Episode 14: From Shadows to Self-Love: Tamara Rowland's Journey

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
We're just people trying to live ourlife the same way everyone else is.

(00:04):
I'm not trying to take over anyone'sspace or take over anyone's jobs
or take over anyone's lives.
I just wanna be able to live my life thesame way other people are living theirs.
My journey, finding myself as atransgender woman has made me a whole
person, has made me emotionally complete.
In healthcare, we talk about.
Medications and treatments thatimprove people's quality of life.

(00:27):
Transitioning to live my authenticself has increased my quality of life
to a measure I can't even explain.
What do you really know aboutpeople who were born transgender?
Have you ever met someonewho's transgender?
Well, if you're like me, you'recurious but hesitant to ask questions.
Well, welcome to Demystifying theTransgender Journey in our conversations

(00:47):
with people who were born transgender,their families, friends, and the
professionals who support them.
We ask probing questions and discoverinsightful and educational answers.
You can also find more information onour website, the transgender journey.com.
Now let's get right into today's episode.
Welcome everybody.

(01:08):
Thank you for joining us foranother episode of Demystifying
the Transgender Journey, brought toyou by Women Who Push the Limits.
I'm one of your hosts, LynnMurphy and the other host, Wendy
Cole, is here with us today.
She and I have started to collaborate andpeople have told us that this is a very
unique or maybe strange thing, an oldercisgender woman and an older transgender

(01:28):
woman combining to educate people aboutthe misinformation and the disinformation
about the transgender journey.
So we're just really excitedabout what we're doing and
how we're educating people.
And we want to talk to cisgender people,other transgender people, their families,
healthcare workers, friends, coworkers.

(01:48):
We're expanding who we're talking to toget more of a full picture out there.
So let's get to our guest today becausewe're really excited about this.
So think about this.
If you spent decades hiding your trueself, only to discover that living
authentically could unlock a life morevibrant than you've ever imagined.

(02:09):
Today's guest knows what thatjourney is like, intimately.
Tamara's not just a trailblazer in her ownright, she's a devoted parent, a caring
friend, an adventurous mountain biker,and a passionate community volunteer.
With 25 years experience as a pharmacistand over six years experience as a
professional custom pen maker, herlife is a testament to resilience,

(02:32):
creativity, and reinvention.
Beneath all those roles, Tamara hasalways sensed that she was different.
She had different thoughts and feelingsthan others who were around her.
And growing up without a roadmap orrole model, she spent years struggling
to discover who she really is andsuppressing her true identity.

(02:52):
She was navigating a world in whichshe hadn't yet found her true self.
It wasn't until the age of 48,after decades of inner turmoil,
that Tamara courageously cameout as a transgender woman.
Now she embraces lifeas her authentic self.
And today Tamara will share her remarkablestory of self-discovery, the challenges

(03:14):
she's overcome, and the joy she's foundon the other side of her transition.
So get ready for an inspiringconversation about authenticity, courage,
and the power of living your truth.
So let's welcome Tamara Rowland.
Tamara, thank you for being here today.
Thank you both for inviting me to bea part of your project and allowing

(03:35):
me to share my story with everyone.
I hope it resonates with some people.
I know it will because we love yourstory and for our audience just a little
intro, you know about who Tamara is.
We said she transitioned at 48.
She's been a pharmacistworks for a very big agency.
And she's divorced.

(03:56):
She has two children.
Those are kind of the, the basics of that.
But Tamara, let's get into your story.
Do you want to start with what itwas like when you were growing up,
what kind of experiences you hadthen, and how you felt different?
Yeah.
Growing up, I've heard this froma lot of my trans friends who
transitioned later in life, thatgrowing up I had different thoughts.

(04:17):
I had thoughts that I was ashamed of.
I don't want to say I was directlytold how I was thinking was wrong,
but I was certainly indirectly toldthat what I was thinking was wrong.
So I would have thesethoughts, or actions even.
As I was thinking back over my pastand my childhood, that I would sit
there and I would look at the fashionspreads from JC Penney, when I was a

(04:39):
kid, you know, in the Sunday newspaper.
Or my mom would get clothingmagazines or what have you.
And I would just look through, asa 6-year-old, as a 7, 8-year-old.
And looking at those white patentleather shoes that the girls wore at
Easter and feeling jealous, and they'rein their dresses and it's so cute.
But I couldn't let anyone know thatI was looking at that because what

(05:03):
I internalized, what I inferred fromeveryone around me, was that was wrong.
That's girl stuff.
Mm-hmm.
You got boy stuff over here.
This is who you are.
Because if you're lookingat girl stuff, that's wrong.
You're not going to fit in with us.
Just that was the understanding.
And I certainly did not have the courageor bravery or whatever you want to

(05:26):
call it, the motivation, to deny that.
To come out and confront that as achild, even as an adult, obviously,
because it took me decades.
But those thoughts were always with me.
And I would be paranoid,honestly, through my life that
What if they can read my mind,what if they can read my thoughts,

(05:46):
they're going to find out.
And I always had, I don't knowif you'd call it an affinity.
I was drawn to people who weredifferent in their gender expression
or in their sense of who they love.
Gay people,
people who didn't fitthe male/female binary.
And I wanted to get close to them,to learn about them, to understand.

(06:11):
But I was afraid.
I was afraid.
And I kept a separationbetween me and them.
And Lynn, you mentionedthat I'm a pharmacist.
And that's my career.
I've made a livelihood in thatprofession, in healthcare.
And throughout that I've seen it.
I've seen how trans people,gay people, people who didn't
fit those molds, were treated.

(06:34):
In my personal life, aroundmy friends, my family.
And then even in medicine, in healthcare.
And how there were always certainproviders that I would work with who were
very open, affirming, very definitivethat this person is who they are.
And then there were the other,
Oh my, I don't want to havethat person on my panel.

(06:57):
They're going to be too difficult.
I'll refer you over tothis other provider.
And, there's some instances that I cango through that were very maybe even
seminal in my early adulthood as aprofessional, where I saw some of these
interactions where it just reinforced,
Yep, yep.
I can't be that.
I can't be, I can't be like that person.

(07:17):
I can't be treated like that.
And so those thoughts, that dichotomy, orthat disjointing, between how I felt, how
I thought about myself and others, andhow I knew quote/unquote "the society"
needed me to be, was forcing me to be.
And they were so different and it causeda lot of insecurity, a lot of anxiety

(07:39):
that I internalized and I would getthrough a lot of difficult situations,
just stuffing those feelings down in.
Hiding those feelings away from the world.
It definitely makes life difficult,especially for someone like me
who was afraid to say it out loud.
I was afraid to say anything like thatbecause of that fear of rejection.
Well, and to think what you had to doto stuff that down for so many years.

(08:03):
Yeah.
And I found ways to cope emotionally, thatled me to behaviors that were unhealthy.
It led me into addiction and toaddiction to alcohol, later in life.
And, that, that was just a wayto cope with these feelings
that I could not handle.
I didn't know how to handle, andI couldn't let them come to light.
Mm-hmm.

(08:23):
Being a pharmacist, did you entertainthe idea of doing anything with drugs?
I absolutely entertained it.
Um,
I, you know, I would, I would thinkabout creative plans and things.
Now, in my case, when I was 21, I camedown with rheumatoid arthritis and it
was a pretty significant quick onset.

(08:44):
A lot of pain, real pain, swollenjoints and everything, which gratefully
now is under really good control.
But early on it was painful.
And I did start on opioids,prescription opioids.
And I took those for at least a decade.
And during that time, taking theopioids, as a pharmacist, I've
been on the other side of likehow people talk about their pain.

(09:06):
And this was in the time in healthcarewhere the Joint Commission had
pain as the seventh vital sign.
And I won't go into all the details,but opioid use and prescribing blew up.
It blossomed.
Like that became then ourOxycontin addiction problem.
It was that time period.
So it was really easyto get pain medicines.
Now, I also was really worried aboutmy job and my career, so I tempered it.

(09:31):
I kept it under good enoughcontrol, put it that way.
I would just take just enough to getthrough the day and then at the end
when it was bedtime, I would takeenough to just pass out, you know?
And that was my coping mechanism.
I got to a point with the prescriptiondrugs that I was fearing that it

(09:51):
might interfere with my career.
Mm-hmm.
And I stopped those cold turkeyand that's when my drinking really
accelerated because I still neededa way to cope with those feelings.
And so then I spent the nextdecade growing that addiction.
And I'm grateful that I never hadany, job related consequences,

(10:12):
or legal consequences.
Not that I shouldn't have, withoutgoing into any detail, but I'm
grateful that that didn't happen to me.
And I'm grateful that I got sober whenI did before any of that happened.
Because I have lots of friends, lots ofacquaintances in my recovery community
who weren't as lucky as me, and hadsevere consequences as a result.

