January 6, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode of Curiosity at Work, Dr. Julie Pham interviews Rachel Suman, Chief Experience Officer at the International Association of Administrative Professionals (IAAP). Rachel shares her journey from administrative professional to executive leader and offers insights on empowering administrative professionals to become strategic partners in their organizations. She highlights the power of curiosity in leadership, fostering feedback-driven growth, and the importance of creating safe spaces for learning and self-reflection. Tune in for practical tips on cultivating leadership, continuous learning, and growth for administrative professionals.
Connect with Dr. Julie Pham:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliepham2/
- Website: https://curiositybased.com/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/juliephamphd/
Connect with Rachel Suman:
- Website: https://www.iaap-hq.org/
#RachelSuman #IAAP #CuriosityAtWork #AdministrativeProfessionals #Leadership #FeedbackCulture #ContinuousLearning #WorkplaceCulture #CareerGrowth #EmployeeEmpowerment
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hello, welcome.
(00:25):
I'm Julie Pham with the Curiosity at Work podcast, and today I get to interview Rachel Suman, who is the chief experience officer at the International Association of Administrative Professionals.
Welcome, Rachel.
Thank you, Julie.
It is my honor to be here.
I'm so excited.
(00:45):
So I got to meet Rachel this past summer because I got to speak at the big IAAP summit, and that was one of my favorite speaking experiences.
There was so much energy in the room, a thousand people from all over the world in New York City, and I just have so much admiration for what IAAP does.
(01:07):
So can you explain first, what is an administrative professional?
And then also IAAP, what does your organization do?
How many people work on the team to serve so many members?
I love these questions.
Thank you so much.
And thank you for the shout out for our summit.
It is absolutely one of our favorite events of the year, so I love hearing that feedback.
(01:30):
So an administrative professional, this is a really tricky question, Julie, because honestly, whenever we've done any type of survey data collection, there are over a hundred titles that people identify as their title within the administrative profession.
So we really boil it down to the roles, the tasks rather, and the duties that encompass that role.
(01:54):
So if it is administrative in nature, so that can look like a receptionist role, that can look like an executive assistant to a CEO at a Fortune 500 company, that can look like supporting a single person, that can look like supporting a department.
So we really look at it as more of a supportive role as completing administrative functions within the organization.
(02:22):
So that's not really a concise definition.
And I think that's really intentional because it is such a broad, varied role within every single industry in the planet, basically.
So it's tough to define, but it's kind of those, you know it when you see it type roles.
Wow, over a hundred different titles?
(02:44):
Over a hundred.
And I'm sure that's grown since we've done that.
It really is.
They keep getting very creative, which is great.
And at the end of the day, what we do and the value we bring matters more than the title.
So it gets a little sticky when we're talking about it, but as an organization, so IAAP, I-A-A-P, or the International Association of Administrative Professionals, we have multiple, multiple names, started in 1942.
(03:13):
And we really have evolved quite a bit.
I mean, if you think back to the role in 1942 and picture, you know, the TV shows and all of the house secretaries have shown up in that space to where they are now and really a strategic business partnership with organizations and bring a unique voice there.
(03:35):
We really have strived to be, and I think are at the forefront of leading that profession and ensuring that not only are we as administrative professionals prepared for that, but organizations are prepared to really expand and take advantage, if you'll excuse the expression, of what admins can bring to their organization.
(03:57):
And so how many members are there across how many countries and how big is the staff that serves them?
We actually, so membership is definitely an important part.
We have a pretty broad community who interacts with us.
So you can be a member and we highly recommend it.
Obviously, we've got around 7,000 members from, gosh, I don't know how many countries, at least 15.
(04:21):
I'm going to misquote it.
So I'm not even going to try and quote it, but it's, it's a lot of countries.
And, but community-wide, we probably have 60, 70, 80,000 people who have interacted with us or interact with us in some way.
And our staff is 15 right now.
(04:42):
We have a couple of positions that we are filling.
So by the end of the year, knock on something, we will have 17, but that is the size of the staff that supports this amazing profession and this amazing community.
So Rachel, you've been there since 2013 and you actually started as an administrative professional.
(05:02):
And then you, then you now have been since promoted to chief experience officer.
And before that you spent a couple of decades as an administrative professional yourself.
So, so you actually have the direct experience of your members.
I do.
Yeah.
So yes, I'm celebrating 12 years next month, actually with the organization and much like a lot of people when I joined the organization, I had no idea what IAAP was.
(05:31):
I had never heard of them, even though I had been in the profession for as long as I had.
And we hear that far too often.
That's something we're, we're trying to overcome and figure out how to spread the word more so, but yeah, it, it really, you know, I've always loved the profession in general and then joining the organization and getting to see what we do and who we serve.
(05:54):
I joined as an administrative professional in the conferences and professional development department.
And so throughout my tenure, I've served in various roles, but always tied to the programs, the services, kind of who we are, what we do and how we share that with the world.
That is such a passion of mine.
