January 17, 2025 • 60 mins
In this episode of the 'Conversations with Your Chinese Auntie podcast, I talk with Anna Jinja, an adoptee from Seoul, Korea, who grew up in Iowa. Anna also hosts her own podcast focusing on adoption and foster care stories, and has recently published her debut novel, 'Adopting Grace'.
We discuss Anna's experiences with adoption, her journey towards self-acceptance, and the importance of community. The conversation also touches on the complexities of identity and belonging and the transformative power of art and storytelling.
Bio:
Anna Jinja Mather was adopted from Seoul, Korea, and grew up in Iowa. Her heart is filled with love for people and their stories. By sharing her adoption story and all that she is learning to help her navigate through personal and professional challenges, she hopes that this will lead us to believe, accept, and value the inherent worthiness of all people. She has dedicated her life to a number of nonprofit organizations and causes as a volunteer or employee, which has led to a myriad of unexpected opportunities and adventures – including stepping into the role of a radio producer and host at KHOI 89.1 FM.Anna's Website
Follow Anna on Instagram
Buy Adopting Grace
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to season three of Conversationswith your Chinese Auntie podcast, I am
your Chinese auntie Patricia Petersen.
Also known as YiYi.
Yi Yi is auntie in mylanguage in Mandarin.
(00:25):
In this podcast, we have conversationswith BIPOC folks about life.
They share wisdom, discuss theirexperience with different topics.
In this podcast, my goal is togive voice to People of Colour
and learn more about their lives.
(00:47):
. In today's episode.
I welcome Anna Jinja.
Anna was adopted from Seoul,Korea, and grew up in Iowa.
Ana also host the Anna Jinja show.
It is a weekly show that Anna talksto international adoptee who shared
(01:07):
their experience on adoption.
We dive more into that in the episode.
We also talk about Anna'sdebut novel, Adopting Grace.
It is now available on Amazon.
And.
I tell you it's such a great book.
So get it.
Because it's funny is thought provokingand I'm hoping there's a sequel.
(01:32):
I hope you enjoy today's episode.
Good morning, Anna.
Good morning.
Thank you for saying yesand coming to the podcast.
Yeah, I'm so happy.
I'm excited about this conversationand honored to be part of your podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you.
(01:54):
First question of the podcast,please introduce yourself,
whatever comes to mind.
Uh, if you'd like to share where youlive, your identities, what you do.
Yeah, well, my name is Anna Jinja, andI also host a podcast that features
adoption and foster care stories,and then I match them to musicians
and poets and the musicians andpoets learn their stories and write.
(02:17):
Songs and poems connected to stories.
And as we talked before our interview,we are both believers in community.
And so for me, I think that transformationhappens when you build community and
these creative connections that helpus think about our world and ourselves
and in different ways and the waysthat we are connected and those things
that we have in common and then thosethings that we don't have in common
(02:39):
that we can celebrate together.
So.
I'm like you, I believe incommunity and creating those also,
I want to have a friend group.
So that's why I decided to have a podcast.
These are going to be my friends.
I love that.
I absolutely love that.
Since we're on the topic of yourpodcast, I would love to hear
(03:03):
how you came up with the idea.
What is the hope for the podcast?
Well, that's a great question.
So I got my start because I workedfor a small non profit that worked
with people with disabilities.
And I had a young man that was placedin our organization who was really
interested in doing podcast work.
And he was an actor or he is an actor.
(03:24):
And so we went to the communityradio station and asked about
using their podcast equipment.
And Ursula Runeberg said, well, whydon't you do a podcast about, um, issues
and stories connected to disability?
And so we did that.
I was really nervous about it,but I remember in that first show,
again, having inexperience, I.
Booked 20 guests for an hour showso it basically was like hello.
(03:48):
Welcome to the show.
Goodbye next guest.
It was terrible Um, but I rememberdaniel, uh saying in the moment He said
anna do you mind if I go off script andI said absolutely not and he said so
for me I know my parents are listening.
I was diagnosed at six being autistic.
And I realized why we're doing thisprogram is that for my parents and for
(04:08):
myself, we don't, we're not alone anymore.
We're building communityand I don't feel alone.
And I almost did the ugly cry, butin also in that moment, I realized
the power of communication through apodcast and through radio broadcasting.
So then the pandemic hit.
And, uh, they asked, the station asked,like, who's not going to get COVID?
(04:29):
And they're like, Anna,she doesn't have a husband.
She doesn't have, youknow, a big workforce.
She's not going to catch COVID.
So I was one of five or so thatwere allowed in the studio.
Learn how to engineer and came upwith programming and I must have
mentioned at one time, you know,I'm returning to my home state.
I'm an adoptee adopted from Seoul,Korea through the international
(04:51):
whole adoption agency, and thenthese stories started to come to me.
And so for me, I had not wantedto talk about my adoption
story for nearly a decade.
47 years I did everything to avoid itBut as I was asking questions and guests
because I needed to fill time abouttheir adoption story I realized i'm
(05:11):
asking those same questions of myselfWhy did I not want to talk about it?
And so I named the an agenda show becauseit forces me to say my middle name Every
week because I never wanted to say it.
It was what the adoption agency designatedas my middle name So my adoptive parents
kept it and I would never ever say it.
And so every week I'm forced to say.
(05:34):
This is the Anna Jinja Show.
Do you know what Jinja means?
I don't.
Because, I'll tell you why.
So my mom told me it meant um,beautiful or wisdom in Korean.
And this was before Google.
So then, okay, I'm likealright, accept that.
(05:55):
And then if you Google it now, which Icould of course, so Google Jinja Korean
And it means slang for, huh, really?
And so I'm like, huh.
And then I met somebodywho has a dog named Jinja.
And I said, your dog's named Jinja.
Well, she was stationed in thePeace Corps in Jinja, Uganda.
(06:18):
So that's where she lived.
She met her future husband and it was aspecial place for her spelled J I N J A.
And so really part of this is likereclaiming and understanding what does
Jinja mean and what does it mean tome and what does it mean to others.
Yeah, it's so true, right?
Because it's very interesting because somepeople names are very important to them.
(06:43):
And then I also met people where a nameis just a name, you know, and I do quite
a bit of ancestral healing work withfor myself and with some clients too.
And most of my clients arewomen of color, Asian women.
And a good number of them is like,I'm going to reclaim my name.
(07:06):
I'm gonna figure out what it meansbecause it helps in my healing.
Yeah, that's huge.
I mean, that's such importantwork because as I do more and more
interviews, I realize like, youknow, again, for adoptees who were
adopted for me, I was born, um, youknow, and adopted at three months.
And so really I have no knowledgeof what happened to me and what.
(07:29):
Connections I have to my ancestors andhaven't been wanting to do that for a
long time But as I talk to people in thepodcast who talk about going home and
finding their biological Family and seeingtheir face in their aunts their biological
parents it's so meaningful and there'smust be something because you do that work
(07:50):
of being able to connect your name andyour story to your Origin to your roots.
It must be so incrediblyhealing It is healing.
I've listened to quite a fewepisodes of your podcast.
I especially love the one where Pete,your husband, uh, interviewed you.
You are so cute.
Thank you.
(08:11):
It's, it's very interesting becauseI would love to, before we dig
deeper into this, I would loveto hear your story growing up.
But before I do that, when I listened toyour podcast with different guests and
also where Pete interviewed you, it's.
My curiosity is, yougrew up in Iowa, right?
(08:35):
And you're the only Asian in yourfamily with siblings and stuff.
Was it obvious to youthat you didn't fit in?
Because then we go into the topicsof belonging and fitting in, right?
But when you said that you're seeingsomeone as you interview guests,
(08:55):
is that when they go back to theirroots and they see someone who fit,
you know, oh, we're the same color.
There's that sense of, oh, ah, hmm.
And that's kind of on the same trendwhere a lot of people of color are
now, in the last few years, talkingabout on the big screen, being able
(09:18):
to see an actor or an actress of thesame color as them to go, oh, wow.
You know, yeah, but for you,did you notice growing up?
Yes.
Well, and I always say to you, ifyou look at the family picture of my
adopted family, our Norwegian, um, partSwedish, I mean, there was no doubt
(09:43):
I would have to be a complete moron.
to not know that I was adopted.
Uh, I do tell the story of when I was atchurch once with my mom and my sister.
I was about 12 years old and thisolder lady said to my mom, you
know, Terry, that's my mom's name.
I've always wondered, did you havean affair with a Japanese man?
Is that how you got Anna?
(10:04):
And my sister and I are like there.
And so we were so stunned.
We just gave the true answer.
No, Anna was adopted.
My husband and I decided to, um, becauseI was told I couldn't have children
that I adopted, and then I was ableto have biological children of my own,
which is my sister and my brother,but fast forward during family events.
(10:25):
And when we recount that memory,we so wish that we would have said
to that lady, Yes, I had an affair,but Kurt, my dad doesn't know.
So if you could not tellhim, that would be great.
And so I think it'salways been pointing out.
I know for my sister, who is not adopted,who is a biological child of my family,
when we would go out to eat, a lot oftimes people would come up to and say,
(10:49):
Oh, so is she part of your family?
Meaning me like what,what, how did you get her?
How did she come to be?
And so the focus of attentionwould be on me and my sister
will say, you know, it was.
Awkward and she would resent it sometimesthat people were always coming to say
How did she get to be part of yourfamily or is she part of your family?
Is she an exchange student blah blahand for me it felt like that's why
(11:14):
I think I rejected my adoption storyBecause it was so obvious Every
single day that I wanted to fit in.
I was like the kid who listened toMadonna and Cindy Lipper Lopper.
And I just wanted to fit in.
And I remember one of the ways thatI would cope is that I would walk
to school was about a mile walk.
And I would wish so hard that I couldtransform into having blonde hair, blue
(11:37):
eyes, better clothing, this or that.
So I wouldn't have to go to school as me.
And.
I think how sad is that although lotsof kids go through that probably I know
that to be the fact, but for me it wasjust so hurtful for me to be me Sometimes
because I just didn't want people toask me like I didn't want them to come
(11:59):
up to me and go ching chong ching chongOr I didn't want them to call me Names
or to be able to ask me if I likedthis or that and I I just wanted to
eat a McDonald's burger I Go out to themall, listen to Madonna and hang out.
And, um, Now I'll say in all that to youthat you feed from that attention to you
(12:21):
in some way So it would I would stand outand people would ask me questions And if
I was feeling particularly sassy, I wouldhave answers to like, what are you like?
I'm a human being female I did youknow sarcastic ways to be able to
flip it back kind of thing, but at theheart of it is that I felt rejection.
(12:42):
I felt that I was going to be rejectedjust simply because of how I came
into this world and what I look like.
And so that's a long windedanswer to answer your question.
I definitely felt that growing up.
I'm so sorry that people calledyou names and that's just
ignorance, right?
(13:03):
And when you were growing up,Were there many Asians around you?
Well, that was the other interestingthing, just because Iowa had, you
know, a population, uh, an Asianpopulation, and the previous governor
was very welcoming of immigrants.
And that was something thatreally, um, stood out for Iowans.
(13:23):
Uh, and so my sister and, um, my, um,others, we would get invited to go to
learn, you know, You know Cambodiandancing or this or that and so again
because I was such a brat back then Iwas like I don't want to learn that.
I don't want to eat that I don't Iwouldn't even wear a mandarin collar
and so I'm like I'm not wearing thatand That was my own rejection of myself.
(13:48):
That was so I just remember so manymemories of people Inviting me to
sleepovers or for a meal and I was like,I'm not doing that Um, and now I think
back, I wish, I wish I hadn't done that.
