Lisa Marie Kimmell Part 3: A Cold Silence

Silence can be louder than any answer.

In this episode of Rocky Mountain Reckoning: Dark Dialogue, John and Angela revisit the long, painful years after the 1988 murder of Lisa Marie Kimmell—the bright 18-year-old whose life was stolen along a Wyoming highway. For more than a decade, her family lived with grief and questions while investigators faced false leads, dead ends, and mounting frustration.

You’ll hear about:

• The dead-end years (1988–2002): false confessions, cult rumors, and missed opportunities that let Lisa’s killer walk free.

• The Stringfellow Hawke letter: a cryptic note left on Lisa’s grave that haunted her family for years—later tied directly to the man who murdered her.

• The emotional toll: how birthdays, holidays, and long nights of waiting wore on Lisa’s parents, sisters, and community.

• The broader pattern: a chilling reminder that Lisa was not the only woman to vanish across the highways and plains of the American West.

This is the story of frustration, silence, and resilience—the fight of a family who refused to let Lisa be forgotten, even when the system faltered.

If Lisa’s story moves you, don’t let it fade into silence. 👉 Follow and subscribe to Dark Dialogue on your favorite podcast platform. 👉 Leave us a rating or review—it helps keep these victims’ names alive. 👉 Share this episode with someone who cares about justice. 👉 Join our community for bonus content and case files at darkdialoguecrime.substack.com. 👉 Support our investigative work directly at patreon.com/DarkDialoguepod or ko-fi.com/darkdialogue.

Every listen, every share, and every show of support helps us keep the dialogue alive—and ensures that stories like Lisa’s are never forgotten.

Episode Transcript

John (00:33):
There's a kind of silence that doesn't feel empty.
It feels intentional, like someone pressedpause, not because they lost interest,
but because they were waiting for yearsafter Lisa Marie Kimmel's body was found.
That's exactly whatinvestigators were left with.
Silence.

(00:54):
No car, no suspect, no arrest.
Just dead ends cold trails andquestions that echoed louder
than any answer they got.
This episode.
We're stepping into that silence.
The years that followed Lisa's murderweren't quiet for lack of effort.

(01:15):
They were loud with frustration, withgrief, with leads that collapsed,
tips that went nowhere, and familiesthat kept calling long after
the world had stopped listening.
We'll hear from Lisa's relatives how theylived with not knowing how birthdays,
holidays, even everyday routines,became reminders of what was stolen.

(01:39):
We'll also speak with law enforcement,some who were there from the beginning,
some who picked up the cold files laterin later years, and will talk about the
broader truth that was harder to swallow.
Lisa wasn't alone.
Throughout the late eighties and earlynineties, women kept disappearing
across Wyoming, Colorado, and Montana.

(02:02):
Not all of them were found.
Not all of them were connected,but some were close enough
to keep people up at night.
And then came the letter, astrange cryptic message signed only
with the name Stringfellow Hawk.
It wasn't evidence, it wasn't aconfession, but it was something.

(02:25):
And then the silence that followedLisa's death, anything felt like a lead.
That is the stretch of time wheregrief hardened into resolve,
where families stopped asking foranswers and started demanding them.
Hey, Angela, how's it going?

Angela (02:45):
It's going well.
How are you?

John (02:46):
I'm great.
Yeah, I'm, I'm doing really good.
I mean, trying to maintain somesemblance of, yeah, a schedule that
makes sense, but eh, it is what it is.
So we ready to jump into this,to this part of Lisa's story?
Let's talk about thispart of Lisa's story.
How about that?
Perfect.

(03:07):
You know what's worse than losing someone?
Suddenly it's losing them slowly.
One unanswered call at a time,one failed lead after another,
and knowing that somewhere outthere someone is walking free.

Angela (03:25):
The years after Lisa's murder were brutal.
Not just because of whathappened to her, but because of
what didn't happen afterwards.
No arrest, no trial, no answers.

John (03:37):
Her case went cold.
And in that silence, fear took root,not just in Cody, not just in Denver,
but across this entire region.

Angela (03:48):
Because women were disappearing from highways, from small towns, from
places just like where Lisa was last seen.

John (03:56):
This is Dark Dialogue.
Rocky Mountain Reckoning, the serieswhere we returned to the crimes rooted
deep in the dirt and snow of the AmericanWest, the ones that never left the hearts
of the people who live through them.

Angela (04:09):
We investigate the stories buried under snowfall, prairie dust,
and decades of unanswered questions.
The ones whispered through cattlefences, past broken barbed wire,
and across wind lashed highways.

John (04:22):
Disappearance isn't always about getting lost.
Sometimes someone is waiting.

Angela (04:28):
I'm Angela

John (04:29):
and I'm John.

Angela (04:31):
And in this episode, we walk through the years after Lisa's body
was found, the stalled investigations,the strain on her family, and the
strange letter that reopened old wounds.

John (04:41):
This is a cold silence.

Angela (04:43):
And this is Dark Dialogue.
Rocky Mountain Reckoning.

John (04:58):
A cold case doesn't freeze overnight.
It slows one call at a time, one bileat a time, until what was once urgent
becomes just another folder on the shelf.
That's what happened with Lisa'scase after the autopsy, after

(05:18):
the press, after the river gaveher back, nothing gave her back.
Justice leads came in a possible sightingin Utah, a man arrested in Montana,
a tip about a black CRX in Colorado.
All of them dead ends.
There were stumbles too.
Information that wasn'tshared between agencies.

(05:40):
Names that were dismissed too early.
A vehicle description that never quitereached the right disc at the right time.
And each year thatpassed without movement.
It hurt not just Lisa's family, butthe officers who still carried her
case like a weight in their pockets.
Lisa had been found, but her killer,he was still out there and the trail

(06:07):
was going colder by the season.
All right, so we're talking about thisperiod of time between 1988 and 2002.
So beyond when Lisa was, was kidnapped,held, murdered, her body found, and then.

(06:29):
Years later in 2002 when we finallyget some breaks in this case.
So talking about the investigativeefforts early on in 1988, police launched
a nationwide hunt for Lisa's distinctblack Honda CRX, with the little miss
license plates right, despite hundredsof reported sightings, some as far away

(06:51):
as Canada, the car was never located.
Lisa's father personally rented aplane to search Wyoming highways.
Wow.
Nothing was found.
Eyewitness accounts conflicted sightingsplaced Lisa alive after investigators
believed that she was already dead.
So March 26th, the sheriff's wifein Buffalo, Wyoming saw blonde in

(07:15):
a pink sweater driving Lisa's car.
March 27th, a woman in Caspersaw the car again, but the
driver now wore a yellow sweater.
Then again, on March 27th, aBuffalo gas station attendant saw
a blonde with a man in Lisa's car.

Angela (07:33):
What color sweater?

John (07:35):
That one.
We don't know the sweater, butthese reports were definitely
felt a theme there for a minute.
Yeah, there seemed to be a thing.
So Lisa's family didn't recall her owninga pink or a yellow sweater, and she
had last been seen in black and white.
When stopped for speeding,investigators were unable to reconcile.

(07:57):
Why Lisa, if she was stillalive, didn't ask for help.
And by the late 1980s,investigators lost faith in pretty
much all eyewitness reports.
And then on in October of 1988, a strangenote signed, Stringfellow Hawk was

(08:17):
found on her gravestone and authoritiescouldn't link it to any suspect.

Angela (08:22):
Yeah, that's

John (08:23):
weird.
So in March of 1989, unsolvedMysteries aired a segment on the
case generating thousands of calls,but tips about lookalike cars and
rumors led nowhere overwhelming thesmall Nitro County Sheriff's Office.
So, but in talking about this weird assnote, so a few months after Lisa Marie

(08:49):
Kimmel was buried, a mysterious notewas found taped to her gravestone, and
that was found on October 13th, 1988.
The discovery was made by a family friendwho was visiting her grave, saw the
note, and quickly alerted Lisa's fatherRon, who then went and recovered it.