Like I, I'm sometimes I can't believe I get to do this for a job and get paid for it because it really is.
(06:19):
I mean, you mentioned it at the beginning, but this profession touches every single industry, every single organization in some way, like there are very few roles on this planet that can say that.
And so it comes with challenges, of course, like meeting the needs of that many industries, that many organizations, that wide variety of tasks and roles and responsibilities can definitely be a challenge, but it's also really exciting.
(06:47):
That's why I hear from our community and they're like, this is why I love being an admin professional because no day looks the same.
No, they, you know, you are transferable within industries.
It's, it's pretty incredible.
I remember when I opened up my talk at the summit, I said, I'm so excited about speaking to this room because you are all such powerful people.
(07:12):
And I know a lot of times the administrative professionals, they don't get the respect that they, they deserve because of the title.
And yet it's the CEOs, it's the executives who are actually trusting them and who are turning to them for advice.
And so it's such a privilege to get to, to speak to that, to your members and to your community.
(07:32):
And one of the reasons why I really wanted to have you on this podcast is because I think a lot of people, they're administrative professionals are misunderstood.
They, they, they're so behind the scenes and there are lots of different job titles for them.
So I wanted that for you to kind of clarify that, demystify that.
And also you are a association, a member association as well, which means you have a lot of bosses actually too.
(07:59):
And I know that you have that membership, both individual and organization.
And what are the, that's a special kind of nonprofit when you are a member association.
So I'm excited for the listeners to learn about how curiosity exists in, for administrative professionals and for a membership association.
So let's get started.
(08:21):
Rachel, we talk about curiosity as a practice on this podcast, and sometimes it's just not, it's hard to do.
And so can you share, when has it been, when do you find it personally difficult for you to practice curiosity at work?
I think where, where I really struggle with practicing curiosity is our team.
(08:44):
I mentioned we are 15 soon to be 17 and we are hybrid and remote.
So most of the time we are not in the same space.
It's very rare that we are in the same space.
And so we are really relying on technology to kind of fill in those gaps and connect and do the work.
And sometimes when I struggle is when you don't get to hear the context, right?
(09:08):
Like you don't get to read the body language.
You don't get to really kind of fill in those communication gaps, if you will, of how people are responding or sending a message or whatever.
And so sometimes all I have is one line in a team's message.
And so, you know, we all look at those with our own lens, right?
(09:30):
And so if my lens is not showing, if it's a little foggy that day and my lens is not showing up well, I really can struggle with curiosity.
And I start to create a narrative that I don't know is true, but I'm leaning into it and start to kind of spiral in that way.
So that really can be tricky in a remote, at least for me, in a remote organization is figuring out how to still communicate with each other in a way that does empower curiosity while, you know, not having the luxury of 93% of communication with each other.
(10:10):
And I know a lot of organizations, regardless of the industry that you're in, they struggle with that.
What about as a administrative professional then?
What is a struggle there?
When do you find it typical for you when you were an administrative professional or for maybe for members that you've heard, Hey, it's really difficult for me to practice curiosity right now.
(10:34):
I mean, sometimes it's just, you get those requests from the executives and just, Oh, what is this?
Or I don't know if you could share.
And this is a very broad brush that I'm about to paint with.
I'm certain that there are those in our community who deal with it differently, but I think the part of what you were talking about with the lack of value or the lack of recognition for the profession is oftentimes administrative professionals are receiving tasks or information or whatever it is without the full context.
(11:08):
So they're only getting a piece of it.
And honestly, they, they are sometimes tasked with filling in those blanks without the answers to the question.
So if you, I think that can be really tricky to go into that with curiosity and not kind of, again, create that narrative.
That's like, Oh, well, I only got this much because that means they think this or, you know, kind of fill in that blank.
(11:30):
And so really leaning into that curiosity space when you don't have the context, but when you need the context is a really fine balancing act, I think to find yourself in.
And so it's, I think it needs to be really important to keep that curiosity lens and ask those questions and use the voice to speak up.
(11:51):
You know, oftentimes our community either don't feel like, or don't actually have a voice in a lot of those spaces.
And so that's also another piece that can really, I think, be a barrier to curiosity is curiosity is all about questions, right?
And if you can't actually ask the question, then you're kind of stuck in a lot of ways.
(12:12):
And so figuring out how to, to ask those questions, to get the context and pieces that you need have to be part of that solve.
So what I'm also hearing there is it can be, it can be difficult to practice curiosity when you don't feel that you have the voice and then how do, how does the organization help ensure that people do encourage asking questions and that it doesn't, that the questions don't feel like they're a challenge to authority.
(12:42):
It's just, no, I actually need this to be able to do my job.
Yeah, exactly.
It's stripping the defensiveness away, right?
And the questions and just saying, Hey, I need this information.
I have zero judgment in it, but I need this information to fill in this context.
Do administrative professionals sometimes feel they have to be mind readers?
(13:03):
Oh my goodness.
Every admin listening to this right now.
