The Pact of Shadows — The Simon Sue Murders in Guffey, Colorado - Dark Dialogue

Episode Transcript
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John (00:12):
The mountains of Colorado have always carried a kind of duality by day.
They are breathtaking peaks, glowinggold under the autumn sun trails winding
through endless forest where the airsmells of pine and smoke from wood stoves.
But by night, the shadows creepin, stretching across valleys,

(00:34):
swallowing the silence, andreminding those who live there.
That isolation has its dangersout here far from city lights.
The line between safety andmenace can feel paper thin.
In the fall of 2001, the mountaintown of Guffey seemed an ordinary
as a, as any place its size, quiet,self-contained, and the kind of

(00:59):
community where everyone knew everyone.
But beneath that calm exterior, astorm was brewing led not by hardened
criminals or career predators,but by someone far less expected.
A teenager who believed he was destinedto command his own secret army.

(01:19):
His name was Simon Sue.
Sue wasn't content with therole of high school student.
He reinvented himself as a leader, amanipulator, and an architect of fear.
He built what he calledthe Lords of darkness.
A twisted imitation of a clandestineorganization to his classmates.

(01:41):
He promised a sense of belonging, astructure, a hierarchy where loyalty was
demanded, and disobedience was punished.
Some kids laughed it off, treatingit like a strange role playing game.
Others bought into it completely,and that's where the danger began.
In Sue's world, rules weren't suggestions.

(02:03):
They were commands.
And when someone failed him, when someonewas deemed a liability, he didn't just
shrug it off, he ordered consequences.
That's how fantasytransformed into reality.
That's how three teenagers under the cloakof loyalty to their leader, walk into

(02:24):
a cabin outside Guffy one December 9th.
They weren't there for mischief.
They weren't there by chance.
They were on assignment inside that canid.
The air once filled withlaughter, warmth, and.
Family life was soon thick with terror.
The victims had no idea thata web of manipulation had
already sealed their fate.

(02:45):
What happened that night wasn't random.
It was orchestrated step by step by a boywho convinced others to kill in his name.
The murder shocked Colorado to its core.
How could ordinary teenagersbe turned into weapons?
How could a high schooler convince hispeers to carry out acts of brutality

(03:07):
with the coldness of trained soldiers?
And how did a town so small so tuggedaway in the mountains become the
stage for one of the most chilling andsenseless crimes in the state's history?
The answers lie in thetwisted charisma of Simon Sue.
His hold over his friends wasn'tbuilt on strength or violence alone.

(03:28):
It was built on fear, control and theexploitation of adolescent loyalty.
He created a world whereobedience was survival.
Where betrayal was a death sentence,and where the boundaries of morality
were blurred until right and wrong,lost all meaning, and that's what

(03:49):
makes this story so haunting becausethe evil it unfolded in Guffy didn't
come from some faceless monster.
It didn't come from shadows in thewoods or whispers of an urban legend.
It came from inside the classroom,from a pier, from someone who
should have been a fellow studentrather than a self style tyrant.

(04:12):
As we sit here in October, the seasonof long shadows and whispered fears,
the story of the Simon Sue murdersreminds us that sometimes the most
terrifying villains aren't the oneswe imagine hiding under the bed.
Sometimes they're the ones whosit beside us in the cafeteria.
Sometimes they're the ones that wecall friends, and sometimes they're the

(04:36):
ones who turn friendship into a weapon.
Tonight we'll unravel how an idea born outof fantasy spiraled into one of Colorado's
darkest realities and we'll trace howa small mountain town became haunted.
Not by legends, but by the truth.
The devotion twisted into obediencecan be deadlier than any ghost story.

(05:01):
Because in Guffy, Colorado loyalty had aprice, and that price was paid in blood.
Hey, Angela, how's it going today?

Angela (05:18):
I'm so excited to be back here.

John (05:20):
Oh man.
Me too.
You have no freaking idea.

Angela (05:23):
And the creepiness.

John (05:25):
Yep.
And we're continuing on with ourOctober series, even though I pretty
much blew the entire month of October.
I think we're just going tocontinue October into November.

Angela (05:35):
Why not as my birth month.
Why not

John (05:38):
abs?
It's creepy.
You like creepy.
I love it.
So I think we'll take creepy
all the way to Thanksgiving or

Angela (05:43):
Nice.
Something like that.
And I, I'll give thanks for it.
Yeah,

John (05:47):
yeah.
No, I dunno.
Maybe I'll do a Thanksgiving episode.

Angela (05:50):
There's plenty of stuff that's happened on Thanksgiving.

John (05:52):
There's plenty of stuff that happens on every Damn, huh.
I know.
So, yeah, it shouldn't be too hard.
So have you heard of this story?
I have not.
I'm excited.
This is brand new for you?
Yeah,

Angela (06:02):
well the only thing that's not brand new is the location.
'cause of course I did.
I did that one.
But,

John (06:08):
but,

Angela (06:08):
uh, yeah, everything else is, you're gonna get organic responses.
This is a

John (06:13):
freaking crazy dance.
I don't it's anything about this.
It's so strange.
So, well, welcome back listeners.
You're listening to Dark Dialoguewhere we dive into the crimes that
haunt small towns and big cities alike.
I'm your host, John, and I'm Angela.

Angela (06:27):
And as John knows, October is my favorite, one of
my favorite times of the year.
The nights get darker, the storiesget creepier, and it just feels right
to lean into these haunting cases.
And John is letting us do it.
It

John (06:42):
does.
Oh, right.
It's night's case.
It's chilling enough on its own.
A word looking at the Simon Suemurders in Guffey, Colorado, a story of
manipulation, loyalty gone wrong, anda so-called organization that blurred
the line between fantasy and horror.

Angela (07:01):
But before we dive in, we need to ask one thing of our listeners.
If you're listening on YouTube, hitthat thumbs up, subscribe and tap the
bell so you don't miss future episodes.

John (07:12):
And if you're with us on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify,
please leave a rating and review.
It only takes a second, but it helpsmore than you could possibly know.

Angela (07:23):
And of course, share this episode with a friend who loves
true crime or creepy like me, right?
Don't share it with me 'causeI'm already subscribed to us.

John (07:32):
Better be I

Angela (07:33):
am.
Spread the word and keepthe dialogue growing.

John (07:37):
Alright, Angela, so let's get into this.
I think that you have some stuffto tell us about where we're
heading tonight, don't you?
Not a lot because it's shiny

Angela (07:47):
small.
So I usually try to talk a littlebit before jumping right into the
census reporting for a location.
However, from what I found, GuffyColorado is now home to less
residents than my neighborhood.

John (08:03):
I firmly believe that.

Angela (08:04):
Yeah.
So while there are no officialcensus records for Guffy, a reported
500 people were in the area duringthe mining boom of the late 1890s.
I said it right this time.
You did 1890s and early 19 hundredssince this reporter.org sites
that in 2010 there were 98 people.

John (08:26):
Yeah, that sounds about right.

Angela (08:27):
Gets worse.
It climbed to 111 people by2020, but by 2023, a reported 29
residents all over the age of 60.
Mind you, they, they were specificabout that called Guffy Home.

John (08:43):
Yeah.

Angela (08:44):
29 residents.

John (08:47):
Yeah, it's crazy.

Angela (08:48):
Yeah, that's a little too small for me.
And I'm a small town girl.

John (08:52):
That's about right for me.

Angela (08:53):
Yeah, just about it is just about right for you.
Yeah.
So this area was once referred toas freshwater for the freshwater
mining district that minedmainly copper lead and zinc.
James McClure.
Guffy was a prominent figurein that endeavor and eventually
the area was named in his honor.
Aside from the story we'll bediscussing today, at least, I don't

(09:16):
think John intends to tell theseinteresting morsels of information.
I have two unique items to touch on.
I don't think regarding this area,

John (09:23):
I don't think I'm gonna be telling either, just because I
didn't know anything about 'em.

Angela (09:26):
The first, in 1907, a 681 pound meteorite was found near Guffy, and to
date is the largest recovered in Colorado.
That's

John (09:34):
a freaking big one.

Angela (09:36):
Yeah.
Most of it.
What I read is in New York, butDenver did get a slice of it.
Yeah, for a museum.
Yeah, just a slice.
Of course it's found in Colorado,but they only get a slice of it.
Of course.
So the second and perhaps mostlikable for the town, they have
named Unofficial Animal MAs Animal.

John (09:57):
Oh, really?
Four years.
Interesting.

Angela (10:00):
The current is a cat named Monster, and he is considered a
good mare as no one has ever runagainst him, but they have had dogs.
I believe there was alizard and other cats.

John (10:14):
Very interesting.
Yeah.

Angela (10:15):
I was excited to read that.
It was interesting.
According to a website, I foundas of November 20, 24, so almost a
year ago, quote, monster is showinghis age a bit, but doing fine.

John (10:27):
Well, that's good to know.

Angela (10:28):
Yes.
Long Live

John (10:30):
Monster.
Long Live monster.
Absolutely.

Angela (10:34):
So John will tell us this creepy story now.

John (10:37):
Alright, well let's get into it then.
Bring it.
So nestled high in the Rockies aboveGuffy, Colorado, the Dutcher family's
homes stood against a backdropwhere Pine Forest met cold starlet
skies, remote, rugged, and quiet.
This mountain community was thekind of place where neighbors

(10:57):
were few, like you alluded to, 29.
But friendships ran deep and everywinding dirt road carried the hush of
winter for Carl and Joanna Dutcher.
This wild setting was more than scenery.
It was a way of life.
Years earlier, they'd left the flatlandsof Kansas searching for open horizons

(11:20):
and settled in a modest trailertucked into the bear trap subdivision.
Their days were shaped byroutine and resilience.
Carl, disciplined and resourcefulfrom years in Vietnam and government
work kept the land and the skillsthat rural living demanded.
Joanna balanced part-time work at alocal shop with the gentle rhythms of

(11:41):
home tending with patience and humorto anyone who crossed her threshold.
Their love story colored everything intheir world, A marriage growing from
childhood friendship enduring againstthe isolation of mountain winters
and the quirks of rural existence.
Carl's quiet strength in Joanna'swarmth became anchors for their

(12:02):
family and their little home at refugewhere loyalty and trust took root.
Each holiday season brought theirgrandson Tony, into this fold.
15 years old, fresh-faced,and full of ambition.
Tony's connection to Colorado ran deep.
He'd grown up in Colorado Springs, butrelished every chance to escape into the

(12:24):
wild acres of his grandparents' world.
Even as a high school student,Tony blended city smarts with
the thrill of mountain adventure.
He loved the deep hush of snowy woods.
The challenge of building forts in thehillside and the simple pleasure of board
games spread across a kitchen table.
What set Tony apart was a fierce loyaltyto his friends, especially his best

(12:49):
friend from junior high, Isaac Grimes.
Together they were explorers and dreamersinventing military scenarios, strategizing
over imaginary missions, and spendinglong hours outside testing their plans
against the rugged Colorado landscape.
The pair often dreamed of futureswhere they were not just observers,

(13:11):
but secret agents living out adventuresinspired by the nature that surrounded
them within the Dutchess Mountain Home.
Every day was shaped by closeness.
Fires burning against the chill.
Laughter echoing through thin walls andstories traded at night under stars,
bright enough to light the forest.

