The Trial of the Incredible Hulk (1989) with Bones and DK

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Don't have 25 cents.
25 cents,
don't have 25 cents

Bones (00:15):
making money for doing

DK (00:17):
something.
Right.
You, you are known for having someincredible impersonations and voices.
Do you have a schwartzenegger?

Bones (00:24):
Uh, I would say I have like 60% of a schwartzenegger.

DK (00:30):
Okay.

Bones (00:30):
Yeah.

DK (00:31):
All right.

Bones (00:32):
Yeah.
I gotta work up to it too.
Mm-hmm.
Like any, anytime he's been on theshow, like, I've definitely been
doing Arnold like that week at home.
Oh, okay.

DK (00:41):
Yeah.
Getting ready for

Bones (00:43):
it.
Yeah.
Like when we did end of days, I wasyelling, you're a fucking quiet boy.
Like constantly.
Who wouldn't?

DK (00:49):
Yeah.
I think my favorite line is Jesus Modge.
What the fuck?

Chris (00:54):
I will say, I think Nick Nolte is the most accurate
of all of your impressions.
Like, it's, it's, it's scary if youhave seen him in the Mandalorian,
like sounds fucking exactly like him.

DK (01:06):
But wait, I would argue with you that, that maybe it's also Jesse Ventura.

Chris (01:10):
Yeah,

DK (01:11):
that would be 'cause But me is, Ventura is wild.
It's wild.
And I've seen people do good ones.
I've heard plenty of good venturas,but Bones might be my favorite.

Bones (01:22):
Well, thank you.
I, yeah, I, I think I, I havelike the Dana Carvey approach to
Ventura where like, my keywordis documents like, that's that's

DK (01:32):
your, that's your way in.

Bones (01:32):
That's the, that is the way in.
I used to call my mom and leavevoicemails, like if she didn't
answer, I would just say, I'm yourinvestigating the document she sent.
Thank you for the documentand in reference to like a
birthday card that she sent.
Um, holy shit.

Chris (01:50):
Let's get into it.
Hello everyone and welcome to DeadFormats, a movie podcast searching
for a way to tap into the hiddenpowers that all movies have.
I'm your host, Chris, and this episodewe're going to be discussing the trial
of the Incredible Hulk from 1989.
Today I'm joined by two veryspecial guests, both wanted for
murders, they didn't commit Bones.

(02:11):
Dk, welcome.
How are you doing this evening?

DK (02:16):
Well, you said Bones first, so I thought, well, he's gonna, so Bones will
say, bones will respond first becausehis name was given first, but alas,
DK here, uh, doing great, been lookingforward to this legitimately for a while.
Uh, had a rough couple weeksat work and this has been
like my fun thing to focus on.
Oh, yeah.
And I, I'm truly very excited tobe here, so, and with my buddy

(02:37):
bones, oh, it could not be better.

Bones (02:40):
Yeah, man, this feels right.
This feels right.
I got a brother out in the world, uh, DKif he says my name first and then you talk
first, it's kind of the towering inferno.
Uh, Paul Newman, who was the otherone in that, not Charlton Heston.
It's not Heston, he's an earthquake.
Oh, we can't start like this.

(03:01):
It's not McQueen, right?
Because they're, I don't know, butyou know what I'm talking about.
Like they, they came to the compromise.
That one was first, but it was lower.
Sure.
Okay.
We're, yeah.
Um, Steve McQueen, it was Steve McQueen.
Okay.
Okay.
I gotta tell you, man, thunder inParadise was a five day rentals box

(03:22):
set, and that was a, just, that wasMember Barry's that was nostalgia bomb.
Mm-hmm.
I did not watch a ton of The IncredibleHulk, but when this baby started
Yeah.
And it, and it had that CBS ooze of like a murder she wrote, I,
I thought I was five years old again.
Man.
It was,

Chris (03:43):
it's,

Bones (03:43):
yeah.
For a TV movie to be on par,honestly, like in filmmaking story,
character of what, eight episodesof a Netflix series with 10 times
the budget can't seem to do anymore.

DK (03:58):
Yeah, for sure.
It's good.
Was this your firsttime seeing this movie?

Bones (04:01):
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, so much so that, uh, when a certaincharacter was like starting to be revealed

DK (04:07):
mm-hmm.

Bones (04:08):
It didn't immediately click.

DK (04:10):
Wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's incredible.
Awesome.
Wow.

Chris (04:14):
Well, we will get into all that in due time.
Um, but for those that don'tknow, bones is one third of
the Five Day Rentals podcast.
TK is one half of NerdsGeeks in the Kitchen sink.
They've both been on this showrecently, so I'm not gonna make them
explain what their shows are about.
But, uh, if you really wanna know, just golisten to our episode on Fantasm revision

(04:35):
or just go listen to one of their shows.
Actually probably do that 'causethey are both better than this show.
Stop it.

Bones (04:43):
Stop it as No Way.

Chris (04:45):
Yeah.
As we've been alluding to our Dead format,this week is a, an a Made for TV movie.
Again, it's also a littlebit more than that.
It's also a sequel slashcontinuation to a TV show.
It's a New World Pictures production.
It's a non Disney Marvel movie.
So this trial of The Incredible Hulkis a dead format in more ways than one,

DK (05:08):
and it's a backdoor pilot to a thing that did not know it's

Chris (05:11):
indeed.
It's um, and before we talk about it,I kind of want to talk a little bit
about our respective histories withcomic books, Marvel movies, the TV show
as, as Bones was just talking about,and the Hulk character in general.
So first off, are youguys big comic book fans?
I feel like that's kind of a self-evidentquestion to ask DK based on the nature

(05:34):
of his show, but, uh, you know, what areyour feelings generally on comic books?
Are you and Big MCU guys.

DK (05:42):
Um, well, okay.
DK here again.
Hi, uh, I, listen, I have such asoft spot for this comic book stuff.
Obviously in my podcast wecover comic books quite a lot.
I like the Marvel stuff.
I'm not trying to force it on anyone.
I see the flaws, I hear all the complaintsand I understand I'm a person who really

(06:02):
wants to enjoy these adaptations ofthings that I loved As a kid, I was a
huge Marvel Comics fan as a kid and DC Ilove them both and Image Comics and Dark
Horse and goddammit, I love comic books.
I still go to the comicshop weekly if I can.
My pull list is getting longer and longer.
It's a problem.
Um, so yeah, big time comics person here.

(06:24):
I have no trouble turning on the worst ofthe worst or the best of the best when it
comes to these comics, movies, for sure.

Chris (06:32):
How about you Bones?

Bones (06:33):
Lifelong Batman fan.
That was a way I connected, uh, withmy grandfather when I was young.
He helped me collect like the, um, BatmanAnimated Series, comic book series,
like that was sort of tied in with that.
And then the Batman and RobinAdventures that came out mid to
late nineties as I started to get.

(06:54):
Into the preteen era where I think a lotof people, if you're not like already
into Spider-Man, maybe you start toshift into X-Men, the X-Men cartoon
being a great bridge for my generation.
Thanks Pizza Hut for those videotapes.
One, I, yes, I still have memoriesof going and buying just sort

(07:15):
of one-off comic books, but thenature of like accessibility and
laziness made it very difficult.
Like I had, um, the issue of likethe, uh, Phoenix Onslaught saga that
was the comic book of the aftermath.
So for years I never reallyquite understood what happened.
'cause the nature of like the littleshop at that I would go to and shop

(07:38):
at, I was lucky if they got an X-Mencomic and if they did get them,
that they weren't already sold out.
By the time I got there, therewasn't a dedicated comic book shop.
Uh, so I, I say all that to prefacethat I don't want the Stolen valor,
that I was like a lifelong nerd, comicnerd because a lot of people wanna
switch back because that's cool now.

(07:58):
But I, I appreciate a good TV movie.
I appreciate a good, like properlyserialized or contained show.
I appreciate the MCU for, it's, itsattempt at grandness to try to match
the comics in a, uh, connectiveseries, which a lot of people wanted,
but I think, I think just the natureof the business took it too far.

(08:21):
Mm-hmm.
And that's the main issue.
So, yeah, I mean, uh, DK Hass recently gotme back into, uh, quite a bit of comics.
Um, Canary.
I'm still like, that's whatI fall asleep to, which isn't
a dig on the source material.
Um, but like, uh, I'm, I'm back totrying to maybe collect, I'm getting
into the absolute Batman stuff like that.

(08:43):
Real

DK (08:43):
quick, did you read number four?
I did.
I thought it was my favorite.
Yeah.

Bones (08:47):
Did you, do you agree with that?
It is pretty good.
Uh, that dump truck'spretty damn cold, dude.

DK (08:52):
You like the dump

Bones (08:52):
truck?
I like the dump truck.
I, I was like indifferenton the dump truck.
And then when the, uh, dump truckshifted and became what it became, I
was like, okay, that's pretty cool.

DK (09:01):
I get it there.
But like on the first reveal ofthat, I was, it's on that last page
and I was like, ready to be done.
I was like, I fucking hate this, but okay.
Yes.
Anyway, I didn't meanto derail dump trucks,

Bones (09:12):
but that's, if you know what we're talking about,
you're, I think that's the thing.
I think there's, youlove it or you hate it.
And I think that's kind of what'sfascinating about it is that every
page is like, why would you do this?
And if you stick with it, Ithink you're kind of rewarded.
Absolutely.
As opposed to just, youknow, spoonfeeding it to you.
And then,

Chris (09:29):
uh, as someone who has no idea what you're talking about, it just sounds
like you were talking about transformers.
I. A dumb truck.
Interesting.
That changes Be is all, isall that registered with me,

DK (09:41):
Batman and Bumblebee together.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Finally,

Chris (09:44):
I would say my relationship with comics is probably closer to
Bones in that it was something that Iwas very into as a kid, but also like
we didn't have money to go buy them.
So like, I would also like have theissue of Web of Spider-Man where he
first gets his black suit and then thenext one I have would be like an amazing

(10:06):
Spider-Man from 15 years afterwards.
Like,

DK (10:09):
where's the cool suit?

Chris (10:10):
Yeah.
I just never, there was no continuity toanything that I read as a child, but I was
like pretty into them in my early twentieswhen I actually had money to go get them.
I'm not really anymore, and I don'tmean that in like the shitty way
of like, oh, I, I grew out of that.
It's just like I, I found time for otherthings in my life, but there was a period

(10:30):
of time where I was a big, I would'veconsidered myself a big comic book fan.
Never been a fan of the MCU.
Don't need to talk about, we don'tneed another podcast of like saying
those movies suck or whatever.
Like, no, we sure don't.
It's whatever.
But I do remember like.
I was into the mo, like, not MCU,this is like pre MCU, but like I was

(10:50):
into superhero movies when they werecoming out in the early two thousands.
And it was around the time of Rise of theSilver Surfer where I was like, fuck this.
Like, I don't care anymore.
Not because I saw like it was abad movie 'cause I never saw it.
But I was just like, you know,I've kind of had enough of this,
so I'm just going to ignoreeverything that comes afterwards.
And, you know, occasionally Iwould've a friend take me to

(11:13):
something or like pay for a ticket.
I would be like, I, I'mnot gonna like this.
Like, why are you making me watch this?
We all know how it's gonna end up.
But that has pretty much been myrelationship with comic books.
Um, as I mentioned to DK Off Air, Iwas a Big Swamp Thing fan my whole
life because for some reason I was likeone of the five people that watched

(11:35):
the animated series of Swamp Thing.
Oh hell yes.
So that's, that was my introduction to it.

DK (11:41):
Continuing the tradition of weird things that maybe shouldn't be
at adapted to children's cartoons.
Yeah.
Tales from the Crypts.
Beetlejuice, yeah.
Uh, what's another one?
Toxic Avenger.
What?

Chris (11:53):
Yep.
All of those were my shit as a child.
And even when I was like reallyinto them, I never really read
like the ongoing series like yourAmazing Spidermans because Hmm.
Just like the, it's kind of theproblem you see in the movies.
Now, if a story that goes on for solong, almost by necessity becomes

(12:14):
very convoluted, and as we have seenin the comic books with like Crisis
on Infinite Earths, you then startthis multiverse stuff and then you
sit decide, hey, it's too confusing.
Let's go back to basics.
Collapse into one timeline.
And it's, that has been kindof interesting for me to see is
just like these movies repeatingthe same mistakes that we've

(12:34):
seen in comic books for decades.
It's very

DK (12:36):
true.
It's very true.

Chris (12:38):
But uh, with the Hulk character in general, like, he's just not a
character that I ever really cared about.
I think the only Hulk I ever read wasHulk 2099, because I like all of the
2099 stuff, but it's completely divorcedfrom anything else Hulk related.
The bulk of my experience withThe Hulk comes from the TV show.

(12:59):
So were you guys, like, wouldyou consider yourself Hulk guys?
Like in general

DK (13:04):
part of the problem is that there, yeah, there was the TV
show, which I did watch as, asa kid whenever I could find it.
I did enjoy it.
There wasn't a lot of Hulk to go aroundin the nineties, you know, there was
some comics and he's always seemslike to be a side character, you know,
he doesn't get his own movie until,what, what year was the Eric Bana one?
2000, I wanna say it was

Chris (13:25):
2003, maybe three or something.

DK (13:27):
Yeah, that's, and even that, you know, I don't know if that
brought a lot of people to the Hulk.
Weirdly, I think that the Bixbygets a lot of things right
and a lot of it really works.
It's just like, it's just avictim of its era, you know?
Yeah.
I think you could do ita proper Hulk show now.
I mean, it would be pretty great.

(13:48):
And we, I think current Hulk,uh, oh God, what's his name?
Um, mark Ruffo.
Mark.
Thank you.
Ruffalo.
I think he's great as Banner.
He's fine.
I mean, I have no, I have noissue with him playing him.
So what?
Just give him a show or something.
Look at him.
Let's go.

Bones (14:04):
Come on Tony.
Sad

DK (14:07):
Hulk.
Uh, with a taco.
Oh, that's good stuff.

Bones (14:10):
Yeah.
The, when you're a kid, I mean, this is myperception when you're a kid, Hulk is cool
'cause Hulk Smash Hulk and vulnerable.
When you watch Show and Hulk only in showfor five minutes, this seemed boring.
Mm-hmm.
Hulk and Comic.
Okay, cool.
What, who this other guy?

DK (14:30):
Yeah, well, at Hulk and maybe is one of those where he, the
concept of the Hulk is so perfect.
It's so good.
But yeah, when you try to put itinto practice, you, you maybe, maybe
he should just be a side character.
I don't know.
I found some of the films and the showsto be compelling and good, but I get why
maybe it's tough to make Hulk for kids.
Don't know.
Yeah, I can see that.

(14:50):
Make it exciting all the time.
Yeah.
You just

Bones (14:52):
can't, the tragedy element is what makes it cool.
Like, as I've gotten older, I appreciatelike, you know, the thing was never
my favorite of the Fantastic Four.
As I start to get older, I realize,oh, he has the toughest time.
He's the most interesting one of them.
'Chris: cause it's a fucking curse.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(15:12):
And that's same with with Banner.
So that makes it a way moreinteresting when you're a kid
and you're like, well, Spider-Mancan take the costume on and off.
Batman is a rich guy whocan put on a costume.
That's cool.
The thing is like, stuck like that.
He's
absolutely fucked.
Yeah.

DK (15:29):
Oh, another Hulk thing that I just have to point out, um,
particularly for someone who, youknow, really became aware in the
nineties, that Marvel versus Capcom.
Mm. Having
Hulk as a playable character I think really did a lot for me,
for the Hulk to see him in actionand, you know, see how much bigger
he is than the other characters.
And he was great.
Uh, so that, that is a coolpiece of Hulk galore for me.

(15:52):
Yeah.
That's, I think, pretty key in thedevelopment of how he should look.
All the, all the basics of theHulk, they're there in Marvel versus
Capcom, uh, one-on-one fighting game.

Bones (16:01):
Yeah.
I always hated how powerfulIronman and War machine were
because they were my boys.
They were always like B Tier for me.
I wasn't too into them.

Chris (16:10):
Yeah.
That's always been the disappointingthing for me because I was like
a very big fighting game fan.
But I'm also the type of personthat like, I'm gonna use the
characters that I like or think arecool, not the ones that are good.
Yeah.
So it's like appreciate that's,I'm using some fucking team of like
Humma Gora and Venom or whatever.

(16:31):
'cause I like those characters.
Yeah.
Hell yeah.
But um, I mean for this show, likeI did watch it sporadically as a
child because the people may findthis hard to believe, but the sci-fi
channel used to be a good channel.

DK (16:47):
I'm here to tell you that is completely true.

Chris (16:49):
Yeah.
Back before they changed it to SYFY, theywould just play reruns of shit like this.
And I would catch that.
Or I saw like the 1990s CaptainAmerica movie on sci-fi.
Its where I saw Akira for the first time.
Yeah.
They would do

DK (17:04):
anime month and you would see things you couldn't believe.

Chris (17:08):
Yeah.
It was, it was amazing.
I mean, I think you may have mentionedthat you watched this before, DK.

DK (17:15):
Oh yeah, I'd seen this movie.
So I worked in a DVD store in theearly two thousands and I, I don't
know what version of the releasethis was, but we had it in stock.
This used copy of the trialof Incredible Hulk and I would
just put it on in the shop.
I was always looking for things like comicbook movies 'cause I knew they were safe.
And that's, I think really part of whyI'm so fond of them or, or continue

(17:37):
to be, because I knew they were safe.
I could put them on, there's notgonna be a lot of squaring, you
know, the violence will be whateverit is, but Oh, safe for TV anyway.
Um, so yeah, this was, this is the thing.
I've seen like a bunch of times

Chris (17:49):
you see much of the sh have you seen much of the show before this?

DK (17:52):
Yeah.
I, I, I really don't have a sense forhow complete my viewing of the show is.
I'm sure there's a bunch Ihaven't seen probably, but I have
seen many episodes of the show.
It was something, anytime it wason, I'm watching The Hulk for sure.

