November 4, 2024 • 25 mins
In this episode of Curiosity at Work, host Dr. Julie Pham chats with Britt Provost, a seasoned people and talent executive with over 20 years of experience in global tech. Currently serving as the Chief Human Resources Officer (CHRO) at Siteimprove, Britt is committed to creating progressive career experiences through the efforts of her HR team. Having previously held executive roles at Accolade, Promethean, and Apptio, Britt shares her insights on how curiosity plays a vital role in talent development and leadership within fast-paced tech environments.
Throughout the episode, Britt discusses the unique challenges that come with leading a global team across multiple locations. She highlights how fostering curiosity in the workplace can drive innovation, particularly in the tech industry, where risk-taking and adaptability are crucial for success. Britt also explains the importance of having ready structures for people to use to start engaging effectively..
Listeners will gain valuable insights into how curiosity helps shape Britt’s leadership philosophy, both in her current role at Siteimprove and throughout her extensive career. Britt’s dedication to people development and her strategic approach to HR underscore the importance of creating cultures that encourage continuous learning and open dialogue, especially in dynamic industries like tech.
Connect with Dr. Julie Pham:
- LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliepham2/
- Website:https://curiositybased.com/
- Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/juliephamphd/
Connect with Britt Provost:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hi, I'm Dr. Julie Pham.
(00:24):
This is the Curiosity at Work podcast, where we talk to people leaders about how they help practice curiosity in their workplace.
Today, I get to talk to Britt Provost, who I've known for about 10 years now.
Super excited for this conversation.
Britt is the chief HR officer at Siteimprove, and also a fellow historian, actually an art historian, and so from history to tech, lots of really interesting background.
(00:53):
Britt, can you just share a bit more about your role, about Siteimprove?
For sure.
So Siteimprove is about a 20-year-old company, it was founded in Copenhagen, Denmark, which is amazing because it gives us a global footprint.
So we have big offices, kind of hubs, in Denmark, London in the UK, in Minneapolis, and here in Seattle in the Bellevue area.
(01:16):
We're about 450 people, we bounce around at that number a little bit, kind of as we think about different organizations and where we're focused.
And we are an organization that started as an accessibility organization, so focused on how to make websites more accessible, Siteimprove, but also now thinking about how we can have more impact in the overall marketing space with the platform that we have.
(01:43):
And so with that many people, is it mostly hybrid then, or do you actually ask people, do people come into the office at those different sites?
We are kind of having back-to-school this fall, so we are asking people to be in the office at least three days a week.
Obviously, we're trying to be practical and thoughtful about what does that mean for people, you know, flexible about what times.
(02:04):
So people working with their people leader, that just is a really important part of how we're thinking about managing that.
So you're actually the first leader at a tech company that we've interviewed.
I think people who are outside of tech think, oh, is that just a bunch of engineers?
Yet there are so many different functions in tech.
Could you tell us just how many engineers are there?
How many, what are the other roles that are in your company?
(02:27):
Yeah, for sure.
We have a significant portion of folks that are focused on engineering and helping our product stay nimble, creating new features, you know, working through things that will be really helpful for our customers.
But it also means we have a really big group of people that are focused on what we call customer success.
So they're focused on having those interactions with customers, working through renewals, working through things like from an operational perspective when things don't go right.
(02:50):
And also you have all the typical sort of back office functions that you think about finance, HR, you know, I'm forgetting some things, sales operations.
Obviously we've got sellers that are out there selling our product into the world.
But, you know, there's a big part of our organization that's really focused on how we think about marketing because we are selling a marketing product.
We try to be like our ideal customer profile with the marketing and be progressive and for example, we just launched a new website.
(03:19):
So very cool to kind of be in front and doing great things in the marketplace.
And Brett, this is not your first tech company.
It is not my first tech company.
How many?
You know, like I made my first official foray into tech when I went to Avanade.
I was there for almost seven years and have had some amazing adventures with companies like Aptio and Promethean and Accolade, which is more healthcare, but has a really kind of strong tech underpinning and now Siteimprove.
(03:50):
Because you have seen, you've been with companies from when they were smallish to much bigger.
I mean, you've been with companies that as they grow, I always think of you as someone who kind of comes in and helps grow them.
Yeah, so I have this kind of sweet spot of company and it tends to be around this 500 person company, thinking about going public, thinking about doing something else in terms of kind of how to get there big and grow.
(04:16):
And then probably other things in terms of how do you think about mergers and acquisitions and how bringing other companies into the space makes your company better.
So thinking about how, again, to put talent and product and other things together to make it a bigger and better company.
Oftentimes people say curiosity is so important.
We need to have curiosity.
I think it's also really important to admit when we don't practice curiosity.
(04:41):
So can you talk about, can you share a story of what prevents curiosity, especially that you've seen in tech?
Yeah, for sure.
Well, I think there's some bravery that goes into being curious.
Sometimes it's easier to sort of check the box, so to speak, rather than to ask the provocative questions.
Sometimes we don't quite know how to ask for more.
(05:02):
I see this a ton in terms of interviewing and how you get to know people.
You know, it's really easy to go off the checklist and kind of see how that goes.
