February 24, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode of Curiosity at Work, Dr. Julie Pham interviews Michael Byun, Executive Director of Asian Counseling and Referral Service (ACRS), about how curiosity fuels leadership, social justice, and community advocacy. With over 25 years of experience, Michael shares insights on managing a diverse, multilingual team, balancing urgent community needs with long-term policy work, and fostering a culture of learning in nonprofit organizations. Tune in to learn how curiosity helps drive meaningful change and create inclusive, impactful solutions for immigrant and refugee communities.
Connect with Dr. Julie Pham:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliepham2/
- Website: https://curiositybased.com/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/juliephamphd/
Connect with Tom Fay:
- Email: michaelb@acrs.org
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelbyun/
- Website: https://acrs.org/
#MichaelByun #ACRS #CuriosityAtWork #Leadership #SocialJustice #CommunityAdvocacy #NonprofitLeadership #PublicPolicy #MentalHealth #DiversityAndInclusion #WorkforceDevelopment #HybridWork
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of CuriosityBased.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Welcome to the Curiosity at Work podcast.
(00:25):
I'm Julie Pham.
I am super excited to get to chat with my friend, Michael Byun, who is the Executive Director of Asian Counseling and Referral Service.
Welcome Michael.
Hi, thanks for having me, Julie.
So Michael, ACRS, as Asian Counseling and Referral Service is known, is the largest health and social service agency dedicated to the Asian American, Native Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander community in Washington.
(00:56):
You have a big task, you have lots of responsibility, and so we'd love to hear who is part of ACRS, how many employees do you have, what are the different functions?
Please share.
Yeah, no, thanks for that question, and again, thanks for having me here.
So ACRS was founded in 1973, so we are over 50 years old here in the community, and as you had alluded to, we're a very diverse serving organization, and we provide a multitude of health and human services.
(01:28):
And so the staff at our organization are from all different kinds of communities and different places in the community.
They also represent all different ages, so we have a multi-generational workforce.
So there's about 320 plus folks working at ACRS, and I would say as much as the person who is the executive director who is in that role at this organization, I would say my job is as complex and challenging as the frontline staff that are working at ACRS.
(02:00):
So we have this shared understanding of that we are working together, and it's been wonderful to work with this community.
Everyone at our organization have a unique place for me in terms of their gifts and their talents that they bring to their role, and it's been just a lot of fun.
(02:21):
I know that for those outside the Asian American community, it could just be, oh, you're one big blob, it's all Chinese.
Can you actually share how many languages does your staff speak and how many languages and ethnicities does ACRS serve, just so that people get a sense of the diversity of this community?
(02:43):
Yeah, oh my goodness.
Yeah, there's over 40 plus languages that are spoken at ACRS, and one thing that really surprises me and is so wonderful and I'm proud of is the fact that there are a number of folks that are multilingual.
So not just in English and their native language, but they have access and proficiency in a multitude of other languages that they hold.
(03:04):
And so there's a number of folks in that way that are super talented and have multiple language backgrounds.
And so we're talking about folks representing East Asia, your traditional Korean, Chinese, and Japanese.
We also have folks representing our Southeast Asian community, Khmer, Vietnamese, Laotian.
(03:24):
We have Cham, we have Mian, and then you have South Asian community members that are speaking Punjabi, Telugu, and Hindi.
So we run the whole gamut in terms of the types of languages that are spoken at our organization, because they're truly reflective of our community and who they are.
The other important thing to recognize is that while we are originally were founded as an Asian serving organization, we also span in terms of services to our Pacific Islander communities as well.
(03:55):
So I think that's an important recognition.
Often smaller communities within our Asian Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander umbrella are often overlooked.
And I want to just make sure to recognize our amazing Pacific Islander communities here in Washington state.
I had no idea that there were over 40 languages spoken.
(04:15):
That's amazing.
Yeah, no, it's pretty incredible.
And I think language is critical in terms of bridging services and making sure that we're able to reach communities.
And the language is an important first step in building trust.
Certainly understanding cultural backgrounds, lived experiences are also critical and language is the first entry point.
(04:37):
And you also have all the different generations represented as well, right?
Could you just speak to that?
Yeah, I think like in many workplaces, including those in the for-profit sector, like in our companies and so forth, and also in our public sector, our nonprofit sector here in the organization that I serve, we have multiple generations.
(04:59):
I mean, we're talking about four generations under one roof.
And that offers some unique opportunities to build relationships, understanding with one another, and also provides unique challenges in terms of misunderstandings.
And so I think this topic around curiosity, which is part of your podcast today, makes a lot of sense that it really is a opportunity to ensure that all different folks that are around the table are open and kind to each other in terms of deepening their understanding of each other so that we can do work well together.
(05:34):
And is there a dominant generation that was the biggest generation that's represented among your workforce?
Yeah, so I think prior to the pandemic and before I came on board, I think that it was clear that we were pretty evenly divided in terms of baby boomers, Gen Xers, Gen Zs and millennials.
(05:54):
And I think more and more we are seeing disproportionately greater representation from our millennial and Gen Z communities.
And so part of I think what's important and also important to recognize is that with
every new successive generation that comes into the workplace, from my experiences, that
it offers us an opportunity to rethink our practices and to grow deeper into
(06:19):
understanding what our values are and how do we move our workplaces to be healthier
and more inclusive and also create spaces for folks to be creative and innovative.
And so I think that's been one of the key things in terms of the greater number of millennials and Gen Zers that are representing our workplaces that they bring and they question.
(06:42):
And that's fantastic.
And I think that's really critical to growing as an organization and also being a learning organization, is to be able to create spaces where people feel safe to ask questions and for the rest of the organization to embrace that as an opportunity to grow.
