July 27, 2024 • 29 mins
Welcome to the Common Home TV podcast, a new series from Common Home TV where we explore topics important to the emerging inclusive Church. Many of these podcasts are also available as videos on our website, so please check them out at Common Home TV. This podcast is a space for meaningful conversation and insights, where we discover healthy ways to relate to God, ourselves, and each other. Join us as we journey together towards a more compassionate and interconnected world.
In our inaugural episode, we are honoured to speak with Felix Corley, a distinguished religious rights activist, journalist, and editor at Forum 18, an organisation dedicated to documenting and advocating for religious freedom in Central Asia, Russia, Russian-occupied Ukraine, government-held Ukraine, Belarus, and the South Caucasus particularly Azerbaijan. With decades of experience in reporting on religious persecution and freedom, Felix has an in-depth understanding of the challenges faced by religious communities, particularly in countries with oppressive regimes. His work has been instrumental in bringing international attention to issues of religious freedom and human rights violations.
We hope you enjoy our conversation with Felix as we explore the vital topic of religious freedom, exploring its importance and the current state of affairs in Ukraine and Russia.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:29):
With Felix Colley, a religious rights activist, journalist, and editor at Forum18.
We hope you enjoy. Felix, welcome to Common Home TV.
Thank you for inviting us to speak on your program. Well, to begin with,
Forum18 News Service is a very interesting name.
Where did it come from, and can you tell us a little bit about the history and who you're related to?
Yes, it's named after Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights,
(00:54):
which covers the right to freedom of religion or believe
the right to have to hold a
religion or not to hold one rights that flow
from that being able to meet for worship to have books about religion and so
on so all those things flow from article 18 and so that's why we're called forum
18 and it was set up in norway about 25 years ago and we've been publishing
(01:18):
information on the areas that we know about.
We're not saying that the countries we cover, which are basically the former
Soviet countries, we're not saying they're the worst in the world in terms of
freedom of religion or belief.
It's just these are the countries that we know about.
And in many of them, although each country differs vastly in their approach
(01:39):
to freedom of religion or belief, in many of them, there are serious problems,
especially in Russia, Belarus, in Central Asia, and in, say,
Azerbaijan, and particularly we've covered since the Russian full-scale invasion
of Ukraine at the beginning of 2022,
we've had a lot of coverage on the areas of Ukraine that Russia occupies,
(02:02):
while also not neglecting to look at what's going on in government-held Ukraine.
Let's focus on Ukraine. Can you tell us a little bit about the religious makeup
of the country for those who aren't familiar with it?
Ukraine has always, since the Soviet period, been known to have been more religiously
devout than many other places, even during the Soviet period.
(02:24):
Ukraine, which people are really of a majority Orthodox background,
more than half the Russian Orthodox parishes during the Soviet period were in
Ukraine, even though the population is much smaller than Russia and in the other
parts of the then Soviet Union.
So it was a large it was a
(02:46):
pretty important area for the russian orthodox church
there are also a lot of protestant communities there baptists pentecostals and
other evangelical protestants they've always been very strong in ukraine there's
a greek catholic church in mainly in western ukraine but it's spread gradually
across the country as people migrate and move for work and so on.
(03:08):
That was banned under the Soviets.
The Soviets forced them into the Russian Orthodox Church and banned any independent
expression of Greek Catholic identity from 1946 under Stalin,
right through until the end of the 1980s.
And many Greek Catholic priests, bishops, ordinary believers went to jail for
(03:30):
their beliefs, their loyalty to the church.
There are also smaller numbers of Roman Catholics as well.
There are Muslims, Crimean Tatars and other Muslim communities within Ukraine.
So really, it's a very mixed heritage. And I would say that generally speaking,
(03:51):
relations between communities have been very good.
They've been inter-religious councils. There's also a Christian council where
the churches get together.
The one outlier in recent years has been the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under
the Moscow Patriarchate,
which has not been so keen on participating in such inter-religious and inter-Christian
(04:16):
events and conferences, let's say.
Partly because of the current Moscow Patriarchate's hostility to ecumenism,
they've really taken a turn against working with other Christian churches,
maybe on theological grounds.
(04:36):
They believe that non-Orthodox are heretical and so on.
So that has really come back. But also because of the affiliation,
the growing affiliation between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Putin regime,
which has meant that because Ukraine has been seen as hostile to Russia and
(04:58):
sharing Western values and so on,
Moscow Patriarchate has really withdrawn from any desire to do anything with
other Christian churches.
And the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate claims to have
distanced itself from the Moscow Patriarchate in the last year or so.
(05:21):
But people are questioning how sincere that is and are they just doing this on paper?
And even then, it has never really clarified its current relations with the
Moscow Patriarchate. So many people in Ukraine regard it as almost treacherous
and having dual loyalty and so on.
So that, you know, it is regarded with suspicion by the Ukrainian government
(05:45):
and that makes its life far more difficult.
And there are some clergy who are known to have been pro-Russian who have been
jailed for allegedly supporting or helping or facilitating the Russian invasion or justifying it.
