September 15, 2024 • 66 mins
Content warning: the conversation touches on sensitive topics like suicide.
In this Conversations with Your Chinese Auntie episode, Patricia Petersen hosts Don Carter, an entrepreneur, speaker, writer, and transformational coach. They discuss various topics, including Don's upbringing without a father figure, the significant role community played in his life and his journey to becoming a coach. They also delve into deep subjects such as following your heart, fatherhood, dealing with loss and change, and the transformative power of surrender.
Don's website & book
Bio: Don Carter has spent a lifetime pursuing service and protection, previously during a decade in law enforcement and now through working with emerging business leaders. His relentless journey has led him from healing hearts to radical new starts for black executives and entrepreneurs breaking through to their next levels of growth and success.
Don Carter is an author, speaker, business shaman and transformational executive coach who brings a vibe that generates life-shifting insights for his clients’ work and for themselves as human beings. Using principle-driven purpose, he helps high-performing individuals shift the focus from what seems wrong on the outside to everything right on the inside. By embracing transition and change as a necessary experience, it helps others grow into deeply authentic, fulfilled, and successful business leaders.
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Community for Asian Women Starts September 30th
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to conversationswith your Chinese Auntie.
Yiyi that's me.
I hope you had a great summer.
And I can't believeit's already September..
In this episode, we welcome Don Carter.
We talk about.
Quite a few things and what really stoodout to me with this conversation was
(00:28):
how easy it is to have a chat with Don.
We talk about many differentthings about Don growing up
with no father figure,but he was surrounded by.
Community.
Especially on his mother's side.
So, yeah, the topic of communitycame up about following your heart.
(00:51):
And, Fatherhood and alsodealing with loss and change.
Trigger warning here.
We talk about suicide towardsthe end of the episode.
So please take care of your heartas you listen to this episode.
Don is an entrepreneur speaker writer andtransformational coach who helps black
(01:13):
professionals and entrepreneur create morerevenue and impact in their businesses
and freedom and abundance in life.
Don helps untapped entrepreneursand executive leaders eliminate
limitation and imposter syndrome.
I will add the link for Don's websiteand his book in the show notes.
(01:43):
Good morning, Don.
Good morning.
Welcome.
Thank you for saying yes.
No, it's my pleasure.
Thank you for opening the invitation.
Yeah.
Please introduce yourself,yeah, my name is Don Carter.
I am, uh,
Transformational executivecoach and business shaman.
(02:06):
I adopted that, that title after severalyears of, um, several years after
a client spontaneously uttered it.
And I recognized.
The truth in it of being, um,an intermediary, an intermediary
between the tangible and intangiblethings in the business journey for
(02:27):
my clients and an agent of healing,if you will, in that context.
So, um, that's something thatI just really put on this year,
so I'm trying it out a lot more.
Um, but it was.
They first said that probablythree, three and a half years ago.
Um, and it really resonated deep with mebecause of my recognition of some of the
(02:51):
story that I have on my own origin and,um, the transformation of that over time.
And so I've spent a lot of myyears really serving other people.
I was in law enforcement for abouta decade, uh, and was a detective.
And now I spend my energies and attention.
(03:13):
helping people investigate their innerlives so they can grow their business.
How did you, I'm curious when you sharedwith me that you were a detective,
how did you transition from that?
Well, it was a long transition interms of vocationally, but it was
(03:33):
really just my way of leading.
And um, and I had actually even workedwith several, uh, business owners
prior to leaving law enforcement.
And I've always had theentrepreneurial bent, https: otter.
(03:53):
ai Really just finding my own wayin my entrepreneurial pursuits.
Um, and so I collected a lot ofwisdom and a lot of insight and,
um, connected the more human side towhat people think is just, you know,
(04:16):
tactical, strategical business stuff.
And so I helped people really makebreakthroughs that they weren't able
to make just by knowing what to do.
It was about, um, Really elevatingwho they are in their own minds and
allowing themselves to continue tounfurl and to transform into that person.
(04:40):
And so I've been doing that but
when I got to the point in my lawenforcement career when I was just
surviving it, it was about eightand a half years into it and I
recognized that I was becoming thekind of person I didn't want to be and
(05:02):
the incident that, that brought thatto, to really in front of my face,
uh, when I was a detective was when Iwas talking to a victim of a violent
crime because I was in violent crimesand she was just completely broken.
Like, couldn't even barely talk tome because of, um, because of how
(05:23):
distraught she was by what occurred.
And as I'm listening to her, I'm justsitting there with my notepad and
I'm like, okay, what happened next?
Okay, what happened next?
And I felt this doubt of the,um, I was really like feeling
like, is it really that deep?
Like, do you really have to be?
(05:45):
And so IF because she was so emotionalthat she couldn't barely talk and I was.
And looking at that with skepticism,I recognized in that moment,
it was like, this woman justneeds somebody to listen to her.
She just needs to feel safe.
She just needs just some comfort.
And I'm sitting here justlike, just the facts, man.
(06:07):
And that was the point whereI realized that I was like,
yeah, it's time for me to go.
And that's because I actually rememberedI had a prayer in early in my career,
like when I was in the police academythat, that I think I remember saying,
asking, Prayer that God wouldn'tlet my heart get hard toward people.
And in that moment with this woman inthis interview, I, it was almost like
(06:32):
I was looking down on myself from thecorner of the room and just like, yeah,
dude, this is not who we want to be.
And so that's when I knewit was time for me to go.
And then it was probably another year anda half before I like fully let myself go.
Um, and I just broke away andI wanted to come alive again.
(06:54):
And not look at the worldas a negative place.
Um, Just by virtue of the nature of thework that I did, that people don't call
the police when things are going right.
They only call them whenthings are going wrong.
So if that's my work, is only seeingpeople at their worst and hardest
times, then naturally my, my ownperception is gonna shift to that.
(07:16):
And so when I felt that startto happen, I was like, Yeah,
this isn't, this isn't for me.
And, I wanted to restore my own sense ofwell being and goodness about the world.
So I left and just went on anadventure of figuring out what
I, who I was becoming next.
(07:38):
To the chagrin of my family and tothe, the, against the wise counsel of
my wife at the time and my kid, causethere's some esteem to it, but, um,
yeah, when people, when you tell peopleyou're a detective, they're like, Oh.
And it was not glamorous, obviously,but it felt like it was crushing my soul
(08:04):
by the time I was, it was time to go.
You know, I am curious, you know,it really touched me when you say
you were just sitting there andyou were just writing when she
was sharing what happened to her.
How much was that?
Was it?
The training, the expectations that as alaw enforcement that you are expected to
(08:26):
do it, because even, you know, I've talkedabout this a bit in other episodes is that
even as a therapist, the Western idea isthat you're not supposed to closeness.
Your clients, and that is a veryWestern idea is like with you
(08:48):
having to keep like almost like abarrier between you and the victim.
Yeah, is that was that the expectations.
Yeah, it's the expectationand it was unspoken.
Actually, it was unspoken in directtraining, but they would say things like.
If you become a part of the problem,then you're not helping anymore.
(09:10):
And so basically the sentiment wasbe detached from the circumstance.
Um, and really they were mostly talkingabout in dangerous situations, like don't
do anything crazy so that you don't becomesomebody that we need to be helping.
But in another sense, once you, once wegot out into the work in the field, that
was just the sentiment, the expectation.
(09:32):
It was like, I have tostay composed because.
If I don't, then I'mnot able to do my job.
And so that was, that was it.
I'm just doing my job.
That's what people would say.
And so it's like the job itselfis being detached from the very
thing that got you into it, whichwas to care for and help people.
(09:54):
Cause the vast majority of thepolice officers that I knew and
know really cared about people.
But there's a switch thathappens after about two or three
years, um, that they should be.
There's just not enough coping mechanismsthat are healthy that allow people to
stay connected to their own emotionsand still be able to do the job.
(10:17):
And so I think therapists aresimilar in terms of that tendency,
at least here in the West.
Um, and yeah, it's interesting to me thatyou even mentioned that that's a Western
sentiment because it feels like it.
It's like more clinical rather than.
Um, yeah.
(10:37):
And it feel it just, and it alwaysfeels just so lifeless, really.
And cold.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I interviewed the, woman who wrotethe book Decolonizing Therapy, Mm.
And it's a, it's a term that's, A lotof us who identify as people of color
(10:58):
and therapists of color, it's like we'relooking at it now because it's like
everything that's taught to us in master'sprogram of counseling and therapy.
It's was.
The ideas were from the colonizedWestern white male idea.
But over the last, I think, 10, 15years is that as a therapist, who's
(11:22):
a person of color, you're looking atthese skills and then you're working
with clients who are people of color.
You're like, they're not getting better.
Why are they not getting better?
Because the individualistic Westernthinking of I'm your therapist, the
Subcontext of I am better in a sense, likequote unquote, it doesn't work because for
(11:49):
those of us who grew up in a collectivistculture, community is so important.
You know, community isthe, is the most important.
It's the healing agent.
It's the thing that allows you tobe seen for better or for worse
or for comfort or discomfort.
And it's very, it gives you theopportunity to one, get out of your
(12:14):
own way sometimes, as well as, youknow, be nurtured and cared for in a
very, um, intimate and soothing way.
And so, yes, the fact that we.
And I didn't typically think of it as,well, maybe we'll get into the story
later, but I didn't think of it as beingcolonized as much, but that's essentially
(12:36):
what it is because that's what we live in.
We live in a society that is,uh, built on that framework.
And so that's a lot of how I actuallyreckoned with my own identity, uh,
probably eight years ago or so,which is another detective story.
But I had, um, and I don't mean to getoff topic already, but, uh, yeah, I
(13:02):
remember when I was sitting with thiswhite woman who I was interviewing, who
was a witness of a crime and, uh, she'sdescribing the suspect and she said,
he's, he's, you know, he was a black male.
I was in robbery, which is, um, is therobbery homicide unit and robbery in.
The state of Missouri is really aboutforcefully taking property from somebody.
(13:25):
So it's not just breaking insomewhere or something like that.
It's encountering a person andviolently taking something from them,
either by threat, force or harm.
And so 90
plus percent of the suspectsin, in robbery crimes in
my area were black males.
(13:48):
And, um, she's so, so she's justcasually describing the suspect.
He's a black male.
He's wearing this, wearing that,uh, this height, this weight.
And then she pauses really strange.
And she's like, but he'slight skinned like you.
(14:10):
It kind of pricked me a littlebit where I was like, what?
Light skin.
Okay.
But then I just wrote it down lightskin, like me, whatever that means.
And.
So it kind of jolted me, it was twoweeks later that I was sitting with
a younger black female and goingthrough the same interview process.
(14:31):
And then at the end of it, she saysalmost the exact same thing, describes
the suspect and then pauses and islike, but he's light skinned like you.
And this actually sent me reeling,where I remember going home.
pacing around my dining room because Iwas just so distraught by the idea that
people were calling me light skinnedbecause in my mind, I was black, black.
(14:52):
Like, I was like the color of my shirt,black is how I thought of myself.
And so long story short.