(13:32):
Tony's energy brought a spark tothese quiet gatherings, deepening his
bond with grandparents and friends.
A. It was a world built on familyrituals, shared meals, tales of Kansas
roots, and the ever present spiritof togetherness that made this remote

(13:52):
piece of Colorado more than an address.
It was their true home and everything I'velearned and read about the Duchess, they
were just really freaking cool people.
They just were cool people.
The two were just madly in love, spenttheir whole lives together and you

(14:13):
know, raise their kids and then nowtheir grandson would come up and spend
special time with them and stuff.
I mean, it's just, it's sweet.
Yeah, it really is.
And yeah, and those mountain communitiesup there, I mean, I've spent a lot of
time, not in Guffy, but in this area,you know, there's a ton of these tiny
little towns all through the ColoradoMountains, and it's just, it's a

(14:35):
unique breed that lives up there.
They're very.
Resilient.
They don't depend on anybody.
I know when I was downthere in Park County,

Angela (14:45):
well, it's hard to, and there's only, you know, 27 other people.

John (14:48):
Yeah, well they really, I mean, it's very similar to Wyoming.
They really learned to help eachother and rely on, on each other
because there's nobody else there.

Angela (14:57):
Yeah.

John (14:57):
And like I was gonna say, when I was down there, park County Colorado announced
that, um, they only had enough officers tolike staff, I think one deputy per shift.
So, and Park County is big.
So if you called the cops,they may or may not come.

(15:18):
They were only gonna respond to emergency.
Yeah.
They, they come out and flat said, we willonly be responding to emergency calls.
SI think all together, but itmight've been in the night.
But anyway, you know, they, theyjust couldn't find anybody work.
Don't call us

Angela (15:33):
for something stupid.

John (15:34):
Yeah.
And we won't be there.
You know, the counties arerelatively poor compared to Right.
The counties of the metropolitan area justdown the hill in Denver and Littleton and
Broomfield and the whole front range area.
And so they can't afford these highsalaries and so all their officers
end up going down and working forDenver PD or whatever because they

(15:56):
can make three times as much money.
So those, all emergency services inthose areas are really struggling.
I mean, fire and ambulances prettymuch all volunteer, but you know, even
with like the sheriff's department,they're really, really struggling.
So just to give an idea of justhow tiny we're talking about.

Angela (16:16):
Yeah.
Okay.

John (16:18):
So far from the city Lights, Guffey sits high in the Colorado Mountains rugged
country where forests, old mining claimsand winding dirt roads mark the landscape.
It's an isolated community.
Like you said, only a few dozen homesscattered across hills dusted with snow,
and the nearest signs of civilizationare miles away, down narrow highways.

(16:42):
It was here outside of this remote littletown that a handful of teenagers found
themselves drawn into each other's orbit.
A quiet gathering amid the bigsilence of Southern Park County.
The group center was Simon Sue, ambitious,magnetic and Restless, and just 19.

(17:02):
Simon stood out among his peers,his roots stretching to Guyana in
South America, but his presencefell across the Colorado Hills.
Raised by immigrant parents.
Simon grew up around firearms, learningtheir intricacies from his father's
collection, and soon discoveredthat he was just as skilled at chess

(17:24):
and persuasion, whether gathered inbasements or around kitchen tables.
Simon led his friends withstories of secret missions and
whispered tests of loyalty.
Among those pulled intohis world was Isaac Grimes.
15 and searching for connection in a placewhere fitting in felt nearly impossible.

(17:45):
Isaac was quiet, bookish a kid whobuilt forts and dreamed up adventures.
This is, remember that.
This is Tony's best friend.
We already talked about IsaacGrimes, if that name sounds familiar.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
And so they'd built up, they'd grownup building forts, like I said.
Yeah.
And dreaming up adventures andplaying an army in the woods

(18:07):
and all this kinda stuff.
And, but Isaac was desperate forfriends, but unsure just how to belong.
Simon's Club, which hedubbed OARA, we'll get to it.
Okay.
Offered Isaac a kind of purposethat he hadn't found elsewhere.
Promising brotherhood andmeaning in a mountain community

(18:29):
where both seemed scarce.
Jonathan Matthew.
Just 17 brought a harder edge,introverted, intense, and fiercely loyal.
Once given the chance with his militaryhaircut and preference for solitude,
Jonathan had drifted away from oldfriends, struggling at home, and

(18:49):
refusing the easy remedies of medication.
He found new belonging in Simon'sGroup, helping out with repairs and
strategy drawn to the seriousnessand the secrecy of their rituals.
Closest to the margins was GlennUrban 18, A nervous but capable
mechanic who hated school but thrivedin his workshop, living simply with

(19:13):
his mother and younger brother.
Glenn was recruited by Simon withpromises of new tools and camaraderie.
Though he was never sure whetherSimon's elaborate talk meant anything
real, the chance to be a part ofsomething unusual lured him in.
Together.
These teenagers found themselvesforging loyalty and trust in one of

(19:36):
Colorado's most secluded corners, agroup found by secrecy, the search for
purpose and the promise of belongingdeep in the shadowed mountain.
Quiet.
So before everything changed,Tony and Isaac were inseparable.
The kind of best friends who moved throughmiddle school as a single orbit, and they

(19:59):
were in Colorado Springs and their daysat that time were marked by long walks,
home neighborhood, games of strategy andtwin dreams of escaping the ordinary.
Tony, always thoughtfuland quick to laugh.
Made every afternoon into an adventure.
Isaac quiet but book smart finally foundsomeone who understood his fascination

(20:23):
with history and his imagined missions.
Yeah.
There's nothing unusual about this.
Not at all.
I hate this when I was a kid.
I think most little boys do this.
You know, it's very, it's verynormal and in especially in those
pre-teen years, kids in general do it.
Of course.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's imagination.
It's how we, it is.
It's how we grow, you know?

Angela (20:45):
Especially when you didn't have screen time back then.

John (20:48):
Exactly.
Yep.
So their bond was most visiblein the forts that they built.
Rambling constructions of wood tarpsand hidden maps on Tony's grandparents'
land, like we said, up near Guffy.
Together, they planned operations,staked out imaginary enemy lines

(21:08):
and dreamed of being secret agents.
Clever, courageous, andunited against the world.
But time and high school beganto change things as it does.
Tony remained friendlyin academically driven.
Welcome into new circles at Palmer High.
Isaac, however, struggledwith growing isolation, a shy

(21:32):
sophomore whose awkwardness onlydeepened in crowded hallways.
As Tony made new friends, Isaacworried that he was being left behind.
Again, such a common tale, you know?
I mean, for the most part, I reallydidn't remain friends with most
of the kids I went to elementaryschool with and stuff as we grew up.

(21:52):
Drifted apart, you form new friendships.
Yeah.
And your best friend in sixthgrade can be your worst enemy by
the time you leave high school.
Yeah.
You know, it's very common.
Tell.
Yeah.
But then Simon Sue appearedcharismatic and mysterious.
Simon radiated confidence.
His secret group, OARA, seemed to promise,belonging, adventure, and respect.

(22:18):
And for Isaac, who feltincreasingly invisible, Simon's
approval felt intoxicating.
Mm-hmm.
Words of encouragement replaced thecold shoulder that he'd received from
classmates, and even sometimes from Tony.
Slowly, Isaac's prioritiesbegin to shift where he once
waited for Tony after school.

(22:40):
He now lingered in Simon's basement,learning new tactics absorbed by strange
rules and chilling stories of loyalty.
Tony.
Loyal and perceptive tried to reach out,but the space between the two boys grew.
Isaac began keeping secrets hesitantto share the club's activities or the

(23:03):
strange rituals that he'd encountered.
Their friendship.
Once so solid became lacedwith suspicion and mistrust.
Isaac felt torn, waging an internal battlebetween the comfort of old camaraderie and
the allure of Simon's dangerous new world.
Tony sensed the change, saw Isaacdrifting away, but couldn't quite name the

(23:28):
shadow, settling over their friendship.
So by the close of the year 2000, the forton the hillside stood as both a reminder
of everything the boys once shared, anda symbol of the distance between them.
A childhood stronghold lost tonew allegiances and the painful
silence that follows whenbest friends become strangers.

Angela (23:52):
Yeah,

John (23:52):
and it happens all the time, like I said, you know, and it is painful.
It can be extraordinarily painful andconfusing and I don't know, it seems,
uh, curls seem to go through it a lot.
More.
Mm-hmm.
And more often.
I know my daughters, it was Oh,I've talked about it before.

(24:14):
Yeah.
It's like, you know, friends oneday enemies the next day, best
friends the week after that.
Yeah.
And it's like, it's just all over the map.
But, you know, um, it, it's veryhurtful when the, the any person, I
don't care who it is, I don't careif it's your spouse, I don't care if
it's a friend, if it's a lover who it,whoever it is that you have entrusted

(24:37):
some of your most personal secrets toas best friends do, especially as kids.
And then they turn on you and oftentimesthey take those secrets and use them
as ammunition against you and stuff.
Yeah.
I mean it's just, it's very painful.
It just, yeah.
It sucks and it's hard to go through,especially as kids, you know,

Angela (24:57):
something that was bonding becomes so weakness, a weapon swept.
Yeah.
Yeah,

John (25:02):
yeah.
So it began quietly.
Just a handful of restless teenagers ina dim basement drawn by the magnetism
of this freaking little psychopath,sorry ass hat, piece of shit.
Had to get it out there.

Angela (25:19):
Finally got the ass hat out there.

John (25:22):
I don't understand.
Well, I'll, I'll be talkingabout it through this episode.
I don't understand thiswhole cult bullshit.
Like, yeah, I don't understand how youcould believe this bullshit, but whatever.
We'll get

Angela (25:33):
there.
And, and I'm assuming hemeant it to spell Aura.
No.
Okay.
But we're about, that'sjust a happy accident.
We're

John (25:39):
about to get there.
Okay.
So bring it.
Despite being the smallest inany crowd, Simon stood tall.
I mean, he was a tiny little shit.

Angela (25:48):
So a Napoleon complex.

John (25:49):
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
But he stood tall in theminds of those who knew him.
He moved through Palmer High,like he owned the place.
Always sharp, always justa little bit untouchable.
At home surrounded by shelveslined with firearms and
trophies from chess tournaments.
Simon's world was equalparts, war, room and stage.

(26:12):
Yeah.
No one recruited like Simon.
He'd spot the loners at the edgeof the cafeteria, shy, adrift, and
make his move with an easy grin.
I can get you to do anything.
Yeah.
Hey, you want to be a part of somethingelse nobody gets to know about.
And his words had gravity.
For kids like Isaac Grimes and JonathanMath, the offer seemed golden and

(26:37):
escape from their Indi invisibility.
Secret Invisibility.
Secret societies.
Yes.

Angela (26:42):
Yeah.

