April 6, 2024 • 24 mins
In this conversation, Megan Clendening joins Amy and Kevin to recap the latest session of the Relational Cadre with a follow-up discussion of the importance of open spaces for making mistakes, embracing uncertainty, and the transformative power of metaphors that can help us view the world differently.
Some resources mentioned in this episode:
"A Personal Reflection: The Power of Code Switching" (blog post} by Bibi Al-Ebrahim https://amizade.org/a-personal-reflection-the-power-of-code-switching/
"Darmok, under 8 minutes" (YouTube) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ8_F6jYWv4
"Extremely Stupid - Saturday Night Live" (YouTube) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-5FwVv5Udo
Dr. Amy Banks https://amybanksmd.com/#av-tab-section-1-2-link
Cadre is a podcast that explores concepts from Relational-Cultural Theory (RCT), a psychological theory that started with Jean Baker Miller, and grew through collaboration and connection in places like the Stone Center at Wellesley College. RCT is built on the idea that people grow through and towards relationships, and that those relationships shape and are shaped by the cultures we co-create. Culture often creates challenges to connection through inequity and hierarchies.
Each year, the Bloomington Center for Connection selects a guiding theme for monthly small-group discussions of RCT concepts.
Megan Clending is an educator and principal of Walter L. Newberry Math & Science Academy in Chicago Public Schools.
Amy Makice is the founder of Bloomington Center for Connection and a licensed psychotherapist based in Bloomington, Indiana. Amy offers individual therapy and parent support for people in the Bloomington area, workshops for parents and caregivers, and training on Relational Cultural theory.
Kevin Makice is a user experience designer and enthusiastic gamer who has been steeping in RCT for three decades.
Theme music created by Vlad Gluschenko ("Positive Thinking" and "Serpantine") and downloaded from Soundcloud through Creative Commons Attribution 3.0.
https://soundcloud.com/vgl9/positive-thinking https://soundcloud.com/vgl9/serpantine https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/deed.en
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:20):
So what do you think? We just got done with a session where we,
a third session for the relational cadre on sharing the experience and focusing
on metaphors and symbols and communication.
What were some of the things that stood out for you? I'm excited to hear yours
because you ended saying you were feeling really energized and other people
(00:42):
in your group said inspired.
We've been trying to do something rather than just have a second discussion in the second half.
And And this whole topic was challenging for me because it's important.
And I think through our discussions last week and through what we did today,
I mean, I understand what metaphors are.
It was fun to look into memes and the history and what their importance are.
(01:04):
But, you know, using them intentionally can be somewhat difficult. cult.
And so what our exercise was, was to basically have a conversation that was
all metaphor in the spirit of Darmok and Jalad and Star Trek.
I was with two people who, Thax and Jackie, who were very willing to say things
(01:28):
and to be the first to say something and were very good listeners and were contributing.
And we, I think we, we just had a.
An experience where we all sort of felt like we were making this thing together.
And it wasn't necessarily what I had envisioned going into this,
but it was very poetic and Thax likened it to sort of a thing that humans must
(01:54):
have done years and years and years and centuries and generations ago,
just basically making observations and relating things.
And so we started with the prompt of I am, we had a seal, we had a butterfly, and we had the stars.
And then we tried to put that together in what our group is.
(02:15):
And I forget exactly what it was, but it was something like the nighttime forest.
The facts iterated on that a little bit more, but then it was just waiting for
people to say something and then trying to incorporate it.
And it went on for, you know, it was probably the only last 10 minutes that
we started talking about it. it.
And so I, it just was a really nice experience and it was challenging,
(02:38):
not just to, to do the starting, which I didn't have to do.
Cause I was trying to just get into the breakout room, but you know, when does it end?
And there were a couple of times when I thought there was enough silence there
that, uh, and the themes in my mind were sort of concluding,
but then somebody would add something else.
And so it, it kept going and it was this sense of power and being able to shape
(03:02):
this, like everything that I said mattered,
but at the same time, completely allowing it to go wherever it was going to go.
So I was powerless in that I didn't know.
I was filled with curiosity and uncertainty about what this was going to be
and what people were going to contribute and very dependent on that.
(03:22):
But in the end, it was just this really connective kind of experience for me.
And it was also draining. I mean, I don't know whether I could have done that
for a half hour, but for the time that we spent on it, it was really nice to,
it was a good experience.
And that's why I'm energized is that I, it was surprising to me because I didn't
(03:44):
think it would work quite like that. It wouldn't feel that good to me, but it did.
I'm glad we laughed a lot. I heard you.
I think when you said like, it wasn't what I envisioned going into it.
And I think part of this is because of listening to you guys ahead of time.
