Lisa Marie Kimmell Part 2: What the River Gave Back – The Discovery of Lisa - Dark Dialogue: Rocky Mountain Reckoning

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John (00:40):
Rivers don't give up their secrets easily.
They hold them, tangle them in reeds,press them into silt, sweep them
downstream with the rest of the wreckage.
But on April 2nd, 1988 and eight daysafter Lisa Marie Kimmel disappeared, the
North Platte River gave something back.

(01:00):
Not a clue, not a sign a body.
Lisa had been found nude, weigheddown, floating in the icy current near
the old bridge in Casper, Wyoming.
What followed wasn't just heartbreak.
It was horror.
The autopsy would confirm whather family already feared.

(01:21):
Lisa had been assaulted.
She had suffered severe head trauma.
She'd been held alive for daysand then she'd been killed.
This episode isn't easy.
We'll be walking through the discovery ofLisa's body, the recovery, the evidence,
and what little forensics could tell us.

(01:42):
In 1988, we'll also examine whatcouldn't be answered back then and
what haunted investigators for years.
And we'll talk about the detail thatstuck in the minds of everyone who
saw the coverage, and we'll talk aboutthe detail that stuck in the minds
of everyone who saw the coverage,her car gone, but not just any car.

(02:06):
The black Honda CRX, with thepersonalized plate, little miss.
A nickname, a symbol, and eventually acalling card that would become infamous.
Lisa's body had been found, but theman who took her, he was still out
there, and the fear that followedwasn't just for Lisa, it was for every

(02:29):
young woman who drove that same road.
Hey Angela, how's it going tonight?

Angela (02:36):
Better than last night.
How are you?

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yeah, better than last night.
Yeah.
I don't

Angela (02:40):
have quite the headache I had last night.

John (02:42):
That's really great news.
I'm doing good.
I'm doing really good.
No complaints whatsoever.

Angela (02:48):
That's great.

John (02:49):
Yeah.
Is you right?
Did

Angela (02:50):
not sound at all.

John (02:54):
No,

Angela (02:55):
that didn't sound like I meant that at all.
That's great.

John (03:00):
Well, good for you.

Angela (03:03):
I been a rose.
No, I meant it.
This did not come out that way.

John (03:08):
That's all right.
So we ready for this episode?

Angela (03:14):
I is.
I'm gonna be, I guess.

John (03:15):
Yeah.
I mean, we kinda say thesame thing every time.
It is tough.
I mean, the job that we do talkabout true crime is just tough.
It is.
But you know, we'd hope that she'd justbeen delayed, that maybe she'd gotten
turned around, maybe her car brokedown, maybe she'd walk in the door.
But rivers don't give back.

(03:36):
The missing, they give back the truth.
And on April 2nd, 88, theNorth Platte told us everything
that we didn't want to hear.

Angela (03:44):
Yeah.
Lisa had been found.
Nude, submerged tied down with a heavyobject and left in the current, like
she didn't matter, but she mattered.
And what the autopsy revealed,it broke something wide open.

John (03:58):
Yeah.
This wasn't just a murder.
This was prolonged personal, cruel.
And for the first time, lawenforcement had to face the truth.
Someone had taken her, held her, hurther, and they weren't finished hiding.

Angela (04:16):
This is Dark Dialogue.
Rocky Mountain Reckoning, the serieswhere we return to the crimes rooted
deep in the dirt and snow of the AmericanWest, the ones that never left the hearts
of the people who lived through them.

John (04:29):
We investigate the stories buried under the snowfall, prairie
dust, and decades of unansweredquestions the one whispered through
cattle fences past broken barbedwire, and across wind lash highways.

Angela (04:42):
Disappearance isn't always about getting lost.
Sometimes someone's waiting.

John (04:48):
I'm your host John.
And I'm Angela.
In this episode, we walk through themoment that Lisa was found, what the
forensics showed, what the limitationswere in 1988, and why one detail, the
license plate that read little Miss burneditself into the minds of an entire region.

Angela (05:09):
We'll also talk about how the media covered the case and how
fear spread like smoke could crossWyoming because Lisa was one of
us and if it could happen to her.

John (05:20):
Yeah.
This is episode two,what The River Gave Back,

Angela (05:25):
and this is Dark Dialogue, Rocky Mountain Reckoning

John (05:34):
because I completely and totally dropped the ball before the last episode.
I believe that you have a bunchof location information for us
for this second episode, right?

Angela (05:45):
A bunch.
I

John (05:47):
kind of figured you

Angela (05:47):
only one that drop the ball because I didn't realize I wasn't asked

John (05:53):
location, so that's all right.
I'll, I'll take the blame.
But with that, why don't you tellus about some of the places that
we're gonna be talking about thisepisode and really threw out this
whole arc of Lisa Marie Kimmel.

Angela (06:08):
Okay.
So it's gonna be a lotof meat for a minute.
Perfect.
Because we have a fewplaces to talk about.

John (06:14):
Well, I do most of the gabbing anyway, so I can, I can share that.

Angela (06:18):
Sit back for a minute.

John (06:20):
Yeah, take it away.
He's

Angela (06:21):
just gonna rest

John (06:22):
you.
So Exactly.

Angela (06:24):
Went up and we'll be fine.

John (06:25):
Yeah.
Wake me up when you're done.

Angela (06:26):
Wake up, throw something at, I got it.
So the first location is Billings.
We've talked a bit about Billings,Montana, and previous episodes
as it is one of the major citiesfolks in our area Venture.
Two for major medical specialties.
Because Billings hosts the largesthospitals within a 500 mile radius.

(06:47):
Many of us also seek the larger arrayof shopping and dining options, as
well as entertainment with the MetroPark Arena and the Alberta Bear
Theater hosting concerts and shows.
There's also many museums and lotsof cool stuff to do around billings.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Have you ever kind ever been to a museum in Billings?

Angela (07:07):
It's the Moss Museum is something I want to go to.
I don't know a whole lot about it.
So the

Speaker 3 (07:12):
Imagine,

Angela (07:12):
yeah.
Thank you very much.
So, so you knew something?

John (07:17):
Oh, yeah.
I, I knew something.
I mean, I've seen the MossMansion, but I've never been in it.
I've never, I don't think I'veever gone to a museum in Billings.
I kind of want to.

Angela (07:26):
So anyway, the city was founded in 1882 and named for Frederick
h Fillings, a former presidentof the Northern Pacific Railroad.
The railroad formed the cityas a western railhead for its
further westward expansion.
At first, the new town had only threebuildings, but within just a few

(07:48):
months it had grown to over 2000.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
Wow.

Angela (07:52):
Right.
So this is what Spur Filling'snickname of the Magic City.
Because like magic, itseemed to appear overnight.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
I did not know that.

Angela (08:02):
I didn't know that either.
I knew it was Magic City,but I didn't know why.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yeah.
I didn't either.
Harass.
Yeah.
Huh.
We just Interesting.

Angela (08:08):
Agree with it and move on.

Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yep.

Angela (08:11):
We're very accepting

Speaker 3 (08:12):
people.
Yes,

Angela (08:13):
we are.
Magic City.
Sure.
Currently, billings is the most populouscity in Montana with the census statistics
trending as follows, A whopping 145people were reported in eighteen seventy
one hundred and forty five people.
Wow.
Just wait 12 years later beforeit was officially founded.

(08:37):
12 years before it was officially founded.
That's ha ha ha, ha ha.
I messed my whole self up.
That's when 145 people were reported.
While the story that takes placethat we're discussing is in 88.
We have to look at 1990 censusreporting, 81,151 residents, and in

(08:58):
2020 it reported 117,000 116 people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That kind of blew up a little
bit.
So there's definitely something to thatmagical growth people are talking about.
Well, many notablepeople are from Billings.
I just grabbed a few that caughtmy eye while reading about it.

(09:19):
Calamity Jane lived in and aroundBillings between stints with
the Buffalo Bill Wild West Show.
John Ton Johnson was connected to Billingsbecause he served as man in the area.
Did you know that?

John (09:34):
I did.
Do you know why he iscalled liver Eaton Johnson?
I'm assuming he ate livers becausethe story goes that, I think it was
the crow killed his family, so hewent and hunted the crow down and
killed them and ate their livers.
Yep.
And he is currently buried.
Where

Angela (09:55):
In Old Trail Town?

John (09:56):
In Old Trail Town.

Angela (09:56):
That was Jeremiah.
Is it the same person?

John (09:58):
Same person.

Angela (09:59):
Really?
Yeah.
Okay.

John (10:01):
Yep.
And he was actually dug up.
He was buried in California.
He was dug up, moved here,and Robert Redford because
he played him in the movie.
What

Angela (10:14):
contest?
In my knowledge.

John (10:16):
And you're kicking ass.
I'm proud of

Angela (10:18):
you.
Thank you.
Astronaut Frank Borman, whocommanded Apollo Eight's historic
Christmas flight in 1968.
Retired to Billings and passed awaythere at the age of 95 Academy Award
nominee and famed Pixar animator.
Bud.
Lucky was born and raised in Billings.

(10:40):
And finally I'll mentionAmerican Rock and Roll performer.
Robert Lee Chan Romero, that'sknown for his 1959 song.
Hippie, hippie shake.

Speaker 3 (10:50):
I did not know that he was

Angela (10:52):
born and raised in billings.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
That's pretty cool.

Angela (10:56):
So some not so fun facts about billings that I just decided
to throw in there was that inthe 1980 eruption of Mount St.
Helen's has it lt, about oneinch of ash on billing soil.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:10):
Miracle too.

Angela (11:11):
Yeah, hair too.
While the 1988 fires in Yellowstone,national heart blanketed
billings and smoke per weeks.

John (11:19):
And the worst here

Angela (11:20):
and worst,

John (11:22):
I remember that I wasn't quite well

Angela (11:24):
and more recent ish.
You should probably,you might remember it.
I don't know.
You weren't.
Were you here in 2010?

John (11:32):
Yeah, I was, and I do actually remember that

Angela (11:35):
Father's Day, June 20th, 2010, a tornado touchdown in the area of
Billings known as The Heights, and didsignificant damage to many businesses.
Including the Metro Park.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
Including Metro Park.
Yeah, yeah.
Yep.

Angela (11:49):
That was a little frightening for some of us who were like,
tornadoes don't belong here.
Yeah.
I was not a happy girl.
I was, I was very mad.

Speaker 3 (11:57):
I've seen of several tornadoes here.

Angela (12:00):
See, I have not

Speaker 3 (12:01):
five, I think I don't want to,

Angela (12:04):
and I was very, very upset that it was that close.
Yeah,

Speaker 3 (12:08):
they've been a lot closer.