(10:32):
Now I certainly had severe consequences.
They were just differentconsequences, you know, um, they
just weren't legal consequences.
Mm-hmm.
Were the drugs and the alcoholmore related to the R.A. or were
they more related to your feelings?
Oh, it was, I was definitelymedicating for my emotions.
Yeah.
Certainly at first, it was pain.
It was real.
There was a common sayingduring that time period that

(10:54):
If you're taking the medication forreal pain, you can't get addicted.
And that's not true.
We know that today, but thatwas a common line in healthcare.
And at first, yeah, I had real pain.
And I had waves, I had periodswhere it would flare up.
And I had lots of periods inbetween where it wasn't an issue.
It wasn't physical pain,it was emotional pain.

(11:15):
Mm-hmm.
I'm not proud of it, but it'spart of my life's journey.
And I've met a lot of other peoplewho've had a similar journey,
who are ashamed to talk about it.
I was absolutely afraid to talkabout it because of the potential
consequences to my career.
But the best thing that happened to me wasto get sober and to get into a recovery
program where I had to face myself.

(11:37):
I had to look inside and I had toreconcile what my fears were and
why I was so afraid of the world.
And I very slowly beganto start loving myself.
Accepting myself for who I was.
And I slowly, over the courseof a few years, started what
I would call my transition.

(11:59):
Before I finally made thatopen decision, and that open
announcement to the world that,
No, this is who I am.
My name's Tamara, I'm a transgender woman.
And it took a couple ofyears to build up to that.
Once it happened, it was just arelief of weight off my shoulders.
And I could sleep finallythrough the night.
I could go through the day.

(12:20):
I still had fear, and pain, andanxiety, and things like that.
But I was content with myselfbecause I knew who I was now,
and that was not a feeling I hadever had up until that moment.
So what was the point thatyou said, yes, I'm doing this?
because you had different experiences.
I think you talked, when we weretalking before about thinking
you were a gay man for a while.

(12:42):
Can you talk us through that progression?
And just now, you're talking about howyou had to understand yourself and dig
deep into your emotions and your psyche.
Give us a little deeper pictureof that part of the journey.
Yeah.
So my journey was very long anddrawn out up until that one point.
That tipping point for me.
And, decades ago when I was inmy twenties, I probably bought

(13:04):
my first women's clothes.
In my environment, my only exposure totransgender people was in pornography.
And it's a little bit taboo.
I think people are ashamed totalk about that, but that was the
exposure that I had access to.
I didn't feel like I hadaccess to anything else.
So I certainly think that shaped myidea of what a transgender person was.

(13:29):
Not in a healthy way.
It is, it is not my day-to-dayexperience, put it that way.
But I bought my first women's clothesprobably in my early twenties.
That was when I felt brave enoughto go into a store and do it.
I considered it just a sexual attractionbecause of the link to pornography.
That was my only understanding of it, andthat was the only way that I seemed like

(13:52):
I could connect to that type of life.
And you know, over the years, I threwaway article after article of clothing.
And then I would buy another one, and Iwould get ashamed and I would throw it
away, and then I would buy some more.
And that cycle continuedfor a couple of decades.
I'll just skip over a big chunk of that.
Later in my marriage, and my ex-wifeand I have a wonderful relationship

(14:13):
today and I'm so grateful forthat, we're great co-parents.
And I know not all of myfriends have that relationship.
But she's helped me in my transitionafter I did come out in many ways
that she doesn't even understand.
She confronted me because shefound women's clothes in my closet.
And that was at age 42.

(14:35):
I was unable to admit at that point that
"Yes, I think, I think I'm a woman."
That,
"Yes, I am a woman."
I couldn't say that.
And what I had to say was,
It must be a fetish.
It must be just sexual.
And that was completely a lie.

(14:55):
And I knew it was in my heart.
But I couldn't say more than that.
So I did, I sought therapyfor sexual addiction.
That was part of my storycoming out, in getting sober.
That was part of my sobriety journey, too.
I met a number of wonderful peoplewho helped me through some of these
feelings, these thoughts and things.

(15:16):
It took a number of years after that forme to accept that this wasn't sexual.
Like, I wasn't identifying with thestories, the feelings, the sensations of
these other people that I was interactingwith, that I became friends with.
My story is different.
My feelings about this are different.

(15:37):
We did get divorced, and I moved out ofthe house, and I was living on my own.
And we had 50/50 custody of the children.
So they would be with me oneweek, and with mom the other week.
And this was during COVID.
I started working from home.
So many of my friends have asimilar coming out story that they
started working at home and all ofa sudden they had the ability to, in

(15:59):
private, be who they felt they were.
To connect with that inner woman.
That person that they felt they were.
And that was me.
I bought a number of differentwomen's clothing and I would wear it.
I had my cameras off for meetings.
I could look however Iwanted and no one would know.
And it became comfortable.
It became comfortable.

(16:20):
I started dating a manshortly after my divorce.
I identified as a gay male, at first.
That was my first coming out.
Mm-hmm.
Because I still wasn't to the point whereI could accept who I really was inside.
In that whole course, I'mstill buying women's clothes,
I start painting my nails.
Now one thing that Idid do, I grew a beard.
I say it started on accident becauseI moved out of the house and I

(16:43):
lost my razor, and then it gottoo long to use a regular razor.
I needed to trim it.
I couldn't find my trimmer,so I just let it go.
Right?
And I had a beard for probably, gosh,at least two years before I came out.
That beard became a little piece of armorfor me against being who I really am.

(17:04):
And I remember having these thoughtsthat if I shave this beard, I'm
going to start wearing makeup everyday and I won't be able to stop.
I had this visceral innerthought, like it was clear as day.
And that terrified me.
It absolutely terrified me thatI could get to that point where

(17:26):
there'd be no turning back.
The real you was pushingher way out, wasn't she?
She absolutely was.
Absolutely was.
She was there the whole time.
Yeah.
I was forcing my will, to not bethe person who I knew I was, or
wanted to be, this inner self.
So there was one day it was Halloween,2022, and I dressed up as Wednesday Adams.

(17:53):
And I remember going out, first time ever,in women's clothes outside of the house.
And something happened.
In our trans community, sometimes peopletalk about "When did your egg crack?"
You know, the moment thatyou knew you, you were born.
This little trans chickcomes out of the shell.
Right.
And that was my moment wherethere was no turning back.
Hmm.
I always say, Tamara,

(18:14):
We transition to be who we've always been.
Mm-hmm.
It sounds like you woulddefinitely agree with that.
A hundred percent.
I always knew.
I hear people like,
"Well, did you know you weretransgender when you were younger?"
Yeah, I knew.
But there's a huge differencebetween me knowing, and me accepting.
Those are two different things.

(18:34):
And the acceptance, it's the socializationthat you were going through then, right?
Absolutely.
That was your cue that everythingyou were thinking was wrong.
A hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
So I knew I had these feelings,these desires, these needs,
that I refused to let happen.
And I refused to acknowledge.

(18:56):
So I shaved that beard the next day.
Congratulations.
And the next day I made an appointmentwith a gender affirming provider.
And started my journeyin the open, finally.
I had decades of practice, in secret.
Little pieces,
Little pieces.

(19:16):
And that was the moment that I was free.
I was free to be me.
That was your feeling.
Absolutely.
The freedom.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
When I look back at childhood and allthe way forward, how different would our
lives have been, had people been morereceptive to this from the beginning?

(19:36):
Yeah.
I try not to, I have those thoughts often.
How would it been different,how would I have been different?
How would my life have been different?
I do understand that if it, if my.
Childhood had been different.
If my early adulthood had been different,I wouldn't have my beautiful kids.
I love my kids.
I absolutely would not want togo through life without them.
Mm-hmm.
My life today is amazing.

(19:59):
Mm-hmm.
I don't know how differently amazing itmight have been, but that's the past.
Right.
I can't change the past.
Right.
I'm grateful I got to where I am today.
Mm-hmm.
And I hope that I can help someoneelse, maybe younger than me, who's
going through these same feelings, thesesimilar experiences, to come to accept
that earlier in their life than I did.

(20:21):
We're both showing possibilities.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I want to be an example.
Not that I want to be heldup to any high standard.
I want to be acknowledged that yes,this is a possibility for people
who have these feelings and theseinner desires, this inner knowledge.
Well, you talked aboutthe shame, and the fear.
Talk a little bit since you'rean example to other people.

(20:43):
When you went through that,how did you get through that?
Because I'm sure other people are goingthrough that same kind of thing, or have
gone through that same kind of thing.
I know Wendy and I talked about that too.
Give us some advice or someof your experiences on that.
Shame is a powerful force.
Immensely powerful force.
And it kept me in hiding most of my life.

(21:05):
When I got sober, I had to go througha journey to cast off the shame.
And some of the shame, it wasall about like, how I had been
thinking, what my sexual desires andattractions had been up here, in here.
Reconciling that with my marriage, andmy family life, my professional life.

