Heather Dawn Church Part 4: The Killer Who Counted on Silence

Episode Transcript
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John (00:00):
Hopefully this is gonna work.

(00:01):
Okay.
Looks pretty good.

Angela (00:03):
Are we finishing the last

John (00:06):
Yeah, we're gonna have to redo it.
I think we'll see where we're at.
I don't have any shadowchats written for today.

Angela (00:12):
Okay.

John (00:13):
So I don't know.
We, there probably won't be anyposted this week, so we'll have Sure.
We'll have other episodes that I can getedited and keep up with the schedule and
we'll have one shadow chat anyway, so.

Angela (00:26):
Well, I did put out that post you asked me to so people Yeah, I saw that.
I don't know if anybody's actuallyexpecting a whole lot from us, but,

John (00:34):
and I also said it on
Heather Dun Church part threethat I posted this week.
I added a little part atthe beginning just saying,

Angela (00:47):
work at no month.

John (00:48):
Yeah.
This is the deal.
Gotcha.
Schedule's cut.
Probably gonna be alittle jacked for a bit.
It is what it is.
It is what

Angela (00:54):
it is.
So, okay.
Family comes first.

John (00:56):
Yep.
Yeah.
I really have no choice on this one 'causeI'm not leaving it to my mom to handle.

Angela (01:02):
I don't blame you.
I don't blame you at all.

John (01:04):
All right, here we go.
On August 15th, 2006, the worldlost someone irreplaceable.
Candace Hilts was just 17 years old,but she carried herself with the kind of
strength, wit, and determination that madepeople twice her age stop and take notice.

(01:27):
She was a devoted daughter, a fiercesister, and a young mother whose
love for her little girl was asboundless as it was in unconditional.
Candace's daughter was bornwith hydrocephalus, a condition
that brought daily challenges.
But Candace never wavered.
She poured every ounce of herselfinto caring for her child, fighting

(01:49):
for her, advocating for her,and loving her through it all.
That love was not quiet or fragile.
It was fierce, protective,and full of hope.
And though Candace's daughter hassince passed on as well, there
is comfort in knowing that motherand daughter are together again.
Their bond unbroken,their love everlasting.

(02:13):
Candace was brilliant.
She dreamed big, and she had thekind of intellect that could have
carried her anywhere she wanted to go.
Friends and family knew her as someone whowouldn't back down, not from an argument,
not from injustice, and certainly notfrom protecting those that she loved.
She was tough, yes, butshe was also tender.

(02:37):
Her laughter could fill a room,and her kindness made those
around her feel seen and valued.
Her life was stolen far too soon in an actof cruelty that can never be justified.
But that is not how we remember her.
We remember Candace for her courage,her fire, her humor, and the way

(02:59):
that she loved with her whole heart.
We remember the way that she looked outfor her family, the way that she adored
her daughter, and the way that shelived without apology for who she was.
Today, as we mark the anniversaryof her death, we choose not to
dwell only in grief, but also inremembrance of all that she was.

(03:22):
Candace Hilts and her preciousdaughter both left this world far
too soon, but their spirits endure.
Their love remains touched in thehearts of those who knew them.
And their story continues to remindus of the fragility of life, the
injustice of violence, and the necessityof keeping their memories alive.

(03:45):
Candace's name deserves to be spoken.
Her life deserves to be honored, andher legacy deserves to be carried
forward with the same strengththat she embodied on this day.
And always we remember her not justas a victim of tragedy, but as a
radiant young woman whose love andlight can never truly be taken away.

(04:09):
Let us take a moment to holdCandace in our thoughts to honor her
daughter, and the family who stillfeels her absence every single day.
And now with her memory guidingus, we turn to the story itself.
Not to relive the pain, but to seektruth, to confront injustice, and to

(04:32):
endure, and to ensure that her name, herlife, and her legacy are never forgotten.

Angela (04:43):
We a landing pad.
Now

John (04:46):
that's definitely a chopper.

Angela (04:47):
Yeah.

John (04:50):
Probably Fire

Angela (04:51):
wings and wheels is in Powell this week.

John (04:54):
Oh.
Might be that too.

Angela (04:56):
Okay.

John (04:59):
When detectives arrested Robert Charles Brown in 1995, they
believed that they were closing onecase, one murder, one fingerprint.
One young girl taken from her homeand left in a, and left in a ravine.
They weren't just solvingHeather Don Church's homicide.
They were opening a door, A door intosomething much darker, much wider, and

(05:24):
far more terrifying than anyone expectedbecause Brown wasn't a one-time killer.
He wasn't reckless.
He was methodical, calculatedthe kind of man who took lives
like he was checking boxes.
And the more investigators dug intohis past, the more they started to
realize Heather May not have beenhis first victim, and she wouldn't

(05:49):
be the last name he claimed.
In this episode, we confrontthe man behind the fingerprint.
We'll walk through Robert Charles Brown'sbackground, his quiet drifting existence,
his disturbing calm, and the moment hebecame more than just a name and a file.
We'll examine how Lou Smit built thecase with forensic precision and why

(06:11):
his approach gave prosecutors exactlywhat they needed to secure exactly what
they needed to secure a confession.
But we'll also ask the harder question,how many other lives did Brown take?
He later claimed responsibility fordozens of murders across the country.
Some were confirmed.

(06:33):
Others felt like bait.
Were they credible or were they justtwisted power plays of a man who
knew how to manipulate the system?
Well look at one ofthose potential victims.
That's not potential.
We'll look at one of his victims,Rossio Sperry, a young woman from
Colorado who vanished under eerilyfamiliar circumstances and will

(06:56):
read through the chilling lettersthat Brown sent to investigators.
Taunting, calculating, andat times infuriatingly vague.
Along the way, we'll also examinethe system itself, like the anonymous
letter that pointed to a legaldisaster in Colorado, a 90 day window
in which the death penalty was offthe books, right when Brown confessed

(07:21):
a loophole that may have spared hislife and shattered public trust, but
through it all, one truth remains.
Heather Don Church's case was thethread that unraveled the lie, and the
people who brought Brown to Justice,John Anderson, Lou Smit, and the church

(07:42):
family refused to let the thread be cut.
This isn't just the end of a case.
It's the beginning of accountabilityand the haunting realization
of what we still don't know.
Angela, how's it going today?

Angela (08:00):
Hey, that's all I've got.
Just noises.
That

John (08:05):
good, huh?
Yeah.

Angela (08:06):
Yeah.

John (08:07):
It's been a

Angela (08:07):
while.
It's been a minute.

John (08:09):
It's been a minute.
It's been a rough bit.
I tell you what

Angela (08:13):
I have, I have to be honest that it's been long enough that,
and you don't have me research, soyou get my honest reactions Yep.
That I, I'm having some memory issues

John (08:26):
with.
You said

Angela (08:27):
Lou Min, I was like, oh yeah, that's the case we're talking about.
I'm so

John (08:30):
sorry.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's been a while.
So it's been, it's

Angela (08:34):
been a little bit, but family comes first, so,

John (08:37):
yeah.
And you know, to that, I just wannareiterate our appreciation for the
listeners that keep tuning in, even thoughthe schedule is a bit in flux right now.
Mm-hmm.
Um,

Angela (08:47):
it happens to everybody.

John (08:48):
Yeah, it does.
You know, and unfortunately I'mdealing with a. Situation where
I'm living at the damn hospital.
And so it, yeah, it just is what it is.
So I really appreciate everybody's supportand, you know, continuing to support
and help out the show and listen tothe episodes as we get 'em out and Yep.

(09:08):
You know, eventually we willget things back on track.
We're still here, so, but yeah, I havenot slowed down research, that's for sure.
No,

Angela (09:17):
he has not.

John (09:18):
Oh.
I mean, have all kinds of newmaterial when we finally get back
into the full swing of things.
But, um, we're here today, soYeah, let's jump into this one.
Let's do it.
So

Angela (09:30):
just don't expect me to remember a lot because it's all a refresher now.

John (09:33):
Well, and that, that maybe is good.
It'll give you an opportunityto ask questions new that the
listeners might also have.
Okay.
So yeah feel free, jump in, ask whatever.
So.
But when the name Robert Charles Brownhit the file, it should have been a
break, a resolution, a full stop, butinstead it turned out to be a doorway.

(09:55):
And what waited on the other sidewas far worse than anyone expected.

Angela (10:02):
Yeah, I don't really have an organic response here.

John (10:08):
That's fine.

Angela (10:08):
I'm glad I can make you laugh though.

John (10:11):
So listeners, welcome back to Dark Dialogue, the podcast where we
unravel the shadows of the human mindand dive deep into the mysteries that
haunt small towns and big cities alike.
I'm your host John.

Angela (10:23):
And I'm Angela.
And together we'll shine a light on thestories that keep us up at night, unsolved
disappearances live stolen too soon, andthe questions that refuse to be buried.

John (10:33):
In this episode, we're stepping into the aftermath.
Robert Charles Brown's arrest, hisbackground and his eventual confession
to the murder of Heather Don Church, butwe're also looking at what he claimed
afterward, confessions to dozens ofmurders, some credible, some possibly
manipulative, and all of them chilling.

Angela (10:55):
We'll also hear from him directly through the letters he sent
to the law enforcement, and we'll talkabout the disturbing timing of it all,
like the moment, an anonymous letterrevealed that Colorado's death penalty
had lapsed right when Brown confessed.

