Billy the Kid, Part 1 – The Regulators Rise - Dark Dialogue: Gallows and Gunfights

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John (00:12):
The creek of wooden floorboards echo three packed courtroom, A
gavel slams sharp as a rifle shot.
Dust modes drift in the sunlight,cutting through tall windows.
Onlookers lean forward.
Straining to hear the casebefore the court today.
The American West.

(00:33):
Welcome to Dark Dialogue,gallows and Gunfights.
This is where the old west stands trial,not the west that you saw on Saturday.
Matton Maze wheresheriffs wore white hats.
Outlaws wore black ones andjustice rode in right on schedule.
But the real west, thebloody complicated west.

(00:54):
The West where the same man mightbe a lawman one year outlaw the
next where corruption war badgeas often as it drew a six shooter.
And where Myth has replacedfact for far too long.
This is the newest show inthe Dark Dialogue family.
If the flagship digs into unsolved crimesand modern mysteries and Rocky Mountain

(01:16):
Reckoning, reconstructs cold cases on thefrontier, gallows and gunfights is about
peeling back the legend of the old West.
And putting it under oath.
The format is simple.
We treat history like testimony.
Every story is a case.
Every outlaw, lawman, cattle baron, andguns slinger takes the stand in the court

(01:37):
of history, the evidence, court records,depositions, eyewitness accounts, and
the bloody paper tr left in their wake.
And you the listener.
Sit in the gallery jury to it all becauselet's be clear, the history you've
been told isn't always the historythat really was Hollywood gave us.

(02:00):
John Wayne riding tall Gary Cooper,standing fierce at high noon.
Clint Eastwood drifting into town withjustice and vengeance and equal measure.
These are powerful myths,but the true stories, they're
far murkier and far darker.
Take Billy the kid, you'veheard the name, A boy outlaw in

(02:21):
desperado with a sheer beauty.
Korean, a killer of men, shot deadat 21 by the long arm of the law.
That's the story anyway, butlook closer In February, 1878,
Billy wasn't an outlaw at all.
He was a deputized lawman,sworn in as a constable.
Badged pinned to his chest, legallyauthorized to serve arrest warrants.

(02:44):
He rode not as a fugitive, butas an officer of the court.
A month later, the same territorialgovernment stripped that authority
away, and the very same manbecome, became a wanted criminal.
Which Billy was real, the outlawor the lawman, or was he both?
Or?
Wyatt Earth Tombstone made him famousas the stoic Marshall who faced

(03:08):
down the Cowboys at the OK Corral.
But years earlier in Wichita,Kansas, Wyatt had been arrested
for stealing a horse in Dodge City.
He was fined for running illegalgambling operations, and after tombstone,
he drifted into bounty hunting,race fixing and shitty oil deals.
Hero, hustler, or hired gun dependson who you ask and when you ask Pat

(03:34):
Garrett, the man who killed Billy,the kid was held as the law's savior
in New Mexico, but Garrett wasno pure knight in shining spurs.
He was accused of intimidating votersstealing cattle and working backroom deals
with the very outlaws that he was supposedto stop his famous biography of Billy
the Kid Ghostwritten, sensationalized.

(03:56):
And likely a self-serving work of fictionwas Garrett, the Honest Sheriff, or just
another player in the same bloody game.
Even Wild Bill Hickok, thearchetype of a gunfighter.
Laman lived on both sides of the badge.
In Kansas, he wore a star enforcing wowwith his pistols in Missouri, he made his

(04:17):
living as a gambler and a gun for hire.
He killed some men under the color of law,others over debts or drunken quarrels.
He was admired for his charm and fearedfor his hair trigger temper the truth.
He was all of it at once.
That's the theme we'll return to againand again in Gallows and Gunfights.

(04:38):
The West wasn't a morality play.
It was a chess board where law,politics, money and violence intersected.
And the same man who stood asGuardians of order often thrived
in the shadows of disorder.
Nowhere is this clearer than inNew Mexico's Lincoln County War.
On paper, it was a businessdispute, one morill monopoly

(04:59):
against another upstart competitor.
In reality, it was a battlefield wherehired guns, politicians, sheriffs,
and future legends of out Lowerycarved Lincoln County into Graves.
The conflict birth.
The regulators, halfdeputies, half vigilantes.
Who Swo to avenging murderedRancher named John Tunstall.

(05:20):
Among them, Billy, the kid on theother side stood the house, an Irish
mercantile monopoly led by LawrenceMurphy, James Dolan, and John
Riley backed by the Santa Fe ring.
The most powerful all of warriorsand politicians in the territory.
Their allies, Sheriff's William Brady.

(05:40):
Judges willing to sign away justiceand hired guns like Jesse Evans boys
and John Kinney's, Rio Grande Posse.
The Lincoln County Warwas not good versus evil.
It was monopoly versus competition.
Corruption versus resistance withplenty of blood spilled on both sides.

(06:00):
And it is here in this war that Billy,the kids, stepped onto the stage.
Not yet as a legend.
But as a pawn in a much biggergame, over the course of this arc,
we will call this, we will callto the stand every major figure.
Dolan Murphy, Riley, MCW, Tunstall,Brady, Chisholm, Dudley, Catron, Axl.

(06:24):
And of course, Billy himself will crossexamine their lives, their choices,
their crimes, and their alliances.
We'll weigh the testimony of survivorslike George Co. The memoirs of Susan
MCs, Swen, and the damning reportsof investigators like Frank Egg Now,
and we'll ask the central question,was there ever truly a difference

(06:48):
between outlaw and laman in LincolnCounty or in the old West at all?
Because when a man could be adeputy on Monday and an outlaw
by Friday and a sheriff the nextyear, what does justice even mean?
This is where gals and gunfights begins.
The courtroom is open, the jury isseated, the old west is under oath.

(07:11):
Court is now in session.

Angela (07:17):
Hey Angela, how sleep going today?
Hi, John.
It's good.
How are you?
I'm

John (07:22):
good.
I'm great.
Actually, zero complaints

Angela (07:25):
three days in a row.
You can say.
Great.
Zero complaints.
Yeah,

John (07:28):
it's kind of cool, huh?

Angela (07:29):
I'm liking it.

John (07:31):
I'm not complaining either.
So what are your thoughts onthis new endeavor I cooked up?
I

Angela (07:37):
am interested.
I am a little upset that you'regonna be shattering the illusions
that I have on some of these peoplebecause some of the illusions are fun.

John (07:49):
They are fun and prerequisite.
Have you seen young guns?

Angela (07:53):
No.

John (07:55):
Oh my God.

Angela (07:55):
Should I leave again?
Get

John (07:57):
out.

Angela (07:57):
Get out.
Right.

John (07:58):
I can't believe you haven't seen young guns.

Angela (08:00):
I probably have.
When I was really, really little.

John (08:04):
They're getting ready to make young guns three.

Angela (08:07):
Wow.

John (08:08):
With Emilio Estevez.
Lout.
Diamond Phillips.

Angela (08:12):
Really?

John (08:13):
Yeah.
They coming back,

Angela (08:14):
huh?

John (08:15):
Yeah.
And uh, what's his nuts too from pump up?
The volume and, uh,

Angela (08:19):
Christian Slater?

John (08:19):
Yeah.
Yeah, I've seen

Angela (08:21):
that one.

John (08:22):
Unfortunately, Keefer Sutherland doesn't seem to be in the
lineup, but other than that, maybe

Angela (08:27):
he doesn't want to,

John (08:29):
but still pretty damn good to get those three back after this many years.
I mean, I can't remember when itcame out, but it was in the eighties.
Yeah, it was a long time ago.

Angela (08:37):
Yeah, so I, I probably have seen it like with my
family watching it and I just.
Was coloring and not paying attention.

John (08:45):
Such a good,

Angela (08:46):
but not recently.

John (08:48):
Very good movie.

Angela (08:49):
Not enough to quote it.

John (08:50):
So for you and the rest of
the listeners that haven't, Iwould suggest watching it because
I'm gonna be referring to thatmovie throughout this arc.
I'm Billy the Kid.
Okay, well because it is actually,that does not help me now John.
It is actually pretty freakinghistorically accurate.
I mean, Hollywood took someliberties in it for sure, but

(09:11):
it's pretty historically accurate.
Youngun's too.
A little less accurate, but

Angela (09:16):
still, I'm gonna say this is information you probably should
have told me yesterday, so I would'vewatched it last night and been prepared.

John (09:24):
What movie is
that from?

Angela (09:26):
What

John (09:26):
this would've been good information yesterday.
I'm have to think on that.
'cause that is definitely,I thought I was about

Angela (09:37):
to be an trouble.

John (09:39):
So.
Anyway.
You ready?
Spending my life in trouble.
Learn all about this.

Angela (09:44):
I

John (09:45):
feel like

Angela (09:45):
we need to get you a gavel.

John (09:47):
We might need to.
Yeah, we might need
to.
So, listeners, welcome to DarkDialogue, gallows and Gunfights.
The show where the Old West takes thewitness stand and every outlaw, laman, and
forgotten soul is put on trial by history.

Angela (10:06):
We're not here.
Totell Dime, novel mythsor Hollywood legends.
We're here to dig into the records,the testimonies, and the messy
truth, where the line between lawmanand outlaw was often paper thin.

John (10:21):
Exactly.
In this courtroom of the past,reputations rise and fall.
Some who wore badges also broke laws.
Some branded as Outlaws.
We're simply survivorsof a corrupt system.
We're here to separate myth from evidence.

Angela (10:38):
And before we dive into today's case, let's remind you, if
you're listening on Spotify, applePodcasts, YouTube, or anywhere
else, hit that follow or subscribebuttons so you don't miss a session.

John (10:50):
It's free.
It's free.
It's free.
Exactly.
And if you're on YouTube,give us a thumbs up.
If you're on Spotify orApple, leave us a review.
And wherever you are, share thisshow with someone who loves the
Old West, the real Wild West.
Not the polished version, not

Angela (11:08):
the uh, will Smith's Wild Wild West version.
Oh

John (11:12):
my God.
That movie just uh ah, ah.
As good as young guns was it justmade him make faces is as bad
as that dumb ass freaking moviewas that That thing is terrible.

Angela (11:25):
It was supposed to be, it's like anything Millbrook's
does they supposed to be No.

John (11:31):
Berg's movies are at least comic.
That's true.
Funny.
And I mean they like Really?
They would never be made today?
No.
'cause they dread the lie of politicalcorrectness and that movie just sucked.

Angela (11:45):
It just was dumb.
I was more so talking abouthis music video though.

John (11:49):
I don't know anything about that.

Angela (11:52):
Sorry.
Moving on.
Your support spreads the wordknows this community and keeps
us bringing these cases to light.

John (12:00):
Now Court is in session.
Today we turn to Lincoln County,New Mexico, where a young Englishman

(12:21):
named John Henry Tunstall dared tochallenge the monopoly of Murphy
and Dolan and paid with his life

Angela (12:28):
his murder lit the spark for one of the bloodiest conflicts in
frontier history, the Lincoln County War.
And from those ashes Rosa figure,who would become both legend
and lightning Rod Billy the kid.

John (12:44):
So Angela, why don't you start us off with a little location information,
which is as much a surprise to youas it is for everyone else but me.

Angela (12:56):
Oh, I love that.
A little like I'm sitting heregoing pages, pages, pages.
I'm just kidding.

John (13:02):
Yeah.
I give you a little bit to read.

Angela (13:03):
Just a little.

John (13:04):
You're out of practice.
I figured.

Angela (13:06):
Even practice.
Oh, you are a slave driver.

John (13:10):
I know.

Angela (13:13):
New York City in 1959 was not the towering 18.
No.

John (13:18):
Pretty sure it was 18.

Angela (13:20):
Dad, blast it.
John,
I'll read what I wanted.

John (13:27):
I mean, unless we're gonna tell the listeners that Billy
the kid was like a greaser.
Yeah.
Crowding with the SOSor something like that.
It's,

Angela (13:35):
it's, and Crips and whatnot, you know.
All right.
We'll do it John's way.
I'll read it correctly.
Let's make it bigger.
'cause apparently I'm oldand I can't see the words.
New York City in 1859, thank

Music (13:52):
you.

Angela (13:52):
Was not the towering metropolis we know today, but
it was already a restless giant.
The city was swellingwith immigrants industry.
Innovation while simmering withtension, poverty, and violence.
It was here in this turbulent, turbulentenvironment that Henry McCarthy better
known to history as Billy the kidwas born into the Irish immigrant

(14:17):
community of the Lower East Side.
By the late 1850s, New York was rapidlyexpanding northward, the Croton aqueduct.