(21:26):
And I mentioned like,
oh my God, if people could read mythoughts, and they would find out-
I had this fear ofrejection because of shame.
And I got introduced to theauthor Brene Brown and some of her
podcasts and she talks about thedifference between shame and guilt.
I didn't understand there was adifference between those two things.

(21:47):
Mm-hmm.
I thought they were one and the same.
I didn't understand that the guiltis the things that I've done.
The shame is who I amas a person, you know?
And for me, I couldn'tseparate those two things.
I didn't know how, I didn'thave the tools to do it.
And I got into therapy, andsobriety, and going through
this journey looking at my life.

(22:07):
And I slowly came to understand thedifference between those things.
Such a liberating experience.
But it didn't happen overnight.
It took time, and it tookwork, and it took effort.
It took pushing through a lot of fear.
A lot of fear, again, of rejection.
Of being cast out from my friendgroup, from family, from society.

(22:30):
And so yeah, shame kept me in bondage.
It keeps a lot of us in bondage.
And once we get out of that and recognizethe power of it, possibilities are, I
don't want to say sound like a cliche,
Possibilities are endless!
But it's true.
It's true.
True.
And it seems like it feels sodifferent once you get to that point.

(22:52):
Absolutely.
When I was in it, there was no exitway, there was no way out of it.
There was desperation.
I didn't want to go on.
I haven't mentioned this yet,but, I was at a point shortly
before I got sober that, that Ididn't want my life to continue,
mm-hmm.
Without going into any specifics, Ididn't want to wake up the next morning.
Here, I have a wonderful career,a beautiful wife, and lovely kids,

(23:17):
and I have two cars in the garage.
I have the American Dream, and Idon't want to wake up in the morning.
Because I can't stand who I am.
Mm-hmm.
And again, the shame.
Who I am, right.
I had to learn that whoI am can be beautiful.
If I'm a decent human being toother people, that's beautiful.
If I can show love to other people, behelpful to other people, rather than

(23:42):
just being selfish and taking, takingwhat I think I need from other people.
No, I need to give.
This is a lesson that I learned only inthe last decade, that helped me come out.
And it was a very, very powerfulexperience to be able to accept that
Yeah, I can be a decent human being.
When I didn't feel that before.

(24:03):
How did you go from not wanting to wakeup the next morning, to grabbing a hold
of this and running with the changein being the person you know you are.
Those feelings really were at theirheight right before I got sober.
And my ex-wife confronted meabout the clothes in my closet.
And at the time, I was drinking a lot.

(24:23):
And I said
"Yeah, those are my clothes.
Oh, and by the way, I'm an alcoholicand I can't stop drinking."
You know, so I did, she didnot know the extent of it.
I'm not proud of it, but Iwas very good at hiding it.
I had empty bottles in my closethidden behind other clothes.
I was at a point of desperation.
Again, I didn't want to wake up.
And I'm like
I don't know what to do now.

(24:43):
I don't know what's going to happen next.
And so I said "I need to do somethingabout this." And so I went into detox,
and into rehab, and outpatient rehab.
And, that was the very start of it.
Okay.
I was at a desperate moment.
I didn't want to go on,I had no other choice.
I felt like I had no other choice.
Right.
It was survival for you.

(25:04):
A hundred percent . Thatwas the only thing it was.
Was survival.
And I'm grateful that I got to that pointand still made it to where I am today.
You know?
But that was, again, the tippingpoint for getting past that, just
not wanting to be here any longer.
People say that they think beingtransgender is a choice, that you wake

(25:25):
up one morning and think, "Oh, I thinkI'm going to be the opposite sex."
From what you're saying, this wasn't it.
You fought very, very hard.
Your inner self fought very,very hard to come out and, you
were trying to push that down.
It doesn't sound to me likebeing transgender was a choice.
It sounds like the choice wasto live as you really are.

(25:45):
Yeah.
And I think there's that perception from alot of people because for people like me,
at least my experience, I hid it so well.
Yeah.
But no one would've ever expected.
And people have told me that
"I would have never known."
I'm like
"Yeah, because I didn't want you to know."
Mm-hmm.
But I was there the whole time, Iwas just not letting myself out.
And so to the outside world,

(26:07):
oh my gosh, this is all of a sudden,how could this all of a sudden
happen, this acute change in whoyou think you are and all this?
No, no.
This goes back to when I was a kid.
And I'm not going to say that everywaking moment, that's all I thought about.
Obviously not, right?
Because we live our lives, and eventoday I'm not constantly thinking
"Oh, I'm transgender."
I think some peoplethink our identity is all

(26:29):
we are.
No, that's part of my identity, obviously.
That's part of my life and my experiences.
But I have all the other experiencesand all the other identities and wants
and desires that everyone else has.
I want to be at peace with myself.
I want be secure financially.
I want to be secure socially.
I want to have a family.
I want to do all these experiences,and travel, and all these things.

(26:51):
That doesn't changebecause I'm transgender.
And I really think that a lot ofpeople think all I think about is sex.
All I think about is being transgender.
I'm like, that is such aminuscule part of my life now.
Now obviously society and thecurrent political environment
brings that up constantly.
Mm-hmm.
Transgender people are a target,a political target today.

(27:13):
I hope that in the near future, that'sno longer the case, but it's the reality.
So people who don't know transpeople, that's what they're hearing.
They're hearing just all this negativity.
I'm just a person, Iwant to go live my life.
I want to go out to eat, I want togo shopping without being stared at.
Without people mumblingbeneath their voices
Ooh, look at that.
about so and so.
Pointing fingers.

(27:34):
I want to go into the restroomwithout feeling threatened.
Has that happened to you?
I've gotten looks, I've neverspecifically, thank God, been threatened.
I have been a victim of road rage justfor the way I looked, for nothing else.
Really?
That was an episode thatwas very, very scary.
But I reported to the police,and of course they didn't do an

(27:56):
investigation because I wasn'tactually threatened with a weapon.
There was no physical harm.
I recorded the wholething and they're like
"Oh yeah that's verbal threats."
But, it is what it is.
People think I'm transgender all thetime, a hundred percent of the time,
I'm just trans.
No, I'm just a person going through life.
Leave me alone.
That's the only label they see.

(28:16):
That's the only label they see.
So they want a label that there'sjust this box that they've gotta put
you in because you're transgender.
Yeah.
I'm different.
I'm not like them.
Yeah.
So I must be this stereotype.
Yeah.
But that's not who you are.
We talked about all kinds of things.
The parent, the friend,the hiker, the pen maker.
And you make beautiful pens.

(28:38):
I want everybody to know that.
Thank you.
But there's so much more to you, andI'm really glad you brought that out.
People need to understandthat you're human.
And that's what Wendyand I are trying to do.
Tell stories so peopleunderstand that you're human.
You have the same feelings, thesame thoughts that, you know,
normal, I hate to use that word,but that cisgender people have.

(29:00):
I can tell, obviously you'vereached a point of really good
self-awareness and self-acceptance.
I would assume you've also finallyhad self-love in your life.
When did that happen?
That's a great observation becauseI absolutely love myself today.

(29:20):
Mm-hmm.
And that is relatively recent.
So I came out openly, publicly,about two and a half years ago.
And, I had a progression towards thatself love, that led up to that point.
I can absolutely say at that point,there was some desperation to

(29:42):
finally coming out fully as myself,
mm-hmm.
But there was more love of myselfthan there was desperation,
and that was a change.
And so slowly as I've lived Tamara,my love for Tamara has increased.
As long as I'm acting in good faith,out of love, out of kindness, out of

(30:05):
patience, and tolerance, as long as I'ma decent human being, what other people
think of me is none of my business.
Because I love who I am, I can put my headon the pillow at night and understand that
You know what?
I had a good day.
For the most part, I was a decenthuman being to other people.
That's my goal.
I want to get to the end of myday and not have any regrets and

(30:25):
fears about the things that I did.
How I treated someone.
I remember someone saying, andI can't remember the context.
"Live life like it'syour last day on Earth."
Mm-hmm.
And not to take, take, take.
To give, give, give.
How do I want to be remembered?
Well, I don't need to be remembered.
But, if I were to be remembered,how do I want to be remembered?
As a villain?

(30:45):
Or as someone who was caring and loving?
And yeah, I want to be caring and loving.
Actually, I want to be that.
Not just, I want people to think I am.
I want to be that.
When you were living as your otherperson, the image that you were before,
I know I didn't feel good about myself.

(31:08):
How did you feel?
I hated myself.
Okay.
I absolutely hated myself.
That's what I assumed.
I remember staring in the mirror atmyself and just, just cursing myself.
What a difference it makes, doesn't it?
Yeah.
And today, no, I have value.
I have personal value.
Mm-hmm.
And I hope that comesacross to other people.

(31:31):
It does.
If it doesn't?
Well...
It does.
Your genuineness, your authenticity,your love, it really comes across.
And I don't want to toot myhorn, I screw up all the time.
Right.
Like I often get into these littleselfish ways and this and that.
But I have a way to reset.
To recognize.
That's the self-awareness part.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it didn't come overnight.

