December 2, 2024 • 28 mins
In this episode of Curiosity at Work, Dr. Julie Pham chats with Phoebe Sade, Executive Officer of BrightSpark Early Learning Services, about how to apply curiosity to a rapidly growing nonprofit that relies primarily on government funding. Phoebe shares insights from leading BrightSpark through adapting communication for a younger, diverse workforce and rethinking coaching models to serve communities while preventing staff burnout. She emphasizes the role of empathy, openness, and giving staff permission to ask questions, challenge norms, and create impactful solutions within constraints. Tune in for practical lessons on fostering curiosity and driving meaningful change in the social sector.
Connect with Dr. Julie Pham:
- LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliepham2/
- Website:https://curiositybased.com/
- Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/juliephamphd/
Connect with Phoebe Sade:
- Email: sade@childcare.org
- Website: https://www.brightspark.org/
If you enjoyed this insightful conversation, don’t forget to hit the subscribe button! By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode filled with inspiring leaders and valuable discussions on how curiosity drives innovation, leadership, and workplace culture. Join us on the journey of continuous learning—subscribe now and stay curious!
#PhoebeSade #BrightSparkEarlyLearning #CuriosityAtWork #NonprofitLeadership #EarlyLearning #SocialImpact #Leadership #Innovation #WorkplaceCulture #EmpathyInLeadership
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hello, welcome to the Curiosity at Work podcast.
(00:25):
I am Julie Bam, and I'm super excited to be here today with Phoebe Thade, a dear friend of mine.
She is the executive officer of BrightSpark Early Learning Services, a nonprofit based here in King County.
And Phoebe has over 25 years of experience working in the social sector, and she's also an executive coach.
(00:49):
Welcome, Phoebe.
Oh, thank you.
So nice to be here.
So, Phoebe, let's start off with, you could just tell us a bit about BrightSpark, how many people there are, how you work, what kind of functions are at BrightSpark.
Sure.
Okay, so we are a pretty big nonprofit.
We're about 145 staff.
(01:13):
We are both landed in King and Pierce counties, and we do some statewide work, and we're a hybrid organization at this point, post-pandemic.
What's interesting about our organization is we're a connector organization.
So we are focused on early learning, but we don't deliver services directly to children.
(01:33):
We support all of the adults in the lives of young people.
So we are coaches and trainers.
We do a lot of work around access to early learning.
We're an organization rooted in anti-racism, so really focusing on who has access and who doesn't.
We raise a lot of funds to create safety nets for families, and we do a lot of advocacy and systems change within the early learning world.
(02:02):
So what I'm hearing is you actually support the people who help the kids.
Because oftentimes, it's just, oh, well, help the kids, no, but the people who help the kids also need support as well.
Yes.
Families, childcare providers, whole communities are wrapped around children.
And so our role is to partner with and really support and uplift all of those folks.
(02:26):
And it sounds like that that would require thinking short-term for the immediate needs of the kids and also long-term as well, because you said that you also do policy and advocacy work.
So with that, it sounds like there could be a lot of challenges.
A lot of times, people talk about the importance of curiosity, and we like to ask our guests, well, what about when is it hard for you to practice curiosity?
(02:51):
We've talked about all the times we like to do it, but what makes it hard for you to practice in your workplace?
This makes me think about the last few years.
I moved into the executive officer role right before the pandemic.
And for years before that, I had been supporting all of our program work.
(03:11):
And so we have seen so much growth and change, the pandemic.
And then as a result, we grew a lot, we stretched some of our service delivery, and we absolutely morphed to the needs of our communities.
And we saw, like many other nonprofits, a lot of shifts in staff, a lot of turnover.
People's lives were so dramatically impacted from the pandemic.
(03:35):
It's just so interesting to think about as a leader, like what's happening within the organization, because we can't do any of our good missional work unless our staff are deeply engaged and feeling really supported.
And what I've noticed over the last couple of years is more and more instances of newer staff having frustrations with how communication was being handled, decision making, feelings of sort of inclusion in the organization.
(04:04):
And that forced me as a leader, and then me with all of our leadership teams to really think about like, what is going on?
What's happening?
What's the experience of newer staff versus seasoned staff?
And there were a lot of trial and errors, like let's work on the supervisory bandwidth.
Let's ensure that staff are feeling more supported by their supervisors and strengthening accountability and communication and feedback.
(04:31):
And one of the most startling pieces of evidence in all of this is our demographic data.
And just recently looked at it again, and 28% of our organization has come in in the last year and 40% in the last two years.
And we are, as I said, 145 strong.
(04:52):
But for many, many years, we were a small, like 25, 30 person organization.
And what that made me realize and be curious about is like, how is information passed on in this organization?
I think for so long, norms and practices and protocols were orally shared.