And I can imagine as being an organization that serves immigrant refugees, many
(07:06):
of your employees are also immigrant refugees themselves and that there are those
different experiences, those who grew up maybe children of immigrants and grew up in the
U.S. and really have more of that American identity versus those who came as refugees or
those who came maybe as first generation immigrants as well.
Is that the case?
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I would like to say that I think often when folks are looking from the outside in, in a community like ours, it's like, oh, they're all Asian.
(07:33):
But the reality is it's so much more complex in terms of generational divisions.
If you are a first generation coming to the U.S., you have different lived experience because you're bringing home country experience.
And then for those who are American born, right, they are straddling two different cultures.
They're the culture of their parents and then the culture that they live in here in the United States.
(07:59):
And so when you think about direct services and the work that we do, you can't just expect like one Chinese individual to be able to effectively serve a Chinese client.
You really have to think about those generational differences.
There's also power dynamics between elders and someone who's younger that are often kind of plays an important role in those interactions.
(08:23):
So that's been one of the most beautiful things in our organization is that our colleagues are fantastic at understanding and navigating those complex identities and understanding those power dynamics and relational dynamics that are in play that I think most average Americans may not really fully experience or appreciate.
(08:45):
And so that's been one of the unique things, I think, a gem of our organization is that our folks, regardless of their age, they know how to adapt and shift and change to meet the needs of community and where they are and where individuals are, where families are.
Listeners, one of the reasons why I really want to have Michael on is because the complexity of the community that you serve and that are also in your employee base, because when we talk about generation, it's not just about that Gen X, baby boomer, millennial.
(09:17):
It's also the generation that you came and your experience and all of these different identities that are layered.
And there's not just one or there's not just five or four simple experiences.
There are actually all of these variables that are mixed up.
And that also reflects the community that you serve as well.
Yeah.
And credibility is a really key element that comes into play in terms of our relationship with community and being able to deliver services.
(09:45):
And if you think about a situation like where there's a smaller population of community members, say, for example, the Mian, the community is already tight knit and they know each other.
So if you can imagine as a health and human service organization, one of our staff who's Mian serving their community, there's all there's all these interesting dynamics and relationships they have to navigate in order to ensure confidentiality, ensure safety, to make sure that the client feels safe and trusting in terms of the services that they deliver.
(10:18):
So that is also another unique element as it relates to working at a multicultural organization like ours, is that we have to navigate that unlike a mainstream organization.
Yes.
All of the different cultural needs in politics, actually, within each of those different communities as well.
(10:38):
And because they're also coming from having their own histories and trauma and just understanding they are different.
And so you it's direct services and it's health and social services.
So can you just give us an idea of the different functions that you have among your employees?
I mean, are there actually health practitioners direct or is it more of just referring it out to other health organizations?
(11:03):
Yeah.
So I think our name is a little bit misleading.
I think our name represents our origins, but the level of complexity of the services that we deliver is far more complex and it's expansive.
And so we go from the range of providing citizenship and naturalization services here in Washington state.
We're actually the largest provider of citizenship and naturalization services.
(11:27):
We provide employment assistance.
We provide congregate meal and socialization services for older adults.
We provide youth development programming.
We provide mental health for adults and young people and families.
We do recovery services, so substance use treatment services.
And then the other part, which is also unique for an organization like ours, is that we recognize that direct services needs to be paired with this important role around advocacy and social justice work.
(11:57):
And so we are heavily engaged in policy work and policy advocacy, thinking about and recognizing that direct services and needs and the wants of community are we can impact them at the greatest by an upstream strategy.
Working with policymakers and ensuring that there's resources for employment assistance or making sure that these policies aren't going to harm our communities.
(12:24):
So we are actively involved in advocacy within the scope of a 501c3 organization.
So you could have substance abuse counselors and policy advocates and they're all under the umbrella of ACRS.
All under one roof.
Yeah.
Wow.
That is quite that is quite diverse.
(12:46):
And and then I imagine that actually really does help provide the wide span of needs in the community as well.
Yeah, I think what we think about in terms of our workforce and our workplace is that our staff are really critical in delivering direct services to community.
And the fundamental understanding of the why we do it and why it's important is critical.
(13:09):
And that's what the policy advocacy work allows us to do.
And also, most of the people then, I assume, are working in person, then you don't do that much remote work because of the direct service need.
Yeah.
So I know that a lot of different organizations are looking at their return to work or return to the office policies.
(13:29):
And at our organization, one of our key values is recognizing that we need to invest in our our workforce and make sure that they're taken care of.
And part of that is to ensure that there is a good work life balance.
And for that reason, we are still in a very active hybrid workplace environment where a portion of individuals time is done at work and the other portion of it is done at home.
(13:53):
And I think that level of flexibility is something that is really an asset in terms of the way that we do work and in terms of how we are able to attract and retain individuals.
And so it sounds like you're also recognizing the need to avoid burnout because in direct services, in serving clients, it could easily lead to to burnout.
(14:16):
And yet having that hybrid actually helps mitigate that.
Yeah.
Caregiving is an incredibly emotionally taxing work.
And I think our organization recognizes that and the importance of taking care of our folks, making sure that they're doing well.
Because at the end of the day, we're not creating widgets.
We are in the service of providing people to people contact.
(14:40):
And I think that's something that is an important recognition at our organization.
And for that reason, we need to continue to invest in our workforce.
So, Michael, at Curiosity Base, we think of curiosity as a practice.
Sometimes you do it, sometimes you don't do it because it can be really hard to practice.
