October 28, 2024 • 28 mins
Lauren Flemister, Assistant Director of Planning and Public Works at Pierce County, brings over 17 years of experience across community and regional planning, architecture, and public affairs. Her impressive career includes leadership roles in the City of Tacoma's Planning and Development Services Department and the City of Seattle’s Office of Planning and Community Development. In the Curiosity at Work podcast, Lauren shared insights about how curiosity can transform complex work environments. One of her key approaches is fostering an environment where employees feel safe to ask questions and challenge traditional ways of thinking. This, she believes, is essential for organizations to adapt and thrive in the face of rapid change.
During the podcast conversation with Dr. Julie Pham, Lauren highlighted the importance of bridging long-range planning with infrastructure development. At Pierce County, she oversees a diverse range of operations, from maintaining roads to managing airports and solid waste. Her current focus is on integrating strategic planning with implementation, ensuring that underserved communities receive the attention and resources they need. By creating a workplace culture that values curiosity, Lauren encourages her team to view obstacles as opportunities for learning and growth.
Lauren’s unique background in architecture, urban planning, and public affairs influences her leadership style, making her a bridge-builder within the organization. She emphasizes the need for continuous learning and innovation, even in environments where people have long tenures. Whether it’s through supporting staff in career development or ensuring seamless knowledge transfer during the "silver tsunami" of retirements, Lauren’s leadership philosophy is deeply rooted in the belief that fostering curiosity not only enhances individual growth but also strengthens communities.
Connect with Dr. Julie Pham:
- LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliepham2/
- Website:https://curiositybased.com/
- Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/juliephamphd/
Connect with Lauren Flemister:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hi, welcome to the Curiosity at Work podcast.
(00:27):
I'm Dr. Julie Pham, CEO of Curiosity Based, where we help people practice curiosity in the world.
And on the Curiosity at Work podcast, we get to talk to people leaders about how they encourage and foster curiosity in their workplaces.
Today, I get to chat with Lauren Flemister, who is the Assistant Director of Planning and Public Works at Pierce County, which is the second largest county in the state of Washington.
(00:56):
Lauren and I met a few years ago when she was at the City of Seattle, and I've been eagerly following her career as she takes on this new role.
So welcome, Lauren, to Curiosity at Work.
Thanks for having me, Julie.
So Lauren, could you just share with our listeners what you do and what is that, how many people are there?
(01:17):
How does, how does, how do people in your, what does your workplace look like?
So I'm actually an urban planner by trade, but in my newest role, I'm actually in a department that combines planning and public works, which is a little bit of an unconventional model, I think, in Washington state, but it really allows for planning and strategy and policy to marry with implementation.
(01:40):
So I think that it's really helpful to have that connection.
So it's almost 850 people at any given time in my department, so it's incredibly large, and we, our portfolio is really significant.
We have everything from operating a ferry to, to airports.
(02:03):
We design, construct, and maintain roads.
We are responsible for surface water management in unincorporated county.
We do solid waste.
In addition to that, we also do long range planning, so everything from our comprehensive plan to looking at sustainability and what that means for our county moving into the future.
(02:32):
So a really large suite of things, and I actually even forgot permitting, which is one of our most essential functions, so lots going on at Pierce County Planning and Public Works.
So that is a really big range.
So in that, I didn't know that the airports and the ferry were included in that.
So does that mean that you have the ferry workers too?
(02:54):
Is that part of it?
Yeah, so that's a really great question in terms of, you know, kind of how we're stacked between permanent employees and contractors.
Our airports are fully run internally by a small but mighty team, but our ferries, we have a ferry team, and we also have contractors who really manage the day-to-day boat runs and things like that.
(03:22):
So we're mostly in-house with what we do, but, you know, solid waste is contracted to haulers, ferry work is contracted for those runs, and a number of other things.
Obviously, we hire consultants to do design work on some of our roads and bridges and for some of our policy work as well.
(03:45):
But a majority of the work that Planning and Public Works does is done by our incredible team.
Wow.
So about 850 FTEs with lots of different functions as well.
Yes, yes.
And so are most people then in person?
We're operating with a workforce that is folks who are out in the field every single day to folks who are doing essentially call center work to people who are developing policy and interfacing with elected.
(04:12):
So it is a true mix.
We have people who are almost entirely remote, and they just come in for sort of, you know, training or team building activities or special meetings.
And then we have people who are out in the field or at their desk every single day.
So we really run the gamut based on what the work requires and what works best for the individual and then for that team.
(04:40):
So I can imagine with such a wide range of functions and such a wide range of working environments that that could actually present, it can be challenging to practice curiosity.
So we think of that curiosity base.
