May 22, 2025 • 51 mins
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#40 - Pacing a TTRPG game can be tricky. Guy Milner, From The Burn After Running RPG Blog, and a regular host of the Unconventional GMs podcast gave me some great tips about how to keep the pace and run fantastic one-shot games. In our conversation Guy shares: Why one shot RPGs sessions are just as valid as long campaigns. His SWELL structure gives players the full emotional arc for their characters during one and done games. He’s also going to give you a TON of other Tabletop games you should go out and play.
Connect with Guy Milner:
- Guy on Bluesky 💙 @burnafterrunning.bsky.social
- 🏃🏼 Burn After Running Blog (Guy’s Blog) - https://burnafterrunningrpg.com/
- The Unconventional GMs - http://www.youtube.com/@unconventionalgms
Episodes Mentioned:
- 016: Keep Your Eye on the Ball – How to Play to Your Strengths During a Tabletop Roleplaying Game, With Robin D. Laws - https://claimtogamepodcast.com/episode/016-keep-your-eye-on-the-ball-how-to-play-to-your-strengths-during-a-tabletop-roleplaying-game-with-robin-d-laws
- 034: Which Tabletop RPG is a Good Fit for Your Gaming Group? - With Craig Shipman - https://claimtogamepodcast.com/episode/034goodfitgamecraigshipman
- 13th Age in Glorantha : One Shot | The Beard of Lhankor Mhy | Actual Play - Unconventional GMs Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj_02dlUVDI&list=PLTLQlkAda9QaW3wGSHjEmrxAMfV0D7Vnu&index=38
- Cold City : One Shot | Second Edition | Playtest | Actual Play - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWqsXDu4IIU&list=PLTLQlkAda9QaW3wGSHjEmrxAMfV0D7Vnu&index=4
- Slugblaster : One Shot | Megamallrats | Actual Play - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR2q6gLfx0Y
Games Mentioned During the Episode:
- 13th Age Glorantha - https://claimtogamepodcast.com/glorantha
- Agon (PDF) - https://claimtogamepodcast.com/agon
- Ironsworn (Multiple Formats) - https://claimtogamepodcast.com/ironsworn
- Apocalypse World 2E (PDF) - https://claimtogamepodcast.com/apocalypse
- Ironsworn: Starforged (PDF) - https://claimtogamepodcast.com/starforged
- Vaesen - Nordic Horror Roleplaying (PDF) -
(00:02):
it's about investing in your character straight away.
>> Clint Scheirer (00:05):
It doesn't become real until your characters make it real.
>> Speaker A (00:07):
Driving towards not just action
but also role playing investment,
emotional investment with the characters, play
with the other players and so on. But just play
hard.
>> Clint Scheirer (00:19):
Pacing a tabletop RPG game can be tricky. Like
real tricky. Guy Milner, who writes the Burn After
Running RPG blog and is also one of the regular hosts of the
unconventional GM's podcast. he gave me
some real good tips about how to run
fantastic one shot games and
continue to keep the pace to keep my players interested. One
(00:39):
shot games are just as valid as
any other long form campaigns that you might
play. the typical D20 & D playing once a
week, every week, forever and ever. one shot
games are a valid form of play.
Guy also talks about his structure,
his swell, I think he calls it swell,
(00:59):
the emotional arc that he, he allows players
and helps players go through in the short amount of time that
they get to play a game. You stick around and you watch this
episode. Guy isnna give you suggestions for
so many games,
billions with a B that you can
run, that you can play and that you're probably going toa want to go out and
buy. So it's time for you to make that claim to
(01:21):
game.
(01:52):
Hey, welcome Guy. Glad to have you here on the Claim to Game
Podcast. it was so much fun trying to get
you onto this podcast at a different
time in the time zone of the world. You
being over at the uk, me being over here in
Milwaukee. Thanks for joining me today. I am so pumped m
for what you have to share.
>> Speaker A (02:10):
Yeah, it's a pleasure, it's a pleasure. I mean the times zone,
it shouldn't be that difficult. people listen'be thinking o they
must have had loads of trouble now literally it's just we got the time
zones wrong.
>> Clint Scheirer (02:20):
That was, it's, you know, it's,
it's, it's all good.
And you know the cool thing is we have plenty of time to talk
about your area of expertise. You
are, are in my opinion a
expert at one shot RPGs.
you play it, you have your blog Burn
After Running which is so cool. I had actually
(02:41):
stumbled onto your blog far before I knew who
you were. I love one shots too.
I feel like at this time of my life, being a
dad, being you know, trying to be a present
husband, it's good to schedule just one
game. One and done. And then when There is time to
do it again, for the next one shot instead of a long
(03:01):
running campaign. So you know, the one shot's really the
one shot's really. I identify with them.
But I want you to start out. You
mentioned to me before we started that you have a
theory that one shot RPG
sessions are vital. Just as vital as
any other form of play. Can you tell me a little bit
about that? Why do you think it's so vital?
>> Speaker A (03:22):
Yeah, I think, I think we've sort of ended up with
this weird paradigm of
play where we assume that the
default form is a so long running campaign
where you meet weekly, it's the same GM every time.
And in the D20 & D parlance you go from level one
to level 20. And
(03:43):
it's weird that that's become the expected way
because I don't even think that most campaigns go that
way. Like they fall down, they don't last that
long. and you're not going to get to play as many
games. I think that mean. I started running
one shots when I started going to game conventions and running and
playing one shots had some fantastic experiences and just
sor. Of rolled with it. I set up a one sh, ah, one shot
(04:05):
meetup in Leeds, England when I moved over
here back from Manchester and we got some
really good games and I started to think actually
sometimes there's two different things.
You have a long running campaign, you get to know your
characters, you get to really invest in them and
get there. But a one shot, you can have just as deep an
experience in a two to four hour session
(04:27):
as you can there. It's different. And ye.
You need both of them. But I just think there's just as much you
can get from one shots and I really think that people's
play and running games is improved.
Buy More One Shots.
>> Clint Scheirer (04:41):
Yeah, I would agree. I think my game mastering has
gotten better since I've moved to this other form
of play. But you have you have a
structure, you have a structure for how
you ensure that players can feel that full
emotional arc that you know, some people
played, you know, week after week, year after year and
they're able to kind of like old friends, you know, grow friendships.
