October 13, 2025 • 41 mins
Why do some people breeze through their careers with unshakeable confidence, while others — often the most competent — feel like frauds?
In part two of Unskilled and Unaware of It, Rakhee Verma digs into why imposter syndrome hits some harder than others.
Business psychologist Clare Radford, founder of &Culture, explains what imposter syndrome really is, how it shows up at work, and what individuals and leaders can do to manage it.
Then broadcaster and journalist Pip Tomson opens up about living with imposter syndrome under the public spotlight, sharing how she’s learned to quiet her inner critic and own her success.
Guest Links: 🔗 Clare Radford – linkedin.com/in/clareradforduk 🔗 Pip Tomson on Instagram – @PipTomson
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:33):
Hi everyone and welcome back to Brenda, you're on mute.
I'm Rakhee and I'm flying solo for this episode but Heather will be back very soon.
This is part two of our previous episode, Unskilled and Unaware of it, Why Some PeopleDon't Get Imposter Syndrome.
In part one, Heather and I talked about imposter syndrome, what it feels like, where itcomes from and why so many of us struggle to believe we belong at the table.
(01:02):
We also talked about why some people, Liz Truss, we're looking at you, performdisastrously in their jobs and still don't seem to suffer from it.
In part two, we continue this discussion.
I'm joined by two fantastic guests who bring both professional and personal perspectivesto the conversation.
First up, Clare Radford, a business psychologist who's worked with leaders across sectorsto help them build confidence, resilience and self-awareness.
(01:31):
And later you'll hear from broadcaster and journalist Pip Thompson who shares her ownexperience of self-doubt in one of the most high-pressure industries around, live
television.
So we're delighted for this episode on imposter syndrome to have somebody who actuallyknows what she's talking about and is properly trained in the subject and an expert in the
(01:54):
field.
Welcome Clare Radford.
Clare is a business psychologist and runs her own business called & Culture.
Clare, perhaps you can just give a quick introduction on who you are and what you do.
Yeah, thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
I'm delighted to be here.
As you said, I'm a business psychologist and my company and culture works withorganisations on things like leadership development, culture change.
(02:19):
So I'm a bit like Simon Sinek, but less annoying.
Those are your words, not mine.
So Heather and I have been having a chat about imposter syndrome without a real expert toback up what we've been talking about.
So we've done our own Google research, which has its place, but we really want to talk tosomebody who
works on this topic with actual humans and individuals and really understands inside outits impact, what it really is and just the other information that we're not necessarily
(02:51):
going to find from the internet.
One of the things I think we should probably start with is your definition of impostersyndrome?
Yeah, Imposter syndrome is a psychological pattern of thoughts and beliefs whereindividuals doubt their abilities, they disbelieve their achievements, and they have a
(03:13):
persistent fear of being exposed as a fraud.
And what tends to happen is we see a cycle of behaviours then unfold.
So typically there will be a trigger.
probably something like getting a new job or a promotion or an opportunity.
And this kicks into those feelings of anxiety and self-doubt.
(03:35):
Then what we tend to see is a resulting behavior.
And that behavior can be anything on a spectrum from really overworking, so perfectionism,to try and overcome those feelings of self-doubt through to paralysis, so feeling unable
to do anything
or even down to underworking, so procrastination and self-sabotage as well.
(03:59):
So that is the really active phase of imposter syndrome, if you like.
And what happens is when you come out of that, you typically get some feedback.
And that could be direct feedback from a manager, a colleague, or it could be indirectfeedback, just the way that people are looking at you when you're delivering against this
opportunity.
And what we tend to see is individuals with imposter syndrome will hyper-focus on thenegatives.
(04:24):
So they take on board and they internalise the stuff that they didn't do very well andthey ignore the positives.
This then compounds those feelings of being an imposter and so the cycle continues andreinforces.
And the reason I think it's so important to talk about this topic is that we know feelingsof imposter syndrome are linked to things like increased anxiety, depression and burnout.
(04:50):
It leads to significantly lower levels of innovation and creativity.
On average, it results in lower salaries and also less likelihood of pursuing careeropportunities.
So there are some real negative outcomes associated with feelings of imposter syndrome.
So it can really hold people back
(05:11):
Yeah, exactly.
from fulfilling their full potential.
How widespread is it?
How often are you encountering it as a business psychologist?
Well, yeah, mean, one of the things that I like to do is to debunk some myths aboutimposter syndrome.
And one of the myths that is out there at the moment is that everyone has impostersyndrome.
(05:33):
I think it's easy to understand why people think that because we talk about it such a lot.
It's become really popularized in social media and with celebrities.
So everyone's talking about it.
But actually what the research shows is probably about 70 % of the population experienceimposter syndrome
at some point during their life.
And it's important to note that imposter syndrome is not all encompassing.
(05:57):
It's not that you feel it about every aspect of your life, at every point of your life.
Probably you'll feel it about one topic and it will come and go.
It's not that you either have it or you don't have it.
Would you say it's more about people's careers and work than their personal life or can itbe both?
(06:19):
It can be both, it can be either.
I think um because I'm a business psychologist, I often work with people who have thesefeelings around work and career.
And certainly in our society where we chase progression at work, that can be the triggerfor the cycle that we've talked about.
But absolutely, it can affect you when it comes to being a parent, being a partner, beinga good person, being a great friend.
(06:45):
People can experience those feelings of imposter syndrome
in any walks of life.
What are some of the other myths around imposter syndrome that you've seen while you'vebeen doing this work?
Yeah, I think a lot of people believe that it is an exclusively female experience.
And I definitely see a lot of conversation about that, probably because the originalresearch was done with a group of females.
(07:11):
But we've now had decades of research that has replicated those findings with all genders,all ethnicities, all generations.
So it actually affects everybody to around about the same degree.
There's even some really recent research that indicates black males might be thedemographic that are affected more so.
(07:33):
So it's absolutely not a female only experience.
So I remember you telling me that Stephen Bartlett, the famous podcaster and dragon, haddone a post, I think, about imposter syndrome.
Why don't you tell us what he said and what your response was to him?
Yeah, well, this is my favorite myth of all, to be honest, which is that imposter syndromecan be a superpower.
(07:56):
And celebrities like Stephen Bartlett are often posting about, my success is down to myimposter syndrome.
It's really healthy to feel this way.
It's what pushes me to achieve and to grow.
And I always call that out.
I always challenge it because I think it's really dangerous.
And I think what they're actually doing is...
they're conflating very normal feelings of being out of your comfort zone.
(08:20):
That is a really healthy indicator of being in growth or self-development.
And they're confusing that with true imposter syndrome, which for people that haveexperienced it will agree is really debilitating.
And whilst it's a common experience, it's not normal.
We shouldn't be normalising those negative feelings because we know it can lead to someof.
(08:42):
the health outcomes we've talked about already, things like stress, anxiety, depression.
So what was your response to him when he posted that imposter syndrome is a superpower?
I mean, I very politely but strongly tried to explain the difference between being outsideof your comfort zone and what true feelings of imposter syndrome really are, because I
(09:03):
think it's quite lazy.
It's a real shorthand way of saying, I'm pushing myself out of my comfort zone withoutreally understanding what's going on for people that genuinely experience imposter
syndrome.
And if you or your listeners have experienced it, you'll know.
Far from being a superpower, it can lead to absolute paralysis and a failure to moveforward and grow.
