October 7, 2024 • 24 mins
In this episode of Curiosity at Work, Dr. Julie Pham chats with Joe Sky-Tucker, CEO of Business Impact Northwest, to explore how curiosity shapes leadership and culture in the nonprofit world. Joe shares stories from his journey—moving from a micromanager to a leader who deeply listens to his team and finds creative ways to say "yes" whenever possible.
Joe talks about the power of promoting from within, trusting people to step into leadership roles, and why it’s important to admit when we don’t have all the answers. Julie and Joe also dive into the challenges of maintaining curiosity when everyone is swamped with deadlines and how finding time to pause and reflect can make all the difference.
If you’re interested in creating a workplace where everyone feels seen, heard, and valued, you’ll want to listen in. This conversation is full of practical advice and real talk on how to lead with empathy, especially when things get tough.
Listen to this episode and let us know in the comments: How do you keep curiosity alive in your work? Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share with anyone who could use a dose of inspiration.
🔗 Connect with Dr. Julie Pham:
- LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliepham2/
- Website:https://curiositybased.com/
- Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/juliephamphd/
Connect with Joe Sky-Tucker
https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-sky-tucker/
https://businessimpactnw.org/about-us/staff/
Produced by TitanMediaWorx.com.
#Leadership #CuriosityAtWork #NonprofitLeadership #EmpathyInLeadership #WorkplaceCulture #LearningOrganizations #Podcast #Curiosity
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is
where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hi there.
(00:27):
This is Dr. Julie Pham with the Curiosity at Work podcast, and today I'm super excited
to get to chat with Joe Skytucker, who is the CEO of Business Impact Northwest, a 20-plus
year nonprofit leader, also a trained social worker.
I know him because he was actually the professor of one of my colleagues at the School of Social
(00:49):
Work, and so lots of varied background, and we're excited to learn, Joe, how you practice
curiosity at work, especially at a nonprofit that serves entrepreneurs.
A lot of times people don't think of nonprofits as doing that.
So welcome.
Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to talk about this, and I'm super excited to have this conversation because
(01:11):
I think it's so needed.
So Joe, if you could just first tell people, what does Business Impact do?
We use the acronym BIN, right?
You could share a bit of what it does, and then also, who do you employ?
Where are they remote?
Are they in person?
What are the different functions?
How many people?
Yes.
Sure.
(01:31):
Yeah.
So at a high level, Business Impact Northwest helps small businesses across the region.
So we work in four states, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Alaska, and we have two key functions
that we do is training and technical assistance on one side and access to capital or lending
on the other side.
And so we have about 60 employees across the region.
(01:54):
And all of them, we call hybrid or remote, kind of that distinction.
We do have some offices, some small offices that people go into on occasion, but for the
most part, people are working from home and then going to other meetings in the field
as needed.
So that's kind of how we have it divided up.
(02:14):
We did a survey a few years ago as COVID was winding down, did we want to bring people
back into the office?
And we asked our staff, and it was a resounding no.
We don't want to come into the office.
And so we're like, okay, we hear you.
We won't make you come into the office.
So we have really been able to push our breadth of our services because of that, I think,
(02:35):
as well.
We do lots of stuff online, but also lowering our overhead costs has allowed us to be in
more places and have more staff out there.
So they're all full-time employees, W2 employees.
So that's been really fun.
How many people were you at two years ago?
Two years ago, I think we were around 40.
When I started in 2016, like nine years ago, we were at 15, 16 people, so really a lot
(03:04):
of growth.
I thought we were going to figure out a way to get people back into our offices and all
of that.
And we listened to our staff.
We said, what do you want to do?
How can we make this work?
And they said, we don't want to come into the office.
We want to keep it as it is.
And we're like, okay, let's figure out how to do that.
So I think that's really the foundation of our work as an organization is to create a
(03:28):
feedback loop where we're listening to our staff and being curious about what they have
to say and taking what they have to say and infusing it into our programs.
I love that, Joe, especially because you serve entrepreneurs.
In fact, Curiosity Base is one of your clients.
We've taken classes through BID.
And to be an entrepreneur, you have to have quite a bit of a yes mentality, too.
(03:49):
There has to be that inherent optimism because there is so much risk.
And so I'm just thinking about how the people who we serve can also influence the nature
of the work and feedback into how we're going to serve.
We have internal clients, our employees, and then the external clients as well, and that
you were able to actually use the savings to expand even more.
(04:16):
And did your also your customers prefer the entrepreneurs you work with also like that
hybrid or the ability to do things virtually, too?
For the most part.
