Lies Entrepreneurs Believe: Are we just civilized gamblers obsessed with the lie of passive income?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Your stories, your experiences can changeit all.
Let's fight until you're together.
We can defeat 90.
I lost $18,000 on a picture of an animatedbull,
and I brought my brother down with me.
And you know why we held?
Because we were promised an animated bear.

(00:23):
We had 90,000 people in our discord.
So it was just like you are.
The problem with NFTs is likeit was like a digital gold rush,
as a whole, as entrepreneurs,I think we are gamblers.
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely. And like, we're respectablegamblers.
It's just like it's like.
But everything you do is a gamble.
I first wake up call was,you know, we were we got to top

(00:46):
ten stories, you know, in the countryand it was top ten out of 16,000.
And then, you know, without anything
changing as far as like what we were doingprocesses up to that point,
it went to 60,000 stores and that's,you know, five times the competition.
first
short film, you know, you showed melike did all this

(01:09):
and I'm like, how could it keephow could it still be doing that?
You know, that was five years ago.
So it's like you can do one thing that,
you know, cost you two weekends.
That could end up being like a pistonin their engine of their dream.
That just continues to go,
Welcome to the defeatingI show episode two.

(01:30):
This is a special one for mebecause it's my first guest.
But it's also one of my best friends.
One of my partners in.
I shall not say in business.
Because you know what?
Ex wife visits.
So a funny joke.
First of all, this is Robert Kelly.
And we've been friends for.

(01:51):
It's been a minute,and we've been doing business.
Yeah, yeah.
Doing businessfor a minute, too. So for me,
the reason why I
wanted you on the show is you were kind ofhelping fill a transition gap
of where I was doing businessconsulting to move you
into doing to 90 kind of that part.

(02:11):
But there's also this guyhas, like, the funniest, craziest stories.
I mean, he may have one of the mostinteresting lives,
you will ever hear aboutbecause the things like,
you know,some of we literally cannot tell.
We cannot tell on a on air, butoh my gosh.
So we're going to tryto get some of that stuff out

(02:31):
because as you know, we'reabout being vulnerable and authentic.
And so we'll see what happens today.
Absolutely. So welcome. Thank you.
Glad to be here.
This is amazing.
I appreciate you being on here.
So we're going to just oneelephant in the room.
So your main company,that I've consulted for
and we've seen, you know,good exponential growth on.

(02:54):
We cannot actually saywhat the name of the company is.
I know it sounds so fishy.
Fishy is the wrong word.
It's a very competitive spacethat he's in,
and it's on a retail space.
It we just his suppliersand all these other things.
Right?We can't. Yeah. It's a wholesale store.
Yeah.
We can't we can't mess with it.

(03:15):
So, anyways, we'll just leave it at that.
So. Okay.
Jumping into this.
I want to hear your story.
I want to hear tell me whereentrepreneurship began for you.
Yeah.
So, like, watching my dad growing up,he's like an ambitious man.
He's always kind ofhad a bunch of projects going, but he went

(03:37):
from basically doing the export businesslike I did.
And then he was a school counselorfor a little bit.
He's been like a college professor.
He's coached a soccer team.
He's been kind of all over the place.
So growing up watching that,I assume that was the default mode, that
like a man just always has,you know, 4 or 5 pans in the fire

(03:57):
and then like,there's a lot to live up to.
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
But then, yeah, my grandpa kind of didthe same thing where he was a preacher,
but then he would go on the missionstrips.
He did like building stuff.
He started a company called like RV or isthat was the mission thing,
where they went around the countryand RVs and stuff.
And he always told me,you have your one main thing
and then everything elsesits on top of it.

(04:20):
So I kind of went into itthinking like that.
And then with the businessthat I got started
in, my dad, you saw me sweepthe warehouse for $5 an hour.
We'd, like, sweep the warehouse, go cleanthe gutters, pop all the leaves in bags,
stow them away and stuff.
Disclaimerthis is not child labor law stuff here.
This is I mean, this is kid.So yeah, it was baby.

(04:41):
I know we're going to benefitof the comments and stuff like that.
So going from that,I that was like an actual
early exampleof like time being traded for money.
Yeah.
And then when I had my firstlike retail sale, which came years later,
and I realized that this is just mebuying something cheaper
and selling it for moreand having the margin.
And I made,you know, what I would have made

(05:03):
in ten hours of sweeping,you know, 50 bucks.
I was like, this makes more sense to me.
I was like, I can figure this outand work harder and multiply it.
But I like the idea of itnot being concrete
because sometimes, you know, it's like,
no matter how hard I work today,there's only eight hours in the day.
I'm going to make the 40 bucks.
But going in and knowing that,
you know, this could be a bad dayor this could be a good day,

(05:24):
but it's dynamic and it's changingbased on the effort I put in.
And I'm not like, boxed in.
How old were you when you had that lesson?
Like 13.
So I mean arguably,do you think it was your dad's
like actual ideathat this would to change that thought?
Like, was that like his ideaor did you actually just click at 13?

(05:45):
Yeah, no,I definitely came up with the idea myself.
But with him, I mean, he does Mr.
Miyagi type stuff.
So it very well could have been planned.
Okay.
One of my, my, my favorite storiesthough about this just kind of
in that same vein,how about digging the fence?
Yeah.
So yeah, one of my earliest partners,his name was Luke Hansen.
He's went on to dogreat things in business,
but we, were left at a rental propertythat my dad had.

(06:09):
So he basically gaveus, like, a metal stake.
And then one of these, like,claw type things.
That was basically a post digger,but it was solid rock.
So, like, underneath the halfinch of dirt was basically just shelf rock
that you would have had to, like, blow
through where it should have been,like professionally done.
So we made a deal with them.

(06:30):
We were going to get like a couplehundred bucks each to put this fence in,
and he dropped us off and left,and we didn't have a car or anything.
The gas station was like a mile away.
So we would go there to get drinksand like go to the bathroom and stuff.
But he came back around lunchtime
and we had had like 5 or 6 posts done,
and he was expecting us to get one whole.
He thought we would do one whole and quit,and he wanted to see like

(06:53):
if we could do this hard workbefore he gave us the actual job.
And we exceeded expectations, mainlybecause Luke is very competitive and
and whether you knew or not, you know,he doesn't quit.
So that's interesting because he,he basically try to set you up to fail.
Yeah.
To try to teach you a lessonabout how tough things can be.
And then you prevailed.

(07:14):
Well, yeah, we definitely I mean, we gotbusses on our hands and stuff like that.
But then after that, yeah,he proposed the real business idea.
So like going into it, we knew for surewe didn't want to do fences.
Fences are hard.
Fences are hard.
That about respect the fencing industry.
Oh you guys out there there.
You know having fence companieswe have the respect for you.

(07:36):
I did irrigation when I was when, my gosh, when my oh,
I didn't have very many jobs.I always had businesses.
Major to gracious using a sharpshooterand digging holes that that's a
that's a job man.
They can like.So all the respect out there. Yeah.
So as you're learning these lessons,you're 13.
Like,
was it just like I'm going to do businessor was there a clicking inside of you

(08:00):
that's like, I don't want to trade timeand I want to own something.
Or what was that initial point whereyou're like, I want to have my own thing.
Yeah, I definitely didn't
want to trade time for moneyas far as like traditional employment.
And then also I likedlike the flexibility of it.
Like when we got into sales,it was like we knew we had 8 to 10 orders

(08:21):
that would go out in the day,
and I'd wake up at like 8or 9 on the summer day, and I could
basically text Luke and be like, hey,do you want to go in and ship now?
And we get it out of the wayand we have the rest of the day,
or like if you're going golfing or,you know, if I had like saxophone lessons
or whatever, then we meet in the eveningafter dinner and we'll ship.
And just like early on,knowing that the flexibility of like,

(08:42):
the work has to be done,but it's not a concrete box.
Okay. So you're you're 13 years old.
Make him.
Okay.
So let's fast forward a little becausenow you've you started the company with.
Yeah. With Luke,
you're in high school, right?
How much?
I mean, you howwell are you guys doing with this thing?
So we were averaging, like in high school,about 800

(09:03):
bucks a month, and I felt like I was,like, the richest man.
A lot of, like the.
Yeah.
And because, yeah, I mean, all wasn'tlike I'm living with my parents though.
So the first time I got the check,it was $800 and I took like 10
or 12 guys and girlsto Buffalo Wild Wings.
And because I'd always seen my dad, like,do this at different,

(09:25):
you know, family functions or whatever, itI had never taken the time before.
So I wanted to like take the timeto have the experience. Yeah. Yeah.
So you go to Buffalo Wild Wings
and at the end of the night,
like they're going to do the checkand stuff and I go, hey, it's all on me.
It was like over 400 bucks.
And then you have to tip on thaton top of it, which I forgot was a thing.
So then, you know, you not that I hadand I just had never paid at a restaurant.

(09:46):
So you tipand then I come home and I'm like, yeah,
I just blew like half of my paycheckon one dinner,
you know,which they all thought was cool and stuff.
And my dad's like, I don't. Why?
Yeah, why would you do that?What was the purpose?
So for you, when did you startkind of understanding the value of money.
Do you feel likethat was something you understood then,
or is itsomething you learned later in life?

(10:07):
Well, we had a couple of check ins,so this is like how it worked
before we had figured out
the business was the wholesaleside of things is you would send it
and sometimes there would be like a poorcheck in where like the product either
didn't get approvedor they didn't approve as much of it
as they sell on the invoice.
And we would like lose, you know.
So then it's like basically
what we had put into the product came backand it was less than that.

(10:29):
So I realized at that point that there islike some level of risk to it.
But then we also had monthsthat were like big, you know, so
the the ups
and downs of it was basically that we haveto, you know, always be watching what
we were buying and kind of almost haveour finger on the pulse of the business.
Like there is no true autopilot, you know,

(10:51):
that's something that I mean,
as we know, at some point,I want to have this conversation
with you about passive income, because,
I mean, we'vemost of us have rich dad, poor dad, right?
And there's this glowing thingof passive income, but like,
I don't think it exists.
Like, I know it exists,but I think there's always that
risk of you have to have the peoplemanaging people bench people.

(11:12):
I mean, there's there's always a thing,but we
we can talk about that thereI think another time.
But passive income is one of those thingsthat's like you're learning
that lesson early on. Believeit's a myth. Yeah. Yeah.
So passive. Yeah.
So okay, I think one of the other thingsthat I want to dive into a little bit.
So you're doing this business,
your teenager and you have your dad.

(11:35):
What's that dynamic life like of himmentoring you versus
letting you fail versus being a parentbecause like you know how that.
Yeah I mean heyeah he made huge sacrifices
starting out because what it waswas basically the product here.
That sauce you know to get the product.
And then he had the people that we wereselling to which were his contacts.
So basically he would bring in the productto have us go through it, sort

(11:57):
it, go through
like a guide and find out you know whatpeople needed and fulfill the orders.
And then we would get paid off of it.
So we were doing like the work once
it came in and getting it out the door,but we hadn't actually created value yet.
So he kind of did what like Henry Ford didto when they came up with the Shelby
basically told all the factory workersto walk home that day
and think of a way to make Ford successfulor don't come back.

(12:20):
And they said, we cut you off almost.
Yeah.
So and he came and they came backand they had the idea for a sports car.
So my dad told me in Luke one monthbasically that this idea of,
you know, me bringing the product newsout to my contacts and stuff like this
doesn't make sense.
You know, for the long term,that's going to be the last month.
We do this next month.
You know,I want to hear some new ideas from you,

(12:41):
unlikehow we're going to grow this business.
And, you know, that was like a year in.
So I know the the story of where this goesbecause I can
I've been working with you for a while.
What was the spark that madeyou figure out where you went with that?
So I think it's truly like innovationthe most.
The times have beenthe most innovative in my life,
have been like the back against the wallhigh pressure moments.

(13:03):
And I wish we could, likeget into that headspace voluntarily.
But I like have yetto find out how to do that.
So it's like when someone says like,you know, it's make it a break at time,
whatever idea that you've got,like the seed sprouts
out of that fear, you know?
So we went homeand we were looking through the list,

(13:24):
and what we had onour shelves was a bunch of stuff
that was worth a dollar,which obviously isn't even worth shipping.
And that'swhat happened was, we looked it up,
we just googled the number,
and we were just thinking like,is there any other place we could sell?
Because for us, our entire universewas these three companies
that buy from us, like.
And that'swhere our tunnel vision was like,
these are the only three companiesthat buy this stuff.

