Empowering Youth and Ensuring Safe Sport with Nicole Kuzmich and Simon Taylor

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Music.

(00:32):
Welcome to the Coaches' Idea podcast. I am your host, Marvin Ocala.
We would like to acknowledge that the land on which the Canadian Sport and Student
Atlantic's office and training facilities located is the unceded territory of the Mi'kmaq people.
The purpose of the podcast is to share the stories and lived experiences for
the many diverse coaches across
Atlantic Canada in hopes that others can learn from listening to them.
I'm pleased to welcome Nicole Kuzmich and Simon Taylor, who both work as certified

(00:56):
mental performance consultants at CSIA.
I met Simon I'm in last year while working with Halifax Wanderers and recently
met Nicole when I joined Canadian Sport and Student Land.
Though Nicole and Simon have the same job title, they have very different lived
experiences that have led them to where they are today.
Nicole and Simon have different educations backgrounds, but are both certified
mental performance consultants.

(01:17):
Welcome, Nicole and Simon. How are you doing today?
Good. Thanks for having us. Yeah, nice to be here.
It's my pleasure. And I understand that, Simon, you recently did a podcast as
well with Sport Nova Scotia.
Yeah, I did. So it's good to be doing another one.
Awesome. Well, hopefully there's some different topics here to discuss,
but just a quick plug on what were some of the topics you discussed on that

(01:42):
podcast before we jump into this one?
So the premise of that one was just understanding a little bit about athletes'
transition out of sport.
So whether that's by choice because like their university career is coming tonight
and they're like getting a job and join the working world and don't have time
to work compete at the level anymore that they're used to or maybe it's because

(02:02):
of an injury and so just kind of diving deep into like what does that look like
how does it feel and how do we kind of like navigate those situations.
That's great simon thanks for telling us about the podcast and i look forward
to hearing that when it comes out.
This is podcast number three. We had guest Dave Green on podcast number two,

(02:22):
and it was great to hear his perspective.
And I'm looking forward to hearing about your experiences as mental performance consultants.
Nicole, can you please tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today?
As a mental performance consultant? Yeah, of course. Always a loaded question.
I feel like it has a lot of train tracks going in parallel opposite lines that

(02:46):
don't always make sense.
But I think the biggest thing for me- And before you do, before you do,
sorry, Nicole Kuzmich was an international figure skater who worked hard to
reach the peak competitive streams of her sport, but we'll tell you that she
was very privileged to be able to reach the highest levels in figure skating.
But with that being said, not all her experiences were positive.
And that is what has led to her transitioning to a mental performance consultant

(03:09):
to support youth in sport.
Cole, the floor is yours. Sweet. Thanks. Yeah.
So I think my life has always revolved around sport.
It's what I started doing when I was three. I got into figure skating when I
was three because my mom vowed that she would never have a kid that couldn't
skate on school skate day.

(03:29):
So my career in skating started selfishly due to my lovely mother wanting me
to not be that kid that couldn't skate. But I started skating when I was three.
I had an X factor, as the coaches would tell me, and they picked me out when
I was three years old and put me right into that competitive stream when I was pretty young.
I went to my first Junior Worlds when I was 14.

(03:51):
I did four in a row. Once I hit that age of, you know, you're too old for junior, I went up to senior.
Competed on the senior Grand Prix circuit for a year or two,
went to Senior World Olympic, the University Olympic Games in Almaty, Kazakhstan.
And then I retired from sports unwillingly, much like maybe Simon talked about on his podcast.

(04:14):
I transitioned out of sport involuntarily, not up to my decision,
which led for a whole bundle of mess for about five years after, but absolutely...
Loved what I did, wouldn't trade it for everything.
And I think that really transitioned into my work of mental performance because

(04:35):
I find a lot of love and passion working with youth in sport because for a majority of my career,
I was a high-performance athlete before adolescence,
going through puberty as a young woman in sport, and it was really hard.
So I think I take that lived experience and I transition over into my work and
helping youth and adolescents kind of gain those voices and learn from their

(04:56):
experiences in a lot more positive, adaptive way.
That's awesome. So I mean, three points for me to extrapolate out of that.
First of all, shout out your mom.
Thank you for encouraging Nicole to get into the sport.
And second, you know, the lived experience and being able to be an athlete a

(05:17):
lot of times is really good base and a good foundation when you're speaking
with other athletes and then being able to go, oh, she competed at the highest level,
I should listen to her and respect her, because that's where I want to get to.
So I think that's always really important when you're talking with athletes.
And then third, you know, it's great to hear you've competed at such a high
level, which gives you that, you know, international experience as well,

(05:40):
which a lot of people who only make it on their local team, or maybe their provincial
team and never get to that international stage where things get even more complicated
with different countries having different policies and different rules and different
ways of approaching the sport.
So that's really great to hear that you have that very balanced background and
then combining that all with your education, I'm sure is something that you

(06:01):
talk about a lot, especially the education piece. It's something we'll dive
into later in the podcast.
Yeah, for sure. Definitely was hard being a student athlete,
but such a lived experience that I think it was a big talking point with the kids that I consult now,
like balancing academics and athletics is challenging, but can be done if done with intention.

(06:22):
That's awesome. And what are the age ranges of the youth that you work with?
Yeah, my youngest is an eight-year-old.
So earlier we were talking about, you know, those crazy five-year-olds running around the gym.
My youngest is eight and, you know, I go all the way up to, I think my oldest
is 36 or something like that.
But my sweet age range that I really enjoy working with build a lot of my most,

(06:43):
I enjoy working with all ages, but my, my prime age range I enjoy really working with is really that 10,
12 age range into like 16, 18.
Like I really enjoy that age.
Which makes sense from like, you know, past that adolescent stage where they're
really starting to actually understand their minds and bodies and what's going

(07:04):
on, having those thoughts, those questions, puberty starting to come into play.
So I'm sure that, you know, not only do the parents appreciate you supporting
these youth, but I'm sure the youth really enjoy having somebody who's not their
parent supporting them as well.
Yeah. And I love being goofy, which is like how you kind of get to a 10 year
old's heart. Sometimes you gotta be a little goofy to get a laugh.

(07:25):
And once you get a laugh, you're like, all right, I'm in like, I got this.
100%. I think that's a characteristic we all share really, Simon included.
And I think when you're working with youth, you have to have that little bit
of goofiness to relate with them and not seem like another authoritative figure
that's just like a boring person they're going to be speaking to.
And then on that, you know, shout out to Evan in our office,

(07:46):
who's always that lighthearted guy, you know, making sure that we're all smiling and having a good time.
You always need one of those people in the office. And I'd like to say,
actually, that we have multiple in our office.
So it's been great being a part of this team. And thanks for joining, Nicole.
Simon. So Simon comes from a golf background and has competed internationally and in the NCAA.

(08:08):
Simon experienced nerves and anxiety in his own sport career that led him to
dive into the mental performance field.
Simon is known for not only spreading awareness, but also advocating that we
should address mental health, not just on the bad days, but also on the good days. Simon, welcome.
Thanks for having me. It's wonderful to be here on this Friday afternoon.
Definitely. So Simon, you know, we tried to put together a little golf tournament

(08:31):
when we were when we were working together at the Wanderers last year that it never happened.
So hopefully we can make that happen this year but tell us
a little bit about how you got to where you are today as a consultant for canada
sport institute land yeah so actually similar to nicole my dad introduced me
to golf because he is actually a golf coach and so born in germany raised by parents and.

(08:58):
I started golf when I was about two and a half, three years old.
I would just have these like plastic clubs of the size of me and I'd just be
like doing air swings around everywhere.
And I'd always insist on joining my dad to work. And he was like,
right, if you want to come.
And he was happy for me to like tag along. And yeah, it just,
it kind of just like had this natural progression where I just fell in love with the board.

(09:19):
I love doing it. And my dad coached me and it got to the point where like as
a junior, I was fairly successful, like winning state championships and stuff like that in Germany.
Germany and competing international events and
to the point where I actually got like a really almost like
a full ride to go to the uh to compete at B1 in
the NCAA in the states and I thought that was like my golden
ticket and I was like brilliant this is this is it I always make a joke when

(09:42):
I meet teams and I'm like well I'm standing here today and so obviously that
didn't quite go as planned although even I did make it pro who knows maybe I'd
still be sitting here today having this conversation with the two of you but
all jokes aside like it just didn't work out as I had
hoped for and so what i decided to do was just i i as a result like to back

(10:02):
up a little bit there like i moved to the u.s thinking this was my golden ticket
and my game which had progressed naturally and they would all be be great my
game actually took a huge hit and so like my game.
Got to the place where i struggled so much that i actually didn't like sport
anymore and i didn't enjoy being there and so i needed to transfer after a couple
years and then i finished my I agree at another university in the States.

