November 11, 2024 • 33 mins
Michael Greer, CEO of ArtsFund, joins Dr. Julie Pham on the Curiosity at Work podcast to explore how curiosity drives leadership in the arts sector. In his role at ArtsFund, Michael oversees grant-making, capacity building, and advocacy to support over 800 arts organizations across Washington State. He shares how curiosity helps him navigate the challenges of managing a hybrid team, balancing support for grassroots organizations with the needs of larger entities, and leading in uncertain times. Michael emphasizes the importance of fostering curiosity by creating environments where innovation is rewarded, and failure is a learning opportunity.
Drawing on his global experience in arts and business leadership, Michael discusses the critical role curiosity plays in addressing the fear and uncertainty faced by arts organizations today. He explains how ArtsFund promotes not only financial support but also leadership and collaboration across the sector. Michael encourages arts leaders to embrace new technologies and evolving entertainment formats as complementary rather than competitive, urging them to view these changes as entry points for engaging new audiences.
Through his unique leadership journey, including his early career as a professional ballet dancer and his global experiences in China and India, Michael shares practical strategies for cultivating curiosity in the workplace. His commitment to empowering his team to ask questions, try new approaches, and embrace risk serves as a blueprint for fostering innovation and resilience in the ever-evolving arts landscape.
Connect with Dr. Julie Pham:
- LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliepham2/
- Website:https://curiositybased.com/
- Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/juliephamphd/
Connect with Michael Greer:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelromygreer
- Website: https://www.artsfund.org/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is
where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hi, welcome to the Curiosity at Work podcast.
(00:27):
I'm Dr. Julie Pham, the CEO of Curiosity Based, and I'm an Asian woman with shoulder-length
straight black hair wearing a gray turtleneck.
Today I get to interview the CEO of Arts Fund, Michael Greer.
Michael and I met about five years ago when he first moved to Seattle, and he does incredible
work in helping spread and fund arts in our community.
(00:51):
Michael, could you just tell a little bit more about what Arts Fund is and what you
do in the community, and also what your organization, how many people there are, how you work?
Yeah, Julie, it's great to see you today.
I also like to just jump in with a quick visual description because I never know who's tuning
into these things, but my name is Michael Greer, as you mentioned.
(01:13):
I'm the president and CEO of Arts Fund.
I'm a light-skinned black male with no hair, wearing chunky black glasses, and wearing
a brown sweater today.
You asked about Arts Fund.
Our mission is to support the arts through leadership, advocacy, and grant-making in
order to build a more healthy, equitable, and creative Washington.
(01:34):
I say that because our lines of business are really within that mission.
When we're talking about leadership, advocacy, and grant-making, what we do is our work is
centered around capacity-building programs, public sector and private sector advocacy,
and then fundraising and granting and re-granting.
(01:56):
Those are the three lines of business, if you want to look at it that way.
We've got about 15 FTEs right now, but we're budgeted up to 18 for the year, so we'll be
doing a little bit of hiring over the course of fiscal 25.
We're a hybrid shop right now, and we can talk about this, but my personal opinion is,
(02:23):
for our team, do what you have to do in order to get the work done.
That's really what this is about.
We've got a great space down in Queen Anne, and it is available.
We've got people that are coming in and out of the space all the time, but we also have
grown, so we have people that are located in Bellingham and Issaquah and Tacoma and Kent.
(02:47):
I'm out on Bainbridge, so really, wherever people need to get the work done, they need
to get the work done, and everyone is an FTE.
We bring in some contractors throughout the course of the year, but we really rely primarily
on our full-time employees.
Michael, now, for the grant-making, you said that most of that is private funds, then?
(03:11):
Yes.
How much of that is of your work versus capacity building?
Well, it's an interesting mix, because I think those three lines of business really lever
on each other, and so we distribute ... Well, in fiscal 24, we distributed just about $12.5
million to about 811 organizations across 38 out of 39 counties in Washington State,
(03:40):
and on top of that, we also did a significant number of capacity-building programs, so things
like bringing in the nonprofit finance fund, speaking with individuals and organizations
about capacity-building for their own organizations and figuring out how to get audience engagement,
(04:04):
butts in seats, some topics that are really front of mind for the organizations that we
partner with.
And when I say that everything is kind of intertwined, that $12.5 million that we put
out in grants, while we spend a significant amount of our time and effort on that, we
know that that's not nearly enough to keep doors open 100% for the organizations that
(04:30):
we support.
When you're talking about 800, 900 organizations across the state, those are cumulative budgets
in the hundreds of millions of dollars, and so our dollars are there to support financially
organizations that are out there, but also to message to other stakeholders and other
decision-makers within the community that this is a sector that people care about.
(04:53):
If we can show that there are $12.5 million worth of private funds that people are willing
to distribute to arts and culture nonprofits in communities across the state, that's a
signal to public sector decision-makers, private sector decision-makers, that this is an important
sector to their constituents, whether they're voting constituents or employees or consumers.
(05:21):
So I really like how you give to so many different organizations, because I know it's a big vote
of confidence for those younger, for those newer grassroots organizations, those small
ones that might even just be volunteer-run.
They don't have those professional grant writers.