And when the two Greek Catholic priests, who we'll speak about in a minute,
(06:07):
were freed in a prisoner exchange,
at the same time, three of their clergy who had been serving long sentences
were handed over to the Russians, possibly in exchange.
It's always very unclear the exact modalities of these exchanges.
But many people see the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate
(06:29):
as very much the church of the invaders.
And the ukrainian government really doesn't like them well discussing the religious
freedoms in ukraine we provide some examples of the other of course we'll speak
about the two redemptors that were were taken and imprisoned and at certain
points we didn't even know their whereabouts or,
(06:51):
their health but this isn't this doesn't exist in a vacuum there are other examples
of religious persecution can you provide shed some light on that yes i mean
in since 2014 when the russians unilaterally invaded crimea and illegally invaded crimea,
they've imposed all the controls that russia has on religious communities in crimea.
(07:14):
Many communities that the leaders fled. It's been very difficult for any community
apart from the Moscow Patriarchate to flourish in Crimea,
particularly Jehovah's Witnesses who are banned in Russia.
They were banned in Crimea as well, and many of them have been sent to prison from Crimea.
(07:35):
Crimea, all the Russian controls over religious practice, like where you can
hold services, the fact you have to give your full legal name in any publications,
any videos that you post online.
So that's meant a whole load of people have been fined for putting up a video
without putting their full name.
(07:56):
One of the Catholic priests was fined for not having the full name.
The you know the controls on literature
any religious materials that the russian
government declares illegal and extremist you
can be punished if those are found and they've gone through mosques looking
for books to to punish so there are many imams who've been punished for leading
(08:18):
friday prayers inside a worship building inside a mosque and they're punished
for conducting missionary activity even though all the people present are already
muslims so that's been going on in Crimea since 2014.
But ironically, the Greek Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church do still exist in Crimea.
(08:38):
The Russians forced the Greek Catholic Church to re-register as Catholics of the Byzantine Rite.
So there was no mention of Ukraine.
They had to cut ties with the church in Ukraine itself.
So the Catholics in Crimea are part of a Crimean pastorate that was the vatican
(09:01):
had to set up in the territory.
In the territory of ukraine that
russia has invaded since 2022 all the controls have been imposed there gradually
the russians have illegally claimed to have annexed them and they impose russian
(09:21):
law again this is all illegal under international human rights provisions,
In occupied territories, the occupying power is supposed to retain the laws
of the country that they've occupied.
But Russia is completely ignoring that. Anyone who is jailed in occupied territory
(09:44):
is, under the Geneva Convention,
supposed to serve any sentence in the occupied territory and not to be sent anywhere else.
Russia has sent Jehovah's Witness prisoners from Crimea and some Muslim prisoners
into Russia itself from Crimea. There are people from occupied Ukraine who have
(10:05):
been sent to prisons in Russia illegally.
At the moment, though, there are several people who are facing very serious
charges in Russian-occupied Ukraine, the territories that have recently been captured by Russia.
Father Feognost Bushkov of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which is linked to
(10:26):
the Moscow Patriarchate.
He was detained on 20th of June in Luhansk region.
That's very close to the Russian border in east of Ukraine.
He was someone who was very vocal on social media.
He spoke about Orthodox liturgy, history, you know, sometimes rather abstruse topics.
And he also commented on current events in the Orthodox Church and more broadly.
(10:50):
He disappeared and we tried to find out
from the local i found the local police tried to
get comments from the court where the local court
has ordered him held in pre-trial detention or not
i tried to reach the prison in lujan some main investigation prison to try and
find out is he facing criminal charges but they've already raided his home he'd
(11:13):
earlier been fined for his comments in the beginning of june you know they came
to his house with a search warrant took away his electronic equipment,
his computers and USB sticks and his phones.
They then summoned him for questioning. They also told him he had to register,
record himself on the military register.
(11:33):
He is 44 years old, and he's not in particularly good health.
And he's very worried, or he was already very worried about his mother,
who's in her early 80s, and he's the sole carer for her. So very critical situation for him.
And we just don't know what's happened to him.
(11:55):
We've tried and tried to get information, but Russian occupation officials are
not always very forthcoming or not usually very forthcoming.
There's another Ukrainian Orthodox church of the Moscow Patriarchate,
a priest, Father Konstantin Maximov.
He's 41 years old. He was, he's been detained for more than a year.
He's facing, he's on trial at the moment on charges of espionage,
(12:18):
which carry a really hefty sentence up to 10 years.
And he is coming up for his.
The end of his trial at the end of July, there are going to be the first,
Final arguments presented on
31st of July and his sentence is due to be handed down on 2nd of August.
(12:40):
So he could face a prison term 10, 12 years.
And if that is the case, he's likely to be shipped off to Russia to serve his
sentence in a Russian prison, which, as I mentioned earlier,
would be illegal under Geneva Conventions.
There's also reports of a
protestant from zaparisha region that sort of central
(13:00):
southern ukraine occupied territory she was at a prayer meeting in her home
in july 2023 and she made some comments and it seems the fsb the russian security
service and prosecutors got involved She was arrested.