John (26:44):
And it's interesting how he comes from Guyana.
Yeah.
And that's where, you knowJones in the People's Temple.
Oh, that's where the MassSuicide Connection place, that's
where they moved, was Guyana.
So I don't know, but it's interesting.
But.
The club had a code, OARA, and here yougo, operations and reconnaissance agents.

(27:10):
That's what it stands for.
Simon spun stories about revolutionin espionage, weaving his father's
distant Guyanese homeland into taleof secret missions, daring rescues
and imagined coups in Simon's tellingthey weren't just high schoolers.
They were select agentsentrusted with dangerous futures.

(27:35):
The rituals started small, late nights,deconstructing rifles, reciting oaths
of secrecy, running silent drills in thewoods or across darkened living rooms.
But Simon always pushed the boundaries.
In his basement clubmeetings grew intense.

(27:55):
He demanded obedience, enforcingloyalty with strange punishments, binge
eating contests, forced humiliation,disturbing videos meant to numb the
boys to fear he would've make go andwatch that Faces of Death, like those
faces of death movies over and overand over again and shit like that.

(28:18):
I mean, yeah, desensitization for a highschool student to come up with this shit.

Angela (28:24):
Mm-hmm.

John (28:25):
I mean, it's, it's kind of freaking crazy.
He's

Angela (28:28):
crack's cracked.
Yeah.

John (28:29):
Yeah, it's definitely, I mean, this is like, well this
is like James Jones' level shit.
Yeah.
I mean this is like DavidKoresh type of shit, you know?
And he's 19, so

Angela (28:40):
that's disturbing as hell.

John (28:42):
Yeah.
Simon's, Simon's genius was making everychallenge feel like a privilege he'd say.
This is what it takes.
If you can't handle pain, you'llnever be strong enough to lead.
Yep.
The boys craving, acceptanceor just something to break the
monotony of home, leaned in.

(29:02):
He ensured the boys bonded throughshared secrets, always reminding
them who they'd have to answerto if they ever broke his trust.
So by winner's, chill, OARA becameless a club, a more enclosed
world, uh, secret society.
Its boundaries drawn by Simon's willpower,and the group's collected need to matter.

(29:28):
The line between game and reality.
Blurred.
Yeah.
Doubt was replaced byritual, fantasy by obedience.
And Simon, the charismatic thing in hisbasement war room, he had built himself,
the loyal company that he'd always wanted.
So OARA functioned as a cruciblefor psychological transformation,

(29:52):
reshaping the minds and theself-perceptions of its members.
Under Simon's manipulative leadership,each individual's journey through
the group board's own hallmarkand scars, and he would tailor
his shit to each personality.
Yeah, of course.
Yeah.
So because he was studying them.

(30:15):
Right.
He was.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And we've said it before, but youknow, you talk about like John Douglas
and the FBI profilers, these littlepsychos, they're the real good profilers.
Yeah.
They can profile somebodyin about 27 seconds.
You know, we've talked about itbefore with like pedophiles and stuff.
They can pick out that onekid that they can convinced to

(30:36):
come with them or convinced tokeep their secret or whatever.
I mean, criminals are brilliant profilers.

Angela (30:44):
Yeah.

John (30:44):
And it's, it's just sad.
But this guy, Simon Sue, very, verygood at this because he sure as the shit
didn't invite anybody into his groupthat was like, okay, you're full of shit.
Mm-hmm.
I'm outta here.
I'm stopping at the freakingsheriff's office on my way by Uhhuh
to tell 'em that you're psychoticand you're gonna kill somebody.
Yeah.

Angela (31:04):
Yeah.

John (31:06):
So we'll start with Isaac Grime.
So we, we've already talkedabout him quite a bit.
We know that he was deeply introverted.
He was academically gifted, butemotionally he was very vulnerable
with a desperate need to belong.
He struggled to make friends and wasespecially susceptible to validation

(31:26):
from authority figures and initially,OARA provided Isaac with self-esteem and
with brotherhood, giving him a sense ofimportance that he'd never felt before.
As rituals and expectations escalated.
Isaac's willingness to pleaseturned into compliance based on

(31:47):
fear, and more importantly, thisintense desire for acceptance.
Over time, his moral boundarieseroded, replaced by anxiety, guilt,
and confusion about his own actions.
A classic portrait of someone coercedthrough psychological manipulation.

(32:08):
Isaac Grimes entered Palmer Highas a lonely, intellectually gifted
freshman, desperate for connection.
His parents describedhim as quote, set apart.
He read voraciously, butstruggled to relate to his peers.
So when Simon Sue offered friendship,flattery, and a sense of belonging, Isaac

(32:30):
was overwhelmed with relief and with hope.
So at first, the groupboosted his self-esteem.
He felt like he was part of aband of brothers valued for his
intelligence and his loyalty.
Simon's approval combined withthe rigorous initiation rituals

(32:50):
and their shared secrets, deepenedIsaac's commitment even when group
activities became degrading andfrightening, and they always do.
Compliments and affirmation wereused as psychological bait, followed
by intimidation and threats.
If Isaac considered dissent gradually,Isaac's internal compass, once

(33:14):
guided by empathy and friendshipwas blunted by fear, guilt, and
the need for Simon's approval.
He began to rationalize actionshe'd never have considered before.
Afraid.
Both of losing acceptance and ofSimon's threatened retribution.
So eventually Isaac reported feelingtrapped and dissociated from his

(33:38):
former self, a shift that culminated.
In his compliance withthe group's worst demands.
Next we have Jonathan Mathani.
Jonathan was serious, intense, andemotionally guarded, alienated at home.
He entered OARA hungry forstructure and recognition.

(34:00):
Within the group, he was reinforced foradopting a hardened enforcer role finding
in Simon's demanding environment, thevalidation and discipline that he craved.
Jonathan's empathy faded in favor ofloyalty and a need to be irreplaceable.
He grown comfortable with extremebehaviors and compartmentalized

(34:23):
violence, developing a kind ofemotional numbness that mirrored his
internalized anger and frustration.
All channeled through Simon's hierarchy.
For Jonathan, the transformationwas equally profound.
He took a different form, estranged fromhis family, isolated and harboring anger.

(34:45):
John found in O-A-R-A-A placewhere his seriousness and
skill finally seemed useful.
Simon's mil militaristic gamesrecruitment by special invitation and
emphasis on hardness dovetailed withJohn's desire to be indispensable,

(35:05):
Jonathan's identity is the group'senforcer became a point of pride.
He drew boundaries between himselfand any outsiders adopting Simon's
worldview and repeating theclub's anti weakness ideology.
Psychologically, OARA replaced thestructure and validation missing from

(35:27):
John's life at home, giving him purpose,any channel for his frustrations.
When Simon raised the stakes, John'sloyalty and willingness to go further
than others solidified his position.
And then we have Glenn Urban.
So Glenn was pragmatic.
He was skilled withtools, socially anxious.

(35:49):
His motivation often came more fromwanting approval and acceptance than
any true belief in Simon's ideology,although more skeptical than the others.
Glenn's compliance was shaped by fear,especially when Simon threatened harm
to anyone who considered leaving.
Glenn saw himself as a helper or afixer, and his anxiety and discomfort

(36:14):
were heightened by the group's closedpressure cooker Dynamics when tested
his need to fit in and overwhelmedhis doubts, and he became a compliant
participant despite his reservations.
Glen Urban's psychologicaljourney through OERA was marked by
weariness and technical curiosity.

(36:35):
Socially awkward but brilliant with tools.
Glenn initially engaged with OARAout of a desire for camaraderie
and access to Simon's promisesof workshops and resources.
While he never embraced Simon'sauthoritarian control as fully as Isaac
or John Glenn still obeyed out of fear.

(36:58):
Simon warned that group operatives couldharm his family if he tried to back out.
Glenn's nervous compliancedemonstrates how even a relatively
skeptical and pragmatic teencould be manipulated in a tightly
controlled threatening environment.

(37:19):
He remained on the periphery, buthis participation in disposing of
evidence showed Simon's power toex to extract loyalty under duress.
And then we get to theking ass hat himself.
Simon, the piece of shit, Sue.
So Simon was charismatic, intelligentin social strategy and possessed an

(37:43):
obsessive need for control and influence.
He excelled at identifying thevulnerabilities in others and
exploiting them, creating anelaborate fantasy world that mixed
real politics and invented danger.
He was a master manipulator.
His leadership was marked bycycles of flattery, intimidation,

(38:06):
and psychological domination.
Simon thrived on being seen asextraordinary and wielding power
over more submissive personalities.
Displaying traits often found innarcissists and sociopaths underneath
his charm and creativity was an arm roll,calculating drive for admiration and

(38:30):
obedience that overwhelmed the group.
Simon's own transformation was oneof escalating narcissism and control
from a charismatic if troubled teen.
He became a master manipulator,shaping reality through elaborate
fantasies, threats and rewardsin interviews and memoirs.

(38:53):
Experts and observers have comparedhim to infamous cult leaders, noting
his mix of charm and sociopathy.
He smelled blood in vulnerable peers.
Yeah, and weaponized theirinsecurity for his own gang.
Simon constructed OARA toreflect his own needs for power,

(39:18):
attention, and validation.
As members internalized his rules,their identities bent toward his warped
vision, demonstrating both the allureand the inherent danger of a group
built entirely on manipulation and fear.
So we had to talk about O-A-R-A-O-A-R-A,thus became not just a club, but I

Angela (39:42):
love that

John (39:42):
I can

Angela (39:42):
hear the air quotes in your voice.

John (39:46):
Yeah.
I have so much disdainfor people like Sue.
Okay.
It became not just a club, buta psychological prison reshaping
members through cycles ofaffirmation, pressure and intimidation
with Simon Sue orchestratingtransformations for his own ends.

(40:06):
Tony Dutcher was never a member of OARA.
Because his temperament,relationships, and personal interests
ultimately set him apart from theboys that Simon Sue recruited.
It came from a loving, caring home.
He had a good relationshipwith his parents.
He had a good relationshipwith his grandparents.
He was a solid kid.

(40:27):
And when you take a solid, well balancedkid and start telling 'em this bullshit,
they're gonna be like, this doesn'tmake any, I, I'm gonna ask my mom.
I'm gonna ask my, it's gotta to

Angela (40:38):
oppress one of those kids.

John (40:39):
Yeah.
They don't even get picked.
They don't even havean opportunity because.
These great profilers can pick 'em outright away and they're like, he's trouble.

Angela (40:49):
He's gonna see through.
Right, right.

John (40:50):
Tommy.
So Tony was outgoing and academicallycapable with a strong sense
of self and family stability.
While he was close friends with IsaacGrimes in junior high and shared interest
in military games and imaginativeoutdoor adventures, Tony did not
possess the vulnerabilities or theneed for belonging that made other boys

(41:14):
susceptible to Simon's manipulation.
And I think that need tobelong to something mm-hmm.
Is the most powerful driving forcebehind these kinds of groups.
Yeah.
So like we've said, Simon Sue,specifically targeted individuals who
were socially isolated, emotionally needy.
And easier to control traits.