John (14:27):
I think the Croton,

Angela (14:28):
Croton, Croton Aqueduct had begun supplying clean water.
The Otis Elevator made tallerbuildings possible and Central
Park open to the public.
In 1859, the same year, Billy the kidentered the world, but while the city's
elites strolled landscaped paths uptownand Lower East Side was a different story.

(14:50):
The Lower East Side was a different story.
Tenements cellars and alleys crammed withpoor immigrant families, many living in
conditions that bred disease and despair.
The contrast between polishedwealth and grinding poverty
defined the city's atmosphere.
The city was alive with conflict.
Five Points was infamous as a cauldron ofgangs, ethnic tension and violent riots.

(15:14):
Irish immigrants, like Billy's familywere often tr trapped in neighborhoods
marked by overcrowding and hostility,the so-called piggery district.
I have never heard that

John (15:26):
before.
No, no.
Have you watched Gangsof Gangs of New York?
Really?
Oh my gosh.
He's about to kick me out again, folks.
Yeah.
You haven't seen that movie?
I haven't.

Angela (15:38):
It's not out of, not intention.
I just haven't,

John (15:41):
it is so good.
I just haven't

Angela (15:42):
yet.

John (15:43):
Danielle D. Lewis and,
uh, I think Gene Hackman's in that.
Believe Gene Hackman.
I believe Gene Hackman and Daniel DayLewis are like the opposing gang leaders.
It all takes part in the Five points.
Yeah.
They fight each other.
I mean, and the dude, the dumb ass dudefrom um, like Stepbrothers, the one

(16:08):
that plays with Will Ferrell, that guy.

Angela (16:10):
Oh, why can't I remember his name?
All

John (16:12):
He's in that and that other douche bag that I don't
like DiCaprio, he's in there.

Angela (16:18):
You know, like Leo.

John (16:19):
No, it is like a, it is a lot of really great, it's
a freaking awesome movie.
Well worth the watch.

Angela (16:27):
Well, I'm not avoiding it on purpose.

John (16:29):
We're gonna just have, start having movie nights crying out loud.
This is getting out of control.
He

Angela (16:34):
is gonna hold me down.
Block work, orange stylewith my eyes pried open.

John (16:37):
Yep.

Angela (16:39):
The so-called piggery district was notorious for its shanties and
pig farms where hogs roamed freelythrough the muck field streets in 1859.
I'm gonna do that every time.
1859. City leaders forciblycleared these livestock pens.
A small but symbolic attempt tocivilize what reformers saw as

(17:00):
chaotic disease ridden quarter.
These were the surroundings of Billy'sinfancy, harsh, dirty, and dangerous.
On November 23rd, 1859, CatherineMcCarthy and Irish immigrant gave
birth to her son at what historiansbelieve was 70 Allen Street.

(17:21):
His father disappeared leavingWilliam Anin Catherine's companion
to fill the role of a surrogatefather while running a fruit stand.
These humble beginnings are far removedfrom the myths of the frontier outlaw.
For the first years of his life, Billy'sworld wasn't the desert or open range.
It was the crowded, chaotic streetsof Manhattan's Irish quarter

(17:45):
for working class immigrants.
Life meant scraping by tenementswere overcrowded, sanitation, nearly
non-existent and outbreaks of disease.
Common reformers were just beginningto argue against cellar dwellings,
which were often dark, damp,and unfit for human habitation.
Public health measures lagged farbehind population growth, and the

(18:07):
McCarthy's would have experiencedfirsthand the struggles of of
survival in an unforgiving city.
By 1859, new York's populationwas nearing 800,000.
A staggering figure for the timethough dwarfed by today's 8.2
million residents and more than19 million in the metro area.
Crime was rampant.

(18:28):
In 1860, the city recorded nearly66,000 arrests and 57 homicides with
gang wars and public drunkenness.
Common.
The NYPD only 14 years old,was struggling with corruption
and overwhelmed by the chaos.
In contrast, by 2025 New York averagesfewer than one murder per day with major

(18:51):
felonies, a historic at historic lows.
Compared to the 1980s and1990s, crime reporting and
policing are professionalized.
But in Billy's day, violence was woveninto the very fabric of the city.
When we picture Billy the Kid, weimagine the dusty frontier gunfights.
The outlaw legend.

(19:12):
But his story begins in a New YorkCity teaming with immigrants, gangs
and social upheaval, a city wheresurvival was itself a daily fight.
The same forces that shaped the city'sIrish immigrant communities also shaped
the boy who would one day become themost famous outlaw of the American West.

John (19:31):
Thank you, Angela.
You're welcome.
And you know, full disclosure here, theseare, these are gonna be interesting and
fun to do, but you know, I'm doing thebest I can with getting the information.
But you know, it's like William Antrim.
Uh, she might have met him in New York,but she might have met him in Indianapolis

(19:52):
and she might have met him in Wichita.
And we don't really know.
And there's like.
575 William Rums and tryingto figure out which one fits.
And he's

Angela (20:02):
just a fruit stand guy who was just hanging around

John (20:04):
that Well, that's just one of the stories there.
Okay.
There are others and, and we'll be talkingabout like Billy and his brother Joseph.
And we think that Joseph was older thanBilly, but he might've been younger.
I mean, when you're dealing with oldthis old of history and the records were
absolute shit back then, it's reallyhard to, you can't, there's a lot of

(20:29):
this stuff we just don't accurately know.
You know,

Angela (20:32):
somebody's grandma wrote all this down and it's just
in a cell somewhere reading

John (20:36):
probably, there was just recently a picture found that we
think is Billy the kid and it wouldonly be the second picture of him.

Music (20:46):
Wow.

John (20:46):
And so it hasn't fully been confirmed to me,
never fully been confirmed.
Confirmed.
But it is thought to be anotherpicture of Billy the kids.
So it's pretty cool.
So beginning this, uh, like I saidin the beginning, I'll kind of set
the scene a little bit, but this isgonna be kind of like a courtroom.
So the charge a boy abandonedtoo soon who grew into an outlaw

(21:11):
the frontier could never forget
before he was Billy, the kid beforethe Jailbreaks and the Gunfights.
He was Henry McCarty, a bright,polite, Irish kid, born into the
slums of New York City in 1859.
His exact birthday, lost to history.

(21:32):
Some say September.
Others.
November.
A baptismal record from St.Peter's Catholic Church dated
late September is the closestthing that we have to certainty.
But what matters isn't the date.
It's the setting.
A child born into a city thatdidn't care if he lived or starved.

(21:53):
The McCarty's lived in the tenement,dark, overcrowded, wreaking with
sewage, the kind of housing whereevery cough carried down the hallway.
Catherine, his mother, scraped bythrough menial jobs, taking what work
an Irish immigrant widow could get.
Violence was common, alcoholcheaper than bread, and children

(22:15):
learned early to fight or disappear.
For Henry and his younger brotherJoseph, possibly older childhood
meant running errands, dodging oldergangs of boys, and watching neighbors
waste away from disease or drink.
As for Henry's father.
That's a ghost story.
Patrick McCarty is sometimesnamed, but records don't agree.

(22:39):
Some say he died in New York,others placed him in Indiana.
Still, others believehe simply walked out.
Another Irish Hemi crushed by the propoverty and prone to vanishing for Henry.
The result was the same.
A boy left behind.
He lost his father twice, once todeath and once to indifference.

Angela (23:03):
After Billy the kid's birth in New York, his family spent time
in Indiana, a place far differentfrom the chaotic lower East side.
In the late 1850s and early 1860s,Indianapolis was a modern or modest
Midwestern capital, steadily growing, butstill closer to a frontier town than a
bustling metropolis for a boy who wouldone day be remembered as an outlaw.

(23:26):
These years were spent in aquieter setting shaped by farmland,
churches, and small town rhythms.
By 1860, Indianapolis countedjust 18,611 residents with
Marion County at around 39,855.
The numbers merely doubled within adecade showing how rapidly the city was

(23:48):
drawing in people trade and opportunity.
Compare that to today when Indianapolis.
Indianapolis, let's emphasize allthe Sallows when Indianapolis is
home to nearly 877,000 people andthe metro area nears 2 million.

(24:09):
No thank you.
Yeah, and Billy's childhood, thoughthe capitol was still small enough
that neighbors knew one anotherand major events could ripple
through the entire community.
Indianapolis was still defining itself.
Streets were tree-lined.
The town core was developing, and farms orwooded hills sat just beyond city limits.

(24:30):
Civic life revolved around churches,schools, and small businesses.
As the state capital, Indianapoliswas beginning to attract political
and economic attention, but it lackedthe industrial chaos of New York.
Life was steadier, slower and more local.
Yet change was clearly underway asrailroads and comm commerce pushed

(24:51):
through, pushed the city forward.
Crime in 1860s in Indianapolis was nothinglike the gang wars of five points or
the violent unrest of the larger cities.
Population density was lower inpoverty while present, didn't
concentrate into explosive slums.

(25:13):
Most arrests involved petty theft,drunkenness, or neighborhood disputes.
Major crimes like homicide were rare, wererare enough to be individually recorded
in local papers and courthouse ledgers.
The city's law enforcement structurewas basic, relying more on local
justice than large organized policing.

(25:35):
Fast forward to today, andIndianapolis is a very different story.
In 2024, the city logged 209 homicides,marking the fifth year above 200.
By the first half of 2025, thoughnumbers had dropped nearly 30% with
57 homicides from January to June.
Property crime and assault and assaultsremain pressing issues, but the scale

(26:00):
of urban crime today is dramaticallylarger, reflecting the city's
massive growth and modern challenges.
In Billy's childhood, Indianapoliswas a close-knit community.
Churches anchored social life,small businesses sustained families,
and most people still lived withinwalking distance of farmland.

(26:22):
Violence was rare, and when ithappened, it became local lore.
Compare that to modern Indianapolis,a sprawling metropolitan hub,
diverse and complex where lawenforcement is professionalized.
Crime tracking is systematic, andthe challenges of poverty, drugs, and
inequality echo across neighborhoods.

(26:43):
Billy the kids, Indiana years placedhim in a very different environment
than his birthplace in New York.
Here, instead of riots and gangwarfare, he would've seen fields,
churches, and quiet streets.
Yet Indianapolis wasalso a city on the rise.
Growing fast, changing quickly, andsetting the stage for the restless
movement westward, that would'veeventually shaped his destiny.

John (27:06):
Building the kid's family life in Indiana was shaped by his mother and
Catherine McCarty's determination andentrepreneurial spirit, which stood out
as remarkable for a woman of the period.
Catherine managed a laundry businessand acquired significant real estate
and uncommon accomplishment for a womanin the 1860s, which provided her sons

(27:27):
a stable if modest home environment.
And you know, it's really interesting'cause I've been reading about Billy
the Kid for pretty much my whole life.
I've probably read atleast five or six books.
That said that she was a prostituteand that he was basically a
homeless orphan all of his life.

Angela (27:46):
That's what I have memories of.

John (27:47):
Yeah, not at all.
She was actually a prettyfreaking outstanding woman.
Especially well goodon her period of time.
So in Indianapolis, Catherine wasknown for running a hand laundry, often
mentioned in local histories and archives.
She also bought and owned land,sometimes purchasing property.

(28:07):
Adjacent to her partner, WilliamAntrim Holdings, and later sold
multiple lots in a sizable farmbefore the family's move west.
Her ability to independently own landand operate a business set her apart
and provided rare ocon, rare economicsecurity for her two sons, Billy or

(28:29):
Henry and Joseph, who went by Josie.

Angela (28:33):
Do we know how we thought Billy?

John (28:35):
We will.

Angela (28:36):
Okay, good.
I need to know

John (28:39):
with within Marion County in later Wichita, those who visited Catherine's
household described a welcomingenvironment, praising her hospitality
and the upbringing of her voice.
She was noted as the only woman to signthe 1870 petition to incorporate the
city of Wichita, a sign of her respectedstatus and involvement in civic life.

(29:03):
Though she faced the dual burdens ofwidowhood and single motherhood, her
refor, her resourcefulness gained, orthe admiration of many in the community.
Now, Billy is a boy in Indiana.
He was known then as Henry,and he lived with his widowed
mother and her and his brother.

(29:24):
So while Miss sometimes paints Billyas wild from an early age, historical
evidence indicates that he was viewedby teachers, neighbors, and classmates
as a polite and very bright child.
He likely attended localschool and later accounts note.
His precocious and hisability to read well.

