September 26, 2025 • 63 mins
Understanding Gender Diversity: A Deep Dive with Dr. Diana Sorrentino | Demystifying the Transgender Journey
In this insightful episode of 'Demystifying the Transgender Journey,' hosts Lynn Murphy and Wendy Cole welcome back Dr. Diana Sorrentino, a social psychologist and behavioral analyst with over 40 years of research into gender diversity and transgender identities. Dr. Sorrentino shares her extensive knowledge and personal experiences, providing a nuanced understanding of the neurobiology and physiology behind gender diversity. This episode covers a wide range of topics including the biological basis of transgender identities, the importance of supportive family environments, and the impact of disinformation on public perceptions. Dr. Sorrentino also discusses the process and importance of medical and psychological support during gender transition, debunking myths about detransitioning and rapid onset gender dysphoria. Tune in to gain a comprehensive and scientific perspective on the complexities and nuances of gender diversity.
Dr. Sorrentino is a member of:
- World Professional Association for Transgender Health – WPATH
- Gay Lesbian Medical Association – GLMA
- Outcare – LGBTQ+ Healthcare
Author of Transgender Families: Helping Parents and Families Understand Gender Diversity and Being Transgender Because No One Transitions Alone.
Transgender Families: Sorrentino, Dr Diana: 9798894276953: Amazon.com: Books
Host of Paradoxes of Gender Podcasts – academically focused on CE requirements for medical and behavioral healthcare professionals working with gender diverse and transgender individuals, families, and allies.
Podcast: https://paradoxesofgender.com/podcasts-1
Email: paradoxesofgender@earthlink.net
Website: https://paradoxesofgender.com/
LinkedIn: Dr. Diana Sorrentino, Ph.D.
For More Information:
https://www.thetransgenderjourney.com
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/demystifying-the-transgender-journey/id1799458202
https://womenwhopushthelimits.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lynnmurphy602/
https://www.facebook.com/wendycolegtm
https://www.youtube.com/@wendycole8326
https://www.linkedin.com/in/wendy-cole-gtm
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I did a program for a localLutheran church, 90 minute program,
Understanding Gender Diversityand Being Transgender.
You should have seen the expressionson their face as they came to a better
understanding of what I was sharing,and so many of them just kept saying,
I had no idea.
I had no idea.
(00:21):
Which I would reply,
"How could you?"
Information is noteasily accessible to you.
Accurate, credible, factual information.
You're being fed disinformationand misinformation,
which distracts you fromwhat's really taking place.
It's empowering when you havetheir attention and they're
(00:44):
willing to listen and learn.
Providing them with thatfoundation of knowledge, and then
steering them in the direction ofresources, whether it's my books,
or other sources of information.
So you want to dig deeper?
All the information is there thatI've used for research and more
(01:09):
because there's biologicalbasis to all of this.
What do you really know aboutpeople who were born transgender?
Have you ever met someonewho's transgender?
Well, if you're like me, you'recurious but hesitant to ask questions.
Well, welcome to
Demystifying the Transgender Journey.
In our conversations with people who wereborn transgender, their families, friends,
(01:31):
and their professionals who support them,we ask probing questions and discover
insightful and educational answers.
You can also find more information onour website thetransgenderjourney.com.
Now, let's get right into today's episode.
Welcome today to another episode ofDemystifying the Transgender Journey.
(01:52):
I'm one of your hosts, Lynn Murphy.
Author, speaker, and podcast host.
Your other host today is Wendy Cole,who is a transition mentor, and she
transitioned at 67 years old, andcoaches lots of people who are in
transition, not just with their gender.
You know, we're all changingfrom one day to the next,
and she's a great coach in that area.
(02:15):
Our goal with this program is toeducate people, to share stories,
provide unique perspectives ofdifferent people, their personal
experiences, their authentic journey.
And what we're trying to do is tochange people's attitude, give them
access to people and to topics thatthey really don't know anything about.
(02:35):
So we're educating people, and tryingto get past that disinformation
and misinformation that's floatingaround—actually seems like it's
right on top of our head some days—that's going around social media
and other areas of the world today.
We are so honored today to have areturning guest, Dr. Diana Sorrentino.
(02:57):
She shared with us in the first episodethat we did with her more a personal, very
heartfelt story of her own transition.
And today she's back as an expert,going to be talking about the science
and all her research into gender..
Dr. Diana Sorrentino, what do you call it?
(03:17):
Gender differences?
Well, gender diversity andtransgender identities.
Alright.
A good encapsulating
topic subject.
So I'm going to ask Dr. Sorrentinoto introduce herself to the
audience, and we'll get rightinto some of her conversations.
Dr. Sorrentino, thankyou for being here today.
(03:40):
Lynn.
Wendy.
It's an honor and privilege to join youonce again, and to our guests joining
us wherever you are, at whatever time,
my name is Dr. Diana Sorrentino.
I am a social psychologistand behavioral analyst.
I have doctoral degrees inpsychology, as well as sociology.
(04:04):
My research into the neurobiologyand physiology of gender diversity
and transgender identity starteda little over 40 years ago.
As I was coming to terms with developingan understanding of my own life
experiences with gender diversity and
(04:27):
at the time, gender dysphoria.
And for more than 35 years now, I havebeen working with medical and behavioral
healthcare professionals, assistingthem in their clinical practices
as well as to provide educationaltraining and programs for them.
I'm the author of three books.
Transgender Families (04:50):
Helping Parents and Families Understand Gender
Diversity and Being Transgender,
The Neurobiology and Physiologyof Incongruent Gender Identities
and Sexual Orientation.
That is more of a biology bookfor the medical and behavioral
(05:10):
healthcare practitioners, becauseit gets into the deep neurobiology,
physiological aspects originating inutero of who we are as individuals.
My third book is Adolescent GenderAffirming Medical and Behavioral
Healthcare for the professionals,as well as for the family, and
(05:33):
a transitioning individual.
Much more in-depth.
It's the equivalent of a graduatelevel textbook, coming in at a little
over 900 pages and 258,000 words.
It's a tome.
I'm a recognized subject matterexpert nationally in this
arena, in this profession.
(05:54):
So my job tonight working with Lynn andwith Wendy is to share that knowledge,
my research, my experience, because asone individual put it so eloquently,
better than I could have, my degree inpsychology focuses on the individual.
(06:15):
My degree in sociology looks at morethe global aspect and the influence.
And my lived experience, mytransition took place, I prefer to
call it my evolution, in January of1990, a little over 35 years ago.
Mm-hmm.
So I have time under my belt, I havethe research, I have the credentials.
(06:41):
Where would you like to start?
Well, you have lots of credentials.
I appreciate you, sharing thatencapsulation so that people understand
that you are definitely the expert in thisfield, from all those different aspects.
Let's talk about terminologyfirst, just to make sure people
are on the same page with us.
(07:01):
Difference between, or at least define,transgender, non-binary, gender fluid.
And maybe let's throw inintersex because that's something
that people don't understand.
Alright.
Let's start with intersex,
which the term has been replaced recentlyby Disorder of Gender Development.
(07:25):
And what an intersex conditionbasically means is an individual
may have an extra chromosome, couldbe XXY, could be XYY, and at least
a half a dozen other variations.
At birth, it may look like theindividual is a female because of the
(07:50):
presentation of what might be a vagina, orincongruent, where the scrotum and penis
is not visible at that point in time.
And to drive this point home, Iwas asked to work with a family a
number of years ago, child was born.
(08:12):
And congratulations, Mom and Dad,
you have a beautiful baby girl.
Well, all through prepubescentchildhood, this individual did
not accept or become involved withthe typical female activities.
(08:36):
Refused to wear a dress, wouldprefer to be out in the t-shirt and
shorts with the boys, and so forth.
Well, Mom and Dad just thoughttheir daughter is a tomboy.
Well, for XX genetic females, pubertykicks in between the ages of 10 and 12.
(08:56):
Now, some start earlier, precociouspuberty, others are a little delayed.
Well, they make a very long storyshort, at age 12, there were no
breast developments, and there wasno menses, no period has started.
Which is unusual for an XX fetus.
(09:16):
Colleague of mine has a10-year-old daughter who's
already had her first period.
So at first, Mom and Dad thought,
She's a late bloomer.
Well, by age 14, nothing had changed.
So of course now Mom's concerned,takes the daughter to the
gynecologist for an examination, andit appears that she has a vagina.
(09:39):
But it turns out she does not.
It's impartial.
So blood work is ordered,echocardiogram is ordered.
X-rays, chromosome test, the full battery.
And what they learn is theirdaughter is XY, not XX.
(10:02):
The gonads are there, but they neverdescended to become testes, and they
never moved up to become ovaries.
Now what's an interesting fact thatmost people do not realize, is that
during fetal development, the gonadsin the XX fetus will become ovaries.
(10:24):
The same gonads in the XY fetus willbecome testes, and if they do not
develop the way they're supposed to,you end up with an intersex condition
or Disorder of Sexual Development.
(10:44):
It's very common.
It's like one in a thousandbirths fall into this category.
So this is something that peoplearen't necessarily aware of right away.
No, they're not.
Now, sometimes the genitals are morepronounced as far as disfiguration,
where it may look like it's justan enlarged clitoris when it
(11:04):
could be a penis, and so forth.
There are so many different variations.
Fascinating from the biology standpoint.
Yeah.
You're also telling us thatthere aren't just two sexes,
but we'll get into that later.
Well, you have biological sex,and you have brain sex, and
all of this develops in utero.
(11:28):
Now you mentioned thegender-fluid individual.
I'm working with a family right now.
They have an 11-year-oldassigned male at birth who,
I'm not a boy, but I'm not a girl either,
you know?
Mm-hmm.
And the individual is in this middlezone, I believe, trying to discern
(11:51):
where they're going with their future.
But at age 11, that's okay.
How can they figure what they'regoing to do at 15, 16, 18, or 20.
When you're 11 years old.
Transgender is very simply, I was assignedmale at birth, but from a psychological
perspective and a perception of who Iwas as an individual, I wasn't a boy,
(12:15):
but it took me many years to come tothe realization that I was female.