And I know in your work, there's a lot of pressure because you are funded publicly and privately.
(15:04):
There's so much need for your services right now, more than ever.
And there's so much change in our environment.
Can you talk about what just one thing that makes it really difficult for you to practice curiosity at work?
Yeah, I think you alluded to that in the prompt with the question.
(15:25):
I think there's this tension between urgency and then being able to do the deliberate work necessary to make sure that whatever you execute is done with really clear information that you're as you're moving forward.
And I think that comes to play at our organization, too, in terms of there is often like in terms of changes in our policies, people are just anxious to get answers and then being able to put a pause on that to say we need to have conversations to thoroughly understand the issue at hand and then be able to bring back to you an answer.
(16:03):
And I think we learned that actually during the pandemic and the racial reckoning work of the few years past.
And that has deeply informed us in terms of, OK, sometimes we just I mean, I know that folks are wanting answers, but actually it's far more important for us to take time and pause and understanding context to weigh the different options before we move forward.
(16:30):
And nowadays, I think even in this current environment, which unfortunately is very challenging for nonprofit organizations, especially those who are serving immigrants and refugees, not to be reactive is really critical in order for us to have meaningful and tangible options in terms of strategies to respond or to have solutions.
(16:53):
You mentioned earlier how this wide range of functions and some people who are so directly involved with working with clients where it just feels the need is now and then you've also got policy advocates.
Where that's going to take a long time in a relationship building.
And so does that ever come to a head just even among your employees and team members?
(17:18):
I think so.
I mean, I think one of the things we want to just acknowledge is that in terms of the
impact after the new Trump administration came into office, there were several executive
orders that came out and community were just, I think, scrambling to figure out how to
respond and likely in very similar fashion, our organization and the folks in internally
(17:39):
were also concerned about how we should move forward.
And for us, we didn't immediately respond in the first week because we recognized that we needed to see things settle into place before we have clarity around where we can move forward in and having answers and where we can't.
And so part of what I would like to just acknowledge is that those tensions, just acknowledging that they exist helps a lot.
(18:08):
So when you're talking with people to say, hey, we see this tension between X and Y and recognize that naming it is incredibly powerful.
Second is to say not we don't have the answers right now and we are working through and these are the steps we're taking to work through it.
And our goal is to get you an answer by this time.
That is also powerful.
(18:29):
So sometimes in communicating internally within our organization, one thing I found very powerful and sometimes historically, I think leaders feel like you're often in a position you're supposed to have answers.
But I think more and more folks are looking for a leader who is going to be transparent, let them know what we know, what we don't know and what kind of time we need.
(18:52):
They really respect that.
And I think the key is, though, to follow up.
Right.
If you made those commitments to say it's going to take a week or so to get your answers, being able to get them an answer at that time.
And even if there is no answer at the time, coming to that point in this, letting them know I still don't have answers.
(19:12):
And these are the reasons why this incredibly powerful leadership kind of behavior, I think, is really important.
I can imagine how difficult it is when there's so much urgency and yet that is when we need to pause even more.
So, Michael, can you also share what do you do to foster the practice of curiosity?
(19:34):
What's something, some tips, some tactic that you do with your team so that they can they can practice curiosity with one another at work?
Rather than kind of give you a prescriptive thing, I thought it might be helpful to just give a quick example of where we had a moment of like where curiosity was an incredibly powerful approach to how we address like a very at face value, something that feels like there's not a real clear answer.
(20:00):
And so we had a situation during the height of the pandemic when our Asian communities were being targeted for hate and bias.
And it was very clear that our front desk staff, who are the front face of the organization when clients come in and community members come in, they were worried.
They're worried that we're at the front desk.
(20:22):
We don't know if anyone's going to come in and they worried about their safety and their security.
And so at that immediate point of like identifying this concern, I think folks were like, we want some presence of a security individual to help to provide a level of assurance for the organization.
(20:42):
And as a social justice organization, we have a very unique analysis on law enforcement.
And one of the things that we were hesitant about just bringing in a security individual is concerns around use of lethal force, concerns around the impact of those who are black and brown.
And so on face value, based on our values as an organization, it felt like there wasn't an answer.
(21:07):
Like it was largely like a no, we can't because of these reasons, these values.
But what we did was took a pause and just did more, did a deeper inquiry into people's concerns and needs, and then figuring out that there is a path forward.
And in that process, I think we discovered a way to mitigate the impact of bringing a security person in, even though there's some misalignment with perhaps our values, but also trying to address the needs of the front desk staff.
(21:41):
And what we came to the conclusion was is that, yes, let's think about bringing someone in because the front desk folks are impacted.
They want some sense of safety and assurance.
And if we're concerned about the impact of a security person bringing in lethal force as part of their tools, why don't we use that as part of asking during the interview process, what is your philosophy around providing safety in an environment like our workplace?
(22:10):
And then the other mitigating strategy that we use is focusing on firms that are based in black and brown communities who understand these kinds of dynamics and are able to bring that analysis as part of their service as a security person that's present on the facility grounds.
(22:31):
So that's what is a great example where we're often as leaders or those in decision making and we're around the table, we already come with the presupposed understanding of what the barriers are and what can or cannot be done.
But when we start to force ourselves to set that aside, to go through a process of inquiry and curiosity, I think we discover that there's actually a lot more a lot more opportunities for solutions at hand than we think.
(22:59):
And so that's that's an important reminder for any moment that I find myself personally in a conversation, either with a one on one with an individual colleague or in a group situation.
If I start to feel a sense of reaction, like I already have an answer, that's when I know I need to pause and keep my mouth shut and continue to listen, because the more I listen and if there are things that don't quite are clear to me, I I ask questions.