(29:44):
Traits admired by his acquaintances inyouth and confirmed later by biographers.
Although records of specific interactionswith teachers and classmates are sparse.
Billy was remembered in his childhoodas mischievous but not malicious.
Embodying the.
Gayman and a Pucky Street kidmore charming than threatening.

(30:07):
Catherine was respected as a single motherwho made her household a warm gathering
place, and Billy was described aspossessing a frank open continence and was
remembered as an intelligent social child,not as an outcast or a troublemaker.
Local records suggest the McCartyfamily was viewed sympathetically and

(30:27):
positively, especially consideringtheir Irish immigrant status and
Catherine's unique achievement.
So in summary, life for Billy, the kids'family in Indiana was characterized
by Catherine's rare independence inland and business and supported home
environments, and a reputation forrespectability with young Billy looked

(30:50):
upon as a capable and likable kid withinhis community and his school, and so.
Catherine just started thisbusiness in town, and it was a hand
laundry, but she worked her ass off.
These guys would bringtheir filthy ass clothes.
And this is the daywhere it was Wash Basins.

(31:10):
Mm-hmm.
And Washboards.
Yep.
And she would work her ass off allday long scrubbing these clothes.
And then they said that during the summershe had clothes lines all over where she
would hang the clothes to dry, but in thewintertime she'd have to drag them all the
way up to the attic where she had clotheslines strung over in the attic so that
she could hang them all up there and dry.

(31:31):
And then William Rum bought a pieceof ground outside of town, but it
wasn't very long before Catherinebought the neighboring property.
And then she bought severalneighboring properties.
She was just kind of buildingher land, her empire.
William Rum was doing the same thing.
So the couple had boughtsignificant land holding.

(31:51):
That's pretty cool.
Before they left Indianapolis.
And so.
Catherine refused to let the citybury her children, and in 1865 she
packed up Henry and Josie and pushedWest and it could have, and Josie.
Huh?
And Josie.
That's what he went by.
It was Julie, but he went by Josie.
Yeah.
So, got it.

(32:12):
Henry and Josie.
And she, it, it was said thatit might have been that the
city was impacting her kids.
She didn't want 'em to getin trouble and stuff, but.
This was also when she wasdiagnosed with tuberculosis.
And so working in the laundry,in the humidity and stuff.
In the laundry, yeah.

(32:32):
Would've aggravated that.
Mm-hmm.
And so it's likely that her doctorstold her, which was very common,

Angela (32:38):
go somewhere dry.

John (32:39):
Yeah.
Go to Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico.
I mean, Colorado became a ha.

Angela (32:45):
Yes, it did.

John (32:46):
For what they call Lungers back then.
Mm-hmm.
She was a lunger, and so they probablytold her, you need to go west and
maybe you'll live a bit longer.
Mm-hmm.
So that is the most likely reasonthat they decided to leave.
And so they left Indianapolisand then we're in Kansas,

(33:07):
in Wichita, Kansas by 1870.
And each stop was a gamble.
Better climate, cheaper land,steadier work for a time.
They even went and lived in Denver.
And so it's not.
We can't say absolutely certainthat they lived in Denver.
Mm-hmm.
But one of the guys that we're gonnabe talking about who actually was in

(33:29):
the Lincoln County War with Billy, thenhe didn't die and he lived on, and he
died in like the thirties or somethinglike that would go on to say that
Billy told him stories about livingin Denver for a short period of time.
So very likely they hada short stay in Denver.
And like many Irish families,they followed faint trails of
opportunity often where otherimmigrants had already settled.

(33:53):
And so along the way, Katherine,somewhere along here, she met William,
uh, William Henry Harrison rum.
And this was definitelybefore India or Indianapolis.
And.
Or in Indianapolis, one of the two.
Right?
Because they were most certainly acouple in Indianapolis, and he was no

(34:17):
knight in shining armor, but he providedcompanionship, if not much stability.
By 1873, the family had reachedSanta Fe, Catherine already coughing
from tuberculosis, married Antrimat the First Presbyterian church.
Henry and Josie were there watchingas their mother tied her fate to a

(34:37):
man who would later abandoned them.
And then from there they headedto Silver City, a rock mining town
perched on the edge of the desert.
Forget any image of safety.
Silver City was afrontier, was a frontier.
Crossroads of miners, drifters, gamblers,and saloons and the McCarty's are now.

(34:58):
The rumms lived in a modestcabin on Main Street.
Their neighbors more often brawlersand drinkers than stable families.
So like we said, Billy, the kid was bornHenry McCarty and he spent his formative
teenage years in Silver City, New Mexico,a period crucial to his transformation.

(35:18):
From that quiet student andinto an infamous outlaw Silver
City in the early 1870s was arugged, fast growing mining town.
Still surrounded by wilderness andmarked by lawlessness and opportunity.
Billy, his mother, Catherine, and hisstepfather William Antrim, arrived in
Silver City in 1873, seeking a climateto ease Catherine's tuberculosis.

(35:45):
Silver City was a lively communitycentered around the silver mining
boom, full of saloons, mercantil,basic churches and cabins.
Catherine quickly established herselfrenting and baking to support her sons
and running a laundry for extra income.
Their home was a modest logcabin, and daily life involved.
Plenty of work for both Billy andhis younger or older brother Joseph.

Angela (36:11):
So she went to a better climate, but still running laundry.

John (36:15):
Yeah, but it's gonna be a lot different in New Mexico than it was.
I

Angela (36:19):
mean, true.
But still.

John (36:21):
Okay.
I mean, yeah, she did what she had to do.
I mean, yeah, make money for her.
You do know.
So Billy and Joseph attendedlocal schools, A point that
marks Billy as more settled andliterate than legend would suggest.
Right.
Teachers described him as polite,helpful, and a competent student
who enjoyed singing and reading.

(36:44):
Billy.
Yeah, he was also remembered as quote, nomore trouble than any of the other boys.
He was willing to do odd jobsand generally trustworthy.
Notably, a hotel managerclaimed that Billy was the only
kid who never stole from him.

Angela (37:01):
Okay.

John (37:01):
Socially, Billy integrated with other children
and this part is really key.
He learned Spanish fluently duringthis period of time, which would
help him tremendously later in life.
And he adopted the customs of thelocal Mexican American population,
including their dance and their music.

(37:23):
And it said that heabsolutely loved the culture.
He loved their, the way they dressed.
He loved their language, he lovedthe way they danced and their music.
He loved everything about them.

Angela (37:34):
More of the stories that I hear about him or know about
him, he's more that than Irish,

John (37:40):
very much so.

Angela (37:41):
So when, when you were starting to say Irish, I was like, what?
Yep.

John (37:45):
But

Angela (37:45):
yeah.
And

John (37:46):
just

Angela (37:46):
the process and keep going.

John (37:48):
Yep.
So, but unfortunately for Billy, andI mean really for history, because
we would not know Billy that at all.
We probably wouldn't know a thingabout him if it wasn't for this.
And that is that in 1874, CatherineSuccumbeded to tuberculosis leaving
Billy age 14 at the time, and his brotherJoseph, either older or younger, orphaned,

(38:13):
William Antram, never a committed father,sold the family home and placed the boys
in foster care before leaving for Arizona.
And I mean, in actuality,he was in Arizona, Mike.
Yeah.
And then he just never came back.

Angela (38:28):
And he was just like, eh.

John (38:30):
Yeah, so Billy was forced into menial jobs, washing dishes, waiting
tables, and living in boarding houses.
And this period marked the startof his more precarious existence.
So descriptions from Silver Cityportrayed Billy as Slender, about
five foot eight, 120 to 140 poundswith clear blue eyes, smooth cheeks,

(38:53):
somewhat prominent front teeth and largewrists that help him escape handcuffs.
Many times he was seen regular.
He was regularly seen in a sugar loaf,sombrero with a decorative band, a
distinct fashion among local youth.
Billy was known for his livelypersonality, enjoyment of dance and

(39:14):
song and humor, but his mother'sdeath loss and hardship definitely
hardened him for the struggles ahead.
And are you familiar with thefamous picture of Billy the Kid?
Kinda leaning on a gun.
He has a top hat on and,

Angela (39:29):
uh, yeah, it sounds

John (39:31):
so if you ever look at that picture, he looks really homely.
Mm-hmm.
He looks ass at ugly actually.
Yeah.
In truth, um, everybody describedhim as like a really handsome guy.
So it's just a shitty picture.
But it's interesting because it'sa tintype and so it was, tintypes

(39:53):
could be viewed either fromthe backside or the front side.
Well, for years it was showing backwards,so everybody thought he was left-handed.
Oh, the picture was backwards.
But when you turn the tin type around theright way, he's actually right-handed.
But there's all kinds of stuff thatclaim that he was left-handed true.

(40:16):
He wasn't left-handed.
But that's where that comes from.
So very interesting.
And obviously it's a kindof a poor picture, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Because it's an old tin type.
Yeah.
That's the only thing that we have is,

Angela (40:27):
and if everybody was looking at it backwards the whole
time, of course it'd be ugly,

John (40:31):
right?
Yeah.
So, but even the picture turned around,he looks pretty home, but that is
not the descriptions that we have.
So he was actually described asa really handsome guy that the
girls just kind of swooned over.
So swoon, there's a word.
Yeah.
So Silver City's crime environmentwas chaotic with frequent minor

(40:54):
thefts, assault and drunken brawls.
Law enforcement was minimaland often based on personal
relationships with the townspeople.
Billy's first notorious acts werepetty theft and his daring Joe
rig, and they were seen as youthfulrebellion rather than hardened
criminality in the tight-knit community.

(41:15):
So Billy left Silver City soonafter his jailbreak, finding little
support in increasingly turning tooutlaw ways for the rest of his life.
Silver City remained one of the fewplaces where Billy was seen, not
just as an outlaw, but as a likable,intelligent and sympathetic youth.

(41:37):
So the verdict of time.
From that point on, silverCity was behind him.
He left on foot heading intothe desert, and by the spring of
1876, he would surface an Arizonaterritory calling himself kid Antrum.
This was the turning.
The polite child remembered byhis school teachers was gone.

(42:00):
What remained was a boy withoutparents, without a home, without
protection, a boy shaped by tenement,slums, desert winds, and betrayals too
heavy for his age, and it's in thatcrucible that the outlaw was forged.
Henry McCarty faded, and Billythe kid, stepped into the light.

(42:22):
Pistol in hand, smile on his face, andhe is named etched forever into the
gallows record of the American frontier.
Talking about that side has Billy thekid a little bit in the fall of 1875.

(42:44):
Henry McCarty was still morechild than criminal, but hunger.
And so, you know, just to kinda set thescene, this is right after Antrim, his
stepdad just bailed on these two kids.
Yeah.
And you, you're leaving 14 year olds inSilver City, New Mexico in the 1870s.

(43:04):
Just good luck.
Yeah.
You know, it wasn't like we hadwelfare that could come in, step in
and help 'em out, you know, so theywere put into an impossible situation.
And you know, like I said,hunger doesn't care about age.
It doesn't give a shit about.
Anything other than I'mhungry and I want to eat.

(43:25):
And so on September the 16th, the firstanniversary of his mother's death,
Henry was arrested for stealing food.
It was survival, it wasn't greed.
Sheriff Harvey Whitehill locked himup, but the offense barely registered
in the town where kids stole daily.
And the real turning point came.

(43:45):
Then 10 days after that, when Billy wasegged on by prankster George Schaefer.
And so Henry and a friend brokeinto a Chinese laundry and they
took clothes and two pistols.
Not much loot, but in the west,stealing firearms was no joke.
Still is.

(44:06):
Still.
Yeah, still.
And so Henry was tossedinto the Silver City jail.
And, but it's interesting becausehe was so young, they didn't
actually put him in a cell.
They just kinda let him roam out in thecorridor, um, outside the cells and like a

Angela (44:22):
cell daycare situation, just, you know.

John (44:25):
Yeah.
Essentially like it, like if youthink of the movie Green Mile.
Yeah.
You know, he is like, yeah,we usually have a few lights
burning out in the corridor.
Well, Billy ran aroundout in the corridor.
That's where he was running around at.
Okay.
And so, um, and so finally he just decidedthat he wasn't gonna wait around anymore.
So the kid though, no one calledhim that yet, he just climbed up the

(44:48):
jail's, chimney, wriggled into thenight and vanished into the desert.
And so the Silver City Herald carriedthe story, his first appearance in
print, a local legend in the making.
The boy who'd slipped the bars like smoke.
Henry fled West to chloride flats andthen farther still in Silver City.

