January 20, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode of Curiosity at Work, Dr. Julie Pham interviews Shannon Drotning, Market President for the West Coast at Providence Health Plan. Shannon shares her inspiring journey from customer service representative to senior leader, emphasizing how curiosity drives her approach to leadership and customer-centered innovation. She discusses how Providence Health Plan delivers on its promise to "Know Me, Care for Me, Ease My Way," while fostering a culture of learning and empathy. Discover how small changes and a curious mindset can transform customer experiences and workplace culture in the healthcare industry.
Connect with Dr. Julie Pham:
- LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliepham2/
- Website:https://curiositybased.com/
- Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/juliephamphd/
Connect with Shannon Drotning:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannon-drotning/
- Website: https://www.providencehealthplan.com/
#ShannonDrotning #ProvidenceHealthPlan #CuriosityAtWork #HealthcareLeadership #CustomerService #Medicare #Innovation #Leadership #FeedbackCulture
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hi, welcome to the Curiosity at Work podcast.
(00:26):
I'm Julie Pham, and today we get to have a conversation with Shannon Drotning, who is the market president of the West Coast for Providence Health Plan.
Welcome Shannon.
Thanks, Julie.
So Shannon, can you tell us a bit about Providence Health Plan and what it is that you do, how many employees there are, where they're located, and just even the functions that you have in your company?
(00:52):
Yeah, yeah, great question.
So I work for Providence Health Plan.
We are an insurance company, we're a provider-sponsored insurance company.
So we're a part of Providence St. Joseph Health, a larger organization across seven states in the United States, and the health insurance plan, Providence Health Plan, is a company that's offered in Oregon, Washington, and California.
(01:17):
So we provide health insurance, medical insurance, whether someone is self-employed and seeking to purchase insurance on their own.
Maybe they're on Medicare, looking for something to supplement their Medicare coverage, or maybe they work for an employer and they receive insurance through their company.
So we have 1,500 people that work at the health plan inside of the larger Providence organization.
(01:43):
And we really, we work here in Portland, we work in Seattle, we work in Orange County, California.
So we kind of, what's really cool is we actually work in the cities that we serve, right?
We're a community-based health plan, we're very large in the state of Oregon, we have offices in Portland, we are also expanded into Washington, we've expanded into California.
(02:08):
So my team is a group of salespeople, so people that actually go and sit and work with seniors.
So the product that we concentrate on is Medicare, which I really love.
I mean, I've been working in Medicare since 94, I started out in customer service, actually at Providence Health Plan back then, and really love it.
(02:29):
And the reason I love Medicare is because you get to help people in such a confusing product, right?
Medicare is probably one of the most confusing insurance products.
So that's been a really highlight of my life.
And so people on my team actually go and sit with people, meet them at the Starbucks, right?
And talk about Medicare.
We also work with insurance agents, so there's independent agents out there, like maybe you buy auto insurance through an agent like a State Farm or an Allstate or something like that.
(02:58):
So we also have agents that represent our products.
So my team actually goes out and trains them or educates them and make sure they have what they need to work with the public.
So we have 27 people on our team.
So we're out in the field a lot, right?
So we're in our cars, on our cell phones, or on our laptops.
And then when we're working in an office, I'd say probably 75% of the time, if we're in on email, we're at home.
(03:24):
So I also bring my team in about once a quarter.
We have in-person meetings with our entire team.
So on the road, at home, and then in the office, we're kind of doing it all.
So then most of the interaction is actually external.
It's with your customers then.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
And Shannon, I love the story of you climbing upward within the company.
(03:48):
You don't hear that very often now, but you started as a customer service rep and now you're market president.
That's pretty inspirational.
Thank you.
I feel very blessed.
I feel it's been quite a journey being and working and deciding to work in Medicare.
And I really love it because I've done all the jobs that are on my team.
(04:10):
I've performed all those roles.
And so when I'm talking to my team about their challenges or about what they're passionate about, it really, I can resonate with them.
And it makes my job even that much more rewarding.
And Medicare and insurance, actually, it's one of those things we all need, insurance we all need, and yet it's such a mystery.
(04:33):
And so that's one of the reasons why I want to invite you on as well, so that you can kind of help demystify it for our listeners as well.
So now, when we talk about curiosity, we talk about it as a practice, and sometimes it's hard to practice.
Sometimes we don't want to practice curiosity.
(04:53):
Could you share a story of when it's been difficult for you personally to practice curiosity at work?
Yeah.
I think I've really noticed it more difficult as I've risen in the ranks.
So it's more difficult, I feel, as I've gone up personally.
(05:15):
And I think one of the reasons is finding those pockets of time in your day to practice curiosity is hard, right?
So as you move up, right, your meetings throughout the day are filled with strategic decision-making, right?
You're filled with working with your team, making sure they have everything that they need to be successful, right?
(05:40):
And I could find my entire day is filled, and I haven't had any intentional time to practice curiosity, right?
There's just no time on the calendar.
So I really think that it's been important for me to block out that time.
And I've really gotten better at blocking out all the different pockets of time that I need.
(06:05):
So is this an hour for curiosity, which includes reading?
And then I'll put down on the calendar item, well, I need to read, you know, I want to read this book, or I want to do that.
And not such a vague calendaring as practice curiosity this hour.
What's the actual outcome?
Am I going to sit and read this book?
Or while I'm in the car on the way to this meeting, I'm going to listen to this book.