I ended up just questioningeverything, because I was like, if
this isn't true about me, then I'mnot actually the color black like I
think I am, and what I believe blackidentity is, what else isn't true?
(15:13):
And then I realized that everything thatI was learned was, everything that I've
learned about myself was based in thissystem of, uh, really a forced identity.
And I'd never felt connected to thenarrative of being directly from Africa,
even in the last few generations.
Um, because to me it was like,that's not that long ago.
(15:35):
That's only a few hundred years.
I, my family would have said somethingand there's this, This piece that a lot
of black people in the United Stateshave at least where their family tells
them that they are Indigenous is likethe quote that black people kind of say
(15:57):
It's like I got Indian in myfamily So that's coming up in
the 80s and 90s if somebody saidthat it was almost like they were
It was almost like they were tryingto highlight some Esteem that they
have because they had some Indian intheir family But when you're looking
at our phenotypes and the traitsand all of those other things, it's
(16:19):
like, our families told us this.
It wasn't just that people were tryingto make something up that wasn't true.
And so when I, thankfully,this sent me on a journey of
really some deep self discovery.
One, I just suspended my beliefs abouteverything because I was like, if
everything is founded on this, thisidea of my identity being this, and
(16:40):
it came from somewhere that maybeis untrue, what else is untrue?
I don't know.
And, um, thankfully mygrandmother was still alive.
And after I did some digging, I foundlike this photo of these two people
that look like just typical lookingindigenous folks, and they were told
(17:02):
they were supposed to be my great, greatgrandparents or my great grandparents.
One of the two.
So I showed my grandmotherthis photo that I found.
Cause I found it like through ancestry.
com or something like that.
And I was researching my family history.
And she said, where'd you get that?
And I was like, I told her where, andshe was like, that's grandma and grandpa.
(17:23):
And I was grateful, because she was inher late, she was in her 90s at the time,
and uh, it really affirmed to me thatlike, oh, my people are like from here.
So I asked her, I was like, Granny,did, did your people ever tell you
you were from anywhere but here?
(17:43):
She was like, no, we're from Louisiana.
She told me Cato County and she toldme all this stuff about what, and I
was just like, okay, that makes sense.
And so then I started lookingit up and found some information
about, The Cato Indians, whichare, you know, darker complected,
uh, indigenous folks in the South.
(18:04):
And then they got pushed out intoTexas and, um, what's now Texas.
And so I started to really connect to thestory that I believe most of the Black
people in the United States that aredescendants of indigenous people here.
And, and so I flipped the narrative formyself, just that, you know, my only
(18:28):
ancestry is slavery from people whowere subjugated and kidnapped and all
of that other stuff from another land,because as a black man, having very
few generations of people to draw fromin this, in a few hundred years, you
feel like you don't have an identity.
And it's one of the struggles that, that,I've seen, uh, black people have, um,
(18:52):
is there's no connection to the land.
There's no connection to a land.
And so they're just kind of listlessand, and, you know, wandering.
But when I reckon with that for myself,it was, you know, instantaneous, um,
restoration of the sense of peace anda sense of curiosity and wonder about
(19:16):
the world, um, instead of just beingpigeonholed into this idea of who I was.
And so all of the things thatwe have inherited have their
root in this colonial mindset.
Which I identify as something that iscontentious with the world around it.
(19:37):
It's like as a, as a, as a Colin,whatever you call it, I was about
to say a colonist, but somebody whogoes and establishes new colonies
elsewhere, if you have your own agenda,it's natural that you would want to
subdue whatever is there already.
It's not about blending with it andEuropean colonialism in it very uniquely.
(20:03):
is a conquering mindset, where whensomething is different than what I
think is true and right, then I conquerit, rather than collaborate with it.
And so, in therapy or in any kindof clinical setting, or in any
setting where you're dealing withpeople in a direct way, this sense
(20:27):
of detachment is what, Keeps you,
I guess, uh, viable in that.
And so as a therapist, I imagine, youknow, what I would imagine is, is taught
is that you can't get into people'stroubles because then you like, it starts
tainting your ability to help them.
(20:48):
And I can see the wisdom in some of that.
And I can also recognize thepower in really helping people
be seen as a means of them.
Gaining some sense of healingor something like that.
(21:08):
Yeah.
I, uh, it's, I mean, I think, well,I believe that all of us wants to be
seen and heard, you know, and I lovethat you use the word collaborative
because that's what it is, you know,but when you come in from the mindset
that I'm better than you, my way or thehighway, then that's when things just.
(21:31):
Don't go well.
Would you share a bit about yourupbringing, because I am so curious
for you to have the mindset thatthings are not working, I need to
(21:51):
shift, or you go to your grandmotherand start to research your ancestry.
It's very, it's always interesting tome to see how and where you got that.
thinking and your childhood when youhad some great elders and mentors
(22:13):
growing up that impacted who you are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I was raised by a single momand I had three other siblings.
We all had different fathers though.
And mine was the onlyone that wasn't around.
Um, and so I grew up without afather, didn't meet him until
(22:38):
I was 16 for the first time andbefore that I didn't know his name.
I didn't have any clue aboutwhere his whereabouts were.
Um, and so most of my childhood was,um, I mean, all of it was on my maternal
side, my mom's side of the family.
And because she was a single mom,um, Um, there was a lot of time
(22:58):
that we spent with my grandparentsand so her family was really solid.
My grandparents were married for, Idon't know, 60 something years, I think.
And um, she had three brothers.
So we had uncles and there was aninteresting bond that my grandfather
had with his next door neighborbecause they were in a part of the
(23:21):
city where I grew up in Kansas City.
Um, black people weren't allowed tolive in certain parts at a certain time.
Um, but my grandparents inthe fifties moved into the
neighborhood that they were in.
for the rest of their lives, basically,and so that was the context for it, but
(23:42):
my grandparents and the neighbors werelike the first black families to move
into the neighborhood, so they werereally bonded, and they became like
family, and so I'm actually named aftermy grandfather and his best friend,
uh, his next door neighbor, um, formy first and middle name, because he
was like a father to my mom as well.
(24:03):
And so those two families reallyprovided a lot of safety because
they were next door neighbors.
And so we play in betweenthe houses or all around.
And it was just a really sweetenvironment in terms of the people
where there was just some, exceptthere was great acceptance and love.
And in the midst of whatever, all theregular ills of urban, you know, Blighted
(24:29):
neighborhood life is and so it wasn'twithout challenges or what some would
call tragedies but it was full of Love andacceptance and so I had this duality that
I grew up in where I was simultaneouslySafe with the people around me and
I felt like the world was dangerous.
(24:50):
And so I had a lot of paranoia In my earlyyears, like I remember being like super
paranoid from maybe ages eight to 16.
Um, I remember feeling like I wasn'tgonna live past 16 because for
young black boys in the 90s, it waslike, that was just the narrative.
(25:10):
And so I remember being terrified,like approaching my 16th birthday,
even though I wasn't in the streetsor I wasn't really, um, In any kind of
activity that would be conducive to mehaving my life snuffed out early, but
Because that was like the, the weight ofwhat it meant to be a young black boy.
(25:33):
I just felt it.
So that was my internal environment,but my external environment was like
people who just really loved andaccepted and really nurtured me,
but especially my mother and the onething she told me my whole life that I
actually didn't really just, it didn'tclick until I was like in my thirties.
(25:53):
Um, she always told me to follow my heart.
Yeah.
That was like her admonition.
That was the thing.
So whenever we'd ask her somethingor whenever I'd have some She'd
just say just follow your heart.
And so that was the message overand over and over and over again
It's like retune into yourself.
(26:14):
And so between the people and mymother's You know, direct influences.
She's such a great lady.
She's such a sweet andnurturing and caring person.
That was the context that I grew up into allow me to feel like I could explore.
(26:35):
And so I was always out and about.
Um, I mean, I don't, I don't evenknow if my mother traveled before
I did internationally, um, becauseI just had all these opportunities.
She just let me explore.
Um, And she facilitated my exploration.
Uh, and so I thinkthat's a big part of it.
(26:55):
Being, feeling loved.
My grandfather, on my mom'sside, has had ten other siblings.
And so, that line just kind of really,uh, created a context of commitment
to family and just love for family.
(27:16):
And I think that made ahuge difference for me.
Love that.
I, you know, I love what you saidabout your mom, how great she is and
the message is to follow your heart.
Is there an example that stands outto you that when you look at your
(27:36):
mom, and you're like, Oh yeah, thisis when she followed her heart.
Yeah, I see.
I think that might besome of the disconnect.
I think my mom was always really just trueto herself She she she loved and served
and really took care and takes care ofpeople from this really open heart and
(27:59):
She got some pretty tough boundarieswhen it's time to and so watching her
like operate like that I mean one ofthe reasons she had multiple marriages.
It was because Like, as a kid, Iwasn't thinking negatively about
it, but it was like, that is kindof like a strange sounding thing.
(28:20):
By a certain time, my mom had five,was married five times, and so that
can sound like it's not working.
But what I recognize that it is thatmy mom, deeply caring, deeply loving,
and then when she realizes that therewas some, something to, to cut off
is like, yeah, she has, she's, shehas a high endurance for, um, BS.
(28:47):
And when it's the time to drawthe line, she can draw the line.
And so that's what I watched her do.
I don't know about her following herheart, except in just how she lived
in terms of like having any particulardreams or wanting to do certain things.
She just always lived well.
I mean, I watched her, um, If she neededto, she would, you know, set up a nice
(29:11):
environment and take a bubble bath.
She would have music going all the time.
She, there'd be incense.
There was just an environment of justnurture and love for herself and for us.
And so that's what I observed.
And I never connected that tothe follow your heart piece.
And that's why I said, maybe Ididn't get it until I was much older.
(29:32):
Um, because.
After going through what I've beenthrough over the last, you know, six,
six plus years, um, since leaving lawenforcement, following my heart and that
being kind of my anchor internally isthe thing that allowed me to stay solid
through some very challenging times.
(29:55):
Um, and so I looked up.
You know, it was probably about four orfive years ago, and I was like, oh, wow,
like I'm living in that way where I'm justfollowing what I think is good to follow,
despite what it looks like, despite whatI'm, what cares I could have about it
and worries, I'm just following my heart.
(30:17):
And so since she instilled that inme, I had to call her and I think I
was like 30 or something like that.
And I was like, yeah, thank you for,you know, Putting that in me, because
all the goodness that I was enjoyingat the time was a result of me having
the courage to follow my own heart.
That's so sweet.
Am I, am I correct in saying thatfor her and for you, the ability
(30:41):
to follow your heart is becausethere's a community behind you.
I believe that.
Yes.
Um,
And because it's the, the waterthat I lived in, like, I just felt
it, just felt that sense of, andthere's a lot of us that are really
(31:03):
strange all throughout my family.
And everybody just kind of wenttheir own way and did their
own thing and came together.
And so it wasn't even likea staged sense of community.
It was just like a, acontinuous gathering.
Like, I remember little thingslike being at my grandparent's
(31:25):
house, my grandmother would frychicken like once or twice a week.
I mean, it was a thing.