(45:09):
Never saw him again.
So by the spring of 1876,Henry turned up in Arizona.
He was small, still youthful,still boyish, and the nickname came
quickly, like I said before, kidAntrim, he found work near camp Grant
wrangling, livestock, drifting betweenranches, gambling when he could.

(45:31):
But Arizona already was pullinghim toward crime and he fell in
with John r Mackey, who is a formerCalvary man, turned horse thi.
And together they ran horses off.
Soldiers gambling theirfreedom for a quick profit.
And some stories claim thatHenry even clashed with Apaches.

(45:52):
During this time, an ambush in theGuadalupe Mountains where he and Tom
O'Keeffe fought to save their lives isthe only confirmed instance of Billy
the kid in combat with Native Americans,that it was a brush with death that
no doubt hardened his reputation evenmore and trouble wasn't far behind.

(46:14):
So on March 25th, 1877, Henry and Mackeywere arrested for stealing calvary
horses and shackled under the name KidAntrim Henry was locked at Camp Grant,
but once again, he slipped the noose.
While guards were distracted at a localdance, Henry broke free and disappeared.

(46:34):
Another escape, anotherheadline written in the dust.
So Billy, the Kids first recordedkilling of Frank Wendy Cahill was a
defining moment that irrevocably sethim on a path to being an outlaw legend.
And the incident took place on August the17th, 1877 at the, at George Atkins Saloon

(46:58):
in Bonita Camp Grant in Arizona territory.
It was deeply shaped by the tensesocial dynamics of the wild frontier.
So Billy the kid, and as we've saidover and over again, it gets confusing
'cause the freaking name changes.
It does,

Music (47:14):
yeah.

John (47:15):
At this time he's still going by Henry McCarty and he was working as a
teamster at Camp Grand Army Post, andhe was slender, he was an affable team.
At this point, he is described as beingfive foot eight and about 135 pounds.
So pretty slight guy.
He was well liked at the campfor his wit and his sociability.

(47:36):
In sharp contrast, his antagonist, FrankP Windy Cahill, was a large, muscular
and Ill tempered Irish immigrant whois said to have stood about six foot
two and weighed 225 pounds, and hewas notorious for bullying, Billy both
verbally and physically, and kale, oftenbelittled Billy calling him a pimp, which

(48:01):
frustrated and embarrassed the youngerman in front of all of the other guys,
you know, and so on the night of Augustthe 17th, 1877, Billy and Cahill got
into yet another heated dispute during orshortly after a poker game at the saloon.
Insults were traded.
Billy called Cahill a son of abitch, Cahill retaliated by picking

(48:26):
Billy up and slamming him to theground and then jumping on top of
him and beating him about the face.
And witnesses later said that Cahillwas attempting to quote, teach the
kid a lesson, using his size andstrength to humiliate him physically
so pinned and being brutally assaulted.
Billy managed in de desperation to wrigglehis hand to his revolver and he fired a

(48:51):
single shot hitting Cahill in the stomach.
He then squirmed free and fled the scene.
Cahill died on the following day fromthe wound, and witnesses attested
that Billy acted in self-defense.
One recounted quote, he had no choice.
He had to use his equalizer.
Remarkably is Cahill Lee dying.

(49:12):
He reportedly stated that he wasresponsible for the fight and so.
Though the law might have recognizedthe context is self-defense.
Western Frontier Justicewas swift and unforgiving.
Murder justified or not,was a hanging offense.
And Billy didn't wait for the authorities.
He fled Camp Grant immediatelybecoming a fugitive.

(49:36):
So officially, local Justice Miles Woodconsidered the killing unjustifiable
and issued a warrant for Billy'sarrest under the name Kid Antrum.
So by then, also known as Williamh Bonnie and there is another name.
So yeah, Billy's, Billy snuck back a fewdays later, but was caught and detained

(49:59):
in camp in the Camp Grant Car Guardhouse.
But before Laman could arrive totransfer him, Billy escaped once
again and he crossed back into NewMexico territory forever, branded
as an outlaw and a murderer.
So Billy, the kid's first killingwas both a tragic end point.

(50:22):
End point and a fateful beginningof his journey as an outlaw.
I mean, it really is whatmade him an outlaw, right?
Unveiling themes of survival,lawlessness and frontier retribution that
pervaded his short, but infamous life.
And so I think, I think looking athis story, it's very easy to say,

(50:42):
well, first of all, we have no clue.
But had he, he not killed Wendy Cahill,I could see, uh, it's very likely that
he could have just gone on working andmaybe never would've become an outlaw.
Yeah, all, I mean, he had stolen horsesand stuff like that, but he was working

(51:03):
a job during this period of time.
He might've just gone straight,but this killing really changed his
trajectory, but only the first time.
'cause there's another onethat's gonna change it.
Okay.
For a good.
But what KL did in Arizona closing in,Henry fled back to New Mexico, but he

(51:23):
did not come back as Henry McCarty.
He came back as William h Bonnie.
So why that name?
The truth has been debated ever since.
Some say that he took William fromhis stepfather, William Antrim, and
Bonnie from his mother's maiden name.
Others insist that Bonnie may have beenhis father's true surname or that he

(51:46):
borrowed it from another family tie.
There are even accounts suggesting thatCatherine once married a man named William
Bonnie, but the records are unclear.
What is clear is that by the fall of 1877.
Henry understood something, andthat was his old name was dangerous.
McCarty was tied to arrests,escapes, and a killing in Arizona.

(52:11):
So Kid Antrim was too easy totrace and so to survive and to
confuse the law and maybe to startagain, he needed reinvention.
And so he became William h Bonnie.
Weird.
It was a practical step.
Outlaws and gamblers use aliases likecurrency, but it was also symbolic

(52:33):
because with the name, with the namechange came a new chapter drifting into
the orbit of John Tunstall, a man whogave him not just a job but dignity and
for abandoned so often that mattered.
Bonnie's new name carried weight.
It was severing.
It was the severing of ties with theboy who once ran errands for neighbors

(52:56):
and wrote little stories in SilverCity, and it was the mark of an
outlaw stepping into history stage.
So by late 1877, Bonnie was ridingwith Jesse Evans gang called The Boys,
and he was stealing cattle, runningwith wrestlers, and moving between
Silla and seven Rivers country.

(53:18):
For a brief time, he even crossed pathswith the cattle barren John Chisholm,
a giant in the feud, already smolderingagainst Murphy and Dolan's house.
Bonnie's Spanish gave himreach that others did not have.
He could talk to Vaqueros Ranch handsand Mexican settlers earning their trust.

(53:39):
He wasn't just another drifter, he wasa bridge between cultures, a bridge that
would matter when the shooting war came.
The faithful moment came when Billywas caught stealing horses from
John Tin to John Henry Tunsell'sRanch hauled off and jailed.
He might've expected what alwaysfollowed charges, time behind

(54:03):
bars, and maybe a hanging down theline, but this time was different.
Tongue still himself came to thejail and he was young himself,
only 24, but he carried himselfwith the polish of his English
upbringing, where others saw thief.
He saw something else.
Billy was polite.

(54:25):
He was literate, he was sharp, witted,respectful, even winning chains.
He didn't spit curses at authority.
He conversed with it.
Tunstall was struck enough to make adecision that changed the boy's life.
He offered him work, real work,a job as a cowboy and a gunman.

(54:46):
So instead of charges, Tunstall gaveBilly something that no one else
ever had, and that was a chance heprovided him with a horse, a saddle,
and a Winchester 73 rifle gifts, rareenough on the frontier, but absolutely
astounding for a former horse thief.
And more than tools, theywere symbols of trust.

(55:08):
Billy accepted without hesitation,and for the first time since his
mother's death, he wasn't justdrifting, he felt like he belonged.
Constable's generosity forged abond that would become unbreakable.
Billy came to see him as a fatherfigure, the first man he later
claimed, who treated him, quotelike I was decent and white.

(55:31):
End quote.
Tunstall saw something in Billy too.
He once said, quote, that'sthe finest lead I ever met.
He's a revelation to me.
To me every day and woulddo anything to please me.
I'm going to make a manout of that boy yet.
End quote.
So on the ranch, Billy worked tirelessly.
He rode, he tended cattle.

(55:52):
He guarded property against the MurphyDolan's wrestlers, and quickly earned
the praise of Tunsell and his foreman.
Dick Brewer around campfires.
Tunsell told stories of England oftrade and ranching of how to manage
land with vision rather than with fear.
For Billy, it was like hearing from aworld that he'd never known and never

(56:14):
would have if it wasn't for Tunstall.
And in Brewer, Billy found not justa boss, but a big brother with them.
He wasn't just a drifter or athief, he was part of a family.
So this period marked morethan just steady work.
It was the moment that HenryMcCarty, alias kid Antrum, fully

(56:36):
embraced the name William h Bonnie.
The name was a shield, a new identityto match the new life that Constellate
offered, and whether Billy came fromfamily ties, his mother's maiden name,
or his stepfather's first name, orwas simply a convenient invention.
It didn't matter anymore becauseit was his name now, and it

(56:57):
tied him to this new chapter.
The practical reason was survival.
Fugitives lived and died by aliases.
But for Billy, the timing mattered.
He took Bonnie as he tookAl's hand as a new beginning.
So the verdict of time in thejailhouse mating two lives crossed

(57:19):
a young English rancher with visionand wealth, and a runaway boy with
nothing but a quick smile, a fasterdraw, and a hunger for dignity.
Tuntable gave Billy something no oneelse had respect, a horse, a saddle,
a rifle, and above all, trust Billygave back what he always gave fiercely

(57:42):
and without hesitation, loyalty.
That loyalty would turn to vengeancebecause when Tunstall was murdered
in February of 1878, it wasn'tjust the killing of a rancher.
For Billy, it was the executionof the only man who ever saw
the boy inside the outlaw.
And from that day forward, theLincoln County War was no longer

(58:05):
business or politics or monopoly.
For Billy, it was personal.
John Henry Tunsell was born onMarch 6th, 1853 in Hackney, London.
His family prospered through internationaltrade and land speculation, wealthy

(58:25):
enough for comfort, but not aristocracy.
John grew up amid the genteelorder of ize park, well-schooled,
curious, and restless.
As a teenager, he followed his father toBritish Columbia, where he learned the
rhythms of trade and property management.
These lessons, balancing books.

(58:47):
Judging land, calculating riskwould later guide his ventures
in the American southwest.
Tunstall wanted morethan inherited comfort.
He left England, drifting firstto Canada and then to California.
By 1876, he was drawn to New Mexicowhere land was cheap, opportunity,
vast, and politics feral.

(59:09):
In Santa Fe, he met AlexanderMCs, Swen, who was a Canadian
born lawyer, estranged from hisformer employers, Murphy and Dolan.
The two men, one with capitalwith the other, with legal
expertise found common cause.
Both despised monopoly, both hungeredfor a fair system in Lincoln.

(59:30):
With big Sweden at his side infinancial backing from Cattle King
John Chisholm Tunstall built a rivalempire, a store, a bank, a ranch.
His model was simple, fairer credit,lower prices, and honest dealings.
And in the next episode we'll betalking about the competition and,

(59:51):
but just quickly, just so everybodyunderstands, the Murphy Dolan
cabal was known as the House, okay?
And they were Irishand they were Catholic.
And that becomes important because notonly does this become a war between

(01:00:11):
two rival companies, it was alsoCatholics against the Protestants,
the same as the Irish War thatraged for years and years and years.
Okay?
So there's a lot going on here, but.
The Murphy Dolan faction was knownas the House, and they had basically
been here for quite some time.
They controlled all of the stores,the banking, and there was a group

(01:00:34):
of politicians known as the Santa FeRing, which were basically a bunch
of crooked bastards that just, andso the Santa Fe ring was in bed with
the Murphy Dolan faction, who alsoowned the sheriff's and the judges.
And then John Chisholm, who Idoubt you've ever seen that movie.
It's an old, it's an oldJohn Wake be Chisholm.

(01:00:55):
Really good one.
But that's the guy thatwe're talking about.
Chisholm was actually more onthe side of the Mc Swen faction.
And so as we kind of go throughthis, we're not gonna get into
the Murphy Dolan side tonight.
We'd be here all night.
We're gonna be here for a while anyway.
But we would definitely be here all night.
But just so to kind of set the ground, so.