Sometimes as an adult, the hardest thing is to go into something not knowing,
(04:08):
not having it planned just perfectly.
But however, sometimes the experience is better when you don't have everything
set out just perfectly. It's an interesting balance trying to figure that out in something like this.
What's the balance between preparation
and freedom so that people can each individually feel their own power?
(04:34):
Adults allowing yourselves to be curious can allow for the space to play and
then can allow for, as you explore that curiosity, to give yourself more of
a sense of power in the good way.
Like all things that I like to plan, I don't necessarily have to know how it's
going to go, but I want there to be a structure, some scaffolding that I can at least anticipate.
(04:57):
And for me, that was giving somebody a task to do. They needed to communicate
this thing and they had to do it through metaphor.
And that worked for me in the planning part of it because it was concrete and
I thought that would help people into it.
But what was great about this wasn't the thing that we ended up with.
(05:17):
It wasn't the product of the story.
And it wasn't whether we were doing it right or not. That was something that
had to be let go right away.
It was the connection between people that it was a space that all three of us,
I think, felt we were meaningful in doing this thing together.
And it was something that we could take it in the direction that we want and
(05:38):
we would respond to it, that we would include it in the story in our thinking.
But everybody talked about their mental model of what we were creating being different.
That's likely true. Interesting. My picture of the valley that I had or where
there was river. We didn't even mention water for a while.
So there were things like that that I had to put in because there was a seal involved.
(06:00):
And I thought, you know. You wanted the seal to have some water.
I wanted the seal to have some place to go. Yeah. Yeah.
And that's a good lesson is it doesn't matter what the plan is.
Is it's just you know being around people
and sharing but also feeling like it's a space that we can create and is is
really critical and i and i guess i needed that too yeah one of the things about
(06:24):
rct that i that i want for people just entering into it to really get is how reassuring it can be.
Going into the therapy room when you've got RCT and you think what matters is
making this connection.
(06:44):
Like that's the foundation. And then you're not as worried about,
do I have the right worksheet or diagnosis or whatever you're worried about
that day, sort of letting go of the controlling it.
Now you don't have to have the answer. You just need to be able to connect.
It and when when you're talking kevin you're talking about
(07:05):
not going in not trying to persuade like
no one in your group was like oh no it has to be my story
i want it this way one of the things we talked about in our group was the metaphor
of not being seen and not being understood and i was holding that while hearing
you say everything i said mattered yeah very different there are three Three groups.
(07:28):
I know what we did in ours, and I heard you speak, but you didn't really,
you sort of spoke around what the mechanism was that you ended up doing to share
the metaphors. And I don't know what the third group actually did.
We just kept throwing out metaphors. Like we started with, you know, my life is a...
(07:49):
And we had circus and cat toy, cat toy, dog park, dog park.
Our group is a tall oak tree walking into a daycare with a universal translator on.
And then we got to where like we couldn't communicate something.
And one of us said, oh, Megan, your universal translator is broken.
(08:13):
And then and we were laughing a lot of the nonsensical aspect of it.
Another thing we said was our group is a Saturday Night Live skit.
And then right after the cadre ended while we were waiting for your computer
to charge, we listened to or watched the Saturday Night Live skit that Megan was referencing,
(08:36):
which is Gilda Radner and Candace Bergen.
And part of what makes that funny is Gilda Radner's character not understanding
metaphors and saying things like, I'm thirsty as a horse.
That's a really good Gilda Radner laugh.
(08:58):
And you're not too bright, are you? Like, you know, that kind of thing.
Yeah, it felt like our group had to return several times. And I think we did
successfully return to like, how do you connect while you're trying new things?
And how do you create space to make mistakes and get it wrong?
(09:20):
And I think with the type of play that we were doing here today,
you have to be able to get it wrong.
Again, if we went in and the most important thing is playing the game correctly
or understanding the game.
As opposed to just being around people who can help you understand the game,
(09:42):
or are you just going to enjoy being around?
I mean, the games that we play aren't the purpose. It's the thing that gathers people together.
What this activity did was there were really no real rules and we just sort of had to figure it out.
And the only way you could figure it out is to play it together.
(10:02):
Other. I also was really intrigued because part of what I was picturing wasn't
just this imagery, the literal things of a seal and a butterfly and stars,
but also that it was Jackie and it was Thax and it was me.
And so when the stars did something with the presence of the seal,
the butterfly, I was thinking of Kevin interacting with Thax and Jackie.
(10:26):
And that literally, that literally it was a metaphor.
That the metaphor was the layer of communication. So I was really trying to
channel my inner Darmok and try to put that through, but I was trying to think
of it in terms of the people who were in there with me.
And that was just an interesting layer. And I don't know if we didn't talk about
(10:48):
it, but I'd be interested to know if they were doing the same thing.