So I want to understand, of your 15 staff, how many actually do grant-making versus that
capacity-building?
Is that the main function?
(05:41):
Yeah, so our grant-making staff is actually quite small.
We will have three full-time employees, and then we also bring in one or two contractors,
depending on where we are in the season for grant-making.
But it's about three, and then in terms of our capacity-building, that spans the organization,
(06:06):
but our strategic initiatives and communications department, which is what really handles a lot
of the capacity-building programs and outreach, that department, it can also, with contractors,
that can range anywhere between four and five individuals.
So it really gets at how you are building the capacity of the arts field and trying to
(06:32):
promote people as well, promote those organizations as well.
Absolutely.
And you mentioned the size of the organizations.
A large number of the organizations that we support across the state have budgets under
$500,000.
And like you said, just the ability to have a professional grant writer, the ability to
have a full complement of staff is challenging for organizations of that size.
(06:58):
And so we do try to do what we can in order to uplift visibility, discipline, geography,
just giving a helping hand in terms of capacity in geographies and sectors that we know are just
maybe under-resourced to be able to do the, you know, to be able, compared to the impact that
(07:19):
they have in their communities.
We know that the impact is really great, but the resources are not always there.
So listeners, what I really want you to take away from what Michael does is
ArtsPun is about also building that connective tissue across all of these different
arts organizations to help promote the industry as a whole, not just about giving the dollars.
It's actually about that promotion, that voice.
(07:41):
Michael, I know that you have a really interesting background.
And so even though now you are this nonprofit leader, I know you have an MBA,
yet your first career started as you were the only professional ballet dancer I've ever met
who I've actually spoken to.
And you also not just lived in the U.S., but also India and China as well.
(08:01):
And so I'm sure that all of those experiences have really influenced how you come to this,
how you come to fostering curiosity at work.
So I want you to share those bits as I ask you these next series of questions.
Absolutely.
We think of curiosity as a practice, and there are times we do it and we don't do it.
(08:25):
It's really important to admit when it's hard.
And so first question for you is what prevents practicing curiosity in your workplace?
What are all those special factors that make it hard to practice curiosity at ArtsPun?
Yeah.
And I'll say that this applies to ArtsPun and pretty much every other sector, industry,
(08:52):
country, et cetera, that I've ever worked in, language, et cetera.
It's fear, right?
I think fear is the number one factor that prevents people from being curious.
And as a leader, I think a lot of times about that fear stems from leadership.
Are we positioning ourselves as leaders in order to give our employees enough space to be curious?
(09:25):
To be curious in their practice, to be curious in their work, to be curious
in the implementation of their work.
And it's not always this simple, but sometimes I think about, am I creating an environment
where if I'm creating an environment where punishment for failure is greater than rewards
(09:47):
for innovation, then I'm failing, right?
And people are not going to be curious.
What I try to strive for, and sometimes I think I do it, sometimes I probably don't,
but how am I creating an environment where you are rewarding innovation,
you're rewarding curiosity, you're rewarding new ways of looking at problems and solutions?
(10:11):
And if I'm doing that, if my VPs are doing that, if everyone is doing that in the organization,
then I think you create a culture of innovation and a culture of curiosity,
which is, in my opinion, a positive culture, particularly in a world today that moves so fast
and requires curiosity and innovation on a daily basis.
(10:34):
Michael, there is actual, sometimes fear can be perceived because of miscommunication
or because of external factors.
In the arts world, there's so much fear over just the livelihood.
Are we going to continue to exist?
Do you see that to be the case with your team and maybe other, with the organizations you fund?
(11:00):
Just the fear of, do people think we matter and are we going to continue to exist?
Absolutely.
I think that is a fear and I will say, and it's a realistic fear, but I will also say
that I think for most of us in the industry, the fear is about specific organizations,
(11:24):
not about art as a discipline.
I think it's really important to remember that art within human civilization or culture
has been present since we've been, since humanity has existed.
There are cave paintings.
(11:45):
There are stories of song and communications of stories as far back as recorded history.
I say that the one thing that keeps me able to sleep during the tough times is this idea that
art and culture will find a way to manifest itself within human culture always.
(12:07):
It is a part of us.
It's how we communicate with each other.
It's one of the ways that we communicate with each other.
It's one of, I think, the fundamental distinguishers of humanity.
In that respect, I don't think there's fear that art will go away.
Could you give an example, Michael?
Could you give either an arts fund or another organization, you don't have to name names,
(12:31):
maybe a type where it's just, oh, this is where I saw fear really got in the way.
I'm also assuming in capacity building, sometimes you will have those more
deeper relationships with your grantees as well.
You kind of see things that the public doesn't see.
I think in terms of performing arts, the model of folks coming into a hall and sitting shoulder
(12:58):
to shoulder for two hours or two and a half hours or whatever it is and experiencing something
together, there is a fear and a confusion, I think, about the future of that model.
Now, I don't think that model is ever going to go away.
Again, it has been kind of the basis of how we like to enjoy each other as a community.
(13:23):
That said, we live in a world today where there are multiple different ways to experience
entertainment on a personal level, in a more intimate setting, whether it's at home with
family, via the internet, whether it's on a device like a phone or an iPad.
