Heather Dawn Church Part 1: The Girl Who Vanished from Her Own Home

Thirteen-year-old Heather Dawn Church was supposed to be safe. She was home alone doing her homework in the quiet, wooded Black Forest of Colorado when she vanished without a trace. Her schoolbooks were still open. The lights were on. And her little brother was fast asleep. But Heather was gone—and no one heard a thing.

In this gripping first installment of our Heather Church series, John and Angela take you deep into the night of September 17, 1991, and into the heart of a case that was mishandled from the start. We explore the failings of the El Paso County Sheriff's Office, the assumptions that led investigators astray, and the evidence that was overlooked.

But this isn't just a story about a botched investigation. It's about the people who refused to let Heather’s name fade into cold case files. One man in particular—John Anderson—was so haunted by this case that he came out of retirement and ran for sheriff just to fix what others had broken. And he didn’t do it alone. Legendary detective Lou Smit, known for his later work on the JonBenét Ramsey case, would join the fight for justice.

We also shine a light on the haunting atmosphere of Black Forest itself—where ghost stories and real-life tragedy coexist.

This is not just the story of a crime. It’s the story of what happens when someone decides failure isn’t an option. This is Dark Dialogue. And this is The Girl Who Vanished from Her Own Home.

🎧 Like what you heard? Don’t forget to like, follow, rate, and share. 🕯️ Join the Adopt-a-Victim program, support us on Patreon or Ko-fi, and become part of the Dark Dialogue Collective at darkdialogue.com. 📬 Got tips, case suggestions, or feedback? Email us at [e-mail]. 👣 Keep following the trail—and keep the dialogue alive.

Episode Transcript

John (00:02):
It was a Thursday night in September of 1991.
Cool, calm and ordinary in theforested hills just north of Colorado
Springs in the church's family,split level home nestled among
the tall pines of Black Forest.
13-year-old Heather Don Churchwas home alone finishing her
homework at the dining room table.

(00:23):
Her two younger brothers wereoff at a Cub Scout meeting.
Her mother had dropped them off andwas attending a woman's homemaking
class at their local church.
Her father recently separated from thefamily, had moved out just weeks earlier
when her mother returned that evening.
The boys in tow, something felt wrong.

(00:45):
The lights were still on.
Heather's school books layopen, but Heather was gone.
There were no signs of forcedentry, no screams, no witnesses.
Just a missing girl and an open.
That is not true,
just a missing girl andan open bedroom window.

(01:07):
The investigation that followed wouldbe marred by tunnel vision, forensic
mishandling, and missed opportunities.
For years, Heather's disappearancebecame yet another, an yet another
cold case gathering dust on a shelf.
But this story isn't just about tragedy.
It's about what happens when acase gets under someone's skin and

(01:30):
stays there when one person decidesthat failure is not an option.
One of those people was John Anderson.
He wasn't sheriff when Heather vanished.
In fact, he was watching fromthe sidelines frustrated with how
badly the case had been botched.
So he made a bold decision.

(01:50):
He ran for Sheriff on a platform centeredaround justice and accountability.
And he won.
And once in office, he vowed to makesolving Heather's case a priority.
To do that, Anderson brought inone of the most respected homicide
detectives in Colorado history.
Lou Smit, quiet,methodical, and relentless.

(02:14):
Smit was known for cracking thecases that no one else could.
His involvement would breathenew life into an investigation
that many had written off.
And though he's more famously associatedwith the JonBenet Ramsey case, in
the story of Heather Church, Lou Smithelped make the impossible possible.
And while he didn't, and while hedidn't work directly on the case,

(02:38):
another name worth mentioningwas working in the same circle.
And that was Joe Kenda, thelegendary Colorado Springs detective
would go on to become a householdname through Homicide Hunter.
But back then.
He was just part of a teamof professionals pushing
for a higher standard ofinvestigative work in Colorado.

(02:58):
Together they helped shape the futureof law enforcement in the state.
Over the course of this series, we'llre we'll over the course of this series,
we'll revisit the night that Heathervanished, the flawed investigation that
followed the political shakeup that putAnderson in charge and the slow methodical

(03:20):
unraveling of a killer's secret.
This isn't just a story of a crime, it'sthe story of people who refuse to give up.
It's about justice.
Delayed, but not denied.
This is dark dialogue, and this isthe story of Heather Don Church.

(03:40):
So Angela, how's it going tonight?

Angela (03:42):
Just waiting for the wait that you say that it's good.
How are you?

John (03:47):
I'm good.
I'm good.
It's been busy.
I've been writing like crazy andinvestigating like crazy and yeah.
Just maybe I'm just crazy.

Angela (03:55):
Maybe need to take a breath.

John (03:56):
Just Okay.
That's good enough.

Angela (04:00):
All right.
That's it.
That's all you get.

John (04:01):
That's it.
That's all you get?
Yeah.
Fine.
So are you familiar at all with this case?

Angela (04:06):
No,

John (04:06):
not at all.
And

Angela (04:07):
when you warned me that it would not be incredible, I didn't look it up.

John (04:12):
Yeah.
It's not an easy one.
I

Angela (04:13):
figured you wanted an organic response.
So yeah.

John (04:16):
This case sucks.
This is one of those thatit's hard to research.
It's hard to write,it's hard to talk about.
It just sucks.

Angela (04:27):
I only played with location information on this one.
Very good.
I decided to keep myself unknown.

John (04:35):
Perfect.
Well, this is a case that isgoing to stay with people.
A young teenage girl gone without a trace.
No real forced entry, no signs of astruggle, and no real suspects for years.
It's one of those cases where thesilence is louder than the evidence,

Angela (04:54):
right?
I don't like it already.
Can we just not,

John (04:57):
sorry.
Damn, we have to.
So listeners, welcome back to DarkDialogue, the podcast where we unravel
the shadows of the human mind and divedeep into the mysteries that haunt
small towns and big cities alike.
I'm your host John.

Angela (05:12):
And I'm Angela.
And together we shine a light on thestories that keep us up at night, unsolved
disappearances live stolen too soon, andthe questions that refuse to be buried.

John (05:23):
In this series, we're turning our focus to 13-year-old Heather Don Church.
She was home alone on one evening inSeptember of 1991, doing her homework,
babysitting her little brother whileher other two brothers were a, were at
the Cub Scouts and her mom was attendinga. Homemaker's event at the church.

(05:44):
So by the time her family returned,Heather was gone, just gone.
No sign of a break in, no note, nosound, just an open window and a
pile of school books left behind.

Angela (05:58):
The kind of disappearance that doesn't make any sense, the
kind that haunts the entire town.

John (06:04):
And it haunted more than just that.
It haunted one man in particular, JohnAnderson, a former commander with the
Colorado Springs Police Department.
He wasn't sure if when Heatherdisappeared, but the mishandling of
her case bothered him so deeply thathe ran for sheriff in El Paso County
and he won just to try to solve it.

(06:26):
He wasn't a politician, he was afather, a cop, and he wasn't going to
let this one slip through the cracks.

Angela (06:34):
And he didn't do it alone.
Enter Lou Smit, one of the most respected,cold case investigators in the country.
His name might ring a bell forpeople who followed the JonBenet
Ramsey case, but before that, hewas quietly solving the unsolvable
and Heather's case was one of them.

John (06:52):
Lou Smith brought a different kind of energy to the investigation.
He was quiet, relentless patient.
He looked where no oneelse bothered to look.
And thanks to his work and Anderson'sand their whole team and their refusal
to give up justice finally caught upwith a douche bag ass hat who thought

(07:13):
that he'd gotten away with murder.

Angela (07:15):
And while he didn't work this case directly, it's worth
noting that Joe Kenda, who I willtalk about a little bit later.

Both (07:22):
Perfect.

Angela (07:22):
Another legendary Colorado Springs detective was active during this time.
These weren't just cops, theywere cold case architects.
And the impact theyhad still echoes today.