(09:25):
Yeah, when I've had it in the past and I've learned to manage it as I've got older, it'sbeen completely debilitating, And that didn't feel like a superpower at the time.
One of the things that Heather and I've been discussing is, and really the reason for thisepisode was there are a lot of people in public life, whether they're politicians or
(09:48):
business leaders.
that seem to be failing upwards.
I'm sure there's a handful of examples that we could name.
And they just don't seem to have it.
So these are people that are not doing a great job, as I said, failing upwards, crashingtheir businesses and never seeming to appear like they have any self doubt.
And I really wanted to explore that with you and just see what your thinking was aroundthat.
(10:12):
Why is it that some people don't seem to have it?
when Who are this 30 % that don't ever experience it?
great question.
Yeah, and I think there's a couple of things going on there.
So let's unpack the true examples of where people don't have imposter syndrome.
And then I think there's something else you're talking about there, which is aroundconfidence and competence as well.
So just thinking about people that genuinely don't have imposter syndrome.
(10:35):
There was uh an interview that went viral recently in America.
It was with the rugby player, I think you pronounce it, Ilona Maher.
And the interviewer asked her, it's brilliant, have a look, because the interviewer saysto her, how do you handle feelings of imposter syndrome?
And this woman is really successful, rugby player.
And she just turned around and said, I don't have that.
(10:57):
I don't get that because I genuinely feel I deserve my success.
And I thought she'd just summarised so nicely some of the things that I notice aboutpeople who don't have it.
And I noticed three things about those people.
So.
First of all, they have a really stable sense of self-esteem.
They are not dependent on other people's opinions in order to feel good about themselves.
(11:21):
The second thing I notice is that they really take time to internalise and celebrate theirsuccesses.
And often they will identify the reasons for their success are because they've workedreally hard or because they're very talented.
And that's probably because of the third thing, which is they're encouraged from a youngage to celebrate and own their success.
(11:45):
And I think for many of us, we are taught not to show off, don't brag, be quiet.
So we never learn how to celebrate success and how to own that.
So there are some examples out there of people that have achieved real success and feelable to own that and don't experience imposter syndrome.
But then I think there is another phenomenon that you're thinking about where we see theseleaders who achieve great success but actually don't have the competence to back it up.
(12:16):
And often I think that is a slightly different topic, but there is something called theDunning-Kruger effect, which demonstrates that often the people with the least amount of
ability will tend to overestimate their competence in a field, whereas the people withmore abilities and more experience will grossly underestimate their abilities.
(12:37):
And that's almost a result of uh not knowing what you don't know yet.
And the researchers managed to find that people do this in
all fields.
Probably the best example was around humour.
So they asked two groups of people, just your average Joe on the street, how funny do youthink you are on a scale of one to 10?
And most people rated themselves as an eight or nine out of 10, despite the fact they hadreally poor abilities and no experience.
(13:04):
And then they asked professional comedians who were rating themselves on average muchlower, maybe a three or a four
despite the fact they were really funny.
And that's because once you have a little bit of knowledge, you realise how much there isto learn and how much you don't yet know.
So we have this uh combination of factors around overconfidence, lower abilities,overestimating our abilities.
(13:31):
And then I think we also have to throw into the mix that in our society, we often confuseconfidence with competence.
So there have been loads of studies around leaders who are either promoted within businessor elected politicians and they all have very similar traits that we would describe as
confidence.
(13:52):
So they are extroverted, they're probably quite high on aggression, they are outspoken,they're probably quite big physically.
And to the average human, we believe that means that they're highly competent, thatthey're really able to deliver in the job that they're being elected into, but it means
(14:13):
nothing of the sort.
There is actually no correlation between confidence and competence.
And actually on some occasions, the more confident you are, the less competent you can beas well.
And there's loads of research around this.
So I think some of the people that you and Heather have been reflecting on and thinkingabout, few names might come to mind.
(14:33):
What we're seeing is they look really confident but they're failing to deliver in the job.
This might be a bit of an unfair question, but you mentioned earlier about this rugbyplayer who answered in a really confident way, and it might be down to the fact that she
was praised by her parents as a child.
Do you think you can over praise?
Like if your child is never told off for doing anything wrong and they've kind of becomethis little messiah in the family.
(15:03):
Because you see some of that in people's adult behaviour.
I wonder if you, I don't know if you know much about kind of child psychology, but isthere something in that perhaps, people's roots?
yeah, and it's important to note I'm not a child psychologist, but in my research on thistopic, I have looked quite deeply into the root causes of imposter syndrome.
And I think like anything, there is a really healthy balance.
(15:26):
I think when children are younger, it is really important to establish that foundation ofself-belief.
And that means praising them, not just when they're achieving really good things, but
praising them for being who they are, being their whole selves, being able to expresstheir emotions.
(15:47):
But there's a healthy level, which I think is what you're talking about.
You know, they also need to recognise that there are times when they could do better andthat their behaviour does need to shift.
And from a young age, everything we do is conditioning children to become the adults thatthey are.
So, yes, I think it is possible to overpraise.
(16:08):
I think there is a healthy level.
m of establishing self-esteem, but also teaching them societal norms, boundaries, and ahealthy level of self-doubt as well.
Yeah, that sounds good.
I think when Boris Johnson was a kid, he said he wanted to be world king and nobody everdisagreed with him.
(16:28):
No one ever slapped him down.
You can totally see that.
I just wanted to ask a bit about the root causes because you mentioned before that, blackmales, for example, is a group that stands out as maybe particularly susceptible, would
you say, to imposter syndrome?
What are some of the root causes?
Why are different groups feeling it more than others or why did I think that it was womenmore than men?
(16:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think to your last question about why do we think it's women more than men, that'sbecause of how it has been popularised in media, that it's all to do with women, that all
women have it, which we now know is absolutely not true.
And then if we think about the root causes, really, if I'm honest, we don't know whatcauses imposter syndrome, but we can probably make an educated guess from psychology
(17:16):
around other instances like this, that it is formed in early childhood.
And so typically what we would want to do with an individual experiencing impostersyndrome is go back to their childhood and think about what were the roles that they
played in that family and what kind of environment did they grow up in?
And in particular, we want to look at how and when did they receive praise because as achild, this is how we form our self view and our self esteem.
(17:42):
So if you were only ever praised when you achieved things like academic success orsporting success,
your self-esteem and your self-view is then highly dependent on external achievements tofeel good.
So we can then follow through as an adult, those individuals will never feel their fullself-worth unless they're achieving things, unless they're getting a PhD, unless they're
(18:07):
getting a promotion and a bonus at work.
And then conversely, if we look at children who never received any praise for anything inchildhood,
they never establish a good level of self-worth.
And so their whole lives they will spend feeling, I'm not worthy of this success.
This is nothing to do with me.
(18:27):
They'll explain it away as luck or being in the right place at the right time.
Or they might think it's just because I'm a nice person because they never establishedthat self-worth as a child.
So I think there are multiple causes in childhood.
But then what we have,
are the triggers that we experience later in life.
And this is where groups like black males or underrepresented groups can have a doublewhammy of, well, first of all, I feel like an imposter internally, but then I'm also
(18:56):
experiencing that in real life.
And we know things like systemic racism and misogyny will reinforce feelings of you don'tfit in here, you don't deserve that success.
as a female, you know, I'm constantly being talked over in boardrooms and it reinforcesthat belief of, don't deserve to be here, no one wants to listen to me.