(31:53):
It came with a lot of struggle.
And you're human.
Yeah.
You're human.
We all do those kinds of things too.
Exactly.
It doesn't matter.
Your friend Merandah talksabout her relationship with
the he/him that she used to be.
How do you look at thehe/him that you used to be?
Hmm.
I honestly don't think about it a lot.

(32:14):
I have a tendency tolive today, in the now.
Now, back then, I will say,I was constantly in regret.
I was constantly in fear, of likehow I was perceived to other people.
How I might be perceived to other people.
There's a line in recovery and it says
I will not regret the past, norwish to shut the door on it.

(32:37):
And I focus on that phrase.
I don't forget about how I was.
Mm-hmm.
I don't forget about it.
I don't have to have regretabout what I did today.
I've done what I can to make thingsright, and today I'm a different person.
The same person is in here, but I live asa different person, not just physically.

(32:59):
Emotionally, in myinteractions with other people.
Why?
It goes right back towhat you said, Wendy.
I love myself.
Mm-hmm.
And so when I think about how Iwas as Dad, as Brother, as a son,
I was always inadequate inside.
I always felt that way, and it'sall because I didn't like myself.

(33:22):
And don't get me wrong, I hadwonderful experiences, wonderful
instances with my ex-wife.
And we've talked about this.
We had some great times together.
And we absolutely did.
I'm grateful.
We love each other todeath still to this day.
We have a differentrelationship now, obviously.
But, looking back at those times,there were, there was a lot of joy

(33:44):
in between those long periods ofdespair, and shame, and all of that.
So yeah, that's how I look at it.
How was your careeraffected by the transition?
I transitioned while I wasstill working from home.
I had a lot of difficulty with myemployer, it's a big institution.

(34:09):
I tried to change myname, change my pronouns.
In my position, I'm not apatient facing pharmacist.
I work in a more administrative role.
And so my interactions, especiallyin COVID, were over teams.
They were over video chats and emails, andthere was a very long delay in changing,
even after my name was legally changed.

(34:31):
And so I was being constantlymisgendered, deadnamed, for months
and months and months on end.
It was a very trying experience for me.
And that's something people don't realize.
Yeah.
Once I accepted and startedloving me, that was it.
There was no going back.
There was no former name,there was not that person.

(34:53):
There was no detransitioning?
No, not for this.
No back button.
There's no back button,there's no escape button.
And you know, that was sucha trying time in my journey.
I ended up going through Equal EmploymentOpportunity Commission and ended up
getting a settlement with my employer.
That was really a settlement to changetheir processes about how they do

(35:18):
name changes, and how they can speedthings up, hold people accountable,
make sure people are trained.
And it wasn't because they weretargeting me as a transgender person.
They had a horrible system that wasbroken, for everyone, for everyone.
And it doesn't matter if you were acisgender woman and you got married
or divorced, it took months andmonths and months and months on
end for this process to take place.

(35:40):
And I think what about womenwho are out of a difficult
domestic violence situation?
They want to get rid of thatmoniker that's sticking with them
and causing them emotional harm.
It's no different in my mind, you know?
It's no different.
Yeah.
And so that was very trying.
I was on the verge of leavingmy employment as a result.

(36:00):
I have great team members andlike my immediate work groups and
stuff, have been very supportive.
Healthcare is a little bit moreaccepting in general to transgender
people because there's more interactionwith, more visibility with transgender
people in the healthcare system.
And those things were of benefit tome in that respect with my employer.

(36:22):
So I got through the difficult time, andI'm still employed at the same place.
Well, what did your coworkers,how did they respond to this?
I received several messages immediately.
Because I did make an announcementat one of our staff meetings.
Because, I interact with everyonein my healthcare facility

(36:45):
basically, to some degree.
And especially my pharmacydepartment, which is very large.
And so they're going to see a change.
I'm like
Okay, I gotta have my announcement,so that they know that this is coming.
And I received, just a numberof really caring messages saying
I'm happy for you.

(37:05):
I'm glad that you found yourselfand you feel safe enough to
come out and to let us know.
If there's people who were upsetabout it, I didn't hear from
them, so that's fine by me.
I don't need to hear from them.
So, with the exception ofthat whole name change process
and that was very difficult.

(37:26):
But besides that, everything hasbeen very positive as far as my
relationship with my coworkers,and the support from my coworkers.
And I'm back in the office now andI share an office room, an office
space with nine other pharmacists.
And like they decorated myworkstation last week for my birthday.
They put streamers up and stuff.

(37:47):
They got me flowers.
I've never had birthday flowers before.
It was amazing.
So yeah, I feel loved where I am with mycoworkers, which is an amazing feeling.
And I know not everyone has that.
That's amazing.
I'm so glad you're havingthat experience with that.
So many people don't, and that's sad.
It's amazing to me how many peoplecame out during and after COVID.

(38:12):
That experience you shared ofbeing alone, where you could do
it safely and experiment withit, and it just becomes you.
I've seen so many people that came outright around that same timeframe, and the
year after, and started their transitions.

(38:33):
Yeah.
There's something about mebeing cooped up with myself.
Mm-hmm.
No, but, to what you said, Wendy,was like, I felt safe doing it
because I could do it in private.
Mm-hmm.
I could do it in hidingwhere no one could judge me.
Exactly.
And after a while, I justrealized how comfortable it was.
Mm-hmm.

(38:53):
It was truly you.
It was truly me.
Yeah.
Well, you had to getcomfortable with it first.
Mm-hmm.
And then put yourself out there.
So then did you show up on teamsmeetings and things like that with
your makeup on and your feminine look?
Absolutely.
I sure did.
Still had my dead name.
But I had she/her pronouns in my name.

(39:14):
But it was, you know, a masculine name.
Fortunately, most of my coworkerswere really good about using
my name and not deadnaming me.
It happened from time to time, therewere some instances that were truly
Oh, I'm so sorry I slipped up.
I've known you for 12years as this other name.

(39:34):
And it's hard to make that change.
And people who are genuine about that,and don't get defensive, I'm like
Okay, I'll give you a pass.
That's nice.
There are some, I've had theexperience with people like,
Well, you can't expectme to call you that.
I'm like
No.
This is my legal name.
That, that's not my name.
So it's time for youto make an adjustment.
If you slip up, that's fine.

(39:55):
Just apologize and move on.
We'll get through it.
But if you sit there and makeexcuses and put it back on me.
That I am the reason thatthey can't get my name right.
That's not acceptable to me.
And of course, I try to be verypolite about that with other
people when that does come up.
But again, for the most part, you slip up.
People slip up.
I slip up.

(40:16):
I slip up sometimes.
I remember in early transition Islipped up and dead named myself,
because I'm so used to- and I'm like
Oh gosh.
I had to forgive myself for that too.
But anyway, yeah.
When our cisgender peers, when theyslip up, the message to them is:
apologize, be sincere, and move on.
Try to do better, move on.

(40:39):
So what about your family?
When you came out to your wife, and yourkids, and your parents, and all of that?
Tell us about that a little bit.
For family, the first familymember I came out to was my
ex-wife and I met her for coffee.
And I was not really dressed femininely,a gender neutral type of an outfit.

(41:00):
But we sat down and I justcame straight out and said
"You know, I have something to tellyou. I've come to accept myself
that I'm a transgender woman."
And her first words were
"Well, that explains alot about our marriage."
You were already divorced at that point?
We were divorced at that point.
Okay.
For a year or two.
Yeah.

(41:20):
And we'd been separatedfor at least two years.
And we had reconciled ourrelationship after the divorce.
And so we were on good terms.
They're like
Oh, that, that makes sense.
That makes sense.
There were so many signs, therewere so many little things, little
activities, and obviously theclothing, and all of that, that she
discovered and confronted me about.

(41:41):
It all made sense.
It came together, you know, came together.
So that was a very positive experienceand she's been super supportive
of me which I'm grateful for.
And then, my kids were next.
And I talked to my ex about it.
Like
Are there things that you want me toaddress with the children specifically
that maybe I'm not thinking about?

(42:02):
Tried to get some of her input as Mom.
And so we sat down with them and I juststraight up told them what was going
on and told them what my new name is.
And that they can still call me dadif they feel comfortable doing that.
If they feel more comfortable callingme something else, let's figure
out something else to call me.

(42:22):
They were not comfortable calling me Mom.
Because they already had Mom, you know.
And I will tell you, I do feel awkwardwhen we're in public and they're like
Hey dad, come over here.
And I look like this, you know?
Right.
I'm like
Okay, dad's a woman.
And so that's my ownlittle thing to get over.
But you know, my daughter, she has a lotof friends who are in the LGBT community.

(42:43):
And she's super openand accepting of people.
And she was like
Okay, all right.
Um, that's cool.
You know?
Uh, can we go out to eat now?
That sort of thing.
What did she call you?
She calls me Dad.
I'm Dad, you know.
I want to say she was, I think13, maybe, something like that.