John (07:35):
So in this first episode, we'll walk through the night that Heather
vanished, what the early investigationgot wrong and how silence and
assumptions nearly buried the truth.
But this is also the beginningof something bigger, of what
happens when the right people takethe reins and refuse to let go,

Angela (07:55):
because sometimes justice isn't swift, but it can still be relentless.

John (08:00):
This is dark dialogue and this is the force kept her silence.
Angela, you finally gotta digup some location information.
I feel bad because we've been doingthese cases and I just, I don't know,
I can't seem to help but do likemultiple episode cases because there's

(08:21):
just so much to tell and I just feellike I'm selling the story short.
If I don't tell at all.
Right.
So we end up doing these and you dolike one location information and then
we do like six or seven episodes on it.
So

Angela (08:34):
have I complained?

John (08:35):
No, but it doesn't mean I don't feel bad.

Angela (08:38):
It's all right.
I get some census in today.

John (08:41):
Yes.
You actually gotta do someon the locations today, so
I'm gonna hand it off to you.

Angela (08:47):
Well, here we go.
Settle in 'cause you'regonna hear me for a minute.

John (08:51):
Perfect.

Angela (08:52):
Colorado Springs is the home rule city.
That is the country's the country,the county seat, and the most populous
city of El Paso County, Colorado.
For those wondering, 'causeI was I looked it up.
A home rule city is quote, a municipalitythat has the power to govern itself
through a locally abducted charter ratherthan being solely governed by state law.

(09:19):
This means they have more autonomyto make decisions on local matters
like zoning, public safety, and localtaxation without needing explicit
permission from the state legislature.
End quote.
In 1871, civil War veteran and railroadmagnate, general Palmer founded Colorado
Springs as a resort destination.

(09:40):
The city was incorporated in 1872.
Early institutions included ColoradoCollege, which was founded in 1874,
and a vibrant art vibrant art scenebolstered by affluent residence
envisioning a cultured temperate city.
He laid out wide streets and bannedalcohol sales in early deeds.

(10:05):
Did I read that right?
I wrote that.
Did I read that right?

Both (10:09):
You sure.
Success

Angela (10:11):
Palmer's Denver and Rio Grande Railroad connected
the city springing growth.
Marketed as Little London for itsappeal to wealthy English tourists.
The city attracted visitors forits mild climate, the scenic beauty
near Pikes Peak and the Gardenof the Gods and Mineral Springs.
It became a haven for tuberculosispatients seeking the dry air, earning

(10:35):
the nickname City of Sunshine nearby.
Manitou Springs developed a magnet too.
Nevermind you justpotato patato over there.
This springs that John knowsdeveloped as a spa town.
Where would we be if we weren't laughing?

John (10:56):
A hundred percent

Angela (10:56):
ca, at least in the beginning.
'cause we won't be laughing later.

John (10:59):
No, we won't.

Angela (11:01):
Capitalizing on its mineral springs by 1876.
Both towns were key tourist destinations.
By 1880, the population wasreported to be 4,226 residents.
Did you miss that?

John (11:14):
I did.
So much

Angela (11:16):
growing.
Just slightly.
Yeah, just slightly to 281,184 residents.
In 1990, which is just a year prior tothis case, by 2024, it was estimated to
have grown even further to 493,554 people.

(11:37):
I'll keep my 10,000.
Thank you.
Now, as John has mentioned in past, pastepisodes, Nicola Test Testa, really?
How about we try that again?
Nicola Tesla was a notable figurehere, having built a lab and conducted
experiments in the city in 1899,contributing to its scientific legacy.

(12:00):
Since then, we've seen JoeKenda, former Colorado Springs
Police Department detective.
Featured on the Investigation DiscoveryShow, homicide Hunter, as well as
Dwayne Chapman, better known as Dog.
The Bounty Hunter rise to famefrom this neck of the country.
Switching gears a bit, as of 2021,there are nearly 45,000 active duty

(12:22):
troops in the Colorado Springs area.
Yep.
There are more than a hundred thousandveterans and thousands of reservists.
The military and defense contractorssupply more than 40% of the
Pike's Peak Region's economy.
I said that right.
I don't know why I repeated it.
Colorado Springs is also home tothe Peterson Space Force Space.

(12:45):
Say that five times fast.
I did.

John (12:46):
I know.
It's a fun one, isn't it?

Angela (12:47):
Yeah.
Shriver Space Force Space, CheyenneMountain Space Force Station, US Space
Command and Space Operations Command.
The largest contingent of SpaceService military installations.
They're responsible forintelligence gathering, space
operations, and cyber missions.

(13:09):
And I knew it was coming outtaColorado, but I didn't know how big

John (13:12):
it was coming.
Oh, huge.
Plus the Air Force Academies inColorado Springs and Fort Carson
is just south of Colorado Springs.
Yeah, it's

Angela (13:19):
just insane.
It is

John (13:20):
military.
Military.
And have you seen, you'veseen term all the terminators,

Angela (13:27):
just the second one.
Just the most.
Oh, I'll be back one.
Yeah.
Well,

John (13:30):
Terminator three, they actually go to Cheyenne Mountain's where like
the whole underground facility'sat where if everything goes bad
and it's like the apocalypse,

Both (13:40):
oh,

John (13:41):
that's the facility where the government can continue operations.
It's this huge underground facilitythat's all set up to basically run
the world after it's destroyed, whichdunno how much point there is to that.
But that is Cheyenne Mountains.

Angela (13:55):
You never know,

John (13:56):
Tons of military down there.

Angela (13:59):
So now I will take us just a little ways to Black Forest
Colorado, which is named for adense stand of Ponderosa Pines.
Black Forest is an unincorporatedcommunity at and a census designated
place located in El Paso County, Colorado.
Well, technically just a fewmiles outside of Colorado Springs.

(14:20):
This community feels like worlds away.
Here you can take in sprawling viewsof Pike's Peak while enjoying being
immersed in a tight-knit rural community.
Why did I leave that word in there?

Both (14:32):
I hate you hate

Angela (14:33):
that word.
I hate that word.
American pioneers began settling theregion in the late 1850s drawn by the
black forest abundant timber, whichwas scarce in the surrounding plains.
The area became a key lumber hub with thefirst of dozens of sawmills built in 1860.
By the late 19th century BlackForest produced over 1 billion

(14:54):
board feet of lumber for railroadslike the Kansas Pacific, Denver and
Rio Grande and New Orleans lines.
In 1870, general William JacksonPalmer established the Colorado Piney
Trust, which I didn't know was a thing.
Oh

John (15:12):
really?

Angela (15:12):
I had no idea.
He purchased 43,000 acres makinghim the first major landowner.
Lumber was critical for buildingColorado Springs and Denver with mining
props also supplied to regional mines.
The name Black Forest emergedaround the turn of the 20th century,
likely inspired by an early settler.

(15:35):
Really?
Did I say settler?
Apparently I'm struggling today already.
We just started.
Who compared the dark?
Ponderosa Pine stands toGermany's Black Forest.
The name became more official withthe opening of the Black Forest School
now, Edith Walford Elementary in1923, the Black Forest Community Club

(15:58):
Chartered, yeah, chartered in 1929.
Fostered social ties and itshistoric log built community center.
Over 80 years old remains the hub forevents like the Black Forest Festival.
Sorry, almost happening here.

(16:20):
I do not want to add a comment.
Thank you.
This might be the first timeI didn't find census records
from the time of incorporation.
However, in 1980, there were3,373 people reported in the area.
And as I've said before,census records are really only
updated at the 10 year mark.
And this story takes place in 1991.

(16:42):
So around 1990, they reported 8,143residents with a growth to 15,097
people reported in the 2020 census.
Now, John's about to be utterlyshocked at my favorite tidbit
of learning about this location.

John (17:00):
I can't wait to hear that.