(05:03):
They don't have that luxury when they're doing a one shot. So
how do you make that happen in a one shot game? Whether
it's a convention or just somebody running it at their table at
home with friends.
>> Speaker A (05:14):
So I think you need to It does
take a level of preparation a little bit higher than an
ongoing campaign because you don't have previous sessions to rely
on from that. And I think, ah, as the GM
or facilitator running the game, you do have to think a bit more
carefully about it. Obviously it's easier if it's with friends that you
know, but if you're going to a convention, which I'd recommend
(05:35):
to anyone, you don't even have to go to one. There's loads of online
conventions. You can go in and play one shot games there.
you need to really think carefully about certain aspects of the
game. The structure that I tend to have for
traditional style games, if you like trad games, if you're
running a game where it's a traditional, the GM plans it and you have
an adventure, the GMs got an idea of what's going on and players
(05:56):
go through it and play their characters. The
basic structure that I would have for that plot is I think I call
it the swell. So you need a really strong start
and you probably need to have planned out quite closely what that
first scene is going to be because you want to hit the ground
running. I always think in D20 &
D terms, you don't want to start in the tavern with the
old wizard giving you the quest, you want to start at the door of the
(06:18):
dungeon. Yeah. If you want to flashack to it, you can go
back to it and do it. You want a really strong start and you probably
want a really strong finish as well. Because you want to end with a bang. You want to do
that in the middle. It can be a bit more loosey goosey and
you can have just lots of options you can go through. And you can
also use that to pace it a little bit. Because the thing with one
shots is usually you're on a timetable. So you might
(06:39):
have three hours at a convention, you might have four hours at a convention,
you might have just two hours online. In Unconventional Gems, we've got a
sor of hard limit of two hours that we run to,
so you might not need to use all those bits in the middle.
You need to make that a little bit collapsible so you have a few options of where it
can go and the players can sort of drive play a little bit there, but
you try and so haul it back into a finale as well
(06:59):
from there.
>> Clint Scheirer (07:01):
So one of the things that you mentioned was having
a strong start and a strong
finish. I think of when I think of the term
strong start. That's, that's Mike Sha's
lazy Dungeon master style, which is he got
me into becoming a better GM by thinking of
that structure. can you give me an
example of a strong start that
(07:23):
you have used in a campaign recently
or a game that you, that you ran?
>> Speaker A (07:29):
Yeah. So it's going to be a cliche but I
think I stick with the sor of Robin Law's line that
CL is terrible in every art form apart from
roleplay where it's really, really good because you can hang on to
it. Very often it will be a fight.
And I have this idea that I talk about sometimes
that I did a thing. it was Twitter (X a
few years ago where I said at what point should you roll the first
(07:52):
dice in a one shot game? You know, you'at a convention, you've all
sat down. How far into the game should you roll that dice?
And everybody came back, said oh, 10 minutes, half
an hour was the longest. People saidint. I've sat
in one shot games at conventions and it's been an hour
before I've rolled initiative or did it. So it's that
thing if you need a quick setup, get the characters out. I'll give you an
(08:12):
example. a game I've run loads of times. 13th age
Glantha. I have a scenario beard of Lank on
my which I think is on the channel actually.
And literally the starting scene,
you're members of a clan, you're out on patrol. I don't do the
whole sort of Gloarantha backdrop,
16 pages of the world and stuff. All
you need to know, you're barbarian tribesmen, you're on
(08:34):
patrol, you see a duck, anthropomorphic duck
feature gloantha. Get there, you notice a feather fall. He's
hiding in a tree above you and he just,
just shushes you. And as you do that you hear a hunting
horn brew crashing beastman attack you and you
straight into the combat and you've got an engageing
npc. So you've got a question. What's going on with this duck that's
(08:54):
of the trees. Obviously he's your quest giver but you've got a rescue
group first and you're straight away getting into the sort
of meat and potatoes of the game. And there's not a
it's not the mission briefing thing. That's why you need to not start in
the tavern because you'll get before you know it you'll have
players going into their
sort of long term play where they can be saying things like
(09:15):
oh'just negotiate for a Bit more gold. It's a one shot. It
doesn't matter how much goldd they re can to give you. Like you've got to do
this quest otherwise we're going to go home now. Like we
can't play. So straight away, quick
introduction, go with a fight. It could be a fight, it could be a skill
challenge. I've done that a few times in games like Ironsworn Sworn
or similar, where you have a sort of extended task, everyone gets
(09:36):
to make a skill roll. You resolve it like that. Bit of peril at the
start, but yeah, combat is the absolute. If you
can't think of how to start it, start it like that, think, right, I'll start with a
fight. The characters are in danger straight away and
you can resolve it from that and you can teach the system then.
>> Clint Scheirer (09:50):
Do you do the same thing for the end of the game too?
for a fight, you know, you said a strong start at the beginning, a strong start
at the end. Would you still recommend the end battle,
the end game, the big bad evil guy, the end
boss.
>> Speaker A (10:02):
So it depends on your game, doesn't it? I think that you
want, you want something exciting, and
dangerous and you want at
least the sort of threat of jeopardy of this
might not work. And in a lot of traditional games
that is going to be a fight. In 13th age Clantha when I run
that, it is going to be a big fight at the end and it's
(10:22):
probably going to be more challenging than the first fight
and there's going toa be more things going around. It's going toa be things flying around and
stuff. There's a bit of terrain in the fight.
It could be a fight in other games where you've got more
flexibility in what an exciting scene could be. you can be a
bit more open with it. So for instance, I don't know if you've made
or played Agoon or the Paragon system
(10:42):
so that.
>> Clint Scheirer (10:43):
No. But I did see somebody post, I think it was Craig
Shipman from Tabletop Talk. He posted how great
the game was on Blue sky the other day. And he's like, this is great
game.
>> Speaker A (10:52):
So that has a conflict resolution system, where
you build towards a big battle at the end and that could be
a big fight or it could be a really tense
negotiation. I think when I'PLAYED it once we ended
up, it was facilitating and making sure a marriage
went well between two rival families on the
island. But it had that thing of like it was a bit
dangerous. We didn't know if it'work or not. Every player was
(11:14):
involved, every player was using their skills and there was a bit
of narration, rolepl play in it. So
something like that where everyone's involved, everyone's in a big group, they're all
helping to pull together for one thing. So whenever run. Starforged
Trek that has a Starforged Trek Adventures has a really good extended task
system, that you can use for like curing a disease
or negotiating a treaty with the Cllingons. And that's another
(11:35):
one where you can end with a really tense extended task where you're
trying to do it. What I would advise
against, which I've seen in some games
is that sort of trick solution where
you say right, you've solved the puzzle. And so that's
it Sol. and that always, that always falls a little bit
flat for me. You need the peril to be right until the
end.
