Making a Murderer (Episodes 1–3) — Narrative Framing, Omission, and Bias

Dark Dialogue: Unraveled Truths returns with a deep, unscripted examination of Making a Murderer, starting at the beginning.

In this episode, John and Angela break down Episodes 1–3, not to recap them—but to interrogate them. We examine how narrative framing, selective editing, and strategic omissions shape public opinion long before juries ever hear the evidence. From Steven Avery’s exoneration to the early construction of conspiracy, this episode explores what the documentary emphasizes, what it minimizes, and what it leaves out entirely.

This is not a verdict. This is not a defense. It’s an examination of how true-crime storytelling influences belief.

If you’ve ever felt pulled toward certainty by a documentary, this episode is your reminder: don’t take it at face value

Unraveled Truths Making a Murde…

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Episode Transcript

John (00:10):
Before we get on with tonight's show, I want to take a moment to
say this on behalf of me, Angela,and everyone here at the Dark Dialog
Podcast Network, happy holidays toevery single one of you, however you're
spending this season, whether that'ssurrounded by family chosen family.
Friends are just gettingthrough it one day at a time.

(00:33):
We're genuinely grateful that you chooseto spend some of that time here with us.
These stories matter because youlisten, because you care, and because
you keep these conversations alive.
As we close out this year, I alsowant to invite you to join us for
something special on New Year's night.

(00:54):
We're going live with aDark dialogue, live show.
It's a chance to hang outtogether in real time.
Talk about the cases, the stories,the strange and the serious, and
look ahead at what's coming nextfor the network in the Airhead.
No edits, no polish, justreal conversation live.

(01:16):
If you want to join us, you can findall of the details and the livestream
link right now at dark dialog.com/live.
You can set a reminder bookmark andjump in with us when we go live.
So wherever you're listeningfrom, thank you for being here.
Thank you for supporting independentstorytelling, and we hope you'll

(01:37):
ring in the new year with us.
Live.
From all of us here at Dark Dialogue,happy holidays, take care of each
other and keep the dialogue alive.
Welcome back to Dark Dialogue, unraveledTruths, the show where we take true crime

(01:59):
documentaries apart, piece by piece.
Not to recap 'em, but to question 'em.
Today we're diving into making amurderer starting at the beginning.
How many episodes we getthrough depends on where the
conversation takes us because.
This series isn't somethingthat you can rush.
It's not something that we script,and it's definitely not something

(02:19):
that you should take at face value.
We're gonna talk about what thedocumentary shows you, what it emphasizes,
what it leaves out, and how narrativechoices shape public opinion long
before the facts are fully understood.
This isn't a verdict and it's not adefense, it's just an examination.
If you enjoy this kind of deep divedocumentary analysis, make sure that

(02:43):
you're following the show so you don'tmiss future episodes of unraveled truths.
And as always, you can support the workthrough dark dialogue if you choose.
But for now, let's get into it.
Let's unravel Making a Murderer.

Angela (02:57):
That should be one of my, uh, disclaimers.
Don't take at face value.

John (03:02):
Yeah, you think so?
Yeah.
So you have kind of just startedwatching the show, right?
Yeah.
Making, making a Murderer.
It's in Making a Murderer.
A Netflix documentary for those thathave not seen it, it's on Netflix.
I don't remember exactly when it came out.
For seasons,

Angela (03:20):
isn't there because there's feel like

John (03:21):
season two

Angela (03:22):
is a different murderer.

John (03:23):
No,

Angela (03:23):
it's not.

John (03:24):
No, it's a different lawyer.

Angela (03:27):
Oh

John (03:28):
yeah.

Angela (03:28):
Okay.
Then

John (03:28):
same case.

Angela (03:29):
Haven't gotten that far.

John (03:30):
Different lawyer you

Angela (03:31):
could tell.

John (03:32):
So, um, yeah, you have what?
You're just kind of started, right?
Yeah.
It's the first,

Angela (03:37):
so I started it months ago when you told me to.
And I don't remember what happened becausewhen I went back to watch it a few,
you know the little Netflix, the littlered line that says you've watched it?
Yeah.
I had a few and I was like,okay, I did start this.
Why doesn't any of it seem familiar?

(03:58):
And by the second episode it started toseem familiar, but I did have to go back.
'cause as we all know, I'm weird.
And if I consume anything in between ustalking about it, then I forget there's
not enough room in my brain for it.

John (04:12):
That makes sense.

Angela (04:13):
It pushes something out.
It's like Dream Catcheryou have to get rid of.

John (04:17):
You gotta get rid of so, so you fat.
Yeah.
That makes you gotta

Angela (04:19):
get rid of the lyrics to Blue by you.
So you remember all the other stuff.

John (04:22):
Yeah.

Angela (04:23):
Yeah.

John (04:23):
So the documentary came out in 2015 and,

Angela (04:27):
oh, I am late to the bus, aren't I?

John (04:30):
Yeah, pretty late.

Angela (04:30):
Yeah, a little bit late.

John (04:32):
It actually premiered yesterday.
December 18th in 2015.
Oh, and it's one of the reasonsthat it hit so big, fitting

Angela (04:40):
that I rewatched some of it yesterday

John (04:42):
because it, it hit right when everybody was home on
Christmas break and everything.
And so everybody just binge washedthis freaking thing and holy crap.
Did he get babe?

Angela (04:56):
It was kind of like, uh oh man.
The Tiger King in 2020 almost brokethe internet because everybody
was home for COVID and theyall binge watched Tiger King.

John (05:09):
Oh yeah, that makes sense.
I haven't

Angela (05:10):
finished that yet either, so I don't know much about it.

John (05:12):
But yeah, I kinda lost interest, honestly.
But so episode one of Making a Murder, itstarts out with, you know, Stephen Avery.
He's this guy, he's in prison.
He just did 18 years in prison for the1985 sexual assault of Penny Bernstein.

Angela (05:31):
Mm-hmm.

John (05:32):
And then 2003, he was exonerated, DNA evidence came out
proving that he definitely wasnot the guy that assaulted her.
And so episode one really kindof focuses on that whole aspect.
His previous 1985 conviction,the DNA results that exonerated

(05:55):
him, him coming home.
He's this big teddy bear, kind of a.
Frigging moron with his bigass, stupid looking beard and

Angela (06:03):
yeah.
Oh man.

John (06:05):
Yeah.
He needed

Angela (06:06):
a brush bag.

John (06:07):
He needed something.
I was

Angela (06:08):
definitely judging.
I was definitely judging.

John (06:11):
Yeah.
So I guess, first of all, whatwere your thoughts on episode one?
All of all of that shit?

Angela (06:18):
Honestly, I was, it could have started better.
'cause I, I think I was tellingyou this the other day, I
feel like I missed an episode.
It just started.

John (06:28):
Yeah.

Angela (06:29):
Like, not who are we talking about?
What's going on?
It just

John (06:33):
dove right into it.

Angela (06:34):
Threw me into the deep end.

John (06:36):
Yeah.

Angela (06:37):
And I was like, I, I literally went back and said, did I miss an episode?
And I hadn't.
So it was, I don't like howit started Netflix people.

John (06:47):
Well, it, it actually was, I mean, Netflix definitely was very instrumental
in the show, but it was a lawyer.

Angela (06:56):
Yeah.

John (06:57):
And she was writing a subway train.
It didn't go through thisin the actual series.
No.
So he's not

Angela (07:03):
yet, not where I'm at.

John (07:04):
So she is a lawyer or a law student.
I can't remember if sh I don'tthink she had passed the bar yet.
Anyways, it doesn't matter.
She was a, at least the law studentand living in New York and riding
the train and was reading an articlein the New York Times, I think about
the Stephen Re case and she justdecided, this is my new calling.

(07:28):
I'm gonna be a documentary filmmaker.
Traveler Asta Wisconsin startedthis whole big shit show with
her partner, whatever they are.

Angela (07:40):
Okay.

John (07:40):
And they are the two women that.
Produced this crap.

Angela (07:46):
Well, we know how John feels, end of story.

John (07:48):
Yes.
So, so one of the things, uh, that,that is discussed that I have a
big problem with is discussed inepisode one, is they kind of go
through his criminal background.

Angela (08:05):
Yeah.
And

John (08:06):
how he was really not that bad of a guy.
I mean, he broke name a lot onhis, just having his last name.
Like Yeah.
Avery's a back.
He was an Avery.
Yeah.
And he was picked on by the police.
They picked on him and his

Angela (08:22):
cousins picked on him

John (08:24):
and he really didn't do anything all that serious.
Uh, he broke into a bar andstole $14 worth of quarters.
Yeah.
And.
I don't know.
Threw a cat in a fire, not, youknow, nothing, no big deal to them.
Threw it over a fire.
Oh yeah.
Threw a cat over a fire.
And so diving right in on that bunchof bullshit when making a murder

(08:49):
conveniently leaves out is Stephen Avery.
And, and the other thing that it does ishe fell in with the wrong group of people.
Yeah.
They're the ones thatgot him to rob the bar.
They're the ones that got himto throw the cat over the fire.
It

Angela (09:06):
was like them having their cake and eating it too though.
He either, he either was ostracizedand no one talked about him to or
to him or hung out with him, but yethe fell in a crowd of wrong people.
What?
Pick one.
You can't have 'em both.
He can't be alone and withpeople at the same time.