And then what we end up using when people want to be in person is we have drop-in hours
where people can come sign up for and meet with a person in person.
We have some classes that are in person as well or kind of doing a hybrid of that.
(04:39):
We do some asynchronous stuff.
And then we'll even do online kind of training workshop-esque where they're kind of parsing
out the curriculum with our staff and with each other, that cohort-based model.
I think we learn more from each other than sometimes we do from the instructor if we're
in the right environment.
So we're always trying to figure out ways to be more creative.
(05:02):
We have on-demand classes.
We have, as I said, kind of those hybrid asynchronous and then in-person events.
And then we have kind of in-person or all in-person and then all virtual, really trying
to reduce as many barriers as possible and create as many modalities of connection as
possible as well.
So all of that kind of leads into that basis.
(05:23):
You use the obviously Curiosity Basis, your company, and we use you as a trainer coming
into our organization as well.
So we have a different name for it, but a very similar value around curiosity in our
workplace. And a lot of that curiosity comes from, I consider, a place of how do we say
(05:45):
yes to this? That's kind of my.
And so even within our programs, I'm always trying to think of like I'm talking to new
stakeholders, how can we make it work?
It doesn't always mean that it works, but to me, that opens up the opportunity for
something interesting to happen.
Your belief around curiosity, we call it our heard, seen, appreciated and accountable, the
(06:10):
core tenets of our management philosophy or leadership philosophy that we have.
And it really starts with listening to people, whether it's our clients or whether it's
our staff and really empowering and bringing their voice into things.
I can think of multiple examples, but I was trying to think of for this podcast to kind
(06:34):
of talk through my journey as a CEO is when I started, I had some rough notion of what I
wanted it to be and how to be a leader.
And you kind of take a lot of lessons learned from the bosses that I loved, bosses
(06:54):
that needed my own personal beliefs and kind of started putting them all together, if you
will, and trying to parse out what that what resonated with me, what worked.
And, you know, I have swung kind of the pendulum around.
You know, I think a lot of people do like to.
(07:17):
Kind of the micromanaging, if you will, hands off and like always kind of trying to navigate
that, you know, I do remember a couple of things where I first started, we had a staff
member who was trying to sort out their their department a little bit and she wanted to
(07:38):
talk with the board chair.
And and I remember, you know, it was a very clear moment of we can't this is not what
we use our board for, as you were saying, around nonprofits or, you know, if you're
not familiar with them, we have a we have a board of directors that kind of oversees
and think of it as the supervisor of the CEO, if you will, providing strategic direction,
(08:03):
fiscal oversight, that sort of thing for the organization.
So prior to this moment, I probably would have hemmed and hawed and said, maybe we can
talk about it. But I also knew that in that moment, the most the kindest thing to be was
direct and to say, don't use our board chair for that.
(08:23):
You use me and your other team members to do that.
And so that was a big learning of like, you have to be a little uncomfortable at times.
And, you know, and I and I really come around to that belief that sometimes the kindest
thing to be is direct around what the expectations are and aren't.
And then also trying to give people opportunities to kind of fill the void.
(08:48):
So we have a real ethic around promotion from within.
And so we are currently in a little bit of a transition with a couple staff members who
have left and we've figured it out.
And so we have I was going to hire another kind of executive position and I was meeting
(09:08):
with the team and I watched the team and how they were responding to the person who's
kind of in the interim role.
And they were excited, engaged and following her.
And so I made the decision there.
We don't need to go outside.
(09:31):
We have someone right here who's ready.
They need a little bit of support.
So that's where the organization comes in, where I can support them.
We're going to have some other staff members kind of support their development because
they're pretty new at this.
And there's some there's some kind of learnings that they need to have, just kind of
technical stuff.
But, you know, that that's also a thing of like most of the time people will rise to
(09:56):
the occasion. And so if we put trust in them and support them, we can we don't have to
go find the perfect person.
The perfect person could be sitting down the hall from you.
They just haven't been given the opportunity.
And so being open to that, I think as a leader and as an organization is hard, but it's
really important to be open to those moments.
(10:17):
I think. You know, like I said, I have made every mistake you can make as a boss, and
I think. We're not necessarily taught to step back, always look at ourselves, you know,
there's a class that when we talk about our businesses, you know, you work in your
business, but are you working on your business?
(10:39):
So it's like, you know, are you working on yourself as a leader?
This is my first real like my first CEO role, and I really and still struggle with
delegation properly.
I can just do it myself.
I know I'm going to do it better and faster and all of that.
And so I've struggled with delegation.
(10:59):
And he had this moment where he was talking.
