December 4, 2025 • 70 mins
A chat about our trip to FiLiA, the largest grassroots feminist conference in Europe.
Celebrating their tenth anniversary, FiLiA 2025 was held in Brighton, UK and hosted 300 speakers from 75 countries and nearly 3,000 attendants - and Elle was there to soak it all up.
In this episode Elle shares the inside scoop about what she saw and heard - the good, the bad and the ugly. From the powerful panel discussions (see list below), to women’s newfound global connectivity and solidarity, to frictions between feminists of different cultures, getting a 360º view of women’s oppression, and how we stay ahead of the patriarchal onslaught.
WE DISCUSS:
(00:00:00) Introduction
(00:01:36) Background on FiLiA Conference
(00:04:49) Elle travels to Brighton
(00:09:31) TERF Island
(00:11:41) Opening Ceremony & Brighton’s Suffragette History
(00:19:16) Feminism and Militarism Panel
(00:27:18) Beyond the Misogynist Backlash Panel
(00:33:01) Erasure of Women’s History Panel
(00:35:56) Modern Matriarchy Panel
(00:38:12) Women and the State Panel
(00:42:22) Surrogacy Panel
(00:47:19) Femicide Panel
(00:54:42) Drama at the Disco
(00:59:39) State Violence & Gender Ideology in Brazil
(01:06:20) Importance of Women’s Gatherings
EPISODE LINKS
Mary Clarke Brighton’s Suffragette History
Max Dashu Interview | Subject to Power
Minangkabau Matrilineal Community
CONTACT US
Website: www.chatinthecommons.com
Instagram: @chatinthecommons
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Ha! Ha ha ha ha!Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
(00:25):
Welcome back to Chat In The Commons,where we tear it all down.
One sensible conversation at a time.I'm Natalie Blundell.
I'm in the corporate world and alsothe founder of an online support
network. And I'm Elle Kamihira.I'm a documentary producer and
podcast host.
(00:53):
We actually have another kind ofspecial episode for you today.
Yes, yes, we did one earlier inthe fall called women in the wild.
And we're going to take you on ajourney in a similar way to the
feminist events that you and Ilove to go to every year.
I wasn't able to go with you,unfortunately.
(01:16):
Well, no, but I am actually soexcited that we're finally recording
this because I get to hear about it.We've not talked about it.
I know I've been dying to tell youall about it, and we just haven't.
Yeah,I really wanted to have a beginner's
mind to hear about what went downand the experience that you felt.
Going to Brighton, England,to the FiLiA conference. Yeah.
(01:41):
And so I just want to like forbackground,
I don't think feminist gatheringsare all that common these days,
certainly not in this country.It's not like your girlfriends all
like travel to feminist conferencesor whatever. It's fairly unusual.
And we traveled to FiLiA twicebefore.
The first year we went toCardiff 2022 Glasgow 2023.
(02:07):
So this year it was actuallyFiLiA's 10th year anniversary.
It was an extra large, you know,attended by like upwards of 3000
women from all over the world.The venue was in Brighton, which is a
small beach town in southern England.Really, really pretty place.
And so I traveled there and we'regoing to take you along. Yeah.
(02:31):
And they did pick Brighton becausethat was the first conference they
had, I think with maybe a hundredpeople or something. Ten years ago.
In 2013 actually was the first.Oh 2013 yeah, yeah. Okay.
Because they've skipped a coupleof years. Well, yeah.
And this conference with over300 speakers, as I understand,
took two years to plan.So there wasn't a conference last
(02:54):
year. So it was a big event.FiLiA is founded by Lisa Marie
Taylor, who's still the CEO and anarmy of volunteers who put this
conference together each year.So they changed location each
conference, and they work closelywith women's organizations in those
(03:16):
places, and the local women in thetowns that they're holding it.
Yeah, it's almost to raise thevibration or the consciousness
of the town, not just drop infor a three day event and leave,
but they really work within thecommunity, which is a great part of.
And what makes FiLiA very differentthan other conferences? Yes.
(03:36):
There are so many local womenwho've gifted their time.
I mean, just in terms of the energy,the creative narrative across
everything, the banners,the screens, the witches room.
I mean, I don't know whose fullit is, but I love it.
Um, and, uh, just,I think collectively as a sisterhood,
can we thank the local women forhaving us and is. Helping us today?
(04:00):
But as local as it is,it is equally global. Mhm.
The amount of women from amountof countries and continents from
around the world that I saw at thisconference was just absolutely
mind blowing. It's a melting pot.And I bet you heard about things
(04:20):
or conversations or sessions thatyou would never have known that was
going on unless you went there.Yes, we all live in our own
local worlds, right?And, uh, don't necessarily have
an eye into how other women livein different cultures.
And it was very, very eye opening.Let's go. Let's go to Brighton.
(04:48):
Um, at the airport, waiting to board.Um, and now taking an overnight
flight to London and then atrain ride to Brighton.
Good morning everyone,as the captain is sure to send
you to London's Heathrow Airport.If you haven't,
please return to your seats andpass your seatbelts for the flight.
In just a few moments since,we've been coming back through the
(05:09):
cabins in the International Garden.We are now arriving at Acton
Mainline.Mind the gap between the train
and the platform.Just arrived in Brighton and are
(05:31):
walking down the station.To find a cab to go to the hotel.
It's overcast and the Brightontrain station.
It's really beautiful, actually.So now it's evening.
(05:53):
It's, um, sunset,and I'm looking out over an
absolutely gorgeous view in Brighton.And I think I see the conference
center, Brighton Center,where FiLiA will take place.
It is, uh, lit up in purple.
(06:24):
I headed to FiLiA.It's a lot, and I'm getting there
early to register and check in.Just taking in the hotel,
taking the elevator down to theto the first floor. I'm nervous.
There's going to be a lot,a lot, a lot of women there.
Some of whom I know, um, and some Idon't. A lot of a lot of new friends.
(07:01):
I know.
That opening music gets me everytime, the two years that I was there
in person, but it seemed like itwas even more elevated this time.
(07:27):
The energy was electric.I have to say.
But that said, women who attendedthat first day, we had to make it
through a gauntlet of protesters.So the venue, it's a glass building.
And when we arrived in the morning,protesters had broken almost half the
(07:48):
bottom half of the glass building.And they were it was glass
everywhere.They had spray painted the
entire front of the building.So they did this all overnight.
Overnight before the opening day?Yes. So it was completely vandalized.
Do they really think it's goingto deter women from walking in?
Well, the protesters wereprotesting so-called TERFs.
(08:14):
Was the idea there trans activists?There weren't many of them,
maybe like 20 or 30 people, but theywere standing right at the entrance.
So the entire file of womenwalking through were subjected
to screams and shouts and very,very aggressive men and women both.
(08:34):
They had the siren machines.Women were traumatized and
frightened, actually.So like on the megaphone,
you're saying like the megaphone,there's a siren button. Exactly.
And just really a hardship for likeall the women who had sacrificed
to be there from all over. Sure.And I think the thing that gets me
(08:56):
to is they think we're going inthere and talking about anti-trans.
It's not a focus of the conference.Yeah, I didn't go to a single panel
that talked about transgenderismor gender ideology at all.
I know there were somewell-known TERFs in there,
but there were no panels about itthat I know of or that I attended.
(09:17):
So the demonstration felt to mejust very out of place and very
inappropriate.Like, what are you protesting?
Are you just protesting women orfeminists in general?
Like, I didn't get it at all.And for listeners that may not know
what a TERF is. Would you just mind?Yeah, it's a slur essentially
(09:38):
trans excluding radical feminist.Right. Is what it stands for.
But at this point in the UK,I think we don't call it Terf
Island for nothing.And so, you know, a lot of feminists
have engaged in the battle forwomen's sex based rights and FiLiA
(10:00):
certainly is that also fightingfor women's sex based rights?
Very articulately that.But that said,
transgenderism or gender ideologyis such a small issue compared to
all of the other battles that womenare engaged in all over the world.
(10:21):
Yeah, to the point that it even feelslike it's a distraction to just
focus on it. Giving it attention.Yeah, all the attention the media has
given it for such a small minorityof people, when we are when we're
in legal battles and other thingsover transgenderism or trans rights,
there's a whole lot of other badthings that are happening for women
(10:42):
that is taking our attention awayfrom this to focus on that. So yeah.
And I just want to say a lastthing about that demonstration.
So there is a huge focus overall,FiLiA, of violence against
women in various forms,male violence against women.
And so here we have a demonstrationof male violence against women,
(11:06):
essentially right at the buildingwhere we're having this conference.
So the ironies like crazy. Yeah.I'm I'm standing in line.
It is a very, very long queue.And the protesters are up front,
but there are police kind ofpatrolling the line and also
(11:30):
security folks and ushers.So it's a fairly small group,
and I doubt that they'll be herethe other days.
So once everyone got in and checkedin through security and all of that,
we gathered in the main auditoriumand attended the opening.
(11:50):
And that's what the music youjust heard, which was it was
truly electric. Yeah.Just to be in a hall full of so
many women from everywhere andthe stage was beautiful.
It had this like design of FiLiAthrough the ages from 2013 till 2025.
Everything was like bathed inpurple light and like it was
(12:13):
gorgeous and everybody was in,you know, incredibly high
spirits and supporting everyspeaker that came out.
And the emcee ran the show likea circus director. It was fun.
And what I really appreciated wasthat they talked about Brighton's
history of suffragettes.The women's suffragette movement
(12:37):
was really strong in Brighton.And so they talked about all the
heroes Emmeline Pankhurst,Mary Clarke,
all of these people who sacrificed.And I think feminists these days
don't know.They look at these like Victorian
ladies and like elaboratedresses and they think, oh,
(12:57):
that's such a long time ago.And it was like kind of a romantic
fight. It was not. It was violent.It was very, very violent.
And men beat women,beat these suffragettes to death
several times, like Mary Clarke wasbeaten to death in the streets.
For having a voice,for standing up, for pushing back.
(13:18):
For wanting a vote,wanting to participate politically.
We have forgotten how hard thisfight has been.
Here in the US as well. You're right.You look at those old photos and
the the big sashes and the whitedresses and it feels unrelatable.
(13:39):
Yeah, like it happened in awhole different time.
That has nothing to do with thepresent. Mhm.
Well that's great that they broughtthat in and I did not realize that
happened. Brighton too. Yeah.It's a kind of a feminist
stronghold Brighton.And you kind of realize like why they
put the 10th anniversary conferencethere. Yeah. So that was cool.
And then there were a few kindof veteran feminists that
(14:03):
welcomed everyone and, you know,kind of a rousing, welcoming speech
about everything that we're facingand what we're going to be talking
about and who we're going to meet.One of the most exciting,
welcoming speakers,I thought was Esua Goldsmith, and
she just said some profound things.And, uh, let's play some of her.
(14:27):
Collection is something thatRahila talks about,
and it's really, really important.And we're doing that to this day.
75 countries represented in thisroom. How brilliant is that? That.
And I've spent my whole life workingin the international feminist
movement in every continent,working with women at grassroots,
up to national.And it's just it gives you that
(14:49):
kind of feeling.I think feminism and women's
liberation is an emotion.It's not just an ideology.
It's not just a system of thought.It's not just a world through
which we look at the world.It is a lens through which we look
at the world. It is an emotion.Just when you think about what
we're up against.It's the the economics and the mega
(15:09):
capitalism and the environmentalcrisis, the pandemic, racism,
colonialism, crisis in housing andall those other issues and crisis in
democracy itself where people arelosing faith in leadership to lead.
So all women hitting womenparticularly hard.
And I think since the wordfeminism was was invented and
(15:34):
since the word the phrasewomen's liberation was coined,
there's been a backlash against it.In my opinion, people didn't like
it as soon as they heard about it.Of course,
because this is the you know,we are living in the patriarchy.