But I do think it's hard for people because they don't know where to start.
And one of the things we learned this last year is we launched what we call our culture compass.
So it was really this, hey, here's what we do for you as the employer.
(05:23):
Here's what we expect for you to do in our community.
Here's kind of our community guidelines.
And also here are the capabilities that we think are really, really important for you to have, to grow, to focus on, to be successful in our organization.
We call this kind of the Pathfinder persona, which I have really enjoyed.
Because, you know, when you think about marketing, you're always selling to personas.
But when you think about a company, it has sort of a persona about what makes people really super successful.
(05:48):
We put something in there called agency.
We want people to have high agency.
And it's really confusing for people because agency has a couple components.
It's about, you know, taking risks, asking questions.
But at the core of it, having agency in terms of being accountable and ownership and other things always starts with curiosity.
Because curiosity is kind of the flywheel to make sure that people are thinking about how to make things better.
(06:12):
And again, it starts with those provocative questions.
So I think curiosity has a little bit of risk in it for people because they're asking things.
They're not doing it the same way over and over.
And in tech, if you do it the same way over and over, you don't actually grow.
So it's really important to bring people into this environment that are not always thinking about the way it's always been, but to challenge that.
(06:34):
And that's honestly why we started with this idea of a culture compass, is because there is no map to what we're asking people to do.
We're asking people to use judgment, be brave, be resilient, go do those things.
And curiosity fits into all of that.
In terms of this agency, you said that some people, it can be hard for them to grasp that.
(06:55):
Does that have anything to do with generational differences?
Because when I think about tech, there's a lot of young people and maybe people who are also earlier in their career.
Does that have anything to do with it?
Yeah.
Well, I think for sure you see generational differences in terms of people's willingness to kind of dive in.
(07:17):
But I think it goes back to that risk thing.
Organizations are scary.
You've got to talk to people about what happens when this doesn't work?
What happens when we try this thing and it fails?
And so I also think it goes back to that failure piece and that risk piece.
And also, depending on where you are generationally or where you are in your experience, your tolerance for risk may be really, really different.
(07:40):
It may not be so comfortable to be early in career and having a conversation with somebody that's more senior and saying, hey, that's not very smart.
Can we try it a different way?
And so again, I think this idea of risk and bravery is a really important component of how you support people in an organization to be curious.
(08:00):
Do you find that there's a difference when, depending on the stage in the company?
So for example, when you're really early, it's just we don't have as much to lose versus when you're at that stage, we're about to go public and we got to look really good right now versus when you're already public.
Yeah, look, I think the stage of company is really, really important.
(08:20):
I think how companies are funded.
So what's their board structure?
There's going to be a different tolerance for that depending on, hey, are you a venture capital funded company?
Are you a private equity company?
There's just different ways that people think in those two kind of spheres about how to spend money, how to take risk, how to do wild things and go on wild adventures.
(08:43):
And so private equity companies may be a little bit more conservative because they're looking for an outcome.
Venture capital companies may be a little bit more broad in terms of their support to try new things.
I think it depends because every board is a little bit different based on who's sitting there and based on who's funding the company.
And then, of course, like you said, if you're a public company, you're out there, you have shareholders, you have a completely different responsibility.
(09:09):
And if you're a private company, again, it goes back to that same kind of situation with venture capital or PE.
It really depends on who's leading you.
So organizations have a lot of tone that gets set based on who they've got, who they're accountable to at the board.
And so, listeners, just to pay attention, when we say tech industry, that actually, that means a lot of, there's a lot of difference within that because you don't get that, say, other company or with the stages, that's very particular, I think, in the tech industry where we think about those different stages.
(09:43):
A lot of smaller business, well, we get a little bigger, we get bigger.
But I feel like in tech, the difference is quite distinct and also who you're being funded by and how that impacts risk.
What about, so going back to, well, then how do you practice curiosity?
So you've rolled out this new compass, this culture compass.
What are ways that you actually encourage people to practice curiosity, especially if you're, especially if it's about taking risk?
(10:12):
Yeah.
So we've spent a lot of time and focus this last year really on people leader skills.
So think about it.
Like, HR can't do it all, leadership can't do it all.
The one place where that really matters with the work you do is the person that is your boss.
So your gatekeeper, whatever you want to call it, your people leader, your manager, all those things.
(10:33):
And so we've spent a lot of time and focus this year talking to our people leaders about how to look at some of these capabilities.
Curiosity is still new for us.
So we've been talking about agency.
But we're also working through things like situational leadership that helps people get a bigger structure and a better structure for how they can do coaching, how they can set goals, and how overarching over all of this.
(10:56):
It's about like having that agency, having that capability that we're really excited for people to have in our organization.
Try new things.
Do it without a map.
So, Brett, could you share a story?
Share a story about maybe one of those managers who you're trying to get them to embrace this and teach it to their team?
You know, I think it's really hard.
(11:18):
I think, you know, you've told me that in previous sessions in this podcast, people always talk about the one barrier to curiosity being time.
And I don't want to go back because I think you've got really good examples for that.