She's in her early 50s. She was arrested at the beginning of this year.
(13:25):
The Russian occupation authorities announced the arrest at the time and said
that she too would be facing criminal trial on charge of public dissemination
of knowingly false information about the use of the armed forces of the Russian Federation.
Now, this is a charge which is often used in Russia itself against people who
(13:46):
oppose the war on religious grounds or on any other grounds on,
you know, for, you know, people who are horrified by basically by what the Russians are doing.
So, you know, officials refuse to discuss this sentence.
She's we believe she was given a seven year sentence.
We've tried as hard as we can to get to find officials who are ready to talk
(14:09):
to us. The Russian Control Investigative Committee told us we don't have the
authority to discuss any criminal cases by phone.
The local head of the Russian Regional Administration, who covers ethnic,
religious, and Cossack organizations, he had earlier spoken to us about Father
(14:29):
Konstantin Maximoff, the priest who is on trial.
He hasn't been answering his phone recently, so we just cannot find out where this woman is,
has she appealed against this apparent verdict of seven years in prison, what her situation is.
(14:51):
So that's been very difficult to find out.
It's possible that some of these people have been arrested and faced criminal
trials so that Russia has some hostages who they can exchange.
We know that that's happened in criminal cases in Russia, say with Karamurza
(15:11):
or some of the other political opposition people in Russia itself.
Is this happening in occupied areas of Ukraine so they can exchange them for
clergy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church who are loyal to Russia and who've been
jailed? We just don't know.
The whole business of prisoner exchanges is really shrouded in secrecy.
(15:37):
It's obviously a very delicate operation trying to get clergy and other religious
people out of Russian detention, get them on exchange lists and so on.
The Ukrainians do have a system for negotiating with the Russians,
but they've been very tight-lipped.
And, you know, with the two Greek Catholic priests who've recently come out,
(16:00):
again, the people were in the church itself and in the government were very
tight-lipped about any discussions on their exchange.
Yeah, that's a very good segue to talk about Father Ivan and Bohan,
two redemptors who were recently released from Russian detention after being
arrested in Ukraine on November 16, 2022. 22.
(16:23):
During their detention, there was times that their whereabouts were unknown,
leaving uncertainty about their well-being, as well as there were rumors of torture as well.
Could you discuss their ordeal and your reporting on the situation,
how we found out where they were, how they came to be free?
Yes, there have been various rumors over the years, but no hard information
about where they have been held until really rumors start to emerge earlier
(16:48):
this year that they were in the Horlivka,
Russian-controlled labor camp in Russian-occupied Donetsk region.
And then when the Russian human rights ombudsperson, so-called human rights
ombudsperson, although she doesn't do much for human rights,
she went to visit them in the beginning of May of this year.
(17:09):
And that's really the first time that there was really concrete proof that the
the two were together and that they were where they were being held.
Although the Russians didn't quite reveal it, it was pretty clear that that's where they were.
Even then, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, we spoke to people in the Donetsk
(17:31):
Exarchate of the Greek Catholic Church, and they were very, very cautious.
They wouldn't confirm where they were. Maybe they didn't know.
They didn't want to say anything that might jeopardize any possible exchange.
Change they but they did say that the fact that the
russian ombudsperson had spoken about them
was a sign of hope that you know
(17:53):
at least they're still alive because no one really knew anything we constantly
tried to talk to officials in the occupied territories to try and find out you
know where they were the criminal cases that they were believed to be facing
on you know they were accused used of storing explosives in their church and extremist literature.
(18:14):
They were from serving in Berdyansk on the south coast of harbouring,
you know, extremist literature and explosives and so on, which obviously the
church completely rejected.
You know, so, but we've really not been able to speak to them since they were
released in this dramatic exchange.
So we haven't been able to find out exactly how they were treated.
(18:36):
The diocese, the Exarchate, told us that they were really now in isolation and
only their relatives have access to them as they kind of recover.
I mean, this is a pretty terrible ordeal to have been held since November 2022.
There's 19 months and then suddenly to be freed, they were clearly taken to Belarus.
(18:59):
And with the other, there were 10 civilians who were released in total.
And they basically had to walk across the border from Belarus into neighboring Ukraine.
And then they were brought to Kiev airport where there was a big sort of welcoming party.
The apostolic nuncio was there and some of the bishops of the Greek Catholic
(19:20):
Church were there to welcome them.
Clearly, that was an emotional time. No one had seen them for 19 months.
No one had really had any reliable information about them for 19 months.
So, you know, it was really an emotional day for them, for their supporters
and relatives and for fellow clergy.
(19:40):
But really, you understand now why they might want to take time to recover, recuperate.
It's been an ordeal for them. And in fact,
looking at the video of the meeting at the airport, you can see that Father
Bogdan is still wearing the Russian prison uniform that he was issued with while
(20:04):
he was in Russian custody.
As he came out, you see him being given a rosary by one of the bishops there.
So, you know, very emotional scenes for people.
Speaking about Russian persecution, is there any persecution that you've documented
on the other side of the Russian National Church?