It's absolutely incredible.I mean, she's been doing this.
It sounds a long time in this space,not only as a feminist, but as a
(15:59):
black woman facing such racism inEngland during the last 50 years.
Incredible. Absolute veteran.I will see you around, but whatever
you do, have a fabulous time. Women.I'd love to hear some of the things
(16:20):
that you attended, or what you werehearing in the hallways, because
I wanted to be there so badly.I know, I know, I felt a little
alone without you by my side.I have to admit,
because we had done this together.Yeah, I know that was our thing.
And it broke my heart.Obviously,
(16:42):
I was doing something very special.My daughter was getting married,
so I had to be here. But, uh. Oh.I wasn't jealous that you were there.
I was glad one of us was there.There were just so many moments where
you just had to, like, be there.And if you remember,
when we're in Cardiff, when we wentto for the first time together,
(17:03):
like, I think a lot of women feellost in the current feminism and
not sure if like feminism is forthem or whether it's accomplishing
things anymore or whether it'sneeded anymore, etc. and I think
(17:25):
when we went in 2022 to Cardiff,like I think we were in a little bit
that same position where it's like,well, I don't know.
You know, it says for us, really.I did not know what to expect.
I was just happy to like,travel with the sister type of thing.
And it was life changing thatfirst one for me.
(17:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for me as well.I mean, I knew a little bit more
what to expect,but still it was just the atmosphere.
When you arrive in the building withonly women, like the welcoming and
the warmth and the sort of sisterhoodis just, you cannot describe.
That energy part of being basicallyan all women's space and an all
(18:11):
women's event. You do feel safe.It doesn't feel like you're
being judged in any way or haveany safety issues.
You're not looking after your purse.You're not looking after your wallet.
You're not looking after your assor your tits or anything else.
You know,you are completely at ease. Yes.
And I think that's hard for alot of women to appreciate.
(18:34):
Like feeling that way.You don't know what that feels like
until you are at an event like FiLiA.And then you suddenly realize,
oh, all my cortisol adrenalinelevels are all down. Exactly.
It's like a sigh of relief thatyou're in this space,
and it feels good, and it nurturessome part of the heart or the soul.
(18:58):
You're in throngs and throngs ofwomen from absolutely every
corner of the globe.You know, you have African women,
Chinese women, South American women,Swedish women, representatives
from absolutely everywhere.It's like the Olympics,
the Olympics, the feminisms.It is absolutely like the Olympics.
(19:20):
I kind of had my eye on panelsthat talked about, and this is
kind of where my interest is.You know, panels that talked about
the status of women worldwide.That's where my interest was
this year.Like big picture,
like the relationship between womenand nation states that they are in.
And so that is what I gravitatedtowards for much of the conference.
(19:43):
And so the first panel that I wentto was feminism and militarism,
essentially.And on the panel was a Palestinian
poet, Rouda Morcos, Israeli peaceactivist, Yvonne Deutsch, Serbian
peace activist Lepa Mjaldovic,and Saudi academic Miriam Aldossari.
(20:04):
This panel was chaired byBronwyn Winter.
But you know,you can imagine here we are at a
feminist conference in Brighton, UK,and you have a Palestinian woman,
an Israeli woman,a Serbian woman and a Saudi woman
talking about what women facewith men's military might Right.
(20:26):
And so in some sense, my take awayfrom like the entire conversation
and it wasn't an easy conversation,was that we acknowledged that we
don't have any power as women.These are patriarchal wars.
They are patriarchal conflicts.Military is a male affair.
(20:51):
And we can sit here and ruminate andtell you what we would rather do to
create peace, to move towards peace,and to avoid the horrific things
that are happening in the world.But we're women.
We are only women,and we don't have the power to
(21:15):
affect these large geopoliticalchanges that we wish we could.
That was kind of the thetakeaway for me from that.
Very sad. Yeah, exactly.I was saying that I would think
that that would be a very heavyfeeling to walk away from.
It doesn't matter how far we'veprogressed and how many rights we've
(21:36):
gotten in that kind of nation staterelationship, we're still powerless.
And, you know, we have words,but we only have words.
And we have organizations who arepolitical activists, etc. but we
aren't the powers. Yeah. Sorry.I just for a second had a little
(21:58):
fantasy of, well,how would that ever change?
And my mind very quickly went towhat if just some kind of virus
attacked only the male of species,the male gene that's here for me.
I don't see how how we would ever getthere without something like that.
Sorry, man.I'm sure you are not the only one
(22:21):
who's had that fantasy, In fact,I heard several women in the course
of the three days at FiLiA kind ofvoice is similar sentiments. Wow.
Yeah,the despair runs pretty deep in that.
And, you know, again,and we've talked about this before.
(22:44):
You know, we're watching severalgenocides happen.
The primary victims are womenand children and the elderly.
And the violence just is orgiastic.It is just relentless.
And it it is done by men fromstart to finish. Yeah.
(23:05):
And the violence begets violence.It just seems to just keep on going.
We're always in some kind of wars orwars somewhere in the world. Exactly.
This panel, this first panel kind ofset the tone for me a little bit.
A good portion of the group ofattendees at the panel were
(23:27):
pro-Palestine or Free Palestine.They were came in varying Cepheus,
and I think that I started to feel atthis point, I started to feel that
friction between the pro-PalestinianFree Palestine contingent of
(23:49):
FiLiA attendees and people whowere then claiming anti-Semitism,
or there was definitely Jewish womenthat attended, were deeply offended.
I think overall at the how loud andhow much space the Stop the Genocide
(24:11):
or Free Palestine people were.So that was right from the get go.
You could feel that right from thatfirst session. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, how did that land in you?Were you expecting something
like that?That feeling was going to be the
space where women were going tobring that in. Not at all.
It really shocked me.And I have to say, like,
(24:34):
personally, what shocked me andkind of what I really wish just
for a different world, I suppose.But these are old patriarchal wars.
They're imperial wars.They are fought with terrorism
and state violence.And I feel that the idea of women
(24:59):
stepping into these patriarchalwars and taking sides and standing
against one another on behalf of thispatriarchal side or that patriarchal
side, just filled me with despair.I understand women don't live
outside their culture.I understand that women don't choose,
(25:19):
like whether they're Jewish orPalestinian or any other ethnicity.
So it's not like you can juststep outside of your religion or
your culture.You are born into it. We all are.
And so I don't expect women to,like, set aside their inborn
cultures or inborn religions.I don't think that's possible,
(25:41):
but I do wish there was maybe moreacknowledgement of, like these wars,
these atrocities, this terrorismthat happens is on account of
patriarchal men who are doing this.It's not a woman's affair.
Let's never lose sight of that,because when we get pulled into it,
(26:03):
then we are part of the problem too.Then we are the patriarchal
maidens getting involved.We're just taking sides.
I think women know that if we'regoing to have peace in the world.
Women need to lead that.I don't think we can leave it to
the patriarchs to do this.We'll just have more war. Yeah.
(26:25):
We don't need a department of war.It was renamed here.
The Department of Defense is nowthe Department of War.
We need a Department of Peace.Why are we continuing to prop up
thoughts of war and violence?Where's their Department of Peace?
That's the goal, is it not?That is the goal, exactly. Yeah.
(26:49):
And so to kind of clock the wholePalestinian Jewish friction and
tension in the space so early in theconference colored my experience,
no doubt.
(27:13):
The next session I attended wascalled beyond the misogynist
backlash.That sounds right up our alley.
We have said we're going through amajor awakening, a mass awakening.
We have said that we're amidst apatriarchal backlash.
And that is exactly what thesewomen talked about. Wow.
(27:35):
Sonya Sohda chaired it.She's a British broadcaster,
reporter, very sharp and did agreat job handling.
And then it was Sahti Patel fromTotal Woman Victory.
Krisztina Les,who's a young Hungarian feminist.
Then Li Wen Qin is a radicalfeminist from China.
(27:57):
And then Max Dashu, who is a Americanwomen's history researcher.
Powerful panel. Gosh, yes.And so each of these women talked
about completely different aspectsof the misogynist backlash.
(28:19):
So we got a Chinese perspective.We got a Hungarian perspective.
We got kind of a world historyperspective from Max, I love her.
I'm such a big fan of hers.She runs the Repressed History
Archives.She's been working on it since the
70s, and she has essentially likeunearthed enormous library of women's
(28:43):
history, women's visual history.They just gave such a varied
perspective on Krisztina talkedabout how in Hungary it has become
extremely patriarchal and very,very conservative.
Now with crackdown on divorceand abortion and birth control.
Really? Yeah.I feel like we don't hear anything
(29:04):
in the news about Hungary.Eastern Europe is still so like
unknown in a sense to us.I think she's also young.
And that was another thing aboutthe whole conference, by the way,
when we went in 2022, you know, itskewed older, middle age, whatever.
This year was so young, really.I want to say half the attendants
(29:30):
were in their 20s or early 30s.That's so encouraging.
I know it was amazing how manyyoung women there were both on
the panels and attendance.So it shows you like young women
are coming to radical feminismor feminism, period.
Especially if they were on panelsand speakers that they're willing,
(29:53):
you know, they've got enoughknowledge, even in their 20 years
on Earth or 30 years on Earth,that they know things are not good at
the moment and they're speaking aboutit and educating others about that.
So that's that's great.And you know, what's so fantastic
about that also is that you aretogether with like all generations,
(30:14):
you know, older women,younger women talking together,
communing together, learning fromeach other and connecting, which is.
Patriarchy doesn't like that.They always try to put that
division between the older women,the crones, the women with all of
these answers and wisdom that lookback on life and go, oh my gosh,
(30:37):
I was so played by the male world,the male gaze, male domination.
And we want to share that withyounger women.
But we're often separated that,oh, she's irrelevant.
Your beauty, your youth,you know, you don't need to be
in touch with these older women.And where you get discarded and
(30:58):
devalued as you age.You're told that the only thing
that matters is your sexualityand fertility. Mhm.
Invisible, invisible women as we age.Glad to be, by the way. Yeah.
Glad to be invisible. Ta ta ta.Men. Move on. Soldier. Yeah.
(31:19):
Keep on pushing.One of the speakers on this panel,
Sahti Patel, is a young Americanwoman, actually from Worcester,
Mass. Who runs? Yeah.Runs a brand new zine called
Total Woman Victory.She's, like, kind of doing a
2025 version of consciousnessraising with her magazine and
the website and everything.So so the patriarchal backlash,
(31:42):
was there anything that youdiscovered in that that we haven't
thought about or talked about that?Is the backlash bigger than you
even thought?What was interesting to me was that,
oh my gosh, how this shape shiftsacross the world in different
cultures and how differently menstrategize to control Full their
(32:07):
female population, you know.The women in their countries,
whether it's Saudi Arabia orHungary or Russia or some other,
it seems each culture or countryhas their own,
like bespoke patriarchal tacticsto control and keep women down.
(32:29):
Yeah, sadly, and one isn't worsethan the next. Honestly. Very true.
It's just like different means.Same problem. Yeah, 100%.
And it's easy for us here in theWest to look at the burka and
cry about it.But we have our own means of
oppression here.
(32:58):
All right.Take us to some other sessions. Yeah.
The last session was one withRachel Hewitt, Victoria Smith,
Onjali Rauf and Susanna Rustin.It was about the erasure of women's
history, and each woman on thepanel spoke of different sort of
(33:20):
chapters of erased women's history.It was just fascinating.
I won't go into details,but when you heard these women speak
about their different historicalchapters, you realise that, oh,
this is all so by design.This like erasure of women's
names and women's presence andwomen's accomplishments.
(33:40):
It is by design. Yeah.I was watching something where they
were talking about the statues inCentral Park in New York City,
and just like men after menafter men's statues,
and there's like one of women,it's so disproportionate as usual.