I wish I would have been able tofind a way to be more gracious.
And I also forgive myself because Iwas just trying to navigate, trying to
(14:09):
just be, I'm doing air quotes, normal.
One of your episode, you talk about thistoo, as a teenager, we just want to fit
in, , And my situation is not the same asyours, but I immigrated from Singapore to
(14:33):
Canada, and at that time, I didn't know.
I was 19 when I came, but now that I'vedone more work on this, it's like, oh, I
was trying to fit in, but I went throughthe same things, like, I'm going to
dress like how Canadians,white people dress.
I'm going to try and cut my hair this way.
(14:54):
I'm going to.
You know, even the sunglasses I wear,all the hat that I wear, the bags that
I carry, I'm going to try and fit in.
And now that I'm older and hopefullywiser, and I talk to other Asian
friends who, you know, also immigratedfrom different countries, everybody
(15:16):
say the same thing is that no matterwhat you do, you still stand out.
You know, it's almost as if youstand out even more by trying to
fit in, and that realization, youdon't see it when you're younger.
You just want to, you just want todraw less attention to yourself.
(15:37):
So it completely makes senseto me why you did what you did.
Yeah, well, I mean, I did things likeI got a perm and with the pink rod.
And for those who remember the pinkrods, very thin and very curly and my
hair, you know, it looked terrible.
Uh, and so, but that wasmy way of fitting in.
(15:58):
And my sister got the perm and she, youknow, looked like Farrah Fawcett with
her little, And here I was having towear a baseball cap for three months
because it would never grow out.
And you, and you, and you talkedabout the sunglasses, you know, from
13 to 14, that summers, I would wearsunglasses to conceal the shape of
my eye eyes, which was so stupid.
(16:20):
Um, but I think again, it was.
all these things that I was like trying toDivert attention from how I was different
And then I would do things that wereextreme to make me feel like I was more
american by getting a pink rod perm WhichI mean, hello Dummy dummy dum you look
(16:40):
So not only do you not look american youlook like a complete dork that stuck her
finger in a light socket for three months
I think, I think you'retoo mean on yourself.
Oh, there were pictures.
I tried to like burn those pictures,but there are pictures of evidence
that it was not a good idea, Anna.
(17:02):
Okay, so you and I are the same age,and I often, Think to myself, oh my
god, I'm so glad that when we wereyounger, there was no social media.
Oh my gosh, 100 percent yes.
Like, it's so scary when I thinkback on those, like, photographic
moments that could have been posted.
(17:27):
I didn't do too many rebellious thingsbecause my mother was The staff sergeant,
she was very strict, but still I'mlike, I'm thinking, looking at the kids
nowadays, I'm like, Oh, I don't know,because it lives on the internet for them.
The evidence of stupidity is forever.
(17:48):
So I'm so glad that evidencehas been erased and not
possible to dig that back up.
So terrible.
When let's talk aboutyour childhood for a bit.
What's.
stood out to you, you know, when youlook back, being an adoptee, when you
(18:11):
look back, were there any moments thatstood out to you or you thought, Hmm,
wish I could have done that different.
Wish my family would havedone that differently.
Well, I think that my family did agood job of trying to like help me.
I mean, they were very open to, if youwant to find your biological family.
(18:32):
We are supportive of that, whichsometimes can be, um, not the case.
I think my parents tried to giveme resources to learn about Korea.
And it was me who rejected all of that.
So mom would give me, you know, thisKorean cultural book that had like, uh,
Korean stories and language and recipes.
And I, I just would not read it.
(18:52):
And I think, but I do think that asI talk to young people between the
ages of 17 and 20, who are adoptees.
If someone at our age, which I'm not goingto say, no, I will say, um, but in my
fifties now, I'm able to talk about thoseconversations and to be able to ask that.
And if I talk to somebody now in theirtwenties, the conversation is interesting
(19:16):
where I'm I talked to a young ladywho, um, has access and information
to her biological family and her momis fearful of her having increased
interactions with her biological family.
And I just gently asked her, so doyou think maybe that your adoptive
mom is afraid that you're goingto reject her and that she's going
to feel like she's not the mom?
(19:37):
And to flip that and to be ableto have conversations with someone
who's who's had the lived experienceand someone who is older, the
messaging comes in a different way.
It's more palatable to be able to hear it.
I didn't have that.
I did have my mom say repeatedly, I'dlike you to go to the whole picnics where
you can learn and see other adoptees.
(19:58):
And I just didn't do it.
So I regret that I was that stubborn.
And I don't think there was anythingthat my mom could have said or my dad or
anybody, um, but I wish that I would havegiven that an opportunity to be able to
say, let me just try it and see, will Ihave access to information about myself
that will actually help me heal and to bemy best self, my best version of myself?
(20:23):
Cause I think I was like a, a less thanversion of myself for this part, because I
refused to ask or, or Even talk about it.
I mean, to be honest, I don'tknow if I would be a guest, a
great guest on your podcast.
I would be like, no, I don't wantto talk about it because then that
means that it's emphasizing thosethings I'm afraid to ask or to have
(20:45):
a car, even to have a conversation.
And I love how you introduce thisby saying, it's just a conversation.
We're sitting down, we're having tea.
Um, but I wouldn't have done thatbecause I would have been so afraid
of like what you would ask me.
Now looking back, do youremember what you were afraid of?
(21:05):
I think I was afraid of rejecting myselfand being afraid to be able to say, you
are an adoptee who was born most likely inSeoul, Korea, um, and this is who you are.
You are not a blonde hair, blueeyed, Now, I refuse to take the
23andMe or any of those genetictests because in my false narrative,
(21:29):
my biological father is Italian.
So when I went to Italy, Iwas like, these are my people.
These are like my food, my fashion.
And so part of me felt like I had rootsin Italy and that seemed to be acceptable.
But what I find so interestingis that my roots in Korea.
were not acceptable to me.
(21:51):
And so when I think about racismor about, you know, all those, the
prejudice, all of that was directed to me.
Because what is it about methat says, I don't want to be
Korean, but I want to be Italian.
That, that is really, Deep question andwhy I was afraid to be able to interact
with anything that said you are KoreanAnd so I I need to embrace that and to
(22:17):
figure it out and it's still part ofthe journey I'm still trying to figure
that out My niece which is interestingmy daughter brother who's a biological
child of my parents, had twins.
What's interesting, my sister is abiological, um, child of my parents.
My brother's children though, onelooks like my sister and one looks
like me, oddly enough, even thoughboth of the parents are twins.
(22:42):
And this, uh, uh, young lady,the niece that looks like me was
being bullied for looking Asian.
And so she would say, I'm noteven Asian, I'm, I'm Irish.
And so that's why my shapeof my eyes are Irish.
And I asked her, I said, so isn'tit interesting that your eye shape
is okay if it's Irish at the, uh,uh, you know, if you're Irish.
(23:04):
Irish, but not okay.
If you are Korean orwhatever kind of thing.
And so those language in the way thatwe talk about that and the way we would
perceive what is good, beautiful and okay.
It's a, it's a, it's an interestingconversation because I had it
with myself and rejected myselfand hated on myself for that.
(23:24):
And how sad is that for me to hatea significant part of who I am?
It's um, so it's a learning, or I thinkwhen we talk about DEI work and people
don't want to do it and they reject it,it's because it's punitive because we
think you're wrong, you're saying thiswrong, you're prejudiced, you're racist.
But if you take it down tome, who is a person of color.
(23:46):
Who is like saying the same exact thingsthat someone we have identified as racist.
I'm saying those things about me.
Whoa.
Yeah.
And how much I often thinkhow much of that messaging
we picked up from society, you know, wepicked up from a teacher, from a mentor,
(24:09):
you know, and racism in the last, I wouldsay maybe 10 years is more talked about.
Right.
But you and I are the same age inthe seventies and the eighties.
Yeah.
It was really okay is that aboutwe're just gonna push it to the side,
or we're just going to ignore that.
(24:31):
someone said something racist, we're notgoing to acknowledge that it's being said.
So a lot of these messages, even Iso applaud you for even having that
recognition, that saying that to yourself,because I think in a sense of trying to
fit in, we all have these unconsciousbiases that we picked up somewhere.
(24:53):
And then now, as we're older,we're looking at it going, Hmm,
what was all that about, right?
I spent almost 20 years in Singapore ina Chinese culture, but when I came here,
because I tried to fit in, for about 15years, I pushed that culture to the side,
(25:15):
because the messaging that I receivedas a woman of color, your value is.
lower.
So I thought, oh, then by embracing theWestern culture, it will make me more
acceptable, my self worth will be higher.
But now looking back,that's not true, right?
So.
(25:36):
It's not true, but then it's reinforced,like you were saying in the beginning,
The importance of being able to see facesthat look like ours on the big screen
or in TV episodes or whatever it is.
Um, we did not havethat in the 70s and 80s.
And so, when you look at what is themodel of beauty, It is, it does not
look like you and me at that time.
(25:58):
Um, and so it's changing, but, orthere are some weird, you know, when
I started dating, there were someweird, um, ideas about Asian women.
And so I was like.
Yeah, that's not me, uh, and maybe itis or whatever kind of thing, but, uh,
no, thank you kind of thing becausesome very, very odd feelings and
(26:23):
thoughts about what does it mean to bean Asian female girlfriend or partner.
Yeah, the Asian fetishes.
Yes.
That's just yucky.
Bad.
Yeah, I don't like it's the samething for like a foot fetish.
I don't get it.
I mean, yuck.
But, and why is it?
So you could have those like by, orthose preferences, but I think when you
(26:46):
go and you like, have a preconceivednotion about what it is and expectations.
It has nothing to do with you gettingto know Anna and what are my likes and
dislikes and falling in love with me.
It is this idea of what you thinkI should be and it's like what
you've composed in your head andit has nothing to do with me.
(27:08):
100 percent because even you andI getting to know each other, I
can have all these assumptions butuntil I get to know you better.
I really don't know.
You know, I can assume thatby, by interacting with
you, I can make assumptions.
Oh, maybe Anna likes this.
Maybe Anna doesn't like this,but I really don't know.
(27:30):
You know, until I get to know youbetter and I often think the assumptions
that when we bring in the biases isthat we don't even give ourselves
and the other person a chance to bewho they are, so that we can truly be
vulnerable and learn about each other.
I love that vulnerable piece and it isthere's that vulnerability of like I'm
(27:53):
going to share this with you and I'mafraid that you're going to reject it and
say it's not good, it's not acceptable andthen it's going to go back and forth where
you get into that whole spiral of I'mnot good enough, I'm not worthy, I don't
deserve to be loved or here on this earth.
Yeah.
Have you been back to Korea?
(28:14):
Have you thought about going back?
That is such a good question and aninteresting one so I Have not and again,
so I would say i'm never going to korea.
That's not a place i'm interested Inthere are so many places in this world.
I want to see I think it's just now as i'mdoing the podcast and having conversation
and asking those questions that I refuseto That i'm open to going to Korea.
(28:39):
And, and, but I want to understand,and I want to be prepared for
going, because if I'm not, I feellike that could do more damage.
Um, if that makes sense, but maybe itdoesn't make any sense because it's
just an all an emotional responseto do I want to go now with the
answer where before it was like,no, I don't want to go there now.
It's like, maybe, maybeI do want to go there.
(29:03):
It makes sense to me.
And it's, uh, so I am curious if Iask you, what are your identities?
How would you name them?
Yeah, well, I would say,my name is Anna Jinja.
(29:24):
I am somebody who is compassionateand curious, and who wants to be
able to make a difference in thisworld, and to surrender to the world.
What am I supposed to do to this worldand to be able to listen to it and
to be, um, willing to follow that.
