Exploring the Depths of Friendship: Insights and Stories with Anna Jinja Mather, Lara Therrien Boulos, Luna Aixin & Sarah Whitehead

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hi everyone, welcome to the Conversationswith your Chinese Auntie podcast.
I am Patricia Petersen,your Chinese auntie.
You can also call me YiYi.
. In this podcast, I have interesting,compelling and thoughtful conversations
with BIPOC folks Black, Indigenous,People of Color folks about life.

(00:24):
My intention for this podcast isto give voice to People of Color
and learn more about their lives.
Sometimes I also talk to delightfulnon BIPOC folks who have a lot of wisdom.
When I record the podcast,I imagine I'm having tea.
And dim sum with my guests.
I hope you enjoy it.

(00:45):
Hi everybody.
In today's episode, I have fourof my dear friends with me.
Anna, Sarah, Lara and Luna.
I've been wanting to do an episode onfriendship having friends , is so
important but I've also heard fromA lot of people in my life that it is

(01:07):
so hard to make good solid friends.
So, I've been thinking about thisfor a while, probably a couple of
years, is how do we find friends?
How do we keep friends, keep good friends?
And what do we need to doto maintain friendships?
In this episode we talkabout a wide range of things.

(01:29):
We share our experience withfriendship and how we make new
friends, and how we keep old friends.
Hello, everybody.
Welcome.
Today, I have Anna, Sarah, Lara, and Luna,and we're going to talk about friendship.

(01:58):
First, I would love for you all todo a quick introduction of yourself,
and I'm going to go with Anna first.
Well, thank you for inviting me to be partof this conversation about friendship.
My name is Anna Jinja, I host apodcast that features adoption and
foster care stories and then matchthem to artists to be able to have
these creative interchanges to figureout like how do we navigate our way

(02:20):
through the world to create connectionsand community and friendships.
Hi, I'm Sarah, and I'mfrom Buffalo, New York.
I am a communication professionaland a now full time potter.
Good morning, everyone.
My name is Lara.
I'm in North Vancouver, BC, Canada,on unceded Musqueam, Squamish,

(02:43):
and Tsleil Waututh territories.
Um, I've known Patricia formaybe seven or eight years now.
Uh, and, um, through some of the spiritualand intuition development work that we've
both done and, uh, ancestral work, myancestry is Egyptian and French Canadian.

(03:07):
And in my professional life, I am anurban planner, uh, that's now in senior
management at a small Indigenous owned,uh, urban planning consulting company.
And Luna, my fellow Singaporean.
Hello.
Tākehō.

(03:27):
Wo-a-miang-is-AiXin.
Uh, hi, everyone.
My name is Luna.
Uh, and, uh, I'm so happy to behere to, to talk about friendship.
And yeah, it's a, it's a contentioussubject, one that I'm really
interested to talk about andalso struggle to talk about.
Um, I, like Patricia, um, was born inSingapore and I'm now in North Vancouver,

(03:52):
um, also in unceded Musqueam, TsleilWaututh, and Squamish territories.
I'm in the room beside Lara'sbecause Lara's my partner.
So we're doing this together.
And I know Patricia through Lara.
And it was so nice to know, uh, when I metLara that she had a Singaporean friend.

(04:12):
And so Patricia and I became friendsand we had done a podcast, uh, episode
together as well, talking aboutLunar New Year, which just happened.
Uh, you know, one year anniversaryfrom that last conversation, so
yeah, I'm excited to to be here.
I'm, uh, an artist.
I'm a community planner and also afacilitator, and I do a lot of work

(04:37):
around racism, anti racism and equity.
Uh, but also have largely stepped intotalking about connections, uh, community,
what that means in a public space.
Uh, and recently also did in the lastcouple of years, uh, did a project
that was focused on developingconnections as neighbors in high rises.

(05:02):
Which was something I grew up doingand funny enough when I moved here to
Canada that kind of subsided and so wasreally nerdy about it and interested
in that a fun project with fourneighbors in this building where we
talked about friendship and connectionsand what it means to be neighbors.

(05:23):
Thank you, everybody.
If you're willing to share, I wouldlove to hear your age and what
you've learned about friendshipor making friends growing up.
Did you were you taught how to makefriends by your parents or elders?

(05:44):
Or was it easy?
Because I was never taughthow to make friends.
It was just like, here you go.
Go to the playground.
Good luck.
You know, when I think aboutit and I am turn 51 this year
and I grew up in Singapore.
So a lot of my influenceswere from Singapore.
Also growing in Singapore.

(06:04):
At that time, you don't reallynecessarily need a lot of friends
because you're surrounded bycousins, you know, extended family.
So if y'all would share maybewhere you grew up as a child, how
you learned to make friends andyour age, that would be great.

(06:24):
I can go first.
So, um, you're 51, you're young.
I'm 52, so I'm ahead.
Uh, and I grew up in Iowa, and,uh, so I was, uh, adopted, and
so the only Asian in my family.
And, uh, and growing up in Iowa, I, Iremember one of the first memories I have.

(06:46):
Not one of the first memories, butone of the memories I have in fourth
grade, they would make you name,they would go through the roll call
and say, okay, so if you're an AsianPacific Islander, please stand up.
'cause they would do a count.
And so I would have to stand up andI was always the first one and the
only one in my class had to stand up.
I don't think they woulddo that nowadays, but.

(07:08):
But it was just a spotlight likeon who's the different one and all
the, uh, my, my students and, andfriends would say, who's the Asian?
And I'm like, oh, it's Anna.
That's right.
Kind of thing.
And so all my conversations andfriendships would start with,
well, what are you doing here?
Who are you?
And so I learned to adapt and, and.

(07:28):
I hope that 52 have a sense of humorabout some of the questions about
trying to connect and to make friendfriendships, um, some based on
assumptions and some based on pity.
I think sometimes people felt likewhen I was in CO or high school.
To like they would like,oh, look at poor Anna.
She's all by herself.
Nobody wants to be her friend.
So I'll be her friend So it's the pityfriend sometimes that felt like I also

(07:53):
feel like you know at 52 and all thathappening I remember lots of occasions
when people would say I would be standingright there and people would be like hey
we should get together and do this andthen I would be standing there by myself
like So not invited into that group.
So now what I do is I've swung theother way, but to my husband's whore,

(08:14):
we're all invite everybody because I'lleven invite people to parties that are
not my parties, because I'm so afraidof people being left out, which has
created some very awkward, uh, situationsfor me, but it all comes from that
experience of not feeling, feeling likethe other, and that I'm not invited.
So that's.

(08:35):
Somewhat of the basis of me startingmy thoughts about friendship.
I can jump in , I'm 35.
Uh, I grew up in the house that weare currently in, North Vancouver.
Um, but actually also moved around a lot.
So we moved here when I was five andthen we moved away for two years when

(08:58):
I was nine came back when I was 12.
And then by then I wasfinishing elementary school.
And so there was also a moveto a different high school and
then actually moved high schoolsagain for my last two years.
Of, um, like, um, under Iwrote a primary schooling.
Yeah, primary and secondary schooling.
And I think that all of thosetransitions actually really helped

(09:20):
me in my learning about how to makefriends because in those earlier
years, I was actually quite bullied.
And so, um, I had friends and Idon't really remember being taught a
particular way to become friends withsomeone, but there were also other
people in school that would pick on me.
And so when we left that first time whenI was nine, it really felt like this fresh

(09:44):
start to be able to, um, have a bit of aclean slate and like not have those kinds
of energies and behaviors around me andget put on quite a brave face and, um,
and didn't, yeah, like spoke back more,I think, you know, with new people, if
they've kind of pushed on things, butthat might have been a struggle for me

(10:05):
previously, because I didn't know them.
There wasn't that history.
Um, and so as I went on in my, in myyounger years with those learnings,
I think I built a lot more confidenceand that supported me to make new
friends every time I would have tomake new friends in these new contexts.
But I don't really remember everbeing taught like how you do that.

(10:26):
I think it was a lot of trial and error.
And, um, and I think that that selfassuredness was like a little bit
of fake it till you make it, but atsome point it started to kick in.
And I think, um, started to, youknow, attract great people to me.
I think, like, we startedfinding each other.
Uh, whereas when I was, you know,six or seven and, like, still

(10:50):
figuring it out in those earlierdays, it was Um, it was a lot harder.
Yeah, it was a lot harder.
I am 43.
I grew up in a very, verysmall town in western New York.
Like, we had a blinking light,and we have, the joke is we

(11:10):
have more cows than people.
Kind of small town.
Um,
but we moved a lot before, like, we spentthe bulk of, we moved there in fourth
grade, but we moved a lot before that.
So, I had a hard time, like, Makingconnections, and by the time we
moved to that small town, it wasvery much everybody else had gone to

(11:30):
school together through kindergarten.
And it was like, oh,you're the new family.
You're the outsider.
Like, even in my teenageyears, like, people be like,
oh, you live in the new house.
And I'm like, but we'vebeen here for 15 years.
Like, we never made that connection.
My brother.
Got to start in kindergarten there, sohe got to make better connections than

(11:50):
I did and he had a much easier time.
Um, so I struggled to makefriends that entire time.
And then when I was thinking, Patricia,about some of these questions, you said.
Um, it occurred to me that I never had.
That modeled by any adults, like, Iremember asking my mom as a kid, like.
How can you don't have any friends?
You don't have any people over?