There are challenges to that specific model that had really been one of the primary and maybe a
(13:48):
singular way of experiencing entertainment and art and culture for hundreds of years.
That was pretty much the way that you were able to engage with that type of art and culture.
Now, there's just a lot of different ways in order to do that same thing.
As we move forward, there's probably going to be additional ways.
(14:10):
When you look at virtual reality or any type of augmented reality, we are moving in a direction
of more choice when it comes to how we engage with entertainment.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, but the unknown breeds fear.
There's a lot of unknown in how we are moving forward in terms of that
(14:33):
engagement with art and culture and entertainment.
That is a specific area that I think there is a lot of fear around,
particularly within the performing arts field.
Thank you, Michael.
It makes me think about how fear can come from,
and are we going to continue to be irrelevant?
Also, there are all of these other mediums, and that's competition.
(15:01):
The competition can also, or you can see it as competition, or you can see it as innovation.
If I'm feeling it's competition, then that's where fear, and it makes it hard to be curious,
to practice curiosity.
Another way to reframe it, though, is, oh, well, this is going to push us
to try different things and maybe even collaborate.
(15:21):
Yeah, well, I think another way is it could be competition.
It could also be complementary.
I think that's the way that we are encouraging people to see any type of innovation is complementary.
We live in a world where new entrants to the market.
Those are young people.
Those are communities that have not typically had access to arts and culture,
(15:44):
whether that's financial or whether that's cultural.
These new ways of being able to engage can be seen as complement to the traditional way of
buying a ticket and sitting in a hall.
Ideally, and maybe I don't know if I'm speaking for myself, but there's no better way to experience
(16:10):
a performance than live, sitting shoulder to shoulder with a group of 50 or 5,000.
How you enter that space, there's multiple entry points right now.
You may see a short on YouTube for an opera, and you've never even thought about opera before,
(16:35):
but you may enjoy that.
That may be an entry point to something that was not really available to you for whatever reason,
10 years ago or five years ago.
I think as far as the way that we would like to see these new methods alleviate that fear
is to be able to see them as complements and entry points for new audiences, which we desperately need.
(17:01):
New audiences are critical to the survival of the sector in the form that it currently takes.
Michael, I am also a huge fan of seeing things live,
that experience of being shoulder to shoulder with audiences to hear the
true performers know how to engage the audience.
It's so almost flirt with the audience, and it's such a thrill to see that as well.
(17:23):
I like that reframe of people are feeling that competition,
how do we get people to see it as complimentary?
Now, I'm going to shift to the next question.
In this one, I'm actually going to ask you to maybe even think of examples from
your earlier career in India and China, because how do you encourage practicing curiosity?
Can you give me a specific example of how you encourage practicing curiosity in the workplace?
(17:51):
I ran a commodities yard for about three years in a port city in China.
And it was for a Dutch company and just a great family and had a great time.
But when I entered, I had just come from another organization where I had
(18:13):
built a lean production line for a manufacturer outside of Shanghai.
And it was interesting because we wanted to implement some of those lean best practices,
things like Six Sigma and reducing efficiency and all of that within this yard.
(18:36):
That was pretty rough, right?
And it was in an environment that was very top down,
that was very kind of authoritative and the managers told everyone what to do,
and then they did exactly that and managers were responsible.
And so over the time that I was there, I really tried to instill this idea of like,
(19:00):
are we listening to those that are the end users of the process, right?
Those that were actually separating the materials, those that were on the ground,
breaking up the raw metal, those that were the receivers of the material, the buyers, etc.
And it led us to a complete reorganization of the yard, the introduction of some capital that was
(19:32):
large scale machinery and we didn't reduce headcount at all,
but we got efficiency up significantly within the yard.
But it was really difficult because of that fear, the fear of,
well, what if I say something that doesn't work?
Am I going to get fired?
Am I going to be disciplined?
Am I going to get relegated to another part, a worse job or something like that?
(19:55):
And really having to lead by example and show that no, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
But if it does work, then you're going to be rewarded and it's going to be easier to do your job.
It's good that we're going to have better output in the organization, etc.
And I use that as an example because it really was an environment in which
(20:16):
innovation and collaboration was present, but there was a lot of fear behind it.
I mean, brilliant people that really knew their jobs and wanted to share
that experience and how to make things better.
But there was this underlying fear of, well, if it doesn't work, I'm going to be to blame.
(20:37):
And how to step back from that and show from a leadership position that no,
if it doesn't work, that's fine, right?
So long as no one gets hurt and so long as there's not significant financial losses,
we want to try things because at the end of the day, it should shake out
that more innovation leads to higher performance and better results.
(21:00):
So, Michael, you had to be the middle person there representing this family
and then also taking all of these workers through this new process.
And I hadn't thought about how the lean process is actually
a practice and curiosity of understanding the end users of the process.
Can you give though, our listeners love stories,
can you give a specific example of a story about, hey, you modeled that accepting
(21:27):
that I don't know, something like that.
So people, it'll stick in people's minds.
I'll stay there with the yard.
But, you know, we had a meeting one time where we asked everyone,
you know, what are the challenges that you have to getting your job done?