>> Clint Scheirer (11:56):
Yeahah. I was thinking whenever you go
in to try to make a treaty with a Klingon, it we'll probably end in
a fight, right?
>> Speaker A (12:03):
Just use the combat system, it's fine.
>> Clint Scheirer (12:05):
Yeah, that's awesome.
this got me thinking, right so we're talking about when you're sitting down, you're
starting the game, you are ending the game, on
a high note. A note where the solution is the end of the
game. Also what about prep?
You know, I've run games one shots at
my house where I didn't wanna spend a whole lot of
minutiae in all this stuff.
(12:27):
So sometimes I would email things out, I would send
things out to friends like hey, make sure that you got this going.
Make sure that you, you know, I know in conventions it's usually pre
gens, pre made characters. What would
be your suggestion or advice for preparing your
players before they get to the table to help streamline the
experience?
>> Speaker A (12:46):
So I think it depends on the players that you've got. If it's
your own group and it's people that you know,
then by all means you could send out some stuff
beforehand. you could get. So obviously when we're
playing on the channel, people select their pre
gens. I send out a link to the preges beforehand. Me or Gaz will send out and
they'll pick it and it just means that they can get an idea of the
rules beforehand. And that is sort of an ideal
(13:08):
world for convention games.
My experience is that
expecting people to respond to that
is unlikely and it's just not worth it. And you might as well just
rock up to the table with your pre gens people that have booked to come
to a convention and play to your game they don't want to
do. They've not invested in doing any sort of preg game prep with
(13:28):
it like you are and you'll just
get frustrated yourself because it'd be that thing.
Three people have picked their pre gen and the other two haven't. It
ends up being a bit weird at the table. So for a convention game I'm
90% of the time I'm show up, hand
out the pre gens, teach the system. There's no
prior knowledge involved. The only exception that I do
(13:49):
make is if I'm running any games
like Powered by the Apocalypse where you might have a
selection of playbooks that players can pick from that might
change quite a lot what the focus of the game would be.
So if I'm running Apocalypse World, if one of the
players wants to play a hardholder which is the character that sort
of runs a community, if you've got a hard holder in play,
(14:09):
the whole session is going to be a little bit different and I'm going to
have to think about that in prep and I'm going to have to look at it
a bit differently if that's in play. So I'll get players
to just pick what they don't have to do. The character generation. Although
in PBTA it's really straightforward anyway. But just pick which one are
you going to be and then I can sort of craft it a little bit with that.
But it's not like you know, if I'm running D20 & D, it doesn't matter if I've got a
(14:30):
Druid and a M Monk or a Palin and arranger.
Like my scenario isnna be pretty much the same anyway.
>> Clint Scheirer (14:36):
Yeah. That leads me into my next thought which
is the challenges. Right. So some of the
challenges and I've heard Craig say this, you're
four agents of chaos that you're throwing into the
game and a one shot, you know, some
people might be like well it's okay, you will never play this, this character
again. This story's a one time deal. Like maybe there's a little bit
(14:56):
of like it's okay for it not to be perfect. but,
but what are the challenges and still making it a
good experience when somebody throws a curveball at
you. How do you deal with the shifts and the turns
from maybe the normal the
normal story. Robin was talking about when
I talked to him back on episode 16 he was saying, you know, there's a
(15:16):
ball that people are handing you when you're at a
convention or playing a game and you don't want to slam the ball
on the ground and say, no, I'm gonna go over to
the tavern and talk to the wizard. You know, there was a fight but I'd rather
go, you know, do the stereotypical talking to the wizard. No, you
pick up the ball and you run with it and
you play along with the story. how do you overcome
(15:37):
challenges, twists and turns that your players may
throw?
>> Speaker A (15:41):
So I think there's sort of two categories of that.
There's challenges that are twists and turns that are players being
inventive and buying into the premise and thinking,
oh, actually instead of just fighting the clickons, we're going
to go and negotiate with them. and that's great.
That's an inventive way to do it. That's, you know,
you support that and you try and have some options in your prep for it.
(16:01):
I think I've blogged before about, you know, if you're
going to do a structure for a one shot or a session,
it's sort of okay to have a straight line of linear
scenes. If each of those scenes could be resolved in
multiple different ways. Because that's not
linear, that's giving different options in each place that you go
to. So that's one category where I think you just have
to be open minded about prep and sor. Of be
(16:24):
prepared to run with it a bit. There is also the
other side of it which is players not engaging with the
premise. And it can be, I'll go to the tavern and do
this. It can be, oh, that wood looks dangerous. I'm
not going to go in there. I'm going to do this other thing as well.
And I tend to be quite. I think the way to deal with that
is to just deal with it outside of the game and be really
(16:45):
explicit about this is a one shot. What
you're going to do is go into this dangerous forest and look for the
wolf, the werewolf and
kill it or resolve the problem and take it back. So if
your character wants to go back into the town like they
can do, but you don't need to stay at this table because
the game's going to be happening over here and
(17:05):
sometimes you have to restate that because some players will
think that that's the trick for it,
but't try. Don't think you have to solve that in
game. I was in the game a couple of years ago. it was
a sort of science fiction, I think with Starforge
we'd found a derelict spaceship which was clearly
sort of what we had to get as dangerous. We had to go on board that. One of
(17:27):
the players with Adamant. Oh, well, you go on there, I'll stay on the ship.
And Germ's like, well, I mean you can do that, but
the game is going to take place on this derelic spaceship. So if you stay on the
ship, you're not going to be like able to do
anything. Said, oh well, no, I thought what to do and we had
to. Right. Time out. Actually, if you'ren toa do
that like you don't need to stay at this table, like go to the
(17:47):
bar or something. We're going toa play the game. The games here. You can't
wander off and just.