(05:13):
I mean, they were written somewhere, but they were more often just, you know, this is how we do this, or this is why we do this.
And what it has shown me, which is surprising, is we have to be really explicit and direct and clear, and we have to document and write everything down now.
We can't assume that people will interpret how we expect folks to, you know, work through our organization.
(05:41):
And so, you know, for an organization that's focusing on anti-racism, documenting is very white-dominant culture.
But access to information in an equitable way is so critical that we are working to find the balance.
And I just, you know, I don't know that I would have thought that shifting into that place of like explicit and documented practices would be a really valid solution for an organization like ours.
(06:13):
And, you know, I think that that's just something that's been kind of wild to learn and to move into.
Phoebe, how long have you been at BrightSpark?
12 or 13 years.
And so when you started, how many people were there?
When I walked in the door, there were about 35.
So you went from 35 to 145 people.
(06:35):
And you're saying 40 percent of that is in the last two years.
And so I can really see how that would challenge your curiosity, because you've been there for so long and for so long it worked well.
Yes.
And, you know, I had my own assumptions about how we how we did our work and it was kind of blew everything up.
And of those people who are new to the organization, how many are also just new to the workplace and the workforce?
(07:02):
Because that's another layer, too, because this is also their first experience.
And then I can imagine that's challenging as well.
It is a much younger workforce than we have had historically.
And that's another data point that I think begs us to be curious about, like, do our benefits still resonate with a with a very different demographic?
(07:25):
And so I think that's an example.
But there's a lot of places where we now need to kind of like rethink things and just be open to very different perspectives and very different values around around all of it.
Phoebe, I know that I have been well, it worked for me.
I don't understand why it doesn't work for you.
Just sometimes.
Wait a minute.
And I like what you said about the having certain values.
(07:48):
And yet sometimes those values can conflict.
And so actually, we then have to think about what to prioritize as well.
And in this case, what I'm hearing you say is that prioritizing of the documentation, which can actually be also about as you scale to.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So what about what is something that you do with, especially with such a growing workforce?
(08:11):
What do you do to help help people practice curiosity in the workplace?
You know, we're an interesting organization because we are also predominantly government funded.
And and I think that that's interesting because we have very longstanding contracts.
(08:32):
They tend to be prescriptive.
And, you know, year over year, they don't change dramatically.
And I think that the container of our work doesn't always.
Inspire creativity and curiosity.
So I actually think that when we hit that place where the revenue doesn't match the proposed deliverables anymore, which can happen if you have a multiyear contract and like an increase is not sort of built in year to year.
(09:03):
You get to this place where our funder expects the same level of service but the funding isn't matching that.
And we have an example of that right now.
One of our biggest programs.
And, you know, in the social services and especially in early learning, we're talking about children.
And so we always try to make it work like we can make it work.
And, you know, the the intense downside of that is that the burden falls on staff.
(09:30):
And that's just that is not fair and it's not aligned with our values.
And so, you know, very recently I said to the program leader, I need you and I invite you into a space of curiosity.
I need you to rethink how we deliver services, knowing that the revenue has changed.
(09:50):
Like, like, don't try to do more than what we are truly being funded to do.
And so I think sometimes it is both that invitation to be really curious, but also permission.
And as much as I don't like that, I think that, you know, people come people come to work with all sorts of experiences with other organizations or companies, and sometimes they feel like they don't have the authority to be curious.
(10:20):
And I think I think it's really important to be explicit that curiosity is is expected and invited.
And when you have a situation that really like involves a big rethink, really like like explicitly asking people, I want you to be curious.
I want you to poke and prod at all the places that you have the ability to, you know, think about making change.
(10:44):
And then a part of that too, and this is, you know, specific to the example I'm using, is me saying, and I will take that and advocate for you.
Like, I will go and be the voice with funder to fight for what you have created, you and your team have created with curiosity and creativity.
So, Phoebe, could you give a example of, okay, you're telling your team this is our envelope.
(11:10):
And I also don't want you to burn out.
And so what did they come back with as, okay, we're going to do this a little differently because this still works within the budget.
And we're not going to burn out.
And they also feel empowered because you've invited them to be part of that solution too.
So what's an example of that?
(11:30):
You know what?
They came back with some really bold thinking.
And what I love about it, and I'll talk about their process because I think the process is great, this is a team of probably 70 staff in this team.
And so the program leaders very intentionally and thoughtfully got staff together in different venues and different small groups and big groups and just invited as much thinking as possible, like pushing against perceived boundaries that we have always worked under, and really invited a lot of curiosity.
(12:05):
What would it look like if we didn't always do it like this?
What would it look like if we created new ways of delivering this service?
And what they came back with is a really bold proposition of honoring staff, their workload, and their lives, not jeopardizing that, but also really creatively serving our community.