(41:36):
Isaac Grimes, John, JonathanMathey, and Glenn Urban all
exhibited at least to some degree.
Tony, by contrast, maintaineda broader social network.
He was accepted by his peers,and he had support from his
family and his grandparents.
He was more independent and way lessimpressionable, making him unlikely

(41:59):
to be drawn into Simon's elaborateand intimidating club rituals.
He just walked out.
Yeah.
When Isaac became more and moreinvolved with OARA and started spending
increasing amounts of time away, Tony'sfriendship with him began to wane.
Tony was excluded from group secretsand rituals, and as Isaac grew more

(42:24):
and immersed in the club, theirrelationship faded even further.
And in the end, Tony's stable senseof identity, lack of desperation
for approval and existing supportiverelationships, shielded him from Simon
Sue's recruitment and the dangerousgroup dynamics that would follow.
So Simon Sue employed a rangeof psychological strategies to

(42:49):
intensify group loyalty and to bindthe OARA members to his worldview.
These included a steady flowof compliments, carefully
orchestrated rituals.
Grand promises about their shared purpose.
Simon's charisma allowed him to zeroin on the securities insecurities

(43:11):
of his recruits, especially thosewho felt isolated or overlooked.
He frequent, he would frequentlycompliment members on their intelligence,
on their skills, or on their resilience.
He told Isaac Grimes that he wassmart and assured him the group
needed minds as much as muscle.

(43:32):
Simon rewarded acts of obedienceor aggression with praise, making
each boy feel uniquely importantto the group and its imaginary.
Mission members were remindedoften that by joining OARA, they
became part of an elite team.
Quote, not like other kidsat Palmer High End quote.

(43:56):
These compliments were more than flattery.
They were strategic, turninggroup acceptance into a coveted
reward and making the threat ofexclusion a powerful motivator.
Simon built OARA around ritualsdesigned to cement loyalty, foster
secrecy, and desensitize membersto violence and discomfort.

(44:20):
So some of this little psychopathsrituals were as follows.
He had initiation ceremonieswhere new members repeated oath of
secrecy and obedience, sometimeswritten or recited under Simon's
supervision, they promised solidarity.
Solidarity and total commitment.

(44:40):
And then he had endurance trials whereinitiates were forced to binge eat
sometimes to the point of vomiting,and then told to consume their vomit.

Angela (44:52):
Oh my God.

John (44:53):
Yeah.
And this humiliation, Hey story,

Angela (44:56):
Steve scared you gotta stop.
I gotta stop.

John (44:59):
Yeah.
I

Angela (45:00):
mean, anybody out there who knows me knows that I've, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Nope.

John (45:05):
It's hard to believe anybody would do that.
But you know, it's like the, like MS13 and shit, they have like the, I
don't know, like the beatings, likewhen somebody comes a new member.
Yeah.
But he beats the piss out of himand that would be enough for me
to be like, nah, thanks, I'm out.
Yeah.
I'm not that interested.
So anyway.
Um, the humiliation ofeating your own v Yeah.

(45:28):
Would serve as a test and italso created a shared trauma that
they all went through together.
I mean, it's brilliant,evil as shit, but brilliant.

Angela (45:40):
Mm-hmm.

John (45:41):
Um, then he would have decent,

Angela (45:43):
I don't need to

John (45:43):
bond with anybody that

Angela (45:45):
badly.
I'm

John (45:45):
just going, I go on record right now.
I'm quite the contrary.
Yeah.
I might be convinced to do some of thisshit if everybody just leave me alone.
Okay.
Keep going.
So then you would have these deization sessions where members
would watch, like I said, theywould watch like faces of death.

(46:05):
Yeah.
Depictions of war violence orwhatever brutality they could
find in the early two thousands.
Yeah.
This was well before, you know,we had all this shit available on
the internet, so, but, um, Simonwould sit there and monitor their
reactions as they were watching this.
The goal was to suppress anyempathy and to reinforce the idea

(46:29):
that fear was weakness and thenhe would have weapons drills.
So Simon's father's firearmcollection provided ample
material for tactical drills.
The boys learned how to assemble anddisassemble and how to handle the guns as
part of their supposed military training.

(46:50):
Oh, geez.
And then, I mean, from what I understand,he was having them do it just like
in, in bootcamp and basic training.
Like they had to be able to disassemblethese firearms with blindfolds
on and reassemble 'em and stuff.
I mean, he, yeah, I mean, he wasputting 'em through the drills for sure.
And then he would havegroup strategy meetings.

(47:11):
We'd have like chess tournaments ortactical planning sessions, and these
were often staged in his basement.
And they were used to reinforce hisvision and his narrative of elite
secret agents that were preparing forthis imagined crisis that was coming.

Angela (47:29):
Now, did he have this manipulation over his parents too?

John (47:33):
I never could find much about his parents and their, and their kind
of relationship, so I don't think so.
Um, fucking

Angela (47:41):
me wonder how they're allowing

John (47:42):
all of this.
He comes across as, he's very, very good.
If you watch interviews and shit ofhim, he comes across as like this
meek, mild-mannered, little Asian.
So it had him snowed the Yeah, got it.
They would never do anything wrong.
Um, then he would take all these kidsdown to the basement and they'd have
their little war games or whatever.

(48:04):
I mean, it, the thing for me where I,where at least with me as a parent.
I all kinds of red flagswould come up is he's 19.

Angela (48:15):
Mm-hmm.

John (48:16):
If he was 14, yeah.
That would be something different.
But when a 14-year-old andhis, all his little friends are
in the basement playing army.
Okay.
That's one that's different.
Yeah.
When a 19-year-old is in the basementwith his friends playing army, I'd
start calling shrinks because Yeah.
They're up to something.

(48:36):
Yeah.
Something's wrong there.
Either they're very stunted, stinkin their growth, or it's much
darker, but that's not normal.

Angela (48:45):
Mm-hmm.

John (48:46):
19 year olds chase girls and run around drinking and get in trouble.
Yeah.
Or they're focused on theiracademics and their future and
they're not playing army anymore.

Angela (48:57):
Yeah.

John (48:58):
So that did strike me as really strange.
So, but his, his leadership, thecentral to his leadership was his
ability to convince all these kids.
That OARA served a vitalworld changing purpose.
He told stories of possiblerevolutions in coups in Guyana,

(49:21):
suggesting that the group had ties togovernment or intelligence agencies.
Simon claimed that they would somedaybe called upon to protect innocent
lives, hinting that weapons and skillsthey acquired were essential for these
future missions that were coming.
Giving 'em hero complexes, right?
He painted their existence asmeaningful and secret, making every

(49:45):
act from theft to violence feel likea necessary step in their training.
Training.
Yeah.
This sense of higher purpose transformedordinary teens into committed followers,
eager to sacrifice for their imaginedgreater good, and they were fearful of
letting down the group or its leader.

(50:08):
And, I mean, Manson did this shit.

Angela (50:10):
Mm-hmm.

John (50:11):
His followers, he would send them out.
I can't remember what he would call it.
Um, damnit I, any othertime I could tell you.
But they had some dumb names for, forwhat they would do and they would go
out and like burglarize homes and stuff.
And this was all getting 'emused to entering people's homes.
Yeah.
So eventually they would bemore comfortable killing the

(50:33):
people when they got in there.
Creepy, crawling, that'swhat he called it.
They would go out creepycrawling, and they

Angela (50:39):
couldn't have come up with something better than that.

John (50:43):
I'm pretty sure you, I'm wet

Angela (50:45):
down.

John (50:45):
You can double check me, but I'm pretty sure that's what they called it.
Yeah.
So Simon's compliments group rituals.
Grandiose promises created a closedenvironment where belonging was
won through conformity, pain andescalation, and where descent felt
dangerous, even unthinkable forvulnerable boys in rural Colorado.

(51:08):
These strategies forged a collectiveidentity that overrode personal morality
and led them deeper into Simon's darknarrative, the transition of OARA from a
secretive club to a criminal enterprise.
But you're right.
I thought, I thought I was right.
Yeah,

Angela (51:26):
I am very let down.

John (51:28):
Creepy crawling,

Angela (51:28):
but it was not better than that.

John (51:31):
Yeah, but I mean, Manson was a master manipulator, just like this idiot.
And.
He did the same thing.
He, he secluded them out in Death Valleywhere they were all by themselves, and
he could preach to 'em all of the time.
And then he would start having themdo little crimes to get comfortable

(51:54):
and then they'd get big, big and test

Angela (51:55):
their loyalty.
Yep.
And yeah.

John (51:57):
And then, I mean, when somebody pissed him off, he just killed him.
So everybody in the group knewif you piss Charlie off, the rest
of the group's gonna be buryingyou out in the desert somewhere.
Yeah.
But

Angela (52:09):
okay.

John (52:09):
You know, I think Simon Sue would've gotten to that point if he would've been
able to continue on with this bullshit.
Okay.
So that transition from the Secret Clubto a criminal enterprise, it followed a
gradual chilling escalation, just likeI've been talking about, all of which
was in engineered by Simon Sue initially,the group's activities revolved around

(52:33):
games, strategy sessions, weapon handlingand paramilitary style role play.
Playing soldier members practice chestand tactical drills, bonding over
Simon's invention, a narrative thatthey were preparing for a real mission
to defend Guyana or fight evil forces

Angela (52:54):
because you know, small town Colorado defends Guyana all the time,

John (52:57):
right?
Yes.
Simon's manipulation involved notjust fantasy, but a calculated
process where he tested themember's loyalty and boundaries.
His compliments, group ritualsand promises of purpose created
a sense of belonging that wasboth intoxicating and isolating.
As the group solidified, Simon beganintroducing more intense trials,

(53:22):
including the degrading shit wetalked about, and then exposing them
to the violent imagery, pushing themembers to prove their toughness
through pain and through obedience.
Criminal activity began subtlyand grew out of Simon's demands.
He ordered thefts, stealingof weapons, money, or tools,

(53:46):
quote unquote for the cause.

Angela (53:48):
Mm-hmm.

John (53:48):
The justification for these crimes was always wrapped in OARA ideology.
Members were told that they were armingthemselves for this Secret War defending
their honor or supporting their group'sFuture missions, Simon threatened
violence against members and theirfamilies if they refuse to participate.

(54:09):
Weaponizing fear is a tool for compliance.
The slide toward violence acceleratedas group trust in Simon Deepened
and their moral boundaries blurred.
Loyalty became synonymous with action.
No matter how extreme, when Simonordered more serious crimes, including
murder members felt trapped by fear,obligation, and their own need to belong.

(54:35):
Isaac Grimes, desperate for approvaland acceptance, was manipulated
into viewing the murder of his bestfriend Tony, as a test of loyalty.
Likewise, Jonathan Mathey took on therole of enforcer supporting group missions
with increasing emotional numbness.
Once members participated in one criminalact, Simon held their actions over

(55:01):
them, further binding them to the group.
The cycle was simple and brutal.
Ritualized group bonding, escalatingorders from Simon completion of
crimes and renewed threats untilthe group reached the unimaginable
violence of Duffy's triple homicide.
So.
You know, once he get 'em tobreak the law, well then he

(55:23):
has 'em by the short hairs.
Yeah.
Because if you turn onme, I'm turning you in.
Yep.
So then they're afraid to leave even more.
Afraid to leave.
Yeah.
So in summary, O a's path to crimewas a calculated evolution, engineered
through psychological manipulation,ritual, and coercion where fantasy

(55:43):
became reality and loyalty wasweaponized ultimately ending in tragedy.
Simon Sue's introduction of murder intothe group's narrative unfolded gradually
utilizing his established pattern ofmanipulation, escalating group loyalty,
and controlled through fear and fantasy.

