December 2, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode of the Care Intelligence Revolution podcast, the host welcomes Carolyn Tipper, an executive coach with significant real-world leadership experience in both global corporations and nonprofit organisations. Carolyn shares her journey from a finance and retail background to social care, highlighting the pivotal moments that led her to find joy and purpose in the sector. She discusses the importance of planning, creating capacity, and the power of a high-quality 'no' to help care leaders move from a firefighting mode to a leading mode. Carolyn also touches on her work with the Open Doc policy library and gives practical advice on transforming leadership styles to create high-performing teams. Listeners are encouraged to rethink their approach to time management and to consider adopting a coaching leadership style.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tanya (00:00):
welcome back everybody to Care Intelligence a Revolution podcast.
(00:04):
Today I am joined by someone whoembodies what it means to lead
with both purpose and practicality.
Carolyn Tipper.
Carolyn is an executive coach with realworld leadership experience, having
led large teams across both globalcorporations and nonprofit organizations.
(00:25):
Her mission is simple.
But powerful to help organizationsachieve remarkable success while
enabling individuals to findjoy in their work every day.
What sets Carolyn apart is that she's beenin the trenches herself, navigating the
same challenges her clients face today.
(00:46):
She brings that lived experienceinto every coaching sessions.
Her approach is outcome focused andgrounded in reality and deeply human.
The kind of coaching that's notonly transforms performance,
but also renews purpose.
Additionally, Carolyn is also oneof the early experts on open doc
(01:07):
the Health Connect policy librarythat is fee for everyone to access.
She's sharing her expertisein governance, hr, and more.
Carolyn, it's such a pleasure to have you.
Welcome to the show.
Hi, good morning.
Good morning.
So, uh, I mean, we're filming at myhouse, so you found your way here,
luckily, uh, but the motorway was shut.
(01:27):
That was a bit of a nuisance, wasn't
Carolyn Tipper (01:29):
it?
It was, and not too bad.
I had about 10 minutes.
I had a quite an interesting detourthrough a village, which I dunno
what the village was, um, because ithad taken me around some other way.
Yeah.
Um, but yeah, it was a nice littleinsight to some of the villages
in this beautiful location.
We had a chat before
Tanya (01:44):
and you told me the story of how you got into social care.
Can you take our audiencethrough your story again?
Like why social care?
Carolyn Tipper (01:53):
Yeah.
My, my original background was infinance when I started, um, my working
career, I did about 18 years in financeand it taught me a hell of a lot.
It taught me about disciplineand delivery and, mm-hmm.
All those things that gave me reallygood grounding and I didn't really
know anything different until I left.
Um, and then I went into retail whichwas a real eye eyeopener because
(02:17):
finance is very traditional, really.
So a lot about disciplines, A lot about.
Delivery very fast paced.
And then when I went into retail,slightly different, a little bit more
dynamic, a little bit more maverick.
Tanya (02:32):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (02:32):
Met a lot of really, really different characters and I
realized that actually I was probablymore suited to that, that a little bit
more dynamic and maverick um, environment.
Um, and I did, then I did about 15 yearsin retail across b and q and boots.
And then I took Volunt redundancyand my main purpose was to find
(02:53):
something that was different.
Yeah.
So that was the word that I kept saying topeople, I want something different, but I
didn't know what different really meant.
And then I got a call fromsomebody who said to me, I'm not
sure you'd be interested in this.
It's really different.
I was like, yep, I'm interested.
And it was in social care.
Now my family.
I've very much worked in the health andsocial care environment, all the life.
(03:14):
My mom, my sisters my partner.
Tanya (03:17):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (03:17):
And so I went along, did the interview, um,
got the job as HR director.
But one of the specificthings I think stuck with me.
I was in probably one of my first seniorleadership meetings and we talked about.
Why we wanted to do somethingparticular at that time, and we're
going round and round in circles.
(03:37):
Yeah.
And suddenly somebody said somethingthat resonate with our purpose.
So our purpose as a social careorganization was to help people
live the life they choose.
Tanya (03:48):
Mm.
Carolyn Tipper (03:48):
And somebody said at that point, is this gonna help the people
we support live the life they choose?
Tanya (03:54):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (03:55):
And.
If the answer was yes, right, we'regonna do it, we're gonna crack on.
If the answer was no, whatare we doing it for then?
Tanya (04:01):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (04:02):
And that was so different to my past in retail and finance.
The question was, most of the time,is this gonna put the right amount
of profit on the bottom line?
Yeah.
And so I loved that, that,that way of thinking.
And it absolutely.
Fitted with, with where I came from.
Tanya (04:19):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (04:19):
So that was it.
I was, I was sold on social care.
Yeah.
And I spent the next five years helping togrow and the organization that I was in.
Tanya (04:27):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (04:27):
In social care, Uhhuh.
Tanya (04:29):
I find there's a commonality between anyone who kind of changed their
career tructure and got into social care.
I had my episode recording withKevin Humphrey's, CEO of Oakland Care
group yesterday, and his story isnot quite the same, but very similar.
He came from corporate management andhe said he got tired of making money for
(04:51):
the people who already had enough money,and that's why he got into social care.
And when he got into social care.
The conversations around him were allabout how do we make people's lives
better rather than how much money,how much more money can we make?
Yeah.
And I think that's kind of the, uh,commonality that I find, you know, across
all of you who work in social care.
(05:13):
And I think for you and Kevinand all of the experts who got
involved in Open Doc so earlier on,to share your knowledge as well.
And that shows how, howmuch you care about.
Actual impact on people's livesthrough anything that you can do.
And policy and governanceis one of them, right?
Carolyn Tipper (05:33):
Absolutely.
Tanya (05:34):
Yeah.
Uh, so I think this episode todayis to try and draw your experie uh,
expertise on policies, HR, governance,and also leadership coaching, and.
We're gonna go quite nicheinto policy and governance.
'cause you've worked with a lotof leaders and this seems like
one of the main challenges.
(05:56):
And it's also thankless work as wellbecause it's behind the scene as hidden.
Most patients, residents andclients that don't see the work.
Uh, have gone into policy andgovernance and making sure that care
is delivered safely and compliantly.
So I think since we started theproject on Open Doc, every day we
(06:20):
talk to different care managers andnurses, and what we hear is that.
Policy and governance can be well,uh, have been really admin heavy.
They constantly firefighting andthey're constantly having that mental
load of not having enough policies orall the right policies in place and
not having up to date policies or eventailored policy to their businesses.
(06:47):
And that weigh on their mind From yourexperience, um, why do you so many care
leaders end up like in the firefightingkind of position or situation?
Carolyn Tipper (07:00):
Mostly through planning or lack of planning, if you are not
thinking beyond the moment that youare in, whether that be the day that
you are in, the week that you are in,then you are always at the mercy of
what's going on for you that time.
But when you actuallyplan and you think about.
The next week, the next month, thetarget that you're trying to get to,
(07:22):
the thing that you're trying to deliver,the difference that you are trying to
make, then you are more in control of it.
And the bit that I find people do,a lot of the time, they feel like
they've got so much on their plate.
They haven't got time to plan,they haven't got time to think.
They
haven't got time to prepare.
And that means you're workingoff, off the cuff all the time.
So the lack of planning is the bigthing that I find keeps people in that
(07:45):
sort of crisis place that they're inand they sort of get used to do it.
And the people who sometimes say they'regood at it, I'm good at working depression
and good at working in a crisis.
Um, and I, but wouldn't it beso much better if you weren't,
if
you actually worked in a verycontrolled, calm, plum considered way?
So definitely lack of planning is, is onethat I find is a common, a common issue.
Tanya (08:08):
To that lack of planning in the first place.
What are the root causes of that?
Carolyn Tipper (08:13):
So often people think that.
One time, I call it capacity.
Tanya (08:18):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (08:18):
So capacity is something you create.
You can't really create time.
We've all got the same 24 hoursin a day, 60 minutes in an hour.
But actually you can create capacityand that's a slightly different thing.
So that lack of being able tocreate capacity is an issue.
Plus also people find that theycreate a plan and then it gets.
(08:39):
Disturbed, knocked off track.
So they all sometimesthink what's the point?
Tanya (08:44):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (08:44):
Whereas actually creating a plan means at least if only half of
those things happen when they shoulddo, and the other half you replan,
then
you're still in control.
Yeah.
So it really is a bit of beliefand then some skill as well.
Tanya (08:57):
Okay.