John (09:23):
So it's really important to know.
We'll talk about the bar break in first.
Okay.
Start with the son of a bitchbroke into the bar three times.
The first time they himdo it all three times.
The first time he was completely alone.
Broke the window.
Yeah.
And broke in and stole some shit.
Same bar.
Same bar.

(09:43):
Okay.
Then the bar owner patched up thewindow with a piece of cardboard.
Aw.
And Avery and his friend went back,tore the cardboard off, broke in again.
And if I remember correctly thattime, they stole quite a bit of
alcohol, some money, and I don'tthink that they destroyed the place.

(10:05):
Too bad that time.
And then the third time they brokein the bar owner had patched the
window with a piece of plywood.
Oh my gosh.

Angela (10:14):
Bar owner.

John (10:16):
They're, well, I mean, you know, I can't blame the guy they
break in this freaking window.
He probably couldn't getsomebody to come and fix it.
So he did the best thing that he couldand screwed up a piece of plywood over it.
They come rip the plywoodoff, break in again.
Avery gets a freaking, stealsa pizza, cooks it at the place.

(10:37):
And then I did not hear.
Of course not.
And then they justabsolutely destroy the place.
I mean, break shit, throw shit all overthe floor, just wreck the freaking bar.
And then when his dad, and they don'teven touch on this in making a murder,

(10:59):
I don't think they even mention it.
His dad goes up to their place up northin Wisconsin, in northern Wisconsin.
They have, um, cabin, like a, yeah,it's, it's just a house, but they
call it kind of a cabin or whatever.
His dad goes up there, sees awhole freaking garage full of shit,
lawnmowers and all kinds of shit.
Calls the cops and is like,I got a whole bunch of shit

(11:22):
that I don't, that isn't mine.
I don't own.
So the cops come, we'll come to find outhe's stolen all this shit from neighbors.
Oh geez.
And I think if, if memory serves mecorrectly, him and his wife went on their
honeymoon and he stole a bunch of shitwhile, while they were on their honeymoon.
Mm. I mean, the guy is a freakingpile of shit, thieving bastard.

(11:44):
No doubt about it.
No doubt about it.
Okay.
But they leave all of that out.
Yeah.
Conveniently in making a murderer.

Angela (11:51):
Yeah.

John (11:51):
Second part.
He used

Angela (11:52):
to feel bad for him a lot.

John (11:54):
Oh yeah.
'cause he is so picked on.

Angela (11:56):
I feel bad for his parents though.
Is that warranted?

John (11:59):
No.
His dad's a total piece of shit.

Angela (12:02):
Dad, Dave,

John (12:02):
his dad is a total piece of shit.
I feel.
I feel bad for hisbrothers and his sister.
But I don't feel bad for, no, I get

Angela (12:11):
that feeling from his sister.
I thought she was a little

John (12:14):
Oh no.
He beat the piss out at her.
Oh, really?
Oh, yeah.

Angela (12:17):
Okay.

John (12:17):
Yeah.
And that, you know, that you won't, there

Angela (12:19):
are things I don't know.
Well,

John (12:20):
these are things that you won't know because Making a murder
does not cover any of it becauseit's not a documentary at all.
It's a freeze.
It's absolute bullshit.
Just a, a figment of thesetwo women's imagination is
essentially what this shit is.

Angela (12:40):
Like, did they have a crush on him or something?
What?
Why did they No, I thinkhim so wonderfully.

John (12:45):
Well, honestly, what I think happened, and I am just, this is my
opinion, I am just guessing at this.
Yeah.
But what I, this is our opinions people,but what I think happened is they,
this check saw this article and shedecided that this guy was, you know,
innocent and they were going out todo this story on this innocent man.

(13:07):
And then the whole TheresaHalach thing happened.
Mm-hmm.
And their whole idea wouldgo out the window Yeah.
If he was guilty.
And so they just decided to whitewashthe whole thing and turn it into
the cops are attacking this guy.

Angela (13:23):
Yeah.

John (13:24):
And so, and, and like the cat thing is another perfect example of that.
Making a murderer makes it sound likeyou said he threw a cat over a fire Yeah.
And got busted for.
Cruelty to animals.
What happened was he chased this cataround, caught it, covered it in gasoline,
and threw it in the freaking fire.

Angela (13:45):
And he said it was the family cat.

John (13:47):
Yeah, it was his family.
Yeah.
It was the family cat sauna.
And then it, the poor damn thing jumpedout of the fire like any animal was gonna
do scattering for its head and this sonof a bitch catches it, pours more gas on
it and throws it back in the fire to die.
I mean, that is cruelty beyond.
This is a special place in hell, dude.

(14:08):
Well, and it, I mean, it's ironicallypart of the homicidal triad Yeah.
That we learn about from freaking theFBI that, you know, serial killers
oftentimes are cruel to animals.
Right.
So, and And that iscompletely whitewashed.
Completely whitewashedby making a murderer.
They make it.
This

Angela (14:27):
is all in good fun.
We're all around the campfire.

John (14:30):
Yeah.
They make it seem like itwas a couple of teenagers.
Don't doing dumb shit.
The guy was married at this point.
Mm-hmm.
He's no freaking teenager.
He's a grown ass man andhe's an evil son of a bitch.
That is cruel as hell.
I can't even imaginetrying to kill any animal.
I know.
By throwing it in a freakingfire covered in gasoline.

(14:53):
What that is Just evil.
Yeah.
Evil.
And so it is absolutely bullshitthe way that they covered that.

Angela (15:03):
Okay.

John (15:04):
And then, you know, they make it seem like in this 1985
sexual assault investigationthat deputies decided right away.

Angela (15:12):
Yeah.

John (15:13):
It was absolutely Stephen Avery.
The guy had a picture ofhim before he drew it.
Yeah.
They made it all up and, and convincedthe, but they really compressed like
decades of paperwork and shit into this.
Uh, I don't know, to make it justseem like the cops just didn't

(15:35):
like this guy, first of all, theguy is a total piece of shit.
He's a total piece of shit.
And it's not that unusual when you'rea total piece of shit and you the
cops to not, and you have been incountless amounts of trouble mm-hmm.
Burglaries and, and theshit with, with his cousin.
And you've been in all thisfreaking trouble and it's not that

(15:59):
unusual that the cops look at you.
It's not that strange.
And then the victim identified him.
So was it a wrongful identification?
Did the cops do anything wrong?
Potentially, maybe, I don't knowenough about that 1985 case to really
come down one way or the other.

(16:20):
I just know it is notthat clear cut and simple.
And it's not like you've got thisteenage kid that's part of the
wrong family that the cops shouldjust decide they're gonna torment.
Yeah.
The son of a bitch was on the copsradar because he was a criminal period.
What else?
What else do you get to say about that?

Angela (16:39):
I, I don't, I don't know that I have anymore else to say about, I just, it
does tug at the heartstrings and make youwant to believe that he's just picked on.

John (16:52):
Yeah, it does.
And then so then they also talkabout this issue with his cousin.

Angela (16:58):
Yeah.

John (16:59):
And she's married to law enforcement.
Mm-hmm.
And she just doesn't like him.
And so she's gonna go after him and.
It's all made up.
And it's only because she hasan ax to grind against poor
Stephen Avery, who apparentlyeverybody in the world picks on.
But

Angela (17:19):
isn't his uncle in law enforcement too?

John (17:21):
Yes.
His uncle was a sheriff's deputy.
Okay.
But that's not that important apparently.
No.
Her one cares shit.
But interestingly, um, she ismarried to like a reserve officer.
He's not even like a full-time officer.
He is like a, a reserve officer.
They call him in when they needsome extra help type of shit.

(17:42):
Gotcha.
But they completely leaveout the whole freaking story.
So having watched it withoutknowing any of the other stuff,
what is your perspective onthe whole Sandra Morris thing?
That's his cousin, Sandra Morris.
And what is your take on that whole thing?

Angela (18:01):
Um, well, honestly, it's, to me, I thought it was an equal hate thing.
Like they both just equally hated eachother, and it was to see who could
just do more damage to the other Right.
Is what it felt like to me.
Yeah.
So, I mean, I didn't think, in allhonesty, the very first time hearing the

(18:21):
stories, I didn't think either one ofthem was more a victim than the other one.

John (18:27):
Fair enough.
'cause I think that that's howit's designed to make you think.

Angela (18:30):
Yeah.