I was born in Korea.
So I am an Asian American transracialadoptee who grew up in Iowa.
(29:49):
So I am an Iowan.
Um, I am a, I am a wife,spouse, daughter, friend.
Um, I wish that I were a greatsinger and that I could be a rock
and roller, but I have a terriblevoice and nobody wants to hear it.
(30:10):
I wish that I had just three more inchesof height so I could like, Wear the
dresses that I want to the way thatI want to, uh, those are the things
that I wish, but I know those arethings that I, as much as I wish and
believe that I could be and do it, ifI believe it, it's not going to happen.
I'm not going to be able to everbe able to, uh, join American Idol.
(30:33):
Uh, Simon Kel will saythat, ain't it, get off.
Bye-bye
. I, I, I resonate with that.
Cannot sing, cannot dance.
Mm-hmm.
Just no.
People are like, sure you can dance.
I'm like, no.
We didn't even have adance, uh, at our wedding.
(30:54):
We're just like, my husbandand I looked at each other
going, no . I do love to dance.
I don't even care if I'm good.
So that, I'm like, I'mgoing to bust a move.
'cause I.
I just like to have fun.
Would you share how tall are you?
Oh, I'm so sorry.
How tall are you?
(31:14):
Oh, I'm like 5'4 Yeah,we are the same height.
Yeah.
I just want a couple more inches.
You know, I used to think that in like20 years ago, because buying pens was
always, you always had to alter them.
But now, But now they may.
uh, pens in the length for short people.
So I'm like, okay, this is good then.
(31:36):
Yes.
Well, I would wear heels all the time.
I mean, now I can't, cause there's likewhere I live has all these, um, brick
pavement, it's harder to walk in them.
But, um, in meetings, I used to loveto wear heels because, you know,
as someone who's smaller, I wantedto be able to project confidence.
And so one of the times I did that, Iwill say I, um, did my presentation great.
(31:59):
And then yeah.
the electric tape that washolding down the cable to the
projector, my heel got stuck in it.
So I went flying about four feetahead, maintained my balance, thank
you very much, but had to go backin that meeting and pull the heel
out and like limp out of the room.
And so there's something to besaid about embracing your height
(32:19):
and just wearing flats and notdoing something stupid like that.
But I do wish, and so if I were likethree or four inches taller, I would have
worn flats and not have had that happen.
Are you somebody that people, whenthey describe you, they would say,
Oh no, I would never guess thatAnna is 5'4 She feels like she's
(32:42):
like 5'7 There are some people whothey, they carry that big energy.
Well, thank you.
I'm going to remember that.
I mean, yes.
And then I don't wear those stupid heels.
I get caught in the cobblestoneor in the duct tape.
I've never gotten into hills becauseI inherited my mother's bunion.
(33:03):
Oh yeah.
Well, and they hurt regardless,even if you bunions are not like at
one point, you just get to a pointwhere you think you look great and
then you're like hobbling around.
And so there's like, what's the point?
You don't look cool.
You don't look sophisticated.
You look like you've got.
Something, you know, stuck up your bum.
(33:24):
Oh, I would love to talk aboutyour debut novel, Saving Grace.
Please, tell us a bit about it.
Well, it started, you know,because I wanted to process my
lived adoption experience in acouple of failed relationships.
And so I would write, I wasliving in England at the time.
(33:45):
I would write in the morning.
Um, and my partner at the time toldme that writing and creative endeavors
basically are self indulgent activity.
And it, You should only do it if itgenerates revenue And you have to be
good for it to generate revenue andyou're not good at it Now i'm not with
this partner anymore, obviously and sopart of the writing process though as I
(34:09):
surrounded myself with people in englandthat That said writing is a way to be
able to like contribute to the world.
Even if no one reads it It's okaybecause it's yours and you're creatively
expressing What is going on in your life?
And the, um, person said to me, insome ways too, that there have been
(34:29):
books or things that have been readthat have changed lives, that have like
made people pivot in a way to be ableto see the world in a different way.
And I said to, um, Claire and Kate,well, I've written this piece,
it's about 10, 000 words of crap.
And they're like, it's 10,000 words of your crap.
Crap embrace it and that was importantfor me because I think that just as we're
(34:51):
saying I rejected myself because I feltlike I Wasn't good enough because of the
way I looked I felt like I can't do thisI can't write a novel because i'm not
barbara kingsolver I'm, not you know thisor that and so I don't deserve to write
a novel But my podcast is all about thesecreative expressions and exchanges So
(35:12):
i'm somewhat of a hypocrite Uh, and so Icontinued to write it I finished it, got
to Iowa and met the publisher who agreedto publish the book and then tried to
delay the launch because I was afraid ofit coming out and said, can we delay it?
The publisher that, uh, told me no,and then come to find out he had stage
(35:32):
four pancreatic cancer and it wouldbe the last book that he published.
And so I couldn't say no, of course.
Um, and so it's out in the world andI've been trying to keep it a secret.
Not a very good secret becauseagain, it goes back to that root of
feeling rejection and feeling thatI'm not good enough and I don't
deserve my place in this world.
(35:55):
And so I, it's this weird balance oflike, I want to be able to share the
story because there are some, experiences.
Grace, um, talks to a womanwho talks about how she really
feels about her adopted childrenversus her biological children.
And I actually had an encounterwith a woman that was similar
to that and fictionalized it.
Um, but I remember hearing that for thefirst time, an adoptive parent saying
(36:19):
that she felt differently about herbiological children than her adopted
children, that she felt this fear.
Um And she was a fierce mama wolf ormama bear protective feeling towards
her biological children that she didn'tfeel towards her adopted children.
She knew as an adoptee, um,but still spoke this truth.
And for me, it just completelydisrupted my world about thinking
(36:41):
about Because you always hear, I loveyou just the same, and this or that.
And then for someone to speak thetruth like that, it was so disruptive,
so hurtful, but so refreshing.
Because when we speak the truth, soI've tried to reframe it in thinking,
yes, she may feel differently about heradopted children, but that doesn't mean
(37:05):
that she doesn't love her children.
Um, but when you hear a, a, Untruth ifsomeone's saying I love you just the
same and you know at some level it's notthe truth Then you're living within this
like weird kind of how do I process this?
and so the point is that I wanted to putthat in the book because if someone had
(37:29):
ever felt that to be able to Figure outa way to articulate that truth in a way.
That was safe And adopting grace is sothere's some funny bits in there too
and light hearted You Because I feellike I don't want to like mm mm mm that
message in your face, you know And I'mmaking these gestures like punching
you in the face But but if we don'tdeliver those truths and then figure
(37:51):
out how do we talk to about them?
how do we process them and how do we comeback to a place of love and Understanding
and compassion and connection then we'regoing to continue just be having this
internal rage Of like knowing that'snot the truth and being pissed off all
the time and I don't want to be pissedoff Now sometimes anger does really
good like especially if I want to loseweight because I want to fit into my
(38:14):
jeans I'm like, yeah, i'm pissed off.
I'm gonna go work out.
Bam.
Bam.
Bam I'm gonna do a dance party andi'm gonna change that destruction.
Hopefully to being able to seefit into my pants properly, but
otherwise it turns into I hate myself.
I don't trust my parents.
I don't trust the people that I loveand we go through this world just like
(38:36):
Not being in our full potential of likeexperiencing joy and pain in a way.
That's meaningful Mm-hmm.
And I have the privilege of, uh,reading the, the final draft.
I think, and as I said to you before westarted recording, uh, I need a part two.
Mm-hmm.
(38:56):
Ms.
Anna, thank you.
I appreciate that so much.
I, I honestly don't know if I haveit in me because this one has been
such like, you know, a labor of.
You know, there's been such fear andanxiety my husband, you know, people
are very upset about this because youheard his interview He's very charming.
He's loving and compassionate He hasn'tread the book because I won't let
(39:18):
him because I'm because he's he it'sa compliment to him because he's so
You know, he's such a great writer.
I don't want to hear this or thatwhich he's not going to right but
but at the same time That fearis still in me that the previous
narrative of you're not good enough.
You shouldn't be writing is selfish thisor that Uh is I don't want that connected
(39:42):
to to p But oh my gosh, it's out becausehere I am talking on your podcast to
say Thank you for reading the book.
And you know, I'm going to betelling everybody about this book.
And I appreciate that.
I just won't tell youthat I'm telling people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and another thing is that it's thisweird thing again, about like, again,
(40:05):
the beginning of my story, we asked aboutmy childhood of rejecting myself and
trying to like, Not be seen but be seen.
I mean I was wearing, you know stufflike Madonna and this or that I wore
jeans that had acdc on them and peoplelike why do you have that because I
wanted people to notice I wanted themto notice what I wanted them to notice.
(40:26):
And with the book, I want you to beable to read it and to connect it
and say, do you have this experience?
Do you know what it feels like to be anadoptee, trying to navigate through this?
Or do you, have you been with a partnerwho's like rejected you for somebody else?
You know, those kinds of common things.
I want to be able to Connect, butthen I'm like, Ooh, but if you
(40:46):
say you hate it, I'll get like,
You know, I, I'm just gonna, I'mgoing to share my experience.
So I make pottery.
I'm a hobby potter.
So, you know, so I make like ceramics.
That's all you're trying to say.
Oh, no.
Yeah.
Oh, there we go.
Oh, that's a good one.
Yeah.
And but I do understand that.
(41:09):
Oh my God, I'm putting mybaby out into the world.
But then it's funny because youtalk about the podcast too, because
that's also a creative process.
Right.
And I, my approach to it, whether it'swith ceramic pieces or whether it's the
podcast is, I truly believe that thepeople who need it, the people who are
(41:31):
going to find it, listen to the podcastor buy a piece of my work, they are meant
to be, and it benefits them in some way.
And I'm going to say your book, theI'm not going to spoil it for people
who haven't read it, but the part aboutthe foam roller and Bailey, the whole
(41:53):
event of Emily threatening Bailey, Iwas laughing out loud in my living room.
And also the part about having apartner who doesn't embrace you
for who you are been dead on that.
So, Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(42:14):
A few more questions for you.
How are you doing?
Yeah, I'm doing great.
This is a great conversation.
You, your promise of like it beinga fun, easy, breezy conversation.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
You make me feel very comfortable.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I would love to talk about,because this has come up a
few times, sense of belonging.
(42:36):
What does it mean to you now?
Well, I think it's moreabout belonging to myself.
I think it's more about self acceptance.
That radical belief in compassionfor myself and that wherever I go,
um, that I can know that I belongand that I have a place in this
world and that it's not dependenton what other people think about me.
(43:00):
Now, that's not to say that, um, Idon't care about what people think,
because I just gave a whole thingabout why I won't share my book or
why I've tried to keep it a secret.
But, but I, but my, the wholething, a definition of belonging
is that do I belong here?
And I do.
And I, um, and that's what I wish forothers with the podcast and with the
(43:22):
book is that they know that they have aplace in this world for Daniel, who was
my cohost for, I am able Iowa that evenwith a diagnosis of being autistic, is
that that means that is a part of him,but he belongs because he is this amazing.
Human being that has something tocontribute to this world just by what he
(43:42):
asked and how he engages in the world.
And for those that don't feel likethey belong because I have done
things that I am sure that havemade people feel outside the circle.
And so it's that recognition too,that I have caused harm to others.
And what am I doing to make sure that I,um, forgive myself and then also engage
(44:03):
in the person that I've hurt to movethrough a path of reconciliation, to be
able to say, I am sorry I have hurt you.
What can I do to support youand help you on this journey?
Well, I love that.
What does community mean to you?
How does it look like to you?