So I, I think I hear a lot about the lackof time and capacity from care leaders.
And I think that's kind of a commonthing across the sector, uh, is that
everyone social care, so tam poor butthe lack of skills and the lack of
like belief as well, it's somethingthat you add to the mix for them.
(09:18):
You give them that, you equip leaderswith that through your coaching session.
Right,
Carolyn Tipper (09:23):
absolutely.
So I've had leaders that I've worked withwho started with me and said, I haven't
got time to do the things that, the basicstuff, nevermind the leadership stuff.
Certainly haven't got time to do anythingthat's outside of my remit of my role.
And then within short space time, so I'veworked with people for six or 12 months.
So within that six months I've got 'emto a place where not only have they said.
(09:48):
Now the things are taking careof themselves 'cause I've got
my team working how they should.
I know that I'm leading the majorityof the time and I'm looking at
projects that I can take on that aregoing to increase their development
and make a bigger difference to the,you know, to the wider organization.
Tanya (10:04):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (10:05):
So it doesn't take a long time to do that.
Six months is more than enough time.
Sometimes people work with mefor 12 months 'cause they've got
bigger stuff that they want to do.
But yeah, it's, it.
It's teaching them howto understand themselves.
Coaching them on how to understand others.
Yeah.
And then helping them gainsome capacity creation skills.
(10:25):
And once you've done all thosethree things, that transformation
happens quite easily.
Tanya (10:29):
I think what you, like you said, what you add is through the.
Kind of the skill coaching and alsothe mindset coaching and giving care
leaders a framework so that theycan transition from the position of
constantly fight, fighting and workingin, you know, crisis mode and chaos mode.
(10:51):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, into more of a planned wellplanned, well prepared kind of
mindset on, I think for health and it,we're kind of trying to do the same.
Through the means of technology.
So what we're doing with kind of systemsdata and being able to provide care
leaders with intelligence is that wegive care leaders with real time data
(11:14):
and insights and intelligence to helpthem have that oversight so that they
can always prepare for what comes next,so that they never find themselves,
well, rarely will find themselvesin you know, a crisis situation.
However it is, it is a challengebecause right now what we see in the
data is that every 29 minutes someonestops caring to start recording care.
(11:37):
And on average, the same information getsrepeated five times across five different
systems or different systems sometimesmultiple times within one system.
And that makes leaders feel very stuckand in this kind of administrative.
Cycle.
What we see is that most systems arebuilt for audits and not for people,
(12:01):
and they're not designed to give leadersclarity and they just create more noise.
Mm-hmm.
Is that from coaching, you know,working with different care leaders?
Is that what you see as well?
And do they often talk about the systemsthat they have in place and how much.
That either help or hinder them.
Carolyn Tipper (12:19):
Yeah.
Systems like that you've spoken aboutor perhaps even other processes, whether
it be IT or frameworks or even culture.
Really, sometimes some of thesethings can, that should be, should be
designed to assist us can hinder us.
Tanya (12:37):
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (12:37):
And particularly when you talked about things like
policies and procedures, theyshould be things that guide us.
Tanya (12:44):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (12:44):
Um.
Sometimes people see them as thingsthat restrict you, and that's because
they get wrapped up in perhaps havingto follow something and do it right.
It's like a
process as well.
I'm more concentrating on havingto do this thing right, than
actually doing the right thing.
Yeah.
In this situation.
Whereas there are times I've said topeople in the past, yes, the policy or the
(13:09):
procedure is this, but we need to do this
because
this is the right thing to do.
And I often got people who used tocome to me in the past and they'd
say, can you tell me what policywe've got on such and such thing?
And I could, and my team couldhave gone, yes, here's the policy,
and left
them to go away and follow it.
(13:31):
But I always said the question is.
Actually, what is it?
Just tell me what's going on.
What is it that you want the policy for?
Tanya (13:38):
Mm-hmm.
Tell
Carolyn Tipper (13:38):
me about the situation and when they tell you about the
situation, then the policy mightnot necessarily be the things that
you need at that point in time.
You need to think about theperson and the situation.
So the policies and processesfor me are there as a guide.
Tanya (13:56):
Yeah.
And.
Carolyn Tipper (13:57):
That fits into them being flexible, being simple, being easy to
understand, or if you're gonna take apolicy away and spend two days having
to read it and understand it and thendecide how you tick off following it,
then it's not really been the right.
Support and the right thing.
So you are right.
They sometimes become a hindrancebecause of the things like them being
(14:22):
too long, too complicated, too rigid.
Mm-hmm.
Something that is actuallymuch more flexible, gives you
the guidance that you need.
Is for me the right thing,
Tanya (14:34):
speaking of policies and, and procedures and following
policies and procedures.
You are one of the early expertson the free policy library that
we currently building with thecommunity of experts on open dock.
I think what we're trying to do is getcare leaders and also the frontline teams
out of that firefighting mode and givingthem that skill in order to navigate
(15:00):
policies and procedures, uh, with.
More of a clinical and also moreof a operational framework behind
them, so an understanding, a more ofa clear understanding behind them.
Then you, you've also worked with early,like early startup care businesses, and
(15:20):
I think one of the main barriers to entryinto social care is that it's the policies
and procedures and having all of them,all of the right ones in place in order
to go through that CQC registration.
It's a very time consumingand costly process.
That's one of the main barrier.
And then say they've gonethrough that process.
(15:43):
Now all of the policies andprocedures, they just sit in a dusty
cabinet or folder, somewhere inthe shared drive and they just sit
there waiting to go out of date.
And then like you said, theother element is that they
might not be easy to understand.
If you, if your staff have to spend daysreading multiple page documents in order
(16:05):
to understand how to do their job, thenthey're not really serving their purpose.
So
Carolyn Tipper (16:09):
I guess there's a couple of things as to how they, they come about.
So you, you mentioned that eitherthey can be very costly, you might
go and hire a law firm mm-hmm.
An employment law firm to helpyou put them together so that you
adhering to the employment law sideof it or the regulation side of it.
You might go and enlist policiesthat are being used somewhere else,
(16:32):
particularly if you've been workingwith a local, a local council
before you might use their policies.
Tanya (16:39):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (16:40):
Or you might try and create them yourself.
All of those things, can bedifficult costly and time consuming.
Tanya (16:46):
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (16:47):
So if you've got something like yourself that actually
comes along and says, here's thebest of what's, you know, what's out
there that's already been looked atand already been put together for.
No cost or even little cost.
Tanya (17:00):
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (17:00):
That's like a bit of a wow moment, really.
Because the problems that I've hadwith them in the past is people,
um, applying them in a way thatdoesn't necessarily benefit.
The people that you support?
Tanya (17:15):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (17:15):
Or even benefit the organization.
And that means if you stood backand went, actually, what is the
common sense thing to do when we'reapplying this policy and procedure?
They may come out actually withsomething that's much more useful
and is gonna resolve the situation.
Tanya (17:34):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (17:34):
Rather than, yeah.
Following the letter or something.
So I always used to say, what's gonnaget us to where we wanna get to here?
Tanya (17:41):
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (17:41):
And how is the policy gonna help us do that?
So for the sake of how they've been usedin the past the not great way of them
being used is being, here's something to.
Fix what we're doing as opposedto here's something that's
gonna enable what we want to do.
Tanya (18:02):
Yeah,
Carolyn Tipper (18:03):
and that's the thing that I've always said with HR full
stop, whether it be the people sideof it or it be the policy side of it.
Mm-hmm.
How do we enable doing whatit is that we want to do?
How do we enable us to be able togo and support more people and help
them live the life they choose?
If that's your.
Purpose or some of thepurpose that you've got.
And your policies and proceduresneed to be able to do that.
(18:25):
They need to be able to enableyou to do what you want to do.
Not fix it or create barriers.
And if the policies that you're talkingabout can do that is the biggest benefit
Tanya (18:38):
with free policies that will create a lot of benefits for
especially smaller care providers.
Um.
I think give, giving them that bit ofa lifeline for them easier, making the
process smoother for them to enter.
So social care will bea game changer for them.
I wanted to kind of dive deep di divea bit deeper into how, um, care leaders
(19:03):
can move from the firefighter in modeto leading mode, because I think that's
one of the benefit that you offer.
Care leaders that you coach.
So what's your advice in terms of what'sthe first shift that a leader can make
to get out of the firefighting mode?
Carolyn Tipper (19:18):
We talked a little bit early on about planning.