We think of it as a practice, which means sometimes it's hard to do.
(05:00):
And it's actually really important to acknowledge when when we don't do it, even though we want to, but we don't always.
So could you share with us an example of what prevents practicing curiosity with at your workplace?
Yeah, I think it's a couple of things.
And I think one of the major ones that I've seen is sort of a fear of not looking like you're an expert is a really significant one.
(05:30):
So, you know, observation and asking questions are some of the most obvious ways I think that you demonstrate that you're curious.
But I think a lot of people sometimes see asking questions as implying that they're not strong in an area that they don't know something.
But I think folks who are tuning into this are probably really keyed into the idea that asking questions can make you better at what you do and that sometimes your assumptions aren't right.
(06:03):
And so that it can be really important to prod.
And I think also there's just a world beyond what your own experiences are.
And if you're not asking questions, you're not able to understand other people's sort of worldview perspectives or simply an area of information that you might not be tapped into.
(06:24):
So I think that is one that you see a lot of, particularly for people who are earlier mid career and actually do have a tremendous amount to learn about the work they do.
And I would say some of the examples that I've seen are really let me presenting to commissions and counsel.
(06:48):
I think one of the best things you can do when you're presenting is to seem very open and to ask follow up questions.
Even if you aren't being asked a question, you can certainly follow up with an elected or a commissioner and try to understand where they're coming from on a criticism or on something that might be favorable.
(07:12):
And I really encourage staff to be more open minded, to be loose and to kind of be prepared to say, I don't know, and to be OK with that.
Sometimes saying, I don't know, I need to ask some questions or I don't know, I'm going to refer to my expert team and I'll get back to you is one of the smartest things you can say.
(07:39):
So I really think that's something that what comes off maybe as a weakness to some is actually displaying vulnerability that opens you up to sometimes better outcomes.
It's interesting because I know that in your at the county, there have been people who've been there for decades, and yet you're saying that it's actually the people who are more junior in their career who feel this hesitancy to ask questions.
(08:08):
Why is that?
Is that because they don't want to look like they don't know in front of all these people who are super senior?
And then also the second part of this, because you said that you see this with this happening in front of the council, in front of the commission.
I mean, are they sending off vibes that you need to know?
Or what is what's kind of creating that perfectionism?
You know, I think it's a self-assuredness, right?
(08:32):
Like a self-confidence that I think answers both the questions you asked.
You know, with junior staff, I think you're trying to find your way, build your career, build your knowledge base.
And I think there's a lot of pressure in our culture to project strength and to seem like you know the answer to everything.
(09:00):
So I don't I don't get the feeling at all that's coming from electeds.
I think people are just afraid to not feel like they're completely on top of things, even if it's not a reasonable expectation to be completely on top of an answer.
I know I actually was at council, I think last month or the month before.
(09:23):
And the council chair who was sitting on a committee asked me a question.
And I said to him, you know, I really appreciate the question.
I'm not an expert in this area, but I'm happy to get back to you.
It was totally fine.
No negative repercussions.
It also allows me, I think something else that's really beautiful about this, it allows me to elevate the expertise and knowledge of my team.
(09:53):
So I'm able to say I have people that are supporting this work, that are doing the work and are experts in this.
I'm representing the work, but I am not the entire embodiment of that work.
And I think it's always really important to be able to share credit and to give credit to other people.
(10:15):
And one other thing, Julia, that I wanted to talk about when we're talking about, you know, the curiosity piece and the long-tenured folks, so sort of on the other end of the spectrum.
Another thing that prevents people from displaying curiosity is being stuck in the old way of doing things and defaulting to that and then not feeling compelled to innovate or find process improvements.
(10:40):
Because this old way is working just fine and not questioning that.
You definitely see that a lot with government folks who've been in their jobs for a very long time.
Their expertise, their historical knowledge is so valuable, so important, and we wouldn't be able to do what we do without them.
(11:02):
Conversely, I think pushing and prodding and becoming more comfortable with being open to making those changes, making improvements and modernizing some functions is sort of really essential to a healthy workplace.
And I also think a stimulated and healthy workforce.
Actually, a follow-up question on that.
I know there could be big private companies where people are there for a long time, but they move around a lot.
(11:28):
In your Pierce County, people who are there for a long time, are they moving around a lot in different departments or is it kind of just they're in this department and they're moving up in that department or staying in the same role versus moving laterally?
That's a really great question, and I think it's actually unique to my department.
I talked about all the different functions that we have in planning and public works.
(11:51):
I think that does allow for a lot of both lateral and upward movement.
So sometimes people move to another division for a promotional opportunity or they'll just switch divisions to just try something new.
