Navigating Grief and Death with Andrea Sexton Dumas

In this episode of 'Conversations with Your Chinese Auntie,' I, your Chinese Auntie, engage in a heartfelt conversation with Andrea Sexton Dumas, an end-of-life doula and grief gardener. We discuss Andrea's profound work with grief and death, her background and upbringing, and the emotional intricacies of tending to those at the end of life.

The episode explores themes of self-worth, internet presence, ancestral connection, the need for community, and how people deal with grief and mortality. It's a reflective and insightful discussion that sheds light on embracing life, death, and the spaces in between.

Andrea's Bio: Andrea Sexton Dumas (she/her) is her grandmother's child. She's an end-of-life doula, grief gardener, lifelong storyteller, and certified clinical hypnotherapist. Her podcast, Recipes for Grief: Heartfelt Storytelling for Feel-y Foodies, examines the relationship between loss and nourishment.    Andrea's website   Sign up for my Newsletter   In this episode, Andrea talks about Carmen's Joy Book. Check out Carmen's Numinous Network to learn more.    Timeline: 00:00 Introduction to the Podcast 00:30 Meet Andrea Sexton Dumas 01:24 The Joybook Experience 02:29 Navigating the Internet and Self-Worth 03:54 The Struggle with Online Presence 05:25 Personal Reflections on Social Media 09:04 Andrea's Background and Ancestry 09:38 Understanding the Role of a Grief Gardener 22:30 End of Life Doula Explained 35:38 Cultural Perspectives on Death and Grief 44:22 Navigating Life's Challenges 45:52 Connecting with Ancestry 48:24 The Importance of Grief 53:09 Friendships and Emotional Support 01:06:23 Legacy and Remembrance 01:11:33 Self-Care and Nourishment 01:20:20 Conclusion and Farewell

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to the conversationswith your Chinese auntie podcast.
I am Patricia Petersen,your Chinese auntie.
You can also call me Yi Yi.
In this podcast, I have interesting,compelling, and thoughtful conversations
with BIPOC folks, Black, Indigenous,people of color folks about life.

(00:24):
My intention for this podcast isto give voice to people of color
and learn more about their lives.
In this episode, I talkto Andrea Sexton Dumas.
We talk about her work as a death doula.
And you'll hear in this episode,we actually started talking about

(00:46):
the internet and social media.
Andrea and I were already chattingfor a little bit before I hit
record, but this part was so good.
I thought I'll hit recordand share it with you all.
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
It's Good morning.

(01:07):
Good morning, Patricia.
For the listeners, Andrea and Ihave been talking for a while.
So we're talking about SEO and internetand putting ourselves out there.
And Andrea has something to say.
Go ahead.
Yes, I have something to say.
So I have been doing Carmen's joy book.

(01:29):
Procedure.
Um, I actually started it.
I did it nine years ago.
And this, that was a nine year.
This is a nine year.
And so my astrology said,what were you doing back then?
And when I look back at my journal,I did joy book for the entire year.
And a lot of the things that I plantedthose seeds back then consuming

(01:52):
less meat, giving up alcohol,like these are actual changes that
I've been able to make in my life.
So So I got really excited and I'm like,I'm going to do Joybook again this year.
So I started doing Joybook again,which is a program that is, you know,
it's, it's really about prosperity andreworking your relationship with money.

(02:13):
And so you're quote unquote payingyourself for things that you don't get
paid for, like but that you love, likewatering the plants or petting the cat.
I must have said, I did thejoy book all of January.
So just a couple of days ago, Irealized working on my personal

(02:34):
website was not even on the list.
It wasn't even something that I waslike, Oh, you should be rewarded
for working on your own website.
And I've got the list is forever long.
I've got all kinds of things on there.
So there's something going onunderneath the surface about
self worth and being seen.

(02:57):
That is, it's a top of mind for me.
What about podcasting?
Is that on your list?
It might not be.
I think it is.
I think it is, but it'snot even the highest value.
You know, when you, when youlist out all of the things that
you're paying yourself for.

(03:19):
Once I realized I'm, I'm,I'm taking notes in my notes.
So I'm like, Ooh, you should getpaid more for this item or wow.
So, what's going on with this, Andrea?
So I'm talking to myself as I'm realizingthat most of the things I value about
myself are how I'm giving to others,as opposed to the joy of podcasting,

(03:42):
because I love a good conversation.
And as an end of life doula, as agrief gardener, I do think I have
things that might be helpful to people.
And I, I never post aboutmy website on Instagram.
I'm just, I don't know.
I got to get it together.
So thank you for the, for the Aries nudge.

(04:05):
I do get the whole internet thing.
Yeah, I get what you're saying is that
it's almost as if it'sa whole different realm.
Mm hmm.
Right.
And this is my opinion.
I find some people either feel likeit's a, especially their own website.

(04:29):
It's like, this is who I am.
Hmm.
That's what in social media accounts.
They put 100 percent of them outthere and then some of them, we also
know don't because it's all fake.
They're trying to sell you the idea.
And I think for those of us whoare a little bit more careful.

(04:53):
It's not a bad thing, right?
Because I do believe that for those ofus who do the work that we do, you know,
whether it's with podcasting or your workon my work is that our society is we need
to have a website so people can find us asocial media account people can find us.

(05:15):
We also need to be real.
But I also think we alsoneed to have some privacy.
Yes.
Right?
Yeah.
So, I get your struggle because it's like,how much of myself do I put out there?
And how much do I hold back?
That's right.
Right?

(05:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like I said, face to face, Iwill say one thing that I'm noticing
also about myself is when I amface to face, I don't hold back.
I tend to just Be my full self, but I usemy intuition in the moment to gauge how
much, you know, how, how silly can I get?

(05:58):
Is this person going to react if I cuss?
All of this is happening underneaththe surface and you can't, it's
harder to do that when you're postingon the internet or on social media.
Um, and even on my website.
So I actually just met someone who,um, Offered to video me because I think

(06:20):
if I can just talk I'll just be morenatural than trying to type out my bio
and trying to be really professionalI'm like, I don't talk like that,
but I am a good writer so there's athere's also a disconnect of like I
want you to feel like you actuallyhave a sense of me and Really who I
am not the internet version of Andrea.

(06:43):
So it's it's tricky.
It's so tricky It is.
And I think for me,
I mean, as a consumer, I like itwhen I can see videos or pictures
of people's personal life.
Like, I don't need to see youlike the intimate stuff but like

(07:04):
you're having a cup of coffee.
You're out walking your dog in the car.
Yeah, because then I thinkit makes us more human.
And.
It's not so much a,

(07:26):
which for me, as a therapist, I seethe danger of social media in the sense
that a lot of people look at people onsocial media, like we're talking about
those six figure coaches, mentors,uh, uh, uh, them selling all these.

(07:46):
Thousands, hundreds ofthousands of packages.
Yep.
They're not selling you theprogram, but say they're selling
you their lifestyle, right?
So I think it's so dangerous.
It can be so dangerous because if Iwalk, if all my social media posts on
me holding a Louis Vuitton bag with anespresso machine behind me, or I'm on.