(19:18):
So some groups do have that double impact as well.
Yeah, that really resonates with me because I think anyone that was listening to yourpoint about being praised for academic achievements, well, that's Asian kids all over.
you are not praised for anything other than academic achievement often.
(19:40):
And then you go as a British Asian person or a British black person into university.
I was the first, for example, in my family as a female to go to university, completelyconfusing environment.
You then plonked in work with people who, in my case, had gone to really fancy schools andhad a really kind of expensive education and came from a different class.
(20:03):
You know, I come from a working class background and all the way through you are justfeeling like you don't belong.
And I think it's just compounded and compounded because there's no language to describeit.
I think.
I am going to ask you about how we can overcome some of these feelings, but really there'swork to be done in terms of the systemic issues.
(20:24):
What do you think?
What's your view on that?
mean, I 100 % agree.
I think there are so many things we need to do both culturally and systemically within thebusiness world, which is my particular area of interest, to overcome some of these
barriers, to identify the ways in which we are propping up feelings of imposter syndrome.
(20:45):
I have this conversation with clients all the time to say, if you are serious aboutimproving and reducing feelings of imposter syndrome, you have to look at some of the
systemic barriers, some of the cultural norms in your organization.
But what we know is that stuff takes time.
it's going to take time and real effort to change that.
And so my view is that whilst we're looking at that, we should also be empowering peopleto make a shift within themselves and to change the way they think and feel about
(21:14):
themselves whilst we also sort out the wider systemic issues at the same time.
And it brings me to another myth, which is that when you've got imposter syndrome, you'restuck with it.
You're never going to change it.
And as a psychologist, I strongly believe and I see every day evidence that we can ashumans rewire our brain, change our thinking and shift our behavior.
(21:38):
And it takes time and it takes effort, but I see people doing it all the time.
So Clare, give us some tips.
What can we practically do ourselves to help manage our imposter syndrome?
I would say first of all, that it's unlikely you're going to flip a switch and justcompletely turn off those feelings of imposter syndrome.
(22:02):
But what I do talk to clients about is turning the volume down on this voice that tells uswe don't deserve our success.
And there are loads of things that you can do.
I'll share four with you today to start thinking about.
The first is to reflect on the root causes.
I think that in order to change, we really need to understand why we think and behave in acertain way.
(22:24):
So think back to childhood roles, think back to the environment that you grew up in, andin particular, what were some of the things happening that formed your level of
self-belief and self-esteem?
Once you understand a little bit better about the triggers and where that comes from, youcan then start to challenge that as an adult and understand that that might not have been
(22:45):
the healthiest way to build your self-esteem.
The second thing I'd think about then is really taking time to acknowledge yourachievements.
So often we just skip over compliments and we ignore positive feedback.
But if we want to rewire our thinking, you have to take time to internalise success.
(23:06):
So I would set aside some time every week or every month and think about what are some ofthe good things that happened and what was it about me that enabled that success, really
own those wins and those successes.
And I've actually, I've got a folder on my desktop I can see here and it's called I'm ShitHot.
And anytime something good happens or I get some good feedback, it goes straight into theI'm Shit Hot folder.
(23:31):
And when I'm feeling triggered, when I'm feeling like an imposter,
I go into that folder and remind myself, no, I am good at this and here's some proof, someevidence to challenge that self-thinking.
So start to collect those success stories and take time to internalize them would be oneof my tips.
Other things I would think about are challenging yourself talk.
(23:54):
So when we want to rewire our brain, it's really important that we think about how do wetalk to ourselves on a day-to-day basis.
And if we are constantly saying something like, I'm rubbish at public talking, what we'redoing is conditioning our brain and our body to believe that we are rubbish at public
speaking.
So I would say start to identify what some of that negative self-talk, can you start tochallenge it and can you start to reframe it positively?
(24:23):
And if we do this repeatedly, what we do is we build new neural pathways and we enhanceour self-belief and self-esteem as well.
And then the final tip would be to talk about it.
So like we're doing today, find some trusted people that you can share your experienceswith, that you can externalise these feelings.
(24:45):
And sometimes just getting an objective outside opinion is enough to snap us out of thatcycle that we talked about earlier.
So think about who in your circle you trust enough to allow in and maybe talk to whenyou're feeling triggered by events.
I am getting a I'm shit hot folder onto my laptop within 60 seconds of ending thisdiscussion.
(25:13):
My final question to you, and that's been so helpful.
Thank you so much.
This is ultimately a podcast about the business world.
How is the business world responding?
So the companies that you're working with, there has to be a tangible benefit.
There's got to be an economic return or a productivity boost.
to addressing some of these issues.
So why don't you tell me what you've seen from working with your clients and how you feelthey're responding to this.
(25:37):
Yeah, I'm definitely seeing more of a demand for this.
So I run group sessions and also one-to-one sessions around imposter syndrome, basicallydebunking myths and trying to get people to a place where they reduce those feelings.
And what we see as a result of that is things like improved innovation and creativity,which is so important in, you know, where the markets are so overwhelmed with competition.
(26:03):
having individual and humanised innovation is now such a compelling thing for anorganisation to have.
But if organisation is full of people feeling like an imposter, they're not going to feelconfident enough to take risks to try new things.
So I would say that's the first thing we're seeing.
And then more people who are achieving their potential.
(26:26):
So again, by reducing those feelings of imposter syndrome, what we see is people that are
more able to put themselves forward for promotions, for sideways moves that are pushingthemselves out of their comfort zone and achieving more within an organization, which my
background is in talent.
You know, we see organisations really struggling to find new talent at the moment.
(26:50):
The talent pools are all shrinking.
So if you have a workforce who are more willing to step out of their comfort zone and takeon more responsibilities,
That is a fantastic thing to have in terms of ROI and making the best of your peopleassets.
That's brilliant.
And then overall, suppose a more indirect uh result of some of this work is you have agroup of leaders, typically I'm working with senior leaders, who are better informed about
(27:16):
imposter syndrome, who are more able to dismantle some of the systemic causes of it andare better able to support their staff lower down the organisation.
who might be experiencing some of this as well.
So it really pays itself forward the more people that are educated and talking about it.
Amazing.
I'm sure anyone listening who's experiencing this or got these issues if they're abusiness leader in their organisation will want to talk to you.
(27:43):
So how can people get in touch with you?
We will share your details in the show notes as well.
Yeah, fab.
mean, have a look at the website and culture consulting.com.
I'm also on LinkedIn, Clare Radford UK and you'll see me getting into fights with StephenBartlett on there if you enjoy that.
em And let's, yeah, I'll share my email address.
So if people want to contact me, they're more than welcome to.
(28:05):
That's brilliant.
Thank you so much, Clare.
You've enlightened me and hopefully everyone that's listening.
That was Clare Radford who gave a brilliant overview of some of the causes of impostersyndrome and what can be done to address them, especially in the workplace.
(28:26):
Let's face it, doing nothing doesn't just affect confidence, it affects performance,productivity, and ultimately the bottom line.
Now we're shifting gears to hear from someone you might never expect to have struggledwith imposter syndrome.
Pip Thompson has spent years in front of the camera as a journalist and broadcaster.
kind of person who always seems effortlessly confident, composed and completely at homeunder the spotlight.