John (18:31):
So the story that, um, making a murderer portrays
is exactly what you said.
These two cousins don't like eachother, they're fighting with each other.
Um, he came out with a rifleone time and, and yeah.
She said that he was having sexon the front lawn with Yeah.
With his wife and, yeah.
Right.
Okay.
Actual story.

(18:52):
First of all, she never said anythingabout him having sex on the lawn.
That was a neighbor.
Okay.
Making a murder convenientlyedited the testimony to make
it sound like it came Yeah.
From her.
But actually during that deposition,the attorney asked her about it
and she was like, I don't knowwhat the hell you're talking about.

(19:13):
Yeah.
I never said this.
Let me finish the conversation.
He says, but the actual wholeconversation was, you know, I
didn't say that this wasn't me.
And then the, then the lawyer realizes,oh yeah, this is attributed to a neighbor.
It's not attributed to you.
Mm-hmm.
All that shit's leftout of making a murder.
Okay.
They selectively edited to makeit sound like she this claim,

(19:35):
and now she's lying about it.
Right.
That is not at all what happened.
Right.
She didn't make the claim and she pointedthat shit out during the deposition.
Second tiny little thing that Ithink is important to discuss.
He got in his vehicle.
Yeah.
Chased her down the road, ran into theback of her car, pushed her off the road,

(19:57):
jumped out with a gun and attempted tokidnap her, at which point she begged.
Please don't I have mydaughter on the front seat.
Let me take my daughterto my parents' house.
Mm-hmm.
And then I'll go anywhere with youthat you want me to go, but you know,
I can't leave my daughter here onthe front seat to freeze to death.

Angela (20:17):
Yeah.

John (20:18):
And then Avery, who.
According to making a murder, alwaysfesses up to everything he's ever done.
Yep.
Yeah.
He runs home as fast as he can, freakinggo, puts the gun under his kids'
bed, strips down, crawls into bed.
The cops come because obviously SandraMorris went to her dad's house and

(20:39):
was like, um, this just happened.
And dad was like, call the cops.
Yeah.
So the cops show up at Steven Avery'shouse and he comes to the door.
I just woke up, what do you need?
Yeah.
The cop was pretty freaking heads up andhe reaches over and puts his hand on the
hood of the car, which is warm as shit.

(21:00):
Yeah.
Because Avery just got back home.
And then, then finally, Avery,once he's busted, then he
finally admits what he did.
Right.
Another big, big, big part totalk about when it comes to
that whole Sandra Morris thing.
Avery didn't do 18 years inprison because he was wrongfully

(21:21):
convicted for a 1985 rape.
Avery did 12 years in prison because hewas wrongfully convicted for a 1985 rape.
Okay.
He did six years in prison for thearmed assault on his freaking cousin
that he was found guilty of andsentenced to six years in prison for.
Gotcha.

(21:42):
So making a murderleaves all that shit out.
That made it seem, yeah.
And then, and that does become importantwhen we get to the whole lawsuit and
the whole reason that the cops aregonna, you know, frame him for murder
because the whole lawsuit is based ona billion dollars a year for 18 years.
Mm-hmm.
Plus $18 million in punitivedamages, essentially.

(22:05):
And it was

Angela (22:06):
like 35 or 32 30

John (22:08):
6 million.
36

Angela (22:09):
million.

John (22:09):
And so, but in truth.
Only 12 years of that would've applied inthe lawsuit because only 12 years of it
was because he was wrongfully convicted.
He was rightfully convicted for theother thing, armed kidnapping, and who
the hell knows what would've happenedif she wouldn't have had her kid with
her and been able to talk him out?

(22:30):
I think he'd have murdered her.
You think so?
I think he would've likely murdered her.
I mean, why else do you kidnapsomebody at gunpoint because you
want to take him out to dinner?

Angela (22:41):
What would've been, I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here.
Absolutely.

John (22:45):
That's

Angela (22:45):
what this about.
Why?
Why would he have wanted to kill her?
I mean, because

John (22:51):
he's a freaking psychopath.

Angela (22:53):
Well,

John (22:53):
that kills people.

Angela (22:55):
Like you're definitely gonna get caught if you're killing a family member.

John (22:59):
You're definitely gonna get caught if you kill a woman that comes to your
house to take pictures of your vehicle.

Angela (23:06):
I hadn't gotten that far yet.

John (23:09):
The son of a bitch does not think ahead.
Okay?
He is the quintessential criminal mindthat is too stupid to really plan.
He's not like what would be describedas a highly organized offender.
He reacts on emotion and just doesshit because he feels like he's, it's
the same thing with like breakinginto the bar, burning the Cadillac.

(23:33):
If

Angela (23:33):
I'm gonna be accused, I might as well just do it because
they're always saying he's an Avery.

John (23:39):
I don't think this shit ever happened.

Angela (23:41):
Okay.

John (23:42):
They said he's guilty because he freaking breaks into places
and steal shit everywhere he goes.
The son of a bitch can't even goon a honeymoon without breaking
into someplace and stealing shit.
So that, I mean, that's what I think.

Angela (23:56):
I don't know if it matters, but Where is that wife now?
I know.
I know that he's said somepretty shitty things to her.

John (24:05):
Oh God, you don't even know the half of it.

Angela (24:07):
No, I know what they were.
They've allowed us to know.

John (24:11):
So another thing that making a Murder does not even
touch on is the fact that.
He was abusing his kids when theywould come and visit him in prison.
And so the judge barred them fromgoing to, from having to go see him
because the kids testified that he'dpinch 'em and do all this mean shit

(24:32):
to him when they went to visit him.
And so the judge said, well,you don't have to go anymore.
So the wife took the kids andbailed, and the kids grew up and
they had nothing to do with him.
The only kid that had anything todo with him was his daughter, who in
episode one you see holding his handwhen they leave the jail and shit.

(24:55):
And he is holding herbaby or something too.
I don't know whose kid that was, honestly.
Okay.
I don't know.
But then she ends up not havinga shitting thing to do with
him by the time it's all over.
She spends a little bit of timewith him and then she doesn't have
anything to do with him either.
Right.
So none of his kids haveanything to do with him.
That wife got the hell out of there.
As far as you know, how she livedthe rest of her life and stuff.

(25:16):
I have no clue.
I just know that she ran far as shefreaking could from Steven Avery.
She could and stayed the hellaway from the psychopath.
So then as we get to kind of the tail end,is there anything else that we haven't
covered that was covered in episode one?

Angela (25:33):
I don't, nothing that's screaming to me.
It should scream to youa little better than it.

John (25:39):
Yeah.
I mean, episode one wasn't just fullof a whole bunch of shit because
the primary focus on it just weird.
It left me just confused.
Yeah.
The primary focus on it was the 1985.
Mm-hmm.
Um, conviction and the wrongfulconviction and all that.
So, like I said, I haven't spent a lotof time looking into that whole aspect.

(26:02):
I don't know that there's alot of reason to because he was
exonerated, like there's no doubt.
Right.
The guy did not commit the rape.
And I do you know, I mean the witnessestestified that he was with them.
He was apparently not.
Apparently he was helpinghis, his family pour concrete.

Angela (26:21):
Mm-hmm.
So

John (26:21):
he was with the family all day long.
And then a little while after that, hiswife and him like, took off and went
to like Madison, I think, and did someshopping, got some gas, shit like that.
And then he came home and then hespent the rest of the night with his
brother hanging drywall and in a house.
And so it wasn't like the jurydidn't hear from the witnesses, they

(26:46):
just, it just didn't impact them.
They found him guilty.

Angela (26:50):
Yeah.

John (26:51):
That's more on the jurors than it is on the.
The prosecutors, in my opinion,the jurors found the witness
testimony more compelling thanAvery's friends and family.
And is that right?
No, the guy was wrongfully convicted.
Right?
He was exonerated.
He should have nevergone to prison for that.

(27:12):
And if, if the story ended there,then I would be all on Stephen Avery's
side as far as that aspect goes.
Okay.
The guy's, he's still a piece of shit,and I don't think he could have lived
in society without ending up back inprison because he's one of those people.
So then it, then it kind of starts toforeshadow the conspiracy a little bit.

(27:37):
Talk a little bit about the Hallock case.
Yeah.
Um, it ends with, um, connectinghis civil suit that he's gonna
be suing for to the mm-hmm.
85 case.
And this new apparent murdercharge, which involves a young
lady by the name of Theresa Halach.

(27:58):
And it is basically, it kind of invitesthe audience to, to see the, the future
homicide investigation as a retaliationor damage control by this corrupt system
so they don't have to pay the money.
Yeah.
Right.
And so, you know, I mean, I think that aswe kinda get in this and kinda discuss all

(28:21):
of it, um, I do think that you're gonnastart to see that it's very dishonest.
What.
What making a murderer does.
Okay.
Um, and so then we, then we go in.
I don't think there's a whole lotmore to say about episode one.
That's kind of the, where it ends,you know, there's not a lot of

(28:41):
countering, like I said, be justbecause it's mostly about shit that's
already been proven to be false.
Right.
So then we start in episode two,and that's kind of his, his life
after he was exonerated and getsinto his civil rights lawsuit.
And this, this $36 million lawsuit wherehe's going to sue for, like I said, a

(29:05):
million dollars a year for all 18 years,and then punitive damages at 18 million.
So he's guaranteed $36 million.
Yeah.
And I mean, first of all, thatthat just didn't how shit works.
I mean, you can sue for $7 billion ifyou want, but that does not mean Yeah.
That you're gonna get $7 billion.

