November 18, 2025 • 59 mins
A chat about boys and men. Natalie and Elle explore the current state of masculinity - male attitudes, behaviors and culture. And how do men perceive themselves and the challenges they face?
In this episode, we highlight both struggles and positive shifts, digging into men’s economic anxiety, loneliness, violence, and the growing manosphere, but also new models for raising boys and young men, and the work of creating healthier masculine narratives and supportive communities in order to redefine what it means to be a man.
WE DISCUSS:
(00:00:00) Episode Overview
Introduction to the state of manhood and masculinity norms
(00:03:53) Equimundo’s State of American Men Research Report on American men, highlighting men’s own perspectives on masculinity
(00:05:02) Key issues overview: economic anxiety, restrictive masculinity, loneliness, and time online
(00:07:11) Exploration of men’s shifting provider role, economic pressures, and identity
(00:11:28) Masculinity becoming more restrictive
(00:13:38) Male loneliness and emotional accountability discussion
(00:16:15) Male Alexithymia and emotional expression
(00:22:08) Manosphere narratives and online radicalization
(00:24:04) Debunking the “Men Are Losing Out” myth
(00:27:19) Overview of online manosphere groups
(00:35:13) Recognition of violence as a key issue for men, including self-directed violence
(00:40:32) Discussion of how violence is perpetuated and the importance of community for men
(00:52:11) Raising boys and young men
Discussion of matriarchal models, mother-son bonds, and raising feminist sons
(00:55:13) Early education and gender stereotypes
Highlight of Icelandic preschool program combatting gender stereotypes
EPISODE LINKS
State of American Men Study 2025
Alexithymia | Katie Hanlon TikTok
The Other Parent | James Steyer
Male Fiction Authors | Tracy Sierra TikTok
Gen Z Men & Women’s Outlook | NBC News
Belonging vs Fitting In | Brenee Brown
The Lives of Boys with Michael Conway | Subject to Power
Disappointing Men | Solid 7 TikTok
How to Raise a Feminist Son | Sonora Jha
Why she wrote the book | Sonora Jha Instagram
CONTACT
Website: www.chatinthecommons.com
Instagram: @chatinthecommons
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha!Ha ha ha ha!
Welcome to Chat in the Commons,where we tear it all down.
(00:29):
One sensible conversation at a time.I'm Natalie Blundell, I'm in the
corporate world and also the founderof an online women's support
community. And I'm Elle Kamihira.I'm a documentary producer and
podcast host.
(00:56):
Welcome everyone.We're going to talk about men today.
Boys are men.I guess it's just a change up,
because, you know,a lot of our episodes are based
on feminism and women's rightsand looking at everything
through a woman's perspective.Yeah, the focus is going to be
on men, but we're still lookingat it through a feminist lens.
That's that's true. Unavoidable.I'm afraid I'm coming into the mic a
(01:21):
little bit here, because secret iswhen I was researching this episode,
I had a really hard time thinking ofthings positive to say about men
and boys, and I kept defaultingto being critical and having it
through kind of a critical lens.How about you? Yeah.
You know, just so the audience knows,we're recording this the weekend
(01:45):
after the Charlie Kirk assassination.And that is still very much like
ongoing 24 over seven in the news.And it's just very chilling and
very sad.And it's hard not to despair with
male violence exploding like this.Yeah, true.
(02:06):
Back in episode four,we actually said we would dedicate
a full episode to, you know,looking and understanding the
men's rights movements,but also the efforts to break in
down the norms of, you know,how do we raise our boys and our
expectation for young men? Yeah.To be better men.
(02:28):
And I think everyone is aware thatmasculinity and sort of norms for
men is changing very rapidly.But I think the sort of unknown
here is that we don't know whatit's turning into.
We know from where we come, more orless, but we don't know exactly where
we're headed in terms of masculinity.That's so true. So true.
(02:52):
And I want to let everybody knowthat's listening today that tomorrow,
November 19th, is International Men'sDay. You may not be aware of that.
I wasn't.This actually started back in 1999,
in the Caribbean. Actually, yeah.As a counter statement to
(03:14):
International Women's Day.And so is it about celebrating
positive manhood? Yes, it is now.It really is about celebrating
and appreciating and theguidance of boys and men.
But strangely,now it's actually sponsored and
(03:35):
run by an Australian religiouscharity called dads for kids.
And they have a mission to kind ofturn the tide on Fatherlessness.
I guess similar to like fathershere in the US.
Have dads be more involved basically.Yeah.
Which is that's a very positivething, I think.
(03:57):
When I went researching for thisepisode, I interviewed some people
on the subject of power aboutmasculinities, and I'm also about
to interview Australian researcherMichael Flood. And oh great. So?
So I'm kind of like immersed inthis at the moment, but I found an
American study by the organizationat Mondo about essentially State
(04:20):
of American men 2025, and I justfound it interesting to delve into
what men are saying about themselvesand manhood and masculinity.
And so that's kind of the angleI'm coming from today is just like
talking about how men themselvesare discussing this. Sure.
And I guess this is about yousaid American men.
(04:43):
It is about American men.I do think that there's so much
overlap and commonalities across theworld between men and men. Yeah.
Although there are some things thatare uniquely American for sure. Okay.
And so what did men have to sayabout themselves? I'm curious.
They kind of created,like for headlines as to like the
(05:08):
things that are top of mind of men.And so those things were.
And I'll just rattle them off thefour of them, and then we can
break it down and talk about it.But one of them were economic
anxiety.And your role as provider, that that
is just kind of being challenged.And there's insecurity about that and
(05:30):
nervousness about that and so on.So that's the role as provider
is kind of on the move.The second one is that masculinity as
a norm is becoming more restrictive.So like the man box as they call it,
is becoming more and more sort ofrigid as to what you're supposed to
(05:51):
be or not be. And it's kind of rigid.On emotional stoicism, dominance and
self-reliance that those things arekind of like ruling the man box. Hmm.
That surprises me a bit,because I think that it's been
rigid from the beginning.For a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(06:13):
But we can come back to that.And so and then number three is that
men feel isolated and pessimistic,and then that there is a good deal of
depression and loneliness issues.Are you had to bring up male
loneliness, didn't you? Yeah.You know, the issue of the male
loneliness epidemic is like all over,you know, social media.
(06:36):
And but I think it's worth talkingabout because I think there are
a lot of aspects to lonely men.Lonely, lonely men. Okay. Sorry.
We're being positive about men.I'm so sorry. Yeah. Get it together.
And the fourth sort of headliners.Too much time online.
And so it's about all of themessages and all of the effects
(07:00):
of boys and men spending anawful lot of time online.
If this was a bar chart forthose four items.
I would say that one would beskyrocketing. Yes.
So they had done this survey ofmen about what being a man is dot,
dot, dot.And so the top one was being
(07:22):
providing for my family.But then there was also a sort
of descending list from that.What being a man means.
And I think it's just so interesting.I am curious though, real quick,
is it because women are beingalso joint providers in the home?
Is it shaming them in some way?I think it's making the role of
(07:45):
provider more complex.I think they can no longer claim
it for themselves because,you know, 70% of mothers work and.
You know, a majority of householdsare two incomes, so they can't
carry that mantle any longer.And I think it provided them
(08:06):
with a lot of pride,but also a lot of power that.
Yes. They no longer have. Yeah.It was their complete identity,
the breadwinner.We talked about this in endless work.
And in a sense like that is onething that women have less of.
(08:28):
I don't think our our like,shame and pride is ass bound up
in the earning money pressure asmen are. Definitely not.
You and I have been singlemothers for a long time, raising
our children as single parents,where we are head of household,
where we are the sole earner forthe their family. Obviously. Yes.
(08:52):
I wanted to make sure I had thatincome.
It was more just logistics and,you know, making sure I can pay the
rent and stay in the house type ofthing. But it wasn't my identity.
It wasn't who I was as a woman.My job.
Although economic independencefrom men. That's a big one.
(09:13):
Yes, yes. Yes, definitely.So that's at the top of the list of
what being a man is for them, youknow. So I think that says so much.
But below that is being a friend,being strong, managing conflict
with communication, giving advice.Fatherhood is really high up.
(09:35):
Sharing care,work and housework is important.
Having a salaried job, being incharge, being a winner, having a
partner wife and then it goes on.But you know,
that gives you a picture.Yeah, A lot of men in this study
were frustrated with that.The American dream is out of reach.
They feel like, you know, no matterhow hard they work, you know,
(09:58):
a good portion of men can't excel.And, you know, you're stuck in lower
pay jobs or aren't able to get thethings for the money that you use
to get like a house and educationfor your children and so forth.
So I think there's a lot ofeconomic anxiety over that too.
Like the jobs and the money thatmen are able to make doesn't
(10:22):
provide them with status andpower the way it used to.
I mean,decades ago you would exit college,
which was not that expensive.You know, everyone kind of went
to college and it was affordable.And then you came out and most people
were getting married and buying ahouse. Yeah. In their early 20s.
You can't do that anymore.You've got even close of debt,
(10:45):
years of student debt, It,and most college grads moved back in
with one of their parents becauseit's so expensive. I mean, inflation.
Again, they're talking about theFed's going to raise the rates again.
We're not out of this economicanxious world that we're living
(11:05):
in right now.Know the meaning and purpose that
men found in being able to have thepower to buy a house and having so
much status through employment.I think the fact that that's not
possible anymore is taking a lotof meaning and a lot of purpose
out of life for men.Yes, there's a lot weighing on that.
(11:28):
So the whole masculinity isbecoming more restrictive.
And, you know,we were talking about this before
when you and I were discussingthis episode and we were saying,
how were Gen Xers grew up in the70s 80s and how gender bending.
The culture was we had all kindsof pop culture icons that were
(11:54):
not like Prince and David Bowieand Annie Lennox and.
