January 13, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode of Curiosity at Work, Dr. Julie Pham speaks with Harold D. Scoggins, Chief of the Seattle Fire Department, about leading with curiosity in emergency services. With over 35 years of experience, Chief Scoggins shares insights on fostering innovation, managing change in a tradition-rich field, and driving life-saving advancements like overdose response programs. Discover how the Seattle Fire Department balances legacy with progress to serve the community and inspire the next generation of firefighters.
Connect with Dr. Julie Pham:
- LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliepham2/
- Website:https://curiositybased.com/
- Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/juliephamphd/
Connect with Chief Harold Scoggins:
- Email: harold.scoggins@seattle.gov
- Website: https://www.seattle.gov/fire/about-us/about-the-department/leadership-team
#HaroldScoggins #SeattleFireDepartment #CuriosityAtWork #Leadership #EmergencyServices #Firefighters #Innovation #PublicSafety #CommunityImpact #ContinuousLearning
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hi, welcome to the Curiosity at Work podcast.
(00:27):
I'm Julie Pham, and today I get to have a conversation with Chief Harold Scoggins, who is the chief of the Seattle Fire Department.
Welcome Chief Harold.
Hi, Julie.
Thank you for having me.
Well, I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
I know that you have been a longtime veteran of the emergency services, something I just learned a term that you just taught me.
(00:51):
And so for 35 years, you've been in emergency services, right?
Yes, it has been a while.
November 1st, just past November 1st, was my 35th anniversary in municipal fire services.
I've been here in Seattle since April 1st of 2015, but I started November 1st, 1989 in Glendale, California.
(01:14):
But five years before that, I was also a firefighter in the United States Air Force.
So that's where I actually really learned about becoming a firefighter.
So it's been a career of public service.
So Chief Harold, did you think that you were, did you grow up thinking, I want to be a firefighter?
Is that something that you aspire to?
I didn't.
(01:36):
You know, it's pretty interesting because where I grew up in Los Angeles, there was a fire station right around the corner from my home.
Never been in that fire station, didn't know any firefighters.
It was a building.
I saw them go in and out when they were going on emergencies, but I never had an interest.
So it wasn't something I wanted to do as a small child.
(01:58):
So it was really when you were in the military that you discovered it then.
Oh, that's so interesting.
So can you explain a bit about what emergency services in the fire department does?
It's kind of a mystery to the public.
I know that you save cats sometimes and you save buildings.
If you could just share, what does your work entail?
(02:21):
You know, that's a great question because oftentimes individuals may think the fire department responds to fires and some medical calls and that's really kind of it.
That's a lot of what we do.
In 2023, we responded to over 111,000 emergencies here in the city of Seattle.
(02:43):
And that's fire emergencies, that's medical emergencies, ALS, which is advanced life support, or BLS, which is basic life support, but we also have fire boats.
So we responded to boat fires and water rescues.
We have divers.
We also have rescue swimmers.
We respond to hazardous materials emergencies.
(03:05):
There's a lot of chemicals moving around the community and on the freeway.
So we have a hazmat team and we also have an energy response team.
We're seeing more EV fires and scooters and large electrical vault fires.
So we have a team that responds to those and arson investigators and the list just goes on and on.
But really we're a catch-all.
(03:25):
We do what the community needs when they call 911.
You know, when someone calls 911, the dispatcher will say, is this a fire or medical emergency?
And those are pretty, you know, defining questions.
But oftentimes we have to get off the freeway and all these other conversations.
So we're kind of a catch-all for the community.
(03:46):
So then in terms of functions, well, actually, first of all, how many people work then for the Seattle Fire Department?
Yeah, so the makeup of the Seattle Fire Department is we're funded for 1,204 full-time employees.
Right now we have about a 12% vacancy rate in the department.
So that's what we have right now.
(04:07):
So we're just about 1,100.
We'll be working hard over the next couple of years to catch that back up.
But we're broken up into basically four sections of the fire department.
So operations is really what the community sees every day.
Those fire engines, ladder trucks, aid cars and medic units going in and out those fire station doors.
(04:28):
And that's where the bulk of our population is.
Out of our 33 fire stations, we have 220 firefighters on duty every day.
We work a four-platoon system.
So one shift on, two shifts off, one shift on, four days off.
So 24 on, 48 off, 24 on, 96 off.
So it turns out to be about eight 24-hour shifts a month.
(04:50):
So that's operations.
But we also have a section called resource management.
And that includes our training.
So generally we have two recruit training academies a year.
So training new firefighters is a pretty significant task.
And so that's done twice a year.
We also have in-service training that all of our firefighters have to maintain certain required training annually.
(05:14):
That's under resource management along with our emergency preparedness, our dispatch center, and our fleets and facilities.
So that's resource management.
The next arm is fire prevention.
Every building that's built in the community, we see it, we touch it, we inspect it, we review the plans, we do the new construction inspections.
(05:35):
And our goal is ensuring fire and life safety for the community.
But also sometimes people don't think about once the building is built, generally the fire department is the only agency in the city that actually does annual or biannual inspections ensuring fire and life safety.
And that's fire prevention, which is another big responsibility in the city.
(05:55):
And then our fourth arm of the department is our administrative section.
We have a human resources division.
You can imagine to keep the department staffed, we have a team of that.
We have a finance division in the department.
We have a public affairs division in the department.
And then we have IT.
So all four of those arms make up the Seattle Fire Department.
(06:16):
1,204 people.
We have 33 fire stations and about five other facilities that support this operation.
And everything that you need in the fire station, everything from fire hoses to ladders to plates in the cupboard, because we live there 24 hours, to refrigerators, all of those things are our responsibility.
(06:36):
And so I imagine that there is no working remotely for any of your folks then.
It's all in person.
Yeah, we never stop coming in.
It's important.
During COVID and all the changes that were made with work schedules and things like that, all of our firefighters came in each and every day as they do today.
(06:58):
And the compliment to that is most of our administrative folks came in every day also.