(12:12):
How can we don't haveany kind of social life?
Because I remember that they hadthat when we lived in the city when
I was really young, and then we movedaway that all went away and she's
like, well, I don't need any friends.
And then, when I started to get bulliedas a team that got reinforced of,
like, well, you don't need friends.
You don't need to.
Connect with people, so just.
Still continue to struggle as anadult with, like, how do we do this?

(12:35):
Because I don't have a good model for it.
And I've definitely found myself inreally bad friendships because I was
just desperate to connect with somebody.
And I kind of let myself be steamrolledinstead of making a good connection.
So.
Still learning.
I'm like a baby friend.

(12:56):
Well, um, this is bringing back a lotof memories, Patricia, uh, talking
about growing up in Singapore.
And thank you everyonefor sharing your stories.
It's so insightful to just listento, to what all of you had to say.
And, um, so I was born in Singaporeand I lived there for 20 years before I
moved away from Singapore and my family.

(13:19):
And I moved here by myself.
And so friendship for me hasalways been a very localized thing.
And it's, it wasn't something thatwas taught by my parents per se,
but I do see the way that theymake friends and lose friends.
And I would say like my, my parents had,um, a very difficult life, um, growing up,

(13:44):
I watched them suffer quite a bit throughlife economically, uh, but socially
it was really interesting because.
A lot of, uh, the friends that theyhad, I remember them, uh, up till I was
maybe about eight or nine years old.
And all of a sudden Idon't see them anymore.
And my mom and dad, their friends kindof change from just these like social

(14:08):
circle friends to friends at work.
So actually a lot of their friends circlescomprises of people who were at work
with them, uh, and also our relatives.
Uh, and when I was eight years old, wemoved closer to, uh, be closer to my
grandmother and we moved from the Southof Singapore to the middle of Singapore.

(14:30):
And all of a sudden I foundmyself, uh, living within blocks
of my cousins and my aunties.
Uh, and so that really was, was the mainactivity of friend activity that I had was
like surrounding myself with my cousins.
But then when I went to school,then I started making friends there.

(14:50):
Um, but a lot of the friends thatI had were in the same class as me.
I was kind of born in the lower class.
Uh, and I found it in Singapore.
It was really easy to make friendswhen you're off the same class.
And so where we live,we live in an apartment.
But in Singapore, we callthem flats because we kind
of follow the British system.

(15:12):
And so in these flats, uh,I watched my parents make
friends with all our neighbors.
I think not that theynecessarily liked them.
They liked a lot of them, but a lot ofit was also this idea of, uh, something
we call kampong spirits and kampong is aMalay word that really means, um, like the

(15:33):
village spirit, but you don't necessarilyhave to like each other, but you're
there to support each other in need.
And so there was a lot of thathappening when I was growing up.
And then when I move here, um,this is really, really interesting.
Now I'm thinking about it.
So in Singapore, people used to ask whenyou're making new friends, the first thing
you'll be asking is where do you live?

(15:56):
And I went from getting a lot of where doyou live questions to when I came here, I
got a lot of where are you from questions.
Um, which then made making friendslike a whole different thing.
I feel like Sarah, I reallyfeel you when you say, I feel
like a baby making friends.
When I came here, I had to relearn,uh, what it means to make friends

(16:18):
with folks who live in Canada.
And it's a whole, it's a verydifferent dynamic because
distances are so much further.
Um, racial, economic, culturaldisparities are also so much bigger.
Um, so I really found myself kind ofscrambling and I've been scrambling
for 20 years trying to figure out whatfriendship means and what it means

(16:41):
to make friends in North America.
Which, which I, I don't have, I don'treally have a good idea at, I'm 47
years old this year, turning 47.
Um, but according to thelunar calendar, I'm 47.
And it's, yeah, it's, it's beena really interesting journey

(17:03):
of trying to figure out.
Um, how to bridge sort of thesecultural gaps when everything used
to be so localized and now everythingfeels like, Oh, you know, I have
a friend that lives a three hourflight away, a five hour flight away.
It used to be that my friendlive five doors away from me.

(17:27):
So, that's a thing thatI'm trying to figure out.
Thank you.
So the next question is, and Anna,I would love to hear your thoughts
on this first, because how youbring people home now, because you
don't want people to feel left out.
How do you define a friend?

(17:48):
Are relatives considered friends?
Are siblings considered a friend?
Because I think there needs to be certaincharacteristics of what a friend is.
Well, I think that's a good question.
Um, and I just got through, um, Ijust got a book called See No Stranger

(18:09):
by Valerie Cowher, and I don'tknow if you know that book at all.
Um, but the book See No Stranger, mystepdaughter wrote me a lovely note
that said, I just read this book,it's one of my favorite books from
2024, and it reminded me of you,because you don't see strangers.
And I thought, what a compliment.
My heart was just Bursting withjust love and appreciation for that.

(18:29):
I think there are like, you know,when you ask about the definition
of friend, I think that I used tobe in advancement and fundraising.
And so we had gold circle,silver circle platinum.
And so I would jokingly say.
You're a gold circle friend.
You get these benefits.
Five phone calls with me.
You get a letter from me.
You get this or that.

(18:50):
If you're at the bronze level, youmight get one phone call per month
and, uh, and a happy birthday card.
That's about it kind of thing.
And so I think when we categorizethose are friends, it's in
a way to be able to yeah.
protect our space to create boundaries.
Um, so I think that when you ask aboutparents and families, whether or not
they can be friend, I'm always cautiouswhen, um, or my antenna goes up when a

(19:14):
parent says my daughter is my friend.
And I just worry about that because Ithink if you view that as a At a level of
equal, there, there's some discomfort forme because I think you're not the friend,
you're the parent meant to guide and tobe able to lead that child to emancipation
and to be, um, you know, their best selvesand, and this or that kind of thing.

(19:37):
When you're a friend, that means thatyou're sharing information that may
not be appropriate for that child.
Um, and so I think that, but alsoI recognize that now my sister, you
know, I'm 52 and my sister is 49.
You know, I consider her a friend.
I consider her as part ofsomeone that I can count on.
She knows all my yuck from highschool, my perm in 8th grade.

(20:01):
She knows all that history.
So, she can fast track some of thethings that I'm struggling with to
say, Well, you're struggling withthat because you wore that perm and
nobody asked you to go to the 8th gradedance because you look like a dork.
Kind of thing.
There's truth in that.
A little bit of humor and so of allpeople in the world my sister can say
that to me Now if my bronze circlefriend says that to me i'd be like

(20:22):
what the heck what's up with you?
That's mean you're no longer my friend.
You're demoted kind of thing.
So that's a that is a All over the placeanswer to say, I think it is like what
who are the relationships and the peoplethat help you become and be and become
your best self who are cheering for you,who are part of your group that makes you

(20:43):
feel the most alive and your best self.
I think.
Finding those friendships that that's theharder part and as you move and you get
older it is challenging I remember havingfriends all of them are having children
and so you try to have these Meaningfulconversations and it turns into sit down.
I can't hit what just a secondAnna I'm telling her that like this

(21:04):
amazing like story about like, youknow My boss getting ready to fire
me into just a second Anna Sit down.
Did I, what did I tell you?
Put that down.
And so it's like your friendshipchanges based on life circumstances too.
. Does anybody else haveany insight on this?
I would love to jump in.

(21:24):
Um, because I think a couple of thethings that Anna said really resonated
for me and I feel like, you know,my sibling is one of my closest
friends and we talked together abouthow that's come to be and that that
wasn't just because we're related.
We've also put the effort in.
We've made the decision,you know, to invest in.
Um, developing and sustainingour relationship so that it can

(21:48):
move into that kind of space.
And so, yeah, I don't thinkthat it's automatic that your
friend or that your family would,um, you know, be your friends.
I think family is part of community.
Um, I don't think that everyone inthe community is necessarily a friend.
You might have acquaintances, friends,family members, you know, and like
all of that together is kind oflike the group that forms community.