Yeah, no, we were making progressback then, like in the late 60s and
then the 70s, heading into the 80s.Then it was like Wolf of Wall
Street type of mentality.Capitalism like,
became so strong and so influential.Getting rid of the hippie type
(12:19):
emotional man, more sensitive man.And suddenly the definition of
manhood changed in the 80s, 90s.And now it's been shifting again.
And is it a backlash?Is this a backlash?
Men on men on judging their manhood?Yeah, I mean, domination came into
(12:41):
vogue so hard again from that,you know, from Woody Allen,
Dustin Hoffman and all these,like, anti sexy, you know. Yes.
Male icons to Schwarzenegger andClint Eastwood.
It really did a complete U-turnaway from a softer, more socially
(13:07):
and emotionally attuned man.And all of a sudden that was
like out the window.And now it's not just regressing, but
the beliefs that are being espousedare so reactionary and so about
having power and control over women.I guess historians will look at this
and see the cyclical nature to it.
(13:38):
And then the third issue,which is that men feel isolated
and pessimistic about theirromantic prospects in particular.
Mhm mhm. Mhm mhm. Yeah.Let's talk about the male
loneliness epidemic.I think my knee jerk reaction when I
(13:59):
hear that is self-inflicted much.Yeah.
To insist on being dominating andkind of having a grandiose image of
manhood and yourself isn't goingto make you part of humanity.
To hold yourself above is notthe way to get an isolated.
(14:24):
I think for me, the whole maleloneliness is it's like a response
and a reaction to women's awakening.The fact that women have woken
up and said, no,we're not going to put up with that.
You don't meet the level or standard.That's important to me and I'm going
to say no. So we have boundaries.And to me it feels like a
(14:48):
response to that.And they're like,
but you have to take care of us.You have to want us as romantic
partners. They don't like that.We're saying no.
And I don't think they like that.They're being held accountable
in some sense,to cry loneliness is to fail,
to take accountability for theirown part in their own alienation.
(15:12):
Yeah, it's basically implying thatthe women have to be more caring
and help them out of this hole.It's almost like they're blaming us,
and we've got to fix the problem,too.
Yeah, and I think a lot of womenare just saying no to that, too.
Yeah, yeah. Take a good look.Hold the mirror up. Be accountable.
(15:34):
Be open and willing to changeyour ways.
Understand why we're saying nowall of this.
Do the work to become moreemotionally intelligent,
emotionally attuned, relational.Like Terry Real says, you know,
he's this famous psychotherapistwho works with men and couples on,
(15:56):
you know, male depression and awhole lot of other subjects.
He works with men to become morerelational,
and I think that is what it is about.There's a clip of a woman on
TikTok who talks about malealexithymia and alexithymia.
Yeah, I've never heard of that.It is the inability to name your
(16:21):
feelings, to articulate yourfeelings. Can we listen to that?
Oh, please play that. So spot on.Yeah. Here is Katie Hanlon.
Alexithymia is a psychologicalterm for not being able to name
or talk about your emotions.This doesn't mean you don't feel
the emotion.Men feel the emotion,
and they just don't know how to talkabout it or how to garner empathy
(16:42):
from each other about said emotion.That labor doesn't just go away.
It gets passed on to us.We deal with your emotions.
You're the lack of ability thatyou have to regulate yourself.
Our households live and die byyour insecurities. What?
We're allowed to talk about,all of these conversations we're
(17:03):
having about division of labor,um, emotional labor, mental load,
motherhood versus fatherhood.None of this fucking matters if
we're not addressing the problemunderneath, which is the fact that
men can't deal with their emotions,they can't label them,
they can't talk about them.And we are dying early. Wow.
(17:25):
I now have a new word like I'mgoing to start using that.
I never knew that that was a thing.And I think it's bigger than
what we understand.We're intensely social animals.
We communicate with words inother ways. You can't not sense.
You can't not have emotions. Mhm.There's no doubt that women have been
(17:48):
evolving and becoming more liberated.And I think men are failing to
keep up with us.And we're not waiting behind
anymore for men.We're just kind of moving on. Yeah.
So in that sense, like the onlypath left for men, I think, is to
follow women's lead and. Agree 100%.And get more relational. Yes.
(18:12):
But the other thing about theisolation thing is,
like we're apparently busy feelinga lot of sympathy for lonely men,
but women are isolated also.They complain about it as well.
There are high numbers of womenwho are depressed and isolated
and despairing in lots of ways.But we're not talking about that
(18:33):
because we accept that women suffer.That's so true.
Should we start the women'sloneliness epidemic? Yeah.
Although I think I think the thingsthat make women feel lonely and
isolated and despairing are not thesame as what makes men feel lonely,
for sure. I.e. the great divorce.If we were happy and fulfilled
(18:58):
and thriving in marriages,for example, then we wouldn't
have the great divorce, would we?
So the big one number for.Too much. Time online.
(19:22):
So many thoughts about this.We're all as humanity spending
too much time online.But what are the consequences?
And I think we're really seeingthat with a generation that has
grown up online. Yeah.This generation now born like 2007,
(19:43):
That generation. Yeah.They're becoming adults now.
Yeah. And it's kind of unfolding.Too much time online and also
anti-women or misogynist messagesbeing shared online, and where boys
and young men and even older menare getting fed a diet of hardened,
(20:08):
sort of misogynistic messages,anti-feminist, not to speak of
pornography, I consideredpornography misogynist propaganda.
It is the media that tells men whoconsume it that women are worthless
and can be used for their bodies andbeing sexually degraded and abused.
(20:32):
And so if men, young men and old.Both are constantly fed
misogynist messages.That's not going to go anywhere.
Good.No, and it isn't going anywhere good.
No. And it's.The thing is, if for any new parents,
I'm just worried for them.I'm worried about my kids having
(20:54):
children because they're notjust going to be the only ones
raising that child.The internet's going to be
raising the child.And it does remind me of a book
from 2002 by James Steyer calledThe Other Parent.
And I remember reading that,and it was basically like,
(21:15):
there's a stranger in your housethat your children are being
bombarded with, like images of sexand commercialism and violence.
But this was through TV.This was through the movies and
music and computer games.We didn't know, you know,
(21:36):
really. Where that was headed?Yeah. Where that was headed.
That was a real canary in thecoal mine because TV.
That would be a dream right nowif it was just TV.
Yeah, because they're not connectedto real people in real time.
Answering them back.You've got this huge community
out there of people that haveyour child's attention, and they
(21:59):
are raising them and arguably arehaving more influence on your child
than you are. And that's scary.Yeah, it absolutely is.
And in this study that we werereferencing before, they looked into
what are the narratives that menand boys are hearing online and in
(22:22):
a 2024 study on the manosphere.These are the messages that men
are picking up.Men have it harder than women when
it comes to new opportunities.Men can have their reputation
destroyed just for speakingtheir minds these days.
Things are generally better whenmen bring in money and women take
(22:45):
care of the home and the kids.So very regressive.
You know, feminism is aboutfavoring women over men.
61% of men believe that you mustbe an alpha male these days.
To get a partner is a popular belief.Oh, gosh.
More masculine energy is neededin the workplace.
(23:06):
Another really popular belief.Unreal.
And the kind of winner takes all.For one group to succeed,
one has to lose. Uh, yeah.And we're seeing that divisiveness.
And pick a side.And these online spaces are
radicalizing young men.It's not just giving them ideas.
(23:28):
It's cult like. It's signing them up.I think the manosphere also believes
that men are the oppressed class.Yes.
And they bond through this kindof shared misogynistic and
racist attitude.That there is a certain, like
aggrieved entitlement, that they'refeeling kind of righteously angry,
(23:51):
that things have are being taken awayfrom them that belong to them. Right.
There's some kind of anxiety aroundthe fact that they perceive their
losses in social status. Yes.In fact,
there's I came across this clip.Her handle is T Sierra,
(24:12):
author on TikTok.She's talking about there was an
article in New York Times thattalked about that.
White men are getting a lot lessaccolades in literature these days.
They're not getting picked forliterary prizes anymore.
And so she went looking.She went researching into like the
(24:35):
top. Kind of literary process.And she found it to be entirely
untrue.Oh, in fact, we can just hear the
clip and she tells the story.Sorry, where are the biggest
prizes in English literature?Like none of these articles
published in the last six monthsmention even mention the Pulitzer
(24:56):
in the US or the Booker in the UK.So I went and looked at the last
decade of winners and it became veryclear why they don't mention it.
It's because a completely,it completely and utterly undermines
this idea that the men are vanishing,that they aren't getting the awards.
In the last ten years,men have won the Pulitzer.
75% of the time, 75% of the time.Okay, straight white men have
(25:17):
won it 25% of the time,which is equal to the total number of
women who have won, all women whohave won it in the last ten years.
No women of color won the prizein the last decade.
The Booker was an itty bitty bitmore diverse.
Women of color tied one year,which meant that men.
Won about 70% of the time.So much for disappearing.
(25:41):
And it meant that straight whitemen won 25% of the time,
which is the same number aswhite women, the same the same
number of times as white women.So not so much. Not vanishing.
No men are dominating in thatmarket in those prizes.
If anything, it seems to me toshow bias for prizes toward men.
(26:05):
I think this is an example ofwhen you're used to everything
looking like you.Even the slightest change can feel
like an extinction level event canfeel like a lack of representation.
You know, it's interesting tothink that you have this like,
anger out there in men that's sayingthings are being taken away from us
or we're not getting the flowers thatwe deserve. And it was baseless.
(26:28):
Completely baseless. Yeah.I mean, that's the thing about
everything on the internet, too.It's just clickbait or they
sensationalize things.Maybe there's an element of truth
and then they run with it andvery quickly that gains traction.
And it's based on nothing.And that's concerning.
(27:00):
These manosphere online groups Iwanted to go through a few of them,
talk about them.So obviously we have the incels.
Yeah. Meaning involuntarily celibate.And they really blame women and
society for finding it difficultto enter romantic relationships.
Yeah. They blame.They have this whole system of
(27:22):
beliefs that's very,very superficial.