And I came in every day.
And my mindset was pretty simple.
If our firefighters are coming in every day, then the chief of the fire department is coming in every day.
And so we never stopped that.
That was important for us.
And then also, most of your team, are they union workers then?
(07:21):
Or how does that split work, too?
Yes.
So most folks in the Seattle Fire Department are represented by labor.
The biggest labor group is IAFF, International Association of Firefighters, Local 27.
And that's for all of our firefighters and supervisors.
So that's about a thousand of our folks.
Our chief officers, they have a labor group, the first managers, battalion, and deputy chiefs.
(07:47):
So that's another group.
Our professional staff, there's three different labor groups that are part of larger city labor groups.
The only individuals who aren't represented in the fire department are generally the upper-level leadership, myself, my assistant chiefs, our directors, and a few others in the department.
And when you were saying that the operation, so that's the front line.
(08:12):
That's what we typically, the public sees as, thinks about when we think about firefighters.
Are they the only ones that work those really long hours on the, I think you said one shift on and then two shifts off, and everyone else is just regular hours then?
Yes.
Everyone else is on a different schedule, mostly Monday through Friday.
(08:33):
But we do have some 410 work schedules or some 980s, and we have some 580s.
So the bulk of the department is in operation.
So they'll work 24 on and 48 off, unless they volunteer to stay an extra day so they can work 48 hours.
And if we're really in need of staffing, they can work up to 72 hours in a row.
(08:58):
Or special events.
We do all of those also in the city, whether it's a Seahawks game or a concert or a marathon.
I think in 2023 we did close to 600, and this year we're already past 600.
That's on top of all those other schedules that we just talked about.
So, yeah, I want to highlight that there's such diversity in just the work schedules in your team as well.
(09:22):
And then how do you build that culture, that shared culture, when people are just working such different hours?
And so, Ashley, let me get into our next question, which is, we think of curiosity as a practice, and sometimes it's easy to do, and oftentimes it's difficult to do.
(09:42):
Could you share with us, when do you find it difficult to practice curiosity at work, especially doing such emergency, challenging work as your work?
Yeah, that's an interesting question, because we like to believe that we're innovative and creative.
(10:02):
And we're always trying to look over the fence to see what we should be doing.
But we also have to look back and know that October 17th of this year was our 135th anniversary for the Seattle Fire Department.
So that means that we're built on a lot of tradition.
So any time we think we're leaning forward, change is one of those strange things that tradition kind of sometimes it overrides change, so it becomes very difficult.
(10:32):
Anytime we make a change in the fire department, because we think it's for the betterment of the organization or service to the community, it's always hard, because there's so much tradition behind what it is, whatever it is we're trying to change.
And usually these ideas will come up from the boots on the ground, from the rank and file, because they've identified a better way to do it.
(10:55):
But sometimes it's really, really hard.
So being curious is what we ask our folks to do, what makes it that's operational.
That sometimes can be very challenging.
And change management's important.
You've got to get a lot of people on board.
So it can be really hard.
And I can also imagine that with emergency services, that there's a tradition that you're actually proud of, too.
(11:23):
The fact that you're actually proud of the things that stay the same.
And actually, what's that retention rate, or how long do people typically serve as firefighters?
I imagine that it would be a long time, but I actually don't know.
Yeah, you know, our firefighters and most firefighters around this nation and the world are really proud of the work that they do.
(11:48):
But we all know that so many folks put the work in before us, and it's our job to build on it.
And so we are proud.
The retention rates in the fire department is usually, it's really great.
Most of our folks retire after 25, 30, 35 years.
I think our average years of service is about 29 years in the department.
(12:12):
We have some that stay for 40 or 50, even.
So our retention rates are great.
Once we get you here, you're going to stay a while.
That's what we see for the most part.
Chief Harold, that is astounding.
I think that there are very few industries that can say that they have such a long tenure.
(12:34):
If you're saying 29, 40 years.
And also, it's something that some people actually do.
It passes along the generation.
It's just your parent worked in the fire department, then they work in the fire department.
It tends to have more of that generational aspect to it as well, right?
Yes.
I mean, it is a legacy profession.
(12:56):
We have multiple generations in the department right now.
We have dads and sons, dads and daughters, and we have multiple generations.
So it is, you know, once folks see it and learn about it, and if the next generation coming up is spending time in fire stations or around firefighters, then sometimes the kids will say, that's what I want to do, because firefighters do a lot of things together, whether it's holidays at the stations or vacations or camping trips.
(13:35):
And, you know, a lot of kids grow up in this environment.
My kids grew up in this environment.
And sometimes the kids will say, yep, that's what I want to do.
So we do have a lot of legacies inside the department.
That's so beautiful and rare nowadays, too.
I think about in the tech industry where I used to work, it was an average of 18 months in any company.
(14:00):
And so to think about how long that people want to stay in this profession, I guess also because you train quite a bit, too.
There's quite a bit of a time investment to become a firefighter, right?
It is.
It's significant.
You know, we just closed our applications on November 29th, and we received 3,884 applications.
(14:25):
And so a lot of folks are looking at this as a real opportunity, but that's where it just begins.
You know, filling out an application is one thing, but passing the written exam, passing the oral interview, then the medical, the background, the psych, and all the other steps to just get you to start training, which is 16 weeks, 15 and a half weeks.
(14:46):
That's just the start.
That's about 720 hours in that training academy.
And there's a lot of pass-fail events because this is very real now.
Once you're in the academy, you're getting paid.
We expect you to do some things.
But then once you graduate the academy, you're on probation for the balance of the next 12 months.
But your training never stops throughout your entire career.
(15:08):
I mean, you know, the WAC, for example, 296-305, it has annual training.
NFPA, National Fire Protection Association, has set aside recommended standards for all the things that we have to do.
Our folks are EMTs and paramedics.
There's ongoing training.
Then if you want to promote, there's more study and there's more training.
So the wheel never stops.
(15:30):
And many people like that because, you know, our training may not be sitting, you know, at a desk taking an exam.