Angela (12:10):
Yeah, I don't like it.
I don't want them.
So now we'll run you down to Denverand during the Pikes Peak Gold Rush
in the summer of 1858, a group ofgold prospectors from Lawrence,
Kansas established a mining townnear the South Platte River.
This was the first historical settlementin what eventually became the city of

(12:31):
Denver, while it was officially namedafter James w Denver, the governor
of the Kansas Territory at the time,it was later nicknamed The Mile High
City because it's official elevationis exactly one mile above sea level.

John (12:45):
Yep.

Angela (12:46):
I figured he would correct me if that was wrong.

John (12:49):
That is 100% true.
That's, and it's hilarious becauseeverybody talks about it like it's so high
and it's like, yeah, there's about onemile a million different freaking places
in Wyoming and Colorado that are higher,

Angela (13:01):
one mile.
Denver is the most populous cityin Colorado and is the 19th most
populous in the United States.
I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
Yeah,

Angela (13:12):
I didn't know that.

John (13:13):
And it is freaking booming, so it will, I mean, it wouldn't surprise
me at all to see it take over likeChicago and Houston and, right.
I mean, the front range ofColorado is just booming.
Yeah,

Angela (13:29):
it's, I've been there a time or six, but

Speaker 3 (13:32):
yeah, me too.

Angela (13:34):
So,
uh, so this will lead me into theCensus records again, I get to
do so many census records this.

John (13:43):
You know, the other thing before you get to the Census records, it is
kind of funny, but although Billingsis one of the places that we can go
for some concerts and stuff mm-hmm.
As hard as it is to believe, Denver isthe place where everybody from Wyoming
and Montana, and every place goes forlike the major concerts because, and
all of the sports, it is the one placein this entire West, Northwestern,

(14:09):
um, you know, short of like when youget far west, like Seattle and Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Portland and stuff.
But I mean, there's nothingreally in Idaho, Wyoming, Montana.
Yeah.
North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska,Kansas, I mean, it's all Denver.
All converged.
Yep.

Angela (14:29):
So 4,749 people were reported to live there in 1860.
While nearer to the time of thestory, they reported 467,610 people.

John (14:44):
And the crazy part is, is that's just like, you know, like every major city
that's just like Denver proper, but thenthere's all of the suburbs around there.
Yeah, well over a million people.
I mean, yeah, probably down in two or 3million just in that, you know, Denver,
Aurora, Littleton, dust, that whole area.

(15:07):
Yeah.

Angela (15:08):
So another tiny jump is tiny in 2024, an estimated 729,029 denverites.
Yeah.
I'm really big on the denims now.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
He I noticed that.

Angela (15:25):
Yeah.
In fact, the people in my officealways want me to ask or to find
out with the denim of something.
So it's no secret that Denveris known for a ton of sports.
Denver Broncos, Colorado Rockies, DenverNuggets, and the Colorado Avalanche.
This leaves the list of notable,notable people that would keep us

(15:45):
here till Friday if I read them all.
So I'm not going to, I did whatI do and I just picked out a
few, and apparently I write, now
I'm in France, so
comedian, actor Tim Allen was born inDenver and spent his childhood there.
I didn't know that.
I did not know that because he's,he's all about like Michigan.

(16:06):
Yeah.
So, but yeah, he's, he was bornthere, in fact, childhood there.
I don't know if I'mpronouncing this right.
Za McClaren.
McClaren.
That's known as Mattias.
On Long Wire Matthias.
On Longwire.
Yeah.
And our favorite sitcom made Alice, Ms.

(16:31):
Ann B. Davis spent a decade there inthe seventies, which I was shocked
because weren't been recordingthe Brady Bunch in the seventies.

Speaker 3 (16:40):
Yeah.

Angela (16:40):
So she is bouncing back and forth between Denver and

Speaker 3 (16:44):
probably,

Angela (16:44):
anyway,

Speaker 3 (16:45):
I mean, Denver's a major airline hub.
True.
Oh yeah.
It is.

Angela (16:51):
Wyoming Senator, the late Greg Allen k Simpson was born there.
And in 1957, the 64th US Secretaryof State, Ms. Madeline Albright
became a US citizen in Denver.
Didn't know that either.
Denver also brought us bands such asthe Fray One Republic and the Lumineers.

Speaker 3 (17:12):
Who else lived there right around 1860 actually
would've been a little bit later.
It would've been more like 1864.
Wasn't me Billy the kid?

Angela (17:22):
Billy the kid?
Yeah.
John's gonna have some Billythe kid information for us soon.

Speaker 3 (17:27):
Oh, yes I am.

Angela (17:30):
So we will bring you north a little bit to our little slice of heaven.
Cody Wyoming was founded in 1896and incorporated in 1901, is widely
known that Cody was founded and namedfor William, uh, Buffalo, bill Cody.
In 1870s Buffalo Bill was impressedby the region's potential for

(17:53):
irrigation and development.
So in the 1890s, he returned, partneredwith investors and founded the town.
Cody's the county seat of ParkCounty, Wyoming, and is a beautiful
52 miles from the east entranceto Yellowstone National Park.
Please forgive me, my tourismmarketing day job was showing through
little bit,

(18:15):
very well known as a tourist destination.
There are several museums to enjoy theCody Knight Rodeo running every night.
From June 1st to August 31st, weatherpermitting, earns coded the title
of Rodeo Capital of the world.

John (18:29):
And that weather permitting thing is a new development.
'cause when I was growing up,it was not weather permitting.
Nope.
It was rain or sleet or hell or tornadoes.
It didn't matter.
It

Angela (18:40):
still has to be

John (18:42):
pretty bad.

Angela (18:42):
Pretty bad.

John (18:43):
Lightning is the big thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't wanna sit in thatbus juice, some lightning.
I There are a lot of times,and it's frigging scary.
You're on this giant metals.
Everything's metal,

Angela (18:56):
everything's

John (18:57):
metal.

Angela (18:58):
With, you know, 60, 70 other people going, ha,
we're all dying together.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cody's earliest census reported 1,132people in 1910 and grew to 7,897
people in the 1990 census just twoyears after the story takes place.

(19:18):
The 2023 estimate is approximately 10,240.
So besides your two favorite podcasthosts, star dialogue zone, John and
Angela, a few other, potentially morewell known folks were born and Cody,
namely Grammy nominated country musicartist and professional rodeo champion.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
He wasn't from Cody.

Angela (19:44):
Instead, he was born in Cody.
I

Speaker 3 (19:46):
don't think so.

Angela (19:48):
I looked in three places.
So I'm

John (19:49):
gonna

Angela (19:50):
born in Cody.

John (19:51):
I'm gonna have to check that.
'cause I'm pretty sure hewasn't born in Wyoming anyway.
But he did live in Casey,

Angela (19:56):
supposedly.
Supposedly.
Then First will do.
Who was born in Wyoming,according to three places on you.
And the internet doesn't lie.

Speaker 3 (20:07):
Oh yeah, this is true.

Angela (20:08):
Discussed this last night.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
Yes, this is true.
I'm sorry.

Angela (20:11):
Oh, abstract Expressionist artist, Jackson Pollock.
Really?
Yes.
He was born here.
I did not know that.
Yes.
And former Denver Broncolinebacker, John Wending.
I

Speaker 3 (20:24):
don't know who that

Angela (20:25):
is mean.
Uh, I think he was bornin the eighties, so, so

Speaker 3 (20:31):
younger than me.

Angela (20:32):
Yeah.
I don't know how longhe was the linebacker.
By time.

John (20:37):
Because I'm not the big sports guy either.
This is true.
You're like, I was working onthis, uh, this NFL guy's house.
And they're like, you don't know.
I was like, I don't dunno.
I don't know who it is.
Who the hell do I, whydo I, why do I care?
I mean, one time I was working ata place and John Elway showed up.
I did recognize him, but

Angela (20:58):
yeah.
Well, I'm gonna tell him.
My brother, when he was in themilitary, he was stuck in, um,
the airport in Alabama somewhere.
Or maybe it was Atlanta, I can't remember.
And sat and had like an hour longconversation with Mc Hammer, no idea
who he was talking to respect nuts.

John (21:18):
And you know, that's a crazy thing about Cody too,
is we get famous people here.
Yeah.
All the freaking time.
Like

Angela (21:24):
Zenger buys boots, here he is walking down Main Street people are,

John (21:27):
oh yeah.
James Hatfield's here all the time.
Um.
Um,

Angela (21:32):
uh, stone Cold.
Steve Austin's beenhere a handful of times.

John (21:35):
Kevin Costner was apparently just here.
I saw somebody took pictures of himwith him on Main Street just like
a month ago or something like that.
I mean, it's all the time.

Angela (21:45):
I can say it now.
Matthew McConaughey was here a coupleweeks ago doing some commercials.

John (21:49):
Yeah, it's Cody's, I mean, there's a lot of famous people that end up here.
Oh, yeah.
Kenya Tucker was here.
Oh

Angela (21:56):
yeah.

John (21:57):
Partying her ass off.

Angela (21:58):
Asies.

John (21:59):
Yep.
Yeah.

Angela (22:01):
So I'll wrap up this little trip to Cody by mentioning
that it was voted 2020 three's.
Best Western small town by USA today.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
It's a pretty great town.
I'm, I like it.
Pretty happy to live here.

Angela (22:12):
Me

Speaker 3 (22:12):
too.

Angela (22:13):
The final tiniest place ever
cut.
Yeah.
I will mention is Manita, Wyoming, andManita is so small that I actually cannot
believe it's even on the map when lookingfor population information of any kind.
I was met with the following quote.
Manita.
Wyoming has no official or publiclyavailable population data because

(22:36):
it is a former village, not anincorporated municipality, and its
status as a former village means itis not tracked by the US Census as a
distinct population center end quote.

John (22:48):
Yeah, and I bet there's nobody famous from there.

Angela (22:51):
Oh, yeah.
Well, one,

John (22:53):
right?
Well, famous, infamous.

Angela (22:55):
Yeah.
Another quote I was, or I foundthat I will share is this named for
a town in Iowa and established in1906 as a railway stop in this sh.
In the Chicago and Northwesternrailroad line, while historically
it was a small town with stores, ahotel and sheath sharing facilities.

(23:16):
Today is, it is a sparse area witha few businesses and is near the
location of the Manita Divide NaturalGas and Oil Development Project.
It's notable for being closed tothe geographic center of Wyoming and
is it located on us for about 26?
About 20 miles east of Shoshone,Wyoming post office was opened

(23:37):
in 1906 and closed in 1972.
And the only real significance it hasto us is the very sad and disturbing
relation it has with this case.