Angela (17:01):
The paranormal legacy.
Oh, yeah, I'm shocked.
Yes he's almost falling out of his chair.
People damn near Black Foresthas gained notoriety as one of
Colorado's most haunted places.
I'm so going someday.
Really, particularly due to a 1991 caseinvolving Steven Beth Lee's log Home.
I go to all haunted places.

John (17:22):
I'm just surprised that it's one of the most haunted.
I did not know that about it.

Angela (17:28):
Well, let me tell you about it.
The family reported paranormal activity.
Including noises, orbs,odors, and apparitions.
Leading to investigations by the TVshow sightings, psychics identified
multiple spirits, including one namedHoward linked to a friend's deceased son.
The Holmes master bedroom closet wasdescribed as a portal and the area was

(17:52):
called a rainbow vortex by a Hopi shaman.
Drawing paranormal enthusiastsbeyond the specific haunting.
Local legend legends include tales ofa headless horseman, a forest king, and
other spectral figures adding to the areasspooky atmosphere, and I can't wait to go.

John (18:12):
Wow, that's super interesting.
I never would've guessed.
I've been through there abunch of them a bunch of times.
I've worked in the area a lot.
There's a lot of like reallynice houses out there now.
It's all

Angela (18:24):
haunted.

John (18:25):
I didn't know anything about the haunting part.

Angela (18:27):
They're in a vortex.

John (18:28):
I knew that the Stanley Hotel was considered like one of Colorado's
most haunted places, but that'squite a drive for here and I wanna

Angela (18:36):
go there so bad too.

John (18:37):
It's pretty freaking cool.
Even if it's not haunted.
It's just a cool freakingplace to, to see it's,

Angela (18:43):
I have friends that go and take pictures and send them to me with like
little haha faces and I just send themback the little flip and the bird emoji.

John (18:53):
Estes Park is a freaking cool place.

Angela (18:55):
Yeah.

John (18:55):
Anyway but thank you for that.
You are welcome.
I learned all kinds of stuff.
I spent a lot of time in this area.
I've spent a lot of time in

Angela (19:04):
this area.
Yeah.
I kind of was like, amI telling John anything?
He doesn't know

John (19:08):
the hiring part for sure.
I didn't know That's
'Angela: cause you're not into creep factor like I am.
No, not even close to as much as you are, but

Angela (19:16):
so we'll change that.

John (19:18):
Now we gotta dive into this damn story.
And you know, I mean is as youcan probably tell just from
my voice, it's a heavy one.
It's not one I'm lookingforward to at all.

Both (19:29):
Okay.
But not that any of 'em are

John (19:30):
good, but I don't know, these ones just suck more than the rest to me.

Both (19:36):
Okay,

John (19:36):
so we're gonna be talking about a young lady by the
name of Heather Dawn Church.
And so Heather was born on July 7thin 1978 in the El Paso County area.
She was the oldest child who was bornshortly after her parents got married.
And the church family was a Mormon family.

(19:57):
Her dad, Michael, was a meteorologistand not a meteorologist.
A met a meteorologist.
And Diane was from Ashland, Kentucky.
And.
Michael and Diane met at BrighamYoung University, and they
were married for 13 years.

(20:17):
And then right before this storytakes place, they'd actually
separated and filed for divorce.
And the divorce was just withina, like a couple months of being
final when all of this happened.

Angela (20:30):
So not that it matters to the story, but are you just
gonna leave me hanging or gonnatell me what a meteorologist is?

John (20:37):
I didn't look it up.
Damn you.
That's your job over there on yourlittle machine about to do it.
I meant to look it up andthen I forgot to look it up.
So I think it's something to do withlike hydrology in oil exploration
or something like that, but youmight tell me that I'm wrong.
But like I said the churcheswere going through a divorce.

(20:57):
They were separated and Michael hadmoved out of the family home and
moved into an apartment in town.
So the family home was, it was gonnabe listed for sale as is usually
the case in a divorce, and it set on5.8 acres in the Black Forest area.
And I don't know exactlywhere out there the home was.

(21:21):
And so some of the black forestarea is exactly like it sounds.
It's forested great big pine trees.
And it's a unique area for surefor like these western states
because it's relatively flat.
It's not like in the mountains.

Both (21:38):
Oh, it's

John (21:39):
relatively flat out there.
And there's these hugeestablished ponderosa pines.
And so it's not something that you'reused to seeing in the western states.
You know, typically we havesagebrush plains, grass plains, and
then as you get to the mountainswe get the forested areas.
Right.
So black forest is unique forthis area for sure, because.

(22:03):
Although nothing down there in the frontrange is very far from the mountains.
This definitely does set down in theflat kind of grass plains and it's
just this big stand of ponderosa pines.
So it's pretty unique.
So did you figure outwhat a meteorologist is?

Angela (22:20):
I did, and as I thought, it has absolutely nothing to do
with the story, but a meteorologistis a professional specializing
in the science of measurement.
They ensure the accu accuracy andreliability of measurements across various
industries, development, developingand implementing measurement systems,
procedures, and quality control processes

John (22:44):
so much smarter than me.
That's all you had to say.

Angela (22:47):
He, me too.
He studies the science of measurements.
I did not know such a thing existed.

John (22:53):
I didn't either.
But there's a science that studiesabsolutely everything, oh yeah.
It doesn't surprise me.
So pretty sharp cat apparently should

Angela (23:01):
be a science that studies me.

John (23:03):
Yeah, they'd have to close the university if they
started trying to figure me out.
So anyways, so the family homes, likeI said, it sit on 5.8 acres out there.
And what I was gonna say is thearea has the forest, just like
we described and everything, butthen it also has grass plains.
And I kind of got theidea from the research.

(23:24):
I couldn't find the addressof their house, which is fine.
I don't need to know it.
But I couldn't find it and sotherefore I couldn't locate whether
it was in the forested part or not.
But all the research and everythingled me to believe that it was not
actually in the trees, it was kindof more in the rolling grass hills
area of that black forest area.

(23:46):
So it's really neitherhere nor there, but.
They're not setting back up in the forest.
I'm pretty sure.
Okay.
They're setting more kindof out in the grass plains.
And they lived in a smallsingle family house.
It was a four bedroom, they had a den,they had peach stucco walls, blue trimmed
windows, and a half finished patio.

(24:08):
And you know, it was a nice place,it was a nice place out of town
on a pretty good chunk of land.
Almost six acres out there.
Yes.
And so Heather had three younger brothers.
Like I said, she was theoldest in the family.
And then after her wasChristophe, who was 10 in 1991.
And he was, I think bothof 'em were Cub scouts.

(24:32):
I'm not completely up onthe Boy Scout whole, how the
whole Boy Scout thing works.
I never was a Boy Scout, but.
I'm pretty sure that they wereboth still Cub Scouts, not to the
Boy Scout level yet, but maybe a10-year-old can be a Boy Scout.
I'm not sure.
It really doesn't matter.
But he was in the scouts and thenhis younger brother, gunner, who is

(24:54):
seven in 91, was also in the Scouts.
And then the youngest was a littleboy named Sage, and he was five in 91.

Angela (25:03):
I love that name.

John (25:04):
That's It's a cool name.
It's a cool name.
And it, it was kind of, I thinkreally both Gunner and Sage.
Yeah.
Were pretty unique for 91.
I like

Angela (25:14):
that.
Yeah.
We were

John (25:14):
still more in the more traditional names during that period of time.
So the churches were kind of trendsetterswhen it came to naming those boys anyway.
And Heather, her aim that.
She had completed like a churchquestionnaire and she had said that her
goal was to be nicer to her brothers.

Angela (25:35):
And

John (25:35):
It was an, they were an active family.
I take it back,

Angela (25:37):
we were gonna laugh a little bit again.

John (25:38):
Oh yeah.
She seems like just a super sweet,just a great little girl and would

Angela (25:44):
be nicer to my brothers

John (25:46):
Uhhuh.
Yep.
That is sweet.
And so all the kids were raisedin that Black Forest area and
so they were out of the city.
And I'm sure that the family felt thatthey were much safer out there than they
would be in downtown Colorado Springs.