So that was day one.I was super jetlagged.
I just had to run back to thehotel and crash out after day
(34:03):
one like it is overwhelming.See what happens when you travel
solo.You need me to shake you out of
things.I guess when you're alone,
you get to sneak away. Yeah.So crashed out. Got a thing?
A fish and chips and fell asleep.Are you killing me? Yeah.
(34:25):
I'd never had it that style before.You know, lots of, like,
brown vinegar and stuff.That would be malt vinegar,
l mop. Sure. Yeah. There you go.And salt and salt and vinegar.
We just say salt and vinegar.We don't identify the vinegar. Okay.
(34:50):
So day two come back and thingswere a little bit calmer.
They had also erected a longfence so that the protesters
were kept at a distance.But they were still like loud.
And I know that FiLiA,when they're organizing and
picking their venues, they'veoften been rejected from a venue.
(35:12):
We it was either Scotland,I think, where we went and it was
being cancelled like a few daysbefore because of the pressure
from trans rights activists.So they always have a lot of
struggles when they're dealingwith a venue because of that
possible violence.I didn't know that being feminists
(35:37):
was a controversial thing anymore.Like, and why is it why is a feminist
conference even controversial?This has been going on ten years.
It would be interesting to knowif they've always had protesters
opposing women gathering andspeaking together.
I don't know if it's gottenworse or not.
(35:58):
So day two, the first panel Iwent to was a really interesting
one about modern matriarchy,which is another interest of mine.
It was a woman from Indonesia bythe name of Mina Elvira,
who is a Minangkabau woman, and Minangkabauis the largest matriarchal or
(36:19):
matrilineal society in the world.They live kind of under or side by
side with patriarchy in Indonesia.And the patriarchy is a muslim.
They live kind of like a statewithin the state, but they keep
their matrilineal traditions alive.And she spoke about, you know,
(36:44):
how they do that, how they sortof circumvent the patriarchal
culture around them and how theypreserve their matrilineal things
like Inheritance rights are passedfrom mother to daughter only.
Yeah, the property.Land and money is owned by women
(37:07):
only.Uh, my impression of what she was
talking about, really, it was justlike, oh, my God, they're so clever.
It must have been fascinating tohear that. Like. Yes.
Tell us the answers to this.How do we get there?
We have it on a sweatshirt,but we need the answers to.
We need the blueprint.We sure do need the blueprint.
(37:29):
And the main cable culture isvery old.
The patriarchal layer that's kindof over it now is much newer.
So these matriarchal traditionsare ancient, and they've just so
been able to keep them alive.So I'm guessing there's not a
website we could link in theshow notes we need to set out
(37:53):
next autumn trip there, please.Thank you. I would love to go.
And I know there have been Westernanthropologists who have studied with
them and documented how they managedto do this, how they pull this off.
But it was great to, like,meet an actual Minangkabau woman who's
a scholar also in modern matriarchy.So yeah, it was fascinating.
(38:25):
So then I attended yet another panelthat was literally called women and
the state and yeah, my thing. Yeah.Yeah. And not just my thing, but.
No,obviously it's top of mind for women.
That's why they probably had somany panels like that.
Because I think women areworried about that.
(38:46):
Like,are we going to lose all autonomy?
Are all of our rights going tobe rolled back?
I think we're worried. Yeah.And of course,
like part of the panel are peoplewho live in countries where women's
rights really have been taken away.So we had Joe Phoenix,
(39:09):
chaired by Marzia Babakarkhail,I don't know if I'm pronouncing
that right from Afghanistan.You had Maggy Moyo,
an African refugee living in the UK.You had Atena Daemi,
who's a Iranian refugee also.So Marzia Babakarkhail is an ex
(39:30):
judge.She grew up under the Taliban, then
experienced the Taliban crackdown.She had gone to law school pre
Taliban, became a judge and thenTaliban removed all women from
the profession.There was a attempt made on her
life and she was in the hospitalfor six months.
She fled Afghanistan and startedover her whole life in the UK at
(39:53):
the age of 42. God as a woman.You know, just a story of being
directly targeted for, you know,they wanted to remove her.
They wanted her out of existence.Educated women like you.
There's no room for you here.They wanted to erase her. Yes.
And make sure she doesn'tinfluence any of the other women.
(40:15):
Their women like her being inthe judgeship was like,
you know, couldn't have it.And then Maggie Moyo was an
African refugee.She runs an organization called
Right to Remain.She talked about the loss of
rights that women refugees have,even when they land in a Western
(40:39):
country, and how,subject to the British state,
they become just as refugees.And I think a lot of immigrants and
refugee women can attest to that.So it transfers in a way it transfers
because they leave who they werebehind in their country of origin,
(41:04):
and now they're under the controlof the state of the new country.
In the UK. Yeah.And so they're subject to all kinds
of government agencies and rulesand regulations, and their every
movement is tracked and monitoredand controlled and. And racism too.
(41:25):
Really if you think about.Heavy duty racism. Yeah, yeah.
And then at a time,she was imprisoned during the woman's
life freedom uprising in Iran.She was a feminist activist there and
fled eventually when she was, youknow, led out of prison for moments.
(41:47):
She fled on foot through themountains and sought asylum in
Canada.She talked about that journey,
also from Iran.The crackdown in Iran of the kind
of descending oppression thatwomen in Iran have experienced
in the last few decades.I don't think we have any idea what
(42:10):
some of these women go through.
The next panel I went to was thesurrogacy panel.
FiLiA stance against surrogacy andradical feminism certainly does.
(42:31):
Officially, it's viewed as justanother way to exploit women.
There's no way to do itethically or safely or humanely
or well or anything.It's just this should be abolished,
just like prostitution should be,right?
It's monetizing women's bodies.Hey, man. Exactly. Yeah.
So Julie McGee, who's a Scottishfeminist. Chaired that.
(42:56):
And she did a great job.She interviewed a French activist,
Marie Joseph David.And then they had three women,
women who have experienced surrogacy.One was a Christian surrogacy
story who agreed to do a surrogacyin the Christian context.
(43:17):
But she was very, very heavilydeceived and was put in one horrific
situation after the other throughthese really serious deceptions.
The second woman was a Britishaltruistic surrogate,
as they called themselves, which isone where payment is not involved.
(43:40):
But you create a child forfamily member or close friend.
So this woman agreed to be asurrogate for her cousin.
It turned into a massive situationof coercion and control.
And part of her agreement withthe intended parents promised
(44:01):
that she was going to be part ofthe child's life.
They reneged on that the momentthe baby was out of her belly,
and she hasn't seen the child since.An energetic and soul connection of
growing that baby inside your body asa woman, and then just not having any
(44:22):
connection to that baby afterwards.She's still the mother,
and as far as I'm concerned.Yeah, that's traumatizing for
the baby. It's traumatizing.And the idea and we can do a
whole again like separateepisode on surrogacy, but, like.
I think we need to.Yeah, there's an exchange of cells
that happens between the baby andthe mother Are that not just.
(44:47):
You're not just giving yourselvesor building this human,
but that human is also feedingback their cells into your system,
and that those cells from thosechildren stay in, in your body
for years and years and years.So that was the British surrogate.
And then the French surrogate agreedto have a baby for a gay couple.
(45:11):
So it was her egg and one of themen's sperm that made this baby.
And she had been promisedcontact and involvement,
and then they reneged on that.And then one of the fathers died.
And so this single father that wasleft neglected the child, but yet
(45:33):
didn't allow visitation for her.And people may be listening
today thinking, oh,that's a nice thing to do.
A woman to help a gay couplethat can't obviously conceive a
baby on their own or the cousin.What a generous gift to give.
Maybe, you know, infertilecouple a way to have a baby.
(45:54):
It can, on the outside,seem like it's a nice thing to do.
But these are the stories that you'retelling me that we don't hear about
the realities where it's like, no,I pay for that, and that belongs to
me, and you need to answer to me.We don't hear about that in
mainstream media.We only hear the good,
(46:16):
generous women that are doing this.And aside from the psychological,
emotional battles that happen andthe custodial battles that happen,
there's also health risks andhealth hazards and death and
disasters that are common in theindustry of surrogacy.
Yeah, it's dangerous to have a baby.We talked about that in our
(46:38):
babies episode.But the risks for surrogate
mothers are three times as highas a regular pregnancy.
Probably even, especially whenthey're implanting an egg.
That's not your egg.It's a foreign body. Exactly.
Lots of issues around that totalk about.
But the panel was essentiallyhearing these women's stories,
(47:02):
these people who had actuallyexperienced surrogacy and had turned
into activists against, as a result,just being radicalized through
the experience of being used andabused and denied their rights
through agreeing to surrogacy.Yeah. Must have been emotional.
It was emotional.A lot of tears on this panel.
(47:26):
A lot of pain.
And then the final lighthearted panelof the day was the homicide panel.
Oh, lovely.Whatever you're doing in the next
(47:48):
three days, I hope you will enjoy.It's not, you know,
just about the serious stuff.We know how to party, don't we?
Yeah, yeah.See you on the dance floor on
Saturday night. Because.So when Azula said, go out there and
have fun these next three days, she.She wasn't talking about the panels
(48:08):
you were going to in the sessions.She definitely was not talking
about any of the panels I attended.Now I'm a little bit drawn to,
like, more serious subject matter.You know,
I have to say there were, like,more not quite so serious panels.
I just happened to end up at thedark ones.
I don't know how you can have aradical feminist conference and
(48:31):
have lighthearted fun sessions.These are heavy matters.
They're important issues.And, you know, these are women
who come to speak at this,are all engaged year round in
these very serious matters,and they have things to tell us.
That's a good point. There all.And that's what I love about failure,
(48:52):
is that all of their speakersthat they bring in, you know,
this is their life's work formost of them. Absolutely.
They're living this day in, day out,all year long for many years,
fighting the good fight thathalf the time, all of us,
we don't hear about them.A lot of these women are on the
(49:12):
front lines for sure.And this one certainly was the
Femicide Panel.So this was chaired by Karen
Ingala Smith. Oh yeah.And Clarrie O'Callaghan,
who are partners at Femicide Census.Karen and Goldsmith started an
organisation called CountingDead Women UK. Yes.
(49:33):
In the absence of any data onwomen killed, right?
Was never being collected.Crazy. In this day and age.
It wouldn't even be that hard forpolice to gather that information and
create that information and data.Yeah.
So she started that organization,and then she started from that.
(49:56):
She started a femicide censuswith Clarrie O'Callaghan.
What they said very pointedly,Clarire kind of did a
presentation at the start.And she said as many women as
were attending FiLiA this year,which nearly 3000 was as many
women that had been killed bymen since 2009, in the UK.
(50:20):
Like look around the room thatwas giving you a chill.
So you see this women that you haveencountered all day, and you think
about a building full of 3000 women,and that's the number that have
been killed by men since 2009,in the UK. That's so shocking?
It's a small country.I mean, we get big numbers here in
the US, but we're a big country.Yes, and we have guns in England.
(50:44):
They don't. That's right.Then we also had Cherry Smiley, who's
an indigenous woman from Canada,and Ninotchka Rosca, who's a veteran
feminist from the Philippines,and Sharon Holland, the woman from
the UK whose daughter committedsuicide because of domestic abuse.
And so, between all of the panelists,I think they sort of painted
(51:10):
this picture of femicide fromvery different viewpoints. Yeah.
Cherry Smiley talked aboutmissing and murdered women,
indigenous women in Canada andthe causes of femicide in Canada.
Ninotchka Rosca talked about howthe Filipino state kind of uses Is
(51:33):
the public murder of women as ameans to terrorize the population.
In what way?In the regime of Duterte, who's
actually now imprisoned in The Hagueon trial for crimes against humanity.