(56:04):
The shift from imaginative missionsto discussions of real violence was
orchestrated through psychologicalconditioning and targeted ex exploitation
of each member's vulnerabilities.
In OARM meetings, Simonbegan weaving violent themes
into their imagined mission.

(56:25):
The group's early role plays centered onespionage and defense operations, framed
as potential actions to quote unquotesave Guyana or protect their loved ones.
Over time, these scenarios grew darker.
Simon introduced discussionsabout enemies, about traitors and

(56:46):
the need to eliminate threats.
Watching graphic violent videostogether became normalized, and Simon
emphasized that true loyalty meant bebeing willing to do whatever it took.
Simon positioned acts of violence,even murder, not as evil, but as
necessary sacrifices for a just cause.

(57:08):
He told the boys that they wereoperatives, special agents entrusted
with difficult decisions that ordinarypeople would never understand.
He repeatedly said that racism and evilneeded to be rooted out, suggesting
that some people were dangerous totheir group and their greater mission.
So this reframing was reinforced with.

(57:32):
Dramatic pronouncements that OARA wasunder a threat and only extreme measures
would secure safety and honor andtesting the boys by demanding evermore
transgressive behavior, starting withtheft, humiliation, destruction of
property, each successfully completedorder numbered resistance to escalation.

(57:56):
Simon leveraged the samepsychological tactics that he
used for lower level rituals.
When members expressed hesitation,he resorted to intimidation.
He claimed that he had contactswho could hurt their families if
they refused increasing fear forthemselves and their loved ones.
Simon painted murder as a test ofloyalty and manhood suggesting failure

(58:19):
would result in group expulsion.
Loss of status.
And personal danger forthem and their families.
With each targeted discussion, Simon gavespecific justifications for violence.
For Carl Dutcher, he fabricated orexaggerated stories about racism, saying
that Carl Dutcher was an extreme racistand that made him a legitimate enemy

(58:44):
in the eyes of his lunatic followers.
When it came to Tony Dutcher, Simon builtthe idea of betrayal and positioned Tony's
murder as both a necessary sacrificeand a personal challenge to Isaac
Grimes, insisting it was critical ifhe wanted to prove his true allegiance.

(59:06):
Isaac, desperate to regain favorafter falling out of Simon's.
Good Graces was convinced that bailingto carry out such orders would endanger
himself and those he cared about.
Jonathan already conditioned tocompartmentalize violence and craving
belongings, stop participating asjust further proof of his strength.

(59:29):
Simon conducted these conversations inprivate, away from outsiders who could
challenge or disrupt the narrative.
The group's secrecy and isolationdeepened their echo chamber.
Dissent became nearly impossible.
Simon had constructed areality in which violence was
justified, heroic, and demanded.

(59:50):
Loyal, demanded by loyalty.
Over weeks and months, the boy'sresistance to murder was broken down
step by step until it become not justconceivable, but within the confines of
the group's worldview, a good idea, amark of devotion, courage, and loyalty.
Simon's methods worked because heblended fantasy and fear, validation and

(01:00:15):
intimidation, bringing each member to aplace where murder became the ultimate pe
ultimate test of loyalty, executed in thename of a purpose that only he defined.
Simon Sue reportedly began discussingmurder with the members in the months
leading up to the Dutcher familykillings during the year of 2000.

(01:00:36):
So by late summer or early fall ofthat year, Simon's conversations and
group meetings shifted from simulatedmissions and machismo to toward explicit
talk of violence against real people.
Initially, Simon framed thesediscussions as hypothetical
posing questions about quote.
What would you do if you hadto protect the group, quote or

(01:01:01):
speculation about removing threats?
As Simon tightened his grip and amplifiedthe group's sense of exclusivity and
threat, he became more direct naming theDutcher family as targets and outlying
supposed justifications for theirviolence, like saying that Harl is a
racist and we need weapons for the group.

(01:01:23):
This move coincided with aperiod of escalating rituals
and increasing isolation of theboys from outside influences.
The transition away from fantasy towardactual plans for murder likely occurred
in the weeks prior to New Year's Eve.
2000 witnesses and investigators laterdescribed how Simon's conversations

(01:01:46):
and orders evolved during this criticalwindow with specific plots against
Carl, Joanna, and Tony Dutcher beingfinalized just before the crime.
By then, murder was no longer abstract.
It was articulated by Simon as thenecessary next step for OARA with each

(01:02:09):
member forced to confront and ultimatelycarry out his orders before anything as
unthinkable as murder entered the picture.
The group under Simon's direction wasalready spiraling into criminality.
At first.
Like I said, it was low level.
The boys that wererestless, fearful, fearful.

(01:02:30):
They found themselvescoerced into burglaries.
They stole from homes in the community.
They never questioned, never questioning,very deeply, just justifying it as
part of their training, or becauseSimon promised the money and the
goods were for the greater good.
Each successful theft drew them deeper.
The line between role playand reality blurred by Simon's

(01:02:54):
approval and his threats.
I mean, it really was like this carrotin a stick kind of thing, you know?
Mm-hmm.
They were forced to hand overtheir earnings from their
part-time jobs, and then he wouldcompliment 'em on acts of bravado.
I mean, yeah.
These kids just doing anything that he,I mean, he, they, they go to work and

(01:03:16):
give him all their, damn, it's insaneto me, but it happens all the time.
Mm-hmm.
As this continued to go, then he startedtalking about this raid that they needed
to have, and he picked Carl Dutcher'sproperty as the one to be raided because
they needed to acquire more guns to freeGuyana from the evil Guyana, bad people.

(01:03:41):
I don't know.
So very technical.
I love it.
Yeah.
I don't know who the enemy was.
Yeah.
In Guyana, it's never really clear.
It was just this fictional badgroup that was taking over Guyana.
So, so we said that there stated ofa object was to steal these guns.

(01:04:04):
They wanted, he wanted to steal arifle and a 45 revolver that they knew.
Were at the property as theburglaries and the raids mounted.
Isaac's mind was battleground.
Every step deeper into OARA comewith this gnawing sense of dread.
Isaac had always wanted to belong,and he was having some problems

(01:04:28):
getting on board with all this shit.
So he drifted between terror and shame,and he found himself res rehearsing ways
that he could please Simon all whilehoping for a chance that he could escape.
And I, I, I can't imaginethat he was alone in that.
I imagine all of these kids were goingthrough this same internal conflict

(01:04:49):
over all of this shit, you know?
So by the time that the raid on theDutcher home was ordered, the mood
in OARA was saturated with anxiety.
Isaac Russell Daily with the impossiblechoice, betray the group and risk his
family or betray his own conscienceand become something that he feared.

(01:05:09):
He felt trapped in this mazebuilt for manipulation and threat.
So in those final weeks, the group's,the group's comradery was replaced by
coil fear, a sense that Simon controlledthe very air that they breathed.
The laughter and confidence of theearly club days was gone, replaced by

(01:05:29):
a terrifying certainty that there wasno turning back and no one would be
spared if Simon's rules were broken.
As New Year's dawn, cold andquiet in the Colorado Mountains
in the Dutcher's home, the senseof holiday hung gently in the air.
Tony was excited.
This was the night that he was gonnacamp out in the fort that he built

(01:05:52):
up on the mountain, just up theslope from his grandparent house.
He, it was wrapped in anticipationof friendship because Isaac
was gonna come up and they weregonna camp out there together.
Reconnect, right.
And so, you know, this wild kidhad plans for a Scrabble game

(01:06:13):
game with his friend Isaac.
They were gonna camp out in thisfort and play Scrabble inside.
Carl and Joanna went around their,went about their day as usual.
Carl tend to do his routine routines,cleaning up around the property,
doing all their things miles away.
In Colorado Springs, Isaac Grimes wokewith unease every action that day felt

(01:06:35):
heavier, part excitement, and part dread.
He tried to mask his nerves as he movedthrough a carefully scripted schedule.
Meeting up first with Jonathanin the early afternoon.
At one 30, Jonathan's car pulled up,both boys silent, sharing attention
that neither dared to voice, but by fiveo'clock Isaac was at his job at Carls, Jr.

(01:07:00):
Dressed in Army fatigues a mix of teenagebravado and the increasingly surreal
game that he couldn't find a way to quit.

Angela (01:07:08):
Hmm.

John (01:07:09):
Jonathan hovered nearby, making phone calls and keeping the plan alive.
He lied to his mother about his locationand checked in with Simon, who was
hundreds of miles away in Canada, butstill controlling really every detail.
Well, of course, every goodpsychopath has to have an alibi.
Mm-hmm.

(01:07:29):
So late in the day, Jonathan picked upIsaac after his shift, the road from
Colorado Springs to Guffy stretched outahead nearly 60 miles of winter landscape.
The silence broken only by conversationabout logistics and routes and
reminders of what Simon expected.

Angela (01:07:47):
Does it say what reason he gave them why he was in
Canada and didn't participate?

John (01:07:52):
I think it was like a family trip or some bullshit.
Okay.
But I know it was a trip thatwas planned and that's when he
ordered this to, to go down.
So it would have plausible deniability.
Yeah.
I wasn't even in the country.
I don't even know what I want.
Tell you're talking about.
Yeah.
So at the Dutchess homestead, Tonymade one last call that evening,

(01:08:16):
hoping that Isaac would arrive soon.
He waited outside near thefort, folded into layers of
sleeping bags and hopeful plans.
The unfinished Scrabble game by hisside, a symbol of a friendship worth
fighting for inside his grandparents,prepared for the holiday night,
thinking only a family togethernessand the comfort of routine across

(01:08:40):
countries and admits deepening dusk.
Simon made calls from Canada.
Checking in to confirmeach step was proceeding.
Just as he ordered the web of control,he spun, reached through telephones
and threats widening tighter aroundIsaac and Jonathan, who now felt the
weight of every choice, every word,every movement in the growing dark.

(01:09:03):
So the night outside Guffywas silent, black and cold.
Frost clung to the windows ofCarl and Joanna Dutcher's trailer.
While up the slope, Tony huddled in hisfort, the shelter that he built with years
of memories and plans for midnight games.
The unfinished Scrabble boardglinted under a flashlight.

(01:09:24):
Tony glancing up at every sound,just thinking it was his buddy.
Isaac coming.

Angela (01:09:28):
Yeah.

John (01:09:29):
Elsewhere, Isaac's hands trembled beneath his gloves.
The car ride with Jonathan,Jonathan felt endless.
The mountain roads windingdread thick between them.
Isaac tried to steady his breathing,remembering Simon's instructions, the
threats, the years of pressure thathad brought him to this very second.