I laughed for y'all because yes, a hundred percent of that, that is on the regular.
I am very fortunate to have an administrative assistant who supports me.
And I'm certain that he is going to be laughing really hard when he hears this because yes, I'm like, Oh yeah, you, I told you that, right?
(13:24):
You know that.
So yes, mind reading is a requirement.
So what about, what about ways of that?
What are some examples of how you help practice, foster practice and curiosity in your organization?
And then how people can also do it with their, with their administrative staff?
(13:48):
We, as an organization are really focused on enhancing leadership competencies.
We, it is part of our DNA.
It is who we are and firmly believe that everybody has the opportunity and the responsibility, honestly, to be a leader.
And I don't believe you can practice leadership without curiosity.
(14:08):
Like those are, those are hand in hand, one in the same.
And so that is just baked into our culture as a team is that we are all showing up as leaders.
And part of that is really assuming good intent and, you know, leaning into that curiosity.
I read in Reality-Based Leadership, I'm going to do a little shout out for this book because I really like it.
(14:30):
Cy Wakeman talks about if you are going to tell a narrative, make it the most positive story you can.
So often we create that narrative and we, you know, if we're not going to be curious, at least we're going to be positively not curious.
And then go from there instead of going from the most negative experience possible.
So that really is, that is part of our culture as a team, as a staff with IAAP is ensuring that we are not only assuming good intent, but also we have a very strong culture of feedback, which I believe is also very essential in curiosity.
(15:08):
And even being curious in that feedback and empowering everyone to give each other feedback, including feedback up.
Myself, our CEO, Melissa Mahoney, we are huge proponents of feedback for that reason.
And I think some people don't see that as, you know, kind of hand in hand, but I think it is like feedback and curiosity has to go together, even if it's within yourself.
(15:36):
Right?
So that's really the culture that we are creating to ensure that everybody has the opportunity to ask each other those questions, to say, hey, this may have hit me in a certain way.
Can we talk through it?
Or, hey, this was my experience and I need you to know that.
And how do we move through it to get to a productive working space together?
(15:58):
And curiosity, I think, is at the foundation of all of that.
How do you operationalize it though?
Because I think it's one thing, oh, please give me feedback, especially for people who feel that they have less power.
How do you actually operationalize that?
We are still trying to figure out how to make that work.
(16:18):
We just hosted an all team time the end of last month together, and we had a whole training session, all of us together in the same room that we were talking about feedback.
And we made it very clear, like, this is not theoretical.
This is not, hey, this would be nice.
This is an expectation.
So next step, we are actually working on creating some feedback kind of journals that everybody can have.
(16:47):
So they're actually tracking, like, okay, this is conversations that I need to have.
Or even, you know, we talked about this as a team, like, sometimes something kind of rubs you in a certain way, and that's yours to explore.
So even ensuring that self-awareness is part of that journey, kind of a journal tracking all of that.
And then if you do need to have a feedback conversation, it's going to have some, you know, sections that's like, this is what I want to talk about.
(17:13):
This is how it went.
This is how I can show up differently next time.
This went well.
This didn't go well.
So that we can look back on those and really ensure that we are continually growing in that space.
Because it's not a one and done, right?
It's not like, well, feedback, we're done.
It's a constant journey.
Rachel, I really appreciate the suggestion of having a journal.
(17:35):
Because one of the things we do at Curiosity Base, we actually help people, how do you give feedback and receive feedback with curiosity?
And one of the big pushbacks we get from people is like, I can't remember.
It happened so long ago.
And maybe that's just, oh, I was so angry at the time.
But now it's not a big deal.
So I'm going to move on.
And yeah, if you actually give people a journal, hey, write down that thing that kind of rubbed you the wrong way, and then you can revisit it.
(18:00):
And also practicing that in word curiosity, that self-reflection, it allows people to be specific.
Yeah, and accountable to it, right?
Yeah, yeah.
So because you can write down something and she's, oh, wait a minute, and then read it a week later.
Am I still bothered?
Yes.
But I can also approach it this way.
(18:20):
And then what you were saying about the, try to imagine at least the most positive version of the story that's possible.
It just reminds me of an old boss I had where I was just amazed by some of the crazy, mean stories he had about other people and what he assumed was happening.
And then I realized, oh, you imagine that because maybe you would do that yourself.
(18:45):
Imagine more about him.
I loved that in that book so much, honestly, because she talked about that.
She's like, she would tell her team.
She's like, if you're going to imagine a story, you have to imagine.
I think the example she said was, you got information from sales in the shipping department and it was missing all of these pieces.
And instead of saying, sales hates me, we're the worst, they never do this right, blah, blah, blah.
(19:10):
You switch and you're like, gosh, somebody was having a really bad day and they missed having all of this.
And thank goodness it came to me because I can fill in these pieces.
And just the lens, I loved that example because I'm like, yes, our brains are not wired to go positive.
They're wired to go negative.
So even flipping that changes the whole dynamic.