And, you know, we took all that feedback and, you know, without getting into details,
(21:51):
because I'm sure not everyone understands how a commodities yard is organized,
right, in a port city in China.
Some people probably do, but not everyone.
But, you know, we took all those ideas and we started to implement them kind of one by one.
Some of them work.
Some of them didn't.
And it was OK.
And I think that's what I want to get at was that at first, when we had that team meeting
(22:16):
and we're talking about 70, 80, 90, you know, migrant workers in Ningbo, China.
And, you know, people were really hesitant.
They were like, I don't know if I want to stick my neck out here.
And eventually it came to the fact that there were a lot of really good ideas
(22:38):
that we were not getting in terms of management.
Now, some of them worked and some of them didn't.
But, you know, over the course of several years, we implemented a lot of them
and things ran a lot smoother.
So I don't want to get too specific because then you're getting into technical jargon and,
you know, how to organize, which probably won't help your listeners at all.
(22:58):
But the takeaway is that, you know, we sat down, we asked questions and we did so in a way
that let people know there would not be retaliation for failure.
And that is super important in manufacturing.
It's super important in grant making and the arts.
(23:18):
Another example, just a quick story that I'll give you is when I started at Arts Fund,
I remember I was really trying to do kind of the same thing and saying,
well, you know, what would you do in this place?
What would you what would you do in this situation?
How could we make this better?
And, you know, I got some feedback.
I was like, we're not always used to being asked those questions or being able to,
(23:43):
you know, like we do things a certain way and rightfully so,
because, you know, we are the stewards of a lot of individual capital.
Then it's very important that we remain stewards of that and be protective of it.
But really leaning into the idea that the end user is the voice that we want to hear in this.
(24:06):
And how do we tease that out, right?
How do we tease that voice out?
Knowing that not everything, not every idea is going to work.
There's the one-way, two-way door example that someone told me a long time ago.
If it is a two-way door, if you can walk back through a decision that you made, just do it,
you know, let me know that you did it, but just do it.
(24:28):
Because if we can walk back through that door,
we're fine and everyone will learn their lesson and, you know, we'll move on.
Now, if it's a one-way door, which means that once you walk through it,
there's no turning back and that could be, you know,
physical harm or significant financial loss or something along that line,
then, you know, we need to stop and think and weigh our options.
(24:50):
And, you know, is this really worth the risk?
But most decisions I find in any type of organization or leadership, it's a two-way door,
right?
There is a way to walk back through it.
And if that's the case, I say, go for it, right?
Because if we're not doing that, then we're missing out on a lot of potential new ideas
that will take the industry forward and eventually, you know, move your mission forward.
(25:13):
It makes me think about how often people probably assume this is a one-way door
and it's actually a two-way door and we don't even ask.
And also a theme I'm hearing, whether it's a port city in China or arts fund in Seattle,
is there's about empowerment and do people feel empowered to make these decisions?
Or do they feel that they're more just overseeing the transaction
(25:33):
or overseeing someone else's orders?
And there's so many things there that we can get into,
but I just want listeners to think about the layers of culture as well
that plays into people's ability to, or just comfort with practicing curiosity.
So next question is about interviewing.
(25:58):
And so Michael, you said that you were about to grow the team and you,
and so my next question is, what is a favorite interview question that you have?
Or something when you are looking, how do you look for curiosity for new team members?
Absolutely.
Well, I think first and foremost, it's important to remember that
(26:19):
the interview process is not singular, right?
We have a director of HR, anyone that is hiring for their team
is the team leader in conjunction with HR for that hire.
And I'm there really, we've just had a couple of interviews the other day
where I'm really just there so that potential employees have a chance to talk to me
(26:43):
and figure out whether they want to work for me, right?
And in an organization that I'm leading much,
and I think the technical aspects of is a person the right fit or not,
that really lands in the hands of whoever their direct report is going to be.
But I will say that for VPs or direct reports that I'm hiring,
it's really about how informed they are about the organization
(27:09):
and then how they use that information to ask good questions, right?
I think there are individuals that often come in having read everything, right?
And then kind of stopping there, right?
And saying, well, I know YMV.
That's great.
And it shows initiative.
And it shows that people have taken the time
(27:29):
to learn about Arts Fund and the sector, et cetera.
But I think what is really telling is when someone takes that information,
takes that initiative, and then uses it to ask another layer of questions.
You know, why is it that we do it this way?
Where would my role fit into what I'm seeing the ultimate vision is of the organization
(27:56):
or the impact that's stated in your annual report or in your grant reports or what that is?
So I think for me, someone that can show that they've taken the time
and the initiative to learn about the organization
and then taken that information and translated it into questions
that maybe I've never thought of, right?
A lot of really great hires sometimes are like, yeah, that's a great question.
(28:20):
And ultimately, they're the ones that are employed to help answer that question, right?
I think that to me shows someone can take information and then process it in a way
that will be ultimately impactful for the communities we're trying to serve.
Yes.
I actually really enjoy when talking to people.
(28:40):
They read the website.
It's just, oh, you asked me a question I don't know how to answer.
Whoa, OK.
I have to really think about that.