John (11:10):
If you believe cases like this deserve more than just a headline,
take a moment now to follow the show.
Leave a review, give a thumbs up, andmost importantly, share this episode.
The more people that hear these names, theharder it is for the truth to be buried.

Angela (11:28):
Your support helps keep these cases alive.
Helps us keep asking the hardquestions that don't go away just
because the system says case closed.

John (11:38):
And one thing that I did want to mention before we jump into this episode
that I completely spaced out at thebeginning, but we have a whole new website
and it's still under construction, butit's all redesigned and you can find all
of our episodes there and all kinds ofcool stuff and more cool stuff coming.

(12:00):
So

Angela (12:01):
nice.

John (12:01):
Yep.
Check out the new website.
So it's been

Angela (12:03):
working hard.

John (12:05):
Yeah.
I've always got something goingthat I get myself into and say,
what in the hell were you thinking?
But, but with that said

Angela (12:14):
this, don't answer yourself.

John (12:16):
Oh yeah.
I always answer myself.
Yeah.
So

Angela (12:18):
what were you thinking?

John (12:20):
What was I thinking when I did this?
I thought it was not going to be asfreaking difficult and cumbersome
as it actually turned out to be.

Angela (12:28):
This is your life though.

John (12:30):
It is.

Angela (12:31):
Okay.

John (12:31):
But the cool part about it is we moved to a different host, which allows
all kinds of really cool stuff to happen.
So we'll be able to do a lotbetter than just the generic
website that we had before.
So I'm excited about it.

Angela (12:47):
Yeah, it looks good.

John (12:48):
Thank you.
You're welcome.
So with that, this is dark dialogue andthis is the forest kept her silence.
All right.
So, you know, just the quick recap becauseit's been a little bit, we've got, you
know, Heather Don Church went missing whenher mom took her, took the two brothers

(13:12):
out to the Boy Scout meeting and shewas going to the parenting group Yeah.
At the church.
And Heather Don Church disappearedand the case pretty much went
cold right from the start.
Then her body was founda couple years later.
Outside of Colorado Springs, about 40miles from where she was taken from.
And then after that itpretty much went cold again.

(13:35):
And so, John Anderson, who had, was,had worked for the Colorado Springs
Police Department for quite a longtime, made the decision to go ahead
and run for sheriff earlier than hehad expected to, specifically because
this case had been mishandled frankly.
And on making the decision to do that,he reached out to his friend and mentor

(13:56):
Lou Smit and asked him to join him atthe El Paso County Sheriff's Office if
he won to become his chief of detectives.

Angela (14:04):
Right.
Okay.

John (14:05):
Which Lou agreed to Anderson, won the election, became the sheriff, and
Lou Smit came over, dove into the files,found the fingerprint, and realized
that it hadn't been submitted to.
92 different places.
Geez.
Resubmitted it to allthose different places.
Got the fingerprint and found thisass hat who was Heather's neighbor.

Angela (14:31):
I've missed that

John (14:33):
ass hat.

Angela (14:33):
Yeah.

John (14:34):
Yeah.
Well, you know, you canalways rely on me Yes.
For that word.

Angela (14:38):
Just text you.
Hey, can you just say ass hatt real fast?
'cause

John (14:41):
Yep, exactly.
Yeah.
So, but, so that's kindawhere we're at right now.
So the douche bag has been arrestedand we're moving on from there.
So it's just a quick recapof the, of where we're at.
Okay.
Because it's probably not been aslong since the listeners listened
to the episodes as it has since werecorded the episodes, but just in case

Angela (15:04):
I feel capped.
We're good.

John (15:06):
Perfect.
So, Robert, Charles Brown was bornOctober 31st, 1952 in Kasra, Louisiana.
Yeah, when you go to Louisiana,you got all kinds of words that
you can't freaking pronounce.

Angela (15:19):
That doesn't sound like one of 'em, though.
It's That sounds closerto Mexico, doesn't it?
I'm

John (15:23):
probably saying it wrong.
'cause Am I being stereotypical?
I'm sorry.
Well, not really, because ifit was Mexico, it would sound
more Spanish, which this does.
Louisiana definitely hasa more French influence.

Angela (15:36):
Oh, so maybe it's Kade.

John (15:39):
It's C-A-C-O-U-S-H-A-T-T-A.
Kata.

Angela (15:48):
There you go.

John (15:52):
I don't know.
It's probably something like that.
Huge French in influence in Louisiana.
Well, the French owned Louisiana,and then we bought it from 'em.
So, I mean, and then youget this, I don't know.
Have you ever been to Louisiana?
Nope.
So you talked, does that

Angela (16:07):
shock you?

John (16:07):
No, not really at all.
It would've shocked meif you'd have said yes.
Austin, you got the, I've been to

Angela (16:12):
Kentucky when I was one.

John (16:14):
It's a beautiful state.
That's

Angela (16:15):
a, that's it.
I love

John (16:16):
Kentucky.
But you know, in Louisiana you get theFrench influence, but then a lot of the,
the slaves were brought over from Africa.
Mm-hmm.
Some of them from like the Caribbean,Jamaica and stuff like that.
So you have a strongAfrican language influence.
You have a strong, likeJamaican influence.

(16:39):
Right.
And you get this,
it's like a mixed mash of language.
Mm-hmm.
Called Creole, where

Angela (16:49):
Ah, yeah.

John (16:49):
Like you try to listen to 'em and they, they see how this stuff,
and you can't understand any of it.
And then they'll throw in an Englishword and you'll be like, okay, fish.
I know that is fish.
Fish, okay.
Yeah.
But you can't put theEnglish words together.
It's still fun to listen to though.
Makes sense.
Because, and they, it's so fast.
But you know, some of the wordsare French, some of the words are
African, some of the words areEnglish and it's like all mixed up.

(17:11):
And it's cool as shit.
But you may as well bespeaking all French.
Yeah.
For me, because I can'tunderstand any of it.
Yeah.
But anyway it's the mostunique state I've ever been to.
It's almost like goingto a foreign country.
Not in a bad way.
It's freaking awesome.

Angela (17:31):
Yeah.
Never been,

John (17:31):
but it's very unique.

Angela (17:33):
Not too much east for me, except for, like I said, when I was one.

John (17:36):
Yeah.

Angela (17:37):
We went for a five generations picture.

John (17:39):
Oh, that's cool.
I was

Angela (17:40):
the fifth generation.

John (17:41):
That's cool.
So anyway, this douchebags from Louisiana.
He was one of six childrenborn into a military family.
His father was in the AirForce, so he moved a lot.
He was described as beingsmart kid, but troubled.
And he joined the army.
How

Angela (17:58):
we all,

John (17:58):
uh, I don't think like this asshole.
I don't think so.
He joined the Army at 18and served from 1970 to 76.
So he served in Korea.
He was honorably dischargedas a specialist, and then
he was after the military.
He was married anddivorced multiple times.

(18:19):
He had at least six wives.
And so, I mean, the guy is, buthe's a piece of shit, a collector.
He's a piece of shit, is what he is.
So kind of his mo is,he winds and dines hims.
He's sweet and caring and all thisshit until he gets a ring on their

(18:39):
finger and then he just beats thepiss out of him on a regular basis.
Oh.
And for, and I'm.

Angela (18:48):
I was gonna

John (18:49):
say for no reason, but I mean, it sounds like there could possibly
be a reason to beat the shit outof your wives, but there's not.
But I mean, it was, thank

Angela (18:59):
you for clearing that up.

John (19:00):
It was so weird.
It's like, the one woman said, you know,he like pulled into the, into the drive
and she was, she like was outside and hejust started beating the shit out of her.
Like, he wasn't necessarily madthat she'd done anything or what.
I mean, it was just like he just camehome and took out his aggressions.

(19:22):
If he had a bad day, he just comebeat the shit out of his wife for it.
I mean, the guy was a totalpiece of shit asserting control.
I it's like these ass hats thatkick their dog when they come home
if they have a bad day, you know,it's just I can't understand it,
but that's the kinda piece of shit.
This guy was

Angela (19:41):
fair warning.
I see you kick a dog.
I'm gonna kick you.

John (19:44):
Just saying, if I see you punch your wife, I'm gonna punch you too.
So yeah, I might not do thatbecause I'll probably get

Angela (19:49):
hit back, but I will kick you if you kick your

John (19:51):
dog.
So he worked odd jobs.
He worked as a tree trimmer,a handyman, a delivery driver.
A florist and

Angela (20:02):
a florist.
Yeah.
Why am I shocked by that?
Yeah,

John (20:06):
and he had a criminal history 1980 for vehicle theft.
He was convicted in Louisiana, whichas it turned out, was the source of the
fingerprints that would be matched bythe El Paso County Sheriff's Office.
So really glad that he gotbusted for stealing a car.

Angela (20:23):
Good job, Louisiana.

John (20:24):
Then he had all kinds of minor offenses, multiple
different thefts, assaults, andhe moved to Colorado in the 1980s.
He'd also lived in California for sure.
He just kind of, I mean, I think we allknow these pieces of shit that just have.
Really no drive, no ambition.
We do no direction in life, and they justkind of float through hurting as many

(20:47):
people along the way as they possibly can.
That was this piece of shit.
And so, but he did, he livedin the black forest area near
the church family by 1991.
His personality is described asbeing quiet, reclusive, manipulative.
And he claimed that hehad some divine ins.

(21:09):
I mean, the guy's a freakingfruit loop, like some divine
inspiration for killing people.
And

Angela (21:14):
of course he did.