Or those who are assigned female at birth,who at some point come to the realization
that they're not female, they're male.
Now, for some individuals, they can veryclearly delineate during prepubescent
(12:36):
childhood, usually no later than age five,that they are a gender which is different
from their sex assignment at birth.
Gender is more than just genitals.
Mm-hmm.
Others like myself, because in 1966when all this hit me like a tsunami,
(13:01):
there were no resources available.
So it took a number of years beforeI finally found information, support
groups, the right professionalsto work with, to come to a full
understanding of who I was as a woman.
(13:22):
And not based on my sexassignment at birth.
Let's talk about the biology of it.
Because you have so muchresearch, science behind this.
What happens in utero thatdetermines one thing or another?
At conception, and duringearly development, all embryos
(13:43):
are female, whether XX or XY.
Typically, within the first six toeight weeks of fetal development with
an ultrasound, you'll be able to discernwhether it's possibly a boy or a girl.
(14:04):
At that point, the brain is stillin the default female state.
If it's an XY fetus, male,
in the latter part of the thirdtrimester, the brain will need
to become masculinized to draw itaway from the default female state.
(14:31):
Common logic would say, oh,Testosterone masculinize the brain.
It does, but indirectly.
Synthesized estrogen, which is producedfrom the testosterone by the aromatase
enzyme, which is then processedthrough the estrogen receptor pathway,
(14:57):
will masculinize the brain.
So it's actually syntheticestrogen created from testosterone,
by the aromatase enzyme, thatwill masculinize the brain.
Now, researchers have clearly identified21 different variants in 19 genes.
(15:18):
That's basically where the wholeconcept of gender variant, and
gender variant behavior begins.
Exactly.
So if all works well, then the latterpart of the third trimester, the XY
fetus's brain will become masculinized.
However, if those 21 variants in the 19genes in the brain's pathways interfere
(15:46):
with the masculinization of the brain,the child will be born phenotypical male
with genitals, XY, but the brain will havebeen remained in the default female state.
That's so fascinating thatevery fetus starts out female.
(16:09):
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
And then there's a recipe, and if therecipe's not right, if this soup that
you're talking about, you're not right...?
You're on the mark.
Now in the XX fetus, and the latterpart of the third trimester, the brain
must remain in the default female state.
(16:33):
Now, not as much testosterone as inthe XY fetus, but there are still
sufficient testosterone that'llbe modified through the aromatase
enzyme into synthesized estrogen.
With an attempt to masculinizethe brain of the XX fetus.
(16:55):
DNA methylation will block thatfrom occurring, allowing the brain
to remain in the female state,
so at birth you have a phenotypicalfemale with a female brain.
It's an oversimplification becauseit's much more complex than
what I've just shared with you.
(17:17):
I can just imagine.
Okay.
The older term is mutations where todaywe call them variants to these genes.
An endocrinologist I washaving a conversation with a
few years ago commented that,
Birth is truly a miracle of nature.
(17:39):
And it's like the orchestraunder the guide of a conductor.
Every note has to be hit, precise time,everyone performing the right pitch,
the right tone, at the right speed.
And if there's a deviation, the conductorwill know, maybe some people in the
(18:03):
audience will recognize it, but itsounds good to the casual listener.
Everything has to occurperfectly at every stage along
in fetal development.
But once a child is
born XY, with a female brain, or XX, witha male brain, they will have it for life.
(18:30):
And there is nothing thatcan be done to change that.
Mm-hmm.
And an example I always useis the case of David Reimer.
There's a great book, it's a truestory, the author is John Colapinto.
As Nature Made Him is the title.
(18:51):
1966, Winnipeg, Canada.
Twin Boys were born and during thecircumcision of one of the boys,
the penis was irrevocably damaged.
The parents learned about the new genderclinic at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore.
They brought the child there, andpsychologist, the sexologist, John Money,
(19:16):
and the professionals there convincedthe parents that nurturing was more
powerful than nature, and that theycould raise this child as a girl and
the child would never know any better.
Mm-hmm.
So at about age two, minor surgerywas performed to make it look like the
child had a vagina, child was placedon hormones, and nurtured, as a girl.
(19:42):
It did not work.
Right.
There was an attempted suicide,child was taken to a psychologist.
Neither the child, or thepsychologist was told the history.
And once the individual learned,rejected the female identity that
was assigned to them by the parents.
(20:03):
Took the name David, in comparison toDavid and Goliath, went back to being
male, where he should have been fromday one, married, adopted children,
and has moved on with his life.
It's a very powerful read andit underscores that once the
brain is locked into a genderidentity, it's not going to change.
(20:29):
It's been tried, it does not work.
So is there a gay gene or atransgender gene that as you're
saying, can't be changed, right?
Is there something biological thatdetermines their sexual preference?
In my second book, the Neurobiologyand Physiology of Incongruent Gender
(20:52):
Identities and Sexual Orientations,I delve into that very, very deeply.
There's no singular gay gene.
There's no singular transgender,or gender diversity gene.
But multiple factors will comeinto play to create the variants.
(21:17):
What takes place in the mind of adeveloping fetus and young child
who becomes transgender is not allthat different from the individual
who will be gay or lesbian.
Can you elaborate on that just a bit?
Prepubescent children prior to ageseven, are known for gender fluid
(21:42):
behavior, cross-gender role play,and fluidity in their identity.
That's a normal part ofearly childhood development.
If you have that prepubescentchild, assigned male at birth,
has the male brain, by ageseven, that behavior dissipates.
(22:07):
They start spending more time withtheir peers, and their behavior
changes to more masculine.
The same thing with the XX fetus.
Seven or eight, the behavior willchange to that of the stereotypical,
phenotypical female and they moveon preparing to enter puberty.
(22:30):
These are the individuals who willactually look forward to puberty and the
secondary sex characteristics and otherdevelopments that'll take place at that
point in time during their evolution.
Then you have others who duringthat prepubescent period of
fluidity will begin to say,
(22:52):
I'm not a boy, I'm a girl.
and,
I'm not a girl, I'm a boy.
This does not disappearat age seven, eight.
If anything, it may become all themore entrenched, and if they're not
supported by their parents and family,and are being forced to remain in the
(23:13):
mold that's been assigned to them,
the dysphoria, the stress andthe emotional depressions will
kick in the closer they become
to their beginning of puberty.
This is why puberty blockers areso effective and so important.
Then you have the other group.
(23:34):
Prepubescent children that showsimilar fluidity and behavior, who did
not say they're a different gender,
but will move on and maintainthat fluidity in behavior.
And they're the ones who becomeidentified as gay or lesbian.
(23:55):
Okay.
So does that mean that gay and lesbianpeople are also gender expansive?
I wouldn't say that, and I did notaddress it as such in my book, but their
orientation, to who they wish to be withintimately, life partner, whatever, is
(24:22):
in their plan of action, you might say.
That's where they're going to go.
And this contributes to it.
That's something that'snot changeable either.
No.
Right.
Yeah.
So in the prepubescent childhood,when a child is experimenting,
(24:44):
whether they're content with it,or whether they're thinking, they
know that they're a differentgender, is a medical intervention
at any point there called for?
There's no medical interventionwhatsoever for prepubescent children.
There's no surgical interventionfor prepubescent children.
(25:07):
Period.
End of discussion.
Regardless of what we're readingand hearing at different points.
Right.
What we're reading and hearing is,
My God, you're butchering children.
Well, let's pause for a moment.
An 8-year-old and a 16-year-oldare children, right?
An 8-year-old and a16-year-old are minors.
(25:29):
That's why I always clearly differentiateprepubescent children from adolescents.
A prepubescent child who is insistent,consistent, and persistent in
their belief that they are a genderwhich is incongruent with their sex
assignment at birth, may be allowedto socially transition, go full-time
(25:56):
in their alternative gender, but nomedical, no hormones, no surgical.
This makes it easier for them and thefamily as they migrate through school,
and it's also a period where theycould try on to see how the shoe fits.
(26:16):
Hmm.
And if it's not working for them,it's a very easy reverse process.
Hormones—
cross-sex gender affirming hormones—
would never be introducedbefore the age of 16.
The only thing that's introduced earlierwould be gonadotropin-releasing hormone
(26:39):
agonist, which is your puberty blocker,
to put a pause— and I emphasize pause—on the development of the secondary sex
characteristics that occur during puberty.
For the female, especiallyimportant to prevent breast
development, and to delay menses.
(27:02):
For the XY fetus, deepening of thevoice, the development of the Adam's
apple, facial hair, and the list goes on.
This also provides a period oftime for the adolescent to assume
the other gender role full time.
(27:25):
It's reversible.
Mm-hmm.
If it turns out it's not appropriatefor cross-sex gender affirming
hormones, puberty blockers arediscontinued, puberty kicks in
immediately, and all the developmentwill take place, just a little delayed.
Because puberty is not over at 18.
(27:47):
It can continue much later.
Isn't that into the mid twenties?
Yes.
Now, before puberty blockers wouldeven be administered, a complete
physical examination, physical health,metabolic profiles, comprehensive blood
profile, bone mineralization studieswould be done to develop a baseline.
(28:15):
A psychologist working with theparents and the individual would
clear the individual to commencewith the puberty blockers,
because it's a controlled process.
This isn't something you dialup on Amazon and decide you're
gonna take puberty blockers..
(28:36):
No.
It sounds very complex.
Pediatrician.
You have the endocrinologist,you have the psychologist,
all play an interdisciplinaryrole for the delivery of care.
And Wendy, the work that you're doing,and a great deal of work that I'm
doing with individuals and families,
this is a tour guide and mentor to helpguide them along their path of evolution.
(29:04):
It'll help them understand what to expect,
what it's going to requireof them moving forward.
After the puberty blockers aredetermined to be appropriate and
successful, cross-sex, gender affirminghormones can be started late 15, 16.
(29:25):
Surgery of any type, whethervaginoplasty, breast removal, breast
enhancement, and so forth, wouldnot take place until after age 18.
Those are the establishedprofessional protocols.