Yeah, that's, that's along term thing really.
But the other one is, I,I call it understanding.
Yes and no.
Tanya (19:28):
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (19:29):
So when I do coaching, we do some stuff around time management.
It's around creating capacity.
So it's not necessarily just aboutdiary management, it's about actually.
How you think and how you behave.
Mm. And something I call a high quality.
No.
Tanya (19:45):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (19:46):
So one of the things and one of the pitfalls that
leaders can fall into is thinking,I've gotta say yes to everything
I've got to make everything happen.
Tanya (19:54):
Mm.
Carolyn Tipper (19:55):
And actually.
A good high quality nois very, very powerful.
And as a leader, there are times whenyou really, really need to say no to
things so that you can say yes to thethings that are really, really important.
Say yes to the leadership things andno, to some of the administration
things or the doing stuff.
So one of the big things I say to people,let's understand the power of yes and no.
(20:16):
Yeah.
And when is the right time to say yes?
And when is the right time to say no?
Um, and that can be a game changerfrom people, um, because a lot
of people feel guilty saying no.
Tanya (20:25):
Yeah.
But
Carolyn Tipper (20:26):
actually when you are saying no, it's so you
can say yes to something else.
Tanya (20:30):
Mm.
Carolyn Tipper (20:30):
And it's remembering that when you say yes to something,
you might be saying no to somethingreally, really important down the line.
So that's like a great little onethat you can start leaders off on.
Tanya (20:40):
I like that.
I like that it's, it's like givingthem a bit of a perspective shift
in terms of how they can deal with.
It is a very practical and yeah,it's a very practical piece of
advice that they can like applystraight away on their day to day.
Carolyn Tipper (20:56):
You can only spend time once, it's like money.
You get people and they wouldn't evertry and spend a pound twice, you know,
can only spend, although sometimes theymaybe get themselves into debt doing it.
Yeah.
Um, it's the same with time.
You've got an hour, youcan only spend it once.
Tanya (21:10):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (21:10):
And people try to, to not do that.
They try to make, two hours into one.
And that's why people end up stressed,burnt out, that type of thing.
And what I often say to peopleis, every, for every hour that
you say yes to something, you'regonna say no to something else.
Tanya (21:26):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (21:27):
So make sure you're saying yes to the right stuff.
Make sure you're spending that time.
In the right place and where you need to.
And if you've got leader in yourtitle, if, if you've got people who
are reporting to you and looking to you
Tanya (21:40):
mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (21:40):
Then you need to work out how much of your time is
actually should be invested in leading.
Yeah.
And.
A lot of people don't, theydon't invest time in leading.
They have a to-do list.
And it quite often is tasks.
And they may go through the whole week,and if I was to look at the diary with
them, they may go through the whole weekhaving spent no time leading whatsoever.
(22:02):
Mm. Um, but then again, again,that refers back to them
understanding what leadership is.
And that's another partof coaching that we do.
Understanding what leadership is.
Yeah.
And the benefit there, it brings.
Tanya (22:12):
When you said they might spend the whole week not leading whatsoever
and just ticking off their to-do lists,what a good week of leading look like.
What does that look like for Care Leader?
Carolyn Tipper (22:22):
Yeah.
And there's something called sothere's a book actually called I've
Got with Me, leadership PlayingIn Simple by Steve Radcliffe.
Tanya (22:29):
And
Carolyn Tipper (22:30):
that's, has a model in there called the relationship pyramid,
which is one of my favorite models.
And you, within the relationshippyramid, it's called that because
at the bottom of the pyramid isrelationships and at the top is results.
Yeah.
And then there's a, and a sort ofstepped approach through from building
relationship to delivering results.
Tanya (22:50):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (22:50):
And you go from relationship through to vision
and possibilities, through toa plan, through to action, and
inevitably achieve the result.
And what.
When you look at that pyramid, ithelps you to see where you should
be spending your time as a leader.
So when you are in relationships,which is whether you are building them,
nurturing, creating new ones, when youare in that part, and the next part,
(23:14):
which is vision and possibilities.
So you're setting the direction,you're working out what's possible,
you're creating the ideas.
When you're in those two elementsof relationships and vision and
possibilities, you are leading.
Tanya (23:27):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (23:27):
So when you are talking to your people, when you are giving them
direction, when you are inspiring them,when you are creating some something new.
Mm. That's all the leadership stuff.
Once you start to get into theplanning phase, then you're actually
stepping into manager, which is fine.
Yeah.
Because it's elements of yourrole as a leader where you're
gonna be managing stuff.
Tanya (23:46):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (23:46):
You're creating a plan.
You're working out howthings are gonna be done.
And in what time scalesand who's gonna do it?
Mm. Then the last bit,you step into action.
So a part of your week's gonnabe doing things, of course it is.
But if you are spending all yourtime in planning and action, then
you are being a manager and a doer.
How much of that do you wanna be?
Is it 50% of your week you wanna spendin building relationships, talking
(24:09):
to people, talking to stakeholders,putting things in place for the future?
And half of it in planningand making stuff happen.
That's great.
But actually a lot of leaders spendtheir time in planning and taking action.
Tanya (24:24):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (24:24):
Some just spend their time in action.
Yeah.
In doing tasks.
Tanya (24:27):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (24:28):
And that's when you end up in that firefighting mode.
Tanya (24:30):
It is tricky.
Even though I'm not in socialcare and I know social care is so
much more time, poor time poor.
For me, I feel like sometimesbeing in the planning, in the
strategizing kind of mode will help.
I know that that will lay the foundationand the groundwork for me to not be in the
crisis mode, but it also, it's also very.
(24:52):
Rewarding being in the action modeand feeling like you're ticking.
Mm-hmm.
You know, that, that adrenalineabsolutely adrenal and a bit of a
dopamine when you tick all the boxes.
And I, I can imagine care leadersor care managers feel the same way.
And it's easy to fall into that trapof like box ticking exercise and
getting things done, which feels good.
(25:14):
If you don't take a step back andlook at the bigger picture and do
planning and strategizing and leadingand making sure that you have that
oversight, even though sometimes itdoesn't result in a box being ticked.
It'll help you in the long run,
Carolyn Tipper (25:29):
yeah.
And that's why people end up withreally long to-do lists because
they've not done that stuff.
So if you've got a team of peopleand you want them to perform to a
high standard, then you've gottahave a relationship with them.
A relationship with them is not justthat they know you are their boss.
It's that you understand how they work,you understand, you know, what their
(25:51):
strengths are, what their developmentareas are what blocks are in the way
for them that you now need to remove.
What needs do they have?
Yeah.
When do they need some time withyou to be able to make sure they
understand what they're doing?
All that stuff with your peopleis time that's gonna save you.
(26:11):
Doing the doing later on.
Tanya (26:13):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (26:14):
Getting the actual possibility set and the vision set with
them so that they're off and they knowwhat they're doing, that's gonna take
away from your to-do list later on.
Your to-do list is, you can, mighttick it all off, but it's gonna keep
getting bigger because the peoplethat you're actually supporting
are not doing as much of the stuffthat they should be doing because.
They've not got the relationship wherethey understand what they should be
(26:37):
doing or they've not got the visionwhere they understand what they're
doing or they haven't got the skillsbecause you haven't been spent that time
with them to help grow those skills.
Skills aren't just about, being ableto complete a task for individuals.
They're about actuallytheir own leadership skills.
And I've worked with some teams, oneteam in particular in social care where
(26:58):
at the beginning that team of leaderswere, they lacked direction, they lacked.
Any real cohesiveness or collaboration,and I wouldn't call 'em quite so
much di dysfunctional, but theywere a group of individuals.
And when we then started to work withthat leader coaching one-to-one, and
(27:20):
then work with the team in workshops,they moved within a 12 month space
from being a group of individuals that.
Really didn't work together to ahigh performing team who knew exactly
what they were doing, knew how to doit, and absolutely how to get there,
and didn't really need much support.
So that leader was able to step out ofthat team and now concentrate on the
(27:46):
wider business stuff and how to get thatteam to deliver the wider business stuff.
Taking that that, that person fromhaving a to-do list, to actually
being able to go out there and buildrelationships, think about the way
they should want to take that service.
And within a short space of time,set that team off in that direction
and almost leave them to it.
Tanya (28:07):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (28:07):
Off the go.
Yeah.
That they deliver it for you.
And that's the difference between a groupof individuals that are doing stuff and a
high performing team that are delivering.