(09:09):
The letter was sealed in an envelope andit was signed Stringfellow Hawk, which.
Was a reference to the 1980s TV show,Airwolf, which, do you remember that show?

Angela (09:22):
No.

John (09:22):
I was a huge fan.
Airwolf was like this reallyfreaking badass helicopter.
Um, and the main character ofAirwolf actually died, I think.
I can't remember how he died.
I don't remember if it was suicide orif it was like an accidental hanging.
I almost think that it kindof was an accidental thing,
but I just don't remember.
But it was a huge show for alittle while in the eighties.

Angela (09:46):
Well, remember as we discussed, I spent most of my
time watching MASH with my dad.

John (09:50):
This is true.
Yep.
Yep.

Angela (09:52):
Ask me about Mash.
I can answer all of the,

John (09:55):
so the, the letter reads as follows, Lisa, there aren't words to say how
much you're, how much you're missed.
The pain never leaps.
It's so hard.
Without you, you'll always be alive in me.
Your death is my painfulloss, but heaven's sweet.

(10:19):
Gain, gain love always.
Stringfellow Hawk.
So the author's use of the unusual TVcharacter name and the lack of context
led authorities and the Kimmel family toview the note as both creepy and baffling.
I agree.
Neither Lisa's family norfriends recognized the

(10:42):
handwriting or the signature.
It's

Angela (10:44):
not the boyfriend.

John (10:45):
It absolutely was not the boyfriend.

Angela (10:47):
Okay.

John (10:49):
We know who it was at this point.
We know that it was Dale.
Wait, Eaton.

Angela (10:54):
Oh shit, I forgot.

John (10:55):
Yeah.
But at this, at this period oftime in 1988, we have no clue.
So at the time, authorities couldnot determine who left the note or
whether it was connected to her killer.
The note became a a point of speculationin the unsolved case, and they
discussed it on Unsolved mysteries.
Mm-hmm.

(11:16):
Like I said, later we would learn.
So after Del Wayne Eaton was identifiedas Lisa's murderer, a handwriting expert
matched his handwriting to the note.
Okay.
And the reason that Eaton usedthe Stringfellow Hawk alias
remains an absolute mystery.
We have no clue.

(11:36):
Some true crime writers have speculatedthat Eaton identified with the
character's reclusive qualities, butthere's no confirmed explanation and
this piece of shit is never said.
So we don't know.
The note is retrospectively seen as anindicator of Eaton's psychological state
and possible desire to revisit the crimeor to taunt investigators and the family.

Angela (12:01):
Is he acknowledged that he wrote it?

John (12:03):
No.
Okay.
This piece of shit doesn'tacknowledge, acknowledge anything.
Got it.
But the cryptic letter represented oneof the most chilling and matic elements
of the Kimmel case for many years beforeDale Wayne Eaton would be identified.
Okay.
I, I think that as weird and creepyand nasty and gross and whatever you

(12:25):
want to say this is, I think thatin kidnapping her and holding her
hostage, Heath formed some weird

Angela (12:35):
mm-hmm.

John (12:36):
Attachment to her that he didn't have to other victims.
This is not unusual.
It has happened with other killersand other cases where one victim.
Just becomes more important or whateveryou wanna say, than the others.

Angela (12:51):
Yeah.

John (12:52):
Um, but I think that that's what happened here.
The, the weird part is, and you know,as I've said a million times, and
I'll probably say a million more, theinsane can never understand the saying.

Angela (13:06):
Yeah.

John (13:06):
But it's just so bizarre.
You mean that backwards?
The saying can never understand theinsane, is that not what I said?
No.
Used to say insane.
Yeah.
Said it backwards.
Yeah.
Well, it's probably both,either way, honestly.
It's probably both ways.

Angela (13:18):
Yeah.

John (13:20):
You know, you would think like, oh, you know, I've kidnapped this woman
and she's so much more beautiful orspecial or amazing than any of the rest.
Maybe I won't kill her.

Angela (13:32):
Mm-hmm.

John (13:32):
But it never works that way.
Yeah.
It's so freaking strange

Angela (13:36):
because they want, they think, oh, maybe she'll love me, and then
she doesn't and so she must die.

John (13:41):
Yeah.
But then to be like.
Um, you don't wait, like in the, inthe letter, um, he writes, there aren't
words to say how much you're missed.
Well, she's missingbecause you killed her.
You had a dumb son of a bitch.
Exactly.
And the pain never leaves again.

(14:04):
You created the pain dip shit.
It's so hard.
Yeah.
Without you, okay.
Again, you you killed her.
You dumb son of a bitch.
Yeah.
And you'll always be with me.

Angela (14:16):
There's another, there's another personality in there.
It's Jekyll and Hyde,

John (14:20):
I guess, but although

Angela (14:21):
probably hide and hide Exactly.
Saying I don't think there's a lot

John (14:24):
of Jekyll.

Angela (14:25):
It's probably hide and, and hide.
But

John (14:28):
your death is my painful loss.
But heaven's sweet gang again, you didthis, you, you freaking psychopath.
Yes.
And yeah, obviously he is,but it's just so creepy.
Gross and weird and bizarre andunexplainable that I, I don't know.

(14:48):
Yeah.
So, um, that, that letter showed up reallysoon, actually after her, you know, the
discovery of her body and everything,which, if you remember, was in March
and then, you know, she was buried.
And then by October they'refinding this letter.
So it's not that longafter, and it's just.

(15:09):
Just another sick and twisted weirdangle of not only are you writing
this cryptic, creepy ass weirdnote, but then you're also still
like torturing her family with it.
Yeah.
Just a sadism taken to the next level.

Angela (15:25):
It is definitely control.

John (15:27):
Yeah.
And it's just creepy and weird.
But, so after that, in June of1989, federal agent Don Flick
Flickinger joined to assiststaying on the case for six years.
He chased lead after lead,including unreasonable or

(15:48):
unreliable, jailhouse informants,cult rumors, and false tipster.
And he played a central tireless rolein this long running investigation
into Lisa's murder, serving asthe lead investigator from 1989
through his retirement in 1995.
And this part.

(16:08):
Is strange as shit to me.
But he was an agent with the Bureauof Alcohol, tobacco and Firearms.
Not to be confused with Brigade GeneralDon d Flickinger associated with
Aviation and space medicine, which

Angela (16:25):
Oh yes.

John (16:27):
Which, when you start researching these people and you come across,
I, you know, it's just like really?
And then you gotta dig deeper andthen you're like, okay, so they're
two completely, who is hell goneflicking nurse and you, you know,
the fact that he was an A TFagent is curious as shit to me.

Angela (16:46):
Yeah.

John (16:47):
I researched it and researched it and it just seemed like he was
the most capable investigator,federal investigator in this area.
So for whatever reasonhe was put on the case.
This strikes me as odd, evenfor 1988, it didn't happen that,
that I know of all that much.

(17:09):
Typically something like this wouldbe handled by the FBI, not the A TF.
Yeah, there is not an a TFangle at all to this case.
You know, they predominantly deal withalcohol, tobacco, and firearms, and now
explosives because that's been added.
But at this point, I don'tknow, but it happened.

(17:31):
So, um, and he joined the case in Juneof, of 89 after Lisa's parents expressed.
A lot of frustration with thelocal investigation, slow progress.
And then he stayed onthe case for six years.
So he conducted the first major suspectinterview in July of 1989, traveling

(17:55):
to Oregon to meet a gel inmate whoclaimed to have insider knowledge.
And, you know, we'll talk about thatas as we kinda work through this.
But he was noted for personally trackingdown suspects across state lines,
including going to Alaska and to Texas.
And questioning a wide array ofindividuals from jailhouse informants

(18:18):
to purported cult members, suspectsidentified by Polygraphy, out-of-state car
owners and even law enforcement officers.
So flickinger.
Doghead approach was recognized.
Other investigators dubbed him as quote,the vampire because of his practice
of collecting large numbers of bloodsamples from suspects of interest.

