June 1, 2024 • 22 mins
In this conversation, Amy and Kevin explore the benefits of remembering and recalling connecting moments in past play, by intentionally cultivating a repository of positive relational moments.
Some resources mentioned in this episode:
"Dave's Mad Monkey Tea Party" (video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MVA6Spl7PQ
"Wired to Connect" (book) by Amy Banks (2016) https://www.amazon.com/Wired-Connect-Surprising-Between-Relationships/dp/1101983213/
"Frederick" (book) by Leo Lionni (1967) https://www.amazon.com/Frederick-Leo-Lionni/dp/0394810406
Cadre is a podcast that explores concepts from Relational-Cultural Theory (RCT), a psychological theory that started with Jean Baker Miller, and grew through collaboration and connection in places like the Stone Center at Wellesley College. RCT is built on the idea that people grow through and towards relationships, and that those relationships shape and are shaped by the cultures we co-create. Culture often creates challenges to connection through inequity and hierarchies.
Each year, the Bloomington Center for Connection selects a guiding theme for monthly small-group discussions of RCT concepts.
Amy Makice is the founder of Bloomington Center for Connection and a licensed psychotherapist based in Bloomington, Indiana. Amy offers individual therapy and parent support for people in the Bloomington area, workshops for parents and caregivers, and training on Relational Cultural theory.
Kevin Makice is a user experience designer and enthusiastic gamer who has been steeping in RCT for three decades.
Theme music created by Vlad Gluschenko ("Positive Thinking" and "Serpantine") and downloaded from Soundcloud through Creative Commons Attribution 3.0.
https://soundcloud.com/vgl9/positive-thinking https://soundcloud.com/vgl9/serpantine https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/deed.en
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kevin (00:00):
This is Cadre, and we're co creating memories.
(00:20):
This is about co creating memories.
And so for me, what always came to mind when we were talking
about this was the games I had as kids, where the gameplay was so
epic, or so, uh, there was something that happened, or the way to
Amy (00:38):
You have to tell
that story about the time you won Risk, and all you
had was a tiny country that I've never heard of.
Kevin (00:45):
That's exactly it.
Well, it's Japan.
Amy (00:47):
Well, I thought maybe it was.
Kevin (00:49):
But
down to one army and then a pack of cards.
And they would go all the way around.
Amy (00:54):
It is impressive, yes.
Kevin (00:56):
Impressive
But it's also something that, uh, Uh, stays with me and it
wasn't just the fact that I was victorious, it was like the
whole process of going on the brink of being out of the game
and, and, and then having it sweep the other way and all of
the little battles along the way that, uh, that had to happen.
And, you know, Risk is, at least the old Risk
(01:17):
is not a cooperative game by any stretch.
So, it's competitive, but it's, it's that kind of thing that
really, uh, It sits with me, and I think of other times where
we'd like playing in forts and, uh, construction sites and, um,
Amy (01:31):
Yeah, we totally played in construction
sites, like real construction sites.
Kevin (01:37):
Yeah, because they looked like,
uh, they had big concrete walls and
Amy (01:42):
Like a blank slate.
Kevin (01:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and those are the kinds of things.
So when we're co creating memories, we're,
we're doing that work as we are playing.
And what that has the effect of doing is, you
know, desire for more could actually be one of our
cards as well, is that you want to do it again.
And the, the memories that you have of that are
so strong and so positive that, you know, it,
(02:07):
it allows you to sustain doing other things.
Amy (02:10):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I was just thinking of how we replay memories.
I don't know, I was talking to someone about being bored today and
feeling like maybe they didn't really have a gift for daydreaming.
I was remembering that I would sit in a class where,
like, if we got caught doodling, we would get in trouble.
(02:33):
So we had to, I had to, like, have the
paying attention face and be replaying.
Mostly my horseback riding teacher, but like someone
that I really admired and thought was cool and like
a moment that we spent together doing something.
And
Kevin (02:49):
When I went to see Star Wars, you know, obviously never
seen anything like that in my life and my life was maybe age nine.
But what I remember when the credits were rolling and we
were leaving is like having just got to the end of Star Wars.
This shouldn't be a spoiler after.
50 years or whatever.
You know, when they blow up the Death Star and you
(03:12):
had to go down and fly and everything, you know,
you sort of felt the movements and everything.
And so that's the way I left the theater was a little bit.
Amy (03:20):
You did your little hands?
Kevin (03:21):
I was flying my X wing out the little corridor.
Amy (03:25):
We
talked about.
Co creating memories and the idea of difference between reenacting
where you're sort of caught in this pattern and you don't really
understand what's happening, but you're would be like sort of negative
relational images at the wheel and you're just sort of caught in them.
(03:46):
Um, and then.