Rodrigo Duterte was doing somethingthat is kind of what the Trump
(51:57):
administration is now trying to do,which is to clean up the streets.
It's a war against drugs,essentially,
but it turned into just state terroragainst the general population.
A lot of random violence againstcivilians and a general
population in the Philippines,and in particular against women.
(52:21):
They killed women in very grislymanners and in very public manner,
displaying the corpse kind of inpublic, really, just to strike fear
and terror in people in general.To comply into compliance. Yeah.
And hello, this is a wake up call.This is what we're going through
(52:43):
here. Exactly that.You and I both have talked about
how upsetting it is to see theseIce raids and what they're doing,
and this excuse to throw womenon the ground with a knee to
their neck and on their chest,multiple men, weapons drawn.
And handcuff her and take her whatshe's like, not even fighting back.
(53:07):
We're seeing it more and more onour social media,
just like you described ice.These like men in military tactical
gear going after small unarmed womenof all sorts, women and children,
by the way, and this kind ofterror that Ninotchka talked about
(53:29):
in the Philippines is feelingmore and more familiar, and.
You almost get numb to it becauseyou're seeing it every day. Yeah.
As more and more people post, it'slowering our shock factor about it.
I know there was one a couple ofweeks ago with a childcare worker.
Yeah,dragged out the childcare facility.
(53:52):
In front of like, infants. Yeah.And she's she's not violent criminal.
If you attack women in public,if you brutalize women in public,
you're going to strike fear inthe hearts of everyone.
You're going to have a fearful,obedient populace because it is
effective in that way to use terror.And, you know,
(54:15):
if there's any justice in the world,this whole story will end up exactly
where Duterte is at the moment,which is the International
Criminal Court in The Hague. Yeah.Attacking innocent women and
children.
(54:38):
So that wrapped up day two.Yes, and I. Skipped the party.
There was an. All. Oh, the big disco.The disco. I know, yeah.
It was a all women's dance partyat the end of day two.
And when I heard what happened,I couldn't have been happier to
have skipped that. Tell me.I don't want to go too deep into
(55:01):
it because I wasn't there.I actually didn't see it.
So everything I'm talking aboutis just like, allegedly.
But what I heard was that peoplewere being provocative with their
political kind of demonstrations,and there were drinks thrown.
There were kerfuffle was therewere security called.
(55:22):
There were people getting thrown outof the party. It wasn't a good time.
It doesn't sound like it.I mean, for goodness sake.
This is all women.We were just talking about how nice
it is to be safe in that space.You don't want to feel guarded.
I don't understand why theybrought it there into.
Especially at the party.But feel your overall, like,
(55:44):
keep the politics out of it.We're here for a common goal.
Yes. Yes, certainly.But I also think women are divided.
Women are going to be divided.We're going to come from
different viewpoints.We're not going to all agree on
stuff.We are sharply divided in a lot of
different ways, and I think we'regoing to have to learn to dialogue in
(56:09):
spite of those divisions, certainlynot get into bar brawls at least.
Do you think the people that wereinvolved in this were trying to
sabotage the event in some way?No, honestly.
It's just like maybe too many drinksand things got out of hand. Hang.
That was my impression that, like,people got overly aggressive, got
(56:30):
into each other's faces and. Yeah.And that's a shame,
because I know even though youand I haven't gone to the disco.
Actually, our younger listenersare probably like a disco.
Why are you calling it a disco?But they do call it that.
I just want to say, that's not us.We're not that old.
Well, we are, but.But that that's such a highlight of
(56:53):
FiLiA that it is a kind of joyful,like, free spirit.
Let it all go and enjoy thesisterhood.
That's just a shame, really,to hear. Yeah, it was a shame.
And you could also on day three whenwe arrived, you could definitely
sense and hear the tea being spilledall over in all the halls, you know,
(57:16):
people gossiping and taking sides andetc. so that wasn't amazing either.
Not a big thing I think is kindof a blip on the radar.
But, you know, some people in theaftermath of FiLiA's, you know,
there were all kinds of articlesbeing written about FiLiA should
(57:37):
get shut down. They have no shame.No. That's ridiculous.
Like how short sighted? Yes.For some differences of opinion.
You know, this event that's soincredibly important. Yeah.
And served so many women and so manyvoices. No, you should be shut down.
(57:58):
Whoever's saying that,it should be shut down.
You should be shut down. Yeah.I just think to treat it as this kind
of like a trivial event that doesn'thave any more meaning than that,
I think, is just, like,completely misplaced.
This is a crucial gathering. Yeah.And also, the ability to gather
(58:21):
as women is crucial.Even with those conflicts that
happened, and maybe some naivete onthe part of FiLiA about like who was
coming and what they were saying, andmaybe FiLiA hadn't done due diligence
in terms of like vetting who wascoming and what their opinions were.
But but even so,even with this tension, like,
(58:45):
it's not clear exactly where FiLiAthemselves are landing in this,
but I think they were definitelynaive, not considering that this
clash might happen.Well, they know now,
and I'm sure that will shape thingsin some way going forward. Yes.
(59:05):
Just upsetting you travel allthis way.
You're looking forward to thisevent for a long time.
The organizers, I mean,they've been working on this huge
amount of organizers for two years.And so for something like that
to just leave a little bit of abad taste in your mouth.
That's unfortunate.
(59:39):
So day three was kind of like awind down sort of day.
And I attended a panel that wasanother panel, kind of like the
state as a perpetrator ofviolence against women.
So a little bit the same themewith some other speakers.
There was Clarice Saadi fromMATRIA in Brazil. Yes.
(01:00:02):
She had an interesting story totell about.
Women in Brazil are really,at the moment attacked both from
the left and from the right.So from the right you have the
conservative far right.Part of the powers that be, part
of the government that's crackingdown on abortion and divorce and
birth control and everything else,controlling women in that way.
(01:00:26):
And then you have the left.Who's coming after women over
gender ideology.Brazilian institutions have become
very captured by gender ideology,and feminists who express
opposition to gender ideology andwho won't acknowledge trans women
(01:00:47):
or women and trans men or men,or will fight for women's sex based
rights as opposed to gender ideology,are viciously attacked.
In fact, there are women in Brazilwho have been charged with hate
crimes and who have been imprisoned.There are Brazilian women who
(01:01:09):
have escaped the country and havesought amnesty in Western countries
because they fear for their livesand their rights in Brazil. So.
So she talked about that,this woman Frohar Poya who works
with European Network of Migrantwomen from Afghanistan.
(01:01:32):
So she talked about that more onstate violence.
You must have come back to theUS like listen to all this like
we're in trouble.I'm seeing signs of things that
they were talking about in theirnative countries. It was a lot.
It was a lot to take in a lot ofemotions.
(01:01:53):
High emotion, a lot of energy,a lot of upset, but also elation.
And, you know, it was just like avery intense experience overall.
Sounds. Yeah.I mean, you've been so you know,
what it can feel like in theaftermath you just spent.
But when I landed, I think mytakeaway was Is that feminism.
(01:02:18):
As a movement, have been dormantor sleep for like years and years,
and that we as feminists in the West,certainly, or what I grew up with,
we grew up with, were just likemeekly asking for so little and
being completely co-opted by ourcultures into believing in all this
(01:02:45):
empowerment girl power bullshit.And we've kind of like, bought
all of that. Like, porn is cool.Prostitution and sex workers work
like all of the things that havehave turned feminism into something
unrecognizable to me. Yeah.And you go to a gathering like this,
(01:03:07):
and you get a full scope of whatwomen are experiencing And up against
in countries around the world.Like you get a full 360 view and
you understand that if we are tolike change this at all for
women around the world,the feminism that we call feminism
(01:03:31):
today is not going to do the job. No.I remember exactly what you're
saying.Like the vastness of what women
face around the world after goingto FiLiA, I had a much bigger
picture and it was overwhelming.It was like, what hope do we have?
(01:03:53):
Honestly, what the heck do we have?Yeah, we can fight our little
tiny piece of the fight,and they're doing their little piece
of the fight. But it's a mammoth.Herculean task to like,
turn the tide, you know,turn the tide for for women.
And I think gathering like FiLiAis one way to coalesce around
(01:04:24):
these issues and to gather and getstrength from these communities.
Learn about what other women aredoing.
Have face to face conversationsaround meals, and take in what
women are doing around the world,what they're up against and how
(01:04:47):
they're fighting it.We can at times feel like we're
all in our parts of the world,and we're safe for now.
You know, for now,we're okay for now.
And then we can look to otherplaces and we can literally see
and hear from women who,in countries where they were at
(01:05:07):
some point, okay, for now, andthey're not okay any longer at all.
I wonder, actually, if any of thosewomen from those countries that
saw the the steep decline in theirrights and autonomy and freedom,
whether they look at the US,let's say, or the UK and they say,
(01:05:28):
oh, this is what we it's how itstarted with us. Exactly.
How do we push back in the mosteffective way?
How do we mount an effectiveresistance to the sort of coercive
control creep that's happening?Yeah, we need more women in power.
Yes, we need more women leadersat every level. Yeah.
(01:05:52):
And we need more fearless.We do. We do.
Even so, even with all theconflicts and everything else,
we need more failures.Even if it was a difficult gathering,
it was it was not a warm hug.It was more like chaotic and,
you know, a lot of tension andfriction and didn't leave every day
with like this good warm feeling.But even so, even so, I came away
(01:06:17):
feeling like this is crucial.Yeah, it sounds like it.
We have to prioritize thatconnectedness.
As soon as we all become isolated,then that's an alarm bell.
We have to stay connected.As women, we've never been more
connected, but who knows whatthe heck we're going into? Yeah.
(01:06:41):
Where there's restrictions orinternet or whatever.
We don't know. We don't know.We know some countries have that
where they really are isolated.And I remember hearing on a panel in
Cardiff about a woman from Iran,I think she was talking about just
the only thing she had was a radio,and that was the only way she could
(01:07:02):
hear anything connected to otherwomen or feminists was through radio
and trying to get into nationalradio. So yeah, it is critical.
The conference itself is critical andI can only see it getting larger.
Or just maybe they need more of them.I also think FiLiA is determined,
(01:07:26):
you know, in the aftermath.They've written several newsletters
and kind of messages to attendanceand, and about what their, you know,
where they're going from here.And I think they are absolutely
committed to learning from everythingthat happened and to do better
in the future. I'm inspired.And also I feel a little heavy
after the conversation, which Iremember feeling coming away from
(01:07:51):
FiLiA to just again about the thevastness of the problem that we're
facing and try to remain hopeful.Yeah, the women will come out
okay from all of this?Next, it's in Blackpool. Blackpool?
Not exactly where I want to go, butokay. Why did they pick Blackpool?
(01:08:15):
They pick Blackpool.Because Blackpool is a very
depressed area. Sure is.And you know when FiLiA comes to
town, it uplifts and they pumpmoney into the economy.
And they give a lot of peoplethings to do.
And they also shed light oneverything that is happening.
(01:08:39):
Whatever the issues,the problems are because we know
that when a place is depressed,guess who suffers the most?
Women? Okay, that makes sense.Then they want to turn their
attention to Blackpool, and I'm sureit'll be a much smaller affair.
Well, I look forward to gettinga stick of rock at Blackpool.
(01:09:01):
Did you see the sticks of rockin Brighton?
No, it's a long piece of candyand it has the name in it,
and it's traditional.You would go on holiday in England
by the seaside and get a stick,a rock. Oh. That's the. Cutest.
Thing in the world.So we'll go to Blackpool and we'll
take a picture with that sticksof Blackpool rock. Love that.
(01:09:23):
Okay, see you next time.See you next time.
The thing that is reallyimportant about women's
liberation is collective action.No single woman would be where
they are today if it wasn't forthe women's liberation movement.