(01:09:51):
As the car slipped into the darkness nearthe dutcher's home, Jonathan parked and
waited, scanning the woods for movement.
Isaac stepped out and made hisway knees weak toward the fort.
Tony spotted him first, pure relief,washing over, nervous excitement.
They shared a greeting, a last flickerof their old friendship before Isaac.

(01:10:14):
Standing behind his bestfriend, unsheathed the knife,
and slashed Tony's throat.
Tony fell face down into his sleeping bag.
The night swallowing any cry.
The air was still, thechill was now thick.
With the silence of blood, Isaacstaggered back down towards
the trailer head spinning.

(01:10:36):
Pulse thundering.
Carl and Joanna were finishing their day,quiet, warm, tired from the holidays,
the Dark Creek as Isaac entered.
Barely met with concern.
The boys always came and went,especially when the camp got too cold.
Isaac returned to acting normal.
Covering the storm outside.

(01:10:57):
Hours passed around 4:00 AMJonathan slipped into the
trailer with Isaac's help.
The night was deep.
The world shrouded in frost.
Carl ever vigilant woke up to thesounds, his footsteps familiar
on the trailer's creaking floor.
He reached the narrow hallwayflashlight in hand, just as

(01:11:19):
Jonathan raised the rifle.
Two shots echoed through the home,shattering ribs, breaking spine,
ending Carl's life in an instant.
Carl collapsed the hallway confininghim as blood pooled in the shadows.
Poor Joanna, gripped in terror, fledto the bathroom, heart pounding,
knowing something was terribly wrong.

(01:11:42):
Jonathan followed slow,methodical rifle in hand.
A barrage of bulletsthudded into her body.
One tore through her cheek and herneck, another ripped through her chest.
She collapsed beside the bathtub, bloodspreading through the linoleum cracks
desperate for hell that would never come.

(01:12:02):
The house was utterly silent.
Isaac and Jonathan, shell-shockedand operating on autopilot, wiped
down surfaces with trembling hands.
Gathered the weapons thatSimon demanded and bundled up
incriminating evidence for disposal.
Their own clothes and Isaac'sbackpack were begged up to be burned.

(01:12:23):
The unspeakable acts erasedwith every nervous movement.
As Don crept across the mountains,the scene remained untouched.
Tony's fort was quiet.
His body still wrapped in sleepingbags face gentle in the moonlight.
Inside Carl and Joanna Lay wherethey fell, their home transformed

(01:12:46):
into a scene of unbearable loss.
So early the next morning, early on themorning of January the third, actually,
there had been, Tony's parents hadtried and tried and tried to call.
Nobody was returning their calls.
Nobody was answering anything.
So his dad, Charles, grew obviouslyanxious and he contacted the Park

(01:13:09):
County Sheriff's Office to requestthat they do a welfare check.
And, and deputies, including DetectiveSergeant Bob Horn drove up to the place.
And upon arrival, they knocked andthey listened for any sounds of life.
They received no answer.
So they entered the trailer and theyfind the body of Carl Vecher sprawled

(01:13:30):
in the hallway, and then they findJoanna slumped in the bathroom and.
Carl's son Charles, overcome with shock.
Anxiously is asking where his son isat and investigators reassure him that
they're gonna search the property.
So around midday detective detectivesand deputies spread out across the

(01:13:52):
dutchers land, searching for footprints,alternate hiding places, clues whatever.
Tony's mother, Jennifer dresser franticwith worry, calls the police and urges
them to check the fort, the shelter thatTony had built for camping out, a search
team hikes up to the frosted hillside anddiscovers Tony's body in his sleeping bag.

(01:14:15):
His throat deeply slashed theunfinished Scrabble game still.
Spread out beside him.
Mm. The grim realization thattheir loved ones are dead.
Absolutely.
Shatters.
Charles and Jennifer, who collapsed intears and disbelief there for a while.
They thought that Tony hadkilled his grandparents.

(01:14:38):
That's what it looked likewhen they first found them.
Mm-hmm.
And he was gone.
And then they find hisbody up in the fort.
So, so the investigators, you know,obviously they start questioning
any potential witnesses andthey wanna understand who would
target such a family like this.
They were well liked people.
Right.
And the neighbors describedTony's friendship with Isaac

(01:15:03):
Grimes and Jonathan Anthony's.
Frequent presence at the trailer, atthe Dutcher property and investigators
then visit Palmer High School andinterviewed staff and students about
Tony Isaac and Jonathan's relationships.
And Sergeant Horne notices a subtleinconsistencies in Isaac's statements,

(01:15:26):
a small detail that nags at him.
And that is, he said that he saidthat he had seen, um, Tony's new watch
and, but Tony had gotten that watchfor Christmas just a few days before.
And Sergeant Horn knew that Tony andIsaac hadn't seen each other Yeah.

(01:15:46):
Between Christmas and New Year's.
And so when he said he had seenhis watch, this sharp freaking
sergeant was like, oh, really?
So how exactly did you see that?

Angela (01:15:59):
Yeah.

John (01:16:00):
So detective detectives ask Isaac and his parents to come to the Colorado
Springs Police Department for anotherinterview, and under pressure and his
mother's insistence to tell the truth.
Isaac's composure cracks andhe breaks down and confesses.
He recounts the coercion.
Simon Seuss plans thecult like freaking OAR.

(01:16:23):
All the bullshit.
All the bullshit.
And explains in detail how hekilled his once best friend.
Yeah.
In the fort.
And then how then Jonathan camein and killed Carl and Joanna.
This happens late afternoon.
This.
So by evening, police are executingsearch warrants at the homes of

(01:16:44):
Isaac, Jonathan and Simon Sue,as well as other OARA affiliates,
and they recover guns, ammunition,a written plan for the murders.
Was Simon back in the country yet?
No, not at this time.
Law enforcement, you know, they gatheredthe forensic evidence, the DNA, the
fingerprints, all that kinda stuff.

(01:17:05):
The next day, park CountySheriff Fred Wagoner publicly
announces the shocking turn.
The boys are charged as adults.
Isaac for Tony's murder, Jonathan,for Carl and Joanna's murder.
Simon Sue is charged as the mastermind.
The local community obviouslyis freaking blown away.

(01:17:26):
No doubt.
And neighbors only have goodthings to say about the dutches.
Nobody was like, yeah, thesepeople were terrible people.
Every Right.
Everybody's like, they'reawesome freaking people.
Yeah.
So since Isaac confessed, heimplicated Jonathan in the, in
the whole, you know, Isaac justbroke down, laid everything out.
He, Jonathan then is arrestedand booked into the Spring Creek

(01:17:51):
juvenile detention facility.
Then Simon Sue's involvement becameclear as detectives untangled
this freaking weird ass crypticweb that has been, yeah, woven.
And so he was then confronted athis home where detectives seized
evidence, the club charters, thephone records and the weapons.

(01:18:13):
And then upon his arrest, Sue maintainedin aloof composure, refusing to
acknowledge any full responsibilityHis parents watched in disbelief as the
youngest leader was transferred throughholding cells to adult facilities.
And Simon was formally charged withmultiple counts of conspiracy and
violation of organized crime statutes.

(01:18:36):
Basically, he's like a freaking mob boss.
Yeah.
That's how he was charged.
Yeah.
And then Glen Urban's role came intofocus when the investigation revealed
that he destroyed the weapons thatwere used in the murders acting
as an accessory after the fact.
After further interviews and cooperatedtestimony from other members,

(01:18:57):
detectives secure a search warrant.
Glenn was arrested, charged with accessoryto murder and briefly held in county jail.
And then he's going to entera plea bargain, which is gonna
give him a shorter sentence.
So all the suspects were brought beforePark County Judge Stanley Mayhew,

(01:19:17):
and the teens were advised that theywould be charged as adults, moved to
county jail and held without bond.
Prior to district court appearances,public defenders were assigned
to 'em and family members.
I, I mean these, I feel sorryfor their families too, you know?
Don't, I mean, can you imagine,you just heard that your son slit

(01:19:39):
his best friend's throat, right?
I mean, so Yeah.

Angela (01:19:43):
And if they were that close, they loved him too.

John (01:19:47):
Of course, they watched him grow up, you know?
Yeah.
The following segment contains explicitgraphic descriptions of forensic autopsy
findings and the traumatic injuriessuffered by the victims in this case.
Some listeners may find the medicaldetails, depictions of violence,
or the discussion of fatal wounds,deeply distressing or disturbing.

(01:20:11):
This content is intended for matureaudiences and aims to provide a
factual unflinching account within thecontext of a true crime investigation.
Listener discretion is strongly advised.
If you are sensitive to accountsof violence, death, or graphic
medical examination, you may wishto skip ahead to the next section

(01:20:32):
in the Park County Coroner'sfluorescent Lit examination Room.
The bodies of Tony, Carl and JoannaDutcher arrive cold beneath blue sheets.
Tables glinted with surgicalimp implements, scalpels,
clamps, all the shit.
And then they dive in.
So Tony Dutcher, this poor kid.

(01:20:54):
Uh, he received deep slashing, adeep slashing in size, wound across
the neck, nearly to the spine.
Massive blood loss, no defensive wounds.
The body was discovered, wrapped in asleeping bag, and it was determined that
he died by extermination or blood loss.

(01:21:15):
He bled to death due to the neck wound.
No signs of a struggle.
He was likely taken by surprise.
And Isaac explains he wastotally taken by surprise.
Little cowardly piece ofshit snuck up behind his best
friend and slit his throat.
I mean, it's absurd.
Yeah, it's absurd.
Carl Dutcher received two gunshot woundsto the chest and the upper abdomen.

(01:21:40):
Severe trauma to four ribs,lacerated bowel, lacerated aorta.
It cracked his spine, rapid blood loss,and he had collapsed in the hallway.
Determination was that he was a deathby gunshot trauma and hemorrhage.
He had very little time to react,and he was in an upright position

(01:22:02):
at the time of the shooting.
Joanna Dutcher received six gunshotwounds to the cheek, to the neck,
the left breast through the torso,extremities, and the shoulder.
The fatal round, traversed vital organs,and she was found in the bathroom,
like we said, beside the bathtub.

(01:22:23):
So I was determined.
Again, her death was due to multiplegunshot wounds, and she was crouched in
a crouched position, you know, hiding.
Yeah.
You know?

Angela (01:22:35):
Yeah.

John (01:22:36):
So, and this was

Angela (01:22:37):
days like a couple days afterwards, so they,
yeah, they weren't found.

John (01:22:40):
Okay.
So the murders occurred on NewYear's Eve, and they were found on
January 3rd who, so the wound toTony's neck destroyed major vessels.
It, it severed his jugularin his carotid causing near
instantaneous loss of consciousness.
And the spinal tissue waspartially expo exposed.

(01:23:03):
So, I mean, he literally, dangit, almost de capitated this kid.
Yeah.
Tony was dressed warmly, no scrapes orbruises on his hands indicating surprise.
Mm-hmm.
And no foreign chemicals at all.
Were detected, were detectedin toxicology reports.
Um, Carl Thatcher, both bulletsused were from a high powered rifle.

