The Man on the Dirt Bike – Building the Case - Dark Dialogue

Episode Transcript
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John (00:09):
There are times when the world feels smaller and crueler than it ought to.
The murder of Charlie Kirkis one of those times.
It's not just the loss of a publicvoice or a figure in the headlines.
It's the shredding of a family's future.
Behind every microphoneand every argument, there

(00:30):
was a husband and a father.
Behind Charlie's public life was Erica,his wife and partner, and those two
precious children, a three-year-olddaughter and a one-year-old son.
They did not lose an abstract persona.
They did not lose the founderof Turning Point USA or a

(00:50):
political ally of Donald Trump.
They lost a hand to hold at bedtime.
A kiss and a hug after a long day.
A laugh at the dinner table.
A father who should have been therefor birthdays and scraped knees,
and the small daily things that makeup a life the truth is intolerable.

(01:13):
Charlie was the kind of man whostood up when most sat down.
He spoke loudly, often, and withoutapology, you didn't have to agree
with everything he said To recognizethe backbone that it took to say it.
Courage comes in many forms, andwhether you admired him or found him
inferior, loved him or hated him, thouwillingness to stand in the ring and

(01:38):
take punches is something that I respect.
It's a quality that I try to emulate.
It's why his death feels like a theftof something more than just a life.
It feels like the theft of an examplethat we could all learn from, even if
we'd argue with it every step of the way.

(01:59):
We are a true crime podcast.
We talk about monsters, TedBundy, Jack the Ripper, and
we call them what they are.
We do not parse or excuse evil.
Political murder is no different.
It is no more admirable,no more defensible than the
most vile serial killing.

(02:21):
If you are the kind of personwho cheers because someone that
you dislike has been taken byviolence, then this is not for you.
Turn this podcast off.
There is no place herefor celebrating murder.
No matter the politics involved, ourwork is about truth, about justice,

(02:42):
and about remembering victimsas people, not as points scored.
Podcasting is by naturea quest for listeners.
We strive to make quality content thatdraws in people from all walks of life.
That's how ideas circulate, notby shouting into an echo chamber,

(03:02):
but by bringing different voicestogether and forcing them, sometimes
painfully to reckon with each other.
If we hope to attract listenersbroadly, we must model what
dignified disagreement looks like.
We must show that dialogue, even abrasive,even heated, is preferable to bloodshed.

(03:25):
Dialogue leads to better communities.
Violence ends the possibilityof any learning at all.
We must also be blunt about the moralfailure that underlies this act.
The person who fired the shots, hidingin the darkness, taking the cowards
route of striking from concealmentand running away chose the most vile,

(03:48):
despicable, and cowardly option.
There is a moral distinctionbetween standing your ground in
an argument and sneaking a bulletinto somebody just to shut them up.
Those who argue, who face the painof a cross idea conversation deserve
our respect far more than anyone whohad settled disagreement with a gun,

(04:10):
even though I may not personallyagree with many of them, to those who
stood up to Charlie, who argued withhim, who fought with words instead
of bullets, you did the hard thing.
You kept the conversation alive.
For that, you deserveacknowledgement too and not scorn.
This is not about politics.

(04:32):
This is about humanity.
Sometimes the people that wedisagree with most are the
ones who show us our mistakes.
Sometimes they force us to check ourassumptions and refine our thinking.
That is how progress is madepainfully and perfectly through
the friction of opposing views.

(04:53):
If we are to be a country where ideasmatter, we have to cultivate the capacity
to listen even when listening stings.
So tonight we remember a life cut short.
We remember a husband to Erica whonow carries an impossible burden.

(05:14):
We remember a three-year-old daughterand a one-year-old son who will grow up
with stories and pictures and the loveof a community trying to hold them up.
We remember a man with courage andconviction who stood in the public
arena and did not shrink from the fight.
Let this be a quiet promise.

(05:36):
We will honor Charlie by refusingto let violence win the argument.
We will honor him by choosingdialogue, by insisting on the dignity
of debate, and by protecting theright of others to stand and speak.
We will honor him by calling Murder what?
It is monstrous, cowardly, andutterly unacceptable for Erica,

(06:00):
for the young wife and motherwho lost her partner and friend.
And for their little girl andlittle boy who lost their father.
We hold you in our thoughts,in our prayers and in our grief
for those who will carry on thework that Charlie believed in.
And for those who will choose tostand across the table and argue

(06:20):
your own points, rather than take thecoward's way out, we honor you as well.
May you all find strength incommunity, courage and conversation
and resolve in the work of keepingthe dialogue alive to Charlie, Kirk.
Rest in peace, brother.
May yours and all children grow upin a world where words, not bullets,

(06:45):
settle disputes and decide ourfuture, where a dissenting opinion
is welcome instead of feared.
And where the value of a human life ishonored above political points scored.

(07:33):
Tips flooded in a man in a motorcyclehelmet, a blue and white dirt bike seen
near the trail, seen near the body, seen,and then gone in the days after April.
Millsap's murder investigatorswere drowning in grief,
pressure, and public panic.

(07:54):
But amid the chaos, a patternemerged multiple people from
neighbors to joggers re reportedseeing something that didn't belong.
A man riding a dirt bike on atrail, not built for engines.
He didn't wave.
He didn't stop.
He just tore through the quiet like he hadsomewhere to be or something to escape.

(08:17):
And just like that, the man on thedirt bike became the investigation's
first major lead this episode.
It is about how the case tookshape, the clues that stood out, the
statements that didn't line up, andthe slow process of turning, scattered
tips and grainy surveillance intosomething the law could hold onto.

(08:40):
But it's also about obsession.
How law enforcement chased this phantomfigure, how the town latched onto him, and
how one man's odd behavior began to lookless like coincidence and more like guilt.
As detectives worked the angles,April's phone data began drawing an
invisible line straight toward a suspect.

(09:02):
But it wouldn't be easy.
There were alibis to test,there was science to analyze.
There was a case to buildand no room forever.
Hey, Angela, how's it going tonight?

Angela (09:15):
Hey, John.
It's good.
How are you?

John (09:16):
It's, it's good.
I mean, it's, it's some shittythings happened in this country,
you know, this week and.
I know that we're not a political show,but I felt like I had an obligation
to call out a cowardly piece of shitfor the vile behavior that he did.
So there's that.

Angela (09:37):
There's that.
Yeah.

John (09:39):
But otherwise good.

Angela (09:41):
Yeah, yeah,

John (09:42):
yeah.
And you,

Angela (09:44):
I am good.
I I am tired of people endingarguments with violence.

John (09:52):
Amen.

Angela (09:53):
We were given free will and the right to our own opinion and let
somebody have their opinion and move on

John (10:01):
and argument's.
Cool, man.

Angela (10:03):
Yeah.

John (10:04):
That's how shit gets decided.
You know how we learn.
It's how we grow.
Absolutely.
You think about the founding fatherssetting up this country and talking about
our co You didn't think they fought.
They freaking, half ofthem hated each other.
They bitched and moaned eachother all the freaking time.
Exactly.
They didn't kill each other.
They compromised.
They exactly come to an agreement,which built, in my opinion, one of

(10:26):
the greatest systems of governmentthis world has ever seen, so.

Angela (10:30):
Mm-hmm.

John (10:30):
Yeah.

Angela (10:31):
Did you ever see your parents argue growing up?

John (10:33):
Never.

Angela (10:34):
Never.

John (10:35):
Never.

Angela (10:35):
Well, no.
Okay, so then that doesn'thelp my point at all.
But I've seen my parents argueand a little bit of arguing is
good because you see the otherside, you come to a conclusion

John (10:51):
a hundred percent.
It

Angela (10:52):
stages you the things

John (10:55):
I could, they

Angela (10:56):
don't kill each other.

John (10:57):
I could not agree more.
And I should clarify, my parentsdefinitely argued from, they just
had a, from hard and fast rule thatthe kids would never see them argue.
Of course they argued.

Angela (11:10):
Right.

John (11:11):
You know, and,

Angela (11:11):
and that's how they came to conclusions.
Yes.
So I, if you're gonna tell me thatthere are any couples out there that
have never argued, I don't believethat they even care about each

John (11:22):
other.
I think I caught bullshit on that.

Angela (11:24):
They, they obviously don't care about each other then.

John (11:27):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
'cause

Angela (11:27):
an argument is they care to help someone grow.

John (11:31):
A hundred percent.
I, I couldn't agree more.

Angela (11:33):
So

John (11:33):
yeah,

Angela (11:34):
that's how I feel about it.

John (11:36):
Yep.
I, I, I totally agree.
And I mean, you know, argumentbrings out the best of both sides.
Mm-hmm.
It really does.
I mean, you know, if you have, ifyou have two sides with competing
ideas, and they argue usually oncethey meet in the middle, they take
the best of both sides mm-hmm.
And come out to this middle point,which is the best for everybody.

(11:58):
Most

Angela (11:58):
definitely.

John (11:59):
You know, most definitely.
It has never, ever, ever worked insociety to just kill your opponents.
It doesn't work.
Right.
Ask Hitler.
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
He's dead.
Yeah.
Ask Mussolini.
Oh yeah.
They hung him.
I mean, it just has never worked.

Angela (12:18):
Yeah.

John (12:18):
You know, and I mean, look at the Romans.
They made it a practice of murderinganybody that disagreed with 'em.
Right.
How great is their empire today?
King

Angela (12:27):
Henry vii.

John (12:29):
Henry vii.
A hundred percent.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So yes.
Argue, argue, but leaveyour damn guns at home.

Angela (12:38):
Exactly.

John (12:39):
Or carry 'em like I do for the other nutcases that decide
that they're gonna use them.
I

Angela (12:44):
know, right?

John (12:45):
Don't use your gun for an argument.

Angela (12:47):
No, because that's a bell.
You can't unring.
It's just, I'm sorry, I have, I haveno words that are nice and we're
trying to be a little nice here.

John (13:01):
But the fact of the matter is, is what this dip shit did
is amplified Charlie's voice.
Uh, I don't even know.
I mean, thousands of percent if

Angela (13:10):
he was trying to shut him up, he did it the wrong
way, is what you're saying.

John (13:13):
Yeah.