And so literally neighbors comeover, people from around the
block would come over, Hey, Mr.
C, that's what they wouldcall my grandfather, Mr.
Carter or whatever.
And it was just such a, yeah,it was a great community,
(31:47):
like the whole block, I think.
Because my grandparents had livedthere for so long, by the time I
was born, they were, you know, bythe time I was born, they had been
there, you know, 25, 30 years.
And then, uh, yeah, they wereestablished and seen as, as
just caring, reliable people.
(32:08):
And so that just brought thatsense of magnetism to, At least our
house, our, our grandmother's house.
And, um, so there wasalways a sense of community.
And
definitely, like, it's tip, it's, it'slike a, a, a typical thing that I hear
(32:31):
black people my age and older say,or, um, But I remember running around
the neighborhood and having somebodythat I did not even know, be like,
Hey, your mama is looking for you.
And like be able to have heron the phone or they called or
whatever, just to be what felt likeit was far away from the house.
It was probably only like two blocks away.
(32:53):
But it was two worlds away as a,as a kid, and to know that people
were like seeing you and looking outand being like, you need to go home
because your folks are looking for you.
They wonder where you are.
That was a very great senseof community and safety.
Um, so definitely, and even now, likeI moved to California for several
(33:16):
years and it was because I didn'thave the ability to connect with the
community as well there that I was like.
Oh, we could probablymove back to the Midwest.
Um,
and so community is one of thosethings that has always allowed me
to thrive, I think, and I never, butI've always been such an individual.
(33:37):
And so.
Those things are not, you know,mutually exclusive at all.
It's not like my identity is inthe community, it's just that my
identity is within the community.
And I get to be myself and I getto be these other people as well.
Yeah.
Well, and I think a good solidcommunity allows you to be who you are.
(34:07):
Accept you for who you are,and you can go off and explore
and then they welcome you back.
Mm-Hmm.
, that's the, that's the, the stabilityof community that helps you to explore.
I'm curious, so you havethree children and Mm-Hmm.
. you grew up without a father, I'mcurious, was there, I'm sure there is,
(34:30):
but conscious decision when you becamea father that, you know, you were like,
okay, I want to be a different father.
I want to show up differently becauseyou didn't grow up with a father.
Yeah.
It's kind of backwards from thatwhere it wasn't when I became a
(34:53):
father, that decision was made.
It was when I was six or seven.
And I remember being in my mom's Hyundaihatchback, it was like tan, I'm sitting in
the back seat with my younger brother whowas three years younger than me, I think.
(35:13):
And so I know he wasprobably four at the oldest.
So.
I couldn't have beenmore than six or seven.
I was like two and a halfyears older than him.
And I don't remember what wewere arguing about, but we
were arguing about something.
And in the midst of that heatedargument for these young people,
(35:34):
he's literally four, I remember it.
And he looks at me and he says, well,at least I know who my father is.
As just like a, and then I just stoppedand just started bawling my eyes out.
Like I can still feel it.
Like I'm 43 years old andI can still feel that.
(35:55):
And my mom, she was very sweet.
And she just turned around tome, just crying my eyes out.
And she just said, baby, I'm really sorry.
And then she said, you just make surethat you're a better father than yours is.
And I don't remember if it was abetter father or just make sure that
you are, yeah, I think it was better.
(36:16):
She just said, you just make sure thatyou are a better father than yours.
And I took that on as a mantleas a six or seven year old kid.
And I know she meant well, but thatwas a burden at that point where I was
like, Oh, I'm going to become a father.
(36:39):
And so then literally every girlthat I liked from the time that I
was seven or eight years old, I waslike looking at his wife material.
I was literally looking at them as, aslike prospective wife, because that to
me was the pathway to having children.
And so, and nobodyactually ever told me that.
(37:01):
Which is interesting.
Um, but that's what I equated to itwas, Alright, I'ma get married and have
children so that I can be a father.
And so, In my early 20s with my firsttwo children, Um, early mid 20s,
There was great intention in terms ofhow I allowed myself to be a father.
(37:27):
And so, I mean, I was very nurturingand, and loved kids at the time.
And so it just was a delight forme to have these little people to
just love on and to explore with.
And so for my first, myoldest, who was born female.
There was just this rich connection and Iwas, my grandfather was the only man that
(37:51):
really kind of stood out in my childhood.
His best friend that I was namedafter died long before I was born.
Um, but he was just kind of aquiet, I mean, he was in his
sixties by the time I was born.
So he was just kind of a reserved,quiet old man at the time.
And he said very few words, but Iremember just his presence, but there
(38:15):
wasn't a lot of male like role models,if you will, for me, my uncles were
kind of bouncing around doing stuff.
One of my uncles, he was the cool one.
And so we would roll with him andmy cousin sometimes, and, um, But
there was nobody who like instilledanything in me and not anything,
but just anything directly.
(38:36):
Like this is how you parent.
Uh, this is, this is what thefather son relationship is like.
So with my oldest, who wasborn female, I felt connected.
I had my grandmother, I had anolder sister, had my mom, had
all the women that were around.
So I knew how to connectwith women in that way.
But then when my son was born,there was something that shifted
(38:59):
where, and this was right at thebeginning of my police career too.
So there was a lot of stress and a lotof things happening, a lot of changes,
but I felt like disconnected from him inthe father son relationship, because in
my mind, I didn't grow up with a father.
And so I don't know how to have arelationship with a father and son.
(39:20):
That's how it felt to me.
And so, with the intention ofwanting to be a great father, I
still didn't feel like I had thefaculties to do it with my son.
And that is something I'm actuallyeven wrestling with today.
Him being 17, and Uh, and with thenewborn, because my third one, when you
(39:45):
said I had three children, I was like,Oh, snap, I got three kids, she'll be
six weeks like tomorrow, or Sunday.
And, uh, I was nervous again, becausewe didn't find out the sex of the baby.
Until she was born, but, um, andso the whole time I'm like, if
(40:06):
it's a boy, how am I going to feel?
So even though I was always lookingforward to it, and even though I had
this great intention of being a quoteunquote better father than mine was,
um, that felt like there was a hugegap in my ability to deliver that.
And so here I am, 43.
(40:28):
And I have 19 year old, 17 yearold boy who's like, he just got
taller than me a couple weeks ago.
Um, and then this brand new baby.
And so I'm working on one end oflike, what kind of father am I to
let, like, how do I let them go well?
And then I'm ushering in this other one.
(40:49):
And so how, so I feel this stretch inmy own fatherhood that is, um, yeah,
it's really, really, it's daunting
and not in a negative way, but I'mjust like, I know, I don't know
what I'm doing and that's okay.
But the feeling of disappointmenthas been really sticky.
(41:14):
between me and myrelationship with my son.
And it's not even thatI'm disappointed in him.
I feel like I've disappointed myselfsomehow in what my expectations of
being a father were at six or seven.
Cause I did imagine it, but Ididn't deliver it in the way
that I thought I wanted to.
(41:36):
And so I felt like I missed out on alot of his early Like heart connection
years, um, and I didn't even feelemotionally connected to him until he
was like four and that kind of stillreverberates in, in our relationship
where it's just a little awkward.
I don't really know how to, um, feellike I'm connected with him as much as.
(42:03):
He seems like he's connected with me.
So yes, there was great intention andI know that I've been present as a
father and I know that I've been veryconnecting and loving and, uh, protective
when necessary and have helped thembe the kind of people who still want
to talk to me and in their, you know,To some degree, like they, and that's
(42:25):
been kind of my North Star is like,
I don't know what I'm doing,but I want to keep the lines of
communication open so that we canfigure it out together, if necessary.
And so that's, that's the best thatI think I could have done so far.
(42:45):
Um, But yeah, my kids are great,like they're great people.
It's just as a father, me wrestlingwith my own fatherhood the other
way, where I felt abandoned early on.
And then I felt abandoned asecond time when he passed away.
Um, I just am unsure what I'mdelivering to my own children.
(43:13):
I, well, I mean, for youto have that awareness.
How would father the children?
I think that says a lot thatyou are presently you're trying.
I am curious.
Have you ever asked your son, like howyou like, how he looks at you as a father?
(43:34):
Yeah.
Um, actually very recently.
And.
It's funny, we've been getting intoa lot more heated discussions lately.
And again, my son is amazing.
He's very considerateand loving and caring.
(43:55):
And so the things that I focus onwith him are like very small compared
to what parents might typicallyworry about for their children.
But I'm adamant about howmuch the small things matter.
But I've made a mistake of, at leastin my part, of feeling like Of causing
(44:16):
him to reflect back to me that he feelslike I'm just grilling him all the time.
I'm just talking about what's wrong,um, and I feel that pressure inside.
And so, I've asked him,
he's, he's volunteered attimes in these conversations.
It's like he just wants to put themirror up at me that the things that
(44:38):
I'm telling him are things that I'm notactually Reflecting to him in my behavior.
And so it feels like really petty Butit's often that in those conversation.
He's like He's like, you do the same thingand, and so I have to take that as like
his, him giving me insight unsolicited.
(45:01):
And then recently I did ask himbecause they both have expressed
feeling negatively about how I operate.
And, and so I just kind of talkedabout feeling like a, not a bad
(45:24):
father, but that's what I'm,that's what I'm questioning.
It's like, have I done well with him?
And so he thinks I'm a great person.
Like that was, that's what he said.
He thinks I'm a great person.
I just don't listen aswell as he'd like me to.
And so that's thefeedback that I've gotten.
And then some other feedback that.
(45:46):
It wasn't really feedback to me,but he's had a couple of different
girlfriends over the last few years.
And he just was talking one day abouthow all their parents and everybody
around them just rave about him.
Talk about how respectful he is and allthese good qualities and all these things.
(46:07):
And then this was the part that got me.
He said, yeah, I get that from my dad.
And yeah, I didn't knowthat he saw me that way one.
And.
And I knew that he displayed those things,but the fact that he attributed his good
qualities to me was something that was,
(46:31):
yeah, it was surprising.
Yeah, it was surprising.
Cause I didn't think thathe thought of me that way.
Yeah, he's reflected to me a lot, um,because again, we have some continuous
communication, almost too much formy, that my wife says, um, basically
(46:58):
I talk too much is what they say.
Which is one of the, ironically, notironically, one of the things that I
have, Harped on him about over the courseof his life is like being not talking
as much because he literally would justbe making sounds and talking and just
saying stuff just for no reason, but,or just for his own entertainment and
(47:26):
yeah, to be reckoning with that nowmyself, or it's like, Oh, I guess I do
talk too much and to be trying to reservemyself more, um, in conversations, at
least with him, because if he's sayingthat I don't listen as much, then I guess
the thing that I'm doing is talking.
Um, so yeah, it's obviously a journey,but the feedback that I've gotten from
(47:49):
both of them has been mixed, wherethey're just very transparent about the
things that they don't like, but thenthey're also very, uh, complimentary
with the things that they think aregood, even if they don't like them.
You know, and I always believe thatfor them to be able to share that with
(48:10):
you, it's, it's You've done a goodjob, because they feel safe with you.