You know, I describe myself as a gypsy.
(44:25):
Um, so I've never livedin a place for very long.
If you look at my work historyfor a number of reasons,
I've had a number of jobs.
And I feel like part of that is because I,I tell myself that because as an adoptee,
I feel like sometimes that I, I'm able toconnect, make strong connections and then
move on or like Mary Poppins a little bit.
(44:47):
I've compared myself to Mary Poppinsa little bit and there's a sadness to
that too because I feel like I don'tbelong to a community, one community.
So when I hear like other people, Iwas talking to the, uh, a young group
of students that are part of the AsianAmerican Pacific Islander student group.
And so I had given a presentation.
(45:08):
They were just like, I was cracking jokes.
I thought it was funny.
I was like, and then there wasnothing, there was not even a,
and I was like, Oh, I got out.
I was like, gosh, Ibombed those kids hate me.
And I got an email from onethat said, you were hilarious.
That was awesome.
I said, Oh my gosh, Ithought I bombed that kid.
Well, you know how Asians are.
(45:28):
We're very stoic.
And I remember thinking, I'm part ofyour group, but I'm not part of your
community, because I had, I had no clue.
And so sometimes when I see that,and like, there's like comedians
who talk about their culture andtheir families and this or that,
like, well, you know how we are.
And I'm like, Oh, I don't have that.
I don't feel like I alwaysfeel like I'm on that outside.
(45:51):
So for me, I also over invite people.
So for me, community means that youcan't come to the table no matter what.
And so if I ever see anybody leftout, I'm like, Hey, do you want to,
even if it's not my party, which myhusband's like, that's not your party.
But I'm like, Hey, you should cometo Maya's house, come to her party.
He's like, it's not your party.
I didn't want them to feel left out.
(46:12):
So for me community is like I'mgoing to invite you in because I
never want you to feel left out.
Uh, but also learning the rules thatyou can't invite people that have not
been invited and have not been in theaccount for food for this for that too.
Oh, yeah, but you know, I'm with you.
(46:33):
If I see somebody left out,they're going to be lonely.
Come on.
Let's go.
Let's try.
Yeah.
It gets you in trouble though.
So many times where it's awkward where I'mlike, Oh yeah, invite them to come along.
I'm like, we only have six chairs.
I'm like, Oh, they can have my chair.
I'll stand up.
Don't worry.
I'll eat my soup sitting up.
I can do it.
(46:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm, yeah, I'm good to say.
Ah, I'll just sit on the floor.
It's all good.
Yeah, yeah, me too.
I'm with ya.
Uh, um, favorite food?
What's your comfort food?
Oh my gosh.
Well, I love, um, pizza.
Ooh.
And I love pizza with,like, lots of stuff on it.
(47:16):
There's a place calledDewey's Pizza in Dayton, Ohio.
I love their pizza so much.
It's like got the perfect crust.
It's got like the sauce and the number oftoppings and the crispiness that I like.
So I do love pizza.
I, I'm slightly lactose intolerant.
So the cheese.
(47:39):
Oh yeah.
But you know, they have these greatthings that you can take these
lactose pills that you take before.
And so those work miracles.
I always forget to take them.
Yes.
What?
is something you wish people knowabout adoptees, whether it's from
your personal experience or theinterviews you've done on your podcast.
(48:03):
So I, what I want, especially forlike, as I have conversation with
adopted parents and those outsideis that I want people to know.
So for adoptees, for most ofus, our first chapters have been
completely ripped out of the book.
We don't know.
A lot of us don't have noidea about our origin stories.
And sometimes I found throughsome research, the stories have
(48:25):
been made up to be able to provideclosure and they are not the truth.
And so I think that, um, That what alot of people don't realize and that
whole concept about being grateful.
I was told that over and over again,that you should be grateful that you
were adopted, that you were chosen.
And I think it can be both, and I canbe sad and I can be mad and I can be
(48:49):
confused about not knowing my origin storyand not having any connection to that.
And I can be grateful that Ihave a place in this world, but
nobody asked biological children.
Like you must be so grateful that youwere born that you were in this family.
And so I just think the bothand of just understanding that
(49:09):
I don't have to be perfect.
It's not if this, then I canbe accepted that I should just
be accepted because I am here.
Uh, and that is what I want others toknow about adoption is that I don't
want to be grateful for everything.
I want to be able to be me.
Yeah, and I also think the, the wordgrateful, there's different meanings
(49:33):
attached to it like almost like guiltand shame attached to it when someone
says to me, you should be grateful.
And it's like, but you're not allowingme to feel what I need to feel.
Well said and I think there's atransactional part about being grateful.
So then you should be grateful.
(49:55):
So you've earned thisbank of like, yes, good.
And then when you dothat, it's a withdrawal.
So if I'm mad, that's a withdrawal here.
So then you're not this.
And then you, I'm going to beupset that I don't get my gap
dress and throw a temper tantrum.
Okay.
So, but you've got this.
And so then it comes down to like, Okay.
There's a bank deposit and withdrawalthing that's happening when it
(50:18):
comes to thinking about as atransactional relationship rather
than just being a relationship oflike give or take and understanding
that every person is complex.
Yeah.
What are you most lookingforward to in the future?
You know what I'm going to sayafter this interview, I'm looking
(50:39):
forward to visiting Korea.
I'm looking forward to being curiousand having the courage to be able to
figure out and be in a place whereI started my life and not avoid it.
That's beautiful.
Last question for you.
Well, maybe second last question.
(51:04):
What is one thing that youwish people know about you?
Oh, that's a good question.
Hmm.
Um,
I think that, uh, which I just hada discussion with my husband about
this, that I wish people knew that.
My intensity comes from a place of, andthe way that that ebbs and flows, that
(51:29):
intensity is, is a place of caring.
It's not a, it's not mebeing mad for the most part.
It is just me intensely tryingto figure out how do I interact
with the world or with you.
And that it's not, it doesn'tcome from a place of being upset.
(51:52):
I don't know if that makes sense, but.
Well, if I'm, if I hear it correctly,because I think oftentimes.
Especially for a woman, when we, um,expressing ourselves outside of what
(52:13):
society seems acceptable, then it'slike, oh, she must be having a bad day.
She must be angry.
Maybe she's hormonal.
You know, those things right so
wrong with intensity, as long asyou're still being kind and loving
(52:37):
and compassionate, because like yousaid just now, during one of the
during the interview is that we areall complex, we are all human beings.
Yeah, well, I was explaining toI was sharing an experience with
my husband and that I had to firesomebody once was my first firing.
(52:59):
And so we were with the HR person andshe said, You know, what I hate about
working with you is that you're so intensethat you're really funny and then you're
really intense and focused on work.
And so I never know whatAnna I'm going to get.
And you bring chocolate chip cookiesto work and that just makes me mad.
I was like, okay So why does it make youmad about the chocolate chip cookies?
(53:20):
because people can't be mad at youlike if you bring chocolate chip
cookies, but i'm mad because you'reLike I can't figure out what anna i'm
getting and i'll never forget thatconversation because I just think So
you want me to be one singular way?
all the time kind of thing whichcompletely Rejects like that.
(53:40):
I might be hangry.
I might be this or that kind of thingBut but it was such an interesting
conversation one because it was one of myfirst firings That I had to do and then
second that was the reason why she didn'twant to do her work or to work with me Is
because I was too intense and so I thinkeven though I was having to fire her.
She actually was firing me
(54:04):
Boy, that was complex.
Oh, I know.
And if you're out there and youknow who you are, I'm sorry.
I wish you well.
I hope you're doing well.
And I hope someone's baking you chocolatechip cookies and you're not mad about it.
Yeah, you know, and it's the,but it's the assumptions, right?
(54:26):
It's the ideals that we placeon people, the expectations
we place on people, right?
And I, I mean, besides doing this,You know, my work is as a therapist,
so I often see this, it's like, howmuch of Our stuff are we projecting
to others and then we are hopingthat they will behave in this way so
(54:48):
that it doesn't hurt our feelings.
Now, not that we don't takeresponsibility each of us take
responsibility for how we show up.
But if someone shows upand it kind of bothers me.
I often go.
What does that remind me of why is it.
You know, activating me right now, youknow, I don't think it's my responsibility
(55:12):
I take accountability that if you sayyou and I meet for coffee or something
and then you say something that I'mlike, Oh, I can't believe you say this.
I think it's my responsibility for oneto say, maybe text you later and goes hey
Anna you know when you said that just nowit didn't land right can we talk about it.
And then part two of that is okay.
(55:34):
When Anna said that it reminded me ofa situation I had with my older sister.
that I haven't healed yet.
So I need to take accountabilityfor healing that part of me.
And then I bring compassionbecause I'm like, nobody's perfect.
Why do I expect you to show up tobe perfect when I'm not perfect?
(55:56):
That's good stuff.
I can see why you're a good therapist.
Woo.
Thank you.
The gray hair helps.
You brought it home.
Last question for you.
How do you take care ofyourself and your heart?
Well, I love coffee, so I don't know ifthat takes care of my heart, but it does.
And I think for me, I'm a morning person.
(56:17):
As I said, I love those morning walkswith my dog and those quiet moments to
be able to listen to and to listen andto also ask for help and support of
how I can be and become my best self.
So how can I surrender?
To what I'm supposed tobe doing in this world.
And then those quiet moments with mydog, I'm, I'm just able to receive
(56:40):
and to give and a special way.
So if I don't have my morningwalk, it's important to have a dog
because he needs to do his businessand I need to do mine of just like
reoriented myself for the day.
Okay, we must name the dog Floyd.
What kind of dog?
Yeah.
That's right.
What kind of dog is Floyd?
He is a King Charles Cavalier Spaniel.
(57:02):
And he is, I love Floyd.
I know you have a dog as well.
And so those furry family membersbring such joy into our lives.
And I just, uh, so I recommendanyone who doesn't have allergies
and not afraid of dogs, get adog because you're a therapist.
Oh my gosh.
Absolutely.
They, they just are so.
Yeah.
Magnificently wonderful and how,and also if you have a dog and you
(57:26):
live in a new community, you talkabout belonging and community.
If you walk a dog that lookscute, people are going to stop
and say, Oh, look at your dog.
So cute.
Can I pet him?
And then you have a conversation.
So you talk about belongingcommunity, get a dog.
Mm hmm.
And I will say that, uh, get sowe don't have Children neither.
(57:47):
Uh, getting Bailey our dog,uh, healed a part of me about.
My relationship with my mother.
It was very interesting.
The first two years ofparenting Bailey, it was like,
(58:07):
Oh, I almost wanted to say thisto Bailey, which my mother would
have said I was like, Hmm, no.
Patience.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I feel like that's anothertime that we should talk because
I don't have children either.
Uh, and Floyd, I mean, probably that'swhy he's so important to me as well.
(58:29):
Um, but I think that also beingchildless and adoptee and our age.
I think the way that people perceivethose that don't have children has
been an interesting part of theconversation as an adoptee as well.
And that's probably a completelydifferent episode, but I would love
to explore that with you as wellbecause we have that in common.
(58:50):
Yes, I would love to have you back.
Well, thank you so much, Anna, forcoming on and sharing your story with us.
Yeah.
for this lovely conversation.
You're amazing.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode of the
conversations with your Chinese.
Auntie Podcast.
(59:12):
I really enjoyed myconversation with Anna.
Check out her book.
I will put links to Anna's podcast and.
Her book on the shownotes.
Please be good to yourself.
Be gentle with yourself and you allhave heard me say this before in the
(59:33):
times we're in, this is very important.
To build community, find community,find your people who can be there for
you and you can be there for them.
Take good care of yourself.