Bones (18:06):
I, it wasn't anything I ever sought out.
I mean, I definitelyremember those good old days.
I'm just sitting here trying toremember, what was that time?
Traveling show?
Sliders.
Sliders.
Oh, sliders.
John.
Sliders, yes.

DK (18:18):
Isn't he in that?

Bones (18:19):
Yes.
Yep.
And my, my grandfather was like sci-fi andwesterns, so it was either like, whatever,
I don't know if it was like a HallmarkWestern Channel or something at the time.
It was either that or sci-fi.
And usually I was like,push, push it over to sci-fi.
Like, let's watch that instead.
I'm, I'm almost positive I watchedlike an unedited version of

(18:40):
Ninja Scroll on sci-fi one night.
Hell yeah.
But the, the show in general, no.
Um, I mean I was familiar withlike, that his name was David
in the show because Yeah.
Of the implication of thename Bruce at the time and

Chris (18:56):
which let's, okay, so we have to talk about this.
Don't fucking get,there's two explanations.
One is they just didn't like alliterativenames, like bb even though the actor's
name is actually Bill Bixby, so theythought that sounded too cartoony.
The other is that like the name Bruceis gay, which I've heard like in other
contexts, but I do not understand at all.

(19:18):
Yeah, totally.
So I don't understand whythey're like, Bruce is gay.
We gotta name him David.

DK (19:23):
I've heard, but I have heard that multiple times from multiple places
that, that they just didn't like itbecause it was seemingly too gay.
And, um, I, I only meanthis in a good way.
I think this movie is super gay.
I think this movie is sogay and we'll talk about it.
I'll point at some things out,but I mean, it's just like, I, I

(19:44):
like to think of it as like, uh,kind of a fuck you to that exec.
Like let's make this so gay.
I don't know if it was on purpose.
Surely it's not.
But there's just so many thingsif you watch it with that lens,
and I did watch it three times andthe last time I watched it I was
like, let's just put that lens on.
I know I had some crazy theories aboutFanm that I want to apologize for.
I was just, I was in a, I was in a state.
Okay.

(20:05):
Uh, but I, I really think you canwatch this as a, as a, as a very gay
movie in, in a way that I really like.

Chris (20:12):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Sorry, I know we kind of cutyou off with the gay talk bones.
Sorry about that.

Bones (20:17):
Oh, no, I, that's, I think it's unfortunate quite honestly.
'cause I, I think if you to give intosomething gives more power to being gay
is a bad thing, if that makes sense.
Like, it's un unfortunateand I know that that's, yeah.
That was the thought at the time.
Well, it's not okay to be gay.

(20:38):
And that's, that's the bummer.
And I would hope that people could watchthis, particularly this movie, and be
like, well, the takeaway is that youmight be afraid of the monster, but
if the, if you, if it's not a monster,you should learn how to adapt into it.
I'm, I'm really trying to like,be soft about it because Yeah.

Chris (20:59):
I, I, I, I get you, I try

Bones (21:00):
to be a bleeding heart progressive, uh, part of the woke mob, you know, but.
This is a delicate topic,particularly when you're not a,
you shouldn't even be on podcasts,

Chris (21:10):
right?
I mean, I, I actually like him beinghaving a different name, so it's not
just like, oh, this is Bruce Banner Earth4 2 5, and this is Bruce Banner 6 1 6.
This one takes place in its own universe.
4 0 0 0 0 5. I know Kron is probablyvery concerned about which continuity

(21:30):
this takes place in, but you know,as I said, like not really being
a fan of him in the comic books.
When I think of The Hulk,I think of David Banner.
I don't think of Bruce Banner 'causeI haven't, I only saw the Eric
Bna and Edward Norton ones for thefirst time in preparation for this.
I had never seen them before, so, okay.

(21:52):
And I re RewatchedDaredevil, which Oh, okay.
Still sucks.

DK (21:55):
The movie, you mean the movie?
Yes,

Chris (21:57):
the Ben Af I haven't seen it since it was in theaters.
Still not good.

DK (22:00):
The Daredevil movie was the first time when I went to see one of those comic
book movies in the theater and I went,uhoh, I don't think I like this very much.
What's going on?
Am I okay?
What is, why, why wasn't this good?

Bones (22:12):
That's, that's one of those that has like a director's cut that
some people argue is actually okay.
Is the sound soundtrack

Chris (22:20):
completely different, isn't

Bones (22:22):
it?
Evanescence?

Chris (22:23):
Yeah.
Half

Bones (22:24):
of it.
You take that out, youlose, you lose everything.

Chris (22:28):
I will never forget sitting in the theater watching that movie.
And when that Wake Me Up InsideSong, like the piano intro comes in.
Yes.
My friend, we were probably like,uh, 2003, so I was, I don't know, 14.
My friend turns to me and says, thissong is about to get really good.
I'll never, never forget that

Bones (22:50):
I saw her perform that song.
I went to go see Muse like twoyears ago and I was indifferent
about going, 'cause Evan Evanescenceopened and I thought, you know what?
Wow.
I think I can time it andI'll get there in the gap.
I'll just call my Uber at a certain time.
And then it became like, I think Daneven said, well go five minutes earlier.

(23:11):
'cause you know she'sgonna close with that.
All right, all right, all right.
And I gotta tell you, lady Got pipes.
I was like, all right, thisis legitimately a good song.
I bet there was a hugereaction in the crowd in Incre.
Incredible.
Oh God, incredible.
I bet she tore that place

DK (23:26):
down.

Bones (23:27):
She, she came to the, she came back out and stood behind the monitor.
Like during, like she wasn't like onthe side of the stage, she came out with
people and was kind of in the pit by thesoundboard and stuff right before Muse.
So when she came out,people gave like another.
Round of applause and shit.
It was kind of cool.

DK (23:46):
Respect.

Bones (23:46):
Uh, hell yeah.
I worked at a movie theaterwhen Electra came out.
Also saw other theaters, whichI watched for the first time.

DK (23:52):
I watched it for the first time like two months ago.

Chris (23:55):
And maybe this is why I was so tired of superhero movies is
because I saw Daredevil and Electra in

Bones (24:01):
theaters.
That's enough to put abad taste in your mouth.
And I remember being kind of in amood about it, like I'm in my early
twenties f everything and like pissedoff because they weren't showing
like, you know, the, the David O.Russell movie that I wanted to see.
Why do I gotta work at the theaterthat's showing like, you know, has
two screenings of Elektra right now?

(24:24):
And this mom and daughter came in andthey were just so like, fucking in
our face, so excited to see Elektra.
And we were like, whatare you guys seeing?
They're like, Electra.
I was like, well, she died at theend, so this movie doesn't make sense.

Chris (24:37):
Yeah.
You know, and that, that's aperfect example of how like, at
that time the concept of the MCUhadn't congealed because they, they
introduced this character in Daredevil,killer off and then do a prequel.
Like now it's like you're gonnaintroduce something and then
juice it for all it's worth.
But it's like, it was almost likea, an afterthought back then.

(24:58):
Like, oh shit.
People liked, I, I don'teven know why they made it.
Were people clamoringfor an electro movie?
Was it

DK (25:04):
contractual?
I don't know.
Possibly.
Did they have to make it.

Bones (25:08):
Uh, uh, like, you know, Damon famously said on Hot ones,
this is the era of the DVD.
So while somebody probably did thenumbers and said, well, we probably
won't make box office with Electra,but we'll do well on DVD between nerds,
ladies and dudes that buy everything.

DK (25:25):
Well look, if you said, Hey, tonight we're watching either Daredevil
or Electra, what do you wanna watch?
I think I'd pick Electra.
Wow.
Just 'cause I've only seenit the one time and uh,

Chris (25:34):
yeah, I would too.
'cause I watched Daredevil last night.

DK (25:36):
Yeah.
He gets it.

Chris (25:40):
But yeah, I mean, in addition to just watching those two Hulk standalone
movies for the first time, I did,the reason I started watching this,
because I was looking for things thatmight be interesting to talk about.
And while I'm doing that, I,I think about who might be
interested in talking about them.
You are the, the two guys thatI know in the podcasting world

(26:01):
that even have any sort ofperipheral interest in comic books.
So I see this movie, the Trialof The Incredible Hulk, and that
just sounds so interesting to me.
But I'm also the kind of person that couldnot just like, watch a movie that happens
after all this stuff and be fine with it.
I gotta see everything that led up to it.

(26:22):
So I watched all 80 episodes ofthe TV show for the first time.
Good God.
And uh, it was great.
I have a lot of love for this TV show.
Now.
I've already had a fondness of it from mychildhood like we were talking about, but.
Not to oversell it too much, becauseI think it might be hard for a lot
of people to get into these daysbecause of how episodic it is and

(26:47):
how repetitive it can be at times.
But for me, that's all part of the charm.

DK (26:52):
I have two questions for you.
Yeah.
Number one, how long didthat take you, approximately?

Chris (26:57):
Um, not that long.
Like maybe I would say amonth and a half at the most.
Okay.
Because this is also during likethe Thanksgiving, Christmas time of
the year where I had all three time.
So you're watching

DK (27:09):
multiple episodes in a day?
Probably.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
I was

Chris (27:11):
watching like five hours of the whole TV show time.
Oh, all right.

DK (27:14):
All right.
All right.
Um, 'cause I'm planning to watch them.
My New Year's resolution was to watchthe entirety of the show this year.
Mm-hmm.
That was my new year,new Year's resolution.
But my second question is, do youthink the show is so good because,
simply because Bill Bixby kicks ass.

Chris (27:30):
Yes.
That was my main takeaway.
Um, well, him and Lou Forg, no.

DK (27:34):
Well, no.
Yeah.
Not to discount Forno at all, butI mean, just plain and simple.
If you look at the math, Bixby isthe one, he's the one on the screen.
Yeah.
He's the one carrying theemotional weight of all the stuff.

Chris (27:44):
He much like Roddy McDowell, I am so disappointed that they became
known for just one role because I thinkthey're both great actors, but they got
pigeonholed and like, you know, billBixby had done the courtship of Eddie's
father before this, and he had otherTV shows, but once he became the Hulk.
That's it.

(28:04):
Like you really can't findany starring roles for him.
And it's the same with RoddyMcDowell and Planet of the Apes.
And it's, I think it's a shame becausethey're both good actors, but at the same
time it's like, you know, that's more thanany actor could realistically hope for.
It is just like having a characterthat endures through the decades.
So, yeah.
I mean, well,

DK (28:24):
and tragically Bixby didn't live too much longer.

Chris (28:26):
Yeah.
He had a very hard life, unfortunately.

DK (28:32):
Well, this is probably a good place to, to put this, I watched a very sad,
basically, uh, a couple clips on YouTubeof him talking about his terrible cancer
and how bad it was and all this stuff.
And he looks terrible andit's just, it's just awful.
And they tell you what happenedand it's, he's already passed away.

(28:52):
Terrible, terrible, terrible.
I mean, just the worst Right.
Makes you feel terrible.
Yeah.
And then, and then, and thenit autoplayed Mr. Rogers visits
the set of the Incredible Hulk.
Have you seen it?
I have.
Oh my God.
It's like the only thing thatcould have made me feel better.

Bones (29:12):
Kind of wanna look this up right now.

DK (29:13):
I I will.
I You have to.
It's just wonderful.
And putting Fred Rogers with Bill Bixbyand you kind of, you know, it kind of
cemented something for me, is that Bixby.
I don't wanna say matches Fred Rogers,but they have this thing where there seems
like a, they're like a kinship, like aBixby has a young child and he understands

(29:36):
the make-believe talk and he understandshow you need to talk to children.
And he deeply cares about theFred Rogers thing and mm-hmm
the people who watch the show.
And it is, it is wonderful.
So I, I would recommend it.
I think it's like 15 minutes, 20minutes long and it's just yanked
out of the, out of the, uh, youknow, uh, the Mr. Rogers TV show.
But if anyone hasn't seen that,I would recommend check it out.

(30:00):
Does

Bones (30:01):
he talk to Lou at

DK (30:01):
all?
Yes, he does.
It's great.
It just warms you up.

Chris (30:05):
The whole concept of it is basically like, Hey, we're showing
Bill and Lou next to each other so kidsknow not to be afraid of the whole.

DK (30:14):
And what do you do when you get angry?
You don't flip cars over, do you?
Lou, for io?
You know what his answer is?
He goes to the gym.
Surprise.
He bet your ass.
He does.

Chris (30:24):
But yeah, I mean, I think Bill Bixby is a tremendous
dramatic actor when he gets thetime to do that in the TV shows.
And he does.
Yeah, he gets the

DK (30:34):
time.

Chris (30:34):
What's interesting to me though is that he did start off in like kind
of a sitcom, I would say his weaknessis that he is just not funny at all.
And I don't mean that as like, youknow, like, it's not like he tells
jokes and they fall flat or anything.
It's just like, you know those people inlife where like, they're really good guys.
But they're just not reallyfunny, you know, hard.

(30:57):
I can't believe I'm witnesshard, this brutal takedown

DK (30:59):
of Bill Bixby right now.
This is awful.

Chris (31:01):
I'm sorry.
Because there is a thing in one of themovies, uh, bride of the Incredible Hulk,
where, and this is just like him and hiswife, they're playful thing is to do like
a racist Chinese accent to each other.
And I think part of it isthat it just hasn't aged well.
But I'm also just like,this just like, isn't funny.

(31:24):
It's super weird.

Bones (31:26):
It's weird how that, there's no pattern to that type casting on that.
Like for one, you, you used tobe able to say, well, he was
just so good as David Banner.
It was hard for audiences tosee him and, and other things.
You know, Adam Westprobably had that issue.
Um, the, some of the JamesBond actors had that issue.

(31:48):
You know, Connery was kind ofable to kinda separate himself.
Roger Moore, unfortunately.
No way.
No, no.
And then e even now you've got, likeRobert Downey Jr. Is Tony Stark, but
he's established and can go out andwork with Nolan and get an Oscar.
Chris Evans is Captain America toaudiences, but can't seem to get

(32:10):
his teeth into something else.
So it's like he, he can'tnecessarily blame the actor.
Well, he is the human

DK (32:16):
torch.
Come on now.

Bones (32:18):
I forgot.
Hey.
It worked on me in Deadpool andWolverine did, it wasn't like, did it?
Yeah, it did.
So good.
I was like, ah, that's right.
Because I had forgotten.
So did everyone else.
That's what they were counting on.
You know, I, the, I don't know.
They should have had a HannibalKing in the background.

(32:39):
You know, I don't, Idon't disagree with you.
Let's go.

Chris (32:44):
Yeah.
I mean, I haven't seen that, so I onlyvaguely know what you're talking about.
Okay.
There's a dump truck.
I can,

DK (32:53):
I can kind of recommend Deadpool and Wolverine, if you've even seen any X-Men

Chris (32:56):
movies at

DK (32:57):
all.

Chris (32:58):
I've seen the three Fox X-Men movies that's like almost

DK (33:03):
enough for you to enjoy.
Deadpool Days of Future

Chris (33:05):
past, I think was the other one that I was drugged, tore, qualified, which
I remember qualified thinking was, okay,

DK (33:10):
yeah, you're qualified for the Deadpool three program
and I think you'll have fun.
It's, it's, it's a comedy.
I mean, you know, whatever.
It's dumb.
It's dumb as hell.
I'm not recommending you gorun out and watch it right now.
But if it presents itself, I thinkyou, you probably have a laugh.
Okay.

Bones (33:24):
Uh, uh, I, I kind of wanted to come somewhat prepared.
I didn't wanna like overstepwhat, what you wanted to
discuss, but you brought this up.
Yeah.
In your viewing of it, that like, maybe it's hard for people to
get into because of how episodic it is.
Yeah.
And I, I really miss that.
I, I'm all for, uh, when a seriessets out, like I love the reacher.

(33:49):
Series on Prime 'cause I likethe books and I respect that.
Like a novel if you really wannawork it out, six to eight episodes.
Make sense?
That works.
Yeah.
I thought enough like the another likenetwork show that did that really well was
like the first few seasons of Hannibal.
Like it was a good mix of episodic,but a continuing sort of narrative.

(34:10):
I already talked aboutthunder in paradise.
Uh, not meant as a plug, but justlike as a reference of something
from that era that I've am familiarwith was the episodic nature of it.
If I missed last week's episode mm-hmm.
I'm not screwed.
This is in the era of not beingable to revisit these unless
you caught them in syndication.
Right.

(34:31):
And that also prompted me to talkabout like, the nature of the TV movie
and what such a gamble that must havebeen in an era where people couldn't
record it and they may never see it.
Like all of this effort put into like aweekly TV movie to build up a star that
you want to keep happy on your soap opera.
Yeah.
And so just like, and this

Chris (34:51):
is seven years after the show ended.
Yeah.
So it's interesting, but I think when we hear episodic now,
we tend to like, think of it aslike, this is completely siloed.
But I think what I got while watchingthe Hulk is that like the arc isn't the
plot, the arc is the character becausethe plot is not really that important.

(35:14):
'cause what happens one weekdoesn't carry over to the next,
what is important is the character.
So we'll talk about it a little bit later.
Like David Banner does have an arcthroughout the show, and I think this kind
of is a, a good culmination of that arc.
So yeah, I mean one week he's in fuckingNew Mexico working at like a fucking

(35:36):
monster truck rally in the next, he inColorado, like doing God knows what,
but just because it's episodic doesn'tmean that there's no continuity.
So I think if you are someone who'sscared off about like, I want to
see, uh, a story unfold, like maybejust give it a chance, you know?

Bones (35:56):
Yeah.
And that's not to say like episodicstuff doesn't exist anymore.
I mean, that's your highestrated shit on CPS every night.
Like whatever in CIS or CSI or FBI.
Right.
Like I think their, 'cause their marketstill is people that are sitting in
front of a TV at eight o'clock at night.
Yep.

Chris (36:14):
I think you're totally right.
Yeah.
And I mean, even the episodicnature aside, I think a lot of
like the things that most peopleremember from the show are like,
you won't like me when I'm angry.
And of course the lonely manwalking away music said piano
music, it's so fucking good.
I mean, they're kind oflike memes at this point.