(08:12):
The beach in Hawaii, and Ijust got out of a Mercedes.
If you're not aware andyou don't pay attention.
And I see this in a lot of young peopleper se is that then you buy into the idea
that oh, that's what I need to strive for.

(08:39):
And if I buy their six figure program,I can have that lifestyle too.
That's why I get very turnedoff by those accounts.
I really like them if people share that.
Oh, they woke up at 3 a. m.due to menopause hot sweat.

(09:03):
Hello, Andrea.
Please introduce yourself.
Thank you so much, Patricia.
My name is Andrea Sexton Dumas.
I am an end of lifedoula and grief gardener.
I live on enceded ancestral territory ofthe Miwok and Chicheno speaking Ohlone
people, which is in Northern California.

(09:25):
And my pronouns are she, her.
Although I do answer to he,him, and they, them as well.
Thank you.
I do want to talk about the end of life.
Yes.
I would love to hear,what is a Grief Gardener?
So, I came up with this last fallwhen I was invited to participate in

(09:50):
an art show about grieving rituals.
So first, just I have to name likethe humility and, um, grace that I
feel has come over me by just beinginvited to participate in an art show.
Um, I had been dreaming up aninstallation for a couple years actually.

(10:12):
So, um, To have a place to put it withouteven like trying to shop it around.
I, I don't see myself as anartist, but I can understand
that sometimes your life is art.
And so, um, this installation thatI created, I call a wind room.
Um, so I don't know if you'refamiliar with the, the wind phone.

(10:36):
Have you heard about this?
No, so years ago, I believe it was.
2009 there was, um, there's a Japaneselandscape artist who his cousin passed
away and they were very, very close.
And so he built on his property, likea vintage looking, um, phone booth.

(11:05):
And he put a non working analogphone inside of this booth, and he
would go there to call his cousin.
And, you know, he said he called it thewind phone because his, his feelings
would be carried away with the wind.
And then the following yearwas that big tsunami in Japan.
And so many people lost loved ones, homes,communities were completely wiped out.

(11:35):
So he opened up his Property tothe public and people would stand
in line for hours to use his wind.
I know
so My massage therapist actually told meabout this a few years ago, and I just
kind of became obsessed with this idea Ilive in a windy area And I love my plants.

(12:01):
I have trees outside of the house and so
and and when she told me about thisI was going through a particularly
hard time of life just It's probablyone of the most challenging periods
of my life, especially as an adult.
And so I would justpiddle around my house.
I was having a lot ofchronic pain at that time.

(12:22):
And of course COVID was in full swing.
So we weren't able to goout and do a lot of things.
And I just tend to my plants in silence.
And um, so, so when the curatorasked me like, how do you even
keep all these plants alive?
I just said grief.

(12:43):
It's like grief, that's whatkeeps, this is how I tend to
myself by tending to the plants.
I put my fingers in the dirt, I touchthe leaves, I water them, I track
them, and it's just become a placeof um, safety and comfort for me.
And so, end of life doula is onething, but there's an emotional

(13:10):
component that I feel like.
I need to name
and so for a while I was saying grieftender like I tend grief and most
people it's like a weird word It'slike think like a chicken tender
So I wasn't really happy with thatword But then you know, like I said

(13:30):
when the curator said how do youkeep these plants alive Oh grief.
I'm a grief gardener.
That's That's what I do.
I put my hands in the soil.
Do you then, when you're tendingto the plants, do you then
pass your grief to the plants?

(13:54):
So it depends.
Like, it really depends.
I have some plants that I, soI have some inherited plants.
I have a small plant that sat onmy aunt Ophelia's windowsill, and
she died 20 years ago this year.
And there's no hole in it, it's a vase.

(14:17):
But it was So this littleplant, this little pothos has
stayed alive this entire time.
So with that plant, I don't give it mygrief because I'm, I'm actually letting
it give me whatever medicine it has.
Um, I have other plants from other aunts.
You know, that have givenme clippings over the years.

(14:38):
And so those, it's more oflike an honoring relationship.
Um,
so it really depends.
Because there, there are othertimes when I am overcome with grief.
Truly overcome.

(15:00):
And it just takes over.
And so that's, like, when I sayI put my hands in the soil, like
I, I mean literally, I don'tuse gloves most of the time.
And that is when I'm giving my grief.
It's like, um, as I'm working with thesoil, it's like, Hold this for me, please.
It's too big for me.

(15:21):
I don't know what to do with it.
There's really nowhere to go.
And so please help me.
Help me hold this.
And so it really depends on what'shappening with me and what plant it is.
It's not a straightforward thing at all.
It's very like intuitive.

(15:42):
Move as the moment calls.
I love that.
Before we get to the end of life, Iwonder whether you'll share a bit about
your history, your upbringing, yourancestry, anything that comes to mind.

(16:02):
I would love to.
Um, so as you and I are talking, you couldprobably, I don't know if you can see the
photo of my grandmother over my shoulder.
So I, I can never speak about whereI come from without speaking about
my grandmother, my neighborhood.
I'm from West Oaklandbefore it was gentrified.

(16:24):
Um, that's really important becauseit's a different place today.
Um, I was, I was raisedin a village, Patricia.
Yeah.
Like, it was so normal to me, I didn'tknow that it was unique or special.

(16:46):
Um, so my parents and I livedwith my grandmother, so I grew
up in an intergenerational home.
She had a back house as well, sothere was always another cousin
or uncle living in the back.
Two doors down was my aunt Ophelia.
And she also had a downstairs that therewas always someone living with her.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

(17:07):
Across the street, you know,Mrs. Price and Mrs. Slider
and the El Salvadorian family.
Mr. Tyler, like we all Ourlittle block was just so special.
Um, the neighbors had theauthority to spank me.
They never did, but it was threatened.
It was threatened, soI knew that they could.

(17:28):
Um, although I have opinionsthat differ from that, um, about
spanking children as an adult, Iknew that everyone was my caretaker.
Um, our family church, St.Patrick's, was like two and a
half blocks away from our house.

(17:48):
So, you know, when I was veryyoung, my grandmother and I walked
to church every day before school.
My parents drove, um, because theywere disabled so they couldn't walk.
Um, and the church ladies also raised me.
You know, I call them the milk line.
You know, they're not my bloodline.
But, so I didn't come from thembiologically, but they fed me.

(18:14):
Um, and the strongest memoryI have, I actually had a dream
about this a couple years ago.
Um, in this dream, I was a young child,you know, six or seven years old.
And all of the church ladies in mydream were just kind of holding my
face and just looking down at me,just looking down lovingly at a

(18:35):
child's face, like, happy to see you.
So growing up in that type of communityand intergenerational household, and my,
and my grandmother was also a matriarch.
I can't, I can't even believeI almost miss saying this.
So not only were we very involved withour church, um, there was a lot of prayer.

(19:01):
And my parents were disabled, so theydidn't work, so they were always home.
And my grandmother was 79 when Iwas born, so she was always home.
My aunt Ophelia was retired,so she was always home.
But both of them, grandmother andOphelia, had an open door policy.