(20:24):
Yes, the Ukrainian government clearly does not like the Ukrainian Orthodox Church,
which is affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate.
It's probably the biggest Orthodox Church in Ukraine.
The rival Orthodox Church of Ukraine, which is under Constantinople,
which was established several years ago, many people in the Moscow Patriarchate
(20:49):
regard that as a political church.
It did have the backing of the then-Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, when it was set up.
The government clearly favours it. It did unite various Orthodox churches which
had rejected the control of the Moscow Patriarchate.
So it built on existing rival Orthodox communities, but it gave it a canonical
(21:14):
legitimacy by having the imprimatur of the Constantinople Patriarch.
So the Moscow Patriarchate's branch, Ukrainian Orthodox Church,
it has faced some discrimination. There have been battles over who controls
churches, church buildings, and parishes. Some of the clergy have been jailed.
(21:35):
They are investigating a number of them, including some who are known to be more pro-Ukrainian.
I mean, the church is really divided between those who have a residual loyalty
to the Moscow patriarch, but also.
Have our patriotic ukrainians and those
who are really advocates of russianness and
(21:58):
russian superiority or russian
spiritual superiority so it's
a very divided church and you know
the ones who are patriotic ukrainians they've
contributed to supporting the russian war effort
and they've been quite vocal in
(22:18):
that you know sending supplies to the front lines whether
you know things to to help the the forces and
offering spiritual support and they are
rather annoyed that people often regard them as traitors who have no rights
basically and there have been various political moves in parliament to try to
strip the moscow patriarchy in ukraine of any of the ukraine north thoughts
(22:42):
church under moscow patriarchy of any legal rights you know there have been various,
bills that have gone to parliament and i think the ukrainian government is really.
While it might in be in favor of such laws it's really thought this is too difficult it would just,
(23:02):
create too much opprobrium internationally that they've really stepped back
from it but But politicians keep trying to promote these laws,
which would effectively deprive the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of many of the
rights that it ought to have.
It's a genuine religious community and people within it have the right to freedom
(23:22):
of religion or belief like anyone else.
The other aspect of government-held Ukraine is the lack of any alternative to
compulsory military service. People who on grounds of conscience cannot serve in the armed forces.
Before the war, in peacetime, there were only people from 10 specific religious
(23:45):
communities who were allowed to opt for an alternative service.
It was not available to anyone.
It was only available to people within this defined group.
That was suspended under martial law. And when state of emergency was declared,
the government said that the constitutional rights to alternative service were suspended.
(24:09):
And there are many people, we found 24 conscientious objectors who faced criminal
prosecution since the war started.
There are many more who have been punished for evading military service.
Well, you know, because they're either they're afraid or they're,
you know, they just don't want to do it.
(24:30):
But, you know, we're just concentrating on the people who have conscientious
reasons and who have simultaneously said that they are prepared to do an alternative service.
They've repeatedly said, you know, we're not trying to evade our obligations
to serve the country, but we will not do so within the armed forces.
We will not swear the military oath. We will not take up weapons.
(24:53):
So if there's something that could be offered, which is within civilian structures
in hospitals or something like that, these people have said that they would do that.
So there's two people who are facing three-year jail terms.
The cases have gone to appeal, so they're not yet being jailed.
But there's one prisoner who is currently serving a three-year jail term.
(25:20):
So we're just waiting to hear what will happen on appeal.
But there's several more cases which are currently going through the courts.
Dimitra Zelensky, a Seventh-day Adventist, he's the one who is serving a three-year
jail term at the moment, and he's gone through all the appeals he possibly can.
(25:40):
And they're talking about taking it further, maybe to the European Court of
Human Rights. So it's a very difficult situation.
Trying to work out who has a conscientious objection to military service is
clearly a very difficult thing to establish.
But we would cover a case if people have stated their beliefs clearly,
(26:02):
why they oppose military service on grounds of conscience and have declared
that they are ready to do an alternative service.
Do you believe that there's sufficient evidence to charge either the Russian
or Ukrainian government with future war crimes under international law,
considering the protections afforded to places of worship by the Geneva Conventions
(26:23):
and additional protocols?
That is a legal question that is really beyond our competence.
It's also difficult. There are people who go around counting the numbers of
places of worship which have been destroyed in the war on the Ukrainian side.
It's always difficult in a war zone. I mean, I've been in a war zone,
(26:45):
and it's always difficult to know when bullets and shells are flying around.
Are these targeted attacks on, you know, can they see that this is a place of
worship, a church, a mosque, a synagogue, and they deliberately fire at it?
Or is this just unsmart bombs or unsmart people just loosing off weapons in
(27:11):
any direction? And these are just things that happen in war.
I mean, a lot of homes have been destroyed, a lot of hospitals.
We saw the attack on the Kiev hospital yesterday. yesterday,
and it appears that that was deliberately targeted.
It's a large facility. They must have known where it was, and it looks like
(27:32):
it was a targeted attack.
Have they deliberately targeted places of worship? You'd have to go back and
look at each particular instance.
So I think it's difficult in a war zone to know what is deliberate and what is not.
Well, we can't thank you enough. Your reporting surely will be record.