(01:01:16):
You know, we understand all kindof at least what's going on.
We have a monopoly currently set up, knownone as the House and Tons Limb, MC Swain.
Or basically trying to setup the competition to that.
And their idea was, you know, theywere gonna offer credit the same as
the house did, but they were gonnaoffer it on fairer terms, lower

(01:01:39):
interest, all of that kinda stuff.
And so that's all, that's also definitelygonna cut into the house's business.
So that's the driving force behind what'sgonna become the Lincoln County War.
Okay.
So for small ranchers and vaqueros,suffocated by Murphy and Dolan's terms,

(01:02:00):
Tunstall was salvation for the house.
He was an existential threat, hiscultural manner and protestantized
deep into ethnic rivalries.
Irish Catholic Monopolyversus Anglo Protestant.
Upstart and Tunsil hired an armed loyalcowboys for protection and among them
was a wiry Spanish speaking youth.

(01:02:23):
Knowing then as William h Poi and historywould remember him as Billy the Kid.
So we'll get into all a lot of thestuff that, um, that happened during,
um, that led up to all of this.
So I'm just kind laying thegroundwork right now, but, um.

(01:02:47):
I gotta mention that on Februarythe 18th, 1878, John Town stole,
rode out with several hands and thestory is as broad as everything else.
So, you know, some people say hewent out to check his livestock.
Others say that he wasout riding with the boys.
Still the, there's the young gunstory, which they didn't just make

(01:03:11):
up, and it was that they were offon a, at a celebration in the movie.
It was New Year's, but they were offat a celebration and were riding home.
My research makes me believethat the truth of the matter was.
There was a lot of legal wranglinggoing on because of an insurance
dispute that MCs Swen was a part of.

(01:03:31):
John Dale had no part of it whatsoever,and we'll get much deeper into it.
I'll explain it all, but essentially iswhat happened is MCs Swen had taken some
money and he was refusing to turn it overto the house and they were demanding it.
It was an insurance settlement,and the people who were the heirs
of the person that died were inGermany and he was saying, no,

(01:03:53):
this belongs to them in Germany.
And the house was saying, no, itneeds to come to settle our accounts.
He wouldn't give it to 'em.
So they go to a judge, and a judgebasically gives them permission to take
John Tunsell's property to pay the debt ofMc Swen is a totally convoluted, insane.

(01:04:14):
Legal maneuver.
That can only happen whenthe judge is in your pocket.
Yeah, but I tell that because what Ithink the real story is, is Tunstall
believe that all of this could behandled legally and in the court system.
And so when he got the demand to bringhorses to turn over to the house to
settle this debt, him and the him andthe cowboys were actually driving those

(01:04:37):
horses to turn them in when this occurred.
Okay.
And so what this is, is SheriffBrady authorized a posse.
Included in that posse was JesseEvans, who ran the gang, the boys
who Billy the kid rode with andstole cattle with for a while.
So he basically deputized criminalsand John Hill, or Tom Hill was

(01:05:03):
another one of them, and sent thesecriminals out to act as a posse and
commandeered resources from John Tal.
So they were told that they can goseize Tunsell's horses, and they
is, what happened is they ambushedhim on the open range, right?
And John Henry, Henry Tunsell wasshot in the head at close range.

(01:05:28):
His body was left sprawled in thedust spectacles still in his pocket,
and he was just 24 years old.
And so the killing wasabsolutely no accident.
It was an assassinationorchestrated to crush opposition
to the house once and for all.
And instead it lit a fuse.

(01:05:48):
So when Tunsell's Cowboys learned ofhis death, grief turned to fury and
they buried him with solemn vows.
And then they formed agroup called the Regulators.
And that group was led by Dick Brewer.
Who was Charlie Sheen in theYoung, in Young Guns, and it
was joined by Billy, the kid whowas his brother, Emilio Esteve.

(01:06:10):
And their mission was notjust justice by court.
It was vengeance by the gun.
So within weeks, LincolnCounty was drenched in blood.
The murder of Totell was the sparkthat turned lawsuits into warfare.
So the verdict of time,John Henry Tunstall came to
Lincoln as an entrepreneur,an idealist, and an outsider.

(01:06:32):
He believed in fairness in law,and in the promise that honest
business could defeat monopoly.
His murder proved otherwise.
History remembers him as the symbolof principle undone by violence.
His death shattered illusionsof peace and transformed Billy
the Kid from Cowboy to Avenger.

(01:06:53):
Tunsell's name jurors as the martyr whoseblood baptized the Lincoln County War.
So the verdict on John Henry Tunstall wassealed in blood, but every trial has two
sides and every crusade has its counsels.
If Tunstall was the heart of the challengeto the house, Alexander McSwain was

(01:07:17):
its voice and its architect, a lawyer.
By training a man of faith and restlessconviction, McSwain transformed grief
into litigation, loss into resilience.
It was through his contracts, hispetitions, his appeals to higher law
that the struggle in Lincoln Countyfound not only rifles in the street, but

(01:07:40):
arguments in the courtroom where Tunsell'sdeath lit the fire Mc Sweeney's pen
and presence gave that fire direction.
To understand the war that followed,we must call the next witness.
The man who stood, not with a gunin his hand, but with statutes Ritz,
and the stubborn belief that the lawitself might yet restrain corruption.

(01:08:05):
So Alexander Anderson McSwain was bornon June 15th, 1837 in Canada, likely on
Prince Edward Island or in Nova Scotia.
He was of Scottish descent.
He, he was said to have preachedas a Presbyterian minister.
In his youth.
Though records blur in rumor.

(01:08:25):
What is certain is that he did study law,at least briefly in St. Louis, Missouri.
In 1873, he married Susan Hummerin Atchison, Kansas, and together
they settled first in Eureka,Kansas before drifting westward.
But by 1875, the MCs Swains arrivedin Lincoln County, New Mexico, where

(01:08:47):
Alexander accepted a position asattorney for the most powerful men in
town, Lawrence Murphy and James Dolan.
So at first, McSwain wasindispensable to the house.
He managed contracts,claims, and disputes.
But when Emil Fritz died in 1874,McSwain was set to collect his

(01:09:08):
$10,000 life insurance policy.
But when he returned, like Isaid, he refused to release the
funds to Murphy and Dolan legally.
He said the money belonged to Fritz'sheirs in Germany, not to the house.
It was Techni.
It was a technicality to sum a betrayalto others, to Murphy and Dolan.

(01:09:29):
It was outright theft.
The feud escalated quickly.
Murphy and Dublin accused MCs,Swain of embezzlement with Sheriff
Brady in the Santa Fe ring.
At their back, they secured Ritzto attach McSweeney's property
and even assets belonging tohis friend and future partner.
Like I said, John Tunstall,the message was clear.

(01:09:50):
Resist the house and the law will destroy.
So in 1876, MC Swen found his answerwhen he partnered with John Tunstall,
who was the young English rancherthat we just got done talking about.
Mc Swen brought his legal mind.
Tunstall brought money and respectabilitytogether with the backing from
the Cattle Bear and John Chisholm.

(01:10:11):
They opened that rival store, bank, ranch.
All the competing things andtheir practices were fair.
Like I said.
As the few deepened MCs,Swen remained at the center.
A lawyer turned faction leader whenMurphy and Dolan hired the Jesse
Evans gang and Kenny's men andthe Seven Rivers Warriors to Raid.

(01:10:34):
And Russell MCs, Swen and Tussle armedtheir own cowboys for protection.
These men included Billy, thekid, Dick Brewer, Frank and
George Coe, Fred Waite and others.
They were deputized by a sympatheticjustice of the peace, and they
became known as the regulator.
So this is the convoluted mess that Ialluded to in the beginning segment.

(01:10:57):
Mm-hmm.
You've got these judges deputizing,these bunch of ass hatts who are,
yeah, Jesse Evans gang and Kenny'smen and all that kinda shit.
They're deputies.
And then you have a justice of thepiece who's deputizing the other side.
So essentially you have Laman fightingLaman for a little battle here.

(01:11:18):
And so when Tusall was murdered,McQueen's role shifted.
Shifted from counselor to commander,and he was shitty at it, by the way.
He was terrible at this part ofthings, but he coordinated the legal
maneuvers, but he also stood behind theregulators as they exacted vengeance.
And they would go on to ambush SheriffBrady on April the first, 1878, and

(01:11:43):
was widely believed to have beenencouraged, if not outright ordered
by McSweeney himself, removing notjust an enemy, but the man holding
an arrest warrant in his name.
So unfortunately it's impossible, youknow, to tell this story in progression.
So we've gotta do a lot ofbouncing back and forth stuff.

(01:12:03):
So just.
Because, no, it, it would make no senseif I just started telling a bunch of
names and didn't kind of connect them.
And

Angela (01:12:10):
people are like, who the hell is that?

John (01:12:12):
Exactly.
So, okay.
The war rage through 1878 and each sidetrading raids, lawsuits and killings.
So by July, McSwain was indictedfor embezzlement and murder.
He was pursued by Dolan's forcesand trapped in his own house.
And on July the 15th, 1878, sheriffGeorge Pepins Posse stacked with

(01:12:36):
Dolan allies in the Seven Rivers.
Men besieged the mis, the mcSwen home for five days Bullets
tour through Adobe walls.
And on the night of July the 19th,the attackers set the house on fire.
As flames consumed the roof MCsSwen emerged wearing a white shirt
that made him an easy target inthe dark right gunfire erupted.

(01:13:00):
MCs Swen fell dead in his own yardalongside his law partner, Harvey Morris.
His wife Susan, was spared and hersurvival a cruel mercy is she watched
the end of her husband's cause.
Yeah.
So the verdict of time, AlexanderMcSwain believed the law could out
fight Monopoly in Lincoln County.

(01:13:21):
It could not.
His defiance turned him from Murphy'sAlly into his most dangerous enemy.
From lawyer into outlaw andfrom strategist into martyr.
His death marked the endof the Lincoln County War.
His widow Susan went on to build oneof the largest cattle herds in New

(01:13:43):
Mexico, outlasting pretty much all ofthe men who had killed her husband.
But history remembers AlexanderMCs Swen as the lawyer who fought
the house with paper and pen untilbullets and fire silenced him.
So when Alexander MCs Swen fell inthe flames of his own house, the

(01:14:07):
war seemed over, but out of theashes, his widow stepped forward.
Susan MCs Swen had lost her husband,her home, and nearly her life.
Yet she refused to vanish in aworld rule by gunman and monopolies.
She carved out a future withnothing but her wits, her courage,

(01:14:27):
and the land beneath her boots.
So Susan Ellen Hummer was born December30th, 1845 in Adams County, Pennsylvania.
Her family were German Baptist,the dunkers whose faith emphasized
simplicity and discipline.
But Susan's own life was never simple.

(01:14:48):
Her mother's death and father'sremarriage left her restless and she
struck out on her on her own youngchoosing independence over obedience.
In 1873, she married AlexandriaMCs Swen in Eureka, Kansas.
Two years later, they rode west to LincolnCounty, New Mexico, and Susan wasn't

(01:15:10):
content to remain in the background.
She was her husband'sconfidant and partner.
Weighing in on business decisionsand legal strategies, their home
in Lincoln became a gatheringplace for allies and later for the
regulators, the cowboy vigilanteswho swore to avenge tonsils murder.

(01:15:32):
Billy, the kid himself foundshelter beneath Susan's roof.
Her courage was tested in July, 1878during the five day battle when Dolan's
Madla siege to the mc swing home.
After that widowed in destitute, Susanfaced her harassment, slander, and
the looming shadow of her enemies.

(01:15:53):
Yet she refused to disappear.
She sought justice for Alex, workingwith Attorney Huston Chapman and
federal investigator Frank Engel toexpose corruption, including Colonel
Dudley's role in the violence whenChapman was murdered in Lincoln,
likely at Dolan's behest, Susanpressed on demanding accountability

(01:16:16):
from a system rigged against her.
Though the courts failed, Susan'sdefiance became legendary.
With nothing left but theland Susan turned to ranching.
She inherited about 160 acres, includingthe Bacca home and evicted Dolan's allies
who squatted on her PO on her property.

(01:16:36):
Then she rebuilt through grit, shrewdmanagement and alliances with cattlemen.
Susan grew her holdings into one ofthe largest herds in the territory.
So by the 1880s, she was known asthe cattle queen of New Mexico.
She managed court battles, signedcontracts in her own name, and stood toe

(01:16:58):
to toe with the man who had once dismissedher as an appendage of her husband.
In a world where women were rarely allowedto own power, Susan seized it and held it.
Susan McSwain lived long enough tosee New Mexico achieve statehood.
She outlasted Murphy Dolan, RileyBrady, and even Billy the kid.