(23:29):
I constantly ask questions or or just ask in terms of I'm curious, is this is this what you meant or getting clarification?
And I find myself more often than not that the original kind of assumptions were totally wrong.
So those are things that I think about on a regular basis in terms of how I show up as a leader.
(23:49):
And I know that many of our colleagues practice that as well.
Thank you so much for sharing that very specific example.
And I actually love that part where it's just, oh, so I my my assumptions were wrong.
There was something that I got to learn.
And what you were saying about having those conversations and having them together because someone can say I'm scared.
(24:11):
Another person can assume, well, I know why you're scared is actually in that back and forth.
We might even discover both all these different sides, discover reasons that we hadn't even thought about.
But it was through that conversation.
Yeah, I agree.
And I think this idea, I mean, this is a concept of like there are multiple truths that are around the table.
(24:31):
Right.
So that.
I think really is enlightening of the fact that I think it's really important to understand what each individual's truth looks like to better understand where they're coming from.
And I think that's incredibly powerful.
Just when one acknowledges that there are there's not a clearly right who's right or who's wrong in those situations.
(24:55):
And I think another tip that I got from what you just shared is you don't have to know all the things that you want just by asking, what is your philosophy?
Yes.
Then you actually get to learn all of these different things because you're not an expert on security.
No, I'm not.
Again, that's the part of, I think, leadership practice that I've seen more and more, whether within myself or among my peers or in community, is that actually it's far, I think it's a powerful sign of a good leader if they admit and acknowledge where they don't know things and they're inviting people to provide their expertise and their perspective.
(25:38):
And it's surprising, I think part of that curiosity approach to situations also reveals like some unique talents or backgrounds or experiences that other folks have that they're able to bring to the table.
And you're like, wow, I didn't really know that about you.
That's cool.
Right.
And and I think that's very powerful and it creates a space where people feel like they can contribute and they feel safe to do so.
(26:04):
So.
I know that you there's so much demand for the work and there's also you were saying, hey, there's burnout, so there is also people who just leave because they need to, they can't do this anymore.
So you're constantly recruiting.
What do you look for?
How do you identify curiosity in people that you're going to bring in?
Because with such a diverse workforce, that curiosity is so important.
(26:26):
So what are your favorite strategies to identify curiosity?
Yeah, I think this is very timely question because we've been in a series of filling in director positions at our organization and something that I've been reflecting on in those processes that I've been part of.
And one thing that I appreciate is when a candidate is during the Q&A section where they have the opportunity to ask the organization question, to see the types of questions that they ask us and also to see the pace in terms of how they ask those questions, to see if their personalities align with the culture of the organization.
(27:09):
There's a good fit.
So there's that one set of evaluation.
But the other is in the nature of the questions that they ask, it shows that they've done their homework.
They're listening to the interview questions to assess what this organization's values are.
And so they're deeply involved in doing the synthesis of that information to formulate questions that are very thoughtful and specific.
(27:35):
And that is a great sign for me personally, that this person is invested in learning and deepening their understanding of the organization based on the way that they ask the question and the types of questions that they ask.
Do you have any question that was asked that was kind of a standout for you that maybe took you by surprise?
(27:56):
Yeah, I think part of it is one of the one of the key things of our organization, we're a social justice organization.
And so when someone is able to articulate back recognition that we're not just a health and human services nonprofit, we have this unique element of social service work that we and social justice work that we do.
And then when they're able to present a question that says and acknowledges that, that's incredibly powerful for me because it shows that they have clarity around what our mission and our values are.
(28:28):
And that that is a clear indication not only in terms of fit, but also that they're interested in deepening their knowledge around the work.
Thank you, Michael.
So last question.
Yes.
What is inspiring curiosity for you in your own life?
And this doesn't have to be about work.
Yeah, I mean, I think when you ask that question, I think about the fact that I really enjoy podcasts.
(28:53):
I have several that I follow and one of them that I enjoy a lot because it offers some incredible insight is The Hidden Brain by Shankar Vedantam.
And I love all the episodes that they presented on that podcast series.
And most recently, there was this discussion around how to navigate periods of great transitions or challenges or chaos.
(29:18):
And it gave some very tangible ways of thinking about this work.
So the work that we do as a social justice organization in this current environment.
And and one of the things that they said is that rest and the moment of taking some time
away from the movement is as important as being in deep in the movement, because what
(29:41):
happens is that you are recovering and you're needing time and space to recover and also
recognizing that while you're taking time to recover, there are others in the movement
that are moving forward on those social justice work.
So knowing that you're not alone and that you don't have to hold the forward movement alone, you can take periods of time of rest, knowing that there are others with you that are continuing to move it forward.
(30:05):
And I thought that was really powerful.
And that's something that I shared with our colleagues, because this can be incredibly emotionally taxing moment, not only in the nature of their work, but in this particular moment.
So that's been a really helpful guiding advice from the podcast.
Yeah, that's one of my favorite podcasts as well.
And I really resonate with the idea of just rest.
(30:29):
And sometimes that's where we actually find the deepest inspiration for curiosity, because we aren't just charging ahead and doing the work.
Correct.
Correct.
And I think there's also this piece around we're in a workplace environment and there's a culture around how you got to put in the umpteen hours in the office in order to have impact.
And I think we're trying to intentionally push against that, recognizing that's not necessary in order to do really, really good work.
(30:56):
And I think that's something that we continue to practice.
And it's often very difficult to do because of all the kind of societal pressures around this.
And I think but I think it's an important practice.
It made me think of there's that work, work smart, not just hard.
But there's also work with intention.
(31:16):
Yes.