John (21:15):
According to him, is that woman

Angela (21:17):
in Canada, God told her to.

John (21:18):
Yeah.
According to him, he has an IQ of one 40.
I couldn't find like wherehe'd actually ever had an IQ
test, so I can't confirm that.
But according to him,he has an IQ of one 40.
So he's

Angela (21:35):
Oh, and we believe him a hundred percent.

John (21:37):
A hundred percent.
He wrote poetry.
He read the Bible obsessively.
What?
Oh, you'll hear some of hisjacked up bullshit poetry later.

Angela (21:46):
Oh, I cannot wait.

John (21:47):
And so he earned himself the moniker, uh, of
the devil's right hand man.
Because is it

Angela (21:56):
like roses are red, violets are blue.
I just come home, I must hit you

John (21:59):
the poem.
Yeah.
Oh no, it's sicker and darker than that.
I just,

Angela (22:03):
I just wrote it off the cuff just now, but yeah,

John (22:06):
it's definitely darker than that.

Angela (22:07):
Okay,

John (22:08):
so,

Angela (22:09):
sorry I derailed your train of thought.

John (22:13):
No, don't

Angela (22:14):
you miss me.

John (22:15):
Just a time to hit my vape.
But you know, he is, it's,
he was.
I'm trying to remember what wewent through in the last episode.
So, you know, like we talked about inthe last episode, he made the mistake,
left the fingerprint, and then that'swhere they got him, um, is off of that.

(22:36):
And then he gave a chillingconfession pretty quick after Lou
Smith started to interrogate him.
And I mean, he initiallydenied it like they all do.
Yeah.
And then they confronted himwith the fingerprint evidence.
Like I said, um, in the previousepisode, you know, they were like,
have you ever been in the house?

(22:58):
No.
Never been there.
Do you know these people?
No.
Don't know at all.
Right.
Then they're like, okay, whyis your fingerprint here?
And then he's like, because I killed her.
Yeah.
I mean, it was kind of like that.
And so.

Angela (23:15):
Sorry, I never turned the sound off my phone, so, oh no,

John (23:17):
you're fine.

Angela (23:18):
Let's do that.

John (23:18):
I'm just hitting my vape.
So according to this piece of shit, andI have a very, very hard time believing
this story, and I think everybody elsewill too, but according to him, he thought

(23:39):
that the church house was empty, and sohe broke in there to burglarize it, and
Heather saw and confronted him, and so hegrabbed her, hit her in the head, and then

(24:00):
strangled her, broke her neck, whatever.
There's differing accountsof exactly what he said.
But he, he claimed that she was deadbefore they ever left the house, and
he only killed her to silence her.
There was no sexual assault,there was minimal struggle.
And, you know, I have a veryhard time believing that.

(24:22):
Yeah.
First of all, I have a hard timebelieving that he entered the house
thinking that it was unoccupied.
I have even a harder time believing thatthis little 13-year-old girl confronted
this freaking monster and, you know,didn't just run and hide somewhere.
And I find it nearly impossibleto believe that the killing

(24:47):
happened the way that it did.
Mm-hmm.
And one of the main reasons is if youbreak into a house and the homeowner
confronts you because you're only thereto burglarize it, and you never intended
to hurt anybody, why take the body?
It makes no sense.
And I don't think I've ever heard ofa case where it happened, honestly.

(25:09):
I don't think I've ever heard of acase where somebody is missing from
their home and it comes out thatit was just a robbery gone wrong.

Angela (25:18):
Yeah.

John (25:19):
The robbery gone wrong.
Stories.
Or when people come home andfind somebody dead in the house.

Angela (25:24):
Yeah.

John (25:24):
There's no reason to take the body.
It's not like you can say, well,if I take the body, nobody's gonna
miss her for, it's a little girl.
Her mom's coming home.

Angela (25:35):
Yeah.
Somebody's gonna miss

John (25:36):
her tonight.

Angela (25:36):
There's another child in the house.

John (25:39):
Right?

Angela (25:39):
Yeah.

John (25:40):
And you know, it just doesn't make any sense.
I think he was the sixth sonof a bitch that took this poor
little girl to do bad things.

Angela (25:50):
And a lot of the times, if you're there for a robbery and
you're confronted, if that's allthat you're there for, you run away.

John (25:57):
Right.
Yeah.

Angela (26:00):
I mean sometimes,

John (26:01):
but you know, there are robberies gone wrong.

Angela (26:04):
Yeah.

John (26:04):
But I've never heard of one where they take the
body, drive it 40 miles away.

Angela (26:09):
Yeah.
And dump

John (26:10):
it.
I have heard of a lot of like kidnappingand rapes and stuff that in that way,
but I don't buy his bullshit story, butI don't buy most of what this guy says.
Anyway, he said that, you know, heaccidentally killed her essentially,
and then took her out the sliding patiodoor, loaded her in the vehicle, drove

(26:33):
her like 30, 40 miles out to RampartRange Road and dumped her in the forest.
So

Angela (26:40):
did the little brother see any of this?
Was he like five?

John (26:44):
Yeah, he was five at the time.
But no, he was tucked into his crib.

Angela (26:49):
A crib at five.

John (26:51):
Well, a bad crib.
I don't know.
He specifically, you make a good point.
He's a little bit old for.
For a crib he was five.
Right.

Angela (27:00):
I feel like,

John (27:02):
I think so.
Anyway.
No, there's no indicationthat he saw any of it.
And, you know, just a reminder,he had gotten vaccinations that
day, so he was running a fever.
He was probably sick and sleepy.
And so it doesn't surpriseme if he didn't hear Yeah.
Or see anything, you know, but,

Angela (27:30):
sorry, did I trigger you?

John (27:32):
No, I'm just thinking.
So, you know, I mean we've, we've reallydiscussed a lot about, you know, Lou
Smit, his entire role in the case, howhe came to determine that this piece of
shit was the guilty one and everything.
And so once.
Once Brown confessed then heentered a plea deal because he

(27:57):
wanted to avoid the death penalty.
And so he entered a plea deal wherehe would plead guilty to it and give a
confession, and then he would get lifein prison and not the death penalty.
So that was the plea deal.
I don't think it was a bad one, youknow, you know, my opinion on plea

(28:18):
deals, but, you know, if you have aplea deal where it's like either kill
the son of a bitch or he spends life inprison without parole, I don't have near
a problem with that plea deal as I dowith either life in prison or 15 years.

Angela (28:35):
Mm-hmm.

John (28:36):
Which some of those are so absurd that

Angela (28:39):
you're like, or immunity.

John (28:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, he got the plea deal and I,I. From what I understand, the family was,
they were included in the negotiationswith the plea deal and everything,
and they were pretty devout LDS andnot proponents of the death penalty.
Right.
And so I think they were muchon board with the plea deal.

(29:01):
He could spend life in prison.
He couldn't hurt anybody else, andthen they didn't have, you know,
they didn't have to deal withthe death penalty thing either.
Yeah.
Because, you know, we, it'll be

Angela (29:10):
on their conscience forever.
Yeah.
We, we forget

John (29:13):
that, you know, I mean, not every family of a murdered
victim wants their killer dead.
Pretty much every one of 'em wantsthem locked up for the rest of
their life, so they can't ever putanother family through that misery.

Angela (29:25):
Mm-hmm.

John (29:25):
But they don't all want them to die.
So, and I think that was thecase with the church family.
They were content with this plea deal.
I have no personal problemwith it whatsoever.
And so

Angela (29:38):
I don't know what I would choose faced with it.
I mean, I could, I could think aboutit, but I. I don't know what I would
choose until I was faced with it.
Like

John (29:48):
death penalty or, yeah.
I, you know, I don't think that you canput yourself in the situation mm-hmm.
Like with so many things youthink, you know, but Exactly.
Um, I can say for myself, I feel prettyconfident that my reaction to somebody
murdering my daughter would be, I wantto administer the death penalty my way.

(30:12):
And short of, short of being able to dothat, and I have heard fathers actually
request the judge just give me 15minutes alone with this son of a bitch.
Yeah.
I would be that father guarantee it.
And if I couldn't have thatwish, I'd want him dead.
I just know myself enough, I wouldprefer to do it myself, but if you're

(30:36):
not gonna let me, then you better do it.
And if this son of a bitchever hits the street.
I'm going to do it.
Yeah.
And if that means I spend the rest ofmy life in prison for it, so be it.
I'm ready to go.
But if this bastard getson the street, he's out.
That would be mine.
I'm pretty positive of that.

Angela (30:57):
My dad was that father, and the police actually said we should
just put him in a room with him.

John (31:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think there, there maybe shouldbe a few, a little bit more of that.
Yeah.
You know,
but so he worked out this plea dealand then he got his life in prison
and so he was sent to prison and hepretty much stayed completely quiet

(31:28):
for five years until March of 2000.
And
there was he.
In March of 2000, he sentthis weird ass letter, and I'm
gonna go ahead and read it.

(31:48):
This is where you get to hear hisbrilliant poetry from his 140 iq.
Okay?
All

Angela (31:57):
right.

John (31:59):
In the murky placid depths, beneath the Cool Caressing Meyer lies seven
sacred virgins in tombs side by side.
The those less worthy are scattered wide.
The score is U one, the other team 48.

(32:21):
So when investigators got this, what theyfigured was either one of two things.
Obviously the ending of theletter says the score is you one.
The other team.
48. Well the one is Heather Don Church.