He ran a big credit union before he retired and he said he was meeting with staff and
they were asking a specific question.
And he kind of felt like it was a little bit of like a gotcha question of like, well,
what about this new technology?
And he was like, I don't know.
I don't know anything about that new technology, but that's not my job.
(11:21):
It's your job because you're the one who's interacting with that technology to
understand it. It's my job to be the leader of the organization.
And this is what I do.
And to me, that was the aha moment of like, I don't have everything the organization
does. I need to be an expert of what I do.
And so it took some pressure off of needing to understand all the loan processes, all
(11:45):
of the all of what we do.
I need to know in a general level, but I'm not the one that should be giving coaching
or approving loans or underwriting loans.
I need to be the leader of the organization.
And that's a different skill set and different needs.
And so that has always stuck with me that I don't need to be and you don't need to be
(12:06):
as a leader to be do everything, be all things, all people, hire people.
And that was your board chair who gave you that advice then.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I really appreciate that, actually, in that nonprofit structure, how in a healthy
relationship, the CEO, executive director can can be in really close relationship
mentorship, really with the with the board chair.
(12:29):
I had a good board that was patient with me as well.
I think that that's the the other piece that you need to have with with growth and
with, you know, investing in people as we expect results to be perfect and immediate
and strong. And there's there's ebbs and flows and all of it.
Another lesson that I learned early on from the board chair, and I don't know if he
(12:53):
even really realized this lesson, I had come up through programs and varied
background. What you're describing about promoting from within and seeing how and
recognizing that how you're the team members were were engaging and reacting to this
team member is just, oh, well, this person just needs a little bit more training and
(13:15):
then they could actually go in to that grow into that role.
That really reflects a learning organization and investing in the people that you
already have, because actually what I've been seeing is people spend all this time
nonprofits and other organizations to spend all this time doing a big search, hiring,
(13:36):
trying to find the perfect executive.
They come in and then they stay for less than a year and then they actually just end
up hiring, promoting someone who is already there.
And I just think, wow, what if you what if they just done that from the get go?
So I really appreciate what you're saying about creating this, what I think of as a
(13:57):
learning organization where you actually promote from within and people are seeing that
and they then see that there's a pathway for them to to grow.
And and also just to recap what you were saying about that, I think it's that heard,
seen, appreciated, accounted for.
Accountable. So accountability.
Yeah. So basically forex growth since you've since you've come in, which means you've had
(14:17):
to do a lot of hiring. So my next question is around what is your when you're
interviewing for people and you said curiosity is really important.
What's a question or how do you help identify that?
I have a couple of questions I like to ask.
I'm I have a usually I have a gut feel around who's going to be a fit.
And so we're kind of looking for a type, which is we're looking for high achievers who
(14:40):
are pretty self-motivated, but also.
Understand the nonprofit work, so have a heart for the work we're doing and also aren't
going to be too aggressive on, you know, we don't want to upset the apple cart like
we can navigate creative tensions of someone that comes in is just like I'm going to get
(15:00):
me, I'm going to sell a million dollars in loans or something like that is just not
going to work. So I really like to ask a couple of questions.
One is just around how they prioritize.
So one of my favorites, like compete like the classic competing deadlines question.
To me, it's a problem solving question of what are they going to do?
(15:23):
Most everyone answers that around, you know, talking with different people.
But it's for me is I want to see their their process around how they're going to solve
this problem. And I really like to ask about where they've worked before and what was
the best fit for them, because I'm interested in understanding what they're looking for.
(15:45):
To me, that's a culture question.
What do they look for from there?
What do they want from their employer?
Because, you know, I talked briefly about our management philosophy, but the
accountability piece is a two way street that we talk about.
So you are accountable to the organization for your job to do.
But the organization is also accountable to you to provide a living wage, good benefits.
(16:09):
Hopefully a mission that's bigger than yourself that we can kind of create a legacy
around. And so that's what I'm trying to get at with those questions.
And I like to see how they kind of react in an interview setting.
We try to take as much as everyone's nervous, so try to take the nerves away and make it
(16:30):
conversational because, you know, interviews are kind of no one's really in those
positions in their day to day work.
They're working in a team.
And so teams are just kind of iterative processes that happen and you're working
together. So how can we kind of semi replicate that in an interview?
It's impossible to completely do it, but we do try to do that in a sense.
(16:53):
So but those are my questions.
Yeah, and I appreciate what you're saying about that give and take in asking the
question of the fit and how you're actually looking for them to describe that.
What did they not just expect to get from the organization, but also what were they
giving to?