>> Clint Scheirer (17:52):
So it's okay to take a time out, make a
quick restatement of the, I
guess the norms. Right. It's kind of like meeting norms if you're thinking
about your, your 9 to 5 job. If you're 9 to fiver
or somebody who's at a meeting for their, for their actual job.
>> Speaker A (18:06):
Yeah. And I think, and I think don't, don't be afraid to say it because
sometimes, you know, the example I've given is maybe
it sound, it sounds like it's bad play or it
players not engaging or coming up to be disruptive. It
isn't always. Sometimes it's just a misunderstanding
and equally as a player I'll try
and be quite open and say, sorry, can I just check in?
(18:26):
Do we all need to go there or is there other stuff to do? You
know, if the adventure is taking place here, then we'll all go there.
I was going to go off and do something else, but if that's not where you want
us to be, let's go there. and just do that instead
of rolling with it and trying
to pull people back together. It's quite difficult to do it. There are games that
will let you do that. There are games that will let you be. Absolutely.
I'm prepping some hill folk to run this weekend, at
(18:49):
Seven Hills of convention that I run and literally I've got some
characters that are pointed at each other
and I've read the rules again and that's sort of my prep. I
don't really have a plot to bring them. They can do
whatever they want and I'll just have to roll with it. But any sort of
traditional game, even pbta, if, if I'm
prepping a Powered by the Apocalypse game, I'VE got a sort of
(19:09):
broad plot to hang on and I want the players
to hang themselves on that as well. If you see what I
mean.
>> Clint Scheirer (19:15):
Yeah. Was I was thinking of I don't know if it was in
the Lazy Dungeon Master but I remember it was like it
doesn't become real until your characters make it real.
>> Speaker A (19:24):
Yeah.
>> Clint Scheirer (19:24):
So sometimes you can have a bunch of plot points that you want to have
happen and then you as the GM can kind of slide
them in as they seem appropriate. That's helped me
in flexibility. good luck with Hillfolk.
That sounds like a fun sandbox.
>> Speaker A (19:38):
I had a moment of like oh, I've run this before. I checked and it
was like 2014 or something.
It was like when it first came out. Yeahah Inn have to
actually read this again. I ve played it.
>> Clint Scheirer (19:49):
Is Robin Laws playing in that game?
>> Speaker A (19:51):
He's not. No, it's not at kraken. It's at 7h that I've
played.
>> Clint Scheirer (19:55):
I was going to say is Robin playing in his own game? That would be
pretty, pretty boss move. Feel like that's a little
cheating. okay.
So there was another word that you
used in our communication back and forth that I
don't know if the common person and
I'm saying that is like the person who maybe is new to gaming
or somebody who is even gamed before. Because when
(20:17):
you look up this definition outside of tabletop
rolepl playing it means something else and
the, the term was vignette. So
what is a vignette in tabletop role playing game?
Tabletop role playing games. I have a official
definition from Google but I, I want you
to share like what is a vignette and why is it important?
>> Speaker A (20:37):
So you've got me question in own, my own use of the
word.
>> Clint Scheirer (20:40):
Now I'm sure it's correct.
>> Speaker A (20:42):
I mean there's lots of. It's on YouTube. Loads of me.
>> Clint Scheirer (20:45):
Google's listening right now. You'you're new. You're going to be the new
definition. I don't know.
>> Speaker A (20:48):
Yeah, language evolves, doesn't it? It's fine. That's it. So
what I'd say for vignette is a short self contained
scene that's almost like it could be a still
shot if you see what I mean. So my reference point,
I use it in two ways at the start and the end of sessions,
often in one shots. and I'll go into that now.
So my reference point for the start of sessions
is if you remember
(21:11):
old TV shows,
such as I'm going to give some references here like Robin of
Sherwood, Quantum Leap, even things
like Colombo and ironside, those old SOR of
80s 90s TV shows they would begin with. They'd
often been an establishing scene. And then as the credits,
like title credits rolled, they'd have loads of
(21:31):
shots of exciting stuff happening, which was
all, all recycled from the rest of that
season.
>> Clint Scheirer (21:37):
So I'm thinking of MacGyver
rightlyeah.
>> Speaker A (21:41):
And like literally a season of Quantum
Leap, every episode of it is in that title
sequence. The cool bits of every episode of it. Is't that title
seque? and so I sort of crafted this into
a one shot thing where at the start of the session you often,
you'll ask people to introduce their character
and it's a bit of a hard ask. They've just got a
character sheet in front of them and you often get
(22:03):
quite disappointing descriptions. So
some people will go all out for it and it gets to someone and say, oh
well I'm a fighter. you'll see I'm
wearing chainmail armor and I've got a shield
and a sword.
>> Clint Scheirer (22:16):
My AC is 14,
I have three attacks per round.
>> Speaker A (22:20):
And you'll also. And it's just like I don't
want that. So how I do it now is I say, right, you do a
vignette is the word I use for it. So you're going to describe
a really short scene of your character. We see them in
action as the credits roll. it's from
another adventure that you've done. Sometimes I'll do it as
it's from the previous adventure. Your adventurers, you've been working
(22:41):
together for ages. The last time on this show that we're
watching this is what you got up to. sometimes I'll say that,
sometimes I won't say that. And the players will just naturally
like the barbarian will describe his character like standing
atop a pile of bones and he rips an orc's head
off. And naturally it'll go to the Wizd and they'll say, oh,
and in the background I'm doing this. So it all happens at the
(23:01):
same time and it just gives you a nice little way
of not just describing what characters look like, but a
scene. And you can tell a lot more with it. And it's a
bit easier for players to do it at the start of the game.
What I do this is a little. Might be
cheating. I have a bit of a judge of the players that
around the table because we're going to go around the table and do it. And
after I've handed out the pre gens, I try and pick which
(23:24):
of my players. So who's going to get this straight away and
run with it and give a really good little vignette?
Not it has to be amazing, but who's going to really go for
it and get it and start with them? Then they'll set the
standard and then the people that go around'sort of follow that and get the
idea. And sometimes if you play, if there's someone that you know in the
group, you can. You can sort of set them up a bit and say, I'm going to start
(23:44):
with you. Andint you did a description thing that
we always do and then people can follow it. And so that's the start of the game.