So there is a tremendous amount of movement at my workplace, and I actually think it's awesome to see people wanting to try new things and to stretch themselves and to learn a new role.
(12:18):
And so that's also actually actively encouraged then?
Yes.
Oh, that's great.
It is actively encouraged.
So because I – and this is moving on to the second question is, after we – learning doesn't stop at school, and so how do we help organizations become learning organizations so that people do feel invested in it and that they're continuing to grow?
(12:40):
So could you share an example of what you do to help encourage practicing curiosity?
Something that I've done ever since I've had the opportunity and the really amazing opportunity to supervise and manage people is I always sit down, either whether I'm coming into a new role.
(13:02):
Right now I'm actually acting division manager for one of our divisions in the department.
I tend to sit down with staff and ask them things like, you know, what are your career aspirations?
What projects do you want to work on?
What areas do you want to grow in as a professional?
(13:23):
I ask them questions about, you know, how they enjoy being managed by a certain person or how they enjoy collaborating with their team, their teammates, so I can really understand how they like to work, how they think they can be successful, and where they want to go.
(13:44):
And I think knowing that people in leadership care about your career development, that really opens people up in so many ways.
And so I really try to separate what I need people to do in their job task from who they are as people and to elevate who they are as people and where they see themselves going and making it clear that I'm obviously invested in them doing a good job.
(14:17):
I am invested in their trajectory that may have them, you know, at Pierce County for 20 years and may take them somewhere else in a couple of years and just really championing that.
I think that openness and encouragement on my part then allows for people to seek training, seek development opportunities, and sometimes to push to develop things that they're not comfortable with or that maybe isn't at the top of their list but they may think will help them perform in their role better.
(14:53):
So I think it really pays dividends and just really opens up that manager-staff relationship tremendously.
So what I'm hearing is that that curiosity can be practiced in just that one-on-one coaching and just showing interest in someone and then them feeling, wow, someone cares about my growth.
I know oftentimes we talk about scale and how do we grow things, and yet in this case, sometimes it's that one-on-one conversation that can really have ripple effects in terms of spreading curiosity.
(15:25):
Absolutely.
So Lauren, I actually got another question for you because you're actually pretty new in this role, and this is a much bigger role than you had previously.
What are you learning about yourself as you take on this role?
It's not even been quite a year, right?
No, I've been there, I believe, 10 months.
Yeah, so not even a year.
(15:47):
I think it kind of leans into what I spoke to earlier, but my value in this role is not necessarily about my subject matter expertise.
I bring that to bear in some spaces,
but really it's about my judgment,
my strategic thinking,
(16:08):
my interest in people,
growing and developing people,
coaching people, mentoring people,
and ultimately trying to get people
to the place in the organization or just within their role
where they're happy with their work,
where they're confident with their performance,
where they feel they can reach out for support and help
(16:28):
if something comes up.
I really see a lot of my role here as being relational with staff, with supervisors, with section and division managers, with electeds, with council staff, with community members, with stakeholders in different areas.
(16:50):
So I kind of think I'm really homing my talents as a bridge builder, given, again, the breadth of the work that we do in planning and public works.
There's just a lot of different forums and different types of people and ways in which I can kind of exercise my relational skills.
So I've really been homing in on that, whereas I think previously a lot of my focus was on managing specific programs, advancing specific policy, and it's become more generalized.
(17:24):
And, of course, that makes sense because it's a much larger organization and I'm a little bit higher up in the organization than I've been at previous roles.
That's great to see you being pushed into this bridge builder role now.
And so how I've heard that in large organizations, there's that, what do they call it, the silver tsunami, where there's a lot of people who are retiring and then that means a lot of people who are having to come in.
(17:58):
Are you experiencing that right now?
Because that kind of tees it up for my next question around how do you recruit for people?
Yeah, we are experiencing it and I think we're forecasting out a number of years that we're going to continue to be in that silver tsunami.
So something that my boss put in place that I think was really smart was really to create the foundation for knowledge transfer.
(18:27):
So she is now allowed to hire people while we still have that retiring staff in place.
So there's an overlap and sometimes a significant overlap so that they can train that person, that they can, you know, talk about different historical and relational strategic, you know, pieces of the work, parts of the work and that's invaluable.
(19:01):
I actually was able to sit with my predecessor for two weeks before she retired and just having that time with her and being able to, you know, even just spitball about things, it was invaluable.
So I think trying to get out ahead of it, we also brought on a knowledge transfer specialist and she's able to do things like sit down with folks who are retiring and have a specific knowledge set and do things like build trainings, you know, develop policies and procedures, standard operating procedures with those folks before they head off to the next phase of their life.