There was some hesitation of what to bring into the story and what not to,
So Jackie had seen something with the eclipses as Oreo cookies and introduced that.
And later Thax, we talked about a rock being there and had seen everything everywhere all at once.
(11:09):
And so was picturing them with googly eyes, but didn't mention the googly eyes.
But that was part of their internal thing. Interesting, yeah.
So it's also the things we choose to share and the things we don't.
Yeah, it was a really transformative kind of thing. I mean, it would be interesting
to do again in different contexts.
And I think even just with RPGs and stuff, I mean,
(11:31):
this is what I want from a gaming group is always the willingness to try new
things and to know that whatever I try is going to be an additive thing.
And that the same thing is true of other people, that we can find something
that it is us co-creating a story rather than competing for it.
(11:53):
To me, that sounds like Amy Banks's book talking about hyper-individuation versus
collaboration and what we encourage in our culture and what we discourage.
Finding a way to let go of our ideas about other people's perspectives and replace
(12:15):
it with a curiosity about other people's perspectives.
My first job post-social work school was in community mental health,
but I had a little sign on my death that was basically saying,
other people aren't thinking about you.
They're too busy trying to get by.
Because I would go into a session and I'd be really worried about like whether
I was saying the right thing or whether I looked like a therapist or acted like a therapist,
(12:41):
you know, and letting go of that and thinking, okay, this person is just here
because they need something and I'm here to like help figure out what that is
and we're going to work together, made space for more play and exploration.
Sort of setting aside my ideas about what someone else might be thinking.
In our first group, we talked about this, too, about when you were talking about the kids in D.C.
(13:05):
And like different social rules and different contexts and how do you explain
to kids when it's appropriate to make a joke and when it's not appropriate to make a joke.
Our ideas of what other people think of us tend to be so much worse and extreme
than the other person's views actually are.
(13:26):
And even if they're not, how helpful is it to think Kevin's really thinking
that I'm stupid right now?
Unless you and I are going to have like a supported conversation and a healthy
conflict about it like next time. Spoilers.
When I was in the airport Friday night, somebody who worked for Southwest had
(13:46):
come up to me as I was standing around 26 rolling suitcases while the kids were all trying to find food.
And he was like, you all should check your bags. Like you're all not going to get on there.
It's going to be really hard for us to load you. And I'm having this conversation with him.
I was over at the counter with a couple of kids checking some bags in and I
turned around and there's a gentleman that I thought was the same gentleman
(14:09):
that had talked to me before about doing this.
Yeah. And I'm like, oh, see, we're doing what you told us to do.
And he was like, yeah, I'm not that person. And I looked at this dude next to me. I'm like,
oh my god i do that all the time it's so embarrassing
and the student just so matter of factly was well if
you do it all the time it shouldn't be embarrassing because it's just who you are and
(14:30):
like it's like oh he was so confident
and like you are who you are and i'm like you're 13 telling
me this and how beautiful is that that i shouldn't be
embarrassed by who i am yeah just be
who you are yeah advice from a 13 year old
well that was actually one of our themes in a way of of
the first discussion that we had where we were just reflecting
(14:51):
on the prompt and one of the things that we talked
about was the barriers to like joining in
for for some it was like the positioning of
people to you know if there's an opening to go in physically that you can do
that but one of us in the group it's very comfortable just saying that looks
like fun can i join in that and for me and for others i'm sure that wasn't there's
(15:15):
there's like a built-in in expectation that what I'm going to do is interrupt the other person,
that I'm going to be a disruption and therefore I shouldn't do it.
So I have to not just look for physical openings to go in, but there also has
to be like clear mental lanes as well,
that it's an inviting thing in order for me to go and interact because that
(15:36):
monologue is constantly going on is.
You know, what, what am I about to do wrong in there?
You have to believe that you'll be welcomed yeah
with some amount of curiosity yeah were there
any insights that came out of the first discussion for you
that that resonated the idea of a volume was was put out there not even we weren't
(15:58):
even talking about it like as a metaphor it wasn't until right after that that
we got that but like when you've got behavior or like i think of this is like
a visualization technique to use with chronic pain too.
Like you think, okay, it feels like this, this is where it is. Can it get bigger?
Can I make it worse? Can I like really dig into it?
(16:20):
Can I make it not, not by actually physically like digging your thumb into it,
but like just by thinking.
And then if you can do that, can I make it smaller?
And this sort of going up and down or later even Anna Maria was was sharing
ideas about like doing it like my favorite was a drunk five-year-old and just.
(16:42):
Trying different ways of doing something so that you could try to do it badly. I liked those ideas.
