
I mean, that's the best one, isn't it, really?
So yeah.
Well, you phoned me before and said, with one of your voice notes, where I can tell you'rewalking the dogs and...
When I'm down and going, Heather, look at the evidence.
And you were one of the people that gave me that really quick, low-hanging tactic to go,just look at the evidence.
(06:27):
Stop listening to your gut that's telling you no.
Go back over the facts.
Yeah, you did, you did, you did.
I know, it's good, isn't it?
It's good.
tell me what you've uncovered in terms of where imposter syndrome has originated from,especially this term that we use for it.
Yeah, because you know I get annoyed because I feel like I'm going to come to it, but Ifeel like imposter syndrome puts it on me and I don't want it.
(06:54):
So I wanted to find out who started this, right?
And so apparently this term first showed up as the imposter phenomenon and it was broughtinto parlance in 1978.
So I was only one.
Give me a chance.
ah by these psychologists, Pauline Rose Klantz and Suzanne Imes, I guess you say her name.
(07:16):
uh And they were, what they were actually studying was the phenomenon of high achievingwomen who were then plagued by self doubt.
Cause it was, it was a thing that was worth studying.
If you fast forward to today, it's become this cultural catchphrase.
ah But here's the thing, it was a phenomenon.
(07:37):
It was never meant to imply that it was some kind of clinical diagnosis, and still we'rethrowing around this word syndrome, like we all have got together and contrived to catch
the fraud flu.
you know, I do, it always sort of bugged me.
It bugged me because I thought, well, here we are, we're women, we made it to theboardroom, and we have self-doubt, and we've got enough things against us, and then
(08:01):
they're giving us a syndrome to carry as well.
This is nonsense.
um
and it bugged me for like years and then finally I came across on LinkedIn this HarvardBusiness Review, God bless Harvard Business Review with the deep dives, right?
I went, aha, they've articulated it for me, so bear with me, Rocky, while I read a longishquote, but there's just no fat in what they write, so you have to sit with it.
(08:26):
um So what they said was, imposter brings a tinge of
criminal fraudulence to the feeling of simply being unsure, anxious about joining a newteam or learning a new skill, and then add to that the medical undertone of syndrome,
which recalls the female hysteria diagnoses of the 19th century.
(08:50):
Although feelings of uncertainty are expected and they're a normal part of professionallife, women who experience them are deemed to suffer from imposter syndrome.
Even if women demonstrate strength, ambition, and resilience, our daily battles withmicroaggressions, especially expectations and assumptions that have been formed by
(09:12):
stereotypes and racism, are often pushing us down for real.
Imposter syndrome as a concept fails to capture this dynamic and it puts the onus on womento deal with the effects.
Workplaces remain misdirected.
towards seeking individual solutions for issues disproportionately caused by systems ofdiscrimination and abuses of power.
(09:37):
I know it's kind of long and it's kind of academic, but I've always wanted to challengethe idea of imposter syndrome really hard.
Nobody ever said this was a diagnosable psychological disorder, not even the originalresearchers.
So calling it syndrome,
makes it sound like a diagnosis and it makes you think of that Victorian woman who'shysterical.
(10:02):
That's amazing.
I love it.
I love that quote.
One of the things I've discovered doing research for this episode is I went into theresearch thinking it was uniquely almost a problem for women.
But I've come to realize that it is not.
(10:25):
It's not.
Probably as many men say that they have suffered with imposter syndrome as women.
So we don't want any male listeners to think that we're not thinking about you because itjust so happens that this research is specifically on women.
And maybe it's the fact that women talk about this stuff more, which is why it feels likemore of a...
(10:48):
an issue that women struggle with.
So that was one new learning for me.
So shall we talk about Heather some of the ways in which imposter syndrome manifestsitself?
Yeah, I mean, I don't like the word syndrome and I don't like the word symptoms either,but the cat's out of the bag and it's already being spoken about that way.
(11:18):
So if we look at the ways in which it shows up basically, like you said, the way itmanifests itself, it is stuff like self-doubt, which we all hopefully get if we're humble
people.
Feeling like you fooled people in order to get where you are, like if you experience anykind of success or seniority or you win a prize, feeling like you somehow hoodwinked
(11:39):
everybody to get that.
uh And also stuff like overachieving and perfectionism, like we talked about earlier withthe different, like sort of five different archetypes of imposters.
uh When I look at that stuff, again, it's just me challenging this whole imposter syndromeidea, but.