Both (26:00):
Probably

John (26:01):
if you've watched Homicide Hunter, which takes place almost
exclusively the original homicide hunter.
I know he has a couplespinoff shows that Yeah.
Cover all over.
But the original homicide Hunter.
Is in Colorado Springs.
It all takes place in Colorado Springs.
Yeah.
You know, there was a lot of stuffgoing on in Colorado Springs.

Angela (26:21):
Yeah.
How sad that a show ran that longjust from Colorado Springs incidents.

John (26:27):
Well, you think about it, I think Joe Kenda according to Homicide Hunter,
I think he solved over 300 homicides.

Both (26:34):
Yeah.

John (26:34):
Lou Smit had over 200 homicides and they were just two of many detectives.
So we're talking a shit ton of homicides.

Both (26:45):
Yeah.

John (26:45):
In Colorado Springs.
And there's multiple serialkillers that operated in Colorado
Springs throughout the years.
And

Angela (26:52):
I usually look up the crime statistics and I forgot
this time I'm a little rusty.

John (26:57):
Yeah.
It's my fault having kept youbusy doing your location stuff.
But we have several.
Well, yeah, this is gonna be afour episode series, so you can
definitely look up crime statisticsto throw in for another episode.
Okay.
Because we will be in ColoradoSprings for the next couple episodes.

(27:17):
But I'm sure that the family felt likethey were safer getting out of the
city and out there in the country,you know, and the Black Forest area.
And as you move up north outtaColorado Springs, there's the Black
Forest, and then there's the nextfreaking one, which is Monument.

(27:38):
So there's like, it

Angela (27:39):
looks at me like I've been there and I know

John (27:41):
Colorado Springs.
And then you have Monumentafter Colorado Springs.
Then you go a little bit fartherup and you have Elizabeth,
which is where the freaking.
Most awesome RenaissanceFestival, I think anywhere in the
country is held is in Elizabeth.

Angela (27:55):
And Dark Dialogues going to that as a team building experience, correct?
Yeah, straight.

John (28:00):
We are.
Okay, because it's freaking awesome.
It's like permanentlybuilt back up in the hills.

Angela (28:05):
Permanent.
Yeah, it's permanent.

John (28:07):
So you go to go in and it's like a whole castle and they stand up on the
wall and like holler down at you and tauntyou and all that kinda stuff as you're
waiting to get your tickets and go in.
And then you go in and all the boothsare like permanently built structures.
And they have the arena where theyhave all the jousting and stuff.
I mean they have elephants,they have, it's unreal.

(28:30):
And it goes.
All summer long, like every weekend,all summer long or something like that.
So Nice.
A lot of Renaissance festivals,they come in and they're there
for a week and then they move on.
They usually set up at afairgrounds or something.
That one's unique because it'spermanent there, so it's freaking cool.
And then from,

Angela (28:48):
well, I'm gonna pick a fight with you.
So we have to build the teambuilding back up and that's
where we have to go to do it.

John (28:54):
Perfect.
Okay.
Okay.
And then not that it's reallythat important, but then from
Monument, you go up to Castle Rock.
From Castle Rock, then yougo up in and into Denver.
So that's kind of the flow

Both (29:06):
from Okay.

John (29:07):
Colorado Springs North up to Denver.
So Colorado Springs sits quite a bitnorth or quite a bit south from Denver?

Angela (29:13):
No, now that I think of it, I think I have family in Colorado Springs.

John (29:16):
Oh really?

Angela (29:17):
Yeah.

John (29:17):
Yeah.
It's a pretty freaking cool place.
I

Angela (29:19):
think I do.

John (29:20):
It's a pretty cool place.

Angela (29:22):
How sad is it to have a family so big that you're like,
I think I have family there.

John (29:25):
Oh, shit, I do.
I don't know.
I have no clue.
Where I have family, I,they're all over the place.

Angela (29:31):
Throw a dart.
They're probably related.

John (29:34):
So Heather was an earnest little girl.
She was in individualistic compassionate.
Her favorite scripturewas love one another.
Her short term goals were to get straightA's to be kinder to her brothers.
And she was, you know, shewas just at that age where

(29:54):
she's a teenager officially.
But barely.
Yeah.
You know, she's just entering thatwhole teenage realm at 13 and she had
gaudy plastic earrings in her ears.
And you know, this is the.
Early nineties.
And so the big round glassesthat were so popular back in

(30:17):
the, in that time period, I hated

Angela (30:19):
them and

John (30:21):
I did too.
But at the time, they were thething, they were the thing.
And she was a little bitty thing,five foot tall, 78 pounds, had a
sharp over oval face, oversized teeth.
And those glasses were those thick brownerkinda reddish framed glasses, you know,
that just magnified her hazel eyes.

(30:41):
And then she had shoulderlength light brown hair.
And she is a super cute littlekid, you know, and she was a good
student at Falcon Middle School.
So she was As and Bs.
And she tested for theeighth grade gifted program.
Oh sweet.
So she was interested in animals,dollhouses, swimming, biking tag.

(31:03):
She played violin and studiedearnestly, but avoided performing
in like talent contests and stuff.
And instead decided to hand out caramels.
And she said, I don't dance, I don'tsing, I don't play a musical instrument.
I don't do cartwheels,but I sure do love candy.

(31:25):
And so the family was involved in,like I said, they were involved in
the Mormon Church Sunday school andher, she wanted to go on her mission
to Australia and then attend BrighamYoung University and wanted one daughter
who she wanted to name per seny.

(31:47):
And so she was.
She was the kinda kid that wasjust anxious to please her mother,
especially after the divorce.
You know that as being theoldest kid, I think that she
kinda took the responsibilityof helping mom out and stuff.
And I don't wanna give the impressionthat dad was out of the picture.
He was still very much engaged and he hadthe kids on a reg, on regular intervals,

(32:12):
so they would go spend time with dad,come out and spend time with mom.
So a very typicalco-parenting relationship.
And it did seem like bothparents, they got along, they just
couldn't be married to each other.
They couldn't live together,but it wasn't like a really
contentious, nasty divorce at all.

Both (32:32):
Okay.
You know, they

John (32:32):
still worked together.
They were doing their verybest to co-parent the best
that they possibly could.
And so Heather would oftenvolunteer to babysit.
She's at that age where.
And I imagine it's still this way, butin 91, a girl that was 13 was like at
that age where now they could start.

(32:54):
Making a little extramoney by babysitting.
And so many kids, especially little girls,

Angela (33:00):
I hear 13 a lot, so I don't think it's changed much

John (33:03):
really.
Yeah.
Yeah.
13 was kind of always that age.
Where you might have some 12 year oldsthat babysat a little bit, but 13 was the
age where you were at least mature enoughthat you could be left at home alone

Angela (33:16):
for

John (33:17):
short periods of time and watch maybe a younger kid.
And so

Angela (33:22):
I don't know if it's connected, but I feel like 13 is also the age
where you can choose which parent.
I don't know.
I know all states are different,but the general age where you can
choose which parent to live with ifthey're fighting custody type things.
So maybe that has somethingto do with that might

John (33:39):
be the case.
I don't know for sure.
I know that like inWyoming, there is no age.
The judge will take into account what thekids say, but there is no age where a kid
can just decide this is what I'm gonna do.
Right.
And so she, you know,she kept her room clean.
She worked really hard and that nightshe, her mom had decided that she was

(34:03):
gonna take the, well, she didn't decide.
The plan was they were gonna goto the Cub Scout meetings, she was
gonna drop 'em off, and then she wasgonna attend this homemaker class
that was being put on at the church.
And originally Heather was gonnago and then she asked her mom if
she could stay home with Sage.
And one factor that kind ofcomes into this is Sage had just

(34:26):
gotten vaccinations that day.
And you know how that is, hewas feeling Katie, he was kinda
running a fever and feeling crappy.
And so it was a pretty easydecision for mom to say, yeah,
you could stay home with him.
And.
At 13, I there's no issue withthat at all, like at all, you know?
So I'm certainly not criticizingher mom for allowing that because

(34:50):
it's something I would've allowed.
Yeah.
It was very common for, to this

Angela (34:53):
day, people allow that,

John (34:54):
of course.
You know, 13-year-old girl towatch a five-year-old little boy.
There's nothing crazy about that,

Angela (35:00):
especially a brother.
It's not like with somebody she didn'tknow the habits of, and they're at

John (35:05):
her home.
Yeah.
You know, and so I would'vefelt very comfortable doing that
just the way that her mom did.
And so that's what was agreed upon.
And I'm sure that sage feeling crappyfactored into that decision as well.
You know, because we've,any parent has been there.