(10:23):
And then I realized towards the end that like, I want to understand what happened.
And so that really led me to dive into this idea of like sports psychology and
getting my master's and PE in that field.
So just kind of learn a little bit about like, what, what was this about?
And so I find myself nowadays really driven by the idea of like having that

(10:46):
lived experience of being an athlete and falling short because it was on the
mental side where I struggled because.
I sound ancient when I just, but back in my days, it was one of those things
that like you either have it or you don't mentally.
And like people still, a lot of like coaches, old school coaches will be the
same way. And so I guess in that regard, I didn't have it.
So I decided to like study and like understand that experience.

(11:07):
And now I have the joy and the privilege of working with all these wonderful
athletes and coaches and teams and kind of support through these challenges, challenges,
these situations from a viewpoint of, I know what you're going through,
because I've been there.
But also, I have the educational backing to say, here's things you can do to

(11:28):
kind of hopefully sidestep these situations that I faced as an athlete when I was your age.
That makes a lot of sense. And I mean, I did go on your website, tailoredmindset.com.
And, you know, one paragraph that really jumped out at me, you kind of call
to action, if you're wanting to move past the hurdles of your mind that keep
you from performing, or thinking strategically when it counts.

(11:48):
And if you want to learn skills that will help you beyond your athletic career, let's talk.
Like that to me speaks volumes in terms of what you can offer athletes and all
athletes, regardless of what sport you're in, deal with those situations where
they, whether it's imposter syndrome, whether it's the, you know,
I didn't get enough sleep, and am I going to be able to compete?
Whether is my diet good? Is, you know, and there's such a correlation there

(12:12):
between the mind and the body.
So it's really great to have folks like yourselves educating us on on that relationship
and you know how to increase our physical performance by taking care of our
mental performance well said so you know before we get into the nitty-gritty
of it i want to hear a little bit more about you as sports fans right so.

(12:34):
First simon i want to hear what is your favorite sporting moment as a fan of
sports i I being a big fan, I must say, so all the golf fans listening to this,
hopefully we'll, we'll know what I'm talking about. It was the year 2019.
It was April and the masters was on and Tiger Woods won the masters after like

(12:57):
dealing with yet another career ending injury.
And he just kept on coming back and kept on coming back.
And like, there was an injury where it was basically like, this is,
this was the final draw. Like he's done.
And he came back in 2019 and masters. And it was just, yeah,
like even just talking about it gives me goosebumps because he's just,
when you see like this, like this, they have like these pictures online where

(13:18):
it's all the surgeries he's had from like head to toe.
And you're like, how is he able to still walk yet alone, like compete at the
highest level? It's just, it's a wimple feat.
And so that for me as a golfer is like by far my number one experience moment as a fan. Yeah.
That's amazing. And honestly, Tiger Woods is such an inspiration to many golfers around the world.

(13:40):
But for me, he's also the epitome of the struggles of athletes at that highest
level, especially racialized athletes.
A black athlete who, you know, is one of the only in his sport who has reached
the, you know, the legendary status that he has.
And it's crazy to see the struggles because when you're that famous,

(14:00):
when you've got, you know, the Nikes and all the sponsorships attached and you're
on commercials and everything, you now become, you know, a leader that you have to act a certain way.
And there's pressures that go with that, obviously, mental pressures.
So it's really was great to see
him overcome and show that resiliency that you know
his father taught him when he was younger and and especially

(14:22):
coming out of all the negative things that we saw happen with
him with his mental health really deteriorating so that's a great moment assignment
and thanks for sharing that i almost forgot honestly because since covet it
seems like time is just like a concept yes he'll be back well next week the
masters are on again and as As of right now, he's meant to be competing in his first event.

(14:44):
So who knows, maybe 2024 is the year he does it again.
That's awesome. And honestly, golf is one of those sports that I had the stigma
that it was only for rich people.
It's only the last couple of years that I have actually started going out.
There's a driving range just up the street from me. So that was my first taste of it.
And then Dave Green actually got me out to a fun sports tournament for a fundraiser.

(15:05):
And I fell in love with it, man. And now I want to get out golfing as much as possible. Bowl.
And for all those who think that golf is only for rich people,
it's not. It's very affordable, especially here in Halifax.
Links at Montague is one of the really affordable courses.
And really, once you get some clubs, the fees aren't as much as what I thought
it was. I thought every golf day was a couple hundred bucks.
But once you get your initial clubs and all that, it's really not that bad.

(15:28):
So I highly recommend it. It can be expensive if you lose a lot of golf balls. Yeah.
Yeah, that's the learning curve expense, unfortunately. But
I actually hit the ground running i was my very first tournament
it was actually that fun sports one it was best ball and we
played nine holes and we used my
ball five of the nine holes ironically even though i was playing with two golfers

(15:51):
so you never done you never you never know you could be a natural and that's
why it's it's great to have some of these you know come try sports and whatnot
like fun sports does with with the kids to let them try golf and break down
some of those stigmas yeah So, Nicole,
what is your favorite sports moment as a fan?

(16:12):
Well, I don't have a date or a year like Simon, but I definitely,
it's ingrained in my head for sure.
So when I was an athlete, I competed for the Czech Republic for the last five
years of my sporting experience and my skating partner, I was in ice dance.
So I had a skating partner and his name is Alex.
His family was from the USSR and then eventually moved their way over to the

(16:36):
Czech Republic, which is where he was born.
And so we competed for the Czech Republic because he was from there and I already had an EU passport.
And so Alex moved from Prague to skate with me in Toronto.
And so he lived with my family for a couple of years, which was a whole other crazy dynamic.
But I remember this moment like it was yesterday and thinking about it makes

(16:57):
me laugh because it really paints me in a bad picture, but it doesn't matter
because it makes me laugh now.
It was whatever year in the finals of the junior tournament for hockey that
Canada was playing Russia.
And obviously, it could be a million years because I feel like that's a very
common matchup, obviously.
But it was whatever year in the later 2000s, maybe anywhere between 2012 and 2015.

(17:22):
And this is men's? It was men's. Yeah, it was men's. And it was the gold medal game.
It was in the room. It was my family and Alex and myself.
And my dad is a diehard hockey fan. I grew up watching hockey more than skating.
I probably even still like hockey more than skating and die hard, die hard fan.

(17:42):
And my dad comes in, he's got like the Canadian flag on a wall and he's decked
out in Canada gear and he's just so pumped.
And I'm like, so pumped to watch this game with my dad. And Alex comes in and
he's dressed in, like brings the Russian flag in, puts it on the opposite wall,
comes in with like his Russian, like Jersey on.
And then I was like, oh my God, I can. I just truly don't know where this is

(18:05):
going to go. Like I'm going to lose it anyway.
The whole game was just going over it. And it was, it was a tight game.
Like it was, it was one of the tightest games ever that I've watched.
And we get down, it's tied.
And Alex is just screaming like every, like, like good pass turnover goal point.
Doesn't matter. Like he's going ham and I couldn't take it. I was like,

(18:26):
Oh my God, I'm going to, I'm like, I'm going to, I think I, I think I might be violent.
I was like, this isn't it. Like I'm going to, he's got to stop because me and
my dad are like very like not like we're just chilling and he's going nuts.
And it was just getting so under my skin. And I was like, why is this bothering
me? Like, I don't understand.
And so it bugged, it bugged me so much that I actually, I left, I think it was OT.

(18:48):
I left and went to my room and listened to the rest of the game on the radio.
And it's my favorite sports memory.
Just because it showed me like how deep sport culture is.
Did I know anybody on that team? Absolutely not.
Nothing except like it was my nation against Alex's nation.

(19:11):
And it just taught me so much about like, you know, national identity and how
much you identify with your culture and your nation.
And it's just one of my favorite moments because I had
to finish it in my room under the pillow and we won which was
really great for my my ego but you know
we had a really hard time and then the next day we got to the
rink and he looked at me he was like i was a lot a and i'm

(19:32):
like yeah i'm sorry and it was just a really funny good
moment and that's probably my favorite i don't know if there's why
that is but it just really really makes me laugh to
look back on for sure as a fan just like super fan
to the max for no reason that's awesome
and if from a quick google good shirts it seems like it was 2012
was the year right definitely yeah that's

(19:56):
i thought for sure it was going to be a figure skating story you know for me
like i was gonna be like elvis stoico or something you know no i got many of
those but this one was the only time i've gotten heated like truly heated for
no reason and i was like i am ashamed but i love it for myself this This is good.
Fair enough. That's awesome. That's when Nicole's passion was ignited. Yeah, 2012.

(20:20):
Now, in terms of an athlete, what is your favorite moment when you were an athlete?
Yeah, lots of them. Truly can probably say I had a lot more lows as an athlete,
unfortunately, than highs.
I think my favorite memory ever was in my European championship.