I feel like every single one of those can have other explanations like systemicoppression.
(12:04):
And that leads to workplaces and scenarios where actually you're in the minority andactually other people do hold the power in influence and it's not you.
And sometimes then the knock on effect with that is that you have to appear grateful to beallowed to have a seat at the table.
And I think a lot of people that I can think of have experienced that.
(12:28):
Is that imposter syndrome or is that systemic oppression rearing its head inside of you?
um You kind of know that you need to be perfect and you need to overachieve to compensatefor being from a minority group.
And then finally, this is a bit of a wild card, but I don't want to forget about this too.
People have had family experiences and childhood experiences where you come home withseven A's and an A minus and the only thing that an elder in your family says is,
(12:56):
What about this A minus?
So, you know, there's all sorts of reasons, I think, that can make people develop a habitof feeling a certain way, that it doesn't mean that it's a deficiency in them that needs
healing or needs a mentor, but it's actually, you know, you're in a system that's causingyou to feel a certain type of way.
(13:16):
And so all of that kind of leads me up to my argument where I say,
Let's ditch this imposter syndrome thing because it's not a me problem, it's a youproblem.
But as my final point, I'm basically gonna undermine my own self because I think Lisa OrbeBoston, who's a researcher specifically into imposter syndrome, takes a look at systemic
(13:38):
oppression.
And I still think I'm right about everything I've just said, but I feel like her pointturns it all on its head.
She says, okay, fine, imagine if imposter syndrome is a you problem and not a me problem.
Fine, shall we instead trust our society to eradicate racism, xenophobia, sexism,homophobia, and any other oppression of systems that are basically making people feel this
(14:04):
way before we deal with the experience of imposter syndrome?
And after all my big arguments, which I think still have some validity to them, when Iread that I think, you know what, you're right, Dr.
Lisa is saying it doesn't matter
how it happened, but if people are feeling that self-doubt or feeling that sense thatthey're an imposter when they've achieved, if we're gonna wait until society is fixed,
(14:31):
then we're gonna be dead.
So wouldn't it be better to focus, right?
I'm working on it and we had a brawl in Alabama and we are working on it, right?
But it's not gonna end anytime soon.
So em maybe it is actually more...
effective to look at that experience that people are having and then work out how we allget over it.
(14:58):
The, uh what about the A minus is an actual Asian parenting manual.
When you were born, somebody like came and gave your parents a bunch.
which part of Asia you're from because I have this with my Chinese friends with myJapanese friends you bring home seven As and an A- and the Asian parent is focusing on the
(15:23):
A- true story.
Okay so I wanted to flip the conversation a bit we've done a lot of we've talked a lotabout people who have imposter syndrome or have discussed their imposter syndrome actually
one of the points I should just make when you say
It's not a me problem, it's a you problem.
I think it's an everyone problem.
(15:44):
70 % of people are saying that they have this imposter syndrome at times.
So I think it's an everyone problem.
And I think there's ways that we can all work together if we're more open about it inworkplaces.
So anyway, that was my final point on that.
the openness is interesting because when you told me the statistics that you found aboutmen who suffer from it, I think, well, that's news to me.
(16:11):
They should be louder about it then.
Because as a woman, I feel like we're in it alone.
But if I'm incorrect and we're not, please, men, speak up so that we all feel a bit morenormal.
Thank you.
Well, watch this BBC mini series, which is a nice balance of men and women talking abouttheir imposter syndrome.
So that's helped bust a few myths for me.
(16:34):
I wanted to talk also about this term, the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is something I'veheard for years, but I finally looked it up thanks to you.
And I think it's a really, really important element of what we're discussing.
So if you have imposter syndrome at one end of the spectrum,
which could be crippling self-doubt despite having the competence and the ability, then Ithink the Dunning-Kruger effect might be at the other end of the spectrum, which is this
(17:05):
unshakable confidence despite very little actual ability.
This is an actual thing.
I looked up the term and it comes from a 1999 study by two psychologists, David Dunningand Justin Kruger from Cornell.
university and they wrote a paper which with the most brilliant exquisite title calledunskilled and unaware of it.
(17:32):
Isn't that brilliant?
I like their paper already.
They're saying, let's just cut through the BS and call it what it is.
Unskilled and unaware of it.
So, the Dunning-Kruger effect is basically this.