(29:26):
So.
Episode two really kind of, uh, divesinto, gives release a little bit
more, but more importantly, it divesinto like the public apologies, the
Senate getting involved and yeah.
You know, drafting like the Avery billand, you know, dives big time into the
civil suit against Manitowoc County.

Angela (29:48):
What is that Wrongful act something?
Those people that want

John (29:53):
what they were drafting.
The

Angela (29:54):
wrongfully accused?
No, that group of people.
The wrongfully accused

John (29:57):
Oh, the Innocence Project.

Angela (29:58):
Thank you.

John (29:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Innocence Project, which is a greatorganization, it really freaking
is, and they've gotten multiplepeople off a death row that were.
Not guilty.
Right.
And so, but yeah, I mean, Averywas kind of made the poster
child for the Innocence Project.
He was put on their website, hewas invited to all these functions.

(30:20):
He really became a local celebrity

Angela (30:22):
who the hood ornament though.
And a lot of the things, he wasjust sitting in the background.
They just wanted him there.

John (30:26):
Oh yeah, exactly.
I mean, that's, that's how it always is.
But, you know, he, um, he, he really didbecome like this local celebrity person.
And then that's gonna play intosome other parts as we kind of go
through the series a little bit, but.
I do wanna say that, first of all,just to reiterate, like I said, you

(30:47):
can sue for anything you want to.
Yeah.
But at that time, and even now, exonereesare not getting that kind of money.
Like there's been multiple exonereesall over the country that have been
found not guilty, released from prison.
And they're not getting,they just don't get anything.
They don't get anything or what, you know,I think a, a pretty standard that I have

(31:11):
seen is roughly a hundred thousand a year.
Yeah.
Essentially replacing,uh, a good income Yeah.
That they could have made during thatperiod of time, but not making 'em rich.
So they're saying, you know.
50,000 a year.
A hundred thousand a year.
That's typically sometimes

Angela (31:31):
the attack on a little bit more for pain and suffering.

John (31:34):
Yeah.
But you're still not getting amillion dollars plus another $18
million in punitive damages andmaking a murder frames this as
though it's a foregone conclusionand he's only weeks away from it.
Like if he can just keep hisnose clean for a week, he's
gonna get a $36 million check.

(31:54):
Well, anybody that knows anythingabout lawsuits, knows it,
don't work that freaking quick.
He had just filed suit, it was yearsbefore he was gonna collect that money.
It was not weeks.
If he was gonna collect it, ifhe won, it would've been years.

(32:15):
And he was gonna have to prove, provein a court of law that the Sheriff's
Department conspired against him.
To wrongfully convict him.
They knew he was innocentand they convict.
That's an extraordinarilydifficult Oh yeah.
Case to prove.
And I don't think there's any way inhell that he would've been able to,

(32:37):
but even if he was, it was years away.
He was not a week awayfrom getting $36 million.
I just think it's importantthat we talk about that.
But again, with episode two, there'snot a shit ton of stuff that comes in.
I think one really important thing that,um, that comes in on episode two is Andy

(33:01):
Coburns receives this call from somebodythat says, you, we have a prisoner in
our facility that committed a crime.
That somebody in yourfacility is in jail for.

Angela (33:15):
Hmm.

John (33:15):
And Andy Colburn didn't do anything, and then he, he made a
statement, was yours and years later, my

Angela (33:24):
files.
Is that what you're getting at?

John (33:26):
No, that was the prosecutor.
Okay.
No, Andy Colburn is, isthe deputy and Oh, okay.
He receives this phone call sayingfrom another facility saying that they
have somebody in their jail basicallyconfessing to a crime that somebody
in Manitoc County is in jail for.
Okay.
And, and they really frameAndy Colburn as a villain here.

(33:51):
And then he's also gonna be then oneof the key players in framing Stephen
Avery for this murder because he isquote unquote named in the lawsuit.

Angela (34:04):
Hmm.
Okay.

John (34:06):
So.
They really paint him as likethis worthless pile of shit.
Well, I think it's really important tonote that Andy Colburn, first of all,
do you know where Andy Colburn was in1985 during the whole, during the whole
wrongful conviction of Stephen Avery?

(34:28):
All of the shit that he's going toconspire against Stephen Avery for,
do you know where he was at that time?

Angela (34:36):
I wanna give you a really sarcastic answer, but
I shouldn't No, go for it.
I was gonna say in the words of CliffClavin, he was not in my kitchen.
Yeah,

John (34:46):
yeah.
The guy was in the, I'm prettysure he was Navy and he wasn't
even in this country at the time.
He's sure as the shit wasn'ta deputy for Manis County.
He wasn't even here.
But yet he's conspires and he'sgonna conspire to commit murder and
frame it on somebody else, John.

(35:06):
So that's really super interesting,I thought, because Making a Murderer
goes out of their way to castAndy Colburn as the big villain.
Right?
And as you watch the rest of the series,you're gonna really see how much they
do that shit, and it's absolutely wrong.

(35:26):
But it's important to note that in1993 when this call, or the early
nineties, I'm pretty sure it was 1993when this call supposedly came through.
Andy Coburn wasn't asworn deputy in Wisconsin.
Jailers aren't sworn deputies, sohe was just working in the jail.

(35:49):
Part of working in the jail, andit's the same thing in every jail.
It's the same thing in thejail here as anywhere else.
A lot of the times calls go to them.
He was in the control room at the jailand he received this phone call and this,
this guy told him this, and so Andy Coburnsaid, you probably want to talk to a

(36:12):
detective about this and forwarded thecall to the deputy or to the detective.
Then they crucify him becausehe never wrote a report.
Son of a bitch, if you wrote a report onevery freaking call that you get, right.
When you're working in a place that gets,I mean, Andy Coburn would go on to say
that during a four hour period, he wouldprobably transfer like 20 to 30 calls.

(36:35):
Mm-hmm.
Is he gonna write a reporton every one of those?
Apparently he should have been.
He passed it on to the detective, whichis exactly what he should have done.
If the ball was dropped, itwas dropped by the detective.
It was not dropped by Andy Colburn.
And so, and

Angela (36:49):
you don't stand up for police people if they don't deserve it.
So,

John (36:54):
no, I don't.
I'm happy to crucify though.
So, and then the RAV4 is found on Averysalvage yard property by a volunteer
Pam of God who she become no one ofbecause, and they made it look so fast.

(37:15):
Yeah.
Like she just walked in andwalked straight up to this car.
That is not how it happened at all.
By the way.
Her and her daughter searched.
They searched a line of carsthat made perfect sense as they
worked their way across the yard.
And then it was very logicalfor them to move from that line
of cars to these cars that wereparked up on the hill right there.

(37:37):
And so when you really look at how thesearch transpired, it's not that weird.
Yeah.
But she gets drug through the mudbecause she was a private investigator.
Obviously police love privateinvestigators, except ironically, when
you're acting as a private investigator,then they look down their noses at you and

(37:58):
they don't want anything to do with you.
But yeah, if, if they're framing somebodyfor murder, then you're their best
friend and they will immediately goto a private investigator to help you.
Yes.
And the, the one problem that I havewith this whole thing is especially the
whole Pam of God thing, and I don't thinkthey refer to her as that and make you

(38:20):
murderer, but No, I don't remember that.
That's what, um, many of the advocates forStephen Avery have started to call her as
Pam of God, because on the stand she saysthat she believes God led her to the RAV4.
So now she's known as Pam of God.
And the whole thing that youhave to reconcile is Pam of

(38:44):
God is, I think Theresa's aunt.
And so you have to believe thatTheresa's aunt either was involved
in her murder or was told of hermurder and convinced to cover it up
and frame an innocent man for it.

(39:04):
So how do you reconcile that one?

Angela (39:06):
Yeah,

John (39:07):
it's not like Pam is listed in the lawsuit.
It's not like Ham has anything togain from framing Steven Avery.
Right.
So why exactly would Pam geton board with frady him and
helping the sheriff's office?
No, it makes no logical freaking sense.

(39:27):
None.
And then I think it's also, um.
And I think they start to lead in,in episode two where they, they start
to talk about human remains beingfound on the Avery property and,
and then they really kind of startcrafting this narrative that the cops

(39:49):
planted this whole, this whole thing.
Because

Angela (39:53):
he couldn't have gotten a bonfire hot enough.