It may be going outside, pulling some hose off the fire engine or simulating there's a fire on the fourth floor of that building.
So we need to get creative and think how we're going to get up to that fourth floor of that building.
Then if we have someone that needs to be rescued, we need to figure out how to get them down from that fourth floor.
(15:53):
I mean, so our training is a little bit different.
It's a lot of scenario based, based on our safety and operating guidelines.
But, yeah, our training never stops.
I didn't realize how much training was such a big part of your personnel.
Yes.
And now as you describe it, it's just, oh, yes, it's constantly training because you constantly have to stay updated.
(16:14):
So considering, so there's a lot of training.
There's also a lot of tradition.
What is something that you do to foster the curiosity, the practice of curiosity on your team?
You know, we ask questions to our folks.
We try to figure out what should we be doing?
What are we doing that's not working?
(16:35):
And sometimes that's difficult because folks have different opinions.
And then we always look to the outside.
What are like size organizations, fire departments around this nation?
What are they doing?
What challenges are they facing that maybe we haven't faced yet that we can learn from?
So all of those things put different things in the mix.
(16:57):
But we try to really bring all that together.
Well, one other thing we're doing is we call it SIRs, situation and incident report.
After every fire we have, the individuals on that fire, they will sit down and they will identify the things that took place in that fire.
We get the recordings.
We get all the input.
And now we have a quick recap, and we try to learn from that.
(17:20):
But what all that goes into is our standard operating guidelines on how we do business in the field, whether it's a high-rise fire, whether it's a multiple MCI, multiple casualty incident, whether it's an event at one of the stadiums.
And so we try to continuously change our operating guidelines based on the information that we learn.
(17:43):
Well, you've got to imagine, after 25 years, you can get comfortable doing it this way.
So it can be really difficult to change from doing it this way, even though we just learned that that may be the better way.
But comfort sets in.
And I don't want to say complacency.
It's probably more comfort.
And it becomes really difficult to change operations, even though we've learned because the department back east has had a fatality.
(18:11):
And we said, oh, we do that.
We better change.
That can be really difficult for us.
So can you give a specific example of a time when you really had to push for that, when comfort was setting in, and you really had to push for people to set aside that comfort so that they could learn?
Sure.
I'll touch on maybe two, but one for sure.
(18:33):
The one I just talked about is our standard operating guidelines.
So we have about 25 plans on how we operate out in the field.
And we really try to focus on best practices.
So I got to Seattle in 2015.
And probably two or three years into that is when we made a decision that we needed to update all of our operational plans.
(19:02):
I mean, all of them.
And we had a plan, and we're still working through it.
We're not done yet.
And this is six, seven, eight years later.
But the resistance was real, even though we gathered a team of tactical technicians from the field who do really well in operations.
(19:23):
We sent out for feedback, trying to control the messaging and giving everyone a chance for input, rolling it out as slow as we can, doing training scenarios with small groups.
But it always comes a point in time when it's time to implement.
Even though you do all of those things, trying to really manage change management, you get to the implementation phase, and there's resistance.
(19:48):
And it's real, real resistance.
And so we have to just continue to educate, ask questions, ask for input.
But eventually, we move forward.
And in the beginning, when we started this process on standard operating guideline number one, for example, really, really difficult.
(20:08):
We're in our mid-20s now.
Everyone has learned the process.
And there's some resistance, but not as much.
But I think everyone sees that.
Our goal is simple.
We want to keep you safe.
We want you to go home to your families.
We want to put you in the best position to be successful when you're dealing with these really challenging events out in the field.
(20:30):
And we think these best practices that we put in play can do that.
So our goals are pure, and our intent is pure.
But it still gets really difficult.
And even today, it gets really difficult.
But we have a plan on how many we want to implement.
And then we have to retrain on them.
Because, you know, I mentioned the number of people we have and the longevity in the department.
(20:55):
But we come in in large groups.
So when one group is leaving, another large group is coming in.
So since 2015, when I got here, we hired close to 600 new people in the Seattle Fire Department.
That's half the department in nine and a half years.
And so also making sure this young fire department has the best playbook to be successful is really important to us also.
(21:24):
So all of these things play a part in change management, people coming in, coming out, you know, what the traditions are.
We've been doing it this way for a long time.
It works just fine.
But we also try to talk about and learn what's happening around the country.
My assistant chief of operations, Brian Hastings, he hosts a call every month.
And he has about 15 to 17 of his peers in fire departments from around the nation.
(21:50):
They have a call every month, and they talk about the challenges they're facing.
That's New York to L.A. to Philadelphia, all the big departments.
We start at that call.
We start at that call.
We host that call.
And every month we do that call, and he brings back the knowledge.
And they take it back to their organizations.
Because we're always trying to learn to get better, and that could lead to us making a change in one of our plans.
(22:14):
Or we send our plans out to other departments who may not be as far down the road as us, and we share a lot too.
So that's important.
That just makes me think about how sometimes you have to initiate that sharing.
It seems so simple, and yet it does take someone to spearhead that and then for it to consistently happen.
What you were saying about how people come in in these classes or these cohorts, I didn't realize that.
(22:40):
We call them recruit training academies, and we have two a year.
And so they do come in in groups.
And depending on the needs of the department, sometimes the groups are larger, and sometimes the groups are smaller.
In our mayor's current budget for 25 and 26, we've upped the number because we're really trying to bring the vacancy rate down.
(23:01):
So our plan is to hire 80 a year for the next two years.
And so that's 160 people.
That's 16% of the department in groups of 40, is what the goal is right there.
But everyone goes through the learning process.
So classes come in together, and these are lifelong friends and family now.
(23:22):
Because you came in together, you went to this experience together.
But when you get out of the recruit academy, you have 33 fire stations across four different shift schedules.
So you may not see each other very much.
And, you know, the Seattle Fire Department has its culture, and that's important because it's based on our beliefs and experiences and actions.
(23:45):
But each station has their individual culture.