Both (35:23):
Yeah.
When you have

John (35:23):
A five-year-old or you know, a baby, whatever, when they're feeling
crappy and they have a fever andyou're trying to go to something, yeah.
It's gonna be a nightmare.
They're gonna be fussy.

Angela (35:36):
Yeah.

John (35:36):
And grumpy.
And you're not gonnaget anything outta it.
Rightfully of course.
Yeah.
But you're not gonna getanything out of the class.
You might as well freakingstay home at that point.
And so I'm sure it wasa super easy decision.
And yeah, it was only about 15miles away, which might sound like
a long ways, unless you live inWyoming or Colorado or something.

(35:58):
In which case it's like nothing.
It's like right down the street.
It's like going literally down the blockfor somebody that lives in the city.
And mom left about five 30 and madesure all that, the doors, all the
doors were locked and everything.
And as she was backing out, she noticedthat the bedroom window was open.
And so she thought, well, whenI call Heather, 'cause she was

(36:20):
gonna call her and check in, makesure everything was going good.
So she thought, when I call, I'll justmake sure to tell her to shut that window.
And then, and she did call at eight 30 andHeather said that her end Sage, she asked
if Sage could stay up a little bit becausethey were watching home improvement.

(36:41):
If that doesn't kinda set theset, the time period that we're
in when home improvement was huge.

Angela (36:47):
I just binged that whole series a couple months ago.
It

John (36:51):
was such a good freaking show.
Yep.
They really did a good job with that.
But, you know, so mom said,okay, you can, he can stay up.
She asked to really keep an eye on thatfever, let her know if anything changed.
And you know, said, I love youand I'll be home by 10 o'clock.
And they pulled into the houseabout 10 15 and the house was dark.

(37:15):
And
when they went inside, Heather was gone.
And as soon as she saw that, ofcourse she ran to Sage's crib.
And he was rolled up in hisblankets and just sleeping soundly.
But Heather was nowhere to befound and really nothing was.

(37:36):
Obviously, there wasno signs of a struggle.
There was no signs of a break in nothing.
Huh?
She was just gone.
And so obviously
Diane freaks out.
Right.
And I think she probably did what mostparents in this situation would do.

(37:59):
At first she was thinking, well,you know, maybe she went, you know,
out in the, looking out in theproperty looking for something and
fell down, banged her knee, couldn'tget back to the house or something.
You know, she's walking aroundthe house screaming her name and
all that kind of stuff, nothing.
And then she calls Michaeland asks if he had her, which.

(38:22):
Might sound odd, but I think it wasjust a kind of a how Mary type of thing.
Yeah.
Like maybe on, you know,for some odd reason,

Angela (38:31):
But he would've certainly taken sage too

John (38:34):
of Yeah, he would've, there's no

Angela (38:35):
way

John (38:36):
at this point she's probably in full panic, so she's not thinking rationally.
She's just, honestly, she's probablyjust grasping at straws of anything.
And so he said, you know,no, I don't have her.
But he said immediately he hada feeling and he knew and he

(38:57):
said, call 9 1 1 right now.
I'm on my way.
And so Diane hung up and called9 1 1 and what do you think that,
what do you think she was told

Angela (39:11):
you have to wait 24 to 48 hours?

John (39:15):
Yeah, she probably is with a friend.
And this pisses me off in thisparticular case even more than the
other ones where we've talked about it.
Because we're not talking abouta girl that went to school and

(39:37):
didn't come home from school.
We're not talking about a girlthat was out with friends at the
roller skating rink or whatever.
Yeah.
We are talking about a girlthat was home alone watching her
younger brother and disappeared.
So this idea that she would've run off

Both (39:54):
Is

John (39:55):
absolutely absurd to me.
And the fact that's whatshe was told pisses me off.
But especially

Angela (40:04):
a girl who called to ask if he could stay up later to watch
a show, if she was gonna run away,she would've just let him stay up
later to watch a show without asking.

John (40:14):
Right.
And the idea that shewould leave her brother

Angela (40:19):
exactly alone as getting, she ran off

John (40:21):
and

Angela (40:22):
she showed the responsibility of asking if he could stay up later when
maybe she could have covered it up anyway.
Mom might not have known.
Right.
And so she wouldn't be doingsomething like this then.

John (40:32):
No.
And then you also gotta take intoaccount again where this is not, yeah.
Where's she gonna go?
This is not downtown Colorado Springs.
We're miles out of town.
Where in the hell is she gonna go?
Yeah, they're out on six acres.

Angela (40:47):
That was the thing my parents had too, when they moved us out there, they're
like, well, you'll never sneak out yet.
'cause there's nowhere to go out here.

John (40:54):
Exactly.
And this was that case.
Yeah.
Like I, so it's justabsolutely absurd to me.
But they, she didn't give up.
She kept freaking calling andkept calling until, good job, mom.
Finally, they sent a deputy out, and Igotta say, man, hats off to this deputy
at least, because when he got out there,he was like, oh no, this is not a runaway.

(41:20):
So he called in, was like, we needeverybody out here now because
this little girl is disappearedand she did not run away.

Both (41:30):
Yeah.

John (41:31):
So they did.
Thanks to mom's persistence.
And then, you know, dad also gotout, he, you know, busted ass
out there from his apartment.
So he's out there and afterDiane was told, you know, well,
she has to be gone for so long.
She probably ran offwith friends or whatever.

(41:51):
Then she started calling friends andwas like, can you come help me search?

Angela (41:56):
Yeah.
And

John (41:56):
so there was a whole bunch of family friends and stuff that
showed up out there as well.
Because they were searchingfor this little girl, so
they're all over the property.
Well, worst case scenariofor a crime scene, but

Angela (42:10):
tramline it all down

John (42:12):
when the sheriff's office tells you, tough luck.
Deal with it yourself.
What the hell are you supposed to do?
You deal with it.
You do exactly what she did.
Yeah.
And this is what I would've donetoo, is call as many freaking
people as humanly possible to getout there and start searching.
It's what I have done.
Yeah, exactly.
And you know, just a little, we'regonna spend a little bit more

(42:33):
time talking about this but justa little bit of a. Foreshadowing.
We've got a sheriff by the name ofBernard Berry, who is leading the El Paso
County Sheriff's Office at this time.
He was first elected in 1986.
He was reelected in 1990, and hisoffice was plagued with scandals

(42:55):
from deputy misconduct budget issues.
He was criticized for laxinvestigative practices.
He just wasn't a very great sheriff.
So
El Paso County Sheriff's Office servedall of El Paso County, obviously

(43:16):
over 1900 square miles with botha mix of urban and rural areas.
And they, he had about 200 to 250personnel at the time with all of
his deputies, his jail staff, allof the support staff, everybody.
And that would've been divided intopatrol investigations, jail operations.

(43:38):
And he had a relatively smallinvestigative force of around 10
to 15 detectives, and they wereundertrained for major crimes.
Their focus was on rural stuff, andthey had very strange resources.
The county during this period of timewas just plagued with underfunding.
Their budget in 91 was like 10 to 12million, which was completely insufficient

(44:04):
for as fast as the county was growing.
You know, his countyincluded Colorado Springs

Angela (44:09):
400 and some thousand people.
Yeah.
Yeah.