We'd like to invite our listeners to support your work so could you tell us
(27:52):
any ways that we can support forum 18,
yes people can look at our website forum18.org all
our reports are available free of charge on our website for everyone because
we want them to be read as widely as possible and they're read by journalists
human rights defenders diplomats foreign ministries intergovernmental organizations
(28:12):
the un human rights mechanisms the organization for security and cooperation
europe the council of Europe,
they have access to our reports and we know that many of them read them,
so people can follow that.
We're also on social media, Facebook, X, Twitter, and Telegram.
(28:57):
Music.
With Felix Colley, a religious rights activist, journalist, and editor at Forum18.
We hope you enjoy. Felix, welcome to Common Home TV.
Thank you for inviting us to speak on your program. Well, to begin with,
Forum18 News Service is a very interesting name.
Where did it come from, and can you tell us a little bit about the history and who you're related to?
Yes, it's named after Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights,
(00:54):
which covers the right to freedom of religion or believe
the right to have to hold a
religion or not to hold one rights that flow
from that being able to meet for worship to have books about religion and so
on so all those things flow from article 18 and so that's why we're called forum
18 and it was set up in norway about 25 years ago and we've been publishing
(01:18):
information on the areas that we know about.
We're not saying that the countries we cover, which are basically the former
Soviet countries, we're not saying they're the worst in the world in terms of
freedom of religion or belief.
It's just these are the countries that we know about.
And in many of them, although each country differs vastly in their approach
(01:39):
to freedom of religion or belief, in many of them, there are serious problems,
especially in Russia, Belarus, in Central Asia, and in, say,
Azerbaijan, and particularly we've covered since the Russian full-scale invasion
of Ukraine at the beginning of 2022,
we've had a lot of coverage on the areas of Ukraine that Russia occupies,
(02:02):
while also not neglecting to look at what's going on in government-held Ukraine.
Let's focus on Ukraine. Can you tell us a little bit about the religious makeup
of the country for those who aren't familiar with it?
Ukraine has always, since the Soviet period, been known to have been more religiously
devout than many other places, even during the Soviet period.
(02:24):
Ukraine, which people are really of a majority Orthodox background,
more than half the Russian Orthodox parishes during the Soviet period were in
Ukraine, even though the population is much smaller than Russia and in the other
parts of the then Soviet Union.
So it was a large it was a
(02:46):
pretty important area for the russian orthodox church
there are also a lot of protestant communities there baptists pentecostals and
other evangelical protestants they've always been very strong in ukraine there's
a greek catholic church in mainly in western ukraine but it's spread gradually
across the country as people migrate and move for work and so on.
(03:08):
That was banned under the Soviets.
The Soviets forced them into the Russian Orthodox Church and banned any independent
expression of Greek Catholic identity from 1946 under Stalin,
right through until the end of the 1980s.
And many Greek Catholic priests, bishops, ordinary believers went to jail for
(03:30):
their beliefs, their loyalty to the church.
There are also smaller numbers of Roman Catholics as well.
There are Muslims, Crimean Tatars and other Muslim communities within Ukraine.
So really, it's a very mixed heritage. And I would say that generally speaking,
(03:51):
relations between communities have been very good.
They've been inter-religious councils. There's also a Christian council where
the churches get together.
The one outlier in recent years has been the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under
the Moscow Patriarchate,
which has not been so keen on participating in such inter-religious and inter-Christian
(04:16):
events and conferences, let's say.
Partly because of the current Moscow Patriarchate's hostility to ecumenism,
they've really taken a turn against working with other Christian churches,
maybe on theological grounds.
(04:36):
They believe that non-Orthodox are heretical and so on.
So that has really come back. But also because of the affiliation,
the growing affiliation between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Putin regime,
which has meant that because Ukraine has been seen as hostile to Russia and
(04:58):
sharing Western values and so on,
Moscow Patriarchate has really withdrawn from any desire to do anything with
other Christian churches.
And the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate claims to have
distanced itself from the Moscow Patriarchate in the last year or so.
(05:21):
But people are questioning how sincere that is and are they just doing this on paper?
And even then, it has never really clarified its current relations with the
Moscow Patriarchate. So many people in Ukraine regard it as almost treacherous
and having dual loyalty and so on.
So that, you know, it is regarded with suspicion by the Ukrainian government
(05:45):
and that makes its life far more difficult.
And there are some clergy who are known to have been pro-Russian who have been
jailed for allegedly supporting or helping or facilitating the Russian invasion or justifying it.
And when the two Greek Catholic priests, who we'll speak about in a minute,
(06:07):
were freed in a prisoner exchange,
at the same time, three of their clergy who had been serving long sentences
were handed over to the Russians, possibly in exchange.
It's always very unclear the exact modalities of these exchanges.
But many people see the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate
(06:29):
as very much the church of the invaders.