John (23:48):
Yeah, and you know, I gotta say, um.
I don't know of any businesses there.
It must be just like homebusinesses or like Yeah.
Guys that have their own weldingtruck or something like that.
'cause they're sure as shit isNo stores or anything there?

Angela (24:02):
Yeah.
Well they don't have a post officeanymore since, even before you and I were

John (24:06):
both born.
No, it's literally nothing.
A dot on a map.
There's like,

Angela (24:11):
how is

John (24:11):
it?
Four trailer houses?
Yeah.
Off the side of the road.
That's it.

Angela (24:16):
How is it even allowed to come?
I don't know.
Anyway, that's, that'senough of my constant.

John (24:22):
Well, thank you for that.
I appreciate it.
You're welcome.
The water moves slow that morning.
It was April 2nd, 1988, just after dawnwhen a driver noticed something strange
along North Platte River, near theold bridge on the outskirts of Casper.
He pulled over, walked to the edge, andsaw something pale, tangled in the reeds.

(24:48):
Not a branch, not debris, something human.
Lisa had been missingfor over a week and now.
She has surfaced, not by choice, not bymiracle, but because the river couldn't
hold her any longer, her body was foundnude, bound with rope and a heavy object.

(25:10):
The spring thaw had dislodgedher, and for the first time in her
disappearance, the silence had broken.
This is where hope ends andwhere the questions begin.
So the last time we kinda wentthrough, you know, Lisa's whole

(25:33):
story, she's living down in Aurora,Denver, Aurora area with her mom.
Um, and they're commuting back andforth, you know, from Aurora to.
Billings pretty much every weekend.
And then, you know, just areminder, her mom had a ski
trip scheduled for that weekend.
So she flew home.
Lisa was gonna drive from Denver toCody, where she was gonna meet up with

(25:57):
her relatively new boyfriend, ed Roche.
And then they were gonna stay the night,and then they were gonna get up and head
up and up to Billings for the Easterweekend and she was gonna introduce
him to her family and all the Easterfestivities and all that kinda stuff.
And then she was pulled over justoutside of Douglas for speeding.

(26:21):
Taken to Douglas, couldn'tget money from the ATM.
And so the officer lether go about her way.
And that was the lastconfirmed sighting of her.
Um.
Then she just, she just disappeared.
And so then nothing, therewas literally nothing.

(26:41):
And then on April 2nd, 88, whichwas eight days after she had
disappeared, um, that's when her bodywas found in the river in Casper.
And so the time of day that herbody was discovered was listed
as early afternoon, and it was inthe North Platte River in Casper.

(27:02):
And her body was floating face downin a clump of weeds, approximately
a quarter mile downstream fromthe old government bridge.
And I think, uh, the, during the lastepisode, you pulled up a picture of
the government bridge and you know, soanybody that's curious, it's easy to
find a picture of it on the internet.
And so the old government bridgeis an old trestle bridge and.

(27:26):
It's not really heavily used, butit is believed to be the murder and
the disposal site, um, for Lisa.
And then, you know, like I said, it'skind of in Casper and you know, Casper
has grown so much since 88 that it's evenmore in Casper, you know, and she was
discovered by, um, a local fisherman bythe name of Greg Bradford from Casper.

(27:52):
And so I heard itreported that it was him.
And then I heard it reported therewere two fishermen, one like walking
or I, I don't know, it wasn'texactly clear in the only name that
I could find was Greg Bradford.
But it was noted that one of 'em wasfrom Billings, Montana, so maybe it was
him and a buddy or something like that.

(28:13):
But they obviously notified authoritiesimmediately and they got there and they
discovered her partially nude body.
Um, she was pretty much.
Only had her socks on andthat was pretty much it.
She was floating, like I said, face down.
Um, and no significant decompositionwhatsoever, which kind of struck home.

(28:40):
I mean, it was pretty cold still.
And you know, for those that aren'tfrom Wyoming, it might sound a
little bit odd, but April 2nd canbe damn cold still in Wyoming.
And so May can be cold once.
Yeah, I mean, I've said andwatched the 4th of July parade in
a snow, snow storm more than once.
So.

Angela (28:59):
Well that's trick.

John (29:00):
Yeah, it's very much true.
So, um, there was signs of, yeah, I mean,she was bound with, with ropes and cords.
There was evidence of beating.
She had bruises.
Yeah.
Blunt force trauma and stab wounds,multiple stab wounds to her chest and
abdomen and her body showed signs ofsexual assault and then obviously being

(29:23):
dumped into the river from the bridge.
And so.
Like I do, we're going to be discussingthe autopsy findings, so if that's
sensitive to you or whatever, then youknow, fast forward a little bit to jump
past this because it's always brutaltalking about this kinda shit, you know,
so, but the autopsy was conducted by theNatron County coroner, gene Thorpe, and

(29:48):
he determined that the cause of deathwas a combination of blunt force trauma
to the head, which would've been fatalwithin minutes and six stab wounds to
the chest in the abdomen, which werearranged in a unique circular pattern.
Her time of death was estimated to bearound March 31st to April 1st, and that

(30:11):
means that she was killed just hoursbefore her body was found in the river,
which also means that she would'vebeen held captive for approximately
six to seven days after her abduction.
Still around somewhere.
Oh, yeah, around her, yeah.
Um, additional details arethat she was severely beaten.

(30:32):
She was bound during her captivity.
She was raped repeatedly.
There was seminal fluid evidencethat was collected from her body.
Okay.
Um, no defensive wounds were noted, butthen in other reports it's, I wasn't
able to find the actual autopsy report.
So some of them said there wasno defensive wounds and others
reported defensive wounds.

(30:54):
I suspect with the length ofcaptivity that she likely had some.
Defensive wounds and other wounds thatwere, you know, part of that for sure,

Angela (31:07):
someone was probably covered up by the beatings and

John (31:11):
Right not.
Yes.
The, the toxicology report wasclear there was no drugs or alcohol
that were found in her body at all.
So the, obviously once they findthe body, the immediate response was
to get the body out of the water.
And this fell into the jurisdictionof the Natrona County Sheriff's
Office and the Wyoming Highway Patrol.

(31:34):
She was quickly identified asthe missing Lisa Marie Kimmel.
And, you know, there wasa few reasons for that.
One, it was a huge story.
It went everywhere, almost instantly.
And, you know, Wyoming just doesn't,didn't have a lot of missing people.
And so we have, uh, during this periodof time, we essentially have one

(31:56):
girl that matches this descriptionthat's missing from this area.
So it made it.
Pretty quick for 'em to be ableto determine who it likely was.
And then they used dental recordsand, um, matched it to the missing
persons case and confirmed that itdefinitely was Lisa Marie Kimmel.
And then, um, sadly her parents, Ron andSheila were informed on that same day.

(32:23):
And Sheila would later say,you know, in her book, which
she wrote, called The Murder ofLittle Miss as the Worst Possible
Nightmare, which I can only imagine.
And then, you know, like Isaid, news spread rapidly.
It was freaking everywhere,almost immediately.

(32:44):
And.
You, you know, a lot of that comes backto that license plate, and we're gonna
mention it time and time and time again.
That little miss license plate,I think it just, it really
played well with the press.
And so this, this story was picked upeverywhere, even nationally, right away.

(33:05):
So the evidence showed that the bodylocation indicated that it was dumped
from upstream and there was no vehicleor any personals that were found nearby.
So investigators went up onto theold government bridge and they
found a pool of blood, which theyconfirmed to be leases on the bridge.

(33:27):
And there were also,um, signs of a struggle.
And so they pretty quickly determinedthat the murder happened on the bridge.
So they figured that she was takenout of the vehicle on the bridge.
And was bludgeoned and stabbedright on the bridge and then
throwing over the bridge.

(33:50):
Um, at some, at somepoint with no witnesses.
Yeah, with no witnesses.
But you know, I mean, if thishappened in the middle of the
night or, you know, early morning,it doesn't really surprise me.
You know, initially it was reported that,um, there was a strange car on the bridge,

(34:10):
possibly her own car on the bridge,March 26th of 88, um, which would've
been the day after she went missing.
So originally there was thisbelief that she was killed almost
immediately, about five hours aftershe received that speeding ticket.
But later the autopsy confirmed thatshe had not been dead that long.

(34:34):
And so there was conflictingwitness sightings of Lisa's car
after that, literally hundreds.
And I, I remember this so clearlyduring the period of time that she was
missing, um, from March 25th to April thesecond, there were sightings of her car.

(34:56):
Everywhere.
I mean, I can remember them reportingsightings in like Washington and
all over Montana and Wyoming, andit was, it's a strange how that
happens, you know, because it's,her license plate was so distinct.
It wasn't just the, it was the Honda thatthey were reporting, they were reporting

(35:17):
this car with these license plates.
And so I don't know if it was people justmaking shit up or what it was, but it
was strange and I remember it happening.

Angela (35:28):
It's basically how far and how fast people want you
to believe a car has gotten.

John (35:34):
Exactly, yes.
And so, um, you know, like I said, thelead agencies in this case were the
County Sheriff's Office, the WyomingDivision of Criminal Investigation.
And then the FBI was involved later.
And so was the DEA, which.
I'm not entirely clear on exactly whythat is, and we'll be diving into that

(35:56):
a little deeper in later episodes.

Angela (35:58):
Agency?

John (35:59):
Yeah, or at least, at least one of the investigators was DEA, because
he's one of the ones that I actuallytried to reach out to and contact,
but unfortunately he's deceased now.
But he was certain that her killer was.
A serial killer withmultiple other victims.
And I think, obviously, I believethat he was dead on with that.

(36:24):
And then after the body was found,there were extensive searches for
that black 88 Honda CRX with thosedistinct low mess license plates.
I mean, there were air searches.
There were, I mean, I can remember asa kid just watching for this car as

(36:44):
we were, as we were driving around.
Like I said, I was like11, so I wasn't driving.
But I can remember like.
Going to being driven to school andstuff, and I'm looking for this car and

Angela (36:55):
John's gonna find her.

John (36:56):
Yes.
I can remember that very clearly.
And I certainly wasn't alone because itwas like this entire area was searching
for this car and it didn't stop.
Once her body was found.
I mean, it continued and it continuedand as we'll be talking about, it's
a long time before we find that car.

Angela (37:16):
I remember Hush talks about it, but I was still young enough that they

John (37:21):
Yeah, you would've still been pretty young.
So I

Angela (37:24):
was, what, I'm two years.
I was like 90.
So, but So it would've been like hushtalks like they think we can't hear,
right?
Yeah.
But we can.
Definitely not as deep as you were.