(36:35):
But you know, as we're talking aboutBill Bixby and Lou Faro, there's a
reason that this is the only successfullive action thing that Marvel did
for like 40 years of trying to do it.
Like no one gives a fuck about theSpider-Man show that was on before this.
No one could even tellyou anything about it.
But even people that have never seen thisshow might understand like, you Won't like

(37:00):
me when I'm angry, or that piano music.
So it does have like a littlebit of enduring cultural value.
And I think that's because it actuallyis just really fucking good for the time.

Bones (37:11):
I can't believe that in the era of Murder she wrote an LA
law and Matlock that like a MattMurdoch episodic solve a case beat.
Some people up wouldn't have been bought.
And I, I wonder if it's like,because this thing bumped, 'cause
it was on some random Sunday.

(37:31):
You know?
Sure.

Chris (37:32):
So I read that it had like generally positive reviews.
There are a couple knocksagainst it, which I understand
that we'll talk about in time.
'cause one of them ismy major knock with it.
But I think that it was more to do withmy expectations than the movie itself.
Right.
But I think this is also around thetime when New World was going bankrupt

(37:55):
because I think we talked about thaton your show Bones when we were talking
about pin, which is a 1988 film thatwas like their last theatrical release.
It's a puppet movie, right?
It was, yeah.
Yeah.
It was supposed to be a theatricalrelease, but New World was going bankrupt
and I think this is, that's probably ahuge reason why this backdoor pilot and
the one previous to this, which was alsoa backdoor pilot didn't get picked up is

(38:19):
because this is shortly before New Worldloses the rights to Marvel properties.

Bones (38:26):
Damn.
Yeah.
What do you think the worldwould've been different if James
Cameron got to make Spider-Man?

Chris (38:38):
Yes.

Bones (38:39):
I genuinely think that that is a, a thing in like when I think about like
the Paul Ve Hoven, uh, or Ridley ScottArnold Schwarzenegger like crusade movie
that almost got made, I think like, wow,that would've actually changed the planet.
I think a James CameronSpider-Man movie is a. Giant dv.

(39:00):
I mean, Al Gore winning in2000 is like slightly above it.

Chris (39:05):
It's been a while since I've thought about that, but to
my recollection, it was gonna beLeonardo DiCaprio and there's gonna
be a scene of like him fucking MaryJane on top of the Empire State
Building or something like that.
Hell yeah.

DK (39:19):
Because he's a man.
He is a Spider man.

Chris (39:21):
Yeah.

DK (39:22):
That's what Spider-Man do.

Chris (39:23):
Sam Ramey focused way too much on spider and not enough on man.
Mm-hmm.
Everyone knows that that is not a secret.

DK (39:30):
Every podcast in the world is talking about this and has already,

Chris (39:35):
but yeah.
It's also kind of interesting that youbrought up the, the Adam West Batman
movie, because I think part of whatmakes the, this iteration of Hulk endure
is that it's one of the few things thatI can think of prior to, you know, the
early two thousands, that's a comicbook property that's not like silly.

(39:56):
The story's actually veryserious in the TV show.
Like the Hulk's origin in the TVshow is different from the comic
books and it's really fucking sad.
He has three wives inthis show that all die.
Like it's not as much as anything wouldbe geared towards children back then.
This isn't, but I'm sure alot of children watched it.

(40:19):
But it's not silly in any way.
I mean, there's definitely some comedicmoments, especially in the first couple
of seasons where sometimes he wouldyell something as he was transforming.
And I always found that to be very funny.
There's a scene where he's in likeTimes Square and he's in a cab, and
the cab driver's pissing him off andhe yells, I need to be there by five.

(40:41):
And like that's his inflectionpoint for getting so pissed off
that he turns into the Hulk.
That was one of the thingsthat I thought that was funny.
Like it's never the actualcrime being committed.
It's like some minor inconveniencethat causes him sometimes.
Sometimes it's

DK (40:55):
like, yeah, yeah.
He holds it together really well.
And then one little thing.

Chris (41:00):
Yeah, like there's another one.
I mean, even in the opening to everyepisode, like the first time he turns
into the Hulk is because he's changinghis tire and like his grip slips.

DK (41:10):
I watched that one the other day and I laughed so hard when I realized the
first time he ever turns into the Hulkis because he needs to change a tire.

Chris (41:21):
But yeah, it's amazing.
Fucking amazing.
That's life though,

Bones (41:24):
right?
Yeah.
Yes.
Right.
I mean, I, I was talkingabout this the other day.
Like I, for the most part, I feellike I'm pretty good in a crisis.
I can clean, I zen out and I, Ican get you through something,
but god damn if I, like the forksare upside down in the dishwasher.
Uh.

(41:45):
So you can relate.
Oh, 100%.
And that's kind of whatI was trying to get to.
Like when, like, as a kid, the Hulk seemedcool, but I was, I was conscious enough
to know, like, well, he's not always theHulk and he's gotta be like this other guy
and like, deal with stuff all the time.
But now, like as I've gottenolder, like, oh, that is way

(42:07):
more human than what I Yeah.
Idolize about Batman.
Like, to an extent.
I mean, there's stillemotional stuff with that.
I mean, the, the, you know, Stan Lee,uh, or juror number six, I think,
uh, will, you know, the, the reasonSpider-Man is so famous, like, connects

(42:27):
with people because it, the problem isjust trying to be an everyday person
and balance that with being a superhero.
Yeah.
Batman's not having toworry about everyday stuff.
I think we romanticizethat in a way, right?
Yeah.
It's like why we like vampires.
Oh, they're sexy and they live forever.
That's cool.
So they don't have toworry about other stuff.

(42:50):
Yeah.
Bill Bixby is like just trying to like, get some food on his
plate, you know, like he's tryingto like get out of a ditch without,

Chris (42:59):
yeah.
Ugh.
What a bummer.
I mean, and like I said, like his.
His origin is different in the show, whichI think fundamentally like changes David
Banner as opposed to Bruce Banner in likea really important and interesting way.
'cause like comic book BruceBanner, they're doing a
testing for like a gamma bomb.
Someone's on the site, he pusheshim out of the way In the show, the

(43:22):
whole impetus for him being exposedto gamma radiation is that his wife
and him were in a car accident.
He could not get her out of the car.
And so he has so much guiltabout not being able to save her.
He starts doing research about, you know,that whole thing of like a mother who's
baby is trapped suddenly gets adrenalineand can lift anything she wants.

(43:44):
He eventually deduces that thathappens because of radiation and
overdoses himself with radiation.
And that's what causes him to becomethe Hulk, which I think is well because

DK (43:54):
they altered the machine and didn't label it right.
It's not his fault.
It's not his fault.
The, that whole firstepisode is like weirdly.
It is way more, I don't know,I guess bone said human.
It, it's, there's so much more emotionand he's so compelling and the way he,
he's just like his, as a person likeyou, you just feel he's really nailing

(44:17):
the emotional beats of all of it.
Mm-hmm.
It's, it's really, really good.
And the way they cut, like him, youknow, I have some trauma in my past
and, uh, it kind of is like that.
Like you see flashes of thingsor you just start like, you know,
he'll just, it kind of just, he'llhear the wrong thing and just go,
Hmm.
Like, you know, that's how it is.
And that movie, that first pilotdoes a really good job of that.

(44:37):
Like it sells it to me.
Anyway.

Chris (44:39):
Yeah.
No, that's really fucking good.

Bones (44:42):
Ain Lee Hulk is something with like his father doing testing.

Chris (44:47):
Yeah,

Bones (44:47):
it was, it was in him the whole time, right?
Yeah.
Something like that.

Chris (44:51):
Yeah.
It's super weird.

Bones (44:54):
I'm trying to avoid, uh, calling out who played his
father in that movie so we can

DK (44:59):
Why

Bones (45:00):
Nah, maybe later.
Do you, Joe, you don't know

DK (45:03):
him, do you?

Bones (45:04):
I'll call him.
We gotta stop down anyway.
I'm like terrified that there's abuzz through this whole hour anyway.
No, that's fine.
Right.
That's me.
But yeah,

Chris (45:12):
the, the Eric Bana one is super different.
And then I feel like the Edward Norton onewas kind of a course correction in a way.
Like they overtly referenced the TV show.
Yeah.
A lot.
Which I, I definitely keyed on, in,on having, having just watched it.
But there's like severalvery overt references.

(45:33):
The thing that they change abouthim, which is a bad choice for
the character, is that it'snot anger, it's his heart rate.
So he can't even have sex or jog.
It's like, that's just like completelyruining the character in my opinion.
I

DK (45:48):
thought you were gonna have say, have sex or jerk off.
He

Chris (45:51):
can't do that either.

DK (45:52):
He can't do anything slow stroking.
Um, I, so just very quickly to touchon that movie, I have a friend who,
in high school we sort of became veryinto movies and he graduated, went to
Hollywood, and his first job in Hollywoodwas visual effects for that Hulk movie.
Wow.
And I was so fucking jealous, but also so hyped.

(46:15):
I was so hyped for him.
I, we all got to go see his name inthe credits and it was, it was amazing.
So I, there, I have afondness for that movie.
I've seen it so many times.
Not that it's.
Incredible.
Yeah.
But again, I have a fondness.

Chris (46:28):
I mean, I didn't have a, I thought it was okay.
I, my opinion of both of those moviesprobably would've been higher if
I hadn't just watched all of this.
'cause I, it's no secret that I stronglyprefer this over anything else, Hulk.

Bones (46:42):
Sure.
That sequence leading up to theTim Roth chest kick is pretty good.

Chris (46:48):
Agree.
So, spoiler for the movie aftertrial of The Incredible Hulk is
the Death of the incredible Hulk.
Th this is one of those veryovert references in the Norton.
One that you wouldn't pick up on ifyou hadn't seen it, is that he dies
from jumping out of a helicopter.
And in the Norton one he's like, I'mgonna jump out of this helicopter.

(47:11):
Hopefully I turn into the Hulk.
And it just very much felt like a way oflike, oh, this ain't your daddy's Hulk.
Like he can jump out of helicopters and

DK (47:19):
they, they just assume that the audience has seen the death of the
incredible hu to the final TV movie.
They're all gonna get this,they're all gonna get this.
Yeah.

Chris (47:30):
Wild.
But, uh, yeah, let's finally start talkingabout the movie itself instead of just
glazing Bill Bixby for another hour.
Um, so yeah, trial of The IncredibleHulk, it is either the second
or fourth or fifth Hulk movie,depending on how you look at it.
Because of the way some of thoseTV episodes were originally aired

(47:52):
as movies and then shown as two.
Like separate episodes whenthey were shown in syndication.
But it is the second movie releasedafter the series ended in 1982.
Uh, the first being the Incredible HulkReturns, uh, trial was released the
following year in 1989 and was directed bythe man himself, bill Bixby, and written

(48:14):
by Gerald de Pego, who had not writtenanything for the Incredible Hulk prior
to this Lou Faro returns as the Hulk.
We get a couple of newcomers inRex Smith as Matt Murdoch, John
Reese Davies as Wilson Fisk, andMarta Dubois as Ellie Mendez.
I think your

Bones (48:32):
notes notes are wrong.
I think he's playing Kid Vis not

Chris (48:37):
fist.
It's so cool.
Um, but yeah, there are other peoplein this movie, but basically those
are the only ones that matter.
So,

Bones (48:47):
and I'd like to say this now while I'm thinking about it.
Trial of the, of the Incredible Hulkis an incredible name, like the Yes.
The surface level and the layerof it gives it this Greek tragedy.
Yeah, definitely.
To it.
I was like, and it didn't click for meuntil I, I watched it the second time.
Okay.
Because when I was watching it thesecond time, I thought I was, we're

(49:11):
gonna talk about like the lack thereof.
Mm-hmm.
But
it is
there, so it's almost onlythere to justify the title.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And man, this thing is fucking good.
It is.
This is really good.

Chris (49:27):
So, uh, as we were talking about way earlier before we went on a tangent
of how good Bill Bixie and the show are.
The film begins with a short montageaccompanied by a voiceover that goes
in each of us.
There lives a kind of beast made of rage.
Years ago, I used science to studythis beast to bring him out of me.

(49:50):
I used gamma radiation to release him,but I used too much, far too much.
Now the beast is out ofmy control, emerging.
Whenever anger strikes.
My name is David Banner.

(50:11):
The world thinks I'm dead.
I travel alone.
I try to keep the beastcaged within myself.
Just to immediately go on a tangent about the rest of the show, thank you.
Uh, it's something thathas always bothered me.
I mean, the voiceover for theshow is iconic, but it says.

(50:32):
He was searching for a way to tapinto hidden strengths that all humans
had, and an accidental overdoseof gamma radiation alters his body
chemistry, which, if you see the firstepisode, it's not accidental at all.
And in fact, in the opening to everyshow, they show him very calmly
dosing himself with radiation.
So, you know, it's justlike being pedantic.

(50:54):
But the wording in the voiceoverhas always bothered me, and it still
bothers me in this one because he'slike talking about how he used science
to study the beast and bring him outof him, but he like didn't know that
he was going to be become a Hulk.
He thought he was just gonna be stronger.
So, I don't know.
It, it's just, you know,nerd rage, I guess.

(51:17):
Well,

DK (51:17):
okay.
Can I just say like, the accidentpart is that he didn't know
the machine was fucked up.
Right.
So there is an accident there.
Tech, it's a technical,it's a technicality.
Yeah.

Chris (51:26):
The, the way the sentence reads it can be a, what you said
the overdose is accidental or youcan take it B like he didn't mean to
be dosed with radiation at all, so.
Right.

DK (51:38):
And I think what you mean is like his intention.

Chris (51:40):
Right.

DK (51:40):
And I totally, I totally agree with you.
So we should, I should,I should just shut up.

Chris (51:44):
No, no, I, I think we're both right.
But I think as we were talking about withlike his different origin, I think the
fact that he did intend to do this iskind of important to him as a character.

DK (51:56):
Totally.
And he has to live with it.

Bones (51:59):
Yeah, I don't, is it as powerful if his narration says
like, I goofed around and found out?

DK (52:09):
Okay.
Okay.
I, one more tangent.
I'm so sorry.
No, go at the very beginning here.
So I watched, the first time I watchedit was with my wife and, um, we,
so in that intro montage, you seehim looking at the coffin, right?
Mm-hmm.
At his own funeral, which is insane.
But, um, then it cuts to likethe, the men working in the
ditch and he's in there digging.

(52:29):
And that immediately confused.
My wife.
She thought that, she thoughtthat that was a continuation
of the scene to funeral scene.
So she's like, why are theseguys digging at the graveyard?
Like, what, it's just in a field.
What's going on?
Like, she immediately was outof place, couldn't follow it.
Uh, it, it made me laugh pretty hard.

Chris (52:46):
Yeah.
I guess, uh, another thing to point outto talk about the show yet again, is
that a huge thing of the show is that he,people think that the Hulk killed people.
Um, but that's not true.
And the whole time he is being followedby an investigative reporter named Jack
McGee, it's a huge part of the show.
This is the first thing that JackMcGee has not been in the actor.

(53:09):
He's in the previous movie.
Yeah, he's in the previous movie.
The actor is Jack Colvin.
He had cancer, I believe.
So he's not in this movie.
Um, sort of a contentiouspart of the show for me.
Like I feel like when theyuse him, it is very good.
Oftentimes he shows up within thelast three minutes of the episode.
Like I've heard there's the Hulks here andit's just kinda like completely pointless.

DK (53:33):
You guys seen any Hulks running through here?

Chris (53:36):
Yeah.
I think unfortunately this would'vebeen a great movie for him to be in
and really like, have a media role.
Yeah.
Since it's like all abouta criminal syndicate, the

DK (53:46):
investigation and everything.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely right.

Chris (53:49):
So yeah, as, as, uh, DK said, we see David working on a farm.
I don't know why he's digginga ditch, but he's doing

Bones (53:58):
it.
I will, I will say that opening shot ofthat cold, bleak, like cut down cropland
is, is more bleak than any Lars Van Trier.
Like effort.
I don't know what it's, it's not lazy.
It's just very simple and effective.
You can see it's also

DK (54:18):
what's literally it looks like for me right now.
Yeah.
I was gonna, on my way to and fromwork, I'm going past these fields
that have snow patches still.
It looks just like that.
Yeah.
I'm living the Hulk dude.

Chris (54:30):
Uh, so yeah, they're digging a ditch.
One of the other farm hands startsmessing with David and David's about to
just straight up murder this dude witha shovel, but he decides against it.
He speaks with the owner of the farmto get his pay before leaving and
she's disappointed to see him go.
She's kinda

Bones (54:47):
into him, right?

Chris (54:47):
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
So there are a lot of, like, thisfirst five minutes is almost like
a distillation of what the show is,and part of what I realized about
like when I was watching the show islike the true tragedy of his life is
that everyone wants to be his friend.
Every woman wants to fuck him, buthe's just got this, this monster inside

(55:08):
him, so he has to leave that dog.

DK (55:11):
Wait.
So another thing about thisscene, this scene drove me crazy.
This scene could never happen atmy house because she's standing
there with that door open.
The cat is gonna get out.
You can't stand there withthe door open like that.

Chris (55:23):
She's trying to heat all of British Columbia.
What's going on here?
That's too,

DK (55:27):
oh my God.
It's not realistic at all.

Chris (55:29):
But she says to him, a man, like, you could have a
future at a place like this.
If there's trouble, you can tellsomebody, somebody might understand.
You can't just keep moving on.
You gotta stop somewhere.
David says he is going to the city,slings his backpack over his shoulder
and we get that famous lonely man theme.
Beautiful haunting.