(06:28):
So I think that calendar blocking, but very detailed calendar blocking has really helped me, but it's still super hard.
I mean, it feels like every single time, right, that you have some set aside time to look at to do something like that, that something comes up, right?
Somebody calls me on the phone and says, Hey, Shannon, I really want to talk to you about this.
(06:49):
Or one of our external agent calls and wants to chat about that another topic.
So I think that's been really, that's, that is always tough.
It's, I don't think you can ever solve it, right?
Just that constant reset yourself the next day and say, okay, here we go.
We're going to try again.
(07:10):
I think another challenge for me is it's like your best asset sometimes is your worst enemy, right?
So I've been in Medicare since I was in college.
There's been so many changes and so many ups and downs that I feel like, wow, I know everything about Medicare.
I've been in it so long.
(07:30):
I've seen all the changes.
I've seen everything come full circle, right?
All the ideas that have passed are now the new ideas that we have tried, you know, 25 years ago, right?
That people are bringing up as new ideas now, which is amazing, right?
Because you can always look at things from different lights.
But I think I say, well, I have no Medicare.
(07:50):
I've been in Medicare my whole life.
So, so I know how to answer this question or I know how to solve this problem.
But the reality is that times are different now.
Our healthcare is different.
The situation, right, we're in as a nation with healthcare costs going up so much and people's premiums going up so much.
And, you know, the rise of prescription drug costs, right?
(08:12):
With all of the new drugs that are coming out to help people, which is a wonderful thing, but the costs are high, right?
Medical costs are high, right?
Ever since post-pandemic, we've seen, right, the nursing costs are high, the supplies cost, just providing care.
So I can't look at everything in the same light that I used to look at it.
(08:33):
So what I might have thought my answer would be 10 years ago or 20 years ago, I have to step back and say, I have to look at other industries.
I can't just look inside of the Medicare industry and what I've known.
I have to study other industries and see how are they solving these problems and try to draw parallels between different industries in order to shed new light or a new way of thinking.
(08:59):
So I think that's a real challenge for me is that's awesome that I've been in this industry for so long, but I think that that sometimes can limit the thinking, right?
And so you really have to be very intentional about not letting that happen.
I can imagine that anyone who's been in any industry for so long, it's so easy to get complacent to say, I know this.
(09:19):
And yet that's actually, especially as the leader, you have to be you have to really push and and learn even more.
So and I'm also inspired that you look to other industries as well for inspiration and for curiosity.
Can you talk a bit more about that, especially as we move on to that next question of how do you how do you help foster curiosity on your team?
(09:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think that so I grew up in Seattle and I would say and I went to University of Washington and I took the bus down to downtown Seattle and I'd always go shopping at Nordstrom's on my lunch break.
And so I've always thought when I when I look to other industries, one big company or industry that I always looked at was Nordstrom's, right?
(10:04):
And how they're always like above and beyond to please the customer.
Right.
Stop at nothing to please the customer.
In fact, a person that I hired on my team a long time ago, I used to work and sell shoes at Nordstrom.
And so he would always we would always talk about that that customer service model.
(10:24):
And I think that's one place of being curious, like, how do they do that?
Like, how do they foster so much loyalty to their customers?
And that's been something that I've had in my mind ever since I started my career and really moved into management is how can my team do that?
Like we're the insurance industry.
I mean, how polar opposite could insurance and especially Medicare insurance be for going and buying this awesome stuff at Nordstrom's, you know?
(10:50):
So I've always said, how can we do that?
And it always started it always starts with the simple things.
Well, you're answering the phone right away.
You are solving their problem right away.
And if you can't solve it, you're telling or at least acknowledging the problem, researching it, calling back.
What's our responsiveness time frame?
Are we taking two days to respond to one of our external agents or customers?
(11:14):
No, no.
We're shortening that up.
Can we respond in an hour?
Can we respond right on that at that phone call and fix the problem?
So it's that constant review and listening to our phone calls.
How did we handle that customer?
Was there a better way?
Could we have made it easier?
So just the constant refinement and the quality control of our processes and how we speak to people and always trying to make it better, like it's a never ending process.
(11:43):
I mean, even, you know, reaching on this long length in my career, I'm still in talk to one of my directors today about, oh, how did we do on that call?
And is there something better we could do?
And we still identified something.
Even a seasoned rep that has been doing this for 10, 20 years on the phone call in the same job, there's always things to be learning.
(12:05):
So I think that that curiosity and curiosity takes time, right?
It takes time to record the phone calls, then go back, pull up a software system on our computers to listen to the phone calls, go through the whole thing.
It could have been a 20 minute phone call.
Right.
And then we debrief and then we talk about it.
I mean, that's not easy and it takes time, but it's so important because what we learned from those phone calls always just makes us better and better.
(12:34):
So taking the time to practice that curiosity and also allowing then your team, you're saying, no, we need to take time because sometimes it's rush, rush, rush, go, go, go.
And I really appreciate I wouldn't have thought of retail as being a place to draw inspiration from.
And yet it makes so much sense.
Is it in the insurance industry, is it more competitive now?
(12:57):
Is that so is customer service one of those things that you really have to use to differentiate between these different carriers?
Yeah, 100 percent.
So, I mean, one of the reasons that I work for Providence Health Plan and then I went into a different health insurance company for about 20 years and then I came back to Providence Health Plan five years ago.
(13:17):
And one of the reasons is because of the promise that Providence Health Plan has to all of its customers, which is to know me, care for me and ease my way.