Angela (13:14):
Yeah.

John (13:14):
I mean, we went from 18,000 turning point chapters across
the United States to over 40,000.
Yeah.
In like a week.

Angela (13:23):
He took the mic from him, but he gave him a megaphone.

John (13:26):
Exactly.
And then there's, I mean, there'speople like me all over the world
that are now saying, I am Charlie.
Right.
We will take up the mantle.
We will continue the fight.

Angela (13:37):
Right?

John (13:38):
Yeah.
That'ss, usually what happens,

Angela (13:41):
I just, uh, I,
I don't know how to say it.
Like I have friends on both sides ofthe fence, and I hate watching them
fight with people and ending 20 yearfriendships because of one argument.
Why can't you just.
Agree to disagree, realize that you stillcare about the person you cared about

(14:04):
yesterday before they said that sentence

John (14:06):
100.
'cause

Angela (14:07):
some of them is still in there of what you cared about before.

John (14:12):
A hundred percent.
And move on.
And you know, I mean, I don'tthink it's any great secret.
I kind of avoid speaking ofpolitics on this show, but I don't
think it's any great secret ofwhere I'd come down on the aisle.
But I've, I have friendsthat are liberals, I have
friends that are homosexual.
I have friends that areall over the map as far.

(14:34):
Mm-hmm.
I mean, you name it.
And I have either, you know, talkedto, had relationships with, have made
friends of people from all walks oflife with all different mentalities.
And I'm a fuller, richerperson because of that.
Mm-hmm.
They have never diminished me.
Right.
You know, I mean, I don't, I makeit a habit to not argue politics.

(14:59):
Right people because I don'tthink it gets anywhere.
No.
But having an honest dialogueabout your position I think
is beneficial for everybody.
And I don't know where, and no, I do.
I know exactly where.
Yeah.
We raised a generation of,everybody gets a trophy.
Yeah.
To the point where now if somebodysays something that hurts your

(15:20):
feelings, you gotta kill 'em.

Angela (15:23):
And a generation of you, I'm not advocating violence and abuse, but
sometimes you need to spank your kid.
Well, I mean, you know, we can'tAnd you can't do that anymore.
So kids don't know how to grow up and

John (15:38):
Well, they don't know how to handle adversity in any way.
Right.
Wrong, yeah.
We grew up in the generation of, or atleast my father said this, but you're of
the same generation of, we grew up with.
Oh, you hurt your finger.
Will, it'll feel betterwhen it quits hurting.

Angela (15:54):
Exactly.

John (15:55):
Go out and play, rub some

Angela (15:55):
dirt on it

John (15:56):
and get over it.
We, we grew up in a generation ofDo you want me to step on your foot
and take your mind off of Exactly.
And, and you know, I don't know.
Come home sometime beforethe street lights come on.
You know?
Other than that, gotake care of yourself or

Angela (16:09):
we've discussed it.
In my case, my family would honk the horn.
Yeah.
Because we couldn't gotoo far, but Exactly.
If we could hear the horn,it's time to come home.

John (16:17):
But this, this teacup generation that we've raised where Yeah.
They need safe places to run to.
If somebody hurts their feelings,this is what it leads to.
Yeah.
This is, it leads to people thatcannot handle argument, whether
it's intelligent argument or not.
And that's what's reallydangerous is we have an entire.

(16:41):
Generation of people out therethat even if you make an argument
that proves them faults mm-hmm.
They cannot accept it.
Yeah.
Because intellect doesn't rule anymore.
Feelings rule.
And we can't be led by feelingsbecause shit, they change on a whim.

Angela (16:58):
Yeah.

John (16:59):
So, well,

Angela (17:00):
and I have the biggest feelings that I can't control.
We all know how weird I am,

John (17:04):
but I can't say weird.

Angela (17:05):
I still see the point of letting everyone have their own
feelings and opinions and stillbeing civil at the end of the day,

John (17:15):
a hundred percent absolutely.
Could not agree more.

Angela (17:19):
You still have to put your kids to bed, you still
have to put food on the table.
You still have to make the world go round.
It takes all kinds.
I said it earlier, I'm gonna say it again.
It takes all kinds, or it wouldbe boring as hell if everyone
agreed on absolutely everything.

John (17:34):
Well, a hundred percent.
I couldn't agree with you more.
And then on the other side of theconversation, which is iconic, right?
Is you know, the other side of theconversation is, I mean, we are
a community whether we want to be

Angela (17:47):
Yeah.

John (17:47):
Or not.
We're all humans in this together.

Angela (17:51):
And so, okay.
To that point, I have astory when you're done.

John (17:54):
Okay.
And so, you know, when it comesdown to it, when you kill somebody
because they have a different opinionthan you, you rob all of humanity.
Yeah.
You didn't just stifle a voice.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, you robbed humanity ofwho knows what We don't know.
Yeah, we'll never know.

(18:14):
And, and this isn'tjust a political thing.
This isn't just Charlie Kirk, you'veheard me say the exact same thing Yeah.
About a number of victims in theirtributes time and time and time again.
And I'll continue to that.
When you take a human life, yourob humanity of who knows what that
spark, whatever it was gonna be.

(18:34):
How many, how many amazing presidentsand senators and saints and what Yeah.
Whatever.
Musicians.
Yeah.
And artists.
Have we lost to just Yeah.
Murder.
Just people, insane acts of violence.

Angela (18:50):
People who would take care of adopted kids that need adoption.
People who would take care ofanimals, people who would, you've
robbed him of all those people.

John (18:59):
Exactly.
And you had a story.

Angela (19:02):
So do you know Drew Lynch?

John (19:05):
No,

Angela (19:05):
he's the stuttering comedian.

John (19:08):
Okay.
No.

Angela (19:09):
Okay.

John (19:10):
He

Angela (19:11):
has.
He's hilarious.
But he did a video shortlyafter this incident.
Um, I'm not sure incident's a bigenough word for it, but that's what
I went with, that he was doing oneof his comedy shows and a gentleman
had a heart attack in his crowd.

John (19:31):
Wow.

Angela (19:33):
And watching people jump in do CPR call 9 1 1.
No one checked his pocket forhis political affiliation.

John (19:44):
Exactly.

Angela (19:44):
No one checked his pocket for his sexual orientation.
They saw their fellow audience memberunable to breathe and perform CPR.
Where did that America go?

John (19:58):
Well, that's just the thing and, and with this new America that's taken
its place allows a beautiful younggirl to be stabbed together or to be
stabbed to death on a New York subway.
For what exactly?
Yeah.
I have no clue.
Yeah.
By a total stranger.
Yeah, total stranger.
And it allows nonsense, likethe Boston bombing mm-hmm.

(20:23):
And the Oklahoma City bombing.
Yep.
And you know, these, all the, all the,the number of shootings and I mean, I
can go on and on and on, but where it allcomes down to the heart of it all is, you
know, kind of where, where I ended thatlittle, my little thing on Charlie Kirk.
But you know, what it comes down to is norespect for human life and for humanity.

(20:51):
And the gift that it is.
I mean, yeah.
It's just absurd to me that we'reat this place in, and I can't even
say in this country, in this world,the, because it's in the world.
It's everywhere.
The world.
Mm-hmm.
Where, you know, we see it, you know?
Um.
I was talking, uh, I can't remember,it was a couple, two or three EP

(21:11):
episodes ago where I was talkingabout Charlie Starkweather, and
that was in, I think 50, 54, 56,and then in the mid to late fifties.
And, you know, he killed 11 people.
And I mean, it was huge news.
It was like, you know, nobody hadever heard of this kind of insanity.

(21:31):
Yeah.
We talked about Ed Geen.
Now we're so desensitizedto this shit that I know.
I don't even, I'm in the businessof following true crime and I don't
even hear a, a small percentage,percentage of the cruel, inhumane
shit that goes on all the time.

(21:53):
And we don't even blink an eye at it.
I

Angela (21:55):
know

John (21:56):
as a society it blows my mind.

Angela (21:59):
What, yeah.
What's terrible is the videos.
Obviously, 'cause everyone wasrecording it that are on the
internet of what happened to Charlie.
You can't take those down.
His kids are gonna see those someday.

John (22:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Angela (22:18):
And some of us, this, I don't know how to word this, the act itself
we're desensitized to having seen it.
Like they, they have those things.
Are you sure you wanna see this video?
And everybody's like, whatever.
And they click yes because they'relike, yeah, I'm sure we wanna see it.

(22:39):
I'm not desensitized to whathappened, who and who it was.
And then it was human.
But the fact that we can seethe unadulterated video of
what happened and we're fine.
Yeah.
What has happened to us

John (22:53):
a lot.

Angela (22:54):
So

John (22:55):
a lot.
That's

Angela (22:56):
where I'm gonna leave that, but I am, I'm genuinely pissed that his
kids are gonna come across that someday.

John (23:02):
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
I'm, I am just lividabout the whole thing.
And usually, you know, I shut theseconversations down pretty quickly.

Angela (23:12):
Yeah.
But we're just kind of,

John (23:13):
but you know what this conversation needs to be had people need to speak
up on both sides of the aisle Yeah.
And say, this shit cannothappen anymore, period.
Yep.
We are not okay with, with the violence.
Any violence.
We're not okay with it.

(23:34):
Yeah.
I don't care who it's against.
It's, I mean, I'm sick of it.
Yes.
And we cannot tolerate it as a society.
We cannot tolerate it.
And there is a, an eventualconclusion to this, and it is
absolute anarchy and nobody wants it.
It's horrifying.
So it has to be turned around now.

(23:55):
Why?
It still can be.

Angela (23:56):
It's horrifying because more people that you love.
And I say you as a general you,not you, 'cause I'm looking at you,
but more people that anybody lovesare gonna be casualties of this.

John (24:08):
Absolutely.

Angela (24:10):
And you gotta think about that every time you wake up.
Well, and these decisions I make ordecisions somebody else makes, my
family could be a casualty of that

John (24:19):
100%.
And the fact of the matter is, is whenthere are bullets flying over crowds
of people, it is just a matter oftime before unintended victims Yeah.
Occur.
And I don't, I don't mean to minimize thefact, like with speaking about Charlie
Kirk, I don't mean to mean like hewasn't innocent or anything like that.