John (44:12):
And and it's a big freaking county.
A lot of people, and with as much good asour military personnel do, and obviously
they keep us safe, they protect us.
But any, anytime that you have alarge prop population of military
personnel in an area, you have issues.

(44:33):
For the most part, especially in 91, therewasn't a lot of females in the military.
Obviously.
It was growing.

Both (44:40):
Yeah.

John (44:40):
But it was predominantly a bunch of single males that are dropped into an
area and we're talking thousands of them.

Both (44:49):
Yeah.

John (44:49):
And you know, just that by itself, you have all kinds of, and
most of it's minor crimes, drinkingand just nonsensical bullshit that
18, 19, 20-year-old dipshit boys do.
When they're running around,you know, we all did it.
But it does task the law enforcementagencies to deal with all that

(45:10):
bullshit that comes with it, you know?
And then anytime you bring in thatmany people, some, a good portion of
those are a percentage I shouldn'tsay a good portion, a percentage of
those people is gonna be criminals.
And we know that every place there'smilitary bases, a certain percentage of
the military personnel, soldiers, sailors,airmen, whatever it is, are criminals.

(45:34):
And so they start committingcrimes in that area.
They gotta deal with that.
So this sheriff's office along withthe Colorado Springs Police Department,
they got a lot of shit going on.
They got a lot of stuff to deal with,and you gotta budget enough money
for 'em to be able to handle it.
You know, to our earlier conversationwith homicide hunter and all of the

(45:57):
crimes that were going on at ColoradoSprings, that's obviously gonna
extend out into the county as well.

Angela (46:03):
Yeah.

John (46:03):
You know, then they had outdated equipment.
He restricted overtime.
It was just a completelymismanaged department.
And then there were multiple deputymisconduct cases, excessive force
complaints, DUI, arrests of off-dutydeputies, misuse of funds complaints.

(46:26):
A 1989 internal probe revealedfavoritism in promotions.
The public trust had completely erodedin the department and the Gazette
Telegraph criticized the El Paso CountySheriff's Office as ping dysfunctional,
and Barry's response was defensive andhe took little to no accountability.

(46:50):
In their investigative practices,they had very lax protocols.
No standardized crime scene management.
Fingerprints were often mishandled.
There was no chain of custody set up.
They didn't use the FBI resourceslike ViCAP or aphis, and cold
cases were just flat out neglected.
And then you have therural area of black forest.

(47:14):
And so it was about, there wasabout a, by the time Diane finally
convinced him to send a deputy,it was about 30 to 45 minutes.
And so Sheriff Barry really fostered
where is my.
So Sheriff Barry really fostered aculture of complacency within the

(47:35):
El Paso County Sheriff's Departmentwith all the crap that we already
talked about, you know, politicalfavoritism and you know what that's
gonna do to the morale of a department.
If the only way that you can getpromoted is who you know Yeah.
Or who's ass you kiss andnot by your performance,

Angela (47:51):
that's never a good thing.

John (47:52):
It's gonna destroy morale, which it did.
And then,
you know, so then itbreeds kind of a split.
And I don't know enough about it tosay for sure whether this happened,
but I'm almost positive it did, becauseit always does, where you have these
officers that are loyal to the sheriff.

(48:14):
And then these officers thatthink he's a dipshit and can't
wait for him to get out of there.
And so they hate each other.

Angela (48:21):
So you

John (48:21):
have your own officers that are on two different sides of the same team.

Angela (48:26):
Yeah.

John (48:26):
And it's not unusual.
I hope that we're getting away from thatand I think in a lot of places we are,
but it still happens and it probablyalways will happen to a certain degree,
but from what I understand, it was prettyfreaking bad during this period of time.

Angela (48:45):
Okay.

John (48:47):
So
once on the scene, you know, they gotout there, they searched, they treated
it though essentially like it was arunaway or just a missing juvenile.
Like she wandered off and they didn'treally treat it like an abduction.
They did.

(49:08):
Thank God that one of the officersdid notice that the screen in
the master bedroom window waslike, not put incorrectly.

Angela (49:20):
Oh, okay.

John (49:20):
And so they fingerprinted it and they did pull fingerprints off of that
screen, which will come into play later.
But it they didn't secure the scene.
It's, I know we haven't coveredthe JonBenet Ramsey case, but I've
mentioned it several times and it'sremarkable how similar this case is

(49:41):
to that they didn't secure the scene.
So all of the friends and family thatcame out to help search were all over the
freaking place in and out of the house.
And so we know that's never a goodthing for a crime scene, you know?
And there, there just really wasan absolute lack of urgency on

(50:02):
the part of the sheriff's office.
So they really didn't searchat in during the night.
They waited until the light ofday and they said that valuable

Angela (50:14):
hours.

John (50:15):
Yeah.
And they said that it was justtoo dark, they couldn't do it.
And so there was no floodlights,no helicopters, no canine units
deployed immediately and they justpostponed everything until daylight.
And then they, you know, once theydid kinda start searching, they, you
know, went and, you know, knockedon neighbor's doors and asked if

(50:35):
they'd seen her and that kinda stuff.
But it was just very lackadaisicaland frankly, it just pisses me
off the way that it was handled.
You know, I don't know how we talkedabout this before with them treating it
like she ran away, but at this point.
I don't know why you don'thave roadblocks set up.

(50:58):
Right.
All the way around there.
Nobody comes in and goes out without,because in my opinion, this is obviously
an abduction at this point is there arare maybe possibility that a friend
picked her up and we don't know?
Well, maybe, but you treat it like it's an

Angela (51:18):
abduction.
It is so rare because she wouldn'thave left sage, I don't think.
And she's

John (51:23):
13.
She's not 16.
So unless there's reason to believethat she's hanging around with older
kids, her friend group can't drive.
Not for a while.
You know, and it, I know that Isaid this before, but yes, we're
talking about a teenager, but just.

(51:43):
Barely.
Just barely and not really.
Yeah.
Because we know that just long

Angela (51:48):
enough for the definition of the word.

John (51:50):
Yes.
A 13-year-old isn't really a teenager yet.
They're not even into that whole,

Angela (51:57):
don't they call 'em tween now?

John (51:59):
Probably.
Which probably fits morebecause there is a delineation.
Yeah.
You know, and really it can include14, although by 14 some of those
kids are kind of starting intothat whole teenage mentality

Both (52:12):
of,

John (52:13):
Rebellion and everything.
But not very many 13 year olds,they're still more on the playing
with dolls side of things than theyare smoking cigarettes and rebelling
against mom and dad's side of things.
Right.
You know, and so it just kind of blowsmy freaking mind that they would consider
anything other than an abduction.

(52:34):
But they did.
And you know, the public reaction,the community was in shock
and obviously scared shitless.
You know, here you are in this prettysmall community outside of Colorado
Springs where the bad stuff happensand you're out here in the rural areas

(52:55):
where you think that you're safe andthen something like this happens.
And they had to be just terrified.

Both (53:05):
Yeah.
And

John (53:05):
parents in that area and really probably all over Colorado Springs
had to be like, not letting their kidsout of their sight and just freaking,

Angela (53:15):
where are you going?
What are you doing?
Yeah.

John (53:16):
Panicked because of this, you know.
And then, so there was, thepublic did get involved.
The reporters in the area really gotinvolved and I think they were pretty
great during this period of time.
Really jumped on this and theystarted the, where's Heather campaign?
And they had yellow ribbons that were tiedto trees all around the Black Forest area.

(53:40):
And along the road, volunteers cameout to aid in their searches, they
spread flyers all over the place.
They put billboards up.
And then by October of 1991, the friendsof Heather Don Church Foundation was
formed to, you know, for fundraisingand to drive some awareness.