(13:44):
This is all that exists. Yeah.
So by like googling itand then hitting enter and seeing eBay
come up where it was like, youknow, stuff's selling for 50 times more.
We were like,there's this entire universe out here.
And all we needed was basically shippinglabels to access it.
And the music came up.
Yeah, exactly.

(14:04):
Maybe we should do that.
Can you can you sponsor this for us?
Because it was probably more informationabout E-Bay.
I'll hear them.
They probably deserved.
Oh, sorry.
Did I say thatI set that up for the probe.
So anyways, just move on from that.
I just saw some spots.
We love you eBay.
Sorry, there is some things there.

(14:25):
That is the reason whywe can't talk about some of this stuff.
Anyways,
so jumping into that, the the innovation,
learning the ins and outs of that,
which again, like
because we innovate, I'll never knowwhether that was a real ultimatum or not.
You know,that's kind of how it's been working.
My dad and stuff is like

(14:46):
he may have said next month, hey,I'll give you another month or whatever.
But at the moment, that was the dead end,you know what I mean?
And whether it's a real dead endor a perceived dead end, you know,
I think it has the same effect,especially growing up.
You know, I think that's I think the thingI want to pull right here and just.
Like, we all face those moments right.

(15:08):
And so much of the time we let fear in
and we get to a place where like,oh my gosh, we get overwhelmed.
I can be one ofthe people gets overwhelmed sometimes.
But I love that thought
of turning that moment into an innovation.
Yeah, because I honestly say that you actas if that's just normal.
I don't think that's normalfor everybody else.

(15:29):
I think there's a lot more peopleare like, oh, well, I guess this is it.
Yeah. Moving on. Yes, we're done.
And I think that goes to the, the,the part of you that is the entrepreneur
that is that risk taker,that is that innovator inside of you.
That's like,now we got to figure this out.
And I've, I've personally seen you do that
so much.
And it's just I mean it's one of the mostimpressive things about who you are.
You are a critical amazing problemsolver innovator.

(15:53):
And I think when you're back'sagainst the wall, you perform, which,
I mean, if it's the in the world,I want you on my team.
I'm just saying like likethis is the guy you want on your team.
But for you guys,
I think there's a switch therethat you can look for.
There's that moment when you get to, okay,how can I innovate?
How can I do this?
How can I look for the positive into it?

(16:14):
Because I can tell youand some of the things we faced
in the business, those have been actuallysome of the best changes that have
happened to us
that we wouldhave never even thought about the idea
unless we were in a spot where like,oh crap, we gotta figure this out.
So look for the innovation.
Okay, so let's let's go back intothis whole thing of working with your dad.
Which I know, I mean I love the guy.

(16:34):
He is a character.
Especially all the Mr.
Miyagi stuff. It's real.
It still happens to this day.I know that for a fact.
And, but he has such an amazing heart
because you want you to learn.
But that's still tough, though,right? Yeah.
So walk me through that.
What does that look like as a father andson in the family business type situation?

(16:54):
Like pros, consI mean, yeah, it's obviously
you spent a lot of timetogether and stuff,
which is a huge blessingbecause it's like a lot of people,
you know, you don't
get to see your parents as much and stuffand it's like working together.
He has always tried to teach the lessonsthrough actions,
because I'm the type of guy, like I've,like, made some mistakes in my life
as far as people just telling me,hey, don't do this, this is how it'll end

(17:17):
up, and I have to see it for myself,you know?
Which is like a flaw, but
pretty much the the buying.
He's always told usyou need to continue to branch out
because before you and me startedworking together, I reached this point
where I was working by myself,you know, my partner, and moved on,
and I was comfortable with the amount ofmoney I was making per month,

(17:40):
which started me sleeping in like laterand going softer on my business
because I thought, like,I've reached the point
and I could plateau hereand be comfortable.
But in all entrepreneurshipand all businesses,
if you're a sitting duck like that,there is a guy that wants it more and
he's at your heels, you know, so you can'tjust, like, completely stop innovating

(18:00):
or looking for new product linesor thinking of like better ways to market.
Like if you are sitting there,it's like NASCAR,
like you're out a pit stop and someone'seither going to catch up with you or lap
you at that pointso you can't get too comfortable.
And I definitely was.Why do you think that happened?
I mean, I just
I hadn't come up against like oppositionin the business yet

(18:22):
because I was like only 3 or 4 yearsand at the time
and I think like at that point,you definitely just take it for granted.
And like things were falling into placeand, you know, this feels good.
And I was basingit also like on school, like public school
going up through elementaryand high school, like going to Evangel,

(18:43):
it seems like the world is just stepby step, next grade, next level.
And I thought business would be thatsame way.
You know, you just like, climbthis kind of little systematic ladder.
But it truly is like when you getto the top of the school ladder,
you just step out into an open fieldand it's just free roam free game.
You could go any direction and stuff

(19:03):
and there are like routes and pathsand people that help you, but
the possibilities are endless as faras what the business can end up doing.
Okay, so look,
and as we know,
more times than not,
but getting to where everything'sjust like really, really good
is not always the case for most business.

(19:25):
Like you were definitely blessed in that.
But I think we also,even though that's the case,
we do find ways and things in our lifethat we do become passive about.
Yeah,and we get comfortable in like for you,
what did it take to wake you up?
So I mean, my
first wake up call was,
you know, we were we got to topten stories, you know, in the country

(19:47):
and it was top ten out of 16,000.
And then, you know, without anything
changing as far as like what we were doingprocesses up to that point,
it went to 60,000 stores
and that's, you know, five timesthe competition.
Yeah.
So at that point you're like, okay,
what was originally a blue oceanand we basically had our own

(20:09):
private island is now basically coming upagainst competition of like a true kind.
Yeah.
Where that is a bigger pool
of, you know, companies that are sharingthe same amount of market.
So it was the pain. Yeah.
So if you wouldn't experience the pain ofdo you think you'd still just
been been chilling

(20:30):
I don't know I mean part of every man
I think wants something more likeI wanted to put a purpose to it and stuff.
But there's the two like wolves.
I think the entrepreneurs deal with.
You have like the one that you wantto make an impact in the world
and you want to servelike a greater purpose
and put your efforts towards somethingthat's going to be, like, meaningful and,
you know, help people.

(20:51):
And then the other one is like,there's a part of us that wants to rest,
you know, that. Yeah.
You hear people like, oh, well,if I got 2 million,
I could put in an index fundand I could live off of the residuals.
Then I would just go lay on a beachsomewhere and stuff like that.
They want to be done.
So you have like the part that wantsto, like, work hard
and make a difference in the partthat's like ready to be finished.

(21:13):
Yeah.
And both of those are trying to get theirway pretty much all the time.
And I think, you know,
I think it's so interesting.
We've we've talked about these studieson that.
Just kind of diving offa little bit on that.
I remember the one whereabout taking the infinite vacation, like
it was like three.
Was it three weeks?Three weeks in. Yeah. Three weeks.

(21:34):
So if you put someone in, likean all inclusive resort for three weeks
by day 21, they are like dying to go home,
which is crazybecause you think like at that point
you have everything you could ever want.
So like,why do you want to go home for it?
But Alice Cooper, who is like,you know, the famous rock star,
he talked to Elvis's manager and Elvis,basically towards the end of his life,

(21:56):
was just
doing show after show after show, tourafter tour where he had no freedom at all.
But he had everything that he wanted
and, you know,obviously like it ended in his demise.
But the manager asked Alice Cooperif I were to put you in a mansion
and you could have all the best food,all the best drinks,
drugs, girls like anything.
But you weren't allowedto leave the mansion.

(22:18):
How long do you think you would last?
And he's like, becausethat's what you're living for right now.
Yeah. So if I gave you all that,
but you were bound to a mansion,you would be depressed.
So it's like there's this wayof, like, all the worldly things,
you know, that we are attracted to.
And, like, tempted to strive for.
If you had it all but you didn'thave your freedom, you wouldn't want it.

(22:38):
Which are you?
You say freedom.
I think part of the issue withit is more that like a vision, right?
And like a purpose.
Yeah.
I feel like we as human beings were made
to work towards somethingand do something that matters.
And I like and I hate saying this,but I mean the stats.
Can I prove it out to youwhen it comes to retirement, people

(22:59):
that retire, right, and stop actuallydoing something that matters,
volunteering or whatever it is,
maybe they stop doing their jobor they're doing something with a purpose.
They passed by a lot sooner.
Yeah, their healthdrops off, it drops off, and so
to me, I think like,I mean, obviously we've all heard this,
but find something you're passionateabout, finding something you love.

(23:21):
But I think that wasalso a struggle with you because like,
did you enjoy what you were doing?
Yeah.
So I didn't enjoy the actual part,like selling the product.
I enjoyed the like the game. Yeah.
I'm figuring out like,how can we do this better?
How could we optimize and stuff.
But, I didn't have like a goal,
like to optimize towards, you know, I just

(23:43):
basically wanted to just see how refinedwe could get the machine.
So, like,
you know, obviously we got it down to likeminimal time that we could, but like,
you obviously had to defeat 90 visionand different things.
And I like was just seeinghow close essentially I could
get to retiring in my 20s, which isI was like really hilarious because.

(24:03):
Ridiculous. Yeah.
And we had many conversationlike, dude, bro.
Yeah.
I was like, we're trying to free uptime for a purpose.
I think it would have been different.
Yeah, but you end up introducing things.
Yes, to interesting adventures.
We'll get to thatin the seconds. Yeah. But.
Yeah, it didn't work out super well.
No, no.
Well, that's what's crazy is I like,obviously I'm, Christ follower.

(24:27):
And I believe that part of our curseis having to work.
Okay.
And it doesn't mean, like,
physical labor, different things.You could work with your mind,
you could be workingwith people and stuff.
I think, like when we're not workingor not even working,
when we're not livingto our fullest potential, you feel that
like it wears on you and there's nothingyou can do to trick yourself.

(24:48):
You could trick other people
and they think you're busy, busy, busy,and you're working hard and stuff.
And if you know that, like, I'mnot bringing my best,
that'll wear on you.
Many have tried and more have failed.
The life of an entrepreneuris not for the weak of heart.
If you are going to succeed,you must have real grit.

(25:12):
Stop the epic sales pitch. defeat 90
is about you
and the value is not created in for meor any other person.
As far as being a guru, but it's createdfrom us collectively working together
to rebel against this failure.
So if you're looking for a communitythat gets you, if you're looking for a

(25:32):
community to inspire you,if you're looking for a community
to help you, push you onto being the best version of who you are
and having the best version of yourbusiness possible, join defeat like be.
Did. for sure.
And I think for and it goes backto having something you love

(25:55):
and you're passionate about and believing
it's still work. Yeah, right.
And for me, and this is somethingI think it's important for you guys
to know of yours,is that like there was a shift,
so I was working with him and Iguess we transitioned just when I came on.
We the class alone here?
Yeah. Classic moment.
And basically I was, creating another, video education

(26:20):
platform that I was a part owner of,and he was working with me.
He's a passion for film.
We'll get into that in a second.
And, amazing cinematographer, like,just amazing cinematographer.
But,
then Covid happened
and a bunch of other things,and we were just like, oh, crap.
And so I end up like, I had tons ofclients and all of it went away.

(26:43):
And basically it moved into this,
thing of like,yeah, I'll come and help and basically
started, consulting on his businessand stuff like that.
And we, we grew it.
We we basically ended up being likethree acts in the business. 300.
And that was amazing.
But there was a point in that

(27:04):
when we got to that pointwhere we're talking about where
I'm like, what am I doing?
Like, like we I'm super chill life.
And I'm like, yeah, well, you almostexperienced a little bit of that.
Yeah.
So like is when things are likeeasy, comfortable, everything feels good.
It's hard to leave that hamster wheel.
And I mean I wentwhen I was only six vacation

(27:26):
I think for the yearI was like for the year, for the year.
And I'm just like, okay, well,
you know, and like something started
starting to me and like when there wasthis shift of when I knew things
I needed to move on and figure outmy thing to do something that mattered.
Yeah.
And there was this, this, this thinginside of me, like, I can't this defeat 90

(27:48):
is something I've been thinking aboutfor like over ten years.
I'd try to parts of it before withanother company a long time ago, but like,
I knew I wanted to do somethingthat could change lives
and actually make an impactbecause after everything was done,
I mean, I thought about going the route ofjust getting some like really high paid
CEO or CMO type role, I mean, or helprun a company, like very well.

(28:11):
I've, I've been doing this for forever,
but I want to do somethingthat this is not about the money for me.
This is about
like if I can truly in these conversationswe have,
if we can actually helpyou avoid some mistakes and things
we went through and helpyou be even more successful.
And the thing is tois not just be successful because like,
we've had this successwhere money is not a thing

(28:34):
and it was a thing, right?
We and that's I think that's whatwe're trying to allude to in this,
of getting to that purposeand knowing your vision
of why you're doing what you're doingand I think even in your business
that you're doing like you feel stuck in,maybe you're feeling not very motivated.
Try to go back to your why.
Why are you there?
What are you what are you doing that for?