(18:42):
And that's so huge because this is thetime before DNA really became a thing.
But this guy had the foresight to belike, I'm taking your blood bitch.
So

Angela (18:55):
I'm sure that's how it went down.

John (18:56):
I think it probably was.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Has to be.
So he worked closely with NauraCounty Sheriff's Office, notably with
Investigator Dan Folson, and togetherthey formed a cooperative front.
Despite inter-agency politicsbetween local and federal leadership,
he investigated every plausiblelead and rumor, including those

(19:18):
stemming from psychic visionsand unsolved mysteries TV leads.
But none would provide a breakthrough.
So Flickinger Flickinger wasdescribed by Lisa's mom as passionate
about this case and tenacious.
He would never give up.
She said his persistence waswidely acknowledged, although he

(19:41):
was ultimately unable to solvethe case before he retired.
Um, and he basically, he hit themandatory retirement age is what happened.
It's not like he decided to retire.
He had no choice.

Angela (19:55):
Kind of was asked to, you know?

John (19:57):
Yeah.
Well, you know, Mo, most lawenforcement agencies have an age
where you cannot carry a gun andbe involved beyond this age period.
Once you hit that, you're out.
And that's what happened with him.
So, and he expressed deep disappointmentfor not being able to deliver
answers to the Kimmel family, but heremained confident that DNA evidence

(20:19):
would eventually solve this case.
Mm-hmm.
And true to his expectations,DNA advancements finally closed
the case after his retirement.
So I couldn't find a lot ofinformation about his personal
background, such as when he wasborn or much about his family life.
Um, as his public notoriety is primarilylinked to his work on Lisa's case.

(20:44):
But his role in the Lisa Kimmelinvestigation is remembered for
his relentless pursuit of leadsand willingness to crisscross the
country in, in the search for answers,even though the case would only
break with new forensic technologyyears after his formal involvement.
Like I said, he was an A TF agent andhe participated in the investigation

(21:08):
rather than FBI agents, primarily dueto local law enforcement's request
and pre-existing relationships.
So after the murder investigationstalled, the Kimmel family saw additional
resources and expertise to help the TROCounty Sheriff's Office and him as an
A TF agent based in Billings, Montanawas officially assigned to provide

(21:33):
assistance as a federal investigator,and the case was not automatically an
FBI case because it didn't fit with, withthe typical criteria for jurisdiction.
There was no kidnapping across statelines with ransom acts of terrorism.
You know, a lot of thatstuff automatically becomes

(21:53):
federal jurisdiction, right?
But this didn't have that so.
Instead the F. The A TFhad available personnel.
They were familiar with the region andhe was able to offer his investigative
skills and support the local sheriff'soffice filling that role that the
state or local authorities mightusually fill if they had more manpower.

(22:16):
So the FBI still consulted withFlickinger, especially in areas where
ritual or occult aspects were speculated.
They gave advice regarding the pentagramshaped wounds, which we'll be talking
about, but they did not take over theprimary federal investigative role.

(22:39):
So a couple of notableinvestigative angles.
Um, I already mentioned this previously,but there was an inmate in an Oregon
County jail serving time for a pettycrime who reached out to Lisa Kimmel's
parents in Billings, and claimed thathe had information about her murder.
His motive was to securea deal for himself.

(23:00):
Yeah.
Which tells me that this guy isan absolute piece of shit who I
hope is still in prison and diedthere or is going to die there.
Because if you would reach out tothe family of a murder victim just
to see what you can out of it,you're an absolute piece of shit.
So, but when he did that, um, DonFlickinger and the Natrona County

(23:22):
investigator Dan Olson, they were ona plane and they went to Portland.
And in July of 89, um, itbecame Flickinger first
official interview on the case.
And they spoke directly with the inmate,but quickly determined that he had
absolutely no knowledge of the murder.
The conversation lastedonly about 20 minutes.

(23:45):
What a waste.
Yeah.
And then they were like, okay, thispiece of shit doesn't know anything.
I'm tired of wasting my time.
Let's get back on the plane and go backto Wyoming because if it only takes 20
minutes, he really didn't know Yeah.
About shit.
You know?
And like I said, the evilness ofinvolving of a victim's family in

(24:08):
your plot to get a couple yearsoff your sentence or whatever.

Angela (24:13):
Especially when you know nothing.

John (24:15):
Yeah.
He's just a piece of shit.
It's disgusting.
But that, that incident does exemplifya common challenge in a lot of high
profile criminal investigations.
Yeah, it happens a lot.
You know, where inmates or informantswill occasionally attempt to inject
themselves into the case for personalgain rather than to provide any

(24:37):
genuine, genuine help or anything.
They just want to see whatthey can get out of it.
And it happens, like yousay, all the freaking time.
Mm-hmm.
And then the next theory isthe quote unquote cult theory.
So the FBI focused on the Pena grandshaped wounds, about 20 alleged

(24:58):
cults in Casper were interviewed.
Nothing whatsoever implicatedon rumors spread falsely that
Lisa's heart had been removed.
I do specifically rememberhearing that as a kid.
I bet that was fun to hear as a kid.
Yeah.
And like the whole occult.
But this was during theSatanic panic where Yeah, most

(25:19):
murders were Satanic murders.

Angela (25:21):
Yeah.

John (25:21):
I remember that shit all too freaking well, the backward
masking of rock music and Yeah.
You know, and Dee Snider is beforethe freaking Congress testifying about
the satanic nature of Twisted Sister.
Yeah.
Uh, all of that shit's goingon right about this same time.
So.
The cult theory in Lisa's case emergeddue to the unusual pattern of the knife

(25:45):
wounds that were found on her chest,specifically five arranged in a pentagram
shape with a sixth below the sternum.
This LED FBI agents experiencedin ritualistic crime or claiming
to be experienced because there's,let's face it, there's really
not a lot of ritualistic crime.

(26:05):
There was a lot of crime that wasclaimed to be ritualistic that now
we know was just bullshit and partof the whole satanic panic thing.
But, uh, but yeah, they were experts so.
Shortly after, um, I love your air quote.
Shortly after Flickinger joined the casefull time, he met with two FBI agents

(26:31):
in Billings who reinforced this culttheory based on the wound patterns.
And the agents warned him that quote, theunusual knife rooms five in a pentagram
pattern and a sixth under the sternumindicate a possible occult connection.
And you know, now looking back,we know that none of that's true.

(26:55):
It was absolutely just made up bullshitcoincide of this era, you know?
Yeah.
But they spent, him and Dan Olson within County, spent the next six months
interviewing about 20 self-identifiedcult members in the Casper area.

(27:15):
And some of these individuals reportedlywore robes with symbols similar to
the wound pattern on Lisa's body.
And DE were described as holdingmeetings outside town, near distinctive
rock formations on the Wyoming plains.
And you know, I do remembera lot of this shit going on.
Yeah.
You know, even up here.

(27:36):
Yeah, it the, um, you know, the tunnelthat, uh, Hartman Canal flows through.
Mm-hmm.
You would go over there and therewould be like pentagrams spray painted
on the walls and stuff like that.
I mean, this shit waseverywhere during the eighties.
This is also the era that Ozzieis biting the heads off of bats.
I know.
And just, you know, havingthat occult connection.

(28:00):
I mean, Motley Crewe did it.
They had a pentagram inalmost all of their stuff.
Alice Cooper, Ozzy Osborn.
I mean, it was, it was a way tosell records during this time.
Yeah.
And it was a way to rebel against parents.
And so how many of these were actuallyinvolved in true Occultic activity?

(28:21):
It's really hard to say.

Angela (28:23):
Probably a low.
Percent Spanish.