(01:23:24):
So I don't, I don't think I could findthe caliber, but it doesn't really matter.
Andre ROEs showed clean edgeswere fired from medium range.
They shattered four ribs and thebullet tracks destroyed vital organs.
He had abrasions on hisforearms suggesting maybe
a minor defensive posture.

(01:23:46):
He likely raised his hands rapidly.
Mm-hmm.
As the attack, you know, come find him.
Yeah, but he had minimal bruisingor any other wounds anywhere else.
Joanna Dutcher.
It entered through the cheek and theneck revealed facial tissue destruction.
Blood aspiration into the windpipe.

(01:24:06):
The main fatal wound entered the leftbreast, passing diagonally through
the liver, the pancreas and the bowel,fracturing the spinal processes before
coming to rest additional rounds,then struck her arms, her thighs,
and her shoulder, indicating franticmovement, possibly diving or attempting

(01:24:28):
to shield herself, trying to escapethese little psychotic bastards.

Angela (01:24:32):
Right?

John (01:24:33):
Um, there was a defensive brush abrasion that was found on her
knuckles as she tried to crawl orto bra herself on the bathroom tile.
So, I mean, obviously it'sjust absolutely horrible.
Horrible,

Angela (01:24:49):
yeah,

John (01:24:50):
to even consider.
So, piece of shit numberone, Isaac Grimes.
And I just want to be clear.
You know, I described the psychologicalgame, that piece of shit, Simon
Sue was playing it on, that in noway alleviates responsibilities
from these little assholes.
They're all pieces of shit.

(01:25:11):
And just because they're weak minded doesnot give them an excuse to murder people.
They, so I just wanna bevery clear about that.
Just because they're weak and we'remanipulated does not make it okay.
Exactly.
After Isaac's confession and followinga wave of media and public attention.

(01:25:31):
Isaac, who was then 15, was charged asan adult with the first degree murder
of Tony Dutcher and conspiracy relatingto the killings of Carl and Joanna.
Yeah, and you know, his case washeard in the Park County District
court before Judge Stanley Mayhew.
Grimes initially faced chargesthat could have resulted in life

(01:25:52):
imprisonment or the death penalty.
However, prosecutors, the judge, andthe Grimes defense team considered
his age, his contrition, hiscooperation, and the role that psycho
Sue and Mathy played in coercing him.
So he reached a plea agreement where hepleaded guilty to second degree murder

(01:26:14):
and conspiracy, and his cooperationwith the investigators was essential to
securing convictions against the others.
Then Grime's courtroom appearancewas subdued and remorseful.
He provided detailed statements abouthow he was recruited and all the
stuff that we've been talking about,victim impact statements were given.

(01:26:37):
I can't imagine what it must'vebeen like for Tony's parents.
Um, you know, Charles lost his momand his dad and his son to a kid like
you alluded to earlier, that he Nodoubt, undoubtedly watched grow up.
Yeah.
But it was

Angela (01:26:54):
sunlight himself.

John (01:26:56):
Exactly.

Angela (01:26:57):
So he lost him too,

John (01:26:59):
right?
Yeah.
Initially, crimes received a 60 yearsentence, 40 years for the second degree
murder and 10 for conspiracy, and thesewould be served consecutively, much public
debate, followed with some, includingstate officials and the judge himself.
Reconsidering whether someoneGrimes his age, who confessed and

(01:27:22):
assisted the prosecution shouldserve more time than the Mastermind.
In 2006, judge Plots reduced Grimes, hissentence by two years, acknowledging his
youth and conscious remorse resultingin a total sentence of 58 years.
During sentencing, judge Plotts toldGrimes, in all likelihood, years from

(01:27:44):
now, you will not be Isaac Grimes.
Who murdered murdered Tony Dutcher.
So Grimes is serving his sentencein Colorado and was later approved
for community corrections programand is still subject to correctional
supervision as of right now.
Then we go to Jonathan Mathani, who wasarrested on the foundation of Grime's

(01:28:08):
Confession, and he was charged as an adultwith the first degree murder of Carl and
Joanna Dutcher, as well as additionalcharges of conspiracy and participation
in an organized criminal enterprise.
And from the outset, his defenseattempted to distance him from the
shootings and suggested that he wasonly the getaway driver, that he

(01:28:31):
was not directly responsible foranything, and but he eventually pleaded
guilty as part of another plea deal,admitting to conspiring to commit
first degree murder and violating theColorado Organized Crime Control Act.
Unlike Grimes, he never providedsignificant assistance or showed

(01:28:52):
any remorse, which definitelycolored subsequent sentencing.
So.
During the proceedings, he was generallystoic and he spoke very little.
The prosecution was determined toestablish his role as both a willing
participant and the trigger man.
His history, he had a trolled home life.

(01:29:13):
He refused to take prescribedmedication for depression.
Growing.
Isolation was discussed, butit offered little mitigation
for the severity of the crimes.
Again, victim impactstatements were given.
Ultimately, this piece of shit wassentenced to 66 to 68 years in prison.
Sources differ.

(01:29:33):
I saw it reported as, as both 66 and 68.
I'm not entirely sure, but one ofthe longest sentences among all the
participants, the judge cited his lackof remorse and active role in carrying
out the murders as aggravating factors.
The court denied eligibility forcommuni for community corrections
or early release citing both thebrutality of the offense and the

(01:29:57):
continuing risk that he representedif he was to be relieved, released.
Um, and you know, the Dutcher familyobviously, and understandably said,
quote, no sentence will ever be enough.
And I agree.
And then.
To Captain Shithead, Simon Sue.

(01:30:18):
He was arrested.
Like we said, it took, it took quitea while to build up to his arrest.
They had to build a case against him.
Yeah, but he was eventually arrested,and then the prosecution painted him
as the manipulative, cold, calculatingleader of this whole freaking group.
They talked about the missions andall the bullshit that he did, and they

(01:30:40):
highlighted his sense of detachmentand his escalating aggression.
He constructed this,

Angela (01:30:47):
yeah,

John (01:30:47):
to play out this way.
His defense team attempted to downplayhis influence, suggesting that he
was no more culpable than any otherparticipants and painted the actual
killers as acting of their own accord.
He claimed that he was no genius.
He attempted to distance himself.
Again, the witness or the victim impactstatements were given again in his case.

(01:31:12):
And then after significant deliberation,this piece of shit finally pleaded guilty
to three counts of conspiracy to commitfirst degree murder and violating the
Colorado Organized Crime Control Act.
The judge sentenced this pieceof shit to 53 years in prison.
The court cited sue's controlling coldcalculated demeanor as aggravating

(01:31:35):
factors, and noted the enduringimpact of his manipulations that his
manipulations had on the families,the victims, and the community.
So in the years that followed, thispiece of shit was transferred to a
supervised residential facility prompting.
Protests from the denture familyand the area residents who felt that

(01:31:56):
his punishment did not match thescope of the harm that he had done.
Glenn Urban was arrested afterinvestigators established his
role and, you know, recognizingthat he had kind of a peripheral
involvement in the whole thing.
And he also testified for the prosecution,so they offered him a plea deal in

(01:32:20):
exchange for his cooperation and incourt, he accepted a deal to plead
guilty as an accessory to murder.
He provided crucial testimonythat explained how the group
destroyed the murder weapons.
Urban had disassembled the rifle,cut up the knife, and then hid and
disposed of the pieces in pink cans anddumpsters to impede the investigation.

(01:32:43):
And so he received the most lenientsentence among the defendants,
which I believe he should have.
He didn't actually participate in themurders, but he received a two year
sentence and six years of probation.
The decision was based on hiscooperation, his remorse, and the lack
of direct involvement in the crimes.

(01:33:05):
The judge acknowledged that urban hadbeen manipulated by Sue and operated out
of fear for his and his family's safety.
However, the court stressed theseriousness of impending justice
in a case of such magnitude.
Then Isaac Grimes, after his conviction,he appealed and we talked about that

(01:33:26):
appeal where the judge knocked a coupleyears off his sentence as of 2025,
he's still incarcerated in Colorado.
He was recently in ArrowheadCorrectional Center, but has been
approved for placement in a DenverCommunity Corrections program and.
Community corrections is a highlysupervised residential step before parole.

(01:33:50):
I think it's bullshit.
Yeah.
I think he need, I think he owesa lot more time, but mm-hmm.
You know, that's just me, whathe's done 24 years or something
like that, but not nearly enoughfor this little piece of shit.
And you're gonna see why I just despisehim almost as much as Simon Sue.
I mean, not he slit his bestfriend's throat, so that's a

(01:34:12):
big part of the freaking reason.
Mm-hmm.
But still Anthony's case, uh, seriesof hearings and appeals and bullshit,
and it's, the Colorado Supreme Courtaffirmed all the key elements of his
sentence and upheld his conviction whileallowing minor re-sentencing adjustments.
And so, but he's still currentlyserving a lengthy sentence.

(01:34:36):
He remains incarcerated in theColorado State Prison with a
mandatory release scheduled for 2036and parole eligibility after that.
So he's not been approved for any kindacommunity corrections or transition
or none of that kind of stuff.
The captain piece of shit, Sue mountedseveral appeals including a federal habeas

(01:34:59):
petition and convicts rights actions.
They've uniformly been denied withcourts upholding both the validity of his
confession and the overwhelming evidenceof the con of his conspiracy role in 2016.
His petition for a certificate of appealability was rejected at the 10th circuit
and Sue has not disputed most factsinstead arguing over technical sentencing

(01:35:25):
and conditions of incarceration.
Earlier in 2025, Sue was released fromtraditional prison and transferred
to a supervised residentialfacility, the community corrections
program as part of his sentence.
So this step absolutely outraged thevictim's families who see this move

(01:35:45):
is inadequate given his central role.
He's the piece of shit that did this.
None of this would'vehappened without him.

Angela (01:35:53):
Mm-hmm.

John (01:35:54):
And so urban having cooperated with the prosecutors for a much
lighter sentence, um, he was releasedafter serving his brief jail term.
He completed probation, and he's notsubject to any further incarceration.
He's done with all of this.
You know, there's nothinghanging over his head.
The Dutcher family continuesto monitor case outcomes and

(01:36:16):
fight any reductions they want.
These little pieces of shitin prison where they belong.
I'm right with them.
Same.
I want 'em in there too.
So Isaac Grimes, and this is why Isay he's a worthless piece of shit.
So he wrote a highly controversial andoffensive letter to the Dutcher family

(01:36:36):
during his incarceration in a letterpostmark March 22nd, when he was 19 years
old and already serving his sentence.
He contacted CharlesDutcher and his family.
In relation to their wrongfuldeath lawsuit against him and
the other convicted teens.
So the family sued these littlepieces of shit for wrongful.

Angela (01:36:57):
Yeah.

John (01:36:57):
You know, and so he writes, dear Dutch, your family, you are
in a perilous position spiritually.
I just don't want you to continuehurting yourself or shutting yourself
out of the kingdom of heaven.
I urge you to consider forgiveness.
Please read your Bible.
See what it says about holdingonto anger about mercy and grace.