(28:54):
Because that might.
I knowwhen you start getting back to your why
and what you were trying to go,that really started
kicking off where you wantedto go with things and yeah, absolutely.
I'd say like a lot of business owners,we have like a dream.
But what we start first normally iswe start something reluctantly.
Yeah. You know, like, well,this is what's the lowest hanging fruit.

(29:15):
This is close by.
I'll just start on this and thenat some point I'll figure something out.
And then you have to find a reasonto stay,
you know, like, say you want to open,like, a cupcake shop, but you start
selling used books
first and stuff, and then the cupcakesbecome a side thing and stuff.
So it's like you eitherwould have to merge the dreams
or pick one, you know, and thethe fork in the road comes out quick.

(29:36):
Yeah.
But when you started working with me,what was the best
part was justyou had fresh eyes on a business
that I'd been in since eighth grade,you know?
So I thought, like, there'sonly one way to do things and stuff.
Like when he came on, all my productwas sorted completely randomly,
so I had like 28 shelves,and I just would put what shelf it was on.
And then you had to look throughlike 30 things. You knew it was on there.

(29:59):
So like one of the first thingshe said was
we should like reserve the inventory
when it came in, which was like,you know, oh, the resistance.
Yeah. My dog or something.
You know, I'm like pretty much,
you know, had eversaid why I had it like that or whatever.
And as every consultant goes through,it's like that pain of like,
why you doing this and why are you doingit the way you're doing it?

(30:19):
And they're like, well,I don't know what you're.
So we would do it and like and I mean,we had some intense discussions guys.
Well and one of the probably topthing you did was I think was
huge was like within a monthI had a store within the store.
So my dad had, like, a lot of highend inventory that he had bought and saved
back.
And I was gonna, like, pay him backwith like a little bit of interest.

(30:41):
I was buying a couple pieces ofproduct a month from him, and
then I would pay him back as they sold.
And there was like over a hundred parts.
And you had suggested,what if we just buy the entire thing,
like right now,
which was
basically like the entireoperating account, but it was the parts
that were selling the fastest,
so they would be back in the accountwithin a month. Yeah.

(31:03):
And it was it was probably the biggestrisk you had taken at that point.
I until like spring bought usbecause yeah, I was thinking,
you know,I have to go a little bit at the time.
And I had like all these fictitious
zeros where this has to be my floorand different stuff like that.
But when you know, somethingis like a surefire thing and it's just
sitting therelike sometimes you got to bite the bullet.

(31:24):
Well, I think the other thing too,
in thatis you didn't have the systems in place.
Do you really do deal with that? Yeah.
Like one of the things we also worked
in the beginning was, and thisthis goes to a practical aspect of like
getting the operations of your business,like where it can run smoothly.
So there wasn't tons of systemsand like, so,

(31:45):
for instance, like when you get, a bunch of inventory in
and it need to be processedand to be ready to be sold,
it would take you a monthto month sometimes.
And we got to that point when we startedgetting the system in place,
we went took stuffthat would take you a month and one day.
Yeah.
And that was a game changer.
Like the amount inventory.
I remember when we hit some of the higher

(32:06):
like when we hit when we had 500 listings.
Yeah.
Which we, we got the second row shooters.
So just trying to edit that, properly.
So anyways, butit was one of those moments that was like.
But we mean the amount of inventory thatgot put on with the systems, it was crazy.

(32:29):
What I love about it isyou'll be celebrated 500 listings, more
than a thousand, 2000, 3000,like just shows.
Yeah.Where our brains were at the time. What?
And the amount of,
like, it got to the pointwhere we were selling more a month.
Yeah.And we were actually we're pretty not.
Yeah.
We were like up for 450 sales,which is insane because that means we were

(32:49):
basically where the store was originally.
When we started, it was what we weremoving, turning the entire store monthly.
Yeah.
But the, which is kind of crazy,but I think one of the things
I want to pointout, like going back to that,
there was a point
when we hit this like we triedsomething really, really risky.
What would the three of you.
Yeah.

(33:10):
So we we I mean,
don't we know
we opened two other storesthat had identical inventory
and we tried different,which we allocated on all three stores.
And it did work at the beginning.
And the thing is we we did look it up.
It was completely
it was completely within the termsof service of a certain company.
Yeah.

(33:31):
But they didn't like it.
And we found out in their algorithmthey didn't like it.
And it turns that real fast.
And we got penalized.
And that acted swiftlyand it literally we lost.
Was it half or two thirds of the storelike overnight.
Oh. And it all got pulled off. Yeah.
Yeah I think it was like I mean it wasthe amount of sales we were doing it

(33:51):
just like cut in, like it was like twothirds of their sales were gone.
Yeah. We call it the crux. The crux. And
but here's,here's the thing about the crux
and that point, it led to againinnovation.
But we we work together.
And I think that that's one of the thingsI think that's a really

(34:12):
important thing that
having that good cohesive team and peopleyou can talk through things with.
Yeah.
But then keep in perspectivebecause that's the crazy thing is, like we
basically went from 30,000a month to 60,000 a month in six months.
And then when we were back to 30,it felt like,
you know, we just hit the iceberg. Yeah.

(34:32):
And you're like,we were here six months ago.
Yeah.
So I think, like,there is that sort of feeling that
the permanence, you know,you know, when you cross a certain
threshold, there's a business
that this is the new normal and this iswe're going to where we're going to be at.
So I think like it's kind of thathold on loosely effect of like be happy,
be grateful.Like celebrate the wins and stuff.

(34:54):
But if you go back towhere you were earlier
this year, it's not,you know, the end of the world.
Yeah. Like,you know how you got there the first time.
It may be a different paththe second time, but it's still possible.
Well, and I think to you it was one ofthose moments to a premium perspective
and looking also at the handcuffswe put ourselves in.
And that was the startof diversifying things as well,

(35:17):
of looking at different avenuesand like even going further than where it
had been, because if,
heaven forbid, you know, the
marketplace that went out of business,then we were just screwed.
We were on one sales channel again.
Yeah, but it was still likeit was obviously bigger
than three customers, but it's still thesame thing, just not being diversified.
Yeah.
And soand I think that's the thing you've,

(35:40):
crushed it at nowsince I've moved on and doing this
as you are diversifying
the heck out of thingsand some of the things we had talked about
in the beginning,
you're now executing and the operatingopportunities have happened.
What do you think?
Okay, moving into this, though,what do you think
was your biggest lessonlearned us working together now?

(36:00):
Honestly, for me.
But like, just like going through
the last several years that we had workedon this and grown the company.
Yeah, I think honestly, like I
had like some pride
in thinking, you know, that I had seen everything it up to that point.
So at this pointnow from working with you,
I take every suggestion, you know.

(36:23):
Yeah.
At least to critically think or try itbriefly and see how it all work and stuff,
instead of just hypothetically thinkingthat you know my ways the best way,
which is terrible.
But I think a lot of business ownerscan fall into that, like I
you were the most involved in the companyout of anybody ever worked with,
and I was terrified of delegating like,anything, you know what I mean?

(36:44):
And that's the way I was with film twobefore, but I feel like I have to do it.
You know, myself, I have to do itthe way that I intended to do it.
And I think that's just like a problem
with not being able to take correctionor be able to collaborate.
If you go in with a mindsetthat you're not willing to change,
then you're wasting people's time.

(37:06):
Yeah.
And and the fact that thingsalways are changing.
Oh yeah. Us.
And I mean, that's the thing too.
With that business, it was you literallyI think for me in that.
I think one of the healthiest ways.
And that's going to sound crazy.
I'm not saying this when it comesto the employees or working with people

(37:26):
that you're directly responsiblefor in order to,
but looking at it as a gamewas such a game changer, am I?
When it came to this stuff?
I remember there's a quote we're in hockeytalks about, in which that board had
where he wanted to get this,I think was a comic book
and he like basically made money out oflike I forgot what it was.

(37:48):
He needed the toothpaste to say somethinglike fake nickels, Nick nickels,
because he literally took itliterally, like, you can make money.
And for a long time on my, my desk,I had monopoly money.
Yeah, because I realized at thatpoint all money really is, is
value for tax.

(38:09):
And so that was a huge game changerwhen I looked at this, because,
you know, eBay was changing.
And still to this day, we'll change thingswilly nilly and not let anybody know.
And also you get an email
and it's just all the termsand things going
like half your business goes in turmoiland you're like, what the heck?
Like and you have to figure it out.
Yeah.
And the even even on the educational side,as far as YouTube

(38:32):
and things are out there, the the format,they don't keep up with it because it.
No, all of them I mean like social media,different stuff, TikTok algorithms,
Facebook I mean, it's all basicallytheir arena and we're playing in it.
So it's likeyou have to constantly be up to date,
which I think is something that I thinkis super valuable to really think through
and put in your mindbecause like, I'm in YouTube

(38:53):
to go away tomorrow, guys, for allyou guys are on YouTube or like whatever,
whatever it is you're doing.
So being able to pivotand be able to look at it
as a game and understand diversifyingand just having this perspective,
I think made it to wherewhen we start having we were just
we treated itlike we were playing monopoly.
Yeah.
And it was funnybecause we're, you know, a lot of times
we're afraid of change and staying staticis actually more dangerous.

(39:17):
Yeah.
We should be afraid of, like, stagnate.
Yeah.Or stagnant mediocrity. The word. Yeah.
One more time.
Like stagnant city.
Yeah. Stagnant water being stagnant. Yeah.
We should be afraid that.
I have mediocrity
to, like,you know, just start getting stuck.

(39:41):
But, you know, here's the thing.
And this is the thing is. Okay?
Like pulling some, like,psychology in this, our brain is always
trying to normalize thingsand make patterns like that.
Human Reiki neural pathways.
And we go through stuff.
It's it's always trying toto get to homeostasis.
We're trying to.
And so I think it's
it's kind of in our natureto try to make things safe and secure.

(40:04):
But I think in business it's never safeand secure.
And I and this
okay.
But so yeah businessI agree with you is diversified secure.
But what I was about like employmentwhich people do see as secure.
I see those as two different typesof danger.
You know.
So like being an employee,
your fate is with the companyand with the boss and with the C-suite.

(40:26):
And if you're a business owner,
your fate is in the market and hopingthat you could provide enough value
for basically the overall ecosystemto validate your existence.
That's pretty much it.
So if I fail as a business owner,like it was my fault.
But if I get laid off, that could be
because they had to pick 5%and they went alphabetically.

(40:47):
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Like,I don't want my fate to be up to something
that's out of my control,which again, is a control thing.
And I think a lot of entrepreneurswe can control.
Yeah. And that's somethingthat we have to recognize.
There's good qualities to it and stuff.
But you know, giving up a little bitof control when you partner with people is
usually beneficial.
And it's it's almost like a pruning. Yeah.

(41:09):
Because if you just work alonefor your whole life, I mean, imagine
if someone comes up and makes youa suggestion 40 years into your business.
No, they won't take it.
No security.
Yeah. Itself is an illusion. Yeah.
And I think, I mean, we're seeingwe we're seeing that right now
in the economy and everythinghow everything is going. Everything.

(41:29):
I mean, it's just.
You have to be confident in yourself.
You need to be confident your abilitiesand providing value in anything you do,
whether you're an employeeor an entrepreneur, where value speaks
and it's it's that simple.
Like, you know, if you're an employee,be the employee
that they don't want to let gobecause you're too valuable.
Yeah. Create.

(41:51):
If you have a business, createso much value
that if people are cutting things,they don't want to cut your thing.
That adds so much value to your life or
that's that's sometimes why it's for me.
I've never been in businessesand I want to start businesses that were,
pleasure type businesses where it's it's,you know, it's like y yeah, want
and never need because I'm like, man,we need businesses to survive.

(42:14):
Survive? Yes.
I mean, I mean, yeah, it justit is what it is.
But like, yeah, I had a finance professorwho said,
I don't know if this is necessarilycompletely true.
I think it's mostly true, but that ifyou took everybody's money away right now,
like we all started fromzero and just had to like start tomorrow,
that within ten years,90% of the people at the top

(42:36):
would be back at the top.
Yeah.
Because it's not.
Guys, this is not it's it's a heart thing.
It's a mind thing.It's a it's a critical thinking thing.
I there's a, there's a part of I, I, I it's hard for me
says because
I'm gonna get myself in troubleand I'm gonna, I'm

(42:57):
going to talk about this later on more.
But I think entrepreneurshipis something that we are.
You're born a it's a skill setyou're born with.
I feel like just like LeBron James.
Like we can help.
I can play basketball,but I can't play like him.
And there's natural things about himthat made him so good at what he's doing.
And it wasn't just like it.
It was his situational stuff.
But it's also his like natural talent.