At the end of the game, I tend to do it, I think one shot, you play these
characters for two or three hours and then. Then you lay
them down and you sort of don't see them again. So after the adventure, after
we've like, right, we've killed the dragon, everyone,
everyone's great. That's brilliant. We'll often do a short
(24:05):
scene again with each character. Little vignette
of what they look like after the adventure.
Sometimes I'll do it immediately afterwards. Right, you're back at the
village celebrating. As the camera pans round
this village that you saved, what do we see of each character? How are
they, how are they celebrating this? And what's lovely is players
will call back to scenes beforehand and say, oh, well, I'll go in
there. I'm going to go and see that. That dwarf barmaid that
(24:27):
we chated to before. And if I can see if I can chat to
her and you just get it, just gives it a bit more,
versatilitude, which is another word that.
>> Clint Scheirer (24:35):
I'm not sure I love that word.
>> Speaker A (24:37):
But it makes it feel like you're.
>> Clint Scheirer (24:38):
See the believability.
>> Speaker A (24:40):
Y.
>> Clint Scheirer (24:40):
No, you got it, you got it.
>> Speaker A (24:41):
You're seeing a snapshot of these lives. We don't see either
side of it, but we know there's another side of it. There were characters before,
there'd be characters afterwards.
>> Clint Scheirer (24:48):
That makes sense. Yeah. No, that's wonderful. I'm so glad somebody
else uses the word versitude. That's
great.
my next thought is, is there a
vignette that you remember? Either
one that you gave one that a player gave that like,
still sticks with you? Maybe there's many, but like, can you pick
one and share it?
>> Speaker A (25:09):
I think, yeah. So
I did. I get. It's. It's a bit of a
cheat because the one that stands out is from a game of Fiasco.
And Fiasco has a. O great game. But it has an
explicit sort of aftermath, doesn't it? That I probably
stole it from that actually. But it has aftermath where
you do have to do the characters afterwards. And there's a bit of mechanical thing to
it, I think. When
(25:32):
the first edition of Fiasco, came out, the
sort of gaming club that I was in, we ended up
sort of by accident playing Fiasco every week
with a different place at every week for about 15 or 16
weeks. So we got just
immersed into it and we played. There
used to be a playse set for First Edition where you
are immortal Cthulhu
(25:54):
cultists. and we played this. It
was that really tight three player game. And at some point
it ended up with one of the characters being like
was a vampire. They got staked and like
bricked in a wall in a cellar.
And it being Fiasco, this happened
with several of that character's seen still to go.
(26:15):
So they had to sort of somehow show how they're influencing the plot
as it did. And their aftermath. Their vignette was just. We
had a brick wall
dimly lit. This is like 100 years
later. And we're just see a brick being tapped
out of the wall O and then another
hand appeared and just pressed it back in.
No. Who's that other hand? We don't know. But it
(26:37):
was that thing of like. Yeah. It can just be something as
tight as that. It doesn't need to be. Even have your character in it.
>> Clint Scheirer (26:43):
Can bee end credits right there.
That's marvelous. Yeah, I love that. I love
Fiasco. I think, Jason Morningstar is somebody
who's active in the R RPG Reddit
community.
>> Speaker A (26:55):
U.
>> Clint Scheirer (26:55):
and it's just so cool when his name pops up. Yeah.
And he like chimes in very humbly like with
is some of his thoughts and whatever. So really appreciate
that guy.
>> Speaker A (27:05):
It's a really good game for. I think it's a really
good game to improve your play as well as a player or a
gm. Particularly as a player. just get a couple of games if you ask
it. I mean he'll focus is another one like that actually.
But by taking away some of the paraphernalia we
rely on, it really makes you think
about how your play works and
it means you can bring those skills into other games.
>> Clint Scheirer (27:27):
Yeah. The story, the scene, the movie making
the storytelling. Like I think that Only adds, adds
to the, the flavor.
All right, next question. What
techniques help players feel invested
in their characters quickly when they're never
played again after a few hours? Now you've already mentioned
the vignettes, right? Like giving them what happened before, what do
(27:49):
they look like? What's their action scene? you talked about,
you know, as they're, as they're sitting down at the
table explaining the rules but then setting the scene
of you know, what does this look like in the game
world? You know, what are some other tips?
What are some other ways that you think this could
happen?
>> Speaker A (28:06):
So a really good way to do it and something that you
can be tempted to miss out if you're playing
a one shot. but in some games I think it's
absolutely essential if you're going toa have any sor of
conflicting agendas or even sort of
PvP sort of slight things in here,
is to do something like Bonds. So Bonds
originally comes from Apocalypse World. Lots
(28:29):
of games have adopted it. So also I mean the freely
games have adopted it as well. So Vase and, and Mutant Year
zero which are pretty traditional games really in terms of
their thing. They will have bonds and you can make them up for
any game really. So it's almost like
you have some blanks in. So this character is someone that will
always look after me. This character. So
(28:49):
Blank Blank will always look after me. Blank is
reckless and in over his head. And you just go around
and get the players to pick another after they've introduced, after they've done their
film vignette, get each player to pick
two of the other characters to fill in, in those things,
in those statements and then you've got sor of
that instant role playing thing with it. Because when
(29:09):
you're playing characters for the first time some players will be quite
reluctant to actually rolepl play
with each other. They can be quite shy with
it. so that just gives them an instant hook.
So you know, you think the dwarf is reckless. So when
he suggests something you've got something to say and you can do
it. The other little trick, and this sounds It took me a while
to pick this up but it works really really well. If you
(29:32):
want investment in character comes from inhabiting character
and from talk like speaking in
character, having some discussion in it. Particularly in a game like
D20 & D or 13th age where a lot of what the
system's getting you to do is like
attack orcs with axes and things. So you need
that extra role playing thing. having one or
(29:52):
two non player characters that are with
the characters at the same time
that are a little bit controversial
will really help to get that because they can
just start a conversation and then
before they know what players will respond then another character can get
involved. It's a really good safety net to have. I
(30:12):
mean in the thirteenth age Florantha game this duck
adventurer insists on coming with them in a
really weird.
>> Clint Scheirer (30:18):
Sort of like they ant enteromorphic duck that
whispering.
>> Speaker A (30:21):
Well it's really. It's often the thing where like they're kind of oh it's really
dangerous. I'm definitely not going back there. And you
manipulate to the players, always persuade them to come with
them. and so they can play a big part in the
game by talking to lots of people or a really small part in
the game and just sit in the background and people forget they're there. And it just
depends on whether the players need that little
push to go into roleplay with that.