John (37:39):
Yeah.
I can remember like talking withmy buddies at school about this
and stuff, like, it was huge.
But you know, there's a world ofdifference between like an eight or
9-year-old and an 11, 12-year-old when itcomes to, you know, kind of knowing what's
going on in the greater world around you.
It's just like a, and so, and,

Angela (37:58):
and being worried about it, I wasn't.
As worried about it as you would been,

John (38:03):
right?
Yep.
And then too, like I said, I hadolder siblings that were like her age.
Mm-hmm.
And so I think it affectedme more too because of that.
It just, I don't know, this case justreally hit me hard as a little kid.
I remember so vividly all of this.
And then, you know, severalwitnesses came forward.

(38:25):
They gave composite sketches ofmore than 17 men from different
sightings, but there was no officialrelease due to the inconsistencies.
'cause they ranged like allover the freaking place.
Like a guy that's 250 pounds witha, with a beard and a young guy
that's 150 pounds in no hair.

(38:48):
I mean, I mean, you know, obviouslythose aren't exactly it, but it was
like completely different descriptions.
And, you know, later we'll know why.
And that is becausenobody saw this happen.
So spoiler alert, the the case isgonna remain unsolved for 14 years

(39:11):
until 2002 when there's a DNA matchto a particular piece of shit.
But discussing the initial investigation,um, iTry reveal's a case that is marked
by resource constraints, considerableprocedural challenges and confusion
stemming from numerous unconfirmedleads and community frustration.

(39:33):
And I will say that this is a case whereI think the public help almost hindered
the investigation more than it helpedit because, because this case just went.
Like wildfire all over the freaking place.
There were so many tipsthat were called in.
And you know, the officers,of course, they gotta search

(39:56):
down every one of these tips.
They gotta investigateevery one of these tips.
And so their resources are reallystreamed by trying to do that.
And so we know thatthere are early actions.
Focused on what happened afterLisa was last seen at that speeding
stop near Douglas and her disapp.

(40:18):
Her disappearance was reportedquickly to law enforcement in multiple
different states, and the focuswas on broad searches for that car.
Like I said, and early on, investigatorstheorized that the killer was likely
local as evidence indicated that Lisawas murdered and deposited off of
the government bridge, which wasn'treally commonly used and was a little

(40:42):
bit of a hard to access location.
And you know, the blood that was foundon the bridge supported this theory.
And local law enforcement initiallybelieved that she was killed within hours
of that speeding ticket, like I said.
And then witnesses claimedthat they saw her car.
Sometimes they saw Lisa as well,all across various Wyoming towns,

(41:07):
the neighboring states, like Isaid, even after her presumed death.
And that further complicates thetimeline and the focus of the search.
And some of these sightings wereconsidered very reliable at the time,
as such as the alleged appearancesof Lisa and her car in both Buffalo
and in Casper, Wyoming hours, or evena few days after her last confirmed

(41:32):
sighting, but before her body was found.
But none of these could everbe substantiated as being Lisa.
And we know now that it'salmost certain that it was not.
But the investigation wasflooded with over 300 tips about
the little miss license plate.

(41:52):
And Lisa's car, which like I said, drainedthe resources, diverted attention from
potential stronger leads and multiplesimilar cars, caused a lot of confusion.
It was a relatively popular car,maybe not in Wyoming, but in the,
like this whole western region.

(42:13):
It was a pretty damn popularcar prestige plate back then.
Were were rare.
Yeah.
You know, and obviously Montana had'em, Wyoming didn't have 'em back then.
I don't believe I, we didn't haveenough numbers in our license
plates seriously, to have 'em.
But um, I remember, I always thoughtit was really cool 'cause Montana did.

(42:34):
'cause they had all the numbers intheir license plates, which, which why

Angela (42:37):
they added another space in this year

John (42:40):
to the license plates.

Angela (42:41):
Wyoming.
Yeah.

John (42:42):
Yep.
But, you know, so we had multiplesimilar cars all over the freaking place.
And even though some of those driversvolunteered their records to clear up
any confusion, um, which distinguishher cars from others and all that
kinda stuff, all of that takes timeand all of that takes resources.
And so, you know, Casper and NaronCounty, it's one of the larger, um,

(43:08):
departments in the state of Wyoming.
Sure.
But it's still tiny comparedto, you know, large city.
Investigative forces.
I mean it's, it really strainedtheir resource resources.
And then, you know, the investigatorsfaced this vast geographic
challenge with limited manpower andWyoming and Montana's large sizes.

(43:32):
Both of these are big damn stateswith this very sparse law enforcement.
And you can see that forboth Wyoming and Montana.
Montana's really no different, withthe exception of a few of the large
cities like the one you talkedabout, billings being the largest,
which even like Wyoming, the largestcity in Montana is not very big.
Yeah.

(43:52):
In comparison, you know, and thevast majority of the towns are tiny
all across both of these states.
So we have huge areas withvery little law enforcement.
So that meant that physicalsearches were slow and inter-agency
coordination was definitely hampered.
And then we're talking still 1988,so this wasn't, you know, 20, 25.

(44:15):
So a lot of them still had manualrecord keeping, poor communication
technology, which was prevalentall throughout the eighties.
And especially in smaller departments,you know, as it as it just happens,
your larger departments get thefancy stuff right away, but it's
hard for small departments to justifythe expense of a lot of that stuff.

(44:38):
And that's kind of what wewere faced with at this period.
And you know, to be perfectly honest,it's what we're still faced with now
and what we'll always be faced with is.
There's just not enough tax revenue whenyou have no population to support huge
expenditures for all the fancy gadgets.
You know, we had the physical evidencesuch as Lisa's rape kit was not

(45:02):
actionable for years due to the.
To the state of DNA technology in 1988.
It was, I mean, we had it.
We knew about it, but it was sofreaking limited in 88, like you
were just kind of starting to hearsome talk about this weird DNA thing.

(45:25):
People, you know, I can remember whenyou started hearing about it and it was
so mystical and confusing and mystical.
It really was.
It was like this magicthing inside you that.
Tells everybody's dlike what, who you are.
This is CRE

Angela (45:42):
related.

John (45:42):
This is crazy science fiction talk.
Yep.
And so, you know, therewere a lot of witchcraft.
It was, yeah, it was witchcraft.
Um, there were a lot of familydriven searches because of
the limited state resources.
Much of the searching for Lisa's carwas supported by the family and by
community volunteers with aerial searches.

(46:04):
And, you know, they did likefundraisers and stuff to fill the gaps
to pay for the searching and stuff.
And her family was extremely active,which, you know, is usually the case.
But, um, you know, I, I just remember.
I remember so many, um, they were onthe news all the time talking about
this, and they really worked to keepher, her story in the front of people's

(46:29):
minds with their mom even writinga book about it, you know, which
is pretty huge, how hard that was.
Oh, it had to be extremely difficult.
Um, officers from both Montana andWyoming Express difficulty keeping
up with the volume of tips and thedistances involved between those tips.

(46:50):
You know, you have somebody's.
Say in Missoula, Montana report thatthey saw Lisa's car and then you have
somebody in Rollins, Wyoming reportthat, and so you're literally a thousand
miles apart as crazy as it seems.
That's what was going on.

(47:10):
Or like I said, I remember reportsin Washington state and you know,
Southern Wyoming and stuff like that.
So you're talking huge distanceswith very small departments and so.
And then a lack of specializedinvestigative and forensic resources
in those rural areas left significantinvestigative gaps, particularly regarding

(47:36):
any kind of advanced forensic processing.
And this is in no way their fault at all.
It's just was the natureof the beast, you know?
And luckily we've come to a placewhere DNA testing has become
relatively inexpensive in comparisonto what it was in the late

(47:57):
eighties and early nineties, but.
You know, back then it wasn't at all crazyfor DNA testing to cost 10 to $20,000.
And that was in 1988 or 1990 money.
And take months.
And take months.
Yes.
And so, um, you know, and then therewas the lack of any integrated state

(48:21):
and national missing persons orforensic databases, which meant that
crucial information sharing was slowand sometimes arriving too late to be
useful for any police field efforts.
You know, I mean, this was back inthe time, this was before NamUs.
NamUs wasn't around back theneither, so there was really nothing.
So literally you would, you wouldget a call that says, I saw her

(48:45):
car in Green River two weeks ago.
And you're like, oh, well great thanks.
But two weeks ago, sorry, ourDeLorean's broken currently.
So, you know, and that's just really.
What happened.
And so there was a lot of communityfrustration, which was centered on law

(49:05):
enforcement's inability to find Lisa'scar for years despite, you know, that
very memorable little miss license plate.
And then, you know, we're gonnadiscover that the car is found buried
on douche bag's property years later.
Yeah.
And so, you know, and I really hopethat all the people that were attacking

(49:28):
the police were paying attentionwhen that car was found because it's
pretty much impossible to find thatcar when it's buried in the ground.
Yeah.
And I don't think I've evereven heard of that shit before.
I think this is the one case,I'm not saying it's the only
case that's ever happened.
Yeah.
I'm saying it's the only case thatI think I've ever heard of where

(49:49):
a car, the entire car is buried.
Yeah.
Um, dumped in rivers.
Dumped in lakes, dumped in cavesand holes in the ground set on fire.
I've heard all of that, but somebodyactually burying an entire intact car.
Like I said, I'm sure I don'thave an encyclopedic knowledge of

(50:13):
every true crime case ever, but.
All of them.
I've researched, I've neverheard of that shit before.
This one definitely stands out.
And you know, I mean, honestly, alot of that goes to just how remote
Manita Wyoming is because you canhave somebody out there with a backhoe

(50:34):
digging a freaking hole big enough tobury a car in and not raise suspicions.
And then there was, you know,there was public mistrust.
There was conflicting informationsurrounding sightings, unsuccessful
ground in aerial searches and divergentinvestigative theories, which created
public and family, family mistrust.

(50:57):
The community was often moreactive and organized in searching
than law enforcement agenciesthat were tasked with the case.
And so to kind of sum up theinvestigative challenges we have.
More than 300 sightings.
Most of them unverifiedat all of 'em being false.