And am I correct in what I've heardthat puberty blockers are used for
(29:47):
cisgender children too at times?
That this is not exclusivelysomething that's being used on
or by people who are transgender?
Puberty blockers have been used sincethe '60s to treat precocious puberty
in female children, XX children.
(30:08):
This is where they'll move into pubertyat age seven, eight, or nine, when
especially they're not psychologicallyor mentally ready for those developments.
I had a guest on a couple years ago,and she had a precocious puberty.
So they've been around.
(30:30):
You know, the problem we runinto is there's too many myths,
too much hyperbole, too manypathological assumptions, and of
course, the geopolitical arrogance.
All based on misinformation,disinformation, and I'll
say bluntly, stupidity.
(30:50):
And lies.
Yeah.
Well, those are thepathological assumptions.
Yeah.
Thank you for making surethat we understand that.
So as the child moves into puberty, evenchildren who do not have gender dysphoria,
or children who are outside the binary,
(31:13):
puberty isn't always themost fun for children anyway.
So what happens with a child who has thegender dysphoria, or is questioning, or
is gender fluid, what happens to themduring puberty, depending on external
influences as well as internal influence?
(31:33):
If the individual entering puberty,assigned male at birth, or female at
birth, is supported by their parentsand family, have been properly assessed
and evaluated and cleared by theinterdisciplinary team of professionals,
puberty blockers are a pause button.
(31:56):
It helps remove the anxiety for theindividual who's on the path of being
transgender, that they're not goinghave to deal with the secondary sex
characteristic developments thatwould normally take place at puberty.
And as I mentioned earlier, for theXX, or XY individual who's not on the
(32:22):
path to being transgender, they'relooking forward to those developments.
I've heard conversations about girls12, 13, 14, talking about their periods.
And the 10, 11 year olds, you know, say,
When am I getting my period?
You know, for them it's somethingthey're looking forward to.
(32:42):
The boys, the XY, the deepening ofthe voice, the development of facial
hair, redistribution of fat, being alittle leaner, a little more muscular,
it's all welcome.
For the individual who is going to betransgender, or is transgender, those
developments are unwarranted, and ifthey're not supported by their parents
(33:05):
and family, it creates tremendousdysphoria, emotional distress, and in
many cases, clinical levels of depression.
Mm-hmm.
So there are other thingsgoing on in adolescence too.
You know, a sense of who theyare, a sense of self, a sense of
(33:26):
self-worth and self-acceptance.
How does this come to play with someonewho is transgender, gender dysphoric?
Again, if they are under the properguidance and have family support,
adolescents, they deal at a morepositive rate than their cisgender peers.
(33:50):
Hmm.
Okay.
Better than their cisgender peers.
Interesting.
So when parents are supportive and,affirming of their true identity that
they've expressed, they just don'thave the psychological distress from
it, is what I think you're saying.
Okay.
There's a family I worked with years ago.
(34:14):
I was entered into the equationwhen the individual was 12 years
old, assigned male at birth.
Mm-hmm.
And all through prepubescence,
I'm not a boy, I'm a girl.
I was brought in to work withthe parents to give them a better
understanding of the neurobiology, thephysiology, and all that heavy duty
stuff, and to coach and work with them.
(34:38):
This individual was clearedfor puberty blockers at age
12, cleared for hormones at 15.
Had a vaginoplasty at 16, which is early.
Yeah.
How did that happen?
I thought there was reallyhard, fast rules about that
(34:58):
within the medical community.
There's fast rules.
There's hard rules, butthey're flexible rules.
Okay.
This individual was progressingso phenomenally well, you know,
it was breaking all the rules.
Off to college.
She's now a junior, honorroll, straight A student.
(35:23):
Mm-hmm.
Drop dead gorgeous.
Has a boyfriend, is sexually active.
And it was funny, having aconversation with Mom one day.
She goes,
It works!
It works!
I was surprised that the surgeon and theteam approved 16 for the vaginoplasty,
(35:48):
but this individual was more maturethan the age chronologically, and
there was not a bump in the road.
This is where the interdisciplinaryteam is so important.
Mm-hmm.
Pediatrician, the endocrinologist,the psychologist, and the
(36:14):
stakeholder from the community.
Individuals like yourself,Wendy, and myself.
So that people understand what'srequired, what's expected, and to
provide them with the support thatthey need as their life evolves.
I love hearing thepositive stories like that.
(36:37):
Let's take a minute to lookat the other side of that.
What happens, what kind of statistics dowe hear when there isn't the supportive
family or the supportive medical team?
The suicidal ideation rate foradolescents, transgender adolescents,
whether assigned male or female at birth,who are not supported by their family and
(37:00):
are forced into the mold based on theirsex assignment at birth, the suicidal
ideation rate has hit as high as 70%.
Mm-hmm.
Suicidal attempts, 40%.
Death by suicide, in the 20% range.
Now during adolescence, suicidalideation for their cisgender peers
(37:24):
is relatively high as well, butnot as high as the transgender
individual who is not supported.
But the adolescent who is supported,their suicidal ideation rate is
lower than their cisgender peers.
Mm-hmm.
That's a great statisticfor people to understand.
(37:44):
And that they are getting that kindof care and the difference that it
makes in a family, think about havingchildren, wanting your child to be happy.
How can people turn away from this?
Well, you'd be amazed.
Yeah, I know.
I've heard.
What I've found in my work is when aparent or parents plural, or the family
(38:08):
at large, are not supportive, they aremore concerned in regard to the impact the
evolution is going to have on their lives.
Mm-hmm.
Their friends.
Their social networks.
Their profession.
Their work.
They're more concerned about themselves.
(38:30):
And in many cases would rather carve outthe tumor, that they perceive it to be,
which is why many of these individualsare expelled from the household.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Because they don't want to deal with it.
Homelessness among trans teens has becomevery high in a lot of major cities.
(38:52):
Most definitely.
There's one family I'm workingwith right now, you know, the
mother is fully supportive of the11-year-old assigned male at birth.
I'm not a boy, but I'm not a girl either.
Dad, I met with him once with the mom.
(39:14):
Dad refuses, through co-parenting,
they're divorced, to lettheir child meet with me.
He refuses to meet with me again.
He won't deal with it.
That's so sad.
And sad for the wholefamily, sad for the child.
(39:36):
Yeah.
So when you're working with peopleand they come in, they're confused,
this is going on with theirchild, and you start talking to
them about the science of it all.
Does that usually get them moreaccepting and give them a path they're
working through this in a positive way?
Well, what it does is it allowsthem to develop a foundation
(39:57):
mm-hmm.
to start developing an understanding.
A few years ago, I conducted aprogram for the local chapter of SHRM,
Society for Human Resource Management,
and at the end of the program,gentleman approached me very somber,
(40:18):
very distraught, almost in tears.
I'm living this.
I'm living this.
I love my child, but Idon't understand this.
I don't know what to do.
So I sat him down for aconversation, which ended up being
an hour and a half, and I said,
(40:41):
"Please share with me."
I don't understand this.
Now, at that point, he knew I wasan affirmed woman, which is probably
why he wanted to speak with me.
So I asked him.
"Your child- sex assigned at birth?"
Male.
Okay.
"Child's transitioning to female?"
(41:02):
Correct.
"How old is your child?"
17.
Well, I paused because inmy mind, that's not a child.
That's an adolescent.
But I wanted him to fully appreciatethat I was not just listening, but I
was hearing, and showing empathy to him.
(41:22):
So I kept using child.
I had covered most of the biologyand the physiology during my program,
but I covered it in greater detail.
And he goes,
I, I asked my child to talk to meand to share with me what's going
on, and they don't say anything.
(41:42):
Which I replied,
Your child is still sortingthings out for themselves.
And it's very difficult to share withyou what they're experiencing until
such time as they have a better graspon what it is they're experiencing.
(42:03):
Review it again, theneurobiology, physiology.
And then I ask them,
"What is your fear?What are you afraid of?"
Mm-hmm.
My child's future.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
I said, "Look at me."
I said, "There are the two top surgeonsin the country performing affirmation
(42:28):
surgeries are both affirmed women."
I said, "We are out thereas professionals, very
successful in our lives."
"Your child will have a successfullife. Your child needs your
unconditional love and support."
Well, what do I do about family?
(42:50):
Well, they're going to need to adapt.
But if you develop a better understandingof why this has taken place, how this has
taken place, and that begins in utero,
your knowledge and understanding,and most importantly, acceptance,
(43:13):
will make it easier for familyto understand and accept.
And that's unconditional acceptance.
Unconditional.
There's a family I worked with,
transgender son.
(43:35):
The grandmother refusedto accept transition.
Kept buying
the grandchild, female things.
Refused to use the pronouns, refusedto use the name, constantly dead named.
(43:56):
And then one day at the hairdresser, howthe conversation initiated wasn't shared,
but it turns out that thewoman who did her hair has a
transgender niece, female to male.
All of a sudden, the two of them hadsomething common ground to talk about.
(44:18):
It took two years, but thegrandmother made a 180°, embraced
her grandson and moved on.
The challenge for parents is, it
comes as a shock, number one.
(44:40):
Number two, it's like a ghost in the room.
It's not something theycan grasp and understand.
My work with parents is to helpestablish that foundational
knowledge, neurobiology, physiology,that there is a basis for this.
(45:02):
A legitimate basis for the developmentof an incongruent gender identity.
And that it's not going tochange and it's not going to hurt
the individual, provided thefamily provides that unconditional
love, support, and allyship.
(45:25):
And they can help educate othermembers, which is so important.
Which is what you werejust saying to this father.
Earlier this year, I did a programfor a local Lutheran church, 90
minute program, Understanding GenderDiversity and Being Transgender.
There were 60 people in attendance.
(45:46):
You should have seen the expressionson their face as they came to a better
understanding of what I was sharing.
And so many of them just kept saying,
I had no idea.
I had no idea.
Which I would reply,
"How could you? Information isnot easily accessible to you."
Accurate, credible, factual information.
(46:08):
You've got the geopolitical arrogance,you have the hyperbole, you have
the pathological assumptions.