(22:12):
And I actually think a lot.
Of the struggles we have nowadays aspeople are struggling to find community
is maybe an expectation that everyone inyour community is going to be a friend.
, but, , in terms of, yeah, it's likethat starting point for friendship
might come from being related.
It might come from being inschool together for a long time.

(22:33):
One of my oldest friends I metwhen I was, you know, we were 10.
Um.
And I think like the criteriaaround how, what is a good friend.
I also found a book to referencewhich is all about love by bell hooks.
And so in one of the first chaptersshe's trying to define what love is to

(22:56):
then be able to talk about it in all ofthese different kinds of contexts and
she talks about the definition of love.
Uh, from a self help book from 1978by M. Scott Peck, uh, that defines
love as the will to extend oneselffor the purpose of nurturing one's
own or another's spiritual growth.

(23:18):
And I feel like that's very much whatAnna just shared, you know, it's like
the people who are your friends arepeople who We'll show up for you, we'll
grow alongside you, um, we'll see youin all of those different phases of your
life and, and still love and accept youalong the way, um, and understand that
you're not always going to be the sameperson as when you met when you were.

(23:39):
10 or 20 or 40 or, you know, whatever.
Um, there needs to bethat evolution, I think.
Um, but I think otherwise, like, thecriteria can be quite personal, you
know, depending on our personalitiesand the things that we seek in our early
lives and our attachment styles and,you know, like, all sorts of stuff that
makes You know, Patricia's definitionof a friend may be different than

(24:01):
mine or Luna's or Sarah's or Anna's.
Who's your oldest friend?
Besides your sibling, how longyou've been friends with this person?
And how has it evolved?
I can go first with a little bit.
Tenny is my oldest friend.

(24:22):
I met her in high school when we were 13.
And, we connected because both ofus loved reading novels, reading
or watching American movies.
And we will spent a lot of time onSaturdays together, . Even though I

(24:43):
moved away, she really puts in theeffort to stay And she's also like my
dealer for Singapore snacks, becauseshe sends three or four boxes a year.
She's one of my closest friendsbecause she knows how to show up.

(25:04):
So who's your oldest friend?
Oldest as in who have youbeen friends with the longest?
Why are you still friends with them?
Or oldest as in age.
I'd be interested to hear if any ofyou have any elders in your life.

(25:25):
Yeah, that's a great, great question.
,I'm trying to think the oldest person that I currently know, am still friends with.
I would have to say it's Lara's mom,Elise, and, it's so interesting

(25:47):
because, you know, when I metElise, like she's Lara's mom, man.
So, uh, naturally there is alittle bit of a power difference.
Um, but we also have our likelittle own budding friendship.
I think Elise is in her.
70s, no 70s.
Correct.
Yeah.
She's in her seventies.
And when I first met, at least I feellike we just were able to chat with

(26:11):
each other as though we're like equals.
And honestly, we have a friendship.
That kind of goes beyond the relationshipthat Lara has with her mom in terms of
secrets being told and, and things that Ican ask and things that Lara cannot ask.
I get, I get some insiderinformation from time to time.

(26:34):
And it's quite nice.
Excuse me, am I not your oldest friend?
Oh, no, you're not.
What the heck?
I'm sorry, I interrupted.
Please continue.
You're not yet my oldest friend,but you're the oldest wisest.
Shall we do this?
Yes, yes.
But I'm also glad to hear thatAnna is a year older than me.

(26:58):
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
Oh, if I, if we were to talk aboutoldest wisest, then, you know, I
definitely have a couple of friendsthat, that are in that category, but
they are like my age or in their fifties.
Um, another friend that I actually, uh,do have, but we haven't been in contact
for a while, um, her name is Sherry, andshe's in her 60s, late 60s, and we met

(27:27):
each other, uh, in a, in a sewing group.
And for three years, we met everyWednesday at a community center, and
we'll each bring our crafts to, to dowhile also like gabbing with each other.
And I really feel like I was in like anauntie sewing group, which is so fun.
And she really makes an effort to connect.

(27:48):
She will, she will call a lot.
She doesn't use the emailor text messaging a lot.
So most of the time, Oh, I hear fromSherry once a week and we'll go for lunch.
And, uh, she will tell me all thethings that are happening in her life.
And I'll tell her thingsthat are in my life.
And we kind of lost contact after Imoved away from Vancouver, because

(28:09):
that's where I used to live.
Um, yeah, but we, we sustained afriendship for quite a while, um, as well.
Um, yeah, I'll stop there for now.
I would like to come back to, to thisdefinition of friend later, because
I have some thoughts over there too.
But I'll let others chime in.
Lara, do you want to go?

(28:30):
Sure.
Um, yeah, I mentioned my oldest friendis, uh, Sarah, we met when we were 10
at a summer art camp doing visual art,um, but we also, uh, went to the same
school, we were in different grades,we had different friend groups during
the school year, and then fostered thisfriendship, um, in the summers, um, And,

(28:57):
um, I like at some point in high school,they were struggling with math and their
mom would give me 20 bucks a week to likesit down and basically figure out how
to get Sarah through their math classbecause I was a grade ahead of them.
And, um, and then you know I movedaway and we still stayed in touch
they were someone that I would alwaysvisit with when I would come home,

(29:18):
you know, during my university yearswhen I was living away from home.
And we haven't.
You know, we we try to make a pointof seeing each other in person.
We're now both in B.
C. They live about four hoursaway, four hour drive away.
Um, but you know, we have very differentlives now and they're in a blended family.

(29:39):
They live rurally.
They have a lot of animals.
Um, But I think, yeah, that, that abilityto grow alongside one another is what
has kept us connected, um, that longhistory that Anna was also speaking to
earlier, you know, like they've seenme through most of my life now, um,

(30:01):
you know, they've met all of my life.
Like, sh shitty partners along theway, and, um, so they can, you know,
remember those different phases of mylife and, like, amplify the the great
things about my relationship with Luna.
They also call me outon my crap, you know?
Like, they'll hold me accountable ifI'm off base, um, on something, and

(30:26):
all of it is done with love and humor.
And a lot of reciprocity.
Um, and we've also been throughsome tough stuff together.
There was a year in our mid twentieswhen they were going through some
really big life transitions, and theyweren't showing up for me in ways
that I wanted and was expressing.

(30:48):
Um, and we didn't talk for about a year.
Um, and, um, and, and that was distancethat they initiated and didn't didn't
tell me like they just kind of ghosted.
Um, and so for a while I didn't know ifI would talk to them again if we would
maintain our friendship or reconnect.

(31:09):
And when they reached out again,it was with a sincere and complete
apology for how they had beenshowing up prior to taking the space.
Um, and, um, they talked about, you know,kind of the work and the reflection that
they had been doing in the time thatwe hadn't been, uh, speaking, and I was

(31:30):
just, like, so overjoyed and relievedthat, um, they had reconnected, and I
was quite satisfied with, uh, you know,their, their response or, you know, what
they were sharing that we were able torekindle and reconnect and continue our
friendship from that point forward, andso I think, like, having a friend That has
known me for over 20 years and that, um,it hasn't always been sunshine and roses,

(31:56):
you know, it mostly has, but, um, we'vealso been through those stickier things.
I think that's what has given ourfriendship a lot of staying power.
Sarah?
I have a couple of friends from schoolthat could like fall under that oldest
category, you know, like the one wouldalways come over for Christmas time

(32:18):
and we would decorate cutouts togetherand stuff like that, and we're still.
In touch, you know, if the weather'sbad up here or down by where she
lives, it'd be like, hey, are you okay?
And that kind of stuff, but it's really.
Surface level kind of stuff,but if it's my oldest, like.
Friend friend, it would be my husband,because we've been together for 26 years.

(32:43):
I had to get the calculatorout to check that.
Um, and and it's a lot of,like, you know, Lara, what you
were just talking about with.
What makes a good friend as far as, like,everything that we've been through and the
growing pains, because we were pretty muchbabies when we got married, which we don't

(33:03):
recommend now that we're older and wiser.
But then also being able to calleach other out and hold each other
accountable and and and see eachother for really difficult stuff.
Like, I've recently left a. Reallyterrible work situation and it took
me 11 years to figure that out.

(33:24):
Um, but it got to the point wherehe had said to me over the summer.
Hey, do you remember when you toldme I needed to leave this situation?
I see I see myself inyou where you are now.
I'm like, somebody with that.
History and understanding of seeingme every day to be able to say, like.
You need to protectyourself that it's time to.

(33:44):
Take care of yourself, like, thatgoes in with my definition of.
Good,
Anna.
Yeah, I think my longest friendshipis with my friend, Susan, who I met
in junior high, which was when it wasabout 12 years old and she has been a
friend for ever and has seen, you know.

