March 28, 2025 • 59 mins
In this episode of "Demystifying the Transgender Journey," host Lynn Murphy discusses the complexities of gender identity and the experiences of transgender individuals with 77-year-old Wendy Cole, who transitioned at the age of 67. The episode explores terminology such as transgender, gender dysphoria, non-binary, and intersex, highlighting the distinction between sex and gender. Wendy shares personal insights into her journey and emphasizes the importance of educating people to counteract misinformation. This episode serves as an eye-opening conversation aimed at educating listeners about the nuances of the transgender community. Listeners are encouraged to visit thetransgenderjourney.com for more information and to share the podcast to foster understanding.
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Lynn (00:00):
Probably silly question about transvestites.
(00:03):
You see women who are dressedlike men, very masculine.
Do we call them transvestites?
Wendy (00:08):
Actually, no.
There's a double standard for women.
Society as a whole doesn'tthink twice about that.
Whereas if you put a guy in a dress,that's a whole different story.
You've just blown the patriarchy all away.
Lynn (00:23):
I think that's what it is, right?
Mm-hmm.
It's okay in our societyto wanna be like a man.
Mm-hmm.
Because they're the ones in charge, right?
Mm-hmm.
So that's okay, but don't have anymen trying to dress like women.
Okay.
Exactly.
That kind of makes sense in this society.
What do you really know aboutpeople who were born transgender?
(00:45):
Have you ever met someonewho's transgender?
Well, if you're like me, you'recurious, but hesitant to ask questions.
Well, welcome to demystifying theTransgender Journey in our conversations
with people who were born transgender,their families, friends, and the
professionals who support them, weask probing questions and discover
insightful and educational answers.
You can also find more information onour website, the transgender journey.com.
(01:11):
Now, let's get right into today's episode.
Welcome to another episode ofDemystifying the Transgender Journey.
I'm Lynn Murphy, your host.
I'm the founder of Women of Pushthe Limits and the author of the
Amazon bestselling book, 50 LifeLessons From Inspiring Women.
Today we're continuing our conversationwith the amazing, inspiring, incredible
(01:32):
Wendy Cole, who is now 75 years old.
She transitioned when she was 67, eventhough she knew from the time she was
three years old that she was not a boy.
She was definitely a girl.
She lived her life until she was67 in that boy's body, and now
she's living authentically as thewoman that she always knew she was.
If you've listened to her previousepisodes, you know what an
(01:54):
amazing individual she is and howauthentically she shares her story.
She and I are out there to educatepeople about the misinformation and
disinformation about being transgender,and I'm so delighted to be having
these conversations with Wendy.
If you haven't seen our previous episodes,be sure to look for 'em either on YouTube
(02:15):
or on your favorite podcast channel.
And today we're going to demystifythe terminology around the
topic of gender and transgender.
So Wendy, thank you for doing this.
Welcome back to Demystifyingthe Transgender Journey.
Wendy (02:29):
Hi, Lynn.
I'm so glad to be doing this withyou and I'm, and grateful for it.
Thank you.
Lynn (02:35):
Well, I'm so grateful that you're spending all this
time that we're digging deep.
Into your story as well as into justkind of what's going on so we can
educate people who are listening tothe podcast who maybe don't know what's
going on with the transgender world.
Right.
And you know, you, you shared so muchabout your experience that's just
(02:58):
opened my eyes and help me understandmore about what, what that's all about.
And thank you for doing that.
And I know we've gotmore conversations to go.
Oh yeah.
We've got, let's start out todaytalking about terminology people
may not be familiar with, you know?
Sure.
Wendy (03:20):
A, a lot of times people don't ask questions or don't speak
comfortably with people like myselfbecause they don't know what to say.
They don't know the words to use.
So terminology is an important subject.
Lynn (03:38):
So, where would you like to start?
Should we talk about justthe term transgender?
Let's start with that.
Sure.
Wendy (03:45):
A transgender person is someone who is born there.
Some reason there, there's a part of thebrain where it develops in in females to
be more predominant, more well developed.
Whereas, uh, in males, it, thatarea of the brain doesn't develop
(04:05):
that much, or it's kind of dormant.