And that is something that we live and breathe on a daily basis.
That's really our North Star, our why, you know, if you talk about Simon Sinek and why that's our why.
(13:40):
And that is one of the reasons I came back to Providence because that really does set us apart from the competitors.
So, you know, the insurance industry is so there's a lot of players, right?
There's national players out there.
There's national for profit players.
There's local regional health plans like ours.
And there's local regional nonprofits like ours that are community based.
(14:05):
We live and work in this community.
We're nonprofit and we're part of a larger provider hospital and doctor system, which really does make us different.
And I think that we're allowed that promise that we drive for every day.
That is where our company wants us to go.
That is what we expect of ourselves is to practice that curiosity so we can figure out what the customer needs.
(14:33):
We can figure out if they had a problem like there's always problems, right?
When we say, know me, care for me, ease my way.
Well, we make mistakes, right?
You might get a bill from a doctor that was wrong or maybe we forgot to send you your identity, your ID card or you didn't get your ID card in the mail, right?
Nothing is perfect, but it's that constant strive to fix things right away, to help the members right away and make them feel valued.
(15:01):
And the people and because we're in the community, we know what's going on.
We know that, oh, maybe that eye doctor down the road is closing its practice.
So we need to take care of all of our members that are seeing that eye doctor or that pharmacy maybe is opening up new pharmacies.
And so we can give access to our members.
So we know what's going on in the community.
And we practice curiosity of all of the levers and everything that our members might be experiencing in that community.
(15:27):
So we can head that off at the pass.
Right.
And really help them before things become problems.
Shannon, if you're on your team, what percentage would you say are in sales functions then?
Yeah, it's about 80 percent are in sales functions and the other 20 are administrative, compliance and management.
(15:49):
Because oftentimes when I think about sales, it's very relational, but it can also be got to meet my quota, boom, boom, boom.
And so when you are bringing on people, new people who are new to the Providence way of doing things, how do you how do you get them to slow down?
Because what you're talking about is really slowing down this ease, ease my way.
(16:10):
That's that's slowing things down.
Yeah, 100 percent.
Yep.
Sales is go, go, go.
And it's the balance.
I feel like I have a bit of a luxury right to work in Medicare because you have to have that balance of such a complex product, a complex product, a complex scenario for someone who's turning 65 or retiring and they're figuring out, oh, I'm on Medicare now.
(16:43):
I have to figure out what I need.
And really a salesperson in these types of role, what I hire for and where I see the best people are really people that are deeply dedicated to helping someone deeply dedicated to helping someone navigate.
(17:05):
I really don't view our sales team really as selling, even though they are called a sales team, they're called a salesperson.
If they go in and just sell our plan and aren't asking questions to the customer of all their needs, what kind of prescriptions are they taking?
What kind of doctors are they seeing?
(17:25):
What's most important?
Do they want to pay more self-insured and pay a lower premium or do they want to pay a higher premium?
So when they do need something, it's a lower cost.
What type of personality they have in relationship do they have to their health care?
Do they travel?
Do they have kids helping them or not?
Are they living alone?
There are just there's not one right plan for everybody.
(17:47):
So you have to really, really dig deep into someone and and have conversations with them and multiple conversations about what is right, right, because there is no one size fits all with insurance.
And it's really about it's about learning, not talking.
(18:07):
It's about the salesperson not talking.
It's about listening and finding out what are the most important things and then knowing how to apply and even knowing when to walk away.
I mean, if if our product isn't right for that person and it's clearly not right, then we can walk away and we can refer that to somebody else who would be better able to take care of that person.
(18:30):
So I've got two questions and you can decide what order to answer them in or to mix them up because they're related.
So one is, how do you recruit for that person who's going to slow down and ask questions?
Because what I'm hearing you say is you really need to hire for people who just genuinely care.
And then sometimes, I mean, they show up really well in the interview, but maybe maybe they still need some training.
(18:55):
Right.
And so then how do you train them?
Because you can't always just make sure to filter it all out.
Sometimes, oh, they still need support in in practicing curiosity with their with their clients.
So, yes, the two questions, how do you recruit for it?
And then how do you continue to train for it?
(19:15):
Yeah, great questions.
I think for how do we recruit for it?
One way, I mean, obviously, we look to people that have had experience in this industry.
First of all, that's that's a great way.
But there's not the pool is small.
I mean, the pool is small for people that love Medicare and no Medicare.
(19:36):
So you do often have to recruit for outside the industry.
I think that will actually add also if you were to also how do you recruit for people who care?
And for any sales role, if you were talking to other sales leaders in different industries, what would you what advice would you give them?
I think what advice I would give to people is making sure that when you're interviewing that you're setting up interviews to show that will showcase their curiosity.
(20:06):
I think that one practice that I've really honed in over the years was in interviews, giving people scenarios and having role play.
I think that's really important rather than just I mean, of course, in initial interviews, you're going through a list of making sure they're qualified and seeing their experience.
(20:26):
But as people move through the interview process, really setting up different types of role plays to really see where their head is at and how they would how they would interact with the customer based on your role play.
So, for example, let's take so I'm hiring somebody that's going to work with insurance agents and is going to train them and help them sell our products.
(20:48):
And also, we hope that our insurance agents sell Providence Health Plan Medicare products.
Right.
So how do we know that they would be good in working with that agent?
I like role plays such as this insurance agent down the street is selling more of our competitor.