Yeah. And then feeling what it was like after doing it badly to kind of turn it back down to do it.
How does it feel now once you've gone all the way volume up? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
One of the big insights was with what Daniel said about the code switching.
(17:05):
So we've been talking up to that point. And then even in the last episode about
the importance of metaphor for connecting people and that people need to understand,
you know, some part of it or be able to learn it to be able to join,
but it's also a protective thing as well.
So if you have this inside joke, it's your community that you trust that knows what's up with that.
(17:26):
And that code-encoded language is a really important safety mechanism for lots of groups.
And so it's not that metaphors are the cure for all things and to bring everybody
in, that inclusiveness is not always wanted or safe.
If you want to be intentional about the communication as well,
and if the safety of the space, which is the thing that we've been talking about
(17:49):
is, you know, that's how we can feel comfortable playing and putting ourselves
out there and making mistakes is if it's safe.
And so inclusiveness in the sense that you're only including certain people
that you feel safe around. Yeah.
Well, one idea that came up for us also was the idea of trying to expand the area of safety.
(18:10):
Like, so if you start off with, I just feel safe with my very close people.
And then like, what would it take to create a classroom that feels safe?
Or what would it take to create like a cadre that feels safe?
Yeah, when we talk about boundaries, which we haven't really delved into as
a specific concept for the cadre, other than to mention that it is literally a metaphor.
(18:34):
The metaphor isn't a wall that's protecting you and keeping everybody outside that is in danger.
It's about how far you feel safe to go. and
your ability to meet somebody in a
space that you are both feeling comfortable being
able to go that far means that those boundaries really have to create sort of
a venn diagram and it's the space in between and if your boundaries and their
(18:57):
boundaries can't meet then the challenge is how how do you expand them or how
do they expand theirs in order to have that that cross crossing the threshold,
it'd be great if all the boundaries were all inclusive of everything, but they're not.
Yeah, that's where I went when he said that was like, well, there shouldn't
have to be boundaries for code switching.
(19:19):
Like, you should just be able to be who you are, but that's not where our society is.
Holding that next to the 13-year-old telling you to be who you are,
like you have a certain amount of privilege in the ability to be who you are.
Yeah. Not everyone does.
And not every space is safe.
(19:39):
And our relational images, which
was one of the ideas, could cause us to think that a space isn't safe.
It could skew our assessment of the space. least.
We also talked a bit about the influence that culture has on how you just respond to things.
So the generational themes came up even just in our popcorn questions.
(20:02):
But when we dived into that a little bit in our group, my experience was post-civil
rights movement where there was a lot of cultural fatigue and there was a lot
of cultural optimism at the same time.
So what I was raised in was that optimism that you know this is a new era things
have been quote-quote fixed.
(20:24):
And we can now move on to the next bit of
progress so my expectation was that that's what was going to happen and my reality
was that that things just fell further apart that there's a lot of things that
are actually more advanced when i was a kid than they are right now the way
that i view things is generally with a very optimistic lens, even now.
(20:47):
And it's because that was the formative time I was raised.
And if you go back a generation before, the end result was appreciating incremental
change and being able to take some solace in that.
And so there's sort of an expectation that if we can just do a little bit better,
then that's, and you look at the policies that the leaders of that generation,
(21:08):
that that's sort of what everything is based on and whether it works or not.
And then the most recent generations have had nothing but crisis,
crisis, crisis, crisis.
So it's economic crisis, it's climate crisis, it's school shootings that their
entire life is just looking at a future that seems pretty bleak.
And as a result, the way that they view things is going to be very different
(21:31):
than everybody else. So the same metaphor, this can have completely different
meanings for any of those groups just because of the general culture.
And then we can get into the different slices and demographics and you can see
how everybody can be viewing things,
you know, very differently, even if it's the same words, the same understanding
(21:51):
of it, their reaction to it, the emotions of that metaphor are going to be different.
Yes. Yeah, that's really powerful to think about.
If it's evoking different feelings, then how do we maintain connection.
Curiosity, I guess, tends to be the answer, being curious about it. And generous, too.
(22:11):
So it's the responsibility, not just of somebody to learn how to be in this culture.
It's about the culture being welcoming to everybody who has different experiences.
And so curiosity ties directly to being able to be wrong, because you can't
be curious about something if you have to be right. Or if you know the answer.
(22:33):
Well, yeah, if you think you know the answer, you're not going to be curious.
Any final thoughts about metaphors, sharing the experience, the session we just
had? I enjoyed it. Me too.
Two thumbs up. Two thumbs up. Four. What's that mean?
It's a metaphor, Kevin. Figure it out. Understand my meaning of my metaphor, please.
(22:54):
I'll work on being curious. Next month, actually, it's technically two months.