Believes that only, like top percentof males get women and that they're
not good looking enough or richenough or fit enough to get women,
and they're like, embittered over it.Yeah, they're all grouping together
online and complaining about this.And again, that sparks kind of a
(27:44):
hatred and misogynistic attitude.In fact, we have plenty of violent
episodes with incels who havecommitted mass murder in the name of.
Yeah, there are other manosphereonline groups.
There's the pickup artists pose,and they attempt to really kind of
(28:04):
seduce women through manipulation.But it's all like a game.
It's just to be the more powerfulsex and string women along.
To, like, gamify relationshipswith women in this way, to think
that it's all cynical, cruel game.If you think that is going to be
(28:31):
a place where men thrive,where are you going with that?
Well, they end up leading intomen's rights activists, the MRAs
and the fathers rights activists.Those are two very powerful and
influential groups.I think this is a dead end road,
man. Yeah.To, like, hang on to your, like,
(28:54):
superiority and entitlements andinsist on dominating women.
It's just not going to end well.Yeah, I don't want to ignore the
other group called the men goingtheir own way. Groups. Oh, sure.
So they are centering women in aresponse to feminism and the way
feminism is centering men.So men going their own way.
(29:17):
Lots of online chat groups aboutthat.
I really think what's missing,and maybe it's not missing. You know.
I do know many, both men and women,who are really working towards a
positive vision for boys and men.And that's what's needed here,
(29:38):
is that men who have a vision ofa more positive, open,
emotionally intelligent manhood.Why can't those men, those healthy,
balanced, good role model men,be the ones that are soaring in
the news and everywhere?Why does it have to be the Nick
(30:03):
Fonterra's the Charlie Kirks,the Andrew Tay?
Obviously Charlie Kirk's deceasednow. Why did they have a wider reach?
You know these influencers,they're young, like they started
in their 20s, all of them.And were able to capture
Literally a sitting,waiting audience of young men who
(30:27):
were looking for a role model.And personally,
I think Andrew Tate is the leastof our problems because some of
these kind of either alt rightor far right white nationalists,
this movement, they are veryinfluential and honestly playing
a significant role in moving likethis political culture to being
(30:51):
more radical and more violent.The whole thing about violence, I
feel in some sense like it's a waterwe all swim in in America at least.
I went to see a movie the other day.I went to see Naked Gun,
but I sat through, you know,as you do 15 minutes or more of the
trailers, and it was an assault,one trailer after the other,
(31:15):
with big muscly guy of this flavorof that flavor they all, like,
blurred together to me with big guns,big explosions.
It was just 20 minutes of absolutecarnage and also at the same time,
male worship.So this is the diet,
(31:36):
this is the media diet.And so I think there's a lot of
responsibility on Hollywood.This is what we're fed.
Yeah, exactly.We have had decades and decades
and decades of this, of Hollywoodshowing us that all problems get
(31:57):
resolved with violence and guns.And then you win the woman.
And then you win the woman.We have to have a complete
paradigm shift in all of this.Something major has to change.
When are we going to serve ourchildren and our young adults,
our young men, and help them lead amore fulfilling and save for life.
(32:22):
Make the case that this is notgood for men either.
This is a violent hierarchicalsystem where we all lose.
It's not just women.You all lose out on being a
human being by this patriarchy.That would be the paradigm shift
(32:45):
when men under patriarchy havethat realization and see that,
and that has to change from within.But, you know, funny enough,
in this study,one of the top things that gave men
meaning and purpose was marriage.Being in a relationship with the
(33:05):
woman, or being able to be in arelationship with a woman, and also
fatherhood. So it's very paradoxical.You want to dominate.
You want to be on top.You want to rule everybody,
but you also your top wishes inlife or the things that give you
meaning are relationships.Your intimate connection with a
(33:28):
partner and having a family andchildren and devote yourself to
fatherhood.Yes, yes, actually, NBC had a
little clip about the differencesand the views of what was top of
mind and most meaningful for thedifference between men and women.
And it was very different.And men had the marriage and the
(33:50):
children up right up top.Gen Z men under 30 who voted for
Donald Trump,what were they most likely to
say makes for a successful life?Having children number one women.
Gen Z voted for Kamala Harris.Where's have it? Wow.
All the way down here at the bottom.Couldn't be more opposite.
Second to last for women who votedfor Harris. Was being married.
(34:12):
Being married. Look at this.Near the top of the list for men
who voted for Donald Trump.Another huge difference.
A very common answer for Gen Z.Women who voted for Harris was having
emotional stability for Gen Z,men who voted for Donald Trump.
You got to go all the way to thebottom to find that one.
These are some core basic questionsabout how people think about life.
And you can see here this risinggeneration in this country very
(34:36):
far apart.I think most men understand that
the solution is in intimateconnection and relationships,
even if they aren't able to constructa world or deconstruct masculinity
in order to access those vital,vital relationships and connections.
(35:13):
So the fifth item was violence,right? Yes.
The fifth item was violence.But of course it's like it's so
much bigger.I look at this like latest
disaster with the Charlie Kirkassassination and another gun
control conversation back to that,which is so the the refrain in
(35:34):
America, whenever something likethis happens and I feel like it's
always turns into this virulentright left discussion and no one
ever talks about male violence.We just stop pointing fingers, adding
left or right or mental health.They'll always throw that one in
(35:55):
there. Yeah.Then we circle the drain until the
next big event, or the next massshooting, or the next assassination.
And then we we react again to it,you know, in the same way.
Madness, madness, madness,madness. Yeah.
But you're saying as item five ofthis survey that men recognize
(36:15):
Knives. This they're saying.This is one of the issues of the
problem with masculinity and thestruggles of men.
So they're aware of their violence.Sure.
And they're also aware in anAmerican context.
You know,they're aware of firearms and guns
in connection with male violence.And, of course, you know, just
(36:38):
because men know that violence is aproblem doesn't mean that they are
rolling up their sleeves to solve it.No, it reminds me of the essay by
Michael Kaufman on the triad of men'sviolence that violence against women
(36:58):
is connected to violence againstother men, which is connected to
violence against themselves. Yeah.As in, like suicide or turning
that violence inwards.They're in a triangle together.
And I would love to actuallyplay a clip from Jackson Katz.
(37:18):
I love him, I think he's right on.Yeah, he's really kind of
explaining about this violence thatmen experience from other men,
leading them to have these issues.I made the connections between
all these forms of violence,and feminists have been making
these connections, even thoughcentering women's and girls
(37:40):
experience is critical, obviously.And it's a it's the it's the
central feminist project.It's it's broader than that.
And so the reason why I'm sayingthis is if we want to talk about
building male out, you know,men getting men to start standing
with women and feminists,if you say to them, you know what?
Feminists have been talkingabout this for decades.
The feminists care about men'sviolence against men.
(38:00):
Feminists care about boys,for example, growing up in homes
where their father abuses theirmother and traumatizing the kids.
You know how many boys and menhave been victims?
Like how many boys and men'smothers have been murdered by
their fathers or their mothersboyfriends and the trauma,
the incredible loss and sadness.How many men, by the way?
Not just boys, but how manyadult men, myself included,
(38:21):
have women in our lives who have beenvictims of other men's violence?
I mean, the idea that somehowit's anti male to challenge men's
violence and to try to changesystemic practices around, you know,
sexism, that somehow it's anti male.It's just to me it's so
intellectually dishonest anddisingenuous.
You can't talk about theviolence we're seeing out here
(38:43):
all around us without talkingabout the normalization of it.
We're watching a genocide on oursocial media.
We're watching all kinds of reallyhorrific, isolated and patterned
events, mass and individualviolence on our phones, which has a
(39:03):
normalizing effect on all of us.Well, we're not built either to
process any of that as human beings.We're not wired for it like
we're really not.Know and our children are seeing
this stuff real time.Also, as long as they have a
smartphone in their hand.So many people, young people saw
(39:26):
the clip of Charlie Kirk beforeit started getting censored.
That started going around theinternet pretty quickly and there was
no protection against seeing that,and that has an impact.
We don't know how to handle adeath like that before our eyes.
Know and just again, to,you know, to remind ourselves.
(39:48):
Human beings are wired forintimate connection.
We are intensely social creaturesthat survive and thrive only when
we're connected to other people.And we have these intricate care
structures in our brains and inour bodies that Require nurturing,
(40:12):
that require care, that requireother people to care for us.
And the shock to the human system oflike seeing this kind of brutality.
You really can't overestimatehow damaging it is.
So this cycle, I think the cycle ofviolence, if young boys are being
(40:39):
influenced online or they saw andwitnessed violence as a child,
then they become the perpetratorof violence as they are older and
then their children see it andthen they do it. When does it end?
What stops this cycle fromcontinuing?
Yeah, again, I think the remedy forthis is to connect men to other
(41:05):
humans, to bring them into community,bring them into family,
bring them into relationship,into intimate connection with
all of the people around them.We can't afford to have
alienated men.Some of it is self-inflicted
alienation.If you insist on dominating everyone,
(41:29):
or you insist that you are betterthan everyone, or you have the
right to control other people,than you are going to be lonely.
And so I think men somehow needto come around to that.
They need to approach otherhuman beings, some life,
maybe with more humility.Yeah, we need a mass awakening
(41:51):
for men. For sure, for sure.But I also do think as masculinity is
in a place where it's being redefinedand deconstructed and all of that,
I do think it's an opportunity formale leaders and for men in general,
to reshape what it means to be man,reshape purpose, reshape meaning,
(42:12):
and do the hard work,the emotional work that's needed to
build back healthy, so to speak.Yeah, and they've really got to have
the courage to go against the grain,to know that they're not going to fit
in, but they would be able to finda sense of belonging if they do.
(42:34):
Actually,Brené Brown has a great piece on
just understanding the differencebetween belonging and fitting in.
I was so shocked to learn in theresearch that the opposite of
belonging is fitting in,because fitting in is assessing
a group of people and thinking,who do I need to be?