(51:18):
But those wasted resources and leadinvestigations astray, we had to
search for the car, multiple similarvehicles, over a huge geography.
And we know that the car is notgonna be found for 14 years, which
was a major controver controversy.
Then we have the forensic technology.
DNA testing was really unavailable foryears, and so key evidence was shelved

(51:43):
into until the 2002 breakthrough.
Then we have interagency work manual andpaper systems, poor cross referencing
between state and federal agencies,and so search efforts were hampered.
Communication was slow, and thenthe community role relied on family

(52:04):
volunteers, and everybody was frustratedwith police and community trust
and confidence in law enforcementdefinitely waned in this case.
What did you find out?

Angela (52:15):
So it says it's impossible to know the exact number of
murders in which an entire car wasburied because there's no official
database that tracks such specific.
Information with crime.
However, three.
The top three that pop up, wannaguess who the first one is?

John (52:35):
Delane Eaton.

Angela (52:35):
It is.
The second one is the IOA Cousins in 2020.
And the third one is Atherton, CaliforniaIn 2022, an entire Mercedes-Benz was
buried in the backyard of Imagine.

John (52:49):
Huh?
And I don't know, I'm not familiarwith either one of those cases.
Might have to research 'em now.
Thanks a lot.
You're welcome.

Angela (52:57):
There's no database that actually specifically cite that stuff,

John (53:01):
which doesn't surprise me, but you can usually get a pretty
good idea of how common it is byjust doing a search like that.
And when,

Angela (53:09):
yeah,

John (53:09):
you know, five pages of results come back, you know
that it's a pretty common thing.
And when there's three, one ofthem being the one in Wyoming,
it tells you it's very rare.
And of course it's very rare, youknow, it's hard enough, your car,
it's hard enough to dig a graveand bury a body without somebody

(53:30):
seeing what's what's going on.
But to bury a freaking car, yeah,but like I say, it's only because
it's Manita, Wyoming, his neighborssaw him using a backhoe, but he told
them, I'm digging in a septic tank.
And they were probably like, oh good.
That creepy bastard's finally gonnaget his shit in a tank instead of

(53:50):
taking a crap in a five gallon bucket.
So, I mean, when we get to talking abouthis quote unquote house, the way that
this man lived, there's animals thatlive better in better conditions and keep
themselves cleaner than this freaking pig.

(54:11):
So, um, I did mention that theautopsy a little bit in the beginning,
but now we're going to go intodetail in the autopsy findings.
And so trigger warning, again,just call, let everybody know.
So, like I said earlier, the autopsy wasconducted by another, the Nitro County
coroner, James Thorpe, and it was, it, itoccurred on either April 2nd or April 3rd.

(54:37):
It would've been just shortlyafter the body was discovered, and
it happened in Casper, Wyoming.
The, you know, obviously the cause ofdeath was her official cause of death
was blood loss due to stab wounds,and she had also been struck in the
head, which would've been fatal evenif she hadn't have bled to death.

(54:58):
So she was hit hard enough that itwould've killed her, but then she
was stabbed soon enough after it thatshe died of extermination from the
stabbing, but the head wound alonewould have killed her within minutes.
Then speaking about the stab wounds,she had six stab wounds to her chest and

(55:21):
her abdomen, all in her vital organs.
And Sheriff Ron Ketchum initially statedthat the manner in which she had been
stabbed was a quote unquote uniquemethod, which he couldn't release for
fear of corrupting the investigation.
And FBI agents later suggested thatthe knife wounds five in a pentagram

(55:44):
pattern on the chest with six, with asixth under her sternum indicating a
possible cult connection as they hadseen in ritualistic murders before.
There's no.
Cultic connection to this case.
But I

Angela (56:01):
was about to ask you if he was culty or not.
If he was trying to,

John (56:04):
I think he's too dumb to be, he's just creepy.
But no, there's nocultic connection at all.
But,

Angela (56:12):
and you think he's too dumb to be blaming it on a cultic thing to

John (56:16):
I think he's too dumb to practice via a cult.

Angela (56:19):
Okay.

John (56:20):
I think he's too dumb to understand.
Gotcha.
But you know, this is during thepeak of the Satanic panic of the
late eighties and early 1990s.
And so everything was a cultic back then.
So it doesn't surprise me.
I don't know.
You sneeze three times.
Yeah.
You're exactly, you're a witch.

(56:42):
Mm-hmm.
And so.
I don't know if there is any significance.
Nothing has ever come out to saythat there was significance to
the way that she was stabbed.
I find it beyond interesting thatall stab wounds hit a major organ.
That's not easy to do without practice.

Angela (57:04):
I feel like he might have known
a little bit more than you want to
believe he knew.

John (57:12):
Oh, I believe he knew.
Okay.
A lot.
I think that he had already killedmultiple women by this point.
Okay.
And so.
I, I have every reason to believethat he knew exactly where the
vital organs would've been.
Okay.
I don't think that there was anyritualistic or occultic connection,

(57:32):
but it doesn't surprise me atall that he knew exactly where
to stab somebody to kill them.
Um, because like I've said multipletimes this season, I think he
was guilty of, I think he was.
He's at least a very high candidatefor me, for the Elco County murders.
Mm-hmm.
Um, which started in 72.

(57:54):
So we're talking a long time beforeLisa, but I think he, I think by 1988,
he had been killing for a while now.
If you don't buy the Elco Countyconnection, then he turned himself
into police in 82 saying thathe was afraid he was gonna do

(58:14):
something bad and hurt somebody.
So even if you don't believe that hewas involved in the Elco murders, I
do believe that he was very likelyinvolved in like Janelle Johnson,
who we've already talked about.
And, you know, there were several murders,which we've discussed in and around Manita
and Wyoming in 82, 83, right after hewas afraid he was gonna hurt somebody.

(58:39):
Right?
Some of those fit, someof those don't fit.
But as, as I discussed in Janelle'sepisode, I think he's the most
likely for Janelle's case.
So they just didn't take him seriously,or Oh, he went, he was seen by some
doctors and stuff and you know, back.
In 82, um, they diagnosed him with,and I'll be discussing it when

(59:03):
we discuss him in more detail.
It was one of those weird assthings that they don't use anymore.
Uh, one of, you know, like theyused to describe mental I illness as

Angela (59:14):
hysteria,

John (59:15):
like hysteria and stuff like that.
It wasn't hysteria, but it wassomething, it was a, it was a
term that they don't use anymore,which was just kind of a catchall.
He's having a bad daykind of freaking thing.
You know,

Angela (59:28):
a bad day.

John (59:30):
But I mean, it really is how mental health was treated until pretty recently.
Really.
It was just like, suck it up, put your bigboy pants on and stop acting like a baby.
And so there wasn't a lot of help.
Um, and unfortunately, and you guys willhear me say this over and over and over
and over and over again, unfortunatelywe can't lock these people up when they

(59:54):
say they're gonna kill somebody, whichdefies reason to me, but whatever,

Angela (59:59):
because they're clearly asking for help.

John (01:00:01):
Clearly, and they're clearly a danger to people.
So, but anyway, back to the autopsy.
Um, she had been struck in the head withsome kind of a blunt object, and then
she had bruises and abrasions on herwrists, ankles, arms and legs, consistent
with being bound by nylon or hemp rope.

(01:00:24):
And again, there was a, a lack, a, anoting of a lack of defensive wounds.
Um, authorities assumed that she wasunconscious when she was struck in the
head and thrown into the water, whichI'm sure she would've been rendered
unconscious by the blow to the head.
But I have to believe that therewould've been a series of wounds

(01:00:46):
from her six days in captivity.
I find that hard to believe.
And then, um, you know, likeI already alluded to, Lisa had
been sexually assaulted male.
DNA was found on her genitals and onthe underwear that she was wearing.
The DNA was later matched too.
Del Wayne Eaton.

(01:01:06):
And while her body was discovered eightdays after her disappearance, the autopsy
determined that she had been dead formaybe 36 hours before her discovery.
And so this led investigators to believethat she could have been alive and
held captive for as long as seven days.
Well, her mother, Sheila, believed thather daughter died on March 31st, March

(01:01:28):
31st, six days after she was last seen.
And um, then the crime scene, a poolof blood matching, Lisa's blood type.
Again, this is before DNA, so bloodtype is what we had back then.
But a pool of blood matching her DNAor, I mean, her blood type was found on
the old government bridge, a quarter ofa mile from where her body was found.

(01:01:52):
But that definitely suggestedthat she was killed, or at least.
Critically injured on the bridgeand then thrown into the water.
The fact that, um, she was well, the factthat water was not found in her lungs,
or at least it was not noted in theautopsy, I believe that she was almost

(01:02:13):
certainly dead before she hit the waterbecause there would've been, even one
breath would've left water in her lungs.
And so with six stab woundsto major organs, she would've
bled out almost instantly.
So she had trauma to her genitalregion injuries consistent with forced

(01:02:35):
penetration, bruising, and lacerationsin the pelvic region with the seminal
fluid which was collected from the body.
So the medical examiner determinedthat assaults occurred during
her period of captivity, multipleinstances over several days.

(01:02:55):
So the time of death couldn't be, I mean,it couldn't be determined to the day.
So it was estimated to be between March31st and April 1st, and that was based
on the condition of the body, minimaldecomposition, stomach, contents, rigor,
mortis, rigor and mortis analysis.

(01:03:16):
And we know that she waslast seen on March 25th.
There's no possible way.
That she could have been killedon that day just because of
the condition of the body.
And then, like I said, toxicologyreport came back clean.
No drugs or alcohol werereported in her system.
There were, they were definitelynot a factor in her death.
Ligature marks indicated prolongedbinding, consistent with captivity

(01:03:40):
in some isolated location.
Yes.

Angela (01:03:43):
What's the half life though?
Could, could he have drugged herto subdue her when I took her?

John (01:03:48):
Absolutely.

Angela (01:03:49):
Could have.
And that would've been gone by then?

John (01:03:51):
Almost all of 'em, almost all drugs would've gone, been gone by seven days.
Yeah,

Angela (01:03:57):
that would explain less, um, wounds.
Think help.

John (01:04:03):
Um, so yeah.
Less, less wounds during captivity.

Angela (01:04:08):
Yeah.
Well, less, uh.

John (01:04:10):
Defensive witch.

Angela (01:04:10):
Thank you.
Like it's there.