So that's kind of a physical difference.
And in the second trimesterof birth, that's where the
sexual differentiation begins.
It's where the body begins toeither become male or female.
As far as the genital area goes,the formation of a uterus, ovaries,
(04:29):
testicles, penis, all of thatstarts in the second trimester.
Somewhere along the line, in thatsecond trimester, the brain also
gets signals as to what's going on.
In the case of myself and mostother people born transgender,
(04:52):
somehow or another, the brain gotthe signal, you're a girl with this.
And the body went and became a boy.
And the thing about it is, is ithappens more often than you would
imagine, and it's happened for hundredsand hundreds and hundreds of years.
Lynn (05:10):
Who, so we're not just talking about an XRY chromosome then
Wendy (05:13):
No.
Lynn (05:15):
There's more than that.
There's more than that.
Wendy (05:18):
Alright.
It's basically how the brain gets wired.
Lynn (05:22):
Mm-hmm.
Wendy (05:23):
And also, as the body is developing before you're born, the
whole physical aspect of it happens.
But once you're born, that's whenthe doctor says, oh, it's a boy.
Oh, it's a girl.
Well.
You don't really know that atthat point they're just looking
Lynn (05:45):
at the genitals.
Right.
Just physical anatomy period.
And then they're, they're claimingwith, you know, instant look
at, at the body that this is,
Wendy (05:56):
boy, this is a girl.
Exactly.
Most people also associatethe word sex with boy or girl.
Mm-hmm.
The word gender doesn't come into play for most people.
So what's the differencebetween sex and gender?
Sex is your physical anatomy.
Sex is also triggers into sexualorientation as to who you are attracted
(06:22):
to, but gender is how you identify.
Do you identify?
Do you feel inside you?
What your whole alignment of yourbeing, is that male or female?
For most people, it's not an issue fromthe day they're born all the way through.
(06:47):
They know they're a guy, they know they'rea girl, and that's all there is to it.
They never question it, andthey're perfectly in alignment with
their whole being is in alignment
Lynn (07:01):
when you're that young.
Mm-hmm.
How do you know what a boy is supposed to?
Feel like, think like do like or whata girl's supposed to feel like, think,
Wendy (07:12):
like do like that gets into the socialization with parents.
Initially, in my early socializationexperience, I honestly, Lynn,
I have no clue where I gota doll, where it came from.
(07:33):
Somehow I was given a dollthat became my favorite toy.
I didn't know there was somethingthat as a, a little boy, I
shouldn't be playing with dolls.
I didn't know that.
Well, my father came home from work oneday and took the doll away and substituted
(07:54):
Teddy and I screamed my head off.
I got spanked for that.
I threw Teddy away.
Teddy got stuff back to me.
The next day I cut up Teddy, Imutilated Teddy, my father came
home with a new one and that was it.
(08:18):
I had no choice.
I was supposed to play baseball.
I was supposed to play football.
I was supposed to playwith the other boys.
I didn't like any of that.
Lynn (08:30):
So this was internally, you just knew.
That you were attracted to certain thingsand not attracted to other things Exactly.
Well, but the socialization,there was probably a name for it.
You know, girls things and boys things.
Oh, absolutely.
Colors.
That's the other thingwe define gender with.
Pink is for girls, blue is for boys.
(08:51):
And heaven forbid that a man shouldwear a pink shirt because then
he will be decided that he's gay.
Wendy (08:57):
Exactly.
Transgender is basically, back in the20th century, there were transvestites.
These are men who identify as men.
They just like the feel of women'sclothes Periodically, they just enjoy
dressing as women and being with otherlike-minded people who do the same thing.
Lynn (09:18):
In reality, there's nothing wrong with that.
Not a gender.
Is that a gender issue or is that.
Wendy (09:25):
Something else.
Well, within the, what we have nowwith the word transgender and a
social construct of the transgendercommunity, a lot of people do feel
that it's a gender oriented thingthat I really don't believe too, that
everybody going through that wholesecond trimester experience, it affects
(09:50):
people at different levels, I believe.
There are some people who are just verycomfortable with being a guy most of
the time, but they enjoy the feelingof being feminine and the feeling
of feminine clothing and all of theother things associated with that.