Because I think with curiosity, there needs to be reciprocity.
(17:16):
We think of curiosity as a practice.
And that's second, the first element, self-awareness, second being relationship
building and reciprocity being really core to that.
So, Joe, there's times when we get to lean in and be curious and get to listen and see
people and appreciate them and and help each other stay accountable.
(17:38):
What do you what about what prevents curiosity?
Because we can't always be curious.
So what prevents curiosity in your particular workplace, in your industry?
I think it becomes sometimes a capacity issue and that fear of you're busy and you
get really, really busy and then it doesn't allow reflection points.
(18:00):
And so I think that that's really the challenge about staying curious or it's finding
the breaks in the in the work that's happening.
But when you get into just the everyone's super busy, we're all trying to do this
pressures of competing deadlines and all the stress that happens, it becomes really easy
to let go of those things that are that help you feed you and support your growth and
(18:25):
just get by. And so I think that's really the biggest challenge.
I know that for me personally, when I'm in that space of just working and I'm probably
working too many hours and I'm stressed that the work is not at the right quality, that
you can't sprint forever.
I'm a you know, and it's hard for me because, you know, I had someone ask me once, what
(18:45):
does third gear feel like?
And I was like, that feels terrible.
I always want to go as far as possible.
But I also know that we need to have breaks or we cannot kind of be rejuvenated and keep
doing this over the long term because you burn out.
I think that that's the stress and not being able to be curious really is driven by that
(19:08):
fear and by just being too busy all the time, you know.
And I think it isn't common practice either.
I think what you are doing, Julie, with your business is really unique.
And people don't practice this, they don't sit down and think about these things as often
(19:32):
as they should. And so you have these bad habits where you have learned, well, my boss,
old boss used to do it like this and this is how I'm going to do it.
And so it just kind of carries on.
But that's why it is transformational and hopefully revolutionary if people can stop
and just relax and think about these things and be intentional.
(19:54):
I think there's an intentionality around curiosity that's important.
It's not just letting it happen to you, but being an active participant in it.
I can see how that capacity issue, I see that especially with nonprofits because there's
such a desire to help.
We should help more people.
And there's sometimes even that martyr syndrome, too, just, oh, we need to give
(20:15):
ourselves because there are people, especially in social service, nonprofits.
And I know that you've spent a lot of your career before you've been in that.
And then also with what you said about curiosity being, what can you say yes to?
And then it's just, oh, we said yes to too many things.
So there can sometimes be those mixed messages, too.
(20:35):
So, Joe, here's my last question.
My last big question for you is what is a resource or source of inspiration for you in
terms of curiosity?
And this doesn't have to do with work.
It can, but it doesn't have to be.
What just personally inspires you?
They're going to be work related because I'm a, you know, unfortunately, workaholic in
(20:57):
that regard. The two resources that I really appreciate.
And one, this is kind of an old, this was made the rounds, you know, 15 years ago or so
was Jim Collins is good to great.
That like, what are you really good at?
What are you passionate about and what drives your revenue?
Those three things were front and center for me as I started a business, Impact
(21:22):
Northwest. I couldn't define them for the first few years, but we're at a point where I
can now and could have.
And so that really drove it.
And then I say Brene Brown's braving framework around trust building, which is really
important. So look up that as an acronym.
I won't go into the details on it because I'll probably butcher it.
(21:42):
But those are two really important resources.
But I think they both they kind of sit on both sides of the ledger.
There's kind of like what, you know, what's driving the work, but also how you do it.
And the importance of doing it in a way that's building trust, not just with your staff,
with your clients and with stakeholders.
That's really the key piece of this is that it's not just a one way street.
(22:07):
And so I think that that Brene Brown framework really is helpful in that.
Yeah, going back to that reciprocity, we have to have that back and forth.
Absolutely. Well, Joe, thank you so much for for sharing your wisdom and how it is in
in this nonprofit setting with our listeners.
How do people get in touch with you?
(22:28):
You can find me on LinkedIn.
You can find me at BusinessImpactNW.org.
You know, feel free to reach out.
I think my contact information is on there.
I'm also happy to share to people, reach out and talk more.
And if you want to start a small business or grow your business, come find us.
And always happy to make connections with folks.
(22:49):
So a pleasure to talk with you.
And I just have to say, I am so excited to watch your growth and and the work that you're doing as well.
I think it is so important.
And so, you know, I'm a little biased because obviously Lynn is on your team and I've known her for years.
And, you know, we use you as and then you've used our services.
(23:10):
So talk about the reciprocity piece of this is, you know, I feel invested in your success as well.