(43:04):
My son was a senior in highschool when I came out.
And he was more tentative, for sure.
I think a lot of his friends are thatsort of machismo, bro kind of culture,
you know, teenage boys and stuff.
And he just felt awkward with it.
Now, that said, that wasreally more about his friends.

(43:27):
So we still went out to eat,we still went out shopping with
me, dressed as me, as Tamara.
And we still did all these things,so it wasn't, he was so ashamed that
he wasn't going to interact with me.
But it was sort of like
Yeah, I don't think Iwant my friends to know.
So there was that.
And that lasted for a little while.
Much less now, I've met all ofhis friends, they've seen me,

(43:48):
they know who I am and how I am.
And so I think it's anon-issue at this point.
It's certainly not something thathe brings up as being uncomfortable.
Probably has some sortof reservation still.
Who knows?
I don't question that.
But we have a wonderful relationship.
So, I haven't been disowned by anyof my family, I'm grateful for that.

(44:10):
Um, my parents-
Parents, yes.
Yeah, so they were thenext to come out to.
And my dad he's always been, I wantto say a very practical person.
He approaches problemsin a way that it's like
Okay, well this is what it is.
Let's figure out what to do.
That was basically what he said.

(44:31):
He said,
"Well, this is different. I don'treally understand it, but we'll adapt."
And the adaptation didn'thappen instantaneously.
But, he tried.
My mom, I think my mom really had a lotof the feelings of she lost her baby boy.
She lost her son.

(44:53):
And I don't know the extent of that,
that's just my impression.
Based on how she reacted.
She's definitely come aroundin two and a half years.
They just, they called me tosing Happy Birthday to me.
And they both sang "Happy Birthday,Tamara." I'm grateful for that.
But that wouldn't have happened rightat the beginning of my transition.

(45:15):
Mm-hmm.
I think that would've been too difficult,at least for my mom, to sing that line.
But today, I think they're accepting.
I'm like
Yeah, this is real.
This is reality.
This is who I am and who I'vealways been, and I'm finally happy.
So, was there something about theway you were raised or conservative
way of life or something that, thataffected you as you were growing up or

(45:39):
affected them when you transitioned?
Absolutely.
The way I perceived my family'sopinions, the way I perceived
how society felt around me.
My parents, I mean, I'm notgoing to say that they were
conservative religious people.
There was some religion growing up,but it wasn't the biggest factor.
There was just a lot of jokes growing up.

(46:01):
There were jokes about gay people, aboutpeople who looked different, looked weird.
Oh my gosh, that man has an earring.
What does that mean?
What does that say about him?
That was my first, you know.
Like,
Oh, if it's in his right ear, he is gay.
If it's in his left ear, he is not.
I'm likeyou know?
I thought that was the most ridiculousthing I'd ever heard, but it came out of

(46:25):
my parents' mouths, and it stuck with me.
Sometimes those words, they don'tgo away, they get ingrained.
And those certainly gotingrained, you know?
And I had a number of experiences thatwere like that, like pointing fingers.
Oh my gosh, look at that person.
They're wearing whatever colorthey're wearing, they're doing
this, they're doing that.

(46:45):
And they, they justweren't fitting the binary.
And as a result, they were other.
They were different.
They were outcasts.
Mm-hmm.
I couldn't be an outcast.
I couldn't accept that.
And so that was how I interpreted.
I didn't have someone tellme specifically to my face
"No, you're not a girl.You'll never be a girl."

(47:08):
I didn't have that.
I know people who didhave that growing up.
I didn't.
It was all things that Iinferred and then internalized.
But it was very powerful.
Very powerful.
Well, that is powerful.
But you didn't say to them,like Wendy did when she was 10
years old, that she was a girl?
No I could not let them know.
You know, I have a story.

(47:29):
When I was young, probably six or seven.
I remember I had been in my mom'scloset, I think she was dressing,
we were getting ready for acompany picnic at my dad's work.
And I put on her high heels and I waslike, dancing around in the heels and
Look at me, blah, blah, blah.
And then I remember being at this picnic.

(47:50):
And she's talking with other parents,coworkers and she starts talking about how
Oh, it was so funny that I put on herheels and I was dancing around the closet.
And I got pissed.
I threw a fit.
I started hitting her like, you know, like
How dare you?
How could you say that to them?

(48:10):
How could you let themknow that I was doing that?
I was so ashamed, even at that age.
That was something boysweren't supposed to do.
Boys, they weren'tsupposed to do that at all.
Yeah.
And there was a lot of those experiencesthat I recalled after I came out.
And I started thinking
Yeah, what are all thosesigns throughout my life?

(48:30):
Mm-hmm.
And there's so many of them.
See, the socialization ofus starts when we're born.
It begins with our parents and itcarries us all the way through.
And you were internalizing allthose signals you were getting.
And I just know I can't be this.
Yes.

(48:51):
That was how they made you feel.
They did.
And it's just a normal thing thathappens to everyone who's born.
Yeah.
And I remember having theseother experiences as a kid.
I mentioned looking at theclothes, the catalogs, and Sunday
paper, and the JC Penney clothes.
Been there, done that.
Yeah.
I remember, I don't know how old I was,maybe 10-ish, 11, something like that,

(49:15):
and I first heard the Lou Reed song "Walkon the Wild Side." That opening lyric.
You know,
"Holly came from Miami, FLA, Hitchhikedacross the USA, Plucked her eyebrows
on the way, Shaved her legs, andthen he was a she, She said, Hey,
babe, take a walk on the wild side."
And I was like mind blown,like, you can do that?

(49:37):
Mm-hmm.
And that song was from the early '70s.
And that lyric stuckwith me my whole life.
That song was out when I started myfirst transition, and failed, of course.
But , that was it.
I, I agree with you.
That inspired me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there were transgenderpeople even back then.

(49:58):
What an idea!
Yeah.
Can you imagine?
It's not a 2020s phenomenon.
No, not a phase?
It's not.
We've been here, done it all along.
Yeah.
I love that you said it's not aphase or it's a brand new phenomenon.
This never happened before.
I've had people ask me, why do you thinkthere's so many more people identifying

(50:20):
as being transgender and coming out?
In my experience, I had no reasonto believe that I could come out.
I didn't have access to the informationthat people have now on the internet.
I didn't have access to connect withother people who were trans, or who
had these thoughts and feelings.

(50:40):
Like I said, my onlyconnection was pornography.
They're in a magazine and that's the onlyunderstanding I have of transgender is of
transgender people, is this sexualization.
And I knew that wasn't me.
Mm-hmm.
But I wanted to be something like this.
And I didn't understand.
Mm-hmm.

(51:00):
As a pharmacist, what did you see?
Because you worked withpeople in your profession.
I had some experiences as a professional.
I will say this was a coupledecades ago, but these were
again, moments that stuck with me.
So I remember early on in my career Iwas working in a outpatient clinic with
primary care providers and such, andone of my colleagues, was recalling this

(51:20):
story and I witnessed this interaction.
He went out to the exam or to thewaiting room, and he called for Brian
So-and-So, you know, and the way heretold it was, and then this big dude
dressed like a woman stands up and says,
"It's Brianne."
And then everyone starts laughing.
Ah, ha.

(51:40):
That's so funny.
And I'm here, I witnessed it.
She stood up and she goes
" I pronounce it Brianne."
And then they went backand did their appointment.
But the way it was retold turnedit into, a comedy, a farce,
something that was ridiculed.
Mm-hmm.
And I felt horrible about thatinteraction, but I was afraid to

(52:03):
speak up and say anything about it.
So again, I internalized that.
And I felt it like viscerally,
One more reason I can't come out.
When I was in training, I was assignedto a medical team with medical residents
and trainees and an attending physician.
And one of the patients whowas admitted to the hospital
had a blood clot in their legs.

(52:24):
And it's, it was a transgender woman.
And a consequence of the way we used touse estrogens and the type of estrogen
that we used to use that precipitatedor caused an increase in blood clots,
which luckily we don't have to worryso much about that today, but anyway.
They were in the hospitaland I was with the team.
We went into the room, theyinterviewed the patient and she said,

(52:47):
"Please don't tell my boyfriend. Hedoesn't know that I'm transgender."
And I mean, this was a woman who waspretty readily, easy to clock, and so
we went back to the team room and theresident is recounting this interaction
with the patient and just starts laughing
"Yeah, your boyfriend doesn't knowyou're not a woman. Ah ha ha."

(53:08):
And they're laughing about this.
And again, here I am, like dyinginside because I feel so much
different about it than they do.
But I'm afraid, afraid to speak up.
Because I don't want tobe ridiculed like that.
I don't want to be treated like that.
And it was definitely anexperience that stuck with me.