To a certain extent.
Tanya (28:21):
Yeah.
That's a good story.
I think one of the challenges that Ihear a lot from a lot of the care leaders
is that it very much depends on theculture of the organization as well.
In order to allow them to do moreof the leading versus pretty much
a majority of the task they doevery day is like firefighting.
(28:43):
Mm-hmm.
Managing, and I guess how does that,how can, have you ever worked with any
organization where you have to do thatculture shift in terms of, not just like
allowing equipping care managers andleaders with the skills that they need and
the mindset that they need in order to do,to make that shift themselves, but also.
(29:05):
Kind of doing that top down coachingfrom, say, the CEO or the business
owners in order to allow that cultureto shift, to make the kind of the
mental shift for care managers easier.
Carolyn Tipper (29:19):
Yeah, and, and I guess the.
Best example of doing that from thewhole organization was the organization
that I stepped into, which thestory I mentioned earlier around
moving from retail into social care.
So my first appointment as HRDAbrilliant organization, it was
around about 200, 250 people inthe organization when I, I joined.
(29:43):
They were a spin out of our local council.
So had, it was almost setwith some council ways because
that's where they'd come from.
Yeah.
And then the ambition wasto double the size of the
organization within five years.
We doubled within about three yearsand then went on to increase even
further within the five years.
So that need to do thingsdifferently was, was.
(30:07):
Evident from the beginning,passion, the purpose so solid.
But the actual, how to get to that, that,that purpose of what we wanted to do.
And that purpose was again, I mentionedto help people live the life they choose.
So one of the things that I looked atwas the fact that we had some great
leaders who were very, very knowledgeable,knew social care inside out.
(30:31):
Delivered really good standards, butactually if we were gonna grow and expand.
Some of that wasn't sustainable becausethose leaders were delivering it because
they were doing a lot of the doing.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (30:43):
So one of the things that I set out was to actually build
a coaching program for the leaders.
So we had about 60 leaders.
When I started to do the program, wehad about 60 leaders in the business.
Yeah.
So the plan was to take all 60leaders, which included the CEO and
the executive team down to the firstlevel, which was house manager.
Tanya (31:02):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (31:02):
To take all those 60 leaders through the same coaching program.
Tanya (31:05):
Over
Carolyn Tipper (31:05):
a 12 month period.
Tanya (31:07):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (31:07):
And we mixed it up.
So we didn't start with top, we mixed,so each of the sessions had a mixture.
So you could be a house manager, satthere with the CEO, so you could see
how you were all developing together.
And when we first started with that,one of the very, very first exercises
I did in the first session waslooking at a spectrum from complete
and utter tell to pure coaching.
(31:31):
And it's not one or the other.
There's a real spectrum in the middle.
You know, there's inter mentoring,which is sharing some knowledge
right through to pure coaching whenyou're purely asking questions.
And I often say coachingisn't always the right answer.
If the building's boiling down, you're notgonna ask people how they want to get out
and what sort of process should we use.
You tell them how to get out.
(31:51):
Yeah.
So tells a useful thingsometimes, but actually we don't
realize how often coaching.
Can be a great tool.
And I do this exercise with theteam about where they are on
this, this sort of spectrum.
Tanya (32:06):
Mm.
Carolyn Tipper (32:06):
And a lot of people, their reason for being lower down on
the spectrum, nearer the tell is time.
I have got time to coach.
It's this perceptionthat coaching takes time.
Mm.
Tanya (32:16):
You
Carolyn Tipper (32:16):
can do a great coaching session in a corridor in five minutes.
Yeah.
You know, if you are asking somepeople about a situation and
then asking them about what they.
They have that time availableto them to solve it.
Then asking them what support they needfor you, what suggestions they need for
you, asking them about what they, youknow, can go and do as a first step.
(32:40):
That could take fiveminutes in a corridor.
You don't have to book a room and sitdown for an hour to, to coach somebody.
Speaker 5 (32:46):
But
Carolyn Tipper (32:46):
what it does is it creates some space, it creates some thinking and.
People quickly realized you cancoach a brand new person that's
entered the business on that day.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
Yeah.
'Carolyn Tipper: cause they don't come with no knowledge.
They come with a life of knowledge.
Yeah.
That they've got outside ofthat business that they come.
So you can start to ask them.
You might learn something new yourself.
Rather than tell themthis is the way we do it.
Actually ask them how they think weshould do and we might actually find
a better way of doing something.
So we did that with the whole60 leaders, um, with the idea of
(33:20):
changing to a coaching cultureMm. And coaching leadership style.
And that I think is oneof the things Absolutely.
Helped us to make that significant growth.
And actually not necessarily.
Um, and, and I guess moved to a placewhere we did that significant growth,
but actually went to a better placewhen it came to things like leadership
(33:42):
and capacity and planning the futureas opposed to crisis management.
Mm.
Tanya (33:49):
That's a beautiful story to end this episode at, so I guess.
My closing reflection is that if you couldgive one message to, if you could give one
message to care leaders listening rightnow who are stuck in the firefighting
mode, what would you tell them?
Carolyn Tipper (34:11):
Get rid of your to-do list.
Your tolu list is your downfall.
So I sometimes work with leaders and they.
They work, they think time managementis their to-do list and their to-do
list has got a hundred things onit and they're all a priority.
So get rid your to-do list.
And one of the things that I do ishave a completely different tool which.
(34:34):
Works with capacity management andget a really good tool instead.
That means you don't have anything onyour to-do list and that is possible.
Oh, it's absolutely possible.
Something I call the four Ds, whichis around delegation, diaries, ditch,
and then the fourth one is due.
And the idea is to, with thistool, have nothing on your
to-do list and it is possible.
Tanya (34:55):
Wow.
Carolyn Tipper (34:56):
Very possible.
I've done it sometimes whereI've thought my capacity is.
It's heavy in that next hour, thenext day I've looked at and gone,
right, okay, what do I diarize?
What do I delegate?
What do I ditch for now?
And I've ended up withnothing on my to-do list.
Tanya (35:12):
Wow.
Carolyn Tipper (35:12):
Um, so it's a great capacity creator and dead simple tool.
So get ready to do list and find adifferent way of managing your time.
Tanya (35:22):
That might sound a really scary step for most care leaders out there.
So I feel like they might need tolearn more from you in order to know
how to get rid of this to-do list.
'cause I don't even know howI'm gonna do that myself.
Yeah.
It feels like your to-do list is howyou're gonna be productive for the day.
So, um, yeah, I don't, Idon't have a to-do list.
Carolyn Tipper (35:42):
I do not have it.
Yeah.
And if I start to form one, whichmeans I've got three things on a
list that's not placed somewhere,
Speaker 5 (35:48):
I
Carolyn Tipper (35:48):
go, but I need to sort this out because I'm
starting to create a to-do list.
So the minute I start to haveanything that's not placed anywhere,
so everything I have is placed in adiary somewhere or in a delegation
that's gonna go to somebody else.
Tanya (36:00):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (36:01):
If I haven't got somebody else to do it, I need to find
somebody else who can do it because.
If it doesn't need to be done by meand it's sitting on my to-do list, it's
gonna stop me doing something else that'sreally important that I should be doing.
Tanya (36:14):
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (36:14):
And sometimes I have a bit of a ditch list or Adel a a
dump list where I might have likea list that's sitting in a drawer
somewhere that if I don't everdo it, it doesn't really matter.
Oh.
Tanya (36:26):
It's
Carolyn Tipper (36:26):
almost like something I might do when I find
I've got a bit of time on my hands.
Yeah.
But it's almost like if you lost thatpiece of paper, it wouldn't matter
because they're not really that important.
Tanya (36:35):
Mm.
Carolyn Tipper (36:35):
And so get what you to do.
I don't have a to-do list.
If I start to create one, I think Right.
I need to do this exerciseof getting rid of it.
Tanya (36:43):
Mm-hmm.
And
Carolyn Tipper (36:44):
It stops you having that little niggling thing in the back of your
mind that you might go and focus some timeon when actually you should be focusing
time on the people that are in your teamor the people that you are supporting.
Mm.
Tanya (36:57):
I think that's a really, really intriguing advice and it
makes me question my day to daynow, so I'm gonna take that away.
Have a really careful think about,I love the four D, so, uh, I might
try and apply that today actually.
But yeah, thank you so much forFabulous joining us on the podcast.