(43:21):
But I think that's the same waywith entrepreneurs.
There's some same things
I think we're as to be successfulentrepreneurs and business owners.
We are predisposed to that make us good.
But I don't thinkeverybody should start a business.
I think that'sone of the biggest fallacies
that's happened right now,why there's so much failure.
And then 90% failure is because there'speople that should never started there.
Like, I can make a kick betterthan everybody and I'll charge less.

(43:41):
Well, yeah.
Like you don't know how to manage people.
You don't know how to market big company.
I mean, there's so much stuff.
It's earliest ideais, is can I do it cheaper?
Which obviously is a dangerousstarting point.
I don't think everybody should bea business owner by any means.
I think like, definitely kidslike raising young people.
We should have them do the lemonade stand.
Yeah, I think that we should have them dothe garage sale and stuff.

(44:02):
Like they need to understand businessand like be behind finance
so that even just being a general consumerand like a human out in the world,
they understandthe basic business structures.
And you know what?
Who the people they'reinteracting with and stuff.
But yeah, not doing it for your life.
It's a hard road.
Well and and again,I, I can explain this more.

(44:23):
I'm going to be talking about this more.
But the thing is, is thatI think we put too much glory
on being an entrepreneurand small business.
We see them,you know, trotting around, did it.
This is tough.
It's not easy.
The stress, the I've had this,this is my 17th company,

(44:44):
and I, you know,you know, my story of what I went through
when I was a kid to move everything.
What happened to my dad?
And it's like,this is not a life for everyone.
And it's not just pictures, but what I,I guess want to say is to be a number two
or to be like a really strong manager
in a companyor to be an incredibly valued employee.
There's there's amazing things about that.

(45:05):
Oh yeah.
Like it's I think the thing is, is like,we need to find
you need to find your thing, right?
You need to find your thing that you love,
that you're passionate about,that you're good.
The value creates and own it.
And it's hard to be an entrepreneur greatin starting a business.
That's greatif it's not cool and and find ways
to live the life you want to live,you know, instead of just being like,

(45:27):
well, I have to have like,
like most of the timewhen people bring me like,
I don't think about strategies,I'm like, don't.
Yeah, well.
And there are like
for some of those people,there are hybrid models,
like if they work a 9 to 5that they're happy with and, you know,
they teach music lessons on the weekendsand that's their thing.
And they put that moneyin a vacation fund.
And that scratches the edgeof having their own thing.

(45:47):
They could absolutely do that too.
You know, itdoesn't have to be like a binary choice.
Yeah.
And, and and I know that I'm beinga little exaggerated on this thing,
but I do think there's some things to look
throughand think through before you do things.
And my heart behind it is not saying,oh, it's exclusive club. It's
is this the life you want?
Oh yeah. AndI think there's a distinct decision

(46:08):
you need to make beforeyou move into that. Right? Yeah.
Okay.
Nobody post a video of themstaring at the fan at 3 a.m.
on Instagram now.
And I think the fake it to make it thing,I think is really what's we've
we've glorified this business thingand we see all the amazing moments,
not all the stuff.
It's like,
if you, if you, if we laid out
all the terrible thingsthat we've had to face, which,

(46:29):
I mean, that's part of what I wantto eventually get into some of this.
We're going to talk aboutmore of the high level stuff
here and get into somemicro learning in this, but
I don't
I think the everyday person would be like,no, yeah, yeah, I'm going to pass.
No, that's that's not.
So I'm moving in okay.You know, for the first exit ramp.
Yeah I mean that'sthere is a controversial figure,
but his example was basically beingon the highway of business.

(46:51):
And like, every five
miles, there's the exit rampgiving you the opportunity to quit.
And like everybodythat, you know, has a lifelong business
had to just, like, whiteknuckle on the wheel
on a lot of those because, you know,it felt enticing.
Yeah.
Is Andrew Tate.
Yeah. Yeah.
And you don't want to say his nameI said a gotcha is a fear.

(47:13):
Oh, gosh.
I was going to reference Jordan Petersondoing both of those in one podcast, bro.
That's right.
You it's it's you been you, man.
It's a conservative Republican.
You had you had to just say, that's it.
Okay?
You're all
business is, business is.

(47:34):
I don't know you.
He's he's he's a bit off.
Oh my gosh, you guys yellgosh, that's really hilarious
because I'm like sitting here goinglike, well.
I was apolitical.
Like I feel like like but it'sit really is.
This is a it's. Yeah, it really is.
I mean, there's peoplethat have taken like a bold stance

(47:55):
and lost a couple sales and stuff,but for the most part,
I mean, there's plenty of peoplethat don't agree with
Hobby Lobby or Starbucks and shop at both.
Yeah, I there's taking the social stuffout of things, you know.
But anyways, we'rewe just made this go, like, down our path.
I probably will. Yeah. No you're good.
All right.
So talking about risk and and creativeinteresting things that you did,

(48:19):
I think probably one of the moreinteresting, risky things you did
was you actually were one of the peoplethat started an NFT business.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was
that was an interesting thing to watchand be a part of being in the community.
Buying the NFTsand also losing money with the lefties.
We all lost moneyon the people that made money on NFTs.
I like comment please because I good job, good, good job in the market.

(48:43):
I don't want to sell me.
I lost $18,000on a picture of an animated bull,
and I brought my brother down with me.
And you know why we held?
Because we were promised an animated bear.
Oh, wait wait wait.
Let me see what type of bear I got.
I didn't want to talk about theeven in the eagles trade all animals now.

(49:04):
True.
Okay, so yeah, that was such a funny time.
I mean, I had I had lizards, I had yeah.
Raptors, raptors and monkeys, everything.
I mean that was
part of that was leading upto being a father because I was like
three months out from being born,which is the craziest timing of that.

(49:25):
Nothing terrible time to do it.
But also I think like, yeah,when you have a baby on the way and stuff,
like whatever beer you did have stuff downin, you it coming out because, you know,
you have this giant sense of thisimpending accountability coming. So
with being a businessowner, this would be like my biggest piece
of advice is when you get boredwith your business, stick to the business.

(49:48):
Like find a way to expand your flywheelwithin the business you're currently in,
because everybody's temptationis to start a new business.
Yeah.
Which is wild because likeif say like the treadmill you're on stops
and then I'm going to buy a secondtreadmill
and go one foot on each until one of themstarts speeding up again.
Like that's basically what I would do.
So I did music videos because like my lovefor film and I have real growth.

(50:10):
I got my real estateagent license started going with the NFT.
I was selling all of theseall at the same time.
Selling puppies.
Yeah, 70 grand in a year. Corgis.
I mean, it's just weird.
They were cute, but like,that was probably
that was the most annoying thing you did,I think out of all.
And, that was crazy.I think I'm cats, though.
Yeah, it was, but I gosh,

(50:33):
how many times I ask you, I
was like, bro, yeah,I know, I was like, and I got it.
But I was just like, man, yeah,I tried to get you to do it.
No, I know, and I was like, no.
But because I was getting 200 a dogcommission.
And what's crazy is the the monthI told them I couldn't do it anymore
because I was like at my wits end.
Finally, with the buyers,they offered me 400 a dog

(50:54):
immediately,immediately would have gone up 100%.
I never tried to negotiate at any point.
So that's I'm also a terrible negotiator.
But, like,
because I've had to go with themon some of these sales trips.
Yes. Like, but he's you're getting better
because the real estate that's actually,I think helped a lot.
I think that's one of the thingsthat's interesting about the one thing

(51:14):
I will say about everythingyou've done, even skill stacking.
I think that's one of your
strengths, is
you're really good at skill stackingand just continue to learn through it.
And you know, your weakness in that. Yeah.
And you're getting better.
But okay.
So to his benefit, the reason why he failsat negotiating, I'm just going to say it
because he really likes people a lotand I can't I can't fault him for that.

(51:36):
And I'm not saying I don't,but I also I am when I'm negotiating
my trigger that I'm like,okay, let's create a win win.
Yeah.
In this situation
now, granted, both parties would a win winbecause both parties lose a little bit.
Not just all is well I think like I'mnot as good as negotiating
like for myself as I am for other people.
So that's where real estate help meis like, when I'm negotiating for a buyer

(51:58):
as a buyer's agent, I'm like, I'mlooking out for these people's best.
Like, I'm protecting theirthey're like my children for the month,
and you're not goingto, you know, mess them over or whatever.
But when it's me, I'm like, hey,you know, I could deal with this.
Like, if they're going to cut me 10%,I can make it back elsewhere or whatever,
and I just take the fullbrunt of the weight of the negotiation.
And like, I don't think, is thisfair or like, is this in my best interest?

(52:22):
I think, like, can I make this work?
And I've left so much money on the tablewith that mindset.
Yeah. Well, and it's something that
it's the
pain's been enough to where you're likeyou're changing that.
But I think you're always going to be alittle because like, that's one thing you
I don't think you've met a personyou don't like.
And I think that'sone of the your superpowers.

(52:43):
Like you can find somethingabout even them.
I mean, I'll just be honest,I if you're any Graham's a he's
a seven, I'man eight, I'm an eight. Seven.
And some of the most annoyingpeople I'm like, oh my dear gracious.
And he's like,oh they're great. They're fine.
I'm like, bro, bro, like seriously like.
And he just, you justhe always sees the best in people.

(53:03):
And I think that's one of your,
one of your amazing qualitiesthat makes you really good at business.
Because I think it, ityou can work with literally anybody,
but I believe the best about othersis one of my daily things.
I got my little index card,
but I believe the best about othersthat I've found out otherwise.
And then even then, like, I'm not,I'll just keep them at arm's distance.

(53:24):
Well, I mean, within business,I mean, I don't find anybody else
transitioningback to the NFTs on that subject.
I mean, yeah,there was some some definite things.
We'll leave it at that. That happened.
But you the like with the big groupof people dealing with that and people.
Well yeah.
I don't think you couldI don't think you could have
made it through thatunless you were that personally.
We had 90,000 people in our discord.

(53:46):
So it was just like you
are. The problem with NFT is,
is like it was like a digital gold rush,but you were bringing everybody up
to this mint dayand basically think about like,
truly the gold rush of everybodybrushing shoulders and being arm in arm
and they're all winning togetherand every to the moon.
Yeah.
Up until the point that the mineis depleted and then like what happened.
So I think if NFT is ever domake a resurgence, they need to find a way

(54:10):
to not have the communitycompletely disappear after midday.
Because if you have a bunchof original holders
that were with the communitythis entire time, similar to like you're
based support as a businessbecause NFTs are business,
then once the day happens,it all changes hands.
And now you have secondary customerswho don't care about your mission,

(54:30):
don't care about your motto or whatyour, you know, purpose was or whatever.
And now those are your new community, so
you actually lose your core supportand it's replaced with strangers.
And then you're supposed to carry onfrom there.
Yeah.
Well, and I also think the utility utilitypart of the whole thing was really where
everything fell apart.
People are like, we're going to do this.We're gonna do that.

(54:51):
Yeah.
It was basically like third graders,like running for class president.
And you say you're going to swap
the drinking fountain out with Coca Colasince, like you, you're
make big promises and then figure outhow to do it once you get the money.
And normally you're under budget. Yeah.
I it wasn't like I think five differentprojects, five different discords.
And some of the things were laughable.
They were saying like none of uspeople are talking about,
they'd give you Super Bowl ticketsor stuff or something, like on the Queen.

(55:14):
But I think the thing was interesting
about the NFTs as a whole,and what I really wish I had come back,
I think it was a hack for micro investingto get your fund startups started.
Like, yeah, but the thing is,these people just figure out a way
to hack the system and drug poolsand actually build something was lasting.
I thinkif you would have had some quality,

(55:35):
and I think probablythe greatest example of that is Gary
Vee, he is still determined to add valueto his shareholders
and turn it into his all the thingshe's been doing with that.
Yeah, but I think it was a reallyI think it still has potential.
I think it just needs to be approacheddifferently. Right.
And it took the mental barriers offbecause it's like
because the NFTs were so new and so freshand nobody had an upper hand on it

(55:57):
because it was just like a brandnew industry.
People would come in and be like,I'm going to put 90 days into a project,
and if we fully sell out,we'll make $1.2 million.
But if you told them any other business,hey, do you guys want to write a book
and see if we could, you know,sell a million copies or, like, we'll make
an album and drop it and see if we could,you know, get a million in sales.
Nobody thought they could make $1 millionin three months any other way.