(20:40):
So it was in Ostrava, Czech Republic.
And so like we were the home team. Okay.
And there was a little, before we competed, there's this line of like thousands
of little kids wanting to get my autograph with Alex.
And we're just sitting at the front table with like stacks of like our pictures to sign.

(21:03):
And there's just like thousands of little kids just waiting.
And it was so sweet, but that's not what I cared about.
I cared and I cried when it happened that my sweet mom flew all the way out
there to watch me and I didn't know.
And she waited in that line for an hour to come see me, to get my autograph, to just support me.

(21:27):
And I think that's my favorite moment as an athlete, that my sweet mom just
waited in that line for me and didn't come to the front and be like, that's my kid.
I paid for that. You know what I mean? There was none of that.
She just waited in the line and came and I was like, mom, and she's like,
yeah, can I have your autograph?
And I was like, oh my God, like you're the sweetest lady of all time.

(21:49):
Um, so not only did she put me in sport, but then she, she was there to see
one of my last competitions too.
So what's your mom's name again? Judy.
Doubt out Judy number two. Yeah, that's definitely it for sure.
That's incredible. And I mean, I'm sure there's so many of us,
you know, in sport who sometimes it wasn't the team that we were playing that really inspired us.

(22:12):
It was sometimes who who was in the crowd, whether it was mom and dad or your
siblings or, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend, grandma, whoever it might be.
So I love that. That's a great, great moment there. Thank you, Nicole.
So jumping right into it, because you did mention, you know,
that you did have quite a few negative experiences as an athlete,
you know, but I did forget actually Simon's moment as an athlete before I jump into that.

(22:39):
Yeah, I have a bit of a false vertical moment, actually, when I think about my favorite moments.
It's almost like a two-parter, which in a sense, it will make sense when I'm finished talking.
And so the first part, which was definitely like the low point of my golf career,
it was the end of my university career.
So like my first two years, I really struggled. Then I moved to another university
and got a little bit better again.

(23:00):
And I actually had a chance to qualify for nationals individually because I
was playing well enough.
It was a three-day tournament. i was leading after two days i was
like i was in control of this whole tournament it was basically just
i was going to win this thing and then like i kind
of choked i guess it's the best way to put it like i just like
i went from cruise control to everything went sideways and i

(23:21):
remember the 18th hole to i went from
like a huge lead to like track trailing and then
i managed to catch up and tie again and in the 18th hole i had like
a short putt to tie and go into a playoff and i missed that and that
was my final tournament of as a college golfer and i
remember that just like was like it still causes me
headache to this day and that was in 2015 and

(23:44):
since then like my golf game just really my that's where i started falling out
of love and struggling with my identity as a golfer and whatnot but last year
after having moved to canada for 2019 and like getting back into it again slowly
like last year i started taking it seriously again and last year i actually won a tournament,
an invitational tournament out here in Nova Scotia.

(24:04):
And that was like a full circle moment where like I was able to come through
and it just felt like that I was in cruise control.
And then I actually pulled it off. And that was my first since my college experience.
What course was that tournament at?
What course was the tournament at here in Nova Scotia? It was the Amherst Invitational.

(24:24):
Okay, awesome. Yeah, so I managed to pull off the victory there,
one-shot win, and I knew it going down the final stretch. I knew it and I was able to hold on to it.
And just coming off the course, it was a full-circle moment that just was almost
like this huge weight had been lifted off me by finally being able to come back again after that.
So that's my moment. That was your tiger moment.

(24:47):
There it is. Your own personal tiger moment.
We got to live vicariously through our heroes sometimes.
That's awesome. Thank you, Simon. So yeah, no jumping back in.
And admittedly, as you as you guys both know, as both an athlete and as a human

(25:11):
being, something I struggle with is insomnia.
So there are moments where, you know, I'll mess up a little bit on the order or whatnot.
But those are the things that it's been even great having you guys as co workers
to support me on and coming up with things to, you know, combat those things
and make sure that I'm still able to function at a high level,
both in my work and my personal life.
So that's something that I personally struggle with is insomnia.

(25:32):
So I'm coming off of one of those low nights of sleep.
But, you know, it's one of those things we all have to deal with.
But jumping back to Nicole, whole, you said you had some negative experiences in sports.
So one of the things that we want to talk about is safeguarding athletes in sport.
This is both coaches, parents, teammates, and, you know, everyone who really

(25:53):
contributes the environment around the athletes.
What can you tell me a little bit about, you know, what that responsibility
is for safeguarding athletes in sport?
Yeah, for sure. Safeguarding is definitely a word that takes many forms for
many different people, depending on what environment you're in or who you are

(26:15):
or even what country you're in.
I know like safeguarding looks quite differently in some other countries in
terms of even the language they use to safeguard an athlete.
I mean, it's just like such a diverse topic.
And so many people are ultimately responsible for a child or for youth or for an athlete.

(26:37):
And sometimes I feel like we put the onus on the athlete when a lot of time
they have some power and autonomy stripped from them where they can't guard
themselves and they can't keep themselves safe in the environment that they're in.
And I know in my master's, I did a good project on Russian figure skating in

(27:02):
terms of some of the abuse and intoxiculture that was going on in there.
I mean, I was reading a lot of literature, finding out different systems of theories to work.
And I came across a quote that was from, I think it was the lawyer that was
doing some of those Boston cases in terms of the abuse that was
going on in the catholic church but this quote just like stood out for like

(27:24):
what i think safeguarding means to me and means to a community as well and the
quote was if it takes a village to raise a child it takes a village to abuse
one and to me that just like sparks such.
Such thought, really. It's just highlighting. It's a really profound statement.
Yeah, it really just hits it on the nail on the head there in terms of the bystander effect.

(27:53):
Okay, so the abuse is allegedly going on, let's just say, between one coach
and one athlete, but it's never that.
Other athletes see things. Those athletes make little comments to other people,
to parents, to other coaches, to teachers at school.
They don't even have to know where the kid trains or
connection but those things come out and

(28:15):
words are said and actions are taken and it just
really speaks to ultimately like the duty to
report and the duty to ask more questions yeah i really like it because it really
adds an accountability piece to the original statement that everyone knows with
that quote it takes village to raise a child But this is really a continuation

(28:36):
of that and an accountability piece towards, hey,
yeah, it takes a village to raise a child, but we can also do harm to that child
if we don't honor that responsibility for every child in the community for us
to contribute. That's things like neighborhood watch.
That's things like, you know, in sport, it's more specific and it's seeing a
coach, you know, leaving with a player and, you know, they're one-on-one and

(29:00):
breaking things like the rule of two,
you know, and some of these things start off as very small, but can end up as really big situations.
So I really like the accountability piece around, yes, we all have responsibility
in raising a child and making sure that they're not ending up in situations
of abuse or neglect. intellect.
And, you know, the term safe sport comes up a lot when you talk about,

(29:23):
you know, abuse and things like that.
So, Simon, can you shed some light a little bit on what is the meaning behind
safe sport and the purpose of that?
Yes, I can talk a little bit about that. But before I talk about it,
I really want to give a shout out to our SafeSport lead through Sport Nova Scotia,
which is Ilana Lieberman.
Because my whole knowledge with SafeSport and my interest in diving deep into
this area and learning so much about it all stemmed from, or the majority of

(29:47):
it stemmed from her sitting down and talking to me.
So, like, she is nothing short of amazing.
And it's absolutely. And so, yeah. I want to add to that as well.
I've gotten the pleasure of meeting Elena both when I was at the Wanderers,
when I was the lead for the diversity committee and we're working with fan safety

(30:08):
and coming up with processes for restorative processes for dealing with fans
and not just the classic, hey,
you're banned for three games and no accountability.
And that's going to be a word I'm going to bring up a lot. But it's
that accountability piece to them to actually show some learning and some growth
behind it before we determine if we want if we even want people to come back

(30:29):
after a ban or maybe we're just better off not having that fan around anymore
for the sake of everybody else's safe environment while watching and enjoying
the matches. So big shout out to Elena.
Love the work that she does with both, you know, the restorative processes,
but also with the athletes like Luke Berryman, who's one of her leads for the
athlete program. So yeah, big shout out to Elena.