Yep.
That's really what I'm getting from our conversation today.
Yeah.
Michael, how do people get in touch with you?
Yeah, we have our website, which is www.acrs.org.
And people are always welcome if they have any inquiries to reach out to me directly.
My email address is michaelb, as in boy, @ acrs.org.
(31:39):
Michael, thank you so much for sharing your insights with us at the Curiosity at Work podcast today.
We really enjoyed this conversation.
Thank you, Julie.
I had a great time.
Listeners, practice curiosity in the world.
I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of CuriosityBased.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Welcome to the Curiosity at Work podcast.
(00:25):
I'm Julie Pham.
I am super excited to get to chat with my friend, Michael Byun, who is the Executive Director of Asian Counseling and Referral Service.
Welcome Michael.
Hi, thanks for having me, Julie.
So Michael, ACRS, as Asian Counseling and Referral Service is known, is the largest health and social service agency dedicated to the Asian American, Native Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander community in Washington.
(00:56):
You have a big task, you have lots of responsibility, and so we'd love to hear who is part of ACRS, how many employees do you have, what are the different functions?
Please share.
Yeah, no, thanks for that question, and again, thanks for having me here.
So ACRS was founded in 1973, so we are over 50 years old here in the community, and as you had alluded to, we're a very diverse serving organization, and we provide a multitude of health and human services.
(01:28):
And so the staff at our organization are from all different kinds of communities and different places in the community.
They also represent all different ages, so we have a multi-generational workforce.
So there's about 320 plus folks working at ACRS, and I would say as much as the person who is the executive director who is in that role at this organization, I would say my job is as complex and challenging as the frontline staff that are working at ACRS.
(02:00):
So we have this shared understanding of that we are working together, and it's been wonderful to work with this community.
Everyone at our organization have a unique place for me in terms of their gifts and their talents that they bring to their role, and it's been just a lot of fun.
(02:21):
I know that for those outside the Asian American community, it could just be, oh, you're one big blob, it's all Chinese.
Can you actually share how many languages does your staff speak and how many languages and ethnicities does ACRS serve, just so that people get a sense of the diversity of this community?
(02:43):
Yeah, oh my goodness.
Yeah, there's over 40 plus languages that are spoken at ACRS, and one thing that really surprises me and is so wonderful and I'm proud of is the fact that there are a number of folks that are multilingual.
So not just in English and their native language, but they have access and proficiency in a multitude of other languages that they hold.
(03:04):
And so there's a number of folks in that way that are super talented and have multiple language backgrounds.
And so we're talking about folks representing East Asia, your traditional Korean, Chinese, and Japanese.
We also have folks representing our Southeast Asian community, Khmer, Vietnamese, Laotian.
(03:24):
We have Cham, we have Mian, and then you have South Asian community members that are speaking Punjabi, Telugu, and Hindi.
So we run the whole gamut in terms of the types of languages that are spoken at our organization, because they're truly reflective of our community and who they are.
The other important thing to recognize is that while we are originally were founded as an Asian serving organization, we also span in terms of services to our Pacific Islander communities as well.
(03:55):
So I think that's an important recognition.
Often smaller communities within our Asian Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander umbrella are often overlooked.
And I want to just make sure to recognize our amazing Pacific Islander communities here in Washington state.
I had no idea that there were over 40 languages spoken.
(04:15):
That's amazing.
Yeah, no, it's pretty incredible.
And I think language is critical in terms of bridging services and making sure that we're able to reach communities.
And the language is an important first step in building trust.
Certainly understanding cultural backgrounds, lived experiences are also critical and language is the first entry point.
(04:37):
And you also have all the different generations represented as well, right?
Could you just speak to that?
Yeah, I think like in many workplaces, including those in the for-profit sector, like in our companies and so forth, and also in our public sector, our nonprofit sector here in the organization that I serve, we have multiple generations.
(04:59):
I mean, we're talking about four generations under one roof.
And that offers some unique opportunities to build relationships, understanding with one another, and also provides unique challenges in terms of misunderstandings.
And so I think this topic around curiosity, which is part of your podcast today, makes a lot of sense that it really is a opportunity to ensure that all different folks that are around the table are open and kind to each other in terms of deepening their understanding of each other so that we can do work well together.
(05:34):
And is there a dominant generation that was the biggest generation that's represented among your workforce?
Yeah, so I think prior to the pandemic and before I came on board, I think that it was clear that we were pretty evenly divided in terms of baby boomers, Gen Xers, Gen Zs and millennials.
(05:54):
And I think more and more we are seeing disproportionately greater representation from our millennial and Gen Z communities.
And so part of I think what's important and also important to recognize is that with
every new successive generation that comes into the workplace, from my experiences, that
it offers us an opportunity to rethink our practices and to grow deeper into
(06:19):
understanding what our values are and how do we move our workplaces to be healthier
and more inclusive and also create spaces for folks to be creative and innovative.
And so I think that's been one of the key things in terms of the greater number of millennials and Gen Zers that are representing our workplaces that they bring and they question.
(06:42):
And that's fantastic.
And I think that's really critical to growing as an organization and also being a learning organization, is to be able to create spaces where people feel safe to ask questions and for the rest of the organization to embrace that as an opportunity to grow.
And I can imagine as being an organization that serves immigrant refugees, many
(07:06):
of your employees are also immigrant refugees themselves and that there are those
different experiences, those who grew up maybe children of immigrants and grew up in the
U.S. and really have more of that American identity versus those who came as refugees or
those who came maybe as first generation immigrants as well.
Is that the case?
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I would like to say that I think often when folks are looking from the outside in, in a community like ours, it's like, oh, they're all Asian.