You're being fed disinformation andmisinformation, which distracts you
from what's really taking place.
It's empowering when you havetheir attention and they're
(46:32):
willing to listen and learn.
Providing them with that foundation ofknowledge and then steering them in the
direction of resources, whether it's mybooks, or other sources of information.
Which is why in my books, especiallythe second and third editions,
(46:52):
I have extensive glossaries.
Citations.
So you want to dig deeper?
All the information is there thatI've used for research, and more.
Because there is biologicalbasis to all of this.
(47:13):
There's so much social media out therethat it seems like some people would just
find it easier to absorb, as you callit, stupid stuff, which I agree with you,
there's a lot of stupid stuff out there.
But are people just absorbing that andassuming, without applying any critical
thinking to it, that that's the facts.
(47:34):
Well,
when they do that, all they're saying is
They don't want to be bothered.
Yeah.
They do not want to be bothered.
Maybe it has to be personal for them tofeel like they have an investment in time
and in a relationship to do something.
(47:55):
Here's another great example.
My father had a very close friend,a New Jersey State Trooper.
This guy was so over the tophomophobic, it was unbelievable.
To the point of being nasty.
He had two daughters.
(48:17):
And then one day the youngerdaughter informed Mom and Dad
that she's a lesbian.
You want to talk about sticker shock?
I'm sure.
Alright.
So all that hateful rhetoric weused to listen to for years..
Now, he had to deal with his own daughter.
(48:39):
It came home to him.
Yeah.
Now it was personal.
Yeah.
One of the things that we hear about, andthere've been, been phony studies in my
opinion about people who detransition.
Have you had experience or can you quoteany kind of statistics on, on that issue?
(48:59):
Dutch longitudinal studies have proven,as they've followed individuals who've
transitioned for over 30 years, thatthe detransition rate is less than 1%.
It's infinitesimal.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You have individuals whotransition because they think
(49:25):
it's going to make their lifeeasier, or solve their problems.
And they have not worked with theproper interdisciplinary team to make
certain that they are an appropriatecandidate for gender affirmation.
Now, who gets lumped into thatcategory that we read about in the
(49:46):
media, are individuals who willdetransition, which not really
a detransition, by discontinuinghormones so they can have a child.
Oh, okay.
Or detransition because they havenot been able to have their travel
documents, passports, et cetera, updatedto reflect their affirmed gender, so
(50:11):
it'd be easier for them to travel.
That's not a detransition,that's a pause button.
Mm-hmm.
But globally, the detransitionrate is less than 1%.
Now there's a new concept flowingaround that's already been debunked.
Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria,ROGD, it's a social antagonism.
(50:42):
There's no such thing.
Those individuals who quote unquotefell into that category, which
is not a legitimate diagnosis,are usually teenagers who
feel out of place in their family.
It could be assigned female at birth,brothers who were receiving the attention.
(51:07):
There are many dynamics in play, butit really boils down to a psychological
disorder for the individual, as far aswho they are and their self-worth, and
has nothing to do with gender identity.
Because when I'm presentedwith an individual like that,
(51:27):
I start inquiring from theparents as well as the individual.
Well, tell me about yourprepubescent childhood.
What did you do?
What didn't you do?
How did you play?
And if there's no history of gender-fluidbehavior, or insistency, persistency,
(51:48):
or consistency their gender is differentfrom their sex assigned at birth.
You don't just wake upone morning and say,
I'm not a boy, I'm a girl.
I'm not a girl, I'm a boy.
It doesn't work that way.
Mm-hmm.
If that does develop, thereare bigger issues at play
psychologically for the individual.
(52:09):
Because that person would never becleared for any type of affirmation
intervention, medical or otherwise,because they do not have a
historical foundation leading to it.
When I attended my first support groupand I spoke to those in attendance, I was
(52:32):
blown away, there were 40 people there.
The stories were all the same, likethey were telling me about my own life.
Mm-hmm.
And when I work with individuals and theyshare their history, it's consistent.
You cannot make it up.
Even though they find informationon the internet, it's not the same.
(52:55):
Mm-hmm.
So there's something else goingon with people in that situation.
I always say that no little boy isgoing to just by choice one day say,
Oh, I'm a girl.
And insist on that.
Not with the socialization wego through from birth because
of that sex assignment at birth.
(53:15):
We know that it's wrong by thetime we begin to approach puberty.
And I knew it was wrongfor me before age five.
Yeah.
And that's not uncommon.
I know it's not.
I've found that all out.
And I was gaslit by my parents by thepsychiatrist they took me to in the 1950s.
(53:37):
Yeah.
Oh, you're the only onethat thinks like this.
Yeah.
Well then what are you gonnado about Christine Jorgensen?
Exactly, and I am convinced also thatall the stress and anxiety that I
felt before telling my parents at age10, and then especially after I was
(54:03):
literally forced into the closet tohide my secret by my parents, threatened
to be committed to a psych facility,
I'm convinced that all of that that Iexperienced through my teenage years,
into my early twenties, when I triedto transition and then after a disaster
(54:24):
and I gave up and moved forward witha heteronormative life, the stress of
hiding this, the stress of having grownup with it, the stress and the fear, and
the trauma from all of the stuff thatI faced from 10 into my early twenties,
that totally changedthe course of my life.
(54:48):
Absolutely.
All my energy was going into that.
Yeah.
Oh, for all of us.
There's a marvelous book to read.
It's called Wondrous Transformations.
Basically the medical lifehistory of Harry Benjamin.
Oh, wow.
And what a great read, because he becamethe father of transgender medicine.
(55:12):
Mm-hmm.
And the World Professional Associationfor Transgender Health, which
I'm a member of was originallythe Harry Benjamin International
Gender Dysphoria Organization.
Mm-hmm.
And once, Christine Jorgensen andothers, we came out of the woodwork,
(55:36):
we were forced into hiding, as you put it,
because society would not accept us.
Mm-hmm.
My case was a little bitdifferent, everybody's case
is a little bit different.
It's amazing, isn't it?
When I made the decision that I wasready for my life's evolution, I like to
(55:59):
refer to, as you know, I stepped acrossthe line, I adopted the female binary.
I got on with my life and Iturned around and looked and
I go, What was the big deal?
Like, Why did I wait so long?
I know.
We've had an outstanding conversationabout the biology of this, and
Dr. Sorrentino, I know that we'regonna have other conversations
(56:21):
about other things because youare such an expert on the topic.
You've got so much to share with us.
But let's wind up today, for this episode,as far as the biology and the through
adolescence that we've talked about.
So would you summarize just someof the things that you have said.
I mean some of my takeaways fromthis, like one is, that it's not
(56:43):
an illness, that can be cured.
Are there some other takeaways from thisthat we can end this episode live today?
Well, it's not a pathology.
It's not a psychologicalor mental illness.
It is biological.
We lost that diagnosticdiagnosis code in 2012, correct?
(57:03):
Uh, pretty much so.
Okay.
Okay.
It used to be Gender Identity Dysphoria,then it became Gender Dysphoria because
a lot of pressure was put on the AmericanPsychiatric Association to sort of
get with the program because mm-hmm.
It took them years to disqualify beinggay or lesbian as a psychological issue.
(57:30):
So it takes time.
The medical knowledge that I sharedis really as of the 21st century.
The imaging studies, whether it'sFunctional Magnetic Resonance Imaging,
Diffusion-based Magnetic ResonanceTomography, has only reinforced the
(57:51):
actual physiological differences inour brains where trans women have been
identified to have more of a female brain,and trans men, more of a male brain.
Well, I could do a whole segmentjust on those studies as well.
It's biologically based.
It's neurobiologically based.
(58:12):
It's not a pathological condition.
It is a natural course ofevolution for that individual.
Period.
It's nature.
And one other thing that I took away fromthat is how the gender and the sex organs
(58:33):
develop at different times than the fetus.
And that things can get in the way withthat recipe that's kind of floating
around in the brain at that point.
And what's also very importantto understand is that this
concept of heteronormative,
binary gender identitiesoriginated in Western Europe.
(58:55):
You look globally, especially aroundthe Pacific Rim, there are cultures
around the world that do not conflatesex and gender the way we do.
You know, you have populations throughoutthe world, you have the hijra population
in India, and the list goes on.
(59:16):
Yep.
Those are all great things weshould have another episode on.
We're planning to do that.
I can't wait to get into those.
So thank you so much today, Dr.Sorrentino, for, for sharing things
that we don't normally hear, andfor making the science palatable.
If I may promote my own website—correction, my own podcast,
(59:38):
Yes.
which is accessible through my website.
I have guests, parents, gender diverseindividuals, other psychologists,
will come on the program.
And when I'm not having a guest,like I'm ready to publish part two
(01:00:00):
of Adverse Childhood Experiences.
It's a two-part podcast.
First part is already published.
All accessible through my website,
paradoxesofgender.com.
There's a lot of informationthere, credible information.
And resources.
I recently had a psychologist fromMelbourne, Australia on as a guest who
(01:00:26):
happens to be trans and neurodivergent.
What a fascinating podcast that was.
So if you visit the website, clickon the podcast page, you can scroll
down, there's a brief description,hot links, you click on the hot
link, it'll give you more informationand take you right to the audio.
And it's an MP3 formatso you can download them.
(01:00:48):
Oh, I can't wait.
I've listened to some, Ihaven't listened to all of them.
I'm going to look for that one thatyou were just talking about that.
Well, this Friday we'rerecording our 59th episode.
Wow.
Congratulations.
That's huge.
Thank you.
We're working our way up towardthat and we appreciate you
being part of our effort too.
So,
What really amazed me with mypodcast series is currently I
(01:01:13):
have subscribers in 82 countries.
82 countries.
It just underscores the globalhunger for credible information.
There is.
And thank you for being partof that education process.
Anything else we can do to supportyou in your efforts to teach and
(01:01:33):
Well, having me as a guestis more than I can ask for.
Well honor a privilege towork with the two of you.
Well, thank you for being here today,and I do want give another shout out
to your book Transgender Families, andwe will put that in the show notes.