And, uh, if you want to followCarolyn she's on LinkedIn, Carolyn
(37:21):
Tipper and, uh, she offers coachingfor care leaders in social care.
Uh, if you want to know moreabout how to get rid of your
to-do list, get in touch with her.
She's also.
On Open Doc, our HealthConnect Free policy library.
So if you wanna find out more,go to health connect.com/policy.
welcome back everybody to Care Intelligence a Revolution podcast.
(00:04):
Today I am joined by someone whoembodies what it means to lead
with both purpose and practicality.
Carolyn Tipper.
Carolyn is an executive coach with realworld leadership experience, having
led large teams across both globalcorporations and nonprofit organizations.
(00:25):
Her mission is simple.
But powerful to help organizationsachieve remarkable success while
enabling individuals to findjoy in their work every day.
What sets Carolyn apart is that she's beenin the trenches herself, navigating the
same challenges her clients face today.
(00:46):
She brings that lived experienceinto every coaching sessions.
Her approach is outcome focused andgrounded in reality and deeply human.
The kind of coaching that's notonly transforms performance,
but also renews purpose.
Additionally, Carolyn is also oneof the early experts on open doc
(01:07):
the Health Connect policy librarythat is fee for everyone to access.
She's sharing her expertisein governance, hr, and more.
Carolyn, it's such a pleasure to have you.
Welcome to the show.
Hi, good morning.
Good morning.
So, uh, I mean, we're filming at myhouse, so you found your way here,
luckily, uh, but the motorway was shut.
(01:27):
That was a bit of a nuisance, wasn't
Carolyn Tipper (01:29):
it?
It was, and not too bad.
I had about 10 minutes.
I had a quite an interesting detourthrough a village, which I dunno
what the village was, um, because ithad taken me around some other way.
Yeah.
Um, but yeah, it was a nice littleinsight to some of the villages
in this beautiful location.
We had a chat before
Tanya (01:44):
and you told me the story of how you got into social care.
Can you take our audiencethrough your story again?
Like why social care?
Carolyn Tipper (01:53):
Yeah.
My, my original background was infinance when I started, um, my working
career, I did about 18 years in financeand it taught me a hell of a lot.
It taught me about disciplineand delivery and, mm-hmm.
All those things that gave me reallygood grounding and I didn't really
know anything different until I left.
Um, and then I went into retail whichwas a real eye eyeopener because
(02:17):
finance is very traditional, really.
So a lot about disciplines, A lot about.
Delivery very fast paced.
And then when I went into retail,slightly different, a little bit more
dynamic, a little bit more maverick.
Tanya (02:32):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (02:32):
Met a lot of really, really different characters and I
realized that actually I was probablymore suited to that, that a little bit
more dynamic and maverick um, environment.
Um, and I did, then I did about 15 yearsin retail across b and q and boots.
And then I took Volunt redundancyand my main purpose was to find
(02:53):
something that was different.
Yeah.
So that was the word that I kept saying topeople, I want something different, but I
didn't know what different really meant.
And then I got a call fromsomebody who said to me, I'm not
sure you'd be interested in this.
It's really different.
I was like, yep, I'm interested.
And it was in social care.
Now my family.
I've very much worked in the health andsocial care environment, all the life.
(03:14):
My mom, my sisters my partner.
Tanya (03:17):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (03:17):
And so I went along, did the interview, um,
got the job as HR director.
But one of the specificthings I think stuck with me.
I was in probably one of my first seniorleadership meetings and we talked about.
Why we wanted to do somethingparticular at that time, and we're
going round and round in circles.
(03:37):
Yeah.
And suddenly somebody said somethingthat resonate with our purpose.
So our purpose as a social careorganization was to help people
live the life they choose.
Tanya (03:48):
Mm.
Carolyn Tipper (03:48):
And somebody said at that point, is this gonna help the people
we support live the life they choose?
Tanya (03:54):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (03:55):
And.
If the answer was yes, right, we'regonna do it, we're gonna crack on.
If the answer was no, whatare we doing it for then?
Tanya (04:01):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (04:02):
And that was so different to my past in retail and finance.
The question was, most of the time,is this gonna put the right amount
of profit on the bottom line?
Yeah.
And so I loved that, that,that way of thinking.
And it absolutely.
Fitted with, with where I came from.
Tanya (04:19):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (04:19):
So that was it.
I was, I was sold on social care.
Yeah.
And I spent the next five years helping togrow and the organization that I was in.
Tanya (04:27):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (04:27):
In social care, Uhhuh.
Tanya (04:29):
I find there's a commonality between anyone who kind of changed their
career tructure and got into social care.
I had my episode recording withKevin Humphrey's, CEO of Oakland Care
group yesterday, and his story isnot quite the same, but very similar.
He came from corporate management andhe said he got tired of making money for
(04:51):
the people who already had enough money,and that's why he got into social care.
And when he got into social care.
The conversations around him were allabout how do we make people's lives
better rather than how much money,how much more money can we make?
Yeah.
And I think that's kind of the, uh,commonality that I find, you know, across
all of you who work in social care.
(05:13):
And I think for you and Kevinand all of the experts who got
involved in Open Doc so earlier on,to share your knowledge as well.
And that shows how, howmuch you care about.
Actual impact on people's livesthrough anything that you can do.
And policy and governanceis one of them, right?
Carolyn Tipper (05:33):
Absolutely.
Tanya (05:34):
Yeah.
Uh, so I think this episode todayis to try and draw your experie uh,
expertise on policies, HR, governance,and also leadership coaching, and.
We're gonna go quite nicheinto policy and governance.
'cause you've worked with a lotof leaders and this seems like
one of the main challenges.
(05:56):
And it's also thankless work as wellbecause it's behind the scene as hidden.
Most patients, residents andclients that don't see the work.
Uh, have gone into policy andgovernance and making sure that care
is delivered safely and compliantly.
So I think since we started theproject on Open Doc, every day we
(06:20):
talk to different care managers andnurses, and what we hear is that.
Policy and governance can be well,uh, have been really admin heavy.
They constantly firefighting andthey're constantly having that mental
load of not having enough policies orall the right policies in place and
not having up to date policies or eventailored policy to their businesses.
(06:47):
And that weigh on their mind From yourexperience, um, why do you so many care
leaders end up like in the firefightingkind of position or situation?
Carolyn Tipper (07:00):
Mostly through planning or lack of planning, if you are not
thinking beyond the moment that youare in, whether that be the day that
you are in, the week that you are in,then you are always at the mercy of
what's going on for you that time.
But when you actuallyplan and you think about.
The next week, the next month, thetarget that you're trying to get to,
(07:22):
the thing that you're trying to deliver,the difference that you are trying to
make, then you are more in control of it.
And the bit that I find people do,a lot of the time, they feel like
they've got so much on their plate.
They haven't got time to plan,they haven't got time to think.
They
haven't got time to prepare.
And that means you're workingoff, off the cuff all the time.
So the lack of planning is the bigthing that I find keeps people in that
(07:45):
sort of crisis place that they're inand they sort of get used to do it.
And the people who sometimes say they'regood at it, I'm good at working depression
and good at working in a crisis.
Um, and I, but wouldn't it beso much better if you weren't,
if
you actually worked in a verycontrolled, calm, plum considered way?
So definitely lack of planning is, is onethat I find is a common, a common issue.
Tanya (08:08):
To that lack of planning in the first place.
What are the root causes of that?
Carolyn Tipper (08:13):
So often people think that.
One time, I call it capacity.
Tanya (08:18):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (08:18):
So capacity is something you create.
You can't really create time.
We've all got the same 24 hoursin a day, 60 minutes in an hour.
But actually you can create capacityand that's a slightly different thing.
So that lack of being able tocreate capacity is an issue.
Plus also people find that theycreate a plan and then it gets.
(08:39):
Disturbed, knocked off track.
So they all sometimesthink what's the point?
Tanya (08:44):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (08:44):
Whereas actually creating a plan means at least if only half of
those things happen when they shoulddo, and the other half you replan,
then
you're still in control.
Yeah.
So it really is a bit of beliefand then some skill as well.
Tanya (08:57):
Okay.
So I, I think I hear a lot about the lackof time and capacity from care leaders.
And I think that's kind of a commonthing across the sector, uh, is that
everyone social care, so tam poor butthe lack of skills and the lack of
like belief as well, it's somethingthat you add to the mix for them.
(09:18):
You give them that, you equip leaderswith that through your coaching session.
Right,
Carolyn Tipper (09:23):
absolutely.