And so not just taking the information, but absorbing it and then coming up with new insights.
So Michael, what's a resource for you in terms of practicing curiosity in your own life?
(29:03):
What inspires you?
Everything, right?
I mean, life.
You're just one, Michael, just one.
Right.
Well, I mean, I think there's so much.
I have two wonderful children, and watching that is constantly inspirational, right?
And I think for anyone, whether you have children of your own or whether, I mean, we're all
(29:27):
in an environment that is, you know, that has children in it or young people in it and
watching the way that someone else is going through a stage of life or an experience that
you've already been through, but that they are going to go through completely different
(29:47):
than you did.
And watching that and kind of not analyzing, but thinking to yourself, wow, I think about
that all the time, but I'll just, I'm assuming this podcast is not listened to.
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is
where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hi, welcome to the Curiosity at Work podcast.
(00:27):
I'm Dr. Julie Pham, the CEO of Curiosity Based, and I'm an Asian woman with shoulder-length
straight black hair wearing a gray turtleneck.
Today I get to interview the CEO of Arts Fund, Michael Greer.
Michael and I met about five years ago when he first moved to Seattle, and he does incredible
work in helping spread and fund arts in our community.
(00:51):
Michael, could you just tell a little bit more about what Arts Fund is and what you
do in the community, and also what your organization, how many people there are, how you work?
Yeah, Julie, it's great to see you today.
I also like to just jump in with a quick visual description because I never know who's tuning
into these things, but my name is Michael Greer, as you mentioned.
(01:13):
I'm the president and CEO of Arts Fund.
I'm a light-skinned black male with no hair, wearing chunky black glasses, and wearing
a brown sweater today.
You asked about Arts Fund.
Our mission is to support the arts through leadership, advocacy, and grant-making in
order to build a more healthy, equitable, and creative Washington.
(01:34):
I say that because our lines of business are really within that mission.
When we're talking about leadership, advocacy, and grant-making, what we do is our work is
centered around capacity-building programs, public sector and private sector advocacy,
and then fundraising and granting and re-granting.
(01:56):
Those are the three lines of business, if you want to look at it that way.
We've got about 15 FTEs right now, but we're budgeted up to 18 for the year, so we'll be
doing a little bit of hiring over the course of fiscal 25.
We're a hybrid shop right now, and we can talk about this, but my personal opinion is,
(02:23):
for our team, do what you have to do in order to get the work done.
That's really what this is about.
We've got a great space down in Queen Anne, and it is available.
We've got people that are coming in and out of the space all the time, but we also have
grown, so we have people that are located in Bellingham and Issaquah and Tacoma and Kent.
(02:47):
I'm out on Bainbridge, so really, wherever people need to get the work done, they need
to get the work done, and everyone is an FTE.
We bring in some contractors throughout the course of the year, but we really rely primarily
on our full-time employees.
Michael, now, for the grant-making, you said that most of that is private funds, then?
(03:11):
Yes.
How much of that is of your work versus capacity building?
Well, it's an interesting mix, because I think those three lines of business really lever
on each other, and so we distribute ... Well, in fiscal 24, we distributed just about $12.5
million to about 811 organizations across 38 out of 39 counties in Washington State,
(03:40):
and on top of that, we also did a significant number of capacity-building programs, so things
like bringing in the nonprofit finance fund, speaking with individuals and organizations
about capacity-building for their own organizations and figuring out how to get audience engagement,
(04:04):
butts in seats, some topics that are really front of mind for the organizations that we
partner with.
And when I say that everything is kind of intertwined, that $12.5 million that we put
out in grants, while we spend a significant amount of our time and effort on that, we
know that that's not nearly enough to keep doors open 100% for the organizations that
(04:30):
we support.
When you're talking about 800, 900 organizations across the state, those are cumulative budgets
in the hundreds of millions of dollars, and so our dollars are there to support financially
organizations that are out there, but also to message to other stakeholders and other
decision-makers within the community that this is a sector that people care about.
(04:53):
If we can show that there are $12.5 million worth of private funds that people are willing
to distribute to arts and culture nonprofits in communities across the state, that's a
signal to public sector decision-makers, private sector decision-makers, that this is an important
sector to their constituents, whether they're voting constituents or employees or consumers.
(05:21):
So I really like how you give to so many different organizations, because I know it's a big vote
of confidence for those younger, for those newer grassroots organizations, those small
ones that might even just be volunteer-run.
They don't have those professional grant writers.
So I want to understand, of your 15 staff, how many actually do grant-making versus that
capacity-building?
Is that the main function?
(05:41):
Yeah, so our grant-making staff is actually quite small.
We will have three full-time employees, and then we also bring in one or two contractors,
depending on where we are in the season for grant-making.
But it's about three, and then in terms of our capacity-building, that spans the organization,
(06:06):
but our strategic initiatives and communications department, which is what really handles a lot
of the capacity-building programs and outreach, that department, it can also, with contractors,
that can range anywhere between four and five individuals.
So it really gets at how you are building the capacity of the arts field and trying to
(06:32):
promote people as well, promote those organizations as well.
Absolutely.
And you mentioned the size of the organizations.
A large number of the organizations that we support across the state have budgets under
$500,000.