(12:34):
And it looks very different than we've done it in the past.
So could you be specific though?
Can you help the listener imagine just one example of what did you, so it wasn't just about cutting, it was about doing something different.
Yeah.
So we deliver coaching services.
And we traditionally deliver them in a one-to-one model.
(12:55):
So that is incredibly valuable, the idea of peer coaching, the idea of walking alongside a childcare provider who needs support and around quality improvement.
And the model wasn't sustainable as we could not fund the staff to match the need of providers.
(13:17):
And so what they came back with was some really ingenious ways of saying we could do group experiences, we could do more remote experiences with those who seem maybe less engaged or less excited about more one-to-one.
And just looking at sort of what had always been the expectations and saying there are other ways to meet this and there are ways to our staff will not feel like they are unable to meet the responsibilities of the role.
(13:50):
So just rethinking the model, which I thought was great.
That's such a great and clear example.
I find that especially in the nonprofit space and social sector, it's, hey, there's such a focus on why it matters.
We need to get people this coaching.
We need to give them this.
And yet you can change how it's delivered.
If you are willing to walk away or reimagine that, it reminds me of one of my favorite examples of how Impressionism came to be.
(14:18):
And it's the Monet and Renoir were just, oh, we don't have black paint right now.
And so they started using violet.
And that became the darkest color.
And that's when you look at Impressionist painting, it's so much lighter because it doesn't have black.
And so I really think that constraints can get people to be more curious and to be more creative.
(14:42):
And, yeah, it's one of my favorite examples of constraints.
And listeners, I also just want to clarify and explain something that Phoebe had shared, which is a lot of people, there are those nonprofits that are, she said, that are largely funded by government.
And so even though it's not government, that means that they still have a lot of the constraints and regulations of government.
(15:08):
And yet within a nonprofit structure, there's also still that creativity.
And for those of you who don't know this, it can be really hard for nonprofits when they are getting these government contracts and inflation happens and things happen.
And yet that's what's locked into place.
And taxpayers say, well, we don't want to pay more because this is what we budgeted.
And yet the economy changes.
(15:30):
So just something to keep in mind as you think about, well, and you hear in the news, well, these social services, they are changing, these social service agencies are changing how they use their, provide the services.
And that's because the situation changes.
So thank you for sharing that, Phoebe.
(15:50):
Now, with such a growing, I mean, 40%, wow, in the last two years, and you've really had to scale, and also this is a relatively new role for you as well.
How do you look for curiosity?
How do you look for people who are going to appreciate those constraints and the opportunity in them?
(16:14):
What is, and so very specifically, what's an interview question or recruiting tactic that you like to share and that also that you're sharing with your team so that they're doing it throughout the organization?
No, that's a great question.
It's one that we have been working on quite a bit.
Quite a lot, as we have done a lot of hiring.
(16:35):
But as I'm bringing on a team member, particularly a team member in leadership who I really want to lead by example, so what are they bringing to the organization, I do find that scenario breakdown questions are really exciting.
So I don't expect someone to have the context of a question.
(16:56):
So I will, within usually the second interview, ask them to work on a challenge that we ourselves have worked on or maybe are in the middle of working on.
And I let them know that it's less about like, you know, knowing what the acronyms are or what the context in early learning is.
It's really more about I want to hear how you think about things.
(17:19):
And so, you know, we ask them to sort of unpack a challenge, how they might approach it.
And what I think is important is we also say, and bring us any questions that would help you get to the next step, because I love to hear what questions they're either asking themselves or they know they need to be curious about with others, with teams, with history, with trends.
(17:44):
And so, you know, you end up listening or engaging with your potential team member and really hearing how they would approach unraveling a challenge.
So we ask about, you know, it could be that we're about to take on a grant and these are the specs.
So how would they consider whether or not it would, you know, mesh with where the organization is or not.
(18:07):
So it could be something that's sort of agency culture or could really be something within the sphere of content that this person is coming in for, if they're coming in for a finance job.
Like asking them to look at some budgets and point out like what do they think the biggest risk areas are or challenge points.
So that's one way we get at it.
(18:29):
The other that I really like is we ask them about failing spectacularly, right?
Because there's joy in that and we want to sort of communicate that that is a healthy and positive experience.
We try to hold that up for all staff, that failure is like this extraordinary opportunity that gives you all this perspective on, you know, what one could do differently the next time.
(18:55):
And there's so much learning there.
And so it's from the get go kind of communicating that we do want to hear about that and give us some, you know, some examples.
But what we're also really looking at or what I'm really looking for is how do they emotionally approach failure?
Do they experience, you know, shame and pain from it?
(19:17):
Or do they see it as an opportunity?
And do they, you know, are they able to kind of rush it off and talk about it with some lightness?