And if you are enjoying the show.
Please feel free to rate, subscribe,and leave a review wherever
(59:56):
you listen to your podcasts.
That helps me and that also help others tofind a show and I greatly appreciate it.
Also, you can go to my website andsign up for newsletter I send one
out maybe three or four times a year.
With free materials and updates.
My website is Patricia Petersen.cathat's PATRICIAPETERSEN.CA.
(01:00:27):
You can also follow me on Instagram.
Again, thank you so much for listening.
Have a great week and I'll see you soon.
Thank you for your support.
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to season three of Conversationswith your Chinese Auntie podcast, I am
your Chinese auntie Patricia Petersen.
Also known as YiYi.
Yi Yi is auntie in mylanguage in Mandarin.
(00:25):
In this podcast, we have conversationswith BIPOC folks about life.
They share wisdom, discuss theirexperience with different topics.
In this podcast, my goal is togive voice to People of Colour
and learn more about their lives.
(00:47):
. In today's episode.
I welcome Anna Jinja.
Anna was adopted from Seoul,Korea, and grew up in Iowa.
Ana also host the Anna Jinja show.
It is a weekly show that Anna talksto international adoptee who shared
(01:07):
their experience on adoption.
We dive more into that in the episode.
We also talk about Anna'sdebut novel, Adopting Grace.
It is now available on Amazon.
And.
I tell you it's such a great book.
So get it.
Because it's funny is thought provokingand I'm hoping there's a sequel.
(01:32):
I hope you enjoy today's episode.
Good morning, Anna.
Good morning.
Thank you for saying yesand coming to the podcast.
Yeah, I'm so happy.
I'm excited about this conversationand honored to be part of your podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you.
(01:54):
First question of the podcast,please introduce yourself,
whatever comes to mind.
Uh, if you'd like to share where youlive, your identities, what you do.
Yeah, well, my name is Anna Jinja, andI also host a podcast that features
adoption and foster care stories,and then I match them to musicians
and poets and the musicians andpoets learn their stories and write.
(02:17):
Songs and poems connected to stories.
And as we talked before our interview,we are both believers in community.
And so for me, I think that transformationhappens when you build community and
these creative connections that helpus think about our world and ourselves
and in different ways and the waysthat we are connected and those things
that we have in common and then thosethings that we don't have in common
(02:39):
that we can celebrate together.
So.
I'm like you, I believe incommunity and creating those also,
I want to have a friend group.
So that's why I decided to have a podcast.
These are going to be my friends.
I love that.
I absolutely love that.
Since we're on the topic of yourpodcast, I would love to hear
(03:03):
how you came up with the idea.
What is the hope for the podcast?
Well, that's a great question.
So I got my start because I workedfor a small non profit that worked
with people with disabilities.
And I had a young man that was placedin our organization who was really
interested in doing podcast work.
And he was an actor or he is an actor.
(03:24):
And so we went to the communityradio station and asked about
using their podcast equipment.
And Ursula Runeberg said, well, whydon't you do a podcast about, um, issues
and stories connected to disability?
And so we did that.
I was really nervous about it,but I remember in that first show,
again, having inexperience, I.
Booked 20 guests for an hour showso it basically was like hello.
(03:48):
Welcome to the show.
Goodbye next guest.
It was terrible Um, but I rememberdaniel, uh saying in the moment He said
anna do you mind if I go off script andI said absolutely not and he said so
for me I know my parents are listening.
I was diagnosed at six being autistic.
And I realized why we're doing thisprogram is that for my parents and for
(04:08):
myself, we don't, we're not alone anymore.
We're building communityand I don't feel alone.
And I almost did the ugly cry, butin also in that moment, I realized
the power of communication through apodcast and through radio broadcasting.
So then the pandemic hit.
And, uh, they asked, the station asked,like, who's not going to get COVID?
(04:29):
And they're like, Anna,she doesn't have a husband.
She doesn't have, youknow, a big workforce.
She's not going to catch COVID.
So I was one of five or so thatwere allowed in the studio.
Learn how to engineer and came upwith programming and I must have
mentioned at one time, you know,I'm returning to my home state.
I'm an adoptee adopted from Seoul,Korea through the international
(04:51):
whole adoption agency, and thenthese stories started to come to me.
And so for me, I had not wantedto talk about my adoption
story for nearly a decade.
47 years I did everything to avoid itBut as I was asking questions and guests
because I needed to fill time abouttheir adoption story I realized i'm
(05:11):
asking those same questions of myselfWhy did I not want to talk about it?
And so I named the an agenda show becauseit forces me to say my middle name Every
week because I never wanted to say it.
It was what the adoption agency designatedas my middle name So my adoptive parents
kept it and I would never ever say it.
And so every week I'm forced to say.
(05:34):
This is the Anna Jinja Show.
Do you know what Jinja means?
I don't.
Because, I'll tell you why.
So my mom told me it meant um,beautiful or wisdom in Korean.
And this was before Google.
So then, okay, I'm likealright, accept that.
(05:55):
And then if you Google it now, which Icould of course, so Google Jinja Korean
And it means slang for, huh, really?
And so I'm like, huh.
And then I met somebodywho has a dog named Jinja.
And I said, your dog's named Jinja.
Well, she was stationed in thePeace Corps in Jinja, Uganda.
(06:18):
So that's where she lived.
She met her future husband and it was aspecial place for her spelled J I N J A.
And so really part of this is likereclaiming and understanding what does
Jinja mean and what does it mean tome and what does it mean to others.
Yeah, it's so true, right?
Because it's very interesting because somepeople names are very important to them.
(06:43):
And then I also met people where a nameis just a name, you know, and I do quite
a bit of ancestral healing work withfor myself and with some clients too.
And most of my clients arewomen of color, Asian women.
And a good number of them is like,I'm going to reclaim my name.
(07:06):
I'm gonna figure out what it meansbecause it helps in my healing.
Yeah, that's huge.
I mean, that's such importantwork because as I do more and more
interviews, I realize like, youknow, again, for adoptees who were
adopted for me, I was born, um, youknow, and adopted at three months.
And so really I have no knowledgeof what happened to me and what.
(07:29):
Connections I have to my ancestors andhaven't been wanting to do that for a
long time But as I talk to people in thepodcast who talk about going home and
finding their biological Family and seeingtheir face in their aunts their biological
parents it's so meaningful and there'smust be something because you do that work
(07:50):
of being able to connect your name andyour story to your Origin to your roots.
It must be so incrediblyhealing It is healing.
I've listened to quite a fewepisodes of your podcast.
I especially love the one where Pete,your husband, uh, interviewed you.
You are so cute.
Thank you.
(08:11):
It's, it's very interesting becauseI would love to, before we dig
deeper into this, I would loveto hear your story growing up.
But before I do that, when I listened toyour podcast with different guests and
also where Pete interviewed you, it's.
My curiosity is, yougrew up in Iowa, right?
(08:35):
And you're the only Asian in yourfamily with siblings and stuff.
Was it obvious to youthat you didn't fit in?
Because then we go into the topicsof belonging and fitting in, right?
But when you said that you're seeingsomeone as you interview guests,
(08:55):
is that when they go back to theirroots and they see someone who fit,
you know, oh, we're the same color.
There's that sense of, oh, ah, hmm.
And that's kind of on the same trendwhere a lot of people of color are
now, in the last few years, talkingabout on the big screen, being able
(09:18):
to see an actor or an actress of thesame color as them to go, oh, wow.
You know, yeah, but for you,did you notice growing up?
Yes.
Well, and I always say to you, ifyou look at the family picture of my
adopted family, our Norwegian, um, partSwedish, I mean, there was no doubt
(09:43):
I would have to be a complete moron.
to not know that I was adopted.
Uh, I do tell the story of when I was atchurch once with my mom and my sister.
I was about 12 years old and thisolder lady said to my mom, you
know, Terry, that's my mom's name.
I've always wondered, did you havean affair with a Japanese man?
Is that how you got Anna?
(10:04):
And my sister and I are like there.
And so we were so stunned.
We just gave the true answer.
No, Anna was adopted.
My husband and I decided to, um, becauseI was told I couldn't have children
that I adopted, and then I was ableto have biological children of my own,
which is my sister and my brother,but fast forward during family events.
(10:25):
And when we recount that memory,we so wish that we would have said
to that lady, Yes, I had an affair,but Kurt, my dad doesn't know.
So if you could not tellhim, that would be great.
And so I think it'salways been pointing out.
I know for my sister, who is not adopted,who is a biological child of my family,
when we would go out to eat, a lot oftimes people would come up to and say,
(10:49):
Oh, so is she part of your family?
Meaning me like what,what, how did you get her?
How did she come to be?
And so the focus of attentionwould be on me and my sister
will say, you know, it was.
Awkward and she would resent it sometimesthat people were always coming to say
How did she get to be part of yourfamily or is she part of your family?
Is she an exchange student blah blahand for me it felt like that's why
(11:14):
I think I rejected my adoption storyBecause it was so obvious Every
single day that I wanted to fit in.
I was like the kid who listened toMadonna and Cindy Lipper Lopper.
And I just wanted to fit in.
And I remember one of the ways thatI would cope is that I would walk
to school was about a mile walk.
And I would wish so hard that I couldtransform into having blonde hair, blue
(11:37):
eyes, better clothing, this or that.
So I wouldn't have to go to school as me.
And.
I think how sad is that although lotsof kids go through that probably I know
that to be the fact, but for me it wasjust so hurtful for me to be me Sometimes
because I just didn't want people toask me like I didn't want them to come
(11:59):
up to me and go ching chong ching chongOr I didn't want them to call me Names
or to be able to ask me if I likedthis or that and I I just wanted to
eat a McDonald's burger I Go out to themall, listen to Madonna and hang out.
And, um, Now I'll say in all that to youthat you feed from that attention to you
(12:21):
in some way So it would I would stand outand people would ask me questions And if
I was feeling particularly sassy, I wouldhave answers to like, what are you like?
I'm a human being female I did youknow sarcastic ways to be able to
flip it back kind of thing, but at theheart of it is that I felt rejection.
(12:42):
I felt that I was going to be rejectedjust simply because of how I came
into this world and what I look like.
And so that's a long windedanswer to answer your question.
I definitely felt that growing up.
I'm so sorry that people calledyou names and that's just
ignorance, right?
(13:03):
And when you were growing up,Were there many Asians around you?
Well, that was the other interestingthing, just because Iowa had, you
know, a population, uh, an Asianpopulation, and the previous governor
was very welcoming of immigrants.
And that was something thatreally, um, stood out for Iowans.
(13:23):
Uh, and so my sister and, um, my, um,others, we would get invited to go to
learn, you know, You know Cambodiandancing or this or that and so again
because I was such a brat back then Iwas like I don't want to learn that.
I don't want to eat that I don't Iwouldn't even wear a mandarin collar
and so I'm like I'm not wearing thatand That was my own rejection of myself.
(13:48):
That was so I just remember so manymemories of people Inviting me to
sleepovers or for a meal and I was like,I'm not doing that Um, and now I think
back, I wish, I wish I hadn't done that.
I wish I would have been able tofind a way to be more gracious.
And I also forgive myself because Iwas just trying to navigate, trying to
(14:09):
just be, I'm doing air quotes, normal.
One of your episode, you talk about thistoo, as a teenager, we just want to fit
in, , And my situation is not the same asyours, but I immigrated from Singapore to
(14:33):
Canada, and at that time, I didn't know.
I was 19 when I came, but now that I'vedone more work on this, it's like, oh, I
was trying to fit in, but I went throughthe same things, like, I'm going to
dress like how Canadians,white people dress.