(07:33):
But the reality is it's so much more complex in terms of generational divisions.
If you are a first generation coming to the U.S., you have different lived experience because you're bringing home country experience.
And then for those who are American born, right, they are straddling two different cultures.
They're the culture of their parents and then the culture that they live in here in the United States.
(07:59):
And so when you think about direct services and the work that we do, you can't just expect like one Chinese individual to be able to effectively serve a Chinese client.
You really have to think about those generational differences.
There's also power dynamics between elders and someone who's younger that are often kind of plays an important role in those interactions.
(08:23):
So that's been one of the most beautiful things in our organization is that our colleagues are fantastic at understanding and navigating those complex identities and understanding those power dynamics and relational dynamics that are in play that I think most average Americans may not really fully experience or appreciate.
(08:45):
And so that's been one of the unique things, I think, a gem of our organization is that our folks, regardless of their age, they know how to adapt and shift and change to meet the needs of community and where they are and where individuals are, where families are.
Listeners, one of the reasons why I really want to have Michael on is because the complexity of the community that you serve and that are also in your employee base, because when we talk about generation, it's not just about that Gen X, baby boomer, millennial.
(09:17):
It's also the generation that you came and your experience and all of these different identities that are layered.
And there's not just one or there's not just five or four simple experiences.
There are actually all of these variables that are mixed up.
And that also reflects the community that you serve as well.
Yeah.
And credibility is a really key element that comes into play in terms of our relationship with community and being able to deliver services.
(09:45):
And if you think about a situation like where there's a smaller population of community members, say, for example, the Mian, the community is already tight knit and they know each other.
So if you can imagine as a health and human service organization, one of our staff who's Mian serving their community, there's all there's all these interesting dynamics and relationships they have to navigate in order to ensure confidentiality, ensure safety, to make sure that the client feels safe and trusting in terms of the services that they deliver.
(10:18):
So that is also another unique element as it relates to working at a multicultural organization like ours, is that we have to navigate that unlike a mainstream organization.
Yes.
All of the different cultural needs in politics, actually, within each of those different communities as well.
(10:38):
And because they're also coming from having their own histories and trauma and just understanding they are different.
And so you it's direct services and it's health and social services.
So can you just give us an idea of the different functions that you have among your employees?
I mean, are there actually health practitioners direct or is it more of just referring it out to other health organizations?
(11:03):
Yeah.
So I think our name is a little bit misleading.
I think our name represents our origins, but the level of complexity of the services that we deliver is far more complex and it's expansive.
And so we go from the range of providing citizenship and naturalization services here in Washington state.
We're actually the largest provider of citizenship and naturalization services.
(11:27):
We provide employment assistance.
We provide congregate meal and socialization services for older adults.
We provide youth development programming.
We provide mental health for adults and young people and families.
We do recovery services, so substance use treatment services.
And then the other part, which is also unique for an organization like ours, is that we recognize that direct services needs to be paired with this important role around advocacy and social justice work.
(11:57):
And so we are heavily engaged in policy work and policy advocacy, thinking about and recognizing that direct services and needs and the wants of community are we can impact them at the greatest by an upstream strategy.
Working with policymakers and ensuring that there's resources for employment assistance or making sure that these policies aren't going to harm our communities.
(12:24):
So we are actively involved in advocacy within the scope of a 501c3 organization.
So you could have substance abuse counselors and policy advocates and they're all under the umbrella of ACRS.
All under one roof.
Yeah.
Wow.
That is quite that is quite diverse.
(12:46):
And and then I imagine that actually really does help provide the wide span of needs in the community as well.
Yeah, I think what we think about in terms of our workforce and our workplace is that our staff are really critical in delivering direct services to community.
And the fundamental understanding of the why we do it and why it's important is critical.
(13:09):
And that's what the policy advocacy work allows us to do.
And also, most of the people then, I assume, are working in person, then you don't do that much remote work because of the direct service need.
Yeah.
So I know that a lot of different organizations are looking at their return to work or return to the office policies.
(13:29):
And at our organization, one of our key values is recognizing that we need to invest in our our workforce and make sure that they're taken care of.
And part of that is to ensure that there is a good work life balance.
And for that reason, we are still in a very active hybrid workplace environment where a portion of individuals time is done at work and the other portion of it is done at home.
(13:53):
And I think that level of flexibility is something that is really an asset in terms of the way that we do work and in terms of how we are able to attract and retain individuals.
And so it sounds like you're also recognizing the need to avoid burnout because in direct services, in serving clients, it could easily lead to to burnout.
(14:16):
And yet having that hybrid actually helps mitigate that.
Yeah.
Caregiving is an incredibly emotionally taxing work.
And I think our organization recognizes that and the importance of taking care of our folks, making sure that they're doing well.
Because at the end of the day, we're not creating widgets.
We are in the service of providing people to people contact.
(14:40):
And I think that's something that is an important recognition at our organization.
And for that reason, we need to continue to invest in our workforce.
So, Michael, at Curiosity Base, we think of curiosity as a practice.
Sometimes you do it, sometimes you don't do it because it can be really hard to practice.
And I know in your work, there's a lot of pressure because you are funded publicly and privately.
(15:04):
There's so much need for your services right now, more than ever.
And there's so much change in our environment.
Can you talk about what just one thing that makes it really difficult for you to practice curiosity at work?
Yeah, I think you alluded to that in the prompt with the question.
(15:25):
I think there's this tension between urgency and then being able to do the deliberate work necessary to make sure that whatever you execute is done with really clear information that you're as you're moving forward.