John (01:04:13):
Yeah.
Potentially.
There's no indication that he drugged her.
I don't believe that he did.
I don't think he was smart enoughto do some shit like that, honestly.
Really?
No.
Okay.
I think that he grabbed her, um,you know, he would later tell
stories, which we'll talk about inlater episodes of what happened.
I don't know that we can believe what hesays, but he did say that he, that she

(01:04:36):
picked him up hitchhiking me and a lotof the investigators believe that she
was very likely taken from the rest area.
That's right.
By Manita.
And if you've ever driven betweenCasper and Shoshone, Wyoming, it's
the only rest area on that road.
Yeah.
And so, you know, it's, you know,she was, she left Denver, she

(01:04:57):
was, you know, treking it home.
She got pulled over, whichslowed her down a little bit and.
You know, may, did you see theblack friend excited to, yeah.
And, and so maybe she didn't stop inCasper, but then by the time she got
there, she like really needed to be,so she pulled over at the rest station.
And then there are people toothat just hit rest areas and not

(01:05:20):
gas stations because it's faster.
You just literally can run in,there's usually multiple stalls.
You don't have to wait in line.
Yep.
You can get in there, use thebathroom and get on the road.
And, you know, I can't confirm this,but the fact that she had traveled
that road so many times with her mom,that might've been kind of the routine.

(01:05:40):
We always stopped at thisrest area and used a bathroom.
So it's just forced a habit.
That's what she does.
Exactly.
Yep.
And you know, when there's two of you,there's a lot less to worry about than
if there's, if you're by yourself.
And so, and honestly, but she would've

Angela (01:05:54):
thought, we've done this a

John (01:05:55):
million

Angela (01:05:56):
times, we've been fine.

John (01:05:57):
I'll be fine.
And honestly, you know, even obviouslyI was 11 in 1988, but even when I
was a young kid just driving 16, 17years old, I mean, I never feared
stopping at a rest area in Wyoming.
I never feared anythingin freaking Wyoming.

Angela (01:06:16):
I did.
But we've established that I'm weird.

John (01:06:20):
Well, and I know that there's a difference between like a guy and
a girl and all that kinda stuff, but.
I, I, I would, I would say that evengirls in Wyoming, while you might have
been grown up, you know, being toldyou need to be cautious, you need to be
aware and all this kinda stuff, it wassomething that happened somewhere else.
It wasn't something thathappened in Wyoming.

(01:06:42):
It was very much not somethingthat happened in Wyoming.
Now going back and readingand learning about the, yeah.
Freaking rash of murders that weregoing on in the eighties, it's insane.
But that shit was not talked about.
I had no clue.
And I recently wastalked, was fully unaware.

(01:07:03):
Yeah.
And recently I was talking to myparents about this and I was like,
did you have any idea that, you know,we had these four people that were
murdered in Rollins, Wyoming in 74.
We had all these women that weredisappearing and being found murdered
through the eighties, all across Wyoming.
And they were like.
No.

(01:07:24):
Like they think they can remember hearingabout the Rollins thing somewhat, but
they didn't hear about all of this.
It just,

Angela (01:07:31):
I guess your mom was like, you know too much.
You hate this.

John (01:07:36):
No, she's very supportive.
But yeah, I mean, they just, they hadno memory of it whatsoever either,
and I don't think that anybody did.
But you know, you really put yourselfback in there in that time period.
Like I've said before, growing upwhere we did, I had very, myself,
I had very limited access to tv.

(01:07:58):
The only stations that I could getback in that time were from Billings.
Mm-hmm.
Well, billings didn't really report alot of, at least Central Wyoming news.
Yeah.
Sometimes they would pick up some ofthe news in the Northwestern part of
the Wyoming, but they weren't reallyreporting on what was going on there.
That would've been Casper.

(01:08:18):
And we didn't get Casper channels uphere, and I would say a vast majority
of Wyoming didn't get Casper news.
And so it, it's just the reality andit's still that way, quite frankly.
But we do have, you know, like.
We, we have the internet now.
Oh.
So it makes, it, makes it possibleto get a lot of information, but back

(01:08:42):
then it would've literally just beennewspapers or the five o'clock news.
And unfortunately for us it was,yeah, it was Montana News, so we just
did not get this information at all.
I had no clue.
And so, uh, I think, I don't think I'm,I don't think I'm unique that I think

(01:09:05):
the vast majority of Wyoming reallyfelt it was a very, very safe place.
And it was a very safe place.
I mean, it was very, in comparison,there's a very, very, very low crime.
But I can see, and we'd like to keepit that damn right, we would, but I
can easily see a young girl having nofear stopping at night at that, at that

(01:09:30):
rest area in Manita, you know, I just.
I haven't set foot inthat rest area since 1988.
For the record, I still refuseto go to that rest area.

Angela (01:09:42):
I can't guarantee that I have no,

John (01:09:43):
I will hold it until I get to Casper Shoshone.
I will not go to that rest area.
I don't know, I, it's just somethingin my brain broke in 1988 and said

Angela (01:09:54):
no.

John (01:09:55):
Yes, and I will, I, I won't stop there.

Angela (01:09:58):
Keep reverence for that

John (01:09:59):
place.
Yep.
And it's funny because we don't knowfor sure, but you know, for all of
those years, from the time that wefigured out what happened to her, it
happened at that rest area for yearsand years and years and years until
it came out that he had another story.

(01:10:19):
But I still think that the vast majorityof people, including me, believe that
she was taken from that rest area.
In 1988, forensics had boundaries.
DNA testing existed, butit wasn't fast, it wasn't
widespread, and it wasn't enough.

(01:10:42):
There were no national databases,no real time sharing of results.
And for Lisa's case, thatmade delays in too many.
What investigators had was trauma,evidence of sexual assault,
bruising, bite marks, but no clearfingerprints, no clear suspect.

(01:11:03):
What they did have was her car,or rather what they didn't.
The black Honda CRX was still missing,but everyone remembered the plate.
Little miss.
Seven letters that told yousomething about who Lisa was.
Proud, kind unapologeticallyherself, but to the public.

(01:11:27):
And later the press, those letters becamesomething else, a symbol of innocence
stolen, a headline, shorthand for thecruelty that she endured, and eventually
a key to catching the man who took her.
But back in 1988, little Miss was just amissing plate on a missing car, and the

(01:11:51):
science wasn't ready for what came next.
In talking just a little bit aboutthe forensic limitations in 1988,
you know, forensic science in the, inthe late 1980s relied heavily on the

(01:12:15):
traditional methods like finger printing,ballistics blood typing, the A BO,
blood typing system, and basic serologylimited by technology resources and
knowledge compared to modern standards.
So at this period of time, we'restill very much, pretty much in
the same place they were in 1960.

(01:12:36):
I mean, there were smalladvancements, but nothing major.
And you know, DNA, like I said, itwas whispered about, it was talked
about, but it was invented or.
I mean, invented really isn't theright word when you're talking about D.
It was discovered by AlexJeffries, Alex Jeffries in 1984.

(01:12:58):
And it wasn't like discovered then thatit was, it had been discovered earlier,
but you know, the, it had kind of workedits way to a place where they decided
that this was something that we could use.
And that was in 1984.
So that was only four years beforeit was still an infant at the time.

(01:13:18):
Yes.
I mean, the first case that it wasused in was in 1986, only two years
before Lisa's murder, and thatwas the Pitchfork case in England.
It was introduced to the US courtsin 87 88 with the first conviction
of Tommy Lee Andrews in Florida,happening in November of 1988.

(01:13:42):
So, you know, that's just anidea of, it was a baby, like
you said, during this time.
Now before the era of crime dramasand rapid DNA matches the reality of
forensic science in 88 was way slower.
And you alluded to this a littlebit ago back then, if investigators

(01:14:04):
collected semen or blood, they werestuck with a method that was, that
was called RFLP, which is restrictionfragment length polymorphism.
It was the only DNA test that wasavailable back then, and it needed very
large and very pristine samples thathadn't been degraded in water or in heat.

(01:14:27):
And the process itself, like yousaid, could take weeks, months,
and there were only a handful.
Very specialized labs in like thewhole world that we're doing it,
you know, trusted people, right?
And it was a very, you know, avery, even a smaller percentage of

(01:14:48):
those labs were available to lawenforcement in the United States.
I mean, it was a very nichething during this period of time.
Very expensive.
And compare that to today's PCRtesting, which is polymerase
chain reaction, which can take atiny, tiny bit and then copy it.

(01:15:09):
Even the thinnest most damaged fragmentsof DNA can be essentially reconstructed
and copied until there's enough ofit that can be tested and it produces
results in days or even in hours.
But in Lisa's case, the evidence,thank God was just carefully preserved.

(01:15:31):
But the DNA technology justwas not ready for it yet.
And so that's why for over a decade, theanswer stayed locked away in an evidence
freezer until science finally caught up.
Yeah.
And so to understand theinvestigation's hurdles, imagine a
detective's day in rural Wyoming.

(01:15:51):
In 1988, there was no luminolspray to reveal hidden bloodstains,
just a flashlight and a keen eye.
Fingerprint searchesthis flashlight, right?
Fingerprint searches meant shufflingthrough paper files because there
weren't national databases, crimescene photos, everything in 88 was shot

(01:16:11):
on film with no real way to zoom inon a suspect's jacket and a computer
later, like we can do now, we couldn't

Angela (01:16:19):
magnifying glass,

John (01:16:20):
increase the pixels, and you know, we couldn't do all that.
Like you say, yeah, we had amagnifying glass, that was it.
Or like those.
I know those freaking machines that mygrandma had one, 'cause she had macular
degeneration and so she couldn't read.
So she, it was, it lookedlike a microfiche machine.
Except it, yeah, it was forlike pictures and stuff.

(01:16:41):
Yeah.
And it would blow 'em up.
It was like that kind of shit, you know.
And even simple evidence likecarpet fibers and hairs were
analyzed under a microscope.
There was no fancy DNA totell you who they belong to
with every piece of evidence.
They had to hope that nothingwas lost in the shuffle.
The chain of custody forms, physicalkeys to locked rooms, handwritten logs.

(01:17:07):
The smallest mistake could mean even,could mean evidence was gone forever.
And for the Kimel case, one misstepcould erase the only hope for answers
'Angela: cause now they can take a string and tell you which batch
of hoodies was made for this.

(01:17:27):
JC Penney's in what cityand town and match it.
And it's, I, it's, I find itinsane that they can do that.
This one string was in this batch of,
it's crazy because I'm, yeah, you're recalling a case a little
girl was kidnapped from a church.
I can't remember the name.
A case there's several.
No, but there's one in particular thatyou made me think of because a little

(01:17:50):
girl was, was kidnapped from a churchand then was found murdered tragically.
And she was wearing, uh, a. Ibelieve it was like a Muppets outfit.
It was like a little black and plaid.
Um, yeah, like a little plaid, blackand red plaid skirt and like a black top
with like big bird or something on it.

(01:18:12):
And investigators went to theJCPenney catalog, which if your
kid from the eighties penny out ofthe air, it was the wish book that
you got every freaking Christmas.
Most exciting thing ever.
And

Angela (01:18:27):
sit with that magazine, a marker for hours.