John (39:56):
Right.
Yeah.
He could have never gottena bonfire hot enough.
And then, you know, I mean, dependingon which story you want to believe
that Avery told, he either didor didn't have a fire that night
because he told multiple stories andthey changed as evidence was found.
It's very interesting how that works.
Mm-hmm.
How, you know, as soon as theydiscover evidence that he had a fire,

(40:20):
then all of a sudden he had a fire.

Angela (40:22):
Did have a fire,

John (40:23):
it was actually in a jail call that he was talking to his sister and.
He said, I didn't have a fire that night.
I don't know if they'd playedit in episode one or two,
but it's in the series.
And he says, I didn'thave a fire that night.
And she's like, yeah, you did.
Maybe it isn't in making a murderer.
But anyway, it happened.

(40:45):
And she, he says, I neverhad a fire on that night.
And she was like, yeah,I'm pretty sure you did.
Because when I came home,there was a big fire.
And then he immediately says,then Brendan was with me.

Angela (40:58):
Yeah.

John (40:59):
And so it's, it's just interesting how he, he's very good at this bullshit.

Angela (41:06):
Okay.

John (41:07):
So then there's also this emerging narrative of this law enforcement
conflict of interest in the fact thatManitowoc County officers, particularly
Lincoln Colburn, were present.
Key search moments despitesupposedly recusing themselves from

(41:29):
the case and saying they're notgonna have anything to do with it.
So let me just ask you a question.
Shoot you, um, you are aninvestigator and you decide that
you're gonna murder somebody.
Do you murder them and thensay, I can't investigate this.
I need to bring in a thirdparty to investigate it?

(41:50):
Or do you investigate it yourself?

Angela (41:52):
I investigate it myself.
Yeah.

John (41:54):
Damn, straight.
You investigate it yourself Becauseif they're gonna wanna plant evidence,
why in the hell the narrative?
Yeah.
Why the hell would they bringin Calumet County and say, you
guys take the lead on this?
Yeah, because to babysit is, Ibelieve the words they used, and
that's pretty much what it was.
They didn't, so Calumet definitelyled the investigation, but

(42:16):
in no time did Manitowoc.
Say, we're gonna havenothing to do with this.
It's their county.
Mm-hmm.
Of course they're gonna be involved.
And everybody on the, on the freeStephen Avery side of things,
everybody treats Manitowoc andCalumet County as though they're inner
city New York police departments.

(42:38):
Yeah.
And, and they're not.
They're tiny.
It's kinda like Wyoming.
You don't have the resources to takeover a huge investigation like this while
still taking care of your own county.
Right.
They don't have tons and tons of, ofofficers that they can commit to this.

(42:58):
They don't have a shitton of forensic analysis.
They don't have a bunch of crime scenetechnicians that they can throw at this.
They have to be able to use not onlyManitowoc County, they also brought in.
Tons of officers from the WisconsinState Police who apparently
are also in on the conspiracy.

(43:19):
Yeah, everybody is.
Then they bring in the WisconsinDCI and they're all in on the
conspiracy as well, apparently.
So there was

Angela (43:30):
a giant memo sent

John (43:31):
out to be Oh, there had to have been because you have the DNA
technician that's involved in it.
I mean, you know, if you listen to thelawyers, which I think it's bunting
that says you don't need a wholepolice force, is all you need is one
officer, maybe two, and you can do this.
I mean, it's one of thedumbest freaking things.

(43:52):
But he's a defense attorney, so.
Whatever.
I'm surprised honestly that defenseattorneys decided to go on this
rabbit hole trail with Stephen Avery.
I think the only reason they did isthey were kinda locked into it by
Stephen Avery because he'd already beentalking to the press and saying that

(44:13):
he was being framed, and so Which one?
Your legs or keep fighting or,yeah, you just keep going and I
think that's probably what happened.
I don't have a shit ton of respectfor these two freaking assholes.
Not because they defended Stephen Avery.
I firmly believe I've said it before.
I'll say it a million more times.
I believe that everybodydeserves a quality defense.

(44:37):
And I have no problem with de withdefense attorneys if they're honest.
I have no problem with defense attorneys.
The problem I have with these twoclowns is the tour they went on
after making a murderer, which youmight not know about, but I do not.
His two defense attorneys, literally,strand and Bunty and Bunning,

(45:00):
toured the country on this making aMurderer speaking tour, where they
went all over talking about thiscase becoming giant freaking social
media stars and doing all this shit.
I mean, it's total bullshit.
And they took this case and they, and theyhave done all of this stuff to get their
name out there, and that's pretty much it.

(45:22):
So I have no respect for him.
It's not like.
It's not like they took the casebecause it was the right thing to do.
It wasn't like they took thecase because here's this innocent
man that's being railroaded.
No.
He had to settle the $36 millionlawsuit for 450,000, which is probably
about all he was gonna get anyway.

(45:43):
Yeah.
So that he could pay them.
Mm-hmm.
To defend him.
So they're not working probono, they're not working outta
the goodness of their heart.
Yeah.
No.
They're working for the money.
Just like, and, and that's fine.
That's absolutely fine.
I mean, it's bread and butter, butyou have, you know, I mean, they
deserve to be paid for their workand I have no problem with that.
I have a big problem with the wholespeaking tour that they did after the

(46:07):
fact to capitalize on the fact thatmaking a Murderer was a huge success
and they wanted some of that bread.
I have a big problem with that.
Mm-hmm.
And then that's kind of where episode two.
That's kind of where it leaves off is justsetting the scene that Lincoln Colburn
are these dirty cops that are framingthis poor, innocent man who's picked on by

(46:31):
everybody, and that's kinda where it ends.
So do you want to, he wantsto get out and get married.
Yeah.
That's all he wants to do.
Get out and get marriedfor the 75th on this.
How this guy ends up with the women thathe ends up with is beyond me because he
has had like the one girlfriend that hehas, that he had after he was in prison.

(46:53):
Mm-hmm.
She's pretty attractive woman.
She was married to a cop and thengot divorced from the cop and then
was gonna marry Steven Avery andthen that whole relationship felt
the DUI one or she was in jail forthe DUI while, no, no, no, no, no.
That was his, that was hisgirlfriend during making a murder.
Okay.
After making a murder,he's sentenced to prison.

(47:15):
And then this woman.
Falls in love with him.
And he's had, he's had moregirlfriends than you can count
since he's been in prison.
Goodness sake.
All these who John Douglas would callNutcases have gone after him because
he is so freaking famous and popular.
And even this chick who, like Isaid, she's an attractive woman,

(47:36):
but she even said if they make aseason two, I'm gonna be in it.

Angela (47:42):
Oh

John (47:44):
yeah.
And then he goes nuts on her,threatens to murder her, all this shit.
And so she ends up getting rid of him too.
This is pretty much how every oneof his relationships be in it.

Angela (47:55):
'cause then she'll wanna tell her story.

John (47:56):
Well, she is in it, she's in season two.
But they, they use, they, theyframe her as a lunatic for sure.
And I'm not saying she's not,because I think you gotta be kind
of a lunatic to marry or wantto marry a convicted murderer.
End.

(48:17):
With some rare exceptions.
Like Lori went in theWest Memphis three case.
Mm-hmm.
I think that was legit.
But uh, it's rare.
It's super rare.
Most of 'em are complete nut cases that Idon't know what the hell they're thinking.
I'm, I've never understood it.
I never will understand it.
I don't pretend to understand it.

Angela (48:37):
Right.

John (48:38):
It's weird as shit.
So do we want to push throughepisode three or do we want to
end this episode here and we candiscuss three, four in the next one?
I can

Angela (48:49):
keep going.

John (48:50):
Okay.
We'll do one more episode.
So episode three kinda centers on Avery'spretrial and the media framing and.
You know, the, the, his defense teambeing put together and it, it begins
to introduce Brendan D's involvementand it casts both the, both of

(49:14):
the accused, Brendan and Steven asunder-resourced and against a very
powerful and and biased system.

Angela (49:24):
Yeah.

John (49:25):
So, you know, they definitely dive into the trial by the press
thing and you know, that reallyemphasizes the press conference
by Sheriff Payal and DA Cares 15.
Stop watching.
Now this might be one of the onlyplaces I agree with making a murder.
No, that was one of the dumbest,and I think Ken Kratz is a, Ken

(49:47):
Kratz is a total piece of shit.
I don't like the guy, I don't know,I don't know that they cover it.
In making a murder.
But he ended up, after this case,he ended up like, uh, the, a sexual
assault victim was working with himand he ends up sending her like a bunch
of dirty texts and shit like that.

(50:09):
It all comes out.
I think he's fired, his careeris destroyed and he comes out
and says, I'm a sex addict.
And, you know, the whole bullshit.
I don't like the guy.
I think he's a total piece of shit.
And this decision to have a pressconference and go over all of the

(50:29):
horrendous details of this crime,whether it, whether it was true or not
true is absolutely freaking disgusting.
And I cannot support it.
I don't agree with it.
I think it was absolutely wrong.
I think that it's a travesty that aprosecutor would do some shit like that.