(28:52):
But behind that calm exterior is someone who knows exactly what it feels like to questionherself, even when millions of people are watching or listening.
Pip shared with me how she's learned to navigate those moments of self doubt and what wecan all take from her experience.
So I am delighted to have Pip Thompson as a contributor to this episode on impostersyndrome.
(29:17):
Some of you will recognize her name from Good Morning Britain.
Pip Thompson is a broadcaster and a journalist.
And most recently, you are a certified dog trainer who's graduated from the VictoriaStillwell Academy.
Welcome to this episode, Pip.
Thank very much, Rocky.
It's great to be here to talk about something very close to my heart.
(29:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
Should we dive straight in then?
We were having a conversation a couple of weeks ago, probably about dogs or somethingrandom, and this came up as a topic.
So why don't you tell us how it came up and why you are a mini expert on imposter syndromenow?
Well, I've certainly got personal experience because I think it's something that'safflicted me probably all my life, maybe even before the start of my professional life.
(30:11):
Even at school, I was somebody who thought, you know, I'm not going to pass my exams, I'mgoing to get found out, I'm not as clever as my school report seemed to suggest.
I went through all that as a teenager.
At 16, when I was thinking of doing A levels, it was a case of, maybe I can't do A levelsbecause I'm not really that capable.
(30:36):
I am going to get found out.
My A levels are going to show me up for the incapable person that I really am.
I remember my mum saying, if you don't want to do your A levels, that's fine.
There's plenty you can do that you can train to do and we'll find out what that rightthing is for you.
But don't not do your A levels because of these reasons, which are just so, so untrue.
(31:02):
And I listened to my mum and went and did my A levels and did very well.
So all was good.
And then when I went into...
into journalism and then into broadcast.
Again, probably every time I went into a television studio or went to do a live broadcastout on location, there was a feeling of today I'm going to come a cropper, today I'm going
(31:28):
to get found out.
Didn't matter how much experience I've got.
Where does it stem from, do you think?
Because it started really young.
I think I found my school days quite difficult, be honest.
Socially, I found them quite difficult.
at home, I was a very confident, highly energetic child.
(31:56):
I used to dance around the house, performing, driving my family mad, chatty chatty chatty.
But at school...
I was a different person.
I always felt like I was a different person.
felt I was shy, I think.
I was for whatever reason, I was a target for the, you know, for the for the girls.
(32:19):
And that started at primary school.
And I remember at school, there was
think it was 21 boys and seven girls in my class.
So I was always conscious that that was an odd number and I was the odd girl out.
Then I went on to senior school and most of the class went to a couple of schools in localarea.
(32:44):
I went to a private girls school down the road.
And again, at the private girls school, which I thought would be a completely differentenvironment and a different experience socially, for whatever reason, I still struggled.
Mmm.
I suppose with being liked.
And I don't know what it was and I think that constantly feeling like you're not goodenough, you're not popular enough, I think it ends up having a very deep-seated effect on
(33:15):
you.
Clearly, how did it manifest itself then specifically?
Let's just take walking into a TV studio as an example.
You're there for work.
What happens?
so walking into a TV studio, em that was okay.
It was an adrenaline rush, so I loved the buzz of it.
(33:36):
And this is where It's all a bit paradoxical because
actually doing the job of going into a TV studio or going live on location.
I loved the challenge.
I loved that element of jeopardy.
But I always needed feedback.
So I could never look myself in the mirror and go, that was a good live you did there,Pip.
(33:59):
That was good.
I always had to have feedback from somebody else, whether it was good or bad.
And then if the producers said, that was a great live, my day.
But the confidence...
for me, has taken a long time for that confidence to come from within.
It was always dependent on other people.
(34:22):
So if someone gave you positive, not good, not good, but I think it's a journey that a lotof us recognise.
So when somebody did give you positive feedback, so the producer thinks you've done agreat job, did you accept it?
Were you able to accept it and believe it?
maybe for a few hours, and then the next time I'd do it, it was a revolving circle, youknow, it was an endless circle of great, I did a good job on that one, but next time might
(34:49):
not be so good.
I find it very hard to take compliments, and it annoys my mum, I find it very hard to takecompliments or to take positive comments from people.
And it's almost like it's this default position that I've taken where, you know, my mumwill say to me, you're such a good daughter, you're so helpful, you're so this, and I'll
(35:18):
be like, mum, I just do what any child would do.
Or I'm not really.
She'll say, you do so much to help me.
I'm like, no, don't, And she gets annoyed and she'll say to me, can you not just accept?
something positive that somebody says to you to you instead of always putting yourselfdown.
(35:39):
I'm going to say what I say to people when they have trouble accepting compliments and Iwas one of those people.
A compliment is a gift.
So it's like somebody's handing you a present and you are then giving it back to them.
So someone says, here's a gift Pip and you go, no thanks.
(35:59):
It's a really, really good way of looking at it.
Yeah.
it's helped me anyway.
No, it's still a work in progress even at the age of, what am I now, 47.
It's still a work in progress.
Yeah.
At what point did you understand what was happening to you and what have you done to tryand manage it?
(36:25):
I certainly think, you know, talking about it and becoming more and more self-aware,self-reflective, counselling.
I have counselling, which really helps.
And it all relates to the negative chatter.
(36:47):
And, you know, there's a lot of negative chatter that goes on.
One of the things I've taken is thoughts are not facts, so that's probably my mantra.
The thoughts you have about yourself are not facts.
I find reading stuff really helps.
You know, I find, who do I like, say, Matt Haig, the author Matt Haig.
(37:09):
He's brilliant.
You know, there's lovely little nuggets in his books that I can just pull out and think,yeah.
That's one to remember, that's one to write down, that's one to stick on my fridge.
Mel Robbins, podcaster, again, fantastic.
What helps me is when I hear other people's experiences and I realise that I'm not alonein feeling like that.
(37:37):
none of it really makes sense with me being like this.
It's like how the
hell did I end up going into the broadcast world where you're roping yourself up to loadsof people to be judged.
It just doesn't make sense.
What does make sense in that?
I'd love to unpick that a bit.
Do you think that your personality as a child, like wanting to perform, is really what'sbeen able to get you in front of TV and on the radio?
(38:07):
What do you think's driven it?
Or is it overcompensating maybe for those feelings of not feeling worthy enough to dosomething completely at the opposite end of the spectrum?
Where do you think it stems from?
I think it's both.
I think when I was a kid, loved watching like Saturday morning live TV, for example.
(38:35):
It was all so busy, the lighting, things would go wrong.
What else did they used to be when I was growing up?
Noel's house party, that was another one.
So I loved all that excitement of live television.
When I was a kid, I used to pretend that I was presenting live news.
(38:57):
So that was kind of in me from an early age that I wanted to do something in that world.
But then I think there was also an element of those childhood experiences where it was acase of...
wanting to prove maybe other people wrong.
(39:18):
Yeah.
the evidence.
So you have this, it's challenging yourself, isn't it?
You think this, but here's the weight of evidence which actually completely negates whatyou're saying.
So I think I'm a fraud.
Okay, let's just look at this pic.
You went into broadcasting.
(39:41):
You you've been in the broadcast business for 20 odd years now.
you're a producer, you're a reporter, you were a presenter.
You've done all these things.
You know, if you were that, do you really think that you would have had the career thatyou've had and...
(40:02):
the experiences that you've had and met the people you have, So yeah, putting yourself inthe courtroom is always quite a good one.