Because that's important.
We all fail.
We have to be able to do that.
Oh, I appreciate the way that you said that.
What is that emotional response?
How do they emotionally engage with that failure?
(19:40):
Because, yes, sometimes people are just, let me explain why it happened versus, oh, yeah, and this is what I'm doing now.
So I'm sure that you've actually had to learn a lot as you scale the organization because this is, Phoebe, you're describing, this is how you like to interview.
What have you learned about trying to help other people do that?
(20:03):
Because I imagine consistency is important in that interview process.
And what have you learned?
And so I'm asking you what mistakes have you made in trying to and learned from when you're trying to make that experience consistent?
Oh, yeah.
I've made a million mistakes.
(20:23):
I've made plenty of them.
Consistent around sort of the hiring and the bringing on.
Yeah, the hiring.
Because it's going so fast and you have a particular way of thinking about it and approaching it.
I mean, I know sometimes, oh, well, people just see how I do it and then pick that up.
No, that is not the case.
(20:44):
I've got to actually express it.
So what about for you as you're going so fast?
Yeah.
I think sort of similar to our earlier conversation about being really explicit about how we do things and process.
It is about ensuring that we are slowing down enough that we are really able to engage with a potential new hire.
(21:11):
And so we have some really good guidances around how we hire, how many times we engage with someone, what are the ways we engage, what are the most important curiosities that we put in front of a potential hire.
So there is, I think, some very healthy standardization around what we do that resonate with our key values.
(21:38):
And then from there, hiring managers are absolutely able to do some flexing.
But I think the idea really of slowing down.
I mean, because sometimes a hire, you always feel like you need someone yesterday.
And so then we have made really poor hiring decisions when that is our guiding value in that moment.
(22:03):
And so just letting people know that staying in the place of curiosity, asking a lot of questions.
If you have questions and you don't feel like they were really answered, like have another call, have a coffee conversation.
Just kind of creating some of those flexibilities as well.
(22:25):
The other thing that we do is we really invite a lot of cross department involvement in hiring.
And so you are getting a lot of different perspectives.
And it forces all of us to really weigh how other people are experiencing your potential candidates.
(22:47):
And it prevents you from kind of backtracking or moving forward.
We have learned so much by someone saying, this really resonated with me in this way.
And based on who they are and what they bring to that interview, that makes a lot of sense.
And so really just being able to hold all of those perspectives.
(23:10):
And in some ways sort of satisfying all the curiosities allows us to land in a more confident place when we are able to make an offer.
I can imagine how those are the lessons you just have to go through, the mistakes you have to make because that lesson of, oh, we hired you back.
You only experience it when we did it and we don't want to do that again.
(23:32):
It's just that pain.
And I can also imagine as you form that, having different departments come together is when you don't do that, there's a department, why did you ask me?
That's a problem.
I should have been involved because how often, especially as your agency grows, it's just more people want to have a voice in that, especially if they're going to be impacted.
(23:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, hiring is so important and we do so much of it.
I think that it's also about making sure that every hiring manager really understands the process, understands the values, ensures that there's cross alignment at all times.
And we talk about what happened when we made really poor decisions around hiring, go back and talk about it and try to unravel those.
(24:23):
So Phoebe, last question.
What is inspiring curiosity for you in your own life?
I'm a big reader and I've actually begun reading even more.
So I troll all the little libraries on my dog walks and I'm an avid public library user now.
(24:43):
So I picked up a book recently by someone whom I read a lot of their stuff.
It's actually called Anxious People by Frederick Bachman.
And there was just a few pages at the very beginning that kind of stopped me in my track.
And in a very simple way, the author was communicating like empathy and love for how hard it is to be like a human and an adult in any given situation, right?
(25:17):
Without even any amplified outside perspective.
And it was just this really beautiful passage about the challenges of being that and what happens if you shift your gaze and perspective to one of empathy and love for individuals that you have no sense of.
(25:44):
And I mean, I understand that.
And I have always known that intellectually and have worked on that.
But it was probably at this moment in time, like a couple of weeks ago when I was reading it.
And it's really stayed with me.
And it's made me think and ask a lot of questions about, what does it take to get to that place of just empathy for each one another?
(26:13):
And I've even been bringing it into some of my team meetings and my leadership meetings, you know, asking staff, like, you know, we can get so frustrated with this person or that person or this entity.
And like, what happens if we shift our perspectives and we think about, you know, just caring about that person because they are doing the best they can in that moment.
(26:38):
And so it's, you know, it's ongoing practice.
And I think that that passage came to me at a time when I needed to be reminded of it.
And it's been sitting with me.
I will have to check that book out and because empathy and curiosity are so linked and we need to be reminded sometimes because it can be, it's really hard to practice that.