John (28:25):
Yeah.
How many of these were a bunch ofkids that knew that mom and dad didn't
want 'em doing this kind of stuff?
So they would go out drinkingbeers, dressed up like idiots, and
spray painting pentagrams on shit.
That was a lot more of what was actuallygoing on during this period of time.
So obviously these interviewsproduce no evidence connecting any

(28:48):
cult or cultus to Lisa's death.
None implicated themselves and noforensic or circumstantial evidence
ever pointed to any a cult involvement.
So, but the nature of Lisa's murder ledto rampant rumors in the community, many
centered on the supposed cult angle.

(29:09):
One particularly persistent andcompletely false rumor was that Lisa's
heart had been cut out of her body.
The story spread widely, generatingnumerous tips, but was rejected by both
investigators and by the autopsy report,

Angela (29:28):
it threw back.

John (29:29):
Yeah.
Investigators received frequentcalls about the the cult theory, much
of it based on public speculationand not on any direct evidence.
So after exhaustive investigation,absolutely no credible length was
established between Lisa's murderand any cult or ritualistic root and

(29:52):
lead investigator Dan Volson wouldlater say that despite the rumors in
the wound pattern, the case quote.
Was actually a pretty simple,straightforward case end quote
involving a lone predator, DaleWayne, the piece of shit eaten and
no culture, no wider conspiracy.
So this Ill-founded cult theoryand its accompanying rumors,

(30:16):
diverted considerable time andresources away from evidence-based
leads in the investigations.
Early years.
It was just an absolute waste oftime, which that brings us to the next
lead that would pop up in the case.
And that was a drug dealer namedJack and it matched Lisa's.

(30:37):
He, he supposedly matchedLisa's possession.
So flicking or found policehad leaked this info.
Jack's blood and DNAwould later clear him.
But the drug dealer Jack episode inthe Lisa Marie Kimmel investigation
illustrates both the complexityof the case and the pitfalls of

(30:59):
linked investigative information.
So investigators, including the ATF agent, Don Flickinger and Nitro
County detectives received tipsimplicating a local drug dealer
known as Jack in Lisa's murder.
And this was saying his name like that.
This was partially because Jackwas known to be in the Casper,

(31:23):
Wyoming area when Lisa disappeared.
So when questioned by Flickinger, Jacksaid that he was in Casper to pick
up a stolen snowmobile and describedbeing at a remote cabin when, where he
noticed the suitcase and two stuffedanimals among someone's possessions.

(31:44):
Jack, his description of theseitems matched what Lisa was known
to have with her on the trip.
Details that quickly raised investigator'ssuspicion that Jack might be involved.
But after deeper investigation, flickingher, discovered that the details about
Lisa's belongings had been leaked beyondthe inner circle of law enforcement.

(32:08):
So yeah, this meant the matchingdescription that Jack provided could
have been attained secondhand, notthrough any direct involvement.
Right.
So it soon became clear that rivaldrug dealers likely fingered Jack as
the suspect to harm his reputationor to eliminate him as competition.

(32:30):
Compounding the confusion.
Jack, in turn.
Retaliated by implicating otherdrug dealers, creating this web
of false accusations and wastedinvestigative resources and time.
So despite his plausible sounding story,Jack and several of his associates

(32:51):
underwent multiple interviews, polygraphexaminations, and finally DNA testing.
All were definitively cleared ofinvolvement in Lisa's murder as
none matched the forensic evidencefrom the crime scene so that this
set of leads consume months andconsiderable manpower due to the
initial, initial convincing overlapof facts until it was determined that.

(33:16):
Believes it originated from rumorfrom leaks and criminal rivalries
rather than involvement in the crime.
But the Jack episode exemplifies howexternal, non-official leaks and the
rumor mill can steer even the mostdetermined investigators on costly

(33:37):
detours in a hope in high profile cases.
So no evidence has ever connectedJack or anyone in his circle to Lisa
Marie Kimmel's murder or abduction.
And then we have a LasVegas man with a CRX.
So an unsigned letter pointed tohim, he was, he had admired Lisa and

(34:00):
deliberately bought a car just likehers after meeting her, which is
weird and freaking creepy, by the way.

Angela (34:07):
That is

John (34:07):
creepy.
But VIN checks, the DNA would exclude him.
It was a significant but untimely falselead in this investigation with this
weird ass weirdo in Las Vegas who wentout and bought a black Honda CRX as
similar to leases as possible and haddeveloped what an investigators would

(34:31):
describe as an unusual fixation honor her.
So the Kimmel family received ananonymous, unsigned letter from
Las Vegas, lamenting Lisa's death.
The letter included areturn address, this poor

Angela (34:46):
family

John (34:47):
right on the envelope, which led investigators to the sender.
And the author who was a Las Vegasman, had met Lisa while she worked
at an Arby's restaurant and wasreportedly enamored with her,
which, you know, let me just say.
You know, I've, I've been out shopping,been to restaurants, been all over the

(35:08):
place, and I've seen some beautiful women.
And never once in my have I been like,I'm in love with this wolf Shang.
If I'm gonna go buy a car just like her,like, how freaking weird do you gotta be?
It's very weird shit like that.
I'm very glad you're not that weird.
Thank you very much.
Insane.
I mean, you know, typically whensomebody develops a fixation like

(35:32):
this on somebody, it's like, overthe course of time and Right.
Multiple, not like I ran intoa pretty girl in an Arby's, and
now I must have her, I must, I'mgonna go drive a car like hers.
And I, this guy's a freaking lunatic, but

Angela (35:46):
missing some crayons.

John (35:48):
Yeah.
So he went so far as to purchasea black Honda, CRX, the same model
the same year, and with a sunroof.
Sunroof, absolutely identical to leases.
After he'd met her,

Angela (36:02):
please tell me he didn't try to put little miss somewhere.

John (36:05):
I don't know.
Not that I know of, butit wouldn't surprise me.
So these details obviously, obviouslyalarmed both Lisa's family and
investigators, given the fact thatLisa's distinctive card played a
central role in her abduction andit was still missing at that time.
So Flickinger had the local A TF officein did not match Lisa's missing car.

(36:29):
The man's DNA was also compared to theforeign DNA found with Lisa's body.
There was no match excludinghim as a suspect in the murder.
And although the man admitted tothis weird ass, creepy freaking
infatuation with Lisa and hispurchase of a similar vehicle.
All being very unsettling.

(36:50):
Both forensic and document evidence.
Rule him out as beinginvolved in the crime.
But let me tell you something.
You tell me, this guy is probablya rapist or a or or something.
Because normal, healthypeople do not act that way.

Angela (37:06):
Yeah.

John (37:06):
I don't know who this guy is.
I could never find his information.
But if he's not on a sexoffender registry or in prison
somewhere, I would be surprised.
Right.
Seriously, this guy's a nut job.
So obviously again, this lead consumedconsiderable time and attention.
Yep.
To that outward plausibility, a suspectwith a personal connection, travel, the

(37:30):
identical car, the suggestive behavior.
So the Las Vegas man's fixation and theletter remain a very curious footnote
in this crime, a striking example ofthe many eccentric unrelated dirt bag
Creepos who surfaced during this longinvestigation, but who played no actual

(37:54):
role in Lisa's disappearance or murder.

Angela (37:56):
I think creepo is a new John word.

John (37:58):
Is it?
I think so.
We, we need some t-shirts or something?
Maybe.
So, like I said, there's no evidence thatever tied this freaking psycho weirdo to
the crime, but the case illustrates justhow unique and or obsessive behaviors
can cause significant diversions.
In major investigations.

(38:20):
And then we have a, a weird one,I guess another weird, I was gonna
say those aren't weird enough.

Angela (38:26):
Now we have a weird one.

John (38:29):
So, a man who had become a suspect in Lisa's investigation was a former
Casper Wyoming cab driver who then movedto Texas and became a police officer.
He entered the investigationdue to disturbing reports about
his interactions with women.
So we, again, we have anotherpre quote do we gotta talk about.

(38:53):
So he had reportedly harassed ormade female passengers uncomfortable
while driving a cab in Casper, whichput him on local law enforcement's
radar after Lisa's murder.
Witnesses or informants suggestedhis pattern and behavior might be in
line with someone who could commit aviolent crime against a young woman.