(19:41):
So we're trying to be strategic and get out ahead of it knowing that this is going to be something we're dealing with for years to come.
How do you balance, okay, this is the way things have been done and then leaving also opportunity for new things to get done, kind of speaking to what you had said earlier, there've been people who've been in their jobs for so long and just, oh, this is the way we do things and yet here's your opportunity to bring in fresh people and fresh ideas.
(20:11):
So how do you balance that?
So I really love that question because we're going through it right now where my boss is very ambitious, very smart and just really wants to have us perform at the highest level for the residents of Pierce County.
But I think there is sort of that balance of driving and pushing in that way, but also people struggling sometimes to not feel fatigued by being in constant flux and change.
(20:48):
And also there's a real benefit, Julie, in being able to just hone your skills in like your day-to-day work and just get better at like your standard baseline work as well.
And just giving people kind of a chance to recharge because you can't be in transition and change mode 100% of the time.
(21:09):
And so I think we're trying to find that sweet spot where there's process improvement, there's continuous improvement, but that we're giving people a chance to catch their breath, to be able to get better at their day-to-day job and to be able to celebrate the wins as well instead of solely just driving to improve.
(21:35):
So it's a balancing act.
It's actually really tough to do
because there's always,
particularly from the 30,000 foot level
that the director team or the supervisors
may be operating from,
you always see things you can make better,
but it's a fine line
and we want people to feel energized
(21:55):
when they come to work
instead of going,
oh man, I know this is gonna be different
and I'm really just exhausted
that we've been doing this change process
for the last year.
So yeah, I would say in terms of my learning curve, it's something I'll probably be working on my whole career to find what that balance looks like.
(22:16):
And it varies with organizations, with the time, with sort of what's going on in culture and in society as to how people are able to manage change at work.
That is such a good point about curiosity and learning can be energizing and it can also be exhausting because sometimes people just wanna be, and I wanna do the thing I'm good at and I wanna do it.
(22:45):
So how do you, with this silver tsunami and with all of this and that smart planning of there're gonna be a lot of new people, how do you, when you're interviewing, how do you look for curiosity?
And maybe this is not, there's you directly and then also how do you train your people and your team to look for that too?
(23:07):
What's your favorite interview question or method to do that?
I mean, I think one of the most important things and this is kind of tried and true, but I've just found it to be important is I really look at the questions that people ask the panel or the individual when they have an opportunity at the end of interviews.
(23:29):
It's actually not always a problem if they don't have a question.
I think it should be authentic and coming from a genuine place, but I really look at the quality of the questions.
And also I really love when people ask things like, what is the environment like with your elected officials?
(23:51):
Or what is the composition of the team?
Are there a lot of more tenured or senior people?
Are they younger?
What's the morale like?
So sort of asking those sort of like environmental, cultural, relational questions is something I really look for.
In terms of questions I like to ask, I really like to ask questions about how people think about strategy and policy and then also how people are able to like encapsulate approach.
(24:23):
How do I approach supervising?
How do I approach complex problems?
How do I approach if an elected official wants to do one thing, but it's, you know, flies in the face of a state directive?
So I really, I like to ask questions like that, where you're sort of having to put on your problem solving hat that you may need to tap into unusual resources or seek counsel and sort of seeing how somebody's mind works.
(24:54):
I really like to do that.
And that helps me understand, I think how collaborative and open somebody is by the way they craft their answers.
Yeah.
And I can imagine that or they're going to be doing this, what you described those scenarios for the first time.
And so it's just, what would you do in that thought process?
(25:16):
So last question is, what is a resource that you turn to for inspiration for curiosity?
And this could be in your personal life, your professional life.
I think the thing that helps me practice curiosity at work is to be able to tap into my creative side.
So I think for me coming from actually an architecture background, that's kind of how I started my career before I moved over to urban planning and government leadership is architecture, interior design.
(25:49):
So something that I do every morning is actually look at either architectural digest or dwell and just look at how people choose to decorate their homes or what kind of art they have hanging.
How do the rooms compliment?
It's actually interesting because it gives you an ability to appreciate choices somebody makes that might not be your own and to see just the dynamism and good differences that exist between people.
(26:28):
And also, I appreciate beauty.
So it's really kind of inspires me a little bit and makes me feel really good before I start my day.
I don't doom scroll.
I love that answer, Lauren, because we can all do that.
(26:51):
Just being even observing, oh, what you said about how do people put things together that would be really different from the way I would put things together.
And also speaks to, I think sometimes people think, oh, if I studied this, then I have to do this for the rest of my life.
And the fact that you're not an active architect anymore, yet it still influences you.
I think for me, even though I'm not an active historian anymore, it always influences how I approach my work.