(34:06):
Just knows all of my darkest secretsand saw all the things that happened
to me and knows all the things thathappened to me when I was growing up.
And I think that of that friendship,though, just like everyone else has
talked about, it's sort of like fitness.
So, like, if I, I know a good workoutexercise routine for me is to do.
This one, this and this, if I don'twant a muffin top, and if I eat

(34:28):
brownies, then this is going to happen.
If I neglect my health andphysical exercise, I am going to
experience some physical decline.
And so with Susan, I know it's thesame thing as far as like, it's, it's.
It's a genuine love and appreciationfor the history you have, but also
knowing that there has to be somekind of effort and routine to being

(34:50):
able to maintain that relationship.
So I know I'm going to send her anote or check in or call with her.
And like Sarah was saying about thatsurface level and going beyond that
surface level, I feel like sometimesI'm not a good friend for Susan because
I'll talk about this or this or thatbut she'll ask me like so how are you
feeling about this or She'll be come intothe conversations with real Curiosity

(35:14):
about like so you said that you'refine, but you're saying that you're
also You know, in a fetal position,eating Ben and Jerry's ice cream, that
doesn't sound like you're doing okay.
Whereas a normal, or not a normal,but a friend that doesn't have quite
the level of friendship with me,like, you're okay, okay, yeah, you're
okay, that sounds like a normalway to, uh, deal with your stress.

(35:34):
And so, I think that curiosity and justhaving that routine of, like, knowing
I, I care about this relationship.
And so that means I'm goingto have to put in some effort.
And like Lara was saying, whensomeone neglects that, then you're,
I'm assuming, um, if that would havehappened to me, I'd be like, well,
fine, I'm not going to talk to you.
I make assumptions about theirintentions, but lots of times there'll

(35:58):
be times where there's this gap in time.
And so just like what your friendsdid too, I'm going to check it in.
I'm sorry.
And this is why it I'd like to repair therelationship to, because it's Of value to
me and my heart goes out to Sarah becauseI think about that finding the friendships
and going beyond that surface level.
I'm glad you have your husband 27 years.

(36:19):
That's amazing.
I just think that it's hard to makefriends and to be able to go beyond
the surface level and also it's likethat thing where you're like, you
know, again, the fundraising thing whenyou meet with the first time with the
donor, like, Oh my gosh, I love you.
Do you want to do this?
Do you want to?
Oh my gosh, let's make a milliondollar gift together kind of thing.
And they're like, Whoa, it'slike dating the first date.

(36:40):
We're like, okay.
Let's just like figure out, do wehave things in common kind of thing.
So it's that balance of like, and thenwhen you get older too, it's sort of like,
I don't have time to like mess around.
Do you like me or not?
Let's go.
Now I'm curious, whois your newest friend?

(37:02):
Have you made a friend recently?
Okay, recently can be say in the lastfive, eight ish years that you and you
think to yourself, I see potential inthis, we could be good friends, what
I want to get to is, I think as we getolder, it is harder to make friends.
Good.
Solid friends.

(37:22):
Because a bit like what Annais saying, that as we get older
too, people have children, right?
People have responsibilities,job, aging, parents.
So before we get intothat, who is your newest?
You guys.

(37:43):
It's true.
Anna's my newest friend.
How did you meet?
On the podcast, I invitedAnna to be a guest and then
we decided we like each other.
That's awesome.
I can share because I'm unmuted.
My newest friend.

(38:03):
Have like a little bit of like acluster of newer friends that I met
through some of the, um, intuitivedevelopment work that I mentioned that
Patricia and I met through, um, andI'd say maybe the newest friend in
the last year or so that we've kind ofstarted connecting, or two years, we've
started connecting a little bit more.

(38:24):
It's been very slow.
Um, their name is, uh, Alicia and,um, they went on a quest that, um,
I've also been on Patricia's podcastbefore we talked about quests.
So if you want to know aboutthat, I won't talk about it now,
but there's a podcast about it.

(38:46):
So I went on Quest in 2019, uh, andthen in 2024, I supported the group of
people who were doing the same work,and Alicia was one of those people.
And then last year, they invited me to anall, um, queer, uh, hide tanning workshop.
It was like a three dayhide tanning workshop.
There were like 12 of us, and,uh, we had such a great time.

(39:10):
Um, and then more recently now, we've Um,being doing a training course together.
Um, and we like message a littlebit here and there and in between
those events, but actually a lotof our relationship development has
been in person, which feels reallyunusual almost in this day and age.
Um, Like, I've also made some friendsthrough more virtual, um, spaces, um,

(39:36):
but as you ask the question, this is theperson that's coming up for me most now.
And um, I kind of like that it's been,you know, like slow and on its own time.
There's definitely the like excitementof a new person and curiosity.
Um, but it, it's not, like, I don'tnecessarily feel urgency around

(39:57):
it, the way that it's developing.
And I think maybe that's because I have,like, a pretty good crew of friends
already, like, I, I'm not, um, comingfrom a place of scarcity in friendships,
and so it feels maybe different tointentionally develop a new friendship
with someone where there's, there's maybemore choice around that, you know, than

(40:17):
if it was, like, a big lack in my life.
And maybe I would be pursuing them orother people like more consistently
or like, um, with a different kind ofenergy, but I've really enjoyed that.
It's been, uh, yeah, kind of likeslow and steady and a lot of fun.
I'm going to go charm in and head.
I'm going to, I feel I'm going toopen a Pandora's box here right now.

(40:45):
Uh, okay.
This is going to sound a little esoteric.
But my newest friend, as I'm listening toeveryone, uh, talk about this, my newest
friend is the last iteration of who I am.
And I'm going to say that becauseI'm thinking about this sort
of definition of friendship.
Uh, so maybe I'll give a little bit of acontext here, uh, Patricia, when you're

(41:08):
asking about what, how we define friends.
Uh, and what categories they are.
Um, I, uh, use and speak, uh, Mandarinand some other Chinese dialects as well,
and also know how to write, uh, Chinese.
So naturally I've been, uh, kind ofwanting to just go away from the English

(41:31):
definition of what friendship is, becauseI sometimes find it really ambiguous.
And, and there's friends, and there'sacquaintances, and then, you know,
there's, there's all these justdifferent kinds of ways to say friends.
But in Chinese, the, the twocharacters, uh, that's when you
add them together, equals friends.
I put it into the chat.

(41:53):
The first word is Peng,which is a combination of.
two moons.
So you got two moons, you write them inChinese and you put them side by side.
And then the second wordis yo, which is friendly.
So two friendly moons equals a friend.
And I really love that.
Uh, I'm someone who thinksabout the moon a lot.

(42:15):
Hence my name is Luna and something Ithink that's very beautiful and symbolic
about the way that, uh, Chinese peoplewrite out these characters and name
things is that oftentimes it relatesto the bigger world that we're in.
So when I think about two moons, I thinkabout two beings, you know, instead of

(42:36):
being sons, we come together as moons.
And when we meet each other, youknow, we're friendly to each other.
But that's also the part about themoon where, depending on kind of
which cycle you're at, you often beable to see each other's shadows.

(42:56):
So I really think a lot about sortof we think about moon phases.
If we were two moons meeting eachother in the sky in different moon
phases, we'll see each other's lights.
We'll also see each other's dark.
And at different points of time,sometimes we don't see each other at all.
Sometimes we come outreally bright and full.
Um, and I, I love that idea of thinkingabout friendship as, as these sort

(43:20):
of celestial beings that are likehovering in the sky and sometimes
will shine light on each other.
And because oftentimes we're givingeach other that space to see our
shadows, it means that when I'milluminating your shadow, I'm calling
you out, but in a very friendly way.
Um, yeah.

(43:41):
So I really think about,about that term of friendship.
And so why I'm now bringing it back to,to like this, Oh, you know, my newest
friend is the last iteration of myself.
It's also this question of like.
Are we friends with ourselves?
And oftentimes when I go totherapy, uh, you know, one of the
struggles of like self care, selflove, uh, is that it always feels

(44:05):
so monumental to love yourself.
And so in one of my sessions withmy therapist, my therapist was
like, you know, if that sounds tooheavy, how about self friendliness?
I was like, huh, that seemsworkable on a friendship level,
just like, can I be friends with me?
And so, you know, for, for the better partof like the last 10 to 20 years, it's been

(44:28):
a lot of work trying to undo a lot of theself harming and like self befriending.
Like I'm not good enoughto be even my own friend.
And so trying to undo that, uh, givesa different meaning to, to friendship
because I now really also do understand.
That if we can be friends with ourselvesand work on that, we can be friends with

(44:51):
other people, uh, including strangers.
Right.
And I have the saying in myhead going on now, like everyone
is a friend until you're not,
which I feel like it's, it'sso interesting to think about,
think about it that way.
Just like automaticallyget an a until you're not.