Angela (32:38):
Yeah.
They found one,

John (32:39):
he's been convicted of that one.
The other team, 48 either meanshe's killed a total of 49,
including Heather Don Church, or
where was I going with that?

Angela (32:57):
There's 48 more they don't know about at all.

John (33:02):
Yeah, I mean he gives like these different numbers, right?
So he gives seven sacred versionsand then he says those less
worthy are scattered wide.
So when I read that letter, Idon't know if it would be 48 plus
eight, the seven Sacred Virginsand Heather, and then plus Heather.

(33:24):
And then So that would be what?
56,

Angela (33:26):
48 were less worthy?

John (33:29):
Yeah.
Or if that means that the seven.
Sacred virgins were, are included in the48, which would make the total number 49.
So

Angela (33:41):
might be giving him a little bit too much credit

John (33:44):
as far as what, being

Angela (33:45):
smart enough to put that together.

John (33:48):
Yeah.
I mean, who the hell knows though,with these freaking lunatics?

Angela (33:52):
That's true.
That's true.

John (33:54):
So the general thought process from like the FBI and the investigators
and stuff in, in dealing with thisnutcases cryptic ass poetry is it's
indicating between 40 and 49 victims.
And the thought is that seven ofthem that were worthy, he buried

(34:20):
somewhere and that others werejust tossed out like Heather was.

Angela (34:26):
Yeah.

John (34:27):
And, but

Angela (34:27):
Heather should have been worthy.

John (34:30):
I have no idea what, what this dumb piece of shit
considers worthy, worthy or not.
You know, I mean, when you're dealingwith these sick bastards, like this,
being worthy could mean something likewhen I was torturing her, she scream
the right way or did the right, youknow, responded in the right way.

(34:53):
I mean, we don't have aclue what worthy means.
It's their brains are completely broken.
So trying to figure out whattheir dumb shit poetry means,
it's like Israel keys is bullshit.
Nonsense.

Angela (35:05):
Yeah.

John (35:05):
It makes no freaking sense and trying to understand it.
You gotta be a lunatic

Angela (35:10):
or you will be once you,

John (35:12):
and the hard part is every lunatic speaks their own language.
So it's not like we can even take itto a lunatic and say, Hey, decipher
this bullshit for me, becauseevery one of 'em speaks their own
twisted, sick freaking language.
Can

Angela (35:25):
you imagine that Job FBI lunatic, deciphering.

John (35:28):
It's John Douglas's job.
He is retired, but thatwas his freaking job.

Angela (35:34):
Wow.

John (35:35):
I mean, there's

Angela (35:35):
not a secret decoder ring for that.

John (35:37):
Not really.
But I do think that John Douglas wasonto something and I mean, they did kind
of start to understand how these peoplethink, but they also came to realize
that each one of them has their ownlittle weird ass bullshit that Yeah.
The

Angela (35:53):
signature,

John (35:54):
yeah.
Yeah.
So, I don't know.
It's weird.
This poem thing is, it's so cryptic, it'shard to understand what it even means.
And so, but we do know that sothat was sent in 2000 and they
started to investigate it and hewrote additional letters like.

(36:22):
They're detailed in a book that'scalled Hello Charlie Letters from
a Serial Killer that a guy bythe name of Charlie Hess wrote.
He was a retired F-B-I-C-I-A agent.

Angela (36:31):
You saw that look on my face, didn't you?

John (36:33):
Yeah.
Like he was like, who's Charlie?
Yeah.
So he wrote a book about this.
He was a retired F-D-I-C-I-A agentand worked with the El Paso County
Sheriff's Office cold case team,which they called the Apple Dumpling
gang, which I think is kind of cool.
'cause that was such a greatfreaking movie back in the day.
Have you seen it?

Angela (36:52):
Yeah, it is been forever.
Oh, it's

John (36:55):
such a good movie's.
Tim Conley.
Tim Conley and, uh, oh,what the hell's his name?
Don Knot.
Oh, oh,

Angela (37:05):
Don Knots.

John (37:06):
Yeah.
They were so freaking hilarious.
Great, great freaking movie.
That was back when Disneymade really great moves.
I'm pretty sure that's at Disney

Angela (37:14):
back when John liked Disney.

John (37:15):
But, um, anyway, so Hess wrote this book where he kind of detailed
this and brown detailed between 48 and49 murders from 1970 to 1995, covering
nine states, being Colorado, Louisiana,Texas, Arkansas, California, Washington,

(37:38):
New Mexico, Mississippi, and Oklahoma.
He provided maps, sketches, victimdescriptions, the methods that he
used to kill him, and it did leadto at least one verified exhumation,
but m most were left unconfirmed.

(37:59):
And then in 2006, he pleaded guiltyto the murder of Rossio Sperry.
1987 in Colorado and received a secondlife sentence, no further charges.
And that was, that was itas far as his convictions.

(38:20):
So they were never able to necessarilyfind any other victims or Rossio.
Sperry was 15 and was abducted fromColorado Springs, king Supers, she was
strangled and her body left in a bathtub.
And then, like I said,he confessed to that.

(38:43):
And so,

Angela (38:44):
whose bathtub?

John (38:46):
I don't know.
I didn't really dig intoher case all that much.
But

Angela (38:55):
I'm not sure why my, my brain's always like, who's bathtub?
But I think it, it wants to know

John (39:01):
these things.
I think it was a motel room, if I remember

Angela (39:05):
right.

John (39:05):
That makes sense.
But don't quote me on that, but no, I

Angela (39:09):
fully intend to quote you.

John (39:10):
You know, he claimed that of his nearly 50 victims that included both
men and women aged between 15 and 35.
He's guessing most werevulnerable people like hitchhiker.
Yeah.
Bar patrons, you know.
And he said that he strangled them.
He stabbed them, used an icepick a screwdriver, some he

(39:34):
shot some, he used blunt force.
He dumped the bodies inremote areas, rivers.
And then he spoke and withenough ity about Rossio Sperry
that they could link that case.
But he also said that he killed Fayeself, who was 26, who was a Louisiana

(39:56):
bar patron, killed her in 1983,strangled her, left her body in a river.
Wanda Faye Hudson, who washis cousin-in-law he killed
in Louisiana in the 1980s.
She'd never be

Angela (40:08):
missed,

John (40:08):
correct.
He stabbed her.
Catherine Jean Hayes, who is, who wasknown as the Grand Am lady, killed her
in Texas in 91 and dismembered her.
Oh.
And then there's some unverifiedexamples like the one that he referred
to as the Asian bride who he saidthat he killed when he was in the
military in Korea and strangled her.

(40:32):
After raping her.
He also said that he killed ahitchhiker in Arkansas, who he
shot a woman in Mississippi, whohe strangled the flat tire lady in
Oklahoma in 1984, who he stabbed.
And so he claimed that his first killwas the 1997 bar patron in Louisiana.
And then after his arrestand all this kinda shit.

(40:57):
He boasted that none ever got away.
He killed every one of 'em that hedecided to, and that he had some
kind of divine inspiration forthe shit and was doing God's work.
So, I mean,

Angela (41:13):
because God wants people to kill people, I'm sure,

John (41:17):
right?
Yeah.
I mean, the guy, I

Angela (41:18):
hate that answer.

John (41:20):
I do too.
But you know, the, he then recantedand said that he made it all up.
I mean, he's like so many of thesepieces of shit, and you could tell from
that cryptic freaking weird ass poem,whatever you want, call that nonsense.

(41:41):
This is a game to him.
You don't send a, a letterlike that because you know,
you all of a sudden cut Jesus.
And now you wanna get rightwith the Lord before you die.
This isn't.
I want to do the right thing Now.
It wouldn't be cry

Angela (41:56):
if it was, it's a,

John (41:57):
this is a game.
Yeah.
He's, he's set in prison for five years.
He's gotten bored and he needssomething to pacify his time.
So why not toy with investigators?
Well,

Angela (42:08):
and they might not be paying him enough attention now and well, exactly.
He wants the attention.
Wow.

John (42:16):
Well, and with so many of these people.
All right.

Angela (42:19):
Yeah.
It just popped again,

John (42:21):
you know, with so many of these people, once they're caught, he's doing
life in prison, then why not be famous?
Yeah.

Angela (42:31):
While

John (42:31):
you're doing life in prison, be a famous serial killer.
Some of these desire thatfame right from the start.
So disgusting.
They know they're gonna get caught.
They're almost excitedfor it because Yeah.
Here

Angela (42:46):
comes the fame, the book deals, the movies.

John (42:49):
Exactly.
And, you know, um.
It's a little bit like, I know I use alot of movie references, but a lot of the
shit that is in movies, there's a kernelof the truth to, and it's kind of like
Kevin Spacey's character in that movie.

Angela (43:05):
That movie.
It's

John (43:06):
kind of like Kevin Spacey's character in seven where oh, oh, he
wanted to complete his work, what's

Angela (43:13):
in the box?

John (43:14):
And then once his work was completed mm-hmm.
He needed to let themall know about his work.
Well, and he was final, hisfinal act was to get Brad Pitt to
shoot him, which I would've done.

Angela (43:26):
I'm just gonna say I hated how that movie ended.
'cause to me it was like the rider wason a good streak and then all of a sudden
somebody popped their head in the room andsaid, you have 10 minutes to finish this.
And he just finished it.
I was annoyed.
I'll watch it.
You would've had to have had a

John (43:43):
whole part two to go much further into that movie though.
Mm-hmm.
But you know, it's, I itcan be a lot like that.
Like their work is completed andnow they want the whole world to see
this great thing that they've done

Angela (43:55):
and they wanna be part of the tableau.