(55:50):
We see David walking into Vancouver.
I don't think they ever namethe city and the movie, but

DK (55:57):
they, they want you to think it's New York.
Yeah.
When it's, there's no wayit could ever be New York.
Hell's Kitchen a There's the thing,there's the thing way later in
the movie where they name, wherethose crime bosses come from.
Um, and they name like Detroit.
Uh, shit, what is it?
LA and Chicago.
Detroit, la Chicago.
But they don't mention New Yorkas if to say that's where we are.

(56:17):
Of course,

Chris (56:18):
yeah.
New York famously surrounded bymountains and a lake or ocean.
Oh yeah.
He strolls into what appears tobe the rougher side of town and he
rents a room at a rundown hotel.
David steps outside and looks ata tall building across the street.
The hotel owner says that before thebuilding across the street went up, he
used to get the sun all morning and hecould see the mountains from the roof.

(56:41):
Now all he is got in his faceis some rich man's tinker toy.
David does not engageat all and walks away.

Bones (56:49):
Dude just wants to talk about Tinker toys.
Yeah, seemed like a nice guy.
He was gonna paint the roomif he would stay for a while,

Chris (56:55):
you know?

Bones (56:56):
Yeah,

Chris (56:56):
well, well, so that's the thing is like when we were talking about
covering this movie beforehand, I thinkI mentioned to both of you that this is
a movie that you can watch without havingseen any of the previous Hulk material.
And while I do think that that's true,I also think that this film does benefit
from having seen it so that you can betterunderstand David Banner's arc in this one.

(57:20):
Because David at the, at thisbeginning section of the movie, is
a way different person from whatyou see in the show and even in
the movie that's right before this.
He's genuinely just like a really niceguy that wants to help people, but he can
never get close to anyone because he knowsthat eventually something's gonna happen.
He's gonna turn into the Hulk andhe is going to have to leave town.

(57:43):
But in this series, up until now,that's never stopped him from
at least trying to help people.
There's always been like a sense ofoptimism in David that by the time we get
to this movie, has been completely drainedfrom him after a decade of being the Hulk.
We see it, you know, at the verybeginning, the first sign of

(58:05):
trouble, he just leaves the farm.
This hotel manager thing is basicallythe setup for every episode of the show.
David strolls into town, insertshimself into other people's problems.
Um, but here he just doesn't give a fuck.
He just doesn't even respond to him.
He's basically completely given upbecause it's like, even though he's always

(58:29):
known this is what his life is gonna bein this movie, it seems like it's the
first time that he truly understands

DK (58:36):
that like, well, and you know, in the previous film he's like
this close to curing himself.

Chris (58:43):
Yes.
And

DK (58:43):
then just doesn't, he makes the choice to not continue that and move on and Yeah.
It's clearly affected him.

Chris (58:50):
Yeah.
And so, like Bones, having notwatched the show, I mean, I, you
would, you agree that like, it, itworks in isolation, but I think an
extra dimension of sadness is added.
If you've seen like five seasonsof the show and you see like how
nice of a guy he is before this,before we get to this point.

Bones (59:12):
I think so I was, um, I was trying to think of another example of this.
I didn't watch Firefly.
I've never seen Firefly.
So when the movie Serenity cameout, I didn't need the show.
Like I thought the movie wasconsistent and explained enough along
the way that I grasped everything.

(59:33):
And then people were like, oh, yougotta go back and watch Firefly.
It's great.
But I didn't need to, Iwatched the end of it.
So at one point I had told myself,I'm gonna go back and I'll, I'll try
to watch the movie prior to this.
If I have time, I'll watch after.
But then I thought I'd rather justwatch this in isolation to be able to
talk about it from the point of viewof, of this being my only way in.

(59:57):
And I think it's truly effective,the opening little montage.
'cause it, it still justfeels like a TV episode.
Yeah.
It
takes a little bit for it to sort of roll in and then you realize,
oh, there's a greater narrative to it.
So it makes me wonder structurally ifit was, let's just write a TV show.
Let's write 60 minutes.
Let's write this other character'sarc and how do we fold them in?

(01:00:20):
But I didn't, it it,I was saddened enough.
Yeah.
I was, I was getting the, this isa bummer because he has to leave
and this woman's being nice to him.
It, it would be far less interestingif everybody was an asshole to him.
If this hotel guy was an asshole.
If the lady was like, well, good riddance.
You're just a troublemaker.
Anyway.

(01:00:40):
So I, I think there's enough thereto see that it's, that it's tragic.

Chris (01:00:45):
We are then introduced to blind lawyer Matt Murdoch and his coworkers
Krista and Al. Matt sits next tohis office window, which directly
faces the very same building that thehotel manager was just talking about.
And Matt says that someday they'regoing to pull Fisk Tower down Brick by
Brick and Wilson Fisk along with it.

(01:01:06):
So there's probably noreason to be coy about this.
Like, if you know anythingabout Marvel comic books, like
this is Kingpin and Daredevil.

DK (01:01:15):
Yeah, this is the backdoor pilot we were talking about much earlier.
Obviously they were gonna try to doa Daredevil TV show, which why the
hell not, it would've been great.

Bones (01:01:24):
You know, froggy, isn't that foggy?
Foggy, sorry.
Froggy.
Jesus.

DK (01:01:28):
Oh, it was so, I you were so far off.
How dare you.
Dumb ass.
Uh, yeah.
Um, Karen also doesn't exist inthis, just aside the Daredevil TV
show we did eventually get, I reallylike, I think it kicks ass, so

Chris (01:01:45):
haven't seen it.

DK (01:01:47):
I honestly, it might be a good, it might be cool to see after all
that Hulk, I can definitely recommendit, like, fully recommend it.

Chris (01:01:54):
So again, to talk about, you know, differences of the TV show
and the character as he regularlyis because of like the limitations
of making the show in the seventies.
The Hulk is not like some huge likebuilding sized brick shit house.
He's a huge human.
Like Lou Reno is fucking massive, insane.

(01:02:16):
No, but so in the show he's like a streetlevel superhero, which he never is.
Just by the nature of like himbeing so massive and not having
any control over his powers.
So I think, you know, Daredevilis a very good choice to pair 'em
up with in, in this iteration.
Thor is a fucking terrible choice, whichis what they did the previous movie to.

(01:02:40):
This is a backdoor pilot for aThor show, which makes no sense.

DK (01:02:44):
It's baffling everything about that.
Totally weird.
We don't have time to talk aboutall that, but if you get a chance
to see it, it's fucking baffling.
Yeah.

Chris (01:02:52):
Uh, I don't know, like it's, the TV show is about as grounded
as a movie about a guy with gammaradiation that turns into a monster.
Can be.
So I don't know why they thoughtViking God would slot into that.
Sure.
Daredevil.
Much more appropriate.
We then see two guys walking intoa jewelry store, one of whom I will

(01:03:14):
from here on out refer to as DavidCaruso, even though it is not David
Caruso, but they walk into a jewelrystore, throw on some ear radios and
black visors, and suddenly a bunch ofcustomers in the store do the same.
This is a heist and a well orchestratedone at that, the team of th enter the
store's vault and set up some camerasthat relay a video feed to none other

(01:03:37):
than Wilson Fisk, who directs thecriminals step-by-step via headset.
And before you know it, the heist is overin millions of diamonds have been stolen.
So I'm interested Bones, since this isyour first time seeing it, what is your
reaction to John Reese Davies as kingpin?

Bones (01:03:57):
I think putting my 1989 hat on, he's a great choice of what
you've got available at the time.
I think knowing, uh, who our currentkingpin, who is incredible Drio Yeah.

DK (01:04:14):
Unbelievable.
In that show.

Bones (01:04:17):
I think if I have any issue with this, it's not in the, the casting, it's
in the giant stepdad, police OfficerOakley's and the, you know, the, the
wireless FM. Headphones that would, youknow, last about an hour and a half.

(01:04:38):
He's a dweeb on, on three aas.
You know, like we didn't havelithium batteries at this time.
I, I talk about this on the show a lot.
Like, if, if movies did one thing in theeighties and nineties, like suspension
of disbelief along with not having toreload guns, it's the life of batteries.

Chris (01:04:56):
Yeah,

Bones (01:04:57):
sure.
Um, but I, I think it's cool.
I think there's some weird, uh,the relationship with his butler
that gets a whole C plot is wild.
Like for the, this is what, 87 minutes?
It's like an hour 27, something like that.
Right?
An hour and a half.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they managed to pack inquite a bit in the latter half,

DK (01:05:21):
but yet they have time to show him giving specific commands.
Yeah.
MD draw A through F. Yeah.
Draw M draws V through X. Yeah.
Draw double D.
Oh,

Bones (01:05:32):
it's

Chris (01:05:33):
so good.

Bones (01:05:33):
I turned into the Hulk when he said double D. Dude, my heart went up.

Chris (01:05:37):
Yeah.
I mean, I. The kingpin justis not a cool character to me.
Uh, in general.

DK (01:05:43):
Well, his characterization in this is number one, pretty fucking weird.
Yeah.
Um, but number two, I would've absolutelyagreed with you forever if Donofrio had
not been the way he is and having notseen the show, you can't understand.
Yeah.
But believe me, when I tell you thathe makes Kingpin one of the best
Marvel villains there has ever been.

Chris (01:06:04):
Well, what I wanted to say is like, he's never been
cool to me until I saw this.
Alright.
Alright.
'cause if there's one way to makehim cool, like I'm very into the
late eighties, early nineties,like high-rise office aesthetic.
Yeah.
And almost in this, hissuperpower is having TVs,

DK (01:06:25):
cameras.
Yeah.
I don't really

Chris (01:06:26):
know how to explain it.
He's a

DK (01:06:27):
director.
Yeah.
The whole thing is like he's a director.

Chris (01:06:30):
Yeah.
Which is, it's like aesthetically it's allworking for me in a way that it never has.
Like nothing against Michael Clark Duncan.
I just think he was almost a noncharacter in that Daredevil movie.
So he's a

DK (01:06:43):
cartoonish version for sure.
Yeah.

Chris (01:06:45):
There's nothing really to like or dislike about him, but I've
always, I mean, Gimley gotta love him.

Bones (01:06:51):
That really was who's big bald and who's hot at the time.
Yeah.
Because he's still, he'sstill riding Green Mile.

Chris (01:07:00):
I mean, I'm shocked Batista isn't playing kingpin these days.
He's the go-to for big bald people.

Bones (01:07:07):
You know what, two years ago I would've said, I'm all for Batista Bain.
Now that he's dropped all that weight.
Batista Hugo.
Strange baby.
Dude.

DK (01:07:17):
If you just put those glasses on, throw some little glasses throw.
He is him.
Yeah.
The face is already perfect.
You don't need to do anything.

Chris (01:07:25):
Mm-hmm.
I think Steven's strange.
Let's just have a buff ass Dr. Strange.
Oh my

DK (01:07:30):
God.

Chris (01:07:31):
He doesn't need to use magic.
Let him be Dr. Mordrid.
Come on.

Bones (01:07:34):
Yeah, I got, I've come around on Benedict on Strange man.
He's, he's, when I went back andre-watched the first one, I was like,
man, he clicked in pretty damn quick.

DK (01:07:44):
Well, I liked that they're brave enough to put the gloves on him in that
one movie, at least in the Thor one.

Bones (01:07:48):
Yeah.

DK (01:07:49):
I think the gloves are a must.

Bones (01:07:52):
And that was just so they wouldn't have to do all of the, uh, the hand
makeup, tattoo and makeup and stuff.
Right.
Literal really, it was

DK (01:07:57):
just a, it was a cheat, but I think it's a huge win.
I love seeing the gloves

Chris (01:08:04):
cut to David Banner boarding a subway train filled with passengers,
including a well-dressed woman,David Caruso and another thug from
the highest, enter the subway carand begin harassing the passengers.
And tk, I feel like you might havesomething to say about this scene.

DK (01:08:19):
Well, I don't know how much we need to explain it.
Um, there's something about theway they rush into that room.
And, uh, he lets out anincredible performance that
I have available right here.
Beautiful.
Settle down.
I don't know if you can hear that.
I dunno if the came through,but he, he does the strangest.

(01:08:42):
It's like there's a, I, I don't knowwhat you call it, but it's incredible.
He's like, beautiful.
It's unbelievable.
I want that to be my text tone.

Bones (01:08:52):
He, he feels like a death wish three villain.

DK (01:08:55):
A thousand percent.
Yes.
Yeah.
I, I mean, he's pissedthat the Giggler is dead.

Chris (01:09:00):
It, it's, it's not just the red hair and the general look, but it's just
like, to me he's like, this is DavidCaruso's character in King of New York.
Just like this weird, loud mouth shithead.
Yeah,

Bones (01:09:13):
man, I hope that lady paid for double fare.
Like that hair is, that'sa whole other person.

Chris (01:09:21):
It was a different time.
It's a transitionary period.
It's 89.
We haven't really landed on what fashionis in this decade going forward, so
we still got, you know, some peopleclinging to that eighties big hair.
It was a weird time, including
the Hulk.
Yeah.

Bones (01:09:36):
Yeah.
I mean, 89, I'm thinking Vicki Vail.
Right.
I mean that informed quite a bit.
A Batman.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, those sweaterdresses, those big glasses.
I'm still riding that.

DK (01:09:50):
Yeah.
I'm just nodding and wiggling my eyebrows.
Sorry.
No, you're fine.

Bones (01:09:55):
I couldn't see you wiggling behind your big, uh, kingpin
glasses that you guys Oh, sorry.
Yeah, you didn't tell meyou guys were wearing those.
Uh,

DK (01:10:01):
should I take them off?

Chris (01:10:02):
That's fine.
Alright.
The well-dressed woman asks David Bannerto sit next to her and pretend that
they're together, but David ignores her.
David Caruso sits next toher and starts harassing her.
David Banner wants to inf interfereso bad, but he's resisting, but
he's about to walk away, but hecan't, unable to stay silent.

(01:10:22):
He finally speaks up and tells thetwo thugs to leave the woman alone.
He remains calm, trying to reasonwith them, but one of the thugs
shoves him and he goes soaring tothe opposite side of the subway car.
His pulse quickens, his eyes turn green.
A low growl escapes as hismuscles expand, his skin turns
green, his clothes rip apart.

(01:10:43):
Guys, he's transformed into theHulk, and we get our first real
glimpse of Lou Faro in this movie.
And one of the last, yeah.
Whoops.
What do we get?
Three, maybe three scenes?
Three, maybe four.
Yeah.
And so I would say the movie before thisone, return of the Incredible Hulk, I,

(01:11:07):
I think is what the title of that one.
Mm-hmm.
Is It is fucking insane.
Like watching the TV series, obviously LouReno's always been a gigantic human being.
Six, five, competed, you know, alongsidesome of the greats in bodybuilding,
whatever happened with steroid technologyand between the TV show and the movies, I

(01:11:29):
don't know, but he looks fucking insane.
Like the striations in all of his muscles.
He is actually scary asthe Hulk in these movies.
Yep.
Uh, can I ask about the beard?
What it I'm very
pro.
I think the beard shouldhave stayed the whole time.
Are you saying,
why doesn't the Hulk have a beard?

(01:11:49):
Yes.
When he transforms.
Yeah.
I did have that question myself.

DK (01:11:53):
Forget about that.

Bones (01:11:55):
I hulk with a beard.
I think it's pretty cool actually.
10% cooler.

DK (01:11:59):
I agree.

Bones (01:12:00):
Um, so I was gonna, does, does Banner ever have the, the
beard throughout the series?
No.
Does it disappear?
This is the only

Chris (01:12:06):
time he has a beard.
And you realize later on thatit's more of a, a functional
reason rather than a story choice.
Oh, really?
Well, yeah, we'll talkabout it when we get there.
But like he gets out of prisonand he shaves the beard to like,
'cause he is about to leavetown and have a new identity.
So it's kind of like the only reasonhe had it in the first place is

(01:12:28):
so that he could then later shaveit is, is what I took from it.

Bones (01:12:32):
Oh, okay.
I was based on the, the, thereal life, uh, medical issues.
I thought maybe there was a, somethingwith that, which would've been a bummer.
But,

Chris (01:12:41):
uh, no, but my, my wife did comment on that quite a few times.
She just kept saying like, helooks so weird in these movies.
And I'm like, well, you know, sixyears is a lot when you're in your late
forties, like in terms of aging, likeyou can look quite a bit different.
But I mean, he also probably at thispoint, I don't think he was diagnosed,
but he probably had cancer, so.

DK (01:13:03):
Yeah.
Yep.
Can we talk about though, is theresomeone on earth that looks better
in a flannel and jeans with no belt?

Chris (01:13:10):
No.

DK (01:13:12):
It's like part of his flesh

Chris (01:13:13):
that's part of the character arc because that, in the show he
always has a belt, but now he,he doesn't give a fuck no belt.

DK (01:13:20):
Why?
You're just gonna rip it.

Bones (01:13:22):
Yeah.
When you hulk out, it's just ashame that hair, the, the Hulk hair.
I, it's, that was my,

DK (01:13:28):
my wife's number one question.
Why is the hair like that?

Bones (01:13:31):
When, when you were talking about like the seriousness of it, like
compared to the Batman series whereit's not really goofy or intentionally
like sort of campy That hair I think is.
It is, it has a response like avisceral, like, oh, this is goofy.
Yeah.
Like that's all you're seeing

DK (01:13:47):
it, it so looks like early Hulk in the comics, but Hulk gets better looking in
the comics and they should have, I mean,even by 89, they could have fixed that.
They just, it was just likethey said, eh, we got the wig.
Right.
We don't need to get a new wig.

Chris (01:14:02):
Yeah.
It's gotta be the new world picturesof it all because the wig in the show
is better than it is in the movies.
Good God.
Here it sort of has like that choppy,like almost like hair metal haircut.
If you don't have the spray in it,like when it's, you know, Vince
Neal on a casual day or whatever, italmost has a little bit of that to it.

(01:14:23):
It, it looks bad in thesemovies I've heard of.
No defending it,

DK (01:14:27):
but an anger wig.

Chris (01:14:29):
Come on.