John (01:18:29):
He sat down with the, with the JC Penney wish book, and he found
that outfit and he wrote JC Penney'sand they sent him the outfit and they
had used, um, a particular dye for, Ithink it was Big Bird, and it was the
yellow in like his beak or some shit,which was trademarked to so straight.

(01:18:53):
Yeah.
Whoever it was.
And it was the only placethat that was ever used.
And ironically, that little.
Outfit was only, they only sold like somany and then they didn't produce anymore.
And so they were able to solvethe case based on that complete
rabbit trail that we went off on.

(01:19:14):
But to your point, you're exactlyright and it's pretty crazy.
Yeah.
I derailed you.
Oh, that.
No, you're fine.
Um, so we just gotta talk a littlebit about that iconic little miss
license plate, which, you know,we've talked about quite a bit.
Um, we talked about in the firstepisode that that was the nickname
that was bestowed by her grandma.

(01:19:37):
At birth.
And so she had carried thatnickname from July 18th, 1969.
And so this was, uh, as much hername as anything else, you know, and
it was an affectionate term used byher family and she, and embraced it.
And then after she graduated fromBilling Senior High in 1987, she

(01:20:00):
got that personalized license plate.
And it was kind of a symbol ofindependence and her personal
identity as she made this big moveto Colorado for work and everything.
And then, you know, obviously.
Exactly.
Yep.
And then obviously, you know, this platemade the vehicle way more distinctive.

(01:20:20):
I mean, it's, it should be veryeasy to identify this vehicle if
it still has that plate on it.
But there were numerous reports oflittle mis plate across us and Canada.
Most, well, all of 'em werefalse leads for the most part.
There were a few people that had calledin and said that they had seen her
before the speeding ticket or you know,like in Casper just shortly after.

(01:20:44):
There were some that seemed likethey were viable reports, but
the vast majority of them, yes.
Yes.
The vast majority of 'em were false.

Angela (01:20:52):
But Canada not so much.

John (01:20:54):
No.
No possibility.
And at the, but at the timewe didn't know, you know, they
didn't know that like Yeah.
Did the killer.
Was a killer from freaking Calgary.
Did he murder her and thentake her car to Canada?
Yeah, it was possiblebecause the car was gone.
Mm-hmm.
It could have been anywhere, butthat little miss really became.

(01:21:17):
The icon, the icon of the tragedy.
And you know, like I said, I really thinkthat there was a sensationalist aspect
to the media coverage with that play,because Clear is anything in my mind.
I can still see, you know, the littlebox behind the, the news anchors.
I could still see the Montanaplate reading Little Miss.

(01:21:40):
I mean, it was above their head.
Yes, it was.
Everywhere.
And then, um, it has becomeiconic in true crime lore.
It was featured in Unsolved Mysteriesin 1989, and it's symbolized unsolved
cases up until the 2002 resolution.
This, her case really was brought outover and over and over again when talking

(01:22:06):
about these unsolved mysteries, unsolvedmurders for the entire period of time.
And it kind of went awayonce her case became solved.
But before 2002, her case was reallysymbolic nationally for, you know,
unsolved disappearances, unsolvedmurders and that kind of stuff.

(01:22:30):
You know,

Angela (01:22:31):
for reasons I can't figure out.
All of a sudden my brain wondered.
I wonder if Montana would let somebodyget that license plate ever again.

John (01:22:39):
I would hope not.

Angela (01:22:42):
It just, it just makes me wonder if it's flagged as, like,

John (01:22:45):
it very well might be vulnerable because they do have like safeguards
in place, you know, so you can't getnaughty words and stuff like that.
Yeah.
So you

Angela (01:22:55):
have to understand what your words mean.
'cause I have prestigeplace and I to explain them.

John (01:23:00):
Yeah.
And I think that, you know, I've heardstories of people trying to get like hail
Hitler or whatever, bullshit like that.
Yeah.
And they, they absolutely won'tallow that kind of nonsense.
So I would hope that it wouldbe just permanently retired.
Kinda like you do with likefootball players when they Yeah.
Retire.
You retire their number.
I would seriously hope, because wonderI question any son of a bitch that

(01:23:24):
would actually get that license plate.
Like that would be,

Angela (01:23:28):
yeah.
But later on, if somebodywho just didn't know,

John (01:23:31):
right.

Angela (01:23:31):
I mean, there's, there's a small part of.

John (01:23:34):
As iconic.
As iconic as that plate is.
I would suspect that theyprobably have it flagged now.
You know, other cases where there's apersonalized license plate, probably not.
Yeah.
But you know, I think, yeah, I would,my guess is, but I don't really know.

Angela (01:23:53):
I don't know why it just came to me and I wondered out loud.

John (01:23:56):
Sure.
No, that's what, that'swhat this show's all about.
I

Angela (01:23:59):
do, I wonder out loud because John looks at me like I,

John (01:24:02):
um, and so then we got off.
Obviously we've gotta talk aboutthe family's immediate response
and then their lasting pain.
So, Sheila Kimmel has publicly describedthe lasting trauma of losing her daughter.
And keep in mind, yeah, this poor familylost their son at like age three, Lisa's
brother, and now they've lost Lisa.

(01:24:23):
Now a tragic accident.
While it's never easy to lose a child,a tragic accident, I would think has got
to be easier to take than a brutal murder

Angela (01:24:38):
if even just,

John (01:24:40):
well, you don't have the constant, what does she go through
for those seven days or whateverthat she was held captive, you know?
Um, but Sheila would say, quote, you don'tbury somebody and just be done with it.
Life never goes away.

(01:25:02):
And then when returning to the site ofher daughter's murder on what would've
been Lisa's 36th birthday, Sheila relatedquote, what did my daughter go through
for six days that she was held here?
I just can't imagine it.
Horrors just a horror story.

(01:25:25):
No.
Um, the family's pain is stretched acrossdecades, as Sheila stated during a sensing
hearing, our pain has spanned the minutes,the hours, the days, the weeks end quote.
Um, and her other daughter, Sherry Ard,echoed the family, Shang the family's

(01:25:47):
anguish, saying quote, the originalsentence should have been upheld.
End quote, and as we'll get to talkingabout all this in later episodes,
but piece of shit was sentenced todeath and then he didn't get it.
So, um, Sheila has advocated forjustice and highlighted the importance

(01:26:08):
of not letting the system forgetvictims saying to be revictimized
by the state after all this.
And she said that during the recentresentencing hearing for piece of shit
expressing frustration, that Eaton, um,expressing frustration that seeing Eaton
by video rather than in person diminishedher last chance at confrontation.

(01:26:32):
Enclosure, the Kimmel's took a rarestep in their fight for justice by
successfully suing Dale Wayne Eatonand obtaining his property symbolically
burning down the site of Lisa'scaptivity to quote, be done with it.
No more, never again.
Amen.
You know, th this episode'sbackstory details how Sheila

(01:26:55):
tried to keep Lisa safe.
Prosing, you know, she went over map,she discussed the route with her.
I mean, she did everything a mom could do,and I don't think she did anything wrong,
and I don't think Lisa did anything wrong.
You know, I don't believe thatLisa picked him up hitchhiking.
Like I said, I think she stopped at a restarea, which is what they're there for, and

(01:27:20):
you should be able to safely use a restarea without having to worry about a piece
of shit kidnapping and murdering you.
So, you know, Sheila Kimmel and herfamily's voices have been central to the
emotional and public legacy of the LisaMarie Kimmel case, offering powerful
testimony about the lifelong toll thatviolent crime has on a family, and

(01:27:45):
the urgent need for both justice andreforms to support victims' families.
And, you know, I'm a huge advocatefor this, and it's something that
I'll say today, and I'll say itover and over and over again, and
that is, I love our justice system.
I really do.

(01:28:06):
I love that.
Um, you're presumed innocentuntil you're found guilty.
I love that you're, you're.
Judged by a jury of your peers.
I love that the system is really setup to, if there's even the remotest of
chance, and I, I realize it's not perfectand I realize it happens, but even if

(01:28:27):
there's the remotest of chance that aninnocent person would be found guilty,
we would rather let the guilty free than,you know, punish an innocent person.
And I love the way ourjustice system is set up.
I really believe in it andI really believe that it is.
Probably the best systemthat could be devised by man.

(01:28:49):
I really do.
Where I run into a huge problemis what happens after conviction,
and I think that's one space wherewe need a hell of a lot of work
because what we do is revictimizefamilies over and over and over.
We find the piece of shit guilty.

(01:29:10):
We've proved beyond a reasonable doubtthat he did it, she did it, whatever.
And then the appeals start andthen the family has to go back
and the family has to go back.
And then the parole el eligibilitystarts and the family has
to show up at parole here.
This literally dance

Angela (01:29:32):
and create and cry and plead.
And yeah,

John (01:29:35):
this dams the family to a lifetime of revictimization
over and over and over again.
And I think we've got to come in.
My opinion is that we've gotta come toa place in this country where 30 years
in prison means 30 years in prison Life.
In prison means that your assdies behind those stone walls and

(01:29:59):
the death penalty means you die.
I And I'm s No good behavior.
Bullshit.
No, you don't lessen a life sentence.
By good behavior.
If you're sentenced tolife, you die there.
That's what life in prison means, andif we can't stomach life in prison as a
society, then we shouldn't dole it out.

(01:30:19):
But it's insane to me that youcan be sentenced to life in prison
and then walk after 25 years.
I think it's absurd.
I think it's wrong, and I thinkthat it prioritizes the perpetrator
over the victim's families.
And so there's that and or thevictim if they're still alive.
Exactly.

(01:30:40):
I was 11.
Just a kid old enough to understandwords like missing and murdered, but
too young to know what to do with them.
Lisa wasn't a stranger on tv.
She looked like the girlsin my sister's class.
She was damn near in my sister's class.

(01:31:02):
Graduated a year earlier.
She could have been in our drivewaywaving goodbye on that Friday
afternoon when Lisa's story broke,it broke something in me too.
I remember the photos, the pressconferences, the way adults whispered
when they thought we couldn'thear, but we heard and we saw.

(01:31:25):
And for the first time, I knewwhat fear looked like when it lived
inside of people that you loved.
It was.
In the way my mom double checkedthe locks, the way my dad got quiet.
When the news came on the way, everygirl in town suddenly had to call.
The second they got where they were going.