And I think that comes to play at our organization, too, in terms of there is often like in terms of changes in our policies, people are just anxious to get answers and then being able to put a pause on that to say we need to have conversations to thoroughly understand the issue at hand and then be able to bring back to you an answer.
(16:03):
And I think we learned that actually during the pandemic and the racial reckoning work of the few years past.
And that has deeply informed us in terms of, OK, sometimes we just I mean, I know that folks are wanting answers, but actually it's far more important for us to take time and pause and understanding context to weigh the different options before we move forward.
(16:30):
And nowadays, I think even in this current environment, which unfortunately is very challenging for nonprofit organizations, especially those who are serving immigrants and refugees, not to be reactive is really critical in order for us to have meaningful and tangible options in terms of strategies to respond or to have solutions.
(16:53):
You mentioned earlier how this wide range of functions and some people who are so directly involved with working with clients where it just feels the need is now and then you've also got policy advocates.
Where that's going to take a long time in a relationship building.
And so does that ever come to a head just even among your employees and team members?
(17:18):
I think so.
I mean, I think one of the things we want to just acknowledge is that in terms of the
impact after the new Trump administration came into office, there were several executive
orders that came out and community were just, I think, scrambling to figure out how to
respond and likely in very similar fashion, our organization and the folks in internally
(17:39):
were also concerned about how we should move forward.
And for us, we didn't immediately respond in the first week because we recognized that we needed to see things settle into place before we have clarity around where we can move forward in and having answers and where we can't.
And so part of what I would like to just acknowledge is that those tensions, just acknowledging that they exist helps a lot.
(18:08):
So when you're talking with people to say, hey, we see this tension between X and Y and recognize that naming it is incredibly powerful.
Second is to say not we don't have the answers right now and we are working through and these are the steps we're taking to work through it.
And our goal is to get you an answer by this time.
That is also powerful.
(18:29):
So sometimes in communicating internally within our organization, one thing I found very powerful and sometimes historically, I think leaders feel like you're often in a position you're supposed to have answers.
But I think more and more folks are looking for a leader who is going to be transparent, let them know what we know, what we don't know and what kind of time we need.
(18:52):
They really respect that.
And I think the key is, though, to follow up.
Right.
If you made those commitments to say it's going to take a week or so to get your answers, being able to get them an answer at that time.
And even if there is no answer at the time, coming to that point in this, letting them know I still don't have answers.
(19:12):
And these are the reasons why this incredibly powerful leadership kind of behavior, I think, is really important.
I can imagine how difficult it is when there's so much urgency and yet that is when we need to pause even more.
So, Michael, can you also share what do you do to foster the practice of curiosity?
(19:34):
What's something, some tips, some tactic that you do with your team so that they can they can practice curiosity with one another at work?
Rather than kind of give you a prescriptive thing, I thought it might be helpful to just give a quick example of where we had a moment of like where curiosity was an incredibly powerful approach to how we address like a very at face value, something that feels like there's not a real clear answer.
(20:00):
And so we had a situation during the height of the pandemic when our Asian communities were being targeted for hate and bias.
And it was very clear that our front desk staff, who are the front face of the organization when clients come in and community members come in, they were worried.
They're worried that we're at the front desk.
(20:22):
We don't know if anyone's going to come in and they worried about their safety and their security.
And so at that immediate point of like identifying this concern, I think folks were like, we want some presence of a security individual to help to provide a level of assurance for the organization.
(20:42):
And as a social justice organization, we have a very unique analysis on law enforcement.
And one of the things that we were hesitant about just bringing in a security individual is concerns around use of lethal force, concerns around the impact of those who are black and brown.
And so on face value, based on our values as an organization, it felt like there wasn't an answer.
(21:07):
Like it was largely like a no, we can't because of these reasons, these values.
But what we did was took a pause and just did more, did a deeper inquiry into people's concerns and needs, and then figuring out that there is a path forward.
And in that process, I think we discovered a way to mitigate the impact of bringing a security person in, even though there's some misalignment with perhaps our values, but also trying to address the needs of the front desk staff.
(21:41):
And what we came to the conclusion was is that, yes, let's think about bringing someone in because the front desk folks are impacted.
They want some sense of safety and assurance.
And if we're concerned about the impact of a security person bringing in lethal force as part of their tools, why don't we use that as part of asking during the interview process, what is your philosophy around providing safety in an environment like our workplace?
(22:10):
And then the other mitigating strategy that we use is focusing on firms that are based in black and brown communities who understand these kinds of dynamics and are able to bring that analysis as part of their service as a security person that's present on the facility grounds.
(22:31):
So that's what is a great example where we're often as leaders or those in decision making and we're around the table, we already come with the presupposed understanding of what the barriers are and what can or cannot be done.
But when we start to force ourselves to set that aside, to go through a process of inquiry and curiosity, I think we discover that there's actually a lot more a lot more opportunities for solutions at hand than we think.
(22:59):
And so that's that's an important reminder for any moment that I find myself personally in a conversation, either with a one on one with an individual colleague or in a group situation.
If I start to feel a sense of reaction, like I already have an answer, that's when I know I need to pause and keep my mouth shut and continue to listen, because the more I listen and if there are things that don't quite are clear to me, I I ask questions.
(23:29):
I constantly ask questions or or just ask in terms of I'm curious, is this is this what you meant or getting clarification?
And I find myself more often than not that the original kind of assumptions were totally wrong.
So those are things that I think about on a regular basis in terms of how I show up as a leader.
(23:49):
And I know that many of our colleagues practice that as well.
Thank you so much for sharing that very specific example.
And I actually love that part where it's just, oh, so I my my assumptions were wrong.
There was something that I got to learn.