John (43:57):
Right?
Yeah.
Or it can just be absolutebullshit, you know?
Like, uh, what's his name?
Damnit, I don't remember.
I can't think of it.
But he was this moron in Texasthat once he got busted, he
freaking confessed to everythinghe confessed to like 150 murders.

(44:20):
Every time a detective would comein, they, he would be like yep.
And he was really good.
He was almost like a palm readeror a fortune teller or whatever at,
like, could really read and just get.
The details from the investigators,

Angela (44:36):
huh?

John (44:36):
So that he could make them believe that he actually, he, Henry Lee Lucas,
and he could make 'em believe thathe really was the guy that did it.
And so this went on, there weredetectives coming to Texas from all over
the United States to talk to this guythinking that they'd solved these cases.
And then one pretty sharp detectivewent over there and she was like, okay.

(45:02):
And so she took his confession andall this, and then she tested him and
was like, okay, he's full of shit.

Angela (45:09):
Mm. Okay.
Because she had

John (45:09):
hold back information that only the killer would know, and he didn't know it.
And then other detectives startedcoming back and doing the same tactic.
And it turns out we don't evenknow if he killed any more
than what he was convicted of.
Mm-hmm.
We know for a fact that helied about almost all of 'em.
Well, all the ones he confessedto, he lied about because none of

(45:31):
them were ever proven to be true.
What makes a guy do something like that?
I don't know.
But I do think that it is a detention.
Well, I think it is a little bitof you're standing in prison.
Because once you're there, then ifyou're like this famous serial killer,
either one of two things is gonna happen.
Either one, you're gonna get a target onyour back, like is happening with Coberg

(45:53):
right now and happened with Dahmer.

Angela (45:55):
No sad,

John (45:56):
or sorry, you're gonna be feared and respected like
happened with Charlie Manson.
Yeah.
And Ed Kemper.

Angela (46:03):
That's disgusting.
You

John (46:04):
know?
And so, well, I mean, I imaginethat Ed Kemper standing six foot
nine probably had a lot to do withhis respect in prison as well.
Okay, fine.
But Charlie Manson was like five foot two.

Angela (46:17):
Yeah.

John (46:18):
But he was, he was nothing.
He was feared because he wasabsolutely out of his freaking Gord.
Yes he was.
But whatever his motivation,I don't think he was ever

Angela (46:27):
in it.

John (46:27):
Oh no.
He was a nut bar from the beginning.
I mean his life story.
I don't know how you could gothrough what he went, I'm not
making excuses for the lunatic.
Yeah.
But you don't come through a childhoodlike he had in any way Normal.
But I don't know what the motivation is.
We'll never ever know themotivation for Brown, why he

(46:48):
confessed and all this kind shit.
I personally think thathe's telling the truth.
Is he telling all of them?
I don't know.
Is he padding the numbers?
Mm-hmm.
Could there be more?
Yeah, I think there could easily be more.
He more's fluffing it.

Angela (47:06):
Yeah.

John (47:06):
But could there also be significantly less?
Yeah.
It, there could be significantly less.
We don't know.
And so, you know, it's oneof those, it's a tough case.
Kind of like Sam Little who, Imean we know that, that Sam little
likely killed as many as like 130.

(47:28):
That's very probable.
And he drew pictures of 'emand told all the details that
he could possibly remember.
But the problem is, unless you canmatch the body to the, to the crime and
have some kind of evidence to link itto them, it's leaves it unconfirmed.
And when you're talking about from1970 in Brown's case to 1995, trying

(47:54):
to go back to 1970, find a body.
Yeah.
Match it up.
It, it becomes almost impossible to do.
Yeah.
And so we just don't know, but we knowthe guy's a killer and we know the guy
definitely killed at least two because heconfessed and was sentenced for two, but.

(48:16):
Like his ex-wives are positive thatthis piece of shit was killing people
in Louisiana before he left there.
And I mean, he is an absolute animal.
So

Angela (48:27):
do they know from like looking back or do they know from experience
and can they get in any trouble fromknowing these things and sitting back?
I mean, I realized theywere being abused, but,

John (48:38):
well, the, we'll address the second part of your question.
First, could they be in any trouble?
And the answer is likely not.
I mean, if they had specificdetails or were involved in
some way in the murders, yes.
But in this particular, yeah.
Or aiding and abetting after the fact or,

Angela (48:59):
no,

John (48:59):
but that wasn't the case at all with that.
When I say that they knew he did.
I don't mean that they actuallyhad evidence that he did.
They didn't see it happen.
He was just such a freaking abusive.
Evil lunatic to be married to.
Okay.
That they were certain that he was

Angela (49:18):
gotcha.

John (49:18):
Out hurting other people, you know?
I mean, he would, like a couple of hiswives, he strangled unconscious, you know?
I mean, he was so violent.
The one said that, the one that I saidjust grabbed her and beat her just
because she said that she was bruisedhead to toe after that beating, like he

(49:39):
got her on the ground and was kickingher and I mean, just extraordinarily
violent assaults on his wives.
And so you go through somethinglike that and then you, then they
say, well, he killed somebody.
And they're like, oh, I'msure he killed people.
Gotcha.
I'm sure he killed a lot of people.
Yeah.
And so it wasn't necessarily, at least inthis case, it wasn't necessarily that they

(50:03):
actually knew for a fact that he did, but

Angela (50:06):
okay.
I'm on the same page now.

John (50:08):
Thank you.
Yeah.
So.
Then the next thing thatwe need to talk about
is
another piece of shit who is outthere, hopefully listening to this lack

Angela (50:29):
of those,

John (50:29):
hopefully listening to this podcast.
And if you are, come findme, you son of a bitch.
Because I got, I got abone to pick with you.
So the Colorado death penalty wasenacted in 1974 after Furman versus
Georgia, which, I mean, there's a lotof nonsense with the death penalty.

(50:53):
And maybe you don't know, maybeyou do know, but the Supreme Court
made the death penalty illegal, uh,everywhere in 72 and then I think in 74.
That decision got reversed.
And if I'm off on my dates, Iapologize, I didn't research this.
It's a polling from memory, but, um, theydid make it illegal and then reversed it.

(51:18):
Mm-hmm.
That's why people like CharlieManson weren't executed because
he was sentenced to death pre 72.
Gotcha.
And then once they reversedit, so they made it illegal.
So all of those death penalty casesin the entire nation were converted
to life sentences or lesser sentences.
Most of them became life, but thenwhen they changed it back, they

(51:41):
didn't go back and say, okay, nowwe're gonna go ahead and kill you.

Angela (51:44):
Mm-hmm.

John (51:45):
They just left them and grandfathered.
I'm pretty, well, I'm pretty sure thatthe Supreme Court ruled in that case
that they couldn't then go back andkill the ones that they, and I damn

Angela (51:55):
it,

John (51:56):
I mean, I don't agree.
I, I kind of agree with that.
Part of it.
Mm-hmm.
Just from the humanity aspect.
Like I was being

Angela (52:04):
facetious, we're gonna kill

John (52:05):
you.
We're not gonna kill you.
We're gonna kill you.
We're not gonna kill you.
I have a problem with that right now,with the way we handled the death penalty,

Angela (52:11):
you know, I kind of would like them to live in that constant state
of, I have no idea, because that'sthe torture that they were inflicting.
So

John (52:20):
this is true, but for me it's very clear cut.
If you're gonna have the deathpenalty, then execute it and use it.
And if you're not, then don't.
But this nonsense.
So make it

Angela (52:33):
sadistic of me that I'm like, oh, we could kill you today.
Maybe not this nonsense,maybe tomorrow of,

John (52:40):
of like sentencing somebody to death and then they live for

Angela (52:45):
72 more years.

John (52:47):
Right?
Yeah.
I mean, we just had the caseit was a couple weeks ago in
one of the southern states.
I can't remember, but.
You know, the guy fought and foughtexecution because he had a pacemaker and
they didn't know how the drugs were gonnaaffect the pacemaker and all this shit.
And now his le, his lawyer, his legalteam is getting the pacemaker records

(53:08):
to analyze whether it affected, but

Angela (53:12):
what does it matter affected him if he was death penalty?
Well, I could

John (53:15):
give two shits, but my point is he didn't have a pacemaker when he was
sentenced in, I believe it was like 1980.
It was definitely in the eighties.
He didn't have a pacemaker whenhe was sentenced to death then.
So if they'd have killed the sonof a bitch when they should have,
instead of waiting 40 years mm-hmm.
To do it, we wouldn't havethis discussion about, yeah.
Do I think that it's cruel andunusual to execute somebody that

(53:39):
is a feeble 80-year-old man?
Yeah, I could, I could say I, I don'treally like that, like, kill the bastards
when they're young and spray and, mm-hmm.
25 and just got done.
Doing their shit.

Angela (53:53):
Well, you know, the tax paper payers paid for that
pacemaker and I want it back.

John (53:57):
Yeah.
Well, it costs so much to house thesepeople for 40 years to end it with
an execution is dumb as shit to me.
If you're gonna executepeople, execute 'em, just

Angela (54:09):
Yeah.

John (54:10):
If you're not, don't.

Angela (54:11):
However, like we've said, make sure they really deserve it.