(24:43):
Right.
But I'm saying that

Angela (24:44):
No, I get it.

John (24:45):
Multiple,

Angela (24:46):
any of those students could have gone, could have

John (24:48):
been killed.
Yeah.
Easily.
Easily

Angela (24:50):
a ricochet.
It could have gone through somebody, itcould have taken out a lot more than.
That person's intended target,

John (24:59):
and it is just a matter of time before

Angela (25:03):
mm-hmm.

John (25:03):
Something like that happens and Yeah.
You know, then you talk about like, allthese school shootings and all the rest

Angela (25:09):
shit.
Yeah.
What did those kids do?
I hate that.

John (25:10):
I know.
Yeah.

Angela (25:12):
The Jen Dean concert.
Yes.
What did any of those people do?

John (25:15):
Nothing.

Angela (25:16):
Yeah.

John (25:17):
Nothing.

Angela (25:18):
Or even if they did, who is that person to decide?
Yeah.
When they're shooting blanklyinto a, a field of faces,
it's just, it's disgusting.
It's, it pisses me off.
Damnit.
Well,

John (25:31):
it pisses usually

Angela (25:32):
John's the one that's pissed off in this room.

John (25:35):
Yeah, no, it is.
Um, it's just so sad and terrible.
Mm-hmm.
And horrible.
And, um, and yeah, I just felt like.
That conversation needed a big place.
Yeah.
And I appreciate I had something to sayand you obviously had something to say.
Yeah.
And so

Angela (25:53):
I just, I appreciate that you see all sides, that you are open enough
and willing enough to see all sides.
Um, people can't see us, but I fistbumped him after he was done reading it
because it was touching and important.
And it's not just one sided andwe can't just live one sided.

John (26:13):
No, absolutely not.
And as crazy as it is to say Charlie Kirkwas probably the best example of listening
to both sides of any human I've ever seen.
It was his

Angela (26:26):
tagline.
Yeah.

John (26:28):
A hundred percent.
So yeah.
It's what made him

Angela (26:32):
mm-hmm.

John (26:32):
This famous voice Yeah.
Is because he would listen to both sides.
Yeah.
And the latent Great Rush Limbaugh.
He kicked all this shit off becausehe was one of the very, very first
that encouraged his opponentsto call in and argue with him.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, and more of thatneeds to happen, not less way,

(26:54):
way more just vocal arguments.
Not, yeah, physical stand and screamand everything you want to, but you
don't have to react in violence.
But that healthy discord ishow we move forward in society.
That's how we got where we are,and if we're going to move forward,
that's how we're gonna move forward.
Yeah.

(27:14):
When you resort to resort to violence.
We will go backwards, leaps and bounds.
Mm-hmm.
That is a promise.
I a hundred percent guarantee it.

Angela (27:23):
What's that saying?
History repeats itself, people.

John (27:25):
Yeah.
Yep.

Angela (27:27):
So, okay, well Xlo, let's kick it out.
Murder both of us this time.
'cause I jumped on it too.

John (27:33):
That's all right.
Where we're at tonight is in themiddle of the search for April mil.
April Millsap's killer and one detailkept resurfacing a man on a blue

(27:55):
and white dirt bike riding fast.
With a helmet.
With a helmet and anonymous.
He wasn't part of the searchparty, he wasn't a neighbor.
And the timing way too close for comfort.

Angela (28:09):
Yeah, and it, it wasn't just one siding, multiple people who
didn't know each other all describedthe same thing, A dirt bike, black
helmet, and someone who looked likethey were trying not to be seen.
He didn't fit the scenery andhe sure didn't stick around
to answer any questions.

John (28:27):
Welcome back to Dark Dialogue, the podcast where we unravel the
shadows of the human mind and divedeep into the mysteries that haunt
small towns and big cities alike.
I'm your host John.

Angela (28:39):
And I'm Angela.
And together we shine a light on thestories that keep us up at night.
Unsolved disappearanceslive stolen too soon.
The questions that refuse to be buried.

John (28:50):
In this episode, we're following the early case building efforts, how
the Man on the Dirt bike became aperson of interest, how law enforcement
began narrow narrowing down theirfocus and how April's digital footprint
pointed in an unexpected direction.

Angela (29:06):
We'll look at inconsistencies in witness statements and emerging
suspect profile, and the quiet shiftin the investigation from quote random
act to something much more targeted.

John (29:19):
And before we jump in, just a quick reminder, follow the show, leave a review,
give us a thumbs up, and share thisepisode with someone who needs to hear it.
Every share helps keep April'sstory in the spotlight.

Angela (29:34):
All right, John, let's talk about the man on the bike and
how a blur on a trail became theinvestigation's first solid lead.

John (29:42):
Alright, well let's jump in and do that.
So.
You know, I've mentioned in the previousepisodes, and do you kinda remember?
It's been a little bit becauseof my completely chaotic life.
It's,

Angela (29:53):
well, it's not just yours,

John (29:55):
but, uh, well, I am the reason that our, our recording schedule is
so jacked up currently, but, um, doyou kinda remember where we're at?
This I'm everything.

Angela (30:05):
I'm, yeah.
I'm trying to remember.
Between her and, and Heather Dawn.

John (30:09):
Uh, oh.
Yes.
Yeah.
So, um, so just a real quick recap.
You know, April was a 14-year-old and, um,she went to take her dog Penny on a walk.
Okay.
She was walking down the trail.
She, I was like

Angela (30:23):
babysitting little brother or walking a dog.
Which one are we?

John (30:27):
Yeah.
And so she never, she didn't come home.
Her mom went out, um, lookingfor, unfortunately she found,
yeah, a bunch of police.
And then in the last episode, um, wetalked about them being taken to the
police station, questioned extensively.
Her young little boyfriend who diddumb, A dumb thing and Oh yeah.

Angela (30:47):
Text

John (30:47):
messages and you know, so cops were looking at him, but then
they pulled the footage from theMcDonald's to confirm his alibi and
confirmed that he was not part of it.
And then we threw in a couple ofother odd instances where we had
the little drunk teenager thatwas just being a little weirdo.
Oh yeah.
And the guy in the white van whocreeped out a young girl, but turns

(31:09):
out he was just a contractor outshowing a couple of his employees,
a couple houses he worked on.
And so

Angela (31:16):
I almost feel like we should stop selling white vans.

John (31:19):
Oh, I know.
Well, it's kind of funny because juststop, you know, um, you know, I listened
to True Crime Garage and I think,uh, those guys are freaking awesome.
But their thing and theirmerch is ban the van.
They have Ban the van.
I

Angela (31:33):
agree.

John (31:34):
Ban the van.
Yeah.

Angela (31:35):
At least White van.
Why is it always a white van?
White?

John (31:38):
Uh, there's so many freaking creepers that, uh, use Vans.
It's insane.
But,

Angela (31:44):
but why is it always white?

John (31:46):
It's not always

Angela (31:47):
white.
I know, but there's 98% ofthe time it's white vans.

John (31:50):
And it's because quite simply, I would say there's probably 98%
of the vans out there are white.
Yeah, because they'reproduced commercially.
That's true.
And almost all commercial vehicles are

Angela (32:03):
white.
White.
So you can put it.
Logo.
Go on it.
Yeah.

John (32:07):
Whatever.
All right,

Angela (32:08):
fine.
But still.

John (32:09):
Yep.
So I would say that that is thereason, but it's crazy how many Yeah.
Creepers are Well, that's whyit's called a creeper van.
A creeper van.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so, um, so anyway, that'skind of where we're at.
Um, and then you rememberthe, the bloodhound, I can't
remember his name, but mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Et track down her cell phone, which wasfound quite a ways away from her body.

(32:32):
And then they found her, um, backpackthrown into a, into a yard, quite
a ways away from her body as well.
Right.
So, um, there was severalwitnesses that came forward.
So the first one that we'll talk aboutis a woman by the name of Mary Stein.
And she was a college professor, andshe gave one of the most detailed

(32:52):
testimonies and said that she sawApril give a quote tense or tight tense
smile as she separated from a man whowas holding his motorcycle helmet.
And she described this man staring atApril angrily, and he appeared to be

(33:13):
significantly older than April and waswearing heavy clothing, which stood out
because it was a warm or a hot summer day.
And so that would definitely,you know, raise alarm.
Yeah.
And then, but it also brings up, well,you know, what you had said I, in
one of the previous episodes about.

(33:34):
It's hard to believe that as hard as shefought, she didn't like get any skin under
her fingernails or anything like that.
But he's wearing a heavy bikingjacket, you know, and long pants.
And so, you know, he is dressedlike a motorcycle rider.
Yeah.
They wear that stuff because if theylay the bike down, it protects him.
Oh yeah.
So they, they dress heavyeven in warm weather.

(33:55):
But it would definitely stand out, youknow, when everybody's running around his
shorts and a tank top and here's this guy.
Right.
You know, dressed up like crazy.
And then another witness was, uh,her husband, Doug Stein, and he was
walking with her and he also identifiedApril on the trail, but he couldn't
describe the man in much detail.

(34:17):
But, um, he did confirm the odd pairingbetween this older looking guy who
didn't appear to be old enough tobe like a father or anything like
that, you know, I mean, it was just.
It was weird.
Okay.
And we've all, well, maybe we haven't,but I have definitely seen girls that,
you know, aren't old enough to bewith boys that are too old to be Yeah.

(34:40):
What I'm trying to get at.
Oh, yeah.
And so it makes a lot of sensewhy both of them would've been
like, okay, that's, this is weird.
That's weird.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, when you see, it'slike obviously a father, daughter,
uncle, niece, something like that.
And you don't even think about it.
But there is those couple of agesthat are, it's like that don't
fall anywhere logically usually.

Angela (35:01):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like every town, including
ours, and you probably know who I'mtalking about, has that one guy that
just can't let go and he is stillcruising Maine and he is still hanging
out at the parties and he is still,

John (35:18):
oh yes, this

Angela (35:19):
is the guy.

John (35:21):
Yeah.
It's the dude from VarsityBlues that gets hit in the nuts.
Yes.
A whiffle ball bat.
You know, they're, there's acreepy freaking guy that like, they

Angela (35:30):
got nowhere to go yet.