(30:44):
But having an NPC around with them. In
Dungeon Cor Classics I've even done it with just a couple of
highillings even though you know they really
flavourable heights are that halfling tailor that you bribe to
come along with you. He's absolutely useless to the
party in combat or in any sort of game thing
apart from I can put him in danger really easily to
make sure you keep taking risks. And he's really
(31:06):
talkative so he'll make you talk to each other.
and that sort of I
suppose it's Conversational lubricant. NPC
is what you need and that's a really good trick to get
there. I mean it also comes into how you
design your pre gens. talking about cliche, it's
also about. It's a lot easier for characters for players to get into
(31:26):
character if their characters are easy to understand.
So in a fantasy game I will have like
a haughty elf wizard. I will have a big
brutish barbarian who just wants to hit things.
Having some cliche in there and then some more interesting
things for players that want to stretch themselves a little
bit more is a good way to get it on there. Don't give
(31:47):
players. I think I've played. I don't know if you've ever played any like
free form laps or anything like that.
Fantastic. Another thing that will make you a better player but often
they're often one shots and you're given your
character and it's often like six pages of
text that you've got to read. And I'm into that. I'm
a fast reader and I volunteer to do it. But I'm always like, I'm
(32:07):
gonna forget something. I'mnna forget
something here. I don't know how I'm going toa play this character. Like so just give
them it. Really simple.
>> Clint Scheirer (32:15):
Yeah. So several thoughts came up. I
don't know if it's fate, the game
fate. They, they did an activity
which I actually stole for a, Pathfinder 2E
2e campaign that I wanted to run where it
connects the bonds amongst the player
characters. FIA asksco also does a really good job at
that. And they have cards where it's just like you have to have a bond with
(32:37):
the person either to your right or to your left.
And it does just add another level
of versatilitude because now these
characters aren't just disjointed random people. They all
somehow are connected. It's pretty neat.
I guess my question, and this is, this is a
selfish question. Cause you played a lot of one shots.
(32:57):
What's a one shot character that you
loved playing that you still remember playing
that? Like if somebody said, hey, pick one of the one
shot characters that you've played in your time and
bring them back to life and bring him to this next sess,
what, what would that character be?
>> Speaker A (33:15):
So, I mean I tend to.
There's the thing about playing one shot characters and there's probably another
podcast about playing one shots. there's always this thing about
there's not enough discussion about how to get the most as a
player from games. so I tend to
be sort of, you know, I'll often, if I'm at a
convention, I tend to pick the
simplest possible character that I
(33:37):
can play. just because if I'm running
games the rest of the time I just want to sit and like pile into
it and just be like that. I do remember.
I mean I have an awful lot of funness. It's very recently
that I play this character. but we had a one shot of
Cold City on the channel, which is
a, Cold War
(33:57):
Berlin, post war Berlin monster hunting game.
And you play characters from different factions and do it. And it
was. I still want to go back to
Brenda, my American nurse. It started
out, started out with her sort
of problem was she'd been infected by this mysterious.
There's all kinds of strange sort of technology going on
it. And in the very first scene I tried to
(34:19):
cure it and completely failed the Rolel and it ended up getting Much
worse. And then that rolled with it in the whole time. So
it's like, oh, Brenda, can you help me get this door off? And I used
my infected arm and like wrenched it off. And everyone's like, ah, are you
sure? You're so wanting to do good, but
clearly there's lots going on. It's just that thing of lot. I'd
love to go back and do a few more sessions of what's
actually going to happen to Brenda.
>> Clint Scheirer (34:41):
Do you have an American accent?
>> Speaker A (34:44):
I did not have an American accent. I mean one of my one shot
like adviceors is
don't do meri. Don't do accents. Like if
your players must, they can do them. But
I just find it, it's a minefield.
I, I'm playing a coup.
>> Clint Scheirer (35:00):
It's distracting.
>> Speaker A (35:00):
Well, in a couple of weeks I'm going to, you know, I'm going to Germany to playing in a
really an international convention with people.
So there's no chance it would
be. Nobody needs to try and interpret what
my dreadful, French accent is from
that.
>> Clint Scheirer (35:15):
That's phenomenal.
Can running one shots improve a GM's ability to run long
term campaigns to improve their storytelling? I
think this is a loaded question. we
obviously believe yes, but, but
why, like why. Why do you feel
that doing these One shots can help in a
campaign that's happening. Happening more than once?
>> Speaker A (35:37):
So I blogged about
this a while ago actually because I had a moment after.
Well it actually during COVID and Lockdown where I started
previously I've been pretty much all One Shots and I'd started running
a lot of online games then because I.
There wasn't a lot else for us to do was there when you
could leave the house and you were locked down. and a lot of it was
(35:57):
about a lot of my approach to running
campaigns is very similar to One Shots. It's just a bunch
of episodes. One Shots will make you really good at
pace. They'll make you really good at telling a tight
story. I personally much
prefer a campaign where each session
is a little bit of a bundled up
episode. So it's got a structure
(36:20):
within it and it ends with something good and it starts with something
big. I'm thinking of Sly Flourish again. Mike Sha has that, doesn't
he? That's how you do.
>> Clint Scheirer (36:27):
He's just integrated the way that I do gmg.
>> Speaker A (36:29):
So.
>> Clint Scheirer (36:29):
Yeah, yeah, ye.
>> Speaker A (36:30):
Yeah. And actually when I've run, I mean
shout out to Sly Flourish for lazy Dungeon Master is
absolutely the way that I prep ongoing campaigns.