People with low skill levels in a given area who tend to wildly overestimate theirabilities.
(17:53):
And this is generally because they lack the insight
to know what good performance actually looks like.
On the other hand, you've got people that we've just been discussing who areunderestimating themselves, assuming that what comes easy to them must be easy for
everybody.
Now, there is actually a hilarious story that triggered Dunning and Kruger to look intothis, let's call it a phenomenon effect.
(18:20):
and it was inspired by a real case of a chap called MacArthur Wheeler, such an Americanname, who tried to rob, I know, can you think of a more American name than MacArthur
Wheeler?
Who, I know, who robbed two banks in Pittsburgh with his face smeared in lemon juice, andthis is because he had read somewhere or heard somewhere that lemon juice is used as
(18:45):
invisible ink, and he genuinely believed that this would make
him invisible to security cameras.
So obviously he was caught.
That's the punchline of that story.
But Dunning and Kruger, hey, doofus, exactly.
But Dunning and Kruger read about this and thought, we should probably study this level ofdelusion.
(19:08):
And there you have it, the Dunning-Kruger effect, which has now used a lot more in commonvernacular and parlance to describe some of the people we're going to talk about in a
minute.
I mean, it's staggering, isn't it?
It's so stupid, it's kind of cute, but anyway.
(19:28):
uh
example is kind of stupid and cute but I think when we talk about some of the people thatwe're going to get on to...
yeah not so cute.
For Dunning-Kruger, the stats are really something.
(19:48):
We've got 81 % of entrepreneurs that will confidently bet that their startup has a 70 %chance of success.
And I bet you can already guess the overconfidence there.
Actually, 75 % of businesses are going to fail within the first five years.
But hey, optimism's free, right?
(20:09):
I mean, I just, wish I had that level of confidence.
Do you think you'd ever be able to start a business if you weren't overconfident though?
Ooh, good question.
mean, I have sort of started a business, but only with other people's hands in my back andgoing, would you like to work on this little project and that little project?
(20:33):
And it was ever so reluctantly taking projects until I turned around and I thought, maybeI need a logo.
So that's how it happened for me.
It definitely wasn't me charging out and going, woohoo!
But I don't know how many-
people have an accident like that, I think your point remains valid without any researchto back it up.
You've got to believe in your own genius to start something.
(20:56):
The Dunning-Kruger, what they're finding in the paper is, in their paper, the less youknow, the more confident you feel, because you're ignorant of your own incompetence.
And the more complex the task, this is a scary thing for all of us, if it's reallycomplex, like running a country or launching an app that nobody asks you to make, the
(21:17):
confidence goes up.
And there is actually a name for this as well, and guess what?
They get to have a syndrome too, and it's called Founder Syndrome.
And that's a syndrome when someone gets so attached to the company that they built thatthey can't take feedback.
They refuse to step aside.
And quite often you see people like that.
(21:37):
It's they themselves that drives the whole thing into the ground.
And they do the whole thing with a big confident smile on their face.
Meanwhile, confident people can't muster it up.
It's not just famous examples.
I've worked with a number of companies where the founders had a great idea and was theright person to get it to a point.
But after that, what you need are competent leaders, managers, people who will driveforward the growth of the business.
(22:06):
And the founder needs to take a step back, which I'm sure is very difficult to do.
Only the most self-aware people will.
know when to step back and let somebody else come in and take over.
So yeah, I'm au fait with this.
I think that's what leaves us where we are in this funny little spot where you've gotthese brilliant, capable, successful people who are plagued by imposter syndrome.
(22:30):
And you've got these spectacular failures who are sitting there genuinely thinking thatthey're crushing it.
So it's not always about not having the ability, right?
Sometimes it's the surplus of delusion.
that spurs people on to keep going when they should have taken a step back.
Absolutely.
So I like this segue into delusion.
(22:57):
There are a lot of delusional people out there, but I very cheekily, and this is verycheeky because, you know, we like to be a bit irreverent every once in a while.
I asked chat GPT last night whether any public figure from Eton School, who's left EtonSchool, ever discussed imposter syndrome.
(23:18):
So there are many, many public figures that we know, former prime ministers amongst them,many former prime ministers amongst them.
And Chat GPT said, and I quote verbatim, obviously this is just an AI tool, it might notbe fact, but it scans public information.
(23:39):
Chat GPT said, no prominent Eton alumnus has famously given a major speech or interviewspecifically
on imposter syndrome by name.