Yeah, yeah, and that's what I said.
That's, that's, it's like if I haven'tdone anything, at least I have kept
The lines of communication openwhere we can figure stuff out still.
And my oldest will talk about stuff thatI don't care to hear all the time, but
(48:35):
I'm grateful that it's being shared.
Like, literally like intimate things.
And just casually talking tome, casually, you know, cussing.
Like, I'm just like, okay, I guess I am asafe place for them to just be themselves.
So yes, it's a mixed bag of feelingsbecause on one end, that intention
(49:02):
of just being quote unquotebetter father, um, I was present.
I mean, I am present.
There have been times where thathas been weaponized against me in
conversations with my oldest though.
Like in some of the intense momentswhere it was something like, what you
think that just being around is like, youknow, what being a good father is like,
(49:26):
that's a low bar or something like that.
I don't remember exactly thewords, but that was the sentiment.
And uh,
so it was a very mixed bag, butI've definitely just been present.
available to them in the ways that
(49:46):
at least I think are most meaningful.
So, I mean, the jury's stillout, obviously the, the parenting
relationship, it just continues to grow.
So it's always new.
It's always new.
Each one of them is different.
Like even having the newborn, it's like,I don't feel like I know what I'm doing.
(50:07):
I, I recognize I'm less worried aboutthings just going crazy for no reason.
And I, I don't worry.
I wasn't prone to worry before, butI worry even less now about things.
And so that's out of the way.
But in terms of like how to parent,I don't have, I don't have a clue.
(50:29):
So, and each stage is different.
So now that they're getting into their.
You know, they're in their late teens.
They'll be in their 20s.
They're starting relationships.
They're doing this.
I don't know how to do any of that.
So it's all figuring out in real time.
We have a few minutes.
I would love for you to talk aboutyour book love with no place to land.
(50:53):
And also a second book is coming out.
Yeah.
So my book, after I left law enforcement,I went on this journey of really
looking to reactivate my, my heartand be connected and feel like I'm
expressive and, and contributingto the world in a positive way.
(51:18):
I really opened myself up and learnedsome significant things about the concept
of kindness and the ability for thepractice of kindness to heal trauma.
And
it led me into this world ofexperimentation of this practice
(51:41):
or this principle that reallygenerated a lot of well being over
the course of the next year afterI left my law enforcement career.
And then, um, I was marriedfor almost 14 years at the time
and my wife died by suicide.
(52:02):
And it was through that experiencethat I felt like my heart just
kind of got cracked wide open,where I was feeling even more
deeply than I had in a long time.
It opened me up to so much more goodness,but surrendering to my, surrendering
through my grief journey, rather than
(52:27):
saying that I had to do it a certainway or, um, and just let it flow.
Like, I never stopped myself fromexpressing the emotions when they
came up and I just rode thosewaves whenever and wherever I was.
And I feel like that, I believethat that is what contributed to
such a, a swift, um, And dynamicchange in my life at the time, said
(52:51):
I just wanted to, to keep living.
Um, and so I remember after, uh, shepassed away and we were still at the
church during the repast or, or whateverit is and having a meal and then everybody
was leaving and it was just me and maybea couple of other people just cleaning
(53:13):
up and this heaviness just came overme where it was like, this was done.
I felt the temptation to want tojust crawl into a hole somewhere
and it was very heavy.
And then I remembered that Iwasn't the only one going through
(53:34):
it, that it was, that my childrenwere experiencing this too.
And what did they need?
And do, would I want to addinsult to injury by like having
them lose another parent?
You know, figuratively speaking,and so I just decided that I just
(53:55):
wanted to live and open my heart up.
And so, the vision that I got aroundthat was, um, the discovery, if you
will, that I see grief as this, asthe healing process that occurs when
we go through significant changes.
And, that when we, We have asignificant change, the energy or
(54:17):
the emotion or the love that we hadgoing into the particular thing that
shifted is now like a fluttering birdthat doesn't have anywhere to go.
And so that was the idea of thetitle love with no place to land.
And so it was that love is the,your love or your, the livelihood or
connection that you had to somethingthat shifted, it could be anything,
(54:39):
you know, we feel those changes.
Most significantly when it's somebodysignificant in our life who dies, but
it's not because of them Leaving soto speak as much as it is that we have
to reorient our identity in the worldAnd so love in no place to land is
this I call it a vibe because it's avirtual interactive book experience.
(55:01):
It has some Multimedia stuff thatgoes with it that kind of walks people
through their own course of And soI share my story in it, obviously,
and then extract the principlesthat I gained during those times.
And the hopes is that it just helpspeople leverage grief into growth.
(55:25):
That grief is what it is.
But, I've chosen to believe that whenwe go through those changes, it is an
elevating experience if we allow it to be.
And so surrendering to thatprocess, um, is what helps it be
a smoother, easier transition.
(55:46):
And so it's my story in part.
And then those principlesthat helped me have.
A relatively short, quote unquote,short, uh, intensive initial grieving
experience of just a few monthsbefore I was fully open and living.
(56:08):
Thanks for sharing that.
It's, uh, that's far.
When
When your first wife, when she passed, didyour community step in and look after you?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um, immediately.
Um, we were surrounded by folks andI was in California at the time.
So, um, I was in the processof transitioning to California.
(56:32):
And so I came back to myhometown of Kansas City and yeah.
I mean, my kids were always taken care of.
Uh, I mean, people gave usresources and money and, uh, time.
And it was, dare I say, it was easy.
It was easy because of having such agreat, supportive, connected community.
(56:56):
I mean, literally after the funeral,the, the church was like right
down the street from the house thatwe lived in, like a block away.
And we hadn't finished cleaning outeverything from that house and, um, cause
we were again in transition to moving.
And then she died in thathouse when I was away.
(57:16):
Um, and so it was the firsttime that I had even been there
really, or had the courage to goin there, uh, since she had died.
And it was a little, a group of, Idon't know, six, seven, eight guys
that just kind of randomly came over,brought some cigars and some whiskey.
And we ended up just sitting around thetable and they just let me Let me talk
(57:40):
if I was if I wanted to and then we movedoutside or to the porch to smoke cigars
and we just kept just communing and Itwas just the feeling of being held up
like nobody did anything in particular.
They just were present Andthat definitely allowed me.
Meanwhile, my children are withanother part of the community.
(58:01):
And so, yes, community wascentral to my ability to, um,
heal in a, in a way that felt reallyeasy compared to what it could have been.
Last question of thepodcast is always any advice
(58:26):
I've just been open to wherethis conversation has gone and
so I'm grateful for that flow.
If I was going to leave anybody withanything in this conversation, though,
especially being a BIPOC audience,
the tendency I've noticed, at leastin the Black community and maybe in
(58:49):
others, is that when we feel likethere is no, uh, equality or justice or
things of that nature, the tendency isto want to fight for justice or fight
for, um, the tendency is to fight.
And I believe that fightingdoes have a place, um, but it's
(59:09):
a very rare and rarely needed.
And what I've learned in my lifeis that surrender over struggle
has been a very, um, elevating andaccelerating, um, thing to incorporate.
That when I've just, when I trust thatlife is good and that it's working for my
(59:34):
benefit, That the most challenging thingsthat I go through, I really intended
to move me forward and move me up inmy self, um, actualization, realization
of who I am, the growth of who I am.
And so, if there was anything, ifthere's anybody listening that is prone
(59:56):
to fight, internally or externally, togive yourself the gift of surrender.
to know that you are taken care ofand that all the good things that
you desire can be available to you.
Um, yeah, that's what I would love forthem to get that in their experience.
(01:00:18):
Cause I know viscerally, we like justreact to things and feel like we got to
just like, But that guardedness of thefight stance, it has two aspects to it.
Yeah.
One, there might not be thingsthat get in as easily, but the
greatness and the goodness of whowe are, doesn't get out as well.
And that's the part that we miss,that we don't get to experience
(01:00:42):
ourselves being whatever we think isthe greatest because we're guarded.
And so open your heart and surrenderto the goodness of your life and
yeah, watch yourself evolve.
(01:01:04):
Cause I believe that we are on a, on ourway to a time that, um, the, the ills
of European colonialism are waning, um,and over the next couple of decades and
century, it will be all but eradicated.
And I believe that because I thinkit's a natural cycle of life that.
(01:01:28):
The things that have been set upjust don't have the ability to be
sustained and they will break down.
And so if we can just participate inthat process, um, by giving the greatness
that we are to the world, then it
can be much more enjoyableand less energy exhaustive.
(01:01:52):
A hundred percent, becausewhatever you resist, persists.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally.
Give it, you give it power.
You know, I'm just going to saythis, but surrendering is hard.
It can be.
It can be.
It requires an immense amount of faith.
Yes.
It requires an immenseamount of positive faith.
(01:02:13):
We have negative faith.
We have faith in the things that wedon't think are going to go well.
And so we bolster ourselves inanticipation of those things,
but that's an act of faith.
It's a misuse of faith, in my opinion.
And so, yes, it feels hardto surrender, but it's only.
Because we have a natural biologicaltendency to fight to survive.
(01:02:40):
But where we are in the modernworld is that we don't have the
same kind of threats that our bodywas designed to fight against.
And so these are all internal.
And we do have the ability towield those things when we, uh, put
attention and intention into it.
Yeah, I often tell clients that too.
(01:03:02):
Trust.
Trust in the process.
Yeah, you're still here.
Like, if you have the ability, and thisis one of the things that I share with
folks, is like, if you have the abilityto assess your sense of safety, then
the likelihood that you're safe is high.
If you have enough of some stillnessin your, your sphere, in your world
(01:03:25):
to be like, I want to feel safe.
It's like, how are you doing that?
Because if you were actuallyin imminent danger, your, all
your faculties would go into.
into, into work, they would, theywould go to work and you wouldn't
even be aware of what you were doing.
That's how well we are designed.
That's how well we work.
This is a great system.
(01:03:49):
And so I, and I've seen this, I mean,in my police work, it's like when
there is actually something that isdangerous, you just respond, you react.
It's not a thing thatyou have to think about.
And so if you're thinking aboutdanger, you're probably not in it.
(01:04:09):
And so the surrender part is like, Oh,this is just my mind doing what it does.
Thank you for such arich conversation, Don.
Thank you.
I really, really loved having you on.
My Chinese auntie, we'rehere, I'm excited about that.
(01:04:31):
I was like, I never hada Chinese auntie, so.
I'm happy to be your Chinese auntie.
Thank you.
I am grateful.
This is, this is an excellent,excellent conversation.
Um, thank you very much foryour time and attention.
Thank you.
(01:04:52):
Trust and surrender.
It can be hard.
When you're going through a difficulttime to trust that things will work out.
But, you know, I oftenthink about it this way is.
If you do your best.
And you've explored all your options.
(01:05:16):
Slow down surrender because whatother options do you have?
Always remember to call in your community.
I've said this in previous episodes,if you don't have community,
because you are an immigrant.
Or you don't have family closeby start building community.
Join book clubs.
Join a community center.
(01:05:38):
If you can.
Take some classes, or dosome volunteering work.