John (35:32):
Yeah.
They just have no life.
Awkward.
It ended when they graduated high school.
That's their, that's theirnumber one achievement in life.
Was

Angela (35:41):
graduating high school.
Graduating

John (35:42):
high school.
It's

Angela (35:42):
all over here.
It's all over from here.

John (35:45):
Yeah.
So, um, then another witness was a guy bythe name of Eric Risk, and he saw April
walking Penny, um, beside a man with adirt bike right around 6:25 PM And then
on his return trip, about 25 minuteslater, both April and that man were gone.

(36:05):
But the dog remained and heremembered the man's tense demeanor,
his full face helmet and his, hissame heavy clothing, a backpack.
Um, his description of the sets of thesuspect as again, older and physically
imposing, supported the Stein's account.

(36:27):
Then we have another gentlemanby the name of William Buchanan
who saw a man on a blue and whitemotorcycle wearing a full face helmet.
And although the helmet obscuredhis facial details, he was later
able to identify the suspect.
Okay.
And then, um, these couple I know thatI've already mentioned before, and

(36:47):
that's Amy and Gel Spinella, and theywere near Liberty Trail where they
saw a roll again with a motorcyclist,and then moments later, April was
gone and her dog Penny was whimpering.
The rider had made a U-turn.
Oh, it's, yeah, it's everythingabout this is just so damn tragic.
Yeah.

(37:07):
But um, they said that the riderhad made a U-turn parked and
then reemerged out of the bushes.
Amy would later recall hispiercing eyes, and she was very
instrumental in helping to createthis composite sketch that was used.
But ironically, she wasn't able to confirmthe suspect from once he was finally

(37:33):
arrested, even though her descriptionof him led to this, to this sketch.
And then the last witness thatwe'll talk about is a classmate who
was never named, no doubt, becauseof their age, and that's fine.
Yeah.
But one of April's classmates reportedseeing her talking to a man on a blue
and white motorcycle that evening.

(37:54):
And then another witness nearthe woods, close to where the
body was found, described a manresembling the, the same sketch.
Um, as, as Amy had given.
So all these witnesses aretelling pretty much, yeah.
Identical stories.
None.
There's no big outliers there.

(38:15):
You know, there's nobody saying,oh, I didn't see a kind of
motorcycle, but I saw like this75-year-old, you know, I mean, yeah.
Nothing like that.
All of their, it's

Angela (38:24):
sky and a horse road through

John (38:26):
Yeah.

Angela (38:26):
Yeah.

John (38:27):
All of their, um, testimony pretty much matches they're able
to describe the motorcycle, thehelmet, the clothing, the, the age.
If the odd feeling if they saw himwithout his helmet on, they were able
to give some physical descriptions.
Yeah.
If they saw him with it on,obviously, what are you gonna

(38:47):
describe with a helmet on, helmet on?
Right.
So.
But like I said, the composite sketchwas synthesized from these accounts
and it emphasized the suspect'ssharp eyes in stern expression.
While some would later say that the imagelooked too young, the resemblance to the

(39:07):
douche bag that's gonna be arrested forthis did generate tips and it kept the
public focus on this dirt bike rider.
So, along with that, then, we knowwe said in the last episode that,
um, her phone was turned over to theFBI for their digital analysis unit,

(39:29):
who they, who then tore into that.
And so we've already talked about the, themisreporting of it being a Fitbit, but it
was actually the just a sports trackingapp on her son's Samsung Galaxy phone.
I think I'm pretty positive.
It was the MyFitnessPal tracking app.
Mm-hmm.
That she had on there.

(39:49):
And on July 24th that day that thatapp logged over 3000 data points,
providing one of the most detailedvictim timelines, timelines that
has ever been introduced into court.
So at 6 28, April texted her boyfriend,that crazy freaking sad text that says,

(40:12):
I think I almost got kidnapped OMFG.
Mm-hmm.
And then almost immediately afterthat, her recorded speed spike showing
that she took off and started running.
Yeah.
And then from 6 31 to 6 33, there wasthose, those weird calls, the three failed
calls that went to un unknown numbers.

(40:35):
Where we think that she was probablytrying to call for help and the,
the fitness tracker app at thesame time shows her zigzagging
running in and around the woods.
Obviously she's trying to escape.
Yeah, somebody paid somebody.
Yeah.
Yes.
And then at 6:44 PM April's movementstopped at the location where her body

(41:00):
would later be found, and then after sixforty four, the phone began moving again.
But this time between 13 and 22 milesan hour speeds far too fast to be
April on foot, but way more consistentwith somebody on a motorcycle.
Yeah.
And then as we talked about lastepisode, the device was then

(41:22):
later discarded near Omo Road.
And so the data transfer from her phoneinto a silent witness, I mean, it's.
It is one of the craziest cases I thinkI've ever seen for this digital evidence.
Mm-hmm.
And it really is all becauseof that fitness Tracker app.

(41:44):
I mean, that's why we use them becausethey literally are tracking Yeah.
All of our movements.
Right.
And so to have that on and logging duringthis was a tremendous amount of evidence.

Angela (41:57):
It's one of those times where it, the, I wish Dogs
Could Talk comes into play.

John (42:05):
100%.
Yeah.
So then, um, officers, once they,once they figured out kind of what
had gone on, what had gone on, they,they pretty much knew at this point
because of that phone activity thatsomebody on a motorcycle attacked this
girl and then rode off with her phone.

(42:25):
So they went to a gas station.
And pulled surveillance footage.
Mm-hmm.
Which showed a guy at a Speedway gasstation in ar mea at 6:17 PM just minutes
before witnesses saw April on the trail.
And he was wearing the same darkclothing that would, um, that
matched his description and hewas accompanied by another guy.

(42:50):
And then they pulled, um, recordingfrom a residential security camera.
And this was a little before likeall the ring cameras and stuff.
Yeah.
But, um, we were definitely in the areaof a lot of home security cameras by now.
And this was one that kind ofpointed out towards the street.

(43:11):
And when you view that security footage.
You can see this guy on this blue andwhite motorcycle passing right near
Omo Road right in front of this house.
And this sighting on this, on thiscamera matched perfectly with the cell
phone data that they had already gotten.

(43:31):
And so it's pretty obviousthat that's the douche bag.
And then they also pulled otherneighborhood surveillance,
which would place the suspectin our meda that evening.
And um, so we'll just go ahead andsay that the douche bag that we're
talking about is a douche bag by thename of James Van Callus, and we'll

(43:53):
be talking about that, this ass hat.
But he is an class hat.
I mean, what he did to thisgirl kind of takes him to almost
the next, well, I know what

Angela (44:03):
he's doing, but when you say ass hatt, it gets me every time.
Oh,

John (44:06):
I know.
But.
You know what?
There's something about this crime, andI've said it probably every episode,
and I probably will until we finish thisarc. And it is just something so cruel
and vile about this girl's death andthe way that he murdered him that, I
mean, it just takes him to a new level.

(44:27):
Yeah.
But he claimed that he hadn'tleft home until after eight 30.
Well, he's the one that was identifiedon the surveillance video at the Speedway
gas station with his brother Donnie.
Then, you know, it was obviousthat he's the douche bag that was
on the motorcycle and everything.

(44:48):
And so, um, once they've identified him,and if you remember, I kind of alluded
to this a little bit and I was sayingthat there was a cop that was driving
down and they knew they were lookingfor this blue and white motorcycle and.
Some people called it like a dirt bike.
Some people called it a motocross bike.
Some people called it an Enduro.

(45:10):
For motorcycle people thatprobably mean something for me.
I don't know what any of that shit means.
I know what a dirt

Angela (45:16):
bike is.
Yeah.
I just wrinkled my eyebrows at you.
So for me, nothing.

John (45:19):
Yeah, like I don't like an Enduro, but that was said
multiple, multiple, multiple times.
It was an Enduro.
It was an Enduro and this COthen saw blue and white Enduro.
So apparently that meanssomething to motorcycle people.

Angela (45:33):
Yeah.
I'm

John (45:34):
not one, so I don't know.

Angela (45:35):
I'm not either.

John (45:36):
But anyway, he was able to identify this motorcycle, um, parked at Donny Ben
call's house and then he's the, I toldyou the cop was pretty sharp and he took
a picture of it with his cell phone.
Yeah.
So that he knew that you, you know, whenthey went back, if anybody said, which
they did that the motorcycle wasn't there,he could be like, oh yeah, dip shit.

(45:57):
Well I took a picture of it.
So just kinda summing all that up.
You know, the sports tracker app data,the surveillance video, the cell records.
Created a digital map that aligned prettymuch perfectly with witness accounts
and they placed, um, and, and all ofthat stuff placed April and Van Calles

(46:19):
on the same trail at the same time, andthen showed the progression from her
texted warning to her final moments.
And so prosecutors in court would laterdescribe this convergence as a unique
fingerprint, circumstantial evidence,so precise that it filled the gaps

(46:39):
left by the absence of DNA or anyforensic evidence or anything like that.
Now that I've named this ass hat, huh?
We also gotta say that James BenCallis did not operate in isolation.
His family played a complicated rolein the investigation from giving him

(46:59):
false Ali alibis and making conflictingstatements to outright lies, lies
and defiance of law enforcement.
So starting with Donny Van Callas, hisbrother, a technically Donald Van Callas,
he went by the name Donny, and he's theyounger brother of James Van Callas Jr.

(47:22):
And Donny's actions and testimony didplay a notable but complicated role
in the investigation and the trial.
So Donnie lived in our Mait Township,which would become significant as
James claimed that he had en visitedhim on the day of the murder.

(47:43):
Okay.
There's no public indication thatDonnie had any criminal record or
connection with the murder, but Ihave my own personal opinions, which
everybody by this point should know.
I'm not afraid to share.
And I think the dude's a pile ofshit, and I think he's a pile of shit
because he lied about his brother.