(01:31:46):
This wasn't a far away crime.
It was ours.
It belonged to us because Lisa was us.
The media couldn't stop talkingabout it, and neither could we.
But behind the noise was somethingdarker, a realization that the world

(01:32:09):
wasn't as safe as we thought it was.
Not even here, not evenfor someone like Lisa.
You know, the, we gotta talk a littlebit about the media coverage of this
case, because it absolutely exploded.
So, and that began March 26thafter her boyfriend, ed Roche, and

(01:32:32):
the family reported her missing.
So the Billings Gazette in Montana, theCasper Star Tribune in Wyoming published
the first reports and described Lisaas an 18-year-old from Billings driving
to Cody, and then home to Billings,highlighted distinctive little miss
license plates on the black Honda, CRX.

(01:32:53):
Um, she was described as beingfive foot three, 110 pounds, brown
hair, brown eyes, last sightingat the Douglas speeding ticket.
Planned Easter visit in Billings, andthey appealed for any information,
especially along that I 25 route.
And then on into Cody, um, her parents,Ron and Sheila were interviewed.

(01:33:18):
They distributed flyers.
The media was used to solicit publictips on the vehicle or on Lisa.
And the scope was, was this area,Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, radio
and TV bulletins in Denver and Casperand in Billings focused on a possible
accident, maybe, or a breakdown initially.

(01:33:40):
And then April 2nd, after her body wasfound, the immediate report where the
Casper Star Tribune, which headlinedthe discovery and described a fisherman
spotting a partially nude body,quickly identified as the missing.
Lisa Kimmel.
Um, and then there was the sensationalelements that were revealed, the brutal

(01:34:02):
details from the autopsy, the beating,the stabbing, the sexual assault, and
like I've said over and over, this wasdub the little miss murder, linking it
to the plate and the photos of the car.
And photos of the car andLisa were all over the place.
And then the National Wire Wire Servicepicked it up, the AP UPI, and it appeared

(01:34:28):
in major papers like the New YorkTimes, briefly, TV News in the Rocky
Mountain region covered it extensively.
The family were interviewedall over the place.
The Statements of Grief coronerJames Thorpe on the injuries,
law enforcement on the.
And the investigative challenges,no car being found, the

(01:34:50):
conflicting witness reports.
And then, like I said, unsolvedMysteries aired an episode like
the next year on March 1st, 1989.
That was season one, episode 17,which detailed the disappearance, the
finding of the body, the crime scene,the reenactment of the drive and the

(01:35:11):
abduction, and then showed compositesof suspects from different sightings.
So her story was viewed by millions,and it generated hundreds of tips
nationwide, highlighted the unsolvedstatus and the captive theory.
And then in other national media, it wasfeatured in True Crime magazines with

(01:35:33):
occasional updates on anniversaries.
The FBI involvement wasnoted in the reports.
And then the case has been profiledin books, documentaries, Sheila, her
mom's 2005 book called The Murder ofLittle Miss, which reignited interest.
And you know, it really detailedthe family's perspective.

Angela (01:35:54):
I should know the answer to this, but you've read it, didn't you?

John (01:35:56):
Yes.
Yeah.
Um, I, I listened to it on Audible,but, um, so, you know, the little Miss
Murder quote unquote, was coined bythe media after her discovery, and it
obviously ties to that license plate.
And it was used, like I said, in headlinesall over the freaking place and on the tv.

(01:36:23):
And then.
The Little Miss Killer was what wasdubbed for her unknown killer for years.
You know, and, you know, uh, in, in likeall of these, all of the media frenzy
focused on, you know, the graphic details,the sensational aspects of the crime, but

(01:36:45):
reporters swarmed Casper and Billings.
There were press conferences by thenew county Sheriff's Office, debates on
highway safety for young women, and then.
You know, because this case remainedunsolved from 1988 to 2002, we
had all of the annual updates,which, you know, every anniversary

(01:37:08):
this happens with solved cases.
But with unsolved cases, it's really morepoignant and a lot more common where you
have annual updates in local papers, coldcase features, like the 10th anniversary
specials, which revisit the evidence.
Um, and then we'll be talking aboutthe breakthroughs and everything

(01:37:28):
that would be coming, but.
You know, the public during this periodof time in Wyoming and in Montana, women
fear driving alone on rural highways likeI 25 and like Highway 26, and we had all
kinds of, you know, the people, women andgirls were taking self-defense classes

(01:37:51):
and getting into karate classes and stuff.
During this period of time, Casper Revresidents avoided the old government
bridge area, rumors of a local killerheightened that paranoia, parents
restricted their teens traveling.
And then across the Rocky Mountainsawareness of abduction risks media

(01:38:11):
amplified with stranger danger narratives.
This is during that whole period of time.
And like I've said, multipletimes throughout this, there
were over 300 sightings reported.
The car with the plate wasseen in distant locations.
Almost all of those were false, butit indicated public vigilance and
fear induced mis identifications.

(01:38:33):
And then the family describedconstant dread, public sym sympathy,
mixed with morbid curiosity andthe unsolved mysteries episode.
Scared viewers.
I can attest to that ahundred percent right?
Um, but it did prompt safety discussions.
And then, you know, during this period oftime, the Wyoming Highway Patrol increased

(01:38:56):
their patrols on these roads, on theseinterstates, on these, in these stretches.
And there was an advocacy for betterlighting, emergency phones, um, which
is pretty unreasonable across a lotof this, you know, but, you know,
people were trying to get somethingto happen to make this safer.

(01:39:18):
And it really did symbolize thevulnerability of young women travelers
and inspired cautionary tales thatare probably still told to this day.
You know?
And then her mom's book really emphasizedthe resilience amid all of the fear.
And then, um, there was obviouslya heightened awareness, which

(01:39:40):
then led to the DNA database.
I mean, Lisa's case, it.
It's not you.
I mean, you can't saythat because of her case.
We have DNA databases and stuff,but it was one of the cases that
contributed to a lot of these changesbecause there were multiple cases
like Lisa's and this stepping stones.

(01:40:00):
Yes.
And this idea that, okay, nowwe have this technology and.
If we can get DNA from Shitheads.
Mm-hmm.
Scumbags that we know arescumbags, we could maybe see
if they had done shit before.
And Lisa's is one of the earliest caseswhere that was used successfully, which

(01:40:23):
we'll be talking about in later episodes.
So do you have anything to.
Or questions or anything beforewe close out this episode?

Angela (01:40:33):
I always jump in when that

John (01:40:34):
You do.
Yep.

Angela (01:40:37):
It didn't really just hold onto the

John (01:40:38):
ways.
Well, that's good.
That's the way it should be.
So,
when Lisa's body was pulled from theNorth Platte, a question changed.
No longer where is she?
But what was done to herand more hauntingly by whom?

(01:41:01):
The discovery confirmed the worstfears of everyone who knew her.
She hadn't run.
She hadn't disappeared.
She had been taken, held,assaulted, killed her body.
Told part of the story.
The autopsy revealed more.
But even in death, Lisa wasn't allowed.

(01:41:23):
Dignity.
Her car was still gone.
Her clothes.
Gone.
Her final days still a blank space no onecould fill, and yet one thing remained.
Her name, her plate.
Little miss those seven letters onceplayful, personal, became a symbol of

(01:41:47):
defiance because they were unforgettable.
And one day they would come backto haunt the man who tried to erase
her in the days following her.
Discovery, fear settledlike fog across Wyoming.
Not the panic of headlines,but the quiet, paralyzing kind.

(01:42:07):
Keeps doors locked and curfews early.
Everyone felt it, especially the girls,because Lisa hadn't done anything wrong.
She was just driving home.
There were no arrests,no suspects, no justice.
Not yet.
Next time we'll follow the trail ofLisa's missing car, the years that

(01:42:31):
it's spent off the radar, and how asingle match long after the trail had
gone cold changed everything becausekillers leave traces even when the
science takes years to catch up.

(01:42:55):
She had a laugh that lingered oneof those rare sounds that made you
pause even in another room because itwasn't just joy, it was full of life.
Lisa Marie Kimmel didn't enter aspace quietly, not because she was
loud, but because she was present.
She looked you in the eye.

(01:43:15):
She listened.
She remembered her coworkersat Arby's, talked about how
she moved through a shift.
Like it mattered, like eventhe small stuff deserved care.
And her friends, they still rememberthe way that she made everyone feel like
they belonged, like they were enough.
She was the kind of daughter whocalled, not out of obligation, but

(01:43:39):
out of love, that kind of personwho brought people together without
realizing that she was doing it.
Lisa had dreams.
She wanted life independence, a lifethat fit the size of her spirit.
She didn't want fame, she justwanted to build, and what was taken

(01:44:00):
from her wasn't just a future.
It was the ripple effect.
All of the lives that she would'vetouched, the people that she
would've helped, the quiet good thatshe would've done in this world.
We remember Lisa, not for theway that she died, but for the
way that she showed up in life.
Bright, kind, present, and unforgettable.

(01:45:15):
Lisa's discovery gave her familyanswers, but it didn't give them
peace because knowing what happenedisn't the same as knowing who did it

Angela (01:45:27):
to the idiots, limited forensics, and no witnesses.
The case began to cool, butLisa's story didn't fade.
It echoed.
In the headlines, in the silence,in the fear that spread from
one small town to the next.

John (01:45:42):
Next time, we'll follow the next chapter in this case,
how one missing piece of evidencefinally surfaced and how a Killer's
arrogance would start to unravel.

Angela (01:45:54):
If Lisa's stories moved you, please keep it alive.
Help us keep it alive, like follow.
Give us a thumbs up and share this episodewith someone you trust it makes more
of a difference than you might realize.

John (01:46:08):
You can also support our investigations directly by joining us on
Patreon or give a one-time gif@coffee.com.
Your support funds, open records,requests, travel, research,
everything that it takes totell these stories, right?

Angela (01:46:25):
Subscribe to our SUBSTACK for transcripts, case files,
and behind the scenes work.

John (01:46:30):
And if you wanna be part of the community, we're on Discord.
It's where the conversations continuethoughtfully, respectfully, and
always with the victim at the center.
We also have the Adoptive Victim Programand the Dark Dialogue Collective.

Angela (01:46:46):
So always you can reach us at any time at info@darkironlove.com.
We read everything andwe answer when we can.

John (01:46:54):
This has been Dark Dialogue.
Rocky Mountain Reckoning.
I'm John and I. We'll see you nexttime when a car resurfaces and the
story sharpens and tell then makethe guilty face the reckoning.

All Episodes

Lisa Marie Kimmell Part 2: What the River Gave Back – The Discovery of Lisa

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Lisa Marie Kimmell Part 2: What the River Gave Back – The Discovery of Lisa