(45:15):
And I feel like with, withmy own friend circle, it is.
It has been like that, you know, weall start off friendly and then we
start to see each other's shadow side.
And at some point we cut it offand be like, I can't do it anymore.
Your shadow's too much.
You're no longer a friend.
Anyways, I'll stop there for now.

(45:36):
I would say the nearest person that'sbecome a really close friend is Um,
Nicole, Patricia, you met her whenwe did our little COVID circles.
Um, we met online, um, their mutualfriend had started like a kind of how

(45:57):
do you deal with the loneliness of beinga new mom and we're so isolated and she
actually lives six and a half hours away.
Um, but we put the timein with each other.
Um, I had to go to work conference.
And I was just like, hey, do you wantto meet up and not telling, like,

(46:18):
my family or my parents, I'm goingto go meet an Internet stranger.
We're going to go walkPhiladelphia and we'll see if I
get killed or not kind of thing.
Because they were very like.
Anxious about that kind of stuff,but we walked around for like hours.
After just talking online, like, justdoing that in person and then that just
kind of snowballed into, we took a triptogether and then we started to, um, do

(46:43):
like a girls weekend together and thennow our families hang out together.
So we'll go down there acouple of times a year.
She'll come up here acouple of times a year.
And, um, our kids will play andtheir husbands get along thankfully
because we just kind of forcedeverybody into the situation.
Um, but our relationship has growninto she's somebody that I can go.

(47:07):
Hey, I'm going to go say this reallyugly and appropriate thing because I
don't know where else to process thisand it's not good for me to process this
in this situation or that situation.
And so, like.
You get it and then I receivedthose same things from her and.
Being able to set that spaceaside of, like, okay, I get I

(47:31):
get why this is bothering you.
Like, how do we work through this?
Um, and then she's also the person, shewas the 1st person I was able to come up
with and be like, hey, I'm not straightand I just figured this out about myself
and I'm not, you know, and just feelingsafe and we have our differences is

(47:56):
kind of like your, your shadow thatyou're talking about Luna of like.
Realizing, like, she has some thingsthat kind of great against me and it's
like, okay, but that's on me to learnto accept because I'm sure that I have
my things that I'm grading againsther that are not quite lining up.
But that would be.
That would be my newest friend friends andthen I have a former coworker that, like.

(48:20):
Has that potential there's like, a 15 yearage gap between us, but she's the only 1
since I've left my job, but it's regularlycalled me and reached out and talks to me
and she's leaving today's her last day.
So.
We'll be a little support groupof trauma bonding together.
Well, I just I love this conversation.

(48:42):
Patricia, thank you forbringing us together.
I think that, you know, creatingthese communities to be able to
talk with each other is amazing.
I love Luna.
I was taking pictures of thescreenshots of what you put in the chat.
I think that's beautiful.
And Sarah, congratulations onbeing so courageous and finding
somebody that you could like,Share that to share who you are.

(49:02):
My newest friend.
Um, she's super cool.
She's got these tats all over the placeShe's like she's the person I want to
be and so I kind of stalked her a littlebit just like hey I want you to be my
friend but also realize that that's alittle cray cray, but she and I have
developed a friendship through a Passionproject, uh, collaboration, but she

(49:23):
also recently went through a breakup.
And so I said, what can I do to help?
And how can I support you?
She's like, I'm just so upset.
I just want someone tocome and wash my hair.
I was like, Oh, well,I guess I can do that.
I can wash your hair, but she hadCOVID so I couldn't go over there.
But the fact that I said Iwould go over and wash her hair,
she has never forgotten that.

(49:43):
And so I just think that friendshipwhere the common theme is like.
Showing up and being able to say,Hey, I'm going to be in Pittsburgh.
Do you want to go and hang out?
Or do you want to do tanning?
Which now I know what tanning is.
It's not going to the tanning bed.
It's doing something completelydifferent and learning.
Uh, I just think that showingup part where I'm always

(50:05):
amazed where like, when I say.
Well, how can I support you?
How can I help you?
That's part of that connection.
That is part of this human experiencethat I love the idea to have, like,
finding friendships within highrises to be able to, like, you
know, we live in separate areas.
We go in and out through our doors.
We live our lives in these littleboxes, but then how do we come out and.

(50:26):
Extend the welcome matto say, So, who are you?
How can I help you?
Can I wash your hair?
That might be a little weird ifyou just walk up to someone's
and knock on the door.
But, if they're going through abreakup, they'll probably appreciate it.
Oh, my God, I love that, . SoI was listening to the
podcast, We Can Do Hard Things.

(50:49):
And they had an episode onfriendship recently, and.
The guest said that friendship isto her, friendship is a balance
of deposit and withdrawal.
When I heard that, I thought, ah,that really resonated with me.

(51:11):
Because for me, when I think aboutmy life, the friendships that didn't
work out is because there's a lackof deposit from the other side.
I am curious for your, the nextquestion is, Have you ever broke, broke
up with a friend and what happened?

(51:33):
So you Anna, if you have anything.
So the question is, did I, haveI ever broken a friend, broke,
broke up, broken up with a friend?
Oh, broken up with a friend, like afriendship just when that you thought,
Oh, this is a good friendship.
And then it was like, no, like I needto let you go or it just ended badly.

(51:53):
Yeah, well, I've had a couple offailed relationships, uh, that have
ended that way, uh, where I havea thing where I've called bless
and release, where I bless you.
I wish you all the best in the world,but I release you from my life.
Uh, and, uh, and then actually came froma friend who broke up with me, uh, so
that it was, um, a situation where shefelt that I had made more withdrawals

(52:18):
than deposits, and that I also think I'veIt's a hard for me to think about that
way with friendships and relationshipsas transactional, but I get that too.
I think the deposits andwithdrawals for me is trust.
So you can make a, you know, if youmake a withdrawal and I, you deplete
the trust bank, then that's harder forme to have a relationship with you.

(52:39):
Sometimes I think it's just like havingthe relationship and friendship is
like, you don't have to do anything.
You know, you are my friend or I justwish you all the best kind of thing but
I think those breakups are difficultbecause when she broke up with me Uh, and
the, she named all the reasons why shewas not happy with me and I had talked

(52:59):
about, well, you know, the menu here,you can pick or choose, but I can't help
that this appetizer is, I'm always late.
So that's the appetizer you're going toget if you're going to get this menu.
And so if you don't want this menu,I guess you're going to have to go to
another restaurant, which is probablya terrible way to say basically, okay.

(53:20):
I'm not your cup of tea,got it, kind of thing.
Uh, and so it's very painful when youhave that breakup from a person that I,
who said, I love you like a sister tosay this friendship no longer exists.
And, you know, as an adoptee too,that taps into all the abandonment
issues, the rejection issues.
Uh, and so, You have to get to a pointwhere I loved what Luna talked about,

(53:42):
like, okay, the self love, self friendly.
I think I'm a pretty goodfriend and do I love myself?
Then, then if I understand my inherentworth, then when I'm rejected like that,
I can go back to, you know, it's notthe greatest, but also I have value,
I have worth, and then move on kindof thing, and I bless and release.

(54:03):
She's blessed and released me,and I blessed and released her.
There's no, yeah, I don't know, I wantto say that there's not hurt and that
you can move on, but it really doessuck, and, and that is part of the human
experience, is that those changes andthose rejections, like, how am I, how do
I choose to move forward with that andbring that into another relationship?

(54:26):
I am always going to be probably late.
Sorry, it's just I try.
I really, really do try.
Um, and I, but I mean,that's just the thing.
I'm a procrastinator.
I sometimes eat with my mouth open,which my nieces pointed out to me.
So when I eat tortilla chips,it's like cookie monster.
So maybe you don't want to be my friend.

(54:46):
I don't know, kind of thing.
I, does that mean that Ishould not do self improvement?
Yes, I do need to do selfimprovement, but there are some
things I just probably can't change.
I want to chime in here in a sensethat I do agree that there are
some things that we can't change.
And also with the deposit transactionpiece, when this woman was talking in the

(55:09):
podcast, she did talk about it more asin, we give and take, you know, sometimes
we go to our friends for support and.
She said that the unbalance and what Ifeel when there's an unbalance is when
people or this particular friends alwaystake but then when you have a hard time,
they can't, they cannot support you.

(55:33):
And I'm also a firm believer.
This is where my therapist hatcomes in is that I'm a firm believer
that No, we cannot just rely on onefriend to fulfill all our needs.
You know, this is why it is helpful tohave, I always think about this, you're
lucky if you have three friends you cancall at 2am if things are not going well.