Bones (01:14:32):
I want to, if you didn't look this up already, I wanna see
when the last time for Rno maybecompeted in, won in Mr. Olympia.
So

Chris (01:14:41):
I think this was around the time when he started, like he was coming
back for like, whatever they're called,like the legacy or Legends competitions.

Bones (01:14:50):
Okay.

Chris (01:14:51):
Because he was old enough for that.
But he, at this point, like I thinkhis weight for those legacy or legend
competitions, like it's 300 pounds.
Okay.
And so 6 5, 300 or somewhere around there.

Bones (01:15:04):
Okay.
And 92.
That's the closest to this.
He, it was 12th in Mr. Olympia,and then in 75 he was third place.
So it's, I mean, it's crazy to thinkthat he went through the eighties
without doing it, but I mean, he's stillobviously maintained, like you said, like

Chris (01:15:24):
no, he looks way better than he does in the seventies.
Like he is so much moremuscular, so much more defined.
And it's either like the change in the,the, you know, pharmaceutical regimen
or possibly like the paint is differentso you can see his muscles better.

Bones (01:15:43):
That's fair.
I, um, one of like the, you know,really nerdy YouTube fitness channels
that I follow, you know, they do likea biweekly react thing to either like,
you know, who's the new young kid,let's react to how wrong they are.
Or let's watch whoeverand dissect their routine.

(01:16:04):
And, uh, it's on rp if anybody'sone that I'm talking about, like RP
Fitness or Renaissance periodization.
But he did a, like a reaction toLou Reno's like training videos,
like the VHS set that he made.
And he was like, oh, thisguy was on top of it.
He understood like full range of motionand like proper stuff where this guy's

(01:16:25):
reaction to Arnold at the time waslike, oh, this is all junk volume.
Could he have even been betterif he had figured stuff out?
But.
It's just one of those siit's a science in a way.
So it could have beenpharmaceutical, but it is also like
Right.
You know, Stallone deciding like, oh, I'm gonna work out with this guy.
And just having this training partnermade him look even more terrifying

(01:16:45):
and Rocky four versus, yeah.
Rocky three, you know?
Yep.
Um, so who knows?

Chris (01:16:52):
Yeah.
And I mean, his famous Hulk pose thathe does it, it's really showing off
like his better physical attributes.
Mm-hmm.
He looks fucking insane.

Bones (01:17:01):
Incredible.
He has an incredible face for it.
I think as much as the body is there,like his face sells a lot of it.

DK (01:17:08):
And they do, some of it is, they put a plate thing, it's not all his
face, it's not just makeup on his face.
There's an application thing.
Oh, okay.
So he, he does have, have the

Chris (01:17:18):
good base though.

DK (01:17:20):
A hundred percent.
I don't, and I don't know if that,what the purpose of that is, just to
maybe accent his animal, you know,whatever monster monstery look.
Yeah.
But, uh, he, they, he does havelike a, a, an application thing
that goes in the top half.

Chris (01:17:33):
I think it's just like out of, you know, courtesy to him to not be like,
Hey, you look like a fucking monster.
We don't need to do anything to your face.

Bones (01:17:43):
That's fair.
That's fair.
Dude's a freak.
I wonder if the wigs glued to that.
I wonder if at the time, you know,like maybe that's part of it as well.
It's like we can, to minimizethe application time.
I.

DK (01:17:56):
Yeah, I just watched this and I can't remember it.
They'll tell you the answer to that.
It's actually in the,um, the Mr. Rogers thing.
Uh, Mr. McFeeley, uh, videotaped it foryou and they watch it together in Mr.
Rogers living room.
Okay.
Speed delivery.

Chris (01:18:12):
Yeah.
Um, passengers scream and run for coveras the Hulk lets out a thunderous roar.
He quickly dispatches one of the thugs,but David Caruso points a gun at him.
Just as David Caruso is about to shootthe Hulk, the well-dressed woman kicks
David Caruso's hand, which inadvertentlycauses him to shoot and kill an old man

(01:18:33):
standing outside on the subway platform.
Isn't it

DK (01:18:35):
wild?

Chris (01:18:36):
Yeah.

DK (01:18:38):
You almost have to double take and be like, wait, did he just shoot that guy?
They breeze by it.
It's crazy.
Yeah.

Chris (01:18:44):
Like you find out later he is dead.
But here it's just like he could havebeen shot in the leg or whatever,
but it's like no, they just,this dude just fucking got shot.

DK (01:18:52):
There was no reason for them to murder him, but they did it.

Chris (01:18:55):
The Hulk throws David Caruso through a window of the subway car.

Bones (01:18:59):
I've heard of the trolley problem, but a subway problem.

Chris (01:19:03):
It's, that's how you solve it.
Yeah.
You just fucking throw everyone out.
Hulk bursts out and disappearsinto the subway tunnel.
Soon after Banner wakes up in thesubway tunnels, shivering, covered
in sweat, his clothes torn to shreds.
It's happened again.
He's confused and exhausted.
He's spotted by a couple policeofficers who take him into custody

(01:19:25):
and David is too weakened to resistor to offer up an explanation.
Uh, the next morning, David, who is usingthe alias, David Belson, which is also a
great thing from the TV show, is that hi,his alias is always David Surname B, and
yet no one can ever fucking figure it out.

(01:19:48):
Weird.
This guy that was a waiter herefor two weeks in the same town,
the Hulk smashed everything up.
His name was David Blanchard, andthen next week and then town over.
The same thing happens to David Baxter.
It's like really stretchesthe credulity of the show.
But again, sure, you know,that's the episodic nature of it.

(01:20:09):
Or Jack McGee is just the dumbestinvestigative reporter of all time.

Bones (01:20:13):
It's gotta help with the lie.
Right.
The maintaining of the lie.
Like he, so he can just initialthings db or if he has a
signature that's like mm-hmm.
Big D, David, big B,and squiggle, you know?
Yeah.
He's not ever having to stress.

DK (01:20:30):
I'm sure that's the reason.
Yes.
So his signature will pass.
You're right.

Chris (01:20:35):
And maybe this is just me, but when I watched the show, like part of the
feeling I got is like, man, I wish, likewhy didn't I grow up in this time where
you can just like decide, oh, I'm DavidBelson now, and go get a job for that.
Pays like decent money for room andboard repairing pinball machines even

(01:20:57):
though you have no experience doing it.
Hello?
Yeah.
It was a better time to live.
I think

Bones (01:21:02):
I bitched to my wife constantly that I think civilization sort
of peaked mid eighties becauseI was trying to decide like air
conditioning is massive, right?
But has the science of air conditioningreally gotten so much better?
It was like we had airconditioning late, late eighties.
That was pretty damn good.

(01:21:23):
We had telephones and we hadearly like networking systems.
Not quite internet level, but enoughlike to ease file management and shit.
And I, I really think like a lot of thejust societal problems we have probably
come from an ease of information, right?
And a need to stay sototally connected, but.

(01:21:44):
It used to just be like a group of kidscould go to a place and sit and hang out
and now you can't do that 'cause you'reloitering or you're gonna shoot a TikTok
video and annoy everybody around you.
You know, like there is something tothat eighties nostalgia that I think
people are kind of subconsciously tappinginto of like, it's simpler, but it's
not so simple that it's medieval time.

(01:22:07):
Yeah.
Where you're struggling to survive.
Like, we can produce food andwe have a, like a base level of
medicine to keep people alive.
So kind of that argument of, youknow, they say like, you know, once
you reach like $90,000, statisticallyyou're not any happier past that.

(01:22:27):
I, I think that for like88, well, let's say 89.
So we get Tim Burton Batman.
Yeah.
And try all of the incredible holethey go hand in hand and last crusade.

Chris (01:22:38):
Yeah.
That's, that's interesting that this, Ididn't even clock that this came out the
same year as Batman and like, just howdifferent they feel like this feels like
it came out 15 years before that movie.
Uh, next morning he, he gets a visitfrom, uh, Matt Murdoch in jail.
Matt explains to David that hebelieves he knows who the two men on

(01:23:00):
the subway were, and he also believesthat they're part of a gang of thieves
and murderers run by Wilson Fisk.
David recounts his side of what wentdown on the subway that Matt tells him
that the woman from the subway, EllieMendez, told police that David was
the one who attacked her and that theother two men were trying to help her.
Matt says that he can tell when peopleare lying a compensation for his

(01:23:23):
blindness and that he believes David.

DK (01:23:27):
That's pretty good.
It, it really touches on someof the basics of the daredevil
thing without going too overboard.
I mean, yeah, that's, that's one of thecool there's it, there's quite a few
little things where they're giving you alot of interesting daredevil lore and like
tidbits about his abilities or whatever.
They do a good job with that.
I think

Chris (01:23:44):
I also found it like kind of interesting, I don't know if like
the Ben Affleck movie was referencingthis or if it's just like a common
theme within Daredevil stuff.
Is that like the introductionto the character?
Is them just like putting on clothesand like doing daily tasks as a
blind person to show how they live?

(01:24:06):
Sure.

DK (01:24:07):
That's a good question.
I'm not sure.
I mean, you definitely get thata little bit in the TV show, but

Chris (01:24:12):
yeah, I don't know.
Matt visits Ellie at the hospitaland tries to suss out why she's
lying, but she's very cagey aboutit and she maintains that David
Banner attacked her on the subwayon his way out of the hospital.
Murdoch overhears, Ellie'sattending nurse on the phone using
his heightened sense of hearing.
The nurse tells Fisk's Butler Edgarthat she thinks Ellie might tell

(01:24:33):
the police what really happened andFisk orders the woman to be killed.

Bones (01:24:38):
Uh, the, the sound design of her pa like palming, that card
that he leaves was really good.
Like the amplification of likehow he heard like the, like up it.
Uh, I was impressed by that.
And then, uh, immediately upset by theold woman that's trying to help Matt
onto the elevator who's a little bitpushy like, here, let me help you.

(01:25:02):
Uh, I don't think that would fly if Iwere to help a woman with such intensity.

Chris (01:25:08):
Yes, I think, I think the rule is would you like help not let me help
you and then push you into an elevator?

DK (01:25:17):
Well, I guess maybe, maybe she was in on it and the
nurse was like, get that guy.
Yeah.
She's not of Fisk agents.

Bones (01:25:23):
Uh, this old lady probably only has two speeds, like, you
know, every day and all out.

Chris (01:25:30):
Yeah.
Later that night, the nurseenters Ellie's room as she sleeps.
She's about to give Ellie a lethalinjection when a massed crusader springs
into action from behind the curtains andtrips the nurse, which causes her to be
electrocuted by some medical equipment.

DK (01:25:46):
Absolutely.
Wild.
Yeah.
Well, and I, if you watch theother Hulk movie, the previous one,
the same thing happens to Banner.
He dives into an electrical box.
That's right.
Forgot about that.
And get stabbed in exact same way.

Bones (01:25:58):
So that's the theme.
I think this woman held herown pretty well against Yes.
Martial artist.

DK (01:26:06):
And also she would've just, like, if she would've just been like, oh
no, this crazy guy's attacking me.
Like no one would've knownshe was trying to kill anyone.
Yeah.
She was just doing nurse shit.

Chris (01:26:15):
As a group of nurses in orderlies enter the room to see
what the ruckus is all about, themass hero jumps out the window.
One of the nurses looks out the windowinto the night sky and whispers.
Dear Devil.
Pretty cool.
Hell yeah.
So in this, Daredevil has a, what Iwould say is a very shitty costume.
Um, it's all black.

(01:26:37):
And Stan Lee did not like it becausehe felt like the costume betrays
the fact that Daredevil is blind.
Which I kind of understand.
Um, I don't, I think it could haveworked except for the fact that later on
throughout the movie, he's just constantlymaking jokes about how he's blind.
He's given it away.
Yeah, he's dressed up as daredevil.

DK (01:27:00):
It's a loud knife you have there, buddy.

Bones (01:27:03):
Alright.
He, at one point he even sayslike, I can't see anything.

Chris (01:27:06):
Yeah.
He's just, it's a stepaway from I'm blind shit.
Talking your mask

Bones (01:27:11):
or what, what does he, what does he mean by betray him as being blind?
Like,

Chris (01:27:17):
like he didn't, he feels like since this costume is all black and
it just has, has like a visor overhis eyes, it makes it obvious that
he's blind, that criminals would beable to tell that this person's blind.
And then very shortly after that,connect the dots that it's Matt Murdoch.

DK (01:27:33):
Oh, okay.
Okay.
But I have to say, I, I've always beena fan of this suit and they do this
same suit in the, the modern show.
It's a, it's a, it's a knownsuit of his, it's just, it

Chris (01:27:43):
originates here, believe it or not.

DK (01:27:46):
Oh, that's amazing.

Chris (01:27:47):
Yeah.
So the, I didn't know

DK (01:27:48):
that I, 'cause I've seen it's in the comics.
I mean, he, they, they do this,they do this suit, and again,
they do that at almost exactsuit in the new, the modern show.

Chris (01:27:56):
I could see how a, a newer show might pull it off better, but in this,
it's just like spandex with, you know,like street hockey pads on his knees.
There's a

DK (01:28:05):
closeup where you can definitely see it.
Yeah, if you know what I mean.
Oh really?
I didn't catch that.
It's when he is dealingwith Turk in the alley.
I'll, there's a shot from, have togo back from down up and you, you
can just, you can kind of see it.
Not that I was looking.

Chris (01:28:20):
Is it a, a compensation as well?
You got a little bit, you can your own.
Going down there.
Back at Fisk Tower, Edgar informsFisk that Daredevil has foiled
the plot to kill Ellie Mendez.
Fisk quickly formulates a plotto use this to his advantage.
He will have Ellie Mendez kidnapped tobe used as bait to lure in Daredevil.

(01:28:44):
Then he will kill Daredevil capturedon video and show the video to his
cadre of crime bosses in order to provethat he should be the boss of bosses.
It's a perfect plan, except as Edgarpoints out there is another witness
to what happened on the subway andFisk orders Edgar to have David Banner
killed while he is locked up in prison.

(01:29:07):
So, you know, consistent with the comicbooks, he's, he's planning shit out.
Sure.
Ellie calls Matt and tells himthat she's ready to tell the truth.
She only lied because Fisk's Goonsthreatened to kill her parents.
But Fisk's organization has eyes andears all over the city and one of his
goons posing as a police officer kidnapsEllie and takes her to Fisk Tower.

Bones (01:29:30):
So something on the second watch that I didn't catch on the first
was when Matt first arrives to thehospital room and the nurse says, Hey,
there's a lawyer here, Matt Murdoch,that Ellie sort of, she whispers
like, it's not the other men, is it?
Like I didn't catch that to connectit because at this point I was still
like, when Matt's first still meetswith David and he says he makes the

(01:29:53):
claim that she's stating that he did it.
I thought I missed something.
I hadn't really connected that,you know, she was getting, uh,
you know, sweated over this deal.
Yeah.
But
his good hearing lets himhear it all the way across

DK (01:30:07):
the room.
Yeah.

Bones (01:30:09):
It's a no no.
Duh moment.
Sorry.
No, it's

DK (01:30:12):
fine.
Easy to miss, I think.
Yeah.
I mean this, are you sayingthis is a subtle piece of film?
It's layered.
This is this, it's a layered, subtle,quite layered subtle adult entertainment.

Bones (01:30:22):
There is one thing that's, I don't know if it's, it constitutes
subtle or I'm just an idiot, butthere's a little sequence coming up
later that I, I need some assistance'cause even on second watch.

Chris (01:30:33):
Okay.
Wasn't

Bones (01:30:34):
quite sure.

Chris (01:30:35):
Just chime in as in when we get to it.
Sure.
Okay.
Back at the prison.
Matt and Krista meet with David and tryto convince him that he must stand trial.
David says he can't.
It's dangerous, it's impossible.
He changes.
Matt tells him that he has no choice.
Cut to David taking thewitness stand in a courtroom.

(01:30:55):
The prosecuting attorney, the judge,and even Matt and Krista are all
yelling at David to answer a question.
David can't take it.
And he hulks the fuck out in thecourtroom, he hurls a piece of
the witness stand across the room.
A bailiff tries to subdue theHulk with a blow from his baton.
And the Hulk hurs him across the room too.

(01:31:15):
Someone in the jury box throws thechair and the Hulk upends the whole
box with all 12 jury members inside it.
Another bailiff Pepper sprays the Hulk.
And for that, he too must be tossed.
The Hulk punches a cop out awindow before turning his rage
towards the prosecuting attorney.
And just as the Hulk is aboutto choke the life out of the

(01:31:36):
lawyer, David wakes up in prison.
It was all incredible dream.
Incredible,

DK (01:31:40):
incredible.
Wow.
So good.
What a good description.

Chris (01:31:44):
It's great, but two things.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
Well,

DK (01:31:47):
okay, so this, the scene right before this, when he's
in the, he's in the jail cell.
Um, there's this zoom in on his cell fromoutside the cell and there are some dice.
Did you, does anyone catch up,catch up on this or mustard?
Yes.
Did anyone catch this?
Uh, there's a greendice and a red dice die.
Yes.
Uh, do you think those are supposedto represent Daredevil and Hulk?

(01:32:11):
I do now.
Yeah.
Oh my God, this is a subtle piece of film.
Most people won't get it.
I think

Chris (01:32:17):
so.
Only true Hulk head's onestands only true holsters.

DK (01:32:20):
Yeah.
But the, the, the whole five minutesof the trial is, is maybe the most
fun thing that happens in the movie.
It's so good.
It's a, it's a hugepayoff that it's very fun.
I don't know if there's enough Hulk.
I mean, there's definitely not enough Hulkin this movie, but I mean, the Hulk you
do get particularly here is fantastic.

Chris (01:32:38):
So, I mentioned earlier that I had some problems with it that were possibly
just because of my own expectations.
This is my main problem with thismovie is that, you know, as Bone said,
you can take the trial to be layered.
I thought this was literally going tobe a courtroom drama about The Hulk,
which sounds infinitely more interestingto me than what this movie actually is.

(01:33:03):
Don't get me wrong, I do reallylike it, but I would've much
rather seen a courtroom dramaabout the Hulk, which we don't get.
'cause this is the only scenethat takes place in a court.