It's May 5th is our next cadre session.
It'll be the fourth one. one and this one is on healthy conflict
you know so we have games
that are made to have conflict have competition
we have the people playing the games that bring in their baggage and things
(23:16):
so our conversation is going to be about exploring what that looks like in a
safe place right and and i'm going to add in the context of relational cultural
theory and play like all of those things things together.
So anticipate playful approaches rather than like a very serious communication seminar.
(23:38):
That helps make my tummy go away.
See you in May. Thanks, Meg. Thanks.
Music.
This episode of Cadre is a production of the Bloomington Center for Connection,
(24:00):
an organization using relational cultural theory to promote social change through connection.
This conversation between Meg Klendening, Kevin McKeece, and Amy McKeece,
LCSW, took place on March 24th, 2024 in Chicago, Illinois, and was edited for
this podcast by by Kevin McKees.
Theme music lovingly sampled from Positive Thinking and Serpentine by Vlad.
(24:23):
Music.
Music.
(00:20):
So what do you think? We just got done with a session where we,
a third session for the relational cadre on sharing the experience and focusing
on metaphors and symbols and communication.
What were some of the things that stood out for you? I'm excited to hear yours
because you ended saying you were feeling really energized and other people
(00:42):
in your group said inspired.
We've been trying to do something rather than just have a second discussion in the second half.
And And this whole topic was challenging for me because it's important.
And I think through our discussions last week and through what we did today,
I mean, I understand what metaphors are.
It was fun to look into memes and the history and what their importance are.
(01:04):
But, you know, using them intentionally can be somewhat difficult. cult.
And so what our exercise was, was to basically have a conversation that was
all metaphor in the spirit of Darmok and Jalad and Star Trek.
I was with two people who, Thax and Jackie, who were very willing to say things
(01:28):
and to be the first to say something and were very good listeners and were contributing.
And we, I think we, we just had a.
An experience where we all sort of felt like we were making this thing together.
And it wasn't necessarily what I had envisioned going into this,
but it was very poetic and Thax likened it to sort of a thing that humans must
(01:54):
have done years and years and years and centuries and generations ago,
just basically making observations and relating things.
And so we started with the prompt of I am, we had a seal, we had a butterfly, and we had the stars.
And then we tried to put that together in what our group is.
(02:15):
And I forget exactly what it was, but it was something like the nighttime forest.
The facts iterated on that a little bit more, but then it was just waiting for
people to say something and then trying to incorporate it.
And it went on for, you know, it was probably the only last 10 minutes that
we started talking about it. it.
And so I, it just was a really nice experience and it was challenging,
(02:38):
not just to, to do the starting, which I didn't have to do.
Cause I was trying to just get into the breakout room, but you know, when does it end?
And there were a couple of times when I thought there was enough silence there
that, uh, and the themes in my mind were sort of concluding,
but then somebody would add something else.
And so it, it kept going and it was this sense of power and being able to shape
(03:02):
this, like everything that I said mattered,
but at the same time, completely allowing it to go wherever it was going to go.
So I was powerless in that I didn't know.
I was filled with curiosity and uncertainty about what this was going to be
and what people were going to contribute and very dependent on that.
(03:22):
But in the end, it was just this really connective kind of experience for me.
And it was also draining. I mean, I don't know whether I could have done that
for a half hour, but for the time that we spent on it, it was really nice to,
it was a good experience.
And that's why I'm energized is that I, it was surprising to me because I didn't
(03:44):
think it would work quite like that. It wouldn't feel that good to me, but it did.
I'm glad we laughed a lot. I heard you.
I think when you said like, it wasn't what I envisioned going into it.
And I think part of this is because of listening to you guys ahead of time.
Sometimes as an adult, the hardest thing is to go into something not knowing,
(04:08):
not having it planned just perfectly.
But however, sometimes the experience is better when you don't have everything
set out just perfectly. It's an interesting balance trying to figure that out in something like this.
What's the balance between preparation
and freedom so that people can each individually feel their own power?
(04:34):
Adults allowing yourselves to be curious can allow for the space to play and
then can allow for, as you explore that curiosity, to give yourself more of
a sense of power in the good way.
Like all things that I like to plan, I don't necessarily have to know how it's
going to go, but I want there to be a structure, some scaffolding that I can at least anticipate.
(04:57):
And for me, that was giving somebody a task to do. They needed to communicate
this thing and they had to do it through metaphor.
And that worked for me in the planning part of it because it was concrete and
I thought that would help people into it.
But what was great about this wasn't the thing that we ended up with.
(05:17):
It wasn't the product of the story.
And it wasn't whether we were doing it right or not. That was something that
had to be let go right away.