(27:01):
Yeah.
Phoebe, thank you so much for being with us today.
How do people get in touch with you?
Especially, and this is actually, since you're hiring so much, you can also, there's anyone you're, any people you're looking for to for Brightspark.
I'm pretty simple.
I am just my last name sade@, well, it's actually childcare.org or you can go to the brightspark.org website and find me.
(27:25):
We are always looking for fantastic talent, people who are very deeply caring about early learning about communities.
We do great work.
And so, you know, I would encourage anyone to reach out to me or to the organization with any curiosities or questions about it.
Phoebe, thank you so much for joining us today on the curiosity at work podcast and listeners continue to practice curiosity in the world.
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hello, welcome to the Curiosity at Work podcast.
(00:25):
I am Julie Bam, and I'm super excited to be here today with Phoebe Thade, a dear friend of mine.
She is the executive officer of BrightSpark Early Learning Services, a nonprofit based here in King County.
And Phoebe has over 25 years of experience working in the social sector, and she's also an executive coach.
(00:49):
Welcome, Phoebe.
Oh, thank you.
So nice to be here.
So, Phoebe, let's start off with, you could just tell us a bit about BrightSpark, how many people there are, how you work, what kind of functions are at BrightSpark.
Sure.
Okay, so we are a pretty big nonprofit.
We're about 145 staff.
(01:13):
We are both landed in King and Pierce counties, and we do some statewide work, and we're a hybrid organization at this point, post-pandemic.
What's interesting about our organization is we're a connector organization.
So we are focused on early learning, but we don't deliver services directly to children.
(01:33):
We support all of the adults in the lives of young people.
So we are coaches and trainers.
We do a lot of work around access to early learning.
We're an organization rooted in anti-racism, so really focusing on who has access and who doesn't.
We raise a lot of funds to create safety nets for families, and we do a lot of advocacy and systems change within the early learning world.
(02:02):
So what I'm hearing is you actually support the people who help the kids.
Because oftentimes, it's just, oh, well, help the kids, no, but the people who help the kids also need support as well.
Yes.
Families, childcare providers, whole communities are wrapped around children.
And so our role is to partner with and really support and uplift all of those folks.
(02:26):
And it sounds like that that would require thinking short-term for the immediate needs of the kids and also long-term as well, because you said that you also do policy and advocacy work.
So with that, it sounds like there could be a lot of challenges.
A lot of times, people talk about the importance of curiosity, and we like to ask our guests, well, what about when is it hard for you to practice curiosity?
(02:51):
We've talked about all the times we like to do it, but what makes it hard for you to practice in your workplace?
This makes me think about the last few years.
I moved into the executive officer role right before the pandemic.
And for years before that, I had been supporting all of our program work.
(03:11):
And so we have seen so much growth and change, the pandemic.
And then as a result, we grew a lot, we stretched some of our service delivery, and we absolutely morphed to the needs of our communities.
And we saw, like many other nonprofits, a lot of shifts in staff, a lot of turnover.
People's lives were so dramatically impacted from the pandemic.
(03:35):
It's just so interesting to think about as a leader, like what's happening within the organization, because we can't do any of our good missional work unless our staff are deeply engaged and feeling really supported.
And what I've noticed over the last couple of years is more and more instances of newer staff having frustrations with how communication was being handled, decision making, feelings of sort of inclusion in the organization.
(04:04):
And that forced me as a leader, and then me with all of our leadership teams to really think about like, what is going on?
What's happening?
What's the experience of newer staff versus seasoned staff?
And there were a lot of trial and errors, like let's work on the supervisory bandwidth.
Let's ensure that staff are feeling more supported by their supervisors and strengthening accountability and communication and feedback.
(04:31):
And one of the most startling pieces of evidence in all of this is our demographic data.
And just recently looked at it again, and 28% of our organization has come in in the last year and 40% in the last two years.
And we are, as I said, 145 strong.
(04:52):
But for many, many years, we were a small, like 25, 30 person organization.
And what that made me realize and be curious about is like, how is information passed on in this organization?
I think for so long, norms and practices and protocols were orally shared.
(05:13):
I mean, they were written somewhere, but they were more often just, you know, this is how we do this, or this is why we do this.
And what it has shown me, which is surprising, is we have to be really explicit and direct and clear, and we have to document and write everything down now.
We can't assume that people will interpret how we expect folks to, you know, work through our organization.
(05:41):
And so, you know, for an organization that's focusing on anti-racism, documenting is very white-dominant culture.
But access to information in an equitable way is so critical that we are working to find the balance.
And I just, you know, I don't know that I would have thought that shifting into that place of like explicit and documented practices would be a really valid solution for an organization like ours.
(06:13):
And, you know, I think that that's just something that's been kind of wild to learn and to move into.