And so I think I'm just excited to watch you grow and blossom and do all the crazy things you do.
So congratulations.
Joe, thank you so much.
And we have just been big fans of Business Impact Northwest, too.
And and the support that you provide to entrepreneurs.
(23:32):
I mean, as a small business owner, there are so many resources out there.
People just don't realize that.
Yeah. So well, with that, thank you so much for sharing on Curiosity at Work podcast.
And for listeners, remember to practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that's where we spend most of our
waking hours. Absolutely.
(23:52):
Thank you, Julie. Thanks, everyone.
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) I'm Dr. Julie Pham, founder of Curiosity Based.
We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that is
where we spend most of our waking hours.
Curiosity as a practice boils down to self-awareness, relationship building, and clear communication.
So join us as we interview leaders to see how they use curiosity at work.
Hi there.
(00:27):
This is Dr. Julie Pham with the Curiosity at Work podcast, and today I'm super excited
to get to chat with Joe Skytucker, who is the CEO of Business Impact Northwest, a 20-plus
year nonprofit leader, also a trained social worker.
I know him because he was actually the professor of one of my colleagues at the School of Social
(00:49):
Work, and so lots of varied background, and we're excited to learn, Joe, how you practice
curiosity at work, especially at a nonprofit that serves entrepreneurs.
A lot of times people don't think of nonprofits as doing that.
So welcome.
Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to talk about this, and I'm super excited to have this conversation because
(01:11):
I think it's so needed.
So Joe, if you could just first tell people, what does Business Impact do?
We use the acronym BIN, right?
You could share a bit of what it does, and then also, who do you employ?
Where are they remote?
Are they in person?
What are the different functions?
How many people?
Yes.
Sure.
(01:31):
Yeah.
So at a high level, Business Impact Northwest helps small businesses across the region.
So we work in four states, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Alaska, and we have two key functions
that we do is training and technical assistance on one side and access to capital or lending
on the other side.
And so we have about 60 employees across the region.
(01:54):
And all of them, we call hybrid or remote, kind of that distinction.
We do have some offices, some small offices that people go into on occasion, but for the
most part, people are working from home and then going to other meetings in the field
as needed.
So that's kind of how we have it divided up.
(02:14):
We did a survey a few years ago as COVID was winding down, did we want to bring people
back into the office?
And we asked our staff, and it was a resounding no.
We don't want to come into the office.
And so we're like, okay, we hear you.
We won't make you come into the office.
So we have really been able to push our breadth of our services because of that, I think,
(02:35):
as well.
We do lots of stuff online, but also lowering our overhead costs has allowed us to be in
more places and have more staff out there.
So they're all full-time employees, W2 employees.
So that's been really fun.
How many people were you at two years ago?
Two years ago, I think we were around 40.
When I started in 2016, like nine years ago, we were at 15, 16 people, so really a lot
(03:04):
of growth.
I thought we were going to figure out a way to get people back into our offices and all
of that.
And we listened to our staff.
We said, what do you want to do?
How can we make this work?
And they said, we don't want to come into the office.
We want to keep it as it is.
And we're like, okay, let's figure out how to do that.
So I think that's really the foundation of our work as an organization is to create a
(03:28):
feedback loop where we're listening to our staff and being curious about what they have
to say and taking what they have to say and infusing it into our programs.
I love that, Joe, especially because you serve entrepreneurs.
In fact, Curiosity Base is one of your clients.
We've taken classes through BID.
And to be an entrepreneur, you have to have quite a bit of a yes mentality, too.
(03:49):
There has to be that inherent optimism because there is so much risk.
And so I'm just thinking about how the people who we serve can also influence the nature
of the work and feedback into how we're going to serve.
We have internal clients, our employees, and then the external clients as well, and that
you were able to actually use the savings to expand even more.
(04:16):
And did your also your customers prefer the entrepreneurs you work with also like that
hybrid or the ability to do things virtually, too?
For the most part.
And then what we end up using when people want to be in person is we have drop-in hours
where people can come sign up for and meet with a person in person.
We have some classes that are in person as well or kind of doing a hybrid of that.
(04:39):
We do some asynchronous stuff.
And then we'll even do online kind of training workshop-esque where they're kind of parsing
out the curriculum with our staff and with each other, that cohort-based model.
I think we learn more from each other than sometimes we do from the instructor if we're
in the right environment.
So we're always trying to figure out ways to be more creative.
(05:02):
We have on-demand classes.
We have, as I said, kind of those hybrid asynchronous and then in-person events.