It was the connection between people that it was a space that all three of us,
I think, felt we were meaningful in doing this thing together.
And it was something that we could take it in the direction that we want and
(05:38):
we would respond to it, that we would include it in the story in our thinking.
But everybody talked about their mental model of what we were creating being different.
That's likely true. Interesting. My picture of the valley that I had or where
there was river. We didn't even mention water for a while.
So there were things like that that I had to put in because there was a seal involved.
(06:00):
And I thought, you know. You wanted the seal to have some water.
I wanted the seal to have some place to go. Yeah. Yeah.
And that's a good lesson is it doesn't matter what the plan is.
Is it's just you know being around people
and sharing but also feeling like it's a space that we can create and is is
really critical and i and i guess i needed that too yeah one of the things about
(06:24):
rct that i that i want for people just entering into it to really get is how reassuring it can be.
Going into the therapy room when you've got RCT and you think what matters is
making this connection.
(06:44):
Like that's the foundation. And then you're not as worried about,
do I have the right worksheet or diagnosis or whatever you're worried about
that day, sort of letting go of the controlling it.
Now you don't have to have the answer. You just need to be able to connect.
It and when when you're talking kevin you're talking about
(07:05):
not going in not trying to persuade like
no one in your group was like oh no it has to be my story
i want it this way one of the things we talked about in our group was the metaphor
of not being seen and not being understood and i was holding that while hearing
you say everything i said mattered yeah very different there are three Three groups.
(07:28):
I know what we did in ours, and I heard you speak, but you didn't really,
you sort of spoke around what the mechanism was that you ended up doing to share
the metaphors. And I don't know what the third group actually did.
We just kept throwing out metaphors. Like we started with, you know, my life is a...
(07:49):
And we had circus and cat toy, cat toy, dog park, dog park.
Our group is a tall oak tree walking into a daycare with a universal translator on.
And then we got to where like we couldn't communicate something.
And one of us said, oh, Megan, your universal translator is broken.
(08:13):
And then and we were laughing a lot of the nonsensical aspect of it.
Another thing we said was our group is a Saturday Night Live skit.
And then right after the cadre ended while we were waiting for your computer
to charge, we listened to or watched the Saturday Night Live skit that Megan was referencing,
(08:36):
which is Gilda Radner and Candace Bergen.
And part of what makes that funny is Gilda Radner's character not understanding
metaphors and saying things like, I'm thirsty as a horse.
That's a really good Gilda Radner laugh.
(08:58):
And you're not too bright, are you? Like, you know, that kind of thing.
Yeah, it felt like our group had to return several times. And I think we did
successfully return to like, how do you connect while you're trying new things?
And how do you create space to make mistakes and get it wrong?
(09:20):
And I think with the type of play that we were doing here today,
you have to be able to get it wrong.
Again, if we went in and the most important thing is playing the game correctly
or understanding the game.
As opposed to just being around people who can help you understand the game,
(09:42):
or are you just going to enjoy being around?
I mean, the games that we play aren't the purpose. It's the thing that gathers people together.
What this activity did was there were really no real rules and we just sort of had to figure it out.
And the only way you could figure it out is to play it together.
(10:02):
Other. I also was really intrigued because part of what I was picturing wasn't
just this imagery, the literal things of a seal and a butterfly and stars,
but also that it was Jackie and it was Thax and it was me.
And so when the stars did something with the presence of the seal,
the butterfly, I was thinking of Kevin interacting with Thax and Jackie.
(10:26):
And that literally, that literally it was a metaphor.
That the metaphor was the layer of communication. So I was really trying to
channel my inner Darmok and try to put that through, but I was trying to think
of it in terms of the people who were in there with me.
And that was just an interesting layer. And I don't know if we didn't talk about
(10:48):
it, but I'd be interested to know if they were doing the same thing.
There was some hesitation of what to bring into the story and what not to,
So Jackie had seen something with the eclipses as Oreo cookies and introduced that.
And later Thax, we talked about a rock being there and had seen everything everywhere all at once.
(11:09):
And so was picturing them with googly eyes, but didn't mention the googly eyes.
But that was part of their internal thing. Interesting, yeah.
So it's also the things we choose to share and the things we don't.
Yeah, it was a really transformative kind of thing. I mean, it would be interesting
to do again in different contexts.
And I think even just with RPGs and stuff, I mean,
(11:31):
this is what I want from a gaming group is always the willingness to try new
things and to know that whatever I try is going to be an additive thing.
And that the same thing is true of other people, that we can find something
that it is us co-creating a story rather than competing for it.
(11:53):
To me, that sounds like Amy Banks's book talking about hyper-individuation versus
collaboration and what we encourage in our culture and what we discourage.