(19:21):
So anyone could come to their houses.
at any time during the day.
So, you know, on the weekends or insummer or even after school, I would see
people coming to my grandmother's houseand coming to Ophelia's house to visit.
So, you know, you come in, you sit atthe kitchen table, you make someone a cup
of coffee, always have cake available.

(19:43):
Always.
There's always a pound cake on top ofthe refrigerator in case company comes.
And I was a cake maker.
Right?
So this, this idea of Nurturingpeople and, you know, it's like if
someone's hurting, come, come over,come have some coffee, come sit

(20:06):
and, you know, chat for a while.
That was a huge part of,um, what shaped my heart.
Yeah, my heart is in the shapeof my grandmother's house.
Will you name your grandmother?
Yes.
My grandmother's name is AlbertaGauthier Dumas Robinson, but if you

(20:32):
met her and if you came over, youwould be calling her Mother Dumas
or Mother or Mrs. Dumas or Mrs.
Robinson.
No one called her by her first name, okay?
Mrs. Robinson.
No, Andrea, what, what is your lineage?
Yes.
Yes.
Um, so my father's side is Black Creole.

(20:58):
By way of Louisiana,
um, I want to name, and this might berare, especially for someone my age,
because my family was in Louisianafor a very long time, um, enslaved.
And we are Creole because the enslaverswere having babies with the people

(21:21):
who they were holding captive.
So that is why we are Creole.
It's nothing fancy or exotic.
It comes out of trauma.
And my grandmother was an ESL student.
She did not speak English in her home.
My people did not speak English.
They spoke French Creole.

(21:42):
So, you know, people, my grandmotherhad a strong accent, which, again,
I didn't realize until other peoplesaid, oh, your grandmother talks funny.
Um, and so, that lineage goes backto West Africa, Togo, and Ghana, and
Benin, as well as the French enslavers.

(22:09):
Um, and on my mother's side, I'm lessfamiliar with her people, but they
are German, Cornish, and Irish byway of Iowa, and then to California.
Thank you.
Thank you.

(22:30):
End of life to you.
Give us a bit ofexplanation of what that is.
What do you do.
I would eventually liketo talk about death.
Yes.
But before we get there, because Ihave me in my circle to people who

(22:53):
are an applied to that and I almostthought about doing the certification.
A while ago.
I'm interested to hear how youdo because I'm pretty sure it's
different every in every country.
That's right.
Yeah.
And so it is important to saythat end of life doulas are
not regulated in the States.

(23:15):
So, you don't need a certification,anyone can say I'm a death doula, and
it's, it's not one specific thing.
Like if you said I'm a birthnurse or I'm a hospice nurse,
that's a very specific thing.
And so a death doula is this very largeumbrella that can span anywhere from

(23:37):
helping you get your paperwork in order.
You know, let's write your will, let'sget your house cleaned up, um, let's
take care of some of the brass tacks.
to sitting bedside for a dying person.
You could be making phone callsfor the family or washing dishes.

(23:57):
You might be running errands.
Um, you might be hostingvigils or even, um,
officiating a funeral.
So it's a, it's a very wide range ofthings that one might be able to do.

(24:19):
And Because I had disabled parents, andthat also shaped me quite a bit, um, I
tend to lean on the bedside part, andthe emotional and spiritual support.
I'm less good about the paperwork.
You know, there's a lot of, of course, youknow, knowing the laws is very helpful.

(24:43):
Um, so, you know, people might evenjust call me to say, Hey, my, my
loved one was just put on hospice.
What, who should I call?
What should I do?
You know, and they may not evenwant to necessarily hire me, but
there's just so much to considerwhen you're in the end of life.
And then also once someone has died,there are so many things to take care of.

(25:06):
And so again, you might just bepicking up obituaries for folks.
You might be, um, again,just bringing them food.
Have you, have you had some water today?
Let me bring you a glass ofwater as you're taking care
of all of these decisions foryour loved one who has passed.
Uh, in where I am, it's not regulated.

(25:29):
I think a local college was,this is before, this was before
COVID, was offering like 12 weeksprogram or something to do it.
Uh, with your work, howlong have you been doing?
So I earned my certification, I believeit's been two and a half years now.

(25:58):
I'm curious is there, are thereparts of it That you just know you
said the bedside those fall to you.
Are there parts of it thatyou're like, really, beside
the paperwork that you're like,
If you need me for that,I'm not your place.

(26:18):
Don't call me.
Yeah.
It gets to be fair, right?
We all have our strengths.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
So definitely the paperwork part.
I mean, you can call me and I willrise to the occasion and, and we
all have our strengths, you know,because it's not a medical position

(26:38):
that, that does help me a lot.
Um, so we are not toadminister medication.
You know, we are not to do anythingmedical, we can hold hands, you know, we
can do your hair, we can wash your bodywhile you're living, or even after you've
passed, if the family would like that,or if you, the client, would like that.

(26:59):
So, um, because I'm squeamish.
And, and even the training, um,that part was difficult for me.
Um, and that, Absolutely haseverything to do with my parents and
what I watch my parents go through.
So there's certainly alwaysroom for our own healing.
Um, but I, I do get squeamish.
And so I'm, I'm grateful that themedical piece, you know, we're, it's

(27:24):
not even that we shouldn't do it.
We can't, you know, that's,that's a line you can't cross.
So I'm, I'm grateful for thatpart, um, because that, that
would be very challenging for me.
Ooh.
That's fair.
That is very fair.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm curious.
What are your beliefs aboutwhat happens after you die?

(27:47):
Mmm.
Mmm.
So, and I'll start in childhood.
My mother's parentsdied before I was born.
So, you know, they werealways a mystery to me.
And growing up Catholic Youknow, my mother would say, well,

(28:09):
you know, you'll meet them oneday, you'll see them one day.
And then when my father died whenI was eight, it was the same thing.
Oh, you'll see him again.
Um, so side note, when you talkto children, they're very literal.
So I thought, cause I'mthe youngest grandchild.
So I thought one of these bigbirthdays that all my cousins seem

(28:29):
to get so happy about was when youwould see all your dead parents.
So maybe like 16 or 18 or 21, and I canactually remember when I turned 16, it
was so anticlimactic because not onlydid I not get a driver's license, but
I did not see my, my dead loved ones.
They did not come for me at 16.

(28:50):
And.
You know, I had to kind of wait,well, heaven and what is this?
And, um, and I, I didn't believe inany of that for a very long time.
Um, through my own experiences as, um,well, as I didn't say this earlier, but,
um, in hypnotherapy as a hypnoty andthen later as a hypnotherapist, as a

(29:12):
facilitator, um, I've learned a lot aboutwhat people experience at the end of life.
And near death experiences, and um,I've had, I haven't had quite near
death experiences, but I've certainlyhad like opportunities to exit, and
I have felt something larger thanmyself kind of reel me back in.