(01:17:21):
She built an empire from Ashesturned loss into legacy and carried
her independence into old age.
She died on July 3rd, 1931 in White Oaks,New Mexico, January, what did I say?
July?
I meant January.
She died January 3rd, 1931 in WhiteOaks, New Mexico, nearly 86 years old.

(01:17:49):
A survivor to the last andwrong woman, two young guns.
Two.
When the naked hooker is riding outof town on the horse and she says,
white Oaks, you can kiss my ass.
So the verdict of time, SusanMcSwain's story is one of the

(01:18:09):
most remarkable of the old West.
She entered history as the widow of afallen lawyer, but carved her own place
as a rancher, entrepreneur, and survivor.
She faced violence, corruption,and betrayal, and answered with
resilience, intelligence, and grit.
History remembers her not as a victimof the Lincoln County War, but as

(01:18:32):
the woman who walked out of its ashesand claimed the land as her own.
Susan McSwain may have carried theburden of grief, but she was not alone
in her fight around her husband andJohn Tunsell had gathered a company
of young cowboys and ranchers.

(01:18:52):
Men who long before the gun smoke hadbeen hired hands, neighbors, or friends.
They were not yet theregulators of legend.
At first, they were simply tunsell'sboys, drovers, horse breakers,
and farm hands who kept hiscattle moving and his ranch alive.
But when Lincoln's courts bent underthe weight of monopoly as Sheriff Brady

(01:19:15):
turned law into a weapon, those samecowboys would be deputized under local
authority, suddenly transformed fromranch hands into armed constables.
This is where the line blurredmost sharply, they were legal
one day outlaw the next their os.
The court dissolved, but theirloyalty to tons and MCs swen remained.

(01:19:40):
And so a ranch crew became avigilante band, a name whispered with
equal parts, admiration and fear.
The regulators.
It was within this group that menlike Richard Brewer, Charlie Bowry,
the co cousins, and a wiry youthnamed Billy Bonnie, step forward.

(01:20:00):
Before the war, theywere ordinary cowboys.
Afterwards they would be rememberedas symbols of vengeance, justice, and
banditry, depending on who told the story.
The charge from cow hands tovigilantes, the rise of the regulators.
So on February 18th, 1878, we knowJohn Tunstall was gunned down.

(01:20:23):
Tunsell's lawyer McSwain and his foreman,Dick Brewer, rallied the dead man's
cowboys and friends, and a local justiceof the peace by the name of John B.
Wilson, deputized Breweras a special constable.
And so for the moment, they had legitimacywarrants were issued for TALs killers.
The posse included names that wouldecho across the west, Billy the kid,

(01:20:47):
John Middleton, Henry Brown, Fred, wait,Charlie Bowry, George Coe, Frank Co. They
called themselves the regulators, andat first they were legal, a sworn posse.
But when Governor Samuel Axtel revokedtheir authority under pressure from the
house, they were stripped of their badges.

(01:21:07):
And from that day, they were outlawsin the eyes of the territory.
So the regulators beganwith a clear mission.
Bring the men who murdered John Tunsell.
They rode with warrants, and fora time they acted like deputies.
But justice in Lincolnall was already poisoned.
Judges and sheriffs bentto Murphy and Dolan.

(01:21:29):
When the regulators tried to servewarrants on men like Jesse Evans, Tom
Hill, William Morton, Frank B, they foundthe law itself standing in their way.
Some of these men werecaptured, others died.
Quote, resisting arrest.
The regulators' mandate shifted quicklyfrom targeted arrests to open war.

(01:21:50):
They became a band of brothersbound by vengeance and survival.
They rode against outlawedsheriffs and soldiers alike.
On April 1st, 78 was the Brady Ambush.
In Lincoln's Dusty Street, theregulators opened fire on Sheriff
William Brady and his deputies.
Brady was riddled with bullets.
Deputy George Hinmanwas killed beside him.

(01:22:13):
And Billy, the kid was seen stripping.
Billy's stripping Brady's bodyof arrest warrants, legal paper
reclaimed by illegal hands.
And then there was the Blazer's Millgun fight, which was a confrontation
with the tough mountain man.
Buckshot Roberts, who was played by BrianKeith in young Guns is turned bloody.

(01:22:36):
And Dick Brewer, theregulator's captain was killed.
Roberts was mortally wounded,but fighting to the last.
He was one tough son of a bitch.
Let me tell you what, thisguy was a tough bastar.
And then on April to July of 1878,there were all kinds of skirmishes,
ambush, assassinations, regulatorbullets, took down enemies like William

(01:22:58):
Morton and Frank Baker, but everyshot deepened the cycle of reprisal.
And then was the five day battle.
July In Lincoln, the regulatorshold up in the, in the MCs Swen
house, firing from the windowssurrounded by Dolan's hired guns.
And on the final night,the house was torched.
Flames drove the regulatorsinto the open Alexander MCs.

(01:23:21):
Swen was cut down and hismen were scattered with some
of 'em dying in the yard.
So by late 1878, theregulators were broken.
Some were dead, others fled.
A few took amnesty whenGovernor Lew Wallace offered it.
Billy the kid restless and loyalto no one, but himself by then
drifted into other outlaw bans.

(01:23:43):
The legend of the regulators ended,but the blood that they spilled
lingered in Lincoln County's dust.
So the verdict of time, theregulators began as deputies
with wards in their hands.
They ended as outlaws with rifles totheir shoulders, to their enemies.
They were vigilantes.
Assassins to their allies.

(01:24:04):
They were the only justicethat Lincoln County ever saw.
Their legacy is not order, but memory.
A reminder that when the lawcollapses, men will make their own.
So among the rough fraternity ofcowboys and ranch hands, there had

(01:24:25):
to be someone to steady the reigns.
The regulators were young.
Restless and already burning with angerover Sal's murder, but without order.
Fur alone would scatter themlike dust on the planes.
That order came in the form ofricher Dick Brewer, older than most
sober minded, and already trusted.

(01:24:47):
As as Sal's foreman, brewerwas the natural choice to lead.
He knew cattle, he knew theland, and he knew men where
others reached first for the gun.
Brewer reached for a plan.
Before the first warrant wasserved, or the first ambush laid.
It was Brewer who gave the regulatorshape a leader who carried not just

(01:25:09):
Tunsell's brand, but his cause.
So the charge leadershipforged in loyalty.
Dick Brewer, the firstcaptain of the regulators.
So Richard Dick Brewer wasborn on February the 19th,
1850 in St. Albans, Vermont.
His family soon moved west, settlingin Boaz, Wisconsin by his early teens

(01:25:32):
brewer, and struck out further driftingthrough Missouri before finding
his way to New Mexico territory.
He bought land, tried his hand atfarming, and lived quietly at first,
but like so many settlers, he wasdrawn into ranching and into the orbit
of men who would decide his fate.
By the early 1870s, he wasworking under Lawrence Murphy.

(01:25:56):
Dissatisfied with the man's methods.
Brewer left.
Later joining John Tuske, his foreman.
That decision changed his life.
With Tunstall Brewer found his footing.
He was steady, diligent, and honest.
The kind of man who could betrusted to run a ranch, handle men
and keep cattle moving, Tunstallrelied on him for nearly everything.

(01:26:20):
Brewer became the ranch's enforcer, aswell as its manager chasing wrestlers
and riding with fellow cowboys likeDoc Scurlock ke for Sutherland in.
And Charlie Bowry, who wasplayed by, who is that guy?
That's on, um, my Best Friend'swedding with, um, what's her name?

(01:26:41):
And he's also,

Angela (01:26:42):
he is a Mc McDermott, isn't he?
Ah, no,

John (01:26:47):
no.
He's also Holly Hunter'spartner in Copycat.

Angela (01:26:53):
I always thought he was a McDermott.

John (01:26:55):
Maybe he is, I don't know the name.
Anyway, he's the one thatplays Charlie Boundary.

Angela (01:26:59):
Yeah.
Well I gotta find out now.

John (01:27:01):
So, Dick's quiet authority, earned respect.
And when Billy, the kid appearedon the scene, brewer saw him
with potential reckless Yeah,but loyal when given reason.
So constable's growing, mercantile andranching Empire had made enemies in
Murphy and Dolan Brewer by then wasalready standing in the crossfire.

(01:27:23):
So we talked about, you know, theFebruary 18th shooting of John Tunsell.
We talked about John B.Wilson, deputizing the group.
Um, and we talked aboutthis group of guys.
We gave some of the namesknown as the regulators.
So.
Brewer led with a coolhead and he sought justice.
Not carnage, though theline blurred quickly.

(01:27:45):
He pursued William Morton and FrankBak, two suspects in Tunsell's murder.
They captured him and they tried todeliver 'em to Lincoln, but somewhere
along the trail Morton and wereexecuted in custody, whether by order
or by mutiny their death stainedthe regulator's badge with blood.

(01:28:06):
Did you find it?

Angela (01:28:07):
Who was I?
What was the guy's name?
The character, not the

John (01:28:12):
in younguns.
Mm-hmm.
Steve.
It was dirty.
Steve.
I, it was wrong.
It was dirty.
Steve

Angela (01:28:19):
Dermot Mulrooney, that's why.

John (01:28:21):
Okay.
Yes.
And so who played then?
Charlie Charles, becauseYeah, you're right.
He played dirty Steve

Angela (01:28:27):
Casey's.
Team Masco.

John (01:28:31):
All right.
I don't know who that is, but I

Angela (01:28:33):
won't

John (01:28:33):
either.
Played the part really good.
He was, he was really good at it.
So, and we'll get into all of thisstuff in more detail as as we move
through this story, but on Aprilthe fourth, 1878, Dick Brewer led
his regulators to Blazer's Mill.
And their target was Andrew BuckshotRoberts, who was believed to be
aligned with Tonsils Killers,

Angela (01:28:55):
who was played by Brian Keith.
Just 'cause I happenedto be looking at it.

John (01:28:58):
That one I knew.
To think about it for aminute, but fricking Bryce

Angela (01:29:03):
looking at that at that moment, he's

John (01:29:05):
just such a great actor and he played that part really well.
Although he had a veryshort role in the movie.
But, um, the fight was sudden and chaotic.
Roberts wounded and cornered, fought likea cornered bear, and he mortally shot
Dick Brewer as the young captain triedto maneuver his men, brewer fell and

(01:29:25):
was the first regulator captain to die.
His blood soaking intothe dirt of Blazer's Mill.
He was only 28 years old.
His body was laid to rest in Mescalero,near the battlefield where he fell.
And, you know, I just gotta say, it's,it's so freaking interesting because
in the other shows that we do, I'malways talking about like these young

(01:29:48):
kids and how young they were and.
And they were just a bunch of, theyweren't young and all this, but when you
go this far back, they weren't young.
15 was a grown ass man.
Yeah.
And he was doing grown ass shit, you know?
Yeah.
So, I mean, you know, Billy, the kid, hewill go on to die at 21 famously, John,

Angela (01:30:07):
spoiler alert.
Goodness sake.

John (01:30:09):
If you don't know, if you don't know that part, then I, I mean, yeah,
you can't really spoil a freakingstory that's 150 years old, but.
You know, John Tunstallwas 24 at the time.
Yeah.
I mean, he was like, you know,I mean, this was a, essentially
a, a very young I know.
I'm looking at my kid going, you'renot much older than this, this dude.

(01:30:30):
Exactly.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, my, my son is currentlyolder than John Tunstall was, and he's not
very damn much younger than Dick Brewer.
So it's just crazy.
But the verdict of time for Dick Brewer.
Dick Brewer was no outlawking, no gambler with death.
He was a working man, a foreman,a rancher who believed that Locke

(01:30:52):
could stand against corruption.
And for a brief flickeringmoment, he carried a badge.
Then, like so many in Lincoln,he carried a gun, his death lift.
The regulators rudderless into thatvacuum, stepped Billy the kid, less
cautious, less bound by conscience,more willing to fight until the end.

(01:31:12):
Brewer's legacy is quieter thanBilly's, but no less telling.
He was proof that even good men whenpressed by corruption and betrayal
can be driven in the bloodshed,
but even the steadiest captainneeds men that he can trust.
Eddie's side.