Finding a way to let go of our ideas about other people's perspectives and replace
(12:15):
it with a curiosity about other people's perspectives.
My first job post-social work school was in community mental health,
but I had a little sign on my death that was basically saying,
other people aren't thinking about you.
They're too busy trying to get by.
Because I would go into a session and I'd be really worried about like whether
I was saying the right thing or whether I looked like a therapist or acted like a therapist,
(12:41):
you know, and letting go of that and thinking, okay, this person is just here
because they need something and I'm here to like help figure out what that is
and we're going to work together, made space for more play and exploration.
Sort of setting aside my ideas about what someone else might be thinking.
In our first group, we talked about this, too, about when you were talking about the kids in D.C.
(13:05):
And like different social rules and different contexts and how do you explain
to kids when it's appropriate to make a joke and when it's not appropriate to make a joke.
Our ideas of what other people think of us tend to be so much worse and extreme
than the other person's views actually are.
(13:26):
And even if they're not, how helpful is it to think Kevin's really thinking
that I'm stupid right now?
Unless you and I are going to have like a supported conversation and a healthy
conflict about it like next time. Spoilers.
When I was in the airport Friday night, somebody who worked for Southwest had
(13:46):
come up to me as I was standing around 26 rolling suitcases while the kids were all trying to find food.
And he was like, you all should check your bags. Like you're all not going to get on there.
It's going to be really hard for us to load you. And I'm having this conversation with him.
I was over at the counter with a couple of kids checking some bags in and I
turned around and there's a gentleman that I thought was the same gentleman
(14:09):
that had talked to me before about doing this.
Yeah. And I'm like, oh, see, we're doing what you told us to do.
And he was like, yeah, I'm not that person. And I looked at this dude next to me. I'm like,
oh my god i do that all the time it's so embarrassing
and the student just so matter of factly was well if
you do it all the time it shouldn't be embarrassing because it's just who you are and
(14:30):
like it's like oh he was so confident
and like you are who you are and i'm like you're 13 telling
me this and how beautiful is that that i shouldn't be
embarrassed by who i am yeah just be
who you are yeah advice from a 13 year old
well that was actually one of our themes in a way of of
the first discussion that we had where we were just reflecting
(14:51):
on the prompt and one of the things that we talked
about was the barriers to like joining in
for for some it was like the positioning of
people to you know if there's an opening to go in physically that you can do
that but one of us in the group it's very comfortable just saying that looks
like fun can i join in that and for me and for others i'm sure that wasn't there's
(15:15):
there's like a built-in in expectation that what I'm going to do is interrupt the other person,
that I'm going to be a disruption and therefore I shouldn't do it.
So I have to not just look for physical openings to go in, but there also has
to be like clear mental lanes as well,
that it's an inviting thing in order for me to go and interact because that
(15:36):
monologue is constantly going on is.
You know, what, what am I about to do wrong in there?
You have to believe that you'll be welcomed yeah
with some amount of curiosity yeah were there
any insights that came out of the first discussion for you
that that resonated the idea of a volume was was put out there not even we weren't
(15:58):
even talking about it like as a metaphor it wasn't until right after that that
we got that but like when you've got behavior or like i think of this is like
a visualization technique to use with chronic pain too.
Like you think, okay, it feels like this, this is where it is. Can it get bigger?
Can I make it worse? Can I like really dig into it?
(16:20):
Can I make it not, not by actually physically like digging your thumb into it,
but like just by thinking.
And then if you can do that, can I make it smaller?
And this sort of going up and down or later even Anna Maria was was sharing
ideas about like doing it like my favorite was a drunk five-year-old and just.
(16:42):
Trying different ways of doing something so that you could try to do it badly. I liked those ideas.
Yeah. And then feeling what it was like after doing it badly to kind of turn it back down to do it.
How does it feel now once you've gone all the way volume up? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
One of the big insights was with what Daniel said about the code switching.
(17:05):
So we've been talking up to that point. And then even in the last episode about
the importance of metaphor for connecting people and that people need to understand,
you know, some part of it or be able to learn it to be able to join,
but it's also a protective thing as well.
So if you have this inside joke, it's your community that you trust that knows what's up with that.
(17:26):
And that code-encoded language is a really important safety mechanism for lots of groups.
And so it's not that metaphors are the cure for all things and to bring everybody
in, that inclusiveness is not always wanted or safe.
If you want to be intentional about the communication as well,
and if the safety of the space, which is the thing that we've been talking about
(17:49):
is, you know, that's how we can feel comfortable playing and putting ourselves
out there and making mistakes is if it's safe.
And so inclusiveness in the sense that you're only including certain people
that you feel safe around. Yeah.