(29:33):
So I, I do believe thatthe spirit is eternal.
I do believe that.
And um, I don't necessarily believein the heaven that I was raised with.
But I do know, again, from my ownexperience, also as someone who can

(29:53):
see in the dark, and I live very closeto the veil, that there is something
outside of just living in a physicalhuman body as a Homo sapien on Earth.
I suspect that there are other dimensions,and Layers of reality that we are not

(30:16):
privy to, although some people are, and wemight diagnose them with mental illness.
Um, and, and, it's been incrediblyinteresting as a doula to
watch my patients and otherpeople, just loved ones, have,

(30:42):
I'm using hand gestures, um,otherworldly experiences.
as they get closer to the end.
That's, that's quite interesting to me.
And, and often the loved onesare not interested in that
with, with their love, like.
My person is dying, and that's the focus.

(31:04):
And then when I'm with the clientone-on-one, you know, they're sharing
really, um, incredible experiences,you know, visions and visitations
and, um, so I, I do believe thatthere's more to life than just this.
Mm-hmm
. I, I often find it sointeresting to learn about.

(31:26):
What other people believe I'm a Buddhist,so I'm big on rebirth and yes, karma.
And I'm
curious in your work so I heard this fewyears ago, a hospice nurse shared that

(31:51):
often times when people are atthe end of life in her experience.
They often share that all theadvice they often give us,
don't live with any regrets.
If you want to do anything, godo it, whether it's big, whether

(32:13):
it's small, and also tell thepeople you love that you love them.
Yes.
What has If you can share this, whathas your experience been with working
with clients at the end of life?
Has there been like a few commonwisdom that they've given you?

(32:34):
Um, I'd say the commonthread is gratitude.
You know, um, a verysincere thank you lands deep
and um,

(32:54):
yeah, I've, I've received some reallysincere thank yous and um, I think,
I think that's a part of it, right?
Is like telling someone like, I'm gratefulthat you're here and doing this for
me, leave it on the table, you know,especially if you might have regrets,
you know, it's interesting becausehospice, the, the, Diagnosis of hospice.

(33:20):
I'm using air quotes with that becauseI don't know that it's an actual
diagnosis, but it's saying this personlikely has six months left in their life.
That's when you go into hospice.
If you know, if you have some sort ofdiagnosis, you may not be terminal,
even if it's terminal, they may seeit will take a few years for this
to run its course through your body.
So hospice is really, you'vegot about a half a year.

(33:44):
Most people don't go into hospice,meaning, um, so there's different
protocol for the doctors.
There's different protocol for the nurses.
They're doing pain management andsymptom management more than cure.
You know, trying to curewhatever's going on with you.
Excuse me.
Most people don't go into hospiceuntil their last couple weeks

(34:09):
of life, which is I mean, whoa,so you don't even have the time.
I mean, our culture, you know, herein the West in the so called United
States, we really fight death.
We don't like it.
We don't like to talk about it.
We don't want to deal with our grief.
We just want to move on and getgoing, which I think is a huge

(34:31):
problem, not just for our bodies,but for our spiritual lives as well.
I think we're doing ourselvesa great disservice actually
being so death avoidant.
So, I reckon, and I'm just, youknow, kind of going through my
brain here, that there are regrets.
Because if you're only saying,I'm going to die when it's at your

(34:54):
doorstep, there's not much thatyou might be able to do anymore.
You may not be able to speak anymore.
You may not be able to move your body.
You may not be able toexpress your wishes.
You might be in a situation whereyou're expressing your wishes and the
people around you just don't care.
They're, they have their ownagenda and I mean there's,

(35:19):
so
gratitude I think is that common momentof just, thank you for seeing me.
And meeting me in this place, not beingafraid of me, being willing to touch me,
you know?
Yeah, and I really love that you broughtup the piece about how in the West, wow,

(35:47):
we don't know how to talk about death.
We don't want to talk about death.
We would just want to move on.
And if somebody's grieving aftera certain amount of time, they're
like, what, you're not over it yet?
I, and, I think what we, and I saywe as the society, the culture don't

(36:08):
realize is that if we don't know howto process grief and talk about death,
look at the state we're in right now.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It.
Like I said, it consumes you.
Like it'll, it will eat you alive.

(36:28):
And, and, you know, to betransparent, I lived in that place
for many years, you know, because.
And, and so, I mean, it's sointeresting because my grandmother
was not death phobic, but certainlygrief avoidant, certainly.
I love her dearly and so, you know, withher siblings, she had many siblings.

(36:50):
So, you know, if a sibling would passaway and she wasn't able to go to the
funeral in Texas, you know, she wouldsay someone take a picture of him
in the, in the casket, and then theytake the picture and mail it to her
because she wanted to see his final.
You know, his final, um, youknow, I'm thinking about her,
her brother, Uncle Anthony.

(37:12):
When I lost my dad, it wasjust like, Oh, rely on faith.
You'll see him one day.
God has a plan.
And I'm like, where's my daddy?
You know, and my mother was soovercome with grief that she couldn't
support me emotionally either.

(37:34):
So I got really angry.
I had lived with a lotof rage for a long time.
I just didn't know what to do with it.
And I did, and for the record,I also didn't know what it was.
I, oh my goodness, the thingsI used to tell myself as a
teenager, I thought I was crazy.
I thought I was bipolar.

(37:55):
I thought I was, you fill in theblank of anything that's giving me a
reason as to why I feel so unsettledin my body and so misunderstood.
Um, Maladoma Sommé says, His elders inBurkina Faso reckoned that the reason the

(38:15):
West, and let's be even more specific, thedescendants of Europe, who have colonized
Turtle Island, this is the reason thatwe are in the place that we are in.
Because they do not honor theirancestors, and they do not honor death.
And when I started buildinga relationship with grief,

(38:39):
like that is when the tidechanged for me, truly.
And, and I also want to speak to,um, I don't talk about this publicly
because I'm not a practicing Buddhist,but I studied Buddhism for many years.
My therapist actually brought me in.
And so Buddhism gave me a foundation thatChristianity and Catholicism did not.

(39:04):
Oh, interesting.
I also do want to justname that as a Chinese.
Well, you also don't reallyknow how to deal with that.
Okay, fair.
Because a lot of, I'm sayingChinese, not Asians, but to be fair,
it was to also to name that mostof my clients as a therapist, 90

(39:26):
percent of my clients are Asian.
So I'm saying this with my ownexperiences that in a lot of Asian
family, we don't talk about emotions.
It's getting better.
Some parents are doing a good job ofit, but most of us were brought up with.
What?
You feel sad?
Just move on.
Go eat something.

(39:47):
Oh, right.
Yeah.
Go stop it.
Go do your math problems.
Right.
But when you talk about honoring theancestors, I remember growing up and
I grew up in Singapore is that someonedies, you have a funeral and the wake is
any anywhere from three to seven days.
Seven days is means youhave a lot of money.

(40:07):
The family is rich.
The shorter it is.
The less rich the family is, eventhough nowadays most funerals are
three to five days, no more than that.
So you have a funeral, people come,pay respect, the casket is there.
If you're Buddhist, the Buddhist monkscome every night for prayer and chanting
on the towers, the same thing happens.

(40:29):
And then, um, I remember with mygrandparents, one of the things,
even when my dad passed, so my dadpassed 2017, then my mom died in 2020.
So even when my dad, after my daddied, it was, well, with grandparents
and my dad, was within 70s, yougot to get rid of their things.