It is just. I don't know what I'd do without
it really from there. So things like making each thing
episodic in an ongoing campaign. I would also
say one thing that can tweak it, that can really, really
(36:50):
make your campaignsing is just give each episode
a title. When you're doing your prep for next week, think right,
what's this called? Because what are we doing? Even if it's like
the Elf Barrow or whatever, it just
give makes it everything fit together
in one little thing and you can do it. So one shot'make
you really good at pacing. I think that running
lots of different games with lots of different people is
(37:12):
good. It gets you a
broader appreciation for the hobby and it gives you a different
experience. I think that playing one shots is really good as
well. I try and keep it as
close to 50, 50 as I can in terms of GMing and
playing sessions. And I think I really
feel for people who are like forever GMs who are having
(37:33):
to run for their groups again and again. It's that
paradigm. I think if you expected to do it all the time
because you become a better GM by playing
in other sessions, by playing with good
gems, but also by playing in with
gems where it doesn't sit. I'm not going to say worst gems,
but I've played in some one shots where it
(37:53):
hasn't really been for me and I've had three hours and it's
been quite fine. I can accept that other
people have had a lot of fun and the GMs worked really hard. Wasn't
really for me the way that that worked. But I've still got loads of
tips from it because I can think, well, why didn't that work? What was
it that happened? And actually there's a bit of
that that I do that maybe I shouldn't do if that's not what I like.
(38:13):
So. And I've had situations, several times where
I've played in one shot of systems where
I've walked away and thought, it's okay, it wasn't amazing. But I
really want to run that game myself because I can
see how I would twist it and do it. So I think
just lots of play is good. And having one
shots under your belt means that you get more play
(38:34):
and more diverse play.
>> Clint Scheirer (38:36):
Yeah. Re you're doing iterations of your craft.
Yeah, that's pretty awesome.
do you run any long term or is it all one shot
nowadays?
>> Speaker A (38:44):
So I do. I've just
got a few things I'VE not got one at the moment.
I tend to, I mean I tend to with long
term campaigns as well. A campaign for me
is sort of four to 12 sessions. and if it's going to go
longer than that, stop, take a break, play something
else and come back to it. And it just keeps it fresh and makes it
(39:05):
manageable. eight sessions is about the ideal I think
for a good sort of arc of what it is.
I've actually played in some more more recently. but yeah
I do. I'mra. I've got a short run of Slug Blaster that
I'm running in a few weeks, through Open Hearth which
is a really good community to get involved in if you want to
play one shots or long form games. and yeah,
(39:25):
I've also got so of the middle ground of it. I don't know if this
is something you've heard of Clint.Scheirer@claimtogamepodcast.com, but
we've got something called Long Con in the uk
where it's a convention. It's at the same
place as a lot of our other conventions are. Ah, but the idea is
you sign up and you just play a game or weekend.
So while it's a one shot, it's a whole campaign that you
fit in sort of three sessions on Saturday, two sessions
(39:48):
on Sunday. You can get a massive thing we did a few
years ago we did, I played in the Dracula Dossier,
know Ken Height's sort of Dracula masterpiece of
that I should say Ken Height and goy around a hand hand. He wrote a lot
of it as well, didn't he? Oh yeah.
>> Clint Scheirer (40:01):
There's a team of people, Pellegran Press
duo.
>> Speaker A (40:05):
Yeah, yeah, stuff. So stuff like that is a really
tight way to do it. So it's a weekend away but you'll get
a whole campaign in it from there.
>> Clint Scheirer (40:12):
This is the question that I ask everybody on my
channel and I think it's
tough because sometimes I've given people advanced warning
of this question and other times I have not and
I put them on the spot and they're like trying to count on their fingers
exactly how many words but, but I, I
love, I love this. It comes from Eric Newsom. he used
(40:33):
to be an NPR news writer. He does a lot
of pop culture fiction. Not fiction but I guess
nonfiction writing. I got his newsletter actually just today in
my inbox. So he's still active, still does things, but
he always challenges any team that he's on
to create a 10 word phrase
that really with the economy of words,
no more, no less. You can't go nine, you can't go
(40:55):
11. What is the core message that
you want people to carry with you when it comes to
pacing? The art of getting
players emotionally connected in a one shot game or
I guess any campaign, if we're treating every
session as a one shot, what is your 10 word
phrase that everybody has to remember?
>> Speaker A (41:16):
So I approach this a bit differently which I guess is what you'd
expect from someone who is running lots
of hour and a half to two hour one
shots. So I went even further
with economy because I wrote a 10 word phrase and then I cut it down and said,
well, what's the minimum thing? I've got two
word phrase actually, which I'm going to offer you, which
(41:36):
I think is better than the ten word phrase I had before. Those
other eight words were extraneous and could be cut out. I
think the thing that I would say for one shot play and for
all the kind of you, the play culture that we do is just
play hard. It's about driving pace, it's
about investing in your character straight away. It's
about driving towards
not just action but also role playing
(41:58):
investment, emotional investment with the characters,
play with the other players and so on. But just
play hard.
>> Clint Scheirer (42:05):
Yeah, I love that you said get invested.
Yeah, there's nothing u, I know
that Robin, Robin D Laws in his book about
the laws of good game mastering talks about the
casual player that just wants to hang out and
have fun. Nothing wrong with that. That's a,
that's a player type. That's hard for me because I really
(42:25):
love it when other people are getting invested in the story
and what's going on.
Is there anything you feel like we're missing? Is there
anything in your mind that you, you know, maybe has come up since we've
talked or come up, or that you've been wanting to
say and you just haven't had a platform or people
to listen.
>> Speaker A (42:42):
I think the main thing is just that thing. I sort
of. My mantra is that I think one shot
should be afforded just as much
respect and attention and it should be,
it's just as much a valid form of play as a long
form campaign. And actually it would be
good if our games and our systems
(43:03):
supported that a bit better. So I'll give you some
examples why games are published
now, how you can have games. I've got a few in
mind that I won't mention that are really exciting
games that have been brought out, they've gone to Kickstarter,
they've been published. There's character creation
rules, there's all the rules for the setting in
there. There aren't any pre gens and there
(43:26):
isn't an adventure that you can do with it. I'm just like,
why, why are people bringing this out without bringing
in the quick start or the adventure first?
why do we have games that
Why isn't there a one shot mode attached to them? Lots of
games. There are a few games now that will say, right, if you want to run this in the one shot,
just do this. If you want to, just do it. So Die is a
(43:47):
fantastic example of it. It's quite a difficult game to get your head around
you without, without, going
into too much detail. You're playing gamers
trapped in a fantasy world, reliving your
trauma as gamers in the real world.
>> Clint Scheirer (44:01):
And then you have to decide at the end whether or not you want to go
back or not. Right. Yeah. I love Grant
Howitt. I absolutely love most of his, I shouldn't say
all of his work pretty much. So yeah, go ahead.