(39:15):
So again, this poor guy flicking her,pursued this lead right with seriousness
because the officers know in history,in the serious chasing a tail by now.
Oh, he is running all over the place.
Yeah.
So now he gets on a planeand goes to Houston, Texas to
personally question the officer.

(39:36):
Reflecting the links to which he would goto check on any remotely credible leads.
Right?
So the Texas officer, upon learningabout the ongoing murder investigation
readily and voluntarily submitted, um, asample of his blood for DNA comparison.
That comparison, um, to the evidencecollected from Lisa's body showed no

(39:58):
match fully eliminating him as a suspect.
And this line of inquiry demonstrated themethodical nature of the investigation
as agents did not overlook peoplewith troubling histories, even when
they were in positions of trust.
This episode also contributed to thecase's reputation for exhausting a
vast number of leads and suspects, but.

(40:21):
Finding no resolution until the emergenceof DNA of the DNA match in 2002.
No evidence has ever linked thisTexas police officer or his activities
to Lisa Kimmel's murder and hiscooperation with the investigation
was complete and definitive.
And then we have another strangeone, sheriff Ron Ketchum, a

(40:48):
highly controversial lead.
A witness placed him pulling over awoman on March 25th, 1988 with dispatch
records supporting that he was on duty.
Other reports accused him oftargeting women on county roads.
His 1990 suicide attempt onthe anniversary of Lisa's

(41:09):
abduction intensified suspicion.
And after he left office, he reluctantlyprovided DNA and then was eliminated.
So.
Sheriff Ron Ketchum became one ofthe most controversial figures in
the Lisa Marie Kimmel investigation,raising speculation due to his conduct,
witness reports and personal struggles,though he would ultimately go on to

(41:33):
be exonerated, but a credible witnessreported seeing him pull over a young
woman in a patrol car on March 25th, 1988,the same night as Lisa's disappearance
and dispatch records confirmed thathe was on duty, contradicting his
later claim that he wasn't on duty.

(41:54):
Additional reports emerge.

Angela (41:56):
So what was he actually doing?

John (41:58):
I this, this guy, I get all kinds of creepo vibes from this freaking cop.
I'm telling you whatadditional reports emerged.
Accusing kechum of stopping women onisolated county roads, fueling growing
suspicion that he might have usedhis authority for predatory purposes.
Mm-hmm.
Ketchum, a Natrona County sherifffrom 1987 to 1991, was reportedly

(42:23):
adamant about keeping control of theinvestigation, resisting requests by
both the Kimmel family and his owndetectives to bring in federal help.
He allegedly threatened Ron and SheilaKimmel with arrest for obstruction if
they pushed for outside involvement.
This created friction, obviously,between local and federal

(42:46):
authorities and with Lisa's family.
And although Keem's detectives supportedbringing in additional resources, so
following tips and mounting suspicion,federal investigators requested
D-N-D-N-A sample from Ketchum.
Initially, he told him to go to hell.
He said he would not provide hisDNA and were reportedly angry

(43:09):
at being treated as a suspect.
He delayed for over four months, electingonly when threatened with a court order
that would make the request public.
So he finally provided a sample laboratoryanalysis conclusively excluded him as
the source of the DNA found on Lisa'sbody, clearing him as a suspect.

(43:32):
But then in March of 1990, near thesecond, an I mean very near to the second
anniversary of Lisa's disappearance,sheriff Ketchum attempted suicide
and was treated for depression.
Afterwards.
This act close to the case's anniversary,further fueled speculation about

(43:52):
his possible involvement despite anabsolute lack of evidence, and then
his later successful suicide in 2000,revived the rumors, but friends and
some former colleagues emphasized hishistory of depression and personal
troubles unrelated to Kimmel.

(44:13):
So fellow, fellow law enforcement andinvestigators who explored every rumor
stated firmly that there was no evidenceconnecting Ketchum to Lisa's death.
He was never a suspect, but every anglerequired exhaustive investigation.
Multiple law enforcement officers,including those closest to the case, have

(44:35):
stated that persistent allegations stemfrom local vendettas and misunderstandings
rather than any true evidence.
Sheriff Chu's involvement exemplifieshow rumors, public perception, and the
personal behaviors of public officialscan escalate investigative complexity

(44:55):
even in the absence of genuine evidence.
And you know, let me say, Icouldn't find a lot about this
guy, so I really don't know.
But this insinuation that hewould pull over, you know.
Attractive women on remote county roads.
Seriously.
Makes me put a big questionmark on just how much of a

(45:16):
creepo this guy actually was.
Right?
We know that that has happened withlaw enforcement officers forever.
Too much that they've done, you know,not all of 'em obviously, but Oh yeah.
Select few of creepos that becomecops have done stuff like that.
So I, I have no reason to say that hedid, and no reason to say that he didn't.

(45:39):
So.
Then in 1994, Lisa's parents brought inpsychic sisters, and they provided only
vague visions offering no usable leads.
So six years after Lisa's murder, andwith the investigation long stalled,
her parents brought in psychicsisters from Great Falls, Montana.

(46:02):
In the hope that unconventional insightmight help find Lisa's killer or reveal
critical evidence investigators ledby federal agent Don Flickinger and
Nitro County, detective Dan Folsonhad explored countless dead ends
and were reportedly open to anythingthat could help at this late stage.

(46:22):
So Lisa's parents exhausted by yearsof fruitless investigation, genuinely
believed that a psychic interventionmight uncover hidden answers or
guide police towards Lisa's killer.
The psychic sisters met lawenforcement at Government Bridge,
which was the murder site.
One psychic walked the crime scene with aglass of water, a technique said to help

(46:47):
receive visions, and the other held acrucifix that Lisa's father had given her.
The sisters reported receivingimages of a rural setting.
Instead, the number two felt significant.
They also had a vague sense of somethingbeing buried, but they did not elaborate
or offer anything more substantial.

(47:07):
So investigators remain skepticalbut willing to listen, given the
depth of the cold case at this point.
Ultimately, the sister's informationamounted to only vague impressions with
no actionable details or verifiable leads.
No physical evidence or new witnessesresulted from their involvement, and the

(47:29):
session did not advance the investigation.
So Dan Fulson later commented thatby then quote, we were looking at
anything we could try reflectingthe degree of desperation among
investigators and Lisa's family.
The story of the psychics becameemblematic of the lengths to which

(47:50):
both investigators and the Kimmelfamily were willing to go in the face
of years of dead ends and frustration.
But it also underlined the persistentlack of progress until the eventual
DNA breakthrough years later.
So no credible leader evidence ever camefrom the psychics consultation, and it

(48:12):
stands as one of the many unconventionalefforts that were attempted in this
long, unsolved period of Lisa's case.
So, um, you know, it's just someof the obstacles in this case.
Obviously Flickinger was travelingall over the freaking place.
Yeah.

(48:32):
Even to Alaska.
Following these false carsightings, his reputation.
Reputation for collective massiveamounts of blood samples earned
in the nickname the Vampire, Ugh.
Turf and political tension surfacedbetween federal and local law enforcement.
Never a good thing in an investigation.
Right?
And that was especiallytrue under Sheriff Ketchum.

(48:54):
But collaboration continued on the ground.
So by his 1995 retirement,Flickinger work had exhausted
countless theories without results.
He later called Lisa Kimmel's case, hisgreatest professional disappointment,
though he strongly believed thatDNA would some some day solve it.
So.

(49:16):
After his retirement, the murderremained dormant for years.
The preserved rape kit with the male DNAwas essentially the only tangible evidence
that investigators could clinging toleads, slowed down to nothing, and the
case faded into absolute unsolved status.
So for 14 years, the Kimmel family livedwithout any answers and the investigation

(49:41):
battled frustration with a file fullof what ifs and rumors and conflicting
stories, all while Lisa's Honda CRXremained missing and sightings unverified.
So the DNA delays, the semen samplescollected in 88 were not profiled until

(50:03):
2002, and that was due to the emergingtechnology of RFLP, um, which limited.
So with RFLP, they neededa much larger sample.
They weren't able to actuallyduplicate the sample at that time.
So, um, that left absolutelyno match during that time.