(19:31):
So I loved that.
Yeah, it makes me think a little bit about the inner critic too, but that's a separate thing I'd like to know.
If you've got administrative professional, maybe a team of administrative professionals in your organization, how can you help foster curiosity?
What tips would you give to someone who's managing administrative professionals to help them practice curiosity?
(19:54):
I truly believe that curiosity has to come in safe spaces.
And I don't think safe is a one and done, this is the definition of safe.
So I think every organization needs to determine what that looks like.
But if you are an organization who does not foster questions, who if somebody asks questions, they may be reprimanded for it, penalized for it, that's obviously not a great space to curate curiosity.
(20:25):
So I think ensuring as an organization that you have the space to say, we can only grow from curiosity, right?
Like we have to hear those perspectives.
And then I think giving, I really love, I had, I was thinking through some resources and I really love having kind of a list of maybe five questions that everyone can ask themselves if they find themselves in kind of those doom spiral narrative, storytelling spirals, we all do it, right?
(20:56):
Like having those questions that we encourage that can say, we're going to stop this, we're going to redirect it and encourage if you have a team of administrative professionals or a team in general, encourage each other to help stop that doom spiral.
We do that in our team a lot, like somebody will come and it might start as venting and it's like, well, have we thought about this perspective?
(21:20):
Or it's possible that this is the angle that they're coming from.
And have we thought about that?
And how would that change how we're handling this situation or how we're communicating with this community member, whatever it is, that list of questions that you can either stop and ask yourself or empower team members to ask each other to do, I think is game changing and cost nothing is super simple, but it changes the game immediately.
(21:45):
Yes.
And then it gives them that structure.
Ask these five questions, not just get a different perspective.
It's just, no, just go through these five questions.
Yes.
So Rachel, I want to ask, how do you identify and recruit for curiosity?
And in particular here, if someone is interviewing for an administrative professional role on their team, what tips would you give them to ask or to look for curiosity in that candidate?
(22:20):
I think there's really a lot of spaces and ways to do this.
I think the one that comes immediately to mind is anytime you can go scenario based, I think you're going to get more specific and maybe more, dare I say, honest responses than if you're asking theoretically.
So if you can have a scenario and I'm a big proponent of everybody processes differently.
(22:48):
So if there's even a way to create that scenario and if they can go away and work on that scenario and bring it to an interview, or can they do a written response versus a audio response, whatever that looks like to ensure that you are getting to the root of how people are feeling because communication, so much can be lost in communication, right?
(23:11):
So anything we can do to kind of break down those barriers and create real life scenarios in your team that might have happened that you can see, does somebody approach something from a state of judgment or would they approach something from a state of curiosity?
Could you give an example of a scenario that would be a kind of good common one to ask for an administrative professional role?
(23:36):
Um, yes, I was, I was actually just going to quote the reality based leadership book again.
I don't get any money for it.
I just read it and loved it.
But, um, she had a really great example and I could probably come up with a, another one.
Um, but she had a really good one where there was a colleague that was late, like four times in a row and was not putting the information correctly on her time sheet.
(24:02):
And so she had another, uh, one of her top performers, she said, came to her and was telling her about this situation.
And she stopped her and said, you had a colleague that was late four times this week.
What did you do to help?
And it just stopped them in their tracks.
And as it turned out, it, it had created, like, it was this whole, this whole like spy setup where they were spending so much time, like trying to catch this person in the act rather than stopping and saying, how can I clearly something is going on?
(24:33):
How can we support?
So, you know, even something as simple as that, where it's like, you have a colleague that is, you know, missing deadlines or is not showing up on time, or you have a, uh, an executive who you're supporting, who maybe is not giving you information that you need in a timely fashion.
How would you handle that?
(24:55):
How would you respond?
We've all been in those situations and, you know, whether you are completely honest or not, like the answer probably is here's how I need to support rather than here's what I would assume and spiral out in judgment on.
Yes.
I can imagine a common scenario that administrative professional would, would encounter is those not getting the answers to the questions or the late deadlines, and then all the stories that could come up that we make up.
(25:28):
And so posing that as a scenario and seeing how they would react to that would then help you understand how they're practicing curiosity.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Not, not filling in the answers, but, but pausing and getting the actual answers instead of making up our own.
Mm-hmm.
So Rachel, last question for you, which is what is inspiring curiosity in your own life right now?
(25:56):
This is going to sound super simple, but it's true.
Deep breathing is inspiring curiosity in my life right now.
It's a very hectic time of year.
There's a lot happening.
There's a lot in, in our association, January is really when things very much gear up.
(26:18):
So we're kind of putting some pieces together before that happens home.
Like everything is just stressful right now.
And so the pause and the deep breath, it is absolutely amazing when I actually stop and do that, how much comes up for me and how much I'm able to, to almost a very dear friend of mine who is my personal coach equates it to stocking groceries on a shelf.
(26:43):
Like when things look like a pile and then when you can stop and reflect and deep breathe, it just all fits into place.