So I've had leaders that I've worked withwho started with me and said, I haven't
got time to do the things that, the basicstuff, nevermind the leadership stuff.
Certainly haven't got time to do anythingthat's outside of my remit of my role.
And then within short space time, so I'veworked with people for six or 12 months.
So within that six months I've got 'emto a place where not only have they said.
(09:48):
Now the things are taking careof themselves 'cause I've got
my team working how they should.
I know that I'm leading the majorityof the time and I'm looking at
projects that I can take on that aregoing to increase their development
and make a bigger difference to the,you know, to the wider organization.
Tanya (10:04):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (10:05):
So it doesn't take a long time to do that.
Six months is more than enough time.
Sometimes people work with mefor 12 months 'cause they've got
bigger stuff that they want to do.
But yeah, it's, it.
It's teaching them howto understand themselves.
Coaching them on how to understand others.
Yeah.
And then helping them gainsome capacity creation skills.
(10:25):
And once you've done all thosethree things, that transformation
happens quite easily.
Tanya (10:29):
I think what you, like you said, what you add is through the.
Kind of the skill coaching and alsothe mindset coaching and giving care
leaders a framework so that theycan transition from the position of
constantly fight, fighting and workingin, you know, crisis mode and chaos mode.
(10:51):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, into more of a planned wellplanned, well prepared kind of
mindset on, I think for health and it,we're kind of trying to do the same.
Through the means of technology.
So what we're doing with kind of systemsdata and being able to provide care
leaders with intelligence is that wegive care leaders with real time data
(11:14):
and insights and intelligence to helpthem have that oversight so that they
can always prepare for what comes next,so that they never find themselves,
well, rarely will find themselvesin you know, a crisis situation.
However it is, it is a challengebecause right now what we see in the
data is that every 29 minutes someonestops caring to start recording care.
(11:37):
And on average, the same information getsrepeated five times across five different
systems or different systems sometimesmultiple times within one system.
And that makes leaders feel very stuckand in this kind of administrative.
Cycle.
What we see is that most systems arebuilt for audits and not for people,
(12:01):
and they're not designed to give leadersclarity and they just create more noise.
Mm-hmm.
Is that from coaching, you know,working with different care leaders?
Is that what you see as well?
And do they often talk about the systemsthat they have in place and how much.
That either help or hinder them.
Carolyn Tipper (12:19):
Yeah.
Systems like that you've spoken aboutor perhaps even other processes, whether
it be IT or frameworks or even culture.
Really, sometimes some of thesethings can, that should be, should be
designed to assist us can hinder us.
Tanya (12:37):
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (12:37):
And particularly when you talked about things like
policies and procedures, theyshould be things that guide us.
Tanya (12:44):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (12:44):
Um.
Sometimes people see them as thingsthat restrict you, and that's because
they get wrapped up in perhaps havingto follow something and do it right.
It's like a
process as well.
I'm more concentrating on havingto do this thing right, than
actually doing the right thing.
Yeah.
In this situation.
Whereas there are times I've said topeople in the past, yes, the policy or the
(13:09):
procedure is this, but we need to do this
because
this is the right thing to do.
And I often got people who used tocome to me in the past and they'd
say, can you tell me what policywe've got on such and such thing?
And I could, and my team couldhave gone, yes, here's the policy,
and left
them to go away and follow it.
(13:31):
But I always said the question is.
Actually, what is it?
Just tell me what's going on.
What is it that you want the policy for?
Tanya (13:38):
Mm-hmm.
Tell
Carolyn Tipper (13:38):
me about the situation and when they tell you about the
situation, then the policy mightnot necessarily be the things that
you need at that point in time.
You need to think about theperson and the situation.
So the policies and processesfor me are there as a guide.
Tanya (13:56):
Yeah.
And.
Carolyn Tipper (13:57):
That fits into them being flexible, being simple, being easy to
understand, or if you're gonna take apolicy away and spend two days having
to read it and understand it and thendecide how you tick off following it,
then it's not really been the right.
Support and the right thing.
So you are right.
They sometimes become a hindrancebecause of the things like them being
(14:22):
too long, too complicated, too rigid.
Mm-hmm.
Something that is actuallymuch more flexible, gives you
the guidance that you need.
Is for me the right thing,
Tanya (14:34):
speaking of policies and, and procedures and following
policies and procedures.
You are one of the early expertson the free policy library that
we currently building with thecommunity of experts on open dock.
I think what we're trying to do is getcare leaders and also the frontline teams
out of that firefighting mode and givingthem that skill in order to navigate
(15:00):
policies and procedures, uh, with.
More of a clinical and also moreof a operational framework behind
them, so an understanding, a more ofa clear understanding behind them.
Then you, you've also worked with early,like early startup care businesses, and
(15:20):
I think one of the main barriers to entryinto social care is that it's the policies
and procedures and having all of them,all of the right ones in place in order
to go through that CQC registration.
It's a very time consumingand costly process.
That's one of the main barrier.
And then say they've gonethrough that process.
(15:43):
Now all of the policies andprocedures, they just sit in a dusty
cabinet or folder, somewhere inthe shared drive and they just sit
there waiting to go out of date.
And then like you said, theother element is that they
might not be easy to understand.
If you, if your staff have to spend daysreading multiple page documents in order
(16:05):
to understand how to do their job, thenthey're not really serving their purpose.
So
Carolyn Tipper (16:09):
I guess there's a couple of things as to how they, they come about.
So you, you mentioned that eitherthey can be very costly, you might
go and hire a law firm mm-hmm.
An employment law firm to helpyou put them together so that you
adhering to the employment law sideof it or the regulation side of it.
You might go and enlist policiesthat are being used somewhere else,
(16:32):
particularly if you've been workingwith a local, a local council
before you might use their policies.
Tanya (16:39):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (16:40):
Or you might try and create them yourself.
All of those things, can bedifficult costly and time consuming.
Tanya (16:46):
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (16:47):
So if you've got something like yourself that actually
comes along and says, here's thebest of what's, you know, what's out
there that's already been looked atand already been put together for.
No cost or even little cost.
Tanya (17:00):
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (17:00):
That's like a bit of a wow moment, really.
Because the problems that I've hadwith them in the past is people,
um, applying them in a way thatdoesn't necessarily benefit.
The people that you support?
Tanya (17:15):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (17:15):
Or even benefit the organization.
And that means if you stood backand went, actually, what is the
common sense thing to do when we'reapplying this policy and procedure?
They may come out actually withsomething that's much more useful
and is gonna resolve the situation.
Tanya (17:34):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (17:34):
Rather than, yeah.
Following the letter or something.
So I always used to say, what's gonnaget us to where we wanna get to here?
Tanya (17:41):
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (17:41):
And how is the policy gonna help us do that?
So for the sake of how they've been usedin the past the not great way of them
being used is being, here's something to.
Fix what we're doing as opposedto here's something that's
gonna enable what we want to do.
Tanya (18:02):
Yeah,
Carolyn Tipper (18:03):
and that's the thing that I've always said with HR full
stop, whether it be the people sideof it or it be the policy side of it.
Mm-hmm.
How do we enable doing whatit is that we want to do?
How do we enable us to be able togo and support more people and help
them live the life they choose?
If that's your.
Purpose or some of thepurpose that you've got.
And your policies and proceduresneed to be able to do that.
(18:25):
They need to be able to enableyou to do what you want to do.
Not fix it or create barriers.
And if the policies that you're talkingabout can do that is the biggest benefit
Tanya (18:38):
with free policies that will create a lot of benefits for
especially smaller care providers.
Um.
I think give, giving them that bit ofa lifeline for them easier, making the
process smoother for them to enter.
So social care will bea game changer for them.
I wanted to kind of dive deep di divea bit deeper into how, um, care leaders
(19:03):
can move from the firefighter in modeto leading mode, because I think that's
one of the benefit that you offer.
Care leaders that you coach.
So what's your advice in terms of what'sthe first shift that a leader can make
to get out of the firefighting mode?
Carolyn Tipper (19:18):
We talked a little bit early on about planning.
Yeah, that's, that's along term thing really.
But the other one is, I,I call it understanding.
Yes and no.
Tanya (19:28):
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (19:29):
So when I do coaching, we do some stuff around time management.
It's around creating capacity.
So it's not necessarily just aboutdiary management, it's about actually.
How you think and how you behave.
Mm. And something I call a high quality.
No.