Phoebe, how long have you been at BrightSpark?
12 or 13 years.
And so when you started, how many people were there?
When I walked in the door, there were about 35.
So you went from 35 to 145 people.
(06:35):
And you're saying 40 percent of that is in the last two years.
And so I can really see how that would challenge your curiosity, because you've been there for so long and for so long it worked well.
Yes.
And, you know, I had my own assumptions about how we how we did our work and it was kind of blew everything up.
And of those people who are new to the organization, how many are also just new to the workplace and the workforce?
(07:02):
Because that's another layer, too, because this is also their first experience.
And then I can imagine that's challenging as well.
It is a much younger workforce than we have had historically.
And that's another data point that I think begs us to be curious about, like, do our benefits still resonate with a with a very different demographic?
(07:25):
And so I think that's an example.
But there's a lot of places where we now need to kind of like rethink things and just be open to very different perspectives and very different values around around all of it.
Phoebe, I know that I have been well, it worked for me.
I don't understand why it doesn't work for you.
Just sometimes.
Wait a minute.
And I like what you said about the having certain values.
(07:48):
And yet sometimes those values can conflict.
And so actually, we then have to think about what to prioritize as well.
And in this case, what I'm hearing you say is that prioritizing of the documentation, which can actually be also about as you scale to.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So what about what is something that you do with, especially with such a growing workforce?
(08:11):
What do you do to help help people practice curiosity in the workplace?
You know, we're an interesting organization because we are also predominantly government funded.
And and I think that that's interesting because we have very longstanding contracts.
(08:32):
They tend to be prescriptive.
And, you know, year over year, they don't change dramatically.
And I think that the container of our work doesn't always.
Inspire creativity and curiosity.
So I actually think that when we hit that place where the revenue doesn't match the proposed deliverables anymore, which can happen if you have a multiyear contract and like an increase is not sort of built in year to year.
(09:03):
You get to this place where our funder expects the same level of service but the funding isn't matching that.
And we have an example of that right now.
One of our biggest programs.
And, you know, in the social services and especially in early learning, we're talking about children.
And so we always try to make it work like we can make it work.
And, you know, the the intense downside of that is that the burden falls on staff.
(09:30):
And that's just that is not fair and it's not aligned with our values.
And so, you know, very recently I said to the program leader, I need you and I invite you into a space of curiosity.
I need you to rethink how we deliver services, knowing that the revenue has changed.
(09:50):
Like, like, don't try to do more than what we are truly being funded to do.
And so I think sometimes it is both that invitation to be really curious, but also permission.
And as much as I don't like that, I think that, you know, people come people come to work with all sorts of experiences with other organizations or companies, and sometimes they feel like they don't have the authority to be curious.
(10:20):
And I think I think it's really important to be explicit that curiosity is is expected and invited.
And when you have a situation that really like involves a big rethink, really like like explicitly asking people, I want you to be curious.
I want you to poke and prod at all the places that you have the ability to, you know, think about making change.
(10:44):
And then a part of that too, and this is, you know, specific to the example I'm using, is me saying, and I will take that and advocate for you.
Like, I will go and be the voice with funder to fight for what you have created, you and your team have created with curiosity and creativity.
So, Phoebe, could you give a example of, okay, you're telling your team this is our envelope.
(11:10):
And I also don't want you to burn out.
And so what did they come back with as, okay, we're going to do this a little differently because this still works within the budget.
And we're not going to burn out.
And they also feel empowered because you've invited them to be part of that solution too.
So what's an example of that?
(11:30):
You know what?
They came back with some really bold thinking.
And what I love about it, and I'll talk about their process because I think the process is great, this is a team of probably 70 staff in this team.
And so the program leaders very intentionally and thoughtfully got staff together in different venues and different small groups and big groups and just invited as much thinking as possible, like pushing against perceived boundaries that we have always worked under, and really invited a lot of curiosity.
(12:05):
What would it look like if we didn't always do it like this?
What would it look like if we created new ways of delivering this service?
And what they came back with is a really bold proposition of honoring staff, their workload, and their lives, not jeopardizing that, but also really creatively serving our community.
(12:34):
And it looks very different than we've done it in the past.
So could you be specific though?
Can you help the listener imagine just one example of what did you, so it wasn't just about cutting, it was about doing something different.
Yeah.
So we deliver coaching services.
And we traditionally deliver them in a one-to-one model.
(12:55):
So that is incredibly valuable, the idea of peer coaching, the idea of walking alongside a childcare provider who needs support and around quality improvement.
And the model wasn't sustainable as we could not fund the staff to match the need of providers.
(13:17):
And so what they came back with was some really ingenious ways of saying we could do group experiences, we could do more remote experiences with those who seem maybe less engaged or less excited about more one-to-one.