And we want to thank our audiencetoday for spending this time with us on
(01:01:55):
Demystifying the Transgender Journey.
I'm Lynn Murphy, one of your hosts,Wendy Cole is your other host and
we appreciate so much Dr. Sorrentinobeing here today just to clarify things
that that get kind of lost in theweeds when people are reading social
media and listening to politicians.
So we plan to have anotherepisode, or two, or three,
(01:02:18):
we'll see, with Dr. Sorrentino.
So join in on those, be sure andLike, Subscribe, leave comments,
we'll respond back to you.
And let us know if there's something elsethat you're interested in hearing about.
And we will let you know once yousubscribe, next time we're going
have Dr. Sorrentino on and alsosome of our other fabulous guests.
So thank you for being with us today.
(01:02:40):
Stay curious and stay kind.
Thank you for joining us todayon this episode of Demystifying
the Transgender Journey.
Remember to subscribe so youdon't miss a single episode
of our fascinating interviews.
You can also find more information onour website, be transgender journey.com.
So until next time, staycurious and stay kind.
I did a program for a localLutheran church, 90 minute program,
Understanding Gender Diversityand Being Transgender.
You should have seen the expressionson their face as they came to a better
understanding of what I was sharing,and so many of them just kept saying,
I had no idea.
I had no idea.
(00:21):
Which I would reply,
"How could you?"
Information is noteasily accessible to you.
Accurate, credible, factual information.
You're being fed disinformationand misinformation,
which distracts you fromwhat's really taking place.
It's empowering when you havetheir attention and they're
(00:44):
willing to listen and learn.
Providing them with thatfoundation of knowledge, and then
steering them in the direction ofresources, whether it's my books,
or other sources of information.
So you want to dig deeper?
All the information is there thatI've used for research and more
(01:09):
because there's biologicalbasis to all of this.
What do you really know aboutpeople who were born transgender?
Have you ever met someonewho's transgender?
Well, if you're like me, you'recurious but hesitant to ask questions.
Well, welcome to
Demystifying the Transgender Journey.
In our conversations with people who wereborn transgender, their families, friends,
(01:31):
and their professionals who support them,we ask probing questions and discover
insightful and educational answers.
You can also find more information onour website thetransgenderjourney.com.
Now, let's get right into today's episode.
Welcome today to another episode ofDemystifying the Transgender Journey.
(01:52):
I'm one of your hosts, Lynn Murphy.
Author, speaker, and podcast host.
Your other host today is Wendy Cole,who is a transition mentor, and she
transitioned at 67 years old, andcoaches lots of people who are in
transition, not just with their gender.
You know, we're all changingfrom one day to the next,
and she's a great coach in that area.
(02:15):
Our goal with this program is toeducate people, to share stories,
provide unique perspectives ofdifferent people, their personal
experiences, their authentic journey.
And what we're trying to do is tochange people's attitude, give them
access to people and to topics thatthey really don't know anything about.
(02:35):
So we're educating people, and tryingto get past that disinformation
and misinformation that's floatingaround—actually seems like it's
right on top of our head some days—that's going around social media
and other areas of the world today.
We are so honored today to have areturning guest, Dr. Diana Sorrentino.
(02:57):
She shared with us in the first episodethat we did with her more a personal, very
heartfelt story of her own transition.
And today she's back as an expert,going to be talking about the science
and all her research into gender..
Dr. Diana Sorrentino, what do you call it?
(03:17):
Gender differences?
Well, gender diversity andtransgender identities.
Alright.
A good encapsulating
topic subject.
So I'm going to ask Dr. Sorrentinoto introduce herself to the
audience, and we'll get rightinto some of her conversations.
Dr. Sorrentino, thankyou for being here today.
(03:40):
Lynn.
Wendy.
It's an honor and privilege to join youonce again, and to our guests joining
us wherever you are, at whatever time,
my name is Dr. Diana Sorrentino.
I am a social psychologistand behavioral analyst.
I have doctoral degrees inpsychology, as well as sociology.
(04:04):
My research into the neurobiologyand physiology of gender diversity
and transgender identity starteda little over 40 years ago.
As I was coming to terms with developingan understanding of my own life
experiences with gender diversity and
(04:27):
at the time, gender dysphoria.
And for more than 35 years now, I havebeen working with medical and behavioral
healthcare professionals, assistingthem in their clinical practices
as well as to provide educationaltraining and programs for them.
I'm the author of three books.
Transgender Families (04:50):
Helping Parents and Families Understand Gender
Diversity and Being Transgender,
The Neurobiology and Physiologyof Incongruent Gender Identities
and Sexual Orientation.
That is more of a biology bookfor the medical and behavioral
(05:10):
healthcare practitioners, becauseit gets into the deep neurobiology,
physiological aspects originating inutero of who we are as individuals.
My third book is Adolescent GenderAffirming Medical and Behavioral
Healthcare for the professionals,as well as for the family, and
(05:33):
a transitioning individual.
Much more in-depth.
It's the equivalent of a graduatelevel textbook, coming in at a little
over 900 pages and 258,000 words.
It's a tome.
I'm a recognized subject matterexpert nationally in this
arena, in this profession.
(05:54):
So my job tonight working with Lynn andwith Wendy is to share that knowledge,
my research, my experience, because asone individual put it so eloquently,
better than I could have, my degree inpsychology focuses on the individual.
(06:15):
My degree in sociology looks at morethe global aspect and the influence.
And my lived experience, mytransition took place, I prefer to
call it my evolution, in January of1990, a little over 35 years ago.
Mm-hmm.
So I have time under my belt, I havethe research, I have the credentials.
(06:41):
Where would you like to start?
Well, you have lots of credentials.
I appreciate you, sharing thatencapsulation so that people understand
that you are definitely the expert in thisfield, from all those different aspects.
Let's talk about terminologyfirst, just to make sure people
are on the same page with us.
(07:01):
Difference between, or at least define,transgender, non-binary, gender fluid.
And maybe let's throw inintersex because that's something
that people don't understand.
Alright.
Let's start with intersex,
which the term has been replaced recentlyby Disorder of Gender Development.
(07:25):
And what an intersex conditionbasically means is an individual
may have an extra chromosome, couldbe XXY, could be XYY, and at least
a half a dozen other variations.
At birth, it may look like theindividual is a female because of the
(07:50):
presentation of what might be a vagina, orincongruent, where the scrotum and penis
is not visible at that point in time.
And to drive this point home, Iwas asked to work with a family a
number of years ago, child was born.
(08:12):
And congratulations, Mom and Dad,
you have a beautiful baby girl.
Well, all through prepubescentchildhood, this individual did
not accept or become involved withthe typical female activities.
(08:36):
Refused to wear a dress, wouldprefer to be out in the t-shirt and
shorts with the boys, and so forth.
Well, Mom and Dad just thoughttheir daughter is a tomboy.
Well, for XX genetic females, pubertykicks in between the ages of 10 and 12.
(08:56):
Now, some start earlier, precociouspuberty, others are a little delayed.
Well, they make a very long storyshort, at age 12, there were no
breast developments, and there wasno menses, no period has started.
Which is unusual for an XX fetus.
(09:16):
Colleague of mine has a10-year-old daughter who's
already had her first period.
So at first, Mom and Dad thought,
She's a late bloomer.
Well, by age 14, nothing had changed.
So of course now Mom's concerned,takes the daughter to the
gynecologist for an examination, andit appears that she has a vagina.
(09:39):
But it turns out she does not.
It's impartial.
So blood work is ordered,echocardiogram is ordered.
X-rays, chromosome test, the full battery.
And what they learn is theirdaughter is XY, not XX.
(10:02):
The gonads are there, but they neverdescended to become testes, and they
never moved up to become ovaries.
Now what's an interesting fact thatmost people do not realize, is that
during fetal development, the gonadsin the XX fetus will become ovaries.
(10:24):
The same gonads in the XY fetus willbecome testes, and if they do not
develop the way they're supposed to,you end up with an intersex condition
or Disorder of Sexual Development.
(10:44):
It's very common.
It's like one in a thousandbirths fall into this category.
So this is something that peoplearen't necessarily aware of right away.
No, they're not.
Now, sometimes the genitals are morepronounced as far as disfiguration,
where it may look like it's justan enlarged clitoris when it
(11:04):
could be a penis, and so forth.
There are so many different variations.
Fascinating from the biology standpoint.
Yeah.
You're also telling us thatthere aren't just two sexes,
but we'll get into that later.
Well, you have biological sex,and you have brain sex, and
all of this develops in utero.
(11:28):
Now you mentioned thegender-fluid individual.
I'm working with a family right now.
They have an 11-year-oldassigned male at birth who,
I'm not a boy, but I'm not a girl either,
you know?
Mm-hmm.
And the individual is in this middlezone, I believe, trying to discern
(11:51):
where they're going with their future.
But at age 11, that's okay.
How can they figure what they'regoing to do at 15, 16, 18, or 20.
When you're 11 years old.
Transgender is very simply, I was assignedmale at birth, but from a psychological
perspective and a perception of who Iwas as an individual, I wasn't a boy,
(12:15):
but it took me many years to come tothe realization that I was female.
Or those who are assigned female at birth,who at some point come to the realization
that they're not female, they're male.
Now, for some individuals, they can veryclearly delineate during prepubescent
(12:36):
childhood, usually no later than age five,that they are a gender which is different
from their sex assignment at birth.
Gender is more than just genitals.
Mm-hmm.
Others like myself, because in 1966when all this hit me like a tsunami,
(13:01):
there were no resources available.
So it took a number of years beforeI finally found information, support
groups, the right professionalsto work with, to come to a full
understanding of who I was as a woman.
(13:22):
And not based on my sexassignment at birth.
Let's talk about the biology of it.
Because you have so muchresearch, science behind this.
What happens in utero thatdetermines one thing or another?
At conception, and duringearly development, all embryos
(13:43):
are female, whether XX or XY.
Typically, within the first six toeight weeks of fetal development with
an ultrasound, you'll be able to discernwhether it's possibly a boy or a girl.
(14:04):
At that point, the brain is stillin the default female state.