How would you get them to sell more Providence plans?
(21:09):
And, you know, some people might answer, well, I would go and tell them we have 70,000 Medicare Advantage and I would tell them that therefore we have a four star rating by by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services and go down the laundry list of things that are on our website.
Right.
But that's not what I want to hear.
I want to hear that person say, oh, well, I would start by asking that insurance agent a ton of questions.
(21:37):
What are their goals?
What are their hopes?
What are their dreams?
Where do they see themselves in five to 10 years in their business?
What are the most important things in their business and for their employees?
Right.
To really have that curiosity, because insurance agents are going to sell different insurance companies for different reasons.
(21:57):
You have no idea why they're selling your competitor over yours.
It's it could be one of a hundred answers.
So I don't want to see someone in that interview just regurgitating statistics.
I would love it.
I love it when they push back on me and say, well, Shannon, what do you think about this?
And they start asking me questions.
And so let's say they they did they did all those scenarios really well and then they start working with you and then it's not quite it's not quite working out.
(22:26):
So how do you train that?
How do you foster curiosity then or or maybe identify why they're struggling?
I think that part of it is innate in the person.
So I have had examples in my career where I have tried and I'll go into a little more detail where I have tried to train that in people and sometimes it doesn't work out.
(22:49):
So I do there is part right.
Some of it is just how people are are wired and their personalities, right, whether they'll be a good fit for for a sales role or this type of role in practicing curiosity.
I think that for practicing curiosity, I think a great thing and I know a lot all of us have read it, but, you know, reading that book by Simon Sinek, Great Practicing Your Why, I think that is a great starting point.
(23:15):
I think that we don't they don't teach that in schools.
Right.
They don't teach that really in college, at least when I was growing up or I'm not seeing it where my son is going to high school.
So I think that having book clubs in our in our in our department meetings and talking about books and sharing articles, talking about experiences is really important to do that is to really to role model myself that I am posting on LinkedIn, different places where I practice curiosity and I'm modeling to the team, modeling behavior.
(23:51):
I think that also cross training is a great way.
So we're constantly cross training people within like if you're in one role, we're having you go out and ride along with other people that are in different roles because they can see things from different points of view and it really helps them.
Other ways to do that, I found, is to have people listening on the phones in customer service or in sales or in pharmacy to actually go and sit down and listen in on the phones and hear how the frontline staff is doing with our customers.
(24:26):
Right.
And that often sparks curiosity and enables them to take that out into their role.
I think just that fostering that constant culture of learning.
Really helps bring that out and bringing examples to people of of how you have learned helps as well.
(24:47):
Thank you so much, Shannon, that modeling it modeling that you still have to learn the book clubs, the the cross the cross training and then the listening in.
I think those are all really great tactical tips that can be applied to actually any sales organization.
Shannon, I'd love to know what is inspiring curiosity for you in your own life and it doesn't have to be about work.
(25:07):
I think there are a couple of things I'll give you a real time example now is my son is in he's a senior at high school here in Portland and we're looking at colleges.
So he applied for early admission and we, of course, we're getting just hammered in the mail with all the colleges that he applied to and all their emails and wanting him to take a look at them.
(25:28):
And I think that it's been a real eye opener for me in looking at the the education system right in the in the US and how things have changed since I myself went to college and what is important and what he should be looking at other than just the name of the college or where it's at or what degree they offered.
(25:56):
But how are they really fostering him as a whole person?
Like, do they have health and wellness resources at the school?
Right.
Are they providing an environment where he is going to learn about how to address maybe mental health challenges?
Right.
Or how he's going to address really being successful in life, not just successful at getting good grades or what job he's going to do, but is he going to know how to deal with his finances?
(26:31):
Is he going to know how to have healthy relationships?
Does will he know more about the world?
Will he know more about different cultures and different people in the world and different economies?
Right.
I mean, just that more broad mindset of the whole person.
I think it's things that I never thought about or probably my parents never thought about when we were looking at colleges back when I was there.
(26:53):
So I just think that's been just really interesting lately.
And then I think one thing for professional, but it's also for personal.
I just recently saw Malcolm Gladwell.
He was in Portland talking, the author of The Tipping Point and Outliers and all those books.
And I don't know why, but The Tipping Point is just a book that is just in my head all the time.
(27:17):
Like I'm always and I was talking to my husband about it.
He hadn't read it yet.
Talking about how the 80s crime in New York and how they were, you know, they were cleaning up the graffiti and cleaning up the broken windows and every time and how that was really changing the way small things, right, small things can make an impact on bigger problems.
(27:38):
And I always think about that when it applies to life problems or my work problems and kind of going back to work.
We were talking about being on the phones and practicing curiosity when we're on the phones and we're helping customers is how can small little things like saying, I will get back to you in 24 hours or I will help you with this problem right now.
(28:03):
How just little changes in our behaviors and how we talk to customers on the phone has really impacted our entire customer base and how they view us and the reputation that we now have in the community for being compassionate and putting members first because of just these small little practices that we have put in place when we talk to people on the phone.
(28:25):
So I just I just the tipping point has been a real influence on my life and I'm just constantly thinking about that.
Thank you, Shannon.
I think a theme of our conversation has been noticing small things and how they change over time.
And I appreciate what you said about schools and how they market to schools and then how we think about what is that education experience that is so different from what we experienced and what we prioritized and how that can relate to other aspects of our lives.
(28:52):
If we just basically think about how does it look in retail or how does it look in education and how does it look with this what I'm immediately working on?