(30:52):
Yeah. So for me, like when I think of say sport, you kind of touched it on it
there with this idea of like, it's not stop banning when bad things happen.
And like that is, that is definitely part of it. It's like punishing bad things,
but really like the viewpoint that I like looking at. So it's all about this
idea of like, let's not just focus on all the bad stuff.
Obviously that's a huge thing that needs to be dealt with, but it's also about

(31:15):
like, let's create these like environments that are like welcoming,
inclusive, accessible, and participate in them.
So it's just whoever you are, you can participate in this environment and enjoy
yourself. That's really it.
And not experience any kind of harm.
So it's the absence of harm that we're trying to obviously achieve,

(31:39):
but we're also trying to do more than just not harm anyone, if that makes sense.
It's like being proactive rather than reactive, if I could summarize it. Sure. Yeah, in a way.
Yeah. I also want to highlight and jump in there, Marvin,
a little bit about, I think it's really common for society and coaches and athletes

(32:00):
and IST members to think of, oh, safe sport means abuse and abuse might just
mean sexual or physical harassment or neglect.
Neglect that's true but we're also
looking at a broader spectrum of emotional and psychological
maltreatment and abuse and all those those areas
we like to maybe say are a little bit more gray zone because it's

(32:22):
a little bit harder to define and see and understand
but they're just as impactful and they're just as devastating on athletes as
well and so it's always like it's not just physical it's not just sexual you
really got to think broader that we're emotional psychological maltreatment
and abuse is just as prevalent and if not maybe even more prevalent in sport.

(32:45):
100%. And I mean, for me, this word safe sport is actually very transparent,
you know, and it encompasses so much. That's why I think it's a great term.
It's everything under the umbrella of being safe within sport,
you know, and within the inclusion, diversity, equity, accessibility lines,
like that means everyone participating in sport being able to feel seen, heard, and understood.

(33:08):
And those three are important for everybody, you know,
and because I get that question sometimes people are like what
does you know inclusion diversity equity and accessibility
mean ultimately in sport like why is there
so many of these roles popping up and it's because
our roles is really to work with people who are in safe sport
people who are in mental performance people who are in accessibility people who

(33:29):
are kind of tying it all in to really create
that overall safe space for athletes
coaches fans everybody to be involved in and it's
something that you know would you guys say and i'll start with
simon would you say that is it only the
coach's responsibility to create a safe environment for athletes
to navigate the way through sport or are there other people who

(33:50):
are crucial to supporting any given athlete yeah it's everyone's responsibility
like whoever you are if you're involved in this sport to some extent you play
a role like that's not to say that like if you're a spectator your role is just
as like impactful as It's like a head coach who sees the people 24-7.
Not what I'm saying, but everyone who's involved plays a role to some extent.

(34:13):
And that varies from individual to individual.
But it's funny that Nicole mentioned this idea.
There's a lot of grayness in there because Ilana and I have actually done multiple
SafeSport presentations for coaches where we've kind of tied together my research
that I've done, which is heavily focused on coach research and the impact it
has on athletes' experiences.
And then Ilana's background within SafeSport and sport law and such,

(34:37):
and come up with this presentation.
It's called the idea of just beyond the gray zone.
So really just understanding how coaches create an environment that is focused
on SafeSport principles, but at the same time, it doesn't exclude performance
because that's what we see oftentimes.
A little bit of like, not fear, but when we talk about well-being and safe and

(35:02):
all these kinds of things,
i've really like not really come across a coach i've been like i don't believe
in this like pretty much everyone that i've spoken to about this is like yes it's super important,
but then there's a little thing that's like yeah but what about performance like are
we are we talking about this at the expensive performance it's
like no no it actually all like goes in hand with each other like we can have
performing athletes that also say and also enjoying themselves so that was a

(35:25):
little bit of a side note there but i just wanted to highlight that point around
the grain is that like the stuff is challenging because there is so much grain
is here it's not all like straightforward and cookie cutter situations a lot of it is the way.
Yeah, I'll leave it at that. No, that makes sense.
And I mean, for me, you know, a lot of these conversations are just diving deeper
into issues that are starting to become a lot more prevalent in sport, especially post COVID.

(35:49):
Like, you know, locally here, and for example, there's the basketball scene
where, you know, a lot of basketball leagues stopped allowing parents and families
to come watch games because they weren't creating a safe sport environment.
They were heckling. They were, you know, even putting pressure on their own children.
You know, you do better, yada, yada. And like, you know, putting a negative
connotation around the environment for those athletes to just play the game,

(36:14):
you know, and yeah, and that's one part of it.
There's the issue with officials not wanting to even be officials anymore.
So the sign up rate for officials has gone down because of the abuse that they're
taking from both coaches who are yelling at them, fans who are yelling at them,
parents who are yelling at them, players who are yelling at them.
And so it really is just everybody, you know, who is going to either be working

(36:38):
at a sport facility, who's going
to be playing at a sport facility or even spectating during the sport.
Sometimes it's even the people who are helping the people get there,
whether it's the bus driver or whether it's the you know what I mean?
It's everybody who comes into contact with the athletes.
And for me, that's why it's really important for coaches to surround themselves
with those people who are going to help them, the mental performance consultants.

(37:02):
The physiotherapists, the, you know, even working with the parents to have hard
conversations around what their involvement with their kids' lives in sport looks like.
Because sometimes parents are actually the biggest hurdle for athletes and why
a lot of athletes quit sport.
We definitely i i've done some sessions with
parents and i'm pretty sure nicole has also done

(37:23):
like her and i have had quite a few conversations about sport parents and how
the sport parents can be wonderful and there's so many wonderful experiences
it's always like nicole's mom like my dad but then you have these sport parents
that are like you nine games like threatening the ref and whatnot it's like
yeah what is going on here yeah.
Yeah, it's crazy. And like, even talking about your parents,

(37:45):
like, I went from, you know, being 11 and loving my mom and dad coming to the games all the time.
And, you know, I think for like a two year period, I went like I scored every
single game where my mom and dad came to watch because for me,
it was that added motivation, I have to do well for them.
And then at a certain point, it flipped. And you know, my father actually became

(38:06):
a negative pressure on me because he was He was expecting me too much now that
I'm, you know, on the provincial team. He's, you know, you should be national, you should be pro.
And, you know, because he had that expectation, he wasn't letting me just be
a kid and just play and not have all these additional pressures.
So it's really important for parents to not add stresses to athletes.

(38:29):
Is there anything you'd like to elaborate on that, Nicole?
Yeah, let your kid be a kid for as long as possible.
Incredible like letting your kid go to i have
so so this comes off so many times in my sessions like
parents are like should i let my kid go to a sleepover the
weekend before a tournament like should i let my kid go trick-or-treating and
like it's like yeah man like let them eat too much candy and throw up i'm just

(38:51):
kidding don't let them do that but like just let like let them be a kid like
let them do like that's not gonna harm their performance it's gonna increase
enjoyment and relatedness, and well-being,
and that's going to increase their performance, right?
Like, yeah, let them be good. Allowing them to make mistakes.
Like, because how often would you say that, like, you actually learn more through

(39:13):
mistakes than through successes? Like, more.
Like, make mistakes. Like, probably. Like, how many times have I done something
good and then thought about it, like, zero times?
Like, it's all the mistakes we make. And then we're like, oh,
okay, like, let me rethink about that. But yeah, let your kid be a kid.
They're only going to be a kid for so long. And then the tax man comes before

(39:34):
you know it and we're done.
Like we're not kids anymore. So just let them do it.
I mean, there's a lot, Simon can speak more to it better than I can,
but there's so much literature on like...
Early specialization is actually worse for your kid than diversification, right, Simon?
There's a lot of literature on that in terms of let your kid sample a lot of

(39:55):
sports, try a lot of different things, build competencies in a lot of different
areas, and then specialize into a sport when we're getting into later mid-adolescence.
What Simon gave, swinging in a golf club at three and me learning to skate at three,
like like great but it doesn't mean that we were
gonna be any better than a
kid that maybe started a couple years later yeah yeah

(40:18):
no absolutely and i echo exactly what nicole says like this idea of like letting
the kids be kids and have fun like yeah you're not gonna become you're not elite
at a u12 level like this idea of like a u12 elite campus just it's like sure
you've put that label on this you can charge more money and say this is a high
performance program but like really like let me kids,
because like how many kids.

(40:41):
I'll ask like Nicole, have you seen and spoken with, and I speak from experience
as well, that once they reach 18, they're like, I'm done with this sport and
I'm never doing it again.
Hate it. And now I actually hate my whole relationship with sport and I struggle
because of like, I was forced, I didn't get a choice and all these kinds of
things. I had to skip trick-or-treating.
I had to skip sleepovers. There's no opportunity for me to have fun.

(41:03):
And now sport is a chore that just brings me so much dissatisfaction.
And like Nicole said, if you're having fun, you will be more motivated.
And if you're more motivated, you'll play better.
And you'll walk away saying, I want to do this again. And if you mess up and
you're still able to enjoy yourself, you'll come back and be like,
I messed up. So what? It doesn't matter.
It doesn't have to be all this shame and blame and high performance 24-7. It's just nonsense.

(41:29):
As you can see, Nicole and I get very animated. Yeah, we do.
For sure. I mean, it's about balance, right? Like for me, it's summarizing it
about balance, you know, letting them be a kid as much as possible while, yeah, sure.
If they start to thrive in their sport, allow them higher opportunities to play
on a more competitive level, maybe play an age level up, but still allow them to be them.