Oh, that's such a good answer.
I've never thought about that.
It's so easy to do actually, and we can do it anywhere.
Just taking time to take a deep breath.
I was like, it feels too simple.
Well, Rachel, thank you so much for joining us today on the curiosity at work podcast.
(27:08):
I just want to thank you for all of your insights on administrative professionals as a profession, and also on what it's like to run a membership based association too.
It was so my pleasure.
Thank you so much for having me.
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hello, welcome.
(00:25):
I'm Julie Pham with the Curiosity at Work podcast, and today I get to interview Rachel Suman, who is the chief experience officer at the International Association of Administrative Professionals.
Welcome, Rachel.
Thank you, Julie.
It is my honor to be here.
I'm so excited.
(00:45):
So I got to meet Rachel this past summer because I got to speak at the big IAAP summit, and that was one of my favorite speaking experiences.
There was so much energy in the room, a thousand people from all over the world in New York City, and I just have so much admiration for what IAAP does.
(01:07):
So can you explain first, what is an administrative professional?
And then also IAAP, what does your organization do?
How many people work on the team to serve so many members?
I love these questions.
Thank you so much.
And thank you for the shout out for our summit.
It is absolutely one of our favorite events of the year, so I love hearing that feedback.
(01:30):
So an administrative professional, this is a really tricky question, Julie, because honestly, whenever we've done any type of survey data collection, there are over a hundred titles that people identify as their title within the administrative profession.
So we really boil it down to the roles, the tasks rather, and the duties that encompass that role.
(01:54):
So if it is administrative in nature, so that can look like a receptionist role, that can look like an executive assistant to a CEO at a Fortune 500 company, that can look like supporting a single person, that can look like supporting a department.
So we really look at it as more of a supportive role as completing administrative functions within the organization.
(02:22):
So that's not really a concise definition.
And I think that's really intentional because it is such a broad, varied role within every single industry in the planet, basically.
So it's tough to define, but it's kind of those, you know it when you see it type roles.
Wow, over a hundred different titles?
(02:44):
Over a hundred.
And I'm sure that's grown since we've done that.
It really is.
They keep getting very creative, which is great.
And at the end of the day, what we do and the value we bring matters more than the title.
So it gets a little sticky when we're talking about it, but as an organization, so IAAP, I-A-A-P, or the International Association of Administrative Professionals, we have multiple, multiple names, started in 1942.
(03:13):
And we really have evolved quite a bit.
I mean, if you think back to the role in 1942 and picture, you know, the TV shows and all of the house secretaries have shown up in that space to where they are now and really a strategic business partnership with organizations and bring a unique voice there.
(03:35):
We really have strived to be, and I think are at the forefront of leading that profession and ensuring that not only are we as administrative professionals prepared for that, but organizations are prepared to really expand and take advantage, if you'll excuse the expression, of what admins can bring to their organization.
(03:57):
And so how many members are there across how many countries and how big is the staff that serves them?
We actually, so membership is definitely an important part.
We have a pretty broad community who interacts with us.
So you can be a member and we highly recommend it.
Obviously, we've got around 7,000 members from, gosh, I don't know how many countries, at least 15.
(04:21):
I'm going to misquote it.
So I'm not even going to try and quote it, but it's, it's a lot of countries.
And, but community-wide, we probably have 60, 70, 80,000 people who have interacted with us or interact with us in some way.
And our staff is 15 right now.
(04:42):
We have a couple of positions that we are filling.
So by the end of the year, knock on something, we will have 17, but that is the size of the staff that supports this amazing profession and this amazing community.
So Rachel, you've been there since 2013 and you actually started as an administrative professional.
(05:02):
And then you, then you now have been since promoted to chief experience officer.
And before that you spent a couple of decades as an administrative professional yourself.
So, so you actually have the direct experience of your members.
I do.
Yeah.
So yes, I'm celebrating 12 years next month, actually with the organization and much like a lot of people when I joined the organization, I had no idea what IAAP was.
(05:31):
I had never heard of them, even though I had been in the profession for as long as I had.
And we hear that far too often.
That's something we're, we're trying to overcome and figure out how to spread the word more so, but yeah, it, it really, you know, I've always loved the profession in general and then joining the organization and getting to see what we do and who we serve.
(05:54):
I joined as an administrative professional in the conferences and professional development department.
And so throughout my tenure, I've served in various roles, but always tied to the programs, the services, kind of who we are, what we do and how we share that with the world.
That is such a passion of mine.
Like I, I'm sometimes I can't believe I get to do this for a job and get paid for it because it really is.
(06:19):
I mean, you mentioned it at the beginning, but this profession touches every single industry, every single organization in some way, like there are very few roles on this planet that can say that.
And so it comes with challenges, of course, like meeting the needs of that many industries, that many organizations, that wide variety of tasks and roles and responsibilities can definitely be a challenge, but it's also really exciting.