But I do think that that is something that we've got to think about with people leaders in terms of I don't think about it as time.
I think about it as space.
(11:38):
And so, you know, for us, the stories that I always tell are people shock when you give them structures in which they can have conversations.
So like one of our big aha moments overall is because people are stressed out, because they don't have time, because they don't have space, because they're worried about risk.
One of the things we're going to lean into more, especially in terms of encouraging risk and curiosity and talking about all these capabilities is conversation guides.
(12:05):
We think that if we can hack it a little bit for the managers to give some ideas about where to get started so they don't have to come up with it from scratch, then we can really like accelerate the conversations, the curiosity, the innovation.
You know, curiosity leads directly to innovation.
And all of this is about creating the space for people to do that.
(12:26):
And sometimes doing that gives you got to give them a head start on what questions to ask.
What's your cadence?
What are the expectations?
It's just really, really hard to put it all together.
And so it starts with conversations.
And that's where we're really leaning into is these guides that we're going to have help us with other things.
(12:47):
The story, honestly, is that we started to think about this with our hiring and having some guides for people to go out and have conversations with people.
But it's really hard to come up with those questions.
And so we've had to come back to it a bunch of different times, because you're always iterating.
You're always learning new things.
(13:07):
And you're always figuring out different ways to help people along on the journey.
So as we get closer with these conversation guides, I'll come back and share them with you, because I think they will really tie into what we've just been talking about in terms of talking about the capabilities and talking about how people show them in action.
(13:27):
I can see how that would be really helpful, especially for engineers.
Here are some structures, because there can actually be conversation structures.
I know for a curiosity base, we developed a structure for how to approach a conversation with curiosity with some forms of respect called CAFA, C-A-F-A.
And now we use it actually for all of these other difficult conversations, because actually that context, action, what did that person do, feeling, how did I feel about it, and ask, how do I ask questions to understand their intention?
(13:54):
That actually applies to not just respect, but all of these different things.
Each organization has to have a structure that works with them.
So the culture compass made sense for us.
There was stuff that senior leaders put in there.
There was stuff that we had conversations with people about.
And culture meets everybody in the middle.
There's no top-down culture.
There's no culture just exists in an organization.
(14:17):
So you've got to figure out how to bring people together and have those conversations.
And like you're talking about, structure matters to people because they're busy doing their job.
And if we can help people be better people leaders with some structure, it makes everybody's life easier.
It also makes me think about, I know a big role in tech companies, project manager, technical project manager.
(14:38):
And oftentimes, the tool is a tech tool.
And yet, really, to do that work, you have to be able to have conversations.
There is no way a project just manages itself.
But go into the tool and click here, and it'll send you reminders.
And I always just have to remind people, a project manager, you do actually have to learn how to nudge people and to ask those questions.
(15:00):
And it sounds like you have that training in place to help those people.
The training's in place.
I think the next part of this is the conversation guides and being really thoughtful.
We already have this.
We're already guiding people.
We're just documenting it.
But Julia, to your point, I think HR people have done a lot of damage, whether it be for equity and other things in terms of the way we've done performance management.
(15:23):
I also think we go too quickly to a tool to do something rather than focus on the real thing that we actually want people to do, which is have a conversation.
And so I think we're going to go super low tech when we get this actually in place.
We already are super low tech because basically we just want people to document the conversation.
All that work that we create in HR to be cute can sometimes just, it adds to the overwhelm, the lack of space, the other things, to get to the place where you don't really have time or space to be curious because you're too worried about checking the performance or the process box.
(16:03):
Britt, thank you for acknowledging that, because it goes back to what you're saying about risk, because if you have actually too much structure, too many checkboxes, then people could actually worry, oh, am I doing this right?
Do I take that risk?
And I guess, I don't know if it's specifically a curiosity thing, but one of my beliefs is, at least in my job, I get paid to be fascinated about HR.
(16:27):
But everybody else is doing a job.
If the instructions or the things I'm working on or the other things that I need you to do are taking more than five to 10 minutes to figure out what you've got to go do, I'm doing it wrong.
That also just reminds me of just the tech approach to things.
We've got to constantly iterate.
The fact that you're saying, hey, this might not be perfect, and you're thinking about that customer, and the customer here is the employee.
(16:56):
How do they make sure that they understand that?
Absolutely.
And sometimes we get it horribly wrong, and then we fix it.
Yes, also another, I think, tech industry philosophy.
So Britt, with so many different offices, different cultures, how do you interview?
(17:17):
What's your favorite way to interview for curiosity?
And especially from your perspective, because you're actually training all of these different levels within the company to interview for that as well.
Well, there are a couple of things that I think are just sort of baseline.
I think that there are a bunch of great techniques and questions and situational questioning and all those things.
(17:39):
I start out every interview that I ever have done and ever will do asking for people to tell me their story about them.
And part of this is it allows me a moment to get curious about them and who they are.
You see all kinds of different responses to this.
You see some people telling you the life story, or you see some people just going really short and sweet.
(18:01):
So I have started augmenting the tell me your story, but also tell me why you're interested in our company.
And opening a conversation from a recruiting perspective with that, again, allows me to be curious, but I'm really interested in seeing what people's thought process is.