And like you said, just the ability to have a professional grant writer, the ability to
have a full complement of staff is challenging for organizations of that size.
(06:58):
And so we do try to do what we can in order to uplift visibility, discipline, geography,
just giving a helping hand in terms of capacity in geographies and sectors that we know are just
maybe under-resourced to be able to do the, you know, to be able, compared to the impact that
(07:19):
they have in their communities.
We know that the impact is really great, but the resources are not always there.
So listeners, what I really want you to take away from what Michael does is
ArtsPun is about also building that connective tissue across all of these different
arts organizations to help promote the industry as a whole, not just about giving the dollars.
It's actually about that promotion, that voice.
(07:41):
Michael, I know that you have a really interesting background.
And so even though now you are this nonprofit leader, I know you have an MBA,
yet your first career started as you were the only professional ballet dancer I've ever met
who I've actually spoken to.
And you also not just lived in the U.S., but also India and China as well.
(08:01):
And so I'm sure that all of those experiences have really influenced how you come to this,
how you come to fostering curiosity at work.
So I want you to share those bits as I ask you these next series of questions.
Absolutely.
We think of curiosity as a practice, and there are times we do it and we don't do it.
(08:25):
It's really important to admit when it's hard.
And so first question for you is what prevents practicing curiosity in your workplace?
What are all those special factors that make it hard to practice curiosity at ArtsPun?
Yeah.
And I'll say that this applies to ArtsPun and pretty much every other sector, industry,
(08:52):
country, et cetera, that I've ever worked in, language, et cetera.
It's fear, right?
I think fear is the number one factor that prevents people from being curious.
And as a leader, I think a lot of times about that fear stems from leadership.
Are we positioning ourselves as leaders in order to give our employees enough space to be curious?
(09:25):
To be curious in their practice, to be curious in their work, to be curious
in the implementation of their work.
And it's not always this simple, but sometimes I think about, am I creating an environment
where if I'm creating an environment where punishment for failure is greater than rewards
(09:47):
for innovation, then I'm failing, right?
And people are not going to be curious.
What I try to strive for, and sometimes I think I do it, sometimes I probably don't,
but how am I creating an environment where you are rewarding innovation,
you're rewarding curiosity, you're rewarding new ways of looking at problems and solutions?
(10:11):
And if I'm doing that, if my VPs are doing that, if everyone is doing that in the organization,
then I think you create a culture of innovation and a culture of curiosity,
which is, in my opinion, a positive culture, particularly in a world today that moves so fast
and requires curiosity and innovation on a daily basis.
(10:34):
Michael, there is actual, sometimes fear can be perceived because of miscommunication
or because of external factors.
In the arts world, there's so much fear over just the livelihood.
Are we going to continue to exist?
Do you see that to be the case with your team and maybe other, with the organizations you fund?
(11:00):
Just the fear of, do people think we matter and are we going to continue to exist?
Absolutely.
I think that is a fear and I will say, and it's a realistic fear, but I will also say
that I think for most of us in the industry, the fear is about specific organizations,
(11:24):
not about art as a discipline.
I think it's really important to remember that art within human civilization or culture
has been present since we've been, since humanity has existed.
There are cave paintings.
(11:45):
There are stories of song and communications of stories as far back as recorded history.
I say that the one thing that keeps me able to sleep during the tough times is this idea that
art and culture will find a way to manifest itself within human culture always.
(12:07):
It is a part of us.
It's how we communicate with each other.
It's one of the ways that we communicate with each other.
It's one of, I think, the fundamental distinguishers of humanity.
In that respect, I don't think there's fear that art will go away.
Could you give an example, Michael?
Could you give either an arts fund or another organization, you don't have to name names,
(12:31):
maybe a type where it's just, oh, this is where I saw fear really got in the way.
I'm also assuming in capacity building, sometimes you will have those more
deeper relationships with your grantees as well.
You kind of see things that the public doesn't see.
I think in terms of performing arts, the model of folks coming into a hall and sitting shoulder
(12:58):
to shoulder for two hours or two and a half hours or whatever it is and experiencing something
together, there is a fear and a confusion, I think, about the future of that model.
Now, I don't think that model is ever going to go away.
Again, it has been kind of the basis of how we like to enjoy each other as a community.
(13:23):
That said, we live in a world today where there are multiple different ways to experience
entertainment on a personal level, in a more intimate setting, whether it's at home with
family, via the internet, whether it's on a device like a phone or an iPad.
There are challenges to that specific model that had really been one of the primary and maybe a
(13:48):
singular way of experiencing entertainment and art and culture for hundreds of years.
That was pretty much the way that you were able to engage with that type of art and culture.
Now, there's just a lot of different ways in order to do that same thing.
As we move forward, there's probably going to be additional ways.
(14:10):
When you look at virtual reality or any type of augmented reality, we are moving in a direction
of more choice when it comes to how we engage with entertainment.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, but the unknown breeds fear.
There's a lot of unknown in how we are moving forward in terms of that
(14:33):
engagement with art and culture and entertainment.
That is a specific area that I think there is a lot of fear around,
particularly within the performing arts field.
Thank you, Michael.