(53:31):
One thing that I'm curious about is, whatsurprises you the most about your life?
I today, I am- how do I say it?
I'm content with who I am.
And I never thought thatI would feel this way.
That is the most important or themost gratifying, the most central

(53:52):
part of my being is that yeah,
I'm okay with who I am.
I can look in the mirror and say,
"I love you."
And I never had that before.
I didn't know that I was goingto be able to look forward to
that, to be honest with you.
I just knew that I had to dosomething about my life and who I was.
That's wonderful.
Congratulations.

(54:12):
I mean, obviously I still havedifficult moments and all that sort
of stuff, but I'm happy with who I am.
Well, is your life different than whatyou expected it would be as a woman?
As a woman.
Okay.
Well.
I never expected to be ableto live as a woman, ever.
I never had that expectation.
I had that desire that I wouldnever be able to achieve.

(54:36):
That's what I had, you know, that Iknew I would never be able to have that.
Um, as a woman, you know what?
Mansplaining is real.
It's a real phenomenon.
I have experiences today that Inever had as a man, and I'm like
No.
Listen, I'm telling you thisis the part I need for my car.

(54:59):
Bring me the part youjust changed off of it.
I want to see what it looks like.
And then getting these verybasic explanations you know,
how gravity works and how thispart connects to the other part.
And, you know,
It's kinda like a donutand you need to do this.
And I'm like
No, it's not a donut.
It's a piece of machinery.
So those experiences are odd.
Very odd.

(55:19):
So people are explaining thingsdifferently and communicating differently.
So the way men communicate and theway women communicate, or the way
that they communicate to women.
Yeah, exactly.
I've been interrupted in meetingsbefore where, I look back, I'm like
This never happened like this before.
So how do you deal with that?
I just, I just acknowledge itfor what it is and move on.

(55:43):
Obviously it depends on the level.
It depends on the intensity.
It depends on the type ofinteraction that I'm having.
It depends if this person is being areal jerk or if they're just, a little
too much, if you know what I mean.
I don't love confrontation, so I'mnot the type of person who likes to
get up in your face about things.
That being said, I will correctpeople in a gentle manner

(56:06):
when I feel it's necessary.
But you know what I tend to not make ahuge deal of those things because I know
I'm not the only one it's happening to.
So you let him get away with it?
Well, again, depends on theperson in the situation.
I have absolutely pulled someoneaside after a meeting and said,
"You know what? That was prettyrude. You need to let me-"

(56:29):
or someone else, when I'vewitnessed it to another woman,
"You need to let them finish. You can't beinterrupting like that." So I definitely
have said that to a handful of people.
But it's not comfortable.
It doesn't come naturally for me.
I don't like being like that.
I don't like being that person.
But I've been in social situations wheresomeone has used what I would consider

(56:51):
language that is sexualized abouttransgender people, or that is often used
by people on the conservative right tolike other transgender, you know, using
They were Trans-ed.
You know,
You're a transgender.
And like correcting people in how theyuse their language, because it matters.
It absolutely matterswith how people see us.

(57:14):
Mm-hmm.
So I definitely will make thosecorrections for people in a gentle
way as gently as I can, but alsofirm, because it's important that
people understand how language isused to weaponize people against us.
And how it's used to make usappear weird, different, other.
Mm-hmm.

(57:35):
How they segregate us fromsociety is through language.
There's a lot of that going on.
There is, there is.
So how does your experienceof being transgender influence
your understanding of empathy?
Immensely.
We don't have a lot of that these days.
Yeah.
So I will say that I first startedbecoming empathetic for other people,

(57:59):
in a genuine way, after I got sober.
And I started meeting people who usedto live on the street, who were homeless
for a while, who had been incarcerated.
I was brought up in a middle class,upper middle class family and livelihood.
And I was rarely around people who wereminorities until I got to college and

(58:19):
started to interact with people fromother cultures, other faiths, other walks
of life that I wasn't exposed to before.
And it's easy when a person hasnever encountered someone who's
different, to make fun of them,because in my experience, these
people weren't friends, they weren'tacquaintances, they weren't loved ones.

(58:41):
They were just someone else.
There's no connection there.
Zero connection.
Exactly.
And so when I got sober and talkedto people who lived behind the
dumpster at Circle K for a year, or,and who are now leading full lives,
and I realized, wow, these are justpeople who were down on their luck.

(59:02):
I was two steps away from that, becauseI didn't have legal consequences.
Those things didn't happen to me, but theysure as well could have happened to me.
And as a result, I realized
Oh, we're one and the same because now,like you and I, we're on the same level.
It's not that they were differentwhen they were living in the street.
That's what I recognize.

(59:22):
They weren't differentthen than they are now.
They're the same person.
And that was a lesson thatwas not easy for me to learn.
And I'm grateful that I went through theexperiences that I did to learn that.
And so that was when I firststarted to learn about empathy.
And then, my exposure to transness,to trans people, to transgender

(59:45):
culture was very stylized, veryidealized, still very binary,
transgender man, transgender woman.
Mm-hmm.
I even had some difficulty withnon-binary people at first.
Not people themselves, but like themoniker non-binary, the designation.
Like how could you be gender fluidand go from one to the other?
That doesn't make sense to me.

(01:00:05):
How could you be somewherein the middle and be both?
That doesn't make sense to mebecause that's not my experience.
My experience is very much on thefeminine side of the spectrum and
getting to know them and realizing that.
Oh, I'm just like you, and you're justlike me, and you feel differently.
I don't have to understand how you feel.

(01:00:26):
Mm-hmm.
I just have to recognize that this is whoyou are and accept you for who you are.
And I hope that other peoplecan accept me for who I am.
This is who I am.
This is the way I am, andagain, I grew into it.
It didn't happen overnight.
It took a lot of work and recognition
I'm the same as you andyou're the same as me.
Tamara, I had a similar experience.

(01:00:49):
I first transitioned,
I didn't know other transgender people.
I had not been part ofthe community either.
And it's been a learning processto understand the whole spectrum
of the community itself.
And that's also something that'sso confusing to the rest of

(01:01:09):
society, the variation of genderexpression throughout the community.
It's both confusing to people,but yet, I'm now finding it
to be a very beautiful thing.
You're right.
They are all people, just like you and I.
Yep.
Yeah.
That absolutely is my experience.

(01:01:31):
And you talk about learningthe lesson of empathy.
Are there other lessons thatkind of were unexpected that
you've learned along the way?
I think one of the lessons that I neverthought I would have the experience
is just being helpful to otherpeople for the sake of being helpful.
Oh, interesting.
For whatever reason, I went through life,I was pretty selfish and self-centered.

(01:01:55):
And and not that I wasn't at timeshelpful or empathetic and, but it wasn't
like I'm intentionally being helpfulor I'm intentionally being empathetic.
Not that I was a bad person,but with different intentions.
And after I got sober, and especiallyafter I came out, I realized I want

(01:02:16):
to be a good person and do good thingsfor the sake of being a good person and
for the sake of doing good things, not.
For the sake of recognition before,if I held the door open for you,
you better say thank you becauseI just did something for you.
Right.
Like,
Come on, acknowledge this effort.
I put into this interaction.

(01:02:38):
It was transactional.
Everything was transactional.
It was because I neededthat external validation.
I needed someone elseto tell me I was worthy.
Now you're getting it internally.
Exactly.
So I have it now.
I don't need to seek it out.
And I actually enjoy those moments whereI do something and then, someone says

(01:03:02):
"Wow, that was so nice. You made my day."
Or
"Thank you so much."
It's a surprise to them.
I'm like,
Oh, that's amazing.
I love having that feeling comeback to me, and it's not something
that I necessarily seek out,but I love it when it happens.
Mm-hmm.
That's so nice.
So do you think there are opportunitiesthat have come to you because

(01:03:22):
you're transgender, or opportunitiesthat have been held away from
you because you're transgender?
A little of both, but more of the former,more opportunities that I didn't expect.
This opportunity right here, of course.
And Lynn, you and I were connectedthrough a mutual friend, my old mentor.
And when he approachedme about it and said,

(01:03:44):
"Hey, I have this friend and I think youshould talk to her. She's writing a book."
And I'm like, Ooh, I don't know.
And then, of course over time, Imet you and I'm like, Oh, okay.
Yeah, you're so sincere.
This is advocacy, right?
This is advocacy for the trans community.
And and I thought,
Yeah, I want to be a part of that.
I want to be a part of that.
I want to be part of something good,something that grows awareness,

(01:04:06):
and recognition, and acceptance.
And so absolutely that.
And then of course, you connected me withsomeone else who is a board member of a
nonprofit medical group that treats HIVand HIV prevention and they're expanding.
And I got involved asa board member there.
And that's been anexperience I didn't expect.

(01:04:26):
I didn't even want.
Reluctantly got involved.
I told you I will reluctantly.
So, when I transitioned and this ispertinent to it, when I first transitioned
openly to the world, I said I'm not goingto close any doors before they open.
And I repeat that to myselffrequently when opportunities
arise and I don't want to do them.