(55:58):
Unfortunately, a lot of us don't have it.
A lot of people think they have a lotof friends because of social media,
but a lot of people don't have itand this is why I always encourage.
My clients to build community becauseif we are expecting one friend to
fulfill all the needs, that's not fair.
And also with what Anna was saying,too, that this friend that said, oh,

(56:22):
you, you, you're not a good friendbecause of X, Y, Z. I also think, I
think it's easier when we get older, butAre we telling our friend that we need
something, and they're not giving it tous because sometimes we have unrealistic
expectations, or even we hit we haveexpectations right like in Anna's case

(56:46):
when you were saying, but if one of myexpectation was Anna, if I say I'm meeting
you at 10 o'clock at the coffee shop,I expect you to be there by 10, 10, 15.
But if you're not there, I'm out of there.
So I think open communication is great.
But I also know, Anna, if you're going tobe half an hour late, I show up at 10 30,
which is what I did to my best friend,Tenny, when we were in high school.

(57:07):
She was an hour and a half late.
The next time I showed up anhour and a half late, and lo
and behold, she was on time.
Have friends like that, and we're justlike, oh, they operate on their own time
zone, and so like, I mentally go, okay,if I want to be doing this at this time,
I need to add this many minutes, andthat's the time I give them, and then

(57:30):
we'll all show up at the right time.
It's just easier.
I have a kind of thing here that Ihave broken up with a friend that,
um, it was kind of like a. A vampiresituation, like, it was just so

(57:50):
much energy was dumped into it.
And and she, I think we stayedfriends for as long as we did
because she would reach out.
How's this going?
How is this going?
Um, you know, I remember that youmentioned this work situation.
How is that?
And as soon as I answered, I would get10 to 15 text messages at a time about
everything that was going on in her life.

(58:11):
And there was neveranything good happening.
There's just years of.
Of of doing this and feelinglike I had to be there and
supporter and stuff like that.
And it was just got to a point in mypersonal life where I had so much.
Happening my husband and Iwere in a really rough point.

(58:32):
We weren't even sure if we're goingto stay together and stuff like that.
And it's like, I can't.
I don't have any room inmy life for anything else.
I can't listen.
I can't do anything.
And it was really interestingbecause I just kind of stops.
Um, I was overwhelmed.
I was not in a healthy mental andemotional space and she also went away and

(58:56):
it was just kind of like, oh, I actuallydidn't mean all that much to begin with.
It was just kind of this.
Like, I was just a place for herto dump and she probably found
somebody else, um, to dump on.
Um, but Patricia related to what you saidabout, like, having different types of
friends that This is the hardest thingthat Dave and I have had to navigate.

(59:16):
This is like, how come you're notinterested in this and how come
you're not interested in thisso much wine for best friends.
And if we were interested inthe same thing, we would be
really bored with each other.
Like, I need new input.
I want you to be interested in something.
I'm not so I can live vicariously for you.
And I don't have to do whatever thatthing is that that sounds perfect.
Um, but also, like, having peoplethat fill those different needs

(59:42):
and can be just as excited.
Like, there's.
a Facebook group for my favorite band.
And like, we will all meet up atconcerts and like, that's an energy
that like, I am never going to getout of my actual friend cycle at
all, because we're all super fans.
And like, that's, that's what we like.
And so it's just really important tofind those people, even if it's just
this really tiny pocket that they serve.

(01:00:04):
To to fill in
a chime in here.
Uh, I love I love all that Laraand I actually have started to, uh,
have our circle of friends who wego to concerts with quite a bit.
And really, really enjoying that,uh, cause I love, I love live music.

(01:00:26):
I love live performances andI'm, it's always the dream to go
to a concert with someone thatshares that interest with you.
So, so I really, I reallyenjoy that bit of it.
Um, I'm sure this deposits and withdrawalthing is making me think about throwing
in the conversation about abilityand the economics of friendship.

(01:00:50):
And so when you talk aboutdeposits and withdrawals, I was
like, what about foreign exchange?
Like, if I was like Mexican pesos and youare the U S dollar, then we're not really
on like an equal sort of like standard.
It means that you can give alittle bit to the friendship.
Well, I have to give a lot to meetthat equal balance of that friendship.

(01:01:14):
And I think that this is a veryreal thing that I've experienced.
Especially in relationship totalking about coming from localized
French friend making to regionalinternational friend making a thing
that the truth of it for me is thatit's become, you know, is as expensive
as it is to afford a relationship,you know, to afford having kids.

(01:01:41):
I think the same applies to havingfriends is that the economics of it.
Uh, sometimes makes it very difficult and,and I have friends who are differently
able, I'm a neurodiverse person andSarah, when you're talking about mental
capacity, even like, these are thethings that I really struggle with.

(01:02:03):
And I also see other people strugglewith in terms of this conversation
of trying to maintain a friendship.
And so that's, that's thegive and take for sure.
And then the ability to like maintainthat friendship on a level which makes
both of us feel like it's equal reallydoes feel like the foreign exchange.

(01:02:24):
That some of us are currenciesthat are not that high worth.
And so it really takes a lot forus to like maintain that level of
friendship that the other person wants.
Um, and you know, I, I think aboutfriends who we are able to like adjust
and let go of like the, the things thatthey cannot do to meet that friendship.

(01:02:46):
And I think, and when you're talking abouthow that deposit and withdrawal was trust,
uh, it, it then brings me to think about.
The deposits and withdrawals as worth,how, how we perceive that wordiness of
the other person in terms of meetingour friendship standards, um, requires

(01:03:08):
us to really learn what it means toadapt, to adjust our expectations.
And I love to share, like the storyyou're saying about, you know,
I, and I started to adapt and nowwe'll be an hour and a half late
and Lord and behold, she was there.
And I think that's a very beautifulkind of intimacy that when we want

(01:03:28):
to build solid friendships, I thinkthat's the kind of, again, bringing
back to the moon and the shadow, that'sthe kind of shadow intimacy that,
that I really see, um, happening.
Um, when I hear people talk aboutreally solid, good friends, you
know, we're able to adjust that.
We're able to be like.
Even though I'm the British, I'm the Euroand you're the like Malaysian ringgit,

(01:03:54):
you know, I am willing to adjust itso that we can be equal, but that that
relationship requires, I think, work.
And I think a lot of, a lotof people who want to stay
friends ought to go to therapy
to, to help, to really, like,it takes a village, right.
To really help create that balancebecause we cannot rely on, on each other

(01:04:18):
only to communicate these hardships.
Sometimes we do need relationshipexperts or like people who can
help us put that into perspective.
Luna, the, the foreign currencyexchange thing it makes a lot of sense.
And here's my thing.

(01:04:41):
Okay, here's the thing, right?
We understand that, especiallysince COVID, a lot of people
don't have capacity, right?
And it's fair.
And also, like you say, some people areneurodivergent, some people, they have a
disability or they have aging parents and

(01:05:02):
And I believe that we canbe as understanding as and
as compassionate about that.
, But where I've kind of settled inthe last few months, too, is that
okay, if I know that my frienddoesn't have the capacity, then I
need to shift my expectations, right?

(01:05:23):
So then maybe I go to Sarah for someNeeds I go to Anna for some needs
that I don't go to Lara, Lara or Lunabecause I know they don't have capacity.
But this is where my littledevil comes to mind is that

(01:05:45):
coming from a collectivist culture andLuna and I have talked about this before
coming from a collectivist culture.
You learn, you, you are expected to showup for each other and the joke I often
use is that if your cousin is moving housetomorrow, your mother comes here and goes,
10am you show up and you don't sit thereand look at your mother and goes, Oh no,

(01:06:09):
I have a date with my friend, your motheris like, no, no, 10am you show up with
the lorry and bring your brother with you.
So there is an expectation thatyou show up for each other.
What I still have a hard timeunderstanding often in the Western culture
is . In the Western society, especiallyin Canada, in the States, there's

(01:06:34):
often talk of let's build community.
But do we really know what thatlooks like if we don't know
how to show up for each other?
Lara, you're shaking your head.
Yeah, I feel like I mentioned thisearlier, like, I think there's like
this, like, utopia of what communityis in, like, Western, you know, late

(01:06:58):
stage capitalism, everything's on firesetting where it's like, well, if we
had community, then like, everythingwould be like hunky dory and like,
you know, Uh, you know, sunshinesand roses and it's like, no, actually
there would be still a lot of conflict,but like you would stick with it.
Um, and, and also, like, you wouldunderstand that, like, there's some

(01:07:20):
people in your community that you don'treally jive with, and then there are your
people that you do jive with that willsupport you, but, like, you still might
have to go and help the, that personthat you don't jive with do a thing,
and I think, like, that's where thingsbreak down in this current day and age
is, like, if you Aren't exactly on thesame page about everything and like you

(01:07:42):
agree on all your principles and valuesor whatever, like how to do a thing, then
like everything just kind of dissolves.
And then like, you have lesscommunity than what you started with.
I think people who come from collectivistcultures, from what I've seen and
experienced and like what you've sharedwith me, Luna and Patricia, and my dad
also, like Egypt is a very collectivist,um, country or like a culture.