And again, as it ties to those capabilities and those competencies, I want to see what research they did about the company.
(18:25):
I want to know why they're interested.
Why is this a really good moment in their career to come here?
And it runs the gamut in terms of why people say that, what they say when they respond to my question.
But it gives me a really good sense about where people are.
And then it allows the rest of the recruiting, the interview, the process to be very conversational.
(18:48):
The other thing that I think is really important when people are interviewing, and my strong advice and training to people is, yeah, do a nice opener, but also give the interviewer or the interviewee, not the interviewer, more time to ask questions.
I think what happens is when people come into an organization, they do an interview, but it's basically the person in the company talking at them.
(19:09):
And there's less time to have, again, have that curiosity to understand who that human is and have the interaction.
So we got to do it in a different way and open it up again to be a conversation.
I think as I look at the employee journey in general, I just think that there are just these key moments of conversation that if they happen, then you get to that place where you're really helping somebody have impact, have growth, feel like they've got good connection within an organization.
(19:41):
Do you have a favorite story or something that surprised you when someone answered that question of why do you want to work here?
And maybe not just from second group anyway.
Yeah, no, no.
I mean, look, I'd say just in general, like if I had a couple of themes, I just think sometimes people just aren't prepared to have a conversation about who they are, what they sort of believe.
And, you know, it kind of goes back, you know, maybe not as much curiosity as it is, hey, what's your purpose?
(20:03):
Like what drives you in the workplace?
And then you just sort of get in these moments sometimes when you open up with that question.
And then you have this deep, impactful moment where people are like, I've never thought about that.
I'm not sure what I think.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Let me tell you my story.
And so I have had a lot of really good light bulb moments with people where I've watched them sort of go, oh, let me tell you why I'm doing this.
(20:30):
And it's, I think it's, again, it's all about how you come into a conversation and make it a conversation versus making it an interview.
And I'm also shocked a bunch of times where people don't really have an answer why they'd want to come to us.
It's actually quite vulnerable to admit that they don't know right away and to actually let that sit.
And then for them to tell you.
(20:51):
A hundred percent.
Well, look, you know that we don't teach anybody how to go look for a job.
And so like, you know, in our university programs and all these other things, we don't talk to people about what these expectations are.
We really don't train people either how to interview or how to be interviewed.
And so we're all kind of walking in the dark with some of this.
(21:11):
We know what some of the best practices are.
But then I also think then we make it super complicated.
And again, I work in tech.
So there's a part of this where you actually have to do a skills match and understand that that person can do the programming in the language you need them to do.
They've got previous experience.
They've got the background, all those things.
That's an important part of it.
(21:31):
But this, you know, who's in your organization?
Do they understand what's expected in that community?
We don't teach how to do that.
And isn't it by the time they get to the interview, you already know that they can have that tech competency and it's more of just a...
You usually nowadays you have more tools where you can do a screen.
There's still a lot of, and this again is a curiosity thing.
(21:53):
There are a lot of situations sometimes where you do a, hey, solve a problem or walk me through it or give me a presentation.
You know, I think both can kind of work.
So usually by the time you get to the first sort of interviews, you know, somebody can do the job.
You're just debating whether or not it's, you know, good for them, good for you.
(22:14):
And they bring something to the community that you have.
Okay, Britt, last question.
Okay.
Question is, what are you...
What's inspiring curiosity for you?
I probably started a journey about being a photographer or wanting to be a photographer.
I call myself a photographer.
I'm not sure if I qualify.
But one of the things that I...
(22:36):
So my undergrad, you talked about it, is in art history.
And art history is really, really important because it does a lot in terms of the positioning in whether it's the painting or whatever else.
And so I've taken a lot of that away.
And I think it actually helps me in my kind of journey as a photographer.
But I've also realized that some of my best pictures are from different angles.
(22:57):
And so looking up, looking to the side, looking down.
I have a whole series of pictures about random stickers and street signs and all these other things that I think are really interesting.
And that's my version of curiosity.
If you're open and you watch what comes in front of you, particularly if you see it through a lens, I think it allows you to see the world in a different way.
(23:22):
And it's also kind of going back to that time and space thing.
You have to make time and space to see things.
Britt, I love following your Instagram because you have these photos.
And I'm always curious.
I'm just, oh, where was she?
Oh, that's.
And you've got, you are taking these things I would not notice.
I feel like I get to be on a journey with you just by following all the photographs that you, and also around the world too.
(23:48):
Yeah, like I take pictures of my travels and my adventures.
The other thing I think is really funny, and Julie, I'll just say it to you.
I take them as they come.
So I see things and I think they're really, really interesting.
I'm not trying to send any deep messages to the universe.
I just find things and it just kind of speaks to you.
And so, you know, whatever your craft is that keeps you interested and engaged, it's just, you know, the universe is interesting.
(24:13):
Look for it.
Yeah, that reminds me of when I first started my business and I just gave myself permission to write about whatever I want to write about.
It didn't have to be these brand pillars.
It was just write.
And it was amazing what came out.
And Britt, I do think that you are a photographer.