So generally when the new folks come in, they will assimilate into the station culture because that's where they're going with this small group of people every day.
Now, you got the overarching department culture, but really you're working with this group of people every day, and that creates your culture.
(24:07):
And then that becomes your close-knit family because you live there 24 hours together.
You're eating your meals together.
You're learning about each other's families.
And you're doing this really, really hard work together, whether it's a fire or a cardiac event.
You're sharing these significant experiences, which bring you closer together.
I often like to say that people will leave jobs they love if they hate the people they work with, and they will stay in jobs they hate if they love the people that they work with.
(24:38):
And what you're describing here is this real sense of community.
Yes.
And I can imagine people saying, I really feel it sounds like a family, a community.
And I can see why then that the retention rate is so high then.
And also, I mean, it's very selective.
You said 3,800 people applied in this recent, and what, 40 get selected?
(25:03):
160 is what we'll hire out of that 3,800.
So it is very selective.
It's very competitive.
Considering that, how do you look for curiosity when you're recruiting, when you're making that selection?
How do you look for curiosity in the candidates?
You know, I think the fire department is all about curiosity.
(25:24):
We need people who can think for themselves, even though we have this very regimented process.
All these things you have to learn along the way.
But we really want people who can think for themselves and make decisions for themselves.
Because for us, no scenario is the same.
(25:44):
You know, if it's a vehicle accident, yeah, we've been on thousands of vehicle accidents, but they're all just a little bit different, which will cause your decision making to be just a little bit different.
We've been on thousands of cardiac arrests, but they're always just a little bit different.
And we need to know that we have people out there serving community who are curious, who are asking the right questions, who are thinking through these things.
(26:07):
But we encourage, you know, scenario-based training.
So we do a lot of what-ifs and get people to really think.
We'll have a building in the community, and we'll say, hey, let's go walk this building.
And someone on the crew will say, hey, we have a fire in a dumpster in the underground parking garage, and it's 2 o'clock in the morning.
So all of these things create all these very difficult challenges.
(26:31):
And now how would you handle that?
Or it's 2 o'clock in the afternoon, and the fire is right next to an elementary school, and the winds are really blowing towards the elementary school.
What would you do?
I mean, all of these things will trigger thought and make our folks think a little bit.
So what this turns into is we could do this better.
(26:52):
There's a better tool out there.
Hey, there's a better way to run this program.
Or there's a new fancy thing we haven't seen in the Seattle Fire Department.
Now I've got to introduce it, and I'll give you a couple of examples.
So we just had a press release yesterday with the mayor on buprenorphine.
So buprenorphine is a drug.
(27:14):
It's a narcotic that you can give someone after they have had an overdose.
And what this will do in between 28 and 48 hours, one, it would take them out of the withdrawals, which is very painful and very hard for a person who's addicted to drugs to go through.
So buprenorphine would stop that.
And then if they had another hit of the fentanyl in the next 24 to 48 hours, it basically disconnects the brain receptors so they wouldn't get high.
(27:44):
But what this does is it gives us clarity.
It gives the individual clarity.
So they can now start to make some excellent life decisions because they're starting to come off the drug and start to take these steps.
Well, this idea to do this came from one of our firefighters who work on our Health 99 unit, which is our overdose response unit, and said, hey, how come we can't do this?
(28:08):
This is what we need to be doing out in the field.
And to give you the significance without the long story of getting here, we are the first fire department in the nation for our firefighter EMTs to give buprenorphine, which is what we announced to the community.
First in the nation.
You know, we have a few firsts in the Seattle Fire Department.
(28:28):
That's our most recent example.
Another example is our paramedic training program that started over 50 years ago that really kind of set the stage for paramedicine across this nation.
There were four fire departments around the nation moving down this road because why we think we can serve people who are having significant cardiac events or trauma in the field.
(28:50):
How come we can't figure out how to do this service better so we can treat them in the field?
All of these things started by curiosity with folks saying, I think we could do that better.
We just have to be open to hearing it as leaders.
You know, I tell our folks all the time.
My job is to block and tackle.
You're going to bring me the best ideas.
(29:12):
So I need to block those people who are in your way and make a hole for you so we can get it through.
I need to tackle those naysayers and get them out your way so we can continue to push these things forward.
So as leaders, we have to be open to curiosity because we get stuck sometime because we're comfortable.
We're complacent.
We can see retirement at the end of the road.
(29:32):
We don't want to do new stuff because it takes new energy and we may not have that energy.
I try to be the opposite of that.
That story, I feel so proud.
I feel so proud to be in Seattle and to have you as the head of our fire department and to know that there's so much innovation that saves lives.
So thank you for sharing that example.
(29:53):
So last question.
What is inspiring curiosity for you in your own personal life right now?
Well, you know, as I talk about retirement, that's one of the things that I'm a little nervous about.
I'm a little afraid about it.
I've never done that before.
So I'm trying to learn.
I'm trying to figure out what's next.
(30:16):
You know, so that's one thing.
My family has grown.
We have four kids and they're doing amazing.
We have three grandkids.
So I'm trying to figure out how to be a grandparent, you know.
And I realize and I've told this story a couple of times.
The first time I held my granddaughter, who turned one last August, I said, well, that was a very different feeling than when I held my grandsons.
(30:39):
And I don't know why that was.
So I'm trying to learn about that and trying to do that.
So all of those things in the future for me personally, because they're coming, you know.
We all want to get there.
But I don't want to get there and figure out, wow, this is a bad decision.
I'm kind of bored because I'm pretty active right now.
(31:00):
I do a lot of things.
So I'm trying to figure that part out for myself.
So thinking ahead of how you will continue that learning in retirement and also finding inspiration just within your family too.
And I love that you're asking yourself, why did I feel different from my grandson to my granddaughter?
That's one of the simple yet profound questions.
(31:22):
So thank you for sharing that.
Chief Harold, how can people get in touch with you?
Sure, feel free to reach out to any of our Seattle Fire Department connections.