It makes me think about how fear can come from,
and are we going to continue to be irrelevant?
Also, there are all of these other mediums, and that's competition.
(15:01):
The competition can also, or you can see it as competition, or you can see it as innovation.
If I'm feeling it's competition, then that's where fear, and it makes it hard to be curious,
to practice curiosity.
Another way to reframe it, though, is, oh, well, this is going to push us
to try different things and maybe even collaborate.
(15:21):
Yeah, well, I think another way is it could be competition.
It could also be complementary.
I think that's the way that we are encouraging people to see any type of innovation is complementary.
We live in a world where new entrants to the market.
Those are young people.
Those are communities that have not typically had access to arts and culture,
(15:44):
whether that's financial or whether that's cultural.
These new ways of being able to engage can be seen as complement to the traditional way of
buying a ticket and sitting in a hall.
Ideally, and maybe I don't know if I'm speaking for myself, but there's no better way to experience
(16:10):
a performance than live, sitting shoulder to shoulder with a group of 50 or 5,000.
How you enter that space, there's multiple entry points right now.
You may see a short on YouTube for an opera, and you've never even thought about opera before,
(16:35):
but you may enjoy that.
That may be an entry point to something that was not really available to you for whatever reason,
10 years ago or five years ago.
I think as far as the way that we would like to see these new methods alleviate that fear
is to be able to see them as complements and entry points for new audiences, which we desperately need.
(17:01):
New audiences are critical to the survival of the sector in the form that it currently takes.
Michael, I am also a huge fan of seeing things live,
that experience of being shoulder to shoulder with audiences to hear the
true performers know how to engage the audience.
It's so almost flirt with the audience, and it's such a thrill to see that as well.
(17:23):
I like that reframe of people are feeling that competition,
how do we get people to see it as complimentary?
Now, I'm going to shift to the next question.
In this one, I'm actually going to ask you to maybe even think of examples from
your earlier career in India and China, because how do you encourage practicing curiosity?
Can you give me a specific example of how you encourage practicing curiosity in the workplace?
(17:51):
I ran a commodities yard for about three years in a port city in China.
And it was for a Dutch company and just a great family and had a great time.
But when I entered, I had just come from another organization where I had
(18:13):
built a lean production line for a manufacturer outside of Shanghai.
And it was interesting because we wanted to implement some of those lean best practices,
things like Six Sigma and reducing efficiency and all of that within this yard.
(18:36):
That was pretty rough, right?
And it was in an environment that was very top down,
that was very kind of authoritative and the managers told everyone what to do,
and then they did exactly that and managers were responsible.
And so over the time that I was there, I really tried to instill this idea of like,
(19:00):
are we listening to those that are the end users of the process, right?
Those that were actually separating the materials, those that were on the ground,
breaking up the raw metal, those that were the receivers of the material, the buyers, etc.
And it led us to a complete reorganization of the yard, the introduction of some capital that was
(19:32):
large scale machinery and we didn't reduce headcount at all,
but we got efficiency up significantly within the yard.
But it was really difficult because of that fear, the fear of,
well, what if I say something that doesn't work?
Am I going to get fired?
Am I going to be disciplined?
Am I going to get relegated to another part, a worse job or something like that?
(19:55):
And really having to lead by example and show that no, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
But if it does work, then you're going to be rewarded and it's going to be easier to do your job.
It's good that we're going to have better output in the organization, etc.
And I use that as an example because it really was an environment in which
(20:16):
innovation and collaboration was present, but there was a lot of fear behind it.
I mean, brilliant people that really knew their jobs and wanted to share
that experience and how to make things better.
But there was this underlying fear of, well, if it doesn't work, I'm going to be to blame.
(20:37):
And how to step back from that and show from a leadership position that no,
if it doesn't work, that's fine, right?
So long as no one gets hurt and so long as there's not significant financial losses,
we want to try things because at the end of the day, it should shake out
that more innovation leads to higher performance and better results.
(21:00):
So, Michael, you had to be the middle person there representing this family
and then also taking all of these workers through this new process.
And I hadn't thought about how the lean process is actually
a practice and curiosity of understanding the end users of the process.
Can you give though, our listeners love stories,
can you give a specific example of a story about, hey, you modeled that accepting
(21:27):
that I don't know, something like that.
So people, it'll stick in people's minds.
I'll stay there with the yard.
But, you know, we had a meeting one time where we asked everyone,
you know, what are the challenges that you have to getting your job done?
And, you know, we took all that feedback and, you know, without getting into details,
(21:51):
because I'm sure not everyone understands how a commodities yard is organized,
right, in a port city in China.
Some people probably do, but not everyone.
But, you know, we took all those ideas and we started to implement them kind of one by one.
Some of them work.
Some of them didn't.
And it was OK.
And I think that's what I want to get at was that at first, when we had that team meeting
(22:16):
and we're talking about 70, 80, 90, you know, migrant workers in Ningbo, China.
And, you know, people were really hesitant.
They were like, I don't know if I want to stick my neck out here.
And eventually it came to the fact that there were a lot of really good ideas
(22:38):
that we were not getting in terms of management.
Now, some of them worked and some of them didn't.