Pip, I'm really glad we finished on a positive because despite what you've been through asa kid and the behaviors and feelings that have manifested as a result, you've been an
(40:22):
absolute rip-roaring success in your career.
And I think that is a great moral of the story to finish on.
So thanks so much for joining our episode and hopefully we'll speak again.
Thanks Rocky, loved it.
Hi everyone and welcome back to Brenda, you're on mute.
I'm Rakhee and I'm flying solo for this episode but Heather will be back very soon.
This is part two of our previous episode, Unskilled and Unaware of it, Why Some PeopleDon't Get Imposter Syndrome.
In part one, Heather and I talked about imposter syndrome, what it feels like, where itcomes from and why so many of us struggle to believe we belong at the table.
(01:02):
We also talked about why some people, Liz Truss, we're looking at you, performdisastrously in their jobs and still don't seem to suffer from it.
In part two, we continue this discussion.
I'm joined by two fantastic guests who bring both professional and personal perspectivesto the conversation.
First up, Clare Radford, a business psychologist who's worked with leaders across sectorsto help them build confidence, resilience and self-awareness.
(01:31):
And later you'll hear from broadcaster and journalist Pip Thompson who shares her ownexperience of self-doubt in one of the most high-pressure industries around, live
television.
So we're delighted for this episode on imposter syndrome to have somebody who actuallyknows what she's talking about and is properly trained in the subject and an expert in the
(01:54):
field.
Welcome Clare Radford.
Clare is a business psychologist and runs her own business called & Culture.
Clare, perhaps you can just give a quick introduction on who you are and what you do.
Yeah, thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
I'm delighted to be here.
As you said, I'm a business psychologist and my company and culture works withorganisations on things like leadership development, culture change.
(02:19):
So I'm a bit like Simon Sinek, but less annoying.
Those are your words, not mine.
So Heather and I have been having a chat about imposter syndrome without a real expert toback up what we've been talking about.
So we've done our own Google research, which has its place, but we really want to talk tosomebody who
works on this topic with actual humans and individuals and really understands inside outits impact, what it really is and just the other information that we're not necessarily
(02:51):
going to find from the internet.
One of the things I think we should probably start with is your definition of impostersyndrome?
Yeah, Imposter syndrome is a psychological pattern of thoughts and beliefs whereindividuals doubt their abilities, they disbelieve their achievements, and they have a
(03:13):
persistent fear of being exposed as a fraud.
And what tends to happen is we see a cycle of behaviours then unfold.
So typically there will be a trigger.
probably something like getting a new job or a promotion or an opportunity.
And this kicks into those feelings of anxiety and self-doubt.
(03:35):
Then what we tend to see is a resulting behavior.
And that behavior can be anything on a spectrum from really overworking, so perfectionism,to try and overcome those feelings of self-doubt through to paralysis, so feeling unable
to do anything
or even down to underworking, so procrastination and self-sabotage as well.
(03:59):
So that is the really active phase of imposter syndrome, if you like.
And what happens is when you come out of that, you typically get some feedback.
And that could be direct feedback from a manager, a colleague, or it could be indirectfeedback, just the way that people are looking at you when you're delivering against this
opportunity.
And what we tend to see is individuals with imposter syndrome will hyper-focus on thenegatives.
(04:24):
So they take on board and they internalise the stuff that they didn't do very well andthey ignore the positives.
This then compounds those feelings of being an imposter and so the cycle continues andreinforces.
And the reason I think it's so important to talk about this topic is that we know feelingsof imposter syndrome are linked to things like increased anxiety, depression and burnout.
(04:50):
It leads to significantly lower levels of innovation and creativity.
On average, it results in lower salaries and also less likelihood of pursuing careeropportunities.
So there are some real negative outcomes associated with feelings of imposter syndrome.
So it can really hold people back
(05:11):
Yeah, exactly.
from fulfilling their full potential.
How widespread is it?
How often are you encountering it as a business psychologist?
Well, yeah, mean, one of the things that I like to do is to debunk some myths aboutimposter syndrome.
And one of the myths that is out there at the moment is that everyone has impostersyndrome.
(05:33):
I think it's easy to understand why people think that because we talk about it such a lot.
It's become really popularized in social media and with celebrities.
So everyone's talking about it.
But actually what the research shows is probably about 70 % of the population experienceimposter syndrome
at some point during their life.
And it's important to note that imposter syndrome is not all encompassing.
(05:57):
It's not that you feel it about every aspect of your life, at every point of your life.
Probably you'll feel it about one topic and it will come and go.
It's not that you either have it or you don't have it.
Would you say it's more about people's careers and work than their personal life or can itbe both?
(06:19):
It can be both, it can be either.
I think um because I'm a business psychologist, I often work with people who have thesefeelings around work and career.
And certainly in our society where we chase progression at work, that can be the triggerfor the cycle that we've talked about.
But absolutely, it can affect you when it comes to being a parent, being a partner, beinga good person, being a great friend.
(06:45):
People can experience those feelings of imposter syndrome
in any walks of life.
What are some of the other myths around imposter syndrome that you've seen while you'vebeen doing this work?
Yeah, I think a lot of people believe that it is an exclusively female experience.
And I definitely see a lot of conversation about that, probably because the originalresearch was done with a group of females.
(07:11):
But we've now had decades of research that has replicated those findings with all genders,all ethnicities, all generations.
So it actually affects everybody to around about the same degree.
There's even some really recent research that indicates black males might be thedemographic that are affected more so.
(07:33):
So it's absolutely not a female only experience.
So I remember you telling me that Stephen Bartlett, the famous podcaster and dragon, haddone a post, I think, about imposter syndrome.
Why don't you tell us what he said and what your response was to him?
Yeah, well, this is my favorite myth of all, to be honest, which is that imposter syndromecan be a superpower.
(07:56):
And celebrities like Stephen Bartlett are often posting about, my success is down to myimposter syndrome.
It's really healthy to feel this way.
It's what pushes me to achieve and to grow.
And I always call that out.
I always challenge it because I think it's really dangerous.
And I think what they're actually doing is...
they're conflating very normal feelings of being out of your comfort zone.
(08:20):
That is a really healthy indicator of being in growth or self-development.
And they're confusing that with true imposter syndrome, which for people that haveexperienced it will agree is really debilitating.
And whilst it's a common experience, it's not normal.
We shouldn't be normalising those negative feelings because we know it can lead to someof.
(08:42):
the health outcomes we've talked about already, things like stress, anxiety, depression.
So what was your response to him when he posted that imposter syndrome is a superpower?
I mean, I very politely but strongly tried to explain the difference between being outsideof your comfort zone and what true feelings of imposter syndrome really are, because I
(09:03):
think it's quite lazy.
It's a real shorthand way of saying, I'm pushing myself out of my comfort zone withoutreally understanding what's going on for people that genuinely experience imposter
syndrome.
And if you or your listeners have experienced it, you'll know.
Far from being a superpower, it can lead to absolute paralysis and a failure to moveforward and grow.
(09:25):
Yeah, when I've had it in the past and I've learned to manage it as I've got older, it'sbeen completely debilitating, And that didn't feel like a superpower at the time.
One of the things that Heather and I've been discussing is, and really the reason for thisepisode was there are a lot of people in public life, whether they're politicians or
(09:48):
business leaders.
that seem to be failing upwards.