Uh, re experiencing, which is, you may be remembering and
sharing something more negative, but it's in a supported
environment and you're aware of what's happening.
You're not like, being driven.
And then, releasing and, Reimagining, like letting, letting
(04:06):
it go and then coming up with a new, a new way going forward.
Then you and I talked about the two cards for
today would be the positive relational moment.
And the, I think the best resource for that is Wired to Connect.
Amy Banks's book.
It's right over there.
I always look to where it is and then point.
(04:27):
And Zest.
I, I, I want to say I've always liked Zest.
Zest as a word.
I think some, sometimes it takes getting used to
as a concept, but I think it, it carries energy
to like a, a more specific, uh, delightful spot.
Kevin (04:44):
Yeah, let's start with, with that.
Cause that, that, that is how I've come to, to know it as well.
It's, it's like an enjoyable energy.
It isn't just that you're feeling all
pumped up and ready to go take on the world.
It's that you're, you've got a smile on your face and that.
Uh, it's a lingering happiness or lingering
connection that, that goes with you with that energy.
(05:05):
That word, uh, just the way you say it, um,
has sort of a certain happy power to it.
Amy (05:11):
Mm hmm.
Kevin (05:12):
Um, but I think of the, like, playing in those construction
sites and, and the kinds of adventures that we had together.
Amy (05:21):
Yeah, when I think of playing in a
construction set, I, Or a house under construction.
I think of my sister mostly.
I don't know.
It's possible that I just bossed us around for all of the
narrative.
Kevin (05:34):
She gave a different feeling
Amy (05:35):
and, and she just went along with it.
Or if, uh, if we co-created those memories or if I imposed them.
Um, but we had some fairly elaborate pretend
games that went along with wherever we were.
I was definitely a rock star,
. Kevin: In the construction site?
(05:55):
Yeah, I was, uh, Cindy.
The single mom rock star.
And Meg was my little kid.
Kevin (06:04):
The adventures that we have with like D& D and
stuff, my favorite moments are the ones that aren't.
You know, scripted in the sense that you
wouldn't be able to open a book and find them.
We made, for one of our players a few years
back, a deck of cards that had critical hits and
critical failures are rolling a 20 or rolling a 1.
So it's a really good thing or a really bad thing.
(06:26):
And so we have a deck of cards that just has these elaborate.
Kinds of benefits or, or challenges that are imposed on you
and they've all, we've used those, you know, very frequently,
but we've just recently, uh, in some of the campaigns started
using the other three decks, which was strange encounters,
which mostly were characters from our other adventures.
Amy (06:47):
Oh, fun.
Kevin (06:49):
And, uh, you know, having very minimal.
Like ACs or stats about them and a very simple goal and so the idea
is that you know, the the GM could uh look at it and then Use that
to you know to help with something where there's a very simple task.
It's just sort of a distraction but there's
(07:10):
also uh valuable items and random items.
And the random items are like a book of really bad poetry.
Or we had something in our last, uh, couple of sessions
where the random thing was a book of I Hate You.
And the book of I Hate You was a, uh, teen prince
who hated his father and, uh, had all these notes
(07:33):
for how to build the coolest gazebo in all the land.
And we built the coolest gazebo in all the land because we had found
this book and, uh, we need to, you know, help restore this community.
So, and when that happens and everybody is like putting in their,
their two cents, it's always like this yes and kind of thing.
And it builds.
(07:53):
And, um, I, I just, even now I think of those moments and those
sort of unexpected things that we, We allow ourselves to do
together and we just sort of accept and, uh, that actually becomes
the foundation of, you know, our next set of cards in the future.
That's zest.
(08:13):
And, you know, the five good things are all sort of
intertwined, but when I think of describing zest, zest
and desire for more are like really tightly bonded in my
mind because it's the, it's the happiness part of zest.
the energy to allow you to do more, but also that desire that
(08:35):
those are really sort of two halves of the same thing for
me is that, um, it's hard to imagine one without the other.
Amy (08:42):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Kevin (08:45):
And, and it's not just the people that you
play with that you come back to play with those
people again because you had this experience.
It's also saying, can I have it with this different set of people?
So, you know, game nights are sort of built around that.
It's that you, you, you like playing games
and you want to play games with other people.
And so you invite brand new people and that's
(09:07):
how you sort of get to know each other.
Our game monikers that we played.
Almost exclusively on a trip to see my dad a year ago
and, um, even now as we're playing this I can, the, uh, We
Amy (09:24):
have a shared experience around how to act out certain things.
Kevin (09:29):
That is part of the game now as well.
Amy (09:34):
Or like a clue will be mom.
Because everybody is thinking about
what ridiculous thing just happened.
Yeah.