(10:11):
I've known quite a few people whodo this and they'll openly tell me.
I don't, I could never do what you did.
I don't wanna live as a woman.
I don't wanna be a woman.
Hmm.
That's part of the transgendercommunity, and they're probably the
biggest group in a biggest segmentin the transgender community.
(10:33):
They're guys, they identify asmale, except when they're dressed.
Then they'll say they're female.
Are they attracted to men or attractedto women, or both, or, this is the
confusing area for people outside thecommunity, especially when they look
what that question you just askeddoes is it pulls in the other thing
(10:57):
that is called sexual orientation.
Lynn (11:01):
Okay.
Wendy (11:02):
And there are are quite a few people who do cross dress.
And they'll go to a weekend event.
A lot of these guys that go to theseevents are doing this in secret.
They don't even tell their families.
Lynn (11:17):
Mm,
Wendy (11:18):
wives don't know.
Well, my husband's on a, uh, golfouting, or he's on a business trip.
Well, in actuality, he's off havingfun with his friends, dressing as a
woman and doing that for the weekendswithin that segment of the community.
When you.
Throw in sexual orientation, that'swhen they start experimenting with
(11:42):
gay sex, having either sex witheach other or there are, uh, men.
Otherwise, heterosexual,married, usually professional.
Who look at these events forgirls who look like women.
They can take them out on dates, they cantake them to dinner, and then they go back
(12:06):
to the hotel room and they have gay sex.
That is a fairly commonthing that happens.
Not a big percentage, butit's, it's definitely more
common than you would think.
Lynn (12:24):
These men don't cross dress, but they,
Wendy (12:27):
they go after people who do.
And I look at it and I think,okay, they're really bisexual.
Mm-hmm.
My time within the broad spectrumof the LGBT community, I rarely meet
people that say I'm bi, most menand women are in that world are gay.
(12:50):
And that's, that's dude.
That's understandable.
That's fine.
That's who they're attracted to.
That's how they're wired.
When you get into the transgenderworld, it gets a little more confusing
because then the people startwondering, okay, this person's dressing
as a woman having sex with a man.
(13:11):
What are they?
Well, in reality, LTB.
Sexual orientation.
Hmm.
The T is gender identity, um, difference.
Okay.
Big difference.
And then it gets complicated becausethe whole sexual orientation thing
(13:31):
can be lopped on top of the TATcan be a G, A B or an L. Mm-hmm.
If I, for one.
Were attracted to women.
My male facsimile had to be, and thatwas so I could check off that box,
(13:54):
but when it comes to who I'm reallyattracted to, I have no clue.
I wasn't in the right body.
Mm-hmm.
I did what I had to do.
That's, that's basically it.
Lynn (14:08):
And you talked about repressing for so many years that
all of that was just repressed.
You did the whole, youprobably didn't even.
Wendy (14:14):
The whole sexual orientation thing was repressed.
Yeah.
For me, having sex with aguy, oh my God, that's gross.
That's how I felt when Iwas in my male facsimile.
Yeah.
Now I date heterosexual men.
Yeah.
It has its complications.
Lynn (14:37):
One question, probably select question about transvestites.
Right.
See women who are dressed like men,very masculine, but I don't think,
do we call them transvestites?
Wendy (14:53):
Actually, no, it doesn't apply.
There's a double standard for women
Lynn (14:59):
it seemed like.
'cause when you were talkingabout transvestites, you were
talking about men dressing as come
Wendy (15:04):
in inly, but the reverse is, doesn't apply.
Women happen to be more.
Fluid with that.
Okay.
It's a societal thing.
Unbelief.
Lynn (15:19):
Yeah.
People think they're lesbian.
Wendy (15:23):
Uh, they can think that, or you know, if the, if the woman's
actually out working with a, uh,construction crew, which I've seen.
Yeah.
Uh, she's dressed more like one of theguys than she is a female, and that's
because of her employment and her work.
I. Yeah.
And society as a whole doesn'tthink twice about that.
(15:46):
Whereas if you put a guy in a dress,that's a whole different story.
And why can speak different?
You've just blown the patriarchy all away.