What do I need to say?What do I need to wear?
How do I need to act?And changing who you are and
(42:57):
true belonging never asks us tochange who we are.
It demands that we be who we are.Because if we if we if we fit in.
Because how we've changed ourselves.That's not belonging.
That's not belonging.Because you betrayed yourself
for other people.And that's not sustainable.
(43:19):
That is such an importantdistinction.
The conforming versus belonging.And if you go back to talking about
what we were talking about withboys spending too much time online
and having that influence, they'relooking to fit in somewhere, which
is not the sense of who they are.You're not going within and their
(43:42):
physical community around them.Their influences around them in
real life, not online to have themfind that sense of belonging.
They're changing themselves tofit in. And so it's the opposite.
And it I think it's leaving themfragile and vulnerable. Absolutely.
(44:03):
And perhaps they are doingViolent acts or mass shootings.
I mean, you can't.It's not sustainable. As Brené says.
It reminds me of something.This interview with Michael
Conroy that I did.That was a great interview,
by the way. Oh thank you.I really love the work that he's
doing. He.He really doesn't like jargon and
(44:26):
labels, and he's really one forjust calling things concretely
and specifically what they are.He spoke about that boys and
young men have the same needs aseverybody else does.
They want to be seen and knownand recognized for who they are.
(44:49):
Exactly, exactly. Women.We know that about each other.
We know that need in us.And I think men need to come
home to that in a real way.I think that our culture and society
has to offer an environment tomake them feel safe, to be that
(45:09):
way and to show up that way.Yes, I absolutely agree with you,
but I also do think that we needmale leaders to, like,
metabolize these messages and likeJackson Katz or Michael Conroy or
Michael Flood or a whole lot ofother people that can talk to men
and can help change the culture.I don't think it's on women
(45:32):
necessarily. No no no no no.This is a man's issue to experience
and to solve as well. Yeah.Although no one will be as happy
and grateful as women for men tostart doing this deconstruction of
patriarchy on masculinity and empowerthemselves to be more relational.
(45:55):
In fact, I have another clip from, hegoes by Solid 7 on TikTok, and
she has this great kind of meditationon like I was not born hating man.
But she talks about that herexperiences shaped her,
how she felt about men.I think in some sense, like she's
(46:16):
really holding on to like a lovefor men, but so many experiences
have beaten it out of her and I.I so, so relate to that.
It means that I still don't hate men.There's a difference between
hating them and also feelinglike I need to protect and
defend myself against them.I don't think you need to hate them,
(46:38):
to not want to be around them,like there is a certain level of fear
and awareness I have now that is nottied to hate. That's too much energy.
What I do need to use my energyfor is to protect myself and
make sure that I'm not overexerting myself or putting
myself in dangerous situationsto the best of my abilities.
When I am engaging with men andfor short stints of time,
(47:01):
I can enjoy being around them,but I don't let it lead to hope
anymore at all. Not.Not in the hope that they will
be a good friend.Not in the hope that they will
be a good lover.Not in the hope that they will be a
good short term or long term partner.I don't have that hope anymore.
That has been crushed and dissolved.I relate to that too.
(47:22):
Completely. Yeah, completely.I mean, I've dissented men now for
three years and counting, but attimes, sure, I miss having a good,
healthy man in my life, but for me,there's no going back now.
Sad to say,but where you've just given up. Yeah.
Or you make do with the nonpartner men you have around you,
(47:46):
which I have many in my life,whether it's like sports coaches
or workmates or collaborators orwhatever. Yeah, yeah.
That's close enough for me.Yeah. Yeah.
There's a 4 billion strongcheering section here on Earth.
(48:06):
Just hoping you guys are gonnabe met.
Men across the world,the other 4 billion are going to
turn it around and be human with us.
(48:28):
So one interesting part of thestudy was that men overwhelmingly
support care policies, meaningthings like paid parental leave,
child tax relief,subsidized elder and child care.
Like there's an overwhelmingamount of male support for those
(48:49):
type of policies.And I think that's indicates a
lot that men think deeply abouttheir children's future and are
occupied with care.And I think that's a really
positive thing.Some of the sort of solutions
that women do is suggesting atthe end of their report is to
(49:15):
heed this instinct by men to careabout caregiving and fatherhood,
and that there's a lot that can bedone to make a path for men to take
on a bigger role in caregiving,whether that is as a father, as a
(49:36):
son, as a partner, or anything elseinside their family or their clan.
That we ease that path,that we economically and
politically make that possible.Yes, actually, I was listening
to Melinda French Gates talkabout that on a podcast, too.
We have to stop calling it maternityleave and just give women time off
(49:58):
that we have to invest in parentalleave, shared parental leave for
that first year that we really arealso acknowledging the having the
man be home and supporting thefamily altogether financially,
so that the man and the woman canbe home, will completely change
(50:20):
the dynamics of the fathers rolein the children's lives and ease
things up for the woman who's justgone through the physical being
pregnant and giving birth again,just a paradigm shift of switching
the way we think about things,to say no, this is an investment
(50:43):
into a future generation.100%, and also make a role with
dignity that is the helpmate ofthe mother and as in matriarchal
societies as we know, that isn'talways the biological father.
That is often the mother's brother.I would love to see, like the role
(51:07):
of the uncle really get promoted,or for men to step into helpmate
roles that are really importantfor bringing up young. 100%.
The other thing they mentionedis supporting young men through
mentorship,coaching and apprenticeship.
(51:29):
And I think that's kind of likeno brainer.
Yeah, young men need positiverole models, no question.
Of good positive role models andinfluences. Not bad ones.
If you haven't got that mentorat home, you can have that
outside of the home in a good,healthy, structured way.
Yeah, having an emotional literacyand brotherhood, building, that kind
(51:52):
of connection and communicationfor men And we'll definitely put
some links in the show notes togroups like the Men's Collective,
ReMasculine, Mankind Project, XY Online, just to
name a few resources. Yeah, but.I have to ask you, other than
(52:13):
positive men influencing young boys.What are your thoughts on woman only
household raising a feminist son?Just women raising boys as you say.
If there was like an influenceof a of an uncle or somebody.
Peripheral men, role models,but not a male household. Yeah.
(52:38):
I mean, I feel a lot ofdifferent ways about this.
I mean, it is absolutely known,like in traditionally matriarchal
societies, that the males whohave the larger roles in child
rearing and care are the mothers,brothers Biological connection in
that sounds like in matriarchalsocieties, the child belongs to the
(53:01):
mother in matrilineal societies.And so the brothers are on the
mother's side, so they are thedirect kin connection to the child,
whereas the bio father is justnot considered so vital.
But aside from that,we live in the patriarchy.
We can't, you know, there's noescaping in this structure.
(53:22):
The patriarchy is not going toend in our lifetimes.
So let's say this I think it's ashame that sons have their
identification and connection withtheir mothers severed so early.
That is just something thathappens in patriarchy.
Essentially, the messages theyget is that women are weak,
(53:44):
embarrassing, bad.Whatever you do,
don't be like a woman.And of course their mother is a
woman.So that's severing between mothers
and sons so early in the son's life,and that he then gets absorbed by
the patriarchy away from his motheris bad for men. It's traumatizing.
(54:06):
Yeah, it's traumatizing.And it's bad for boys. Yeah.
Boys need identification with theirmother and intimate connection
with their mother for a long time,just like girls do. Yeah.
I love Sonora Jha, who wrote thebook How to Raise a Feminist Son.
And she, in her book dedication,like in the front cover,
(54:27):
she says it's a love story forfeminists who hope to change the
world one boy at a time.Let's play a clip real quick from
Sonora. Why she wrote the book.When I had my baby, I, you know,
I was so terrified that he wouldgrow up to be like the the men
that I had grown up around.Violent men, um, you know,
(54:48):
men with insecure egos and fragileegos that I realized I needed
him to be a feminist and to seea woman's place in the world to
uphold the full humanity of women.I love that this is such an important
message to mothers of every kind.Like your connection to your son,
(55:11):
your son's connection with you.Have you heard of the Icelandic
Hijali Model? Yeah. Yes.So there's this basically is a
preschool program in Iceland that istrying to combat sex stereotypes.
Well, that's the key. Key? Yeah.They do it really early to prevent
(55:32):
the children adopting, like thesetraditional sex based roles.
They separate the boys and girlsthroughout the day.
So the boys are all up in one groupand the girls are in another.
And the girls are encouraged to show,like, their physical strength and
their boldness and be direct,teaching them how to be direct,
(55:54):
and they do more physical thingsoutside and yelling.
And the boys are inside andthey're engage them into like
caring and nurturing activities todevelop their emotional skills.
Why is it that Iceland comes upwith all the good things?
Well, we said that in our Mad Menepisode, we said that Iceland ranks
(56:19):
number one for sex equality, right?Yeah, well,
this is how you do it worldwide.So yeah, this program has been
going for 30 years.They've actually on their website.
They have data on their results thatdoing this in preschool helps them,
like the rest of their academic life,that their reading fluency is higher,
(56:40):
they're scoring higher,that there's actually less noise in
the classroom and distractions fromthe boys through the older grades.
I think again, like as a society,we need to be looking at this.
We need to adopt some of thesemodels. 100%.
(57:01):
Yeah,that is the way forward right there.
And I've always personallythought teaching mindfulness and
meditation in preschool, inelementary even teaching compassion.
Honestly if we had K through 12compassion as a core subject like
math and English and social studies,I think we would be raising a
(57:25):
different type of generation.I couldn't agree more.
It's an embodiment approach tohumanity and life in that we're
not separating our brains fromour bodies. It is all one.
Our mindfulness is in the how wecare for our bodies and our
(57:46):
whole neurobiology.It is something that we all need
to kind of relearn.If we did that kind of teaching,
it would be addressing the rootcause versus what we're trying to
do right now, which is address thesymptoms of a society. So true.