I'm sure there's a handful of examples that we could name.
And they just don't seem to have it.
So these are people that are not doing a great job, as I said, failing upwards, crashingtheir businesses and never seeming to appear like they have any self doubt.
And I really wanted to explore that with you and just see what your thinking was aroundthat.
(10:12):
Why is it that some people don't seem to have it?
when Who are this 30 % that don't ever experience it?
great question.
Yeah, and I think there's a couple of things going on there.
So let's unpack the true examples of where people don't have imposter syndrome.
And then I think there's something else you're talking about there, which is aroundconfidence and competence as well.
So just thinking about people that genuinely don't have imposter syndrome.
(10:35):
There was uh an interview that went viral recently in America.
It was with the rugby player, I think you pronounce it, Ilona Maher.
And the interviewer asked her, it's brilliant, have a look, because the interviewer saysto her, how do you handle feelings of imposter syndrome?
And this woman is really successful, rugby player.
And she just turned around and said, I don't have that.
(10:57):
I don't get that because I genuinely feel I deserve my success.
And I thought she'd just summarised so nicely some of the things that I notice aboutpeople who don't have it.
And I noticed three things about those people.
So.
First of all, they have a really stable sense of self-esteem.
They are not dependent on other people's opinions in order to feel good about themselves.
(11:21):
The second thing I notice is that they really take time to internalise and celebrate theirsuccesses.
And often they will identify the reasons for their success are because they've workedreally hard or because they're very talented.
And that's probably because of the third thing, which is they're encouraged from a youngage to celebrate and own their success.
(11:45):
And I think for many of us, we are taught not to show off, don't brag, be quiet.
So we never learn how to celebrate success and how to own that.
So there are some examples out there of people that have achieved real success and feelable to own that and don't experience imposter syndrome.
But then I think there is another phenomenon that you're thinking about where we see theseleaders who achieve great success but actually don't have the competence to back it up.
(12:16):
And often I think that is a slightly different topic, but there is something called theDunning-Kruger effect, which demonstrates that often the people with the least amount of
ability will tend to overestimate their competence in a field, whereas the people withmore abilities and more experience will grossly underestimate their abilities.
(12:37):
And that's almost a result of uh not knowing what you don't know yet.
And the researchers managed to find that people do this in
all fields.
Probably the best example was around humour.
So they asked two groups of people, just your average Joe on the street, how funny do youthink you are on a scale of one to 10?
And most people rated themselves as an eight or nine out of 10, despite the fact they hadreally poor abilities and no experience.
(13:04):
And then they asked professional comedians who were rating themselves on average muchlower, maybe a three or a four
despite the fact they were really funny.
And that's because once you have a little bit of knowledge, you realise how much there isto learn and how much you don't yet know.
So we have this uh combination of factors around overconfidence, lower abilities,overestimating our abilities.
(13:31):
And then I think we also have to throw into the mix that in our society, we often confuseconfidence with competence.
So there have been loads of studies around leaders who are either promoted within businessor elected politicians and they all have very similar traits that we would describe as
confidence.
(13:52):
So they are extroverted, they're probably quite high on aggression, they are outspoken,they're probably quite big physically.
And to the average human, we believe that means that they're highly competent, thatthey're really able to deliver in the job that they're being elected into, but it means
(14:13):
nothing of the sort.
There is actually no correlation between confidence and competence.
And actually on some occasions, the more confident you are, the less competent you can beas well.
And there's loads of research around this.
So I think some of the people that you and Heather have been reflecting on and thinkingabout, few names might come to mind.
(14:33):
What we're seeing is they look really confident but they're failing to deliver in the job.
This might be a bit of an unfair question, but you mentioned earlier about this rugbyplayer who answered in a really confident way, and it might be down to the fact that she
was praised by her parents as a child.
Do you think you can over praise?
Like if your child is never told off for doing anything wrong and they've kind of becomethis little messiah in the family.
(15:03):
Because you see some of that in people's adult behaviour.
I wonder if you, I don't know if you know much about kind of child psychology, but isthere something in that perhaps, people's roots?
yeah, and it's important to note I'm not a child psychologist, but in my research on thistopic, I have looked quite deeply into the root causes of imposter syndrome.
And I think like anything, there is a really healthy balance.
(15:26):
I think when children are younger, it is really important to establish that foundation ofself-belief.
And that means praising them, not just when they're achieving really good things, but
praising them for being who they are, being their whole selves, being able to expresstheir emotions.
(15:47):
But there's a healthy level, which I think is what you're talking about.
You know, they also need to recognise that there are times when they could do better andthat their behaviour does need to shift.
And from a young age, everything we do is conditioning children to become the adults thatthey are.
So, yes, I think it is possible to overpraise.
(16:08):
I think there is a healthy level.
m of establishing self-esteem, but also teaching them societal norms, boundaries, and ahealthy level of self-doubt as well.
Yeah, that sounds good.
I think when Boris Johnson was a kid, he said he wanted to be world king and nobody everdisagreed with him.
(16:28):
No one ever slapped him down.
You can totally see that.
I just wanted to ask a bit about the root causes because you mentioned before that, blackmales, for example, is a group that stands out as maybe particularly susceptible, would
you say, to imposter syndrome?
What are some of the root causes?
Why are different groups feeling it more than others or why did I think that it was womenmore than men?
(16:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think to your last question about why do we think it's women more than men, that'sbecause of how it has been popularised in media, that it's all to do with women, that all
women have it, which we now know is absolutely not true.
And then if we think about the root causes, really, if I'm honest, we don't know whatcauses imposter syndrome, but we can probably make an educated guess from psychology
(17:16):
around other instances like this, that it is formed in early childhood.
And so typically what we would want to do with an individual experiencing impostersyndrome is go back to their childhood and think about what were the roles that they
played in that family and what kind of environment did they grow up in?
And in particular, we want to look at how and when did they receive praise because as achild, this is how we form our self view and our self esteem.
(17:42):
So if you were only ever praised when you achieved things like academic success orsporting success,
your self-esteem and your self-view is then highly dependent on external achievements tofeel good.
So we can then follow through as an adult, those individuals will never feel their fullself-worth unless they're achieving things, unless they're getting a PhD, unless they're
(18:07):
getting a promotion and a bonus at work.
And then conversely, if we look at children who never received any praise for anything inchildhood,
they never establish a good level of self-worth.
And so their whole lives they will spend feeling, I'm not worthy of this success.
This is nothing to do with me.
(18:27):
They'll explain it away as luck or being in the right place at the right time.
Or they might think it's just because I'm a nice person because they never establishedthat self-worth as a child.
So I think there are multiple causes in childhood.
But then what we have,
are the triggers that we experience later in life.
And this is where groups like black males or underrepresented groups can have a doublewhammy of, well, first of all, I feel like an imposter internally, but then I'm also
(18:56):
experiencing that in real life.
And we know things like systemic racism and misogyny will reinforce feelings of you don'tfit in here, you don't deserve that success.
as a female, you know, I'm constantly being talked over in boardrooms and it reinforcesthat belief of, don't deserve to be here, no one wants to listen to me.
(19:18):
So some groups do have that double impact as well.
Yeah, that really resonates with me because I think anyone that was listening to yourpoint about being praised for academic achievements, well, that's Asian kids all over.
you are not praised for anything other than academic achievement often.
(19:40):
And then you go as a British Asian person or a British black person into university.