I think part of what you're describing there is,
like, looking at the memories as our identity shaping.
Like, how did we become who we are?
You know, for better or for worse, in our
(09:55):
stories that we created in our relationships.
Play allows us to connect, uh, without as much self consciousness.
And maybe get to see parts of yourself
that you didn't even know were there.
I was thinking of our kids and sort of the
way we talk about what we're enjoying as well.
(10:16):
You know, like, if I heard one of the kids say something
admiring about the other kid, I would say, Oh, did
you, did you notice that while we were playing that
game, Kevin said, Oh, I'm so glad you explained that.
Or like, you know, whatever my thinking
was, what you highlight is what gets filed.
Kevin (10:36):
Yeah, I mean, even my Great Risk game, I don't really
remember anything that happened before almost dying in Japan.
I remember collecting cards and hoping that I would
get a chance to use them and not expecting it.
So that was, you know, for me, uh, an unexpected delight.
But I don't, the things that came before that part of
(10:57):
it, uh, didn't, didn't stand out enough to be part of
my narrative and I'm sure we had a good time because,
you know, we played those, those games a lot together.
We, you know, was at an age where we had maybe six board games
and you just played them and played them and played them.
Uh, but, you know, it was with my best friend and, you know,
that was, it was great to be able to, it was just like one
(11:20):
of many experiences that we had playing games together.
And.
That one really strong memory is the thing that
gives me, uh, access to all the other times, even
if the, the moments aren't necessarily as, as clear.
Amy (11:35):
That story of you almost being completely out of the game
and then having a little something in your pocket and coming back.
That's really great.
to conquer the entire world, um, is also like a piece of
your memories and your narrative about who you are now.
(11:57):
I'm sure there are days that it's harder to access than others.
But like the idea that you're someone who
comes back, you're someone who keeps trying.
Kevin (12:06):
And I think I would also be somebody who would have enjoyed
that game just as much if that last roll had not gone my way.
For me, it isn't as exciting to say I, I, you know, valiantly
fought down to the end and then somebody else won, but, um
Amy (12:23):
I kept trying.
Kevin (12:25):
But it It didn't have a sense of dread or, um,
you know, everything about that march against me was
just as enjoyable as the one where I proved victorious.
So I just, I just remember us both
being sort of happy for those moments
together.
Amy (12:44):
Yeah.
Because you're fun.
Kevin (12:48):
And actually this brings us to the other part.
So the zest is that that happy energy that delightful energy
that you get a positive relational moment is your ability to
through the memory to be able to access it as if you were there.
So I'm smiling more now because I'm remembering those things
(13:09):
and these Moments of playing with, with my friends and, uh,
laughing at my dad, uh, when he's giving clues for a game
that all of these things are stuff that, um, I can think about
and whatever worries I have, whatever, uh, other things are
(13:30):
going on, it's a way to sort of ground myself in that moment.
Uh, and, and my body feels that and, and changes as a, as a result.
So having those, uh, a whole bunch of those moments
to serve at your disposal can be very useful.
Amy (13:49):
Part of the positive relational moments
has to do with noticing times that feel good.
You know, like one of the things that I frequently do with
clients is try to create a list of things that don't suck.
Um, because you know, when you're feeling really, really
down, like saying, Oh, let's be grateful is not necessarily
(14:11):
super useful, but being able to say, what's not awful.
Let's just start there.
And as you notice them being able to.
To name and share, you know, like the co creation piece helps you
practice connection, even if you're not with the people, like right
now, I would imagine that if we had some fancy survey that we could
(14:36):
have given you before and after, This, that unobtrusively find out
how close you're feeling to that best friend of yours, and beforehand,
and now, like, I was, you know, just watching you talk about it.
I could see the, the parts of Kevin that I see in that friend, and
like, how you interact with each other when you do get to be together.
Kevin (14:59):
I like the idea of it being sort of intentional.
So I've had office environments where they really like gratitude
and the culture of gratitude, and gratitude is a practice.
So you have to do things to be able to notice the stuff,
and the more you do it, the easier it is to notice.
There's a tool that they have now.
(15:20):
That allows us to go in and just thank people or notice
people and, um, I try to use it, even though largely the
group around me doesn't, um, because it's one more thing
to do, but what I have noticed in, um, Doing those things
is that it's easier for me to articulate what they are.
(15:42):
So it isn't just this General sense of you know, oh thanks Um,
it's being able to say specifically or more specifically as I work
on it What it is that's about in this book Positive relational
moments the same thing if you can catch yourself in the moment.
Amy (15:58):
Oh, yeah,
Kevin (15:59):
I think all the stuff and noticing the way the room smells
or or you know, the light or The temperature or whatever it is
about it all of those senses can be Part of that that moment in
that story that you can take with you and then when you think
about it later You get all of those same kinds of sensations again.