If it's an XY fetus, male,
in the latter part of the thirdtrimester, the brain will need
to become masculinized to draw itaway from the default female state.
(14:31):
Common logic would say, oh,Testosterone masculinize the brain.
It does, but indirectly.
Synthesized estrogen, which is producedfrom the testosterone by the aromatase
enzyme, which is then processedthrough the estrogen receptor pathway,
(14:57):
will masculinize the brain.
So it's actually syntheticestrogen created from testosterone,
by the aromatase enzyme, thatwill masculinize the brain.
Now, researchers have clearly identified21 different variants in 19 genes.
(15:18):
That's basically where the wholeconcept of gender variant, and
gender variant behavior begins.
Exactly.
So if all works well, then the latterpart of the third trimester, the XY
fetus's brain will become masculinized.
However, if those 21 variants in the 19genes in the brain's pathways interfere
(15:46):
with the masculinization of the brain,the child will be born phenotypical male
with genitals, XY, but the brain will havebeen remained in the default female state.
That's so fascinating thatevery fetus starts out female.
(16:09):
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
And then there's a recipe, and if therecipe's not right, if this soup that
you're talking about, you're not right...?
You're on the mark.
Now in the XX fetus, and the latterpart of the third trimester, the brain
must remain in the default female state.
(16:33):
Now, not as much testosterone as inthe XY fetus, but there are still
sufficient testosterone that'llbe modified through the aromatase
enzyme into synthesized estrogen.
With an attempt to masculinizethe brain of the XX fetus.
(16:55):
DNA methylation will block thatfrom occurring, allowing the brain
to remain in the female state,
so at birth you have a phenotypicalfemale with a female brain.
It's an oversimplification becauseit's much more complex than
what I've just shared with you.
(17:17):
I can just imagine.
Okay.
The older term is mutations where todaywe call them variants to these genes.
An endocrinologist I washaving a conversation with a
few years ago commented that,
Birth is truly a miracle of nature.
(17:39):
And it's like the orchestraunder the guide of a conductor.
Every note has to be hit, precise time,everyone performing the right pitch,
the right tone, at the right speed.
And if there's a deviation, the conductorwill know, maybe some people in the
(18:03):
audience will recognize it, but itsounds good to the casual listener.
Everything has to occurperfectly at every stage along
in fetal development.
But once a child is
born XY, with a female brain, or XX, witha male brain, they will have it for life.
(18:30):
And there is nothing thatcan be done to change that.
Mm-hmm.
And an example I always useis the case of David Reimer.
There's a great book, it's a truestory, the author is John Colapinto.
As Nature Made Him is the title.
(18:51):
1966, Winnipeg, Canada.
Twin Boys were born and during thecircumcision of one of the boys,
the penis was irrevocably damaged.
The parents learned about the new genderclinic at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore.
They brought the child there, andpsychologist, the sexologist, John Money,
(19:16):
and the professionals there convincedthe parents that nurturing was more
powerful than nature, and that theycould raise this child as a girl and
the child would never know any better.
Mm-hmm.
So at about age two, minor surgerywas performed to make it look like the
child had a vagina, child was placedon hormones, and nurtured, as a girl.
(19:42):
It did not work.
Right.
There was an attempted suicide,child was taken to a psychologist.
Neither the child, or thepsychologist was told the history.
And once the individual learned,rejected the female identity that
was assigned to them by the parents.
(20:03):
Took the name David, in comparison toDavid and Goliath, went back to being
male, where he should have been fromday one, married, adopted children,
and has moved on with his life.
It's a very powerful read andit underscores that once the
brain is locked into a genderidentity, it's not going to change.
(20:29):
It's been tried, it does not work.
So is there a gay gene or atransgender gene that as you're
saying, can't be changed, right?
Is there something biological thatdetermines their sexual preference?
In my second book, the Neurobiologyand Physiology of Incongruent Gender
(20:52):
Identities and Sexual Orientations,I delve into that very, very deeply.
There's no singular gay gene.
There's no singular transgender,or gender diversity gene.
But multiple factors will comeinto play to create the variants.
(21:17):
What takes place in the mind of adeveloping fetus and young child
who becomes transgender is not allthat different from the individual
who will be gay or lesbian.
Can you elaborate on that just a bit?
Prepubescent children prior to ageseven, are known for gender fluid
(21:42):
behavior, cross-gender role play,and fluidity in their identity.
That's a normal part ofearly childhood development.
If you have that prepubescentchild, assigned male at birth,
has the male brain, by ageseven, that behavior dissipates.
(22:07):
They start spending more time withtheir peers, and their behavior
changes to more masculine.
The same thing with the XX fetus.
Seven or eight, the behavior willchange to that of the stereotypical,
phenotypical female and they moveon preparing to enter puberty.
(22:30):
These are the individuals who willactually look forward to puberty and the
secondary sex characteristics and otherdevelopments that'll take place at that
point in time during their evolution.
Then you have others who duringthat prepubescent period of
fluidity will begin to say,
(22:52):
I'm not a boy, I'm a girl.
and,
I'm not a girl, I'm a boy.
This does not disappearat age seven, eight.
If anything, it may become all themore entrenched, and if they're not
supported by their parents and family,and are being forced to remain in the
(23:13):
mold that's been assigned to them,
the dysphoria, the stress andthe emotional depressions will
kick in the closer they become
to their beginning of puberty.
This is why puberty blockers areso effective and so important.
Then you have the other group.
(23:34):
Prepubescent children that showsimilar fluidity and behavior, who did
not say they're a different gender,
but will move on and maintainthat fluidity in behavior.
And they're the ones who becomeidentified as gay or lesbian.
(23:55):
Okay.
So does that mean that gay and lesbianpeople are also gender expansive?
I wouldn't say that, and I did notaddress it as such in my book, but their
orientation, to who they wish to be withintimately, life partner, whatever, is
(24:22):
in their plan of action, you might say.
That's where they're going to go.
And this contributes to it.
That's something that'snot changeable either.
No.
Right.
Yeah.
So in the prepubescent childhood,when a child is experimenting,
(24:44):
whether they're content with it,or whether they're thinking, they
know that they're a differentgender, is a medical intervention
at any point there called for?
There's no medical interventionwhatsoever for prepubescent children.
There's no surgical interventionfor prepubescent children.
(25:07):
Period.
End of discussion.
Regardless of what we're readingand hearing at different points.
Right.
What we're reading and hearing is,
My God, you're butchering children.
Well, let's pause for a moment.
An 8-year-old and a 16-year-oldare children, right?
An 8-year-old and a16-year-old are minors.
(25:29):
That's why I always clearly differentiateprepubescent children from adolescents.
A prepubescent child who is insistent,consistent, and persistent in
their belief that they are a genderwhich is incongruent with their sex
assignment at birth, may be allowedto socially transition, go full-time
(25:56):
in their alternative gender, but nomedical, no hormones, no surgical.
This makes it easier for them and thefamily as they migrate through school,
and it's also a period where theycould try on to see how the shoe fits.
(26:16):
Hmm.
And if it's not working for them,it's a very easy reverse process.
Hormones—
cross-sex gender affirming hormones—
would never be introducedbefore the age of 16.
The only thing that's introduced earlierwould be gonadotropin-releasing hormone
(26:39):
agonist, which is your puberty blocker,
to put a pause— and I emphasize pause—on the development of the secondary sex
characteristics that occur during puberty.
For the female, especiallyimportant to prevent breast
development, and to delay menses.
(27:02):
For the XY fetus, deepening of thevoice, the development of the Adam's
apple, facial hair, and the list goes on.
This also provides a period oftime for the adolescent to assume
the other gender role full time.
(27:25):
It's reversible.
Mm-hmm.
If it turns out it's not appropriatefor cross-sex gender affirming
hormones, puberty blockers arediscontinued, puberty kicks in
immediately, and all the developmentwill take place, just a little delayed.
Because puberty is not over at 18.
(27:47):
It can continue much later.
Isn't that into the mid twenties?
Yes.
Now, before puberty blockers wouldeven be administered, a complete
physical examination, physical health,metabolic profiles, comprehensive blood
profile, bone mineralization studieswould be done to develop a baseline.
(28:15):
A psychologist working with theparents and the individual would
clear the individual to commencewith the puberty blockers,
because it's a controlled process.
This isn't something you dialup on Amazon and decide you're
gonna take puberty blockers..
(28:36):
No.
It sounds very complex.
Pediatrician.
You have the endocrinologist,you have the psychologist,
all play an interdisciplinaryrole for the delivery of care.
And Wendy, the work that you're doing,and a great deal of work that I'm
doing with individuals and families,
this is a tour guide and mentor to helpguide them along their path of evolution.
(29:04):
It'll help them understand what to expect,
what it's going to requireof them moving forward.
After the puberty blockers aredetermined to be appropriate and
successful, cross-sex, gender affirminghormones can be started late 15, 16.
(29:25):
Surgery of any type, whethervaginoplasty, breast removal, breast
enhancement, and so forth, wouldnot take place until after age 18.
Those are the establishedprofessional protocols.
And am I correct in what I've heardthat puberty blockers are used for
(29:47):
cisgender children too at times?
That this is not exclusivelysomething that's being used on
or by people who are transgender?
Puberty blockers have been used sincethe '60s to treat precocious puberty
in female children, XX children.
(30:08):
This is where they'll move into pubertyat age seven, eight, or nine, when
especially they're not psychologicallyor mentally ready for those developments.
I had a guest on a couple years ago,and she had a precocious puberty.
So they've been around.
(30:30):
You know, the problem we runinto is there's too many myths,
too much hyperbole, too manypathological assumptions, and of
course, the geopolitical arrogance.
All based on misinformation,disinformation, and I'll
say bluntly, stupidity.
(30:50):
And lies.
Yeah.
Well, those are thepathological assumptions.
Yeah.
Thank you for making surethat we understand that.
So as the child moves into puberty, evenchildren who do not have gender dysphoria,
or children who are outside the binary,
(31:13):
puberty isn't always themost fun for children anyway.