(06:47):
That's why I hear from our community and they're like, this is why I love being an admin professional because no day looks the same.
No, they, you know, you are transferable within industries.
It's, it's pretty incredible.
I remember when I opened up my talk at the summit, I said, I'm so excited about speaking to this room because you are all such powerful people.
(07:12):
And I know a lot of times the administrative professionals, they don't get the respect that they, they deserve because of the title.
And yet it's the CEOs, it's the executives who are actually trusting them and who are turning to them for advice.
And so it's such a privilege to get to, to speak to that, to your members and to your community.
(07:32):
And one of the reasons why I really wanted to have you on this podcast is because I think a lot of people, they're administrative professionals are misunderstood.
They, they, they're so behind the scenes and there are lots of different job titles for them.
So I wanted that for you to kind of clarify that, demystify that.
And also you are a association, a member association as well, which means you have a lot of bosses actually too.
(07:59):
And I know that you have that membership, both individual and organization.
And what are the, that's a special kind of nonprofit when you are a member association.
So I'm excited for the listeners to learn about how curiosity exists in, for administrative professionals and for a membership association.
So let's get started.
(08:21):
Rachel, we talk about curiosity as a practice on this podcast, and sometimes it's just not, it's hard to do.
And so can you share, when has it been, when do you find it personally difficult for you to practice curiosity at work?
I think where, where I really struggle with practicing curiosity is our team.
(08:44):
I mentioned we are 15 soon to be 17 and we are hybrid and remote.
So most of the time we are not in the same space.
It's very rare that we are in the same space.
And so we are really relying on technology to kind of fill in those gaps and connect and do the work.
And sometimes when I struggle is when you don't get to hear the context, right?
(09:08):
Like you don't get to read the body language.
You don't get to really kind of fill in those communication gaps, if you will, of how people are responding or sending a message or whatever.
And so sometimes all I have is one line in a team's message.
And so, you know, we all look at those with our own lens, right?
(09:30):
And so if my lens is not showing, if it's a little foggy that day and my lens is not showing up well, I really can struggle with curiosity.
And I start to create a narrative that I don't know is true, but I'm leaning into it and start to kind of spiral in that way.
So that really can be tricky in a remote, at least for me, in a remote organization is figuring out how to still communicate with each other in a way that does empower curiosity while, you know, not having the luxury of 93% of communication with each other.
(10:10):
And I know a lot of organizations, regardless of the industry that you're in, they struggle with that.
What about as a administrative professional then?
What is a struggle there?
When do you find it typical for you when you were an administrative professional or for maybe for members that you've heard, Hey, it's really difficult for me to practice curiosity right now.
(10:34):
I mean, sometimes it's just, you get those requests from the executives and just, Oh, what is this?
Or I don't know if you could share.
And this is a very broad brush that I'm about to paint with.
I'm certain that there are those in our community who deal with it differently, but I think the part of what you were talking about with the lack of value or the lack of recognition for the profession is oftentimes administrative professionals are receiving tasks or information or whatever it is without the full context.
(11:08):
So they're only getting a piece of it.
And honestly, they, they are sometimes tasked with filling in those blanks without the answers to the question.
So if you, I think that can be really tricky to go into that with curiosity and not kind of, again, create that narrative.
That's like, Oh, well, I only got this much because that means they think this or, you know, kind of fill in that blank.
(11:30):
And so really leaning into that curiosity space when you don't have the context, but when you need the context is a really fine balancing act, I think to find yourself in.
And so it's, I think it needs to be really important to keep that curiosity lens and ask those questions and use the voice to speak up.
(11:51):
You know, oftentimes our community either don't feel like, or don't actually have a voice in a lot of those spaces.
And so that's also another piece that can really, I think, be a barrier to curiosity is curiosity is all about questions, right?
And if you can't actually ask the question, then you're kind of stuck in a lot of ways.
(12:12):
And so figuring out how to, to ask those questions, to get the context and pieces that you need have to be part of that solve.
So what I'm also hearing there is it can be, it can be difficult to practice curiosity when you don't feel that you have the voice and then how do, how does the organization help ensure that people do encourage asking questions and that it doesn't, that the questions don't feel like they're a challenge to authority.
(12:42):
It's just, no, I actually need this to be able to do my job.
Yeah, exactly.
It's stripping the defensiveness away, right?
And the questions and just saying, Hey, I need this information.
I have zero judgment in it, but I need this information to fill in this context.
Do administrative professionals sometimes feel they have to be mind readers?
(13:03):
Oh my goodness.
Every admin listening to this right now.
I laughed for y'all because yes, a hundred percent of that, that is on the regular.
I am very fortunate to have an administrative assistant who supports me.
And I'm certain that he is going to be laughing really hard when he hears this because yes, I'm like, Oh yeah, you, I told you that, right?
(13:24):
You know that.
So yes, mind reading is a requirement.
So what about, what about ways of that?
What are some examples of how you help practice, foster practice and curiosity in your organization?
And then how people can also do it with their, with their administrative staff?