And then we have kind of in-person or all in-person and then all virtual, really trying
to reduce as many barriers as possible and create as many modalities of connection as
possible as well.
So all of that kind of leads into that basis.
(05:23):
You use the obviously Curiosity Basis, your company, and we use you as a trainer coming
into our organization as well.
So we have a different name for it, but a very similar value around curiosity in our
workplace. And a lot of that curiosity comes from, I consider, a place of how do we say
(05:45):
yes to this? That's kind of my.
And so even within our programs, I'm always trying to think of like I'm talking to new
stakeholders, how can we make it work?
It doesn't always mean that it works, but to me, that opens up the opportunity for
something interesting to happen.
Your belief around curiosity, we call it our heard, seen, appreciated and accountable, the
(06:10):
core tenets of our management philosophy or leadership philosophy that we have.
And it really starts with listening to people, whether it's our clients or whether it's
our staff and really empowering and bringing their voice into things.
I can think of multiple examples, but I was trying to think of for this podcast to kind
(06:34):
of talk through my journey as a CEO is when I started, I had some rough notion of what I
wanted it to be and how to be a leader.
And you kind of take a lot of lessons learned from the bosses that I loved, bosses
(06:54):
that needed my own personal beliefs and kind of started putting them all together, if you
will, and trying to parse out what that what resonated with me, what worked.
And, you know, I have swung kind of the pendulum around.
You know, I think a lot of people do like to.
(07:17):
Kind of the micromanaging, if you will, hands off and like always kind of trying to navigate
that, you know, I do remember a couple of things where I first started, we had a staff
member who was trying to sort out their their department a little bit and she wanted to
(07:38):
talk with the board chair.
And and I remember, you know, it was a very clear moment of we can't this is not what
we use our board for, as you were saying, around nonprofits or, you know, if you're
not familiar with them, we have a we have a board of directors that kind of oversees
and think of it as the supervisor of the CEO, if you will, providing strategic direction,
(08:03):
fiscal oversight, that sort of thing for the organization.
So prior to this moment, I probably would have hemmed and hawed and said, maybe we can
talk about it. But I also knew that in that moment, the most the kindest thing to be was
direct and to say, don't use our board chair for that.
(08:23):
You use me and your other team members to do that.
And so that was a big learning of like, you have to be a little uncomfortable at times.
And, you know, and I and I really come around to that belief that sometimes the kindest
thing to be is direct around what the expectations are and aren't.
And then also trying to give people opportunities to kind of fill the void.
(08:48):
So we have a real ethic around promotion from within.
And so we are currently in a little bit of a transition with a couple staff members who
have left and we've figured it out.
And so we have I was going to hire another kind of executive position and I was meeting
(09:08):
with the team and I watched the team and how they were responding to the person who's
kind of in the interim role.
And they were excited, engaged and following her.
And so I made the decision there.
We don't need to go outside.
(09:31):
We have someone right here who's ready.
They need a little bit of support.
So that's where the organization comes in, where I can support them.
We're going to have some other staff members kind of support their development because
they're pretty new at this.
And there's some there's some kind of learnings that they need to have, just kind of
technical stuff.
But, you know, that that's also a thing of like most of the time people will rise to
(09:56):
the occasion. And so if we put trust in them and support them, we can we don't have to
go find the perfect person.
The perfect person could be sitting down the hall from you.
They just haven't been given the opportunity.
And so being open to that, I think as a leader and as an organization is hard, but it's
really important to be open to those moments.
(10:17):
I think. You know, like I said, I have made every mistake you can make as a boss, and
I think. We're not necessarily taught to step back, always look at ourselves, you know,
there's a class that when we talk about our businesses, you know, you work in your
business, but are you working on your business?
(10:39):
So it's like, you know, are you working on yourself as a leader?
This is my first real like my first CEO role, and I really and still struggle with
delegation properly.
I can just do it myself.
I know I'm going to do it better and faster and all of that.
And so I've struggled with delegation.
(10:59):
And he had this moment where he was talking.
He ran a big credit union before he retired and he said he was meeting with staff and
they were asking a specific question.
And he kind of felt like it was a little bit of like a gotcha question of like, well,
what about this new technology?
And he was like, I don't know.
I don't know anything about that new technology, but that's not my job.
(11:21):
It's your job because you're the one who's interacting with that technology to
understand it. It's my job to be the leader of the organization.
And this is what I do.
And to me, that was the aha moment of like, I don't have everything the organization
does. I need to be an expert of what I do.
And so it took some pressure off of needing to understand all the loan processes, all
(11:45):
of the all of what we do.