We are not meant to live this life alone.
Take care of yourself.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of the Conversations
With Your Chinese Auntie Podcast.
(01:05:58):
If you're enjoying the show, pleasefeel free to rate, subscribe,
and leave a review whereveryou listen to your podcasts.
That helps others find the show,and we greatly appreciate it.
Also, remember to sign upfor our newsletter to receive
free materials and updates.
Links in the website, patriciapetersen.
ca.
That's P A T R I C I A P E T E R S E N.
(01:06:22):
C A.
Again, thanks for listening.
We hope you have a great week, andwe'll see you in the next episode.
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to conversationswith your Chinese Auntie.
Yiyi that's me.
I hope you had a great summer.
And I can't believeit's already September..
In this episode, we welcome Don Carter.
We talk about.
Quite a few things and what really stoodout to me with this conversation was
(00:28):
how easy it is to have a chat with Don.
We talk about many differentthings about Don growing up
with no father figure,but he was surrounded by.
Community.
Especially on his mother's side.
So, yeah, the topic of communitycame up about following your heart.
(00:51):
And, Fatherhood and alsodealing with loss and change.
Trigger warning here.
We talk about suicide towardsthe end of the episode.
So please take care of your heartas you listen to this episode.
Don is an entrepreneur speaker writer andtransformational coach who helps black
(01:13):
professionals and entrepreneur create morerevenue and impact in their businesses
and freedom and abundance in life.
Don helps untapped entrepreneursand executive leaders eliminate
limitation and imposter syndrome.
I will add the link for Don's websiteand his book in the show notes.
(01:43):
Good morning, Don.
Good morning.
Welcome.
Thank you for saying yes.
No, it's my pleasure.
Thank you for opening the invitation.
Yeah.
Please introduce yourself,yeah, my name is Don Carter.
I am, uh,
Transformational executivecoach and business shaman.
(02:06):
I adopted that, that title after severalyears of, um, several years after
a client spontaneously uttered it.
And I recognized.
The truth in it of being, um,an intermediary, an intermediary
between the tangible and intangiblethings in the business journey for
(02:27):
my clients and an agent of healing,if you will, in that context.
So, um, that's something thatI just really put on this year,
so I'm trying it out a lot more.
Um, but it was.
They first said that probablythree, three and a half years ago.
Um, and it really resonated deep with mebecause of my recognition of some of the
(02:51):
story that I have on my own origin and,um, the transformation of that over time.
And so I've spent a lot of myyears really serving other people.
I was in law enforcement for abouta decade, uh, and was a detective.
And now I spend my energies and attention.
(03:13):
helping people investigate their innerlives so they can grow their business.
How did you, I'm curious when you sharedwith me that you were a detective,
how did you transition from that?
Well, it was a long transition interms of vocationally, but it was
(03:33):
really just my way of leading.
And um, and I had actually even workedwith several, uh, business owners
prior to leaving law enforcement.
And I've always had theentrepreneurial bent, https: otter.
(03:53):
ai Really just finding my own wayin my entrepreneurial pursuits.
Um, and so I collected a lot ofwisdom and a lot of insight and,
um, connected the more human side towhat people think is just, you know,
(04:16):
tactical, strategical business stuff.
And so I helped people really makebreakthroughs that they weren't able
to make just by knowing what to do.
It was about, um, Really elevatingwho they are in their own minds and
allowing themselves to continue tounfurl and to transform into that person.
(04:40):
And so I've been doing that but
when I got to the point in my lawenforcement career when I was just
surviving it, it was about eightand a half years into it and I
recognized that I was becoming thekind of person I didn't want to be and
(05:02):
the incident that, that brought thatto, to really in front of my face,
uh, when I was a detective was when Iwas talking to a victim of a violent
crime because I was in violent crimesand she was just completely broken.
Like, couldn't even barely talk tome because of, um, because of how
(05:23):
distraught she was by what occurred.
And as I'm listening to her, I'm justsitting there with my notepad and
I'm like, okay, what happened next?
Okay, what happened next?
And I felt this doubt of the,um, I was really like feeling
like, is it really that deep?
Like, do you really have to be?
(05:45):
And so IF because she was so emotionalthat she couldn't barely talk and I was.
And looking at that with skepticism,I recognized in that moment,
it was like, this woman justneeds somebody to listen to her.
She just needs to feel safe.
She just needs just some comfort.
And I'm sitting here justlike, just the facts, man.
(06:07):
And that was the point whereI realized that I was like,
yeah, it's time for me to go.
And that's because I actually rememberedI had a prayer in early in my career,
like when I was in the police academythat, that I think I remember saying,
asking, Prayer that God wouldn'tlet my heart get hard toward people.
And in that moment with this woman inthis interview, I, it was almost like
(06:32):
I was looking down on myself from thecorner of the room and just like, yeah,
dude, this is not who we want to be.
And so that's when I knewit was time for me to go.
And then it was probably another year anda half before I like fully let myself go.
Um, and I just broke away andI wanted to come alive again.
(06:54):
And not look at the worldas a negative place.
Um, Just by virtue of the nature of thework that I did, that people don't call
the police when things are going right.
They only call them whenthings are going wrong.
So if that's my work, is only seeingpeople at their worst and hardest
times, then naturally my, my ownperception is gonna shift to that.
(07:16):
And so when I felt that startto happen, I was like, Yeah,
this isn't, this isn't for me.
And, I wanted to restore my own sense ofwell being and goodness about the world.
So I left and just went on anadventure of figuring out what
I, who I was becoming next.
(07:38):
To the chagrin of my family and tothe, the, against the wise counsel of
my wife at the time and my kid, causethere's some esteem to it, but, um,
yeah, when people, when you tell peopleyou're a detective, they're like, Oh.
And it was not glamorous, obviously,but it felt like it was crushing my soul
(08:04):
by the time I was, it was time to go.
You know, I am curious, you know,it really touched me when you say
you were just sitting there andyou were just writing when she
was sharing what happened to her.
How much was that?
Was it?
The training, the expectations that as alaw enforcement that you are expected to
(08:26):
do it, because even, you know, I've talkedabout this a bit in other episodes is that
even as a therapist, the Western idea isthat you're not supposed to closeness.
Your clients, and that is a veryWestern idea is like with you
(08:48):
having to keep like almost like abarrier between you and the victim.
Yeah, is that was that the expectations.
Yeah, it's the expectationand it was unspoken.
Actually, it was unspoken in directtraining, but they would say things like.
If you become a part of the problem,then you're not helping anymore.
(09:10):
And so basically the sentiment wasbe detached from the circumstance.
Um, and really they were mostly talkingabout in dangerous situations, like don't
do anything crazy so that you don't becomesomebody that we need to be helping.
But in another sense, once you, once wegot out into the work in the field, that
was just the sentiment, the expectation.
(09:32):
It was like, I have tostay composed because.
If I don't, then I'mnot able to do my job.
And so that was, that was it.
I'm just doing my job.
That's what people would say.
And so it's like the job itselfis being detached from the very
thing that got you into it, whichwas to care for and help people.
(09:54):
Cause the vast majority of thepolice officers that I knew and
know really cared about people.
But there's a switch thathappens after about two or three
years, um, that they should be.
There's just not enough coping mechanismsthat are healthy that allow people to
stay connected to their own emotionsand still be able to do the job.
(10:17):
And so I think therapists aresimilar in terms of that tendency,
at least here in the West.
Um, and yeah, it's interesting to me thatyou even mentioned that that's a Western
sentiment because it feels like it.
It's like more clinical rather than.
Um, yeah.
(10:37):
And it feel it just, and it alwaysfeels just so lifeless, really.
And cold.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I interviewed the, woman who wrotethe book Decolonizing Therapy, Mm.
And it's a, it's a term that's, A lotof us who identify as people of color
(10:58):
and therapists of color, it's like we'relooking at it now because it's like
everything that's taught to us in master'sprogram of counseling and therapy.
It's was.
The ideas were from the colonizedWestern white male idea.
But over the last, I think, 10, 15years is that as a therapist, who's
(11:22):
a person of color, you're looking atthese skills and then you're working
with clients who are people of color.
You're like, they're not getting better.
Why are they not getting better?
Because the individualistic Westernthinking of I'm your therapist, the
Subcontext of I am better in a sense, likequote unquote, it doesn't work because for
(11:49):
those of us who grew up in a collectivistculture, community is so important.
You know, community isthe, is the most important.
It's the healing agent.
It's the thing that allows you tobe seen for better or for worse
or for comfort or discomfort.
And it's very, it gives you theopportunity to one, get out of your
(12:14):
own way sometimes, as well as, youknow, be nurtured and cared for in a
very, um, intimate and soothing way.
And so, yes, the fact that we.
And I didn't typically think of it as,well, maybe we'll get into the story
later, but I didn't think of it as beingcolonized as much, but that's essentially
(12:36):
what it is because that's what we live in.
We live in a society that is,uh, built on that framework.
And so that's a lot of how I actuallyreckoned with my own identity, uh,
probably eight years ago or so,which is another detective story.
But I had, um, and I don't mean to getoff topic already, but, uh, yeah, I
(13:02):
remember when I was sitting with thiswhite woman who I was interviewing, who
was a witness of a crime and, uh, she'sdescribing the suspect and she said,
he's, he's, you know, he was a black male.
I was in robbery, which is, um, is therobbery homicide unit and robbery in.
The state of Missouri is really aboutforcefully taking property from somebody.
(13:25):
So it's not just breaking insomewhere or something like that.
It's encountering a person andviolently taking something from them,
either by threat, force or harm.
And so 90
plus percent of the suspectsin, in robbery crimes in
my area were black males.
(13:48):
And, um, she's so, so she's justcasually describing the suspect.
He's a black male.
He's wearing this, wearing that,uh, this height, this weight.
And then she pauses really strange.
And she's like, but he'slight skinned like you.
(14:10):
It kind of pricked me a littlebit where I was like, what?
Light skin.
Okay.
But then I just wrote it down lightskin, like me, whatever that means.
And.
So it kind of jolted me, it was twoweeks later that I was sitting with
a younger black female and goingthrough the same interview process.
(14:31):
And then at the end of it, she saysalmost the exact same thing, describes
the suspect and then pauses and islike, but he's light skinned like you.
And this actually sent me reeling,where I remember going home.
pacing around my dining room because Iwas just so distraught by the idea that
people were calling me light skinnedbecause in my mind, I was black, black.
(14:52):
Like, I was like the color of my shirt,black is how I thought of myself.
And so long story short.
I ended up just questioningeverything, because I was like, if
this isn't true about me, then I'mnot actually the color black like I
think I am, and what I believe blackidentity is, what else isn't true?
(15:13):
And then I realized that everything thatI was learned was, everything that I've
learned about myself was based in thissystem of, uh, really a forced identity.
And I'd never felt connected to thenarrative of being directly from Africa,
even in the last few generations.
Um, because to me it was like,that's not that long ago.
(15:35):
That's only a few hundred years.