But my email is always best, you know, harold.scoggins@seattle.gov. It's simple.
It's my name at seattle.gov. But if there's any questions anyone has for me, please feel free to reach out.
(31:46):
Chief Harold, thank you so much for being on the Curiosity at Work podcast.
I've learned so much about emergency services, about the fire department, about this.
It's just you've demystified so much for me and for our listeners and how Curiosity operates.
So thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it.
(32:07):
Thank you, listeners.
Remember to practice curiosity at work.
I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hi, welcome to the Curiosity at Work podcast.
(00:27):
I'm Julie Pham, and today I get to have a conversation with Chief Harold Scoggins, who is the chief of the Seattle Fire Department.
Welcome Chief Harold.
Hi, Julie.
Thank you for having me.
Well, I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
I know that you have been a longtime veteran of the emergency services, something I just learned a term that you just taught me.
(00:51):
And so for 35 years, you've been in emergency services, right?
Yes, it has been a while.
November 1st, just past November 1st, was my 35th anniversary in municipal fire services.
I've been here in Seattle since April 1st of 2015, but I started November 1st, 1989 in Glendale, California.
(01:14):
But five years before that, I was also a firefighter in the United States Air Force.
So that's where I actually really learned about becoming a firefighter.
So it's been a career of public service.
So Chief Harold, did you think that you were, did you grow up thinking, I want to be a firefighter?
Is that something that you aspire to?
I didn't.
(01:36):
You know, it's pretty interesting because where I grew up in Los Angeles, there was a fire station right around the corner from my home.
Never been in that fire station, didn't know any firefighters.
It was a building.
I saw them go in and out when they were going on emergencies, but I never had an interest.
So it wasn't something I wanted to do as a small child.
(01:58):
So it was really when you were in the military that you discovered it then.
Oh, that's so interesting.
So can you explain a bit about what emergency services in the fire department does?
It's kind of a mystery to the public.
I know that you save cats sometimes and you save buildings.
If you could just share, what does your work entail?
(02:21):
You know, that's a great question because oftentimes individuals may think the fire department responds to fires and some medical calls and that's really kind of it.
That's a lot of what we do.
In 2023, we responded to over 111,000 emergencies here in the city of Seattle.
(02:43):
And that's fire emergencies, that's medical emergencies, ALS, which is advanced life support, or BLS, which is basic life support, but we also have fire boats.
So we responded to boat fires and water rescues.
We have divers.
We also have rescue swimmers.
We respond to hazardous materials emergencies.
(03:05):
There's a lot of chemicals moving around the community and on the freeway.
So we have a hazmat team and we also have an energy response team.
We're seeing more EV fires and scooters and large electrical vault fires.
So we have a team that responds to those and arson investigators and the list just goes on and on.
But really we're a catch-all.
(03:25):
We do what the community needs when they call 911.
You know, when someone calls 911, the dispatcher will say, is this a fire or medical emergency?
And those are pretty, you know, defining questions.
But oftentimes we have to get off the freeway and all these other conversations.
So we're kind of a catch-all for the community.
(03:46):
So then in terms of functions, well, actually, first of all, how many people work then for the Seattle Fire Department?
Yeah, so the makeup of the Seattle Fire Department is we're funded for 1,204 full-time employees.
Right now we have about a 12% vacancy rate in the department.
So that's what we have right now.
(04:07):
So we're just about 1,100.
We'll be working hard over the next couple of years to catch that back up.
But we're broken up into basically four sections of the fire department.
So operations is really what the community sees every day.
Those fire engines, ladder trucks, aid cars and medic units going in and out those fire station doors.
(04:28):
And that's where the bulk of our population is.
Out of our 33 fire stations, we have 220 firefighters on duty every day.
We work a four-platoon system.
So one shift on, two shifts off, one shift on, four days off.
So 24 on, 48 off, 24 on, 96 off.
So it turns out to be about eight 24-hour shifts a month.
(04:50):
So that's operations.
But we also have a section called resource management.
And that includes our training.
So generally we have two recruit training academies a year.
So training new firefighters is a pretty significant task.
And so that's done twice a year.
We also have in-service training that all of our firefighters have to maintain certain required training annually.
(05:14):
That's under resource management along with our emergency preparedness, our dispatch center, and our fleets and facilities.
So that's resource management.
The next arm is fire prevention.
Every building that's built in the community, we see it, we touch it, we inspect it, we review the plans, we do the new construction inspections.
(05:35):
And our goal is ensuring fire and life safety for the community.
But also sometimes people don't think about once the building is built, generally the fire department is the only agency in the city that actually does annual or biannual inspections ensuring fire and life safety.
And that's fire prevention, which is another big responsibility in the city.
(05:55):
And then our fourth arm of the department is our administrative section.
We have a human resources division.
You can imagine to keep the department staffed, we have a team of that.
We have a finance division in the department.
We have a public affairs division in the department.
And then we have IT.
So all four of those arms make up the Seattle Fire Department.
(06:16):
1,204 people.
We have 33 fire stations and about five other facilities that support this operation.
And everything that you need in the fire station, everything from fire hoses to ladders to plates in the cupboard, because we live there 24 hours, to refrigerators, all of those things are our responsibility.
(06:36):
And so I imagine that there is no working remotely for any of your folks then.
It's all in person.
Yeah, we never stop coming in.
It's important.
During COVID and all the changes that were made with work schedules and things like that, all of our firefighters came in each and every day as they do today.
(06:58):
And the compliment to that is most of our administrative folks came in every day also.
And I came in every day.
And my mindset was pretty simple.
If our firefighters are coming in every day, then the chief of the fire department is coming in every day.
And so we never stopped that.
That was important for us.
And then also, most of your team, are they union workers then?
(07:21):
Or how does that split work, too?
Yes.
So most folks in the Seattle Fire Department are represented by labor.
The biggest labor group is IAFF, International Association of Firefighters, Local 27.
And that's for all of our firefighters and supervisors.
So that's about a thousand of our folks.