Tanya (19:45):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (19:46):
So one of the things and one of the pitfalls that
leaders can fall into is thinking,I've gotta say yes to everything
I've got to make everything happen.
Tanya (19:54):
Mm.
Carolyn Tipper (19:55):
And actually.
A good high quality nois very, very powerful.
And as a leader, there are times whenyou really, really need to say no to
things so that you can say yes to thethings that are really, really important.
Say yes to the leadership things andno, to some of the administration
things or the doing stuff.
So one of the big things I say to people,let's understand the power of yes and no.
(20:16):
Yeah.
And when is the right time to say yes?
And when is the right time to say no?
Um, and that can be a game changerfrom people, um, because a lot
of people feel guilty saying no.
Tanya (20:25):
Yeah.
But
Carolyn Tipper (20:26):
actually when you are saying no, it's so you
can say yes to something else.
Tanya (20:30):
Mm.
Carolyn Tipper (20:30):
And it's remembering that when you say yes to something,
you might be saying no to somethingreally, really important down the line.
So that's like a great little onethat you can start leaders off on.
Tanya (20:40):
I like that.
I like that it's, it's like givingthem a bit of a perspective shift
in terms of how they can deal with.
It is a very practical and yeah,it's a very practical piece of
advice that they can like applystraight away on their day to day.
Carolyn Tipper (20:56):
You can only spend time once, it's like money.
You get people and they wouldn't evertry and spend a pound twice, you know,
can only spend, although sometimes theymaybe get themselves into debt doing it.
Yeah.
Um, it's the same with time.
You've got an hour, youcan only spend it once.
Tanya (21:10):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (21:10):
And people try to, to not do that.
They try to make, two hours into one.
And that's why people end up stressed,burnt out, that type of thing.
And what I often say to peopleis, every, for every hour that
you say yes to something, you'regonna say no to something else.
Tanya (21:26):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (21:27):
So make sure you're saying yes to the right stuff.
Make sure you're spending that time.
In the right place and where you need to.
And if you've got leader in yourtitle, if, if you've got people who
are reporting to you and looking to you
Tanya (21:40):
mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (21:40):
Then you need to work out how much of your time is
actually should be invested in leading.
Yeah.
And.
A lot of people don't, theydon't invest time in leading.
They have a to-do list.
And it quite often is tasks.
And they may go through the whole week,and if I was to look at the diary with
them, they may go through the whole weekhaving spent no time leading whatsoever.
(22:02):
Mm. Um, but then again, again,that refers back to them
understanding what leadership is.
And that's another partof coaching that we do.
Understanding what leadership is.
Yeah.
And the benefit there, it brings.
Tanya (22:12):
When you said they might spend the whole week not leading whatsoever
and just ticking off their to-do lists,what a good week of leading look like.
What does that look like for Care Leader?
Carolyn Tipper (22:22):
Yeah.
And there's something called sothere's a book actually called I've
Got with Me, leadership PlayingIn Simple by Steve Radcliffe.
Tanya (22:29):
And
Carolyn Tipper (22:30):
that's, has a model in there called the relationship pyramid,
which is one of my favorite models.
And you, within the relationshippyramid, it's called that because
at the bottom of the pyramid isrelationships and at the top is results.
Yeah.
And then there's a, and a sort ofstepped approach through from building
relationship to delivering results.
Tanya (22:50):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (22:50):
And you go from relationship through to vision
and possibilities, through toa plan, through to action, and
inevitably achieve the result.
And what.
When you look at that pyramid, ithelps you to see where you should
be spending your time as a leader.
So when you are in relationships,which is whether you are building them,
nurturing, creating new ones, when youare in that part, and the next part,
(23:14):
which is vision and possibilities.
So you're setting the direction,you're working out what's possible,
you're creating the ideas.
When you're in those two elementsof relationships and vision and
possibilities, you are leading.
Tanya (23:27):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (23:27):
So when you are talking to your people, when you are giving them
direction, when you are inspiring them,when you are creating some something new.
Mm. That's all the leadership stuff.
Once you start to get into theplanning phase, then you're actually
stepping into manager, which is fine.
Yeah.
Because it's elements of yourrole as a leader where you're
gonna be managing stuff.
Tanya (23:46):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (23:46):
You're creating a plan.
You're working out howthings are gonna be done.
And in what time scalesand who's gonna do it?
Mm. Then the last bit,you step into action.
So a part of your week's gonnabe doing things, of course it is.
But if you are spending all yourtime in planning and action, then
you are being a manager and a doer.
How much of that do you wanna be?
Is it 50% of your week you wanna spendin building relationships, talking
(24:09):
to people, talking to stakeholders,putting things in place for the future?
And half of it in planningand making stuff happen.
That's great.
But actually a lot of leaders spendtheir time in planning and taking action.
Tanya (24:24):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (24:24):
Some just spend their time in action.
Yeah.
In doing tasks.
Tanya (24:27):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (24:28):
And that's when you end up in that firefighting mode.
Tanya (24:30):
It is tricky.
Even though I'm not in socialcare and I know social care is so
much more time, poor time poor.
For me, I feel like sometimesbeing in the planning, in the
strategizing kind of mode will help.
I know that that will lay the foundationand the groundwork for me to not be in the
crisis mode, but it also, it's also very.
(24:52):
Rewarding being in the action modeand feeling like you're ticking.
Mm-hmm.
You know, that, that adrenalineabsolutely adrenal and a bit of a
dopamine when you tick all the boxes.
And I, I can imagine care leadersor care managers feel the same way.
And it's easy to fall into that trapof like box ticking exercise and
getting things done, which feels good.
(25:14):
If you don't take a step back andlook at the bigger picture and do
planning and strategizing and leadingand making sure that you have that
oversight, even though sometimes itdoesn't result in a box being ticked.
It'll help you in the long run,
Carolyn Tipper (25:29):
yeah.
And that's why people end up withreally long to-do lists because
they've not done that stuff.
So if you've got a team of peopleand you want them to perform to a
high standard, then you've gottahave a relationship with them.
A relationship with them is not justthat they know you are their boss.
It's that you understand how they work,you understand, you know, what their
(25:51):
strengths are, what their developmentareas are what blocks are in the way
for them that you now need to remove.
What needs do they have?
Yeah.
When do they need some time withyou to be able to make sure they
understand what they're doing?
All that stuff with your peopleis time that's gonna save you.
(26:11):
Doing the doing later on.
Tanya (26:13):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (26:14):
Getting the actual possibility set and the vision set with
them so that they're off and they knowwhat they're doing, that's gonna take
away from your to-do list later on.
Your to-do list is, you can, mighttick it all off, but it's gonna keep
getting bigger because the peoplethat you're actually supporting
are not doing as much of the stuffthat they should be doing because.
They've not got the relationship wherethey understand what they should be
(26:37):
doing or they've not got the visionwhere they understand what they're
doing or they haven't got the skillsbecause you haven't been spent that time
with them to help grow those skills.
Skills aren't just about, being ableto complete a task for individuals.
They're about actuallytheir own leadership skills.
And I've worked with some teams, oneteam in particular in social care where
(26:58):
at the beginning that team of leaderswere, they lacked direction, they lacked.
Any real cohesiveness or collaboration,and I wouldn't call 'em quite so
much di dysfunctional, but theywere a group of individuals.
And when we then started to work withthat leader coaching one-to-one, and
(27:20):
then work with the team in workshops,they moved within a 12 month space
from being a group of individuals that.
Really didn't work together to ahigh performing team who knew exactly
what they were doing, knew how to doit, and absolutely how to get there,
and didn't really need much support.
So that leader was able to step out ofthat team and now concentrate on the
(27:46):
wider business stuff and how to get thatteam to deliver the wider business stuff.
Taking that that, that person fromhaving a to-do list, to actually
being able to go out there and buildrelationships, think about the way
they should want to take that service.
And within a short space of time,set that team off in that direction
and almost leave them to it.
Tanya (28:07):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (28:07):
Off the go.
Yeah.
That they deliver it for you.
And that's the difference between a groupof individuals that are doing stuff and a
high performing team that are delivering.
To a certain extent.
Tanya (28:21):
Yeah.
That's a good story.
I think one of the challenges that Ihear a lot from a lot of the care leaders
is that it very much depends on theculture of the organization as well.
In order to allow them to do moreof the leading versus pretty much
a majority of the task they doevery day is like firefighting.
(28:43):
Mm-hmm.