(01:08:08):
Um, and he, I think has likereally enjoyed leaving that and
having a little bit more agencyand independence and in Canada.
Um, but like the.
Sense of belonging that comeswith community, even if it's
also, uh, exhausting emotionallyis, um, I think it's very real.

(01:08:30):
And I will also qualify, I just said,like, um, you know, Canada and the
West, like, I think, um, a place wherethere's a lot of collectivism and
community and support, um, on theselands as an Indigenous communities
and, like, yeah, you They're reallycomplex, you know, like it's, and it's
kind of what I said, like, from whatI've experienced being in community

(01:08:52):
and connection with Indigenous folks,like, there's conflict, there's support,
there's joy, there's hardship in thosesmaller pockets of, you know, Indigenous
communities within this, like, Biggeroverarching like capitalist chaos that
we're dealing with like white supremacyand all that, all that fun stuff.

(01:09:13):
Um, so I don't, yeah, I feel likeI drifted a little bit, but I
think, um, community is something.
That the most marginalized peoplehave the most practice in currently,
and like we have a lot to learn fromfolks who are showing up with, you

(01:09:35):
know, the little resources that theyhave as much as they can, and, um, and
not necessarily being friends in theprocess, but like still figuring it out.
Sarah, you share something.
I think really of value in the chat.
Will you talk more about that?
Yeah.
I, I grew up in, in a ruralcommunity, um, where it was exactly

(01:10:00):
what you're talking about, Lara.
If like you, you show up, you showup for the burn raising, you show
up because there's a house fire, youshow up because somebody needs it.
Um, all of the home healthnurses knew everybody, everybody,
everybody was taken care of.
Um, in a way that when I moved outof that little bubble, like, as much

(01:10:20):
as, like, there wasn't a friendships,there was still the, like, we're
looking out for each other becausethere isn't anybody else nearby.
Literally, like, your neighboris probably a couple miles away.
Um, I don't see that having leftthat and that's just like, sometimes
I'm like, oh, maybe I need to moveback out into the country because.
Um, there just isn't that same connectionand I think some of it is a mix of, um,

(01:10:46):
expecting to be friends and expecting thepeople in your community to be perfect.
And, and we can't be and, and, and youmight have voted in a way that I don't
think you should have voted, but like,I don't want your house to burn down.
I don't want you to go hungry.
I don't like I, we still gotto look out for each other.
And then, um.
The flip side of that is what myhusband and I are running into trying

(01:11:08):
to build community in our 40s is, um,
I'm busy or yeah, I'll show up.
Oh, I, you know, we got sick.
We got tired where wehad a really long week.
We had a little whatever.
And like, there's just notthis commitment to connect with
anybody for any reason anymore.

(01:11:29):
And it's.
The busyness excuses is really hard forme because like I'm busy too and I'm also
inviting you to my house for a game nightbecause we need to know each other and
I don't, yeah, I don't have a solutionfor that, but it's been on my mind a lot.
Now you tell me you don'thave a solution for this.
Come on, Sarah.

(01:11:51):
If I figure it out.
Yeah, we're like an hour ishinto this podcast and we're
like, actually, we have no idea.
I am aware of the time.
Last question.
I would love to know if y'all haveany advice on how to make friends

(01:12:14):
, where do you go to find friends?
And second question, how doyou maintain that friendship?
Well, I think first that you, I likewhat Luna said to you, you have to
like, Love yourself and be friends withyourself first, and I remember when
my sister went through a breakup, andthen she was like Starting to date.
I'm like well.

(01:12:35):
I think that you need to find out.
What do you like first?
What are the things that you like to do?
Do you like to hike because youwould go out on a date with somebody
like I like hiking I'm like do you?
I don't think you do.
Uh, and so I think it,I'm just calling her out.
She's probably going to listen toit and be like, I do like hiking.
Uh, anyway, that's another podcastepisode, but I, I really think it

(01:12:56):
is like finding out what do youlike to do and then showing up to
the places that you like to do.
If you do like to hike,go find a hiking group.
If you like birding, go find a bird group.
And that, that makes it less uncomfortablethan saying, what do I like to do?
And then trying to find out.
And then not doing it or doing thingsthat you don't really like to do.

(01:13:17):
So being honest with yourself first.
What do you like to do?
Who are you?
Figure that out andthen go do those things.
I think my, um, friend that wroteKaren Riddle wrote Friendship Matters.
She wrote a whole book on like how tolike meet friends and to maintain friends.
There's all sorts of bookslike that can do that.
But I, I just think, um, just fallin love with yourself, fall in like

(01:13:40):
with yourself, fall in friendshipwith yourself, and then go out there
and do the things that you love.
Um, and to maintain it, I would just sayall the things that we've talked about,
like wash a person's hair, go for a walk,go like say, Hey, I'm busy, but can I go?
Can we go grocery shopping together?
I think being creative like I thinkthere's like I like to streamline

(01:14:03):
things Okay, well, you're super busy ifyou're like taking care of your child.
Can I come over?
I'm not going to change the diapers.
I find that gross, but I will sitthere and give you the powder I'll
make you a cup of tea and just try todo those kind of things where you're
like getting things done And thenconnecting that would be My advice,
I sound a little harsher than that.

(01:14:23):
It's because I'm thinking of mysister saying, I do like hiking.
Just to add on to that, this is, it'sso funny because one of my, so in
Vancouver,, one of the things I keephearing from a lot of the younger friends
is that it's so hard to find a partner.
And one of my clients, she's great.
We always have a good laugh.

(01:14:44):
And she said to me, one of the newthings , in Vancouver, now to find
a partner is to join running groups.
And I say to this client, I'm like, wait,do these people actually love running?
She's like, no, no, they all haterunning, but they're just showing
up in their tights and theirhat and their Lululemon jacket.
And then they're going running.

(01:15:05):
. They're all huffing and puffing.
And then they look miserable.
I'm like, okay, no, maybewe should not do that.
Everybody takes.
Anna's advice.
, Sarah, go for it.
You know me, I'm dying becauseYou cannot pay me to run.
I'm not running with you andI'm not doing a puzzle with you.

(01:15:25):
And, and sorry, I'll be therewith a bottle of water afterwards.
We're not, that's nothow we're hanging out.
Um, Nicole and I, being so far apart, wehave definitely called each other and like
gotten errands done, gotten tasks done.
And like, we don't evennecessarily talk the whole time,

(01:15:46):
but she's like, look at me.
I'm so productive becauselike, there's just.
Somebody there to like, helpyou get through the tasks that
maybe you're putting off a littlewhile or, or things like that.
Um, I would add to what Anna'ssaying, as far as like making
friends of being vulnerable and,and putting yourself out there.

(01:16:08):
And I'm saying this as advice thatI need to take, because I'm not
good at it, but like, you know, justas simple as like, trying to leave
comments on people's like Instagram.
And then I'm like, Oh,nope, delete, delete.
I, nobody wants to hearfrom me kind of thing.
Um, or this weekend I got invited to,um, sell some pottery at a, at a shop

(01:16:30):
and like, everybody was just so chilland the woman who ran the shop was.
Um, but I just went up to herafterwards and was like, Hey,
I'd, I'd like to be friends.
I'd like to hang out morebecause like, you're really cool.
And this was a great two dayexperience and, and I'm coming out

(01:16:55):
of a almost decade of like selfisolation because of a lot of.
Different personal things going on andtrying to figure out how to make friends
again and so like, could we hang out andshe could say no and she could say yes,
but like taking that minute to be risky,I guess that that helps make friends.
I hope we'll see.

(01:17:16):
Did she say yes?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I got invited to her birthday party.
Yeah, good job, Sarah.
Uh, Lara?
Yeah, I think, I, I agree witheverything that's been shared so
far, and I think that what I wouldadd, maybe kind of in the maintaining

(01:17:36):
friendship, uh, part, because wehaven't talked as much about that.
Um, is the yeah, it's like that, likeunderstanding what your expectations
are and understanding what your friendsexpectations are for you and then, um,
being true to that and communicating whenyou can't be, I think that, like, for

(01:17:58):
me, I would much prefer for someone tosay, you know, hey, I know that you said
that you really enjoy getting a text fromme once in a while, or like, whatever
the expectation is, like, actually,right now, I'm finding that really hard.
Can I send you a voice note in aweek or like, you know, whatever
it is, like, maybe if you can't dosomething, then offer an alternative,

(01:18:19):
as opposed to just not doing it.
And that takes, you know, energy andcommitment and like work as well.
Um, but I think that.
Uh, figuring out those, like, if notthis, then what can also work for us?
Like having those kinds ofconversations as part of maintaining
a friendship is really important.
And I also think there's somethingabout like frequency of connection

(01:18:42):
of like figuring out for yourself,like how often you actually want
to connect with certain people.
For some people, it might be a coupleof times a week for some people.
It might be.
Once a month, and that's great.
And like, there's no, um, youknow, there's the friendships
that you speak to folks less oftenare no less valuable for that.