And you know what?
I had a little chuckle to myself because I wasn't surprised.
(24:00):
I mean, I can think of one major clown that's held public office recently that needs to betalking a little bit about imposter syndrome.
But there are plenty.
I mean, really, it's something about Eton, isn't it?
They just teach them that, you know, you're precious little boys and you'll all have aturn at being prime minister and you're fantastic and if anybody disagrees with you, then
(24:23):
they're wrong.
I could have done with a bit of that training, really.
You know?
I think we all could have done with a bit of that.
There was a really great bit in Sathnam Sanghera's book, Empireland, which I thoroughlyrecommend.
despite the criticism it's got, it is not the woke Bible against colonialism that youwould think.
(24:48):
It's actually quite balanced.
But there is a chapter on Eton School and these young men.
are educated and raised.
Well, originally, the point was that they would be the guardians of the colonies.
That they would, you know, so they were special, they were the chosen ones.
(25:09):
And yes, we have had several prime ministers who've gone to Eton schools.
So what that must do to your mindset.
I mean, you know, I went to a very ordinary school, I'm assuming you went to a veryordinary school back in the US.
We were not.
educated in that way, we were not raised in our families even in that way.
(25:31):
yeah.
Most of us in my school, people were expected to probably go into the military or just gostraight to work.
like uh interesting for, I don't, maybe half of us went to university in my graduatingclass or something.
But yeah, I do think that that childhood training has a lot to do with it.
um And I feel like also, weren't they also, didn't you also tell me that the Etonians havebeen trained to kind of not question things too much or think for themselves too much
(26:00):
because that was part of the prep?
for looking after the colonies was like, you've got a king, your king's gonna tell youwhat to do and you're just gonna be this upper echelon person who doesn't question
anything.
And so I think that's another additive factor.
If you've been told you're entitled and you've been taught never to question anything,then you're never gonna question your own entitlement.
(26:20):
No, good point.
Good point, but it does explain a lot, doesn't it?
It does explain...
explain Liz Truss but it explains a hell of a lot.
Well, Liz Truss, when we've had these conversations, is the person that pops up the mostin my head for the Dunning-Kruger effect because she had such a catastrophic premiership
(26:43):
and that is by any objective standard.
And I did want to be objective about this, so I did look up a few stats in terms of thestate of the economy when she left.
The pound plunged to a historic low of $1.03, which is the worst ever, but also the worstI can ever remember.
(27:06):
I mean, you're American.
Have you ever known the sterling to be nearly a dollar for dollar?
No.
I think that's about as low as it goes, yeah.
The 10-year guilt yields, and we all know what they are now because we were obsessed withguilts when she was Prime Minister for 44 days, soared from 3.2 % to 4.5 % within days,
(27:28):
which is nearly a 1 % point jump that triggered a Moron Premium actual name in borrowingcosts and Moron Premium.
god, what the heck is a moron premium?
And more on premium is exactly how it sounds, which is because of policy missteps or crapfiscal policy, basically.
(27:52):
You have a premium now.
I've not been a fan of all these invented terms, but I feel like that's one that I can getbehind.
I think we can, I can certainly get behind moron premium.
So other things that she completely messed up in her 44 days, the resolution foundationestimates her agenda opened a 30 billion pound fiscal hole, comprising 20 billion pounds
(28:17):
in unfunded tax cuts and another 10 billion in heightened borrowing costs and.
We're currently being told there's like a 40 billion pound black hole.
Guess where it came from people.
Homeowners suffered a lot.
So house prices fell by 5%.
Wiping out roughly £336 billion in property value, which some people will say might bewell needed to recalibrate the property market.
(28:48):
But anyway, for the purposes of this conversation, we're just trying to show the disaster.
you know, national wealth, yeah.
Absolutely.
Whereas the typical mortgage payments surged and caused so much pain and they surged onaverage by about £220 a month.
so much for people.
It's really personal, isn't it?
(29:12):
By the end of 2024, about 4 million homeowners faced an additional £5,100 in mortgagecosts.
No one has that.
Ouch.
So anyway, there you go.
The spectacular...
(29:32):
She was a disaster.
The spectacular overconfidence going into that fiscal event.
Absolutely not a trace of imposter syndrome as she burnt the house down and everybody elsepaid the price.
And this is the real like punch in the throat to everybody.
Is that she then went on to write and publish...
(29:55):
A book called 10 years to save the West.