So, Shannon, thank you so much for for sharing your insights.
How can people get in touch with you?
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn.
So Shannon Drotning, D-R-O-T-N-I-N-G and on LinkedIn.
(29:13):
And then if anybody wants information on Providence Health Plan, it's just www.providencehealthplan.com.
Thank you so much for sharing your insights on the Curiosity at Work podcast today.
We really appreciate this conversation.
Thank you, Julie.
I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hi, welcome to the Curiosity at Work podcast.
(00:26):
I'm Julie Pham, and today we get to have a conversation with Shannon Drotning, who is the market president of the West Coast for Providence Health Plan.
Welcome Shannon.
Thanks, Julie.
So Shannon, can you tell us a bit about Providence Health Plan and what it is that you do, how many employees there are, where they're located, and just even the functions that you have in your company?
(00:52):
Yeah, yeah, great question.
So I work for Providence Health Plan.
We are an insurance company, we're a provider-sponsored insurance company.
So we're a part of Providence St. Joseph Health, a larger organization across seven states in the United States, and the health insurance plan, Providence Health Plan, is a company that's offered in Oregon, Washington, and California.
(01:17):
So we provide health insurance, medical insurance, whether someone is self-employed and seeking to purchase insurance on their own.
Maybe they're on Medicare, looking for something to supplement their Medicare coverage, or maybe they work for an employer and they receive insurance through their company.
So we have 1,500 people that work at the health plan inside of the larger Providence organization.
(01:43):
And we really, we work here in Portland, we work in Seattle, we work in Orange County, California.
So we kind of, what's really cool is we actually work in the cities that we serve, right?
We're a community-based health plan, we're very large in the state of Oregon, we have offices in Portland, we are also expanded into Washington, we've expanded into California.
(02:08):
So my team is a group of salespeople, so people that actually go and sit and work with seniors.
So the product that we concentrate on is Medicare, which I really love.
I mean, I've been working in Medicare since 94, I started out in customer service, actually at Providence Health Plan back then, and really love it.
(02:29):
And the reason I love Medicare is because you get to help people in such a confusing product, right?
Medicare is probably one of the most confusing insurance products.
So that's been a really highlight of my life.
And so people on my team actually go and sit with people, meet them at the Starbucks, right?
And talk about Medicare.
We also work with insurance agents, so there's independent agents out there, like maybe you buy auto insurance through an agent like a State Farm or an Allstate or something like that.
(02:58):
So we also have agents that represent our products.
So my team actually goes out and trains them or educates them and make sure they have what they need to work with the public.
So we have 27 people on our team.
So we're out in the field a lot, right?
So we're in our cars, on our cell phones, or on our laptops.
And then when we're working in an office, I'd say probably 75% of the time, if we're in on email, we're at home.
(03:24):
So I also bring my team in about once a quarter.
We have in-person meetings with our entire team.
So on the road, at home, and then in the office, we're kind of doing it all.
So then most of the interaction is actually external.
It's with your customers then.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
And Shannon, I love the story of you climbing upward within the company.
(03:48):
You don't hear that very often now, but you started as a customer service rep and now you're market president.
That's pretty inspirational.
Thank you.
I feel very blessed.
I feel it's been quite a journey being and working and deciding to work in Medicare.
And I really love it because I've done all the jobs that are on my team.
(04:10):
I've performed all those roles.
And so when I'm talking to my team about their challenges or about what they're passionate about, it really, I can resonate with them.
And it makes my job even that much more rewarding.
And Medicare and insurance, actually, it's one of those things we all need, insurance we all need, and yet it's such a mystery.
(04:33):
And so that's one of the reasons why I want to invite you on as well, so that you can kind of help demystify it for our listeners as well.
So now, when we talk about curiosity, we talk about it as a practice, and sometimes it's hard to practice.
Sometimes we don't want to practice curiosity.
(04:53):
Could you share a story of when it's been difficult for you personally to practice curiosity at work?
Yeah.
I think I've really noticed it more difficult as I've risen in the ranks.
So it's more difficult, I feel, as I've gone up personally.
(05:15):
And I think one of the reasons is finding those pockets of time in your day to practice curiosity is hard, right?
So as you move up, right, your meetings throughout the day are filled with strategic decision-making, right?
You're filled with working with your team, making sure they have everything that they need to be successful, right?
(05:40):
And I could find my entire day is filled, and I haven't had any intentional time to practice curiosity, right?
There's just no time on the calendar.
So I really think that it's been important for me to block out that time.
And I've really gotten better at blocking out all the different pockets of time that I need.
(06:05):
So is this an hour for curiosity, which includes reading?
And then I'll put down on the calendar item, well, I need to read, you know, I want to read this book, or I want to do that.
And not such a vague calendaring as practice curiosity this hour.
What's the actual outcome?
Am I going to sit and read this book?
Or while I'm in the car on the way to this meeting, I'm going to listen to this book.
(06:28):
So I think that calendar blocking, but very detailed calendar blocking has really helped me, but it's still super hard.
I mean, it feels like every single time, right, that you have some set aside time to look at to do something like that, that something comes up, right?
Somebody calls me on the phone and says, Hey, Shannon, I really want to talk to you about this.
(06:49):
Or one of our external agent calls and wants to chat about that another topic.
So I think that's been really, that's, that is always tough.
It's, I don't think you can ever solve it, right?