I'm going to try and cut my hair this way.
(14:54):
I'm going to.
You know, even the sunglasses I wear,all the hat that I wear, the bags that
I carry, I'm going to try and fit in.
And now that I'm older and hopefullywiser, and I talk to other Asian
friends who, you know, also immigratedfrom different countries, everybody
(15:16):
say the same thing is that no matterwhat you do, you still stand out.
You know, it's almost as if youstand out even more by trying to
fit in, and that realization, youdon't see it when you're younger.
You just want to, you just want todraw less attention to yourself.
(15:37):
So it completely makes senseto me why you did what you did.
Yeah, well, I mean, I did things likeI got a perm and with the pink rod.
And for those who remember the pinkrods, very thin and very curly and my
hair, you know, it looked terrible.
Uh, and so, but that wasmy way of fitting in.
(15:58):
And my sister got the perm and she, youknow, looked like Farrah Fawcett with
her little, And here I was having towear a baseball cap for three months
because it would never grow out.
And you, and you, and you talkedabout the sunglasses, you know, from
13 to 14, that summers, I would wearsunglasses to conceal the shape of
my eye eyes, which was so stupid.
(16:20):
Um, but I think again, it was.
all these things that I was like trying toDivert attention from how I was different
And then I would do things that wereextreme to make me feel like I was more
american by getting a pink rod perm WhichI mean, hello Dummy dummy dum you look
(16:40):
So not only do you not look american youlook like a complete dork that stuck her
finger in a light socket for three months
I think, I think you'retoo mean on yourself.
Oh, there were pictures.
I tried to like burn those pictures,but there are pictures of evidence
that it was not a good idea, Anna.
(17:02):
Okay, so you and I are the same age,and I often, Think to myself, oh my
god, I'm so glad that when we wereyounger, there was no social media.
Oh my gosh, 100 percent yes.
Like, it's so scary when I thinkback on those, like, photographic
moments that could have been posted.
(17:27):
I didn't do too many rebellious thingsbecause my mother was The staff sergeant,
she was very strict, but still I'mlike, I'm thinking, looking at the kids
nowadays, I'm like, Oh, I don't know,because it lives on the internet for them.
The evidence of stupidity is forever.
(17:48):
So I'm so glad that evidencehas been erased and not
possible to dig that back up.
So terrible.
When let's talk aboutyour childhood for a bit.
What's.
stood out to you, you know, when youlook back, being an adoptee, when you
(18:11):
look back, were there any moments thatstood out to you or you thought, Hmm,
wish I could have done that different.
Wish my family would havedone that differently.
Well, I think that my family did agood job of trying to like help me.
I mean, they were very open to, if youwant to find your biological family.
(18:32):
We are supportive of that, whichsometimes can be, um, not the case.
I think my parents tried to giveme resources to learn about Korea.
And it was me who rejected all of that.
So mom would give me, you know, thisKorean cultural book that had like, uh,
Korean stories and language and recipes.
And I, I just would not read it.
(18:52):
And I think, but I do think that asI talk to young people between the
ages of 17 and 20, who are adoptees.
If someone at our age, which I'm not goingto say, no, I will say, um, but in my
fifties now, I'm able to talk about thoseconversations and to be able to ask that.
And if I talk to somebody now in theirtwenties, the conversation is interesting
(19:16):
where I'm I talked to a young ladywho, um, has access and information
to her biological family and her momis fearful of her having increased
interactions with her biological family.
And I just gently asked her, so doyou think maybe that your adoptive
mom is afraid that you're goingto reject her and that she's going
to feel like she's not the mom?
(19:37):
And to flip that and to be ableto have conversations with someone
who's who's had the lived experienceand someone who is older, the
messaging comes in a different way.
It's more palatable to be able to hear it.
I didn't have that.
I did have my mom say repeatedly, I'dlike you to go to the whole picnics where
you can learn and see other adoptees.
(19:58):
And I just didn't do it.
So I regret that I was that stubborn.
And I don't think there was anythingthat my mom could have said or my dad or
anybody, um, but I wish that I would havegiven that an opportunity to be able to
say, let me just try it and see, will Ihave access to information about myself
that will actually help me heal and to bemy best self, my best version of myself?
(20:23):
Cause I think I was like a, a less thanversion of myself for this part, because I
refused to ask or, or Even talk about it.
I mean, to be honest, I don'tknow if I would be a guest, a
great guest on your podcast.
I would be like, no, I don't wantto talk about it because then that
means that it's emphasizing thosethings I'm afraid to ask or to have
(20:45):
a car, even to have a conversation.
And I love how you introduce thisby saying, it's just a conversation.
We're sitting down, we're having tea.
Um, but I wouldn't have done thatbecause I would have been so afraid
of like what you would ask me.
Now looking back, do youremember what you were afraid of?
(21:05):
I think I was afraid of rejecting myselfand being afraid to be able to say, you
are an adoptee who was born most likely inSeoul, Korea, um, and this is who you are.
You are not a blonde hair, blueeyed, Now, I refuse to take the
23andMe or any of those genetictests because in my false narrative,
(21:29):
my biological father is Italian.
So when I went to Italy, Iwas like, these are my people.
These are like my food, my fashion.
And so part of me felt like I had rootsin Italy and that seemed to be acceptable.
But what I find so interestingis that my roots in Korea.
were not acceptable to me.
(21:51):
And so when I think about racismor about, you know, all those, the
prejudice, all of that was directed to me.
Because what is it about methat says, I don't want to be
Korean, but I want to be Italian.
That, that is really, Deep question andwhy I was afraid to be able to interact
with anything that said you are KoreanAnd so I I need to embrace that and to
(22:17):
figure it out and it's still part ofthe journey I'm still trying to figure
that out My niece which is interestingmy daughter brother who's a biological
child of my parents, had twins.
What's interesting, my sister is abiological, um, child of my parents.
My brother's children though, onelooks like my sister and one looks
like me, oddly enough, even thoughboth of the parents are twins.
(22:42):
And this, uh, uh, young lady,the niece that looks like me was
being bullied for looking Asian.
And so she would say, I'm noteven Asian, I'm, I'm Irish.
And so that's why my shapeof my eyes are Irish.
And I asked her, I said, so isn'tit interesting that your eye shape
is okay if it's Irish at the, uh,uh, you know, if you're Irish.
(23:04):
Irish, but not okay.
If you are Korean orwhatever kind of thing.
And so those language in the way thatwe talk about that and the way we would
perceive what is good, beautiful and okay.
It's a, it's a, it's an interestingconversation because I had it
with myself and rejected myselfand hated on myself for that.
(23:24):
And how sad is that for me to hatea significant part of who I am?
It's um, so it's a learning, or I thinkwhen we talk about DEI work and people
don't want to do it and they reject it,it's because it's punitive because we
think you're wrong, you're saying thiswrong, you're prejudiced, you're racist.
But if you take it down tome, who is a person of color.
(23:46):
Who is like saying the same exact thingsthat someone we have identified as racist.
I'm saying those things about me.
Whoa.
Yeah.
And how much I often thinkhow much of that messaging
we picked up from society, you know, wepicked up from a teacher, from a mentor,
(24:09):
you know, and racism in the last, I wouldsay maybe 10 years is more talked about.
Right.
But you and I are the same age inthe seventies and the eighties.
Yeah.
It was really okay is that aboutwe're just gonna push it to the side,
or we're just going to ignore that.
(24:31):
someone said something racist, we're notgoing to acknowledge that it's being said.
So a lot of these messages, even Iso applaud you for even having that
recognition, that saying that to yourself,because I think in a sense of trying to
fit in, we all have these unconsciousbiases that we picked up somewhere.
(24:53):
And then now, as we're older,we're looking at it going, Hmm,
what was all that about, right?
I spent almost 20 years in Singapore ina Chinese culture, but when I came here,
because I tried to fit in, for about 15years, I pushed that culture to the side,
(25:15):
because the messaging that I receivedas a woman of color, your value is.
lower.
So I thought, oh, then by embracing theWestern culture, it will make me more
acceptable, my self worth will be higher.
But now looking back,that's not true, right?
So.
(25:36):
It's not true, but then it's reinforced,like you were saying in the beginning,
The importance of being able to see facesthat look like ours on the big screen
or in TV episodes or whatever it is.
Um, we did not havethat in the 70s and 80s.
And so, when you look at what is themodel of beauty, It is, it does not
look like you and me at that time.
(25:58):
Um, and so it's changing, but, orthere are some weird, you know, when
I started dating, there were someweird, um, ideas about Asian women.
And so I was like.
Yeah, that's not me, uh, and maybe itis or whatever kind of thing, but, uh,
no, thank you kind of thing becausesome very, very odd feelings and
(26:23):
thoughts about what does it mean to bean Asian female girlfriend or partner.
Yeah, the Asian fetishes.
Yes.
That's just yucky.
Bad.
Yeah, I don't like it's the samething for like a foot fetish.
I don't get it.
I mean, yuck.
But, and why is it?
So you could have those like by, orthose preferences, but I think when you
(26:46):
go and you like, have a preconceivednotion about what it is and expectations.
It has nothing to do with you gettingto know Anna and what are my likes and
dislikes and falling in love with me.
It is this idea of what you thinkI should be and it's like what
you've composed in your head andit has nothing to do with me.
(27:08):
100 percent because even you andI getting to know each other, I
can have all these assumptions butuntil I get to know you better.
I really don't know.
You know, I can assume thatby, by interacting with
you, I can make assumptions.
Oh, maybe Anna likes this.
Maybe Anna doesn't like this,but I really don't know.
(27:30):
You know, until I get to know youbetter and I often think the assumptions
that when we bring in the biases isthat we don't even give ourselves
and the other person a chance to bewho they are, so that we can truly be
vulnerable and learn about each other.
I love that vulnerable piece and it isthere's that vulnerability of like I'm
(27:53):
going to share this with you and I'mafraid that you're going to reject it and
say it's not good, it's not acceptable andthen it's going to go back and forth where
you get into that whole spiral of I'mnot good enough, I'm not worthy, I don't
deserve to be loved or here on this earth.
Yeah.
Have you been back to Korea?
(28:14):
Have you thought about going back?
That is such a good question and aninteresting one so I Have not and again,
so I would say i'm never going to korea.
That's not a place i'm interested Inthere are so many places in this world.
I want to see I think it's just now as i'mdoing the podcast and having conversation
and asking those questions that I refuseto That i'm open to going to Korea.
(28:39):
And, and, but I want to understand,and I want to be prepared for
going, because if I'm not, I feellike that could do more damage.
Um, if that makes sense, but maybe itdoesn't make any sense because it's
just an all an emotional responseto do I want to go now with the
answer where before it was like,no, I don't want to go there now.
It's like, maybe, maybeI do want to go there.
(29:03):
It makes sense to me.
And it's, uh, so I am curious if Iask you, what are your identities?
How would you name them?
Yeah, well, I would say,my name is Anna Jinja.
(29:24):
I am somebody who is compassionateand curious, and who wants to be
able to make a difference in thisworld, and to surrender to the world.
What am I supposed to do to this worldand to be able to listen to it and
to be, um, willing to follow that.
I was born in Korea.
So I am an Asian American transracialadoptee who grew up in Iowa.
(29:49):
So I am an Iowan.
Um, I am a, I am a wife,spouse, daughter, friend.
Um, I wish that I were a greatsinger and that I could be a rock
and roller, but I have a terriblevoice and nobody wants to hear it.
(30:10):
I wish that I had just three more inchesof height so I could like, Wear the
dresses that I want to the way thatI want to, uh, those are the things
that I wish, but I know those arethings that I, as much as I wish and
believe that I could be and do it, ifI believe it, it's not going to happen.