(27:15):
So Lauren, if people want to get in touch with you, learn more about what you do, what Pierce County does, how can they get in touch with you?
Sure.
So if you want to talk to me about Pierce County things, you can always send me an email.
That's a great way to reach out to me.
It's Lauren, period, Flemister.
And I can spell that L-A-U-R-E-N, period, F-L-E-M-I-S-T-E-R at PierceCountyWA.gov. You can always find me on LinkedIn.
(27:45):
And yeah, I'm always happy to engage, talk.
I frequently get pinged by university students, both ones I've interacted with and ones from around the country, just to talk about urban planning, government leadership.
So I'm always happy to have that conversation.
I will make the time.
Lauren, thank you so much for all of your insights and practical tips today.
(28:07):
Thank you, listeners, and wishing you all the ability to practice curiosity at work.
Thank you.
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hi, welcome to the Curiosity at Work podcast.
(00:27):
I'm Dr. Julie Pham, CEO of Curiosity Based, where we help people practice curiosity in the world.
And on the Curiosity at Work podcast, we get to talk to people leaders about how they encourage and foster curiosity in their workplaces.
Today, I get to chat with Lauren Flemister, who is the Assistant Director of Planning and Public Works at Pierce County, which is the second largest county in the state of Washington.
(00:56):
Lauren and I met a few years ago when she was at the City of Seattle, and I've been eagerly following her career as she takes on this new role.
So welcome, Lauren, to Curiosity at Work.
Thanks for having me, Julie.
So Lauren, could you just share with our listeners what you do and what is that, how many people are there?
(01:17):
How does, how does, how do people in your, what does your workplace look like?
So I'm actually an urban planner by trade, but in my newest role, I'm actually in a department that combines planning and public works, which is a little bit of an unconventional model, I think, in Washington state, but it really allows for planning and strategy and policy to marry with implementation.
(01:40):
So I think that it's really helpful to have that connection.
So it's almost 850 people at any given time in my department, so it's incredibly large, and we, our portfolio is really significant.
We have everything from operating a ferry to, to airports.
(02:03):
We design, construct, and maintain roads.
We are responsible for surface water management in unincorporated county.
We do solid waste.
In addition to that, we also do long range planning, so everything from our comprehensive plan to looking at sustainability and what that means for our county moving into the future.
(02:32):
So a really large suite of things, and I actually even forgot permitting, which is one of our most essential functions, so lots going on at Pierce County Planning and Public Works.
So that is a really big range.
So in that, I didn't know that the airports and the ferry were included in that.
So does that mean that you have the ferry workers too?
(02:54):
Is that part of it?
Yeah, so that's a really great question in terms of, you know, kind of how we're stacked between permanent employees and contractors.
Our airports are fully run internally by a small but mighty team, but our ferries, we have a ferry team, and we also have contractors who really manage the day-to-day boat runs and things like that.
(03:22):
So we're mostly in-house with what we do, but, you know, solid waste is contracted to haulers, ferry work is contracted for those runs, and a number of other things.
Obviously, we hire consultants to do design work on some of our roads and bridges and for some of our policy work as well.
(03:45):
But a majority of the work that Planning and Public Works does is done by our incredible team.
Wow.
So about 850 FTEs with lots of different functions as well.
Yes, yes.
And so are most people then in person?
We're operating with a workforce that is folks who are out in the field every single day to folks who are doing essentially call center work to people who are developing policy and interfacing with elected.
(04:12):
So it is a true mix.
We have people who are almost entirely remote, and they just come in for sort of, you know, training or team building activities or special meetings.
And then we have people who are out in the field or at their desk every single day.
So we really run the gamut based on what the work requires and what works best for the individual and then for that team.
(04:40):
So I can imagine with such a wide range of functions and such a wide range of working environments that that could actually present, it can be challenging to practice curiosity.
So we think of that curiosity base.
We think of it as a practice, which means sometimes it's hard to do.
(05:00):
And it's actually really important to acknowledge when when we don't do it, even though we want to, but we don't always.
So could you share with us an example of what prevents practicing curiosity with at your workplace?
Yeah, I think it's a couple of things.
And I think one of the major ones that I've seen is sort of a fear of not looking like you're an expert is a really significant one.
(05:30):
So, you know, observation and asking questions are some of the most obvious ways I think that you demonstrate that you're curious.
But I think a lot of people sometimes see asking questions as implying that they're not strong in an area that they don't know something.
But I think folks who are tuning into this are probably really keyed into the idea that asking questions can make you better at what you do and that sometimes your assumptions aren't right.
(06:03):
And so that it can be really important to prod.
And I think also there's just a world beyond what your own experiences are.