John (54:15):
Absolutely.
And I believe that they deserve theirappeals and everything, and I am
not a huge death penalty advocate.
Like I don't No, I

Angela (54:23):
realize I just sounded like I am and I'm, I'm not
unless it's warranted, but

John (54:28):
I don't come down.
Like if, if we just did away with thedeath penalty, I wouldn't necessarily
agree with it, but I wouldn'tnecessarily have a huge problem with
it either because the way that Colorado

Angela (54:39):
would have to build 15 more prisons.

John (54:42):
Well, there we, well my, the issue is we kill so few.
That's true.
I mean, what maybe what, 10, 12?
15 probably.
I can't imagine thatwe kill more than quite

Angela (54:53):
a few recently.
I can't

John (54:55):
imagine we kill more than 20 a year in the United States.

Angela (54:58):
Yeah,

John (54:59):
definitely.
I don't think we kill a hundred.
It has no impact whatsoeveron the prison system.
And they're already housed for 20,30, 40 years before their execution.
So to me it's just pointless.
It's

Angela (55:14):
pointless.
Can we just send them to where theydo the Naked and Afraid episodes
and just leave them there and I

John (55:20):
don't care,

Angela (55:22):
just let 'em fend for themselves with the anacondas and the wild boars and

John (55:27):
Yeah.
I don't care about, that's how I feel,care what they do with them, but, and we

Angela (55:29):
save our taxes to, you know, fix roads and shit.
Yeah, let's do that.

John (55:33):
But, so anyway, we have this situation where

Angela (55:38):
John's trying to keep me on track

John (55:41):
and I'll, I'll try to explain this the best that I can, but.
So the death penalty was enacted in1974 after Furman versus Georgia,
and, but it was rarely used.
There was in, this is in Coloradoone execution between 1967 and 1997,

(56:03):
a guy by the name of Gary Lee Davis.
And then the death penalty was abolishedin Colorado completely by Governor Jared
Polis, who I'm not a fan of in 2020.
So there is no death penalty inColorado currently, but the statute, the
Colorado statute, required prosecutorsto file death penalty notice within

(56:28):
63 to 90 days post arraignment.
And if that was missed, it barredthem from ever being able to seek
it later, even for new crimes.
One of the most dumb ass freakingstatutes I've ever heard of in my life.
Who would do that shit,but Colorado, totally.
That

Angela (56:48):
guy

John (56:48):
Colorado did it.
Well, it was Coloradolegislatures that did it.
So the DA didn't file for Heather in95 because they had this plea deal.
And so he went with the lifesentence without parole.

(57:08):
And then because of that, then whenthis piece of shit was then later
convicted of Rossio Sperry's murder,he wasn't eligible for the death
penalty, but he was sentenced to death.
And then the son of a bitch who iswelcome in my office right now to

(57:29):
have a conversation with me is theanonymous piece of shit asshole that
wrote an anonymous letter to Brownexplaining this loophole in Colorado law.
Which then brown exploited toget out of the death penalty.
And let me tell you what, if you'rea son of a bitch that is so in

(57:52):
love with a almost certain serialkiller, but I don't even give a shit
if he never killed anybody else.
If you're so in love with a piece ofshit that killed a 13-year-old girl,

Angela (58:02):
oh shit,

John (58:03):
you need to be in there with him.
I'd strap both your asses in theelectric chair side by side and pull
the switch on both of you together.
This pissed me off so freakingmuch if you couldn't tell.
I couldn't that.
Thank you for explaining.
Some asshole would do this andnot even put his name on it.
Come on, grow a pair.

(58:23):
If you're going to take sideswith a freaking serial killer, at
least sign your name at the bottomso you can live with the kinda
shit that you have coming to you.
It's true, but no, he didn't.
And so we don't know who sent theletter it, it was never figured out.
But we know that it wassent and we know that the.
Robert, Charles Brown wasable to wiggle his way out.

(58:46):
And so

Angela (58:48):
I have a feeling you're sooner to meet Moth Man than this guy.

John (58:52):
You're probably right.
Yeah.
So, but anyway, it is a little bit of a, a
quirky part of this case, you know, andso, but it really leaves us, you know,

(59:13):
it leaves me anyway, really scratchingmy head, and we've talked about
this on multiple different episodes.
I'm sure that we're gonna continue totalk about it because it's something
that I really, personally struggle with.
And that is, you know, Lou Smit,obviously he's dead now, but he
did a fantastic job on this case.

(59:34):
John Anderson, man, I have.
Oodles of respect for both of thoseguys and what they did, literally
changing their lives to solve one case.
Yeah.
I mean, these guys really deserveall the accommodations in the
world that they could get.
But and so I don't believe that it'stheir responsibility, and I don't

(59:56):
believe that John Anderson as sheriffcan responsibly take his taxpayer's
money and investigate 50 crimesscattered across the United States
where he doesn't even have jurisdiction

Angela (01:00:11):
or know if they truly exist.

John (01:00:13):
Right.
And in these other states, ifthey, I don't know that they
have a, the same obligation.
I, I really struggle with this because,you know, they have limited budgets.
And as taxpayers, I also don't wantthe government taking more of my money.

Angela (01:00:34):
Yeah.

John (01:00:34):
You know, and so, but I don't know what the answer is to this, but
the fact that we have maybe as many as50 victims and we've only solved two,
we've only given closure if there issuch a thing to two of those families.
It's something I struggle with.
It's something I struggle with inall of these cases, and I don't

(01:00:57):
know where that responsibility lies.
You know, I do know that we have a lotof FBI agents that are doing bullshit
nonsense in Washington dc, which a lotof 'em are getting ran out and put back
up where they belong solving crimes.
But a lot of 'em inWashington DC I know that.

(01:01:20):
We had all kinds of new IRS agentshired and all, so I, my point is
I think the money's already there.

Angela (01:01:28):
Mm-hmm.

John (01:01:29):
It's being

Angela (01:01:29):
allocated for bullshit.

John (01:01:31):
Yeah.
To, and I realize also that currentlymurder is not a federal crime and I
don't want it to be, I don't want theFBI getting more jurisdiction, but why
couldn't there be a, an FBI team or somekind of a federal team that takes these
cases that nobody else is going to work?
Yeah.

(01:01:51):
Because they can't afford to, andtheir job is solely to try to solve
these cases linked, potentiallylinked to these serial killers.
You know, cold case units have theirplace and that needs to stay local.
And they, if they want FBI help, thenthey can call in and ask for help.
But you have a case like this andit's not the only one we've got.

(01:02:15):
I mean Israel Keys, butthat is handled by the FBI.
But there's so many of these cases, Imean, we talked about we've, we have,
we did the serial killer episode onRocky Mountain Reckoning and almost
every one of those, as soon as we gotdone talking about their known victims,
then we went into this whole long listof potential and suspected victims.

(01:02:36):
Yeah, nobody's working those cases.
Nobody's getting those families answers.
And they kind of fall into this black holeof we're pretty sure we got the guy, so
we're not gonna investigate it anymore.
But the family can never hangtheir hat on that, you know?
So I don't know what the answer is, like Isaid, and I do not believe that it falls.

(01:03:00):
On local law enforcement to do it.
I don't think it can.
They don't have the manpower.
They don't have the budget.
It just can't be their job.
Yeah.
And in most of those cases,they don't have the jurisdiction
because it's outside of their cityor their county or their state.
But I think somebody needs to do it

Angela (01:03:17):
well, a small goal of ours is to help people do it.

John (01:03:21):
Right.

Angela (01:03:22):
So

John (01:03:22):
yeah.

Angela (01:03:23):
Hopefully it grows to a bigger goal, but it is one of our
goals as far as I am concerned, andI'm pretty sure you agree with me

John (01:03:33):
100%.
And because nobody else is doing it.
Yeah.
It falls on us True crime advocates.
It falls on a web sleuth, it falls onus investigating these crimes from home.
In order to do that, I think that.

(01:03:54):
The, I think a, a great solution, andwe've talked about this before, is
for these states to pass laws thatgive access to information to vetted,

Angela (01:04:09):
yeah.

John (01:04:09):
Investigators

Angela (01:04:10):
keyword vetted.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.

John (01:04:12):
You, I think you should have to go through some sort of a vetting
process, you know, and I said before,if I gotta go get my fingerprints
taken, get a background check done, dowhatever, and that opens the door to like
the backside of NamUs, you know, the,

Angela (01:04:27):
yeah.
And

John (01:04:27):
the other information that is reserved only for
law enforcement then do that.
But just leaving themhanging is not an answer.
No.
There's a better way to do this.
There's definitely a better way to do this
'Angela: cause it could happen to you and you don't wanna be one

(01:04:49):
waiting 50 years for answers.
And I mean, even if it's not me, I don't want

Angela (01:04:54):
Well, I meant you as in the you general.
You not you, John, the general you

John (01:04:58):
Yeah.
And I mean, just thehuman part of you alone.
That's what I meant.
Should demand answers for strangers.
You, I mean, should demandanswers for everybody.
And it just kind of goes back

Angela (01:05:12):
to that golden rule like doing to others.
Yeah.
You would want somebody helping you.
Yeah.
So if you can help somebody, help 'em.

John (01:05:19):
Absolutely.
You know, and it, I mean, it goesback to something that in a lot of
places we've lost in this country.
And I will say that in the truecrime community, it's the one place
where it still is alive and thriving.

Angela (01:05:35):
Yeah.