And the ukrainian government really doesn't like them well discussing the religious
freedoms in ukraine we provide some examples of the other of course we'll speak
about the two redemptors that were were taken and imprisoned and at certain
points we didn't even know their whereabouts or,
(06:51):
their health but this isn't this doesn't exist in a vacuum there are other examples
of religious persecution can you provide shed some light on that yes i mean
in since 2014 when the russians unilaterally invaded crimea and illegally invaded crimea,
they've imposed all the controls that russia has on religious communities in crimea.
(07:14):
Many communities that the leaders fled. It's been very difficult for any community
apart from the Moscow Patriarchate to flourish in Crimea,
particularly Jehovah's Witnesses who are banned in Russia.
They were banned in Crimea as well, and many of them have been sent to prison from Crimea.
(07:35):
Crimea, all the Russian controls over religious practice, like where you can
hold services, the fact you have to give your full legal name in any publications,
any videos that you post online.
So that's meant a whole load of people have been fined for putting up a video
without putting their full name.
(07:56):
One of the Catholic priests was fined for not having the full name.
The you know the controls on literature
any religious materials that the russian
government declares illegal and extremist you
can be punished if those are found and they've gone through mosques looking
for books to to punish so there are many imams who've been punished for leading
(08:18):
friday prayers inside a worship building inside a mosque and they're punished
for conducting missionary activity even though all the people present are already
muslims so that's been going on in Crimea since 2014.
But ironically, the Greek Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church do still exist in Crimea.
(08:38):
The Russians forced the Greek Catholic Church to re-register as Catholics of the Byzantine Rite.
So there was no mention of Ukraine.
They had to cut ties with the church in Ukraine itself.
So the Catholics in Crimea are part of a Crimean pastorate that was the vatican
(09:01):
had to set up in the territory.
In the territory of ukraine that
russia has invaded since 2022 all the controls have been imposed there gradually
the russians have illegally claimed to have annexed them and they impose russian
(09:21):
law again this is all illegal under international human rights provisions,
In occupied territories, the occupying power is supposed to retain the laws
of the country that they've occupied.
But Russia is completely ignoring that. Anyone who is jailed in occupied territory
(09:44):
is, under the Geneva Convention,
supposed to serve any sentence in the occupied territory and not to be sent anywhere else.
Russia has sent Jehovah's Witness prisoners from Crimea and some Muslim prisoners
into Russia itself from Crimea. There are people from occupied Ukraine who have
(10:05):
been sent to prisons in Russia illegally.
At the moment, though, there are several people who are facing very serious
charges in Russian-occupied Ukraine, the territories that have recently been captured by Russia.
Father Feognost Bushkov of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which is linked to
(10:26):
the Moscow Patriarchate.
He was detained on 20th of June in Luhansk region.
That's very close to the Russian border in east of Ukraine.
He was someone who was very vocal on social media.
He spoke about Orthodox liturgy, history, you know, sometimes rather abstruse topics.
And he also commented on current events in the Orthodox Church and more broadly.
(10:50):
He disappeared and we tried to find out
from the local i found the local police tried to
get comments from the court where the local court
has ordered him held in pre-trial detention or not
i tried to reach the prison in lujan some main investigation prison to try and
find out is he facing criminal charges but they've already raided his home he'd
(11:13):
earlier been fined for his comments in the beginning of june you know they came
to his house with a search warrant took away his electronic equipment,
his computers and USB sticks and his phones.
They then summoned him for questioning. They also told him he had to register,
record himself on the military register.
(11:33):
He is 44 years old, and he's not in particularly good health.
And he's very worried, or he was already very worried about his mother,
who's in her early 80s, and he's the sole carer for her. So very critical situation for him.
And we just don't know what's happened to him.
(11:55):
We've tried and tried to get information, but Russian occupation officials are
not always very forthcoming or not usually very forthcoming.
There's another Ukrainian Orthodox church of the Moscow Patriarchate,
a priest, Father Konstantin Maximov.
He's 41 years old. He was, he's been detained for more than a year.
He's facing, he's on trial at the moment on charges of espionage,
(12:18):
which carry a really hefty sentence up to 10 years.
And he is coming up for his.
The end of his trial at the end of July, there are going to be the first,
Final arguments presented on
31st of July and his sentence is due to be handed down on 2nd of August.
(12:40):
So he could face a prison term 10, 12 years.
And if that is the case, he's likely to be shipped off to Russia to serve his
sentence in a Russian prison, which, as I mentioned earlier,
would be illegal under Geneva Conventions.
There's also reports of a
protestant from zaparisha region that sort of central
(13:00):
southern ukraine occupied territory she was at a prayer meeting in her home
in july 2023 and she made some comments and it seems the fsb the russian security
service and prosecutors got involved She was arrested.
She's in her early 50s. She was arrested at the beginning of this year.
(13:25):
The Russian occupation authorities announced the arrest at the time and said
that she too would be facing criminal trial on charge of public dissemination
of knowingly false information about the use of the armed forces of the Russian Federation.
Now, this is a charge which is often used in Russia itself against people who
(13:46):
oppose the war on religious grounds or on any other grounds on,
you know, for, you know, people who are horrified by basically by what the Russians are doing.
So, you know, officials refuse to discuss this sentence.
She's we believe she was given a seven year sentence.