(56:19):
Yeah, but for some reason,
this was so new and shiny, it was likewe could make $1 million in three months.
So I got people to believe in themselvesto like a ludicrous level,
which I think ultimatelywas the cool thing.
Yes, until it pulled out the greed.
Yeah, yeah.
Because if the thing is,
if they would have launched a bookand sold a million copies.
Yeah. But then the next timebestseller like, yeah.

(56:40):
And then is functional.
So every NFT that survived,you had to plant roots in industries
that were already developedbecause the retail stuff,
what they found out with then of t
sales is basically, you know,the creator got residuals of every sale.
So like the same 1% of crypto holders
were like the entire marketand it was just a revolving door.

(57:01):
So like as board it went up.
It was the same peopleselling buying selling buying.
Yeah.
And you think there's all this volumeand it's just repeated sales
on the same items
which transitioned into thatbecause we're, you know, we're definitely
in some interesting territorywhen it comes to lessons learned.
Right?
I like actually let's trylet's can you pull a lesson out

(57:23):
for business owners from thisthat you feel like will be applicable?
Because like, I don't see anybodystart an NFT business anytime soon?
Yeah.
I mean, yeah,the lesson I would just say is
don't like,don't get ahead of yourself to the point.
Like we we're going to hire a guy fromBlizzard to like, create a digital game.
You know, we we're like goingand renting conference rooms out.

(57:45):
We were talking about doinglike public meetups and stuff like that.
And this was like months before midday.
So in a way
we were focusing on the wrong things.
Like if we had just been head down
one day at a time, you know,and it's truly like every business.
They said, like two weeks,you know, in in NFT space was a year,

(58:06):
you know, so when we were only outa thousand members in two weeks,
which if you get a thousand followers
on Instagram in two weeks,you're crushing it.
You got a thousand membersin your discord.
In two weeks,they think you already failed. Yeah.
You know, so it's like the cultureis always going to press you to go faster.
I think that if we had started slowwhen we were doing those Genesis auctions,
which we were selling two charactersa week

(58:26):
based on the stories that were coming out,you know, now you're writing a story.
People fall in love with the characters.You sell them, the building.
That's a model to this daythat would still work.
Like if Game of Thrones was,you know, selling a character
after like, every season
or like at the end of the episode,any recurring show was selling characters
or selling story elements, props and stuffthat now you're like,

(58:49):
giving it value through the story itself.
But when you sell100 characters in one shot,
yeah, too much.
But the thing is,I think it was the epitome
of greedand our microwave generation, right?
Where everything has to happenimmediately.
Like instead of billions of dollarsin gambling.

(59:11):
I think as a whole, as entrepreneurs,I think we are gamblers.
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely. And like, we're respectablegamblers.
It's just like it's like.
But everything you do is a gamble.
I mean, it's double or nothingand so anything.
Okay. So you take it. Okay.
Let's.
And we, you know, you guys know who I'mtalking to you as you're watching this.
So you get this idea, right?
And you're like, okay,but we can get to this many.

(59:34):
Let's let's use the subscribers thing.
We can get to you,
you know, 2000 subscribers in a month and,you know, get X amount of money.
This is going to come in a month,two months, six months, right?
Doesn't happen.
What do you do?
You borrow money,you go into it because we're going.
We know it's going to happen.
It doesn't happen again.
You borrow money
and you just continue to double downon something that's clearly not showing

(59:56):
any signs of growth, instead of doublingdown on stuff that actually grows.
Yeah. And in hopes that you hit it.
But the thing is crazy to me is the odds.
I think there's better odds
in Las Vegas on some stuffthat it gets to be an entrepreneur.
We talking about 90% of businesses failand you start looking to break it
down year by year, where the percentagesare businesses that fail.
It's just like, why?

(01:00:19):
But I think, yeah, we get too scaredto quit things that are meant to be quit.
Like when it's time to quit,you know, it's so hard for us to do it and
like my example, always been asking forhelp is literally like a hot air balloon.
You know, like if you're in a hotair balloon,
you're five feet off the ground,you jump out, it's going to hurt.
You're in the sky,
your neighbor,you're going to be all right,

(01:00:40):
you know, and that's the time
when you should ask for helpbecause you get to 50, 100, 200ft
like you jump in.
It's going to be messy up.
Yeah. You know,but that's like what we'll do.
We'll wait till the absolute last minutebecause, like, we think we're somehow
being braver by staying it alone,which you're reducing your odds

(01:01:00):
significantly of getting out of it,which ironically enough, I think
is a great segue,talking about Defeat Money Collective.
And part of what we're trying to buildis it's a free community,
just so you guys know.
And it's, it's it's trying to fight thatbecause there's stats that have come out
that basically say
80% of us as entrepreneursdon't tell anybody about our struggles
or problems or any of those things.

(01:01:20):
48 and also,now you're in this place where, like,
like how do you get out of this stuff?
You get yourself in situationsthat could have been reversed.
And so part ofwhy we're doing this podcast,
if you watch the first episode,I can get into detail about this, but
is that we need to break throughand create a community
where we can actually havereal, authentic conversations
and not just brag about all the thingswe've done,

(01:01:42):
but talk about the failuresand talk about the things.
Yeah, the lessons we can learn
and get the help we need nowand still and until it's too late,
So while
90% of businesses still failingafter decades of experience.
We are some of the best problem solversin the world yet.

(01:02:02):
The numbers haven't changed. stop.
It is insane not to recognizethat the rate of 90% failure
in business is too high.
Entrepreneurship is hard,but when your business closing
is more of a guarantee than its successes,we all need to wake up.
Rebellions startwhen enough people realize together
that something has to changeor will probably get worse.

(01:02:26):
It is time to do something.
We need to rebel against this failure.
Insanity.
Will you join this collective
of like minded entrepreneurswho want to see you succeed?
Will you join?
Defeat Nike today?
right?
Yeah.
I mean, I just kind of likewith what we were talking about with

(01:02:46):
finding other businesses and stuff.
I got an Airbnb because I feel like we hadhit a glass ceiling with our business,
and I thought thatthat was the easier route then, you know,
doing the complex innovationsthat we would have had to do at that point
with the sales channels,which was a mistake. But
when I did the Airbnb, I put the entireremodel on an American Express card.

(01:03:07):
So I had a platinum American Express card.
Oh my gosh.
Then I had 18 months, 0%
interest and I got it to $92,000, and
I had no plan on how to pay it off,which is dumb.
This is the first timeI've ever done this.
I don't even want a credit card.
Now, but got to 92,000.
This is like November 3rd and November15th.

(01:03:30):
That's going to come doand then retroactively start the 24.99%,
which meansI would have been royally screwed.
So you didn't tell anybody.
Tell anybody about nobody? No.
So and so like I told my wife right then,but it was like November
13th was two days before the credit cardcame due November 15th.

(01:03:51):
And I bought my sister's housebecause she had equity in it
and I cash out refi and got her as atenant, and I used the equity of her house
to pay off the credit cardtwo days before it came due.
And like the two weeks leading up to that,I was thinking of every possible thing
I could to, like,get myself out of this bind
other than like literallyhaving to file bankruptcy.
And I'm like laying in bedlooking at the fan.

(01:04:14):
It's like 4:00 in the morning.
And I told my wife,I think I messed the money up
like that.
So is that a she's that I was strappedas a maybe like I'm a
I think we need to buy my sister's house.
And she was like,how does that make any sense?
And I was like, well,we have a lot of debt
and if I buy my sister's house,then I won't have the interest,
whatever mortgage.But it's whatever she's like.

(01:04:34):
So if we're strapped in, buyinganother house is the answer.
I was like,that's the only thing I could think of.
And she was like, well,I guess we got to buy a house.
And two weeks laterwe buy my sister's house.
Oh my gosh,can you imagine being like, yeah.
So bottom of the Canyon of Doubtand you buy a house.
Well, and okay,so I'm kind of finishing this story
and this whole craziness that was thislike you're about ready to get out

(01:04:57):
and be completely.
Yeah.
Both plan now and planand you're going to be above zero.
Like you're going to actuallymake money off of it, which is like wild.
Yeah.
Because I remember oh, God.
Yeah, I just remember.
Okay, okay.
Since we're being, like,talking about this,
you didn't even tell meyou bought the house.
No. Yeah. You're on vacation.

(01:05:18):
Because, like, he knew I was like,he did not want me to know,
because been, like. That's a shame. Okay.
No, I just told me.
Got back. I was like,I bought a house or you're gone.
I was like, you didn't.
Also, my AirbnbI bought while you're on your trip.
So both houses I bought while you're gone.
Yeah. Safe distance.
You couldn't stop mebecause I like, like,

(01:05:39):
he knows me well enough,and you guys will get to know me. I'm.
That's the part of having to experience.
Like, I had to learn my lesson.
Yeah, the hard way.That's just how we are.
Which most of us would.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that pride.
I mean, it's interestinghow probably the downfall,
you hear that statement, but it's so truebecause it was a form of pride.

(01:06:00):
You wanted to prove yourself.You wanted to do this stuff. Yeah.
And ultimately there'sconsequences to that. And,
even in even from the perspective thatyou were able to figure the things out.
Right. And you got.
But I'd never seenyou more stressed in my entire life of.
Yeah, friends. Yeah.
I meant the actual emotionaland mental toll you went through

(01:06:21):
was I literally I don't
it was the closestI, I don't have to say this like
for you.
And this is just watchingyou go through this.
This was the toughest thingyou've ever gone through your life.
Oh, yeah.
It was definitelythe toughest season in my life.
But the crazy thingtoo, is like at one point
I was like, I don't likeI felt like a shell of a person.
So I went, got my hormones checkedand my prolactin levels,

(01:06:44):
which is, you know, yeah,the byproduct of stress was so high
that they told meI either had a brain tumor
or like I was a pregnant womanbecause it was like 49
and we're supposed to be between like zeroand three as an adult man.
And I rememberhe told me that I was like, dude,
like, you gotwe got to figure this out. Yeah.
So I like legit. Was that burnout?
So then I took a week offand then I went and got a massage

(01:07:07):
and like, had an old fashion and went inand was like, take it again.
Like take my hormones again.
Obviously I prayedand then I came back at 2.9
and they were like, okay,well you're good.
So I'm like, well, it's obviously wasn'tany of the stuff that you guys said.
But they said, like, stress wise,they've seen people get into the low
20s, you know, but never 49.

(01:07:28):
Yeah. So yeah, that was my actual limit.
But that wassome of the stuff was a wake up call
for you to make the changeand all that stuff. Yeah.
Because I think okay,
so let let's kind of summarizeand then I'm gonna jump into some more,
some finishing questions, some more tactile stuff on this. But.
At this point you've been growing.

(01:07:49):
Therehasn't been there have been some rest,
but it hasn't been that much risk.
No. And you, everything's gonewell for you.
Really? Yeah.
And that led to you being bored
and taking these really way bigger risk.
Yeah. Well, when I was 13 in 2008.
So, you know,I don't remember any of that.
Like it's stuff like that out.

(01:08:09):
So you if you're put into a marketthat only goes up.
Yeah.
You're going to thinkyou're a genius in 2020.
We crushed it because of things.And our 2020.
Yeah.
Our market basically goesbizarre hyperbolic, hyperbolic.
The economy's down. Yeah.
The need based.
So all this stuff you've got to this pointwhere there's risks and your feelings
lessons like it's how would you say it'sforever changed you as a person.

(01:08:33):
How you going to go forward.
So it's definitely changed me.
I mean it's changed what I would doin the future and also like what I want.
Like this is like going to sound weird,but I don't want to be wealthy in the way
that people think wealthy is like,because you and me
got the shipping down to where we werebasically Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
You're working 20 hours a week?

(01:08:53):
Yeah. First half of the day,working together and stuff.
So I was still trying to like narrow thatdown, which doesn't even make any sense
because it would became a game of like,how efficient can we get this?
And then I was thinkinglike the last little bit,
if I could make that upwith a rental property that I'm done.
Yeah.
And stuff, which makes no sense.
Well, even like,I mean, because I had other things

(01:09:14):
I was working on other clientsand whatnot, but like,
I got kind of
sucked into that too, of just like,I know, just just chilling.
Because for me, I think that'sthe difference between our stories.
Like from my story,I've hustled, I've had 100 hour weeks
not seen, like you didn't have that stuff,but like I have done the craziness
in my entire life

(01:09:35):
and it was just kind of nice to like,see us be, like, crazy, successful.
And you just chill is like, right?
Yeah, it was kind of interesting,but you deserved.
Yeah.
The rest of it, I mean the yeah, it was.
Yeah.
The thing that I want nowlike I want all of the money that I earn,
you know, whether it's a lot
or a little bit to go towardsthe things that I want it to go towards.