I'm not going to be able to everbe able to, uh, join American Idol.
(30:33):
Uh, Simon Kel will saythat, ain't it, get off.
Bye-bye
. I, I, I resonate with that.
Cannot sing, cannot dance.
Mm-hmm.
Just no.
People are like, sure you can dance.
I'm like, no.
We didn't even have adance, uh, at our wedding.
(30:54):
We're just like, my husbandand I looked at each other
going, no . I do love to dance.
I don't even care if I'm good.
So that, I'm like, I'mgoing to bust a move.
'cause I.
I just like to have fun.
Would you share how tall are you?
Oh, I'm so sorry.
How tall are you?
(31:14):
Oh, I'm like 5'4 Yeah,we are the same height.
Yeah.
I just want a couple more inches.
You know, I used to think that in like20 years ago, because buying pens was
always, you always had to alter them.
But now, But now they may.
uh, pens in the length for short people.
So I'm like, okay, this is good then.
(31:36):
Yes.
Well, I would wear heels all the time.
I mean, now I can't, cause there's likewhere I live has all these, um, brick
pavement, it's harder to walk in them.
But, um, in meetings, I used to loveto wear heels because, you know,
as someone who's smaller, I wantedto be able to project confidence.
And so one of the times I did that, Iwill say I, um, did my presentation great.
(31:59):
And then yeah.
the electric tape that washolding down the cable to the
projector, my heel got stuck in it.
So I went flying about four feetahead, maintained my balance, thank
you very much, but had to go backin that meeting and pull the heel
out and like limp out of the room.
And so there's something to besaid about embracing your height
(32:19):
and just wearing flats and notdoing something stupid like that.
But I do wish, and so if I were likethree or four inches taller, I would have
worn flats and not have had that happen.
Are you somebody that people, whenthey describe you, they would say,
Oh no, I would never guess thatAnna is 5'4 She feels like she's
(32:42):
like 5'7 There are some people whothey, they carry that big energy.
Well, thank you.
I'm going to remember that.
I mean, yes.
And then I don't wear those stupid heels.
I get caught in the cobblestoneor in the duct tape.
I've never gotten into hills becauseI inherited my mother's bunion.
(33:03):
Oh yeah.
Well, and they hurt regardless,even if you bunions are not like at
one point, you just get to a pointwhere you think you look great and
then you're like hobbling around.
And so there's like, what's the point?
You don't look cool.
You don't look sophisticated.
You look like you've got.
Something, you know, stuck up your bum.
(33:24):
Oh, I would love to talk aboutyour debut novel, Saving Grace.
Please, tell us a bit about it.
Well, it started, you know,because I wanted to process my
lived adoption experience in acouple of failed relationships.
And so I would write, I wasliving in England at the time.
(33:45):
I would write in the morning.
Um, and my partner at the time toldme that writing and creative endeavors
basically are self indulgent activity.
And it, You should only do it if itgenerates revenue And you have to be
good for it to generate revenue andyou're not good at it Now i'm not with
this partner anymore, obviously and sopart of the writing process though as I
(34:09):
surrounded myself with people in englandthat That said writing is a way to be
able to like contribute to the world.
Even if no one reads it It's okaybecause it's yours and you're creatively
expressing What is going on in your life?
And the, um, person said to me, insome ways too, that there have been
(34:29):
books or things that have been readthat have changed lives, that have like
made people pivot in a way to be ableto see the world in a different way.
And I said to, um, Claire and Kate,well, I've written this piece,
it's about 10, 000 words of crap.
And they're like, it's 10,000 words of your crap.
Crap embrace it and that was importantfor me because I think that just as we're
(34:51):
saying I rejected myself because I feltlike I Wasn't good enough because of the
way I looked I felt like I can't do thisI can't write a novel because i'm not
barbara kingsolver I'm, not you know thisor that and so I don't deserve to write
a novel But my podcast is all about thesecreative expressions and exchanges So
(35:12):
i'm somewhat of a hypocrite Uh, and so Icontinued to write it I finished it, got
to Iowa and met the publisher who agreedto publish the book and then tried to
delay the launch because I was afraid ofit coming out and said, can we delay it?
The publisher that, uh, told me no,and then come to find out he had stage
(35:32):
four pancreatic cancer and it wouldbe the last book that he published.
And so I couldn't say no, of course.
Um, and so it's out in the world andI've been trying to keep it a secret.
Not a very good secret becauseagain, it goes back to that root of
feeling rejection and feeling thatI'm not good enough and I don't
deserve my place in this world.
(35:55):
And so I, it's this weird balance oflike, I want to be able to share the
story because there are some, experiences.
Grace, um, talks to a womanwho talks about how she really
feels about her adopted childrenversus her biological children.
And I actually had an encounterwith a woman that was similar
to that and fictionalized it.
Um, but I remember hearing that for thefirst time, an adoptive parent saying
(36:19):
that she felt differently about herbiological children than her adopted
children, that she felt this fear.
Um And she was a fierce mama wolf ormama bear protective feeling towards
her biological children that she didn'tfeel towards her adopted children.
She knew as an adoptee, um,but still spoke this truth.
And for me, it just completelydisrupted my world about thinking
(36:41):
about Because you always hear, I loveyou just the same, and this or that.
And then for someone to speak thetruth like that, it was so disruptive,
so hurtful, but so refreshing.
Because when we speak the truth, soI've tried to reframe it in thinking,
yes, she may feel differently about heradopted children, but that doesn't mean
(37:05):
that she doesn't love her children.
Um, but when you hear a, a, Untruth ifsomeone's saying I love you just the
same and you know at some level it's notthe truth Then you're living within this
like weird kind of how do I process this?
and so the point is that I wanted to putthat in the book because if someone had
(37:29):
ever felt that to be able to Figure outa way to articulate that truth in a way.
That was safe And adopting grace is sothere's some funny bits in there too
and light hearted You Because I feellike I don't want to like mm mm mm that
message in your face, you know And I'mmaking these gestures like punching
you in the face But but if we don'tdeliver those truths and then figure
(37:51):
out how do we talk to about them?
how do we process them and how do we comeback to a place of love and Understanding
and compassion and connection then we'regoing to continue just be having this
internal rage Of like knowing that'snot the truth and being pissed off all
the time and I don't want to be pissedoff Now sometimes anger does really
good like especially if I want to loseweight because I want to fit into my
(38:14):
jeans I'm like, yeah, i'm pissed off.
I'm gonna go work out.
Bam.
Bam.
Bam I'm gonna do a dance party andi'm gonna change that destruction.
Hopefully to being able to seefit into my pants properly, but
otherwise it turns into I hate myself.
I don't trust my parents.
I don't trust the people that I loveand we go through this world just like
(38:36):
Not being in our full potential of likeexperiencing joy and pain in a way.
That's meaningful Mm-hmm.
And I have the privilege of, uh,reading the, the final draft.
I think, and as I said to you before westarted recording, uh, I need a part two.
Mm-hmm.
(38:56):
Ms.
Anna, thank you.
I appreciate that so much.
I, I honestly don't know if I haveit in me because this one has been
such like, you know, a labor of.
You know, there's been such fear andanxiety my husband, you know, people
are very upset about this because youheard his interview He's very charming.
He's loving and compassionate He hasn'tread the book because I won't let
(39:18):
him because I'm because he's he it'sa compliment to him because he's so
You know, he's such a great writer.
I don't want to hear this or thatwhich he's not going to right but
but at the same time That fearis still in me that the previous
narrative of you're not good enough.
You shouldn't be writing is selfish thisor that Uh is I don't want that connected
(39:42):
to to p But oh my gosh, it's out becausehere I am talking on your podcast to
say Thank you for reading the book.
And you know, I'm going to betelling everybody about this book.
And I appreciate that.
I just won't tell youthat I'm telling people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and another thing is that it's thisweird thing again, about like, again,
(40:05):
the beginning of my story, we asked aboutmy childhood of rejecting myself and
trying to like, Not be seen but be seen.
I mean I was wearing, you know stufflike Madonna and this or that I wore
jeans that had acdc on them and peoplelike why do you have that because I
wanted people to notice I wanted themto notice what I wanted them to notice.
(40:26):
And with the book, I want you to beable to read it and to connect it
and say, do you have this experience?
Do you know what it feels like to be anadoptee, trying to navigate through this?
Or do you, have you been with a partnerwho's like rejected you for somebody else?
You know, those kinds of common things.
I want to be able to Connect, butthen I'm like, Ooh, but if you
(40:46):
say you hate it, I'll get like,
You know, I, I'm just gonna, I'mgoing to share my experience.
So I make pottery.
I'm a hobby potter.
So, you know, so I make like ceramics.
That's all you're trying to say.
Oh, no.
Yeah.
Oh, there we go.
Oh, that's a good one.
Yeah.
And but I do understand that.
(41:09):
Oh my God, I'm putting mybaby out into the world.
But then it's funny because youtalk about the podcast too, because
that's also a creative process.
Right.
And I, my approach to it, whether it'swith ceramic pieces or whether it's the
podcast is, I truly believe that thepeople who need it, the people who are
(41:31):
going to find it, listen to the podcastor buy a piece of my work, they are meant
to be, and it benefits them in some way.
And I'm going to say your book, theI'm not going to spoil it for people
who haven't read it, but the part aboutthe foam roller and Bailey, the whole
(41:53):
event of Emily threatening Bailey, Iwas laughing out loud in my living room.
And also the part about having apartner who doesn't embrace you
for who you are been dead on that.
So, Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(42:14):
A few more questions for you.
How are you doing?
Yeah, I'm doing great.
This is a great conversation.
You, your promise of like it beinga fun, easy, breezy conversation.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
You make me feel very comfortable.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I would love to talk about,because this has come up a
few times, sense of belonging.
(42:36):
What does it mean to you now?
Well, I think it's moreabout belonging to myself.
I think it's more about self acceptance.
That radical belief in compassionfor myself and that wherever I go,
um, that I can know that I belongand that I have a place in this
world and that it's not dependenton what other people think about me.
(43:00):
Now, that's not to say that, um, Idon't care about what people think,
because I just gave a whole thingabout why I won't share my book or
why I've tried to keep it a secret.
But, but I, but my, the wholething, a definition of belonging
is that do I belong here?
And I do.
And I, um, and that's what I wish forothers with the podcast and with the
(43:22):
book is that they know that they have aplace in this world for Daniel, who was
my cohost for, I am able Iowa that evenwith a diagnosis of being autistic, is
that that means that is a part of him,but he belongs because he is this amazing.
Human being that has something tocontribute to this world just by what he
(43:42):
asked and how he engages in the world.
And for those that don't feel likethey belong because I have done
things that I am sure that havemade people feel outside the circle.
And so it's that recognition too,that I have caused harm to others.
And what am I doing to make sure that I,um, forgive myself and then also engage
(44:03):
in the person that I've hurt to movethrough a path of reconciliation, to be
able to say, I am sorry I have hurt you.
What can I do to support youand help you on this journey?
Well, I love that.
What does community mean to you?
How does it look like to you?
You know, I describe myself as a gypsy.
(44:25):
Um, so I've never livedin a place for very long.
If you look at my work historyfor a number of reasons,
I've had a number of jobs.
And I feel like part of that is because I,I tell myself that because as an adoptee,
I feel like sometimes that I, I'm able toconnect, make strong connections and then
move on or like Mary Poppins a little bit.
(44:47):
I've compared myself to Mary Poppinsa little bit and there's a sadness to
that too because I feel like I don'tbelong to a community, one community.