Thank you.
You take photos.
They're beautiful photos.
You're a photographer.
Thank you.
So Britt, how can people get in touch with you?
(24:35):
LinkedIn is a great place.
I'm pretty responsive there.
Obviously, if you want to see my photos, I'm Britt underscore Provost on Instagram.
And lots of kind of opportunity to do different things in Seattle.
Julie, I know just, you know, it's really exciting to see people starting to come back and get around.
So hopefully maybe it's some curiosity events or some other things we can run into each other.
(24:58):
Britt, thank you so much for your time, for your insight, for your wisdom.
And listeners, continue to practice curiosity at work.
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hi, I'm Dr. Julie Pham.
(00:24):
This is the Curiosity at Work podcast, where we talk to people leaders about how they help practice curiosity in their workplace.
Today, I get to talk to Britt Provost, who I've known for about 10 years now.
Super excited for this conversation.
Britt is the chief HR officer at Siteimprove, and also a fellow historian, actually an art historian, and so from history to tech, lots of really interesting background.
(00:53):
Britt, can you just share a bit more about your role, about Siteimprove?
For sure.
So Siteimprove is about a 20-year-old company, it was founded in Copenhagen, Denmark, which is amazing because it gives us a global footprint.
So we have big offices, kind of hubs, in Denmark, London in the UK, in Minneapolis, and here in Seattle in the Bellevue area.
(01:16):
We're about 450 people, we bounce around at that number a little bit, kind of as we think about different organizations and where we're focused.
And we are an organization that started as an accessibility organization, so focused on how to make websites more accessible, Siteimprove, but also now thinking about how we can have more impact in the overall marketing space with the platform that we have.
(01:43):
And so with that many people, is it mostly hybrid then, or do you actually ask people, do people come into the office at those different sites?
We are kind of having back-to-school this fall, so we are asking people to be in the office at least three days a week.
Obviously, we're trying to be practical and thoughtful about what does that mean for people, you know, flexible about what times.
(02:04):
So people working with their people leader, that just is a really important part of how we're thinking about managing that.
So you're actually the first leader at a tech company that we've interviewed.
I think people who are outside of tech think, oh, is that just a bunch of engineers?
Yet there are so many different functions in tech.
Could you tell us just how many engineers are there?
How many, what are the other roles that are in your company?
(02:27):
Yeah, for sure.
We have a significant portion of folks that are focused on engineering and helping our product stay nimble, creating new features, you know, working through things that will be really helpful for our customers.
But it also means we have a really big group of people that are focused on what we call customer success.
So they're focused on having those interactions with customers, working through renewals, working through things like from an operational perspective when things don't go right.
(02:50):
And also you have all the typical sort of back office functions that you think about finance, HR, you know, I'm forgetting some things, sales operations.
Obviously we've got sellers that are out there selling our product into the world.
But, you know, there's a big part of our organization that's really focused on how we think about marketing because we are selling a marketing product.
We try to be like our ideal customer profile with the marketing and be progressive and for example, we just launched a new website.
(03:19):
So very cool to kind of be in front and doing great things in the marketplace.
And Brett, this is not your first tech company.
It is not my first tech company.
How many?
You know, like I made my first official foray into tech when I went to Avanade.
I was there for almost seven years and have had some amazing adventures with companies like Aptio and Promethean and Accolade, which is more healthcare, but has a really kind of strong tech underpinning and now Siteimprove.
(03:50):
Because you have seen, you've been with companies from when they were smallish to much bigger.
I mean, you've been with companies that as they grow, I always think of you as someone who kind of comes in and helps grow them.
Yeah, so I have this kind of sweet spot of company and it tends to be around this 500 person company, thinking about going public, thinking about doing something else in terms of kind of how to get there big and grow.
(04:16):
And then probably other things in terms of how do you think about mergers and acquisitions and how bringing other companies into the space makes your company better.
So thinking about how, again, to put talent and product and other things together to make it a bigger and better company.
Oftentimes people say curiosity is so important.
We need to have curiosity.
I think it's also really important to admit when we don't practice curiosity.
(04:41):
So can you talk about, can you share a story of what prevents curiosity, especially that you've seen in tech?
Yeah, for sure.
Well, I think there's some bravery that goes into being curious.
Sometimes it's easier to sort of check the box, so to speak, rather than to ask the provocative questions.
Sometimes we don't quite know how to ask for more.
(05:02):
I see this a ton in terms of interviewing and how you get to know people.
You know, it's really easy to go off the checklist and kind of see how that goes.
But I do think it's hard for people because they don't know where to start.
And one of the things we learned this last year is we launched what we call our culture compass.
So it was really this, hey, here's what we do for you as the employer.
(05:23):
Here's what we expect for you to do in our community.
Here's kind of our community guidelines.
And also here are the capabilities that we think are really, really important for you to have, to grow, to focus on, to be successful in our organization.
We call this kind of the Pathfinder persona, which I have really enjoyed.
Because, you know, when you think about marketing, you're always selling to personas.
But when you think about a company, it has sort of a persona about what makes people really super successful.
(05:48):
We put something in there called agency.