Our chief officers, they have a labor group, the first managers, battalion, and deputy chiefs.
(07:47):
So that's another group.
Our professional staff, there's three different labor groups that are part of larger city labor groups.
The only individuals who aren't represented in the fire department are generally the upper-level leadership, myself, my assistant chiefs, our directors, and a few others in the department.
And when you were saying that the operation, so that's the front line.
(08:12):
That's what we typically, the public sees as, thinks about when we think about firefighters.
Are they the only ones that work those really long hours on the, I think you said one shift on and then two shifts off, and everyone else is just regular hours then?
Yes.
Everyone else is on a different schedule, mostly Monday through Friday.
(08:33):
But we do have some 410 work schedules or some 980s, and we have some 580s.
So the bulk of the department is in operation.
So they'll work 24 on and 48 off, unless they volunteer to stay an extra day so they can work 48 hours.
And if we're really in need of staffing, they can work up to 72 hours in a row.
(08:58):
Or special events.
We do all of those also in the city, whether it's a Seahawks game or a concert or a marathon.
I think in 2023 we did close to 600, and this year we're already past 600.
That's on top of all those other schedules that we just talked about.
So, yeah, I want to highlight that there's such diversity in just the work schedules in your team as well.
(09:22):
And then how do you build that culture, that shared culture, when people are just working such different hours?
And so, Ashley, let me get into our next question, which is, we think of curiosity as a practice, and sometimes it's easy to do, and oftentimes it's difficult to do.
(09:42):
Could you share with us, when do you find it difficult to practice curiosity at work, especially doing such emergency, challenging work as your work?
Yeah, that's an interesting question, because we like to believe that we're innovative and creative.
(10:02):
And we're always trying to look over the fence to see what we should be doing.
But we also have to look back and know that October 17th of this year was our 135th anniversary for the Seattle Fire Department.
So that means that we're built on a lot of tradition.
So any time we think we're leaning forward, change is one of those strange things that tradition kind of sometimes it overrides change, so it becomes very difficult.
(10:32):
Anytime we make a change in the fire department, because we think it's for the betterment of the organization or service to the community, it's always hard, because there's so much tradition behind what it is, whatever it is we're trying to change.
And usually these ideas will come up from the boots on the ground, from the rank and file, because they've identified a better way to do it.
(10:55):
But sometimes it's really, really hard.
So being curious is what we ask our folks to do, what makes it that's operational.
That sometimes can be very challenging.
And change management's important.
You've got to get a lot of people on board.
So it can be really hard.
And I can also imagine that with emergency services, that there's a tradition that you're actually proud of, too.
(11:23):
The fact that you're actually proud of the things that stay the same.
And actually, what's that retention rate, or how long do people typically serve as firefighters?
I imagine that it would be a long time, but I actually don't know.
Yeah, you know, our firefighters and most firefighters around this nation and the world are really proud of the work that they do.
(11:48):
But we all know that so many folks put the work in before us, and it's our job to build on it.
And so we are proud.
The retention rates in the fire department is usually, it's really great.
Most of our folks retire after 25, 30, 35 years.
I think our average years of service is about 29 years in the department.
(12:12):
We have some that stay for 40 or 50, even.
So our retention rates are great.
Once we get you here, you're going to stay a while.
That's what we see for the most part.
Chief Harold, that is astounding.
I think that there are very few industries that can say that they have such a long tenure.
(12:34):
If you're saying 29, 40 years.
And also, it's something that some people actually do.
It passes along the generation.
It's just your parent worked in the fire department, then they work in the fire department.
It tends to have more of that generational aspect to it as well, right?
Yes.
I mean, it is a legacy profession.
(12:56):
We have multiple generations in the department right now.
We have dads and sons, dads and daughters, and we have multiple generations.
So it is, you know, once folks see it and learn about it, and if the next generation coming up is spending time in fire stations or around firefighters, then sometimes the kids will say, that's what I want to do, because firefighters do a lot of things together, whether it's holidays at the stations or vacations or camping trips.
(13:35):
And, you know, a lot of kids grow up in this environment.
My kids grew up in this environment.
And sometimes the kids will say, yep, that's what I want to do.
So we do have a lot of legacies inside the department.
That's so beautiful and rare nowadays, too.
I think about in the tech industry where I used to work, it was an average of 18 months in any company.
(14:00):
And so to think about how long that people want to stay in this profession, I guess also because you train quite a bit, too.
There's quite a bit of a time investment to become a firefighter, right?
It is.
It's significant.
You know, we just closed our applications on November 29th, and we received 3,884 applications.
(14:25):
And so a lot of folks are looking at this as a real opportunity, but that's where it just begins.
You know, filling out an application is one thing, but passing the written exam, passing the oral interview, then the medical, the background, the psych, and all the other steps to just get you to start training, which is 16 weeks, 15 and a half weeks.
(14:46):
That's just the start.
That's about 720 hours in that training academy.
And there's a lot of pass-fail events because this is very real now.
Once you're in the academy, you're getting paid.
We expect you to do some things.
But then once you graduate the academy, you're on probation for the balance of the next 12 months.
But your training never stops throughout your entire career.
(15:08):
I mean, you know, the WAC, for example, 296-305, it has annual training.
NFPA, National Fire Protection Association, has set aside recommended standards for all the things that we have to do.
Our folks are EMTs and paramedics.
There's ongoing training.
Then if you want to promote, there's more study and there's more training.
So the wheel never stops.
(15:30):
And many people like that because, you know, our training may not be sitting, you know, at a desk taking an exam.
It may be going outside, pulling some hose off the fire engine or simulating there's a fire on the fourth floor of that building.
So we need to get creative and think how we're going to get up to that fourth floor of that building.
Then if we have someone that needs to be rescued, we need to figure out how to get them down from that fourth floor.
(15:53):
I mean, so our training is a little bit different.
It's a lot of scenario based, based on our safety and operating guidelines.
But, yeah, our training never stops.
I didn't realize how much training was such a big part of your personnel.