(54:02):
And over 30 officers, FBI, search andRescue were involved in that initially.
And then residents organized vigils,neighborhood watches, and you
know, the fear of this definitelyled to heightened vigilance.
And you know, then where you reallystart seeing this kind of bleed

(54:27):
into Joe Kenda and the ColoradoSprings Police Department is.
You know, none of thishappens in a vacuum.
And so parents in Colorado Springsare freaking terrified too,
because this isn't very far away.
And so the reports of missing childrenskyrocket in the Colorado Springs Police

(54:50):
Department, as well as the El Paso County.
So every time a kid is 15 minuteslate coming home, they're calling
the cops because they're freaking,yeah, panicking mean, of course,
everybody's freaking terrified over this.
And there was a lot of publicoutrage over the Sheriff's Office
handling of this entire case.

(55:13):
The, they were not happy with thiswhatsoever, and the reporters openly
were criticizing the Sheriff's Office.
And then the case was featuredon America's Most Wanted, and
that generated hundreds of tips.
And, you know, the newspapers the tv,there's a TV station in Colorado Springs.

(55:35):
They were running this.
Just one.
Just one.
Just one.
Yeah.
I'm pretty sure it's just one.
Yeah.
They were running allof this kind of stuff.
I'm sure I didn't see any of thiscoverage, but I have no doubt in
my mind that the Denver stationswould've all also been covering this.
It's not very far away.
And, you know, the Denver stations arepretty good about covering everything

(55:56):
in Colorado, unlike some city or somestates, you know, like California or
New York, or even Texas or whatever.
Colorado has Denver and it's a prettylarge city, but outside of that, most
of Colorado is not heavily populated.
Right.
So there's not a shit tonof TV stations in Colorado.

(56:18):
Huh.
You know, and so the vastmajority of them are in.
Denver and then there's, then thereis one in, in Colorado Springs.
But no doubt that Denver stationswould've been covering all of this
and everything as well, but nothingfor the longest freaking time.
Geez.
And so

(56:39):
I,
you know, you put yourself in this poorfamily shoes where all of this happens.
They come home, daughter'sgone, and then nothing.
And then in September of 1993,almost exactly two years after

(57:03):
Heather disappeared, anotherreally weird ass thing happens.
The one of the reporters for the local TVstation, and I think it's a CBS affiliate.
If I remember right.
Not that's very important, but shegets this call and this guy says to a

(57:26):
reporter, this is jacked up, says tothis reporter, I just saw something.
And so she's like, okay.

Angela (57:36):
Yeah.

John (57:37):
And he's like, we were out on Rampart Road and I
saw a skull, a human skull.
And so she kinda got the specifics just

Angela (57:45):
kind of calling a reporter instead of the police.

John (57:48):
Yeah.

Angela (57:49):
Okay.

John (57:49):
And wouldn't give his name or any information.
And so obviously she calls the ColoradoSprings Police Department and they go
out and they do a search and they find ahuman skull out off of Rampart Range Road,
which is just west of Colorado Springs.

(58:11):
So it kinda, I dunno if you'refamiliar with like Garden of the
Gods, but it's this area that'sit's got like all these really cool
rock formations and stuff like that.
Okay.
And it's called Garden of the Gods.
And you can drive up through there andthen off of the Garden of the Gods Road,
Rampart Road takes off and then that headskind of up into the mountains up there.

(58:34):
So that's the area wherewe're talking about.
And it's about 30 to 40 miles fromBlack Forest and it's a pretty remote
road in the Pike National Forest.
It's anymore, it's used veryheavily for joggers and mountain

(58:55):
bikers and hikers and stuff.
And in 91 it probably was too, althoughthe population is considerably larger in
Colorado Springs now than it was in 91.
And they went out there andthey found this skull and.
So obviously it's beenout there for two years.

(59:15):
So it's mostly skeletonized and itwas primarily the skull, although
than they did search and findother bones and stuff like that.
No soft tissue.
But there was evidence of bluntforce trauma on the head, which
was ruled the cause of death.

(59:38):
And so that, that was sent to the DouglasCounty coroner who performed the autopsy
and they made the identification off ofdental records and confirmed that it was
Heather's little body that was found offof Rampart Road, out of Colorado Springs.
You know, I. I said that BlackForest is north of Colorado Springs.

(01:00:03):
This area is west of Colorado Springs.
So essentially you gotta drive all theway back down to Colorado Springs and
then head west to get out to this area.
So it was a pretty significantdrive from where she was taken from.
And
so the El Paso County Sheriff'sOffice still under Sheriff

(01:00:26):
Barry they secured the scene.
Obviously they are now working withColorado Springs Police Department,
but this is still their scene.
This

Both (01:00:35):
is

John (01:00:36):
their crime.
And so at that point, the case wasreclassified from abduction or missing
persons to a homicide case becausewe determined the cause of death
was blunt force trauma to the head.
So obviously it's a homicide, right?
And.

(01:00:56):
And then
not a lot more happens after that.
They, they found the body, but theydidn't really do a whole lot else.
And I will say that I, they foundsome clothing wrapped around the neck
and so the cause of death was bothstrangulation and blunt force trauma.

(01:01:20):
And obviously because of the decompositionover two years laying out there, yeah,
it was hard for him to make a definitivedetermination, but it was homicide.
So I then, you know, not a wholehell of a lot else goes on.
And so if you haven't read the book

(01:01:41):
John Wesley Anderson.
Wrote the book, literally wrotethe book entitled Lou and JonBenet,
and it was about the Lou Schmidt'sinvolvement in the JonBenet Ramsey case.
But in that book John Anderson goes quitein depth into how all of this transpired.

(01:02:03):
His really, his whole career.
So John Anderson started with theColorado Police Department, Colorado
Springs Police Department in 1972 as anofficer, and he continued to just work
up through the ranks with the department.
At one time, he worked under Joe Kenda.

(01:02:24):
Joe Kenda was his boss.
And then, he was at some kind ofa seminar or something like that,
and at this seminar they toldhim, you know, write down your.
Like they do in allthose kind of seminars.
Write down your goals for the endof this year, and where do you see
yourself in five years and wheredo you see yourself, whatever.
And one of his goals was, I want runa major law enforcement department.

(01:02:51):
And and he said that he hadn't reallyrealized it, but a lot of the stuff that
he was doing in his career at that timewas not moving him towards that goal.
And so he needed a few other areas tokind of f fill out his resume, you know?
And he accepted other positions, be it

(01:03:12):
what do you call it when thefreaking cops investigate themselves.

Angela (01:03:15):
Oh.

John (01:03:16):
Ia, yeah.
Internal affairs.

Both (01:03:18):
Yeah.

John (01:03:19):
You know, be it like IA or Internal Affairs, which is a position that he
accepted because, you know, although he'dbeen involved in like minor deals, you
know, with, if you're in a leadership rolewith rank in like a police department or
something, if one of your officers has acitizen complaint or something like they
were rude to 'em or whatever, you'd doa little bit of your own investigation.

(01:03:42):
But as far as like really investigatinglaw enforcement officers, that's
reserved for IA investigators.
And so he had an opportunity todo that, and he jumped on it.
And by the time, you know, this thediscovery of the body and everything
rolled around John Anderson had.

(01:04:05):
Pretty mu pretty well filledout his resume because he had
been focused on doing that.
He took a teaching position for a while.
He taught, you know, when he wasearly in his career, he asked, you
know, how can I move up the ranks?
How can I become an investigator?
All this, they said,get a college education.
So while he was working as anofficer, he was also attending

(01:04:27):
college classes to get his degree.
He is really focused and hewas teamed up with Lou Schmidt.
And so him and Lou Schmidtwere partners, worked together
on multiple different cases.
And anytime you, you're gonna hear me talkabout Lou Smit, I talk about him with a

(01:04:48):
large degree of respect, because I thinkhe's one of the freaking best detectives,

Angela (01:04:56):
right?