(01:09:47):
Hi. Hi. Thank you for listening.To chat in the comments.
We would love to hear from youabout anything we talked about
on this episode. Ode.You can reach us via our social
media or on our website,Chat In The Commons dot com.
(01:10:09):
You can also find links to allthe resources mentioned in this
episode in the show notes.If you like what we're doing here,
please share with all of yourfriends.
And the best way to support our workis to follow us on your podcast app.
Chat In The Commons is producedby me,
Natalie Blundell and Elle Kamihira.Audio Engineering by Jason
(01:10:32):
Sheesley at Abridged Audio.Artwork by Reda Tomingas.
Music by Midnight Door.Theme song by Moushumi.
You got no conscience.So I'll do it again. Again.
(01:10:55):
I'll do it again and again and again.
Ha! Ha ha ha ha!Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
(00:25):
Welcome back to Chat In The Commons,where we tear it all down.
One sensible conversation at a time.I'm Natalie Blundell.
I'm in the corporate world and alsothe founder of an online support
network. And I'm Elle Kamihira.I'm a documentary producer and
podcast host.
(00:53):
We actually have another kind ofspecial episode for you today.
Yes, yes, we did one earlier inthe fall called women in the wild.
And we're going to take you on ajourney in a similar way to the
feminist events that you and Ilove to go to every year.
I wasn't able to go with you,unfortunately.
(01:16):
Well, no, but I am actually soexcited that we're finally recording
this because I get to hear about it.We've not talked about it.
I know I've been dying to tell youall about it, and we just haven't.
Yeah,I really wanted to have a beginner's
mind to hear about what went downand the experience that you felt.
Going to Brighton, England,to the FiLiA conference. Yeah.
(01:41):
And so I just want to like forbackground,
I don't think feminist gatheringsare all that common these days,
certainly not in this country.It's not like your girlfriends all
like travel to feminist conferencesor whatever. It's fairly unusual.
And we traveled to FiLiA twicebefore.
The first year we went toCardiff 2022 Glasgow 2023.
(02:07):
So this year it was actuallyFiLiA's 10th year anniversary.
It was an extra large, you know,attended by like upwards of 3000
women from all over the world.The venue was in Brighton, which is a
small beach town in southern England.Really, really pretty place.
And so I traveled there and we'regoing to take you along. Yeah.
(02:31):
And they did pick Brighton becausethat was the first conference they
had, I think with maybe a hundredpeople or something. Ten years ago.
In 2013 actually was the first.Oh 2013 yeah, yeah. Okay.
Because they've skipped a coupleof years. Well, yeah.
And this conference with over300 speakers, as I understand,
took two years to plan.So there wasn't a conference last
(02:54):
year. So it was a big event.FiLiA is founded by Lisa Marie
Taylor, who's still the CEO and anarmy of volunteers who put this
conference together each year.So they changed location each
conference, and they work closelywith women's organizations in those
(03:16):
places, and the local women in thetowns that they're holding it.
Yeah, it's almost to raise thevibration or the consciousness
of the town, not just drop infor a three day event and leave,
but they really work within thecommunity, which is a great part of.
And what makes FiLiA very differentthan other conferences? Yes.
(03:36):
There are so many local womenwho've gifted their time.
I mean, just in terms of the energy,the creative narrative across
everything, the banners,the screens, the witches room.
I mean, I don't know whose fullit is, but I love it.
Um, and, uh, just,I think collectively as a sisterhood,
can we thank the local women forhaving us and is. Helping us today?
(04:00):
But as local as it is,it is equally global. Mhm.
The amount of women from amountof countries and continents from
around the world that I saw at thisconference was just absolutely
mind blowing. It's a melting pot.And I bet you heard about things
(04:20):
or conversations or sessions thatyou would never have known that was
going on unless you went there.Yes, we all live in our own
local worlds, right?And, uh, don't necessarily have
an eye into how other women livein different cultures.
And it was very, very eye opening.Let's go. Let's go to Brighton.
(04:48):
Um, at the airport, waiting to board.Um, and now taking an overnight
flight to London and then atrain ride to Brighton.
Good morning everyone,as the captain is sure to send
you to London's Heathrow Airport.If you haven't,
please return to your seats andpass your seatbelts for the flight.
In just a few moments since,we've been coming back through the
(05:09):
cabins in the International Garden.We are now arriving at Acton
Mainline.Mind the gap between the train
and the platform.Just arrived in Brighton and are
(05:31):
walking down the station.To find a cab to go to the hotel.
It's overcast and the Brightontrain station.
It's really beautiful, actually.So now it's evening.
(05:53):
It's, um, sunset,and I'm looking out over an
absolutely gorgeous view in Brighton.And I think I see the conference
center, Brighton Center,where FiLiA will take place.
It is, uh, lit up in purple.
(06:24):
I headed to FiLiA.It's a lot, and I'm getting there
early to register and check in.Just taking in the hotel,
taking the elevator down to theto the first floor. I'm nervous.
There's going to be a lot,a lot, a lot of women there.
Some of whom I know, um, and some Idon't. A lot of a lot of new friends.
(07:01):
I know.
That opening music gets me everytime, the two years that I was there
in person, but it seemed like itwas even more elevated this time.
(07:27):
The energy was electric.I have to say.
But that said, women who attendedthat first day, we had to make it
through a gauntlet of protesters.So the venue, it's a glass building.
And when we arrived in the morning,protesters had broken almost half the
(07:48):
bottom half of the glass building.And they were it was glass
everywhere.They had spray painted the
entire front of the building.So they did this all overnight.
Overnight before the opening day?Yes. So it was completely vandalized.
Do they really think it's goingto deter women from walking in?
Well, the protesters wereprotesting so-called TERFs.
(08:14):
Was the idea there trans activists?There weren't many of them,
maybe like 20 or 30 people, but theywere standing right at the entrance.
So the entire file of womenwalking through were subjected
to screams and shouts and very,very aggressive men and women both.
(08:34):
They had the siren machines.Women were traumatized and
frightened, actually.So like on the megaphone,
you're saying like the megaphone,there's a siren button. Exactly.
And just really a hardship for likeall the women who had sacrificed
to be there from all over. Sure.And I think the thing that gets me
(08:56):
to is they think we're going inthere and talking about anti-trans.
It's not a focus of the conference.Yeah, I didn't go to a single panel
that talked about transgenderismor gender ideology at all.
I know there were somewell-known TERFs in there,
but there were no panels about itthat I know of or that I attended.
(09:17):
So the demonstration felt to mejust very out of place and very
inappropriate.Like, what are you protesting?
Are you just protesting women orfeminists in general?
Like, I didn't get it at all.And for listeners that may not know
what a TERF is. Would you just mind?Yeah, it's a slur essentially
(09:38):
trans excluding radical feminist.Right. Is what it stands for.
But at this point in the UK,I think we don't call it Terf
Island for nothing.And so, you know, a lot of feminists
have engaged in the battle forwomen's sex based rights and FiLiA
(10:00):
certainly is that also fightingfor women's sex based rights?
Very articulately that.But that said,
transgenderism or gender ideologyis such a small issue compared to
all of the other battles that womenare engaged in all over the world.
(10:21):
Yeah, to the point that it even feelslike it's a distraction to just
focus on it. Giving it attention.Yeah, all the attention the media has
given it for such a small minorityof people, when we are when we're
in legal battles and other thingsover transgenderism or trans rights,
there's a whole lot of other badthings that are happening for women
(10:42):
that is taking our attention awayfrom this to focus on that. So yeah.
And I just want to say a lastthing about that demonstration.
So there is a huge focus overall,FiLiA, of violence against
women in various forms,male violence against women.
And so here we have a demonstrationof male violence against women,
(11:06):
essentially right at the buildingwhere we're having this conference.
So the ironies like crazy. Yeah.I'm I'm standing in line.
It is a very, very long queue.And the protesters are up front,
but there are police kind ofpatrolling the line and also
(11:30):
security folks and ushers.So it's a fairly small group,
and I doubt that they'll be herethe other days.
So once everyone got in and checkedin through security and all of that,
we gathered in the main auditoriumand attended the opening.
(11:50):
And that's what the music youjust heard, which was it was
truly electric. Yeah.Just to be in a hall full of so
many women from everywhere andthe stage was beautiful.
It had this like design of FiLiAthrough the ages from 2013 till 2025.
Everything was like bathed inpurple light and like it was
(12:13):
gorgeous and everybody was in,you know, incredibly high
spirits and supporting everyspeaker that came out.
And the emcee ran the show likea circus director. It was fun.
And what I really appreciated wasthat they talked about Brighton's
history of suffragettes.The women's suffragette movement
(12:37):
was really strong in Brighton.And so they talked about all the
heroes Emmeline Pankhurst,Mary Clarke,
all of these people who sacrificed.And I think feminists these days
don't know.They look at these like Victorian
ladies and like elaboratedresses and they think, oh,
(12:57):
that's such a long time ago.And it was like kind of a romantic
fight. It was not. It was violent.It was very, very violent.
And men beat women,beat these suffragettes to death
several times, like Mary Clarke wasbeaten to death in the streets.
For having a voice,for standing up, for pushing back.
(13:18):
For wanting a vote,wanting to participate politically.
We have forgotten how hard thisfight has been.
Here in the US as well. You're right.You look at those old photos and
the the big sashes and the whitedresses and it feels unrelatable.
(13:39):
Yeah, like it happened in awhole different time.
That has nothing to do with thepresent. Mhm.
Well that's great that they broughtthat in and I did not realize that
happened. Brighton too. Yeah.It's a kind of a feminist
stronghold Brighton.And you kind of realize like why they
put the 10th anniversary conferencethere. Yeah. So that was cool.
And then there were a few kindof veteran feminists that
(14:03):
welcomed everyone and, you know,kind of a rousing, welcoming speech
about everything that we're facingand what we're going to be talking
about and who we're going to meet.One of the most exciting,
welcoming speakers,I thought was Esua Goldsmith, and
she just said some profound things.And, uh, let's play some of her.
(14:27):
Collection is something thatRahila talks about,
and it's really, really important.And we're doing that to this day.
75 countries represented in thisroom. How brilliant is that? That.
And I've spent my whole life workingin the international feminist
movement in every continent,working with women at grassroots,
up to national.And it's just it gives you that
(14:49):
kind of feeling.I think feminism and women's
liberation is an emotion.It's not just an ideology.
It's not just a system of thought.It's not just a world through
which we look at the world.It is a lens through which we look
at the world. It is an emotion.Just when you think about what
we're up against.It's the the economics and the mega
(15:09):
capitalism and the environmentalcrisis, the pandemic, racism,
colonialism, crisis in housing andall those other issues and crisis in
democracy itself where people arelosing faith in leadership to lead.
So all women hitting womenparticularly hard.
And I think since the wordfeminism was was invented and
(15:34):
since the word the phrasewomen's liberation was coined,
there's been a backlash against it.In my opinion, people didn't like
it as soon as they heard about it.Of course,
because this is the you know,we are living in the patriarchy.
It's absolutely incredible.I mean, she's been doing this.
It sounds a long time in this space,not only as a feminist, but as a
(15:59):
black woman facing such racism inEngland during the last 50 years.
Incredible. Absolute veteran.I will see you around, but whatever
you do, have a fabulous time. Women.I'd love to hear some of the things
(16:20):
that you attended, or what you werehearing in the hallways, because
I wanted to be there so badly.I know, I know, I felt a little
alone without you by my side.I have to admit,
because we had done this together.Yeah, I know that was our thing.
And it broke my heart.Obviously,
(16:42):
I was doing something very special.My daughter was getting married,
so I had to be here. But, uh. Oh.I wasn't jealous that you were there.