I, my family would have said somethingand there's this, This piece that a lot
of black people in the United Stateshave at least where their family tells
them that they are Indigenous is likethe quote that black people kind of say
(15:57):
It's like I got Indian in myfamily So that's coming up in
the 80s and 90s if somebody saidthat it was almost like they were
It was almost like they were tryingto highlight some Esteem that they
have because they had some Indian intheir family But when you're looking
at our phenotypes and the traitsand all of those other things, it's
(16:19):
like, our families told us this.
It wasn't just that people were tryingto make something up that wasn't true.
And so when I, thankfully,this sent me on a journey of
really some deep self discovery.
One, I just suspended my beliefs abouteverything because I was like, if
everything is founded on this, thisidea of my identity being this, and
(16:40):
it came from somewhere that maybeis untrue, what else is untrue?
I don't know.
And, um, thankfully mygrandmother was still alive.
And after I did some digging, I foundlike this photo of these two people
that look like just typical lookingindigenous folks, and they were told
(17:02):
they were supposed to be my great, greatgrandparents or my great grandparents.
One of the two.
So I showed my grandmotherthis photo that I found.
Cause I found it like through ancestry.
com or something like that.
And I was researching my family history.
And she said, where'd you get that?
And I was like, I told her where, andshe was like, that's grandma and grandpa.
(17:23):
And I was grateful, because she was inher late, she was in her 90s at the time,
and uh, it really affirmed to me thatlike, oh, my people are like from here.
So I asked her, I was like, Granny,did, did your people ever tell you
you were from anywhere but here?
(17:43):
She was like, no, we're from Louisiana.
She told me Cato County and she toldme all this stuff about what, and I
was just like, okay, that makes sense.
And so then I started lookingit up and found some information
about, The Cato Indians, whichare, you know, darker complected,
uh, indigenous folks in the South.
(18:04):
And then they got pushed out intoTexas and, um, what's now Texas.
And so I started to really connect to thestory that I believe most of the Black
people in the United States that aredescendants of indigenous people here.
And, and so I flipped the narrative formyself, just that, you know, my only
(18:28):
ancestry is slavery from people whowere subjugated and kidnapped and all
of that other stuff from another land,because as a black man, having very
few generations of people to draw fromin this, in a few hundred years, you
feel like you don't have an identity.
And it's one of the struggles that, that,I've seen, uh, black people have, um,
(18:52):
is there's no connection to the land.
There's no connection to a land.
And so they're just kind of listlessand, and, you know, wandering.
But when I reckon with that for myself,it was, you know, instantaneous, um,
restoration of the sense of peace anda sense of curiosity and wonder about
(19:16):
the world, um, instead of just beingpigeonholed into this idea of who I was.
And so all of the things thatwe have inherited have their
root in this colonial mindset.
Which I identify as something that iscontentious with the world around it.
(19:37):
It's like as a, as a, as a Colin,whatever you call it, I was about
to say a colonist, but somebody whogoes and establishes new colonies
elsewhere, if you have your own agenda,it's natural that you would want to
subdue whatever is there already.
It's not about blending with it andEuropean colonialism in it very uniquely.
(20:03):
is a conquering mindset, where whensomething is different than what I
think is true and right, then I conquerit, rather than collaborate with it.
And so, in therapy or in any kindof clinical setting, or in any
setting where you're dealing withpeople in a direct way, this sense
(20:27):
of detachment is what, Keeps you,
I guess, uh, viable in that.
And so as a therapist, I imagine, youknow, what I would imagine is, is taught
is that you can't get into people'stroubles because then you like, it starts
tainting your ability to help them.
(20:48):
And I can see the wisdom in some of that.
And I can also recognize thepower in really helping people
be seen as a means of them.
Gaining some sense of healingor something like that.
(21:08):
Yeah.
I, uh, it's, I mean, I think, well,I believe that all of us wants to be
seen and heard, you know, and I lovethat you use the word collaborative
because that's what it is, you know,but when you come in from the mindset
that I'm better than you, my way or thehighway, then that's when things just.
(21:31):
Don't go well.
Would you share a bit about yourupbringing, because I am so curious
for you to have the mindset thatthings are not working, I need to
(21:51):
shift, or you go to your grandmotherand start to research your ancestry.
It's very, it's always interesting tome to see how and where you got that.
thinking and your childhood when youhad some great elders and mentors
(22:13):
growing up that impacted who you are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I was raised by a single momand I had three other siblings.
We all had different fathers though.
And mine was the onlyone that wasn't around.
Um, and so I grew up without afather, didn't meet him until
(22:38):
I was 16 for the first time andbefore that I didn't know his name.
I didn't have any clue aboutwhere his whereabouts were.
Um, and so most of my childhood was,um, I mean, all of it was on my maternal
side, my mom's side of the family.
And because she was a single mom,um, Um, there was a lot of time
(22:58):
that we spent with my grandparentsand so her family was really solid.
My grandparents were married for, Idon't know, 60 something years, I think.
And um, she had three brothers.
So we had uncles and there was aninteresting bond that my grandfather
had with his next door neighborbecause they were in a part of the
(23:21):
city where I grew up in Kansas City.
Um, black people weren't allowed tolive in certain parts at a certain time.
Um, but my grandparents inthe fifties moved into the
neighborhood that they were in.
for the rest of their lives, basically,and so that was the context for it, but
(23:42):
my grandparents and the neighbors werelike the first black families to move
into the neighborhood, so they werereally bonded, and they became like
family, and so I'm actually named aftermy grandfather and his best friend,
uh, his next door neighbor, um, formy first and middle name, because he
was like a father to my mom as well.
(24:03):
And so those two families reallyprovided a lot of safety because
they were next door neighbors.
And so we play in betweenthe houses or all around.
And it was just a really sweetenvironment in terms of the people
where there was just some, exceptthere was great acceptance and love.
And in the midst of whatever, all theregular ills of urban, you know, Blighted
(24:29):
neighborhood life is and so it wasn'twithout challenges or what some would
call tragedies but it was full of Love andacceptance and so I had this duality that
I grew up in where I was simultaneouslySafe with the people around me and
I felt like the world was dangerous.
(24:50):
And so I had a lot of paranoia In my earlyyears, like I remember being like super
paranoid from maybe ages eight to 16.
Um, I remember feeling like I wasn'tgonna live past 16 because for
young black boys in the 90s, it waslike, that was just the narrative.
(25:10):
And so I remember being terrified,like approaching my 16th birthday,
even though I wasn't in the streetsor I wasn't really, um, In any kind of
activity that would be conducive to mehaving my life snuffed out early, but
Because that was like the, the weight ofwhat it meant to be a young black boy.
(25:33):
I just felt it.
So that was my internal environment,but my external environment was like
people who just really loved andaccepted and really nurtured me,
but especially my mother and the onething she told me my whole life that I
actually didn't really just, it didn'tclick until I was like in my thirties.
(25:53):
Um, she always told me to follow my heart.
Yeah.
That was like her admonition.
That was the thing.
So whenever we'd ask her somethingor whenever I'd have some She'd
just say just follow your heart.
And so that was the message overand over and over and over again
It's like retune into yourself.
(26:14):
And so between the people and mymother's You know, direct influences.
She's such a great lady.
She's such a sweet andnurturing and caring person.
That was the context that I grew up into allow me to feel like I could explore.
(26:35):
And so I was always out and about.
Um, I mean, I don't, I don't evenknow if my mother traveled before
I did internationally, um, becauseI just had all these opportunities.
She just let me explore.
Um, And she facilitated my exploration.
Uh, and so I thinkthat's a big part of it.
(26:55):
Being, feeling loved.
My grandfather, on my mom'sside, has had ten other siblings.
And so, that line just kind of really,uh, created a context of commitment
to family and just love for family.
(27:16):
And I think that made ahuge difference for me.
Love that.
I, you know, I love what you saidabout your mom, how great she is and
the message is to follow your heart.
Is there an example that stands outto you that when you look at your
(27:36):
mom, and you're like, Oh yeah, thisis when she followed her heart.
Yeah, I see.
I think that might besome of the disconnect.
I think my mom was always really just trueto herself She she she loved and served
and really took care and takes care ofpeople from this really open heart and
(27:59):
She got some pretty tough boundarieswhen it's time to and so watching her
like operate like that I mean one ofthe reasons she had multiple marriages.
It was because Like, as a kid, Iwasn't thinking negatively about
it, but it was like, that is kindof like a strange sounding thing.
(28:20):
By a certain time, my mom had five,was married five times, and so that
can sound like it's not working.
But what I recognize that it is thatmy mom, deeply caring, deeply loving,
and then when she realizes that therewas some, something to, to cut off
is like, yeah, she has, she's, shehas a high endurance for, um, BS.
(28:47):
And when it's the time to drawthe line, she can draw the line.
And so that's what I watched her do.
I don't know about her following herheart, except in just how she lived
in terms of like having any particulardreams or wanting to do certain things.
She just always lived well.
I mean, I watched her, um, If she neededto, she would, you know, set up a nice
(29:11):
environment and take a bubble bath.
She would have music going all the time.
She, there'd be incense.
There was just an environment of justnurture and love for herself and for us.
And so that's what I observed.
And I never connected that tothe follow your heart piece.
And that's why I said, maybe Ididn't get it until I was much older.
(29:32):
Um, because.
After going through what I've beenthrough over the last, you know, six,
six plus years, um, since leaving lawenforcement, following my heart and that
being kind of my anchor internally isthe thing that allowed me to stay solid
through some very challenging times.
(29:55):
Um, and so I looked up.
You know, it was probably about four orfive years ago, and I was like, oh, wow,
like I'm living in that way where I'm justfollowing what I think is good to follow,
despite what it looks like, despite whatI'm, what cares I could have about it
and worries, I'm just following my heart.
(30:17):
And so since she instilled that inme, I had to call her and I think I
was like 30 or something like that.
And I was like, yeah, thank you for,you know, Putting that in me, because
all the goodness that I was enjoyingat the time was a result of me having
the courage to follow my own heart.
That's so sweet.
Am I, am I correct in saying thatfor her and for you, the ability
(30:41):
to follow your heart is becausethere's a community behind you.
I believe that.
Yes.
Um,
And because it's the, the waterthat I lived in, like, I just felt
it, just felt that sense of, andthere's a lot of us that are really
(31:03):
strange all throughout my family.
And everybody just kind of wenttheir own way and did their
own thing and came together.
And so it wasn't even likea staged sense of community.
It was just like a, acontinuous gathering.
Like, I remember little thingslike being at my grandparent's
(31:25):
house, my grandmother would frychicken like once or twice a week.
I mean, it was a thing.
And so literally neighbors comeover, people from around the
block would come over, Hey, Mr.
C, that's what they wouldcall my grandfather, Mr.
Carter or whatever.
And it was just such a, yeah,it was a great community,
(31:47):
like the whole block, I think.
Because my grandparents had livedthere for so long, by the time I
was born, they were, you know, bythe time I was born, they had been
there, you know, 25, 30 years.
And then, uh, yeah, they wereestablished and seen as, as
just caring, reliable people.
(32:08):
And so that just brought thatsense of magnetism to, At least our
house, our, our grandmother's house.