(50:25):
And then there were criminal oversightsas well, but the blood on the old
government bridge matched leases,but no immediate suspect ties.
The river search was incomplete.
The car buried beingburied on Eaton's property.
Um, but it remained undetecteddespite multiple area searches.

(50:47):
And so her investigation sufferedseveral notable crime scene oversights
and missed opportunities, allowingcrucial evidence and the perpetrator
actions to go undetected for years.
So.
Like I said, you know, investigators foundLisa's blood on the government bridge and

(51:07):
then the blood meshed Lisa, which verifiedit as the likely scene of her stabbing
and the point from which her body would'vebeen dumped into the North Platte River.
But despite this evidence,investigators could not link any
immediate suspects to the crime scene.
The bridges remote rarely traveledlocation meant that there were no direct

(51:28):
witnesses, there was no surveillance,especially at that time, or physical
links that would point to a perpetrator.
So while the evidence led police totheorize that the killer was likely
local or at least familiar with the area,no further forensic or circumstantial
clues from the bridge itself produceda lead for more than a decade.

(51:50):
So the initial river search afterLisa's disappearance and the discovery
of her body was incomplete whileher body was found in the river.
Other key items such as her clothingand vehicle were never recovered from
the water or from adjoining areas and.
Important evidence may have verywell been missed as personal

(52:13):
belongings and potential cluescould have aided in reconstructing
Lisa's captivity and murder.
Uh, the car, as we've said, was,was, would be a crucial piece, but
it wasn't located for a long time.
So the incomplete search contributedto the case remaining cold as tangible
connections to the killer were neverfound in the vicinity of the bridge.

(52:40):
And then, you know, there werejurisdictional issues, multi-state
involvement, Colorado, Wyoming,Montana, with coordination challenges
between the Nitro County Sheriff'sOffice, the Wyoming D-C-I-F-B-I.
Delayed a federal takeover.
The investigation into Lisa'smurder was hampered by persistent

(53:01):
jurisdictional issues that arosefrom the nature of her disappearance
in the multi-state landscape.
Her disappearance while travelingfrom Colorado to Montana,
being murdered in Wyoming.
So we've got all of this shit yeah.
On, you know, and so Lisa disappearedin Wyoming after she had left

(53:23):
Colorado on her way to Montana.
And so you've gotta investigate leadsfrom every one of those states, obviously,
that somebody follow her from Colorado.
Would somebody come down from Montana?
Is it some random person in Wyoming?
Right?
Like, who the hell knows?
Um.
So obviously that required communicationbetween Wyoming, Montana, Colorado.

(53:48):
Now we have the A TF, and we have the FBI.
And so we got all kinds of shit going on,multiple agencies involved in this, and
then there has to be this coordinationbetween all of these different agencies.
And so it's just afreaking shit show, really.
And then we have the fact that SheriffRon Ketchum didn't want nothing

(54:08):
to do with federal involvement.
He was resistant to any outsideinvolvement and was reluctant to form
any kind of a multi-agency task forcedespite re repeated requests from his
detectives and from the Kimmel family.
So this resistance obviously slowedthe integration of outside experts

(54:29):
like DCI, the FBI, and delayed thebroadening investigative resources.
So, you know, pre-modern protocols,wrist, um, contamination, contamination
when we're talking about the evidence,hand, hand wide hand handling.

(54:50):
So the handling of evidence inLisa's case, I knew you'd get it.
Thank you.
Thanks for that voting.
You're welcome.
Um, illustrates the limitations andvulnerabilities of pre-modern forensic
protocols and investigatory practices,as well as a major delay in leveraging
potentially decisive evidence.

(55:10):
So at the time of Lisa's murder,formal, formal protocols for evidence,
collection and preservation were farless advanced than they are today.
Gloves, sterile containers, chainof custody logs, and contamination
controls were inconsistently enforced.
Nationwide.
This wasn't just Wyoming,this was everywhere, right?

(55:33):
Um, there was potential for contaminationof biological evidence such as blood,
hair fibers, semen, simply due tohandling and storage limitations or
lapses in clearly documenting everytransfer and examination of items.
And although DNA samples from Lisa'srape kit were ultimately preserved

(55:54):
well enough to enable a CODIS match,the intervening years saw evidence
handled by multiple labs and agenciesunder protocols that would today be
considered insufficiently rigorous.
The fragmented, multi-jurisdictionalnature of the investigation further
increase the risk of gaps in custodyand physical integrity of evidence.

(56:17):
And some materials such as furtherclothing, car interior evidence or
other fibers may have been lost,contaminated, or rendered less
reliable by these early practices.
So on October.
So we've, we've talked about this weirdass freaking letter that then would show

(56:38):
up on her grave in, um, October of 98.
And
what I, what I found odd about thatis initially in the investigation,
it was treated as potentialcontact from her killer, but.

(57:00):
There wasn't extensive investigationof like trying to identify like any
of our creepos have handwriting thatmatches this or anything like that,
that would occur after Eaton's arrest,um, where handwriting expert Jim bras
from the Denver Police Departmentwould analyze and match his samples.

(57:22):
But, you know, I do thinkthat this, this letter.
Could have potentially led to, um, anearlier arrest of this piece of shit.
And then early witnesses claimthere was a car at the bridge.
The time the timelines conflicted withthe autopsy, the dismissed leads like

(57:45):
Eaton's prior arrests and being a totalfreaking whack job, Greeno that called
the sheriff's office and said that hewas afraid he was gonna hurt somebody.
I mean, this is shit that really, yeah, heshould have been looked at a lot harder.
And not just for Lisa's case, for alot of the shit that was going on in
this area during this period of time.

(58:06):
Um, we've talked about the fact thatmultiple witnesses reported seeing
Lisa's car with different sweaters,but all, I mean, it is really
strange how that shit all went down.
Yeah, I mean, the likelihoodthat any of those were actually
Lisa is almost none, but.
It's still just weird how somany of these people were like,

(58:27):
no, it was definitely her.
It was her car.
Yeah.
It was those license plates.
Like it's really strange.
You know, we've talked about, we'vetalked about Dale Wayne Eaton consistently
throughout this season of Yeah.
Rocky Mountain Reckoning.
He keeps coming up.
We know that his criminalrecord goes way back.

(58:47):
I mean, the son of a bitch tried toburn his house down when he was a kid.
Yeah.
You know, he was, he was in likea, a facility, a youth facility in
Colorado when he was, was a kid.
I mean, this shit goes way back andsome of which includes mental health
episodes that required psychiatriccare when he was still in Colorado.

(59:10):
And then in the nineties he continueddisplaying violent behavior.
We'll talk about it, but in 97 heassaulted and tried to kidnap a
married couple with their baby.
Yeah.
Down near Rock Springs.
And then he went to prison for that.
And then just, and whichagain, I don't know, man.

(59:34):
I struggle with this because we nowhave a guy in Wyoming, uh, albeit
a ways away in another county.
You know, it's quite a distancefrom Casper to Rock Springs and from
Naron County to Sweetwater County.
But you've got a guy that iskidnapping a family on the road.
Why not?
Why does that not raise some red flags?

(59:55):
Why don't we try to get a DNAsample in that period of time?
Yeah, 1997.
Mm-hmm.
But that didn't happen.
Instead he went toprison for that offense.
Not nearly long enough, by the way.
No, but he was then paroled and,but right after his parole, he was
arrested again for a firearm offense.

(01:00:17):
And then that would leadhim to federal prison.
And in federal prison, again, we'llbe talking about a lot of this, but in
federal prison in 2001, Eaton killed itsfellow inmate caller, Carl Palmer, for
which he received an additional sentence.