(41:50):
So this for me comes up a lot where I get parents asking me,
you know, my kid's under 12, they're 10 years old, and that's age group they're supposed to be in.
But they're not being challenged enough they're dominating this age
group so I want to put them in U14 what do you
think and for me the answer is different for every kid because some
kids are ready for that jump socially and some
kids are not it's not just about competing on the field it's it's what are those

(42:13):
conversations in the locker room going to look like now that they're in a different
age group what are even on field conversations their ability to deal with kids
who are pushing them physically and mentally you know because as you get older
the chirps get worse in a lot of ways in sports.
So it's finding that balance to let them protect them from a lot of those things
and being exposed to that too quickly, but also allowing them to thrive in their

(42:38):
out of sport environment where they're able to go to that sleepover.
They're able to go to that house party if they're in high school and they're
starting to do those things.
They're able to, you know, really just participate in things that are outside of their sport.
They're going to allow them to be that balanced human being because
I know so many athletes athletes that a burnt
out because they're put so much pressure on their them to succeed

(43:01):
early that they're they do what you said simon they go you
know what i'm done with sport actually even though i'm really good at
it it's no longer enjoyable for me that's one that's one avenue that happens
but the other is sometimes that they end up being so introverted because they
don't have that social experience in terms of just hanging out and learning

(43:22):
to talk to the opposite sex to talk to
older kids, younger kids, you know?
And it's, so it's about balance for me.
I always it's funny that you say just like they don't
talk like I have some of the funniest laughing moments
ever when I watch some NHL players do
interviews I'm like this is painful like you

(43:43):
look in like yeah like you look in like you look like you're in pain talking
to this report like I understand they don't necessarily want to do it but just
yeah I'm like this is awkward like this is painful and and even watching like
their impromptu feed channels of like when and they're supposed to be having
fun with like puppies and things. I'm like, this is still awkward.
Like, you know, yeah. Like, I'm like, this is crazy.

(44:07):
Yeah. Like just be a kid for sure.
For sure. So, I mean, Nicole, you work with youth and working with youth is
very important, obviously, because they're the next generation,
but it also has its own set of challenges, such as the duty to report,
which you mentioned earlier, when you see certain things happen to the youth.
But I'm sure there are a lot of rewarding moments when you've helped a youth
overcome those obstacles that they can't handle on their own.

(44:30):
But what are some of the challenges that you specifically help youth with?
Yeah, a big one is just like finding their own voice.
I think when you're a kid, obviously, your parents, you know,
do pretty much everything for you from the morning, you the time you wake up
in the morning till you go to bed.
And so it's really Really just allowing them to find their own autonomy and

(44:54):
their own voice to say that they do like something or they don't like something.
Or I had this sweet, very lovely kid that really gets stressed out on the drive
to competitions because their parent really wants to talk to them about what
you're going to do when you get to the competition.
How's it going to go? Make sure you do this. Make sure you do that.

(45:15):
And they just hate it. They said that out of the entire competition experience,
that's the most stressful thing for them, that specific moment.
It's not at the venue. It's not during the game. It's not during halftime. It's nothing.
It is on the way to the game, talking with their parent for that 15 minutes.
They hate that. And it's just allowing them to tell their parent,

(45:38):
hey, can we just listen to music?
You know, like allowing a challenge is just getting a kid to feel comfortable
to tell their parent what will allow them to enhance performance because they know what will.
So giving them that voice, giving that autonomy for youth is pretty difficult
and can be quite challenging depending on the age.

(45:58):
So I think that's one of the biggest things that I work on with them all the time.
It's not for parents listening. I'm not trying to defy you or anything like that.
It's more just that kid knows what works for them and just allowing them to tell you.
I think sometimes we think kids don't know what's going on, or they don't need
to be involved in that conversation, or they're not old enough,

(46:19):
or they're not smart enough yet. It's like, nah, they're smart enough.
They just don't have the vocabulary maybe yet to tell you, but they listen,
they understand, they interpret.
They're much more intelligent than sometimes I think we give them credit for.
And so it's bringing them into a lot of conversations and allowing them to voice

(46:40):
their opinion is probably the biggest challenge that I can definitely think of.
I love that you said giving them their voice, because it's something that a lot of adults,
regardless of what their coach, teacher, whatever their role is in dealing with
youth, don't understand that youth have a voice that once you empower them to

(47:00):
use, you'll be really surprised what some things some youth will tell you.
You know, I've had youth have opinions on politics on and viewpoints that like adults don't have.
And sometimes they think outside
of the box and they have some really good points that you're like, hmm.
All right. Anyone's really ever thought of that. Yeah. They say the funniest
things and some things they say and that you think you you literally I've had sessions.

(47:23):
And after I chat with kids and I go home and I'm like, I think they're right.
But I'm like, oh, my God. What?
Like 100 percent. that you know and Simon kind of
I don't know why Simon but you seem to me like
a kid who would have been very opinionated you know
what actually actually I would actually say it
was the opposite I was very much just I was just like tell

(47:46):
me what to do tell me what to do tell me what to do and so it was
almost like I was the opposite but because of
that so I think this is almost like a good segue to this story that Nicole's telling
about about giving kids that voice and that option to
kind of share because i like it's not
that i wasn't given an opportunity i just kind of was like tell me
please tell me please help help help help and my dad being my coach was so wonderful

(48:06):
they said yeah here you go and all my coaches were like yeah here you go but
then i got to like the us and i was on my own and like i had to be an adult
and like feed myself look after myself practice on my own i didn't have all
these like support groups around me and i was like.
How does this go? And the response was, well, figure it out.
You're old enough. And I was like, well, I'm not sure how to figure it out.

(48:28):
So I think oftentimes the idea of giving kids voices is so, so important because
a lot of parents and coaches I see, especially working with younger groups,
and Nicole can probably attest to this, we give them, we're like,
here, take this, do this, do this, do this.
I'm helping you, telling you what you need so you can avoid these mistakes.
But we need to learn those mistakes. we need to like stumble

(48:49):
along the way because if we kind of avoid all those things then you're
like so dependent on let's say nicole nicole
how does it work and at some point nicole can't tell you how everything works
your parent can't tell you all the time your coach can't tell you and so you
need to like kind of figure things out on your own as well so this interdependence
comes to mind this is so so important for human development if you will that

(49:11):
makes a lot of sense And for me, I get this image of like,
you know, starting off with three, four, five-year-olds, you know,
and you see them on this physical leash sometimes when they're all walking from
daycare to the park or whatever, there's 20 of them, we're all physically tied
together and walking, you know what I mean?
But then there's there's like a metaphorical leash, too, that we put on kids

(49:33):
where we don't allow them that safety and that opportunity to actually escape
the leash, you know, and try stuff and make mistakes and learn on your own.
And it's understanding that by actually giving them that that slack to try things
that they are going to be then prepared for those future situations like you

(49:53):
just talked about, Simon.
And like, so for me, it's, it's when you go on provincial tournaments and stuff,
you know, I mean, out of province and a coach allowing you not just to always
be micromanaging you as a group. And we're going to do this together.
We're going to do this together.
It's, there's going to be some free time for you guys. Go eat what you want.
Go do what you want. Go play.
You know, if you want to go play some cards in a room together,

(50:13):
it's that opportunity for them to actually learn.
Learn and then a lot of the times they'll actually come
to you as a mental performance coach or as a
coach or whatever to be like hey I need help rather than
you forcing it down for them to actually be doing which
a lot of times has the opposite effect where they go nah I don't want to do
it yeah it's again it comes like this balance right like if you give them too

(50:37):
much space they could do we want I don't care then accidents might happen and
then like say sport related you're on the leash because like you were responsible
for them so like I fully understand
that like we need to like we have a duty of care we need to
look after them but at the same time like micromanaging can
also be problematic so it's it's all about finding this balance and
so like day in and day out you're like staying in like zone and like you're

(50:59):
constantly shifting one way or another and making sure oh i've just come out
with this one oh i've just come out this one bring it back bring it back bring
it back and it's yeah it's just this stuff is tough and like that's why like
nicole and i talk about this day in and day out because it's It's not a one
single conversation and you're like, check, done.
Never have to worry about this again. It's an ongoing conversation day in and day out.
A hundred percent. And when it comes, yeah. Yeah. No, no. I was just going to

(51:22):
say in terms of like, you know, I'm, I don't not a parent, so I don't know yet.
And you know, one day I might, and I'll be like, Oh my God.
But you know, I'm not an expert parent or anything like that,
but I just, I like, but Simon does it as well as you might.
Like we listen to kids for a living, like we sit there and we just listen to
what they actually have to say.