Just that constant reset yourself the next day and say, okay, here we go.
We're going to try again.
(07:10):
I think another challenge for me is it's like your best asset sometimes is your worst enemy, right?
So I've been in Medicare since I was in college.
There's been so many changes and so many ups and downs that I feel like, wow, I know everything about Medicare.
I've been in it so long.
(07:30):
I've seen all the changes.
I've seen everything come full circle, right?
All the ideas that have passed are now the new ideas that we have tried, you know, 25 years ago, right?
That people are bringing up as new ideas now, which is amazing, right?
Because you can always look at things from different lights.
But I think I say, well, I have no Medicare.
(07:50):
I've been in Medicare my whole life.
So, so I know how to answer this question or I know how to solve this problem.
But the reality is that times are different now.
Our healthcare is different.
The situation, right, we're in as a nation with healthcare costs going up so much and people's premiums going up so much.
And, you know, the rise of prescription drug costs, right?
(08:12):
With all of the new drugs that are coming out to help people, which is a wonderful thing, but the costs are high, right?
Medical costs are high, right?
Ever since post-pandemic, we've seen, right, the nursing costs are high, the supplies cost, just providing care.
So I can't look at everything in the same light that I used to look at it.
(08:33):
So what I might have thought my answer would be 10 years ago or 20 years ago, I have to step back and say, I have to look at other industries.
I can't just look inside of the Medicare industry and what I've known.
I have to study other industries and see how are they solving these problems and try to draw parallels between different industries in order to shed new light or a new way of thinking.
(08:59):
So I think that's a real challenge for me is that's awesome that I've been in this industry for so long, but I think that that sometimes can limit the thinking, right?
And so you really have to be very intentional about not letting that happen.
I can imagine that anyone who's been in any industry for so long, it's so easy to get complacent to say, I know this.
(09:19):
And yet that's actually, especially as the leader, you have to be you have to really push and and learn even more.
So and I'm also inspired that you look to other industries as well for inspiration and for curiosity.
Can you talk a bit more about that, especially as we move on to that next question of how do you how do you help foster curiosity on your team?
(09:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think that so I grew up in Seattle and I would say and I went to University of Washington and I took the bus down to downtown Seattle and I'd always go shopping at Nordstrom's on my lunch break.
And so I've always thought when I when I look to other industries, one big company or industry that I always looked at was Nordstrom's, right?
(10:04):
And how they're always like above and beyond to please the customer.
Right.
Stop at nothing to please the customer.
In fact, a person that I hired on my team a long time ago, I used to work and sell shoes at Nordstrom.
And so he would always we would always talk about that that customer service model.
(10:24):
And I think that's one place of being curious, like, how do they do that?
Like, how do they foster so much loyalty to their customers?
And that's been something that I've had in my mind ever since I started my career and really moved into management is how can my team do that?
Like we're the insurance industry.
I mean, how polar opposite could insurance and especially Medicare insurance be for going and buying this awesome stuff at Nordstrom's, you know?
(10:50):
So I've always said, how can we do that?
And it always started it always starts with the simple things.
Well, you're answering the phone right away.
You are solving their problem right away.
And if you can't solve it, you're telling or at least acknowledging the problem, researching it, calling back.
What's our responsiveness time frame?
Are we taking two days to respond to one of our external agents or customers?
(11:14):
No, no.
We're shortening that up.
Can we respond in an hour?
Can we respond right on that at that phone call and fix the problem?
So it's that constant review and listening to our phone calls.
How did we handle that customer?
Was there a better way?
Could we have made it easier?
So just the constant refinement and the quality control of our processes and how we speak to people and always trying to make it better, like it's a never ending process.
(11:43):
I mean, even, you know, reaching on this long length in my career, I'm still in talk to one of my directors today about, oh, how did we do on that call?
And is there something better we could do?
And we still identified something.
Even a seasoned rep that has been doing this for 10, 20 years on the phone call in the same job, there's always things to be learning.
(12:05):
So I think that that curiosity and curiosity takes time, right?
It takes time to record the phone calls, then go back, pull up a software system on our computers to listen to the phone calls, go through the whole thing.
It could have been a 20 minute phone call.
Right.
And then we debrief and then we talk about it.
I mean, that's not easy and it takes time, but it's so important because what we learned from those phone calls always just makes us better and better.
(12:34):
So taking the time to practice that curiosity and also allowing then your team, you're saying, no, we need to take time because sometimes it's rush, rush, rush, go, go, go.
And I really appreciate I wouldn't have thought of retail as being a place to draw inspiration from.
And yet it makes so much sense.
Is it in the insurance industry, is it more competitive now?
(12:57):
Is that so is customer service one of those things that you really have to use to differentiate between these different carriers?
Yeah, 100 percent.
So, I mean, one of the reasons that I work for Providence Health Plan and then I went into a different health insurance company for about 20 years and then I came back to Providence Health Plan five years ago.
(13:17):
And one of the reasons is because of the promise that Providence Health Plan has to all of its customers, which is to know me, care for me and ease my way.
And that is something that we live and breathe on a daily basis.
That's really our North Star, our why, you know, if you talk about Simon Sinek and why that's our why.
(13:40):
And that is one of the reasons I came back to Providence because that really does set us apart from the competitors.
So, you know, the insurance industry is so there's a lot of players, right?
There's national players out there.
There's national for profit players.
There's local regional health plans like ours.
And there's local regional nonprofits like ours that are community based.
(14:05):
We live and work in this community.