(16:20):
I'd always Think, too, of, um, your,
uh, Leo Leoni, uh, little mouse that
Amy (16:26):
Oh, yes!
Kevin (16:27):
That's what, what's, this is
Amy (16:28):
Yes, no, it's Frederick.
Kevin (16:29):
Frederick.
Amy (16:29):
Frederick
the mouse.
Mm hmm.
Kevin (16:31):
Um, of saving up all of the, the colors
and, and all of the things to, to be able to, to
share that in a moment when it, when it's needed.
Amy (16:40):
Mm
hmm.
Kevin (16:41):
Um, you know, and that's sort of the way
I, I like to think of it, and it's hard to do.
Amy (16:46):
It, it is, and it's, it's super common.
Mm hmm.
For people to say, I don't have any, or I can't think of any, um, and
I have experimented with all sorts of ways to try to make it, like,
less pressure and easier, and it just, sometimes those memories feel
so special, you don't want to put too much weight on them, because
you want to preserve them, and I think there's also, like, the central
(17:10):
relational paradox at play, where, like, these moments mean so much
to you, that, you know, There's a fear that, like, if you were too
authentic with them or let them show too much that maybe they would
turn out not to be real or, uh, not as important as you thought.
It's challenging.
(17:31):
And does.
I think it requires practice.
Like, literally practicing noticing, Oh, right now I am
with my family and we are laughing while Playing a very
silly game or right now, my kid came over and flopped
down right next to me and put her head on my shoulder.
(17:54):
And that felt good, whatever the different moments are
being able to notice them so that then you can have
them in your library of positive relational moments.
But then also the generative part of this is that as you practice.
It's, it's a part of my morning routine to do, uh, visualization
(18:17):
that involves positive relational moments and also sharing them.
Part of, like, really inhabiting your positive relational
moments is priming yourself to be able to accept them.
Through, like, mental play, really, you're
practicing experiencing being loved.
(18:39):
You're practicing feeling worthy.
The more you practice that, then the easier it is.
It, the, a great example is that last, the, the very special Bluey
episode, um, which if you haven't watched, just go ahead and watch it.
Kevin (18:58):
It's not 50 years old.
Amy (19:00):
Uh, and it's, yeah, I'm not going to spoil it, but,
um, it is based on a Buddhist story that involves like,
Oh, maybe, maybe not like, you know, trying to Look at
your sad moment, and then like, maybe it made room for
something else to happen that you didn't even know.
Um, so there was that piece.
But then the other thing is in our staff meeting today,
(19:20):
we were talking about different ways of being playful
and connecting and trying to get to a light hearted
place, which sometimes, you know, you need to do.
Um, and one of the ideas was to Like whatever you're
talking about, but to do it in different genres, you know,
I might tell you about my day, but I'm going to do it in
Kevin (19:42):
Film noir.
Amy (19:43):
Yeah.
Right.
Very good.
Because I wasn't coming up with any
specific genres except for like romance.
Um, so there's, there's that.
The other thing that I thought of earlier when you were talking and
it was imagining you flying your star Wars craft down the hallway,
I was thinking of that show dream on that we enjoyed so much.
(20:05):
A million years ago, something would happen and he would suddenly
be remembering old the TV shows that he watched when he was younger
and how that like sort of shaped how we make sense of the world.
Kevin (20:17):
Yeah, and TV for me is has a lot of those happy moments too.
So it's not just being able to picture turning to my
dad or my friends, you know, and Like, knowing that they
were there experiencing that, it's also the stories and
the world inside of those shows were really meaningful.
(20:38):
There were a lot of things that made me laugh a lot.
I think of David Letterman and his monkeys.
And my dad and I, you know, staying up, uh, even though my dad
normally goes to sleep, but wanted to watch it with me, and we
laughed so hard that we woke up my mom, uh, a floor up ahead, but,
you know, it was worth it because it was so hilarious, and, uh,
Amy (21:01):
And
those monkeys, like, became a part
of, like, how we talk to each other.
And, and, yeah.
He's doing it right now, but like, uh, they, they mean a
thing and I don't even have the right words for what the
monkey face means, but it definitely means a thing that we do.
Kevin (21:19):
So we've got a cadre coming up on session in just a few days.
Amy (21:24):
Yep.
Kevin (21:25):
Uh, from one to three, it's, uh, in person.
It's also a hybrid, so, uh, you can get online as well.
Amy (21:31):
Yeah.
It's exciting.
Kevin (21:33):
Yeah.
Amy (21:33):
Yeah.
You're missing his monkey face.
It's unfortunate.
Maybe you can take a picture and that can be the cover for this.