Well, there's some encouragingthings to think about, and we
(58:09):
would love your input, as always,to let us know what you think, too.
There's a whole lot more to talkabout.
I feel like we only scratchedthe surface of like,
manhood masculinities, manosphere,like all of the things.
Well, until next November.Happy international men's day.
Happy international men's day.All right, bye for now. Bye for.
(58:32):
Now. Yeah. Hi. Hi. Hi.Thank you for listening to Chat
In The Commons.We would love to hear from you
about anything we talked abouton this episode.
You can reach us via our social mediaon our website: chatinthecommons.com.
(58:53):
You can also find links to allthe resources mentioned in this
episode in the show notes.If you like what we're doing here,
please share with all your friends.And the best way to support our work
is to follow us on your podcast app.Chat In The Commons is produced by
me, Elle Kamihira and Natalie Blundell.Audio engineering by Jason
(59:17):
Sheelsey at Abridged Audio.Artwork by Reda Tomingas,
Music by Midnight Door and themesong by Moushumi.
You got no conscience,so I'll do it again. And.
(59:40):
I'll do it again and again and again.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha!Ha ha ha ha!
Welcome to Chat in the Commons,where we tear it all down.
(00:29):
One sensible conversation at a time.I'm Natalie Blundell, I'm in the
corporate world and also the founderof an online women's support
community. And I'm Elle Kamihira.I'm a documentary producer and
podcast host.
(00:56):
Welcome everyone.We're going to talk about men today.
Boys are men.I guess it's just a change up,
because, you know,a lot of our episodes are based
on feminism and women's rightsand looking at everything
through a woman's perspective.Yeah, the focus is going to be
on men, but we're still lookingat it through a feminist lens.
That's that's true. Unavoidable.I'm afraid I'm coming into the mic a
(01:21):
little bit here, because secret iswhen I was researching this episode,
I had a really hard time thinking ofthings positive to say about men
and boys, and I kept defaultingto being critical and having it
through kind of a critical lens.How about you? Yeah.
You know, just so the audience knows,we're recording this the weekend
(01:45):
after the Charlie Kirk assassination.And that is still very much like
ongoing 24 over seven in the news.And it's just very chilling and
very sad.And it's hard not to despair with
male violence exploding like this.Yeah, true.
(02:06):
Back in episode four,we actually said we would dedicate
a full episode to, you know,looking and understanding the
men's rights movements,but also the efforts to break in
down the norms of, you know,how do we raise our boys and our
expectation for young men? Yeah.To be better men.
(02:28):
And I think everyone is aware thatmasculinity and sort of norms for
men is changing very rapidly.But I think the sort of unknown
here is that we don't know whatit's turning into.
We know from where we come, more orless, but we don't know exactly where
we're headed in terms of masculinity.That's so true. So true.
(02:52):
And I want to let everybody knowthat's listening today that tomorrow,
November 19th, is International Men'sDay. You may not be aware of that.
I wasn't.This actually started back in 1999,
in the Caribbean. Actually, yeah.As a counter statement to
(03:14):
International Women's Day.And so is it about celebrating
positive manhood? Yes, it is now.It really is about celebrating
and appreciating and theguidance of boys and men.
But strangely,now it's actually sponsored and
(03:35):
run by an Australian religiouscharity called dads for kids.
And they have a mission to kind ofturn the tide on Fatherlessness.
I guess similar to like fathershere in the US.
Have dads be more involved basically.Yeah.
Which is that's a very positivething, I think.
(03:57):
When I went researching for thisepisode, I interviewed some people
on the subject of power aboutmasculinities, and I'm also about
to interview Australian researcherMichael Flood. And oh great. So?
So I'm kind of like immersed inthis at the moment, but I found an
American study by the organizationat Mondo about essentially State
(04:20):
of American men 2025, and I justfound it interesting to delve into
what men are saying about themselvesand manhood and masculinity.
And so that's kind of the angleI'm coming from today is just like
talking about how men themselvesare discussing this. Sure.
And I guess this is about yousaid American men.
(04:43):
It is about American men.I do think that there's so much
overlap and commonalities across theworld between men and men. Yeah.
Although there are some things thatare uniquely American for sure. Okay.
And so what did men have to sayabout themselves? I'm curious.
They kind of created,like for headlines as to like the
(05:08):
things that are top of mind of men.And so those things were.
And I'll just rattle them off thefour of them, and then we can
break it down and talk about it.But one of them were economic
anxiety.And your role as provider, that that
is just kind of being challenged.And there's insecurity about that and
(05:30):
nervousness about that and so on.So that's the role as provider
is kind of on the move.The second one is that masculinity as
a norm is becoming more restrictive.So like the man box as they call it,
is becoming more and more sort ofrigid as to what you're supposed to
(05:51):
be or not be. And it's kind of rigid.On emotional stoicism, dominance and
self-reliance that those things arekind of like ruling the man box. Hmm.
That surprises me a bit,because I think that it's been
rigid from the beginning.For a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(06:13):
But we can come back to that.And so and then number three is that
men feel isolated and pessimistic,and then that there is a good deal of
depression and loneliness issues.Are you had to bring up male
loneliness, didn't you? Yeah.You know, the issue of the male
loneliness epidemic is like all over,you know, social media.
(06:36):
And but I think it's worth talkingabout because I think there are
a lot of aspects to lonely men.Lonely, lonely men. Okay. Sorry.
We're being positive about men.I'm so sorry. Yeah. Get it together.
And the fourth sort of headliners.Too much time online.
And so it's about all of themessages and all of the effects
(07:00):
of boys and men spending anawful lot of time online.
If this was a bar chart forthose four items.
I would say that one would beskyrocketing. Yes.
So they had done this survey ofmen about what being a man is dot,
dot, dot.And so the top one was being
(07:22):
providing for my family.But then there was also a sort
of descending list from that.What being a man means.
And I think it's just so interesting.I am curious though, real quick,
is it because women are beingalso joint providers in the home?
Is it shaming them in some way?I think it's making the role of
(07:45):
provider more complex.I think they can no longer claim
it for themselves because,you know, 70% of mothers work and.
You know, a majority of householdsare two incomes, so they can't
carry that mantle any longer.And I think it provided them
(08:06):
with a lot of pride,but also a lot of power that.
Yes. They no longer have. Yeah.It was their complete identity,
the breadwinner.We talked about this in endless work.
And in a sense like that is onething that women have less of.
(08:28):
I don't think our our like,shame and pride is ass bound up
in the earning money pressure asmen are. Definitely not.
You and I have been singlemothers for a long time, raising
our children as single parents,where we are head of household,
where we are the sole earner forthe their family. Obviously. Yes.
(08:52):
I wanted to make sure I had thatincome.
It was more just logistics and,you know, making sure I can pay the
rent and stay in the house type ofthing. But it wasn't my identity.
It wasn't who I was as a woman.My job.
Although economic independencefrom men. That's a big one.
(09:13):
Yes, yes. Yes, definitely.So that's at the top of the list of
what being a man is for them, youknow. So I think that says so much.
But below that is being a friend,being strong, managing conflict
with communication, giving advice.Fatherhood is really high up.
(09:35):
Sharing care,work and housework is important.
Having a salaried job, being incharge, being a winner, having a
partner wife and then it goes on.But you know,
that gives you a picture.Yeah, A lot of men in this study
were frustrated with that.The American dream is out of reach.
They feel like, you know, no matterhow hard they work, you know,
(09:58):
a good portion of men can't excel.And, you know, you're stuck in lower
pay jobs or aren't able to get thethings for the money that you use
to get like a house and educationfor your children and so forth.
So I think there's a lot ofeconomic anxiety over that too.
Like the jobs and the money thatmen are able to make doesn't
(10:22):
provide them with status andpower the way it used to.
I mean,decades ago you would exit college,
which was not that expensive.You know, everyone kind of went
to college and it was affordable.And then you came out and most people
were getting married and buying ahouse. Yeah. In their early 20s.
You can't do that anymore.You've got even close of debt,
(10:45):
years of student debt, It,and most college grads moved back in
with one of their parents becauseit's so expensive. I mean, inflation.
Again, they're talking about theFed's going to raise the rates again.
We're not out of this economicanxious world that we're living
(11:05):
in right now.Know the meaning and purpose that
men found in being able to have thepower to buy a house and having so
much status through employment.I think the fact that that's not
possible anymore is taking a lotof meaning and a lot of purpose
out of life for men.Yes, there's a lot weighing on that.
(11:28):
So the whole masculinity isbecoming more restrictive.
And, you know,we were talking about this before
when you and I were discussingthis episode and we were saying,
how were Gen Xers grew up in the70s 80s and how gender bending.
The culture was we had all kindsof pop culture icons that were
(11:54):
not like Prince and David Bowieand Annie Lennox and.
Yeah, no, we were making progressback then, like in the late 60s and
then the 70s, heading into the 80s.Then it was like Wolf of Wall
Street type of mentality.Capitalism like,
became so strong and so influential.Getting rid of the hippie type
(12:19):
emotional man, more sensitive man.And suddenly the definition of
manhood changed in the 80s, 90s.And now it's been shifting again.
And is it a backlash?Is this a backlash?
Men on men on judging their manhood?Yeah, I mean, domination came into
(12:41):
vogue so hard again from that,you know, from Woody Allen,
Dustin Hoffman and all these,like, anti sexy, you know. Yes.
Male icons to Schwarzenegger andClint Eastwood.
It really did a complete U-turnaway from a softer, more socially
(13:07):
and emotionally attuned man.And all of a sudden that was
like out the window.And now it's not just regressing, but
the beliefs that are being espousedare so reactionary and so about
having power and control over women.I guess historians will look at this
and see the cyclical nature to it.
(13:38):
And then the third issue,which is that men feel isolated
and pessimistic about theirromantic prospects in particular.
Mhm mhm. Mhm mhm. Yeah.Let's talk about the male
loneliness epidemic.I think my knee jerk reaction when I
(13:59):
hear that is self-inflicted much.Yeah.