>> Speaker A (44:12):
But it's hard to get in the game. It's got right. If you want
to do a one shot of this, which you probably do because
it's a hard sell to get people to come in for eight weeks and
say, yeah, you're going to be playing, adults in the real world and in a
fantasy world and you're going to be exploring the trauma that your
characters have had and it's going to be quite messy. There's a one
shot in the game called Total Party
Kill. Really straightforward, tells you exactly what to do
(44:35):
with timings on and everything. Why can't more games have that?
why isn't there a D20 & D? You know, the starter set is all well and
good. You can't run through
Lost Minds of Fandelvea in three hours, can
you?
>> Clint Scheirer (44:48):
No.
>> Speaker A (44:49):
and there will be that. There's another podcast being recorded
right now by someone who's saying the probably with Lost Minds of
Thrandelvea is we only got like five sessions of play out of
it. There's not enough in there. But why isn't that
option as well? Why isn't there right, this a one shot. Just hand these out,
get through it and do it. I'll shout out. One of the
best quick starts that I've seen is a game called Fabula
(45:09):
Ultima.
>> Clint Scheirer (45:10):
Oh yeah, yeah.
>> Speaker A (45:11):
Jrpg. It's quick Start, press start is amazing.
It even has. You have a character sheet that's numbered
sections. Each scene of the adventure unlocks a
different bit of your char sheet. It's like, I don't know,
somebody has actually, I'm sure somebody
in the design team is a teacher or a
trainer or has actually has some knowledge of that because it's just
(45:31):
so easy to play and run. And even as you run, you run lot those
rules you go like why don't we have more of that? Why don't we have
more people thinking right here's a one shot. So if you get like
six people. I've a situation six people want to discover D20 &
D. I've, I've heard about it. I've played Baldur's Gate. I want to
play a role playing game. I want to do D20 & D because it's what I've heard
of. And I'd always say don't be sniffy
(45:51):
about D20 & D if it's not the game that you play all the time. If you want to play D20 &
D, run D20 & D for them. Like
why isn't there a pack that we can just do it and then
they'll get three hours of fun and be like ye, this is alrigh.
Now I'll go and now I'll invest some more
time into it or now I'll look at other games and now I'll do it.
>> Clint Scheirer (46:08):
When Drive Thru RPG has done a really good job
allowing creators to create one shots. I
remember I was so sick of never
being able to get my players to the highest
level. Right. Because campaigns take
forever. So I just had a made level
18 characters and found somebody who had made a one shot
for level 18 characters really well. I'll actually put a link
(46:31):
in the show notes to that particular game. It was
phenomenal. but wow.
So overpowered. Our
people were basically gods in this world. Just
sloshing through all these high level monsters. But you're right.
>> Speaker A (46:46):
Yeah. I always have this thing with D20 & D where'almost like it's not that complicated.
It's fine. I've done it. I don't play loads Ann. But then, then
I ran a campaign of it a couple of years back
and there was a moment, there's a moment where they hit sixth
level where I was like o know actually this is quite hard work now.
I't. That's why down in sort of level 1, 2 and 3
which is where you end up playing a lot. It's pretty straightforward,
easy to GM not Too many rules involved. Wants to hit sixth
(47:09):
level. You're like, oh, hang on a minute, I need to actually think about some of
this.
>> Clint Scheirer (47:12):
Yeah. I also don't, you know, pooo.
D20 & D. Yeah. But it was my gateway drug
to tabletop RPGs because I got to a point where I'm
like, what else is there? And wow.
Yeah, there is so much else out there
that, that can really wet the pallet of almost any,
any form of storytelling that you want. Any genre
(47:33):
that you would be interested in beyond just the fantasy genre.
So that's a really awesome perspective
that. Why isn't there more? I
almost think of it like a video game tutorial.
>> Speaker A (47:43):
Yeah.
>> Clint Scheirer (47:44):
Yeah, Right.
If I was starting a game, it would be like press A to swing and
then later on it's telling me how I can go into my inventory
and heal myself after I get one damage from a little
imp that took down my H ##p, a few points. So,
if people want to connect with you more, if they wanna
see what your work is all about, learn more about
what you do, where can they find you?
(48:05):
Where should they go?
>> Speaker A (48:08):
So I, am. If you want to connect me on Blue
Sky, I'm burn after running on there. I
also. That's your best bet at getting me on social
media, to be honest, these days.
I also. You'll also see The Unconventional Gems
YouTube channel we've talked about. Myself and my co host
Gaz, who's also the Smart Party podcast in the uk.
do tight two hour one shots with Pace VI and
(48:30):
Vigor. We've got loads of games on the apps that we've got D20 & D on there.
We've got, you know, a wide range and if you
want to see how different games can be, just
have a look at that and see that I.
>> Clint Scheirer (48:41):
Was hard pressed to find a game that you guys hadn't
done that I was interested in when I went to your YouTube
channel.
>> Speaker A (48:47):
Yeah, we've got a big list. We've got a list of stuff that
we're rotating through as well from there. and I blog at Burn
afternning. it's burnasterrunningrpg.com if you go
to burnafterrunning.coma, that's another guy that does a blog about
running. Not games, just running.
So burnafrunning rpg.com if you want to follow that. If you
like the stuff that's on there. There's loads of prepped one
shots as well as me saying what I reckon
(49:10):
about things and trying to comment on stuff. if you use
anything on there, I also have a Patreon that supports that.
So it's absolutely fine. If you want to support that or if you don't,
just tell people about it. It's great. it just,
helps to fund Internet the Internet
people to keep it online. But yeah, be great to connect with
people and we'll have to. Clint, we'll have to get you on on conventional
(49:30):
Gems.
>> Clint Scheirer (49:31):
Oh my gosh. That would be a dream. That would be
a dream. I'd be so pumped. well thanks again guy for
coming. Thanks for being on the podcast. We hope to see more from you
and from the unconventional GMs and burn after running and all
the cool stuff that you do in the future.
thanks again.
>> Speaker A (49:47):
It's been a pleasure.
>> Clint Scheirer (49:47):
Clint Y so just play
hard. Play hard. Please hit like and
subscribe if you enjoyed hearing from Guai today and you wantna hear more
wisdom, power and love from others who want to have a great time
with friends and experience amazing stories through tabletop role
playing games. And may you keep having fun as you
continue to make that claim to game.
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