(40:53):
Oh, wow.
My mom's was like, you keep a few things.
Do you want his watch?
Do you want, there was a traditionwhere my mom was like, here's a pair
of his underwear, keep it for a year.
I still don't know what that was about.
I was like, okay, I'm taking it back toCanada and still don't know what it's for.

(41:16):
But it was like, okay, so within sevendays, we're going to get rid of their
stuff, whatever you want to keep,you keep, but the rest has to go.
We have a tradition that ontheir death anniversary, you pay
respect to the ancestors, becausenow they're an ancestor, right?

(41:38):
And then in Buddhist and inChinese culture, there are certain
days where you are set aside topay respect for the ancestors.
On Chinese New Year, you putout a plate for your ancestors.
Right.
And I never thought muchabout it growing up.
But I remember three, four times ayear, we will go to, to the temple or

(42:01):
to where their ashes were, we will pray.
But now, in the last few years, reallydiving into the spirituality and stuff.
I look back, I'm like, Oh,that gives you a connection.
That's right.
That you're not alone, which Ifind in the West, without the

(42:23):
connection with your ancestors,
people are so lost and lonely.
Yes.
And then we talk about whythere's appropriation going on.
That's right.
We want other people's culturesbecause we don't have our own.
Yes.
But there, you know, someyears ago, a woman came into my

(42:47):
office, my day job, and she was
She was all worked up andthere was a gal outside.
She had seen who hadon a bunch of tattoos.
She had a bunch of tattoosand tribal tattoos.
And you know, so this woman comesinto my office, she's white.
And she's like, you know, it'snot our culture tattoos or not.

(43:10):
And she's, and I'm like, okay, Idon't know the history of tattoos.
I'm pretty sure there were tattoosin Europe, but any who, she was
just really worked up by this.
And in the moment, I just kind ofsaid to her, I said, yeah, I think
people are just grasping at straws.
I think people are hungryfor that landing place.
And so yeah, you learn someoneelse's culture because it's

(43:33):
not taught in your own.
And in fact, this is kind of funnybefore I say this, absolutely
yes on the lonely piece.
That when you are connected to yourdead loved ones and your ancestors,
even if you don't know them byname, in my experience, and I have

(43:54):
a very intricate spiritual life.
Like I said, I do livevery close to the veil.
It has become a relationship.
So I tend to them, I talk to them,I leave them offerings, the people
I, even the people I don't know.
And over the years it hasevolved to, again, like I

(44:15):
have dreams, they come to me.
I have synchronicities thatare absolutely unexplainable.
And I feel so less alone in life.
Especially now, we'rerecording in February, 2025.
And, you know, a lot of my friendsare like, Oh, how are you feeling?

(44:35):
Are you nervous?
No!
I am the descendant ofthe people who survived.
It is in my bones to know how tonavigate all of this nonsense.
I don't want to, but I can.
You know what I mean?
Like, I, I would, I would, honestly, Iwould rather us all be sitting in the

(44:56):
grass talking about our feelings, lookingat the birds, petting our puppies.
But no, we have to fight.
And like, even though mygrandmother was a prayerful person,
that was her version of fight.
And the people who came before her.
So, that connection, Is really grounding.

(45:19):
I actually say to a lot of my friends,I am more able to be in my body
because I am connected to spirit.
Yes.
Being on this earthly plane is halfwayokay because I know I'm not alone.
You know, like, like, becausefor many years I felt alone

(45:40):
and I did not want to be here.
Point blank, period.
So, mmm.
And , I don't talk about ancestralhealing work with everybody, because
like you say, some people, some friendsor whether it's clients, they're just,

(46:02):
they're just not, they're not there yet.
Right.
But those who are open to it, I dosay that two things, if you have
never looked into your ancestry.
Look at the food you eat.
That's right.
Right.
And I'm still bitter about this.
For many years, while trying tofit in, okay, it is my fault.

(46:26):
We're trying to fit in.
I gave up rice because what did theindustry, what did the society tell us?
Rice is bad.
Yeah.
Rice is for poor people.
And it's carbohydratesgoing to make you fat.
That's right.
That's right.
So I didn't eat rice for a few years.
And then when I started doingancestry healing work, like Getting.
I'm like, look, get this.

(46:47):
That's right.
I mean, I don't need to eat abowl like like I used to when
I was a child or teenager.
But now, once or twice a week I have ricebecause they make me feel good and make
helps me to connect with my ancestors.
That's, and the second thing I tellpeople too is while you're doing this
work, that land can be your connection.
Oh, absolutely.

(47:08):
Trees.
Find out whose land you're on.
Trees.
That's right.
Go to the mountain.
Animals.
That's right.
And because I think when we don't havethat connection, we are lost souls.
Yes.
And lost souls makes really bad decisions.
That's right.

(47:30):
That's right.
And.
I do believe if we are not tending thedead, they're, they're also not settled.
You know, sometimes I feel here on TurtleIsland that I am walking among ghosts.

(47:54):
So in the Chinese culture, uh, seventhlunar month is the ghost festival.
So the belief is that on that day, thegates to hell open and they come to visit.
So people put up offerings.
You know, almost not a bride, butmaybe like a bride to go here, here's

(48:15):
an offering, keep us safe, beatthem, they burn, uh, incense, burn,
uh, paper money, stuff like that.
Right.
To, to, for the spirits, it's avery, yeah, I'm glad we're talking
about this because So many peopledon't want to talk about death.
They don't want to talk about grief.

(48:36):
And I, I think you and I arealmost about the same age.
I'm 50.
Mm hmm.
I just turned 46.
Ah!
I cannot wait to be 50.
Oh my gosh.
It's so good.
It's so good.
It's so good.
It's very funny.
No, this is an off topic, but sometimes,uh My younger clients will say to
me, What do I get with a formal?

(48:58):
How do I have more selfesteem, self confidence?
I say, Well, on one hand, yes, we knowwe need to work on our root issue.
But I also say, It's true.
The older you get, youdon't really care anymore.
I, I have shed so much caringabout what other people thinks.
And as we were discussing earlier,there's, there's these last few
little lingering pieces that are stillin there and I'm like, doggone it.

(49:22):
I'm gonna get these.
I'm a, I'm a, I'm a dig them out.
Cause I don't like this.
It is so freeing and honestly,grief also keeps me very honest.
Oh my goodness.
So, um, I haven't talked a lot about this.
So in November, my dog died, my churro.

(49:48):
He was such a special person, I can'teven, I feel like he was my soulmate.
He just lit up ourlives, and not just ours.
Everywhere we went, Patricia,people would talk to him, children
loved him, elders loved him.

(50:10):
You know, if you came over and you wouldhave a healthy body, he would jump on you.
But if you didn't have a healthybody, he knew not to jump.
You know, I took him over to my auntwho was in a wheelchair and he knew
how to be gentle around a wheelchair.
He just, he was a rescue.
We got him when he was eight years old.
So he was a senior dog and

(50:33):
he was, he was absolutely perfect.
Um, and he had been sick for sometime, so, you know, we knew that the
end was coming, and, um, he died inour busy season at work, so, you know,
I'm overwhelmed, I'm grieving, I'mso sad, he, he also came to work with

(50:54):
me every day, so, like, my whole daywas built Around him, and with him.
We drove to work together.
People on the freeway wouldtalk to him through the window.
Like, like, I kid you not.
It was a really magical, um, relationship.
He's such a blessing.
And when he died, it'slike, I'm grieving, period.