(51:43):
And so we're not expert parents by any means, but like we do listen to what
they think about their relationships.
And when it comes out in the wash, there's a lot of different theories about
there for in terms of involvement of a parent and like interaction with their kids in sport.
But like one of the more studied or one that I have read a lot about is like
family system theory and their big idea

(52:04):
there is that it's not the type of involvement. It's the amount of it.
So looking, looking at like being over-involved or under-involved versus like
that middle little point.
And so when it comes to like parent engagement in sport, it's more the amount
that you're giving instead of the type, according to that theory.
So it's just, it's quite interesting.
And, you know, no parent I've never come across.

(52:27):
You can see like, you can group them all, all these parents do this,
all of them do this and you can kind of group it, but every story is so different.
Every parent child's communication relationship is so different and it's so unique.
Unique so it's very yeah it's very cool no definitely
and you know the tie is well into our next point nicole because when we chatted

(52:48):
you know prior to this podcast you talked to me about these yellow flags which
which you use could you tell me a little bit more about what you use those yellow
flags for yeah yeah my yellow flags are a little bit more on that side of like.
Safeguarding athletes in sport and and youth in sport and looking at safe sport
engagement And so I have my metaphorical little yellow flags in my back pocket

(53:13):
everywhere I go, everything I do.
And if something just doesn't seem the way I think it should morally or ethically
or just doesn't really fit, I just put a little yellow flag in it.
And I note that, hey, this thing is a little odd.
And so I can give a couple examples like words, like how people interact with

(53:35):
each other and the words that they use is a really big one, especially that
coach-athlete, parent-athlete engagement or involvement.
A big one is changes in relationships.
So, okay, let's say a kid on the sport, Susie and Anna are really good friends
and they do everything together, but then you come in the next week and they're
not together. They don't sit together.

(53:57):
That's weird. Put a little yellow flag in that. What about how they even walk together?
They come in super confident one day, they're talking, they're funny.
And then the next day, not really. Little yellow flag in that.
You actually brought this up even earlier about like, oh, the parents,
the coaches cut off observation.
I think there is a pro to that for sure. But I would put a little yellow flag in that for sure.

(54:20):
I think any environment in which parents aren't allowed to come watch their
kid in sport, yellow flag for sure.
That's really weird. coaches texting their athletes
especially under age yellow or
maybe even a red flag for me like that's odd there's so many little things like
that where i hear things see things anything like that and i just put a little

(54:41):
yellow flag in that and it's really all about the little things because eventually
you'll have it like and maybe enough yellow flags come together and you're like okay okay,
this is not an optimal environment.
Interesting. So it's really just keeping those tabs and not waiting until things

(55:01):
are at the complete extreme before you're reacting.
So again, to that point of being proactive and just being aware of what's happening
before it gets to a critical point.
100%. And I think they come up anywhere at any time.
And if you don't have your little yellow flags legs or your tab
ready to keep open like you might miss a lot of important things sure

(55:24):
and then and i mean that's really important because again as
we've said it's it's not always about just their performance on the field that
matters it's it's all those factors off the field and you know the the parents
driving them and creating that environment that really allows them to feel like
okay i can just focus on my game when i get there 100 interesting well that

(55:45):
ties really well into to,
you know, our next point with Simon here, we briefly touched on it earlier,
but the correlation between physical health and mental health.
And, you know, I think there's probably a lot of misconceptions in anything
to do with mental health and mental performance, where you're almost expected
to be psychologists almost, you know what I mean?

(56:05):
So Simon, you know, tell us a little bit about the correlation of that and really
debunking that myth around that, you know, anyone who works and mental performance
almost needs to have a psychology degree to understand like that's.
Yeah, so to be a certified mental performance consultant, you don't have to
be a psychologist. You have to have a degree within psychology.

(56:26):
So I have my degrees in sports psychology, my master's, and my PhD,
and my undergrad is in psychology.
So I've been 10 years of training within psychology, but I'm not a psychologist
because there are differences between the two.
And the difference between psychologists,
what they do, like a counseling psychologist, for instance, and certified mental consultants,

(56:46):
is that if we look at athletes who are like mentally healthy
we can support them if we have athletes who are like struggling a
little bit but aren't actually like dealing with like mental illness we
can support them as well we can promote mental health we just
can't diagnose and treat mental illness so that
is like a clear distinction between what we can do and what we can't do those
are like the main main differences between like our roles and those roles of

(57:09):
psychologists counselors social workers am i am i missing anyone medical doctors
who have of psychology training psychiatrists i think that's pretty much all the nick volleys yeah,
you're like how many things yeah no you got it so when we when we talk about like physical,
health and mental health like there is a correlation there in a sense that like

(57:32):
as we take care of ourselves and we we move we get that physical activity we
engage in sport whether it's participating in sport or whether it's just like
engaging in physical activity and And that can,
in terms of broad term, physical activity, because it just basically means movement.
And how much we get, it varies from person to person, and age,
gender, culture, so many different factors, like, influence that.

(57:55):
But really, there is a clear calculation here that we see that,
like, physical activity is good for our mental health.
And there's actually some research coming out, and I'm not an expert in this
area, so, like, I'm going to, like.
Pointed out with a double check and like don't
take mid face value but there is actually some research coming out

(58:17):
that in terms of like treating individuals have
poor mental health or supporting individuals mental illness
not all of them so i want to make this
very clear like physical activity isn't a cure for
everything but physical activity can support individuals
and be an effective treatment strategy for individuals with
certain types of mental illness or poor mental health and just

(58:40):
to like pause there it's like as simple as getting outside every
day right like and not just sticking yourself
in in your room and and actually getting some fresh
air which which does all sorts of things to the body like
what do you say sunshine a bit of movement like
we like we all have desk jobs right so
like we know the feeling of like when you've been when you wake up

(59:01):
in the morning and you're like i have a deadline and then you sit at your desk
for like 10 hours where basically all you do is get
up to go to the bathroom and come back that's the only movement you get and maybe
get a bite to eat if you don't forget it doesn't feel great and
when you can like break up that same amount of work into like
smaller chunks with i get 10 minute walks in the
sun and sit outside and like take breaks and whatnot it just has a different

(59:22):
impact on our bodies and so like it's it's a good point that i want to highlight
here as well this idea it's not just physical activity is good for mental health
it's physical inactivity or like sedentary behavior so the amount of sitting
we do there's actually more and more research coming out around.
The amount of sitting the amount of sedentary behaviors we engage in on a daily

(59:42):
basis actually has a detrimental effect on our mental health and also our physical health.
I think the best example for everybody during this was COVID,
you know, and when we were all stuck inside, we couldn't go,
you know, to malls as we couldn't go.
And I think everyone's time indoors increased because there were so many barriers.

(01:00:02):
You couldn't go to parks, you couldn't. And I think we saw globally,
everyone's mental health deteriorated. Oh, yeah.
Global depression and anxiety increased significantly, actually.
There's some good research on it with some of my work in physical health for
mental health charities.
We're paired with the University of Toronto, and there's been some staggering,
quite large increases in global depression and anxiety since COVID.

(01:00:27):
Definitely went on the rise due to that reason, for sure.
100%. I mean, I personally was diagnosed with depression during COVID,
you know, and I gained a lot of weight.
I gained 18 pounds over COVID again, because I wasn't outside as much,
which meant I was closer to the fridge and the cupboards a lot more.
So I was snapping a lot and eating away my feelings.

(01:00:47):
And, you know, so for me, it was all very real.
And that's when I really understood I'd always knew that, you know,
mental health was important, but I didn't actually have have to address it until COVID really happened.
And, you know, family struggles are happening, personal insomnia got even worse
because I'm on Zoom calls all day and night.
And, you know, the screen time really like, I'd say almost octupled.

(01:01:11):
Like I went from like, you know, one Zoom call a week to like every day you're
doing four or five Zoom calls.
And that had a negative effect on my mental health, which again,
correlated to me gaining a lot of weight, not getting as much sleep,
struggling with even just...
The simplest way I could put it is I lost my funness. You know what I mean?
Like where you're like very lighthearted. When you go even in an office setting,

(01:01:34):
you're making jokes. You're talking about those funny things that happen.
I got very serious during COVID and I wasn't able to just be more relaxed because
I was so hyper-focused on everything.
Like what are people thinking of me? You know, and it had a negative effect
until I sought out therapy.
And it's ironic that therapy, one of the first things that they talked about

(01:01:57):
when I started kind of laying it all out, everything that had happened,
and they're like, you're not sleeping enough.
You're not eating the right things. You're eating a lot, but you're not eating
the right things because it's okay if you actually snack.
But if you're eating broccoli, celery, yada, yada, you're going to be okay rather
than chips and popcorn and yada, yada.
So it was sleep, diet.