I was the first, for example, in my family as a female to go to university, completelyconfusing environment.
You then plonked in work with people who, in my case, had gone to really fancy schools andhad a really kind of expensive education and came from a different class.
(20:03):
You know, I come from a working class background and all the way through you are justfeeling like you don't belong.
And I think it's just compounded and compounded because there's no language to describeit.
I think.
I am going to ask you about how we can overcome some of these feelings, but really there'swork to be done in terms of the systemic issues.
(20:24):
What do you think?
What's your view on that?
mean, I 100 % agree.
I think there are so many things we need to do both culturally and systemically within thebusiness world, which is my particular area of interest, to overcome some of these
barriers, to identify the ways in which we are propping up feelings of imposter syndrome.
(20:45):
I have this conversation with clients all the time to say, if you are serious aboutimproving and reducing feelings of imposter syndrome, you have to look at some of the
systemic barriers, some of the cultural norms in your organization.
But what we know is that stuff takes time.
it's going to take time and real effort to change that.
And so my view is that whilst we're looking at that, we should also be empowering peopleto make a shift within themselves and to change the way they think and feel about
(21:14):
themselves whilst we also sort out the wider systemic issues at the same time.
And it brings me to another myth, which is that when you've got imposter syndrome, you'restuck with it.
You're never going to change it.
And as a psychologist, I strongly believe and I see every day evidence that we can ashumans rewire our brain, change our thinking and shift our behavior.
(21:38):
And it takes time and it takes effort, but I see people doing it all the time.
So Clare, give us some tips.
What can we practically do ourselves to help manage our imposter syndrome?
I would say first of all, that it's unlikely you're going to flip a switch and justcompletely turn off those feelings of imposter syndrome.
(22:02):
But what I do talk to clients about is turning the volume down on this voice that tells uswe don't deserve our success.
And there are loads of things that you can do.
I'll share four with you today to start thinking about.
The first is to reflect on the root causes.
I think that in order to change, we really need to understand why we think and behave in acertain way.
(22:24):
So think back to childhood roles, think back to the environment that you grew up in, andin particular, what were some of the things happening that formed your level of
self-belief and self-esteem?
Once you understand a little bit better about the triggers and where that comes from, youcan then start to challenge that as an adult and understand that that might not have been
(22:45):
the healthiest way to build your self-esteem.
The second thing I'd think about then is really taking time to acknowledge yourachievements.
So often we just skip over compliments and we ignore positive feedback.
But if we want to rewire our thinking, you have to take time to internalise success.
(23:06):
So I would set aside some time every week or every month and think about what are some ofthe good things that happened and what was it about me that enabled that success, really
own those wins and those successes.
And I've actually, I've got a folder on my desktop I can see here and it's called I'm ShitHot.
And anytime something good happens or I get some good feedback, it goes straight into theI'm Shit Hot folder.
(23:31):
And when I'm feeling triggered, when I'm feeling like an imposter,
I go into that folder and remind myself, no, I am good at this and here's some proof, someevidence to challenge that self-thinking.
So start to collect those success stories and take time to internalize them would be oneof my tips.
Other things I would think about are challenging yourself talk.
(23:54):
So when we want to rewire our brain, it's really important that we think about how do wetalk to ourselves on a day-to-day basis.
And if we are constantly saying something like, I'm rubbish at public talking, what we'redoing is conditioning our brain and our body to believe that we are rubbish at public
speaking.
So I would say start to identify what some of that negative self-talk, can you start tochallenge it and can you start to reframe it positively?
(24:23):
And if we do this repeatedly, what we do is we build new neural pathways and we enhanceour self-belief and self-esteem as well.
And then the final tip would be to talk about it.
So like we're doing today, find some trusted people that you can share your experienceswith, that you can externalise these feelings.
(24:45):
And sometimes just getting an objective outside opinion is enough to snap us out of thatcycle that we talked about earlier.
So think about who in your circle you trust enough to allow in and maybe talk to whenyou're feeling triggered by events.
I am getting a I'm shit hot folder onto my laptop within 60 seconds of ending thisdiscussion.
(25:13):
My final question to you, and that's been so helpful.
Thank you so much.
This is ultimately a podcast about the business world.
How is the business world responding?
So the companies that you're working with, there has to be a tangible benefit.
There's got to be an economic return or a productivity boost.
to addressing some of these issues.
So why don't you tell me what you've seen from working with your clients and how you feelthey're responding to this.
(25:37):
Yeah, I'm definitely seeing more of a demand for this.
So I run group sessions and also one-to-one sessions around imposter syndrome, basicallydebunking myths and trying to get people to a place where they reduce those feelings.
And what we see as a result of that is things like improved innovation and creativity,which is so important in, you know, where the markets are so overwhelmed with competition.
(26:03):
having individual and humanised innovation is now such a compelling thing for anorganisation to have.
But if organisation is full of people feeling like an imposter, they're not going to feelconfident enough to take risks to try new things.
So I would say that's the first thing we're seeing.
And then more people who are achieving their potential.
(26:26):
So again, by reducing those feelings of imposter syndrome, what we see is people that are
more able to put themselves forward for promotions, for sideways moves that are pushingthemselves out of their comfort zone and achieving more within an organization, which my
background is in talent.
You know, we see organisations really struggling to find new talent at the moment.
(26:50):
The talent pools are all shrinking.
So if you have a workforce who are more willing to step out of their comfort zone and takeon more responsibilities,
That is a fantastic thing to have in terms of ROI and making the best of your peopleassets.
That's brilliant.
And then overall, suppose a more indirect uh result of some of this work is you have agroup of leaders, typically I'm working with senior leaders, who are better informed about
(27:16):
imposter syndrome, who are more able to dismantle some of the systemic causes of it andare better able to support their staff lower down the organisation.
who might be experiencing some of this as well.
So it really pays itself forward the more people that are educated and talking about it.
Amazing.
I'm sure anyone listening who's experiencing this or got these issues if they're abusiness leader in their organisation will want to talk to you.
(27:43):
So how can people get in touch with you?
We will share your details in the show notes as well.
Yeah, fab.
mean, have a look at the website and culture consulting.com.
I'm also on LinkedIn, Clare Radford UK and you'll see me getting into fights with StephenBartlett on there if you enjoy that.
em And let's, yeah, I'll share my email address.
So if people want to contact me, they're more than welcome to.
(28:05):
That's brilliant.
Thank you so much, Clare.
You've enlightened me and hopefully everyone that's listening.
That was Clare Radford who gave a brilliant overview of some of the causes of impostersyndrome and what can be done to address them, especially in the workplace.
(28:26):
Let's face it, doing nothing doesn't just affect confidence, it affects performance,productivity, and ultimately the bottom line.
Now we're shifting gears to hear from someone you might never expect to have struggledwith imposter syndrome.
Pip Thompson has spent years in front of the camera as a journalist and broadcaster.
kind of person who always seems effortlessly confident, composed and completely at homeunder the spotlight.
(28:52):
But behind that calm exterior is someone who knows exactly what it feels like to questionherself, even when millions of people are watching or listening.
Pip shared with me how she's learned to navigate those moments of self doubt and what wecan all take from her experience.
So I am delighted to have Pip Thompson as a contributor to this episode on impostersyndrome.
(29:17):
Some of you will recognize her name from Good Morning Britain.
Pip Thompson is a broadcaster and a journalist.