(01:31:32):
A dick Brewer may havecarried the burden of command.
Yet the regulators drew theirstrength from a cycle of loyal
fighters who shared tonsils causelong before the killing started.
One of those men was Charlie Bowry,a rancher by trade, a cheesemaker by
experiment, and a gunman by necessity.

(01:31:53):
Bowry brought with him both quietconviction and willingness to
stand firm when others faltered.
He wasn't reckless, but he was loyal.
The kind of loyalty that would bind himto his friends until his final breath.
So the charge steadfast friendshipturned into Frontier defiance.

(01:32:13):
Charlie Bowry, a man who walkedinto the storm, shoulder to
shoulder with his companions.
So Charlie Bowry was born around1848 in Wilkes County, Georgia.
His family moved to Mississippi whenhe was still a child, raising him on
hard farm labor, but re was restless.
By the early 1870s.

(01:32:35):
He turned his back onthe plow and headed west.
By 1874, he'd made it toLincoln County, New Mexico.
There he found both business andbrotherhood with Josiah Doc Scurlock.
Together the Para Rani cheesefactory on the Gila River.
An odd prelude for two men whowould soon ride with outlaws.

Angela (01:32:56):
That's what I was thinking.

John (01:32:57):
And, you know, doc Scurlock and, and I'm hoping some of the
listeners have at least seen themovie Doc Scurlock played by Keith
or Keith or Sutherland in the movie.
He was like a poet and a veryeducated, the actual doc Scurlock
was very similar to that.
Um, just to kind of set thescene, for those of you that
actually watch good movies,

Angela (01:33:18):
Frank will watch it.

John (01:33:22):
Oh, frontier Justice was never far.
In July, 1876, Bowry joined aposse that stormed Lincoln's jail,
dragged a accused's horse thief.
Jesus Largo into thestreet and lynched him.
He wasn't reckless by nature, buthe wasn't afraid of violence either.
Again, all of this stems fromthe murder of John Tunstall.

(01:33:46):
And Charlie was there.
He was right alongside the restof the regulators, and he was
there at the Blackwater Creekkillings on March 8th in 78 win.
He captured gunman, William Martinand Frank Baker and Regulator
defector, William McCloskey andall of 'em were executed, and
that happens in the movie as well.

(01:34:06):
He stood in the thick of thingsat the gunfight at Blazer's
Mill, where he was wounded in theexchange with Buckshot Roberts.
Roberts died.
Ru was killed and boundarycarried scars that never healed.
He fought through the five daybattle in July, holed up in
McSwain's, houses that burned.
He escaped that night with Billyand a handful of others slipping

(01:34:29):
into the shadows while MCs Swen fellAfter the war, Bowry tried to settle.
He worked for Thomas Ybe and Pete Maxwell.
Kept close to Billy and marriedManela Herrera, the sister
of Doc s Spurlock's wife.
And for a moment it seemed that Bowrymight trade his rifle for family life.

(01:34:51):
By 1880, the Outlaw Trailwas wearing Bowry down.
He thought about surrender, evenconsidered turning himself in over
his role in buckshot Robert's death.
But friendship tied him tighter than fear.
When Billy, the kid gatheredhis band for one last run.
Tom Ovaled, Dave Augh, who's playedby Christian Slater, Billy Wilson.

(01:35:15):
Charlie Bowry.
He rode along December the23rd, 1880 stinking springs.
Pat Garrett's possesurrounded their hideout.
Bowry stepped outside to feed the horses,and a storm of bullets cutting down.
Billy urged him to die fighting.
Quote, take a few of them with you.
The bowry could barely stand.

(01:35:37):
He stumbled forwardwhispering, I wish, I wish.
And then he fell withoutever drawing his gun.
He was buried at Fort Sumner, laidin the earth beside Tom o. Failure.
Less than a year later, Billyhimself would join them.
The verdict of time.
Charlie Browery never led posses.

(01:35:59):
He never claimed a crown.
He never carved his name intoLincoln's power struggles.
He was quiet, devout, often carryinga Bible in his pocket, but he followed
his friends, stood his ground,and died in the dust beside them.
His story is not of infamyor empire, but of loyalty.
And in Lincoln County, loyaltywas as dangerous as any bullet.

(01:36:27):
Charlie Boundary's loyalty was plain,steady as a fence post in rough weather,
but loyalty alone wasn't enough.
The regulators also needed grit.
Men willing to track wrestlersover broken country and face down
the barrel of another man's gun.
That's where Frank McNabb stepped in.

(01:36:47):
Scotsman turned cattle.
Detective McNat brought with himthe hard edge skills of a man who
lived by pursuit and survival.
He wasn't just muscle, he was method,the kind of presence that gave
the regulators teeth in the chase.
And soon enough, a leader's voice whenthe fighting left them rudderless, the

(01:37:07):
charge relentless pursuit of justice.
No matter how bloody the trail.
Frank McNabb, the detective who becamea captain, Frank McNabb, was born in
Scotland, his exact date, lost to history.
He crossed the Atlantic notas a settler's child, but as a
young man hunting opportunity.

(01:37:28):
By the early 1870s, he was in theAmerican Southwest working for Hunter
Evans and Company, the outfit of CattleBar and John Chisholm McNabb served as
a cattle detective, the polite frontierterm for hired gun against wrestlers.
His job was to track stolen herdsacross the desert, recover them when

(01:37:50):
possible, and put lead into anybodystanding in the way on the Pecos
frontier that made him feared, respected,and well acquainted with violence.
So by 1875, Chisholm had shifted hisempire into New Mexico, staking a kingdom
along the Pecos McNabb, came with himalready bloodied in the wrestler wars.

(01:38:13):
It was through Chisholm that McNabb metAlexander MCs, Swen and John Tunstall,
who's fight against the Murphy Dolanmonopoly aligned with Chisholm's interest.
When Tunstall was assassinated, McNabbwas among the first to swear vengeance.
Deputized was brewer.
On the others, he became afounding member of the regulators.

(01:38:34):
At first, McNabb servedas Brew's lieutenant.
He rode in pursuit of William Morton andFrank Bakker accused in tonsils murder.
Along that trail, when fellow regulator,William McCloskey appeared ready to turn
on his comrades and aid the prisoners,McNabb pulled the trigger himself.
McCloskey fell dead, andMartin and Bak soon followed.

(01:38:57):
Gunned down in the dust.
A killing most blamed onBilly the Kid, but one that
happened under McNabb's watch.
So this is where young guns definitelygot it wrong because in the movie,
Billy, the Kid says to McCloskey,man, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm
sorry I didn't recognize you sooner.
You goddamn damn traitor.

(01:39:18):
Boom.
Is that up?
That is exactly that on.
So, and as a matter of fact, McNabb isn'teven in the movie and he was, he was like
a bigger part of the whole story than someof the ones that made it into the movie.
But for whatever reason,Hollywood didn't pick him.
So yeah, wasn't romantic enough.

(01:39:40):
Apparently not.
I mean, it's a pretty freakingromantic story though.
The guy was a freaking rangedetective and he chased wrestlers
all over the damn place.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, that's a pretty freakinggood story, but I don't know.
They skipped him.
So on April the first, 1878, McNappwas in the ambush that cut down Sheriff
William Brady and Deputy George Hinman.

(01:40:02):
He fired not just for vengeance, but torecover the warrants that Brady carried
documents that marked the regulatorsas outlaws, and then at Blazer's Mill,
MCNA fought beside Brewer againstBuckshot Roberts where Brewer died.
Roberts Mortally was wounded andMcNab walked away alive, but by
regulators vote, he then became theirnew captain, which is again odd.

(01:40:27):
I guess they would've had to makethe story or the movie as long as
this podcast ended up being, that'sprobably why they didn't do it, but.
McNabb's command lasted less than amonth because on April the 29th, 1878, he
rode with Ab Saunders and Frank Coe nearthe Fritz Ranch Sheriff George Pepin.

(01:40:48):
Backed by the Seven Rivers Warriorsand Jesse Evans gang set an ambush.
McNabb fought hard wounded, butscrambling into a goalie for cover.
Their Manuel Indian Segoviatracked him down and fired a
shotgun blast that ended his life.
Saunders was badly wounded, cocaptured, and the regulators lost

(01:41:10):
their sep, their second captain.
In less than 30 days.
The regulators answered in kind by Maythe Stormed, the Seven Rivers camp and
gun and gunned down, Segovia avengingMcNabb's death in the only currency
the war allowed, which was blood.
McNabb was remembered as relentless,efficient, and at times ruthless killing.

(01:41:33):
McCloskey branded him controversial,but to the regulators, he was decisive.
A man who did what had to be done.
His Scottish grit honed on cattletrails and hardened in the desert, made
him the natural successor to brewerif only briefly, after McNabb fell.
Doc Scurlock assumed command, but theregulators were already unraveling

(01:41:57):
under the weight of loss and vengeance.
So the verdict of time, FrankMcNabb's Life was a frontier riddle.
A cattle detective sworn to defendproperty turned outlaw leader in
a war where lot self was broken.
His tenure was short, his deathviolent, but his presence proved

(01:42:18):
that the regulators were morethan just Billy, the kids gang.
They were a company of men boundby vengeance, losing leaders
one by one until nothing.
But legend remained
with Frank McNabb cut down.
The regulators neededmore than another gun.
They needed a mind, someoneliterate, steady, and still

(01:42:41):
willing to fight into that breach.
Stepped Josiah Gordon, doc Scurlock,a cowboy who read Poetry by
Firelight, carried the scar andbullet through his jaw and let
men with both brains and steel.
The charge.
A philosopher with a six shooterwho turned from, who turned from

(01:43:03):
vigilante violence to family lifeand lived long enough to see the
age of Outlaws become legend.
So Josiah Gordon Scurlock KeeferSutherland's character was born January
11th, 1849 in Talla County, Alabama.
One of 11 children of PriestlyNorman Scurlock and Esther Ann

(01:43:28):
Brown, unlike many Frontiergunman, Scurlock grew up educated.
He briefly studied medicine in NewOrleans, earning the nickname Doc.
But, but learning couldn't cage him.
So by 1870, restless for the widerworld, scurlock headed south into Mexico.
There in a dusty confrontation.

(01:43:49):
He survived the kind of fightthat could have ended him early.
Shot through the mouth teeth shattered thebullet, tearing out the back of his neck.
He lived, killed his attacker and carriedthe scar for the rest of his life.
That brush with deathonly deepened his resolve.
He turned cowboy riding for JohnChisholm in Texas, trailing cattle

(01:44:12):
across the Southwest, battlingwrestlers and Apaches, and sometimes
skimming the line into theft himself.
So by 1874 Scurlock was in New Mexicoand he partnered with Charlie Faure to
open a cheese factory on Lake Gila River.
Let stop laughing at that.
It's crazy, isn't it?

(01:44:33):
Later moving to a ranch near Rio Ruidoso.
But like so many small operators,he was soon entangled in debt
to Lawrence Murphy's house.
A reminder that Monopolyhad a stranglehold on even
the most modest lives.
Cheese is expensive, cheese is expensive.

(01:44:54):
Scurlock also had a taste for vigilantJustice in 1876, he and Bowry,
alongside the Cooch cousins and ABSaunders Hall accused horse thief.
Jesus Largo out of Lincoln'sjail and strung him up.
It was a warning shot.
The law was weak, and men like Scurlockwere willing to supply their own.

(01:45:16):
That same year, Scurlock marriedMaria Antonio Mcla Herrera.
Together they would raise 10 children.
No, making him one of the fewregulators to balance violence
with a deeply rooted family life.
And so he did not marry the China doll.

(01:45:36):
That was ca captive by Lawrence Murphy.
That was Hollywood, but he's Hollywood.
But he was playing verywell by, um, Keefer.
Suther led that that role wasvery much like him, except Keefer
Southern was a little bit more timid.
Then the actual Doc Scurlockwas actual Doc Scurlock.

(01:45:57):
He wouldn't take no shit from nobody.
He was not afraid to fight.
Not saying Doc in the moviewas, but he was really kind of
timid and all artsy fartsy andpoetry and all that kinda stuff.
And that was just not the case.

Angela (01:46:10):
And fatherhood of 10 kids.

John (01:46:11):
Yeah.
And so when John Tunstall wasmurdered, Scurlock threw in with
Brewer, Bowery, Billy the kid, andall the rest the regulators were born.
We've told that story.
So with Brewer dead and thenap gunned down the mantle of
leadership failed a scurlock.
He wasn't the loudest orthe most flamboyant, but his

(01:46:32):
men trusted his judgment.
He led retaliatory strikes, includingthe killing of Manu, Manuel Segovia,
avenging McNabb, and he kept orderwhen others were tempted to splinter.
As a deputy, under McSwain's ally,sheriff John Copeland Scurlock gave the
regulators their last brush with legality.