We're nonprofit and we're part of a larger provider hospital and doctor system, which really does make us different.
And I think that we're allowed that promise that we drive for every day.
That is where our company wants us to go.
That is what we expect of ourselves is to practice that curiosity so we can figure out what the customer needs.
(14:33):
We can figure out if they had a problem like there's always problems, right?
When we say, know me, care for me, ease my way.
Well, we make mistakes, right?
You might get a bill from a doctor that was wrong or maybe we forgot to send you your identity, your ID card or you didn't get your ID card in the mail, right?
Nothing is perfect, but it's that constant strive to fix things right away, to help the members right away and make them feel valued.
(15:01):
And the people and because we're in the community, we know what's going on.
We know that, oh, maybe that eye doctor down the road is closing its practice.
So we need to take care of all of our members that are seeing that eye doctor or that pharmacy maybe is opening up new pharmacies.
And so we can give access to our members.
So we know what's going on in the community.
And we practice curiosity of all of the levers and everything that our members might be experiencing in that community.
(15:27):
So we can head that off at the pass.
Right.
And really help them before things become problems.
Shannon, if you're on your team, what percentage would you say are in sales functions then?
Yeah, it's about 80 percent are in sales functions and the other 20 are administrative, compliance and management.
(15:49):
Because oftentimes when I think about sales, it's very relational, but it can also be got to meet my quota, boom, boom, boom.
And so when you are bringing on people, new people who are new to the Providence way of doing things, how do you how do you get them to slow down?
Because what you're talking about is really slowing down this ease, ease my way.
(16:10):
That's that's slowing things down.
Yeah, 100 percent.
Yep.
Sales is go, go, go.
And it's the balance.
I feel like I have a bit of a luxury right to work in Medicare because you have to have that balance of such a complex product, a complex product, a complex scenario for someone who's turning 65 or retiring and they're figuring out, oh, I'm on Medicare now.
(16:43):
I have to figure out what I need.
And really a salesperson in these types of role, what I hire for and where I see the best people are really people that are deeply dedicated to helping someone deeply dedicated to helping someone navigate.
(17:05):
I really don't view our sales team really as selling, even though they are called a sales team, they're called a salesperson.
If they go in and just sell our plan and aren't asking questions to the customer of all their needs, what kind of prescriptions are they taking?
What kind of doctors are they seeing?
(17:25):
What's most important?
Do they want to pay more self-insured and pay a lower premium or do they want to pay a higher premium?
So when they do need something, it's a lower cost.
What type of personality they have in relationship do they have to their health care?
Do they travel?
Do they have kids helping them or not?
Are they living alone?
There are just there's not one right plan for everybody.
(17:47):
So you have to really, really dig deep into someone and and have conversations with them and multiple conversations about what is right, right, because there is no one size fits all with insurance.
And it's really about it's about learning, not talking.
(18:07):
It's about the salesperson not talking.
It's about listening and finding out what are the most important things and then knowing how to apply and even knowing when to walk away.
I mean, if if our product isn't right for that person and it's clearly not right, then we can walk away and we can refer that to somebody else who would be better able to take care of that person.
(18:30):
So I've got two questions and you can decide what order to answer them in or to mix them up because they're related.
So one is, how do you recruit for that person who's going to slow down and ask questions?
Because what I'm hearing you say is you really need to hire for people who just genuinely care.
And then sometimes, I mean, they show up really well in the interview, but maybe maybe they still need some training.
(18:55):
Right.
And so then how do you train them?
Because you can't always just make sure to filter it all out.
Sometimes, oh, they still need support in in practicing curiosity with their with their clients.
So, yes, the two questions, how do you recruit for it?
And then how do you continue to train for it?
(19:15):
Yeah, great questions.
I think for how do we recruit for it?
One way, I mean, obviously, we look to people that have had experience in this industry.
First of all, that's that's a great way.
But there's not the pool is small.
I mean, the pool is small for people that love Medicare and no Medicare.
(19:36):
So you do often have to recruit for outside the industry.
I think that will actually add also if you were to also how do you recruit for people who care?
And for any sales role, if you were talking to other sales leaders in different industries, what would you what advice would you give them?
I think what advice I would give to people is making sure that when you're interviewing that you're setting up interviews to show that will showcase their curiosity.
(20:06):
I think that one practice that I've really honed in over the years was in interviews, giving people scenarios and having role play.
I think that's really important rather than just I mean, of course, in initial interviews, you're going through a list of making sure they're qualified and seeing their experience.
(20:26):
But as people move through the interview process, really setting up different types of role plays to really see where their head is at and how they would how they would interact with the customer based on your role play.
So, for example, let's take so I'm hiring somebody that's going to work with insurance agents and is going to train them and help them sell our products.
(20:48):
And also, we hope that our insurance agents sell Providence Health Plan Medicare products.
Right.
So how do we know that they would be good in working with that agent?
I like role plays such as this insurance agent down the street is selling more of our competitor.
How would you get them to sell more Providence plans?
(21:09):
And, you know, some people might answer, well, I would go and tell them we have 70,000 Medicare Advantage and I would tell them that therefore we have a four star rating by by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services and go down the laundry list of things that are on our website.
Right.
But that's not what I want to hear.
I want to hear that person say, oh, well, I would start by asking that insurance agent a ton of questions.
(21:37):
What are their goals?
What are their hopes?
What are their dreams?
Where do they see themselves in five to 10 years in their business?