(48:04):
Yep.
And so he was interviewed by policeas part of their efforts to establish
James's whereabouts and confirm his alibi.
And when first approached Donnie flatout lied to the police, he claimed
that he had lost his cell phone.
He didn't even know where it was.
But I mean, obviously the dude'sa freaking moron as well as

(48:27):
being a piece of shit becausehe says, I lost my cell phone.
I even, I don't even havemy cell phone anymore.
And so the cop was like, oh, really?
Dials the number phone raises.
And then Donnie was like, oh, his pulls itout of his pocket, hands it to the cops.
I mean like, what a freaking, yeah.
Shit.
And then look,

Angela (48:47):
you found my cell phone for me.

John (48:49):
Yeah.
Oh good.
Look at everywhere for that.
So, you know, he tried to lie aboutJames being there when he was there.
I mean, it was just a piece of shit.

Angela (48:58):
Yeah.

John (48:58):
So phone records would show that Donnie sent James a text
at 6:44 PM on the day of April'smurder stating that he was home.
So this helped to refute James'sstatement that he was at Donnie's
house at the time of the crime, whichcontributes to the collapse of his alibi.
And it also shows Donny's as bigof a piece of shit as his brother

(49:22):
is, because if it wouldn't havebeen for that text message.
Then he would've lied his ass off.
He did lie.
Yeah.
He just got caught in a lie andthen forced to tell the truth.
No doubt.
Because he was either gonna faceperjury charges or the truth.
So he didn't have a choice.
But he ended up admitting underoath that James had asked him

(49:45):
to delete all the texts betweenthem, but he didn't, and ended up
keeping the messages on his phone.
And then ultimately it's reportedin some places that he ultimately
turned them over to the police.
He didn't turn shit overto Yeah, because he lied.
They caught him.
He hadn't, he didn't have a choice.
Yeah.
At that point.

(50:05):
But Donnie would testify in courtabout the events of the day.
He'd recount that his brotherarrived at his house with some
kind of a gang gift and showed nosigns of blood or torn clothing.
And he placed James's arrival sometimebetween seven 10 and seven 15, which was
after the murder had already occurred.

(50:26):
But during questioning, Donnie wasfrequently vague or he claimed not
to remember certain details, whichled to some pretty tense exchanges
between him and the prosecutorthat the judge had to intervene in.
Basically, the prosecutor was pissed offbecause this piece of shit was lying.
Yeah.
And if he wasn't lying outright, he was lying by omission.

(50:48):
He was trying to notimplicate his brother.
Yeah.
And hey, I'm all about like standingup for your family and stuff, but
when you're a piece of shit, brotherkicks a 14-year-old girl to death.
Yeah.
Hang his ass.
Yeah.
I would never, I would neverdefend a piece of shit that

(51:08):
would do something like that.
I don't give a shit who they are, butDonnie claimed that his reluctance
to immediately turn his phoneover was not at all related to the
murder investigation, but was dueto issues surrounding marijuana use.
Because, yeah, so ultimately, Donny'stestimony and phone records contradicted

(51:31):
James van call's alibi and would beleveraged by the prosecution to strengthen
the circumstantial case against James.
So, while he was a piece of shit whoinitially withheld information and
attempted to protect himself, he did.
I, we, I don't know.

(51:52):
I could, I cannot say unless that heactively engaged in a cover of the crime.
I question anybody that lies to helpsomebody cover up a crime like this.
And so to say that, um, in my, in myopinion to say that he had no involvement
or, I don't know, I can't say that right,because piece of shit's a liar in my book.

(52:16):
So he's a piece of shit.
So, but nothing ever came outthat he was involved in the
murder or anything like that.
I happen to believe that he wasattempting to cover it up and just
was too dumb and got caught at it.
And then once he was trapped,he had nowhere, nowhere else to

(52:37):
turn except to testify againsthis piece of shit, brother.
So, so the next one that wegotta talk about is Brenda.
I don't know, I don'tknow how to say this.
I know how I'm going to say it, but Idon't know that the correct way to say it.
So this bitch's last name is PUPI.

(52:59):
So I'm sure it's not poopy, butthat's how I'm going to say it

Angela (53:05):
had a feeling.

John (53:06):
Although,

Angela (53:07):
you know, it might be, you never know.

John (53:10):
Although I have, as you well know, we have a pretty hard and fest rule that
we don't attack, like, you know, familiesof somebody that did something wrong.
But just like Donnie, this woman'sa bitch man, and I'll tell you why.
So Brenda poopy, please tell us whyis the mother of James Van Callis
Jr. And she has remained an arcticdefender of her son's innocence,

(53:35):
speaking publicly and emotionally abouther belief that James was framed by
the police and wrongfully convicted.
So I'm all about standingfor your kids and hey.
I haven't been put in a situation, thankGod that, you know, my kids were convicted
of a horrible crime like this or whatever.

(53:56):
And I cannot stand injudgment over a parent Yeah.
That says, you know, we'regonna still support our son,
our daughter, or whatever.
We'll put money on their books at prison.
We'll go visit 'em.
Hey, that's between you and them.
And I, I got nothing to say.
The right, you know, the act of justdisowning your child and walking away

(54:18):
is easy to say, but very hard to do.
And so, mm-hmm.
I, I don't, that is notwhy I'm criticizing her.
I'm criticizing her because of herjust absolute denial of reality.
Um, she, I mean, sheasserted multiple times.
My son was framed.

(54:39):
I believe it with all my heart.
I'll put my hand to God thatthese officers framed my son,
because they had to get somebody,they had to nail somebody.
They had to have somebody.
The people wanted someone.
I mean, I've heard thisstory freaking so many times.
It's insane.
But in this case, it is so beyondreality that I, I don't know.

(55:02):
So she frequently challengedthe prosecutor's case, arguing
that the evidence was falsified.
Police had made errors.
The defense for her son wasinadequate, just everything.
And then Brenda was heard shouting wordsof encouragement and love to James as
he was let out of the courtroom saying,we love you and we promise to fight

(55:24):
for your release forever and whatever.
Again, I'm not attackingher for loving her son.
Right.
I'm just attacking her for being socompletely out of touch with what
the victim and the victim's families.
Yeah, and I mean, it's just absurd.
Well, you get on with the rest of thefamily, you're gonna understand why.

(55:46):
Just, I don't care foranybody in this whole bunch.
'cause they're all, abunch of shitheads come.
So she did say that.
If it's the last thing I'll do, I'm gonnaget my son out vowing to continue efforts
for her son's freedom despite his eventualconviction and overwhelming circumstantial

(56:08):
evidence that was presented.
Which

Angela (56:10):
she still doesn't

John (56:10):
believe.
No, she doesn't believe any of it.
She's, yeah,

Angela (56:12):
they created, she had

John (56:13):
absolute denial about any of this.

Angela (56:17):
I'm a mom too, but come on mom.

John (56:21):
Yeah, it's, it's insane.
And so, and you know, the otherthing about this is we are, again,
we're in arm Maida, teeny tiny Yeah.
Teeny tiny little town.
We talked about, you told us allabout it in the first episode.
I mean, this is a tiny little town.
Yeah.
When you see this motorcycle and thisdouche bag all dressed up in it and

(56:45):
everything, and then you see it onthe surveillance cameras and stuff.
I mean, yeah.
You gotta be pretty freaking out intouch with reality to not be like,

Angela (56:55):
there's hundreds of people who look like that.

John (56:57):
Yeah.
It's, it's insane.
Yeah.
So, but she just flat out dismissedthe circumstantial evidence in
whole, and she basically said, sincethere's no DNA no fingerprints,
there's no forensic evidence.
Right.
Then James is being franked.
Right.

(57:17):
I mean, whatever I. I don't, again, Ido not fault a mother for sticking up
for her son and being there for himand all that kinda stuff, but being
so out of touch with reality that youdefend an obvious brutal murderer that

(57:38):
is a different subject altogether.
And I mean, there's been multiple,multiple, multiple freaking parents
of murderers that have lovedand supported their children.
I mean, Jeffrey Dahmer's dad is aperfect example of somebody that mm-hmm.
You know, he, he did, he's lovedhis son and whatever, supported

(58:00):
him, but also spoke about thevileness of his actions and Right.
He knew he needed to be punishedfor the shit that he did.
And there was also that guy that, um.
He was an arsonist in California,and I think he was in California.
Anyway, he had burned all kindsof these buildings down and
ended up killing a few people.

(58:20):
And his poor freaking dad, man, um,

Angela (58:24):
Arizona.

John (58:25):
Was it Arizona?

Angela (58:26):
I feel like it was Arizona.

John (58:29):
But you know his dad?

Angela (58:30):
No, wait, that was, nevermind.

John (58:32):
His dad turned him in.
Mm-hmm.
And, but then loved him, but couldn'tpart, you know, couldn't support this.
I mean, he, yeah, he still visited him.
He still prayed for him.
He still, you can love him.
Talk to him.
You

Angela (58:46):
don't have to condone it.
He

John (58:47):
had to be punished for what he did.
I mean, that's the reality.
Next, next we get the joy oftalking about this piece of shit's.
Piece of shit.
Father.
Oh, joy.
A guy by the name of James VanCallus Sr. And I'm assuming the
apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

(59:09):
Oh, you have no idea.
Well

Angela (59:11):
enlighten me.

John (59:12):
So this piece of shit lived with his son in Wells Township, Michigan, which
is roughly 15 miles away from Armada.
And at the time of the investigation,this piece of shit was 66 years old
and he shared the home with his sonand then other members of their family.
I'm not entirely sure who was all inthis white trash freaking whacked out

(59:34):
relationship these ass heads had going.
But sorry, you're painting a picture.
I mean, yeah, it is.
It is.
That picture, like when I callthis these, a bunch of back
boys white trash pieces of shit.
I mean it obviously the addressto this house become a focal point

(59:56):
for the murder investigation.
This is also the brilliance of thesebunch of freaking redneck assholes.
They're growing pot in thebackyard, which was not legal.
And so cops needed a search warrant, sothey just went and looked in the backyard.
There's all these freaking pot plants, andso they're like, oh, we go search here.

(01:00:19):
Yeah, stone for pot, and then we can geta freaking search warrant for the pot,
which is exactly what they ended up doing.
When I say that James Van Calles Sris a pile of shit, I don't just throw
a pile of shit out there randomly.
Not this time, at least I don'tthink any time, but I go from

(01:00:39):
a very good reason this time.
So James Van Calles Sr. Okay.
Is a registered sex offender.
Oh, joy.
This piece of shit was convictedof two counts of criminal
sexual misconduct in 1995.
One charge was a second degree offenseinvolving a child under the age of 13.