And what you were saying about having those conversations and having them together because someone can say I'm scared.
(24:11):
Another person can assume, well, I know why you're scared is actually in that back and forth.
We might even discover both all these different sides, discover reasons that we hadn't even thought about.
But it was through that conversation.
Yeah, I agree.
And I think this idea, I mean, this is a concept of like there are multiple truths that are around the table.
(24:31):
Right.
So that.
I think really is enlightening of the fact that I think it's really important to understand what each individual's truth looks like to better understand where they're coming from.
And I think that's incredibly powerful.
Just when one acknowledges that there are there's not a clearly right who's right or who's wrong in those situations.
(24:55):
And I think another tip that I got from what you just shared is you don't have to know all the things that you want just by asking, what is your philosophy?
Yes.
Then you actually get to learn all of these different things because you're not an expert on security.
No, I'm not.
Again, that's the part of, I think, leadership practice that I've seen more and more, whether within myself or among my peers or in community, is that actually it's far, I think it's a powerful sign of a good leader if they admit and acknowledge where they don't know things and they're inviting people to provide their expertise and their perspective.
(25:38):
And it's surprising, I think part of that curiosity approach to situations also reveals like some unique talents or backgrounds or experiences that other folks have that they're able to bring to the table.
And you're like, wow, I didn't really know that about you.
That's cool.
Right.
And and I think that's very powerful and it creates a space where people feel like they can contribute and they feel safe to do so.
(26:04):
So.
I know that you there's so much demand for the work and there's also you were saying, hey, there's burnout, so there is also people who just leave because they need to, they can't do this anymore.
So you're constantly recruiting.
What do you look for?
How do you identify curiosity in people that you're going to bring in?
Because with such a diverse workforce, that curiosity is so important.
(26:26):
So what are your favorite strategies to identify curiosity?
Yeah, I think this is very timely question because we've been in a series of filling in director positions at our organization and something that I've been reflecting on in those processes that I've been part of.
And one thing that I appreciate is when a candidate is during the Q&A section where they have the opportunity to ask the organization question, to see the types of questions that they ask us and also to see the pace in terms of how they ask those questions, to see if their personalities align with the culture of the organization.
(27:09):
There's a good fit.
So there's that one set of evaluation.
But the other is in the nature of the questions that they ask, it shows that they've done their homework.
They're listening to the interview questions to assess what this organization's values are.
And so they're deeply involved in doing the synthesis of that information to formulate questions that are very thoughtful and specific.
(27:35):
And that is a great sign for me personally, that this person is invested in learning and deepening their understanding of the organization based on the way that they ask the question and the types of questions that they ask.
Do you have any question that was asked that was kind of a standout for you that maybe took you by surprise?
(27:56):
Yeah, I think part of it is one of the one of the key things of our organization, we're a social justice organization.
And so when someone is able to articulate back recognition that we're not just a health and human services nonprofit, we have this unique element of social service work that we and social justice work that we do.
And then when they're able to present a question that says and acknowledges that, that's incredibly powerful for me because it shows that they have clarity around what our mission and our values are.
(28:28):
And that that is a clear indication not only in terms of fit, but also that they're interested in deepening their knowledge around the work.
Thank you, Michael.
So last question.
Yes.
What is inspiring curiosity for you in your own life?
And this doesn't have to be about work.
Yeah, I mean, I think when you ask that question, I think about the fact that I really enjoy podcasts.
(28:53):
I have several that I follow and one of them that I enjoy a lot because it offers some incredible insight is The Hidden Brain by Shankar Vedantam.
And I love all the episodes that they presented on that podcast series.
And most recently, there was this discussion around how to navigate periods of great transitions or challenges or chaos.
(29:18):
And it gave some very tangible ways of thinking about this work.
So the work that we do as a social justice organization in this current environment.
And and one of the things that they said is that rest and the moment of taking some time
away from the movement is as important as being in deep in the movement, because what
(29:41):
happens is that you are recovering and you're needing time and space to recover and also
recognizing that while you're taking time to recover, there are others in the movement
that are moving forward on those social justice work.
So knowing that you're not alone and that you don't have to hold the forward movement alone, you can take periods of time of rest, knowing that there are others with you that are continuing to move it forward.
(30:05):
And I thought that was really powerful.
And that's something that I shared with our colleagues, because this can be incredibly emotionally taxing moment, not only in the nature of their work, but in this particular moment.
So that's been a really helpful guiding advice from the podcast.
Yeah, that's one of my favorite podcasts as well.
And I really resonate with the idea of just rest.
(30:29):
And sometimes that's where we actually find the deepest inspiration for curiosity, because we aren't just charging ahead and doing the work.
Correct.
Correct.
And I think there's also this piece around we're in a workplace environment and there's a culture around how you got to put in the umpteen hours in the office in order to have impact.
And I think we're trying to intentionally push against that, recognizing that's not necessary in order to do really, really good work.
(30:56):
And I think that's something that we continue to practice.
And it's often very difficult to do because of all the kind of societal pressures around this.
And I think but I think it's an important practice.
It made me think of there's that work, work smart, not just hard.
But there's also work with intention.
(31:16):
Yes.
Yep.
That's really what I'm getting from our conversation today.
Yeah.
Michael, how do people get in touch with you?
Yeah, we have our website, which is www.acrs.org.
And people are always welcome if they have any inquiries to reach out to me directly.
My email address is michaelb, as in boy, @ acrs.org.
(31:39):
Michael, thank you so much for sharing your insights with us at the Curiosity at Work podcast today.
We really enjoyed this conversation.
Thank you, Julie.
I had a great time.
Listeners, practice curiosity in the world.
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