We've tried as hard as we can to get to find officials who are ready to talk
(14:09):
to us. The Russian Control Investigative Committee told us we don't have the
authority to discuss any criminal cases by phone.
The local head of the Russian Regional Administration, who covers ethnic,
religious, and Cossack organizations, he had earlier spoken to us about Father
(14:29):
Konstantin Maximoff, the priest who is on trial.
He hasn't been answering his phone recently, so we just cannot find out where this woman is,
has she appealed against this apparent verdict of seven years in prison, what her situation is.
(14:51):
So that's been very difficult to find out.
It's possible that some of these people have been arrested and faced criminal
trials so that Russia has some hostages who they can exchange.
We know that that's happened in criminal cases in Russia, say with Karamurza
(15:11):
or some of the other political opposition people in Russia itself.
Is this happening in occupied areas of Ukraine so they can exchange them for
clergy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church who are loyal to Russia and who've been
jailed? We just don't know.
The whole business of prisoner exchanges is really shrouded in secrecy.
(15:37):
It's obviously a very delicate operation trying to get clergy and other religious
people out of Russian detention, get them on exchange lists and so on.
The Ukrainians do have a system for negotiating with the Russians,
but they've been very tight-lipped.
And, you know, with the two Greek Catholic priests who've recently come out,
(16:00):
again, the people were in the church itself and in the government were very
tight-lipped about any discussions on their exchange.
Yeah, that's a very good segue to talk about Father Ivan and Bohan,
two redemptors who were recently released from Russian detention after being
arrested in Ukraine on November 16, 2022. 22.
(16:23):
During their detention, there was times that their whereabouts were unknown,
leaving uncertainty about their well-being, as well as there were rumors of torture as well.
Could you discuss their ordeal and your reporting on the situation,
how we found out where they were, how they came to be free?
Yes, there have been various rumors over the years, but no hard information
about where they have been held until really rumors start to emerge earlier
(16:48):
this year that they were in the Horlivka,
Russian-controlled labor camp in Russian-occupied Donetsk region.
And then when the Russian human rights ombudsperson, so-called human rights
ombudsperson, although she doesn't do much for human rights,
she went to visit them in the beginning of May of this year.
(17:09):
And that's really the first time that there was really concrete proof that the
the two were together and that they were where they were being held.
Although the Russians didn't quite reveal it, it was pretty clear that that's where they were.
Even then, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, we spoke to people in the Donetsk
(17:31):
Exarchate of the Greek Catholic Church, and they were very, very cautious.
They wouldn't confirm where they were. Maybe they didn't know.
They didn't want to say anything that might jeopardize any possible exchange.
Change they but they did say that the fact that the
russian ombudsperson had spoken about them
was a sign of hope that you know
(17:53):
at least they're still alive because no one really knew anything we constantly
tried to talk to officials in the occupied territories to try and find out you
know where they were the criminal cases that they were believed to be facing
on you know they were accused used of storing explosives in their church and extremist literature.
(18:14):
They were from serving in Berdyansk on the south coast of harbouring,
you know, extremist literature and explosives and so on, which obviously the
church completely rejected.
You know, so, but we've really not been able to speak to them since they were
released in this dramatic exchange.
So we haven't been able to find out exactly how they were treated.
(18:36):
The diocese, the Exarchate, told us that they were really now in isolation and
only their relatives have access to them as they kind of recover.
I mean, this is a pretty terrible ordeal to have been held since November 2022.
There's 19 months and then suddenly to be freed, they were clearly taken to Belarus.
(18:59):
And with the other, there were 10 civilians who were released in total.
And they basically had to walk across the border from Belarus into neighboring Ukraine.
And then they were brought to Kiev airport where there was a big sort of welcoming party.
The apostolic nuncio was there and some of the bishops of the Greek Catholic
(19:20):
Church were there to welcome them.
Clearly, that was an emotional time. No one had seen them for 19 months.
No one had really had any reliable information about them for 19 months.
So, you know, it was really an emotional day for them, for their supporters
and relatives and for fellow clergy.
(19:40):
But really, you understand now why they might want to take time to recover, recuperate.
It's been an ordeal for them. And in fact,
looking at the video of the meeting at the airport, you can see that Father
Bogdan is still wearing the Russian prison uniform that he was issued with while
(20:04):
he was in Russian custody.
As he came out, you see him being given a rosary by one of the bishops there.
So, you know, very emotional scenes for people.
Speaking about Russian persecution, is there any persecution that you've documented
on the other side of the Russian National Church?
(20:24):
Yes, the Ukrainian government clearly does not like the Ukrainian Orthodox Church,
which is affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate.
It's probably the biggest Orthodox Church in Ukraine.
The rival Orthodox Church of Ukraine, which is under Constantinople,
which was established several years ago, many people in the Moscow Patriarchate
(20:49):
regard that as a political church.
It did have the backing of the then-Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, when it was set up.
The government clearly favours it. It did unite various Orthodox churches which
had rejected the control of the Moscow Patriarchate.
So it built on existing rival Orthodox communities, but it gave it a canonical
(21:14):
legitimacy by having the imprimatur of the Constantinople Patriarch.