(01:46:54):
But once Governor Axtel stripped theircommissions, they were outlaws for good.
So by late in 1878, doc's patiencefor endless bloodshed waned.
When Billy, the kid turnedto wrestling, John Chisholm's
Cattle Scurlock stepped away.
He chose life, not death.
Scurlock then returned toTexas, first to Potter County,

(01:47:17):
and then to Eastland County.
And there the man who once led Vigilantesbecame a postmaster, a rancher,
and a community leader and a poet.
He raised his children, grew oldwith his wife, Maria Antonia, and
died quietly of a heart attack.
On July 25th, 1929, he was buried inEastland, Texas, a far cry from the

(01:47:42):
smoke filled streets of Lakeland Lincoln.
The verdict of time.
Josiah Doc Scurlock stands apartfrom most of his regulator brothers.
He fought, killed, and led, but helived long enough to lay down his guns.
He wrote poetry, raised a family,and became a pillar of his community.
His story is a reminder that the menof Lincoln were not just desperados.

(01:48:06):
Some were thinkers, some weredreamers, some were men who wanted
peace when the chance finally came.
Okay?
So I think that now as a, as a good, asplace, as any to end this, um, I know
we've covered a lot of information.
We still got the rest of theregulators to talk about.

(01:48:28):
Then we've got the whole Murphy Dolanside to talk about, and then we dive
into the whole rest of the chaos.
So there's just so many freakingplayers, and so that's why this
is kind of fun and exciting anddifferent than what we typically do.
Yeah, because.
We have 150 years of research andinvestigation into all of this.

(01:48:49):
And so we have all of thisinformation that we can collect.
So it's really fun.
And, and, and

Angela (01:48:55):
if we let you, you would be here

John (01:48:57):
I all night.
Weeks.
Oh yeah.
Weeks and weeks.
Absolutely.
You know, it's, it's so funnybecause it's, we've got, um, Rocky
Mountain Reckoning and a lot of thosestories, there's like no information.
You can't find anything.
No.
And then you dive into thisand it's like information.
Yeah.
Where I don't know what to do with it all.
It is, it's so crazy.

(01:49:18):
And then inside my brain, my broken brainwhere I have researched Billy the Kid
for, I mean, probably 40, 40 some years.
Mm-hmm.
I've been fascinated with Billy the kid.
I mean, I can remember my parents,uh, I think my parents had to

(01:49:39):
go to Billings or something likethat, and I was left home alone.
And so I got a ride down to the We Marketthat who used to send it to South for,
and I rented it because it was raining.
R no freaking wait.
I was gonna be loud.
And I rented the people Say You're Butler.
Because my brother going to, yes.

(01:50:01):
And so I can't remember exactly wheremy parents went, but they left me alone.
And so I was like in chargeof like irrigating and stuff.
That was my life growing up and,but I got, I know I couldn't drive
at the time, but I got to the storeand I rented young guns and couldn't
wait to get home and watch it.
And then it is the movie that I drovepeople insane with because there was a

(01:50:25):
time, I literally knew it word for word.
I could recite the whole movie to you.

Angela (01:50:30):
How mad were they when they found out?

John (01:50:32):
No, I don't think they ever found out.

Angela (01:50:34):
But you're reciting the movie to everybody that didn't

John (01:50:37):
I rec, I didn't recite it to them.
Oh, okay.
Throughout the years, you know, I'dbe like, have you seen Younguns?
And they'd be like, no.
And so I'd put it in and watch it,and then I'd start reciting it.
I'd be like, would you shut up?
Just love me.
Watch Elite.
Yeah.
That was what this movie.
Oh man.
So that triggered a lifetime offascination with Billy the Kid.
And so digging into this story is even.

(01:50:58):
More than it would be normally.
'cause I love history.
I love True crime.
The two come together perfectly in this.
But then I have this passionfor like Billy the Kid.
Yeah.
It's really funny because as a kidit was Billy the Kid and Crazy Horse.
Those were like my two idols.
Like that's just, and so I,I dunno why that is, but.

(01:51:19):
You

Angela (01:51:19):
wanted to be an Indian outlaw.

John (01:51:21):
Yeah.
And so when I was playing as a kid, likeone day I'd be Billy the kid, I'd be
running around like shooting the bad guysand the next day I'd be riding bareback
and I would be crazy horse and I'd berunning around killing the Cowboys.
So, I don't know, it's, it's just funny.
But anyway, I think that that bringsus to the end of this episode.
Next episode we'll gotta talk about therest of the regulators and then we will,

(01:51:44):
you know, kinda start talking about theMurphy Dolan side, depending on time as
we kinda weave our way through this story.
'cause there are a lotof moving pieces here.
And then, you know, unlike most of thestories that we talk about, that's limited
to like one tragic event here, we've got.
All of this shit going on, you know?
Yeah.

Angela (01:52:04):
And you're bouncing in this

John (01:52:06):
and yeah.
Martin and B get arrested.
And then with McCloskey,they all get assassinated.
And I've actually read lettersthat were written by B to um, I
believe it was his wife during that.
And he says in those LA letters, Billy,the kid is determined to kill us.
We're never gonna make it alive.

(01:52:26):
And that sure enough, they allget gunned down and killed.
So anyway, a lot of fun information, A lotof super interesting stuff to talk about.
And the unique part of this storyis we're talking about one of the
most famous outlaws of the American.

Music (01:52:40):
Yeah, yeah.

John (01:52:42):
But there's a real question whether I consider him an outlaw or not.
Mm-hmm.
Because if put in the samesituation, I think I would act
exactly the same way, like.
If I'm, if I'm a orphan at 14and then I meet this guy, right?
He gives me a gun.
And when I say that,

Angela (01:52:59):
he And a job and a life and a purpose.

John (01:53:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
When I say that he was given aWinchester 73, I mean, if you're not
a gun person, you don't have any cluewhat that means, but in the 1870s.
Giving somebody a, a Winchester73 was like handing them life.
Mm-hmm.
Because it was a, you know, it was sixshooters at the time, and the Winchester
73 was really one of the very firstrepeating rifles and it would shoot

(01:53:26):
the same caliber that is handgun wouldshoot, so they would shoot the same one.
But giving him that, giving anybodythat gun, allowed them to not only
defend themselves from a lot fartheraway, but without having to line up.
With somebody on a street basically.
But it also allowed him to takegame from a long ways away.
You know, they can now shrinkdeer wear with a pistol.

(01:53:47):
That's very difficult to do, you know?
So, and your other option was likeblack powder and shit like that.
'cause this is, this is that periodof time, you know, where repeating
rifles are really taken over.
And so, you know where you havelike the peacemaker who, who's
labeled the gun that won the west?
Really?
It was the Winchester73 that won the West.

(01:54:08):
So that was a huge gift toa young man at the time.
And so put in that same situation and thenyou kill my major and the one guy in my
whole life who's actually treated me Yeah.
With any sort of respect and love.
Yeah.
You didn't leave on his own, you took him.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, you think about it,his, his real dad deserted him.

(01:54:30):
Mm-hmm.
The only real love that he wasgiven was from his mom, but no male.
Yeah.
Gave him any, this guy wasthe first father figure.
Absolutely.
Ironically, being only like fiveor six years older than him, but

Angela (01:54:42):
still,

John (01:54:43):
he was still the father figure to him.
And so that loyalty, I understand.
And put in the same situationwhere you can't go to the law
because the law's crooked.

Music (01:54:53):
Mm-hmm.

John (01:54:53):
Ida went to war too, so it'll be interesting how, uh, you and the
listeners all kind of come out at theend of this, whether you're with me and
think Billy was maybe not as much outlawor he was a hardened outlaw and killer.
Okay.
Who killed 21 Men one foreach year of his life?

Angela (01:55:12):
The next question, do you want me to watch the movie
before we finish this or wait?

John (01:55:17):
Oh, you can definitely watch the movie.

Angela (01:55:19):
Okay.

John (01:55:19):
Oh yeah.
I mean, you won't, nothingwill be given away.

Angela (01:55:23):
Okay.

John (01:55:23):
And that's kind of the fun part about these stories is because
they're so old and I mean, I guesseverybody's not like me and doesn't
know like all the little intricaciesabout Billy the kid's life.
But, um, it's just, you coulddefinitely watch the movie because
obviously I'm gonna reference it alot and you'll get those references.
And so the listeners, I encourageyou, if you have to watch Young

(01:55:46):
Guns, I would encourage you to watchboth of them because then you'll
be ready for Young Guns three.
Who rumor has it is gonna becoming out I think in 2026 or 2027,
which I'm freaking snowed about.

Music (01:55:58):
I'm so,

John (01:55:59):
yeah, I, um, I mean, Lou Diamond Phillips, he's one of my favorite freaks.
I really like him a lot now.
He is awesome and he plays.
Chavez Chavez so freaking well.
And he is an actual regulator that wewill be talking about and he's quite
an interesting character as well.
But I

Angela (01:56:18):
guess I don't think Blue Diamond Phillips should play
anybody who's not interesting.

John (01:56:22):
No, he's such a great actor.

Angela (01:56:24):
Yeah.
They're all interesting.

John (01:56:26):
Yeah.
And I, you know, I was, I actuallywas reading a little article about the
friendship that him and Graham Greenformed and they weren't really Yeah.
Because both of them, theywere on, on long wire together.
Yeah.
You

Angela (01:56:39):
know,

John (01:56:39):
and.
I mean, it sounds like

Angela (01:56:41):
had to be adversaries.

John (01:56:42):
Everybody that um, worked with him has the same thing.
Kevin Costner said the same thing.
Yeah.
He was like awesome to work with.
Like every movie the guy'sbeen in, the actors that worked
with him said he was awesome.
So rest in peace, brother, because Yeah.
Gave us some really, really great movie.
So

Angela (01:57:01):
many yes.

John (01:57:02):
Things.
He was in so many andall of 'em were awesome.
And you know, honestly, like Lou DiamondPhillips, I could say the same thing about
like, pretty much every movie that guy'sbeen in, I have freaking really liked.

Music (01:57:14):
Yeah.

John (01:57:14):
Um.
Emilio Estevez that like minuteat work, I could take it or
leave it, you know, whatever.
But the guy's a freaking good actor.
You talk about a worldclass acting family.
Mm-hmm.
His hard machine.
Emilio Este.
Yeah.
Um, his brother went offthe rails a little bit, but

Angela (01:57:30):
because he's winning,

John (01:57:31):
he was a good freaking actor man.
And yeah, the part, the part thathe played in Young Guns, he really
played it good as Dick Brewer.
So yeah, I encourage all of you to watchboth of the young guns and, um, and yeah.
We'll, we'll pick this backup on the next episode.
So obviously that brings part one ofour look into Billy the Kid to a Close.

(01:57:54):
The voice swept into a war, a fugitive,forged by circumstance, and a legend
that refuses to die in part two.
We're gonna continue on this journey.
We'll talk about the bloody showdownsthat carved the regulators' path
and the choices that made history.

Angela (01:58:13):
In the meantime, if you've enjoyed this episode, make sure you're
subscribed to wherever you listenand share it with a friend who loves
history as well, outlaws, or just agood story from the Old West, or just
listening to how passionate John is about

John (01:58:28):
this bunch of a nutball.
I am, I said passionate.
I said, no, Paul.
Okay, fine.
If you want to do more than listen,we've built ways for you to get involved
through our adoptive victim program.
You can pick a case and help us digcoming through, sources, piecing
together records, and keeping theseforgotten lives alive through research.

Angela (01:58:52):
And if you wanna take an even more active role, you can
join the Dark Dialogue collective.
That's where listeners sign up tohelp on searches, support families,
and be part of the hands-on workthat pushes these stories forward.

John (01:59:05):
You can also support us on Patreon, substack, or Coffee.
Every bit of support helps keep thefire burning and the research alive,

Angela (01:59:15):
and we, I always want to hear from you.
Drop us a line at info@darkdialogue.comwith your theories, your
feedback, or just to say hello,

John (01:59:25):
this has been dark dialogue, gallows and gunfights.
Until next time, let the past take thestand and the guilty face, the gallows.

All Episodes

Billy the Kid, Part 1 – The Regulators Rise

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

Two Guys, Five Rings: Matt, Bowen & The Olympics

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Billy the Kid, Part 1 – The Regulators Rise