We want people to have high agency.
And it's really confusing for people because agency has a couple components.
It's about, you know, taking risks, asking questions.
But at the core of it, having agency in terms of being accountable and ownership and other things always starts with curiosity.
Because curiosity is kind of the flywheel to make sure that people are thinking about how to make things better.
(06:12):
And again, it starts with those provocative questions.
So I think curiosity has a little bit of risk in it for people because they're asking things.
They're not doing it the same way over and over.
And in tech, if you do it the same way over and over, you don't actually grow.
So it's really important to bring people into this environment that are not always thinking about the way it's always been, but to challenge that.
(06:34):
And that's honestly why we started with this idea of a culture compass, is because there is no map to what we're asking people to do.
We're asking people to use judgment, be brave, be resilient, go do those things.
And curiosity fits into all of that.
In terms of this agency, you said that some people, it can be hard for them to grasp that.
(06:55):
Does that have anything to do with generational differences?
Because when I think about tech, there's a lot of young people and maybe people who are also earlier in their career.
Does that have anything to do with it?
Yeah.
Well, I think for sure you see generational differences in terms of people's willingness to kind of dive in.
(07:17):
But I think it goes back to that risk thing.
Organizations are scary.
You've got to talk to people about what happens when this doesn't work?
What happens when we try this thing and it fails?
And so I also think it goes back to that failure piece and that risk piece.
And also, depending on where you are generationally or where you are in your experience, your tolerance for risk may be really, really different.
(07:40):
It may not be so comfortable to be early in career and having a conversation with somebody that's more senior and saying, hey, that's not very smart.
Can we try it a different way?
And so again, I think this idea of risk and bravery is a really important component of how you support people in an organization to be curious.
(08:00):
Do you find that there's a difference when, depending on the stage in the company?
So for example, when you're really early, it's just we don't have as much to lose versus when you're at that stage, we're about to go public and we got to look really good right now versus when you're already public.
Yeah, look, I think the stage of company is really, really important.
(08:20):
I think how companies are funded.
So what's their board structure?
There's going to be a different tolerance for that depending on, hey, are you a venture capital funded company?
Are you a private equity company?
There's just different ways that people think in those two kind of spheres about how to spend money, how to take risk, how to do wild things and go on wild adventures.
(08:43):
And so private equity companies may be a little bit more conservative because they're looking for an outcome.
Venture capital companies may be a little bit more broad in terms of their support to try new things.
I think it depends because every board is a little bit different based on who's sitting there and based on who's funding the company.
And then, of course, like you said, if you're a public company, you're out there, you have shareholders, you have a completely different responsibility.
(09:09):
And if you're a private company, again, it goes back to that same kind of situation with venture capital or PE.
It really depends on who's leading you.
So organizations have a lot of tone that gets set based on who they've got, who they're accountable to at the board.
And so, listeners, just to pay attention, when we say tech industry, that actually, that means a lot of, there's a lot of difference within that because you don't get that, say, other company or with the stages, that's very particular, I think, in the tech industry where we think about those different stages.
(09:43):
A lot of smaller business, well, we get a little bigger, we get bigger.
But I feel like in tech, the difference is quite distinct and also who you're being funded by and how that impacts risk.
What about, so going back to, well, then how do you practice curiosity?
So you've rolled out this new compass, this culture compass.
What are ways that you actually encourage people to practice curiosity, especially if you're, especially if it's about taking risk?
(10:12):
Yeah.
So we've spent a lot of time and focus this last year really on people leader skills.
So think about it.
Like, HR can't do it all, leadership can't do it all.
The one place where that really matters with the work you do is the person that is your boss.
So your gatekeeper, whatever you want to call it, your people leader, your manager, all those things.
(10:33):
And so we've spent a lot of time and focus this year talking to our people leaders about how to look at some of these capabilities.
Curiosity is still new for us.
So we've been talking about agency.
But we're also working through things like situational leadership that helps people get a bigger structure and a better structure for how they can do coaching, how they can set goals, and how overarching over all of this.
(10:56):
It's about like having that agency, having that capability that we're really excited for people to have in our organization.
Try new things.
Do it without a map.
So, Brett, could you share a story?
Share a story about maybe one of those managers who you're trying to get them to embrace this and teach it to their team?
You know, I think it's really hard.
(11:18):
I think, you know, you've told me that in previous sessions in this podcast, people always talk about the one barrier to curiosity being time.
And I don't want to go back because I think you've got really good examples for that.
But I do think that that is something that we've got to think about with people leaders in terms of I don't think about it as time.
I think about it as space.
(11:38):
And so, you know, for us, the stories that I always tell are people shock when you give them structures in which they can have conversations.
So like one of our big aha moments overall is because people are stressed out, because they don't have time, because they don't have space, because they're worried about risk.
One of the things we're going to lean into more, especially in terms of encouraging risk and curiosity and talking about all these capabilities is conversation guides.
(12:05):
We think that if we can hack it a little bit for the managers to give some ideas about where to get started so they don't have to come up with it from scratch, then we can really like accelerate the conversations, the curiosity, the innovation.