(01:02:19):
And as you just mentioned, how often are you going outside just for a walk or whatever?
And then there was even the, can you get a standing desk? If you're going to
be at your desk all day, can you get a standing desk?
So, and for me, I got to experience all of those layers of, you know,
what does my mental health do to my physical health?
Yeah. I think the opposite of that is actually also true in terms of high performance athletes.

(01:02:46):
Sometimes too much involvement in sport and physical activity can be detrimental
to your wellbeing in terms of what we talked about already, isolating yourself,
not having other components of your life.
Like I was the opposite spectrum that you were at Marvin.
Like I, when I had my peak depression, I was training my maximum out,

(01:03:08):
you know, I was training 40, 50 hours a week, didn't do anything else.
And I reached my rock bottom there.
And because all I wanted to do was lie down and do nothing. And I couldn't,
I didn't feel like I could.
So there's definitely sweet spot somewhere in the middle of our, of our stories for sure.
Definitely. I mean, and this next one is ironic because obviously your job is

(01:03:31):
to support other people with their mental performance and their mental health.
And in every single line of work, there's potential for burnout and exhaustion.
So, you know, Nicole and Simon, I'll start with Simon, you know,
how do you deal with that burnout?
And sometimes we said it's not even just the physically having to work four
to six hours or whatever.

(01:03:52):
It's the leading up to the the work
you know so how how do you deal with that yeah in your specifically
in your line of work i laugh because i think
the amount of times and like nicole and i oh yeah sit down together to kind
of talk about this topic like our line of work like working in sports so it's
not just it doesn't just impact us as npcs but it's just working in sport with

(01:04:13):
a variety of different teams means your schedule is very like irregular and
unpredictable and so like i'll have days where But I have like two hours of work that day,
like direct time with athletes face-to-face and teams.
That's not a lot of time. But like one is at 7 a.m., one's at 8 p.m.
And now the rest of the day, I'm sitting there going like, all right,
I'm thinking about the evening session. I'm planning. I'm practicing.

(01:04:36):
I'm doing this. I'm doing that. So I might only be technically like some people working today.
Day but i am like my mind is racing for
that 12 hours and thinking and planning and organizing and
not doing other things because i need to be thinking about this stuff and so
in terms of like burnout and like wearing myself out like i need to very much
working on like not doing those like 9 10 p.m calls anymore because that's just

(01:04:58):
like unsustainable but also the other piece is just like if i have a three-hour
time slot i don't actually have to do anything i should go and do
something else like that's it i'm done for three hours
i'm gonna go take the dog for a nice long walk i'm gonna go hang out with friends
i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do that whatever it might be it doesn't have to
be anything extravagant to be i'm gonna watch tv but i'm gonna watch tv without

(01:05:19):
thinking about work and then okay i have a session an hour now it's like go
mode so it's just about setting those boundaries and switching off when i can switch off.
Anything to add, Nicole? Yeah, I think I echo everything Simon just said as well.
And for me, it's my phone, like not doom scrolling.
Although Simon and I have good conversations about doom scrolling too and minimizing that.

(01:05:42):
But in terms of this past Easter long weekend, I actually had three full days
off and I was jazzed. I was like, oh my gosh, this is like three days off.
I haven't had in months. This is sick.
And then you forget that coaches and athletes have your phone number.
And so then it's like, okay, I have three days off, but I've been getting calls

(01:06:03):
and messages and someone called me at 1030 at night one night and I was like,
oh my God, do I not answer this?
And it's setting boundaries for me really, which is really hard for me to do.
Really hard because you want to, I think we're all air quote,
people pleasers. Like you want to make people feel better. You want them to be happy.
You want to feel good. You know, like we're givers. We feel that empathy.

(01:06:26):
You want to help. And sometimes it's just being a little bit selfish sometimes.
I am going to make myself feel better by saying no to this.
It's not no to you. It's no to this.
And for me, it's just exercising boundaries, which sometimes I still fail out. I failed out last night.
But it's just trying to exercise it still daily, thinking about them,

(01:06:50):
which is really hard to do for sure. Yeah.
100% I really struggled with this sorry Simon
I struggled with this in my last role honestly like you
know and ticketing for the Halifax Wanderers on top of
doing the DI work like and this is this is a
self-reflection this isn't a criticism of the role or anything it was my own
inability to create those boundaries so that when I was getting you know 40

(01:07:14):
50 emails a day especially leading up to the game day when everyone starts to
think about hey I need tickets for the game hey what What are the costs?
What is their group tickets? It's yada, yada.
And, you know, I'm getting them at all hours a day. And because of the nature
of ticketing, everyone has a cell phone number and their email signature.
And some people don't understand the boundaries of work to life.

(01:07:35):
So the people see the number, they call me at 8 p.m. on a Friday evening because
to them, that's when it's relevant.
I'm thinking about it now. So I'm going to call Marvin now, you know,
and I get these phone numbers that are unknown numbers.
So to me, it could be a friend. It could be anybody and I'm answering it and
people, Hey, Marvin, I need tickets.
And I wouldn't have the boundary to be like, Hey, email me and I'll get back to it tomorrow morning.

(01:07:59):
But it was this own internal want to sell out every single game.
You know? So I'm like, if I don't sell this person right now,
the nature of people buying tickets is if you don't get, they might decide to do something else.
So I would answer their question. I would help them with the ticket purchase,
but then I enabled them. So the next time they need a ticket,
they would do the same thing.

(01:08:19):
They'd be like, well, he answered my call last time. So I'm going to call him.
So, you know, I put this own pressure on myself to answer every phone call,
every email, try to get my inbox to zero before I go to bed.
Because if I didn't, the next day would be at 200.
That's so relatable. If I see that little stupid, even one, I'm like,
got to get rid of it. Like for no good reason whatsoever.

(01:08:40):
I so relate to that. So it's it's the boundaries are definitely great to have
both external with, you know, whether it's co workers or clients or athletes,
but it's also internal to be like, sure, I could do this now.
But is it in my best interest to do it right now, rather than to set the expectation
that listen, email me, and I'll get to it.

(01:09:02):
And sure, I might get to it after those 60 people email me before you called.
But that is what's fair. And that's what's fair to me.
And making sure that I'm able to do it. to continue to do this role for many
years and many days in a healthy way. So...
Definitely relate with the boundaries. And it's something that,
like I said, I struggle with, but something I think we're all working towards

(01:09:23):
getting better. I think it's good that we're taught it.
And I say we, and I loop myself and Nicole into this.
And the reason I say that it's important that Nicole and I like talking about
this is because a lot of our sessions with the teams we work with,
we talk about this specific topic about switching up and not overdoing and all this kind of stuff.
And because we talk about this day in and day out, people assume that like,
well, you've got it all figured out.

(01:09:44):
And like, please, I wish I could say that. this is
ongoing work this is ongoing work for myself
that every single day if I don't create a schedule and set
boundaries and at those off times where I'm unavailable and
all that kind of stuff I might be looking at my phone at 6am replying
to an email I might be at my desk at 11pm replying to an email and it's only

(01:10:06):
when I have that consistent schedule that I put the effort in ahead of time
that I'm making sure I'm protecting my mental health and all these kinds of
things but I just want to highlight that But if anyone here struggles with this stuff, we all do.
Even people who are quote-unquote experts in this field also struggle with these things.
That's a really great point, Simon. And it's something that's lost a lot,

(01:10:28):
especially among the youth.
They see their role models, they're the tigers of the world.
And they're like, yo, that guy's got it figured out.
He's winning PGA Tours. He's got the Nike deal.
He's got the car deal. He's got really hot wife, yada, yada.
And they don't realize that behind closed doors, he's struggling maybe worse
than any of us because of the spotlight that he has and the amount of followings

(01:10:52):
and the pressures from his brand,
from his team, from his own internal pressure, which is why they succeed so much.
So it's really important to just understand that even our role models and our
heroes, the Tiger Woods and the Obamas, it doesn't matter what field they're in.
We all struggle with our own things and we're all trying to get better at dealing

(01:11:14):
with our mental health and just that balance of it all. Yep.
So, the last point I want to get into is, Nicole, you told me of this Team Unbreakable
that was really interesting.
And you elaborate a little bit on Team Unbreakable. For sure.
I always smile when I hear that, the name, because every time I tell Simon about

(01:11:39):
it, he'll say Team Unbearable.
And it just like always, it always just gives me a good giggle.
But yeah, Team Unbreakable is a youth mental health charity that I do some work
for in terms of outreach, but also content creation and management. And so it's a program.
It's based out of Toronto, but we are expanding into other provinces.