(01:01:02):
The other was a fourth degree offensewith a victim between 13 and 16.
So yeah, class, A pile of shit and no,the asshole don't fall far from the tree.
So both he and his son obviously hadcriminal background backgrounds and the

Angela (01:01:22):
taste for the same age and girls.

John (01:01:25):
Yeah.
And we will find out thatJames, it was just like daddy,

Angela (01:01:31):
wonderful.

John (01:01:32):
Junior, had been previously convicted of break it breaking and
entering and failing to pay child support.
Senior on July 30th, 2014.
The police executed thatsearch warrant, which I told
you that they got from mm-hmm.
The pot plants in the back.
I don't understand like all ofthe, I don't understand all the

(01:01:55):
marijuana laws, how all that shitworks, because I've never like grown
marijuana or anything like that.
So.
I'm a supporter of legalizedmarijuana for the record.
Okay.
But I just don't pay anyattention to that shit.
So, but apparently in Michigan,at least at this time, if I

(01:02:17):
think he had to be licensed, andJames did have a licensed junior.
Junior had a license, but his licensewas for 36 plants and they had 52 plants.
Oh.
Which led to the arrests of both juniorand senior and charged them initially

(01:02:38):
on the drug charges, which led to.
The availability or the possibility ofgetting a search warrant, which then
led to all the rest of this stuff.
So both men were arraigned and held on$75,000 bail each and at arraignment,
senior pleaded emotionally to thejudge about wanting to go home and care

(01:02:59):
for his dog, saying, I love my dogs.
I just want to go home to my dogs.
I didn't do nothing.
Well, first of all, this piece ofshit freaking raped a little girl
younger than 13 and a and a littlegirl that's younger than 16, I
don't give a shit what the ages are.

Angela (01:03:18):
Yeah.

John (01:03:19):
And I don't, I don't give a shit about the specifics.
Because he was sexuallyinvolved with children.
He raped them.
This guy, this piece of shit shouldn'thave even been out to have dogs.
No.
At all.
So I can give a shit less about hissob story about his dogs or whatever.
The judge didn't give a shit either.
But authorities did clarify that thedrug arrests were initially separate

(01:03:42):
from the homicide investigation,but the search and the subsequent
arrest intensified suspicionregarding the family's involvement.
And I mean, let's be honest, I get it.
They needed a search warrant.
They see a bunch of freaking pot plants.
Yeah.
In the backyard.
They're gonna take, they'regonna freaking jump off.
Shit.
My bulb.

(01:04:02):
Because by the time thesemarijuana arrests occurred,
he was the number one suspect.
Yeah.
They, they pretty much knew thispiece of shit had done it, and
they were just hoping to prove it.
Right.
So, I mean, I don't know really how,how cops in this little town are.
Um, where did I say it was?
I don't even remember.

(01:04:23):
Um, Wales Township, Michigan.
I don't really know.
I suspect that, um, in a statewhere marijuana is at least,
uh, medically legal mm-hmm.
I don't know.
Again, I don't know.
I don't give a shit, but I suspect it'sprobably like most states where they're
not going and counting pot plantsin somebody's backyard unless Yeah.

(01:04:44):
They're trying to get theson bitch and they, unless

Angela (01:04:47):
it's a technicality, then yeah,

John (01:04:49):
they, then it gives them a good reason.
So investigators harbor suspicions aboutthe Van Callas family as a whole, which
hopefully the rest, a bunch of winnerstrying to freak are starting to understand
it the same way that I do and be like,yeah, I would suspect this bunch of
white trash freaking hillbillies too.

(01:05:09):
Obviously James senior's history is being.
A sex offender, ablyconvicted sex offender.
I might add parallel this, the sexualmotive component of April's murder.
And then during the initial search ofthe family home, James Jr. Reportedly,
remarked quote, everything helearned, he learned from his father

(01:05:33):
end quote, which maybe self, youknow, but that's no freaking excuse,

Angela (01:05:39):
right?
My dad did it.
So

John (01:05:42):
what's wrong with me?
Your dad had to piece shit so you havea free pass to be of piece of shit.
Nah, that's not how that works.
There are a lot of children that havegrown up in way worse situations than
this piece of shit did that grew upand went on to become amazing human
beings that help people not murder.
Yeah.
14-year-old little girls.

(01:06:03):
So

Angela (01:06:03):
IE Keith Jes person's daughter.

John (01:06:05):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean.
There are, there's all kinds ofpeople that grew up just terribly,
terribly, terribly abused.
And, um, one of the girls that wasin that house in Ohio, I can never
remember that piece of shit's name,but where the, they were kept captive

(01:06:25):
in his basement for like 10 years.
Oh yeah.
One of those girls went on and she,um, she runs an animal rescue mm-hmm.
Where she takes in animals and, youknow, rescues don't get some healthy,
does all that kinda stuff, you know, Imean, there's some people that've gone
through some horrendous shit that therest of us can't even begin to imagine.

(01:06:49):
Yeah.
Um, and they went on tobe wonderful human beings.
So this is no excuse, butanyway, that's what he said.
Daddy did it.
It is all daddy's fault, but.
It definitely deepened the investigator'sconcerns about the whole dynamic
of that whole freaking weird asshousehold, which I can understand that.

(01:07:13):
As it turns out, senior was sentencedfor marijuana manufacturing and
received a one year jail termwith credit for time served.
He was not named a formal suspect in AprilMillsap's homicide, but his house was the
central to the investigation and becameassociated with the public perception with

(01:07:35):
the crime due to revelations about hiscriminal record and the police search.
So he became very unpopularvery, very quickly.
Well, I don't know that he was all thatpopular beforehand, but after all this
shit got out, definitely not so cue

Angela (01:07:54):
the

John (01:07:55):
violins.
Right?
I mean, I think that itbehooves us a little bit.
At least discuss the Van Calles householdwhen all these pieces of shit were young.
Um, and in no way is it because itgives them any kind of an excuse,
but it's, we've run a true crab.

(01:08:16):
It's just good to know.
It's good to talk about this shit, right?
So.

Angela (01:08:19):
It's making opinions with all of the information.

John (01:08:22):
Right.
Talking about their childhood years.
So Ja James Jr. Grew up in our MEAnot too far from the trail where April
Millsap was later murdered, and heattended our MEA areas schools from
kindergarten through at least 10th grade,and reportedly went to the same middle

(01:08:43):
school that April Mill South would laterattend, although obviously years apart.
Well, yeah.
James Junior was described as atroubled student accumulating only
three credits in two years of highschool, spending much of his time
suspended and eventually dropping out.
Oh yeah.
Reports of those who knew him growing up,describe him as someone who frequently

(01:09:07):
got into trouble and he had a volatile,sometimes aggressive temperament.
None of this is a shock or asurprise considering what this
piece of shit would go on to do.
But he spent time living on a farm nearthe area, contributing to his familiarity
with the local terrain, including theorchard Trail, where the murder occurred.

(01:09:28):
Um, obviously his brother Donniesometimes lives separately,
but remain in close contact.
I mean, the whole fa their wholechildhood is just, it is just
all over the freaking place.
Yeah.
I mean, you can just tell whenI call them white trash pieces
of shit, it's really seems likethey're white trash pieces of shit.
You know, like, uh, parents don'treally give a shit if they go to school.

(01:09:51):
Don't go to school, right.
Kid, you want whatever.
It was noted that the Van Cs familywas not highly regarded locally.
Um, obviously at least part of this.
And I would say that a lot ofit was probably due to Pops
being a freaking pervert.
And being convicted of raping littlegirls and then junior being a piece of

(01:10:15):
shit that's always freaking in trouble,always getting into all kinds of shit.
So I, I mean we all had these kind ofpeople maybe, hopefully not that grew
up to do awful stuff like this, right?
But we all had these kind of kids wheretheir household was a freaking mess.
They were a freaking mess.
I mean, we can probably say here,name 20 of them between the two of us.

(01:10:38):
Yeah.
The listeners can all rattle off fiveor 10 that they went to school with that
were in the same kind of POS position.
And you know, it's sad for little.
Van Calles Jr. Mm-hmm.
I don't give a shit about growing upVan Calles Jr. But I don't want any kids
to grow up in a household where there'sthis kinda stuff going on, you know?

(01:11:01):
Yeah.
And you know, I mean, with a dadthat's a freaking pervert and who
knows what was going on at home.
Like, again, it's not an excuse, butwhen you separate the the child version
from the adult version, you have tohave sympathy for the child, what they
were going through, you know, at home.
But neighbors and sources describe thehome as both physically and emotionally,

(01:11:26):
and internally chaotic, which reflectsthe instability and the isolation that's
often associated with troubled households.
Mm-hmm.
So as adults, both juniorand senior, continued to have
issues with law enforcement.
Notably in drug related cases and propertycrimes, James Jr. Exhibited abusive and

(01:11:50):
controlling behavior with his romanticpartners, um, restricting access to basic
amenities, not letting them have theircell phones, not letting them have jobs.
His girlfriend, crystal, uh, Stadler,which we'll be talking about because she
was his girlfriend at the time of themurder, but she described the household

(01:12:11):
as tense, oppressive, and marked by fear.
You know, the Van Callas householdin general was uncooperative
with law enforcement, right?
Uh, they, I mean, theyweren't standup people.
Yeah.
That's just all there was to it.
And so they lived in what was describedas a mansion, although poorly maintained

(01:12:36):
in Wells Township about 15 milesagain, from our MEDA at the time.
I mean, it's kinda like hisadult life just continued on with
the chaos of his younger life.
So the household often included, andI can, you can't say like all these
people lived there because it waskind of, it was a revolving door of

(01:12:57):
a ENC kind of existence, you know?
So, but often it would be James Jr.His father, James s and his then
girlfriend, crystal Stadler, theiryoung son, and sometimes Brother
Donnie would be living there.
So only half of the house hadworking electricity from the grid.