Yes.
And now as you describe it, it's just, oh, yes, it's constantly training because you constantly have to stay updated.
(16:14):
So considering, so there's a lot of training.
There's also a lot of tradition.
What is something that you do to foster the curiosity, the practice of curiosity on your team?
You know, we ask questions to our folks.
We try to figure out what should we be doing?
What are we doing that's not working?
(16:35):
And sometimes that's difficult because folks have different opinions.
And then we always look to the outside.
What are like size organizations, fire departments around this nation?
What are they doing?
What challenges are they facing that maybe we haven't faced yet that we can learn from?
So all of those things put different things in the mix.
(16:57):
But we try to really bring all that together.
Well, one other thing we're doing is we call it SIRs, situation and incident report.
After every fire we have, the individuals on that fire, they will sit down and they will identify the things that took place in that fire.
We get the recordings.
We get all the input.
And now we have a quick recap, and we try to learn from that.
(17:20):
But what all that goes into is our standard operating guidelines on how we do business in the field, whether it's a high-rise fire, whether it's a multiple MCI, multiple casualty incident, whether it's an event at one of the stadiums.
And so we try to continuously change our operating guidelines based on the information that we learn.
(17:43):
Well, you've got to imagine, after 25 years, you can get comfortable doing it this way.
So it can be really difficult to change from doing it this way, even though we just learned that that may be the better way.
But comfort sets in.
And I don't want to say complacency.
It's probably more comfort.
And it becomes really difficult to change operations, even though we've learned because the department back east has had a fatality.
(18:11):
And we said, oh, we do that.
We better change.
That can be really difficult for us.
So can you give a specific example of a time when you really had to push for that, when comfort was setting in, and you really had to push for people to set aside that comfort so that they could learn?
Sure.
I'll touch on maybe two, but one for sure.
(18:33):
The one I just talked about is our standard operating guidelines.
So we have about 25 plans on how we operate out in the field.
And we really try to focus on best practices.
So I got to Seattle in 2015.
And probably two or three years into that is when we made a decision that we needed to update all of our operational plans.
(19:02):
I mean, all of them.
And we had a plan, and we're still working through it.
We're not done yet.
And this is six, seven, eight years later.
But the resistance was real, even though we gathered a team of tactical technicians from the field who do really well in operations.
(19:23):
We sent out for feedback, trying to control the messaging and giving everyone a chance for input, rolling it out as slow as we can, doing training scenarios with small groups.
But it always comes a point in time when it's time to implement.
Even though you do all of those things, trying to really manage change management, you get to the implementation phase, and there's resistance.
(19:48):
And it's real, real resistance.
And so we have to just continue to educate, ask questions, ask for input.
But eventually, we move forward.
And in the beginning, when we started this process on standard operating guideline number one, for example, really, really difficult.
(20:08):
We're in our mid-20s now.
Everyone has learned the process.
And there's some resistance, but not as much.
But I think everyone sees that.
Our goal is simple.
We want to keep you safe.
We want you to go home to your families.
We want to put you in the best position to be successful when you're dealing with these really challenging events out in the field.
(20:30):
And we think these best practices that we put in play can do that.
So our goals are pure, and our intent is pure.
But it still gets really difficult.
And even today, it gets really difficult.
But we have a plan on how many we want to implement.
And then we have to retrain on them.
Because, you know, I mentioned the number of people we have and the longevity in the department.
(20:55):
But we come in in large groups.
So when one group is leaving, another large group is coming in.
So since 2015, when I got here, we hired close to 600 new people in the Seattle Fire Department.
That's half the department in nine and a half years.
And so also making sure this young fire department has the best playbook to be successful is really important to us also.
(21:24):
So all of these things play a part in change management, people coming in, coming out, you know, what the traditions are.
We've been doing it this way for a long time.
It works just fine.
But we also try to talk about and learn what's happening around the country.
My assistant chief of operations, Brian Hastings, he hosts a call every month.
And he has about 15 to 17 of his peers in fire departments from around the nation.
(21:50):
They have a call every month, and they talk about the challenges they're facing.
That's New York to L.A. to Philadelphia, all the big departments.
We start at that call.
We start at that call.
We host that call.
And every month we do that call, and he brings back the knowledge.
And they take it back to their organizations.
Because we're always trying to learn to get better, and that could lead to us making a change in one of our plans.
(22:14):
Or we send our plans out to other departments who may not be as far down the road as us, and we share a lot too.
So that's important.
That just makes me think about how sometimes you have to initiate that sharing.
It seems so simple, and yet it does take someone to spearhead that and then for it to consistently happen.
What you were saying about how people come in in these classes or these cohorts, I didn't realize that.
(22:40):
We call them recruit training academies, and we have two a year.
And so they do come in in groups.
And depending on the needs of the department, sometimes the groups are larger, and sometimes the groups are smaller.
In our mayor's current budget for 25 and 26, we've upped the number because we're really trying to bring the vacancy rate down.
(23:01):
So our plan is to hire 80 a year for the next two years.
And so that's 160 people.
That's 16% of the department in groups of 40, is what the goal is right there.
But everyone goes through the learning process.
So classes come in together, and these are lifelong friends and family now.
(23:22):
Because you came in together, you went to this experience together.
But when you get out of the recruit academy, you have 33 fire stations across four different shift schedules.
So you may not see each other very much.
And, you know, the Seattle Fire Department has its culture, and that's important because it's based on our beliefs and experiences and actions.
(23:45):
But each station has their individual culture.
So generally when the new folks come in, they will assimilate into the station culture because that's where they're going with this small group of people every day.
Now, you got the overarching department culture, but really you're working with this group of people every day, and that creates your culture.
(24:07):
And then that becomes your close-knit family because you live there 24 hours together.
You're eating your meals together.
You're learning about each other's families.
And you're doing this really, really hard work together, whether it's a fire or a cardiac event.
You're sharing these significant experiences, which bring you closer together.