And just looking at sort of what had always been the expectations and saying there are other ways to meet this and there are ways to our staff will not feel like they are unable to meet the responsibilities of the role.
(13:50):
So just rethinking the model, which I thought was great.
That's such a great and clear example.
I find that especially in the nonprofit space and social sector, it's, hey, there's such a focus on why it matters.
We need to get people this coaching.
We need to give them this.
And yet you can change how it's delivered.
If you are willing to walk away or reimagine that, it reminds me of one of my favorite examples of how Impressionism came to be.
(14:18):
And it's the Monet and Renoir were just, oh, we don't have black paint right now.
And so they started using violet.
And that became the darkest color.
And that's when you look at Impressionist painting, it's so much lighter because it doesn't have black.
And so I really think that constraints can get people to be more curious and to be more creative.
(14:42):
And, yeah, it's one of my favorite examples of constraints.
And listeners, I also just want to clarify and explain something that Phoebe had shared, which is a lot of people, there are those nonprofits that are, she said, that are largely funded by government.
And so even though it's not government, that means that they still have a lot of the constraints and regulations of government.
(15:08):
And yet within a nonprofit structure, there's also still that creativity.
And for those of you who don't know this, it can be really hard for nonprofits when they are getting these government contracts and inflation happens and things happen.
And yet that's what's locked into place.
And taxpayers say, well, we don't want to pay more because this is what we budgeted.
And yet the economy changes.
(15:30):
So just something to keep in mind as you think about, well, and you hear in the news, well, these social services, they are changing, these social service agencies are changing how they use their, provide the services.
And that's because the situation changes.
So thank you for sharing that, Phoebe.
(15:50):
Now, with such a growing, I mean, 40%, wow, in the last two years, and you've really had to scale, and also this is a relatively new role for you as well.
How do you look for curiosity?
How do you look for people who are going to appreciate those constraints and the opportunity in them?
(16:14):
What is, and so very specifically, what's an interview question or recruiting tactic that you like to share and that also that you're sharing with your team so that they're doing it throughout the organization?
No, that's a great question.
It's one that we have been working on quite a bit.
Quite a lot, as we have done a lot of hiring.
(16:35):
But as I'm bringing on a team member, particularly a team member in leadership who I really want to lead by example, so what are they bringing to the organization, I do find that scenario breakdown questions are really exciting.
So I don't expect someone to have the context of a question.
(16:56):
So I will, within usually the second interview, ask them to work on a challenge that we ourselves have worked on or maybe are in the middle of working on.
And I let them know that it's less about like, you know, knowing what the acronyms are or what the context in early learning is.
It's really more about I want to hear how you think about things.
(17:19):
And so, you know, we ask them to sort of unpack a challenge, how they might approach it.
And what I think is important is we also say, and bring us any questions that would help you get to the next step, because I love to hear what questions they're either asking themselves or they know they need to be curious about with others, with teams, with history, with trends.
(17:44):
And so, you know, you end up listening or engaging with your potential team member and really hearing how they would approach unraveling a challenge.
So we ask about, you know, it could be that we're about to take on a grant and these are the specs.
So how would they consider whether or not it would, you know, mesh with where the organization is or not.
(18:07):
So it could be something that's sort of agency culture or could really be something within the sphere of content that this person is coming in for, if they're coming in for a finance job.
Like asking them to look at some budgets and point out like what do they think the biggest risk areas are or challenge points.
So that's one way we get at it.
(18:29):
The other that I really like is we ask them about failing spectacularly, right?
Because there's joy in that and we want to sort of communicate that that is a healthy and positive experience.
We try to hold that up for all staff, that failure is like this extraordinary opportunity that gives you all this perspective on, you know, what one could do differently the next time.
(18:55):
And there's so much learning there.
And so it's from the get go kind of communicating that we do want to hear about that and give us some, you know, some examples.
But what we're also really looking at or what I'm really looking for is how do they emotionally approach failure?
Do they experience, you know, shame and pain from it?
(19:17):
Or do they see it as an opportunity?
And do they, you know, are they able to kind of rush it off and talk about it with some lightness?
Because that's important.
We all fail.
We have to be able to do that.
Oh, I appreciate the way that you said that.
What is that emotional response?
How do they emotionally engage with that failure?
(19:40):
Because, yes, sometimes people are just, let me explain why it happened versus, oh, yeah, and this is what I'm doing now.
So I'm sure that you've actually had to learn a lot as you scale the organization because this is, Phoebe, you're describing, this is how you like to interview.
What have you learned about trying to help other people do that?
(20:03):
Because I imagine consistency is important in that interview process.
And what have you learned?
And so I'm asking you what mistakes have you made in trying to and learned from when you're trying to make that experience consistent?