And, um, so there wasalways a sense of community.
And
definitely, like, it's tip, it's, it'slike a, a, a typical thing that I hear
(32:31):
black people my age and older say,or, um, But I remember running around
the neighborhood and having somebodythat I did not even know, be like,
Hey, your mama is looking for you.
And like be able to have heron the phone or they called or
whatever, just to be what felt likeit was far away from the house.
It was probably only like two blocks away.
(32:53):
But it was two worlds away as a,as a kid, and to know that people
were like seeing you and looking outand being like, you need to go home
because your folks are looking for you.
They wonder where you are.
That was a very great senseof community and safety.
Um, so definitely, and even now, likeI moved to California for several
(33:16):
years and it was because I didn'thave the ability to connect with the
community as well there that I was like.
Oh, we could probablymove back to the Midwest.
Um,
and so community is one of thosethings that has always allowed me
to thrive, I think, and I never, butI've always been such an individual.
(33:37):
And so.
Those things are not, you know,mutually exclusive at all.
It's not like my identity is inthe community, it's just that my
identity is within the community.
And I get to be myself and I getto be these other people as well.
Yeah.
Well, and I think a good solidcommunity allows you to be who you are.
(34:07):
Accept you for who you are,and you can go off and explore
and then they welcome you back.
Mm-Hmm.
, that's the, that's the, the stabilityof community that helps you to explore.
I'm curious, so you havethree children and Mm-Hmm.
. you grew up without a father, I'mcurious, was there, I'm sure there is,
(34:30):
but conscious decision when you becamea father that, you know, you were like,
okay, I want to be a different father.
I want to show up differently becauseyou didn't grow up with a father.
Yeah.
It's kind of backwards from thatwhere it wasn't when I became a
(34:53):
father, that decision was made.
It was when I was six or seven.
And I remember being in my mom's Hyundaihatchback, it was like tan, I'm sitting in
the back seat with my younger brother whowas three years younger than me, I think.
(35:13):
And so I know he wasprobably four at the oldest.
So.
I couldn't have beenmore than six or seven.
I was like two and a halfyears older than him.
And I don't remember what wewere arguing about, but we
were arguing about something.
And in the midst of that heatedargument for these young people,
(35:34):
he's literally four, I remember it.
And he looks at me and he says, well,at least I know who my father is.
As just like a, and then I just stoppedand just started bawling my eyes out.
Like I can still feel it.
Like I'm 43 years old andI can still feel that.
(35:55):
And my mom, she was very sweet.
And she just turned around tome, just crying my eyes out.
And she just said, baby, I'm really sorry.
And then she said, you just make surethat you're a better father than yours is.
And I don't remember if it was abetter father or just make sure that
you are, yeah, I think it was better.
(36:16):
She just said, you just make sure thatyou are a better father than yours.
And I took that on as a mantleas a six or seven year old kid.
And I know she meant well, but thatwas a burden at that point where I was
like, Oh, I'm going to become a father.
(36:39):
And so then literally every girlthat I liked from the time that I
was seven or eight years old, I waslike looking at his wife material.
I was literally looking at them as, aslike prospective wife, because that to
me was the pathway to having children.
And so, and nobodyactually ever told me that.
(37:01):
Which is interesting.
Um, but that's what I equated to itwas, Alright, I'ma get married and have
children so that I can be a father.
And so, In my early 20s with my firsttwo children, Um, early mid 20s,
There was great intention in terms ofhow I allowed myself to be a father.
(37:27):
And so, I mean, I was very nurturingand, and loved kids at the time.
And so it just was a delight forme to have these little people to
just love on and to explore with.
And so for my first, myoldest, who was born female.
There was just this rich connection and Iwas, my grandfather was the only man that
(37:51):
really kind of stood out in my childhood.
His best friend that I was namedafter died long before I was born.
Um, but he was just kind of aquiet, I mean, he was in his
sixties by the time I was born.
So he was just kind of a reserved,quiet old man at the time.
And he said very few words, but Iremember just his presence, but there
(38:15):
wasn't a lot of male like role models,if you will, for me, my uncles were
kind of bouncing around doing stuff.
One of my uncles, he was the cool one.
And so we would roll with him andmy cousin sometimes, and, um, But
there was nobody who like instilledanything in me and not anything,
but just anything directly.
(38:36):
Like this is how you parent.
Uh, this is, this is what thefather son relationship is like.
So with my oldest, who wasborn female, I felt connected.
I had my grandmother, I had anolder sister, had my mom, had
all the women that were around.
So I knew how to connectwith women in that way.
But then when my son was born,there was something that shifted
(38:59):
where, and this was right at thebeginning of my police career too.
So there was a lot of stress and a lotof things happening, a lot of changes,
but I felt like disconnected from him inthe father son relationship, because in
my mind, I didn't grow up with a father.
And so I don't know how to have arelationship with a father and son.
(39:20):
That's how it felt to me.
And so, with the intention ofwanting to be a great father, I
still didn't feel like I had thefaculties to do it with my son.
And that is something I'm actuallyeven wrestling with today.
Him being 17, and Uh, and with thenewborn, because my third one, when you
(39:45):
said I had three children, I was like,Oh, snap, I got three kids, she'll be
six weeks like tomorrow, or Sunday.
And, uh, I was nervous again, becausewe didn't find out the sex of the baby.
Until she was born, but, um, andso the whole time I'm like, if
(40:06):
it's a boy, how am I going to feel?
So even though I was always lookingforward to it, and even though I had
this great intention of being a quoteunquote better father than mine was,
um, that felt like there was a hugegap in my ability to deliver that.
And so here I am, 43.
(40:28):
And I have 19 year old, 17 yearold boy who's like, he just got
taller than me a couple weeks ago.
Um, and then this brand new baby.
And so I'm working on one end oflike, what kind of father am I to
let, like, how do I let them go well?
And then I'm ushering in this other one.
(40:49):
And so how, so I feel this stretch inmy own fatherhood that is, um, yeah,
it's really, really, it's daunting
and not in a negative way, but I'mjust like, I know, I don't know
what I'm doing and that's okay.
But the feeling of disappointmenthas been really sticky.
(41:14):
between me and myrelationship with my son.
And it's not even thatI'm disappointed in him.
I feel like I've disappointed myselfsomehow in what my expectations of
being a father were at six or seven.
Cause I did imagine it, but Ididn't deliver it in the way
that I thought I wanted to.
(41:36):
And so I felt like I missed out on alot of his early Like heart connection
years, um, and I didn't even feelemotionally connected to him until he
was like four and that kind of stillreverberates in, in our relationship
where it's just a little awkward.
I don't really know how to, um, feellike I'm connected with him as much as.
(42:03):
He seems like he's connected with me.
So yes, there was great intention andI know that I've been present as a
father and I know that I've been veryconnecting and loving and, uh, protective
when necessary and have helped thembe the kind of people who still want
to talk to me and in their, you know,To some degree, like they, and that's
(42:25):
been kind of my North Star is like,
I don't know what I'm doing,but I want to keep the lines of
communication open so that we canfigure it out together, if necessary.
And so that's, that's the best thatI think I could have done so far.
(42:45):
Um, But yeah, my kids are great,like they're great people.
It's just as a father, me wrestlingwith my own fatherhood the other
way, where I felt abandoned early on.
And then I felt abandoned asecond time when he passed away.
Um, I just am unsure what I'mdelivering to my own children.
(43:13):
I, well, I mean, for youto have that awareness.
How would father the children?
I think that says a lot thatyou are presently you're trying.
I am curious.
Have you ever asked your son, like howyou like, how he looks at you as a father?
(43:34):
Yeah.
Um, actually very recently.
And.
It's funny, we've been getting intoa lot more heated discussions lately.
And again, my son is amazing.
He's very considerateand loving and caring.
(43:55):
And so the things that I focus onwith him are like very small compared
to what parents might typicallyworry about for their children.
But I'm adamant about howmuch the small things matter.
But I've made a mistake of, at leastin my part, of feeling like Of causing
(44:16):
him to reflect back to me that he feelslike I'm just grilling him all the time.
I'm just talking about what's wrong,um, and I feel that pressure inside.
And so, I've asked him,
he's, he's volunteered attimes in these conversations.
It's like he just wants to put themirror up at me that the things that
(44:38):
I'm telling him are things that I'm notactually Reflecting to him in my behavior.
And so it feels like really petty Butit's often that in those conversation.
He's like He's like, you do the same thingand, and so I have to take that as like
his, him giving me insight unsolicited.
(45:01):
And then recently I did ask himbecause they both have expressed
feeling negatively about how I operate.
And, and so I just kind of talkedabout feeling like a, not a bad
(45:24):
father, but that's what I'm,that's what I'm questioning.
It's like, have I done well with him?
And so he thinks I'm a great person.
Like that was, that's what he said.
He thinks I'm a great person.
I just don't listen aswell as he'd like me to.
And so that's thefeedback that I've gotten.
And then some other feedback that.
(45:46):
It wasn't really feedback to me,but he's had a couple of different
girlfriends over the last few years.
And he just was talking one day abouthow all their parents and everybody
around them just rave about him.
Talk about how respectful he is and allthese good qualities and all these things.
(46:07):
And then this was the part that got me.
He said, yeah, I get that from my dad.
And yeah, I didn't knowthat he saw me that way one.
And.
And I knew that he displayed those things,but the fact that he attributed his good
qualities to me was something that was,
(46:31):
yeah, it was surprising.
Yeah, it was surprising.
Cause I didn't think thathe thought of me that way.
Yeah, he's reflected to me a lot, um,because again, we have some continuous
communication, almost too much formy, that my wife says, um, basically
(46:58):
I talk too much is what they say.
Which is one of the, ironically, notironically, one of the things that I
have, Harped on him about over the courseof his life is like being not talking
as much because he literally would justbe making sounds and talking and just
saying stuff just for no reason, but,or just for his own entertainment and
(47:26):
yeah, to be reckoning with that nowmyself, or it's like, Oh, I guess I do
talk too much and to be trying to reservemyself more, um, in conversations, at
least with him, because if he's sayingthat I don't listen as much, then I guess
the thing that I'm doing is talking.
Um, so yeah, it's obviously a journey,but the feedback that I've gotten from
(47:49):
both of them has been mixed, wherethey're just very transparent about the
things that they don't like, but thenthey're also very, uh, complimentary
with the things that they think aregood, even if they don't like them.
You know, and I always believe thatfor them to be able to share that with
(48:10):
you, it's, it's You've done a goodjob, because they feel safe with you.
Yeah, yeah, and that's what I said.
That's, that's, it's like if I haven'tdone anything, at least I have kept
The lines of communication openwhere we can figure stuff out still.
And my oldest will talk about stuff thatI don't care to hear all the time, but
(48:35):
I'm grateful that it's being shared.
Like, literally like intimate things.
And just casually talking tome, casually, you know, cussing.
Like, I'm just like, okay, I guess I am asafe place for them to just be themselves.
So yes, it's a mixed bag of feelingsbecause on one end, that intention
(49:02):
of just being quote unquotebetter father, um, I was present.
I mean, I am present.