John (01:05:36):
And that is, which

Angela (01:05:37):
is an odd thing to say it is the true crime community is chivalrous,

John (01:05:42):
but it's, it's one of the few places.
I mean, it used to bethat, you know, if a man.
You know, was a murder or somethinglike that, running on the loose.
The towns people got theirguns and went out and would go

Angela (01:05:56):
lynch
'John: em.
Well at least protect the town.
Yeah.
You

John (01:05:59):
know, when Charles Starkweather was on his murderous spree, the people all
across Nebraska and the southern part ofWyoming, they literally were on the roofs
of buildings with their guns protectingthe town in case this animal drove into
town and they were gonna take him out.
That you talk about the Dalton Gang,which we're going way back, but when the

(01:06:20):
Dalton gang went in to Rob that bank inMissouri, I can't remember the name of the
town, the townspeople were ready for himand they put an end to the Dalton Gang.

Angela (01:06:30):
There needs to be a little bit more of that, I think.

John (01:06:33):
Well, but this is where I'm, this is where I'm going, is this is in
the True Crime community is one of thefew places in society where this still
exists, where we as a group, collectivelythe true crime family listeners.
Creators.
All of us.
Yeah.
All of us working together.
We're one of the few groups thatare like, I don't have a clue.

(01:06:55):
Yeah.
Who Star Valley, Jane Doe is killed in1972, but by God, I want to find out.

Angela (01:07:02):
Yeah.

John (01:07:02):
And you know, we're the

Angela (01:07:04):
online neighborhood watch we

John (01:07:05):
do this, but there's thousands of us out there.
Everybody's kind of doing theirpart, which it's just, it's a
really neat thing to be a part ofand they make a huge difference.
These online sl, the responsibleones, which we've discussed.
But yeah, those that actresponsibly have done so much good

(01:07:30):
for families, for the victims.
I mean, there has been multiplecases solved by podcasters.

Angela (01:07:38):
Mm-hmm.
And

John (01:07:39):
by crowdsourcing justice and you know, I mean, Sheila Wise Hockey.
She was, oh yeah, we love her.
She was pretty much responsiblefor solving the, the murder
of her, of her roommate.
You know, it's just, there'sbeen so many, so much of it.
And I think that it's absolutely awesome.

(01:08:00):
But it's one of the few places thatexists and that's why, you know, like
the Dark dialogue, collective darkdialogue, adopt a victim program,
it's all geared towards that.
Yeah.
It's all geared to capturing thatand just kind of wholesaling it
into one place where informationcan be shared amongst people.
A lot of that happens on Reddit too.

Angela (01:08:21):
Yeah.

John (01:08:22):
You know, but it's just, um, I think that, I think the community's out there.
I think that we have enoughpeople that are willing to do it.
We need the government toget the hell out of our way.
Yeah.

Angela (01:08:37):
And it's a really easy way to be part of something
special and make a difference.

John (01:08:42):
It is.
And you know, if, you know, for all thetrue crime junkies, which probably most
listeners of us are I think every truecrime gun junkie feels the same way.
Mm-hmm.
Every one of 'em I've ever met does.
Yeah.
And that is one, if I could solveone case, if I could help one family,

(01:09:03):
then I'm, I would do anything.
I've done my job.
Yeah.
I would do, I would do anything tojust have one that I helped, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And so I know that we've talked aboutthat many times, and I'm not specific.
I would like to, I'm, youknow, I'll take any of it.
Find one missing person, identifyone identified person, or put

(01:09:25):
one piece of shit in prison.
Like I'll take any of it.
Yeah.
Any, all of it's a win.
I'm not picky.

Angela (01:09:32):
It truly is.
It truly is.
You know, I, I want names for JaneDoe 'cause that just breaks my heart.
I know it just breaks my heart.
It just drives me nuts thatsome of them aren't even Jane
doe's, they're just numbers.
And that's,

John (01:09:45):
that

Angela (01:09:45):
is not

John (01:09:46):
thousands.

Angela (01:09:46):
That is not what any of us humans are meant to be.

John (01:09:50):
Yep.
I mean, when you dive into NamUs,the so many of 'em are just known
by their NAUS number, which isalways a up for unidentified person.
Yeah.
So, it's MP and up, uh, NamUs, butit's like MP or up 74 62 or that's it.

Angela (01:10:10):
And

John (01:10:11):
it's just

Angela (01:10:11):
tragic, you know, it's, it's tragic is the word I was going to use.

John (01:10:15):
And then so many of them, well, not so many, all of them have no story.
That is incredibly sad.
You know, it's, it's really sadwhen we have an unsolved case.
We don't know what happened to 'em.
Mm-hmm.
But it's even more sad whenwe don't know who they are.

(01:10:38):
Like nothing.
We don't know

Angela (01:10:39):
what happened, who they are, where they were

John (01:10:41):
born.
We don't know where they went toschool, their entire existence.
Existence,

Angela (01:10:44):
who's looking for them?

John (01:10:45):
Yeah.
Their entire existence on thisplanet has been erased entirely.
Yeah.
That is tragic.

Angela (01:10:53):
Except for a bedroom somewhere whose parents have kept it
exactly how it was when they left.

John (01:10:58):
Right?
Yep.
Yeah.
It's so freaking sad.
But

Angela (01:11:02):
we got off on a big tangent this time, but we did.

John (01:11:05):
But that is the Heather Dawn Church case.
There's, that's pretty much where it ends.
You know, we, we know that John Andersonwent on as the El Paso County Sheriff
and then he retired and then Lou Smit, hehe went on obviously to be invited into.

(01:11:26):
The JonBenet Ramsey casewhere he really rose to fame.
Um, with that case and all the work thathe put in on that case, John Anderson
kind of gets, he doesn't mind this,I think is how he prefers it, but he
doesn't get near the credit on that withthe JonBenet case because it was Lou's

(01:11:48):
baby that Lou kinda handed off to him.
But John Anderson is still activelyworking that case today, along with
Lou's children who have maintained hisspreadsheet and we talked about that.
And then he too

Angela (01:12:02):
is another person who can walk through the store just
'cause we want to shake his hand.

John (01:12:06):
John Anderson.
Yeah.

Angela (01:12:07):
Yeah,

John (01:12:08):
a hundred percent.
And there, there's a,it's like a non, we're not

Angela (01:12:11):
only inviting people we want to yell at

John (01:12:13):
No, absolutely not.
Just wanna make

Angela (01:12:15):
that clear.

John (01:12:15):
It's like a, um.
I think they did like a nonprofittype thing or something like
that, but there's a group ofinvestigators working with Yeah.
Lou's children.
I remember

Angela (01:12:28):
you telling me that.
And

John (01:12:28):
John Anderson, and they all are working together
to try to solve this case.
And so, and so yeah, hatsoff to them for sure.
And then, you know, LouSmit it, I don't know if,

Angela (01:12:43):
no, it's not a big gesture, but I kind of wanna send him a gift basket
or something, you know, like, thank you.

John (01:12:49):
I don't know if if I'm unique probably, or if Lou
Smits name is recognizable toeverybody else as it is to me.
I don't know.
Had you heard of him before?

Angela (01:13:01):
It sounded familiar, but I, I could not pin place where
from until you said JonBenet.

John (01:13:07):
Gotcha.

Angela (01:13:07):
Obviously it wasn't Heather Don Church, but.
When you said JonBenet,it was like, oh, okay.
That makes sense.

John (01:13:14):
Yeah.
And then I, you know, I've mentionedthroughout this, but John Anderson wrote
the book, um, which was published in2021, and the name of the book is Lou
and JonBenet, A legendary Lomans Questto Solve a Child Beauty, Queen's Murder.
And

Angela (01:13:32):
I need to read that.

John (01:13:33):
I have it.
You can borrow it from anytimeyou want, but it's a, I'm not

Angela (01:13:38):
shocked.

John (01:13:39):
It's a great read.
It's a really good book.
And it's told from somebody that, youknow, so many of these books are, are
written by researchers and that's great.
I have nothing against that.
But John Anderson worked with Lou Smitand worked with Lou Smit on this case.
And so you're kind of getting as close toLou Sm Smith's take on the whole thing.

Angela (01:14:04):
Yeah.
As

John (01:14:04):
is humanly possible.
Told from a guy thatreally admired Lou Smit.
But I don't think that healso doesn't like bullshit.
He doesn't sugarcoat thingsor anything like that.
He just tells the true story.
So it's a great, it's a great book.
It goes into a lot of his personalhistory, John Anderson's history and

(01:14:26):
kind of how he came up in the ranks.
He talks about Lou Smit, he talksabout their friendship and then
obviously then spends a lot of time.
But the, one of the really cool things ishe's produced all of Lou Smits drawings
and everything of the crime scene.
Oh.
All of, they're all in the book.
And so, it's just a interesting,yeah, it's a really good book.

(01:14:46):
I'm pretty sure that it's also availableon Audible if that's your thing, but

Angela (01:14:52):
not sponsored, but just go.
Read this book.

John (01:14:55):
Yeah.
No.
I don't get nothing for this for sure.
But I hope that John Andersondoes because he deserves it.

Angela (01:15:01):
Mm-hmm.

John (01:15:01):
You know, and so anybody that wants a really great true
crime book and one that's wellwritten, 'cause some of 'em suck.
I mean, they have great information,but you can't get through five pages
without wanting to blow your headoff or fall asleep or something.
John doesn't mince

Angela (01:15:20):
words,

John (01:15:20):
but you know, you know how it

Angela (01:15:22):
feels.

John (01:15:23):
But this is not like that.
It's a great read.
It's a fast read.
It keeps you, uh, interested.
It's not just facts andfigures and, and nonsense.
It's, it's, he does that, butin a way that keeps you engaged.
So, you know, it's a, it's a really great,

Angela (01:15:39):
like, you great book.