Managing, and I guess how does that,how can, have you ever worked with any
organization where you have to do thatculture shift in terms of, not just like
allowing equipping care managers andleaders with the skills that they need and
the mindset that they need in order to do,to make that shift themselves, but also.
(29:05):
Kind of doing that top down coachingfrom, say, the CEO or the business
owners in order to allow that cultureto shift, to make the kind of the
mental shift for care managers easier.
Carolyn Tipper (29:19):
Yeah, and, and I guess the.
Best example of doing that from thewhole organization was the organization
that I stepped into, which thestory I mentioned earlier around
moving from retail into social care.
So my first appointment as HRDAbrilliant organization, it was
around about 200, 250 people inthe organization when I, I joined.
(29:43):
They were a spin out of our local council.
So had, it was almost setwith some council ways because
that's where they'd come from.
Yeah.
And then the ambition wasto double the size of the
organization within five years.
We doubled within about three yearsand then went on to increase even
further within the five years.
So that need to do thingsdifferently was, was.
(30:07):
Evident from the beginning,passion, the purpose so solid.
But the actual, how to get to that, that,that purpose of what we wanted to do.
And that purpose was again, I mentionedto help people live the life they choose.
So one of the things that I looked atwas the fact that we had some great
leaders who were very, very knowledgeable,knew social care inside out.
(30:31):
Delivered really good standards, butactually if we were gonna grow and expand.
Some of that wasn't sustainable becausethose leaders were delivering it because
they were doing a lot of the doing.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (30:43):
So one of the things that I set out was to actually build
a coaching program for the leaders.
So we had about 60 leaders.
When I started to do the program, wehad about 60 leaders in the business.
Yeah.
So the plan was to take all 60leaders, which included the CEO and
the executive team down to the firstlevel, which was house manager.
Tanya (31:02):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (31:02):
To take all those 60 leaders through the same coaching program.
Tanya (31:05):
Over
Carolyn Tipper (31:05):
a 12 month period.
Tanya (31:07):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (31:07):
And we mixed it up.
So we didn't start with top, we mixed,so each of the sessions had a mixture.
So you could be a house manager, satthere with the CEO, so you could see
how you were all developing together.
And when we first started with that,one of the very, very first exercises
I did in the first session waslooking at a spectrum from complete
and utter tell to pure coaching.
(31:31):
And it's not one or the other.
There's a real spectrum in the middle.
You know, there's inter mentoring,which is sharing some knowledge
right through to pure coaching whenyou're purely asking questions.
And I often say coachingisn't always the right answer.
If the building's boiling down, you're notgonna ask people how they want to get out
and what sort of process should we use.
You tell them how to get out.
(31:51):
Yeah.
So tells a useful thingsometimes, but actually we don't
realize how often coaching.
Can be a great tool.
And I do this exercise with theteam about where they are on
this, this sort of spectrum.
Tanya (32:06):
Mm.
Carolyn Tipper (32:06):
And a lot of people, their reason for being lower down on
the spectrum, nearer the tell is time.
I have got time to coach.
It's this perceptionthat coaching takes time.
Mm.
Tanya (32:16):
You
Carolyn Tipper (32:16):
can do a great coaching session in a corridor in five minutes.
Yeah.
You know, if you are asking somepeople about a situation and
then asking them about what they.
They have that time availableto them to solve it.
Then asking them what support they needfor you, what suggestions they need for
you, asking them about what they, youknow, can go and do as a first step.
(32:40):
That could take fiveminutes in a corridor.
You don't have to book a room and sitdown for an hour to, to coach somebody.
Speaker 5 (32:46):
But
Carolyn Tipper (32:46):
what it does is it creates some space, it creates some thinking and.
People quickly realized you cancoach a brand new person that's
entered the business on that day.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
Yeah.
'Carolyn Tipper: cause they don't come with no knowledge.
They come with a life of knowledge.
Yeah.
That they've got outside ofthat business that they come.
So you can start to ask them.
You might learn something new yourself.
Rather than tell themthis is the way we do it.
Actually ask them how they think weshould do and we might actually find
a better way of doing something.
So we did that with the whole60 leaders, um, with the idea of
(33:20):
changing to a coaching cultureMm. And coaching leadership style.
And that I think is oneof the things Absolutely.
Helped us to make that significant growth.
And actually not necessarily.
Um, and, and I guess moved to a placewhere we did that significant growth,
but actually went to a better placewhen it came to things like leadership
(33:42):
and capacity and planning the futureas opposed to crisis management.
Mm.
Tanya (33:49):
That's a beautiful story to end this episode at, so I guess.
My closing reflection is that if you couldgive one message to, if you could give one
message to care leaders listening rightnow who are stuck in the firefighting
mode, what would you tell them?
Carolyn Tipper (34:11):
Get rid of your to-do list.
Your tolu list is your downfall.
So I sometimes work with leaders and they.
They work, they think time managementis their to-do list and their to-do
list has got a hundred things onit and they're all a priority.
So get rid your to-do list.
And one of the things that I do ishave a completely different tool which.
(34:34):
Works with capacity management andget a really good tool instead.
That means you don't have anything onyour to-do list and that is possible.
Oh, it's absolutely possible.
Something I call the four Ds, whichis around delegation, diaries, ditch,
and then the fourth one is due.
And the idea is to, with thistool, have nothing on your
to-do list and it is possible.
Tanya (34:55):
Wow.
Carolyn Tipper (34:56):
Very possible.
I've done it sometimes whereI've thought my capacity is.
It's heavy in that next hour, thenext day I've looked at and gone,
right, okay, what do I diarize?
What do I delegate?
What do I ditch for now?
And I've ended up withnothing on my to-do list.
Tanya (35:12):
Wow.
Carolyn Tipper (35:12):
Um, so it's a great capacity creator and dead simple tool.
So get ready to do list and find adifferent way of managing your time.
Tanya (35:22):
That might sound a really scary step for most care leaders out there.
So I feel like they might need tolearn more from you in order to know
how to get rid of this to-do list.
'cause I don't even know howI'm gonna do that myself.
Yeah.
It feels like your to-do list is howyou're gonna be productive for the day.
So, um, yeah, I don't, Idon't have a to-do list.
Carolyn Tipper (35:42):
I do not have it.
Yeah.
And if I start to form one, whichmeans I've got three things on a
list that's not placed somewhere,
Speaker 5 (35:48):
I
Carolyn Tipper (35:48):
go, but I need to sort this out because I'm
starting to create a to-do list.
So the minute I start to haveanything that's not placed anywhere,
so everything I have is placed in adiary somewhere or in a delegation
that's gonna go to somebody else.
Tanya (36:00):
Yeah.
Carolyn Tipper (36:01):
If I haven't got somebody else to do it, I need to find
somebody else who can do it because.
If it doesn't need to be done by meand it's sitting on my to-do list, it's
gonna stop me doing something else that'sreally important that I should be doing.
Tanya (36:14):
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Tipper (36:14):
And sometimes I have a bit of a ditch list or Adel a a
dump list where I might have likea list that's sitting in a drawer
somewhere that if I don't everdo it, it doesn't really matter.
Oh.
Tanya (36:26):
It's
Carolyn Tipper (36:26):
almost like something I might do when I find
I've got a bit of time on my hands.
Yeah.
But it's almost like if you lost thatpiece of paper, it wouldn't matter
because they're not really that important.
Tanya (36:35):
Mm.
Carolyn Tipper (36:35):
And so get what you to do.
I don't have a to-do list.
If I start to create one, I think Right.
I need to do this exerciseof getting rid of it.
Tanya (36:43):
Mm-hmm.
And
Carolyn Tipper (36:44):
It stops you having that little niggling thing in the back of your
mind that you might go and focus some timeon when actually you should be focusing
time on the people that are in your teamor the people that you are supporting.
Mm.
Tanya (36:57):
I think that's a really, really intriguing advice and it
makes me question my day to daynow, so I'm gonna take that away.
Have a really careful think about,I love the four D, so, uh, I might
try and apply that today actually.
But yeah, thank you so much forFabulous joining us on the podcast.
And, uh, if you want to followCarolyn she's on LinkedIn, Carolyn
(37:21):
Tipper and, uh, she offers coachingfor care leaders in social care.
Uh, if you want to know moreabout how to get rid of your
to-do list, get in touch with her.
She's also.
On Open Doc, our HealthConnect Free policy library.
So if you wanna find out more,go to health connect.com/policy.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.