Kevin (21:57):
This episode of Cadre is a production of the Bloomington
Center for Connection, an organization using relational
cultural theory to promote social change through connection.
This conversation between Kevin Makice and Amy Makice,
LCSW, took place on May 28, 2024 in Bloomington, Indiana.
It was edited for this podcast by Kevin Makice.
Theme music lovingly sampled from Positive
(22:19):
Thinking and Serpantine by Vlad Glushenko.
Follow Bloomington Center for Connection
on Facebook and other social media
platforms.
This is Cadre, and we're co creating memories.
(00:20):
This is about co creating memories.
And so for me, what always came to mind when we were talking
about this was the games I had as kids, where the gameplay was so
epic, or so, uh, there was something that happened, or the way to
Amy (00:38):
You have to tell
that story about the time you won Risk, and all you
had was a tiny country that I've never heard of.
Kevin (00:45):
That's exactly it.
Well, it's Japan.
Amy (00:47):
Well, I thought maybe it was.
Kevin (00:49):
But
down to one army and then a pack of cards.
And they would go all the way around.
Amy (00:54):
It is impressive, yes.
Kevin (00:56):
Impressive
But it's also something that, uh, Uh, stays with me and it
wasn't just the fact that I was victorious, it was like the
whole process of going on the brink of being out of the game
and, and, and then having it sweep the other way and all of
the little battles along the way that, uh, that had to happen.
And, you know, Risk is, at least the old Risk
(01:17):
is not a cooperative game by any stretch.
So, it's competitive, but it's, it's that kind of thing that
really, uh, It sits with me, and I think of other times where
we'd like playing in forts and, uh, construction sites and, um,
Amy (01:31):
Yeah, we totally played in construction
sites, like real construction sites.
Kevin (01:37):
Yeah, because they looked like,
uh, they had big concrete walls and
Amy (01:42):
Like a blank slate.
Kevin (01:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and those are the kinds of things.
So when we're co creating memories, we're,
we're doing that work as we are playing.
And what that has the effect of doing is, you
know, desire for more could actually be one of our
cards as well, is that you want to do it again.
And the, the memories that you have of that are
so strong and so positive that, you know, it,
(02:07):
it allows you to sustain doing other things.
Amy (02:10):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I was just thinking of how we replay memories.
I don't know, I was talking to someone about being bored today and
feeling like maybe they didn't really have a gift for daydreaming.
I was remembering that I would sit in a class where,
like, if we got caught doodling, we would get in trouble.
(02:33):
So we had to, I had to, like, have the
paying attention face and be replaying.
Mostly my horseback riding teacher, but like someone
that I really admired and thought was cool and like
a moment that we spent together doing something.
And
Kevin (02:49):
When I went to see Star Wars, you know, obviously never
seen anything like that in my life and my life was maybe age nine.
But what I remember when the credits were rolling and we
were leaving is like having just got to the end of Star Wars.
This shouldn't be a spoiler after.
50 years or whatever.
You know, when they blow up the Death Star and you
(03:12):
had to go down and fly and everything, you know,
you sort of felt the movements and everything.
And so that's the way I left the theater was a little bit.
Amy (03:20):
You did your little hands?
Kevin (03:21):
I was flying my X wing out the little corridor.
Amy (03:25):
We
talked about.
Co creating memories and the idea of difference between reenacting
where you're sort of caught in this pattern and you don't really
understand what's happening, but you're would be like sort of negative
relational images at the wheel and you're just sort of caught in them.
(03:46):
Um, and then.
Uh, re experiencing, which is, you may be remembering and
sharing something more negative, but it's in a supported
environment and you're aware of what's happening.
You're not like, being driven.
And then, releasing and, Reimagining, like letting, letting
(04:06):
it go and then coming up with a new, a new way going forward.
Then you and I talked about the two cards for
today would be the positive relational moment.
And the, I think the best resource for that is Wired to Connect.
Amy Banks's book.
It's right over there.
I always look to where it is and then point.
(04:27):
And Zest.
I, I, I want to say I've always liked Zest.
Zest as a word.
I think some, sometimes it takes getting used to
as a concept, but I think it, it carries energy
to like a, a more specific, uh, delightful spot.
Kevin (04:44):
Yeah, let's start with, with that.
Cause that, that, that is how I've come to, to know it as well.
It's, it's like an enjoyable energy.
It isn't just that you're feeling all
pumped up and ready to go take on the world.
It's that you're, you've got a smile on your face and that.
Uh, it's a lingering happiness or lingering
connection that, that goes with you with that energy.
(05:05):
That word, uh, just the way you say it, um,
has sort of a certain happy power to it.
Amy (05:11):
Mm hmm.