(01:37:22):
You keep talking the talk,but you don't walk the walk.
You need to forgive in orderto truly follow Christ.
If you don't forgive,the pain stays with you.
The anger separates you from God.
You're hurting yourself, not me.
I would value your forgiveness greatlyshould you choose to give it if you don't.
However, it won't bother me in termsof how I feel about myself, but it is

(01:37:48):
painful to see you and your brothersharboring unforgiveness because
of how much you hurt yourselves.
By doing so, God has forgiven me, andif someone's opinion of me differs
from his, who should I value more?
You pursue this lawsuit, butyou should know I have nothing.

(01:38:08):
No assets, no income.
If anything, the legalcosts may fall back on you.
I pray for your healing andhope one day you can find peace.
Signed Isaac Grimes.
You can rot in hell you rotten.
Little piece of shit.

Angela (01:38:26):
There are no words.

John (01:38:28):
Yeah.
I mean, it is not like he, he, youknow, begged for their forgive.
I mean, he's a totalasshole in that letter.

Angela (01:38:37):
Yeah.

John (01:38:37):
Like this holier than thou Exactly.
Freaking, yeah.
Uh, I, I read that thing and I was like,you've gotta be freaking kidding me.
This guy's a piece of shit.
He was a piece of shit forkilling his best friend.
He's a piece of shit for beingweak and he's a total piece of
shit for having the nerve to writea letter like that to a family.

(01:38:59):
Exactly.
That.
I mean, he killed the whole family,their son and their parents.
So yeah.
So what do you think of that story?
Oof.
It's a heavy one, isn't it?
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
It's rough.

Angela (01:39:16):
Just oof.
That's all I got.

John (01:39:17):
Yeah.
The winds that cut through themountains of guffey still whisper
the same warning that evil doesn'talways come from the shadows.
Sometimes it comes from those we trust.
Simon Sue wasn't a legend or amonster lurking in the woods.

(01:39:38):
He was a teenager.
Small in stature, but large in influence.
He built a world out of fear and fantasy,and others followed him into the abyss.
Isaac Grimes, Jonathan Matthew Glenn,urban Boys, who should have been
thinking about homework, sports,or first jobs instead became Pons

(01:40:01):
Andy Nightmare carrying out acts ofviolence that would shatter families
and leave scars that never heal.
The Dutcher family should havebeen safe in their mountain home.
Carl and Joanna should have livedout their quiet years together.
Tony should have had a chance togrow up, to laugh with friends, to
find his place in the world instead.

(01:40:22):
Their lives were stolen in a calculatedact of cruelty, not by strangers, but by
someone Tony once called his best friend.
That betrayal deepens the wound makingthis case one of Colorado's most haunting.
And what lingers long after thetrials, the sentences, and the appeals.
The knowledge that manipulation canbe more powerful than any weapon.

(01:40:47):
And that loyalty when twisted by thewrong hands can destroy everything.
It touches the so-calledlords of darkness.
OARA weren't soldiers.
They weren't agents, they were kids.
But under Simon Sue's control, they becomesomething far more dangerous killers.

(01:41:08):
As the October 9th settles in, we'releft with a reminder that not all horror
is born from myth or superstition.
Some of it is crafted in basements,whispered in teenage bedrooms,
spread through fear and secrecyuntil it takes on a life of its own.
And when that kind ofdarkness grows unchecked.

(01:41:30):
It can claim not just lives,but entire communities.
So as we close this chapter, rememberthe names that matter the most, Carl
Dutcher, Joanna Dutcher, and Tony Dutcher.
Their lives are the heart of thisstory, and their absence is the
shadow Guffy will always carry.

(01:41:52):
Because the true horror hereisn't the club Simon Sue invented.
It isn't the rituals or even themurders themselves, the true horror.
Is how easy it was for trust to bebroken, for loyalty, to be weaponized,
and for innocence to be extinguished.
And that's why we tell their story.

(01:42:14):
Not to sensationalize it, but tomake sure it's never forgotten.
Because in Guffey, Colorado,the price of devotion was blood.
And in the quiet of these mountains, theechoes of that night still haunt the dark.

(01:42:36):
Carl Dutcher was a man whose lifereflected resilience, discipline, and
devotion to family, a Vietnam veteran.
He carried the weight of serviceand sacrifice, but he never let
it harden him into bitterness.
Instead, he poured his strengthinto building a quiet life in
color in the Colorado Mountains.

(01:42:56):
Alongside his wife, JoannaCarl was known as dependable.
A man who honored his word, kept hisroutines and worked tirelessly to maintain
his home and his land neighbor Simonis someone that they could rely on.
While his family knew him as thestrong, steady anchor who gave them
safety and stability, his love forhis grandson, Tony showed brightly.

(01:43:22):
Carl was proud of the boy.
Tony was becoming encouraging hiscuriosity, supporting his adventures,
and modeling what it meant tolive with integrity in their home.
Together Carl provided both the lessonsof discipline and the tenderness of love.
Balancing toughness with warmth.
When Carl's life was stolen in his ownhome, it wasn't just an act of violence

(01:43:46):
against one man, it was the silencingof decades of wisdom, humor, and care.
In court, his son, Charles, later saidthat his father's absence felt like
quote, a bullet hole in every single day.
End quote, that grief is thetruest measure of Carl's impact.

(01:44:06):
A man whose presence was so steadyand vital that life without him fill.
Unthinkable.
Carl Vecher should be remembered not asa victim of cruelty, but as a husband,
father, and grandfather whose strengthlives on in the family that loved him.

(01:44:26):
His legacy is not defined by howhe died, but by how he lived with
courage, devotion, and unwavering love.
If Carl was the fortress of theDutcher family, Joanna was its warmth.
She carried within her a gentlenessthat softened every corner of their
mountain home, transforming it intoa place where family and friends

(01:44:48):
could feel safe, loved and welcomed.
Life in rural Colorado was not easy.
Winners were long neighbors.
Few and daily living requiredgrit, but Joanna met those
challenges with patience and humor.
She supported Carl in everyendeavor and built a rhythm of

(01:45:09):
life that balanced hard work.
With comfort.
She filled holidays with laughtermills, with warmth and quiet evenings
with stories and companionship.
Those who knew Joanna, remember her smile,her kindness, and her instinct to nurture.
To Tony, she was the safe harbor.

(01:45:29):
The grandmother who offered unconditionallove, who listened without judgment.
And who made every momentwith her feel special.
Her presence made thedutcher home a sanctuary.
When Joanna's life was cut short,her family and community lost.
Not just a wife and a grandmother,but the heart of the household.

(01:45:51):
Her absence left a silencethat could never be replaced.
Loved ones spoke of how she woveconnection into everything she did,
reminding us that sometimes the mostpowerful legacies are created not
through grand gestures, but througheveryday acts of love and care.
Joanna Dutcher's memory enduresin the lives that she touched

(01:46:13):
in, the warmth she gave.
And in the tradition she built, shewill always be remembered as the
heartbeat of her family and a womanwhose quiet grace left a permanent mark.
At just 15 years old, TonyDutcher was brimming with life.

(01:46:35):
Curiosity and potential.
He was a boy who loved adventure, whofound joy in the outdoors and who carried
the kind of loyalty and kindness that madehim beloved by his family and friends.
Tony spent much of this time with hisgrandparents in Guffy, where the Colorado
wilderness became his playground.

(01:46:55):
He built forts on snowy hillsides, campbeneath starlet skies, and played games
that stretched long into the evening.
Those moments shared withthe people he loved most were
the heart of his young life.
What said Tony in part washis loyalty to his friends.
He was steady and dependableto his grandparents.

(01:47:18):
He was a joy and a blessing.
His laughter filled their homeand his presence added a spark
of light to every gathering.
The betrayal that ended his life atthe hands of someone that he once
called his best friend is a tragedy,almost too painful to comprehend.
In court, Tony's father Charlesexpressed his grief with searing honesty.

(01:47:42):
Quote, 800 years wouldn't have beenenough for what they took from my family.
I see the bullet holes every day.
I hear my boys laugh,and it stops me cold.
Knowing what was done tohim by people he trusted.
Tony's mother, Jennifer carried her ownpain, but also spoke words of grace saying

(01:48:04):
to Isaac Grimes quote, you stole my child.
I can never forgive what you did.
But I know your mind was taken too.
I hope you find real remorseand that someday something
good comes from the truth.
End quote.
Tony should not be remembered for the wayhe died, but for the way that he lived
with laughter, loyalty, and the spark of ayoung man who had a lifetime ahead of him.

(01:48:30):
His story will always be carriedforward by those who loved him, and his
memory will forever be a reminder ofhow precious and fragile youth can be.
Carl, Joanna and Tony Dutcher,three lives, bound by love, stolen
by violence, but never forgotten.

(01:48:51):
Together they represent afamily whose stories should be
told in warmth, not in horror.
By remembering them this way asstrong, kind, and full of life,
we ensure that their light enduresbeyond the darkness of that night.

(01:49:16):
As we bring tonight's episode toa close, we don't want the final
word to belong to the darkness.
It belongs to the victims.
Carl, Joanna and Tony Dutcher.
Their lives were filled with love.
Strength and light, and that'show they should be remembered.
Not as footnotes in a crime,but as a family whose bond could

(01:49:38):
never be broken even in tragedy.

Angela (01:49:41):
That's right.
Every story we tell is really aboutpeople, not the cruelty that ended
their lives, but the beauty thatshaped them while they were here.
Remembering Carl's steadiness,Joanna's warmth, and Tony Spark keeps
them alive in memory, and that'sthe part we can all carry forward.

John (01:49:58):
And if you believe like we do that, these stories matter, then help us
make sure they're not lost in the noise.
If you're listening on YouTube, getthat thumbs up, subscribe and ring
the bell so you never miss an episode.

Angela (01:50:12):
If you're with us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts,
leave a review and a rating.
It only takes a moment, but it helpspush these stories into more ears.
And hearts than you can imagine.

John (01:50:22):
And don't forget to share this episode.
Send it to a friend.
Post it on social media.
Tell someone about the Duchess.
The more people who know theirnames, the harder it becomes
for them to ever be forgotten.

Angela (01:50:36):
You can also go a step further.
Visit us@darkdialogue.com where youcan join the Dark Dialogue Collective.
A group of people dedicated to research,advocacy, and keeping cases alive.

John (01:50:48):
And if you feel called to do it, consider our adoptive victim program a
way to honor a single victim by carryingtheir story, keeping their memory
alive, and refusing to let them fade.

Angela (01:51:00):
For bonus content, deeper dives and behind the scenes
insights, subscribe to our substack.
And if you ever want to reach outto us directly, whether it's a tip,
a thought, or your own story, youcan email us at info@darkdialog.com.

John (01:51:14):
We can't thank you enough for listening, sharing, and
keeping these stories alive,

Angela (01:51:19):
because in the end, it's, that's what this is about, shining
light where others tried to bring only

John (01:51:24):
darkness.
So, until next time, keep searching,keep questioning, keep remembering,
and above all, keep the dialogue alive.

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The Pact of Shadows — The Simon Sue Murders in Guffey, Colorado

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Pact of Shadows — The Simon Sue Murders in Guffey, Colorado