(01:19:04):
If you're feeling, um, served andlike, loved and supported, um.
In those ways.
So I feel like thoseare some of the things.
Um, and then yeah, I think like the,the area, the kind of meeting new
people through shared interests.
I think that's a really good way to go.
Um, at least as a starting point and thenfiguring out your values alignment and

(01:19:27):
your personality kind of connections.
Um, after that,
kudos to everythingthat everyone has said.
Uh, the only thing I'mgoing to add is going to be
think about what kind of friendsyou actually really want.
I think that there's a, there's a kindof pressure that we all face when, you

(01:19:49):
know, we think, we think about like havingfriends, sometimes I feel like I hear
people going like, Oh, I have no friends.
I'm a loser.
And, and that to me feels a littlebit heartbreaking because, because
that shouldn't be the case.
And, um, I like to think oflike friendship often as also

(01:20:09):
going beyond and beyond humans.
Um, because, you know, I'm going tosound like very hippie about this,
but the thing is really true as we'relike learning what it means to be
connected to the lands that we're on.
Uh, we have to recognize thatfriendship doesn't necessarily
always just mean human people.
Sometimes we have to go to the nonhuman, uh, friends to find human friends.

(01:20:32):
So, like, you know, what Anna wastalking about, if you like birds,
go, like, be friends with the birds.
And then from being bird friends,you'll find, like, people friends.
And I think that's really true,that we don't always have to
seek out, um, other people first.
I sometimes feel like there's thisintricate connection between, like,
knowing where we find joy, um,in, uh, trees, whether it's in the

(01:20:58):
ocean or whether it's in activitiesor games that we play, that.
Uh, when we're there in likevery joyful selves, then, you
know, friends will show up.
Uh, I mean, it's easier said than done,of course, but I truly also believe that,
uh, we have been sort of like shapedinto thinking that, oh, you know, if

(01:21:20):
we don't have friends, we are losers.
We are like not worthy of,of like being a human being.
And so the whole, likelooking for friends script.
Has become so model after that and toadd on to it too, I find it oftentimes.
When people say, I want to have afriend, it actually feels like they

(01:21:43):
need a therapist because they'relooking for a friend to dump their
trauma on so that they can have someoneto talk to, which I also see happen
quite often and people trauma born andthen they find out that they actually
cannot have a kind of friendshipthat goes beyond that trauma bonding,
which I find like, you know, Sometimeswe need to be very clear about it.

(01:22:06):
Like I've learned that if I need to traumathem, I better off to go to a therapist.
You know, so that I can havea friendship with someone
that's not just based on that.
Because it, it, it, it's likethe withdrawals are so fast.
Sarah, you talk about the vampire effect.
And that's oftentimes where I find Iget depleted the fastest is when trauma

(01:22:28):
is the only thing we talk about painis the only thing we connect through.
Um, and I see that happening wherepeople just want to connect out
of loneliness and pain and grief.
Uh, but they don't have a therapist, theydon't, uh, are not able to go to therapy.
And that then like puts a lotof pressure on the friendship.
Of expectations of like,you're not showing up.

(01:22:50):
I guess we're not friends.
You don't care about me.
Um, so yeah, I think like just thosecouple of points going beyond human
friends is great and going to whereyou're celebrated, where you find joy
is great and, and also learning howto deal with rejection, fundamental.

(01:23:11):
I'm someone with, um, I have ADHD and Ialso have rejection sensitivity disorders.
So rejections are verydifficult, but it really.
It means like a lot of self friendlinessor self loving and like practicing what
that getting over that rejection part.
Yeah, I'll stop there.

(01:23:33):
I just want to add maybe one last thing,which is, um, like something I've been
thinking about a lot in this day and age.
Like we've all talked, I think todayabout meeting at least one friend online.
And I think that that's so incredible.
Um, and there's a lot of like.
Um, but there could be some valuejudgments around online friendships as

(01:23:54):
like, less valuable, less real, lesstrue, um, they're also more accessible
for a lot of people, um, and, uh,something that I've been thinking about
a lot recently is like, in generationspast, you know, people would maybe be.
Yeah.
Like get married and move away andlike they their friendships that they

(01:24:15):
had grown up with in their town wherethey like might go back to visit once
or twice in their lifetime, they wouldstay in touch with through mail, they
would stay in touch with through phonecalls when phones became a thing.
And so like, I've been also thinkingabout in my life like I have moved
around a little bit I have friends thatare scattered around different places.
And.

(01:24:35):
Um, those friendships that I havemaintained with people farther
away, I kind of think about inthat way, you know, like, sometimes
the people who are farthest awaymight still be the people who know
you best and support you the most.
Um, and, um, and yeah, so I think, like,as we're talking about, like, how do you
make friends, like, I think that makingfriends online is super legitimate and,

(01:24:57):
like, all of us here are proof of that.
Um, and so for folks who are maybefeeling like a lot of their connections
are, you know, through those, um,media and like feeling maybe like
that lack or that loss of in personfriendships, maybe there's a balance of.
building some community where you are,where you're maybe not friends with

(01:25:20):
everyone, you know, around you, but youhave some human to human connection,
um, and those supports that we weretalking about earlier, but maybe your
people are a little bit farther away.
I think that that's also reallyvaluable and important and, and just,
yeah, I want to be careful about likedevaluing, uh, virtual connections
in the ways that like, there's a lotof narrative around that right now,

(01:25:42):
and I think it's kind of nonsense.
Oh, I agree.
That's how Sarah and I met.
Yeah, and Nicole and I, too, we metonline first, and it's one of those,
like, I'm not going to find people in,that have the same interests that I do,
um, where I live, necessarily, or, orthey do, but, like, they're not as deep

(01:26:08):
into it as I am, or, or things like that.
So, like, trying to, to find those,those people, like, They're not
they're not living on my street.
They're not living inmy village necessarily.
Um, but then I want to beable to call my neighbors.
Like, if we're stuck in 7 feet of snow,which we definitely have that experience.

(01:26:33):
Yeah, and just as we come to an endjust tying it together to I love
what Luna said to is that friendsdoesn't have to be a human person in
the beginning, even though I thinkhuman connection is really important.
I really truly believe that I reallydo believe that, but a lot of People,

(01:26:56):
especially immigrants are lonely.
They don't have family around, right?
And in somatic therapy world to the top,the one of the ideas is that to regulate,
you can go to nature, you can go to,um, an animal for regulation to be seen.

(01:27:17):
Because rather than if you're justfocusing on the human connection in
the beginning, If you don't have that,you, you, you might feel more alone,
you know, and, uh, yeah, I really dothink that if you don't have the human
connection, you, yes, you want to makean effort to build community, but then

(01:27:41):
go to nature for now, go to the ocean,put your feet in the ocean, go hug a
tree, you know, go say hi to an animal.
Yeah.
Anybody have any last word?
Listeners, I wish y'all canread the chat because Luna just
put in hot pot for regulation.
I totally agree with that.
And dim sum people.

(01:28:02):
Let's go for dim sum andmixed tapes and letters.
Yes.
. Yes, . All the thingswe need to bring back.
Letters and pen pals
.Thank you my friends.
This is so great.
Thank you so much.
This has been so fun.
Thank you, everybody.

(01:28:22):
Love you.
Love you, too.
Thank you for listening today.
If this podcast means something toyou, it would mean so much to me.
If you'd be willing to take 30seconds to do these three things.
First, can you please followor subscribe to this podcast?

(01:28:44):
Following helps you because you willnever miss an episode, as you can tell,
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(01:29:08):
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(01:29:31):
The conversations with your ChineseAuntie podcast is created and
hosted by me, Patricia Petersen,your Chinese Auntie YiYi.
And recorded on the uncededand ancestral lands of the
xʷməθkwəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh(Squamish),and Səl̓ílwətaʔ/Selilwitulh
(Tsleil-Waututh) Nations.

(01:29:52):
Commonly known as Vancouver, Canada.
You can also find out more aboutme on my website patriciapetersen.
ca that's p a t r i c i a p e t e r s e ndot c a and do sign up for my newsletter.

(01:30:15):
I send maybe two or three out a year.
Be good to yourself.

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