(13:48):
We, as an organization are really focused on enhancing leadership competencies.
We, it is part of our DNA.
It is who we are and firmly believe that everybody has the opportunity and the responsibility, honestly, to be a leader.
And I don't believe you can practice leadership without curiosity.
(14:08):
Like those are, those are hand in hand, one in the same.
And so that is just baked into our culture as a team is that we are all showing up as leaders.
And part of that is really assuming good intent and, you know, leaning into that curiosity.
I read in Reality-Based Leadership, I'm going to do a little shout out for this book because I really like it.
(14:30):
Cy Wakeman talks about if you are going to tell a narrative, make it the most positive story you can.
So often we create that narrative and we, you know, if we're not going to be curious, at least we're going to be positively not curious.
And then go from there instead of going from the most negative experience possible.
So that really is, that is part of our culture as a team, as a staff with IAAP is ensuring that we are not only assuming good intent, but also we have a very strong culture of feedback, which I believe is also very essential in curiosity.
(15:08):
And even being curious in that feedback and empowering everyone to give each other feedback, including feedback up.
Myself, our CEO, Melissa Mahoney, we are huge proponents of feedback for that reason.
And I think some people don't see that as, you know, kind of hand in hand, but I think it is like feedback and curiosity has to go together, even if it's within yourself.
(15:36):
Right?
So that's really the culture that we are creating to ensure that everybody has the opportunity to ask each other those questions, to say, hey, this may have hit me in a certain way.
Can we talk through it?
Or, hey, this was my experience and I need you to know that.
And how do we move through it to get to a productive working space together?
(15:58):
And curiosity, I think, is at the foundation of all of that.
How do you operationalize it though?
Because I think it's one thing, oh, please give me feedback, especially for people who feel that they have less power.
How do you actually operationalize that?
We are still trying to figure out how to make that work.
(16:18):
We just hosted an all team time the end of last month together, and we had a whole training session, all of us together in the same room that we were talking about feedback.
And we made it very clear, like, this is not theoretical.
This is not, hey, this would be nice.
This is an expectation.
So next step, we are actually working on creating some feedback kind of journals that everybody can have.
(16:47):
So they're actually tracking, like, okay, this is conversations that I need to have.
Or even, you know, we talked about this as a team, like, sometimes something kind of rubs you in a certain way, and that's yours to explore.
So even ensuring that self-awareness is part of that journey, kind of a journal tracking all of that.
And then if you do need to have a feedback conversation, it's going to have some, you know, sections that's like, this is what I want to talk about.
(17:13):
This is how it went.
This is how I can show up differently next time.
This went well.
This didn't go well.
So that we can look back on those and really ensure that we are continually growing in that space.
Because it's not a one and done, right?
It's not like, well, feedback, we're done.
It's a constant journey.
Rachel, I really appreciate the suggestion of having a journal.
(17:35):
Because one of the things we do at Curiosity Base, we actually help people, how do you give feedback and receive feedback with curiosity?
And one of the big pushbacks we get from people is like, I can't remember.
It happened so long ago.
And maybe that's just, oh, I was so angry at the time.
But now it's not a big deal.
So I'm going to move on.
And yeah, if you actually give people a journal, hey, write down that thing that kind of rubbed you the wrong way, and then you can revisit it.
(18:00):
And also practicing that in word curiosity, that self-reflection, it allows people to be specific.
Yeah, and accountable to it, right?
Yeah, yeah.
So because you can write down something and she's, oh, wait a minute, and then read it a week later.
Am I still bothered?
Yes.
But I can also approach it this way.
(18:20):
And then what you were saying about the, try to imagine at least the most positive version of the story that's possible.
It just reminds me of an old boss I had where I was just amazed by some of the crazy, mean stories he had about other people and what he assumed was happening.
And then I realized, oh, you imagine that because maybe you would do that yourself.
(18:45):
Imagine more about him.
I loved that in that book so much, honestly, because she talked about that.
She's like, she would tell her team.
She's like, if you're going to imagine a story, you have to imagine.
I think the example she said was, you got information from sales in the shipping department and it was missing all of these pieces.
And instead of saying, sales hates me, we're the worst, they never do this right, blah, blah, blah.
(19:10):
You switch and you're like, gosh, somebody was having a really bad day and they missed having all of this.
And thank goodness it came to me because I can fill in these pieces.
And just the lens, I loved that example because I'm like, yes, our brains are not wired to go positive.
They're wired to go negative.
So even flipping that changes the whole dynamic.
(19:31):
So I loved that.
Yeah, it makes me think a little bit about the inner critic too, but that's a separate thing I'd like to know.
If you've got administrative professional, maybe a team of administrative professionals in your organization, how can you help foster curiosity?
What tips would you give to someone who's managing administrative professionals to help them practice curiosity?
(19:54):
I truly believe that curiosity has to come in safe spaces.
And I don't think safe is a one and done, this is the definition of safe.
So I think every organization needs to determine what that looks like.