(51:20):
I cannot put on for anyone.
You know, so I wore, I, I wore sweatsto work for a month and a half.
I don't care if I don't look professional,you know, I'm not your doctor and
I'm not your fashion designer.
So it doesn't reallymatter what I look like.
I'm grieving.
My best friend just died and You know whenI was younger Because I didn't know what

(51:47):
it was, you know You do you try to getback to normal and you try to go to work
and you you find yourself Staring off intothe distance and losing focus and getting
angry or being sad at, you know, it's likeyou're just flopping around in the wind.
But now that I know what grief is andI know how it feels in my body, you

(52:11):
know, I would, I would sometimes tellsome of our clients, and again, this is
my day job, which is in digitization.
So, you know, it's not the, thesensitive hospice clients, it's
someone on the phone asking me pricing.
And I'm like, pleaseslow down just a minute.
I'm, I'm grieving today.
Can we backtrack a little bit and, youknow, it would catch people off guard,

(52:31):
but then they would say, Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
When my dog died or, Oh, yeah.
Okay.
And I was surprised at how manypeople were willing to meet me in
the place when I said, Hey, we got toback up a little bit, you know, and
I think I let grief keep me honest.

(52:53):
Because I was not fighting it anymore.
And I, what you did, in my opinion,you gave other people permission.
Yes, yes.
Right?
Yes.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's, it's, I don't haveto, this is Patricia being a little

(53:17):
bit, I don't have the best vocabularyfor saying, but I always, I do think
it is interesting because Whether it'sgrief, sadness, we're talking about
our mental health, how we're feeling,
there's still a stigma to mentalhealth, but when we talk about it,
we give people in our life a mission.

(53:41):
Yes.
But for a lot of us who grew up notbeing able to feel our feelings or
acknowledge our feelings, we were broughtup to believe that I cannot burden you.
That's right.
Right.
And my example, one of my closestfriends is Chinese and we met in

(54:02):
Chinese medicine school many years ago.
And, but for both of us, we talkedabout this over a meal one day or
both of us, we kind of cracked thedoor open to sharing our emotions
with each other after my dad died.
So there's just us.

(54:23):
17 years after we became friends,and then after that, a few
years after that, her dad died.
But even in our culture, to be able toreach out and go, Hey, how's it going?
Like I texted her the other dayand I said, how's your mom doing?
Because her mom has on, uh, earlyonset dementia, stuff like that.

(54:47):
But this wouldn't happen15 years ago, right?
But now we've given each other permission.
That's right.
Right.
And I do believe that you don'twant to overshare, because you
need to be sure that the personyou're sharing with can hold it.
Absolutely.
This is why.
Therapy is important.
That's right.
Right.

(55:08):
But I also think not sharing, not tellingpeople that we're grieving is detrimental.
It's absolutely detrimental.
And thank you for bringing that upbecause if you are trying to share with
someone who doesn't have the capacity,You know, you will not have your needs

(55:29):
met and they are certainly not goingto be able to do anything with the
situation and it can become harmful.
And, um, so let me just say, um,I lost one of my best friends.
We broke up.
She's alive.
Um, and one of the things she saidto me, and this is, I mean, we've
been broken up for over 10 years now.

(55:49):
She said, you know, you just talkabout your dead parents too much
and there's no room for my family.
And, you know, it takes me a longtime to process things, so I'm
still processing this breakup.
She was my family, and I miss her.
Um, but it's like, oh, I was oversharing,and she didn't have the capacity.

(56:09):
Both things were trueat that time in my life.
And prior to that, I had actually triedto go to therapy, and the therapist
said, you know, you're so well adjusted,I don't think you need therapy.
I was 18 years old, and she sent me away.

(56:30):
And so, you know, it, it took sometime for me to find a therapist
who could hold the space for me,because I had so much baggage.
But it wasn't for my friends.
They couldn't hold all that.
My goodness.
And so, you know, if we lived in intactcommunities, you know, a thousand years
ago, well then, yes, everyone in thevillage could probably hold it together.

(56:55):
But usually where our friendshipsare one on one, And most of
us are not trained, licensedtherapists and not grief literate.
So, you know, being discerning aboutwhat you share, how you share and
who you share with is very important.

(57:16):
And, you know, and I, the otherthing I, I don't know where I
heard this, but I love saying it.
I don't speak from my wounds.
Like when I'm speaking publicly,I don't speak from my wounds.
I speak from my scars.
Right?
So if I'm still bleedingout, then this is private.
This is at home.
This is online with my therapist.

(57:37):
You know, I do have a couplefriends who are therapists,
so I might reach out to them.
Hypnotherapy practitioners.
Like, I'm gonna get the professionalsupport that I need in those moments.
And that might even bea spiritual advisor.
You know, a priest or a pastor or,um, you know, a monk of some sort.

(57:59):
I can speak very freely today aboutmy parents and my grandmother and so
much of my early loss because I havegiven the space and the time and the
care to let those wounds heal over.
And they're significant scars,trust and believe, but they
are not open wounds any longer.
Yeah, and I often say this too, right,is that if this was even a hundred

(58:23):
years ago, We would have grandmothersto go to aunties to go to cousins
to go to the process stuff and I,you grew up in a village and I kind
of did too, even though, I mean,again, no family is perfect, right.
But I can remember like, even when Iwas younger, until I kind of was like

(58:45):
15, it was like, Your cousin call, youknow, like you would share something
and, but also friends from highschool, the close ones, you would just,
you'd be able to talk on the phone.
This is with a cell phone.
This is before socialmedia, the distraction.
And we don't have that.

(59:06):
Most of us don't.
Like, I don't have any family around.
My husband doesn't have any family around.
And making friends now, especially, Idon't know whether you were, you, you're
the same, but I find you hit about 40 ish.
Making friends has to be very intentional.

(59:26):
Very intentional.
Because it's like, who do Iwant to surround myself with?
And do you have the capacity?
To be a friend, right?
And I, I have a WhatsApp groupwith two groups of friends.

(59:47):
And one of them often is started.
If one of us need witnessing, what'stalking is like, if anybody has
capacity, or do you have capacity?
It's okay.
If you don't, I also find what's
what stand out, not what's It standsout for me too, is that in the West

(01:00:12):
too, is that there's an expectationsthat one friend, one spouse partner
should fulfill all my needs.
That's right.
And I don't think that's fair.
Like
I, I also truly believe that ourspouse should not be our therapist.
That's right.

(01:00:33):
It's not fair on the relationship, right?
But I have some friends that I go forlunch with and we talk about funny things.
I have another one that we text, youknow, because they have more capacity.
And I think that's importantto serve, especially in the
day that we're in right now.
We need community andpeople who can hold us.