To insist on being dominating andkind of having a grandiose image of
manhood and yourself isn't goingto make you part of humanity.
To hold yourself above is notthe way to get an isolated.
(14:24):
I think for me, the whole maleloneliness is it's like a response
and a reaction to women's awakening.The fact that women have woken
up and said, no,we're not going to put up with that.
You don't meet the level or standard.That's important to me and I'm going
to say no. So we have boundaries.And to me it feels like a
(14:48):
response to that.And they're like,
but you have to take care of us.You have to want us as romantic
partners. They don't like that.We're saying no.
And I don't think they like that.They're being held accountable
in some sense,to cry loneliness is to fail,
to take accountability for theirown part in their own alienation.
(15:12):
Yeah, it's basically implying thatthe women have to be more caring
and help them out of this hole.It's almost like they're blaming us,
and we've got to fix the problem,too.
Yeah, and I think a lot of womenare just saying no to that, too.
Yeah, yeah. Take a good look.Hold the mirror up. Be accountable.
(15:34):
Be open and willing to changeyour ways.
Understand why we're saying nowall of this.
Do the work to become moreemotionally intelligent,
emotionally attuned, relational.Like Terry Real says, you know,
he's this famous psychotherapistwho works with men and couples on,
(15:56):
you know, male depression and awhole lot of other subjects.
He works with men to become morerelational,
and I think that is what it is about.There's a clip of a woman on
TikTok who talks about malealexithymia and alexithymia.
Yeah, I've never heard of that.It is the inability to name your
(16:21):
feelings, to articulate yourfeelings. Can we listen to that?
Oh, please play that. So spot on.Yeah. Here is Katie Hanlon.
Alexithymia is a psychologicalterm for not being able to name
or talk about your emotions.This doesn't mean you don't feel
the emotion.Men feel the emotion,
and they just don't know how to talkabout it or how to garner empathy
(16:42):
from each other about said emotion.That labor doesn't just go away.
It gets passed on to us.We deal with your emotions.
You're the lack of ability thatyou have to regulate yourself.
Our households live and die byyour insecurities. What?
We're allowed to talk about,all of these conversations we're
(17:03):
having about division of labor,um, emotional labor, mental load,
motherhood versus fatherhood.None of this fucking matters if
we're not addressing the problemunderneath, which is the fact that
men can't deal with their emotions,they can't label them,
they can't talk about them.And we are dying early. Wow.
(17:25):
I now have a new word like I'mgoing to start using that.
I never knew that that was a thing.And I think it's bigger than
what we understand.We're intensely social animals.
We communicate with words inother ways. You can't not sense.
You can't not have emotions. Mhm.There's no doubt that women have been
(17:48):
evolving and becoming more liberated.And I think men are failing to
keep up with us.And we're not waiting behind
anymore for men.We're just kind of moving on. Yeah.
So in that sense, like the onlypath left for men, I think, is to
follow women's lead and. Agree 100%.And get more relational. Yes.
(18:12):
But the other thing about theisolation thing is,
like we're apparently busy feelinga lot of sympathy for lonely men,
but women are isolated also.They complain about it as well.
There are high numbers of womenwho are depressed and isolated
and despairing in lots of ways.But we're not talking about that
(18:33):
because we accept that women suffer.That's so true.
Should we start the women'sloneliness epidemic? Yeah.
Although I think I think the thingsthat make women feel lonely and
isolated and despairing are not thesame as what makes men feel lonely,
for sure. I.e. the great divorce.If we were happy and fulfilled
(18:58):
and thriving in marriages,for example, then we wouldn't
have the great divorce, would we?
So the big one number for.Too much. Time online.
(19:22):
So many thoughts about this.We're all as humanity spending
too much time online.But what are the consequences?
And I think we're really seeingthat with a generation that has
grown up online. Yeah.This generation now born like 2007,
(19:43):
That generation. Yeah.They're becoming adults now.
Yeah. And it's kind of unfolding.Too much time online and also
anti-women or misogynist messagesbeing shared online, and where boys
and young men and even older menare getting fed a diet of hardened,
(20:08):
sort of misogynistic messages,anti-feminist, not to speak of
pornography, I consideredpornography misogynist propaganda.
It is the media that tells men whoconsume it that women are worthless
and can be used for their bodies andbeing sexually degraded and abused.
(20:32):
And so if men, young men and old.Both are constantly fed
misogynist messages.That's not going to go anywhere.
Good.No, and it isn't going anywhere good.
No. And it's.The thing is, if for any new parents,
I'm just worried for them.I'm worried about my kids having
(20:54):
children because they're notjust going to be the only ones
raising that child.The internet's going to be
raising the child.And it does remind me of a book
from 2002 by James Steyer calledThe Other Parent.
And I remember reading that,and it was basically like,
(21:15):
there's a stranger in your housethat your children are being
bombarded with, like images of sexand commercialism and violence.
But this was through TV.This was through the movies and
music and computer games.We didn't know, you know,
(21:36):
really. Where that was headed?Yeah. Where that was headed.
That was a real canary in thecoal mine because TV.
That would be a dream right nowif it was just TV.
Yeah, because they're not connectedto real people in real time.
Answering them back.You've got this huge community
out there of people that haveyour child's attention, and they
(21:59):
are raising them and arguably arehaving more influence on your child
than you are. And that's scary.Yeah, it absolutely is.
And in this study that we werereferencing before, they looked into
what are the narratives that menand boys are hearing online and in
(22:22):
a 2024 study on the manosphere.These are the messages that men
are picking up.Men have it harder than women when
it comes to new opportunities.Men can have their reputation
destroyed just for speakingtheir minds these days.
Things are generally better whenmen bring in money and women take
(22:45):
care of the home and the kids.So very regressive.
You know, feminism is aboutfavoring women over men.
61% of men believe that you mustbe an alpha male these days.
To get a partner is a popular belief.Oh, gosh.
More masculine energy is neededin the workplace.
(23:06):
Another really popular belief.Unreal.
And the kind of winner takes all.For one group to succeed,
one has to lose. Uh, yeah.And we're seeing that divisiveness.
And pick a side.And these online spaces are
radicalizing young men.It's not just giving them ideas.
(23:28):
It's cult like. It's signing them up.I think the manosphere also believes
that men are the oppressed class.Yes.
And they bond through this kindof shared misogynistic and
racist attitude.That there is a certain, like
aggrieved entitlement, that they'refeeling kind of righteously angry,
(23:51):
that things have are being taken awayfrom them that belong to them. Right.
There's some kind of anxiety aroundthe fact that they perceive their
losses in social status. Yes.In fact,
there's I came across this clip.Her handle is T Sierra,
(24:12):
author on TikTok.She's talking about there was an
article in New York Times thattalked about that.
White men are getting a lot lessaccolades in literature these days.
They're not getting picked forliterary prizes anymore.
And so she went looking.She went researching into like the
(24:35):
top. Kind of literary process.And she found it to be entirely
untrue.Oh, in fact, we can just hear the
clip and she tells the story.Sorry, where are the biggest
prizes in English literature?Like none of these articles
published in the last six monthsmention even mention the Pulitzer
(24:56):
in the US or the Booker in the UK.So I went and looked at the last
decade of winners and it became veryclear why they don't mention it.
It's because a completely,it completely and utterly undermines
this idea that the men are vanishing,that they aren't getting the awards.
In the last ten years,men have won the Pulitzer.
75% of the time, 75% of the time.Okay, straight white men have
(25:17):
won it 25% of the time,which is equal to the total number of
women who have won, all women whohave won it in the last ten years.
No women of color won the prizein the last decade.
The Booker was an itty bitty bitmore diverse.
Women of color tied one year,which meant that men.
Won about 70% of the time.So much for disappearing.
(25:41):
And it meant that straight whitemen won 25% of the time,
which is the same number aswhite women, the same the same
number of times as white women.So not so much. Not vanishing.
No men are dominating in thatmarket in those prizes.
If anything, it seems to me toshow bias for prizes toward men.
(26:05):
I think this is an example ofwhen you're used to everything
looking like you.Even the slightest change can feel
like an extinction level event canfeel like a lack of representation.
You know, it's interesting tothink that you have this like,
anger out there in men that's sayingthings are being taken away from us
or we're not getting the flowers thatwe deserve. And it was baseless.
(26:28):
Completely baseless. Yeah.I mean, that's the thing about
everything on the internet, too.It's just clickbait or they
sensationalize things.Maybe there's an element of truth
and then they run with it andvery quickly that gains traction.
And it's based on nothing.And that's concerning.
(27:00):
These manosphere online groups Iwanted to go through a few of them,
talk about them.So obviously we have the incels.
Yeah. Meaning involuntarily celibate.And they really blame women and
society for finding it difficultto enter romantic relationships.
Yeah. They blame.They have this whole system of
(27:22):
beliefs that's very,very superficial.
Believes that only, like top percentof males get women and that they're
not good looking enough or richenough or fit enough to get women,
and they're like, embittered over it.Yeah, they're all grouping together
online and complaining about this.And again, that sparks kind of a
(27:44):
hatred and misogynistic attitude.In fact, we have plenty of violent
episodes with incels who havecommitted mass murder in the name of.
Yeah, there are other manosphereonline groups.
There's the pickup artists pose,and they attempt to really kind of
(28:04):
seduce women through manipulation.But it's all like a game.
It's just to be the more powerfulsex and string women along.
To, like, gamify relationshipswith women in this way, to think
that it's all cynical, cruel game.If you think that is going to be
(28:31):
a place where men thrive,where are you going with that?
Well, they end up leading intomen's rights activists, the MRAs
and the fathers rights activists.Those are two very powerful and
influential groups.I think this is a dead end road,
man. Yeah.To, like, hang on to your, like,
(28:54):
superiority and entitlements andinsist on dominating women.
It's just not going to end well.Yeah, I don't want to ignore the
other group called the men goingtheir own way. Groups. Oh, sure.