But if you are an organization who does not foster questions, who if somebody asks questions, they may be reprimanded for it, penalized for it, that's obviously not a great space to curate curiosity.
(20:25):
So I think ensuring as an organization that you have the space to say, we can only grow from curiosity, right?
Like we have to hear those perspectives.
And then I think giving, I really love, I had, I was thinking through some resources and I really love having kind of a list of maybe five questions that everyone can ask themselves if they find themselves in kind of those doom spiral narrative, storytelling spirals, we all do it, right?
(20:56):
Like having those questions that we encourage that can say, we're going to stop this, we're going to redirect it and encourage if you have a team of administrative professionals or a team in general, encourage each other to help stop that doom spiral.
We do that in our team a lot, like somebody will come and it might start as venting and it's like, well, have we thought about this perspective?
(21:20):
Or it's possible that this is the angle that they're coming from.
And have we thought about that?
And how would that change how we're handling this situation or how we're communicating with this community member, whatever it is, that list of questions that you can either stop and ask yourself or empower team members to ask each other to do, I think is game changing and cost nothing is super simple, but it changes the game immediately.
(21:45):
Yes.
And then it gives them that structure.
Ask these five questions, not just get a different perspective.
It's just, no, just go through these five questions.
Yes.
So Rachel, I want to ask, how do you identify and recruit for curiosity?
And in particular here, if someone is interviewing for an administrative professional role on their team, what tips would you give them to ask or to look for curiosity in that candidate?
(22:20):
I think there's really a lot of spaces and ways to do this.
I think the one that comes immediately to mind is anytime you can go scenario based, I think you're going to get more specific and maybe more, dare I say, honest responses than if you're asking theoretically.
So if you can have a scenario and I'm a big proponent of everybody processes differently.
(22:48):
So if there's even a way to create that scenario and if they can go away and work on that scenario and bring it to an interview, or can they do a written response versus a audio response, whatever that looks like to ensure that you are getting to the root of how people are feeling because communication, so much can be lost in communication, right?
(23:11):
So anything we can do to kind of break down those barriers and create real life scenarios in your team that might have happened that you can see, does somebody approach something from a state of judgment or would they approach something from a state of curiosity?
Could you give an example of a scenario that would be a kind of good common one to ask for an administrative professional role?
(23:36):
Um, yes, I was, I was actually just going to quote the reality based leadership book again.
I don't get any money for it.
I just read it and loved it.
But, um, she had a really great example and I could probably come up with a, another one.
Um, but she had a really good one where there was a colleague that was late, like four times in a row and was not putting the information correctly on her time sheet.
(24:02):
And so she had another, uh, one of her top performers, she said, came to her and was telling her about this situation.
And she stopped her and said, you had a colleague that was late four times this week.
What did you do to help?
And it just stopped them in their tracks.
And as it turned out, it, it had created, like, it was this whole, this whole like spy setup where they were spending so much time, like trying to catch this person in the act rather than stopping and saying, how can I clearly something is going on?
(24:33):
How can we support?
So, you know, even something as simple as that, where it's like, you have a colleague that is, you know, missing deadlines or is not showing up on time, or you have a, uh, an executive who you're supporting, who maybe is not giving you information that you need in a timely fashion.
How would you handle that?
(24:55):
How would you respond?
We've all been in those situations and, you know, whether you are completely honest or not, like the answer probably is here's how I need to support rather than here's what I would assume and spiral out in judgment on.
Yes.
I can imagine a common scenario that administrative professional would, would encounter is those not getting the answers to the questions or the late deadlines, and then all the stories that could come up that we make up.
(25:28):
And so posing that as a scenario and seeing how they would react to that would then help you understand how they're practicing curiosity.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Not, not filling in the answers, but, but pausing and getting the actual answers instead of making up our own.
Mm-hmm.
So Rachel, last question for you, which is what is inspiring curiosity in your own life right now?
(25:56):
This is going to sound super simple, but it's true.
Deep breathing is inspiring curiosity in my life right now.
It's a very hectic time of year.
There's a lot happening.
There's a lot in, in our association, January is really when things very much gear up.
(26:18):
So we're kind of putting some pieces together before that happens home.
Like everything is just stressful right now.
And so the pause and the deep breath, it is absolutely amazing when I actually stop and do that, how much comes up for me and how much I'm able to, to almost a very dear friend of mine who is my personal coach equates it to stocking groceries on a shelf.
(26:43):
Like when things look like a pile and then when you can stop and reflect and deep breathe, it just all fits into place.
Oh, that's such a good answer.
I've never thought about that.
It's so easy to do actually, and we can do it anywhere.
Just taking time to take a deep breath.
I was like, it feels too simple.
Well, Rachel, thank you so much for joining us today on the curiosity at work podcast.
(27:08):
I just want to thank you for all of your insights on administrative professionals as a profession, and also on what it's like to run a membership based association too.
It was so my pleasure.
Thank you so much for having me.
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