DK (01:33:15):
Yeah, that could have been very interesting in a different way for sure.
But yeah, they, it's almost like,like I said earlier, like they had
the title and they're like, well,shit, I guess we have to do a trial.
But like, how's that gonna happen?
There's no way.
Make it a dream sequence.
That'll be fine.

Chris (01:33:27):
Well, I mean, it makes perfect sense for the character.
And especially if you can get, ifJack Colvin could have appeared in
this, this would've been the perfecttime for him to have a bigger part.
But it makes sense for the arc of thischaracter in that he's been on the
run for 10 years, at 11 years at thispoint, because he's under suspicion

(01:33:49):
for a murder that he didn't commit.
It would've been very interesting togive, you know, bill Bixby this, he
could have had all of these dramaticparts recounting his life and like how
shitty everything's been, but, okay.

DK (01:34:02):
But I've been, I've just been watching it, a lot of full moon
movies and, you know, a lot of thosemovies just give you, here's what
happened in the previous thing.
Here's 20 minutes of the last movie.
Do you want that in this?
I mean, I feel like it could haveeasily turned into a clip thing.

Chris (01:34:15):
It easily could have, but I

DK (01:34:17):
feel like the audience is like, we've already seen this.
Why are we, why are youcovering this big fell finale

Chris (01:34:21):
as the director and like this obviously capable rider?
I don't think it would've turnedinto that if they went that route.
Alright.

Bones (01:34:31):
Maybe I, I have to wonder, was there anything in your research, like, was
was the title, did they start with that?
Did they come, was it likethe people versus the Hulk?
I. And then while they werewriting it, they figured out like,
well, there's this trial scene.
What about the trial of like keepingthe, the format of the return of

(01:34:52):
the credible Hulk, the trial oflike, 'cause I, I do agree with you.
I think there's aninteresting thing in there.
Like that's the, that's yourlatter half of a two-parter.
Yeah.
And then leads into the second part, which is more of the backdoor pilot.
Like if this was, if this was donecloser to the actual series and this

(01:35:14):
is how you ended it and you wantedto kind of, all right, we're gonna
slide off Hulk and go into Daredevil.
Um, but modern stuff does this now, like,you know, Batman v Superman, you don't go
into that thinking like, oh, the, the endof that movie will just be them fighting.
No, that's more in the two thirdsmark because they have to come
together and fight a real bad person.

(01:35:37):
Like audiences aren't gonna, like,civil War is somehow really, that's
one of the reasons I do think itworks, is it gives you that payoff
of, oh, they're all gonna fight

DK (01:35:46):
and they really do it.
Yeah.

Bones (01:35:47):
And they really do fight.
And then even at the end ag with thebig badge, you think, oh, this is done.
And then no, they're the true civil waris, you know, those two going at it.
Well, it's a two V one I guess, but
Yeah.
Uh, I, I, I don't mind it.
I can see, 'cause I was alsoconfused when you sent it to me.

(01:36:08):
This is what we're watching.
I thought that it was more of a, oh,this is just like a stretched out trial.
That's what we were going to getwhen it, when you get past this.
I was sort of happy with it.
I was like, I kinda, I kind ofwanna see the Daredevil stuff now.
So

DK (01:36:26):
at the end of the day, it's like, are you really upset that
it wasn't a whole courtroom thing?
Maybe.
I mean, I am, it would've beeninteresting, but I personally
am I'm talking to myselfin the, in the mirror now.
Please let me podcast to myself shut up.
Uh, I just think, uh, I I, I probablywould've made the decision to not do that.
Although if they could've gotten thatcharacter to come back, and maybe that

(01:36:48):
was the plan and they just couldn't do it.
They had to come up with some other way.
And like you said, that's just what it is.
So,

Chris (01:36:53):
yeah.
I, I mean, I guess it's just me.
Uh, one, one movie I love is, uh, it'sAlive Three Island of the Alive, which
is start off with a court scene of them.
Oh yeah.
Debating what they're gonnado with mutant Babies.
And that's my favorite scene of themovie because I think that that's, it's
interesting to take something that isso, uh, to use the, the one definition

(01:37:15):
of the word incredible, unbelievable.
And treat it seriously and like kind ofgo through like what are the implications
of like, we have to prosecute thisguy, but he has no control over it in a
way that he can't be held accountable.
I think that's interesting,but maybe you guys are right.
Maybe an hour and a half ofthat would not be interesting.

DK (01:37:37):
Well, I mean, later they just shoot him into space.
So.
Spoilers for Marvel,

Bones (01:37:41):
it's possible to do a, a courtroom drama and you are sort of
fleshing the story out, like Rmanstyle about an incident, right?
Sure.
Of course, course it could work.
Yes.
And I spoilers,

Chris (01:37:57):
there's a rman episode of the TV show.
You know, there has to be.

Bones (01:38:02):
Wow.
The Hulk did it first.
Hulk did it all baby.
That's not

Chris (01:38:05):
how I remember it.
Sorry.
You were, you were, youwere saying something Bones.

Bones (01:38:12):
No, no, I think I, I, we, I think you guys understood what I was
saying, like it's, you open with that.
He's just sitting there as the defendant.
Multiple people come up and they'retelling a story and that's how you
sort of, you flash back to whateverthing snapped him and you get, you
know, variations on a, on a sequencecould be kind of, kind of cool.

(01:38:34):
So

Chris (01:38:35):
yes, I don't disagree.
I join me on my new podcast, thetrial of the trial of the Incredible
Hulk, where we really get to thebottom of this and just workshop
it and really just get it shining.
'cause I think there is episodesomething there every episode.
Um, but yeah, banner wakes up in acold sweat in prison, but the stress

(01:38:56):
caused from his vivid nightmaretriggers a real transformation.
This is something that happens a lotin the first two seasons of the show.
Hulk smashes through his jail celland crashes through the prison
walls, escaping into the night.
Later that night.
Daredevil tracks banner down to the hotelhe checked into when he got into town,

(01:39:18):
and this is where he's shaving his beardbecause he's about to lamb it again.
Which I think is a shame becauseBill Bixby wears a beard really well.
I think he looks pretty fucking cool.

DK (01:39:28):
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say earlier.
I almost think he looks a little bit like,uh, like, uh, old man Logan, like, uh,
the whole, uh, Hugh Jackman, like whenhe has the beard and stuff, like there's
this, he could almost play Wolverine.

Chris (01:39:41):
Yeah.
It's interesting you say thatbecause the younger version of him
that's in the show, like Bill Bixbyis a classically handsome guy.
He is.
In those early episodes, he'sthe exact midpoint between Hugh
Jackman and Clint Eastwood.
Like dude's a lookershould had a better career.

(01:40:01):
Daredevil reveals to David thathe is in fact, Matt Murdoch.
Matt takes David to his house and revealshis backstory to David as a child.
He was blinded by radioactive chemicalsand as a result, all of his senses
were heightened to supernatural levels.
Uh, he can see using a kind of sonarhe has due to his enhanced hearing.

(01:40:24):
His sense of touch is so sensitivethat he can read handwriting
through gloves just by touching it.

DK (01:40:31):
That made me laugh out loud.
Yeah, that was

Chris (01:40:33):
like, that brought up a lot of other questions about his sex life,
which we may not have time to go into,but I was like, that's, that's insane.

DK (01:40:41):
Well, in some of the dialogue in this scene in particular, back to my
theory that they may be romancing,he says, I could make you come.
And he says, I'll give you something andthen you'll come with me on your own.
I'll give you something andyou'll come with me on your own.
And then he says, whatcould you possibly give me?
And then they kind of look at each other.

Chris (01:40:59):
I also just saying in this section, I do like a lot of the, the
sort of playful, I'm the Hulk linesfrom David Banner, or I think Dar
Devil says something along the lines,like, as you said, I can make you come.
And he's like, that's not a good idea.
Or, don't make me horny.

DK (01:41:17):
You

Chris (01:41:17):
wouldn't like me when I'm

DK (01:41:18):
horny.

Chris (01:41:19):
Later on, when he is like talking about getting radioactive
ooze in his eyes, he is like, youdon't know anything about radiation.
He's like, actually I do kindof my field of expertise guy.
He's been vaulted.
Uh, Matt Murdoch says he is trainedfor years to become a crime fighter
and has been working with DeputyChief Elli to take down Fisk.

(01:41:41):
He asked David to helphim rescue Ellie Mendez.
David refuses, but says that hewill help Matt track down the two
thugs from the subway and just thenMatt receives a call from Elli.
Fisk is holding Ellie at an oldmovie studio known as the Web.
David says that he'll go alongto help Matt rescue Ellie,
but Matt proceeds on his own.

(01:42:01):
So this was kind of like, I, I feellike it's not a, a greatly written
scene because David's just flipflops three or four times within
the matter of a minute and a half.
But I

Bones (01:42:12):
don't know.
Is is it during this explanation,like his, of his backstory, the, the,
the dump that we get the flashbackto the, uh, press conference?
Mm-hmm.
Is this where your question is?
Yeah.
No, not quite.
Oh, okay.
Um, this is where I thought itwas gonna be, but, but I did
love the, just the blatant, what,what's this, uh, officer's name?

(01:42:35):
Elli.
Elli.
Tinelli.
Like when he's just like, I, Idon't know, it's just gonna take
some sort of guy on his own.
I some daredevil to goout there, like maybe a

DK (01:42:43):
daredevil could do some damage.

Bones (01:42:44):
Yeah.
That's like me now, like at a pressconference saying like, I, the only
way we're gonna get like our healthcareas a human right is, I don't know,
some sort of Luigi out here to, I, Idon't know, do something about this.
Like, the directness ofit is almost comical.

Chris (01:43:02):
I thought he was, I thought for sure I anticipated vigilante
and then when he literally just saysDaredevil, I couldn't help but laugh.

DK (01:43:10):
Well, and the other thing is too, in that other part of it,
uh, when he is telling the storyabout meeting Elli, he, he's like,
oh, and then I went to meet him.
He jumps out, Elli almost draws his gun,and then he just daredevil grins at him.
And then Elli just like, does like a nod.
Like, I get this and I approve.
Yeah.
But there is not a wordspoken between them.

(01:43:33):
Incredible.

Chris (01:43:35):
Yeah.
I don't know if this is a characterfrom the comic books or if this is
just trying to do like a Batman.
I didn't, I could have donewithout the Elli subplot.
Not that it's bad, it's just like wecould have had more Hulk instead of that.
Mm-hmm.
That's true as David waits forMatt to return 10 deli calls

(01:43:57):
again and says that it's a trap.
Fisk will be waiting forMatt at the movie studio.
David has no choice but to head to thestudio and try to help Matt at the studio.
Matt is confronted by Fisk and his men.
Fisk is able to disable Daredevil byblasting sound through giant speakers.
Just as Daredevil seems to be defeated.
David arrives and transforms into the Hulk

Bones (01:44:19):
fucking the Fisk standing there in all black, almost silhouette with
his headgear and everything on it.
It cycles past corny too.
Cool again?
Yes.
Hell yes.
Several times.

DK (01:44:35):
I have a couple's amazing that I have to go back.
I have to go back just very quickly.
Number one banner throws Murdoch as somekind of a sphere when they're in his
apartment, in his house, and I mm-hmm.
Just, I think that probablyis from when, uh, Matt Murdoch
had to battle the Tall man.
I'm sure it's related to that.
Um, but no, um, in that sceneit's like they're, like I
said, they're falling in love.

(01:44:56):
Murdoch has a line where hesays, why are you so alone?
And he says, we're both alone.
Right.
I love that.
But when Daredevil leaves and heis running across the rooftops,
very obviously, like everyonein the neighborhood sees this,
clearly he's casting a shadow.
Everyone sees this.
He's jumping, flipping.
It looks very like the comic.
The, a lot of the poses are right.

(01:45:17):
Although I think that his movements area little weird except that it's suburban

Chris (01:45:18):
Vancouver.

DK (01:45:20):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Um, so we were watching, I was watchingthis with my wife and he does this
like flip into a dive and it does aweird cut where it cuts straight to
the bar and it's Turk immediatelygoing, everybody drinks are on me.
And it's almost as if Daredeviljumped off a roof, landed in
a bar and started screaming.
Yeah,

(01:45:40):
I love it.
I had to bring that up.
Sorry.

Bones (01:45:43):
Did you guys notice like when he is running on those rooftops of
Vancouver that like in the background youcould see Jason punch a guy's head off?
Hell yeah.
He's doing it.
He's

DK (01:45:52):
taking it.

Chris (01:45:54):
The Hulk quickly defeats fisk's men destroying the
loudspeakers in the process.
Unfortunately, Fisk's goons runoff with Ellie before the Hulk
has the chance to rescue her.
Matt comes to and places his handson the Hulk's face as he is reverting
back to his David Banner form.
David, let me take a photo.
David, poor soul, he says,

DK (01:46:14):
yeah, that was earlier bones.
Let me take your photo.
Yeah, yeah.
The way he saves them like adansel, dansel in distress.
They are in love.

Chris (01:46:24):
I'm starting to believe you.

DK (01:46:26):
It's, I'm, I'm serious.
It's

Bones (01:46:27):
not

DK (01:46:27):
one of

Bones (01:46:27):
my weird theories.
I've become obsessed with this.
I say obsessed, but uh,this fantasy writer.
I don't know his name.
He's been doing some, it's beenpopped up in my YouTube feed.
He's a real prevalent guy,like more so than, uh, Martin.
I think he teaches at BYU and he'sbeen doing like some, uh, like he

(01:46:50):
specifically teaches like this crashcourse, how to write high fantasy stuff.
And I think just with me lookingup story structure and whatever it,
it, the algorithm pushed him to me.
So I've been kind of following him.
And in one of the last things that hewas talking about, he mentioned like
the similarity between the romantic,the comedy or romantic drama and the

(01:47:13):
buddy cop like this, you have to lay outthese structures sort of the same way.
And you talking about this now, it'slike, well, it's so fucking obvious, but
I wonder if maybe that's the structure.
Is that sort of the key when you'retrying to write, you know, opposing
foes that should come together iswrite it as though it's a romantic

(01:47:34):
relationship and then just replace that.

DK (01:47:38):
So Hot Fuzz totally does the same thing between the Nick
Frost and Simon Peg characters.

Bones (01:47:44):
100%.
Yeah.
Great call.

DK (01:47:46):
Good point Bones.
Really good point.

Chris (01:47:49):
I did You poor soul.
I'm just laughing because the next smallsection of the movie is even gayer, but

DK (01:47:56):
it's, and I, please don't get me wrong, I love it.
But that's the thing though,

Chris (01:48:00):
it's like why is every, anytime like.
Men that are friends in amovie like, oh, they're gay.
Like, why does it, I get what you'resaying, but at the same time, like, why
do we have to, they're just friends.
Like they have a deeperunderstanding because I,

DK (01:48:14):
I truly, I tell you, it it the way that Banner and Bixby plays him,
he's so tender and he's so sweet.
That's him and he's so caring.
That's him, baby.
But it just comes off as he, himreally wanting to kiss on Daredevil.
That's,

Chris (01:48:29):
that's the old David coming back.
He's, he's, you know, Murdoch is breakingdown his hardened shell and he is
saying, like, I, I do care about people.
Sure I do have a connection tothe world, but they're also gay.
Matt is incapacitated after hisconfrontation with Fisk's men, but
luckily he has his wet nurse, Dr.David Banner, to take care of him.

(01:48:51):
Thank you.
Elli calls Matt again and leaves a messagesaying that Fisk is planning on gathering
all the crime bosses back at Fisk Tower.
Fisk is frustrated that he failed tokill Daredevil, but he instructs Edgar
to edit the video of the fight betweenhis goons and Daredevil to make it appear
as though he's been killed so that hecan present it to the other crime bosses

(01:49:13):
and still become a super crime boss.
I want

Bones (01:49:18):
this on the big screen.

Chris (01:49:22):
So John re Davies is a weird actor for me, like.
I, I like him a lot, but I, I guessmaybe just the movies I watch him in.
To me he's like a, like a JohnCarradine or a Cameron Mitchell.
Like I, he's just like someone whowill be in literally everything.
But then on the other hand, likehe was in Lord of the Rings, which

(01:49:43):
are like these Presti movies.
So, and Indiana Jones.
I haven't seen it.
Maybe that's why I think he's likesome random character director.

DK (01:49:54):
Uh, well 'cause he is good.
I think he can be good.
Uh, but sometimes he venturesinto like Donald Pleasant's.
Uh, yeah, that's

Chris (01:50:01):
another good example.

DK (01:50:03):
I think Pleasant could have played, could have played Fisk in this.
Yeah, that would've been
fun.
You don't know what the network is.
I dunno.
Tell me, are you an actor?
That,
that would be that what rule?

Chris (01:50:18):
Yeah, he was still alive.
Yeah.
He could have been in this.
I

DK (01:50:20):
shot it from six angles

Chris (01:50:25):
back at Matt's house.
Uh, David is doing his damnedest toconvince Matt that he must dawn the
Daredevil costume and rescue Ellie.
He says that he must not forget the giftthat he's been given, like David forgot
and that he can't just turn his back on.
Ellie, Matt is convinced andhe and David Head to tower.

DK (01:50:44):
I do like the.
The use of Daredevil here for this andthat he is the reason I almost wish
that, that it was more clear or thatthey spent a little bit more time on.
The fact that he's finding himselfBanner, I should say mm-hmm.
Is finding himself again because ofthe way he basically through Daredevil,
you know, I, I really do like that.
Um, I think that really works.

(01:51:05):
And I, I just wish it wasmaybe a little bit more clear.
He straight up says it, but I just don't,I don't feel like I don't see it enough.

Chris (01:51:11):
Yeah.
Maybe you don't feel it.
You're being told it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

Bones (01:51:15):
Well, and it's awesome that you get, because of the, the way
it's structured where you come inwith Daredevil at his story already,
they're still able to sort of puta refusal of the call in there.
And it's way more interestingbe that David's already, he's on
refusal of the call before then,and it's sort of a quick catch up.