So they are centering women in aresponse to feminism and the way
feminism is centering men.So men going their own way.
(29:17):
Lots of online chat groups aboutthat.
I really think what's missing,and maybe it's not missing. You know.
I do know many, both men and women,who are really working towards a
positive vision for boys and men.And that's what's needed here,
(29:38):
is that men who have a vision ofa more positive, open,
emotionally intelligent manhood.Why can't those men, those healthy,
balanced, good role model men,be the ones that are soaring in
the news and everywhere?Why does it have to be the Nick
(30:03):
Fonterra's the Charlie Kirks,the Andrew Tay?
Obviously Charlie Kirk's deceasednow. Why did they have a wider reach?
You know these influencers,they're young, like they started
in their 20s, all of them.And were able to capture
Literally a sitting,waiting audience of young men who
(30:27):
were looking for a role model.And personally,
I think Andrew Tate is the leastof our problems because some of
these kind of either alt rightor far right white nationalists,
this movement, they are veryinfluential and honestly playing
a significant role in moving likethis political culture to being
(30:51):
more radical and more violent.The whole thing about violence, I
feel in some sense like it's a waterwe all swim in in America at least.
I went to see a movie the other day.I went to see Naked Gun,
but I sat through, you know,as you do 15 minutes or more of the
trailers, and it was an assault,one trailer after the other,
(31:15):
with big muscly guy of this flavorof that flavor they all, like,
blurred together to me with big guns,big explosions.
It was just 20 minutes of absolutecarnage and also at the same time,
male worship.So this is the diet,
(31:36):
this is the media diet.And so I think there's a lot of
responsibility on Hollywood.This is what we're fed.
Yeah, exactly.We have had decades and decades
and decades of this, of Hollywoodshowing us that all problems get
(31:57):
resolved with violence and guns.And then you win the woman.
And then you win the woman.We have to have a complete
paradigm shift in all of this.Something major has to change.
When are we going to serve ourchildren and our young adults,
our young men, and help them lead amore fulfilling and save for life.
(32:22):
Make the case that this is notgood for men either.
This is a violent hierarchicalsystem where we all lose.
It's not just women.You all lose out on being a
human being by this patriarchy.That would be the paradigm shift
(32:45):
when men under patriarchy havethat realization and see that,
and that has to change from within.But, you know, funny enough,
in this study,one of the top things that gave men
meaning and purpose was marriage.Being in a relationship with the
(33:05):
woman, or being able to be in arelationship with a woman, and also
fatherhood. So it's very paradoxical.You want to dominate.
You want to be on top.You want to rule everybody,
but you also your top wishes inlife or the things that give you
meaning are relationships.Your intimate connection with a
(33:28):
partner and having a family andchildren and devote yourself to
fatherhood.Yes, yes, actually, NBC had a
little clip about the differencesand the views of what was top of
mind and most meaningful for thedifference between men and women.
And it was very different.And men had the marriage and the
(33:50):
children up right up top.Gen Z men under 30 who voted for
Donald Trump,what were they most likely to
say makes for a successful life?Having children number one women.
Gen Z voted for Kamala Harris.Where's have it? Wow.
All the way down here at the bottom.Couldn't be more opposite.
Second to last for women who votedfor Harris. Was being married.
(34:12):
Being married. Look at this.Near the top of the list for men
who voted for Donald Trump.Another huge difference.
A very common answer for Gen Z.Women who voted for Harris was having
emotional stability for Gen Z,men who voted for Donald Trump.
You got to go all the way to thebottom to find that one.
These are some core basic questionsabout how people think about life.
And you can see here this risinggeneration in this country very
(34:36):
far apart.I think most men understand that
the solution is in intimateconnection and relationships,
even if they aren't able to constructa world or deconstruct masculinity
in order to access those vital,vital relationships and connections.
(35:13):
So the fifth item was violence,right? Yes.
The fifth item was violence.But of course it's like it's so
much bigger.I look at this like latest
disaster with the Charlie Kirkassassination and another gun
control conversation back to that,which is so the the refrain in
(35:34):
America, whenever something likethis happens and I feel like it's
always turns into this virulentright left discussion and no one
ever talks about male violence.We just stop pointing fingers, adding
left or right or mental health.They'll always throw that one in
(35:55):
there. Yeah.Then we circle the drain until the
next big event, or the next massshooting, or the next assassination.
And then we we react again to it,you know, in the same way.
Madness, madness, madness,madness. Yeah.
But you're saying as item five ofthis survey that men recognize
(36:15):
Knives. This they're saying.This is one of the issues of the
problem with masculinity and thestruggles of men.
So they're aware of their violence.Sure.
And they're also aware in anAmerican context.
You know,they're aware of firearms and guns
in connection with male violence.And, of course, you know, just
(36:38):
because men know that violence is aproblem doesn't mean that they are
rolling up their sleeves to solve it.No, it reminds me of the essay by
Michael Kaufman on the triad of men'sviolence that violence against women
(36:58):
is connected to violence againstother men, which is connected to
violence against themselves. Yeah.As in, like suicide or turning
that violence inwards.They're in a triangle together.
And I would love to actuallyplay a clip from Jackson Katz.
(37:18):
I love him, I think he's right on.Yeah, he's really kind of
explaining about this violence thatmen experience from other men,
leading them to have these issues.I made the connections between
all these forms of violence,and feminists have been making
these connections, even thoughcentering women's and girls
(37:40):
experience is critical, obviously.And it's a it's the it's the
central feminist project.It's it's broader than that.
And so the reason why I'm sayingthis is if we want to talk about
building male out, you know,men getting men to start standing
with women and feminists,if you say to them, you know what?
Feminists have been talkingabout this for decades.
The feminists care about men'sviolence against men.
(38:00):
Feminists care about boys,for example, growing up in homes
where their father abuses theirmother and traumatizing the kids.
You know how many boys and menhave been victims?
Like how many boys and men'smothers have been murdered by
their fathers or their mothersboyfriends and the trauma,
the incredible loss and sadness.How many men, by the way?
Not just boys, but how manyadult men, myself included,
(38:21):
have women in our lives who have beenvictims of other men's violence?
I mean, the idea that somehowit's anti male to challenge men's
violence and to try to changesystemic practices around, you know,
sexism, that somehow it's anti male.It's just to me it's so
intellectually dishonest anddisingenuous.
You can't talk about theviolence we're seeing out here
(38:43):
all around us without talkingabout the normalization of it.
We're watching a genocide on oursocial media.
We're watching all kinds of reallyhorrific, isolated and patterned
events, mass and individualviolence on our phones, which has a
(39:03):
normalizing effect on all of us.Well, we're not built either to
process any of that as human beings.We're not wired for it like
we're really not.Know and our children are seeing
this stuff real time.Also, as long as they have a
smartphone in their hand.So many people, young people saw
(39:26):
the clip of Charlie Kirk beforeit started getting censored.
That started going around theinternet pretty quickly and there was
no protection against seeing that,and that has an impact.
We don't know how to handle adeath like that before our eyes.
Know and just again, to,you know, to remind ourselves.
(39:48):
Human beings are wired forintimate connection.
We are intensely social creaturesthat survive and thrive only when
we're connected to other people.And we have these intricate care
structures in our brains and inour bodies that Require nurturing,
(40:12):
that require care, that requireother people to care for us.
And the shock to the human system oflike seeing this kind of brutality.
You really can't overestimatehow damaging it is.
So this cycle, I think the cycle ofviolence, if young boys are being
(40:39):
influenced online or they saw andwitnessed violence as a child,
then they become the perpetratorof violence as they are older and
then their children see it andthen they do it. When does it end?
What stops this cycle fromcontinuing?
Yeah, again, I think the remedy forthis is to connect men to other
(41:05):
humans, to bring them into community,bring them into family,
bring them into relationship,into intimate connection with
all of the people around them.We can't afford to have
alienated men.Some of it is self-inflicted
alienation.If you insist on dominating everyone,
(41:29):
or you insist that you are betterthan everyone, or you have the
right to control other people,than you are going to be lonely.
And so I think men somehow needto come around to that.
They need to approach otherhuman beings, some life,
maybe with more humility.Yeah, we need a mass awakening
(41:51):
for men. For sure, for sure.But I also do think as masculinity is
in a place where it's being redefinedand deconstructed and all of that,
I do think it's an opportunity formale leaders and for men in general,
to reshape what it means to be man,reshape purpose, reshape meaning,
(42:12):
and do the hard work,the emotional work that's needed to
build back healthy, so to speak.Yeah, and they've really got to have
the courage to go against the grain,to know that they're not going to fit
in, but they would be able to finda sense of belonging if they do.
(42:34):
Actually,Brené Brown has a great piece on
just understanding the differencebetween belonging and fitting in.
I was so shocked to learn in theresearch that the opposite of
belonging is fitting in,because fitting in is assessing
a group of people and thinking,who do I need to be?
What do I need to say?What do I need to wear?
How do I need to act?And changing who you are and
(42:57):
true belonging never asks us tochange who we are.
It demands that we be who we are.Because if we if we if we fit in.
Because how we've changed ourselves.That's not belonging.
That's not belonging.Because you betrayed yourself
for other people.And that's not sustainable.
(43:19):
That is such an importantdistinction.
The conforming versus belonging.And if you go back to talking about
what we were talking about withboys spending too much time online
and having that influence, they'relooking to fit in somewhere, which
is not the sense of who they are.You're not going within and their
(43:42):
physical community around them.Their influences around them in
real life, not online to have themfind that sense of belonging.
They're changing themselves tofit in. And so it's the opposite.
And it I think it's leaving themfragile and vulnerable. Absolutely.
(44:03):
And perhaps they are doingViolent acts or mass shootings.
I mean, you can't.It's not sustainable. As Brené says.