So when I hear like other people, Iwas talking to the, uh, a young group
of students that are part of the AsianAmerican Pacific Islander student group.
And so I had given a presentation.
(45:08):
They were just like, I was cracking jokes.
I thought it was funny.
I was like, and then there wasnothing, there was not even a,
and I was like, Oh, I got out.
I was like, gosh, Ibombed those kids hate me.
And I got an email from onethat said, you were hilarious.
That was awesome.
I said, Oh my gosh, Ithought I bombed that kid.
Well, you know how Asians are.
(45:28):
We're very stoic.
And I remember thinking, I'm part ofyour group, but I'm not part of your
community, because I had, I had no clue.
And so sometimes when I see that,and like, there's like comedians
who talk about their culture andtheir families and this or that,
like, well, you know how we are.
And I'm like, Oh, I don't have that.
I don't feel like I alwaysfeel like I'm on that outside.
(45:51):
So for me, I also over invite people.
So for me, community means that youcan't come to the table no matter what.
And so if I ever see anybody leftout, I'm like, Hey, do you want to,
even if it's not my party, which myhusband's like, that's not your party.
But I'm like, Hey, you should cometo Maya's house, come to her party.
He's like, it's not your party.
I didn't want them to feel left out.
(46:12):
So for me community is like I'mgoing to invite you in because I
never want you to feel left out.
Uh, but also learning the rules thatyou can't invite people that have not
been invited and have not been in theaccount for food for this for that too.
Oh, yeah, but you know, I'm with you.
(46:33):
If I see somebody left out,they're going to be lonely.
Come on.
Let's go.
Let's try.
Yeah.
It gets you in trouble though.
So many times where it's awkward where I'mlike, Oh yeah, invite them to come along.
I'm like, we only have six chairs.
I'm like, Oh, they can have my chair.
I'll stand up.
Don't worry.
I'll eat my soup sitting up.
I can do it.
(46:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm, yeah, I'm good to say.
Ah, I'll just sit on the floor.
It's all good.
Yeah, yeah, me too.
I'm with ya.
Uh, um, favorite food?
What's your comfort food?
Oh my gosh.
Well, I love, um, pizza.
Ooh.
And I love pizza with,like, lots of stuff on it.
(47:16):
There's a place calledDewey's Pizza in Dayton, Ohio.
I love their pizza so much.
It's like got the perfect crust.
It's got like the sauce and the number oftoppings and the crispiness that I like.
So I do love pizza.
I, I'm slightly lactose intolerant.
So the cheese.
(47:39):
Oh yeah.
But you know, they have these greatthings that you can take these
lactose pills that you take before.
And so those work miracles.
I always forget to take them.
Yes.
What?
is something you wish people knowabout adoptees, whether it's from
your personal experience or theinterviews you've done on your podcast.
(48:03):
So I, what I want, especially forlike, as I have conversation with
adopted parents and those outsideis that I want people to know.
So for adoptees, for most ofus, our first chapters have been
completely ripped out of the book.
We don't know.
A lot of us don't have noidea about our origin stories.
And sometimes I found throughsome research, the stories have
(48:25):
been made up to be able to provideclosure and they are not the truth.
And so I think that, um, That what alot of people don't realize and that
whole concept about being grateful.
I was told that over and over again,that you should be grateful that you
were adopted, that you were chosen.
And I think it can be both, and I canbe sad and I can be mad and I can be
(48:49):
confused about not knowing my origin storyand not having any connection to that.
And I can be grateful that Ihave a place in this world, but
nobody asked biological children.
Like you must be so grateful that youwere born that you were in this family.
And so I just think the bothand of just understanding that
(49:09):
I don't have to be perfect.
It's not if this, then I canbe accepted that I should just
be accepted because I am here.
Uh, and that is what I want others toknow about adoption is that I don't
want to be grateful for everything.
I want to be able to be me.
Yeah, and I also think the, the wordgrateful, there's different meanings
(49:33):
attached to it like almost like guiltand shame attached to it when someone
says to me, you should be grateful.
And it's like, but you're not allowingme to feel what I need to feel.
Well said and I think there's atransactional part about being grateful.
So then you should be grateful.
(49:55):
So you've earned thisbank of like, yes, good.
And then when you dothat, it's a withdrawal.
So if I'm mad, that's a withdrawal here.
So then you're not this.
And then you, I'm going to beupset that I don't get my gap
dress and throw a temper tantrum.
Okay.
So, but you've got this.
And so then it comes down to like, Okay.
There's a bank deposit and withdrawalthing that's happening when it
(50:18):
comes to thinking about as atransactional relationship rather
than just being a relationship oflike give or take and understanding
that every person is complex.
Yeah.
What are you most lookingforward to in the future?
You know what I'm going to sayafter this interview, I'm looking
(50:39):
forward to visiting Korea.
I'm looking forward to being curiousand having the courage to be able to
figure out and be in a place whereI started my life and not avoid it.
That's beautiful.
Last question for you.
Well, maybe second last question.
(51:04):
What is one thing that youwish people know about you?
Oh, that's a good question.
Hmm.
Um,
I think that, uh, which I just hada discussion with my husband about
this, that I wish people knew that.
My intensity comes from a place of, andthe way that that ebbs and flows, that
(51:29):
intensity is, is a place of caring.
It's not a, it's not mebeing mad for the most part.
It is just me intensely tryingto figure out how do I interact
with the world or with you.
And that it's not, it doesn'tcome from a place of being upset.
(51:52):
I don't know if that makes sense, but.
Well, if I'm, if I hear it correctly,because I think oftentimes.
Especially for a woman, when we, um,expressing ourselves outside of what
(52:13):
society seems acceptable, then it'slike, oh, she must be having a bad day.
She must be angry.
Maybe she's hormonal.
You know, those things right so
wrong with intensity, as long asyou're still being kind and loving
(52:37):
and compassionate, because like yousaid just now, during one of the
during the interview is that we areall complex, we are all human beings.
Yeah, well, I was explaining toI was sharing an experience with
my husband and that I had to firesomebody once was my first firing.
(52:59):
And so we were with the HR person andshe said, You know, what I hate about
working with you is that you're so intensethat you're really funny and then you're
really intense and focused on work.
And so I never know whatAnna I'm going to get.
And you bring chocolate chip cookiesto work and that just makes me mad.
I was like, okay So why does it make youmad about the chocolate chip cookies?
(53:20):
because people can't be mad at youlike if you bring chocolate chip
cookies, but i'm mad because you'reLike I can't figure out what anna i'm
getting and i'll never forget thatconversation because I just think So
you want me to be one singular way?
all the time kind of thing whichcompletely Rejects like that.
(53:40):
I might be hangry.
I might be this or that kind of thingBut but it was such an interesting
conversation one because it was one of myfirst firings That I had to do and then
second that was the reason why she didn'twant to do her work or to work with me Is
because I was too intense and so I thinkeven though I was having to fire her.
She actually was firing me
(54:04):
Boy, that was complex.
Oh, I know.
And if you're out there and youknow who you are, I'm sorry.
I wish you well.
I hope you're doing well.
And I hope someone's baking you chocolatechip cookies and you're not mad about it.
Yeah, you know, and it's the,but it's the assumptions, right?
(54:26):
It's the ideals that we placeon people, the expectations
we place on people, right?
And I, I mean, besides doing this,You know, my work is as a therapist,
so I often see this, it's like, howmuch of Our stuff are we projecting
to others and then we are hopingthat they will behave in this way so
(54:48):
that it doesn't hurt our feelings.
Now, not that we don't takeresponsibility each of us take
responsibility for how we show up.
But if someone shows upand it kind of bothers me.
I often go.
What does that remind me of why is it.
You know, activating me right now, youknow, I don't think it's my responsibility
(55:12):
I take accountability that if you sayyou and I meet for coffee or something
and then you say something that I'mlike, Oh, I can't believe you say this.
I think it's my responsibility for oneto say, maybe text you later and goes hey
Anna you know when you said that just nowit didn't land right can we talk about it.
And then part two of that is okay.
(55:34):
When Anna said that it reminded me ofa situation I had with my older sister.
that I haven't healed yet.
So I need to take accountabilityfor healing that part of me.
And then I bring compassionbecause I'm like, nobody's perfect.
Why do I expect you to show up tobe perfect when I'm not perfect?
(55:56):
That's good stuff.
I can see why you're a good therapist.
Woo.
Thank you.
The gray hair helps.
You brought it home.
Last question for you.
How do you take care ofyourself and your heart?
Well, I love coffee, so I don't know ifthat takes care of my heart, but it does.
And I think for me, I'm a morning person.
(56:17):
As I said, I love those morning walkswith my dog and those quiet moments to
be able to listen to and to listen andto also ask for help and support of
how I can be and become my best self.
So how can I surrender?
To what I'm supposed tobe doing in this world.
And then those quiet moments with mydog, I'm, I'm just able to receive
(56:40):
and to give and a special way.
So if I don't have my morningwalk, it's important to have a dog
because he needs to do his businessand I need to do mine of just like
reoriented myself for the day.
Okay, we must name the dog Floyd.
What kind of dog?
Yeah.
That's right.
What kind of dog is Floyd?
He is a King Charles Cavalier Spaniel.
(57:02):
And he is, I love Floyd.
I know you have a dog as well.
And so those furry family membersbring such joy into our lives.
And I just, uh, so I recommendanyone who doesn't have allergies
and not afraid of dogs, get adog because you're a therapist.
Oh my gosh.
Absolutely.
They, they just are so.
Yeah.
Magnificently wonderful and how,and also if you have a dog and you
(57:26):
live in a new community, you talkabout belonging and community.
If you walk a dog that lookscute, people are going to stop
and say, Oh, look at your dog.
So cute.
Can I pet him?
And then you have a conversation.
So you talk about belongingcommunity, get a dog.
Mm hmm.
And I will say that, uh, get sowe don't have Children neither.
(57:47):
Uh, getting Bailey our dog,uh, healed a part of me about.
My relationship with my mother.
It was very interesting.
The first two years ofparenting Bailey, it was like,
(58:07):
Oh, I almost wanted to say thisto Bailey, which my mother would
have said I was like, Hmm, no.
Patience.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I feel like that's anothertime that we should talk because
I don't have children either.
Uh, and Floyd, I mean, probably that'swhy he's so important to me as well.
(58:29):
Um, but I think that also beingchildless and adoptee and our age.
I think the way that people perceivethose that don't have children has
been an interesting part of theconversation as an adoptee as well.
And that's probably a completelydifferent episode, but I would love
to explore that with you as wellbecause we have that in common.
(58:50):
Yes, I would love to have you back.
Well, thank you so much, Anna, forcoming on and sharing your story with us.
Yeah.
for this lovely conversation.
You're amazing.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode of the
conversations with your Chinese.
Auntie Podcast.
(59:12):
I really enjoyed myconversation with Anna.
Check out her book.
I will put links to Anna's podcast and.
Her book on the shownotes.
Please be good to yourself.
Be gentle with yourself and you allhave heard me say this before in the
(59:33):
times we're in, this is very important.
To build community, find community,find your people who can be there for
you and you can be there for them.
Take good care of yourself.
And if you are enjoying the show.
Please feel free to rate, subscribe,and leave a review wherever
(59:56):
you listen to your podcasts.
That helps me and that also help others tofind a show and I greatly appreciate it.
Also, you can go to my website andsign up for newsletter I send one
out maybe three or four times a year.
With free materials and updates.
My website is Patricia Petersen.cathat's PATRICIAPETERSEN.CA.
(01:00:27):
You can also follow me on Instagram.
Again, thank you so much for listening.
Have a great week and I'll see you soon.
Thank you for your support.
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