I need to know in a general level, but I'm not the one that should be giving coaching
or approving loans or underwriting loans.
I need to be the leader of the organization.
And that's a different skill set and different needs.
And so that has always stuck with me that I don't need to be and you don't need to be
(12:06):
as a leader to be do everything, be all things, all people, hire people.
And that was your board chair who gave you that advice then.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I really appreciate that, actually, in that nonprofit structure, how in a healthy
relationship, the CEO, executive director can can be in really close relationship
mentorship, really with the with the board chair.
(12:29):
I had a good board that was patient with me as well.
I think that that's the the other piece that you need to have with with growth and
with, you know, investing in people as we expect results to be perfect and immediate
and strong. And there's there's ebbs and flows and all of it.
Another lesson that I learned early on from the board chair, and I don't know if he
(12:53):
even really realized this lesson, I had come up through programs and varied
background. What you're describing about promoting from within and seeing how and
recognizing that how you're the team members were were engaging and reacting to this
team member is just, oh, well, this person just needs a little bit more training and
(13:15):
then they could actually go in to that grow into that role.
That really reflects a learning organization and investing in the people that you
already have, because actually what I've been seeing is people spend all this time
nonprofits and other organizations to spend all this time doing a big search, hiring,
(13:36):
trying to find the perfect executive.
They come in and then they stay for less than a year and then they actually just end
up hiring, promoting someone who is already there.
And I just think, wow, what if you what if they just done that from the get go?
So I really appreciate what you're saying about creating this, what I think of as a
(13:57):
learning organization where you actually promote from within and people are seeing that
and they then see that there's a pathway for them to to grow.
And and also just to recap what you were saying about that, I think it's that heard,
seen, appreciated, accounted for.
Accountable. So accountability.
Yeah. So basically forex growth since you've since you've come in, which means you've had
(14:17):
to do a lot of hiring. So my next question is around what is your when you're
interviewing for people and you said curiosity is really important.
What's a question or how do you help identify that?
I have a couple of questions I like to ask.
I'm I have a usually I have a gut feel around who's going to be a fit.
And so we're kind of looking for a type, which is we're looking for high achievers who
(14:40):
are pretty self-motivated, but also.
Understand the nonprofit work, so have a heart for the work we're doing and also aren't
going to be too aggressive on, you know, we don't want to upset the apple cart like
we can navigate creative tensions of someone that comes in is just like I'm going to get
(15:00):
me, I'm going to sell a million dollars in loans or something like that is just not
going to work. So I really like to ask a couple of questions.
One is just around how they prioritize.
So one of my favorites, like compete like the classic competing deadlines question.
To me, it's a problem solving question of what are they going to do?
(15:23):
Most everyone answers that around, you know, talking with different people.
But it's for me is I want to see their their process around how they're going to solve
this problem. And I really like to ask about where they've worked before and what was
the best fit for them, because I'm interested in understanding what they're looking for.
(15:45):
To me, that's a culture question.
What do they look for from there?
What do they want from their employer?
Because, you know, I talked briefly about our management philosophy, but the
accountability piece is a two way street that we talk about.
So you are accountable to the organization for your job to do.
But the organization is also accountable to you to provide a living wage, good benefits.
(16:09):
Hopefully a mission that's bigger than yourself that we can kind of create a legacy
around. And so that's what I'm trying to get at with those questions.
And I like to see how they kind of react in an interview setting.
We try to take as much as everyone's nervous, so try to take the nerves away and make it
(16:30):
conversational because, you know, interviews are kind of no one's really in those
positions in their day to day work.
They're working in a team.
And so teams are just kind of iterative processes that happen and you're working
together. So how can we kind of semi replicate that in an interview?
It's impossible to completely do it, but we do try to do that in a sense.
(16:53):
So but those are my questions.
Yeah, and I appreciate what you're saying about that give and take in asking the
question of the fit and how you're actually looking for them to describe that.
What did they not just expect to get from the organization, but also what were they
giving to?
Because I think with curiosity, there needs to be reciprocity.
(17:16):
We think of curiosity as a practice.
And that's second, the first element, self-awareness, second being relationship
building and reciprocity being really core to that.
So, Joe, there's times when we get to lean in and be curious and get to listen and see
people and appreciate them and and help each other stay accountable.
(17:38):
What do you what about what prevents curiosity?
Because we can't always be curious.
So what prevents curiosity in your particular workplace, in your industry?
I think it becomes sometimes a capacity issue and that fear of you're busy and you
get really, really busy and then it doesn't allow reflection points.