(01:51:39):
So if you want to continue a series afterthis, you've already sort of solidified
that Daredevil is 100% committed andmoving on, like, it, it would've,
you wouldn't want to write it wherethey were both, ah, this sucks, huh?
Yeah.
Yeah.
This sucks.
Like, there's nobody in the surroundlike, support system to, to boost,

(01:52:01):
like, they don't have an Alfredor anything to boost them back.
Um, so I, I just, I, I just really, interms of backdoor pilots, not that I'm an
expert, I think this is pretty well done.
To launch you.
So shut up.
Help me to the gym.

DK (01:52:19):
It's awesome.

Bones (01:52:20):
Yeah.

Chris (01:52:21):
Uh, yeah, I think that actually is, my other major problem
with this is that I kind of don'tlike it being a backdoor pilot.
And I think part of that is becausethe one before this was also a backdoor
pilot, and Thor and Daredevil arecharacters that I don't care about.
So there is a feeling for mewhere it's like, I, like, instead

(01:52:42):
of doing backdoor pilots, can wejust have a fucking Hulk movie?
Can we do that?
People sure.
Like, especially because neitherof those shows ever got made.
Like nothing was ever done with those.
So in hindsight, it's, it definitelyfeels like every minute that we devote
to Matt Murdoch is, we could have hadLou Faro in there doing Hulk stuff.

DK (01:53:03):
I think that's fair.
I I personally really do, I'ma, I'm a Daredevil fan, so I
liked the Daryl stuff, although Ithink he could have been better.
I don't think he's perfect forthe role, but he, whatever he is.
Okay.
Um, so I don't, I don't think of it aslike a waste or whatever, but, but I also
lament the fact that we could not get 15more minutes, 10 more minutes of ri no.
Come on.

Chris (01:53:24):
And, I mean, the backdoor pilot thing also sort of affects the ending
of this one, which we'll get to shortly.
And I feel like the, the relationshipthat Matt had with Krista had
this not been a, a backdoor pilot,could have been developed further.
But obviously they want that,wanted to leave that as like, will
they, won't they for the TV show?

(01:53:46):
Yeah, sure.

DK (01:53:47):
Oh, really quickly, I want to go back.
Yeah.
Just very quickly, the scene with themap and the ruler on the map tool.

Bones (01:53:53):
This is my question.
Oh,

DK (01:53:54):
okay.

Bones (01:53:55):
What, explain this to me please.
Does he just need toknow where he is unseen?

DK (01:54:00):
It's because the guy, it's 'cause the guy he said it, it's
from the, it's from the note.
It's from, uh, it's from when Banner said,oh, it's in the shadow of that building.

Chris (01:54:08):
Mm-hmm.

DK (01:54:08):
He just needs to know where the shadow falls.
Yes.

Chris (01:54:10):
And Okay.
It bones so you don't feel dumb.
Sorry.
I watched this three times andit took me the third time Okay.
To get this because I, the first two timesI thought it was like, this is where I'm
going to do my rounds tonight so that Iknow like when the sun's coming up and
I need to get outta this neighborhood.
Like that's the way I took it.

(01:54:30):
That

Bones (01:54:30):
that's okay.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for lying andmaking me feel okay.
'cause I know I'm, you're still smart.
I know you

Chris (01:54:36):
got it, but Yes, it is what DK said, it's hard.
I mean, it's easy to miss because.
Tho, those two things are sort oflike separated in time that you're
not necessarily thinking about.
Oh, he said, I'm staying at thishotel in the shadow of Fisk Tower.

DK (01:54:53):
Well, and also even in the scene when it's happening,
it's, he doesn't explain it.
He literally hangs up.

Bones (01:54:58):
Yeah.

DK (01:54:58):
Right.
And then

Bones (01:54:59):
it cuts to him talking to the Turk.

DK (01:55:02):
Yeah.

Bones (01:55:02):
In the shadow.
So I thought 'cause he knows, yeah.
Oh, he knows where to look.
Yeah.
I was like, oh, thisis like during the day.
But the building cast such a shadow.
It appears night.

DK (01:55:11):
My question is though, how realistic is that?
He's like, put it to where thesun would be at eight o'clock.
How the fuck would he know?
How the fuck would he be able to be sure?

Bones (01:55:20):
Well, this guy's a military man, right?
I don't know.
That's true, man.
Yeah.

DK (01:55:23):
The, the size of the flashlights, the size of the, I, I don't know.
Distance.

Chris (01:55:27):
Yeah.
Mean there's lot of variables.

DK (01:55:29):
I was screaming at the TV because I didn't understand, I understood that why
he was doing it, but I was like, there'sno way you'd get a real answer to that.
Right.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Maybe I'm wrong,

Chris (01:55:38):
but I mean, once I understood it, well, even before I understood
it, I was like, oh, that's cool.
The concept is cool and maybeit's real and I'm just too dumb to

DK (01:55:46):
get it.
I don't know.

Chris (01:55:49):
Fisk is holding a reception for the other crime bosses in his
office at the top of Fisk Tower.
As this is happening, David entersthe tower on the ground floor and
Matt uses a suction cup grappler tobreak into one of the upper floors.
That's a pl dude.
He'll love, he'll love

Bones (01:56:03):
it.

Chris (01:56:04):
For some reason, they just immediately meet up on
a different floor and, uh,

DK (01:56:09):
why couldn't they both go the same way?

Chris (01:56:11):
I don't know.

Bones (01:56:14):
He can't go in dressed as daredevil.

DK (01:56:17):
Why not?
But you think they'll just let Bixby in?

Bones (01:56:19):
Well, they, they show it, they show him just like nonchalantly kind of.
Oh, that's true.

DK (01:56:22):
You're

Bones (01:56:22):
right.
Walk by.
Okay.
And it, I think he's like, well, I already got my shit on, so I
gotta, I gotta come in from the top.
Like, yeah, I guess that makes sense.
I mean, if, if you're, and it'sjust a cool little action scene.
I mean, it would've been funnyif he was like, all right, take
your, take your fucking mask off.
Here's my flannel, you know,and then walked in together.

Chris (01:56:46):
Um, yeah.
So they meet up, they squeeze oneof Fisk's goons for information.
Uh, once they reach thetop floor, they split up.
Matt goes to stop Fisk andDavid goes to rescue Ellie.
Matt dispatches some ofFisk's goons in a hallway.

Bones (01:57:01):
The yell that this woman makes is incredible.
If, if you have the means to put thataudio file in in here somewhere, I'll,
that was one of those where I justhit, you know, back 15 several
times because it was so funny.

DK (01:57:23):
There's a few things like that on this for sure.
I also love the little, I love whenthe Fisk says an octopus cannot only
be legs, gentlemen, what the fuck?

Chris (01:57:32):
I'm, I'm always saying this.

Bones (01:57:34):
Well, and, uh, dk you, you independently sent me a, a little clip
of, uh, big speed kicking the gun.
It's out of the way when theysqueezed the dude into the elevator.
Yep.
Pretty good.
Yeah.
But you guys, you guys aren't big on Rex.

Chris (01:57:51):
Uh, Matt Murdoch.

Bones (01:57:53):
Yeah.

Chris (01:57:53):
I think he's super lame.

DK (01:57:56):
I don't love him.
I think it could have been worse.
I think he gets some of thestuff right, but I don't know.
For me, I think I'm,

Chris (01:58:05):
it's the equipping, it's the shitty costume because as we were
talking about earlier, all of his quipsare references to him being blind,
which is part of his secret identity.
So I agree with that.
That's stupid.
Yeah.
Um, I think the costume is dumb.
I know that like, especially there'sone scene where I'm gonna stand up
and show you guys this because it hasto be like, doing this motion to put

(01:58:27):
your baton back in your, your bootis not like cool looking where it's
like he just stops and does that.
It's super lame.
Um, and I guess probably a lot of it hasto do with like, me just not wanting him
to be in the movie in the first place.

Bones (01:58:42):
Yeah.

Chris (01:58:42):
All of that being said, like, I don't think the actor did a bad job.
I think it's just a shitty costumeand some, some cheesy lines.
Really

Bones (01:58:51):
scrolling through his filmography today, I came across a short-lived
series that he was in called Street Hawk.

Chris (01:58:57):
That was what he was best known for.

Bones (01:58:59):
Okay.
Did you mention that already?

Chris (01:59:00):
No.

Bones (01:59:01):
Okay.
Sometimes on these like two and ahalf hour records, I, I like, I get
to the point where I stop bringingstuff up because I'm conscious
of, well, did he bring that uptwo hours ago or is it in my head?
Because I looked that up eight hours ago.

Chris (01:59:17):
Yeah.
Um, I mean, I, I take it you look,you like Rex Smith as Matt Murdoch.

Bones (01:59:24):
I he's very of the time.
Yeah.
Which is very comforting in a way.
Um, any flaw in like the writing,I can kind of separate from him.
Like at one point when you werelisting your stuff off, I was like,
those aren't digs against Rex andthen you did the, the baton stash.
And I was like, well, okay.
You could've, you could've donesomething a little cooler, but that's

Chris (01:59:45):
not his fault either.
I, my, my thing with that wouldbe just don't show him doing that.
'cause there is no cool way to do that.

Bones (01:59:52):
Um, and just like Draf, no, Charlie is so fucking perfect, dude.
I mean, he's, he, he is liketop five marvel casting.

DK (02:00:03):
I think yeah, the, the, the thing that makes the Jared ever show so good.
Not to go back to it too much,but like Donofrio incredible.
He's just as good as Cox is.
I mean, they're, yeah.
Together, they are so good.
They work so well together.
Jesus Christ.
I love that show so much.
I've, I don't watch a lot of TVperiod, but I've rewatched that
show a couple times, really like it.

(02:00:25):
And good action for a TV show.
The action.

Bones (02:00:27):
Yeah.

DK (02:00:28):
Is there better as far as like stunt combat?

Bones (02:00:32):
No, I mean, there's some shit in Reacher that I really like.
Sure.
But I think I'm just bringinglike, just that element to it.
Um, no, I mean, it, it is thebest action in any Marvel thing.
I would argue.

DK (02:00:45):
I'll just like occasionally watch the hallway fight from season two.
Yeah.
Just if I'm having a bad day, I'mjust like, oh, let me see this.
There's a scene when theguy's like, sir, are you okay?
And he like, has the chain onhis hand and he whips the light
and he is like, yeah, I'm good.
Oh my God.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.

Bones (02:01:01):
Well, uh, uh, Chris, just to try to sell it a little bit,
one of the incredible things aboutthe action of it is, uh, they make
him superhuman with the senses,but they don't make him superhuman.
It's kind of the John Wickthing that he, he gets tired in.
Mm-hmm.
In the action sequences, they areable to basically convey, like,
this would be fucking exhausting.

(02:01:22):
The average person after a fewpunches would be absolutely whooped.
Right.
And, and they do.
A Jackie Chan level of like, guys arestill trying to fight, but they don't
have energy and he's able to just sortof like nonchalantly push over one guy.
He's already punched 18 times and the waythat they will go in and out of doors and

(02:01:43):
fall over each other is very underrated.
Where it's not not and he

DK (02:01:48):
gets the shit kicked out of

Bones (02:01:49):
it.
Yeah.
It's awesome.

Chris (02:01:51):
Sounds cool.
I won't watch it.

Bones (02:01:55):
I mean it, you couldn't find five minutes to watch that on YouTube?

Chris (02:01:59):
No.

Bones (02:02:00):
Okay.
What if I send you one clip?

Chris (02:02:02):
Maybe.

DK (02:02:03):
Okay.
Alright.
That's all I'm gonna

Chris (02:02:05):
ask.
I, I think it's, I did watch a wholetwo hour Ben Affleck daredevil.
I think it's only fair that I give theactual good daredevil a fair chance.
I appreciate that.
But I guess, I mean, how do youguys feel about his portrayal
of like his sonar in this?
I, I mean, it, it's just myaesthetic, so I think it's cool.

(02:02:26):
But how did you guys take it?

DK (02:02:28):
It makes sense until they show it.
Like, it, it makes senseuntil they show his vision.
He, he unscrew a light bulb,but then like gets darker, but
that shouldn't matter to him.
You know what I mean?
So like, immediately Iwas like, what the fuck?
Like, if they were to justtalk, I mean, I think they did a
pretty good job showing it to us.
You know, he explains it.
It is, it's like, it's enough.
He catches the ball.
He can read the writing,he can feel the face.

(02:02:50):
It's all, it's all there.
It's fine.

Bones (02:02:52):
Is it like the buzz of the light bulb?
Like that?
It would no longer be makinglike a very minute hum.
I guess that makes sense because that

Chris (02:03:00):
60 hertz hum from electricity.
But then if that's the case,there's wires running throughout
the walls of every building.
So Yeah, he would

Bones (02:03:09):
be, he would be knocked out walking down the street.

Chris (02:03:13):
Yeah.
I mean, I like it.
It's a hard thing to really portray inmovies 'cause it's not real and it's a
delicate balance of like, he's supposedto be blind, but then like he, he
actually has better sight than all of us.
So like, it's a net, like completely anet positive with no negatives is kind of

(02:03:35):
what it's like in the Ben Affleck movie.
It's like, it, it's, it's difficult.

Bones (02:03:40):
It's a weird thing to confirm too, because it's not like a blind
person can watch it and tell you, oh,that's a good representation of what
it is like to be blunt, you know?
Yeah.
Like even these people that have stated or, and it's, it's true.
Like the other senses do compensatenot daredevil level, mutant level.
But, um, it, it's a weird thing that weare sort of allowed to just like, eh,

(02:04:05):
we're gonna kind of put our own littlestank on it of what it would look like.

Chris (02:04:10):
Yeah.
I mean, that's kind of why, like Idon't buy the whole David Banner, you
know, Matt Murdoch, we are the same.
It's because Matt has in this has,there's no drawback to anything.
Like he's a successful lawyer thatbasically can see and fights crime.
Like it's just because theywe're both caused by radiation.

(02:04:32):
Yeah.
Like David Banner's, afflictionfucking sucks for him.
Yeah, that's

Bones (02:04:38):
true.
And Murdoch, Murdochhas a drive for justice.
It's more of a power responsibilitything with, with Bixby though, right?
Particularly at the end of this,like, I have this gift, I should do
something with It shown me this now.

Chris (02:04:55):
Yeah.
I mean, there's a small section, butwe'll go ahead and skip to that because
it is one thing I wanted to talk about.
I, I didn't really like that,of like, you've taught me that I
can use my power to do science.
It just didn't land with me.
Like knowing everything.
Like the, the whole thing is that hecan't do that because he's the Hulk.

(02:05:19):
Anything he tries to do, as we sawin the movie right before this will
be foiled because he's the Hulk.
Like for him there is no like,conscious decision he can make that
will better his situation, whichis the tragedy of the character.
So I, it just, that wholething doesn't land for me.
Like I. I'll use science.

(02:05:41):
That's my gift to the world.
It's like, well, until you turninto the Hulk again, which is what
has happened for the last 10 years.

DK (02:05:49):
I mean, I think you make a good point.
It's true.
That's definitely true.
Uh, but yeah, I don't know.
I just don't think about it too much.

Chris (02:05:57):
Uh, yeah, that's like, why, you know, bones, when you're talking about
like the rejecting the call, it's like,I feel like that's true for Daredevil,
but with the Hulk, it's like, not a call.
Like, it's not something he can step upto because he has no control over it.
So that, that really makes this,like, that very ending scene
like ring really weird to me.

DK (02:06:21):
Well, I guess it's like him knowing that it's not gonna go good,
but still trying to help, I guess.
I guess that's, that's your answer.

Chris (02:06:29):
Yeah.
I guess that's true.
Just at least going back to whatpreviously was the status quo of
like, yeah, this is gonna happen,but I'm not going to live my life
and just despair because of it.

Bones (02:06:40):
Is there a happy medium where it is like, you know, your drive is
to fight for justice in this city?
My drive is that I like myburden is that I must hitchhike.
You know, like I, I can go forwardnow with a little bit of insight
thanks to you, but I can't, Ican't say stagnant, you know?

(02:07:02):
Does that just feel like a copout where let's say for example,
you go into this and you go, howdo we end this as satisfying as
we can if we don't get picked up?
Right.
Like, well, at least the happy ending islike, he, he puts on a smile for him and
we're brothers and I'll see you later.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a tricky thi I mean, and, but, and you end on the hitchhike, so

(02:07:24):
you're just right back into the cycle.
So what are you just, is he justtelling him this, is it all bullshit
and we're misinterpreting it?

Chris (02:07:33):
I don't think so.
I think it's just, uh, poorwriting, not poor, but just like,

Bones (02:07:39):
it's just a TV movie from 1989.

Chris (02:07:41):
Yeah.
And written by someone who had neverwritten any of the shows or Right.
Any of the other movies.
So may not have, you know, theydidn't have like the DVD box set
of the incredible Hulk for himto review before writing this.
So I don't, it's, you know, maybe nota problem for other people, but it's
just a little nerd nitpicky thing.

(02:08:02):
I, I just, the best thing I

DK (02:08:04):
can give you is that he does say like, well, you know, I'm gonna use the gifts
that I have, something along these lines.
Like, I'm gonna use the things that Ihave, the science and the medical stuff
to try to actually do something good.
You know, uh, you can do your law and youcan do your fighting in the streets, but
I, I should focus on trying to do good nomatter how hard it is for me personally.
Maybe they just could have said it better.

(02:08:25):
Yeah.

Bones (02:08:25):
Yeah.
I think

DK (02:08:26):
it's as simple as like some better dialogue there.