I was glad one of us was there.There were just so many moments where
you just had to, like, be there.And if you remember,
when we're in Cardiff, when we wentto for the first time together,
(17:03):
like, I think a lot of women feellost in the current feminism and
not sure if like feminism is forthem or whether it's accomplishing
things anymore or whether it'sneeded anymore, etc. and I think
(17:25):
when we went in 2022 to Cardiff,like I think we were in a little bit
that same position where it's like,well, I don't know.
You know, it says for us, really.I did not know what to expect.
I was just happy to like,travel with the sister type of thing.
And it was life changing thatfirst one for me.
(17:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for me as well.I mean, I knew a little bit more
what to expect,but still it was just the atmosphere.
When you arrive in the building withonly women, like the welcoming and
the warmth and the sort of sisterhoodis just, you cannot describe.
That energy part of being basicallyan all women's space and an all
(18:11):
women's event. You do feel safe.It doesn't feel like you're
being judged in any way or haveany safety issues.
You're not looking after your purse.You're not looking after your wallet.
You're not looking after your assor your tits or anything else.
You know,you are completely at ease. Yes.
And I think that's hard for alot of women to appreciate.
(18:34):
Like feeling that way.You don't know what that feels like
until you are at an event like FiLiA.And then you suddenly realize,
oh, all my cortisol adrenalinelevels are all down. Exactly.
It's like a sigh of relief thatyou're in this space,
and it feels good, and it nurturessome part of the heart or the soul.
(18:58):
You're in throngs and throngs ofwomen from absolutely every
corner of the globe.You know, you have African women,
Chinese women, South American women,Swedish women, representatives
from absolutely everywhere.It's like the Olympics,
the Olympics, the feminisms.It is absolutely like the Olympics.
(19:20):
I kind of had my eye on panelsthat talked about, and this is
kind of where my interest is.You know, panels that talked about
the status of women worldwide.That's where my interest was
this year.Like big picture,
like the relationship between womenand nation states that they are in.
And so that is what I gravitatedtowards for much of the conference.
(19:43):
And so the first panel that I wentto was feminism and militarism,
essentially.And on the panel was a Palestinian
poet, Rouda Morcos, Israeli peaceactivist, Yvonne Deutsch, Serbian
peace activist Lepa Mjaldovic,and Saudi academic Miriam Aldossari.
(20:04):
This panel was chaired byBronwyn Winter.
But you know,you can imagine here we are at a
feminist conference in Brighton, UK,and you have a Palestinian woman,
an Israeli woman,a Serbian woman and a Saudi woman
talking about what women facewith men's military might Right.
(20:26):
And so in some sense, my take awayfrom like the entire conversation
and it wasn't an easy conversation,was that we acknowledged that we
don't have any power as women.These are patriarchal wars.
They are patriarchal conflicts.Military is a male affair.
(20:51):
And we can sit here and ruminate andtell you what we would rather do to
create peace, to move towards peace,and to avoid the horrific things
that are happening in the world.But we're women.
We are only women,and we don't have the power to
(21:15):
affect these large geopoliticalchanges that we wish we could.
That was kind of the thetakeaway for me from that.
Very sad. Yeah, exactly.I was saying that I would think
that that would be a very heavyfeeling to walk away from.
It doesn't matter how far we'veprogressed and how many rights we've
(21:36):
gotten in that kind of nation staterelationship, we're still powerless.
And, you know, we have words,but we only have words.
And we have organizations who arepolitical activists, etc. but we
aren't the powers. Yeah. Sorry.I just for a second had a little
(21:58):
fantasy of, well,how would that ever change?
And my mind very quickly went towhat if just some kind of virus
attacked only the male of species,the male gene that's here for me.
I don't see how how we would ever getthere without something like that.
Sorry, man.I'm sure you are not the only one
(22:21):
who's had that fantasy, In fact,I heard several women in the course
of the three days at FiLiA kind ofvoice is similar sentiments. Wow.
Yeah,the despair runs pretty deep in that.
And, you know, again,and we've talked about this before.
(22:44):
You know, we're watching severalgenocides happen.
The primary victims are womenand children and the elderly.
And the violence just is orgiastic.It is just relentless.
And it it is done by men fromstart to finish. Yeah.
(23:05):
And the violence begets violence.It just seems to just keep on going.
We're always in some kind of wars orwars somewhere in the world. Exactly.
This panel, this first panel kind ofset the tone for me a little bit.
A good portion of the group ofattendees at the panel were
(23:27):
pro-Palestine or Free Palestine.They were came in varying Cepheus,
and I think that I started to feel atthis point, I started to feel that
friction between the pro-PalestinianFree Palestine contingent of
(23:49):
FiLiA attendees and people whowere then claiming anti-Semitism,
or there was definitely Jewish womenthat attended, were deeply offended.
I think overall at the how loud andhow much space the Stop the Genocide
(24:11):
or Free Palestine people were.So that was right from the get go.
You could feel that right from thatfirst session. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, how did that land in you?Were you expecting something
like that?That feeling was going to be the
space where women were going tobring that in. Not at all.
It really shocked me.And I have to say, like,
(24:34):
personally, what shocked me andkind of what I really wish just
for a different world, I suppose.But these are old patriarchal wars.
They're imperial wars.They are fought with terrorism
and state violence.And I feel that the idea of women
(24:59):
stepping into these patriarchalwars and taking sides and standing
against one another on behalf of thispatriarchal side or that patriarchal
side, just filled me with despair.I understand women don't live
outside their culture.I understand that women don't choose,
(25:19):
like whether they're Jewish orPalestinian or any other ethnicity.
So it's not like you can juststep outside of your religion or
your culture.You are born into it. We all are.
And so I don't expect women to,like, set aside their inborn
cultures or inborn religions.I don't think that's possible,
(25:41):
but I do wish there was maybe moreacknowledgement of, like these wars,
these atrocities, this terrorismthat happens is on account of
patriarchal men who are doing this.It's not a woman's affair.
Let's never lose sight of that,because when we get pulled into it,
(26:03):
then we are part of the problem too.Then we are the patriarchal
maidens getting involved.We're just taking sides.
I think women know that if we'regoing to have peace in the world.
Women need to lead that.I don't think we can leave it to
the patriarchs to do this.We'll just have more war. Yeah.
(26:25):
We don't need a department of war.It was renamed here.
The Department of Defense is nowthe Department of War.
We need a Department of Peace.Why are we continuing to prop up
thoughts of war and violence?Where's their Department of Peace?
That's the goal, is it not?That is the goal, exactly. Yeah.
(26:49):
And so to kind of clock the wholePalestinian Jewish friction and
tension in the space so early in theconference colored my experience,
no doubt.
(27:13):
The next session I attended wascalled beyond the misogynist
backlash.That sounds right up our alley.
We have said we're going through amajor awakening, a mass awakening.
We have said that we're amidst apatriarchal backlash.
And that is exactly what thesewomen talked about. Wow.
(27:35):
Sonya Sohda chaired it.She's a British broadcaster,
reporter, very sharp and did agreat job handling.
And then it was Sahti Patel fromTotal Woman Victory.
Krisztina Les,who's a young Hungarian feminist.
Then Li Wen Qin is a radicalfeminist from China.
(27:57):
And then Max Dashu, who is a Americanwomen's history researcher.
Powerful panel. Gosh, yes.And so each of these women talked
about completely different aspectsof the misogynist backlash.
(28:19):
So we got a Chinese perspective.We got a Hungarian perspective.
We got kind of a world historyperspective from Max, I love her.
I'm such a big fan of hers.She runs the Repressed History
Archives.She's been working on it since the
70s, and she has essentially likeunearthed enormous library of women's
(28:43):
history, women's visual history.They just gave such a varied
perspective on Krisztina talkedabout how in Hungary it has become
extremely patriarchal and very,very conservative.
Now with crackdown on divorceand abortion and birth control.
Really? Yeah.I feel like we don't hear anything
(29:04):
in the news about Hungary.Eastern Europe is still so like
unknown in a sense to us.I think she's also young.
And that was another thing aboutthe whole conference, by the way,
when we went in 2022, you know, itskewed older, middle age, whatever.
This year was so young, really.I want to say half the attendants
(29:30):
were in their 20s or early 30s.That's so encouraging.
I know it was amazing how manyyoung women there were both on
the panels and attendance.So it shows you like young women
are coming to radical feminismor feminism, period.
Especially if they were on panelsand speakers that they're willing,
(29:53):
you know, they've got enoughknowledge, even in their 20 years
on Earth or 30 years on Earth,that they know things are not good at
the moment and they're speaking aboutit and educating others about that.
So that's that's great.And you know, what's so fantastic
about that also is that you aretogether with like all generations,
(30:14):
you know, older women,younger women talking together,
communing together, learning fromeach other and connecting, which is.
Patriarchy doesn't like that.They always try to put that
division between the older women,the crones, the women with all of
these answers and wisdom that lookback on life and go, oh my gosh,
(30:37):
I was so played by the male world,the male gaze, male domination.
And we want to share that withyounger women.
But we're often separated that,oh, she's irrelevant.
Your beauty, your youth,you know, you don't need to be
in touch with these older women.And where you get discarded and
(30:58):
devalued as you age.You're told that the only thing
that matters is your sexualityand fertility. Mhm.
Invisible, invisible women as we age.Glad to be, by the way. Yeah.
Glad to be invisible. Ta ta ta.Men. Move on. Soldier. Yeah.
(31:19):
Keep on pushing.One of the speakers on this panel,
Sahti Patel, is a young Americanwoman, actually from Worcester,
Mass. Who runs? Yeah.Runs a brand new zine called
Total Woman Victory.She's, like, kind of doing a
2025 version of consciousnessraising with her magazine and
the website and everything.So so the patriarchal backlash,
(31:42):
was there anything that youdiscovered in that that we haven't
thought about or talked about that?Is the backlash bigger than you
even thought?What was interesting to me was that,
oh my gosh, how this shape shiftsacross the world in different
cultures and how differently menstrategize to control Full their
(32:07):
female population, you know.The women in their countries,
whether it's Saudi Arabia orHungary or Russia or some other,
it seems each culture or countryhas their own,
like bespoke patriarchal tacticsto control and keep women down.
(32:29):
Yeah, sadly, and one isn't worsethan the next. Honestly. Very true.
It's just like different means.Same problem. Yeah, 100%.
And it's easy for us here in theWest to look at the burka and
cry about it.But we have our own means of
oppression here.
(32:58):
All right.Take us to some other sessions. Yeah.
The last session was one withRachel Hewitt, Victoria Smith,
Onjali Rauf and Susanna Rustin.It was about the erasure of women's
history, and each woman on thepanel spoke of different sort of
(33:20):
chapters of erased women's history.It was just fascinating.
I won't go into details,but when you heard these women speak
about their different historicalchapters, you realise that, oh,
this is all so by design.This like erasure of women's
names and women's presence andwomen's accomplishments.
(33:40):
It is by design. Yeah.I was watching something where they
were talking about the statues inCentral Park in New York City,
and just like men after menafter men's statues,
and there's like one of women,it's so disproportionate as usual.
So that was day one.I was super jetlagged.
I just had to run back to thehotel and crash out after day
(34:03):
one like it is overwhelming.See what happens when you travel
solo.You need me to shake you out of
things.I guess when you're alone,
you get to sneak away. Yeah.So crashed out. Got a thing?
A fish and chips and fell asleep.Are you killing me? Yeah.
(34:25):
I'd never had it that style before.You know, lots of, like,
brown vinegar and stuff.That would be malt vinegar,
l mop. Sure. Yeah. There you go.And salt and salt and vinegar.
We just say salt and vinegar.We don't identify the vinegar. Okay.
(34:50):
So day two come back and thingswere a little bit calmer.
They had also erected a longfence so that the protesters
were kept at a distance.But they were still like loud.