(18:00):
And so I think that that's really the challenge about staying curious or it's finding
the breaks in the in the work that's happening.
But when you get into just the everyone's super busy, we're all trying to do this
pressures of competing deadlines and all the stress that happens, it becomes really easy
to let go of those things that are that help you feed you and support your growth and
(18:25):
just get by. And so I think that's really the biggest challenge.
I know that for me personally, when I'm in that space of just working and I'm probably
working too many hours and I'm stressed that the work is not at the right quality, that
you can't sprint forever.
I'm a you know, and it's hard for me because, you know, I had someone ask me once, what
(18:45):
does third gear feel like?
And I was like, that feels terrible.
I always want to go as far as possible.
But I also know that we need to have breaks or we cannot kind of be rejuvenated and keep
doing this over the long term because you burn out.
I think that that's the stress and not being able to be curious really is driven by that
(19:08):
fear and by just being too busy all the time, you know.
And I think it isn't common practice either.
I think what you are doing, Julie, with your business is really unique.
And people don't practice this, they don't sit down and think about these things as often
(19:32):
as they should. And so you have these bad habits where you have learned, well, my boss,
old boss used to do it like this and this is how I'm going to do it.
And so it just kind of carries on.
But that's why it is transformational and hopefully revolutionary if people can stop
and just relax and think about these things and be intentional.
(19:54):
I think there's an intentionality around curiosity that's important.
It's not just letting it happen to you, but being an active participant in it.
I can see how that capacity issue, I see that especially with nonprofits because there's
such a desire to help.
We should help more people.
And there's sometimes even that martyr syndrome, too, just, oh, we need to give
(20:15):
ourselves because there are people, especially in social service, nonprofits.
And I know that you've spent a lot of your career before you've been in that.
And then also with what you said about curiosity being, what can you say yes to?
And then it's just, oh, we said yes to too many things.
So there can sometimes be those mixed messages, too.
(20:35):
So, Joe, here's my last question.
My last big question for you is what is a resource or source of inspiration for you in
terms of curiosity?
And this doesn't have to do with work.
It can, but it doesn't have to be.
What just personally inspires you?
They're going to be work related because I'm a, you know, unfortunately, workaholic in
(20:57):
that regard. The two resources that I really appreciate.
And one, this is kind of an old, this was made the rounds, you know, 15 years ago or so
was Jim Collins is good to great.
That like, what are you really good at?
What are you passionate about and what drives your revenue?
Those three things were front and center for me as I started a business, Impact
(21:22):
Northwest. I couldn't define them for the first few years, but we're at a point where I
can now and could have.
And so that really drove it.
And then I say Brene Brown's braving framework around trust building, which is really
important. So look up that as an acronym.
I won't go into the details on it because I'll probably butcher it.
(21:42):
But those are two really important resources.
But I think they both they kind of sit on both sides of the ledger.
There's kind of like what, you know, what's driving the work, but also how you do it.
And the importance of doing it in a way that's building trust, not just with your staff,
with your clients and with stakeholders.
That's really the key piece of this is that it's not just a one way street.
(22:07):
And so I think that that Brene Brown framework really is helpful in that.
Yeah, going back to that reciprocity, we have to have that back and forth.
Absolutely. Well, Joe, thank you so much for for sharing your wisdom and how it is in
in this nonprofit setting with our listeners.
How do people get in touch with you?
(22:28):
You can find me on LinkedIn.
You can find me at BusinessImpactNW.org.
You know, feel free to reach out.
I think my contact information is on there.
I'm also happy to share to people, reach out and talk more.
And if you want to start a small business or grow your business, come find us.
And always happy to make connections with folks.
(22:49):
So a pleasure to talk with you.
And I just have to say, I am so excited to watch your growth and and the work that you're doing as well.
I think it is so important.
And so, you know, I'm a little biased because obviously Lynn is on your team and I've known her for years.
And, you know, we use you as and then you've used our services.
(23:10):
So talk about the reciprocity piece of this is, you know, I feel invested in your success as well.
And so I think I'm just excited to watch you grow and blossom and do all the crazy things you do.
So congratulations.
Joe, thank you so much.
And we have just been big fans of Business Impact Northwest, too.
And and the support that you provide to entrepreneurs.
(23:32):
I mean, as a small business owner, there are so many resources out there.
People just don't realize that.
Yeah. So well, with that, thank you so much for sharing on Curiosity at Work podcast.
And for listeners, remember to practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that's where we spend most of our
waking hours. Absolutely.
(23:52):
Thank you, Julie. Thanks, everyone.
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