And if you're not asking questions, you're not able to understand other people's sort of worldview perspectives or simply an area of information that you might not be tapped into.
(06:24):
So I think that is one that you see a lot of, particularly for people who are earlier mid career and actually do have a tremendous amount to learn about the work they do.
And I would say some of the examples that I've seen are really let me presenting to commissions and counsel.
(06:48):
I think one of the best things you can do when you're presenting is to seem very open and to ask follow up questions.
Even if you aren't being asked a question, you can certainly follow up with an elected or a commissioner and try to understand where they're coming from on a criticism or on something that might be favorable.
(07:12):
And I really encourage staff to be more open minded, to be loose and to kind of be prepared to say, I don't know, and to be OK with that.
Sometimes saying, I don't know, I need to ask some questions or I don't know, I'm going to refer to my expert team and I'll get back to you is one of the smartest things you can say.
(07:39):
So I really think that's something that what comes off maybe as a weakness to some is actually displaying vulnerability that opens you up to sometimes better outcomes.
It's interesting because I know that in your at the county, there have been people who've been there for decades, and yet you're saying that it's actually the people who are more junior in their career who feel this hesitancy to ask questions.
(08:08):
Why is that?
Is that because they don't want to look like they don't know in front of all these people who are super senior?
And then also the second part of this, because you said that you see this with this happening in front of the council, in front of the commission.
I mean, are they sending off vibes that you need to know?
Or what is what's kind of creating that perfectionism?
You know, I think it's a self-assuredness, right?
(08:32):
Like a self-confidence that I think answers both the questions you asked.
You know, with junior staff, I think you're trying to find your way, build your career, build your knowledge base.
And I think there's a lot of pressure in our culture to project strength and to seem like you know the answer to everything.
(09:00):
So I don't I don't get the feeling at all that's coming from electeds.
I think people are just afraid to not feel like they're completely on top of things, even if it's not a reasonable expectation to be completely on top of an answer.
I know I actually was at council, I think last month or the month before.
(09:23):
And the council chair who was sitting on a committee asked me a question.
And I said to him, you know, I really appreciate the question.
I'm not an expert in this area, but I'm happy to get back to you.
It was totally fine.
No negative repercussions.
It also allows me, I think something else that's really beautiful about this, it allows me to elevate the expertise and knowledge of my team.
(09:53):
So I'm able to say I have people that are supporting this work, that are doing the work and are experts in this.
I'm representing the work, but I am not the entire embodiment of that work.
And I think it's always really important to be able to share credit and to give credit to other people.
(10:15):
And one other thing, Julia, that I wanted to talk about when we're talking about, you know, the curiosity piece and the long-tenured folks, so sort of on the other end of the spectrum.
Another thing that prevents people from displaying curiosity is being stuck in the old way of doing things and defaulting to that and then not feeling compelled to innovate or find process improvements.
(10:40):
Because this old way is working just fine and not questioning that.
You definitely see that a lot with government folks who've been in their jobs for a very long time.
Their expertise, their historical knowledge is so valuable, so important, and we wouldn't be able to do what we do without them.
(11:02):
Conversely, I think pushing and prodding and becoming more comfortable with being open to making those changes, making improvements and modernizing some functions is sort of really essential to a healthy workplace.
And I also think a stimulated and healthy workforce.
Actually, a follow-up question on that.
I know there could be big private companies where people are there for a long time, but they move around a lot.
(11:28):
In your Pierce County, people who are there for a long time, are they moving around a lot in different departments or is it kind of just they're in this department and they're moving up in that department or staying in the same role versus moving laterally?
That's a really great question, and I think it's actually unique to my department.
I talked about all the different functions that we have in planning and public works.
(11:51):
I think that does allow for a lot of both lateral and upward movement.
So sometimes people move to another division for a promotional opportunity or they'll just switch divisions to just try something new.
So there is a tremendous amount of movement at my workplace, and I actually think it's awesome to see people wanting to try new things and to stretch themselves and to learn a new role.
(12:18):
And so that's also actually actively encouraged then?
Yes.
Oh, that's great.
It is actively encouraged.
So because I – and this is moving on to the second question is, after we – learning doesn't stop at school, and so how do we help organizations become learning organizations so that people do feel invested in it and that they're continuing to grow?
(12:40):
So could you share an example of what you do to help encourage practicing curiosity?
Something that I've done ever since I've had the opportunity and the really amazing opportunity to supervise and manage people is I always sit down, either whether I'm coming into a new role.
(13:02):
Right now I'm actually acting division manager for one of our divisions in the department.
I tend to sit down with staff and ask them things like, you know, what are your career aspirations?
What projects do you want to work on?
What areas do you want to grow in as a professional?