Kevin (05:12):
Um, but I think of the, like, playing in those construction
sites and, and the kinds of adventures that we had together.
Amy (05:21):
Yeah, when I think of playing in a
construction set, I, Or a house under construction.
I think of my sister mostly.
I don't know.
It's possible that I just bossed us around for all of the
narrative.
Kevin (05:34):
She gave a different feeling
Amy (05:35):
and, and she just went along with it.
Or if, uh, if we co-created those memories or if I imposed them.
Um, but we had some fairly elaborate pretend
games that went along with wherever we were.
I was definitely a rock star,
. Kevin: In the construction site?
(05:55):
Yeah, I was, uh, Cindy.
The single mom rock star.
And Meg was my little kid.
Kevin (06:04):
The adventures that we have with like D& D and
stuff, my favorite moments are the ones that aren't.
You know, scripted in the sense that you
wouldn't be able to open a book and find them.
We made, for one of our players a few years
back, a deck of cards that had critical hits and
critical failures are rolling a 20 or rolling a 1.
So it's a really good thing or a really bad thing.
(06:26):
And so we have a deck of cards that just has these elaborate.
Kinds of benefits or, or challenges that are imposed on you
and they've all, we've used those, you know, very frequently,
but we've just recently, uh, in some of the campaigns started
using the other three decks, which was strange encounters,
which mostly were characters from our other adventures.
Amy (06:47):
Oh, fun.
Kevin (06:49):
And, uh, you know, having very minimal.
Like ACs or stats about them and a very simple goal and so the idea
is that you know, the the GM could uh look at it and then Use that
to you know to help with something where there's a very simple task.
It's just sort of a distraction but there's
(07:10):
also uh valuable items and random items.
And the random items are like a book of really bad poetry.
Or we had something in our last, uh, couple of sessions
where the random thing was a book of I Hate You.
And the book of I Hate You was a, uh, teen prince
who hated his father and, uh, had all these notes
(07:33):
for how to build the coolest gazebo in all the land.
And we built the coolest gazebo in all the land because we had found
this book and, uh, we need to, you know, help restore this community.
So, and when that happens and everybody is like putting in their,
their two cents, it's always like this yes and kind of thing.
And it builds.
(07:53):
And, um, I, I just, even now I think of those moments and those
sort of unexpected things that we, We allow ourselves to do
together and we just sort of accept and, uh, that actually becomes
the foundation of, you know, our next set of cards in the future.
That's zest.
(08:13):
And, you know, the five good things are all sort of
intertwined, but when I think of describing zest, zest
and desire for more are like really tightly bonded in my
mind because it's the, it's the happiness part of zest.
the energy to allow you to do more, but also that desire that
(08:35):
those are really sort of two halves of the same thing for
me is that, um, it's hard to imagine one without the other.
Amy (08:42):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Kevin (08:45):
And, and it's not just the people that you
play with that you come back to play with those
people again because you had this experience.
It's also saying, can I have it with this different set of people?
So, you know, game nights are sort of built around that.
It's that you, you, you like playing games
and you want to play games with other people.
And so you invite brand new people and that's
(09:07):
how you sort of get to know each other.
Our game monikers that we played.
Almost exclusively on a trip to see my dad a year ago
and, um, even now as we're playing this I can, the, uh, We
Amy (09:24):
have a shared experience around how to act out certain things.
Kevin (09:29):
That is part of the game now as well.
Amy (09:34):
Or like a clue will be mom.
Because everybody is thinking about
what ridiculous thing just happened.
Yeah.
I think part of what you're describing there is,
like, looking at the memories as our identity shaping.
Like, how did we become who we are?
You know, for better or for worse, in our
(09:55):
stories that we created in our relationships.
Play allows us to connect, uh, without as much self consciousness.
And maybe get to see parts of yourself
that you didn't even know were there.
I was thinking of our kids and sort of the
way we talk about what we're enjoying as well.
(10:16):
You know, like, if I heard one of the kids say something
admiring about the other kid, I would say, Oh, did
you, did you notice that while we were playing that
game, Kevin said, Oh, I'm so glad you explained that.
Or like, you know, whatever my thinking
was, what you highlight is what gets filed.
Kevin (10:36):
Yeah, I mean, even my Great Risk game, I don't really
remember anything that happened before almost dying in Japan.
I remember collecting cards and hoping that I would
get a chance to use them and not expecting it.
So that was, you know, for me, uh, an unexpected delight.
But I don't, the things that came before that part of
(10:57):
it, uh, didn't, didn't stand out enough to be part of
my narrative and I'm sure we had a good time because,
you know, we played those, those games a lot together.
We, you know, was at an age where we had maybe six board games
and you just played them and played them and played them.