John (01:04:56):
He's legendary in the entire country, not just in Colorado.
And so having an opportunityfor an investigator to work
under Lou Smit was huge.
And you know, he learned a lot from that.
And he watched this Heather Don Churchcase basically die on the vine with

(01:05:19):
the El Paso County Sheriff's Office.
And he was getting extremelyfrustrated about it.
And he knew that being, I can't rememberexactly what position he was in with
the Colorado Springs Police Departmentat this particular time, but he knew
that he would never have any impactwhatsoever on the Heather Don Church case,

(01:05:41):
because here he is in Colorado Springs.
It's out of their jurisdiction, right?
And so he made the decision that he wasgoing to run for El Paso County Sheriff,
and it's a position that his uncle,I believe his uncle or his granddad.
He comes from a line of cops.
And one of his, one of his relativeshad been the El Paso County

(01:06:07):
Sheriff's off had been the ElPaso County Sheriff in years past.
So this kinda runs in his blood anyway.
And so in early 1994, hedecided that he was gonna run
and he announced his candidacy.
He did it.
The guy is a freaking straight up dude.
At first he went to his boss andsaid, I've decided to do this.

(01:06:28):
And so just

Angela (01:06:30):
bailing.
Yeah.

John (01:06:31):
And actually, if I remember correctly, that's when his boss moved
him into IA because he didn't wanthim in any position that could be
perceived as a conflict of interest.
And so that kind of rounded out his resumebeing put in IA at that period of time.
And then he went to Sheriff Barry andsat down and told him, and he had kind

(01:06:53):
of expected that Barry wasn't gonnarun again, that he was gonna retire.
But Barry informed him, no he wasn't.
He was gonna run and he was pissed offat John Anderson for running against him.
And so whatever.
But he launched his campaignand that kicked off in 94.
And his message was his sheriff'soffice was gonna be reform focused,

(01:07:18):
emphasizing on El Paso County Sheriff'sOffice scandals, the mishandled cases.
And he targeted voters throughcommunity meetings and media and really
just basically said, I'm gonna dowhat these guys haven't been doing.
I.

(01:07:38):
You know, they went and they,it was just a full on campaign.
They had town halls, they haddebates, and during these debates he
would highlight Heather Don Church'scase as much as he possibly could.
And it was really nearand dear to his heart.
I don't know exactly why, and Idon't know that we ever know why
it is that a case just grabs ahold of us and doesn't let go.

Both (01:08:01):
But

John (01:08:01):
this one did for John Anderson and just grabbed him and wouldn't let him go.
And so he was going to change it.
And he sat down with Lou Smitand asked him and said, you know,
if I do this, I'm going to needyou as my chief of detectives.
And Lou agreed and said, yep.

(01:08:23):
If you win, then I'll beyour chief of detectives.
And so I think that'sa good place to close.
This first episode gives us a prettygood idea of kind of where we're
at and where we were at in 1994.
Is almost no closer than we were in 1991.

(01:08:45):
And you gotta put yourself in theshoes of this poor family that, you
know, you're three years now withabsolutely no answers and honestly the
Sheriff's department has done next tonothing to find your daughter and then
now to find your daughter's killer.

(01:09:08):
So do you have any thoughtsor input questions, anything,

Angela (01:09:12):
just irritated.

John (01:09:13):
Yeah, it's pretty freaking

Angela (01:09:15):
irritating.

John (01:09:16):
So Heather Don Church did not run away.
She didn't slip out theback door to meet a friend.
She didn't leave a note or a trail.
She was 13 years old doing her homework,waiting for her family to come home.
And somewhere between the rhythmof her pencil and the silence

(01:09:37):
of black forest, that Blackforest evening, someone took her.
The investigation should havelaunched like wildfire, but it didn't.
The house wasn't locked down.
Leads were not followed.
Forensics were barely processed, andinstead of digging deeper, law enforcement
looked inward at the family, at thefather, at the usual suspects, while

(01:10:03):
the truth slipped further out of reach.
For over two years, there were noanswers, no arrests, no progress.
Just grief, just.
Silence
until September 27th, 1993 when aset of skeletal remains was found
in a ravine over 30 miles away.

(01:10:26):
It was Heather.
And now the question wasno longer where she was.
It was who had put her there andwhy no one had found them yet
for a man named John Anderson,that question would not let go.
He spent decades in lawenforcement, but this was personal.

(01:10:46):
He saw a system that had failed achild, and he refused to stay silent.
So he did what most ofus wouldn't dare to do.
He came out, I don't think he was retired.
He wasn't retired, so he did whatmost of us wouldn't dare to do.
He came out there, put his nameon a ballot, ran for sheriff.

(01:11:10):
Not for power, not for politics, butto solve a case that no one else could.
And he didn't know then what theinvest, what the investigation would
uncover or what it would lead him,or that it would lead him straight
to one of the most prolific anddangerous men Colorado had ever seen.

(01:11:33):
He only knew that Heather deservedbetter, that her family deserved answers,
that someone had to do the job right?
And so the search for justicebegan again, not from inside the
system, but by challenging it.
So next time we'll step into thatmoment, the election of a sheriff with

(01:11:56):
a mission and the decision to bringin one of the most legendary cold case
detectives this country has ever known.
Lou Smit.
Because sometimes the only way tofind the truth is to start over.
This is dark dialogue, and this hasbeen the forest kept her silence.

(01:12:21):
So before the headlines, beforethe manhunt, before the years of
aching silence, there was Heather,Don Church was just 13 years old.
A quiet soul in a busy house, thoughtful,artistic, the kind of girl who loved to
draw and who had a soft spot for animals.

(01:12:42):
She was the big sister, steady,responsible, and protective
of her younger brothers.
She had just joined the Honor Society.
She wore glasses, smiled, shyly in school,pictures, and had dreams that stretched
far beyond the pines of Black forest.
She wasn't the loudest in the room, butshe was the kind of person people noticed

(01:13:04):
because she listened, because she cared.
Because even as a kid, she had thatrare kind of depth that doesn't
need to be announced to be felt.
And she deserved so much morethan what happened that night.
Heather's life didn't endbecause she took a risk.
It didn't end because ofrebellion or recklessness.

(01:13:28):
It ended because someoneevil crossed her path.
And the tragedy is not just that shewas taken, but that the world never
got to see what she would've become.
A teacher, an artist, ascientist, a mother, a friend.

(01:13:48):
We talk about victims becausetheir names deserve to be said.
We remember them, not for howthey died, but for how they lived.
Heather's story didn'tbegin in a crime scene.
It began with a little girl who lovedher family, who sat at her dining room
table doing homework on a Thursdaynight, and who should have grown up

(01:14:09):
to become something extraordinary.
So tonight, we don't justremember the victim of a crime.
We remember the daughter, the sister,the artist, the child who should
have had her whole life ahead of her.
So this is for Heather.

Angela (01:14:27):
So if this episode impacted you, please take a
moment to share Heather's story.
Too often, victims like Heather areremembered only for how they died, but
we believe the world should know who theywere and the full truth of what happened.

John (01:14:42):
If you wanna support our work and help bring attention to more cold
cases like Heather's, you can join uson Patreon or buy [e-mail].
Every contribution goes directlyinto the research, production and
amplification of these stories.

Angela (01:15:00):
You can also read our full case notes, access behind the scenes content,
and get [e-mail].
And while you're there, check out ourAdoptive Victim program where you can help
keep lesser known cases in the public eye,

John (01:15:17):
have information on a case that we've covered, or
maybe one that we should.
You can reach us anytimeat [e-mail].
We read every message andwe take your tips seriously.

Angela (01:15:29):
Also, follow us on social media to stay up to date with new
episodes, upcoming cases, and ways youcan support the search for justice.

John (01:15:38):
This is only the beginning of Heather Don Church's story.
Next, next episode, we'll follow theman who refused to let her case go cold
and how one election changed everything.
Until then, keep the dialogue alive.