(50:51):
Yep.
So you're not gonna hear me.
You know, backing up Ken Kratz for thatdumbass move because it was very stupid
and it was prejudicial, in my opinion.
It was very prejudicial.
It made it very difficult to thenget an unbiased jury in this case.

(51:12):
Yeah, I don't think there's any doubtabout that, and obviously all of
that information is gonna come out.
He didn't disclose anything that wassecret because it's gonna be in the
charging documents, which are publicrecord, so any good reporter is gonna
go be able to go dig those up and shit.

(51:32):
A lot of the time a reporter, aneditorial staff, or a newspaper or a news
agency will make a decision to tempersome of those facts and present them.
And not such a freaking gory fashion.

Angela (51:48):
Yeah.

John (51:49):
But that's up to them.

Angela (51:50):
What 15 year, 14 year old's gonna be like, oh, I'm not
15 yet, I'm gonna stop watching.
Oh, exactly.

John (51:57):
Is all that's gonna do, is it make, watch it more?
It's going to, and pretty muchensure that they watch it.
But like I was saying, any newsagency, that's their right.
They can do whateverthe hell they want to.
Yeah.
And if they want to come out and printall the gory details on the front page
of their paper or lead the nightly newswith all the go, that's up to them.

(52:19):
That's their decision.
They can make that.
The fact that a prosecutor did thatshit, I think is absolutely wrong.
So I agree that he's a dumb ass, butit definitely downplays the extent
to which the defense team alsoused the media very selectively.

(52:41):
Yeah, they ran to the pressconference like every day after court.
They went from the courtroom downto run and stand at a podium and
then tell the press everything thatthey had discovered and everything.
So they, for him it, like the prosecutiondid this terrible thing, but the defense
did exactly the same kind of bullshit.

(53:02):
Exactly.
And then, you know, it talksabout straying and, and budding
his two defense attorneys.
And it really frames 'em as beingvery thoughtful, very principled.
Yeah.
Almost heroic.
And how they carefully breakdown the problems with the
state's case and they raise this.

(53:25):
Whole thing of planting the evidenceand the contamination issues around
the, the RAV4 key and the bloodvial and the bullet, which some of
that we'll get to in later episodes.
Yeah.
But it's coming.

Angela (53:38):
The blood vial bothers me.
I'm just gonna say that outright.

John (53:42):
Well, well, we're gonna talk about that next, so.
Okay.
You know, I think that it, it really,the, the series really minimizes the
weaknesses in the defense theories.
There was really a lack of any coherentalternative suspect narrative at all.
And this idea that they say, you don'thave to believe that the Sheriff's Office

(54:07):
killed Theresa in order, how do you not.
How do you not, if you don't believethat the Sheriff's office killed
Theresa Halach, then you have tobelieve that somebody else did.

Angela (54:22):
Somebody.
Yeah.

John (54:23):
Oh no.
It gets better.
You have to believe that a girl thatSteven Avery called to come to his house
that day, coincidentally, gets murderedby a completely unrelated person.
Then you have to believe that thesheriff's office, not only the
sheriff's office, a certain deputy oror a certain deputy in the sheriff's

(54:47):
office happens to discover the bodywho is also involved in this lawsuit,
who then decides instantaneously, Iam gonna take this body this, and I am
going to use her body to frame stand.
That line of coincidences is absurd.
It cannot happen.

(55:07):
It cannot happen.
You have to believe, have to believethat the sheriff's department and
the county will see the countymurdered an innocent young girl
strictly to frame Stephen Avery.
Avery.
Yeah.
And the, the sheriff at the time said,and he got all kinds of shit for this,

(55:28):
but he's absolutely right when he said itwould be easier just to kill Steven Avery.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
He did get a lot of shit for that.
Why wouldn't you though?
He's absolutely right.
If, if this guy's gonna sue us andwe wanna make him go away and we're
willing to commit murder to do it,then make it look like an accident.

(55:51):
Just kill him.
Yeah.
Why would you, why would you kill thisinnocent girl and frame him that everybody
loved and take the chance that thejury's gonna find him not guilty when you
can just kill him and be done with it?
I think it was a very goodpoint from the sheriff.
I don't think he was talkingoutta his ass, and I, I just think

(56:13):
that it's the most logical thingfor them to have done otherwise.
Like I said, you have no options.
You have got to believe that thecounty murdered this girl strictly to
frame Stephen Avery, because if youbelieve, and how did they choose her?

(56:34):
Right?
How did they choose her?
They had to have beenmonitoring his phone calls

Angela (56:41):
Yeah.

John (56:41):
To know that she was coming to his house pictures.
So she's

Angela (56:45):
a good one.
Yeah.

John (56:46):
And although he, and they don't, they don't show this shit
in making a murderer at all.
But it's very interesting to notethat before Steven's girlfriend Jodi
was put in jail for drunk driving.
DUI.
Yeah.
He called Theresa once to come outand take a, a picture of the car.

(57:09):
And then right after Jodi goes tojail, he's calling her all the time.
I think he called her like fiveor six times before the last time.
It's very interesting how hiswoman not being there with him
completely changed his behavior.
And he starts calling Theresa Halach tocome out all the freaking time and they

(57:32):
don't really touch on the fact that.
He freaking creeped her out when he cameto the door naked with just the towel on.
And then he had like some kindof like a, like a b on his wall
with like women's shit on it, likewomen, and said, don't worry, you're

(57:53):
gonna be on there too one day.

Angela (57:55):
Oh, I did not hear that.
Of course not.

John (57:58):
And so she goes to her friends and she's like, he really creeps me out.
And her friends werelike, don't go back there.
And then, but she is aresponsible young woman.
You want her job and her jobis sending her out there.
And so she goes, but we'll get to all thatwhen we, when we get to those episodes.

(58:19):
So getting excited.
I'm getting ahead of myself, but we'llleave it there and we'll talk about.
At the very end of episode three,they indu, they introduced the
blood vial and the planted evidence.

Angela (58:34):
Yeah.

John (58:35):
And so,

Angela (58:36):
but I do, I was left with a, a big question.
Yeah.
What, and I don't know if I'm jumpingthe gun 'cause I can't remember what
episode it was, but where would allthe blood in the bedroom have been?
Because there wasn't, like, I'm,I'm still concerned about that.
The story that Brandon said.

John (58:57):
Yeah, so we'll get to that.

Angela (58:59):
We saw the blood.

John (59:00):
We'll get to that when we get to those episodes.
Okay.
Because it's not this point.
So did

Angela (59:03):
jump.

John (59:04):
Okay.
Yeah.
But this one we're talking about the bloodvial, the discovery of the old blood vial
from Avery's 1985, case that was kept inevidence and it had a punctured stopper
and the evidence, the tape had been cut.
That suggests the possibility that someoneaccessed the stored blood, planted it

(59:25):
in hall box ref for to frame him and

Angela (59:28):
corded it in random.

John (59:30):
Random places,

Angela (59:30):
patterns that couldn't have happened.

John (59:32):
I will say a hundred percent, the way that this evidence was
handled is absolutely a travesty.
It is absolutely freaking ridiculousthat this evidence was kept in the
county clerk's office, not in an evidencelocker in the county clerk's office,
and was just piled on top of each otherand it was an absolute freaking mess.

(59:58):
Difficult to get

Angela (59:59):
to.

John (01:00:00):
You gotta speak into the mic.

Angela (01:00:01):
I'm sorry.
It didn't seem that difficult to get to.

John (01:00:03):
No, I mean, it was just in the clerk's office, like
under a desk or something.
It was, I mean, it's ridiculous,

Angela (01:00:09):
but she's just using it as a footstool.
Yeah.
Right.

John (01:00:14):
Yeah.
I mean

Angela (01:00:15):
the clerk, oh yeah, that thing.
Okay.

John (01:00:17):
The clerk had actually testified that she straightened up
the evidence and stuff 'cause itwas such a mess and there was like,
I don't know, some big piece that.
Could he be, the box couldn'tbe closed, and so the boxes
were just set in their own.
I mean, it's ridiculous, no doubt aboutit, but that isn't what they focus on.
They focus on the fact that thisblood vial was punctured in the top.

Angela (01:00:41):
Yeah, which legit pissed me off.
Well, on his side, like itmade me feel bad for him.
When I first saw it, I was like, really?

John (01:00:50):
Okay.
Until you realize.
Every blood vial is punctured on the top.
That's how they get the blood in there.

Angela (01:01:00):
And I've given blood so much, I should have known that.

John (01:01:03):
Yeah.
There's like a, a sharp needlething inside the mm-hmm.
Inside the deal that theyactually put in your arm.
They, they push the, yeah.
The tube into that, which puncturesthe rubber stopper at the top and
allows blood to flow into that.
And you know why, and maybe you haven'tgotten far enough into the making a
murderer yet, but you know why theblood vial never comes up again and

(01:01:26):
it never, and never goes anywhere.
Well, the reason is, is becausephlebotomists would've come out of the
woodwork to testify that every vialof blood has a puncture in the top.