(13:23):
I ask them questions about, you know, how they enjoy being managed by a certain person or how they enjoy collaborating with their team, their teammates, so I can really understand how they like to work, how they think they can be successful, and where they want to go.
(13:44):
And I think knowing that people in leadership care about your career development, that really opens people up in so many ways.
And so I really try to separate what I need people to do in their job task from who they are as people and to elevate who they are as people and where they see themselves going and making it clear that I'm obviously invested in them doing a good job.
(14:17):
I am invested in their trajectory that may have them, you know, at Pierce County for 20 years and may take them somewhere else in a couple of years and just really championing that.
I think that openness and encouragement on my part then allows for people to seek training, seek development opportunities, and sometimes to push to develop things that they're not comfortable with or that maybe isn't at the top of their list but they may think will help them perform in their role better.
(14:53):
So I think it really pays dividends and just really opens up that manager-staff relationship tremendously.
So what I'm hearing is that that curiosity can be practiced in just that one-on-one coaching and just showing interest in someone and then them feeling, wow, someone cares about my growth.
I know oftentimes we talk about scale and how do we grow things, and yet in this case, sometimes it's that one-on-one conversation that can really have ripple effects in terms of spreading curiosity.
(15:25):
Absolutely.
So Lauren, I actually got another question for you because you're actually pretty new in this role, and this is a much bigger role than you had previously.
What are you learning about yourself as you take on this role?
It's not even been quite a year, right?
No, I've been there, I believe, 10 months.
Yeah, so not even a year.
(15:47):
I think it kind of leans into what I spoke to earlier, but my value in this role is not necessarily about my subject matter expertise.
I bring that to bear in some spaces,
but really it's about my judgment,
my strategic thinking,
(16:08):
my interest in people,
growing and developing people,
coaching people, mentoring people,
and ultimately trying to get people
to the place in the organization or just within their role
where they're happy with their work,
where they're confident with their performance,
where they feel they can reach out for support and help
(16:28):
if something comes up.
I really see a lot of my role here as being relational with staff, with supervisors, with section and division managers, with electeds, with council staff, with community members, with stakeholders in different areas.
(16:50):
So I kind of think I'm really homing my talents as a bridge builder, given, again, the breadth of the work that we do in planning and public works.
There's just a lot of different forums and different types of people and ways in which I can kind of exercise my relational skills.
So I've really been homing in on that, whereas I think previously a lot of my focus was on managing specific programs, advancing specific policy, and it's become more generalized.
(17:24):
And, of course, that makes sense because it's a much larger organization and I'm a little bit higher up in the organization than I've been at previous roles.
That's great to see you being pushed into this bridge builder role now.
And so how I've heard that in large organizations, there's that, what do they call it, the silver tsunami, where there's a lot of people who are retiring and then that means a lot of people who are having to come in.
(17:58):
Are you experiencing that right now?
Because that kind of tees it up for my next question around how do you recruit for people?
Yeah, we are experiencing it and I think we're forecasting out a number of years that we're going to continue to be in that silver tsunami.
So something that my boss put in place that I think was really smart was really to create the foundation for knowledge transfer.
(18:27):
So she is now allowed to hire people while we still have that retiring staff in place.
So there's an overlap and sometimes a significant overlap so that they can train that person, that they can, you know, talk about different historical and relational strategic, you know, pieces of the work, parts of the work and that's invaluable.
(19:01):
I actually was able to sit with my predecessor for two weeks before she retired and just having that time with her and being able to, you know, even just spitball about things, it was invaluable.
So I think trying to get out ahead of it, we also brought on a knowledge transfer specialist and she's able to do things like sit down with folks who are retiring and have a specific knowledge set and do things like build trainings, you know, develop policies and procedures, standard operating procedures with those folks before they head off to the next phase of their life.
(19:41):
So we're trying to be strategic and get out ahead of it knowing that this is going to be something we're dealing with for years to come.
How do you balance, okay, this is the way things have been done and then leaving also opportunity for new things to get done, kind of speaking to what you had said earlier, there've been people who've been in their jobs for so long and just, oh, this is the way we do things and yet here's your opportunity to bring in fresh people and fresh ideas.
(20:11):
So how do you balance that?
So I really love that question because we're going through it right now where my boss is very ambitious, very smart and just really wants to have us perform at the highest level for the residents of Pierce County.
But I think there is sort of that balance of driving and pushing in that way, but also people struggling sometimes to not feel fatigued by being in constant flux and change.
(20:48):
And also there's a real benefit, Julie, in being able to just hone your skills in like your day-to-day work and just get better at like your standard baseline work as well.