(01:00:38):
And so, but despite his proximity to thecrime scene, his property being where
Lisa's car would eventually be found.
But during this period oftime, he's not far from Casper.
Mm-hmm.
He's a freaking creepo.
We know he is a creepo.
Now he's kidnapped a family inRock Springs and still he's not.

(01:01:00):
Yeah.
It just, it really seems like.
This is something that could havepotentially solved this case earlier than
it solved, but I think we do have to talkabout the limited manpower in Casper and
TRO County during this period of time.
Um, their focus on how high profiletips just kind of overwhelmed

(01:01:26):
them, and the 1990s budget cutsslowed any kind of cold case work.
So the Nitro County Sheriff's Officewas the lead agency and it operated
with a small staff and finiteinvestigate investigative resources.
At that time, especially for ahomicide of this complexity, the

(01:01:48):
department struggled to balance thehigh volume of leads that poured in
after Lisa's case erred on unsolvedmysteries, handling over a thousand
tips in the weeks after the murder.
They were just unable to allocatesufficient detective time to
the methodical canvassing andthe on the ground searches.

(01:02:09):
Um, extensive labor intensive workssuch as door-to-door canvassing
or full reconstructing leases.
Travel route was often just not atall feasible within the staffing
restraints, especially as thenational spotlight began to fade.
So, you know, the prominence of Lisa'scase meant that the office often

(01:02:31):
prioritized the most sensational oroutlier tips, such as leads about
the call activity or the reported CRXsightings as far away as can Canada,
regardless of their actual plausibility.
Police

Angela (01:02:47):
free job in Vegas.

John (01:02:49):
What's that?
I said in free job in Vegas.
Exactly.
Yep.
But you know, I think we'd be remiss tonot at least discuss that in the 1990s,
broader budget cuts in funding shortfallshit sheriff's departments across Wyoming.
Hard.
Obviously this included Naron County,so cold cases like leases, which require

(01:03:12):
specialized forensic testing, traveland outside consultation increasingly
became low priority as resources werescarce and so they were relo reallocated
to current emergencies and risingcaseloads in other crime categories.
So investigators including Federal agentDon Flickinger and the N TRO County

(01:03:36):
Sheriff's Office, detective Dan Olson,described the frustration of hitting
walls in manpower and money, meaningeven promising old leads might sit un
pursuit for months or for years dueto lack of funding and staff hours.
So obviously, you know this is goingto have a huge impact on the case.

(01:04:01):
And Casper Police Department and AttorneyCounty Sheriff's Office operated on
modest budgets compared to the nationalaverage for cities of similar size.
In the 1980s.
According to historical public data,Casper typically filled it fewer
than 90 officers for the entire city.

(01:04:23):
With a staffing ratio close to oreven sometimes below the national
median for a similar size city.
Um, sheriff's office budgets in NaronCounty were described in period reports
as tight with funding dependent largelyon county tax revenue and vulnerable

(01:04:46):
to any economic downturns with whichWyoming did experience in the nineties
due to a decline in the energy markets.
So the 1990s budget cuts at thecounty and the city levels led to
periodic hiring freezes, reductionsin overtime, and limitations on
equipment purchases, training, andtravel for investigations, particularly

(01:05:11):
outside the city or the county limits.
The Wyoming State Archive holds lawenforcement center financial records for
1980 to 1982, and budget Casper and NaronCounty, but detailed scan, detailed scans.
Records from the 1990s hadnot been published online.

(01:05:34):
So you know, I basically have to travelto, I think Cheyenne to look at all this.
But the 2023 budget for law enforcementin Naron County for reference was over $18
million for all law and order functions.
With about six and a half million forthe Sheriff's Administration and patrol.

(01:05:57):
And this is a significantincrease from the much leaner
periods of the late 20th century.
So funding shortfalls in the1990s frequently drew complaints
in regional press and were citedby officers and detectives as a
key impediment to the cold case.
Work on cases like leases.

(01:06:19):
So, you know, while preciseline item records for each year
in the 1990s are not digitallyaccessible, the context is clear.
Nitro County law enforcement operatedunder significant resource constraints
with budgets shrinking during the decadeand impacting investigative capacity,

(01:06:39):
especially for major and cold cases.
And.
You know, I just think that it'sreally important that we talk about
that because it's still going on.
Yeah.
You know, from what I understand, ourcurrent sheriff's office is under a hiring
freeze because our county commissionersthink that spending money on a shooting

(01:07:00):
range is somehow better than fundingour law enforcement officers and.
I am absolutely willing, and I'm the firstone on board to jump in and criticize
law enforcement when they're frickingmorons and they do the wrong thing.
Oh.
But on the other side of the coin, wehave to equally back them up when they're

(01:07:24):
not given the resources to do the job.
Like how can we be upset when rightcases are left unsolved when we're
not willing to pay to solve the cases?
The fact is investigations intothese cases are expensive and
cold cases take a back seat.
Yep.

(01:07:44):
And you're not willing to fundlike a cold case unit that can
go back and and investigate thesecases that are left unsolved.
The expectation that the sheriff orthe police department, or whatever
agency we're talking about shouldsomehow prioritize those cold cases

(01:08:04):
over the current cases is ludicrous.
Yeah.
They cannot do it.
So as a society, we have got todecide that this is important and
we need to pay the bill for it.
That's all there is to it.
Now, does it need to be, you know,spent responsibly and is should
there accountability be Yes for that?

(01:08:25):
Well, absolutely, but you know, that'sthe case with every county, every city,
every state up to the federal government.
I don't like where a lot of my money'sbeing spent, and it pisses me off when,
when we're talking about law enforcementagencies that aren't getting enough
money, but yet we're funding whateverfreaking nonsense that we are funding.

(01:08:47):
So, uh, lot of nonsense.
There's a lot of nonsense.
Lisa wasn't the only one.
That's the part.
People forget, or maybe it's thepart they, they try not to see.

(01:09:09):
In the years before and after1988, women kept vanishing
across the west from small towns.
Rest stops, two lane highwaysthat stretched for miles with
nothing but cattle, fence and dust.
Some were found most weren'tdifferent jurisdictions, different
names, but the same ache.

(01:09:31):
The same silence that's stretched outacross Wyoming, Montana, Colorado.
Some of these women.
Weren't even reported missing right away.
They were written off labeled runaways.
Their stories sank before they evensurfaced, and that's where the real
fear crept in because once you seethe pattern, you can't unsee it.

(01:09:55):
And you start to wonder how many predatorswere using the same roads, the same rest
stops, the same routes that Lisa took.
This wasn't just one tragedy, it waspart of something bigger, something.
No one had the tools orthe will to name out loud.

(01:10:21):
I don't wanna spend too much timetalking about this because it is kind
of the whole season of Rocky MountainReckoning is what we're doing is
we're talking about these, you know?
Right.
But just to kinda run through 'em,you know, we've got Janelle Johnson,
which she's had her own episode.
We talked about her.
She disappeared.
Um, and then she was foundin Shoshone, Wyoming.

(01:10:42):
Again, not at all.
Far from Dale Wayne Eden'sproperty, we have Lisa Marie
Kimmel, who we're talking about.
Now we have Irene Vasquez who wasunidentified and no one only is
Bitter Creek Betty for many years.
We know now who likelyvery well killed her.
Um, Clark Perry Baldwin, whojust freaking killed over which.

(01:11:07):
I'm not that sad about, but I do wishhe would've faced justice for this.
Yeah.
Tanya Teskey, who, who will haveher own episode, but she disappeared
after leaving Shoshone, Wyoming.
She lived in Shoshone.
She was last seen in Billingsand her body was found in, in
Idaho on August the 15th of 97.