You know, curiosity leads directly to innovation.
And all of this is about creating the space for people to do that.
(12:26):
And sometimes doing that gives you got to give them a head start on what questions to ask.
What's your cadence?
What are the expectations?
It's just really, really hard to put it all together.
And so it starts with conversations.
And that's where we're really leaning into is these guides that we're going to have help us with other things.
(12:47):
The story, honestly, is that we started to think about this with our hiring and having some guides for people to go out and have conversations with people.
But it's really hard to come up with those questions.
And so we've had to come back to it a bunch of different times, because you're always iterating.
You're always learning new things.
(13:07):
And you're always figuring out different ways to help people along on the journey.
So as we get closer with these conversation guides, I'll come back and share them with you, because I think they will really tie into what we've just been talking about in terms of talking about the capabilities and talking about how people show them in action.
(13:27):
I can see how that would be really helpful, especially for engineers.
Here are some structures, because there can actually be conversation structures.
I know for a curiosity base, we developed a structure for how to approach a conversation with curiosity with some forms of respect called CAFA, C-A-F-A.
And now we use it actually for all of these other difficult conversations, because actually that context, action, what did that person do, feeling, how did I feel about it, and ask, how do I ask questions to understand their intention?
(13:54):
That actually applies to not just respect, but all of these different things.
Each organization has to have a structure that works with them.
So the culture compass made sense for us.
There was stuff that senior leaders put in there.
There was stuff that we had conversations with people about.
And culture meets everybody in the middle.
There's no top-down culture.
There's no culture just exists in an organization.
(14:17):
So you've got to figure out how to bring people together and have those conversations.
And like you're talking about, structure matters to people because they're busy doing their job.
And if we can help people be better people leaders with some structure, it makes everybody's life easier.
It also makes me think about, I know a big role in tech companies, project manager, technical project manager.
(14:38):
And oftentimes, the tool is a tech tool.
And yet, really, to do that work, you have to be able to have conversations.
There is no way a project just manages itself.
But go into the tool and click here, and it'll send you reminders.
And I always just have to remind people, a project manager, you do actually have to learn how to nudge people and to ask those questions.
(15:00):
And it sounds like you have that training in place to help those people.
The training's in place.
I think the next part of this is the conversation guides and being really thoughtful.
We already have this.
We're already guiding people.
We're just documenting it.
But Julia, to your point, I think HR people have done a lot of damage, whether it be for equity and other things in terms of the way we've done performance management.
(15:23):
I also think we go too quickly to a tool to do something rather than focus on the real thing that we actually want people to do, which is have a conversation.
And so I think we're going to go super low tech when we get this actually in place.
We already are super low tech because basically we just want people to document the conversation.
All that work that we create in HR to be cute can sometimes just, it adds to the overwhelm, the lack of space, the other things, to get to the place where you don't really have time or space to be curious because you're too worried about checking the performance or the process box.
(16:03):
Britt, thank you for acknowledging that, because it goes back to what you're saying about risk, because if you have actually too much structure, too many checkboxes, then people could actually worry, oh, am I doing this right?
Do I take that risk?
And I guess, I don't know if it's specifically a curiosity thing, but one of my beliefs is, at least in my job, I get paid to be fascinated about HR.
(16:27):
But everybody else is doing a job.
If the instructions or the things I'm working on or the other things that I need you to do are taking more than five to 10 minutes to figure out what you've got to go do, I'm doing it wrong.
That also just reminds me of just the tech approach to things.
We've got to constantly iterate.
The fact that you're saying, hey, this might not be perfect, and you're thinking about that customer, and the customer here is the employee.
(16:56):
How do they make sure that they understand that?
Absolutely.
And sometimes we get it horribly wrong, and then we fix it.
Yes, also another, I think, tech industry philosophy.
So Britt, with so many different offices, different cultures, how do you interview?
(17:17):
What's your favorite way to interview for curiosity?
And especially from your perspective, because you're actually training all of these different levels within the company to interview for that as well.
Well, there are a couple of things that I think are just sort of baseline.
I think that there are a bunch of great techniques and questions and situational questioning and all those things.
(17:39):
I start out every interview that I ever have done and ever will do asking for people to tell me their story about them.
And part of this is it allows me a moment to get curious about them and who they are.
You see all kinds of different responses to this.
You see some people telling you the life story, or you see some people just going really short and sweet.
(18:01):
So I have started augmenting the tell me your story, but also tell me why you're interested in our company.
And opening a conversation from a recruiting perspective with that, again, allows me to be curious, but I'm really interested in seeing what people's thought process is.
And again, as it ties to those capabilities and those competencies, I want to see what research they did about the company.
(18:25):
I want to know why they're interested.
Why is this a really good moment in their career to come here?
And it runs the gamut in terms of why people say that, what they say when they respond to my question.
But it gives me a really good sense about where people are.
And then it allows the rest of the recruiting, the interview, the process to be very conversational.
(18:48):
The other thing that I think is really important when people are interviewing, and my strong advice and training to people is, yeah, do a nice opener, but also give the interviewer or the interviewee, not the interviewer, more time to ask questions.