So the Moscow Patriarchate's branch, Ukrainian Orthodox Church,
it has faced some discrimination. There have been battles over who controls
churches, church buildings, and parishes. Some of the clergy have been jailed.
(21:35):
They are investigating a number of them, including some who are known to be more pro-Ukrainian.
I mean, the church is really divided between those who have a residual loyalty
to the Moscow patriarch, but also.
Have our patriotic ukrainians and those
who are really advocates of russianness and
(21:58):
russian superiority or russian
spiritual superiority so it's
a very divided church and you know
the ones who are patriotic ukrainians they've
contributed to supporting the russian war effort
and they've been quite vocal in
(22:18):
that you know sending supplies to the front lines whether
you know things to to help the the forces and
offering spiritual support and they are
rather annoyed that people often regard them as traitors who have no rights
basically and there have been various political moves in parliament to try to
strip the moscow patriarchy in ukraine of any of the ukraine north thoughts
(22:42):
church under moscow patriarchy of any legal rights you know there have been various,
bills that have gone to parliament and i think the ukrainian government is really.
While it might in be in favor of such laws it's really thought this is too difficult it would just,
(23:02):
create too much opprobrium internationally that they've really stepped back
from it but But politicians keep trying to promote these laws,
which would effectively deprive the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of many of the
rights that it ought to have.
It's a genuine religious community and people within it have the right to freedom
(23:22):
of religion or belief like anyone else.
The other aspect of government-held Ukraine is the lack of any alternative to
compulsory military service. People who on grounds of conscience cannot serve in the armed forces.
Before the war, in peacetime, there were only people from 10 specific religious
(23:45):
communities who were allowed to opt for an alternative service.
It was not available to anyone.
It was only available to people within this defined group.
That was suspended under martial law. And when state of emergency was declared,
the government said that the constitutional rights to alternative service were suspended.
(24:09):
And there are many people, we found 24 conscientious objectors who faced criminal
prosecution since the war started.
There are many more who have been punished for evading military service.
Well, you know, because they're either they're afraid or they're,
you know, they just don't want to do it.
(24:30):
But, you know, we're just concentrating on the people who have conscientious
reasons and who have simultaneously said that they are prepared to do an alternative service.
They've repeatedly said, you know, we're not trying to evade our obligations
to serve the country, but we will not do so within the armed forces.
We will not swear the military oath. We will not take up weapons.
(24:53):
So if there's something that could be offered, which is within civilian structures
in hospitals or something like that, these people have said that they would do that.
So there's two people who are facing three-year jail terms.
The cases have gone to appeal, so they're not yet being jailed.
But there's one prisoner who is currently serving a three-year jail term.
(25:20):
So we're just waiting to hear what will happen on appeal.
But there's several more cases which are currently going through the courts.
Dimitra Zelensky, a Seventh-day Adventist, he's the one who is serving a three-year
jail term at the moment, and he's gone through all the appeals he possibly can.
(25:40):
And they're talking about taking it further, maybe to the European Court of
Human Rights. So it's a very difficult situation.
Trying to work out who has a conscientious objection to military service is
clearly a very difficult thing to establish.
But we would cover a case if people have stated their beliefs clearly,
(26:02):
why they oppose military service on grounds of conscience and have declared
that they are ready to do an alternative service.
Do you believe that there's sufficient evidence to charge either the Russian
or Ukrainian government with future war crimes under international law,
considering the protections afforded to places of worship by the Geneva Conventions
(26:23):
and additional protocols?
That is a legal question that is really beyond our competence.
It's also difficult. There are people who go around counting the numbers of
places of worship which have been destroyed in the war on the Ukrainian side.
It's always difficult in a war zone. I mean, I've been in a war zone,
(26:45):
and it's always difficult to know when bullets and shells are flying around.
Are these targeted attacks on, you know, can they see that this is a place of
worship, a church, a mosque, a synagogue, and they deliberately fire at it?
Or is this just unsmart bombs or unsmart people just loosing off weapons in
(27:11):
any direction? And these are just things that happen in war.
I mean, a lot of homes have been destroyed, a lot of hospitals.
We saw the attack on the Kiev hospital yesterday. yesterday,
and it appears that that was deliberately targeted.
It's a large facility. They must have known where it was, and it looks like
(27:32):
it was a targeted attack.
Have they deliberately targeted places of worship? You'd have to go back and
look at each particular instance.
So I think it's difficult in a war zone to know what is deliberate and what is not.
Well, we can't thank you enough. Your reporting surely will be record.
We'd like to invite our listeners to support your work so could you tell us
(27:52):
any ways that we can support forum 18,
yes people can look at our website forum18.org all
our reports are available free of charge on our website for everyone because
we want them to be read as widely as possible and they're read by journalists
human rights defenders diplomats foreign ministries intergovernmental organizations
(28:12):
the un human rights mechanisms the organization for security and cooperation
europe the council of Europe,
they have access to our reports and we know that many of them read them,
so people can follow that.
We're also on social media, Facebook, X, Twitter, and Telegram.
(28:57):
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