I often like to say that people will leave jobs they love if they hate the people they work with, and they will stay in jobs they hate if they love the people that they work with.
(24:38):
And what you're describing here is this real sense of community.
Yes.
And I can imagine people saying, I really feel it sounds like a family, a community.
And I can see why then that the retention rate is so high then.
And also, I mean, it's very selective.
You said 3,800 people applied in this recent, and what, 40 get selected?
(25:03):
160 is what we'll hire out of that 3,800.
So it is very selective.
It's very competitive.
Considering that, how do you look for curiosity when you're recruiting, when you're making that selection?
How do you look for curiosity in the candidates?
You know, I think the fire department is all about curiosity.
(25:24):
We need people who can think for themselves, even though we have this very regimented process.
All these things you have to learn along the way.
But we really want people who can think for themselves and make decisions for themselves.
Because for us, no scenario is the same.
(25:44):
You know, if it's a vehicle accident, yeah, we've been on thousands of vehicle accidents, but they're all just a little bit different, which will cause your decision making to be just a little bit different.
We've been on thousands of cardiac arrests, but they're always just a little bit different.
And we need to know that we have people out there serving community who are curious, who are asking the right questions, who are thinking through these things.
(26:07):
But we encourage, you know, scenario-based training.
So we do a lot of what-ifs and get people to really think.
We'll have a building in the community, and we'll say, hey, let's go walk this building.
And someone on the crew will say, hey, we have a fire in a dumpster in the underground parking garage, and it's 2 o'clock in the morning.
So all of these things create all these very difficult challenges.
(26:31):
And now how would you handle that?
Or it's 2 o'clock in the afternoon, and the fire is right next to an elementary school, and the winds are really blowing towards the elementary school.
What would you do?
I mean, all of these things will trigger thought and make our folks think a little bit.
So what this turns into is we could do this better.
(26:52):
There's a better tool out there.
Hey, there's a better way to run this program.
Or there's a new fancy thing we haven't seen in the Seattle Fire Department.
Now I've got to introduce it, and I'll give you a couple of examples.
So we just had a press release yesterday with the mayor on buprenorphine.
So buprenorphine is a drug.
(27:14):
It's a narcotic that you can give someone after they have had an overdose.
And what this will do in between 28 and 48 hours, one, it would take them out of the withdrawals, which is very painful and very hard for a person who's addicted to drugs to go through.
So buprenorphine would stop that.
And then if they had another hit of the fentanyl in the next 24 to 48 hours, it basically disconnects the brain receptors so they wouldn't get high.
(27:44):
But what this does is it gives us clarity.
It gives the individual clarity.
So they can now start to make some excellent life decisions because they're starting to come off the drug and start to take these steps.
Well, this idea to do this came from one of our firefighters who work on our Health 99 unit, which is our overdose response unit, and said, hey, how come we can't do this?
(28:08):
This is what we need to be doing out in the field.
And to give you the significance without the long story of getting here, we are the first fire department in the nation for our firefighter EMTs to give buprenorphine, which is what we announced to the community.
First in the nation.
You know, we have a few firsts in the Seattle Fire Department.
(28:28):
That's our most recent example.
Another example is our paramedic training program that started over 50 years ago that really kind of set the stage for paramedicine across this nation.
There were four fire departments around the nation moving down this road because why we think we can serve people who are having significant cardiac events or trauma in the field.
(28:50):
How come we can't figure out how to do this service better so we can treat them in the field?
All of these things started by curiosity with folks saying, I think we could do that better.
We just have to be open to hearing it as leaders.
You know, I tell our folks all the time.
My job is to block and tackle.
You're going to bring me the best ideas.
(29:12):
So I need to block those people who are in your way and make a hole for you so we can get it through.
I need to tackle those naysayers and get them out your way so we can continue to push these things forward.
So as leaders, we have to be open to curiosity because we get stuck sometime because we're comfortable.
We're complacent.
We can see retirement at the end of the road.
(29:32):
We don't want to do new stuff because it takes new energy and we may not have that energy.
I try to be the opposite of that.
That story, I feel so proud.
I feel so proud to be in Seattle and to have you as the head of our fire department and to know that there's so much innovation that saves lives.
So thank you for sharing that example.
(29:53):
So last question.
What is inspiring curiosity for you in your own personal life right now?
Well, you know, as I talk about retirement, that's one of the things that I'm a little nervous about.
I'm a little afraid about it.
I've never done that before.
So I'm trying to learn.
I'm trying to figure out what's next.
(30:16):
You know, so that's one thing.
My family has grown.
We have four kids and they're doing amazing.
We have three grandkids.
So I'm trying to figure out how to be a grandparent, you know.
And I realize and I've told this story a couple of times.
The first time I held my granddaughter, who turned one last August, I said, well, that was a very different feeling than when I held my grandsons.
(30:39):
And I don't know why that was.
So I'm trying to learn about that and trying to do that.
So all of those things in the future for me personally, because they're coming, you know.
We all want to get there.
But I don't want to get there and figure out, wow, this is a bad decision.
I'm kind of bored because I'm pretty active right now.
(31:00):
I do a lot of things.
So I'm trying to figure that part out for myself.
So thinking ahead of how you will continue that learning in retirement and also finding inspiration just within your family too.
And I love that you're asking yourself, why did I feel different from my grandson to my granddaughter?
That's one of the simple yet profound questions.
(31:22):
So thank you for sharing that.
Chief Harold, how can people get in touch with you?
Sure, feel free to reach out to any of our Seattle Fire Department connections.
But my email is always best, you know, harold.scoggins@seattle.gov. It's simple.
It's my name at seattle.gov. But if there's any questions anyone has for me, please feel free to reach out.
(31:46):
Chief Harold, thank you so much for being on the Curiosity at Work podcast.
I've learned so much about emergency services, about the fire department, about this.
It's just you've demystified so much for me and for our listeners and how Curiosity operates.
So thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it.
(32:07):
Thank you, listeners.
Remember to practice curiosity at work.
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Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!