(01:00:56):
And then on the topic of grief, I don'tknow whether you've seen this is that
the friends that are close might notbe the friends who can be there for
you when you're going through grief.
That's right.
That's right.
And, and again, thinking that one person,you know, is going to be able to hold all

(01:01:16):
of it for you, you know, this former bestfriend of mine, we used to go dancing
together, we'd party together, we'd shoptogether, and then when I needed emotional
support, I just dumped it all on her.
And she didn't have the capacity for that.
At all, you know, she just didn't and,and, you know, today it looks very

(01:01:39):
different because like you said, some ofmy closest and longest friendships are
absolutely not the people I turn to formy grief, but I will love them forever.
And we're very, very, very, very close.
And I can speak to them when thewound has begun to heal a little bit.
But when I am.
At my most griefful, I do needmy therapist and I actually

(01:02:02):
have a male therapist.
I don't talk about this very much eitherbecause I, I've surprised myself with it.
I'm like, really?
Okay.
Um, but that's who is able tomeet me at this time in my life.
My first therapist was a woman.
So, um, you know, to have differentfriends for different things.
And, you know, I do like to be a littlebit cheeky, and so sometimes when my

(01:02:25):
friends say to me, like, Oh, you know,you're the only person I can talk to.
I'm like, honey, you need better friends.
You know, and I don't mean to, it'slike, I'm not trying to disparage
anyone, but you need more friends, right?
And it's like, yeah, there's, youknow, there's, there's lots of things
you're not going to call me for.
You know, you're not going to call me togo to the concert because I'm probably

(01:02:46):
not going to want to go, you know, butif, but if you need some tenderness,
if you need some perspective, thenI'm a good friend to call for that.
Yeah.
And, you know.
With the best friend that youguys are no longer friends.
I am a firm believer that people showup in our life in certain stage of

(01:03:08):
our life for some reason, and youto however long you were friends.
For you feel each other's cup in thattime, at that time, as you grow, as
you get older, your needs and theirneeds changed and they no longer jive.

(01:03:33):
I also, I wonder things too, is that
We when we were younger, we thinkfriends should last a lifetime.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I that doesn't very hard.
I don't know how many people have friends.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, it's it's not somethingI grew up seeing either.

(01:03:55):
But television certainly told methat friends are You know, supposed
to last forever, but the way I grewup, your cousins were your friends.
Yes.
And we have such a large familythat we have a lot of cousins.
So, and actually, I mean, I must say,so I have a sister, but we're cousins.
We're blood cousins, butwe were raised as sisters.

(01:04:18):
And we kind of move astwins in this world.
We're like, we're like two sides ofthe different sides of the same coin.
The way that we kind of move.
You know, in the world, we kind of,um, she's a Cancer, I'm a Capricorn.
Like, we have, we're very, verydifferent, but we have so much
overlap that we make such a good team.

(01:04:38):
And this is the, this is the friendshipI absolutely, you know, will last
me until, I mean, beyond this life.
And actually, I do believe thatfor the friend that I lost.
I believe that it wasa karmic relationship.
I've had dreams about her over the years.
And in the dreams, ourrelationship has changed.

(01:05:03):
Um, I once had some medical stuffgoing on and she literally came into
my dream and told me what it was.
Wow.
So, to me it's like, okay, ourfriendship, whatever that was, is over.
We have mutual friends still, wedon't talk, we don't see each other,
um, but I know that it's not over.

(01:05:27):
Mm hmm.
You know?
And, and actually, I mean, sincewe're talking about it, um,
you know, the last time we saw each other,it was not good, words were said, um,
just last week, I wroteher a letter in my journal.
Just last week.

(01:05:49):
And I, you know, I'm like, I don't know.
We'll, we'll see if I mail theletter, you know, to the house.
I don't know if it's appropriateanymore, but you know, it's not over.
There's so much more to lifethan just what we can see.
I, I do believe that truly.
And again, like my spirituallife keeps me grounded.
So, because like, you know, otherwiseI would probably still be in torment

(01:06:11):
about this lost relationship.
I cried for years about it, years.
Yeah.
A couple of more questions for you.
I'm aware of the time.
Sure.
How would you like to beremembered upon your death?

(01:06:32):
You know, Patricia, I stilldon't, I don't quite know yet.
I'm figuring it out.
As someone who doesn't have children,
I think the way our societytalks about legacy is lost on us.
You know, people say, oh, Iwant to have kids for my legacy.

(01:06:53):
It's like, okay, wellthen, it's kind of weird.
I don't know.
Um, I don't know what to think about that.
Um.
I pray that,
I also want to say before I move on,like, so one of the assignments when
I was in, um, my death doula trainingprogram was to write your own obituary.

(01:07:21):
I'm like, people aregoing to be at my funeral.
That's weird.
Because in my mind, everyone'sgoing to die before me.
And I don't, I think this is probablylike a by product of losing my parents
early and my grandmother and my aunt.
But like, it was like, Oh, that'slike, I have a lot of younger cousins.

(01:07:45):
Like, Maybe someonewill come to my funeral.
So, so like it's given mepause to even think about that.
Like anyone would give a shit.
Oh, I'm sorry.
I know you don't curse on your podcast.
I apologize, but that anyonewould even care about my death.
So.
So, so since this has been on my mindfor the past couple of years, it's

(01:08:06):
like, well, I hope I'm remembered assomeone who tried someone who just
tried, you know, someone who didn'tgive up, you know, this life is hard.
Like it's
living is not for, you know, theweak, you've got to be strong.

(01:08:29):
You've got to find that internalstrength in that internal engine,
that internal flame to be.
Get up another day and give ita go and find what's important
to you to make it worth living.
And so, and you know, going backto grief gardening, I say this

(01:08:50):
all the time with my friends.
I'm just planting theseed with you, you know?
So when you said like giving peoplepermission, I just plant that seed of
like, maybe one day there's a day when youstop someone who's overwhelming you and
say, wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm grieving.
I can't handle this right now.
You know, so I hope that

(01:09:11):
some of the seeds germinate.
We'll see.
Maybe that's yours.
Because the whole legacy aboutchildren, we don't have children either.
So that's never been mine on my radar.
I'll share this with you because Iwonder whether that this would help
you to kind of think about it a bit.

(01:09:32):
When my dad.
So, when my dad died, his weightwas three days, and then my sister
and I did the night shift becausethe week in Singapore is outdoor.
Oh, and it's somebody needs to bethere to look up look to make sure
that nothing happens to the casketand stuff and my sister and I did a
night shift because we were jet lag.

(01:09:53):
She's in Europe.
I'm in Canada.
Right.
So we fly to Asia andwe're both jet lag anyways.
Yeah.
And, uh, One day, I think the second daywe were there, this older gentleman came.
So my dad was a social extrovert.
People love him, young people, oldpeople, he's got more friends, my

(01:10:18):
parents, my sister and I were like,looking at my parents were like, you guys
have more friends than the two of us.
But anyways.
Which is so funny, right?
But what this, this guy, oldergentleman, he speaks 80, 81, 82.
And he came at a quiet time.
And, uh, my sister was Upstairs at mymom's place and I was down there and I

(01:10:45):
was like, do you want something to eat?
Because at this week, we also providesome snacks and drinks because I know,
no, I just want to come and pay my respectby saying, don't tell my wife I'm here.
Because again, right.
Emotions.
We don't care about emotions.
Right.
All the Chinese cash.
And he started crying and saying thathow kind my dad was and throughout the

(01:11:09):
week, but people came to pay respect.
That was the theme.
And I knew my dad was a kindman, but he would give you
the last dollar in his wallet.
And I think that's a greatway to be remembered.
Thank you.
Yeah.