(01:04:49):
And that was one of those moments.
You said
"You should talk to this person."
And I said
"I don't want to, but reluctantly,I'll have a phone call with them
and we'll see what happens."
And then, I mentioned in my career,early in my career I had a focus
in HIV treatment and infectiousdisease on an outpatient basis.
And I was drawn to that, all theseunderlying feelings this desire to

(01:05:11):
get to know them, but at a distance.
And all that we kind oftalked about earlier.
Anyway, this medical group, theirmain focus is HIV prevention and
HIV treatment with expanding intomental health and primary care
and all these different things.
And I'm like, that's right up my alley.
I can't pass up this opportunity,this experience, and it's a volunteer
experience and it's been super rewarding.

(01:05:33):
And it had your name all over it.
I'm glad you did it.
So you're happy with it?
Yeah, I'm so happy with it.
And at times I'm like
Oh, it's going to be busy.
But other times I'm like
All this is so amazing.
So these opportunities to meet peoplein the fields of nonprofits, I've
met a number of people and that'sjust been incredibly fulfilling.
I have had native experiences too.

(01:05:54):
You mentioned that I make pens,custom pens out of woods and resins.
And so I do shows, I doart and craft festivals.
And I did one last fall, in a place whereI had done it five times before, but I'm
very much out as a transgender woman.
It was right after the election of 2024.

(01:06:15):
And it was a very negative experience.
It was a very red cityin Arizona very MAGA.
And so I had a different experiencethere than I had had previously.
It was very negative.
I had eyeballs on a swiveleverywhere I walked.
I had people come into mybooth asking me if I felt safe.

(01:06:39):
That was the firstexperience I'd ever had.
I had people walk into my boothand see me, and as soon as they
heard my voice, turn around andwalk out without saying a word.
And I had never hadthat experience before.
I saw you at that festival.
And I just love seeing you andmeeting your daughter and seeing,
in real life, seeing what you do.

(01:06:59):
The remarkable pens that youmake, they're just gorgeous.
I got one from you for a friendof mine, and she loves it.
Absolutely loves it.
Oh that's awesome.
That's amazing.
I'm glad there are people likeyou in this world, you know?
Yeah.
But there was a lot of that negativity.
Yeah.
See, and that's why wewant to do these shows.
Some of these people are nevergoing to look at our show,

(01:07:19):
or listen to our podcast.
They're just not open to that.
But there are people who just don't know.
And so, to interview you andto interview some of the other
people we're interviewing, we wantto get those stories out there.
So what would you tell people, theopen-minded people who are watching this,
who are just, trying to figure out whatthis transgender journey is all about.

(01:07:42):
What would you tell people about that?
I think there's a couple things that Ireally want people to understand about
me, about other transgender people, isthat I said earlier we're just humans.
We're just people trying to live ourlife the same way everyone else is.
I'm not looking for specialrecognition because I'm transgender.

(01:08:03):
I'm not looking for extra thingsthat other people don't get.
I want, I just want equal treatment.
And equal treatment to me means I cango all the same places that other people
go safely, without feeling physicallythreatened or emotionally threatened.
Because I'm not trying to take overanyone's space, or take over anyone's
jobs, or take over anyone's lives.

(01:08:26):
I just want to be able to live my life thesame way other people are living theirs.
And it's as simple as that.
And to understand that my journey,finding myself as a transgender
woman, has made me, a whole person,has made me emotionally complete,
has made me emotionally fulfilled.
The increase in my qualityof life as a person.

(01:08:49):
Yeah.
I think of quality in healthcareand, I'm somewhat involved in
healthcare outcomes and analysis.
And, we talk about medicationsand treatments that improve
people's quality of life.
I feel better, I interact better.
And all of the things I've beentransitioning to, to live my authentic

(01:09:10):
self, has increased my quality of lifeto a measure I can't even explain.
And I think some people don'tunderstand how much of a change
some of us go through, many of us gothrough, in the quality of our lives.
There's a saying that I heard earlyon in my transition, and it was

(01:09:33):
anonymous, I don't know where itcame from, but I'll paraphrase.
And it was
"Transitioning didn't solveall the problems in my life,
but transitioning made all theproblems in my life worth solving."
Ooh.
And that's absolutely how I feel.
Like I have a purpose in life.
I have a desire to keep going.
I have a desire to be part ofhumanity, and society, and be a

(01:09:56):
productive member, and help otherpeople, and that's all we want.
I would totally agree with that.
That's been my life experiences as welldoing this, and it's why I do what I do.
Yeah.
Well, and I know you said Tamara, thatyou don't stand on the street corner
and advocate, but you're doing thisthrough other things you're doing.
Just interacting withpeople on a daily basis,

(01:10:18):
and your volunteer work.
I know you do some speaking, or havedone some speaking, I think you mentioned
Midwestern University and some of theseother medical programs that you speak at.
So you are making a difference andyou're advocating that way without
walking around the street with a sign.
Yeah I'm not on the streetcorner evangelizing or anything.

(01:10:39):
No.
But I do want people to see transgenderpeople because , we're all over the place.
Mm-hmm.
There's a lot of us.
And they talk about
Oh, it's 1%, less than 1%,maybe a little over 1%,
depending on what study youlook at of people identifying as
transgender, non-binary, et cetera.
A lot of people fly under the radar.
A lot of people neverfill out the surveys.

(01:11:00):
True.
Absolutely true.
An interesting point to that, beforeI came out, my employer used to do
annual surveys of our employees.
A lot of different questions, butsome of those were gender, sexual
orientation, and gender identity.
And before I ever came out, Ichanged my sexual orientation from,

(01:11:21):
heterosexual man, to bisexual.
In secret.
I didn't tell anyone.
Mm-hmm.
It was an anonymous survey, soI'm filling it out that way.
A couple years later,
Oh, what's my gender identity?
It had always been on thesesurveys, the way I was presenting.
And one time I just said
"You know what, I'm just goingto put gender questioning."

(01:11:42):
I'd questioned it all my life,but I was finally to the point
that I could check that box.
It took a long time to get there.
But it was
Okay.
No one's going to find out.
I'm going to, I'm going to be truthful.
I had lied the whole time.
So these little steps that youtook to get to where you are today.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They added up.
They added up.
Yeah,

(01:12:03):
They do.
And you were talking about healthcare.
So let's talk for a minute.
You just had surgeryrecently, top surgery.
And you posted something thatI thought was so profound about
your experience with top surgery.
Do you want to sharethat with our audience?
I'd love to.
So I recently had a gender affirmingtop surgery and I, at my two week

(01:12:28):
post-op appointment, I had told mysurgeon this, that leading up to
the surgery I was having regulardreams that were really negative.
I was having interactions that were withtransphobic people, people outing me,
or accusing me of not being a woman,or not woman enough, all in my dreams.
And I would wake up from thesedreams just feeling awful.

(01:12:51):
Oh, it was horrible.
I don't want to go back to sleep because Idon't want to have that experience again.
I had the surgery done and literallythat night, and every night since,
I've slept through the night and notonce had one of those negative dreams.
And I told my surgeon that atmy two week post-op appointment.
And, I didn't think anythingof it, but I was just like,

(01:13:12):
I want you to know that this is whathappened to me in the last couple weeks.
And I saw him yesterday at mysix week final post-op visit.
And the first thing he saidto me when he came in, he said
"Thank you for telling me that andsharing that experience with me."
He said
"You made my day that day. Youmade my day. And I'm so glad
that you shared that with me."

(01:13:33):
And then afterwards, I was like,
Oh, that's, that's cool.
Like, yeah.
Awesome.
And I was thinking about it on my drivehome, and people who work in healthcare
who provide transgender gender affirmingcare are under attack today by the
current presidential administration.
They're threatened with being cut offfrom Medicare and Medicaid, for not just

(01:13:55):
treatment of transgender youth, but inany gender affirming care for anyone.
And so I was thinking that these cisgenderheterosexual healthcare workers who aren't
in my community of transgender LGBT,queer, whatever you want to classify it.

(01:14:16):
What is their incentive to keepdoing it, to keep caring for us?
And I think it's so important forthem to understand how much of an
impact they make in our lives whenthey give us the care that we need.
That is life affirming,not just gender affirming.
It's life affirming.
My mental health has improved immensely.
More than I ever expected it would.

(01:14:39):
I didn't expect it to be this much ofan impact, and it really has been huge.
I mentioned earlier, my quality oflife has been improved immensely.
I can't even describe howmuch it's been improved.
And that's what healthcare is all about.
Improving the quality of people'slives, whether they're living longer,
but more especially, living better.

(01:15:00):
And we need to as people who receive thiscare, we need to reinforce how important
that is to our cisgender providers.
Because I don't have a choice to notfight for my right to live as who I am.
But you know what I had thisthought that like some of these
providers, they might not be willingto fight the same fight I am.

(01:15:21):
I either fight, or I die.
That's how I look at it.
I can't go on if I'm not willingto fight for myself, but they don't
have that same desperation, thatsame, it's fight or nothing, right?
Like they have the choice to just stopproviding that care, fly under the radar,
keep their practices open, keep theirfunding coming from the government.