So what happens with a child who has thegender dysphoria, or is questioning, or
is gender fluid, what happens to themduring puberty, depending on external
influences as well as internal influence?
(31:33):
If the individual entering puberty,assigned male at birth, or female at
birth, is supported by their parentsand family, have been properly assessed
and evaluated and cleared by theinterdisciplinary team of professionals,
puberty blockers are a pause button.
(31:56):
It helps remove the anxiety for theindividual who's on the path of being
transgender, that they're not goinghave to deal with the secondary sex
characteristic developments thatwould normally take place at puberty.
And as I mentioned earlier, for theXX, or XY individual who's not on the
(32:22):
path to being transgender, they'relooking forward to those developments.
I've heard conversations about girls12, 13, 14, talking about their periods.
And the 10, 11 year olds, you know, say,
When am I getting my period?
You know, for them it's somethingthey're looking forward to.
(32:42):
The boys, the XY, the deepening ofthe voice, the development of facial
hair, redistribution of fat, being alittle leaner, a little more muscular,
it's all welcome.
For the individual who is going to betransgender, or is transgender, those
developments are unwarranted, and ifthey're not supported by their parents
(33:05):
and family, it creates tremendousdysphoria, emotional distress, and in
many cases, clinical levels of depression.
Mm-hmm.
So there are other thingsgoing on in adolescence too.
You know, a sense of who theyare, a sense of self, a sense of
(33:26):
self-worth and self-acceptance.
How does this come to play with someonewho is transgender, gender dysphoric?
Again, if they are under the properguidance and have family support,
adolescents, they deal at a morepositive rate than their cisgender peers.
(33:50):
Hmm.
Okay.
Better than their cisgender peers.
Interesting.
So when parents are supportive and,affirming of their true identity that
they've expressed, they just don'thave the psychological distress from
it, is what I think you're saying.
Okay.
There's a family I worked with years ago.
(34:14):
I was entered into the equationwhen the individual was 12 years
old, assigned male at birth.
Mm-hmm.
And all through prepubescence,
I'm not a boy, I'm a girl.
I was brought in to work withthe parents to give them a better
understanding of the neurobiology, thephysiology, and all that heavy duty
stuff, and to coach and work with them.
(34:38):
This individual was clearedfor puberty blockers at age
12, cleared for hormones at 15.
Had a vaginoplasty at 16, which is early.
Yeah.
How did that happen?
I thought there was reallyhard, fast rules about that
(34:58):
within the medical community.
There's fast rules.
There's hard rules, butthey're flexible rules.
Okay.
This individual was progressingso phenomenally well, you know,
it was breaking all the rules.
Off to college.
She's now a junior, honorroll, straight A student.
(35:23):
Mm-hmm.
Drop dead gorgeous.
Has a boyfriend, is sexually active.
And it was funny, having aconversation with Mom one day.
She goes,
It works!
It works!
I was surprised that the surgeon and theteam approved 16 for the vaginoplasty,
(35:48):
but this individual was more maturethan the age chronologically, and
there was not a bump in the road.
This is where the interdisciplinaryteam is so important.
Mm-hmm.
Pediatrician, the endocrinologist,the psychologist, and the
(36:14):
stakeholder from the community.
Individuals like yourself,Wendy, and myself.
So that people understand what'srequired, what's expected, and to
provide them with the support thatthey need as their life evolves.
I love hearing thepositive stories like that.
(36:37):
Let's take a minute to lookat the other side of that.
What happens, what kind of statistics dowe hear when there isn't the supportive
family or the supportive medical team?
The suicidal ideation rate foradolescents, transgender adolescents,
whether assigned male or female at birth,who are not supported by their family and
(37:00):
are forced into the mold based on theirsex assignment at birth, the suicidal
ideation rate has hit as high as 70%.
Mm-hmm.
Suicidal attempts, 40%.
Death by suicide, in the 20% range.
Now during adolescence, suicidalideation for their cisgender peers
(37:24):
is relatively high as well, butnot as high as the transgender
individual who is not supported.
But the adolescent who is supported,their suicidal ideation rate is
lower than their cisgender peers.
Mm-hmm.
That's a great statisticfor people to understand.
(37:44):
And that they are getting that kindof care and the difference that it
makes in a family, think about havingchildren, wanting your child to be happy.
How can people turn away from this?
Well, you'd be amazed.
Yeah, I know.
I've heard.
What I've found in my work is when aparent or parents plural, or the family
(38:08):
at large, are not supportive, they aremore concerned in regard to the impact the
evolution is going to have on their lives.
Mm-hmm.
Their friends.
Their social networks.
Their profession.
Their work.
They're more concerned about themselves.
(38:30):
And in many cases would rather carve outthe tumor, that they perceive it to be,
which is why many of these individualsare expelled from the household.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Because they don't want to deal with it.
Homelessness among trans teens has becomevery high in a lot of major cities.
(38:52):
Most definitely.
There's one family I'm workingwith right now, you know, the
mother is fully supportive of the11-year-old assigned male at birth.
I'm not a boy, but I'm not a girl either.
Dad, I met with him once with the mom.
(39:14):
Dad refuses, through co-parenting,
they're divorced, to lettheir child meet with me.
He refuses to meet with me again.
He won't deal with it.
That's so sad.
And sad for the wholefamily, sad for the child.
(39:36):
Yeah.
So when you're working with peopleand they come in, they're confused,
this is going on with theirchild, and you start talking to
them about the science of it all.
Does that usually get them moreaccepting and give them a path they're
working through this in a positive way?
Well, what it does is it allowsthem to develop a foundation
(39:57):
mm-hmm.
to start developing an understanding.
A few years ago, I conducted aprogram for the local chapter of SHRM,
Society for Human Resource Management,
and at the end of the program,gentleman approached me very somber,
(40:18):
very distraught, almost in tears.
I'm living this.
I'm living this.
I love my child, but Idon't understand this.
I don't know what to do.
So I sat him down for aconversation, which ended up being
an hour and a half, and I said,
(40:41):
"Please share with me."
I don't understand this.
Now, at that point, he knew I wasan affirmed woman, which is probably
why he wanted to speak with me.
So I asked him.
"Your child- sex assigned at birth?"
Male.
Okay.
"Child's transitioning to female?"
(41:02):
Correct.
"How old is your child?"
17.
Well, I paused because inmy mind, that's not a child.
That's an adolescent.
But I wanted him to fully appreciatethat I was not just listening, but I
was hearing, and showing empathy to him.
(41:22):
So I kept using child.
I had covered most of the biologyand the physiology during my program,
but I covered it in greater detail.
And he goes,
I, I asked my child to talk to meand to share with me what's going
on, and they don't say anything.
(41:42):
Which I replied,
Your child is still sortingthings out for themselves.
And it's very difficult to share withyou what they're experiencing until
such time as they have a better graspon what it is they're experiencing.
(42:03):
Review it again, theneurobiology, physiology.
And then I ask them,
"What is your fear?What are you afraid of?"
Mm-hmm.
My child's future.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
I said, "Look at me."
I said, "There are the two top surgeonsin the country performing affirmation
(42:28):
surgeries are both affirmed women."
I said, "We are out thereas professionals, very
successful in our lives."
"Your child will have a successfullife. Your child needs your
unconditional love and support."
Well, what do I do about family?
(42:50):
Well, they're going to need to adapt.
But if you develop a better understandingof why this has taken place, how this has
taken place, and that begins in utero,
your knowledge and understanding,and most importantly, acceptance,
(43:13):
will make it easier for familyto understand and accept.
And that's unconditional acceptance.
Unconditional.
There's a family I worked with,
transgender son.
(43:35):
The grandmother refusedto accept transition.
Kept buying
the grandchild, female things.
Refused to use the pronouns, refusedto use the name, constantly dead named.
(43:56):
And then one day at the hairdresser, howthe conversation initiated wasn't shared,
but it turns out that thewoman who did her hair has a
transgender niece, female to male.
All of a sudden, the two of them hadsomething common ground to talk about.
(44:18):
It took two years, but thegrandmother made a 180°, embraced
her grandson and moved on.
The challenge for parents is, it
comes as a shock, number one.
(44:40):
Number two, it's like a ghost in the room.
It's not something theycan grasp and understand.
My work with parents is to helpestablish that foundational
knowledge, neurobiology, physiology,that there is a basis for this.
(45:02):
A legitimate basis for the developmentof an incongruent gender identity.
And that it's not going tochange and it's not going to hurt
the individual, provided thefamily provides that unconditional
love, support, and allyship.
(45:25):
And they can help educate othermembers, which is so important.
Which is what you werejust saying to this father.
Earlier this year, I did a programfor a local Lutheran church, 90
minute program, Understanding GenderDiversity and Being Transgender.
There were 60 people in attendance.
(45:46):
You should have seen the expressionson their face as they came to a better
understanding of what I was sharing.
And so many of them just kept saying,
I had no idea.
I had no idea.
Which I would reply,
"How could you? Information isnot easily accessible to you."
Accurate, credible, factual information.
(46:08):
You've got the geopolitical arrogance,you have the hyperbole, you have
the pathological assumptions.
You're being fed disinformation andmisinformation, which distracts you
from what's really taking place.
It's empowering when you havetheir attention and they're
(46:32):
willing to listen and learn.
Providing them with that foundation ofknowledge and then steering them in the
direction of resources, whether it's mybooks, or other sources of information.
Which is why in my books, especiallythe second and third editions,
(46:52):
I have extensive glossaries.
Citations.
So you want to dig deeper?
All the information is there thatI've used for research, and more.
Because there is biologicalbasis to all of this.
(47:13):
There's so much social media out therethat it seems like some people would just
find it easier to absorb, as you callit, stupid stuff, which I agree with you,
there's a lot of stupid stuff out there.
But are people just absorbing that andassuming, without applying any critical
thinking to it, that that's the facts.
(47:34):
Well,
when they do that, all they're saying is
They don't want to be bothered.
Yeah.
They do not want to be bothered.
Maybe it has to be personal for them tofeel like they have an investment in time
and in a relationship to do something.
(47:55):
Here's another great example.