Angela (01:01:41):
So no wonder, no wonder when I texted you and said
what you were like, just wait.
Yeah,

John (01:01:50):
yeah.
Because look, I don't wanna wait.
It's absolute bullshit because, andthen, and you'll never, you really
won't hear it talked about at all.
They like set it up likeit's this big conspiracy, and
then it never goes anywhere.
It never goes anywhere with the trial.
It never goes anywhere because it wasso easy to prove that it was bullshit.

(01:02:13):
That particular one.
I gotta say, when I first watchedMaking, making a Murderer, I was
totally on board with the wholeSteven, Steven Avery got framed.
This is absolute bullshit.
I bought it Hook, line, and sinker.
I will be the first one to admit it.

Angela (01:02:27):
So you knew that I would.
And you were excited for likeall this Bullshittery that

John (01:02:32):
I was gonna a hundred percent.
100%. Because that's whatit was designed to do.
And they do a really good job at it.
But when I got to the blood vial part.
I was like, oh, this is bullshit.
I, I, this one I can't buy into.
I've seen way too many vials of blood, andof course I've worked in like a hospital

(01:02:52):
setting and shit, so I've probably seenthis more than the average person does.
Mm-hmm.
But anybody that is likegiven blood and paid attention
would know it's always there.
You can't get blood into it, intothe vial without puncturing the top.
There was nothing strange aboutthat, and so I just thought it
was absolutely dishonest forthem to, for them to present.

(01:03:16):
It.
Got

Angela (01:03:17):
really excited calling people about it.

John (01:03:20):
Oh yeah, he was on the phone.
Right.
And there is a puncture right in thetop and I'm sure very excited about it.
On the other end of that phone call, whichyou don't hear, whoever he was talking
to was probably like, yeah, dip shit.
There always is.
That's how the blood gets in there.
It's not like they pull the rubber stopperout and drain your blood into a tube,

Angela (01:03:41):
dump it in there.

John (01:03:42):
So anyway, that's the, the blood vial bullshit that they put.
And again, the evidenceI think was mishandled.
I think it was absolutely ridiculous.
Yeah.
The way it was taken care of,the blood vial thing is bullshit.
It goes nowhere.
And then, um, in episode three, they, theykind of start to introduce Brendan Dasey

(01:04:06):
and he's introduced as this cognitively.
Impaired teenager that'sbeen drawn into the case.
They start showing little clippets ofthe interrogation footage and hinting.

Angela (01:04:19):
Yeah, his full IQ is what, 72, but his conversational IQ was 69.

John (01:04:26):
Right?
Yeah.
Some shit like that.
So we know it's gonna be explored moreas we work throughout the season, but
this is really planting the littlekernels that his confession is the
product of suggestion and coercionrather than any kind of reliable
events or anything you can tell us.
Brandon, you can tell us what

Angela (01:04:47):
really happened.

John (01:04:49):
Right, and I gotta say on this one, I was 100% like Abso.
Absolutely.
This is Jesse, Ms. Kelly all over again.
This is a cognitive,cognitively impaired kid that.
That really was led into this confessionand the parts that they show you, you
know, really, and I don't remember ifit's in episode three or not, but it

(01:05:11):
will come if it's not where they say,you know, what did you do with her head?
What?
With the head?
What happened with the head?
Yeah.
And then he's like, I was cut her hair.
I'm gonna come out and say it.
Who shot her in the head?

Angela (01:05:25):
Yeah.

John (01:05:25):
And, and so they make a really big deal about that and everything.
Mm-hmm.
The problem is when you listen to all ofthe confession, it's not that clear cut.
And I have listen toall of his confessions.
It's some clever

Angela (01:05:40):
editing there.

John (01:05:42):
Oh, we haven't even gotten to the clutter of c Clever.
The dishonest editing that occurs inmaking a murder should be criminal.
I mean.
It should be freaking criminal whatthey did, but we will get there.
So, and then that's kind of where episodethree winds itself down to the end, is

(01:06:02):
planting this seed of Brendan Dossey's,coerced confession, this poor, dumb kid
that the cops railroaded into confessing,and then it kind of comes to an end.
So really across the first threeepisodes, um, it organizes the material
that kind of underscores this patternof bias and conflict of interest, and

(01:06:28):
then this potential corruption of theentire Manitowoc County system, which
really kind of invites the viewers.
Almost forces the viewers to doubtevery piece of evidence that the state
is going to bring into this case.
Like, yeah, after you finish episodethree, everything that the state does

(01:06:49):
now is questionable and you don't,you're not gonna believe it because
there are a bunch of corrupt bastards.
Exactly.
That I

Angela (01:06:56):
was like, I don't, Hmm.
Dunno what to think the whole time.
Dunno what to think.
That was my theme that night.

John (01:07:03):
Yeah.
And that's kind of how you gothrough this whole freaking thing is,

Angela (01:07:10):
but now that I know that's what they want, I'm pissed in a different way.

John (01:07:13):
Oh, when we get to the trial testimony, you are going
to be livid because it's,

Angela (01:07:19):
you're excited for it.
I can see it in your face.

John (01:07:21):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
If I had it my way, I'd go throughthe whole freaking thing right now.
But we're already over an hourin this episode and we've only
covered three episodes, so Yeah, Ibelieve there's seven more to go.
'cause I'm pretty surethat's a 10 episode.
It's a 10 episode series.
There has been a couple ofbooks written about this.
Ken Kratz wrote a book.

(01:07:42):
I haven't read it.
I don't really give ashit what he has to say.
I can't stand the guy.
Mm-hmm.
But he did write a book.
It's probably pretty interesting.
Um, bunting wrote a book also, um,because on this, something to tour with.
Well, absolutely.
Yeah.
You gotta, you gottamake your money somehow.
And so, um, and then, uh, I don'thave his name in front of me, but

(01:08:05):
the startoff, little Peckerwoodthat becomes DA's attorney.
I'm gonna have a lot tosay about him because Oh

Angela (01:08:12):
yeah.
I think

John (01:08:12):
he tries

Angela (01:08:13):
to fire him, doesn't he?

John (01:08:14):
Yes.
Yeah.
And then finally the judgedischarges him from the case because
he freaking really screws up.
I can't even believe this shit happened.
But that'll come downthe road a little bit.
So anyway, we leave this with thisidea that, and kind of the, kind
of the whole idea behind this.

(01:08:37):
Dark Dialogue Project of UnraveledTruths is this idea that we have,
that documentaries are honestand lay out the facts and let the
viewer make their own decision.
And in reality, documentariesare entertainment pieces that are

(01:08:59):
put together by biased people.
Most, not all.
I would say all.
You would say all, yeah.
Okay.
I would say all are, let you say what youwanna say are put together by a person
that has a bias one way or the other.
And right, wrong, or indifferent.
I'm not saying that all documentariesare geared towards deceiving you.

(01:09:21):
Right.
That's not the case at all.
But all documentaries, if you reallytake a look at 'em, are presented
from a particular perspective.
They don't just lay out the factsprobably because it'd be boring as shit
and nobody would actually watch them.

Angela (01:09:38):
I don't know, maybe dark dialogue should try

John (01:09:41):
maybe, but I think we'd fail because I don't think that's what viewers want.
And West Memphis three, uh, the ParadiseLost trilogy that we talked about on
the last episode, it's no different.
They had a perspective too.
Their perspective was theseboys were wrongfully accused.
I happen to agree with thatperspective, but regardless.

(01:10:01):
It was a perspective,they definitely, yeah.
Came at this at an angle and Ican't think of a single one that
doesn't now, when you go to liketrue crime, like shows, recurring
shows like forensic files or Right.
FBI files or, um, I dunno, cold case filesor apparently they all end with files.

(01:10:24):
They all, it's just files.
There's several of those that I thinktake a, a pretty unbiased approach and
just kinda lay out the facts of the case.
Mm-hmm.
And here it is.
And, and that's I think whythey can do that in like a 30
minute show for forensic files.
The original, original forensic filesat work, an hour long episode for

(01:10:45):
almost all the rest of 'em because theydon't really come at it from an angle.
They just give you the details.
When I say a documentary, yeah, I'mtalking about like a full length.
Documentary or in case of making ofa, making a Murderer or the staircase.
That's another perfect example ofthis is yeah, where they come at this

(01:11:05):
from an angle and they lay it out overhours, and in order to fill that time,
you almost have to have an angle.
One way or the other, you areeither proving this guy is guilty or
you're proving this guy's innocent.
And the the staircase is onethat definitely deserves a
place in Unraveled truce.
Have you, you've watched that one.

(01:11:26):
Oh, yep.
And so just real quickly, we're notgonna break it down or anything,
but what are your thoughts on that?
Is, is Michael, what's his nuts guilty?
Did he murder his wife or was it owls?