(01:12:00):
And it's focused on the reciprocal relationship between mental health and physical health.
It was designed and it's evidence-based strategies.
And it was evaluated by the Mental Health and Physical Activity Research Center
at the University of Toronto. and our modules, we have content modules and it's

(01:12:20):
divided into physical health modules and mental health modules.
And so the physical health modules are all about like how to train,
how to run, how to fuel, how to energize, how to take cramps and setbacks.
And then every week you would learn a new physical health module,
but at the same time you would learn a mental health module and the mental health

(01:12:41):
modules are just basic, you know, things like goal setting or finding what your motivation is,
or building a community through running.
And so each week you would do Team Unbreakable and you would pair a mental health
with a physical health module. It's an eight-week program.
And at the same time, you do about what we call a couch to 5K.
And at the end of your eight weeks of your training and program,

(01:13:03):
you run a 5K as a community together. You put on a little run.
It's super fun. It's super engaging, but it's really all about putting youth
back in the driver's seat of their life and teaching them some better ways to
gain confidence and have fun and connect with their community.
It's all self-taught.

(01:13:23):
It's put in through communities or schools. So you do need a teacher or a community leader to lead it.
You don't need to be a mental health practitioner or a gym teacher or anything like that.
All the content it is there evaluated and created for you. And it's quite a

(01:13:44):
fun program to get involved with.
Thank you. That sounds like a great initiative and hopefully comes to Atlantic
Canada as well, because it's a great, great initiative.
One of the things, because this is in relation to a lot of coaches,
and I want to bring this all back and kind of tie it in a bow for coaches who are listening.

(01:14:05):
So we've talked a lot about the correlation between mental health and physical health.
We've talked about the accountability piece around the community and creating
a safe environment for both coaches, parents, refs, officials,
you name it, to create that real safe sport environment.
And we've talked about making sure that we're taking care of ourselves,
you know, regardless of what work we're in.

(01:14:26):
And coaches, a lot of times it's a side gig or you're doing it on top of your job.
And, you know, it's important to create those boundaries. But for coaches specifically,
Simon, what responsibilities do they have to defer from the role of the parents
in ensuring that safe environment that we've talked about in depth? Wow, big question.

(01:14:49):
What responsibilities do coaches have that differ from parents?
And it's really just this idea of creating an environment that is,
depending on the age group, like depending on the folks of the program,
it might be more performance-based.
It might be more like just engagement-based. like it depends what the the motivations
behind the programs but just making sure that whatever motivation is whether
it's we're trying to become the next olympians or whether we're trying to like,

(01:15:12):
get as many people into sport as possible whatever your motivation is that program
it's making sure it's done in like a safe and inclusive and accessible and like
friendly way that doesn't doesn't exclude people and welcomes welcome to people
like that would be like my I guess,
one-liner to kind of explain that in that sense. Love that. And Nicole?

(01:15:35):
I think Simon always does it just with a good answer.
For coaches, it's really, it comes down to like, sometimes to your own morals,
ethics and values, right?
Like really evaluate why you're there and why you want to be there and what
you're going to give or take yourself from the sporting environment.

(01:15:59):
Like think about the youth, practice a little extra empathy.
I always, you know, we always say that joke about your friends are the people
that you pick and your family isn't. Well, I use that same analogy sometimes for coaches, right?
Like you're, you're, when you're a parent, you don't, I mean,
not yet. We don't pick our kids. You have the kid essentially.

(01:16:19):
But when you're a coach, you know, sometimes you get to pick your team and you
get to, you know, go into the environment and that you get to create.
And so taking that and having
fun with it but being safe at the same time right
you have that power there is a power dynamic and
relationship between coach and athlete the same as parent and

(01:16:40):
athlete the same as mpc and athlete and so it's just realizing that you have
that power there is a strong power dynamic and i remember marvin we talked about
this a while ago like i had that athlete who I asked whose thoughts are the
most important after a game and the options were.
Yours or your parents. And he surprised me again, there's a secret option C

(01:17:04):
that we didn't talk about.
And option C was my coaches thoughts are the most important.
And I was like, wow, like that's how much power some coaches have.
And wouldn't it be great if you could use that power positively, right?
You got kids out there thinking that your thoughts are more important than their
own and their parents. Like that's crazy.

(01:17:26):
Right. But just like acknowledging that, Whether you think you have it or not,
conscious or unconscious, yeah, kids, think the world of you.
And they love going to sport, hopefully.
So just acknowledge that sometimes.
Definitely. I love that, Nicole. And honestly, anybody who knows me has heard this line many times.
But quoting the classic Spider-Man, with great power comes great responsibility.

(01:17:53):
So I think that's a great way of summarizing the responsibility we have as coaches.
And for my own example, it was also sometimes stepping away.
One of the first teams I coached after that U5 to U10 group that I had that
I talked about before was girls, girls, U13, no U14 team.
And after a couple of weeks of awkward conversations,

(01:18:15):
hearing the kids talk about having crushes on me and periods and things that
I was not experienced as an 18 year old teenager myself, I removed myself.
I said, I am not the right person to coach this team.
And I recommend that you either hire a female or somebody who's a parent who
understands this age group.
And ultimately, that was the best thing that I could have done was to actually walk away.

(01:18:38):
So sometimes that is what you have to do. If you're not the right person, find somebody who is.
And sometimes it's working in tandem with them or just letting them lead because
good leaders know when to follow as well.
So thank you, Nicole and Simon. This has been incredible. And I think there's
one piece, too, that I want Simon to touch on, because in a world of podcasts

(01:19:00):
and social media and everything,
there's a lot of people who claim to be experts in fields that they actually
have done no education, formal education to become those self-proclaimed experts
that they speak about so often.
So for those people who are giving advice on mental health and whatnot,
who are not as educated as you two are, Simon, what would you say to avoid? void.

(01:19:24):
What would I say to people seeking out support and who to reach out to?
Yeah, well, basically, it's like the people not to go to, you know,
the people who don't have... If you're looking for mental performance support
specifically, I would always recommend if you're in Canada, go to the Canadian
Sports Psychology Association.
There's a directory and you can see people listed in your province,

(01:19:44):
in your area, in your region who have the training. That, for me, is the first step.
There are psychologists who are duly trained.
They can be psychologists and an mpc and that's great as
well so it depends what you're looking for if you're looking
for like specific like mental health support then maybe start
with psychologists and you can like go on to like websites and
like search for people and their specialties and you can like

(01:20:06):
what you're looking for but if it's more mental performance support you're
looking for you know that go to a canadian sports psychology association
and and look through the directory there where you live
that makes a lot of sense and then for the coaches too is
there any sort of education offered through possibly
nccp or any other sources yes so there's
there's two two kind of streams that i think of one is we reach

(01:20:27):
out to our colleague allison like if you want to learn more
about coach resources like she is fantastic and loves
supporting coaches and has all the resources and the
other thing that i'll plug is native incentive for mental health and
sport recently created a workshop trilogy
specifically for coaches on mental health and it
is amazing i had the honor and privilege of

(01:20:48):
being a learning facilitator for it i take no credit for the creation of
it all i did was deliver it and it is incredible and
huge shout out to jen who created it and the ccma just for delivering it like
organizing this whole project and running it and yeah so go to the canadian
center for mental health sport and you can find more information on those free

(01:21:08):
workshops there amazing amazing and you've You've given lots of tidbits throughout.
But is there any closing statements, any just simple piece of advice for coaches?
Coaches are givers. I think, like many of us who work in sport, care about giving.
And so we need to recognize when giving becomes too much giving.
And we need to, like, if we don't look after ourselves, don't,

(01:21:31):
like, protect our own well-being and our own mental health, we can't look after others.
The metaphor that comes to mind is when you're in an airplane and you see the
security video, if you ever pay attention to them, they'd also put on masks
before you put on someone else's mask.
And the idea is just that, like, if you can't look after yourself, if you're struggling.
Point that you can't really function you're not going to be able to like

(01:21:51):
inspire others to want to look after themselves so you need to look after yourself
first in order to be able to look after others love that i can't fill from an
empty cup as they say and nicole i think where we kind of started at the beginning
like let the kids be kids i think is just like all i really want to to drive home,
if you're, if your son,

(01:22:13):
daughter, whoever, brother, sister,
anybody, if they go to their place of sport and you don't see them smile once, think about it for sure.
Yeah. It's yeah. Thank you. It's a yellow flag for sure. Yeah.
100%. Thank you guys. I really appreciate you joining.
There's lots of great information that I'll be sharing with not just my team

(01:22:37):
and other coaches that I know,
but anybody listening to share it, share it to those in your whether there's
parents that you think maybe need to listen to this, whether there's other coaches,
there's athletes who maybe really need to listen to this.
Because even though the podcast is coaches idea, this is for everyone in sport.
So please get the message out there. And if you enjoyed the podcast,
please give us five stars.

(01:22:58):
And ultimately, thanks, Nicole and Simon for joining me on this episode of coaches idea podcast.
Until next time, keep those ideas in mind.
Thank you so much. Thanks.
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