(01:13:19):
The rest, including the suite,quote unquote, used by James Jr. And
Crystal was powered by a generator,solely controlled by James Jr.
Who restricted access if youdidn't do what he told you.
Oh, he's the kind of piece of shitthat one of those would tell his

(01:13:39):
girlfriend, you know, you're eithergonna do X, Y, Z, or I'm gonna shut the
generator off and you can't have power.
Right.
You know, he punisheshis significant others.
He's a just a totalpiece of shit, obviously.
You know, on the other hand, uh,for the house we have a convicted,
freaking perverted child rapist.

(01:14:00):
The household structurefostered, no doubt about that.
A sense of distrust.

Angela (01:14:05):
Right.

John (01:14:05):
Um, I mean, it's

Angela (01:14:06):
just a lot of morals working in this house.

John (01:14:10):
Yes.

Angela (01:14:10):
Yeah.

John (01:14:10):
I mean, it is the definition of dysfunction.
Everything about these people,they're just pieces of shit.
So then we gotta talk aboutthe girlfriend Crystal.
Crystal Stadler.
And so she was the girlfriendat the time of the arrest.

(01:14:31):
And her and her and Van Calleshad dated on and off for about
nine years at, at this point.
Oh.
And they had a young son together.
And like I said, they were livingtogether at the Van Calles shit
hole at the time of April's murder.
And their relationship,again, was tumultuous.

(01:14:52):
It was punctuated by breakups,reconciliation, significant
dysfunction, I mean.
I think we all know these people too.
Oh yeah.
Where you're like, just freakingget the hell away from each other.
Yeah.
Stay away from each other.
Everybody would be happier.

Angela (01:15:07):
You're toxic.

John (01:15:09):
But at one point, Stadler had a child with someone else during
one of the breakups from Van Callas.
It's like involved on this side ofthis case is like dysfunction junction.
It is.
How else do you describe itabout white trash bullshit?

(01:15:29):
Because that's pretty much what I mean,it's reads like a white trash manual.
Yeah.
So wait,

Angela (01:15:35):
they have those?

John (01:15:37):
I think they must.
Okay.
I don't know how theyall do the same things.
If not, there has to be likea school they graduate from.
Once they drop outta high school,white trash school, this is
how you become a piece of shit.
Now I will say, I'm notgonna bad mouth crystal.
She obviously made some poor choices,but the choices that she's gonna make

(01:15:58):
are gonna help the investigation andso she gets a kudos from me for that.
Okay.
She would describe Van Callusas both abusive and controlling.
Right.
Like I said, not allowing herto have access to a phone or a
car controlled the generator.
So she wasn't allowed to have powerand she would recount episodes of

(01:16:19):
intimidation threats, includingtelling her that he would quote.
Bring her down with him.
If she talked about this, she would saythat the majority of their years together
were quote unquote, not harmonious.
And that she was a victim of domesticviolence during their relationship,

(01:16:40):
which I wholeheartedly believe her andI, and I'll say that because of this.
So she originally, when thecops went and talked to her and
everything, piece of shit was home.
So the cop wait

Angela (01:16:53):
piece of shit, senior piece of shit, junior.

John (01:16:55):
So confusing, isn't it?
Piece of shit.
Junior was home.
And so the cops came and theyoriginally questioned him and
everything, and he said, and theysaid, you know, can we have your shoes
that you were wearing on that day?
And so he was like, of course.
And he hands over his shoes, thecops take 'em and they leave.

(01:17:15):
Crystal at that time was saying, um,basically giving him an alibi, you know?
Mm-hmm.
No, he.
He had nothing to do with thisn blah, blah, blah, because

Angela (01:17:24):
he was there controlling her,

John (01:17:26):
right?
Yeah.
And I, and we can say that becauseonce he gets arrested on the
marijuana thing, he's in jail, she's

Angela (01:17:33):
safe enough to talk.

John (01:17:34):
She calls the cops and she says, I gotta talk to you.

Angela (01:17:39):
Mm-hmm.

John (01:17:39):
And so then she goes and tells him, and she says, you know,
those shoes that he gave you?
Well, those are not the shoes thathe was wearing because when he came
home, he took his shoes off and hewas like bleaching them and scrubbing
'em and all of this kinda stuff.
And then he ended up like, Ithink he threw away or burned

(01:18:00):
him or some shit like that.
So if we remember little Aprilhad the imprint of the air logo.
Yeah.
Airman logo on her.
Well, when the cops said, well, whatkinda shoes was, was he wearing?
She said.
Nike Air Jordans.

(01:18:20):
And then Although the shoes,although the shoes were gone.
Yeah.
She pulls up a Facebook picture,actually several Facebook pictures of
that piece of shit wearing those shoes.
So Shoe was able to show thatindeed he did own a par of them.

(01:18:40):
Mm-hmm.
And then she would later go on to say thaton the night of April's murder, he came
home acting, quote unquote acting weird.
And again, what should she tell?
Right?
He came home actinglike a white trash kit.
So, but she found him cleaninghis shoes with hand sanitizer,

(01:19:03):
which she had never seen him do.
Right.
Obviously not something that's done a lot.
She discovered wadded up hair andgrass in his car for hoodie and.
Was told to wash it andthen both the hoodie and the
shoes would later disappear.
Um,

Angela (01:19:20):
but he made

John (01:19:20):
her an

Angela (01:19:20):
accomplice,

John (01:19:22):
essentially.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Or that's what he was attempting to do?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So Van Calles instructed everyone,including Stadler to lie about his
footwear, telling them to say that hewore K Swiss shoes, not the distinctive
Nike or Jordans, which again, wouldn'tmatch the footprints that we know, right.

(01:19:43):
Are from April's body.
And Van Calles would tellher quote, I messed up.
I need you to stand by my side, quote,a statement that Stadler interpreted as
a confession and sounds like it to me.
Sure.
Sounds like it to me too.
And then again, she had later pullup that picture on Facebook and be

(01:20:04):
like, no, I'm telling you the truth.
This piece of shit has these shoes.
They were black and white.
Here's a picture of a man and.
She, um, testified that she oncehad an affair, quote unquote, had
an affair during a breakup in theirlong relationship, which just further
illustrates this on, and yeah, chaoticfreaking horrible freaking relationship.

(01:20:32):
But the prosecutors and the juryfound her testimony to be sincere
and credible, and I did too.
I mean, I watched her testimony.
I gotta say I, my heartreally went out to this girl.
You know, she obviously had some badtasting guys, but this poor girl was
just a, she was a batter girlfriend.

(01:20:52):
I mean, she was in a position where,and I would even, I would even probably
go so far as to say, I think the vastmajority of women in her position don't,
wouldn't have the constitution to.
Steven stepped forwardonce he was arrested.

(01:21:12):
Yeah.
And I'm not faulting them for itbecause they're in so much fear Yeah.
Of their abusive partner.
Mm-hmm.
That they're just terrified that even ifthey go to the police, that they're not
gonna get convicted and then they're gonnaget out and kill 'em, beat 'em, hurt 'em,
whatever, send somebody else to do it.
Right.
And so I'm not at all criticizing thosewomen when I say that, but what I am

(01:21:34):
doing is really giving her kudos mm-hmm.
For just stepping up andbeing like, I don't know.
This is my one chance to getrid of this piece of shit.
Yeah.
Or I really need to do this becauseit's the right thing to do or whatever.
Us

Angela (01:21:48):
or not going down with him.

John (01:21:50):
Yeah.
Whatever it was.
Hats off tour for freakinghaving the gumption and the guts
the hole in my lip to do it.
So initially she was present during vancall's, initial interview with police.
And you know, like I said, she,she kind of evaded the questions,

(01:22:10):
stayed silent as much as she could,but it was out of fear of him.
Right.
And then she would later becomea crucial prosecution witness
revealing that she was living withVan Calles at the time of the murder.
She testified that he came home actingweird, all the stuff that we talked about.
And if it wouldn't have been for her, Idon't think he would've been convicted.

(01:22:35):
Her testimony was that huge and.
She said he told everybody to lie.
She talked about his admission toher with, when you say I messed
up, I think that's pretty telling.
Yeah.
So at the end of the day, she really getsthe kudos from me, which I've made clear.

(01:22:56):
But you know, I feel, I feel really badfor women in those situations anyway.
Mm-hmm.
But you know, when they're braveenough to take the opportunity to
break those bounds and, and handthis family justice, then I think she
deserves a little extra kudos for that.

(01:23:18):
Right.
So obviously Vin Calles de,or told the police that he was
wearing the K Swiss tennis shoes.
Crystal testified that he was wearingthe black and white Air Jordans.
Then they, I don't know how they,I, I mean, to me shoes look like
freaking shoes, but to like the, theshoe people at the FBI and police,
I don't know the shoe people washis own freaking deal or whatever.

(01:23:41):
So they actually like get aholdof Nike and give 'em this Facebook
picture of these shoes, right.
Order the exact same shoein the same size, basically.
They get that shoe so they can reconstructand then they, yeah, they compare it to
her wounds and all of that kinda stuff.
And it was a perfect match tothe, to the wounds and everything.

(01:24:07):
And then we already talked about,you know, that April had bruising on
her face, which was consistent withthe contours of a motorcycle helmet.
And investigators seized his helmet,which appeared recently scrubbed though
they couldn't recover any DNA, but thecombination of the forensic alignment

(01:24:28):
and the suspicious cleaning supports.
Yeah.
Theory that the helmetwas used as a weapon.
And then, you know, we talked aboutthe, the sweatshirt and all of that
kinda stuff that, that came up.
And then the search of van call's computeruncovered, disturbing material and it

(01:24:51):
was searches like it was shit like, andI, I think I have it in the next episode
where I have the direct quotes of it andeverything, but it was shit like, how does
an older guy get a young girl to like him?
That kinda shit.
Like he was basicallypursuing, trying to teach

Angela (01:25:10):
himself how to groom.

John (01:25:12):
Yeah.
I mean, he was following indad's footsteps basically.
He was sexually attracted tolittle girls, and he was attempting
to get in a relationship oldunquote, with a little girl.
I mean, obviously that reallydisplays pretty much exactly what

(01:25:32):
I think happened in this crime.
Yeah.
What I think investigatorsbelieve happened in this crime.
I mean, he pulled up next tothis little 14-year-old girl,
tried to put the moves on her.
She was creeped out by his freakingnasty ass and was like, you know,
get away from me creeped, and he gotpissed off and beat her to death.