Angela (01:11:38):
My opinion he did or he had something to do with it.
At Le at the very least.
His hands are not clean, in my opinion.

John (01:11:48):
I have such a hard time with that one.
It's, it's so much harder than,uh, making murderers for me.
Have

Angela (01:11:55):
two wives die the same way.

John (01:11:58):
So Kathleen wasn't, I'm pretty sure it was Ka wasn't a wife wasn't a wife, it
was their like family friend or whatever.

Angela (01:12:05):
They were having an affair, supposedly.

John (01:12:08):
Yeah.
I don't know that that was ever proved.
Okay.
But I'm not taking a side.
I have a hard time with it too.
I, I, I go back and forth on that one.
Like, I don't know, may I think he didit and the blood's bad, maybe did it?
Yeah.
But didn't you have Dr. Lee thatcomes in and he's, I mean, he lays
out a pretty convincing case that.

(01:12:29):
It was from like coughing it up and shit.
But anyway, we can't rehashor we can't hash through a
whole nother freaking series.
But it, that's just an example of anotherone that I'm talking about like this.
And there's a bunch of 'em.
You know, there's the Crystal Rogers one,there's the Jennings eight one, which, you
know, I, I've talked about extensively.
I've watched it a lot.

Angela (01:12:50):
47,000

John (01:12:52):
murtaugh ones that, oh, there's Murtaugh.
For whatever reason, that assholeis like the most popular criminal
ever, and I don't get it.
Like he's just a freakingmost fucking criminal of 2025.
He's just a freaking freaking attorney.
I don't understand whyI don't understand it.

(01:13:13):
Yeah.
But anyway, yeah, that's another one.
So, but I hope that you guys haveenjoyed this episode of Unraveled Truce.
You know what I mean?
Before we go,

Angela (01:13:23):
can we just agree that the first forensic files voice.
Was amazing.
And this, the next one's not so much.

John (01:13:31):
Oh, a hundred percent.
I mean, forensic files.
The original forensic files.
Yeah.
I love it.

Angela (01:13:36):
Who is,

John (01:13:37):
I mean

Angela (01:13:37):
Guy.
'cause I would like tolisten to him all day.

John (01:13:40):
I'm pretty sure he passed away.
Damn it.
I'm almost positive that he passedaway because I think that um, that was
brought up with the forensic files too,when it came out that they would've gone
with him again, but he had passed away.
It's kinda like Robert Stackand Unsolved Mysteries.
Exactly.
And when they did the newunsolved mysteries Exactly.
He would, he had passedaway so he couldn't do it.

Angela (01:14:01):
That guy's voice though, I would almost, and this might get
some hate, I would almost put betterthan Morgan Freeman's in a narration.

John (01:14:11):
Robert Stacks or the forensic prop guy.
Forensic files

Angela (01:14:13):
guy.
Yeah.
Like it's,

John (01:14:15):
I mean, he was, how is

Angela (01:14:17):
he telling you the shittiest things?
The most vile things, but it's sosoothing to listen to his voice.

John (01:14:24):
Yeah.
I mean, he, he is so, yeah.
His name was Peter Thomas.
Yes.
And, um, he did

Angela (01:14:32):
die,

John (01:14:32):
didn't he?
Yeah, he passed away.
Um, let me see.
He passed away.
In 2016,

Angela (01:14:41):
well rest in peace.

John (01:14:42):
Yeah.
He passed away in 2016, but he was, um,

Angela (01:14:46):
when I can find the original ones, I'm a happy girl.

John (01:14:50):
Oh, they're all on, they're all on Amazon Prime.
No, and I don't know, I watch 'emwith commercials because I don't
subscribe to whatever they're on.
So you have to put up in the commercials.
Yeah, but I watch 'em, I've, I'vewatched all of the forensic files.
I couldn't even tell you how many times.
'cause.
When I was younger, that was themost exciting thing about staying

(01:15:10):
in a motel, was I could watchforensic files and FBI files.
'cause I didn't get, I didn't have cable.
So

Angela (01:15:17):
I was just about to say, when I stay in a motel now I seek
it out because it helps me sleep.

John (01:15:21):
Yeah.
I mean it was, that is, that'smy big memory of like staying
in motels when I was younger is.
Being able to watch forensic files.

Angela (01:15:30):
How funny we are.
Okay, well I'll, I'll let you close.
I got us off on a tangent again, but,

John (01:15:35):
but no, I mean, it's good.
And that's, you know, that'skind of one of the fun things
about this show, so, you know,

Angela (01:15:40):
and pay respect to, to the guy man, he did well.

John (01:15:43):
Oh, absolutely.
He had an incredible voice.
It was an awesome show andit really was groundbreaking
for the whole Oh, absolutely.
It does.
And really was groundbreaking for thiswhole era of true crime that we're in now.
When Forensic Files came out,it was kind of the trendsetter.
Yeah.
It hadn't really been done before.
You had Unsolved Mysteries, but thatwasn't really a true crime series.

(01:16:08):
Yeah.
That was didn't teach you things Well, andit was, they focused on unsolved mystery.
Yeah.
So it could be aliens, itcould be hauntings, you know?
Yeah.
It could be whatever.
Paranormal shit.
It could be crypto, just cryptozoology.
Yeah.
It could be all of thisdifferent shit where.
Forensic files was reallydedicated to, to true crime.

(01:16:30):
Right.
For the most part.
I usually skip the episodes that aren'ttrue crime, like the fires and the,
the fog and you know, that kinda stuff.
Mm-hmm.
There's a few of those episodes thataren't crime related, but not very many.
But anyway.
Um, we hope that you'veenjoyed this episode.
We hope you enjoyed these discussions.

(01:16:50):
I do think it's important to notethat, um, these are not deep dives.
We're probably gonna get shit wrongbecause we're not running off of a
script, we're just pulling out of memory.
Yeah.
We're just a couple of friendssitting down talking about true crime
documentaries and shows my memorythat we've enjoyed and, and rather
than sit here and talk without themicrophones on, we just thought, Hey,

(01:17:13):
why don't we turn the microphoneson and have these conversations?
So, you know, some of these cases,probably most of these cases, we'll find
their way into our deep dive dark dialoguemain show where Rocky Mountain Reckoning.
If they fit there, eventually they'llprobably show up somewhere where
we can really dive in and show allthe evidence and really talk about

(01:17:35):
all of the aspects of the case.
But that's not this show.
This is just us bullshittingabout something that we saw.

Angela (01:17:41):
I kind of feel like this invites people too, if we start talking about.
This before we get into the deep dive.
If people know somethingthat we don't know, yeah,

John (01:17:52):
they can reach out to em.
They can let us know.
You know, and so, but you know, I justdon't want there to be any confusion
when you know, somebody listens to thisand they're like, that's not right.
Yeah.
It's probably not right.

Angela (01:18:03):
Isn't meant to be gospel.

John (01:18:05):
Yeah.
I mean, it is just us bullshitting.
Honestly, that's really what it is.
You know, I do.
Make it a point to like watch the shitbeforehand and you do too, so that
we actually have it in our recall ofwhat happened and that kinda stuff.
But at the end of the day, I, I'm,we're just working off a memory here.
Yep.
So, but if you're

Angela (01:18:26):
entertaining,

John (01:18:27):
but that's, yeah, we're just entertaining.
We're just having fun andrecording it essentially.
So, but if you like this episode, ifyou like what we are doing here on
this, then please share the episode.
Give us a like, give us a follow.
Hit the thumbs up, hit the bell.
You know, let somebodyelse know about this.
If you think it's a lot offun, let's spread the fun.
Leave us a comment if you know

Angela (01:18:48):
something we don't.

John (01:18:49):
Yeah, comment.
You can also email us atin info dark dialogue.com.
You can find all of [e-mail], our website
where we have all of our shows showcased.
And you know, we're available everywherethat you listen to your podcast.
We're on Spotify, we're on Apple,we're on YouTube, we're on iHeart.

(01:19:11):
We're everywhere.
So, and each of our showshave their own channel.
You can either listen at the DarkDialogue Network Channel where
you can hear everything, or if youjust want to binge shadow chats or
just want to binge the main show.
They all have their own channels.
You can jump on there, you can followthose and just binge everything that
we've done on that particular platform.

(01:19:32):
With that being said, if you wantto support the show, you can do
so with like a one-time donationon coffee, that's k i.com coffee.
You can buy us a coffee there or youcould support us on Patreon and take
advantages of a lot of the additionalcontent and information on Patreon.
Or you could subscribe to oursubstack where we have all of the

(01:19:54):
deep dive information and shit.
If you're somebody that geeks out like wedo over True Crime, you can get on there
and and read all of the shit that hasled to the creating of these episodes.
And with that, if you don't have anythingelse to add, other than wishing everybody
to stay safe, and I don't know whenthis is coming up, but happy holidays.
Yeah, stay safe.

(01:20:15):
Happy holidays.
Thanks everybody for listening.

Angela (01:20:18):
Okay, love you.
Bye.