Well, one idea that came up for us also was the idea of trying to expand the area of safety.
(18:10):
Like, so if you start off with, I just feel safe with my very close people.
And then like, what would it take to create a classroom that feels safe?
Or what would it take to create like a cadre that feels safe?
Yeah, when we talk about boundaries, which we haven't really delved into as
a specific concept for the cadre, other than to mention that it is literally a metaphor.
(18:34):
The metaphor isn't a wall that's protecting you and keeping everybody outside that is in danger.
It's about how far you feel safe to go. and
your ability to meet somebody in a
space that you are both feeling comfortable being
able to go that far means that those boundaries really have to create sort of
a venn diagram and it's the space in between and if your boundaries and their
(18:57):
boundaries can't meet then the challenge is how how do you expand them or how
do they expand theirs in order to have that that cross crossing the threshold,
it'd be great if all the boundaries were all inclusive of everything, but they're not.
Yeah, that's where I went when he said that was like, well, there shouldn't
have to be boundaries for code switching.
(19:19):
Like, you should just be able to be who you are, but that's not where our society is.
Holding that next to the 13-year-old telling you to be who you are,
like you have a certain amount of privilege in the ability to be who you are.
Yeah. Not everyone does.
And not every space is safe.
(19:39):
And our relational images, which
was one of the ideas, could cause us to think that a space isn't safe.
It could skew our assessment of the space. least.
We also talked a bit about the influence that culture has on how you just respond to things.
So the generational themes came up even just in our popcorn questions.
(20:02):
But when we dived into that a little bit in our group, my experience was post-civil
rights movement where there was a lot of cultural fatigue and there was a lot
of cultural optimism at the same time.
So what I was raised in was that optimism that you know this is a new era things
have been quote-quote fixed.
(20:24):
And we can now move on to the next bit of
progress so my expectation was that that's what was going to happen and my reality
was that that things just fell further apart that there's a lot of things that
are actually more advanced when i was a kid than they are right now the way
that i view things is generally with a very optimistic lens, even now.
(20:47):
And it's because that was the formative time I was raised.
And if you go back a generation before, the end result was appreciating incremental
change and being able to take some solace in that.
And so there's sort of an expectation that if we can just do a little bit better,
then that's, and you look at the policies that the leaders of that generation,
(21:08):
that that's sort of what everything is based on and whether it works or not.
And then the most recent generations have had nothing but crisis,
crisis, crisis, crisis.
So it's economic crisis, it's climate crisis, it's school shootings that their
entire life is just looking at a future that seems pretty bleak.
And as a result, the way that they view things is going to be very different
(21:31):
than everybody else. So the same metaphor, this can have completely different
meanings for any of those groups just because of the general culture.
And then we can get into the different slices and demographics and you can see
how everybody can be viewing things,
you know, very differently, even if it's the same words, the same understanding
(21:51):
of it, their reaction to it, the emotions of that metaphor are going to be different.
Yes. Yeah, that's really powerful to think about.
If it's evoking different feelings, then how do we maintain connection.
Curiosity, I guess, tends to be the answer, being curious about it. And generous, too.
(22:11):
So it's the responsibility, not just of somebody to learn how to be in this culture.
It's about the culture being welcoming to everybody who has different experiences.
And so curiosity ties directly to being able to be wrong, because you can't
be curious about something if you have to be right. Or if you know the answer.
(22:33):
Well, yeah, if you think you know the answer, you're not going to be curious.
Any final thoughts about metaphors, sharing the experience, the session we just
had? I enjoyed it. Me too.
Two thumbs up. Two thumbs up. Four. What's that mean?
It's a metaphor, Kevin. Figure it out. Understand my meaning of my metaphor, please.
(22:54):
I'll work on being curious. Next month, actually, it's technically two months.
It's May 5th is our next cadre session.
It'll be the fourth one. one and this one is on healthy conflict
you know so we have games
that are made to have conflict have competition
we have the people playing the games that bring in their baggage and things
(23:16):
so our conversation is going to be about exploring what that looks like in a
safe place right and and i'm going to add in the context of relational cultural
theory and play like all of those things things together.
So anticipate playful approaches rather than like a very serious communication seminar.
(23:38):
That helps make my tummy go away.
See you in May. Thanks, Meg. Thanks.
Music.
This episode of Cadre is a production of the Bloomington Center for Connection,
(24:00):
an organization using relational cultural theory to promote social change through connection.
This conversation between Meg Klendening, Kevin McKeece, and Amy McKeece,
LCSW, took place on March 24th, 2024 in Chicago, Illinois, and was edited for
this podcast by by Kevin McKees.
Theme music lovingly sampled from Positive Thinking and Serpentine by Vlad.
(24:23):
Music.
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