(01:09:57):
You know,I want the, the monetary control of
like what I want to investin, like investing in my family,
investing in missionslike investing in the people around me.
But like a large percent of my moneywas going towards interest.
I mean, we have car loans, bankloans, payroll houses.
It's like when you do your taxesand look at all
that interest that went out the door,like the idea of getting debt free.

(01:10:19):
Like I don't have a car payment now,my car is owned.
I want to pay my house offas quick as I can,
and I don't want my moneybeing siphoned out.
Yeah,
and if that looks like
in the end of the day,I'm making 50,000 a year, it's all my 50.
Yeah, you know what I mean?
I don't want to make 200 and keep 80.
We have to look at as entrepreneursas defining our success.
Right. Because,

(01:10:41):
you know, you have the Dave
Ramsey mentality where, you know, debtand you just do all the stuff now.
But I'm also recently burned,you know, for sure for sure.
But that, you know, people would say,and and I would agree with this,
that really makes it hardto grow a business quickly if you.
Yeah. And scale. Right.
There's sometimes there's need for it.
But the problem iswe've gotten so dependent on debt

(01:11:04):
and we've gotten so dependent on tryingto make things do things really fast.
Yeah,that we don't balance that super well.
Right. Yeah.
And like I want to sayI don't think debt is a bad thing.
What I think we should use debt foris the sure things, you know, like
if you know that if I get this,you know, piece of equipment,
I can make gelato twice as fastand I could,

(01:11:25):
you know, have two guys workinginstead of three or whatever.
You have a purchase orderand the numbers make sense. Yeah.
And you can do thatand absolutely do that.
What I think entrepreneurs fall intois almost like playing blackjack, right?
Yeah.
If I'm out downstream
and I'm playing blackjackand I'm got 200, I'm down to my last 40.
A lot of times I'll bet the whole 40on the next hand, because in my mind,

(01:11:46):
I'm not thinking about, like,if I lose this hand, I'm done.
I'm thinking if I'm back at 80,I could get back to 200.
Yeah.
Which I did that multiple timeswith the business where
it was a dangerous move, like,I'm going to buy, you know, 20,000
and see if I can make 40
when there was opportunities to buy fiveand definitely make a.
Yeah. And you could do that 3 or 4 times.

(01:12:07):
But for some reason we think likethe shorter path is the safer one.
So if you're going to have
a line of credit or borrow money,I'd say do it for the slow and steady
and get back to your footing.
Don't try and likebet the farm on some big deal because like
at that point you're just putting yourselfin an exposed position.
Yeah, or just grow it slow.
Yeah.

(01:12:28):
And it's not glamorous and exciting,but it freaking works, man.
I tell you what.
Like one of my favorite things is,like when I see companies do presales
where things take an idea
and see if the market even wants a loan,they sell it and they're like,
well, thereyou go. Yeah, it's fun to the product.
These people are happy there,you know, and
and there's creative ways to financethings without having to do that.

(01:12:49):
But the thing is we get so
fixated
on what we want, how we want it,instead of
really getting to what we really wantand what we need.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, I know it sounds funny, but like wesometimes we blow past our hearts
because our brain gets going on things
of like knowing your why.
I think so importantbecause now that you know,

(01:13:10):
like you, okay,like I want to be in control of your money
and how you investand live your life right?
But it shapes how you deal with moneygoing forward.
Yeah.
And how you grow your businessbecause you don't necessarily
to grow your business super fast
might actually put you in in a positionwhere you're actually against your values.
Right? Yeah. And that's something that

(01:13:32):
that now that youknow that then you're going to violate.
Yeah.
That's where stress comes from,I think, is when you are on a path
that doesn't alignwith who you want to be,
you know, because you and me have bothwhen we're in it, like our heart's in it,
we could work extremely hard and stillfeel fulfilled and still feel healthy.
It's like.
And then you could have timeswhen you feel unhealthy
and you're not workingas hard as you used to,

(01:13:53):
and it's because you're not in the vein.
So it's like with like this, you know,you could do the free 90, you could work
100 hours a week,like you're saying and feel awesome.
Yeah. Because this is what you love to doin this way.
You want helpingpeople. Yeah. So I think with
with borrowing money, like
with medicine, they callthey call it the lowest effective dose.

(01:14:15):
So that means like if they can put you on
like a pillthat five milligrams is going to work,
they're not going to start you on 20.
And I think that's how we should treatthat, especially at the beginning.
Like say you wanted to start a coffee shopand you have to borrow $30,000,
but they say you're approved for 75.
Take the 30
because the 75 when you didn't earn itand have to put it away in the bank.

(01:14:37):
We it's almost impossiblefor a business owner
to respect the money that they were given.
Yeah.
You know, because it's like at that point,
if they put the 75,000,they completely deck out the coffee shop.
You made purchases and splurged on stuffyou wouldn't have splurged on otherwise.
If it was, you're 75.
And that's where I thinkwe can get enslaved by institutions, is

(01:14:58):
when they give us more money than we needand we think, okay, well, I'll use the 30
in the coffee shop, 20 to pay off my car,tend to go on vacation.
You better hope thatfirst month of coffee.
You do really well. Yeah. And it's funny.
There's a bookI mean, I'm blanking on the name,
but it's it's basically comparing,two different startups.
One that was bootstrapped,one that was financed.
Yeah. And.

(01:15:21):
I think it'sinteresting when they had all the money,
they failed to actually talkto the customer and interact with them
because need to get their moneyright away.
When you're bootstrappingand you need to make sales, they're like,
okay, like, yeah, you buythis thing, you're sucking the innovation
out of these businesses when you knowthey are comfortable from day one.
Yeah, we should be comfortable day one.

(01:15:41):
You shop, but you need to hustleand and hustle is the wrong word
because I really I've come to like,not like that word.
Yeah. It's
it's put to put the action and the thingsthat are actually gonna get you
value back.
It's creating that valueand finding what your customers need and,
and doing the hard work,which is hard sometimes.

(01:16:02):
You know,
I think that's a good way to kind of liketransition into these other questions
I want to ask you, I think, would this bea clear enough statement? Is.
You learn the value of money.
You learn the value of a company throughall the from the having little risk
to taking great risks of what it all meansand what it means for you.

(01:16:24):
Oh yeah, I never said
I mean, there's the saying that 5000isn't a lot to have, but it's a lot to.
Oh, and that's the truth thing.
Like when climbing back out of a holemakes you, you know, watch your step.
Yeah.
This journeyyou've gone through as an entrepreneur.
It's definitely

(01:16:44):
been something that's stretched youas far as I feel like more
on the emotional side than anything elsefrom it, from an intelligence perspective.
Like, you're crazy intelligent, like,
but from me it's been more of the risktaking,
balancing it outwith knowing the right moves to make.
Yeah. So I'd say like

(01:17:06):
overall the the
difference is likeI have a more respect for this business
and the market in general,
but also like have more empathyfor other business owners
that when they're in a time of crisis,like I go to the gym, I work out a lot.
I hear a lot of different stories
from like the people that I brushshoulders with and stuff and like,
it sounds messed up, but I thinkbeforehand, before I ever had experiences

(01:17:28):
with like debt or sales being downor like a downward trajectory,
I thought it could never be me,which is terrible,
but it's almost like when you hearsomebody,
like getting a crazy accident
or, you know,they pop their tire or whatever,
like it'sall these like different situations
that don't sound like theywhat happened to you?

(01:17:48):
Or we think we're like the main characteror something.
And now it's like, I knowit could happen to me because it did.
Yeah.
And if somebody else is in the same boat,then I don't think like, oh,
they must have messed up.
Or maybe they're not a good business or
I just think there's a million factorsthat could have contributed to this.
And most likely I don't know the story.
Well, I think I think back to when,

(01:18:10):
you know, you'd met me
like a couple years,
three years after my one of my companiesdidn't do really well.
And we were, you know, you'd totalmy total debt that I have.
And it was it was high.
I mean, it was I think I was at that time,I was like, I'll just leave it at that.
It was high. Yeah.
It is still.
Yeah. Max.

(01:18:31):
Right. Yeah. No, it's more in the Amex.Okay.
And.
You're like, how in the world?
Like you literally were like, I'm like.
And the thing is, all of that wasnone of that was like, frivolous.
That was like trying to bootstrapand grow the thing and made some missteps

(01:18:52):
on how to do that business.
And that's some stuff I want to talk to you, talk through in a later, episode. But
the thingis, is like, it can happen to anybody.
Yeah.
And really, here's here's a stat for you.
How much do you thinkthe average debt load an entrepreneur has?
It's outside the house, outside of carsand all that.

(01:19:17):
The 50,180 day.
Yeah, that's the average debt load.
That's sort of this small business.
Whatever. You know? Yeah.
So you think about that, like,
I think we like an average houseI think of right now is like, why?
It's like 425 or something like thatin the United States.
It takes 30 years to pay that off.

(01:19:38):
It's half of a house.
Yeah. That you're expected to pay off
five, ten years or go bankrupt.
Well, and a lot of people I mean, yousee your business as almost like a child.
So it's like, you know,you do anything for your kid stuff.
And it's like you, we've all seen familiesand stuff where they have
like a troublesome teen or something,and they've spent

(01:20:00):
a ton of resources trying to, like,get them back on their feet and stuff.
And you never know.
It's like if one more tripor one more visit or, you know,
one more outingis going to be the breakthrough.
Yeah, then I can't give up now,because then it's like all the stuff
you've done up tothis point is meaningless for nothing.
So it's almost like, yeah,there's like this huge teeter totter and

(01:20:21):
all of our efforts are on one sidetrying to tip the scale,
but there's a curtainand we can't see what it's going to take.
Yeah, but I think that's thethat's the why I'm so passionate
about the 90. Is.
Everything I've learnedare normal pitfalls we all go through.
I had to learn the hard way.

(01:20:42):
For instance,the same one you went through and I tried.
We we talked about I tried to, you know,you only borrow money
when you're on the upswing of things,right? Yeah.
You know, never try to catch you.
You never try to catch knife.
It gets it inevitably, you'renot gonna catch it based on the odds.
Right.
And I think I see that more
and more as I look back at the mistakesand things.

(01:21:04):
I, I made. And they were like,
if we could talk
about that, if you could have, like, runthe things past people.
But we typically don't have anybodyto run things past.
You did.
But it was that pride thing.
So I think there's two sides of that coin.Right.
So there's a part of like, okay,I'm just being real gut with you guys.

(01:21:25):
Some of you guys have community.
You can talk to youif you have best friends and people,
you can talk to you,but you don't because I pride.
And then there's the other side of youpeople that don't have anybody.
And we're trying to remedy that,but we're also trying to remedy
having the conversations about thisbecause
if we can get rid of our pride.
Yeah.
Well, like, that's another thingis I'm obviously willing to share it

(01:21:47):
now that I feel like I'm out of the woods,but I think it's hard to share
when you're in the middle of it,you know what I mean?
Like, we'll talk about it in the past,
historically, like,oh, this is what happened.
This is how I got through.
But when you're in the actual run of itis when you need the help the most.
Why do you think that is?Because it doesn't make any sense.
I don't know, I mean, I had even mentorsand friends that were willing to

(01:22:09):
go through and say, like,they would do an audit and stuff.
And I actually thought,
I'm going to get my business healthy,and then I'll have them do the audit.
So my business looks good too.
Makes no sense.
It's literally like a like somebodysaying that they'll get baptized
once they feel like,you know, they're right with God.
It's like you get baptized as the start,you know what I mean?
We literally go through the transformation

(01:22:32):
at the beginning,not once you feel like you don't need it.
Yeah.
I think
it's hard to meet where week.
When you think about the peoplethat are entrepreneurs right.
We're more Type-A,more driven, more risk averse,

(01:22:53):
very strong willed, self-starters
to be able to say.
And I left up.
Yeah. Right.
I mean that that takes a lot humility.
And I don't know, maybe I'm wrong on this.
I know for me now 40,
I'm trying to realize it's young,it's not old, it feels old sometimes.