What are the most important things in their business and for their employees?
Right.
To really have that curiosity, because insurance agents are going to sell different insurance companies for different reasons.
(21:57):
You have no idea why they're selling your competitor over yours.
It's it could be one of a hundred answers.
So I don't want to see someone in that interview just regurgitating statistics.
I would love it.
I love it when they push back on me and say, well, Shannon, what do you think about this?
And they start asking me questions.
And so let's say they they did they did all those scenarios really well and then they start working with you and then it's not quite it's not quite working out.
(22:26):
So how do you train that?
How do you foster curiosity then or or maybe identify why they're struggling?
I think that part of it is innate in the person.
So I have had examples in my career where I have tried and I'll go into a little more detail where I have tried to train that in people and sometimes it doesn't work out.
(22:49):
So I do there is part right.
Some of it is just how people are are wired and their personalities, right, whether they'll be a good fit for for a sales role or this type of role in practicing curiosity.
I think that for practicing curiosity, I think a great thing and I know a lot all of us have read it, but, you know, reading that book by Simon Sinek, Great Practicing Your Why, I think that is a great starting point.
(23:15):
I think that we don't they don't teach that in schools.
Right.
They don't teach that really in college, at least when I was growing up or I'm not seeing it where my son is going to high school.
So I think that having book clubs in our in our in our department meetings and talking about books and sharing articles, talking about experiences is really important to do that is to really to role model myself that I am posting on LinkedIn, different places where I practice curiosity and I'm modeling to the team, modeling behavior.
(23:51):
I think that also cross training is a great way.
So we're constantly cross training people within like if you're in one role, we're having you go out and ride along with other people that are in different roles because they can see things from different points of view and it really helps them.
Other ways to do that, I found, is to have people listening on the phones in customer service or in sales or in pharmacy to actually go and sit down and listen in on the phones and hear how the frontline staff is doing with our customers.
(24:26):
Right.
And that often sparks curiosity and enables them to take that out into their role.
I think just that fostering that constant culture of learning.
Really helps bring that out and bringing examples to people of of how you have learned helps as well.
(24:47):
Thank you so much, Shannon, that modeling it modeling that you still have to learn the book clubs, the the cross the cross training and then the listening in.
I think those are all really great tactical tips that can be applied to actually any sales organization.
Shannon, I'd love to know what is inspiring curiosity for you in your own life and it doesn't have to be about work.
(25:07):
I think there are a couple of things I'll give you a real time example now is my son is in he's a senior at high school here in Portland and we're looking at colleges.
So he applied for early admission and we, of course, we're getting just hammered in the mail with all the colleges that he applied to and all their emails and wanting him to take a look at them.
(25:28):
And I think that it's been a real eye opener for me in looking at the the education system right in the in the US and how things have changed since I myself went to college and what is important and what he should be looking at other than just the name of the college or where it's at or what degree they offered.
(25:56):
But how are they really fostering him as a whole person?
Like, do they have health and wellness resources at the school?
Right.
Are they providing an environment where he is going to learn about how to address maybe mental health challenges?
Right.
Or how he's going to address really being successful in life, not just successful at getting good grades or what job he's going to do, but is he going to know how to deal with his finances?
(26:31):
Is he going to know how to have healthy relationships?
Does will he know more about the world?
Will he know more about different cultures and different people in the world and different economies?
Right.
I mean, just that more broad mindset of the whole person.
I think it's things that I never thought about or probably my parents never thought about when we were looking at colleges back when I was there.
(26:53):
So I just think that's been just really interesting lately.
And then I think one thing for professional, but it's also for personal.
I just recently saw Malcolm Gladwell.
He was in Portland talking, the author of The Tipping Point and Outliers and all those books.
And I don't know why, but The Tipping Point is just a book that is just in my head all the time.
(27:17):
Like I'm always and I was talking to my husband about it.
He hadn't read it yet.
Talking about how the 80s crime in New York and how they were, you know, they were cleaning up the graffiti and cleaning up the broken windows and every time and how that was really changing the way small things, right, small things can make an impact on bigger problems.
(27:38):
And I always think about that when it applies to life problems or my work problems and kind of going back to work.
We were talking about being on the phones and practicing curiosity when we're on the phones and we're helping customers is how can small little things like saying, I will get back to you in 24 hours or I will help you with this problem right now.
(28:03):
How just little changes in our behaviors and how we talk to customers on the phone has really impacted our entire customer base and how they view us and the reputation that we now have in the community for being compassionate and putting members first because of just these small little practices that we have put in place when we talk to people on the phone.
(28:25):
So I just I just the tipping point has been a real influence on my life and I'm just constantly thinking about that.
Thank you, Shannon.
I think a theme of our conversation has been noticing small things and how they change over time.
And I appreciate what you said about schools and how they market to schools and then how we think about what is that education experience that is so different from what we experienced and what we prioritized and how that can relate to other aspects of our lives.
(28:52):
If we just basically think about how does it look in retail or how does it look in education and how does it look with this what I'm immediately working on?
So, Shannon, thank you so much for for sharing your insights.
How can people get in touch with you?
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn.
So Shannon Drotning, D-R-O-T-N-I-N-G and on LinkedIn.
(29:13):
And then if anybody wants information on Providence Health Plan, it's just www.providencehealthplan.com.
Thank you so much for sharing your insights on the Curiosity at Work podcast today.
We really appreciate this conversation.
Thank you, Julie.
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