Oh, yeah.
I've made a million mistakes.
(20:23):
I've made plenty of them.
Consistent around sort of the hiring and the bringing on.
Yeah, the hiring.
Because it's going so fast and you have a particular way of thinking about it and approaching it.
I mean, I know sometimes, oh, well, people just see how I do it and then pick that up.
No, that is not the case.
(20:44):
I've got to actually express it.
So what about for you as you're going so fast?
Yeah.
I think sort of similar to our earlier conversation about being really explicit about how we do things and process.
It is about ensuring that we are slowing down enough that we are really able to engage with a potential new hire.
(21:11):
And so we have some really good guidances around how we hire, how many times we engage with someone, what are the ways we engage, what are the most important curiosities that we put in front of a potential hire.
So there is, I think, some very healthy standardization around what we do that resonate with our key values.
(21:38):
And then from there, hiring managers are absolutely able to do some flexing.
But I think the idea really of slowing down.
I mean, because sometimes a hire, you always feel like you need someone yesterday.
And so then we have made really poor hiring decisions when that is our guiding value in that moment.
(22:03):
And so just letting people know that staying in the place of curiosity, asking a lot of questions.
If you have questions and you don't feel like they were really answered, like have another call, have a coffee conversation.
Just kind of creating some of those flexibilities as well.
(22:25):
The other thing that we do is we really invite a lot of cross department involvement in hiring.
And so you are getting a lot of different perspectives.
And it forces all of us to really weigh how other people are experiencing your potential candidates.
(22:47):
And it prevents you from kind of backtracking or moving forward.
We have learned so much by someone saying, this really resonated with me in this way.
And based on who they are and what they bring to that interview, that makes a lot of sense.
And so really just being able to hold all of those perspectives.
(23:10):
And in some ways sort of satisfying all the curiosities allows us to land in a more confident place when we are able to make an offer.
I can imagine how those are the lessons you just have to go through, the mistakes you have to make because that lesson of, oh, we hired you back.
You only experience it when we did it and we don't want to do that again.
(23:32):
It's just that pain.
And I can also imagine as you form that, having different departments come together is when you don't do that, there's a department, why did you ask me?
That's a problem.
I should have been involved because how often, especially as your agency grows, it's just more people want to have a voice in that, especially if they're going to be impacted.
(23:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, hiring is so important and we do so much of it.
I think that it's also about making sure that every hiring manager really understands the process, understands the values, ensures that there's cross alignment at all times.
And we talk about what happened when we made really poor decisions around hiring, go back and talk about it and try to unravel those.
(24:23):
So Phoebe, last question.
What is inspiring curiosity for you in your own life?
I'm a big reader and I've actually begun reading even more.
So I troll all the little libraries on my dog walks and I'm an avid public library user now.
(24:43):
So I picked up a book recently by someone whom I read a lot of their stuff.
It's actually called Anxious People by Frederick Bachman.
And there was just a few pages at the very beginning that kind of stopped me in my track.
And in a very simple way, the author was communicating like empathy and love for how hard it is to be like a human and an adult in any given situation, right?
(25:17):
Without even any amplified outside perspective.
And it was just this really beautiful passage about the challenges of being that and what happens if you shift your gaze and perspective to one of empathy and love for individuals that you have no sense of.
(25:44):
And I mean, I understand that.
And I have always known that intellectually and have worked on that.
But it was probably at this moment in time, like a couple of weeks ago when I was reading it.
And it's really stayed with me.
And it's made me think and ask a lot of questions about, what does it take to get to that place of just empathy for each one another?
(26:13):
And I've even been bringing it into some of my team meetings and my leadership meetings, you know, asking staff, like, you know, we can get so frustrated with this person or that person or this entity.
And like, what happens if we shift our perspectives and we think about, you know, just caring about that person because they are doing the best they can in that moment.
(26:38):
And so it's, you know, it's ongoing practice.
And I think that that passage came to me at a time when I needed to be reminded of it.
And it's been sitting with me.
I will have to check that book out and because empathy and curiosity are so linked and we need to be reminded sometimes because it can be, it's really hard to practice that.
(27:01):
Yeah.
Phoebe, thank you so much for being with us today.
How do people get in touch with you?
Especially, and this is actually, since you're hiring so much, you can also, there's anyone you're, any people you're looking for to for Brightspark.
I'm pretty simple.
I am just my last name sade@, well, it's actually childcare.org or you can go to the brightspark.org website and find me.
(27:25):
We are always looking for fantastic talent, people who are very deeply caring about early learning about communities.
We do great work.
And so, you know, I would encourage anyone to reach out to me or to the organization with any curiosities or questions about it.
Phoebe, thank you so much for joining us today on the curiosity at work podcast and listeners continue to practice curiosity in the world.
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