John (01:15:40):
I, I don't know about that, but

Angela (01:15:42):
I think so.
And I think there's peopleout there who agree with me.

John (01:15:45):
Well, I appreciate that.
I, as long as I'm entertainingpeople and doing the job that we
set out to do, then I am content.

Angela (01:15:53):
Exactly.

John (01:15:55):
Uh, and then we also have to talk about the church family.
Obviously this poorfamily was never the same.

Angela (01:16:02):
No one ever is.

John (01:16:03):
Of course not.
You can't lose a child or asibling and ever be the same.
So after Heather's murder, thefamily really withdrew from
public life for the most part.
They've done a few shows.
They did well.
Michael, her father at least, wasinterviewed for, I'm pretty sure
it was the homicide hunter Okay.

(01:16:24):
Episode that dealt with this case.
But they're really not outin the public eye very much.
Her parents went ahead, obviously withtheir, I guess not obviously, but their,
her parents did go ahead and get divorced.
They were pretty much,it was pretty much final.
By the time of her death.
So they did.
And then her brothers, youknow, they grew up and they

(01:16:47):
dealt with all of this nonsense.
I don't really know much about 'em.
And like I always say, I don't want to,I hope they're living a happy life Yeah.
Unburdened by this as much as possible.
Mm-hmm.
You know, so if

Angela (01:17:00):
they want us to know they can reach out.

John (01:17:02):
Absolutely.
Yep.
And the family has spoken publicly onlya few times, but when they have, it's
always with grace and Quiet Resolve.
They've thanked Lou Smit, they'vepraised John and Anderson.
They've honored Heather not just as a,as, as a victim, but as their daughter.
Right.
You know, and I think so many times allof these victims are boiled down to.

(01:17:31):
The last horrible thingthat happened to 'em.
Yeah.
And their entire livesare forgotten about.
So I think it's really important.
That's why, um, I'm really passionateabout the victim tributes that we
have on the website where I focus verylittle, almost none on the crime, just
a brief overview of the crime, butfocus on the victims and their lives

(01:17:54):
and what a gift they were to humanityfor the time that they were here.
And I think that's importantas we tell the stories.
That's why when we do these episodes,we try to tell a little bit about their
family lives and stuff like that, becausethey're more, way more than the, the last

Angela (01:18:11):
than the horrible thing.
Yeah.

John (01:18:13):
Yeah.
And you know, so many times you'retalking about victims from anywhere
from, you know, babies all theway up to 90-year-old people who.
Are remembered for something thatlasted minutes or in terrible
situations, days or something.
Yeah.
But just a small partof their entire lives.

(01:18:34):
And I think it's important that weremember that they're more than that.
So Robert, Charles Brown thought thathe ca, that he could count on silence.
He thought that drifting from stateto state, hiding behind routine
and discarding victims in forgottenplaces would keep him invisible.

(01:18:54):
He thought the system was too slow,too overwhelmed, too indifferent
to ever catch up with him.
And for a while he was right,but silence has a limit.
And in Heather Don Church's case,it ended with a fingerprint.
It ended with a man like JohnAnderson, who refused to forget.

(01:19:15):
It ended with a detective like LouSmit, who knew how to listen to
what the evidence was trying to say.
Brown didn't confess outta guilt.
He confessed for control.
He dangled names hinted at numbers,claimed he'd killed dozens, and maybe
he had, but behind every confessionwas a deeper cruelty, the manipulation

(01:19:39):
of truth, the exploitation of grief.
He was the kind of man who believedthat the world would never catch
up to him, but Heather did.
Her name was the onethat broke the silence.
Her case was the one that exposed him,and in doing so, she gave voice to every
victim who never got a second look.

(01:20:01):
Lou Smit would go on to chaseanother shadow one that still
haunts Boulder to this day.
And when his time came, hepassed that work to the only
person that he trusted with it.
John Anderson.
Two men bound by truth, byevidence, by a shared refusal to

(01:20:21):
let cases grow cold without a fight.
And the church family, theynever got their daughter
back, but they did get truth.
They got the name and they got theanswer that they were owed even if it
took years longer than it should have.
So, so many cases don't end withjustice, but this one did, and

(01:20:44):
it happened because someone choseto speak louder than the silence.
So we've spent the last four episodestelling you about Heather Don Church.
We told you how she was only 13, howshe disappeared from her own home,
how a fingerprint cracked the silence.

(01:21:07):
We told you about the detective whofound her, the sheriff who wouldn't
give up, and the man who finally said.
Her name and admitted what he had done.
We told you about justice, aboutfailure, about resilience, but before
any of that, before the case files,before the news footage, before the

(01:21:28):
headlines, Heather was just a little girl.
She loved art.
She was quiet, but not shy.
She was thoughtful, patient, thekind of kid who noticed when others
were hurting, the kind who didn'tmean to be the center of attention,
to be the center of someone's world.

(01:21:50):
Heather was the oldest child in thechurch family that meant something.
She was a helper, a calming presence.
Someone her younger brothers could lookup to on the night that she disappeared,
they were at the Cub Scouts, justboys out living a normal Thursday.
Never imagining that the lifethat they, that life as they

(01:22:13):
knew it was about to shatter.
Her mother came home to an open door,an empty chair, and a silence that
screamed louder than any words ever could.
Her father already separated from hermother would spend years under the
cloud of suspicion cast by a brokensystem that didn't know what else to do.

(01:22:34):
Her brothers would grow up with morequestions than answers, trying to rebuild
their childhood in the shadow of asister who was always just outta reach.
And yet Heather still had an impact.
She changed the courseof the sheriff's race.
She brought Lou Smit into that scene.

(01:22:55):
She exposed a serial killer whothought no one was paying attention.
She reminded a state that justice delayed.
Doesn't mean, doesn'thave to mean justice.
Denied.
She mattered, and not just becauseof how she died, but because of how
many people fought to make sure herdeath wasn't the end of her story.

(01:23:16):
You see, victims like Heather are oftenreduced to a few terrible moments.
They're described in past tense, boxedinto timelines and evidence charts.
But Heather was more than thatthan the case that followed her.
She was that child, that sister,that daughter, a friend, a human

(01:23:37):
being with a full life ahead of her.
She never gotta finish middle school.
She never got a fall in love.
She never got to go to prom to graduateto find herself in her twenties
or to make bad coffee in her fir.
Wow, that's tough.

(01:23:57):
Or to make bad coffeein her first apartment.
She never got to choose who she wouldbecome, but we remember her anyway.
Not as a statistic, not as aheadline, but as a girl who mattered.
Heather's legacy lives on, not just inthe case that was solved, but in the

(01:24:17):
people who refuse to let it go cold.
In every detective who now asksharder questions in every parent
who double checks the locks inevery sheriff who understands
that leadership means listening.
Even when it's hard,even when it's too late.
She mattered to her family.

(01:24:39):
She matters to us, and she shouldmatter to you too because Heather Don
Church deserved a full life, and eventhough she didn't get one, the truth
she uncovered has the power to changethe world for those who still can.
So this is for Heather, notfor how she died, but for

(01:25:00):
how fiercely we remember her.

Angela (01:25:05):
We are not recommending any particular documentary as the definitive
version of Heather's story, but ifyou wanna see how her case has put
been portrayed in the media, thereare a couple of options out there.
Forensic Files season 12, episode 12titled Telltale Tracks gives a factual
overview with a focus on the forensicbreakthrough that helps solve the case.

(01:25:30):
And Homicide Hunter covers itin Season eight, episode 16.
Who took Heather?
That's one moredramatized, but it touched.
That's, that one's moredramatized, but it touches on
the early investigative efforts.
Just know going in like one,like most of the true crime,

(01:25:56):
just know going in, like withmost true crime tv, there's a
mix of fact and storytelling.
If Heather's story moved you, if itmade you pause, made you angry, or
made you think, don't let it end here.
Take a moment right nowto follow or subscribe.
Give the episode a thumbs up, a rating,a review, whatever your platform

(01:26:18):
allows, and most importantly, share it.
Share Heather's name, share hervoice, because the more people who
hear her story, the less likelyare to let silence win again.

John (01:26:31):
You can also support the work that we do by visiting dark dialogue.com.
There you'll find full case files,bonus materials, and our adoptive
victim program where you can helpbring attention to victims whose
stories have fallen through the cracks.
If you'd like to contribute directly,you can find us on Patreon and on coffee.
Every dollar goes toward keepingthese investigations alive and public.

Angela (01:26:56):
If you have a cold case, we should cover a lead, a theory.
You can reach us at info@darkdialogue.com.
We listen, we followup and we don't forget.

John (01:27:06):
So this marks the end of Heather's arc in the forest Kepp, her silence,
but her legacy is far from over the workthat John Anderson and Lou Smit began,
continues and the impact of Heather'scase will echo through every future
investigation that refuses to be ignored.

Angela (01:27:26):
So thank you for walking this path with us for listening.
So thank you for walking this pathwith us, for listening, for caring,
and for remembering Heather DonChurch, not only as a file number,
but as a daughter, a sister, and avoice that finally broke the silence.
And I do have to say thank you forJohn for putting in all this effort.

John (01:27:47):
Oh, absolutely.
It is my pleasure.
It really is.
So, so listeners, this is dark dialogue.
Keep listening, keep fighting.
Keep telling the stories andremember, keep the dialogue alive.

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