Chris (02:08:29):
Uh, I mean, just watching it, it's, it very much felt like you're out
there and I'm out there and who knows?
Our TV shows might cross over someday.
Yeah, yeah,

Bones (02:08:39):
yeah.
And, and maybe if Jack McGee isa character in this, a reason is
like, I'm still an outlaw dude.
Like, I, I, I'm still like on therunt, there's still how, there's
still 80 episodes of shit mm-hmm.
That I'm running away from, you know?
Yeah.
It's the Sam Elliot one last ride, you know, of,

Chris (02:09:04):
uh, well anyway, before we get to that part, that's,
that's like the very end.
Um, the movie wraps up very briskly.
Uh, Matt fights the goons in the hallway.
Ellie's about to bekilled by David Caruso.
But David Ban Banner rescues her withthe help of Fisk's assistant Edgar, who
over the course, course of her, likeimprisonment, Edgar's taken a shining to

(02:09:28):
Ellie and doesn't want to see her killed.

Bones (02:09:30):
I don't think she would've been able to be suffocated with that pillow.
'cause I think her hairhelmet would've kept

Chris (02:09:36):
protective barrier.

Bones (02:09:37):
There would've been like, you know, her bangs alone
would've kept an inch, you know.
Mono airway.

DK (02:09:43):
Okay.
If you saw me in a restaurant and I said,and then Oh, and then the waiter said
this, and then would you do the, that's,I think that's crazy, but that's a, a
mouthful of crazy dialogue that he gets
out there and it's like, it's okay.
It works.
Yeah.
At this point in the movie,there's four minutes left.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
And then there's a fucking flying fan boat.

Chris (02:10:06):
Yeah.
Uh, to your point, like Fisk's videofinishes in front of the mobsters,
Daredevil bursts through the screen.
There's a very short fight.
And then Fisk and Edgar jump into a landspeeder from Star Wars and fly away.

Bones (02:10:22):
I was gonna ask, it's a landspeed, it's just a spray
painted land speeder, right?
Yes.
Like, yeah, pretty much.

Chris (02:10:28):
Oh, there's a giant fan behind them.
God.
Yep.
And, uh, yeah, it, itcompletely fizzles out.
And had this not been a backdoorpilot, there would've been probably
a more definitive, uh, confrontationbetween Daredevil and Fisk, but

DK (02:10:43):
super lame.
The shot when, when the fan boat isflying out and you see Daredevil like
Fisk.
Yeah.
I think
that sucked.

Bones (02:10:54):
I loved it.
I was having an absolute blast.

DK (02:10:57):
I mean, me too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I, I can, I can say thatI don't think it was great.

Bones (02:11:01):
Uh, it was also very weird throughout the experience
watching this on Plex.
I.
When it would dissolve to wherea commercial should have been.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And then it continues.
Yep.
You know, and then right in the middleof dialogue, I get gambling Ozempic,
you know, and chewy.com commercials.
So I, I wish there was some way fortheir algorithm to identify like, this

(02:11:26):
is where a commercial cut was or is.
Mm-hmm.
Because also I, it stuff iswritten and designed to have that.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
For you to go away for a few minutes.
So when you watch it without the break,it does seem sort of jarring that why are
you having the same exact conversation or

DK (02:11:45):
Yeah.
Particularly when it happens inthe, the, the actual trial scene.

Chris (02:11:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Weird.
So, I mean, yeah.
That's, that's basically the end of it.

DK (02:11:57):
One more thing he says, they're like, oh, the roof on
fist tower looks different.
Yeah.
And then Stupid Ass Daredevil hassays, yeah, things happen in the night.
We couldn't come up with anything better.
Anything Then yeah, thingshappen in the night.

(02:12:17):
I guess not.

Bones (02:12:19):
I don't know.
That's what you get.
I don't see what you're talking about.

DK (02:12:22):
I mean, that was the running joke that the, that the office
had, it would've worked there.

Bones (02:12:26):
Yeah.
Looks the same to me.

DK (02:12:30):
That's it.
That's it.
Whoa.
You just, God damnit That's it.
That's the answer.

Chris (02:12:37):
So thoughts gentlemen, on, on this trial of the Incredible Hulk,

DK (02:12:43):
a blast to watch.
Yeah.
My wife has never seen,you know, the Hulk thing.
I mean, she's seen someof the movies and stuff.
Sure.
She, she kind of does the marvel a littlebit, but she's only a casual viewer.
Um, we, she was able towatch it and like, have fun.
I mean, we laughed at it a lot, buta lot of that is just love for me.
I mean, I, I have such a soft spotfor the Made for TV movie period.

(02:13:04):
I watch a lot of them when Ican, particularly horror ones.
Yeah.
I'm just, they're so comfortingand just perfect for me.
I just love them.
And, uh, so yeah, for it to bethis fun and, you know, I have
history with this movie anyway.
I'd seen it many times.
It's a blast from the pastand I had a really fun time.
So I would recommend it to anyoneeven if you've never watched the show.
Even if you just know thebasic, the basics of The Hulk

(02:13:26):
is such a fun night of tv.
Put it on.
It's a fun time.

Bones (02:13:31):
I made the mistake of buying Elden ring over the Christmas holiday
'cause I thought, now's the time.
I've got the time to, to dig into this.
About 20 hours in, Irealized this isn't for me.
I recognize that people can, canlove this and get into the groove.
And people that love Elden Ringwill tell you, oh, you just have to,

(02:13:52):
you have to stick with it and youhave to know that there's a certain
formula and you will enjoy it.
That is what I wouldtell somebody on this.
Like, you have to recognizethat this is a TV movie.
This is a lost art.
There is a particularformat to this go into that.
You will have fun.
If you are expecting an MCU likemodern day level experience,

(02:14:15):
you're not gonna get it.

DK (02:14:17):
Can you imagine someone though, watching this and going
like, and not getting that?
I mean, I just can't, I just can'timagine watching it any other way.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
But I, I mean, I'm sure someone wouldand be like, oh, the Hulk sucked.
Look at him.
He looks weird.
Right?
But how could you not justbe, be like endeared by it?
Is that a word?
Uh, how could you notjust fall in love with it?

(02:14:37):
I don't know.
I, uh,
'Bones: cause you've had a particular standard of, of TV for 30 years since
like we are that elder, uh, eldermillennial generation where this
is what our parents were watching.
Right.
So, yeah.
I. Yeah, I don't know.

Chris (02:14:54):
I'm, and it's, it's all just like, what is your experience and
what do you have tolerance for?
I mean, a lot of people will point tosomething like the room and be like,
that's the worst movie of all time.
And I can tell you, uh, at leastthe camera is like pointing
at the actors when they speak.
Yeah.
Like, at least it's unintentionally funny.

(02:15:15):
There's, you know, so many levels belowthat that are just like, painful to watch.
One of which I talked aboutwith someone else on this show
recently called Colony Mutation.
Fucking terrible.
So, you know, if you don't have a lotof tolerance for anything that's not
like a big studio feature or, you know,a, a prestige HBO max TV show, I can

(02:15:41):
definitely see people having that reactionof like, oh, this is dumb as fuck.
Look at his hair.

DK (02:15:47):
But I would argue also that, that it is like watchable as hell.

Bones (02:15:50):
Yeah.

DK (02:15:50):
Yeah.
I think it is.
I think it really is.
And it moves too.
It doesn't, it's, you know, a lot oftimes with these things, it, you get
stuck in one room or you get stuck withlike, just two characters or whatever.
Uh, it doesn't, I mean, it, it really,it moves, it doesn't overstate.
It's welcome.
It's, it's a nice 90 minutes.
It's fun.
So I don't know if you're not convincedby now, I, I have nothing else to say.

Bones (02:16:13):
I, man, I, I would watch this twice before I watched Nosferatu again.

Chris (02:16:20):
I have

Bones (02:16:21):
Okay.

Chris (02:16:23):
I watched this once, saw Nosferatu, and then watched this three more times.

DK (02:16:29):
Technically true for me, but I am a Nosferatu.
Right.
If you had said almost anythingelse, maybe, but Nosferatu, well, I

Bones (02:16:36):
was, it wasn't necessarily like a dig at you, it was just like, oh,

DK (02:16:39):
well, it almost, it kind of feels like it, you know?
But

Bones (02:16:43):
I guess I was trying to make like a, like if you watch Nosferatu
and you're like, me, where yougo, uh, nothing, nothing happened.
What is this?
Like, you can't be dowerand have nothing happen.
Like, you know, like, uh, the, theCoppola one works because it's like
passionate and romantic and colorful.

(02:17:04):
Mm-hmm.
And the darkness is below, and it,

Chris (02:17:08):
and Ke Reeves does a really good British accent

DK (02:17:13):
and oceans of time are being crossed.
I get it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Blue Inferno.
I know,
I understand completely what you mean.
Yeah, I do.

Bones (02:17:23):
Yeah.
So if you go into this and you'relike, Ugh, God, like this looks stupid.
There's no graphics, likeit doesn't look cool.
Like, you know, like I, I, I don't know.
That's maybe it's a bad comparison,but No, I think it was honestly

DK (02:17:38):
perfect.
I've just, I loved Nosferatu and Icouldn't let, I couldn't let it go.

Chris (02:17:42):
Well, I mean, even to bring it back to like the current Marvel
iterations of this, I think I said Ididn't want to complain about the MCUA
lot, but here I am doing it again.
I think what it boils down to for me,and I think even a lot of Marvel fans
would agree, is that I like movies thatfeel like they were made by people.

(02:18:02):
MCU movies feel like they were madeby many different people, and so
they are serving many different ends.
Yeah.
That's why I would prefer somethinglike this, because it's, it
feels like it was made by people.
All of the, the quirky things we talkedabout is exactly what gives it the juice.
That makes me want to watch it again.

(02:18:24):
Yeah.
Like, oh, this is what makes

DK (02:18:25):
it good.

Chris (02:18:25):
A hundred percent.
This is a weird decision.
Why did they do that?
I might not like it, but it's interesting.

Bones (02:18:32):
But to that point with what a big problem with modern MCU Chris you
were talking about, you would've enjoyedthis more if it was more Hulk oriented
and not a backdoor pilot for Dar Devil.
And most of the MCU nowis a movie setting up.
How many other branchesand teams and crossovers.
So the stuff that really works in theMCU, it can have crossover, but at

(02:18:57):
its core it's a standalone experience.
Like, my wife can love Thor RagnarRock without watching any other
Thor, without watching a Hulk movie.
Or, or, or Dr. Strange, likethere's enough built in there
to give you like, oh, this isanother character who's a sorcerer.
Cool.
Got it.
That's not to say the stuff that, thereason I really like Infinity War and

(02:19:21):
Endgame is it's leaning into the factthat this is a team up, this is, this
is what all that other work was for.
Mm-hmm.
But they just learned the wrong lesson.
You know, the, the better MCU moviesthat aren't, uh, Avengers based are
your winter soldier, which is forthe most part standalone story, the
original Ironman standalone story.

(02:19:42):
Um, so I, I wish there was not thatdrive at the core of whenever they set
out to say like, we're gonna make thismovie, and the committee then goes, but
we also have to think about Wakanda.
We have to think about this.
We have to think about this, asopposed to write a really good movie.
Yeah.
All right.
You know, it would be kind of coolis if so and so drove by real quick

(02:20:05):
and said, oh, hey, here's this thing.
Remember me.
I'll see you in a few movies.
Totally fine with that.
Yeah.

Chris (02:20:12):
Yeah.
And I mean that's like they reckonwith a massive mess that they've made.
Yes.
Every
time.
That's just kind of the problem that is permeating all film at this point.
Yeah.
Because we're in the age of ip.
So you know, James Cameron didn'tmake, you know, or I guess a better
example, George Lucas made StarWars without the expectation that

(02:20:34):
there was ever going to be a sequel.
Yeah.
So on the one hand we do get weirdthings like Luke kissing his sister,
but on the other hand, we had people,everyone involved in making that movie
just trying to make a good movie.
And I feel like this is a similarsituation where it's like, uh,
you know, there's no guaranteeanything's coming after it.

(02:20:54):
We have some plans for what mighthappen, but let's focus first
and foremost on making this good.

Bones (02:21:00):
Yeah.
I'll, I'll say this Empire strikes back.
A lot of people say that's thebest Star Wars movie, right?
You have to have Star Warsfor that to make sense.
Absolutely.
The trial of the Incredible Hulk,I didn't watch any Incredible
Hulk, and this is fun Trial of theincredible Hulk just logically is
better than Empire Strikes back.

(02:21:21):
I

Chris (02:21:21):
love this.

Bones (02:21:22):
I love this.

Chris (02:21:23):
Hey, as a very rare Return of The Jedi is the best Star Wars movie person,
I will co-sign that this is better thanEmpire Strikes Back Just for the bit.
Yeah, it's soft for the all bit.
Please God.
Sure it is.

Bones (02:21:42):
Sure it is.
This is a blast, dude.
Thanks for having me.

Chris (02:21:47):
Yeah, for real.
Trial of the incredible Hulk.
Um, I think we've probably said allwe needed to say over the course of
these last three and a half hours.
Look at us now, boys.

Bones (02:21:58):
It's gonna be such a strange spike and in viewings of this movie.

Chris (02:22:02):
Yeah, well, I have thought about that.
Not in terms of viewings of this movie,but the, just by virtue of the fact
that this is tangentially tied to theMCU, like this will probably be the
most downloaded episode of this show.
Like however long it goes on, I guaranteemore people are gonna wanna hear about
this than, uh, fucking a hotdog sex quiz,

Bones (02:22:29):
jumping straight to the titties, foregoing the legs.

Chris (02:22:34):
Uh, I will say that afterwards, I was talking to my significant
other about this and she waslike, oh, let's do that together.
She took the quiz and roughly gotthe same score as the three of you.
So you guys did as good as a, anactual woman did, which it was.
There can be no higher endorsementthan that, I don't think.

(02:22:56):
But, uh, yeah.
So, you know, thank you guysfor coming on and breathing life
into this dead format with me.
Uh, tell the phone, tell the fine folksout there even where they can find you
in anything you've got in the works.

Bones (02:23:09):
Uh, five Day Rentals video store podcast.
Uh, we're, we're currentlyon the run, though.
There, there is no video store.
Um, so we are, I'm not sure whenthis is coming out, but season
three of our show should be out.
Um, yep.
Uh, Chris, I'm sure we'vehad you on multiple times.
I'm sure we'll have you back soon.

(02:23:30):
Uh, DK frequent collaborator,uh, uh, fantastic.
This guy out does himself every timeI come to him with a theme request.
And I gotta tell you, the seasonthree theme, uh, gave me chills.
The fact that I sent you a terrible voicememo with, with like a concept and you

(02:23:50):
delivered very quickly and on time forme to be able to edit comfortably was,
uh, uh, I'm eternally grateful for that.
So, uh, it, it's your threewhite dudes talking movies.
But for the love of God, we reallydo try to keep it entertaining
regardless of the puppet or non revengebased movies that we are covering.

(02:24:11):
Everything from, uh, Pinocchio'sRevenge to the classic Pinocchio.
So if you like Chris, if you like DKon this, and I, he thought I was like,
so-so, uh, it's not just me over there.
Uh, LA Dan Kron Howard, they'rereally carrying the show.
Um, checks out.

DK (02:24:28):
Hell yeah.
Well, I'll just say that again.
This is dk.
If you didn't know, uh, why didI, why, why do I keep doing that?
I'm really hungry.
Um, so first of all, you shouldlisten to Five Day Reynolds.
Oh, damn.
You out.
Did me.
It's, it's one of my favorite shows.
There is.
It's so, so good.
The theme that we worked on, uh, bones.

(02:24:49):
You gave me the idea, and, andit just, I really love the theme.
It's probably the mostfun I ever had riding one.
It's, it's a blast.
I love it.
So I, I hope people will check that out.
But, but more importantly,the show is so good.
So please, people willlisten to Five Day Rens.
Um, very funny show and great.
Um, I do Nerds Geeks in the Kitchen Sink.
We do, we've been coveringa lot of comics lately.

(02:25:11):
Um, I cover any films I watch.
I, I do a lot of horror talk, soI'm constantly talking about random
horror shit that I found usuallyfrom the seventies and eighties.
Um, but I, all kinds of stuff.
We'll, we'll cover, cover prettymuch everything, so check that
out if you want to hear nerds.
I mean, it truly is just nerd talk.
Um, but, but more importantly,five Day Reynolds.

(02:25:31):
Thank you.
No, no.
Oh, oh, oh.
One more thing.
I also have a music projectcalled, home is Midnight.
It's like, uh, synththrowbacky synth type stuff.
Danceable, kind of horny.
Um, I don't know what you wannacall it really, but it's, um, we'll
have a full album soon, I promise.
It's, we're so close.
It'll be out.
It'll be out soon.

Bones (02:25:50):
And, uh, featured in a actual feature film.
Right.

DK (02:25:53):
Have we featured in the, um, Jill six movie, um, ghost Game available now?
Very fun.
Very cool Dude's.
Beautifuls a pro.
Dude's a pro.

Chris (02:26:04):
Yeah, I will co-sign it.
Go listen to both of their shows.
I'm, I'm glad to have Nerds Geekback because, uh, prior to that,
you know, weekly Podcast Massacrehas been the only thing sustaining
me for like the past month.
Every other podcast I listento has been on hiatus, so Sure.
Glad to have both of your showscoming back in the near future.

Bones (02:26:25):
Uh, if you're gonna have a show carry you through Weekly Weekly's good.
They've, they've had a good run right now.
I think they just did You do a lot worse.
Yeah.
Um, Arachni Phobia, I just did, Ithink at one point Murph called Crown.
Crown, like he pronouncedit like Crown Howard.
Crown Howard and I waslike, fucking please Guy.
Don't hear this Crown,because he is the king.

(02:26:46):
Yeah.
He already won the damn sex game.

Chris (02:26:49):
Yeah, you sure did.
So yeah.
On behalf of Bones and dk, I'm Chris.
This has been anotherepisode of Dead Formats.
If you have any questions about theshow or if you have a dead format
topic that you'd like to hear me cover,or if you have any suggestions for
potential guests, please reach out.
You can email me at Deadformats pod@gmail.com.

(02:27:12):
Or you can reach out to me onInstagram at Dead Formats Pod.
Thanks for listening.
Eyes.

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