Uh, but, you know, it was with my best friend and, you know,
that was, it was great to be able to, it was just like one
(11:20):
of many experiences that we had playing games together.
And.
That one really strong memory is the thing that
gives me, uh, access to all the other times, even
if the, the moments aren't necessarily as, as clear.
Amy (11:35):
That story of you almost being completely out of the game
and then having a little something in your pocket and coming back.
That's really great.
to conquer the entire world, um, is also like a piece of
your memories and your narrative about who you are now.
(11:57):
I'm sure there are days that it's harder to access than others.
But like the idea that you're someone who
comes back, you're someone who keeps trying.
Kevin (12:06):
And I think I would also be somebody who would have enjoyed
that game just as much if that last roll had not gone my way.
For me, it isn't as exciting to say I, I, you know, valiantly
fought down to the end and then somebody else won, but, um
Amy (12:23):
I kept trying.
Kevin (12:25):
But it It didn't have a sense of dread or, um,
you know, everything about that march against me was
just as enjoyable as the one where I proved victorious.
So I just, I just remember us both
being sort of happy for those moments
together.
Amy (12:44):
Yeah.
Because you're fun.
Kevin (12:48):
And actually this brings us to the other part.
So the zest is that that happy energy that delightful energy
that you get a positive relational moment is your ability to
through the memory to be able to access it as if you were there.
So I'm smiling more now because I'm remembering those things
(13:09):
and these Moments of playing with, with my friends and, uh,
laughing at my dad, uh, when he's giving clues for a game
that all of these things are stuff that, um, I can think about
and whatever worries I have, whatever, uh, other things are
(13:30):
going on, it's a way to sort of ground myself in that moment.
Uh, and, and my body feels that and, and changes as a, as a result.
So having those, uh, a whole bunch of those moments
to serve at your disposal can be very useful.
Amy (13:49):
Part of the positive relational moments
has to do with noticing times that feel good.
You know, like one of the things that I frequently do with
clients is try to create a list of things that don't suck.
Um, because you know, when you're feeling really, really
down, like saying, Oh, let's be grateful is not necessarily
(14:11):
super useful, but being able to say, what's not awful.
Let's just start there.
And as you notice them being able to.
To name and share, you know, like the co creation piece helps you
practice connection, even if you're not with the people, like right
now, I would imagine that if we had some fancy survey that we could
(14:36):
have given you before and after, This, that unobtrusively find out
how close you're feeling to that best friend of yours, and beforehand,
and now, like, I was, you know, just watching you talk about it.
I could see the, the parts of Kevin that I see in that friend, and
like, how you interact with each other when you do get to be together.
Kevin (14:59):
I like the idea of it being sort of intentional.
So I've had office environments where they really like gratitude
and the culture of gratitude, and gratitude is a practice.
So you have to do things to be able to notice the stuff,
and the more you do it, the easier it is to notice.
There's a tool that they have now.
(15:20):
That allows us to go in and just thank people or notice
people and, um, I try to use it, even though largely the
group around me doesn't, um, because it's one more thing
to do, but what I have noticed in, um, Doing those things
is that it's easier for me to articulate what they are.
(15:42):
So it isn't just this General sense of you know, oh thanks Um,
it's being able to say specifically or more specifically as I work
on it What it is that's about in this book Positive relational
moments the same thing if you can catch yourself in the moment.
Amy (15:58):
Oh, yeah,
Kevin (15:59):
I think all the stuff and noticing the way the room smells
or or you know, the light or The temperature or whatever it is
about it all of those senses can be Part of that that moment in
that story that you can take with you and then when you think
about it later You get all of those same kinds of sensations again.
(16:20):
I'd always Think, too, of, um, your,
uh, Leo Leoni, uh, little mouse that
Amy (16:26):
Oh, yes!
Kevin (16:27):
That's what, what's, this is
Amy (16:28):
Yes, no, it's Frederick.
Kevin (16:29):
Frederick.
Amy (16:29):
Frederick
the mouse.
Mm hmm.
Kevin (16:31):
Um, of saving up all of the, the colors
and, and all of the things to, to be able to, to
share that in a moment when it, when it's needed.
Amy (16:40):
Mm
hmm.
Kevin (16:41):
Um, you know, and that's sort of the way
I, I like to think of it, and it's hard to do.
Amy (16:46):
It, it is, and it's, it's super common.
Mm hmm.
For people to say, I don't have any, or I can't think of any, um, and
I have experimented with all sorts of ways to try to make it, like,
less pressure and easier, and it just, sometimes those memories feel
so special, you don't want to put too much weight on them, because
you want to preserve them, and I think there's also, like, the central
(17:10):
relational paradox at play, where, like, these moments mean so much
to you, that, you know, There's a fear that, like, if you were too
authentic with them or let them show too much that maybe they would
turn out not to be real or, uh, not as important as you thought.