And just giving people kind of a chance to recharge because you can't be in transition and change mode 100% of the time.
(21:09):
And so I think we're trying to find that sweet spot where there's process improvement, there's continuous improvement, but that we're giving people a chance to catch their breath, to be able to get better at their day-to-day job and to be able to celebrate the wins as well instead of solely just driving to improve.
(21:35):
So it's a balancing act.
It's actually really tough to do
because there's always,
particularly from the 30,000 foot level
that the director team or the supervisors
may be operating from,
you always see things you can make better,
but it's a fine line
and we want people to feel energized
(21:55):
when they come to work
instead of going,
oh man, I know this is gonna be different
and I'm really just exhausted
that we've been doing this change process
for the last year.
So yeah, I would say in terms of my learning curve, it's something I'll probably be working on my whole career to find what that balance looks like.
(22:16):
And it varies with organizations, with the time, with sort of what's going on in culture and in society as to how people are able to manage change at work.
That is such a good point about curiosity and learning can be energizing and it can also be exhausting because sometimes people just wanna be, and I wanna do the thing I'm good at and I wanna do it.
(22:45):
So how do you, with this silver tsunami and with all of this and that smart planning of there're gonna be a lot of new people, how do you, when you're interviewing, how do you look for curiosity?
And maybe this is not, there's you directly and then also how do you train your people and your team to look for that too?
(23:07):
What's your favorite interview question or method to do that?
I mean, I think one of the most important things and this is kind of tried and true, but I've just found it to be important is I really look at the questions that people ask the panel or the individual when they have an opportunity at the end of interviews.
(23:29):
It's actually not always a problem if they don't have a question.
I think it should be authentic and coming from a genuine place, but I really look at the quality of the questions.
And also I really love when people ask things like, what is the environment like with your elected officials?
(23:51):
Or what is the composition of the team?
Are there a lot of more tenured or senior people?
Are they younger?
What's the morale like?
So sort of asking those sort of like environmental, cultural, relational questions is something I really look for.
In terms of questions I like to ask, I really like to ask questions about how people think about strategy and policy and then also how people are able to like encapsulate approach.
(24:23):
How do I approach supervising?
How do I approach complex problems?
How do I approach if an elected official wants to do one thing, but it's, you know, flies in the face of a state directive?
So I really, I like to ask questions like that, where you're sort of having to put on your problem solving hat that you may need to tap into unusual resources or seek counsel and sort of seeing how somebody's mind works.
(24:54):
I really like to do that.
And that helps me understand, I think how collaborative and open somebody is by the way they craft their answers.
Yeah.
And I can imagine that or they're going to be doing this, what you described those scenarios for the first time.
And so it's just, what would you do in that thought process?
(25:16):
So last question is, what is a resource that you turn to for inspiration for curiosity?
And this could be in your personal life, your professional life.
I think the thing that helps me practice curiosity at work is to be able to tap into my creative side.
So I think for me coming from actually an architecture background, that's kind of how I started my career before I moved over to urban planning and government leadership is architecture, interior design.
(25:49):
So something that I do every morning is actually look at either architectural digest or dwell and just look at how people choose to decorate their homes or what kind of art they have hanging.
How do the rooms compliment?
It's actually interesting because it gives you an ability to appreciate choices somebody makes that might not be your own and to see just the dynamism and good differences that exist between people.
(26:28):
And also, I appreciate beauty.
So it's really kind of inspires me a little bit and makes me feel really good before I start my day.
I don't doom scroll.
I love that answer, Lauren, because we can all do that.
(26:51):
Just being even observing, oh, what you said about how do people put things together that would be really different from the way I would put things together.
And also speaks to, I think sometimes people think, oh, if I studied this, then I have to do this for the rest of my life.
And the fact that you're not an active architect anymore, yet it still influences you.
I think for me, even though I'm not an active historian anymore, it always influences how I approach my work.
(27:15):
So Lauren, if people want to get in touch with you, learn more about what you do, what Pierce County does, how can they get in touch with you?
Sure.
So if you want to talk to me about Pierce County things, you can always send me an email.
That's a great way to reach out to me.
It's Lauren, period, Flemister.
And I can spell that L-A-U-R-E-N, period, F-L-E-M-I-S-T-E-R at PierceCountyWA.gov. You can always find me on LinkedIn.
(27:45):
And yeah, I'm always happy to engage, talk.
I frequently get pinged by university students, both ones I've interacted with and ones from around the country, just to talk about urban planning, government leadership.
So I'm always happy to have that conversation.
I will make the time.
Lauren, thank you so much for all of your insights and practical tips today.
(28:07):
Thank you, listeners, and wishing you all the ability to practice curiosity at work.
Thank you.
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