It reminds me of something.This interview with Michael
Conroy that I did.That was a great interview,
by the way. Oh thank you.I really love the work that he's
doing. He.He really doesn't like jargon and
(44:26):
labels, and he's really one forjust calling things concretely
and specifically what they are.He spoke about that boys and
young men have the same needs aseverybody else does.
They want to be seen and knownand recognized for who they are.
(44:49):
Exactly, exactly. Women.We know that about each other.
We know that need in us.And I think men need to come
home to that in a real way.I think that our culture and society
has to offer an environment tomake them feel safe, to be that
(45:09):
way and to show up that way.Yes, I absolutely agree with you,
but I also do think that we needmale leaders to, like,
metabolize these messages and likeJackson Katz or Michael Conroy or
Michael Flood or a whole lot ofother people that can talk to men
and can help change the culture.I don't think it's on women
(45:32):
necessarily. No no no no no.This is a man's issue to experience
and to solve as well. Yeah.Although no one will be as happy
and grateful as women for men tostart doing this deconstruction of
patriarchy on masculinity and empowerthemselves to be more relational.
(45:55):
In fact, I have another clip from, hegoes by Solid 7 on TikTok, and
she has this great kind of meditationon like I was not born hating man.
But she talks about that herexperiences shaped her,
how she felt about men.I think in some sense, like she's
(46:16):
really holding on to like a lovefor men, but so many experiences
have beaten it out of her and I.I so, so relate to that.
It means that I still don't hate men.There's a difference between
hating them and also feelinglike I need to protect and
defend myself against them.I don't think you need to hate them,
(46:38):
to not want to be around them,like there is a certain level of fear
and awareness I have now that is nottied to hate. That's too much energy.
What I do need to use my energyfor is to protect myself and
make sure that I'm not overexerting myself or putting
myself in dangerous situationsto the best of my abilities.
When I am engaging with men andfor short stints of time,
(47:01):
I can enjoy being around them,but I don't let it lead to hope
anymore at all. Not.Not in the hope that they will
be a good friend.Not in the hope that they will
be a good lover.Not in the hope that they will be a
good short term or long term partner.I don't have that hope anymore.
That has been crushed and dissolved.I relate to that too.
(47:22):
Completely. Yeah, completely.I mean, I've dissented men now for
three years and counting, but attimes, sure, I miss having a good,
healthy man in my life, but for me,there's no going back now.
Sad to say,but where you've just given up. Yeah.
Or you make do with the nonpartner men you have around you,
(47:46):
which I have many in my life,whether it's like sports coaches
or workmates or collaborators orwhatever. Yeah, yeah.
That's close enough for me.Yeah. Yeah.
There's a 4 billion strongcheering section here on Earth.
(48:06):
Just hoping you guys are gonnabe met.
Men across the world,the other 4 billion are going to
turn it around and be human with us.
(48:28):
So one interesting part of thestudy was that men overwhelmingly
support care policies, meaningthings like paid parental leave,
child tax relief,subsidized elder and child care.
Like there's an overwhelmingamount of male support for those
(48:49):
type of policies.And I think that's indicates a
lot that men think deeply abouttheir children's future and are
occupied with care.And I think that's a really
positive thing.Some of the sort of solutions
that women do is suggesting atthe end of their report is to
(49:15):
heed this instinct by men to careabout caregiving and fatherhood,
and that there's a lot that can bedone to make a path for men to take
on a bigger role in caregiving,whether that is as a father, as a
(49:36):
son, as a partner, or anything elseinside their family or their clan.
That we ease that path,that we economically and
politically make that possible.Yes, actually, I was listening
to Melinda French Gates talkabout that on a podcast, too.
We have to stop calling it maternityleave and just give women time off
(49:58):
that we have to invest in parentalleave, shared parental leave for
that first year that we really arealso acknowledging the having the
man be home and supporting thefamily altogether financially,
so that the man and the woman canbe home, will completely change
(50:20):
the dynamics of the fathers rolein the children's lives and ease
things up for the woman who's justgone through the physical being
pregnant and giving birth again,just a paradigm shift of switching
the way we think about things,to say no, this is an investment
(50:43):
into a future generation.100%, and also make a role with
dignity that is the helpmate ofthe mother and as in matriarchal
societies as we know, that isn'talways the biological father.
That is often the mother's brother.I would love to see, like the role
(51:07):
of the uncle really get promoted,or for men to step into helpmate
roles that are really importantfor bringing up young. 100%.
The other thing they mentionedis supporting young men through
mentorship,coaching and apprenticeship.
(51:29):
And I think that's kind of likeno brainer.
Yeah, young men need positiverole models, no question.
Of good positive role models andinfluences. Not bad ones.
If you haven't got that mentorat home, you can have that
outside of the home in a good,healthy, structured way.
Yeah, having an emotional literacyand brotherhood, building, that kind
(51:52):
of connection and communicationfor men And we'll definitely put
some links in the show notes togroups like the Men's Collective,
ReMasculine, Mankind Project, XY Online, just to
name a few resources. Yeah, but.I have to ask you, other than
(52:13):
positive men influencing young boys.What are your thoughts on woman only
household raising a feminist son?Just women raising boys as you say.
If there was like an influenceof a of an uncle or somebody.
Peripheral men, role models,but not a male household. Yeah.
(52:38):
I mean, I feel a lot ofdifferent ways about this.
I mean, it is absolutely known,like in traditionally matriarchal
societies, that the males whohave the larger roles in child
rearing and care are the mothers,brothers Biological connection in
that sounds like in matriarchalsocieties, the child belongs to the
(53:01):
mother in matrilineal societies.And so the brothers are on the
mother's side, so they are thedirect kin connection to the child,
whereas the bio father is justnot considered so vital.
But aside from that,we live in the patriarchy.
We can't, you know, there's noescaping in this structure.
(53:22):
The patriarchy is not going toend in our lifetimes.
So let's say this I think it's ashame that sons have their
identification and connection withtheir mothers severed so early.
That is just something thathappens in patriarchy.
Essentially, the messages theyget is that women are weak,
(53:44):
embarrassing, bad.Whatever you do,
don't be like a woman.And of course their mother is a
woman.So that's severing between mothers
and sons so early in the son's life,and that he then gets absorbed by
the patriarchy away from his motheris bad for men. It's traumatizing.
(54:06):
Yeah, it's traumatizing.And it's bad for boys. Yeah.
Boys need identification with theirmother and intimate connection
with their mother for a long time,just like girls do. Yeah.
I love Sonora Jha, who wrote thebook How to Raise a Feminist Son.
And she, in her book dedication,like in the front cover,
(54:27):
she says it's a love story forfeminists who hope to change the
world one boy at a time.Let's play a clip real quick from
Sonora. Why she wrote the book.When I had my baby, I, you know,
I was so terrified that he wouldgrow up to be like the the men
that I had grown up around.Violent men, um, you know,
(54:48):
men with insecure egos and fragileegos that I realized I needed
him to be a feminist and to seea woman's place in the world to
uphold the full humanity of women.I love that this is such an important
message to mothers of every kind.Like your connection to your son,
(55:11):
your son's connection with you.Have you heard of the Icelandic
Hijali Model? Yeah. Yes.So there's this basically is a
preschool program in Iceland that istrying to combat sex stereotypes.
Well, that's the key. Key? Yeah.They do it really early to prevent
(55:32):
the children adopting, like thesetraditional sex based roles.
They separate the boys and girlsthroughout the day.
So the boys are all up in one groupand the girls are in another.
And the girls are encouraged to show,like, their physical strength and
their boldness and be direct,teaching them how to be direct,
(55:54):
and they do more physical thingsoutside and yelling.
And the boys are inside andthey're engage them into like
caring and nurturing activities todevelop their emotional skills.
Why is it that Iceland comes upwith all the good things?
Well, we said that in our Mad Menepisode, we said that Iceland ranks
(56:19):
number one for sex equality, right?Yeah, well,
this is how you do it worldwide.So yeah, this program has been
going for 30 years.They've actually on their website.
They have data on their results thatdoing this in preschool helps them,
like the rest of their academic life,that their reading fluency is higher,
(56:40):
they're scoring higher,that there's actually less noise in
the classroom and distractions fromthe boys through the older grades.
I think again, like as a society,we need to be looking at this.
We need to adopt some of thesemodels. 100%.
(57:01):
Yeah,that is the way forward right there.
And I've always personallythought teaching mindfulness and
meditation in preschool, inelementary even teaching compassion.
Honestly if we had K through 12compassion as a core subject like
math and English and social studies,I think we would be raising a
(57:25):
different type of generation.I couldn't agree more.
It's an embodiment approach tohumanity and life in that we're
not separating our brains fromour bodies. It is all one.
Our mindfulness is in the how wecare for our bodies and our
(57:46):
whole neurobiology.It is something that we all need
to kind of relearn.If we did that kind of teaching,
it would be addressing the rootcause versus what we're trying to
do right now, which is address thesymptoms of a society. So true.
Well, there's some encouragingthings to think about, and we
(58:09):
would love your input, as always,to let us know what you think, too.
There's a whole lot more to talkabout.
I feel like we only scratchedthe surface of like,
manhood masculinities, manosphere,like all of the things.
Well, until next November.Happy international men's day.
Happy international men's day.All right, bye for now. Bye for.
(58:32):
Now. Yeah. Hi. Hi. Hi.Thank you for listening to Chat
In The Commons.We would love to hear from you
about anything we talked abouton this episode.
You can reach us via our social mediaon our website: chatinthecommons.com.
(58:53):
You can also find links to allthe resources mentioned in this
episode in the show notes.If you like what we're doing here,
please share with all your friends.And the best way to support our work
is to follow us on your podcast app.Chat In The Commons is produced by
me, Elle Kamihira and Natalie Blundell.Audio engineering by Jason
(59:17):
Sheelsey at Abridged Audio.Artwork by Reda Tomingas,
Music by Midnight Door and themesong by Moushumi.
You got no conscience,so I'll do it again. And.
(59:40):
I'll do it again and again and again.
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