(01:23:14):
But as you are not and,
There's such a humilitythat's happened in my life
through everything I've gone through.
And I wonder sometimesif that's that humility.
To be vulnerable, to admit, to ask help,
to talk through things, to,

(01:23:35):
really take a closer
look at where I failed at myself.
My character flaws or things. Yeah.
As why now I'm going to be the mostsuccessful I've ever been in my life.
I've had.
I've had definitely had some opportunitiesthat had been crazy,
but I hubris,I think, really stopped me from it.
And I think

(01:23:56):
maybe that's
I think that's a keypart of why when I talk about
because we're in jump
to that in a second about the character,I think sometimes it's wrong for me,
it's been my self discipline that'skept me back from being more successful.
And I think we all have
those character flaws, and I think pridedefinitely can be one of those things.
And yeah, so okay, wrapping this up

(01:24:17):
and because I have a list of questionsI can I won't go through,
is there anything in your entrepreneurentrepreneur journey
that you really would like to share?
I think it's important that I've missed.
Yeah.
The main thing I would say is I like
everybody wants to be like original,right?
Like everyone wants in a way to reinventthe wheel or reinvent the industry.

(01:24:40):
But I think all of us being on ourjourney, even if we're in an industry
that's old, you know,like what I came into, I'd been around for
almost a century and stuff.
We don't have to be the first oneto do it to make it our own, you know?
So all of these different changesand the experiments that we're trying
and the ways we findhow to do things better, more efficient,

(01:25:01):
or even just to make the job more funsometimes that's what
makes it like our own thing.
So we don't have to be pioneersin the sense to be the first ones
to do something.
We can just do it differentlyor do it better.
But because I got into the same businessas my dad, like, that's why
I sometimes try a bunchof other businesses, because I felt like

(01:25:22):
I had to have a thing, a businessthat was my own thing.
But part of what keeps businesscompetitive and what,
you know, keeps our countrysuccessful is the younger generation
gleaning off of the older generationswisdom and finding new ways to do things.
So just because an industryhas been around for a long time,

(01:25:43):
or it feels overly saturated,doesn't mean that there's not
room to grow and continue to innovate.
Yeah, I've always think about like this
adjacent thought in this,
a great leader
leans down so that someone can step
on their shouldersand go higher than they did.

(01:26:03):
Yeah,
and I think that.
Again, it goes
back to the pride of why are you doing it?
And yeah, I think I think you're right.
I think there's a, the placethat where I can just learn
and grow and innovate from that part.
But I think it comes down to yourcharacter, your heart, where you're going.

(01:26:26):
And I think that's awesomethat you're recognizing that.
And who knows what comes from that.
No, absolutely.
Well, in that your businessesin your life, like it's
the motor in the vehiclethat you live life through, but you think
if your daily program is eight hoursa day, so 16 hours.
So we we make the work the day.

(01:26:48):
Yeah. In our life and yeah.
So today was a bad day or a good dayis based off the eight hours of work
which is actually trading a third of lifefor the two thirds.
That truly is life.
Yeah.
Which is really hardbecause I've met those business owners.
That work is life.
Work is life, and they fail.
And now I think that our failure.Would they.
Yeah.
Like to see your morningand your evening as margin of the work day

(01:27:12):
makes life work.
And that's the people that livefor Saturday.
Yeah.
Well and it's interesting you have thisidea of a hustle culture has come out.
And I feel likesome people have pulled back
a little bit on that because it was justso, you know, and this crazy schedules,
some of the
stats prove that, like to have thatrelaxation, to have that time for yourself

(01:27:34):
actually makes you more productivewhen you're working.
But like at the end of the day, like,what are you working for?
Yeah.
You know, granted, like with this,I can put a tons of time into it
because I'm changingand making a difference.
But even then,
if I don't have health in me,

(01:27:55):
even if I'm fulfilled and joyful on this,
but if I don't take the time to developmy character development myself,
have time to relax and refill myself,what do I have to give?
Yeah, and that's something I thinkit's really important to think about.
Absolutely.
Okay, so let's jump into some of these, what drives you as an entrepreneur?

(01:28:16):
Well, now it's like
my family, my kids.
You know, it's just basically the ideathat,
buying back the time with them and
being able to give them cool experiencesand stuff
with the travelingand kind of making our home together,
you think I do like I wake upin the morning sometimes it's like 530.

(01:28:39):
I don't feel like leavingthat as a 530 in the morning.
I like my resume and like,you know, dinner for dinner for the Lord.
Mainly just.
Yeah, having a
that kind of responsibilityin the provider.
Yeah.
Small question that do you is,
is teaching her to beand her kids to be entrepreneurs.
Is that something that you're goingto. Yeah, absolutely.

(01:29:00):
I think that would be super cool with her.
Like like I said, I'll kind of
see how she does within and stuff,but I would love for her
to have like a little small business,like one of the Kinsmen Knights.
He said that when his kids turned 15,he, like,
helps them all start a small businessjust to see how it goes.
But yeah, like one of his daughters sonkeychains on Etsy.
And then, like another girlmade a website that you know,

(01:29:24):
had some photo effect app on there,and they were trying to drive
traffic to it and stuff, and they all madelike a couple hundred bucks.
But like I said, the,
you know, like they have the entrepreneurspark them, making money,
you know, in any form other than tradinga chore could unlock it for them.
Yeah.Or just understanding the value of money.
Yeah.

(01:29:44):
I think that lesson you learnedfrom your dad
taking all the wayback to the very beginning
of trading time for money.
Yeah, that's changed your life.
So they can understand thatconcept can be huge.
Yeah.
Well I set up like a playroom at my shopand stuff.
So like I took the office rug
and like we had beanbagsand a chair in there and stuff
so she could come to worksometimes to see me at work and stuff.

(01:30:06):
That's fun, fun.
What legacy do you want to leave?
Like everything's done on your tombstone.
Yeah, let's let's move a little more.
But let's just the think of a day like,what do you want to be known for?
I mean, I definitely want to be man,
that people would say I loved God,but like, also

(01:30:27):
when I continue to
like I said, it's Mark Patterson's quote,but I love it.
He said he wants to be like the sparkto ignite other people's dreams.
Now, I've had like a couple people,like my friend
Josh, Marianne and then like true it Bray
that are like creative guys where,you know, when they were getting started,
I was able to come and support themand kind of be a spark.

(01:30:48):
Yeah.
And you see like the dividends of that,you know, over the years of them
continuing to chase their dreams and stuffand small things like me
and Josh shot for you, my dear,which was like a 15 minute film.
It took me two weekends, and he's gone onto write like ten screenplays
and got like onefirst award and goes to film festivals.
He's moving to Austin to pursuefilm full time, and he can't.

(01:31:12):
Just as that first short film, you know,you showed me like did all this
and I'm like, how could it keephow could it still be doing that?
You know, that was five years ago.
So it's like you can do one thing that,
you know, cost you two weekends.
That could end up being like a pistonin their engine of their dream.
That just continues to go, yeah.

(01:31:34):
And like, and if we have that opportunity,why would we not do that?
Well and I think realistically,
especially if you have employees, you havethat opportunity every single day,
whether I mean,I know you want to keep good employees,
but sometimes peopleare just meant to do something more.
And if you could be part of that story,that's pretty a beautiful thing.
Oh, yeah.
You know, one thing I do want to say,because we didn't

(01:31:56):
really get into a little, but his filmcareer has been pretty, pretty awesome.
He's you've had, like,a several of your films get
then nominated in or win awardsand film festivals all around the world.
Yeah.
So like,you're no, no slouch yourself in that.
I mean, eight movies in a row real good.
The only name you can actually plug.

(01:32:16):
Yeah. That's it.
Yeah. All right.
This is their secret in the Martino group.
Yeah.
He is a real estate agent, too.
Yeah, we didn't actually say that.
Yeah,I got into real estate because I wanted to
come on the market and do their bidding.
Be. And kind of always knowwhat's going on.
Yeah, I know, yeah. Closingquite a few us.

(01:32:36):
You were one of the top agents last year,so which is really funny.
But we even mentioned that, like,another successful part.
But that's a, that's a tough that's aoh my gosh,
I learned so much about customer serviceand stuff.
I mean, because for 30 days you're
these people'sthat are like their best friend
and their punchingbag and their confidence and

(01:32:58):
I mean, and you end up being
at the closing table and be like, dang,we went through like emotional turmoil.
They go, so it's like you end upbeing good friends with your realtors.
Like, even though it's just one month,like you were family for a month.
Well, and you know, it's not a two month.
Yeah, I was gonna say it's not likeyou won't see them again.
No, but it's also the largest decisionmost people make, most large purchase
that anyone makes in their life.

(01:33:19):
So yeah, especially when they come upagainst obstacles that would
otherwise have fallen throughand be able to save the deal.
Feels good.
Moving along,
what's the greatest roadblockyou're still facing right now in your life
as far as failure?
And like, the idea of workingthrough things of yourself?

(01:33:41):
Yeah, I'd say like. So,
motivationas far as consistency goes, like,
I've seen the graphicswhere it'll have like 12 circles,
you know, and one's full and half full,a little bit full over the top.
And then they're all together
and it says like,this is what consistency looks like.
Because I think like people expectto be like on 100% like every day.

(01:34:05):
And when they have 2 or 3 daysthat they're not on. Yeah.
And they feel like,oh, like I'm not consistent.
I've lost and stuff.
And I used to saylike like I'm not consistent.
But I think now like we gothrough seasons and stuff.
So I'm sure you have the same thingwith like the finale and stuff.
If you have days that you're on and stuffand then days that you're not.
I like try to lean into that waveand stuff.

(01:34:28):
Like the other day, I didn't feel like
like doing new listings,and I had a note in my phone
that was all of the shelf labels,
and that was like a simple, mindless taskthat I needed to get done.
I went through and I did all of those.
So like, my biggest block has been just
forcing myself through the off days,that doesn't make sense.

(01:34:49):
It's like,let's basically understand that there's
going to be highs and lows and ridethe wave of what type of day it is.
Yeah, I like I think that's a really good
hack in life because I feel like it'ssomething I'm working more diligent on.
We were actually just talking about thata little bit ago.
I think this has been 7 to 7 part of usthat like shiny

(01:35:09):
object syndrome and like being inspiredto call people every time.
Yeah, yeah.
Like it'sjust mainly it's one of those things. But
but the thing is, is like when you I thinkthis is more of caveat of understanding.
You understand your personalityand understanding how you work.
I'm, I always bring it back to, Enneagrambecause I feel like it's
just a good starting point.

(01:35:29):
It's not the end all be all,
but it definitely bringsso understanding to things.
Yeah. And
like some people can just power through.
I am not that person like I like I had,but when I'm motivated,
dude, I will crush a bunch of tasks
way like way faster and harder tasks.

(01:35:50):
And the average person will, you know,and most of what I do is creative
and that's such a hard thing to just likesummon, like be creative, you know?
Well and time, time and effort are
basically like, separate, you know,
I mean, we think sometimes likeif an eight hour day
is going to be the best,but if six hours with maximum effort

(01:36:13):
is better than eighthours, that 50% effort,
like you taught me, that even when we werewith the marketing agency is like
we had some mornings where we came inand everybody was off
and we'd all be like,just trying to like, power through.
And you wouldliterally stand up and be like,
all right, we're all going to breakfast.
And we would go to scramblersfor 45 minutes,
and then we would come backand crush the day. Yeah.
And the 45 minutes was 1,000% worth it,because if we had all just done that

(01:36:38):
through the whole day and, and didn'tdo what we needed to do, then it's like,
no way we would have gottenthe same amount of step done.
And it's it's it's such a.
There's such a guilt mindset, right,of like I think it goes back to school,
goes back to some of these other sectionswe put ourselves in
life of like, well, you do thisduring this time and like, like I'm, I'm

(01:37:02):
now well, I always say this,
I'm, I'm getting rid of the weekend.
I'm reshuffling my week to be
more of how
it makes sense productivity wise,of how I'm actually feeling
if I'm having a really good weekendas far as like,
like I'm going to flow state,you're going to work through

(01:37:24):
and I'll take like a Wednesday offor like I went to
Branson, went to the city yesterdayand spent the day in Branson like,
but I had crushed it and work really hard,you know, throughout the entire week.
And so I'm trying to actually
make my time work for meversus me be a slave to my schedule.
And I think that
the only thing that comes into playsome people

(01:37:46):
obviously you have people that have,you know, they're you're
that people that you're working withthat are subject to those schedules.
And some of you have kidsand that makes it tough.
And I'm in a really unique place right nowwhere I can really have that freedom.
But but you can still be
thoughtful of that. So.
All right.
And then the other thingwhich this is just goes into everything.