I think what happens is when people come into an organization, they do an interview, but it's basically the person in the company talking at them.
(19:09):
And there's less time to have, again, have that curiosity to understand who that human is and have the interaction.
So we got to do it in a different way and open it up again to be a conversation.
I think as I look at the employee journey in general, I just think that there are just these key moments of conversation that if they happen, then you get to that place where you're really helping somebody have impact, have growth, feel like they've got good connection within an organization.
(19:41):
Do you have a favorite story or something that surprised you when someone answered that question of why do you want to work here?
And maybe not just from second group anyway.
Yeah, no, no.
I mean, look, I'd say just in general, like if I had a couple of themes, I just think sometimes people just aren't prepared to have a conversation about who they are, what they sort of believe.
And, you know, it kind of goes back, you know, maybe not as much curiosity as it is, hey, what's your purpose?
(20:03):
Like what drives you in the workplace?
And then you just sort of get in these moments sometimes when you open up with that question.
And then you have this deep, impactful moment where people are like, I've never thought about that.
I'm not sure what I think.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Let me tell you my story.
And so I have had a lot of really good light bulb moments with people where I've watched them sort of go, oh, let me tell you why I'm doing this.
(20:30):
And it's, I think it's, again, it's all about how you come into a conversation and make it a conversation versus making it an interview.
And I'm also shocked a bunch of times where people don't really have an answer why they'd want to come to us.
It's actually quite vulnerable to admit that they don't know right away and to actually let that sit.
And then for them to tell you.
(20:51):
A hundred percent.
Well, look, you know that we don't teach anybody how to go look for a job.
And so like, you know, in our university programs and all these other things, we don't talk to people about what these expectations are.
We really don't train people either how to interview or how to be interviewed.
And so we're all kind of walking in the dark with some of this.
(21:11):
We know what some of the best practices are.
But then I also think then we make it super complicated.
And again, I work in tech.
So there's a part of this where you actually have to do a skills match and understand that that person can do the programming in the language you need them to do.
They've got previous experience.
They've got the background, all those things.
That's an important part of it.
(21:31):
But this, you know, who's in your organization?
Do they understand what's expected in that community?
We don't teach how to do that.
And isn't it by the time they get to the interview, you already know that they can have that tech competency and it's more of just a...
You usually nowadays you have more tools where you can do a screen.
There's still a lot of, and this again is a curiosity thing.
(21:53):
There are a lot of situations sometimes where you do a, hey, solve a problem or walk me through it or give me a presentation.
You know, I think both can kind of work.
So usually by the time you get to the first sort of interviews, you know, somebody can do the job.
You're just debating whether or not it's, you know, good for them, good for you.
(22:14):
And they bring something to the community that you have.
Okay, Britt, last question.
Okay.
Question is, what are you...
What's inspiring curiosity for you?
I probably started a journey about being a photographer or wanting to be a photographer.
I call myself a photographer.
I'm not sure if I qualify.
But one of the things that I...
(22:36):
So my undergrad, you talked about it, is in art history.
And art history is really, really important because it does a lot in terms of the positioning in whether it's the painting or whatever else.
And so I've taken a lot of that away.
And I think it actually helps me in my kind of journey as a photographer.
But I've also realized that some of my best pictures are from different angles.
(22:57):
And so looking up, looking to the side, looking down.
I have a whole series of pictures about random stickers and street signs and all these other things that I think are really interesting.
And that's my version of curiosity.
If you're open and you watch what comes in front of you, particularly if you see it through a lens, I think it allows you to see the world in a different way.
(23:22):
And it's also kind of going back to that time and space thing.
You have to make time and space to see things.
Britt, I love following your Instagram because you have these photos.
And I'm always curious.
I'm just, oh, where was she?
Oh, that's.
And you've got, you are taking these things I would not notice.
I feel like I get to be on a journey with you just by following all the photographs that you, and also around the world too.
(23:48):
Yeah, like I take pictures of my travels and my adventures.
The other thing I think is really funny, and Julie, I'll just say it to you.
I take them as they come.
So I see things and I think they're really, really interesting.
I'm not trying to send any deep messages to the universe.
I just find things and it just kind of speaks to you.
And so, you know, whatever your craft is that keeps you interested and engaged, it's just, you know, the universe is interesting.
(24:13):
Look for it.
Yeah, that reminds me of when I first started my business and I just gave myself permission to write about whatever I want to write about.
It didn't have to be these brand pillars.
It was just write.
And it was amazing what came out.
And Britt, I do think that you are a photographer.
Thank you.
You take photos.
They're beautiful photos.
You're a photographer.
Thank you.
So Britt, how can people get in touch with you?
(24:35):
LinkedIn is a great place.
I'm pretty responsive there.
Obviously, if you want to see my photos, I'm Britt underscore Provost on Instagram.
And lots of kind of opportunity to do different things in Seattle.
Julie, I know just, you know, it's really exciting to see people starting to come back and get around.
So hopefully maybe it's some curiosity events or some other things we can run into each other.
(24:58):
Britt, thank you so much for your time, for your insight, for your wisdom.
And listeners, continue to practice curiosity at work.
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