And most recently, you are a certified dog trainer who's graduated from the VictoriaStillwell Academy.
Welcome to this episode, Pip.
Thank very much, Rocky.
It's great to be here to talk about something very close to my heart.
(29:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
Should we dive straight in then?
We were having a conversation a couple of weeks ago, probably about dogs or somethingrandom, and this came up as a topic.
So why don't you tell us how it came up and why you are a mini expert on imposter syndromenow?
Well, I've certainly got personal experience because I think it's something that'safflicted me probably all my life, maybe even before the start of my professional life.
(30:11):
Even at school, I was somebody who thought, you know, I'm not going to pass my exams, I'mgoing to get found out, I'm not as clever as my school report seemed to suggest.
I went through all that as a teenager.
At 16, when I was thinking of doing A levels, it was a case of, maybe I can't do A levelsbecause I'm not really that capable.
(30:36):
I am going to get found out.
My A levels are going to show me up for the incapable person that I really am.
I remember my mum saying, if you don't want to do your A levels, that's fine.
There's plenty you can do that you can train to do and we'll find out what that rightthing is for you.
But don't not do your A levels because of these reasons, which are just so, so untrue.
(31:02):
And I listened to my mum and went and did my A levels and did very well.
So all was good.
And then when I went into...
into journalism and then into broadcast.
Again, probably every time I went into a television studio or went to do a live broadcastout on location, there was a feeling of today I'm going to come a cropper, today I'm going
(31:28):
to get found out.
Didn't matter how much experience I've got.
Where does it stem from, do you think?
Because it started really young.
I think I found my school days quite difficult, be honest.
Socially, I found them quite difficult.
at home, I was a very confident, highly energetic child.
(31:56):
I used to dance around the house, performing, driving my family mad, chatty chatty chatty.
But at school...
I was a different person.
I always felt like I was a different person.
felt I was shy, I think.
I was for whatever reason, I was a target for the, you know, for the for the girls.
(32:19):
And that started at primary school.
And I remember at school, there was
think it was 21 boys and seven girls in my class.
So I was always conscious that that was an odd number and I was the odd girl out.
Then I went on to senior school and most of the class went to a couple of schools in localarea.
(32:44):
I went to a private girls school down the road.
And again, at the private girls school, which I thought would be a completely differentenvironment and a different experience socially, for whatever reason, I still struggled.
Mmm.
I suppose with being liked.
And I don't know what it was and I think that constantly feeling like you're not goodenough, you're not popular enough, I think it ends up having a very deep-seated effect on
(33:15):
you.
Clearly, how did it manifest itself then specifically?
Let's just take walking into a TV studio as an example.
You're there for work.
What happens?
so walking into a TV studio, em that was okay.
It was an adrenaline rush, so I loved the buzz of it.
(33:36):
And this is where It's all a bit paradoxical because
actually doing the job of going into a TV studio or going live on location.
I loved the challenge.
I loved that element of jeopardy.
But I always needed feedback.
So I could never look myself in the mirror and go, that was a good live you did there,Pip.
(33:59):
That was good.
I always had to have feedback from somebody else, whether it was good or bad.
And then if the producers said, that was a great live, my day.
But the confidence...
for me, has taken a long time for that confidence to come from within.
It was always dependent on other people.
(34:22):
So if someone gave you positive, not good, not good, but I think it's a journey that a lotof us recognise.
So when somebody did give you positive feedback, so the producer thinks you've done agreat job, did you accept it?
Were you able to accept it and believe it?
maybe for a few hours, and then the next time I'd do it, it was a revolving circle, youknow, it was an endless circle of great, I did a good job on that one, but next time might
(34:49):
not be so good.
I find it very hard to take compliments, and it annoys my mum, I find it very hard to takecompliments or to take positive comments from people.
And it's almost like it's this default position that I've taken where, you know, my mumwill say to me, you're such a good daughter, you're so helpful, you're so this, and I'll
(35:18):
be like, mum, I just do what any child would do.
Or I'm not really.
She'll say, you do so much to help me.
I'm like, no, don't, And she gets annoyed and she'll say to me, can you not just accept?
something positive that somebody says to you to you instead of always putting yourselfdown.
(35:39):
I'm going to say what I say to people when they have trouble accepting compliments and Iwas one of those people.
A compliment is a gift.
So it's like somebody's handing you a present and you are then giving it back to them.
So someone says, here's a gift Pip and you go, no thanks.
(35:59):
It's a really, really good way of looking at it.
Yeah.
it's helped me anyway.
No, it's still a work in progress even at the age of, what am I now, 47.
It's still a work in progress.
Yeah.
At what point did you understand what was happening to you and what have you done to tryand manage it?
(36:25):
I certainly think, you know, talking about it and becoming more and more self-aware,self-reflective, counselling.
I have counselling, which really helps.
And it all relates to the negative chatter.
(36:47):
And, you know, there's a lot of negative chatter that goes on.
One of the things I've taken is thoughts are not facts, so that's probably my mantra.
The thoughts you have about yourself are not facts.
I find reading stuff really helps.
You know, I find, who do I like, say, Matt Haig, the author Matt Haig.
(37:09):
He's brilliant.
You know, there's lovely little nuggets in his books that I can just pull out and think,yeah.
That's one to remember, that's one to write down, that's one to stick on my fridge.
Mel Robbins, podcaster, again, fantastic.
What helps me is when I hear other people's experiences and I realise that I'm not alonein feeling like that.
(37:37):
none of it really makes sense with me being like this.
It's like how the
hell did I end up going into the broadcast world where you're roping yourself up to loadsof people to be judged.
It just doesn't make sense.
What does make sense in that?
I'd love to unpick that a bit.
Do you think that your personality as a child, like wanting to perform, is really what'sbeen able to get you in front of TV and on the radio?
(38:07):
What do you think's driven it?
Or is it overcompensating maybe for those feelings of not feeling worthy enough to dosomething completely at the opposite end of the spectrum?
Where do you think it stems from?
I think it's both.
I think when I was a kid, loved watching like Saturday morning live TV, for example.
(38:35):
It was all so busy, the lighting, things would go wrong.
What else did they used to be when I was growing up?
Noel's house party, that was another one.
So I loved all that excitement of live television.
When I was a kid, I used to pretend that I was presenting live news.
(38:57):
So that was kind of in me from an early age that I wanted to do something in that world.
But then I think there was also an element of those childhood experiences where it was acase of...
wanting to prove maybe other people wrong.
(39:18):
Yeah.
the evidence.
So you have this, it's challenging yourself, isn't it?
You think this, but here's the weight of evidence which actually completely negates whatyou're saying.
So I think I'm a fraud.
Okay, let's just look at this pic.
You went into broadcasting.
(39:41):
You you've been in the broadcast business for 20 odd years now.
you're a producer, you're a reporter, you were a presenter.
You've done all these things.
You know, if you were that, do you really think that you would have had the career thatyou've had and...
(40:02):
the experiences that you've had and met the people you have, So yeah, putting yourself inthe courtroom is always quite a good one.
Pip, I'm really glad we finished on a positive because despite what you've been through asa kid and the behaviors and feelings that have manifested as a result, you've been an
(40:22):
absolute rip-roaring success in your career.
And I think that is a great moral of the story to finish on.
So thanks so much for joining our episode and hopefully we'll speak again.
Thanks Rocky, loved it.
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