(01:38:07):
But you know what I said, like
the only time you should really feelguilt is if you think that
you left it on the table, you know,like at the end of the day, if you didn't
give it your all,like when I have closings that
have led to closings in my careerthat did fall through, and I've had deals
that went south and stuffwith my other business and everything.
So like, I'm to the point now, I don't

(01:38:31):
put any shame myselfif I did everything I could.
Yeah, because I used to be myself up,even if I did everything I could.
Yeah.
You know, like I would
go to the cross, do all the stupid stuffand then the closing fall through,
and then I still feel the shame of like,oh, man,
there must have been something elsethat I missed or something.
And now, like,I could generally wash my hands of it
and be like, if I did everything

(01:38:52):
that I was able to do with
the resources that were available to me,and it still didn't work.
Then who else could have done it?
It just wasn't meant to be. Yeah.
You know,and that's only if I truly believe that.
Like but that is my motivators.
Just like if if it's going to fallthrough, it's going to be because
I tried to see it through on every angle.

(01:39:12):
And at that point,even then, I'd say like, I mean,
I think that's a great placeto, to, to to put yourself and,
you know, you've given your all.
But sometimesI think we have to be careful
to about the expectation what all is.
Yeah.
That's that's good too, because sometimes
I think we can put ourselves on a trapand be like me, I yeah, I mean, I was
I answered the phone at 1130 at night,which is, is that healthy?

(01:39:36):
No. Definitely not.
So yeah.
And I and I say thatso I think I like that idea.
But you need to combine it with boundariesright.
That's.
Yeah. Absolutely.
Yeah. And I think from a perspective of
I think that's one of the big
things we all struggle withand entrepreneurship is boundaries.
Yeah.
And even in like what
I just said, like like crazylike we hear all these friends and stuff

(01:39:58):
that say they have like a terrible bossand work some like a slave driver,
and then we're like asometimes worst boss to ourselves.
Yeah.
I mean, I think if yeah, if you'rewriting your schedule for the week
and you just look at itand just be like, what I like,
make a friend work this schedule,

(01:40:18):
you know, as like a, like a filter.
What I put somebodyI love through this schedule.
But then that begs the question,how many weeks in a row
that, you know, like, well,this is how it always works, right? Like
I have to get it done.
Yeah, I have these things.
This has to be done.
And then I ask you, well,why did you put yourself like
I we've, we've talked about thisfor every, for every. Yes.

(01:40:42):
You say you're sayingno to something else. Yeah.
Do I tell youmy whole procrastination test?
No. But I took the procrastination test
on, like, one of my little brain apps,
and it said my procrastination styleis arousal based, which sounds.
I know that sounds terrible.
No arousal based as in I need high stakes.
Yeah.

(01:41:02):
So for me to work my best,I need high stakes,
which is kind of whatwe were referencing earlier.
So in collegeI would like have a, you know,
2500 word essaydo started like a day before.
Crush it, get an A but pull an all nighterand you know, lose hair.
And it was like basicallyif self inflicted pain.

(01:41:23):
Yeah.
But it's like if the paper didn'tseem challenging or the project didn't
seem challenging,then I made it challenging
by crushing my timeline and doing itin three days when we had two weeks.
I think it's interestingthat you say the grit
as we talk about the grit as a roadblock.
I think that for you, yeah, thatthat like browser based procrastination,
it's just I think in of itselfthe name should make you be like,

(01:41:46):
well, maybe make some changes in my lifebecause like, you know.
Yeah, well,and when you're doing that with like other
like all of my businessesinvolve other people.
So that's not fair to them.
Like I'm going to run the closing
I know that I would do this, but like runthe closing up to the night before.
Brother, they don't need the pressure.
You don't even know how many timesI've covered
your back on certain thingsbecause I'm like, this

(01:42:07):
this is what's going to happen.
I'm just going to do it because I knowthis is what's going to happen.
But the thingis, know, how do we increase the stakes
without actuallyputting ourselves at risk?
If you if that's what motivates you,
you know, like how good is remember,that's what I was saying
before is why I set my zerosat different amounts so that I would get
the feeling of being brokeso that I would hustle.

(01:42:29):
I, I need high stakes,but obviously I don't.
I have a family and kids.
I don't want to gohigh stakes in business.
I mean, the first initial thing isyou trick yourself, right?
So you put about like, so for instance,
this is this is a tactic from,
amazing because at the time of CapEx,if you guys haven't read it,
I highly recommend it,

(01:42:51):
where you put these certain triggersand boundaries in place where
if you don't hit the certain thing,like you pay me 500 bucks,
or you have some kind of pain point
if you don't hit this discipline like so,it's when you're trying to be bad habits.
So if you effectively do this bad habit,then there's a thing.
So the example.
So meaning that on some of these thingsmaybe you need to put safeguards

(01:43:14):
in place that
basically create the same type of feelingof having the boundary
like three days before it has to be doneto where there's a consequence.
That's not from the end customers,but it's something you've put in place
that a confidant or familyor wife or whatever.
It's like,this is what's going to happen to you.
Yeah, just put money in my Roth.

(01:43:36):
And get it to me or or are you, like,
I don't know if you could findsome other ways of high stakes something.
So that would be mymy initial thought to you on that.
But I think
ultimately
and there are some things that arejust hard to get away from in general.
So yeah, there's some things that are hardwired is asking that deeper question of
because here's the thing, you don't valuethat task enough as well.

(01:44:00):
It comes down to it, right? Yeah.
So you don't want to be doing it towhy are you doing it.
Think about okay.
Think about all the it's
not even that I don't valuebecause this is like daily mundane stuff.
So it's just making it interesting.
Like if you do the same thing100 times. Yeah.
But because, you know, shipping'smonotonous.
Oh yeah.
But I sort of like when I was doing that,helping out with that part.

(01:44:20):
Fun stuff.
Like you build your boxesbeforehand and stuff.
Well, and I watch movies.
Yeah. That's like a work, I watch it.
Servants are nuts. Crazy.Everybody's been telling me watch that.
Anyways, we're not doing any promotionsfor Apple. Okay.
Anyways.
But really, I think it's isolating.
The whole entire thing for you is.

(01:44:43):
What when you when you,when you do things freely,
when you don't have to be pushwhen you don't.
And you're really productive
because there are those thingsthat you just crush, right?
Passionprojects don't have to be mistakes.
Yeah. That's the only thingthat I feel like actually for you.
But how do you turn your mundane stuffand the passion projects?
Or should you be outsourcing that.
Yeah.

(01:45:03):
And focusing on the things that actually
because ultimately it'sone of those things like should you be
you should be doing the thingsthat make you the most money that don't.
That right, you're passionate about.
So I think it's kind of an allencompassing of
why do you not want to do it?
Should you be doing it?
Can someone else be doing it?
Or can you make it more interesting?

(01:45:24):
Yeah, which that was the one thingthat I did lose
the shipping is seeingwhat was going out is like now.
Like buying wise
I have like the hands on thingof seeing like what's selling what's not.
Yeah.
So like in that sense,
until shipping gets to the pointI think where
I can't ship in like under two hours,
but even then, like you can get inventoryreports that send you back stuff.

(01:45:45):
Yeah.
And that you can turnout and that something you would actually
think would be interesting to you.
But ultimately for you,
you have to create to pay enoughto where it's worth
making a change on this.
I think you've gotten so good
right at.

(01:46:09):
Being in the heat, in
the fire that you, it's justit is what it is.
It may take something goingseriously wrong before you're like
oh man I need to change this.
Well yeah I did. That'swhat I'm thinking.
Like at this point
now, like what I've been doing latelyis I'll set like a 2:00 appointment
that I have to makethat again, boundaries.

(01:46:29):
But then I'm using the 2:00 appointment.
But, you know,so you gotta do what you gotta do
sometimes this what I'm saying.
I think the first stepis putting the safeguards in place
to make it towhere you're not so much in pain.
I think the secondary thingis, again, isolating,
like where you're really at,what's causing that?
What do you believehas led to a 90% failure rate in business,

(01:46:52):
and how would you fix it?
I think that we put
way more thought into
how we operate our businessthan what business we want to go into.
Like so like I said, with peoplegetting reluctantly started,
I think sometimes you like, I told youI wanted to put a flag up at our shop

(01:47:13):
that said,we don't do this because it's easy.
We do thisbecause we thought it would be easy.
And that's the truest thing,because like the majority of the people
that I knowthat are small business owners,
they either saw it as like an opportunity,like, oh, I can make money.
Or like you said,I think I could do this cheaper.
I think I could do this better,
but it's like,is this going to be like your love?

(01:47:36):
Yeah.
You know, are you going to get involvedin this business to the point
that you can give it your alland do it to the best of your ability?
Because like if you just wantto get into epoxy garage floors
because you heard that it's good moneyand that you could do it
or other things like that, likethat's not going to be enough
to get throughlike the first couple of storms.
Because basically
when you're looking at a businessas an idea, it's a crystal clear

(01:48:00):
lake and you're like, well, this sideto the other and a kayak, no problem.
And then you find out, likethe first turn, now you're on the ocean.
Yeah.
You know, now I think that's good.
So like putting more timeresearch and stuff
into before you start and makingsure you're picking the right path.
Yeah.
Well and like that goes back to probably one

(01:48:21):
the best experiences I ever didas far as business was a startup weekend.
And you have to build a companyin three days.
So part of that is you can buildat the lean Canvas the, you know,
and understanding and doing the research,getting out and surveying people
and figuring out, hey, is this somethingthat's even this is a target market?
Like it's bonkers to methat how many people create a product

(01:48:42):
and don't even talk to our target market.
Yeah.
They're just like, I like theyit's like the target market of one like,
oh, this is this is the thingI've been trying to fix for forever.
Everybody must want that. And I'm like,
dude, you're just weird.
I mean, like,could you say that I guess, yeah.
Are you okay?
So I completely, completely agree that

(01:49:07):
more thoughtsand more research on the things.
Yeah.
And I think that'snot just about the market.
Are you able to do the business like
I was watching, a YouTube video talkingabout how people want to be YouTubers,
and they were talkingabout doing the research
on, more than likely,the format you're doing.

(01:49:27):
If you're gonna be successful,you won't be doing it for years.
Will you love it foryou doing it for years.
Yeah.
Like can you see yourself doing the thing
day in and day out when terrible thingshappen to your family.
But you still have to go do this thingwhen you are almost broke.
Can you do this thingwhen things get tough?

(01:49:49):
Yeah, I've heard the questionthat if all your bills
are paid for a year,are you doing this for 12 months?
Yeah.
So someone just said, hey, for 12 months,all your bills are paid.
Money's no object.
Would you want to do this for 12 months?Yeah.
And if you are on the fence about that,then it's probably not the business.
Business for you. Yeah.
Because you could have12 months, you know, making.

(01:50:12):
This life of stuff you've experienced.
I hope for both our sakes, everything
our friendship and the peoplewe bring into this community.
And as we further researchand dive into this
and create more smooth sailing,or at least a little bit easier sailing.
Oh, yeah.
Amen.

(01:50:32):
And, I really thank youfor being on the show and being vulnerable
and opening up and I can tell youyou're probably back on,
And there's some more thingsI want to talk about.
With you.We just ran out of time for today.
I think there's an opportunity for youto be inspirational to other friends
who are thinking about being entrepreneursand be more open
and also inviting people, andI think you're already doing that more.

(01:50:55):
And so, you are you will you committo being a part of the different
nanny community collective? That was theso you're going to see them in there.
So if you see Robert Kelly head him up.
You have any questions?
Yeah.
Let's do this thing.
Let's let's defeat 90. Yeah. Absolutely.
Your stories,
your experiences can change it all.

(01:51:17):
Let's fight until you're together.
We can defeat 90.
Okay.
How to scale.
All right. Well that's it.
First interview podcast.
Loved it I enjoyed it. Yeah.
You know, it's it's interesting that.

(01:51:41):
I know it's justI could talk for hours about the subject,
but there's nothing there's, there'ssomething about that business
that's just like,I literally have so many more questions.
I'm kind of blessed thing withthis is like
I've heard people say like theythey read a bunch of biographies.
Yeah.
Because if you could read a biography,you could get an entire life
worth of knowledge and lessons.

(01:52:01):
And if you read 100 biographies, like
equivalentto 100 lifetimes of experiences, obviously
not first person, but like,still just like building your knowledge.
So you think about this.
I mean, if 100 people sit in this chairand tell their entire business journey
and you've got a kid22 want to start his own business,

(01:52:22):
and he hears 100 people say the dos,don'ts, ups, downs, twists, turns.
He's going to be way more quick.
I mean, that's freaking bootcamp.
Yeah, I think it's, I recently heardwas that quote, but,
maybe you told me about thiswhere Elon Musk
like this first part of his life,he just read a bunch of

(01:52:43):
biographies of people who.
Yeah, he wrote A Tiny Love,
and he's just like, what better wayto learn of how to do business than
to learn from businesspeople and hear the stories.

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