(01:11:29):
Um, then, you know, there were multipleother cases, some of which we'll discuss,
some of which won't fit into this season.
But, you know, we've got the SweetwaterCounty, Jane Doe, the Sheridan
County, Jane Doe, who has now beenidentified, and then we have high
rates of violence against indigenouswomen in the rural west through the

(01:11:51):
eighties and nineties, up till today.
Yeah.
Montana reported 41 missing and murderedindigenous women ca cases in 2018.
Wyoming had the disproportionate.
Number of indigenous missing persons with,um, you know, a 2021 report noted, 710

(01:12:13):
missing, that's 31% indigenous, despiteonly being 3% of the entire population.
Right.
So of the entire population ofWyoming, only 3% are, is indigenous
people, but yet they make up 31% ofthe missing missing, which is insane.

Angela (01:12:35):
Yeah.

John (01:12:36):
Um,

Angela (01:12:37):
it's like, ha, there are no words.
I, I only have noises now.

John (01:12:43):
I know.
And it's like that honestly, inpretty much every state where
there's a reservation present, it'snot unique to Wyoming, Montana.
It's not even unique to the United Statesbecause you're seeing the same thing with
the first people's nations in Canada.
So this is, this is a problem andit will be the focus of next season
of Rocky Mountain Reckoning, wherewe'll be talking about a lot of these.

(01:13:06):
But you know, just to run through afew of 'em, Eileen k Marshall, um,
who was age four, which is a childcase, but it fits the missing pattern.
She disappeared June 25th, 1983in the Elkhorn Mountains near
Helena during a family picnic.
Patricia Burnett Mehan, who was 37,disappeared April 20th, 1989, following a

(01:13:32):
car accident on a Montana highway, um, aMontana Highway 200 near Circle, Montana.
Sheila Pearl Lewis, who was anindigenous woman that was 33 and.
Was discovered August the third, 1980 nearParker Dam in Washington, which was, you

(01:13:53):
know, obviously it's near Montana, Idaho,and she had massive internal injuries, so
possibly maybe a hit and run or a murder.
But, um, then, you know, we gotta discusssome of the non-indigenous missing.
Amy Al, who would definitely, she,she'll have her own, um, episode

(01:14:15):
or maybe more than one episodethis season because she fits.
And I think that she is very likelyanother victim of Dale Wayne Eaton.
And when we get to her episode,I can go into detail as to why.
But, um, you know, then wehave Vicki Lynn Perkins, we.
She would go missing in 89, um, inUtah, and she'll have an episode.

(01:14:40):
But if she really fits in thispattern of missings, you know,
we talked about Naomi Kidder.
I mean, the list justgoes on and on and on.
I mean, I just sit here alldamn day talking about all
these different, missing women.
But it is, I mean, it's obvious thatwe had a major issue going on in

(01:15:03):
this area during this period of time.
Yeah.
And it's just, um, it'sjust absolutely absurd.
And, and to think, you know, and I'vesaid it a million times, I hate to just
repeat myself, but the fact that noneof us knew this was happening during the
time it was happening, it's just hard.

(01:15:24):
I keep thinking back.
I hear anything.
No.
Didn't hear anything.
Amy rollback Cole.
That was everywhere.
Yeah.
Heard a lot about that case.
Um, Lisa Marie Kimmel everywhere.
I heard a lot about that case.
Janelle Johnson.
I never heard that name.
No.
Naomi Kidder never heard that name.

Angela (01:15:42):
No.

John (01:15:43):
Sharon Bald Eagle never heard that.
I mean, you know, Belindamay grant them Never.
I could just go on.
Yeah.
On and on.
Fox Park, Jane Doe.
Nope.
Never heard of that one.
Sheridan County Jane Doe.
Yeah.
Vasquez Bitter Creek.
Better.
Never heard any of these.
It, it's really crazy andalarming and I don't know.

(01:16:05):
It's just bizarre and aggravating.
It is aggravating for sure.
I mean, it's a travesty and Idon't know what the solution is.
You know, the fact that what onemurder out of, I don't know, I'm
just pulling numbers out of my asshere, but one, one murder out of 500

(01:16:29):
becomes like a big national case.
Yeah.
The other 499, nobody ever, I'm sorry,

Angela (01:16:36):
you don't matter as much.
Yeah.
Don't ever

John (01:16:37):
hears about him.
Once in a great while, one of themwill make it on one of the millions
of freaking true crime showsand podcasts that are out there.

Angela (01:16:47):
Mm-hmm.

John (01:16:48):
But no matter how many of us, there are, no matter how many podcasters
there are out there, no matterhow many true crime documentaries.
The fact is the vast majority of murdervictims never have their story told.
They're forgotten.
We, yeah, we can do thisfor the rest of our lives.
We can do episodes, multipleepisodes every freaking day, 365

(01:17:11):
days a year, and we wouldn't evenbegin to scratch the surface.
I know.
I mean, it's, it's disgusting.
It's insane, is what it is.
It's just unbelievable.
Time didn't bring clarity.
It didn't bring comfort.

(01:17:31):
It brought more questions, more nameson the news, more missing faces in
the paper, and still no answers.
Lisa's family never gave up.
They called every tip line, showedup at every meeting, kept her
photo on the mantle, kept her namein the open air, but hope after a

(01:17:52):
while starts to feel like a weight.
Because carrying it means carryingthe, not knowing who did this,
why her, where did he go, and.
How has he lived with what he did?
These were questions that haunted hermother, that sat with her siblings, that

(01:18:15):
followed investigator's home at night, andthat echoed through every unanswered call.
The silence wasn't just cold, it was cruelbecause someone out there knew exactly
what happened, and they said nothing.
Lisa's case wasn't closed, but for themoment it was quiet, too quiet, and in

(01:18:42):
that quiet, the killer still had a nameand they just didn't know what it was.
Not yet.
She had this habit of writing notes,little reminders to herself, to her mom,

(01:19:05):
to coworkers, a sticky note on the fridge,a scrap of paper tucked in her car visor.
Don't forget lunch.
Love you.
See you soon.
Be safe.
They were small things, ordinarythings, but they came from a person
who didn't take time for granted.

(01:19:27):
Lisa made people feel remembered,even in the middle of an ordinary day.
And it wasn't just the words, it was theway she showed up, the way she cared,
the way she made people believe thingscould get better because she was already
doing her heart to make them better.

(01:19:47):
She didn't move through lifewaiting for things to happen.
She made them happen.
Working, full-time dreaming,saving up for the next step.
Lisa had plans, but more than that,she had momentum and someone stole it.
They didn't just take her life, theyinterrupted a future, still being

(01:20:10):
written, a story that deserved more pages.
Lisa mattered not because of whatwas done to her, but because of who
she was and who she would've become.

(01:20:38):
The years after Lisa's murder were markedby two things, grief and waiting, waiting
for a lead, a break, a name, and forfar too long those things never came.

Angela (01:20:54):
Luis's family never let the silence win.
They kept her story alive.
They spoke her name when othersforgot, and that persistence.
Eventually it paid off.

John (01:21:04):
Next time we'll take you to the moment that the case shifted, the moment
that the DNA finally matched a name.

Angela (01:21:17):
If this episode meant something to you, help us keep Lisa's story alive,
like follow, leave a review and give usa thumbs up wherever you're listening,
and most importantly, share this story.
Someone out there may remember something.

John (01:21:31):
You can support the show and help us keep doing this
work by joining us on Patreon.
Or by making a donation on coffee.
Every dollar goes straight intoresearch, field, work and production.

Angela (01:21:45):
Subscribe to our newsletter on substack.
There you'll find bonus content,case files, full transcripts,
and deeper investigative materialfrom the Dark Dialogue collective

John (01:21:55):
and for real realtime conversation and community.
Join us on Discord.
It's a space for listeners whocare about the victims, about
justice, and about each other.

Angela (01:22:06):
You can also reach us directly at [e-mail].
We listen, we respond, andwe value every message.

John (01:22:13):
This has been Dark Dialogue.
Rocky Mountain Reckoning.
I'm John.

Angela (01:22:18):
And I'm Angela.

John (01:22:19):
We'll see you next time when the shadows start to move.
Until then.
Make the guilty face the reckoning.