My father had a very close friend,a New Jersey State Trooper.
This guy was so over the tophomophobic, it was unbelievable.
To the point of being nasty.
He had two daughters.
(48:17):
And then one day the youngerdaughter informed Mom and Dad
that she's a lesbian.
You want to talk about sticker shock?
I'm sure.
Alright.
So all that hateful rhetoric weused to listen to for years..
Now, he had to deal with his own daughter.
(48:39):
It came home to him.
Yeah.
Now it was personal.
Yeah.
One of the things that we hear about, andthere've been, been phony studies in my
opinion about people who detransition.
Have you had experience or can you quoteany kind of statistics on, on that issue?
(48:59):
Dutch longitudinal studies have proven,as they've followed individuals who've
transitioned for over 30 years, thatthe detransition rate is less than 1%.
It's infinitesimal.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You have individuals whotransition because they think
(49:25):
it's going to make their lifeeasier, or solve their problems.
And they have not worked with theproper interdisciplinary team to make
certain that they are an appropriatecandidate for gender affirmation.
Now, who gets lumped into thatcategory that we read about in the
(49:46):
media, are individuals who willdetransition, which not really
a detransition, by discontinuinghormones so they can have a child.
Oh, okay.
Or detransition because they havenot been able to have their travel
documents, passports, et cetera, updatedto reflect their affirmed gender, so
(50:11):
it'd be easier for them to travel.
That's not a detransition,that's a pause button.
Mm-hmm.
But globally, the detransitionrate is less than 1%.
Now there's a new concept flowingaround that's already been debunked.
Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria,ROGD, it's a social antagonism.
(50:42):
There's no such thing.
Those individuals who quote unquotefell into that category, which
is not a legitimate diagnosis,are usually teenagers who
feel out of place in their family.
It could be assigned female at birth,brothers who were receiving the attention.
(51:07):
There are many dynamics in play, butit really boils down to a psychological
disorder for the individual, as far aswho they are and their self-worth, and
has nothing to do with gender identity.
Because when I'm presentedwith an individual like that,
(51:27):
I start inquiring from theparents as well as the individual.
Well, tell me about yourprepubescent childhood.
What did you do?
What didn't you do?
How did you play?
And if there's no history of gender-fluidbehavior, or insistency, persistency,
(51:48):
or consistency their gender is differentfrom their sex assigned at birth.
You don't just wake upone morning and say,
I'm not a boy, I'm a girl.
I'm not a girl, I'm a boy.
It doesn't work that way.
Mm-hmm.
If that does develop, thereare bigger issues at play
psychologically for the individual.
(52:09):
Because that person would never becleared for any type of affirmation
intervention, medical or otherwise,because they do not have a
historical foundation leading to it.
When I attended my first support groupand I spoke to those in attendance, I was
(52:32):
blown away, there were 40 people there.
The stories were all the same, likethey were telling me about my own life.
Mm-hmm.
And when I work with individuals and theyshare their history, it's consistent.
You cannot make it up.
Even though they find informationon the internet, it's not the same.
(52:55):
Mm-hmm.
So there's something else goingon with people in that situation.
I always say that no little boy isgoing to just by choice one day say,
Oh, I'm a girl.
And insist on that.
Not with the socialization wego through from birth because
of that sex assignment at birth.
(53:15):
We know that it's wrong by thetime we begin to approach puberty.
And I knew it was wrongfor me before age five.
Yeah.
And that's not uncommon.
I know it's not.
I've found that all out.
And I was gaslit by my parents by thepsychiatrist they took me to in the 1950s.
(53:37):
Yeah.
Oh, you're the only onethat thinks like this.
Yeah.
Well then what are you gonnado about Christine Jorgensen?
Exactly, and I am convinced also thatall the stress and anxiety that I
felt before telling my parents at age10, and then especially after I was
(54:03):
literally forced into the closet tohide my secret by my parents, threatened
to be committed to a psych facility,
I'm convinced that all of that that Iexperienced through my teenage years,
into my early twenties, when I triedto transition and then after a disaster
(54:24):
and I gave up and moved forward witha heteronormative life, the stress of
hiding this, the stress of having grownup with it, the stress and the fear, and
the trauma from all of the stuff thatI faced from 10 into my early twenties,
that totally changedthe course of my life.
(54:48):
Absolutely.
All my energy was going into that.
Yeah.
Oh, for all of us.
There's a marvelous book to read.
It's called Wondrous Transformations.
Basically the medical lifehistory of Harry Benjamin.
Oh, wow.
And what a great read, because he becamethe father of transgender medicine.
(55:12):
Mm-hmm.
And the World Professional Associationfor Transgender Health, which
I'm a member of was originallythe Harry Benjamin International
Gender Dysphoria Organization.
Mm-hmm.
And once, Christine Jorgensen andothers, we came out of the woodwork,
(55:36):
we were forced into hiding, as you put it,
because society would not accept us.
Mm-hmm.
My case was a little bitdifferent, everybody's case
is a little bit different.
It's amazing, isn't it?
When I made the decision that I wasready for my life's evolution, I like to
(55:59):
refer to, as you know, I stepped acrossthe line, I adopted the female binary.
I got on with my life and Iturned around and looked and
I go, What was the big deal?
Like, Why did I wait so long?
I know.
We've had an outstanding conversationabout the biology of this, and
Dr. Sorrentino, I know that we'regonna have other conversations
(56:21):
about other things because youare such an expert on the topic.
You've got so much to share with us.
But let's wind up today, for this episode,as far as the biology and the through
adolescence that we've talked about.
So would you summarize just someof the things that you have said.
I mean some of my takeaways fromthis, like one is, that it's not
(56:43):
an illness, that can be cured.
Are there some other takeaways from thisthat we can end this episode live today?
Well, it's not a pathology.
It's not a psychologicalor mental illness.
It is biological.
We lost that diagnosticdiagnosis code in 2012, correct?
(57:03):
Uh, pretty much so.
Okay.
Okay.
It used to be Gender Identity Dysphoria,then it became Gender Dysphoria because
a lot of pressure was put on the AmericanPsychiatric Association to sort of
get with the program because mm-hmm.
It took them years to disqualify beinggay or lesbian as a psychological issue.
(57:30):
So it takes time.
The medical knowledge that I sharedis really as of the 21st century.
The imaging studies, whether it'sFunctional Magnetic Resonance Imaging,
Diffusion-based Magnetic ResonanceTomography, has only reinforced the
(57:51):
actual physiological differences inour brains where trans women have been
identified to have more of a female brain,and trans men, more of a male brain.
Well, I could do a whole segmentjust on those studies as well.
It's biologically based.
It's neurobiologically based.
(58:12):
It's not a pathological condition.
It is a natural course ofevolution for that individual.
Period.
It's nature.
And one other thing that I took away fromthat is how the gender and the sex organs
(58:33):
develop at different times than the fetus.
And that things can get in the way withthat recipe that's kind of floating
around in the brain at that point.
And what's also very importantto understand is that this
concept of heteronormative,
binary gender identitiesoriginated in Western Europe.
(58:55):
You look globally, especially aroundthe Pacific Rim, there are cultures
around the world that do not conflatesex and gender the way we do.
You know, you have populations throughoutthe world, you have the hijra population
in India, and the list goes on.
(59:16):
Yep.
Those are all great things weshould have another episode on.
We're planning to do that.
I can't wait to get into those.
So thank you so much today, Dr.Sorrentino, for, for sharing things
that we don't normally hear, andfor making the science palatable.
If I may promote my own website—correction, my own podcast,
(59:38):
Yes.
which is accessible through my website.
I have guests, parents, gender diverseindividuals, other psychologists,
will come on the program.
And when I'm not having a guest,like I'm ready to publish part two
(01:00:00):
of Adverse Childhood Experiences.
It's a two-part podcast.
First part is already published.
All accessible through my website,
paradoxesofgender.com.
There's a lot of informationthere, credible information.
And resources.
I recently had a psychologist fromMelbourne, Australia on as a guest who
(01:00:26):
happens to be trans and neurodivergent.
What a fascinating podcast that was.
So if you visit the website, clickon the podcast page, you can scroll
down, there's a brief description,hot links, you click on the hot
link, it'll give you more informationand take you right to the audio.
And it's an MP3 formatso you can download them.
(01:00:48):
Oh, I can't wait.
I've listened to some, Ihaven't listened to all of them.
I'm going to look for that one thatyou were just talking about that.
Well, this Friday we'rerecording our 59th episode.
Wow.
Congratulations.
That's huge.
Thank you.
We're working our way up towardthat and we appreciate you
being part of our effort too.
So,
What really amazed me with mypodcast series is currently I
(01:01:13):
have subscribers in 82 countries.
82 countries.
It just underscores the globalhunger for credible information.
There is.
And thank you for being partof that education process.
Anything else we can do to supportyou in your efforts to teach and
(01:01:33):
Well, having me as a guestis more than I can ask for.
Well honor a privilege towork with the two of you.
Well, thank you for being here today,and I do want give another shout out
to your book Transgender Families, andwe will put that in the show notes.
And we want to thank our audiencetoday for spending this time with us on
(01:01:55):
Demystifying the Transgender Journey.
I'm Lynn Murphy, one of your hosts,Wendy Cole is your other host and
we appreciate so much Dr. Sorrentinobeing here today just to clarify things
that that get kind of lost in theweeds when people are reading social
media and listening to politicians.
So we plan to have anotherepisode, or two, or three,
(01:02:18):
we'll see, with Dr. Sorrentino.
So join in on those, be sure andLike, Subscribe, leave comments,
we'll respond back to you.
And let us know if there's something elsethat you're interested in hearing about.
And we will let you know once yousubscribe, next time we're going
have Dr. Sorrentino on and alsosome of our other fabulous guests.
So thank you for being with us today.
(01:02:40):
Stay curious and stay kind.
Thank you for joining us todayon this episode of Demystifying
the Transgender Journey.
Remember to subscribe so youdon't miss a single episode
of our fascinating interviews.
You can also find more information onour website, be transgender journey.com.
So until next time, staycurious and stay kind.
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