(01:15:43):
And so we really need to impart onto themhow amazingly they impact our wellbeing
by the care that they provide to us.
Yeah.
That's wonderful.
And when you say better qualityof life now, who wouldn't
want that for somebody else?
The other thing I was thinkingabout too is we're talking about

(01:16:04):
gender affirming healthcare.
So what's Viagra?
Other cisgender women havebreast augmentation, all
of these different things.
Hair plugs.
Yeah.
About all these different thingsthat are gender affirming healthcare.
Apparently it's okay for cisgender peopleto do those things, but it's not okay for

(01:16:26):
transgender people to do those things.
So to me, it's mind-boggling.
Well, and even when you talk aboutsurgical gender affirming care for
minors, the most common surgicalprocedure for minors that's gender
affirming is boys with gynecomastia,getting breast reduction.
That's the most common.

(01:16:46):
That was came out in a studyjust last year, I think it was
in JAMA, looking at insurancecharges in insurance payments for
youth surgeries.
And that is the most common youthgender affirming surgery, cis males.
Because in puberty, biologically,sometimes boys get breast growth.

(01:17:06):
And that happens.
And well, they feel insecure.
They don't want to take offtheir shirts, so what do you do?
They go get a breast reduction sothat they fit in better, so that
they feel better around their peers.
You know, how is that any different?
And nobody says that's child abuse.
No, not at all.
That's perfectlyacceptable, in those cases.

(01:17:27):
Mm-hmm.
And hormone treatments, right?
HRT, or puberty blockers,things like that for cisgender.
What do you know about that?
Not a ton, but you know, kids whostart going to precocious puberty,
where their puberty is advanced at anearly age, they get puberty blockers
to suspend that a little bit, why?

(01:17:49):
Well, we don't want you looking like agrown girl when you're only 10 or 11 or
12, or vice versa with the boy, right?
I mean, these interventions arestandard practice for cisgender kids
who have this different biology that'saccelerated for whatever reason.
And we're like, okay,we're going to delay that.
How about short kids with who,who get growth hormone injections?

(01:18:11):
Mm-hmm.
So that their bones growlonger, they grow taller.
If that's not a gender affirmingintervention, I don't know what else is.
Yeah.
But nobody worries about those.
You're not trying to changewho you are, just how you look.
I don't know.
It doesn't make sense to me thatthere's a difference in perception
between those two things.

(01:18:32):
And all of the major medical associationsin the US absolutely a hundred
percent affirm that the care providedfor gender affirming care provided
to children who are questioning,who are queer, who are trans, is
lifesaving and is medically necessary.
There is no debate in the medicalscientific community about that.

(01:18:53):
The only debate is in the religiousand political communities.
The scientific medicalcommunity, it's solid.
The evidence is there.
The direct interactions thatproviders have with their clients,
with their patients is concrete.
Mm-hmm.
The only debate is in the religiousand conservative political arenas.

(01:19:15):
Mm-hmm.
And unfortunately, they have veryloud voices and political clout.
And from a pharmacologicalstandpoint, what happens when adults
start taking hormone treatment?
Even your experience whenyou started doing that?
Yeah.
Well, my experience was, I startedgoing through a second puberty.

(01:19:36):
Did you?
That's exactly what it is.
For example, estrogenfor transgender females.
Now, some body changeshave already happened.
Like my body was racked withtestosterone for too many years, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like I have broad shoulders and a broadchest, and I'm tall, and I have long arms,
and all this sort of stuff, big shoulders.
Those changes happened to me.
Now, since I've been on hormones, whatis the most common manifestation of them?

(01:19:59):
Certainly breast augmentation,breast growth is one of those
things that many of us want.
But you know, that's painful.
Just like it is with cisgender girls whenthey go through their female puberty.
But other things happened, too.
My skin got less oily.
It got softer.
Mm-hmm.
My hair started growing slower and Ididn't fall out and disappear the way
I hoped it would, but it slowed down.

(01:20:21):
Things like my voice isn't goingto change, because that's been
affected by the testosterone.
But, there's other medicalchanges or physiological changes.
The testicles start to get smaller fortransgender females because they're
deprived of testosterone, because estrogenwill drop the testosterone and there's
a whole biofeedback loops and things.
Sometimes people need testosteroneblockers specifically,

(01:20:43):
other times, just estrogenalone will be enough to to
reduce the testosterone levels.
Impotence is common for trans women.
Because testosterone is ahormone that promotes sexual
potency, erections, you know.
So that definitely can be diminishedas a result of estrogen, and

(01:21:03):
blocking that testosterone.
And then vice versa, with transgendermales, once they go on to testosterone,
if they've already had breast growth, likeit's not going to get smaller, so that is
a surgical intervention that they have.
But their vocal folds start to thicken,and so their voice will get deeper.
The pitch gets deeper.
They'll start to get oily skin, and hairgrowth, and acne, because that's what

(01:21:29):
happens when boys go through puberty.
Testosterone kicks up, and all ofthose manifestations start to happen.
Their hair grows in thickerand they get facial hair.
And, to that point, so manytransgender men fly under the radar.
They pass as men because onceyou get hair on your face the

(01:21:51):
human interpretation tends to be
mm-hmm.
Beard=man.
Mustache=man.
You know?
And there's no question.
Oh, maybe it's slightlyeffeminate man, but still man.
People see trans men all thetime and don't even know it.
Right.
What about muscle mass?
Oh yeah, I definitely got weaker.
You mentioned I like to mountain bike.
I love being out in the desertand get some serenity that way.

(01:22:14):
But I'll tell you what, I'm not as strong.
I can't ride as far, I can't ride as fast.
There's a common jokeamong many of my friends.
We have cravings for pickles,but we can't open the jar.
That's the, the curse of estrogen.
But it is true.
I don't have the same physicalstrength that I had before.
And I'm not going to say I'm a weakling.
I'm still pretty strong,don't get me wrong.

(01:22:36):
But it's not like I was before.
I definitely lost muscle mass.
I've had some shifting of bodyfat to my hips, and my backside
and anyway, those are wonderful.
All of those things will continueover the next few years for you.
Definitely.
I don't think it really evercompletely stops for a very long time.

(01:23:00):
And what about thechanges in transmasculine?
Do they grow?
They definitely grow muscles.
Testosterone is androgenic.
It helps to build muscle mass.
So as long as they're exercising anddoing physical activity, oftentimes
their muscles will get stronger,bigger they'll have more stamina.

(01:23:21):
They'll open the jarsfor all the trans ladies.
That's just a stereotypical joke,but you know, it's true though.
I see pictures on Facebookof these guys with six packs.
Yeah.
Oh my goodness.
You want me in the women's bathroom?
It's kind of what
Right.
they're saying.
Some of these trans men are,I mean, they're bodybuilders.

(01:23:41):
And I'm like,
Yeah, they do not belongin a women's restroom.
Absolutely.
A hundred percent not.
I don't get the whole bathroom thing.
That makes no sense to me whatsoever.
And I think there areunintended consequences,
There are.
And those consequences are notbeing addressed politically.
No.
They're being ignored.
They're being emphasized, and enhanced.

(01:24:03):
Yeah.
Well, Tamara, I know people aregoing to want to get in touch
with you, so how can they do that?
Easiest way is probably by email.
My email to my pen business.
It's tamara@wryt365.com,that's W-R-Y-T-3-6-5.
And then also you can contact methrough my website at wryt365.com

(01:24:24):
Well, thank you.
And it's a wonderful website.
The pens that you make, as I'vesaid before, just marvelous.
So thank you.
We'll put that in the show notes sopeople can get in touch with you.
And then we want them to comesee you at your next street fair.
So they can find thaton your website, right?
Yes, they can find thosedates on the website.
That'd be great.
Okay, great.
We've had a great conversation, Tamara.

(01:24:44):
Thank you.
Wendy, was there anything else that youwanted to ask or, or bring up today?
I think this has been agreat conversation, Tamara.
Thank you so much for being here today.
Yeah, well thank youso much for having me.
I really enjoyed it.
And anything else you want to say, Tamara?
You know, I'm just going toclose with what I said before.
We're just people.

(01:25:05):
We just want to live ourlives, just like you do.
Yeah.
I'm so glad that you're in my life now andthat you were willing to do this today.
Thank you so much for that.
And let's thank our audience forbeing here today and for tuning in
and for listening to this wonderfulconversation with Tamara Rowland,
who transitioned at the age of 48.

(01:25:25):
So tune in.
You can find us on YouTube, youcan find us on all the podcasts.
Subscribe to our channel, and tunein next time for another exciting
episode with someone who is either borntransgender, parents, family, healthcare
workers, and Wendy and I will be here.
So I'm Lynn Murphy, one of yourhosts, Wendy Cole, your other host.

(01:25:46):
This has been Demystifyingthe Transgender Journey.
Tune in next time andthank you for being here.

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