And I know that FiLiA,when they're organizing and
picking their venues, they'veoften been rejected from a venue.
(35:12):
We it was either Scotland,I think, where we went and it was
being cancelled like a few daysbefore because of the pressure
from trans rights activists.So they always have a lot of
struggles when they're dealingwith a venue because of that
possible violence.I didn't know that being feminists
(35:37):
was a controversial thing anymore.Like, and why is it why is a feminist
conference even controversial?This has been going on ten years.
It would be interesting to knowif they've always had protesters
opposing women gathering andspeaking together.
I don't know if it's gottenworse or not.
(35:58):
So day two, the first panel Iwent to was a really interesting
one about modern matriarchy,which is another interest of mine.
It was a woman from Indonesia bythe name of Mina Elvira,
who is a Minangkabau woman, and Minangkabauis the largest matriarchal or
(36:19):
matrilineal society in the world.They live kind of under or side by
side with patriarchy in Indonesia.And the patriarchy is a muslim.
They live kind of like a statewithin the state, but they keep
their matrilineal traditions alive.And she spoke about, you know,
(36:44):
how they do that, how they sortof circumvent the patriarchal
culture around them and how theypreserve their matrilineal things
like Inheritance rights are passedfrom mother to daughter only.
Yeah, the property.Land and money is owned by women
(37:07):
only.Uh, my impression of what she was
talking about, really, it was justlike, oh, my God, they're so clever.
It must have been fascinating tohear that. Like. Yes.
Tell us the answers to this.How do we get there?
We have it on a sweatshirt,but we need the answers to.
We need the blueprint.We sure do need the blueprint.
(37:29):
And the main cable culture isvery old.
The patriarchal layer that's kindof over it now is much newer.
So these matriarchal traditionsare ancient, and they've just so
been able to keep them alive.So I'm guessing there's not a
website we could link in theshow notes we need to set out
(37:53):
next autumn trip there, please.Thank you. I would love to go.
And I know there have been Westernanthropologists who have studied with
them and documented how they managedto do this, how they pull this off.
But it was great to, like,meet an actual Minangkabau woman who's
a scholar also in modern matriarchy.So yeah, it was fascinating.
(38:25):
So then I attended yet another panelthat was literally called women and
the state and yeah, my thing. Yeah.Yeah. And not just my thing, but.
No,obviously it's top of mind for women.
That's why they probably had somany panels like that.
Because I think women areworried about that.
(38:46):
Like,are we going to lose all autonomy?
Are all of our rights going tobe rolled back?
I think we're worried. Yeah.And of course,
like part of the panel are peoplewho live in countries where women's
rights really have been taken away.So we had Joe Phoenix,
(39:09):
chaired by Marzia Babakarkhail,I don't know if I'm pronouncing
that right from Afghanistan.You had Maggy Moyo,
an African refugee living in the UK.You had Atena Daemi,
who's a Iranian refugee also.So Marzia Babakarkhail is an ex
(39:30):
judge.She grew up under the Taliban, then
experienced the Taliban crackdown.She had gone to law school pre
Taliban, became a judge and thenTaliban removed all women from
the profession.There was a attempt made on her
life and she was in the hospitalfor six months.
She fled Afghanistan and startedover her whole life in the UK at
(39:53):
the age of 42. God as a woman.You know, just a story of being
directly targeted for, you know,they wanted to remove her.
They wanted her out of existence.Educated women like you.
There's no room for you here.They wanted to erase her. Yes.
And make sure she doesn'tinfluence any of the other women.
(40:15):
Their women like her being inthe judgeship was like,
you know, couldn't have it.And then Maggie Moyo was an
African refugee.She runs an organization called
Right to Remain.She talked about the loss of
rights that women refugees have,even when they land in a Western
(40:39):
country, and how,subject to the British state,
they become just as refugees.And I think a lot of immigrants and
refugee women can attest to that.So it transfers in a way it transfers
because they leave who they werebehind in their country of origin,
(41:04):
and now they're under the controlof the state of the new country.
In the UK. Yeah.And so they're subject to all kinds
of government agencies and rulesand regulations, and their every
movement is tracked and monitoredand controlled and. And racism too.
(41:25):
Really if you think about.Heavy duty racism. Yeah, yeah.
And then at a time,she was imprisoned during the woman's
life freedom uprising in Iran.She was a feminist activist there and
fled eventually when she was, youknow, led out of prison for moments.
(41:47):
She fled on foot through themountains and sought asylum in
Canada.She talked about that journey,
also from Iran.The crackdown in Iran of the kind
of descending oppression thatwomen in Iran have experienced
in the last few decades.I don't think we have any idea what
(42:10):
some of these women go through.
The next panel I went to was thesurrogacy panel.
FiLiA stance against surrogacy andradical feminism certainly does.
(42:31):
Officially, it's viewed as justanother way to exploit women.
There's no way to do itethically or safely or humanely
or well or anything.It's just this should be abolished,
just like prostitution should be,right?
It's monetizing women's bodies.Hey, man. Exactly. Yeah.
So Julie McGee, who's a Scottishfeminist. Chaired that.
(42:56):
And she did a great job.She interviewed a French activist,
Marie Joseph David.And then they had three women,
women who have experienced surrogacy.One was a Christian surrogacy
story who agreed to do a surrogacyin the Christian context.
(43:17):
But she was very, very heavilydeceived and was put in one horrific
situation after the other throughthese really serious deceptions.
The second woman was a Britishaltruistic surrogate,
as they called themselves, which isone where payment is not involved.
(43:40):
But you create a child forfamily member or close friend.
So this woman agreed to be asurrogate for her cousin.
It turned into a massive situationof coercion and control.
And part of her agreement withthe intended parents promised
(44:01):
that she was going to be part ofthe child's life.
They reneged on that the momentthe baby was out of her belly,
and she hasn't seen the child since.An energetic and soul connection of
growing that baby inside your body asa woman, and then just not having any
(44:22):
connection to that baby afterwards.She's still the mother,
and as far as I'm concerned.Yeah, that's traumatizing for
the baby. It's traumatizing.And the idea and we can do a
whole again like separateepisode on surrogacy, but, like.
I think we need to.Yeah, there's an exchange of cells
that happens between the baby andthe mother Are that not just.
(44:47):
You're not just giving yourselvesor building this human,
but that human is also feedingback their cells into your system,
and that those cells from thosechildren stay in, in your body
for years and years and years.So that was the British surrogate.
And then the French surrogate agreedto have a baby for a gay couple.
(45:11):
So it was her egg and one of themen's sperm that made this baby.
And she had been promisedcontact and involvement,
and then they reneged on that.And then one of the fathers died.
And so this single father that wasleft neglected the child, but yet
(45:33):
didn't allow visitation for her.And people may be listening
today thinking, oh,that's a nice thing to do.
A woman to help a gay couplethat can't obviously conceive a
baby on their own or the cousin.What a generous gift to give.
Maybe, you know, infertilecouple a way to have a baby.
(45:54):
It can, on the outside,seem like it's a nice thing to do.
But these are the stories that you'retelling me that we don't hear about
the realities where it's like, no,I pay for that, and that belongs to
me, and you need to answer to me.We don't hear about that in
mainstream media.We only hear the good,
(46:16):
generous women that are doing this.And aside from the psychological,
emotional battles that happen andthe custodial battles that happen,
there's also health risks andhealth hazards and death and
disasters that are common in theindustry of surrogacy.
Yeah, it's dangerous to have a baby.We talked about that in our
(46:38):
babies episode.But the risks for surrogate
mothers are three times as highas a regular pregnancy.
Probably even, especially whenthey're implanting an egg.
That's not your egg.It's a foreign body. Exactly.
Lots of issues around that totalk about.
But the panel was essentiallyhearing these women's stories,
(47:02):
these people who had actuallyexperienced surrogacy and had turned
into activists against, as a result,just being radicalized through
the experience of being used andabused and denied their rights
through agreeing to surrogacy.Yeah. Must have been emotional.
It was emotional.A lot of tears on this panel.
(47:26):
A lot of pain.
And then the final lighthearted panelof the day was the homicide panel.
Oh, lovely.Whatever you're doing in the next
(47:48):
three days, I hope you will enjoy.It's not, you know,
just about the serious stuff.We know how to party, don't we?
Yeah, yeah.See you on the dance floor on
Saturday night. Because.So when Azula said, go out there and
have fun these next three days, she.She wasn't talking about the panels
(48:08):
you were going to in the sessions.She definitely was not talking
about any of the panels I attended.Now I'm a little bit drawn to,
like, more serious subject matter.You know,
I have to say there were, like,more not quite so serious panels.
I just happened to end up at thedark ones.
I don't know how you can have aradical feminist conference and
(48:31):
have lighthearted fun sessions.These are heavy matters.
They're important issues.And, you know, these are women
who come to speak at this,are all engaged year round in
these very serious matters,and they have things to tell us.
That's a good point. There all.And that's what I love about failure,
(48:52):
is that all of their speakersthat they bring in, you know,
this is their life's work formost of them. Absolutely.
They're living this day in, day out,all year long for many years,
fighting the good fight thathalf the time, all of us,
we don't hear about them.A lot of these women are on the
(49:12):
front lines for sure.And this one certainly was the
Femicide Panel.So this was chaired by Karen
Ingala Smith. Oh yeah.And Clarrie O'Callaghan,
who are partners at Femicide Census.Karen and Goldsmith started an
organisation called CountingDead Women UK. Yes.
(49:33):
In the absence of any data onwomen killed, right?
Was never being collected.Crazy. In this day and age.
It wouldn't even be that hard forpolice to gather that information and
create that information and data.Yeah.
So she started that organization,and then she started from that.
(49:56):
She started a femicide censuswith Clarrie O'Callaghan.
What they said very pointedly,Clarire kind of did a
presentation at the start.And she said as many women as
were attending FiLiA this year,which nearly 3000 was as many
women that had been killed bymen since 2009, in the UK.
(50:20):
Like look around the room thatwas giving you a chill.
So you see this women that you haveencountered all day, and you think
about a building full of 3000 women,and that's the number that have
been killed by men since 2009,in the UK. That's so shocking?
It's a small country.I mean, we get big numbers here in
the US, but we're a big country.Yes, and we have guns in England.
(50:44):
They don't. That's right.Then we also had Cherry Smiley, who's
an indigenous woman from Canada,and Ninotchka Rosca, who's a veteran
feminist from the Philippines,and Sharon Holland, the woman from
the UK whose daughter committedsuicide because of domestic abuse.
And so, between all of the panelists,I think they sort of painted
(51:10):
this picture of femicide fromvery different viewpoints. Yeah.
Cherry Smiley talked aboutmissing and murdered women,
indigenous women in Canada andthe causes of femicide in Canada.
Ninotchka Rosca talked about howthe Filipino state kind of uses Is
(51:33):
the public murder of women as ameans to terrorize the population.
In what way?In the regime of Duterte, who's
actually now imprisoned in The Hagueon trial for crimes against humanity.
Rodrigo Duterte was doing somethingthat is kind of what the Trump
(51:57):
administration is now trying to do,which is to clean up the streets.
It's a war against drugs,essentially,
but it turned into just state terroragainst the general population.
A lot of random violence againstcivilians and a general
population in the Philippines,and in particular against women.
(52:21):
They killed women in very grislymanners and in very public manner,
displaying the corpse kind of inpublic, really, just to strike fear
and terror in people in general.To comply into compliance. Yeah.
And hello, this is a wake up call.This is what we're going through
(52:43):
here. Exactly that.You and I both have talked about
how upsetting it is to see theseIce raids and what they're doing,
and this excuse to throw womenon the ground with a knee to
their neck and on their chest,multiple men, weapons drawn.