It's challenging.
(17:31):
And does.
I think it requires practice.
Like, literally practicing noticing, Oh, right now I am
with my family and we are laughing while Playing a very
silly game or right now, my kid came over and flopped
down right next to me and put her head on my shoulder.
(17:54):
And that felt good, whatever the different moments are
being able to notice them so that then you can have
them in your library of positive relational moments.
But then also the generative part of this is that as you practice.
It's, it's a part of my morning routine to do, uh, visualization
(18:17):
that involves positive relational moments and also sharing them.
Part of, like, really inhabiting your positive relational
moments is priming yourself to be able to accept them.
Through, like, mental play, really, you're
practicing experiencing being loved.
(18:39):
You're practicing feeling worthy.
The more you practice that, then the easier it is.
It, the, a great example is that last, the, the very special Bluey
episode, um, which if you haven't watched, just go ahead and watch it.
Kevin (18:58):
It's not 50 years old.
Amy (19:00):
Uh, and it's, yeah, I'm not going to spoil it, but,
um, it is based on a Buddhist story that involves like,
Oh, maybe, maybe not like, you know, trying to Look at
your sad moment, and then like, maybe it made room for
something else to happen that you didn't even know.
Um, so there was that piece.
But then the other thing is in our staff meeting today,
(19:20):
we were talking about different ways of being playful
and connecting and trying to get to a light hearted
place, which sometimes, you know, you need to do.
Um, and one of the ideas was to Like whatever you're
talking about, but to do it in different genres, you know,
I might tell you about my day, but I'm going to do it in
Kevin (19:42):
Film noir.
Amy (19:43):
Yeah.
Right.
Very good.
Because I wasn't coming up with any
specific genres except for like romance.
Um, so there's, there's that.
The other thing that I thought of earlier when you were talking and
it was imagining you flying your star Wars craft down the hallway,
I was thinking of that show dream on that we enjoyed so much.
(20:05):
A million years ago, something would happen and he would suddenly
be remembering old the TV shows that he watched when he was younger
and how that like sort of shaped how we make sense of the world.
Kevin (20:17):
Yeah, and TV for me is has a lot of those happy moments too.
So it's not just being able to picture turning to my
dad or my friends, you know, and Like, knowing that they
were there experiencing that, it's also the stories and
the world inside of those shows were really meaningful.
(20:38):
There were a lot of things that made me laugh a lot.
I think of David Letterman and his monkeys.
And my dad and I, you know, staying up, uh, even though my dad
normally goes to sleep, but wanted to watch it with me, and we
laughed so hard that we woke up my mom, uh, a floor up ahead, but,
you know, it was worth it because it was so hilarious, and, uh,
Amy (21:01):
And
those monkeys, like, became a part
of, like, how we talk to each other.
And, and, yeah.
He's doing it right now, but like, uh, they, they mean a
thing and I don't even have the right words for what the
monkey face means, but it definitely means a thing that we do.
Kevin (21:19):
So we've got a cadre coming up on session in just a few days.
Amy (21:24):
Yep.
Kevin (21:25):
Uh, from one to three, it's, uh, in person.
It's also a hybrid, so, uh, you can get online as well.
Amy (21:31):
Yeah.
It's exciting.
Kevin (21:33):
Yeah.
Amy (21:33):
Yeah.
You're missing his monkey face.
It's unfortunate.
Maybe you can take a picture and that can be the cover for this.
Kevin (21:57):
This episode of Cadre is a production of the Bloomington
Center for Connection, an organization using relational
cultural theory to promote social change through connection.
This conversation between Kevin Makice and Amy Makice,
LCSW, took place on May 28, 2024 in Bloomington, Indiana.
It was edited for this podcast by Kevin Makice.
Theme music lovingly sampled from Positive
(22:19):
Thinking and Serpantine by Vlad Glushenko.
Follow Bloomington Center for Connection
on Facebook and other social media
platforms.
Popular Podcasts
True Crime Tonight
If you eat, sleep, and breathe true crime, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT is serving up your nightly fix. Five nights a week, KT STUDIOS & iHEART RADIO invite listeners to pull up a seat for an unfiltered look at the biggest cases making headlines, celebrity scandals, and the trials everyone is watching. With a mix of expert analysis, hot takes, and listener call-ins, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT goes beyond the headlines to uncover the twists, turns, and unanswered questions that keep us all obsessed—because, at TRUE CRIME TONIGHT, there’s a seat for everyone. Whether breaking down crime scene forensics, scrutinizing serial killers, or debating the most binge-worthy true crime docs, True Crime Tonight is the fresh, fast-paced, and slightly addictive home for true crime lovers.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.