(01:11:30):
Last question for you.
Yes.
In your life, whether it's withwork, with, uh, what's going on right
now, how do you nourish yourself?
Let me count the ways,

(01:11:51):
because it takes a village, eh?
So, you know, um, I was walking a lot.
Churro and I walked a lottogether and I love walking.
I can walk for hours andhours and hours and hours.
I love walking.
It's so grounding.
You know, you notice thetrees and people's yards.

(01:12:13):
If you're in nature,like I just love walking.
Um, I like candles.
You know, so if I'm feelingparticularly emotional, even like if
I'm going to sleep, I have a batteryoperated candle that I might leave
on and just keep vigil overnight.
I

(01:12:36):
have a singing bowl thatI will use to calm myself.
If I'm super overwhelmed, Iactually started doing this in 2020.
I scream in my car.
And I was reallyembarrassed by it at first.
Like I would, I would put onmusic really loud to pretend like

(01:12:59):
I'm singing along, you know, sothat people wouldn't notice me.
But after a while, Ijust got a Let it out.
I just can't hold it inside anymoreand there's nothing to do with it, you
know, there's nothing to change, right?
We can't change the wayour country handled COVID.
We can't change all these people dying.
I can't stop holocausts around the world.

(01:13:21):
Like, boy.
So, so getting it out of my bodysomehow has been incredibly helpful.
Dance class.
I haven't gone in a few weeks, but Istarted going to dance class once a week.
To just tap my feet on the ground and havea little fun, get some endorphins going.

(01:13:42):
That helps.
Um, I have a stuffed animalthat I carry around the house.
, oc feed, stuffed animal.
Lemme see.
Oh, that is amazing.
What is his, what is his name?
It's so well, so her name is Octopus.
Octopus is my nickname for my inner child.

(01:14:06):
And so, um, same thing when I'mfeeling especially tender, I
literally carry her around the house.
I sleep with her, I use her as apillow, um, I really let, you know,
my inner six year old have comfort.

(01:14:27):
And actually I will say this aswell, like my, my relationship
with my inner child is also veryimportant to my grieving process.
You know, she didn't have alot of people listening to her.
So I listen and Sometimes Idon't want to hear what she has
to say and I I'm like Andrea.

(01:14:49):
You're the adult so strong back soft heartas a little Arthur would say, you know
octopus needs to be heard right now and Icreate space for that often through trance
work, but She's a huge part of my life.
You know, before we hopped on, I wasfeeling nervous about our interview.

(01:15:10):
So I just have had my stuffedanimal on my lap this whole time.
I love it.
I'm a strong believer, big believerin doing inner child work and having
a stuffy for your inner child.
That's right.
That's right.
Hold on.
Let me show you Daisy.
Oh my gosh.

(01:15:30):
Oh, look at her cute little dress.
I know.
Daisy has a partner at the store.
Oh.
I didn't get the pup.
I think that would be for my innerchild for Christmas this year.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.

(01:15:53):
I love it.
Well, and it's cute because I havea couple other octopuses as well.
So I get it.
There's not just one.
Octopus.
I never thought about getting an octopus.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's funny because it cameup in therapy actually.
And it just like, when I, I said somethingto the effect of like all the things
I want to do, I need more arms likean octopus and the minute I said it,

(01:16:17):
it just clicked and it was again, likethat inner six year old was like, yes,
I want to be an octopus and, and forthe record, when I do inner child work,
she does not want to be called Andrea,little Andrea, Dre, none of my nicknames.
She is octopus.

(01:16:37):
She, me.
Okay.
Bye.
wants to be separate from who I became.
And at first that was like weird andoffensive, but I'm not who I imagined
myself to be at six years old.
I had other dreams for myselfand life had other plans.

(01:16:59):
So giving her that autonomy.
To say you as an adult are over thereand I am me and I don't always like you.
It's like, oh, okay Okay.
All right.
That's that's what my inner childneeds and it's it's a very like
nuanced thing But it has helpedme tremendously to To not control

(01:17:24):
what my inner child has access to.
Mm hmm.
I love that.
Mm hmm
I wonder whether she wants anotherdog She wants all the dogs.
I don't, I'm, I'm justthrowing it out there.
Oh, you already know, Patricia, we havelooked and looked and looked and, and

(01:17:49):
actually, um, this upcoming weekend, we'remeeting a family who can't keep their dog.
Um, so they're local.
It's all, it's another senior dog.
Um, and my husband said, you know, areyou okay with getting another senior dog?
I'm like, well, I am adeath doula, aren't I?

(01:18:11):
So,
you know, I, I hopeeventually we have two.
Um, we had hoped to get a seconddog and Choo Choo got sick,
so it wasn't the right time.
But, um, that is a goal of mine to my,my dream and we'll see if it ever comes
to fruition, but my dream is to have.
The space, the type of land, youknow, a couple acres to, I can

(01:18:36):
bring home any stray dog I find.
That's my goal.
I have, I have a similar kindof dream to have like dogs.
There's lots of dogs.
Yes, and you know, and I have toshout out my cat Banana because
he's been a wonderful medicine cat.

(01:18:56):
He's a mischievous orange tabby, um,who has really risen to an occasion
that I didn't know he had in him.
So he's been very loving and attentive,um, and sweet and dogs are different.
You know, I miss thenervous system regulation.

(01:19:18):
That I had with Churro, and I alsogrew up with dogs, so that's a huge
part of also like just being safe,feeling safe as a child is being
able to hold on to my dog at night.
Um, and I also like biggerdogs, so that also helps.
I don't know how a smallerdog would feel for me, but you
know, to have this companion whoalways has kind eyes for you.

(01:19:43):
You know, who's always happy tosee you, who you, you know, you
might upset them if you don't givethem another treat, but it's, you
know, they forget in five seconds.
Um, there's something sobeautiful and grounding and
supportive about having a dog.
Um, and even though Churro's only beengone two months, um, it's like, you know,

(01:20:05):
if this is a, if this is a good fit, I'mhappy to bring home this elder puppy.
You know, I, I think.
Well, we've got a lot of loveto give and I'm sure that he has
a lot of love to give as well.
So I can't wait to find out.
I'll keep you posted.
Thank you so much for agreat conversation today.
Thank you.
I've enjoyed it immensely.

(01:20:25):
Thank you.
Thank you for listening today.
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(01:20:46):
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(01:21:30):
I appreciate you very much.
The Conversations with Your ChineseAuntie podcast is created and hosted
by me, Patricia Petersen, your Chineseauntie, Yi Yi, and recorded on the unceded
and ancestral lands of the Musqueam,Squamish, and Tsleil Waututh nations,

(01:21:54):
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(01:22:17):
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