And handcuff her and take her whatshe's like, not even fighting back.
(53:07):
We're seeing it more and more onour social media,
just like you described ice.These like men in military tactical
gear going after small unarmed womenof all sorts, women and children,
by the way, and this kind ofterror that Ninotchka talked about
(53:29):
in the Philippines is feelingmore and more familiar, and.
You almost get numb to it becauseyou're seeing it every day. Yeah.
As more and more people post, it'slowering our shock factor about it.
I know there was one a couple ofweeks ago with a childcare worker.
Yeah,dragged out the childcare facility.
(53:52):
In front of like, infants. Yeah.And she's she's not violent criminal.
If you attack women in public,if you brutalize women in public,
you're going to strike fear inthe hearts of everyone.
You're going to have a fearful,obedient populace because it is
effective in that way to use terror.And, you know,
(54:15):
if there's any justice in the world,this whole story will end up exactly
where Duterte is at the moment,which is the International
Criminal Court in The Hague. Yeah.Attacking innocent women and
children.
(54:38):
So that wrapped up day two.Yes, and I. Skipped the party.
There was an. All. Oh, the big disco.The disco. I know, yeah.
It was a all women's dance partyat the end of day two.
And when I heard what happened,I couldn't have been happier to
have skipped that. Tell me.I don't want to go too deep into
(55:01):
it because I wasn't there.I actually didn't see it.
So everything I'm talking aboutis just like, allegedly.
But what I heard was that peoplewere being provocative with their
political kind of demonstrations,and there were drinks thrown.
There were kerfuffle was therewere security called.
(55:22):
There were people getting thrown outof the party. It wasn't a good time.
It doesn't sound like it.I mean, for goodness sake.
This is all women.We were just talking about how nice
it is to be safe in that space.You don't want to feel guarded.
I don't understand why theybrought it there into.
Especially at the party.But feel your overall, like,
(55:44):
keep the politics out of it.We're here for a common goal.
Yes. Yes, certainly.But I also think women are divided.
Women are going to be divided.We're going to come from
different viewpoints.We're not going to all agree on
stuff.We are sharply divided in a lot of
different ways, and I think we'regoing to have to learn to dialogue in
(56:09):
spite of those divisions, certainlynot get into bar brawls at least.
Do you think the people that wereinvolved in this were trying to
sabotage the event in some way?No, honestly.
It's just like maybe too many drinksand things got out of hand. Hang.
That was my impression that, like,people got overly aggressive, got
(56:30):
into each other's faces and. Yeah.And that's a shame,
because I know even though youand I haven't gone to the disco.
Actually, our younger listenersare probably like a disco.
Why are you calling it a disco?But they do call it that.
I just want to say, that's not us.We're not that old.
Well, we are, but.But that that's such a highlight of
(56:53):
FiLiA that it is a kind of joyful,like, free spirit.
Let it all go and enjoy thesisterhood.
That's just a shame, really,to hear. Yeah, it was a shame.
And you could also on day three whenwe arrived, you could definitely
sense and hear the tea being spilledall over in all the halls, you know,
(57:16):
people gossiping and taking sides andetc. so that wasn't amazing either.
Not a big thing I think is kindof a blip on the radar.
But, you know, some people in theaftermath of FiLiA's, you know,
there were all kinds of articlesbeing written about FiLiA should
(57:37):
get shut down. They have no shame.No. That's ridiculous.
Like how short sighted? Yes.For some differences of opinion.
You know, this event that's soincredibly important. Yeah.
And served so many women and so manyvoices. No, you should be shut down.
(57:58):
Whoever's saying that,it should be shut down.
You should be shut down. Yeah.I just think to treat it as this kind
of like a trivial event that doesn'thave any more meaning than that,
I think, is just, like,completely misplaced.
This is a crucial gathering. Yeah.And also, the ability to gather
(58:21):
as women is crucial.Even with those conflicts that
happened, and maybe some naivete onthe part of FiLiA about like who was
coming and what they were saying, andmaybe FiLiA hadn't done due diligence
in terms of like vetting who wascoming and what their opinions were.
But but even so,even with this tension, like,
(58:45):
it's not clear exactly where FiLiAthemselves are landing in this,
but I think they were definitelynaive, not considering that this
clash might happen.Well, they know now,
and I'm sure that will shape thingsin some way going forward. Yes.
(59:05):
Just upsetting you travel allthis way.
You're looking forward to thisevent for a long time.
The organizers, I mean,they've been working on this huge
amount of organizers for two years.And so for something like that
to just leave a little bit of abad taste in your mouth.
That's unfortunate.
(59:39):
So day three was kind of like awind down sort of day.
And I attended a panel that wasanother panel, kind of like the
state as a perpetrator ofviolence against women.
So a little bit the same themewith some other speakers.
There was Clarice Saadi fromMATRIA in Brazil. Yes.
(01:00:02):
She had an interesting story totell about.
Women in Brazil are really,at the moment attacked both from
the left and from the right.So from the right you have the
conservative far right.Part of the powers that be, part
of the government that's crackingdown on abortion and divorce and
birth control and everything else,controlling women in that way.
(01:00:26):
And then you have the left.Who's coming after women over
gender ideology.Brazilian institutions have become
very captured by gender ideology,and feminists who express
opposition to gender ideology andwho won't acknowledge trans women
(01:00:47):
or women and trans men or men,or will fight for women's sex based
rights as opposed to gender ideology,are viciously attacked.
In fact, there are women in Brazilwho have been charged with hate
crimes and who have been imprisoned.There are Brazilian women who
(01:01:09):
have escaped the country and havesought amnesty in Western countries
because they fear for their livesand their rights in Brazil. So.
So she talked about that,this woman Frohar Poya who works
with European Network of Migrantwomen from Afghanistan.
(01:01:32):
So she talked about that more onstate violence.
You must have come back to theUS like listen to all this like
we're in trouble.I'm seeing signs of things that
they were talking about in theirnative countries. It was a lot.
It was a lot to take in a lot ofemotions.
(01:01:53):
High emotion, a lot of energy,a lot of upset, but also elation.
And, you know, it was just like avery intense experience overall.
Sounds. Yeah.I mean, you've been so you know,
what it can feel like in theaftermath you just spent.
But when I landed, I think mytakeaway was Is that feminism.
(01:02:18):
As a movement, have been dormantor sleep for like years and years,
and that we as feminists in the West,certainly, or what I grew up with,
we grew up with, were just likemeekly asking for so little and
being completely co-opted by ourcultures into believing in all this
(01:02:45):
empowerment girl power bullshit.And we've kind of like, bought
all of that. Like, porn is cool.Prostitution and sex workers work
like all of the things that havehave turned feminism into something
unrecognizable to me. Yeah.And you go to a gathering like this,
(01:03:07):
and you get a full scope of whatwomen are experiencing And up against
in countries around the world.Like you get a full 360 view and
you understand that if we are tolike change this at all for
women around the world,the feminism that we call feminism
(01:03:31):
today is not going to do the job. No.I remember exactly what you're
saying.Like the vastness of what women
face around the world after goingto FiLiA, I had a much bigger
picture and it was overwhelming.It was like, what hope do we have?
(01:03:53):
Honestly, what the heck do we have?Yeah, we can fight our little
tiny piece of the fight,and they're doing their little piece
of the fight. But it's a mammoth.Herculean task to like,
turn the tide, you know,turn the tide for for women.
And I think gathering like FiLiAis one way to coalesce around
(01:04:24):
these issues and to gather and getstrength from these communities.
Learn about what other women aredoing.
Have face to face conversationsaround meals, and take in what
women are doing around the world,what they're up against and how
(01:04:47):
they're fighting it.We can at times feel like we're
all in our parts of the world,and we're safe for now.
You know, for now,we're okay for now.
And then we can look to otherplaces and we can literally see
and hear from women who,in countries where they were at
(01:05:07):
some point, okay, for now, andthey're not okay any longer at all.
I wonder, actually, if any of thosewomen from those countries that
saw the the steep decline in theirrights and autonomy and freedom,
whether they look at the US,let's say, or the UK and they say,
(01:05:28):
oh, this is what we it's how itstarted with us. Exactly.
How do we push back in the mosteffective way?
How do we mount an effectiveresistance to the sort of coercive
control creep that's happening?Yeah, we need more women in power.
Yes, we need more women leadersat every level. Yeah.
(01:05:52):
And we need more fearless.We do. We do.
Even so, even with all theconflicts and everything else,
we need more failures.Even if it was a difficult gathering,
it was it was not a warm hug.It was more like chaotic and,
you know, a lot of tension andfriction and didn't leave every day
with like this good warm feeling.But even so, even so, I came away
(01:06:17):
feeling like this is crucial.Yeah, it sounds like it.
We have to prioritize thatconnectedness.
As soon as we all become isolated,then that's an alarm bell.
We have to stay connected.As women, we've never been more
connected, but who knows whatthe heck we're going into? Yeah.
(01:06:41):
Where there's restrictions orinternet or whatever.
We don't know. We don't know.We know some countries have that
where they really are isolated.And I remember hearing on a panel in
Cardiff about a woman from Iran,I think she was talking about just
the only thing she had was a radio,and that was the only way she could
(01:07:02):
hear anything connected to otherwomen or feminists was through radio
and trying to get into nationalradio. So yeah, it is critical.
The conference itself is critical andI can only see it getting larger.
Or just maybe they need more of them.I also think FiLiA is determined,
(01:07:26):
you know, in the aftermath.They've written several newsletters
and kind of messages to attendanceand, and about what their, you know,
where they're going from here.And I think they are absolutely
committed to learning from everythingthat happened and to do better
in the future. I'm inspired.And also I feel a little heavy
after the conversation, which Iremember feeling coming away from
(01:07:51):
FiLiA to just again about the thevastness of the problem that we're
facing and try to remain hopeful.Yeah, the women will come out
okay from all of this?Next, it's in Blackpool. Blackpool?
Not exactly where I want to go, butokay. Why did they pick Blackpool?
(01:08:15):
They pick Blackpool.Because Blackpool is a very
depressed area. Sure is.And you know when FiLiA comes to
town, it uplifts and they pumpmoney into the economy.
And they give a lot of peoplethings to do.
And they also shed light oneverything that is happening.
(01:08:39):
Whatever the issues,the problems are because we know
that when a place is depressed,guess who suffers the most?
Women? Okay, that makes sense.Then they want to turn their
attention to Blackpool, and I'm sureit'll be a much smaller affair.
Well, I look forward to gettinga stick of rock at Blackpool.
(01:09:01):
Did you see the sticks of rockin Brighton?
No, it's a long piece of candyand it has the name in it,
and it's traditional.You would go on holiday in England
by the seaside and get a stick,a rock. Oh. That's the. Cutest.
Thing in the world.So we'll go to Blackpool and we'll
take a picture with that sticksof Blackpool rock. Love that.
(01:09:23):
Okay, see you next time.See you next time.
The thing that is reallyimportant about women's
liberation is collective action.No single woman would be where
they are today if it wasn't forthe women's liberation movement.
(01:09:47):
Hi. Hi. Thank you for listening.To chat in the comments.
We would love to hear from youabout anything we talked about
on this episode. Ode.You can reach us via our social
media or on our website,Chat In The Commons dot com.
(01:10:09):
You can also find links to allthe resources mentioned in this
episode in the show notes.If you like what we're doing here,
please share with all of yourfriends.
And the best way to support our workis to follow us on your podcast app.
Chat In The Commons is producedby me,
Natalie Blundell and Elle Kamihira.Audio Engineering by Jason
(01:10:32):
Sheesley at Abridged Audio.Artwork by Reda Tomingas.
Music by Midnight Door.Theme song by Moushumi.
You got no conscience.So I'll do it again. Again.
(01:10:55):
I'll do it again and again and again.
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