What?
after after destroying an economy she then has the confidence to go write and publish abook called 10 years to save the west i didn't look up how many copies it sold i'm
assuming it didn't do that well but the audacity
(30:15):
It's a lot.
And she's an example of such breathtaking incompetence.
I feel like Dunning-Kruger can be the only explanation because it's just, there's all thisevidence around you that it's not going well.
And all she could do is just take a bunch of selfies and put it up on her social media.
It's just madness, do you remember?
(30:38):
And the lettuce was the only thing that kept me going, the lettuce.
The lettuce.
The lettuce knew that it could outlast the prime minister.
I feel like the lettuce neither had imposter syndrome nor Dunning-Kruger.
The lettuce just had a realistic assessment of its own ability to outlast the primeminister.
(30:59):
to
to that.
need more people with neither of the two, just a realistic explanation, sorry, realisticassessment of their own abilities.
Because there's other people that have imposter syndrome that you would not believe.
Of course, I also didn't know this off the top of my head, and I did look it up.
But my...
freaking Angelou of all people said that she had these nagging self doubts, right?
(31:25):
I couldn't imagine having such a wonderful voice as her, but she'd say, I've written 11books and every time I write one I think, uh oh, like as if she's gonna be found out,
right?
And Albert freaking Einstein called himself an involuntary swindler.
I mean, are you kidding me?
(31:45):
So, so right, let me get this straight.
Maya Angelou has imposter syndrome, but Boris Johnson doesn't.
Einstein himself has snagging self-doubt that he thinks he's swindled humanity, but ElonMusk is totally fine jumping around, showing us his belly button.
The hell.
(32:06):
I just wanted to jump in on the Elon Musk thing because I think he has achieved so much interms of the amount of wealth he's accumulated that that would banish any imposter
syndrome that you might have.
So I just wanted to push back on that point.
I'm not surprised he doesn't.
(32:28):
dad gave it to, has dad got it from apartheid and gave it to him?
It doesn't matter if his dad gave it to him.
The fact that even with his great privilege start in life, he's become the richest man inthe world.
You would get this sense of, you know, like a Messiah complex that you can do anything,that you are a genius, that everyone keeps telling you.
(32:51):
And also there's a lot of kind of fanboys and girls out there for Elon Musk who keepreinforcing this.
So I think with those really big
famous personalities I can kind of see there's just no crack fate imposter syndrome toever set in.
Yeah, okay Noah, I can change my position on that.
I think maybe you're right, Elon Musk probably doesn't deserve to have imposter syndrome.
(33:15):
He's just an eye hole.
How about that?
Well, he does deserve it now because he's absolutely tanked Tesla and he's absolutelytanked X and his spaceships are blowing up and it's just at what point will he sit down
and go, hmm, I'm not as good at this as I thought I was.
(33:40):
I was watching a couple of interviews with both Obamas at different times and this reallyresonated with me.
Michelle Obama, and I'll read the quote so I don't get it wrong.
Michelle Obama said on her Becoming Book Tour, another book that's worth a read if anyoneneeds recommendations.
It's a great book.
I have been at probably every powerful table that you can think of...
(34:05):
they are not that smart.
my god, I knew it.
And I have walked into many companies and organizations in the past where I thought, God,I'm not going to be as smart as everybody else or I didn't go to as good a university as
(34:26):
them.
I won't be able to cope or thrive in this environment.
Like I've got to do more than everyone else to succeed.
And it's really true.
most rooms you walk into, you're fine.
You're good.
You don't need to worry about it.
Just have confidence in your little area of knowledge and you're good to go.
(34:52):
Sorry, go ahead.
shall I leave everybody with an Obama quote?
Because he's always quite inspiring to us and I think this is a really, really good thingto carry around with you if you do feel like an imposter.
So Barack Obama said, here's the secret, even the people who look like they've got it allfigured out, they don't.
I've been in the rooms with world leaders, business leaders, and it's not all that.
(35:17):
A lot of them are just winging it.
Render Your Own Mute is hosted by Rakhi Verma and Heather Deland and produced by TigrisConsulting and Mediation.
Editing is done by Rakhi, so if it's crap, it's because she's Indian and would rather diethan outsource something that technically could be done for free.
(35:39):
Theme music is by The Mountain on Pixabay.
Please follow, rate and review because laughter is cheaper than therapy and much moreeffective than HR.
See you next time.
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