But, you know, over the course of several years, we implemented a lot of them
and things ran a lot smoother.
So I don't want to get too specific because then you're getting into technical jargon and,
you know, how to organize, which probably won't help your listeners at all.
(22:58):
But the takeaway is that, you know, we sat down, we asked questions and we did so in a way
that let people know there would not be retaliation for failure.
And that is super important in manufacturing.
It's super important in grant making and the arts.
(23:18):
Another example, just a quick story that I'll give you is when I started at Arts Fund,
I remember I was really trying to do kind of the same thing and saying,
well, you know, what would you do in this place?
What would you what would you do in this situation?
How could we make this better?
And, you know, I got some feedback.
I was like, we're not always used to being asked those questions or being able to,
(23:43):
you know, like we do things a certain way and rightfully so,
because, you know, we are the stewards of a lot of individual capital.
Then it's very important that we remain stewards of that and be protective of it.
But really leaning into the idea that the end user is the voice that we want to hear in this.
(24:06):
And how do we tease that out, right?
How do we tease that voice out?
Knowing that not everything, not every idea is going to work.
There's the one-way, two-way door example that someone told me a long time ago.
If it is a two-way door, if you can walk back through a decision that you made, just do it,
you know, let me know that you did it, but just do it.
(24:28):
Because if we can walk back through that door,
we're fine and everyone will learn their lesson and, you know, we'll move on.
Now, if it's a one-way door, which means that once you walk through it,
there's no turning back and that could be, you know,
physical harm or significant financial loss or something along that line,
then, you know, we need to stop and think and weigh our options.
(24:50):
And, you know, is this really worth the risk?
But most decisions I find in any type of organization or leadership, it's a two-way door,
right?
There is a way to walk back through it.
And if that's the case, I say, go for it, right?
Because if we're not doing that, then we're missing out on a lot of potential new ideas
that will take the industry forward and eventually, you know, move your mission forward.
(25:13):
It makes me think about how often people probably assume this is a one-way door
and it's actually a two-way door and we don't even ask.
And also a theme I'm hearing, whether it's a port city in China or arts fund in Seattle,
is there's about empowerment and do people feel empowered to make these decisions?
Or do they feel that they're more just overseeing the transaction
(25:33):
or overseeing someone else's orders?
And there's so many things there that we can get into,
but I just want listeners to think about the layers of culture as well
that plays into people's ability to, or just comfort with practicing curiosity.
So next question is about interviewing.
(25:58):
And so Michael, you said that you were about to grow the team and you,
and so my next question is, what is a favorite interview question that you have?
Or something when you are looking, how do you look for curiosity for new team members?
Absolutely.
Well, I think first and foremost, it's important to remember that
(26:19):
the interview process is not singular, right?
We have a director of HR, anyone that is hiring for their team
is the team leader in conjunction with HR for that hire.
And I'm there really, we've just had a couple of interviews the other day
where I'm really just there so that potential employees have a chance to talk to me
(26:43):
and figure out whether they want to work for me, right?
And in an organization that I'm leading much,
and I think the technical aspects of is a person the right fit or not,
that really lands in the hands of whoever their direct report is going to be.
But I will say that for VPs or direct reports that I'm hiring,
it's really about how informed they are about the organization
(27:09):
and then how they use that information to ask good questions, right?
I think there are individuals that often come in having read everything, right?
And then kind of stopping there, right?
And saying, well, I know YMV.
That's great.
And it shows initiative.
And it shows that people have taken the time
(27:29):
to learn about Arts Fund and the sector, et cetera.
But I think what is really telling is when someone takes that information,
takes that initiative, and then uses it to ask another layer of questions.
You know, why is it that we do it this way?
Where would my role fit into what I'm seeing the ultimate vision is of the organization
(27:56):
or the impact that's stated in your annual report or in your grant reports or what that is?
So I think for me, someone that can show that they've taken the time
and the initiative to learn about the organization
and then taken that information and translated it into questions
that maybe I've never thought of, right?
A lot of really great hires sometimes are like, yeah, that's a great question.
(28:20):
And ultimately, they're the ones that are employed to help answer that question, right?
I think that to me shows someone can take information and then process it in a way
that will be ultimately impactful for the communities we're trying to serve.
Yes.
I actually really enjoy when talking to people.
(28:40):
They read the website.
It's just, oh, you asked me a question I don't know how to answer.
Whoa, OK.
I have to really think about that.
And so not just taking the information, but absorbing it and then coming up with new insights.
So Michael, what's a resource for you in terms of practicing curiosity in your own life?
(29:03):
What inspires you?
Everything, right?
I mean, life.
You're just one, Michael, just one.
Right.
Well, I mean, I think there's so much.
I have two wonderful children, and watching that is constantly inspirational, right?
And I think for anyone, whether you have children of your own or whether, I mean, we're all
(29:27):
in an environment that is, you know, that has children in it or young people in it and
watching the way that someone else is going through a stage of life or an experience that
you've already been through, but that they are going to go through completely different
(29:47):
than you did.
And watching that and kind of not analyzing, but thinking to yourself, wow, I think about
that all the time, but I'll just, I'm assuming this podcast is not listened to.
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