There have been times where thathas been weaponized against me in
conversations with my oldest though.
Like in some of the intense momentswhere it was something like, what you
think that just being around is like, youknow, what being a good father is like,
(49:26):
that's a low bar or something like that.
I don't remember exactly thewords, but that was the sentiment.
And uh,
so it was a very mixed bag, butI've definitely just been present.
available to them in the ways that
(49:46):
at least I think are most meaningful.
So, I mean, the jury's stillout, obviously the, the parenting
relationship, it just continues to grow.
So it's always new.
It's always new.
Each one of them is different.
Like even having the newborn, it's like,I don't feel like I know what I'm doing.
(50:07):
I, I recognize I'm less worried aboutthings just going crazy for no reason.
And I, I don't worry.
I wasn't prone to worry before, butI worry even less now about things.
And so that's out of the way.
But in terms of like how to parent,I don't have, I don't have a clue.
(50:29):
So, and each stage is different.
So now that they're getting into their.
You know, they're in their late teens.
They'll be in their 20s.
They're starting relationships.
They're doing this.
I don't know how to do any of that.
So it's all figuring out in real time.
We have a few minutes.
I would love for you to talk aboutyour book love with no place to land.
(50:53):
And also a second book is coming out.
Yeah.
So my book, after I left law enforcement,I went on this journey of really
looking to reactivate my, my heartand be connected and feel like I'm
expressive and, and contributingto the world in a positive way.
(51:18):
I really opened myself up and learnedsome significant things about the concept
of kindness and the ability for thepractice of kindness to heal trauma.
And
it led me into this world ofexperimentation of this practice
(51:41):
or this principle that reallygenerated a lot of well being over
the course of the next year afterI left my law enforcement career.
And then, um, I was marriedfor almost 14 years at the time
and my wife died by suicide.
(52:02):
And it was through that experiencethat I felt like my heart just
kind of got cracked wide open,where I was feeling even more
deeply than I had in a long time.
It opened me up to so much more goodness,but surrendering to my, surrendering
through my grief journey, rather than
(52:27):
saying that I had to do it a certainway or, um, and just let it flow.
Like, I never stopped myself fromexpressing the emotions when they
came up and I just rode thosewaves whenever and wherever I was.
And I feel like that, I believethat that is what contributed to
such a, a swift, um, And dynamicchange in my life at the time, said
(52:51):
I just wanted to, to keep living.
Um, and so I remember after, uh, shepassed away and we were still at the
church during the repast or, or whateverit is and having a meal and then everybody
was leaving and it was just me and maybea couple of other people just cleaning
(53:13):
up and this heaviness just came overme where it was like, this was done.
I felt the temptation to want tojust crawl into a hole somewhere
and it was very heavy.
And then I remembered that Iwasn't the only one going through
(53:34):
it, that it was, that my childrenwere experiencing this too.
And what did they need?
And do, would I want to addinsult to injury by like having
them lose another parent?
You know, figuratively speaking,and so I just decided that I just
(53:55):
wanted to live and open my heart up.
And so, the vision that I got aroundthat was, um, the discovery, if you
will, that I see grief as this, asthe healing process that occurs when
we go through significant changes.
And, that when we, We have asignificant change, the energy or
(54:17):
the emotion or the love that we hadgoing into the particular thing that
shifted is now like a fluttering birdthat doesn't have anywhere to go.
And so that was the idea of thetitle love with no place to land.
And so it was that love is the,your love or your, the livelihood or
connection that you had to somethingthat shifted, it could be anything,
(54:39):
you know, we feel those changes.
Most significantly when it's somebodysignificant in our life who dies, but
it's not because of them Leaving soto speak as much as it is that we have
to reorient our identity in the worldAnd so love in no place to land is
this I call it a vibe because it's avirtual interactive book experience.
(55:01):
It has some Multimedia stuff thatgoes with it that kind of walks people
through their own course of And soI share my story in it, obviously,
and then extract the principlesthat I gained during those times.
And the hopes is that it just helpspeople leverage grief into growth.
(55:25):
That grief is what it is.
But, I've chosen to believe that whenwe go through those changes, it is an
elevating experience if we allow it to be.
And so surrendering to thatprocess, um, is what helps it be
a smoother, easier transition.
(55:46):
And so it's my story in part.
And then those principlesthat helped me have.
A relatively short, quote unquote,short, uh, intensive initial grieving
experience of just a few monthsbefore I was fully open and living.
(56:08):
Thanks for sharing that.
It's, uh, that's far.
When
When your first wife, when she passed, didyour community step in and look after you?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um, immediately.
Um, we were surrounded by folks andI was in California at the time.
So, um, I was in the processof transitioning to California.
(56:32):
And so I came back to myhometown of Kansas City and yeah.
I mean, my kids were always taken care of.
Uh, I mean, people gave usresources and money and, uh, time.
And it was, dare I say, it was easy.
It was easy because of having such agreat, supportive, connected community.
(56:56):
I mean, literally after the funeral,the, the church was like right
down the street from the house thatwe lived in, like a block away.
And we hadn't finished cleaning outeverything from that house and, um, cause
we were again in transition to moving.
And then she died in thathouse when I was away.
(57:16):
Um, and so it was the firsttime that I had even been there
really, or had the courage to goin there, uh, since she had died.
And it was a little, a group of, Idon't know, six, seven, eight guys
that just kind of randomly came over,brought some cigars and some whiskey.
And we ended up just sitting around thetable and they just let me Let me talk
(57:40):
if I was if I wanted to and then we movedoutside or to the porch to smoke cigars
and we just kept just communing and Itwas just the feeling of being held up
like nobody did anything in particular.
They just were present Andthat definitely allowed me.
Meanwhile, my children are withanother part of the community.
(58:01):
And so, yes, community wascentral to my ability to, um,
heal in a, in a way that felt reallyeasy compared to what it could have been.
Last question of thepodcast is always any advice
(58:26):
I've just been open to wherethis conversation has gone and
so I'm grateful for that flow.
If I was going to leave anybody withanything in this conversation, though,
especially being a BIPOC audience,
the tendency I've noticed, at leastin the Black community and maybe in
(58:49):
others, is that when we feel likethere is no, uh, equality or justice or
things of that nature, the tendency isto want to fight for justice or fight
for, um, the tendency is to fight.
And I believe that fightingdoes have a place, um, but it's
(59:09):
a very rare and rarely needed.
And what I've learned in my lifeis that surrender over struggle
has been a very, um, elevating andaccelerating, um, thing to incorporate.
That when I've just, when I trust thatlife is good and that it's working for my
(59:34):
benefit, That the most challenging thingsthat I go through, I really intended
to move me forward and move me up inmy self, um, actualization, realization
of who I am, the growth of who I am.
And so, if there was anything, ifthere's anybody listening that is prone
(59:56):
to fight, internally or externally, togive yourself the gift of surrender.
to know that you are taken care ofand that all the good things that
you desire can be available to you.
Um, yeah, that's what I would love forthem to get that in their experience.
(01:00:18):
Cause I know viscerally, we like justreact to things and feel like we got to
just like, But that guardedness of thefight stance, it has two aspects to it.
Yeah.
One, there might not be thingsthat get in as easily, but the
greatness and the goodness of whowe are, doesn't get out as well.
And that's the part that we miss,that we don't get to experience
(01:00:42):
ourselves being whatever we think isthe greatest because we're guarded.
And so open your heart and surrenderto the goodness of your life and
yeah, watch yourself evolve.
(01:01:04):
Cause I believe that we are on a, on ourway to a time that, um, the, the ills
of European colonialism are waning, um,and over the next couple of decades and
century, it will be all but eradicated.
And I believe that because I thinkit's a natural cycle of life that.
(01:01:28):
The things that have been set upjust don't have the ability to be
sustained and they will break down.
And so if we can just participate inthat process, um, by giving the greatness
that we are to the world, then it
can be much more enjoyableand less energy exhaustive.
(01:01:52):
A hundred percent, becausewhatever you resist, persists.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally.
Give it, you give it power.
You know, I'm just going to saythis, but surrendering is hard.
It can be.
It can be.
It requires an immense amount of faith.
Yes.
It requires an immenseamount of positive faith.
(01:02:13):
We have negative faith.
We have faith in the things that wedon't think are going to go well.
And so we bolster ourselves inanticipation of those things,
but that's an act of faith.
It's a misuse of faith, in my opinion.
And so, yes, it feels hardto surrender, but it's only.
Because we have a natural biologicaltendency to fight to survive.
(01:02:40):
But where we are in the modernworld is that we don't have the
same kind of threats that our bodywas designed to fight against.
And so these are all internal.
And we do have the ability towield those things when we, uh, put
attention and intention into it.
Yeah, I often tell clients that too.
(01:03:02):
Trust.
Trust in the process.
Yeah, you're still here.
Like, if you have the ability, and thisis one of the things that I share with
folks, is like, if you have the abilityto assess your sense of safety, then
the likelihood that you're safe is high.
If you have enough of some stillnessin your, your sphere, in your world
(01:03:25):
to be like, I want to feel safe.
It's like, how are you doing that?
Because if you were actuallyin imminent danger, your, all
your faculties would go into.
into, into work, they would, theywould go to work and you wouldn't
even be aware of what you were doing.
That's how well we are designed.
That's how well we work.
This is a great system.
(01:03:49):
And so I, and I've seen this, I mean,in my police work, it's like when
there is actually something that isdangerous, you just respond, you react.
It's not a thing thatyou have to think about.
And so if you're thinking aboutdanger, you're probably not in it.
(01:04:09):
And so the surrender part is like, Oh,this is just my mind doing what it does.
Thank you for such arich conversation, Don.
Thank you.
I really, really loved having you on.
My Chinese auntie, we'rehere, I'm excited about that.
(01:04:31):
I was like, I never hada Chinese auntie, so.
I'm happy to be your Chinese auntie.
Thank you.
I am grateful.
This is, this is an excellent,excellent conversation.
Um, thank you very much foryour time and attention.
Thank you.
(01:04:52):
Trust and surrender.
It can be hard.
When you're going through a difficulttime to trust that things will work out.
But, you know, I oftenthink about it this way is.
If you do your best.
And you've explored all your options.
(01:05:16):
Slow down surrender because whatother options do you have?
Always remember to call in your community.
I've said this in previous episodes,if you don't have community,
because you are an immigrant.
Or you don't have family closeby start building community.
Join book clubs.
Join a community center.
(01:05:38):
If you can.
Take some classes, or dosome volunteering work.
We are not meant to live this life alone.
Take care of yourself.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of the Conversations
With Your Chinese Auntie Podcast.
(01:05:58):
If you're enjoying the show, pleasefeel free to rate, subscribe,
and leave a review whereveryou listen to your podcasts.
That helps others find the show,and we greatly appreciate it.
Also, remember to sign upfor our newsletter to receive
free materials and updates.
Links in the website, patriciapetersen.
ca.
That's P A T R I C I A P E T E R S E N.
(01:06:22):
C A.
Again, thanks for listening.
We hope you have a great week, andwe'll see you in the next episode.
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