(01:25:53):
That's what happened.
I have no doubt that's what happened.

Angela (01:25:57):
Yeah, sure.
Feels like it.

John (01:25:58):
And so, you know, I mean, just, I don't know.
It's just, yeah, yeah,

Angela (01:26:04):
yeah.
That's, that's the right, mm-hmm.

John (01:26:07):
Obviously, individually.
All those pieces of evidencethat we talked about.
You know, you got the, the computerforensics show that he's obviously
a freaking sick, pervertedpedophile, just like daddy.
Yeah.
We've got the hoodie, we'vegot the shoes that disappeared.
We've got the odd behavior.
We got him telling Crystal that he madea mistake or he screwed up or whatever.

(01:26:30):
We've got the helmet evidence, wegot the motorcycle, we have him
matching the description individually.
None of those reallymean a whole lot, right.
I mean, you know, you can't say,well, some down a motorcycle was seen.
He has a motorcycle.
He's the guy.
Yeah.
And you can't say, oh, you know, wellhe has a motorcycle helmet and she

(01:26:55):
was hit with a motorcycle helmet.
He's the guy.
You can't say, oh, there's a Facebookpicture of him wearing Nike or Jordans.
He's the guy, he's the, yeah.
And you can go all throughthose individually.
You could say the same thing,like none of them mean shit.
But when you put all of those together,they really start painting a pretty
clear picture of a piece of shit thatbeat this poor little girl to death.

(01:27:21):
Right.
But you know, if we're talkingabout that, then we also have
to talk about the limitations.
And this again, wasn't that long ago.
This is 2014.
So this is the day andage of DNA of, yeah.
Forensic science.
This is well after CSI, you know,which really has driven a lot

(01:27:44):
of that, as funny as it sounds.
But you know, I mean, wesit juries now that expect.
DNA and forensic evidence.
Yeah, it's huge.
Prosecutors have a really hardtime getting a conviction in
cases that would've sailed toconviction 30 or 40 years ago.
Yeah.

(01:28:04):
Now, without forensic evidence, theyhave a really hard time proving guilt.
I, for one, happen tothink nine times outta 10.
That's a good thing,but it is a limitation.
In this case, the crime scene onthe Macomb Orchard Trail just didn't
yield very many forensic clues.

(01:28:24):
April's body showed the signs ofDrake Marks, uh, being pulled off
the path, but there was no foreignDNA that was recovered blooded.
The scene all matched.
April, there was the shoeimpressions, but they're very limited.
And if, if officers were able to do, todo the search warrant and find the shoes.

(01:28:46):
That's a different story becauseyou can most certainly identify
one particular pair of shoes Yeah.
As to all of them in that brand.
But the shoes were gone.
So they didn't have that.
They had no DNA evidence,they had no smoking gun.
They had no, you know,obvious murder weapon.

(01:29:07):
I mean, he stomped the girl to death.
Yeah.
The, there's no ballistics on that.

Angela (01:29:12):
Yeah.

John (01:29:13):
And the foot impressions would've been the only one.
And he got rid of the shoes.
So they were left to buildthis circumstantial case.
And, and again, in this agewhere forensics rule that
they, they didn't have it.
So they were left having tobuild the circumstantial case
and to overcome these gaps.

(01:29:35):
Investigators were gonna have to lean veryheavily on the eyewitness testimony that
consistently placed Van Callus with April.
They're gonna have to rely veryheavily on the sports tracker app
data, the phone records that mapsthe struggle, that death, the
phone taking off on the motorcycle.

(01:29:56):
Yep.
The video of him, you know?
Right.
Just past where he threw the cell phone orwhere the cell phone would be later found
his trail, you know, matching all of that.
The, the bravery of the abused girlfriend.
Exactly.
Yeah.
The, the cell tower records, whichcompletely blew his alibi apart, his
brother's bullshit coming apart at theseams and all of the behavioral red flags

(01:30:22):
and incriminating searches like, uh,the shit that was found on his computer.
Again, all on its own.
That indicates a freakingsick ass pedophile.
Yeah.
But doesn't necessarily meanthat he killed this shoulder.
Killed, yeah.
But taken all together this,they're building a pretty
strong circumstantial case.

(01:30:44):
Yeah.
So in the next episode, we'll be talkinga lot more about that and the trial
and all of that kinda stuff as, aswe continue to move through this arc.
So
it started as a shadow, a bluron a bike, tearing down a trail
where no engine should have beenat first, that's all it was.

(01:31:08):
Rumor fragments, pieces ofmemory from people who weren't
even sure what they'd seen.
But as the investigationgrew, the shadow gained shape.
And then a name, witness statements,digital tracking, behavioral red flags.
They all began pointing in one direction.

(01:31:30):
The man on the dirt bikewasn't just a coincidence.
He was there at the trail at thetime April was killed, and the
more investigators looked at him,the more the story cracked open.
But suspicion and proof aretwo very different things.
Detectives had to fight throughnoise, false tips, half truths,

(01:31:54):
and the desperate guesses of acommunity that wanted answers.
Yesterday arm Meda hadbecome a town on the edge.
Every dirt bike in the countywas suddenly suspicious.
Every stranger walking alone was watched.
The public wanted a name.
The media wanted a face.

(01:32:14):
But law enforcement knew thata single misstep, a premature
accusation, could destroy the case.
As one detective later said,quote, you don't get a second
chance in a case like this.
You name the wrong man.
You may never recover.
And that tension between a grievingcommunity and cautious investigators

(01:32:38):
became part of April's storywasn't just about finding a killer.
It was about holding theline between rumor and fact.
Meanwhile, the puzzlepieces clicked into place.
April's phone data tracing her desperatewant run, eyewitnesses describing
piercing eyes and an angry stare, ahelmet that left marks on her face, shoes

(01:33:02):
that left their impression on her skin.
A suspect whose story unraveled underthe weight of timestamps and surveillance
at the center of it all was April.
A girl who had texted herboyfriend a chilling warning,
half in jest, but prophetic.
In hindsight, I thinkI almost got kidnapped.

(01:33:26):
O-M-F-G-A girl whose final zigzags on aGPS map became the coordinate of a murder.
A girl who never made it homefrom a simple summer walk with
her dog, the man on the dirtbike, wasn't just rumor anymore.
He was real.
He had a name and thecase was about to change.

(01:33:55):
When someone like April Millsap istaken, it's not just that personal loss.
It's a fracture, a ripple effect thatmoves through classrooms, neighborhoods,
towns, and the entire country.
Her friends didn't just losesomeone they sat next to in class.
They lost the Friday night.

(01:34:15):
Sleepovers whispered.
Secrets about crushes, thehallway laughter between bells.
They lost birthdays where Aprilshould have been singing off key
proms where she should have beendressed up a graduation where her name
should have been called and her mom.
Jennifer's loss cannot.

(01:34:37):
We measured.
She walked that trail hoping for amiracle, and instead founding nightmare.
Quote, my life changed forever.
April was my everything.
Jennifer would later say, but inthe middle of that devastation,

(01:34:57):
something else emerged.
Resilience.
Jennifer refused to let April'sstory be reduced to a headline.
She spoke at vigils remindingthe community she was more
than what happened to her.
She was liked as she was loved.
The town of Armida carried that torch.

(01:35:18):
Students tied pink ribbons to lockers,hundreds gathered for candlelight vigils.
The trail where April walked lined withflowers, crosses and handwritten notes.
One sign Simply RedJustice for April another.
We will not forget.

(01:35:38):
April's story didn't stop at Arm Meda.
It spread far beyond Michigan.
News outlets across the country carriedher photo, a smiling 14-year-old with
a love for animals and a kindness thatdrew people in strangers who never
met her mailed cards, lit candlesin her memory, and followed her case

(01:35:59):
as if she were one of their own.
And that's the thing.
This isn't just because of what happened.
It's because of who it happened to.
April made people feel seen.
She rescued strays and brought them home.
She had dreams of becoming a veterinarian.
She laughed easily, cared deeply,and carried a gentleness that

(01:36:22):
the world often overlooks.
Quote.
She was the type of girl whomade you want to be better.
One classmate would say in a timewhere cruelty often screams louder.
April Millsap's quiet, kindness stillechoes, so we'll keep telling her story.

(01:36:45):
We'll keep saying her name and we'll keephonoring the light that she left behind.
So that wraps up thisepisode of Dark Dialogue.
The Man on the Dirt Bike may have startedas a glory figure in the woods, but with
every witness, every data point, andevery inconsistency, he became more real.

(01:37:10):
And now he has a name,

Angela (01:37:13):
but a name isn't enough.
Building a case meantdigging deeper tracking.
April's digital footprint,confronting a suspect's history.
And connecting the threads.
The killer hoped no one would ever find.
This was the turning point.
The moment April's story beganshifting from mystery to momentum.

John (01:37:32):
If you believe April's story deserves to be heard, here's how
you can help follow the show.
Leave a review, give us a thumbsup and share this episode with
someone who needs to hear it.
Every listen keeps April's name alive.
Every share keeps the pressure on.

Angela (01:37:51):
You can also support our work by subscribing to our
substack, joining us on Patreon orsending a donation through coffee.
It helps us keep these storiesin the spotlight and do the kind
of deep victim-centered workyou won't find anywhere else.

John (01:38:06):
Wanna do more?
Check out our Adoptive Victimprogram where you can help us amplify
cases that still need answers orjoin the Dark Dialogue collective.
Our boots on the ground initiativewith volunteers who believe the
fight for justice never ends.

Angela (01:38:22):
And if you have a case you want us to cover or lead you think we should hear,
email us anytime at info@darkdialogue.com.
We take every message seriously.
We follow up and we never stop looking.

John (01:38:34):
April Millsap mattered.
She still does, and we'll keeptelling her story until there's
nothing left to question.
This has been dark dialogue.
Keep listening, keep searching.
Keep advocating andkeep the dialogue alive.

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The Man on the Dirt Bike – Building the Case

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Man on the Dirt Bike – Building the Case