Lynn (15:58):
I think that's what it is, right?
It's okay.
Okay.
In our society to wanna be like a man.
Mm-hmm.
Because they're the ones in charge, right?
Mm-hmm.
So that's okay, but.
Don't have any men tryingto dress like women.
Okay.
Exactly.
That kind of makes sense in this society.
And
Wendy (16:18):
it's a societal norm that has been around ever since we've been a country.
And it's over time in various othersocial situations, the societal
norms and, and part of the reasonwhy people who are transsexual have
always hidden is in most societies.
(16:41):
It's not a norm, it's, oh, okay.
The British are a little bitmore fluid with their things.
Like, you know, if, uh, your uncle goesand comes to a picnic with wearing a
dress, you know, that's kind of okay.
The family sort of understands it.
It's, it's a different societal situation.
Lynn (17:03):
Well, when you think about years ago, movies, um, Mrs. Doubtfire
Wendy (17:09):
mm-hmm.
Lynn (17:10):
Victoria, what was it?
Victor Victoria.
Victor
Wendy (17:13):
Victoria.
Lynn (17:14):
You know, there are things that years ago we didn't think anything about.
Right.
You know, people cross-dressingand you know, now there's
such a big deal about it.
It's like, you know, this is terriblestuff and we don't wanna expose
our children to it and horribledrag queens and things like that.
Right?
What I mean this, I watchedMrs. Doubtfire and mm-hmm.
(17:39):
I was.
Injured quad.
I think I right.
Handled that pretty well.
What do you think is going onwith, with that in this society?
Is it the patriarchy
Wendy (17:51):
again?
Lynn (17:51):
Um,
Wendy (17:52):
it's a combination of for the patriarchy and then people using it
as a societal and political wedge.
Okay.
Yeah.
And that's, that's basicallywhere I would go with that.
And there are quite a few people tryingto legislate us out of existence.
Yeah.
(18:12):
Unfortunately, which is one of thereasons why I've started doing this.
Lynn (18:18):
And thank you're not for doing it.
Wendy (18:19):
They're not going to legislate me out of existence.
I refuse to go
Lynn (18:25):
well and educating people is the way to do that.
I really exactly believe that'sso important and that's why I'm
so appreciative of you doingthis and sharing so openly.
I. I learned
Wendy (18:38):
this by, almost by accident.
I, I moved into a community, uh, newHope, Pennsylvania with a large gay
population, and it was kind of, Ithink in the eighties or nineties,
it was known as the San Franciscoof the east of whole opening.
Okay?
So I figured, okay, gay community,they're gonna get me no problem,
(19:04):
not improve.
They didn't get it.
Huh?
They didn't get it becausethey like the rest of society.
Look at the transgender community andthey see all these different subgroups,
but they don't know their subgroups.
They don't know that thereare differences between them.
(19:25):
It's not that we don't like eachother or we don't get along with
each other, we just have a differentlifestyle, different way of presenting,
living, and how we see ourselves.
And it's all because I feelgender is more of a continuum.
(19:47):
You mean there's just X and Y chromosomes?
No.
That gender, male and femalenessis, no one's perfectly male,
no one's perfectly female.
It's a spectrum.
I've seen some very good non-binarypeople dress completely androgynously.
(20:07):
You would never know which genderthey were assigned at birth.
Well,
Lynn (20:13):
so let's define non-binary.
Wendy (20:15):
Because that's confusing, right?
They do not subscribe to havingany gender at all or to any gender
orientation or presentation.
Uh, they prefer it to just begender neutral, and I can't say
that I totally understand it.
I totally get it.
I've always felt the way Ifeel, they feel differently.
Lynn (20:39):
So are they bisexual?
What is there a difference between
Wendy (20:43):
sexual and, and there again, you're, you're overlaying.
The trans, trans, the T, the transgenderworld, which is all gender oriented.
You just overlaid sexualorientation on that.
Now, a non-binary person could,in theory be an L, a G, or B.
Lynn (21:05):
Okay, so that's the non-binary is the gender piece, right?
Not the sexual orientation piece.
Wendy (21:11):
Correct.
Lynn (21:12):
Again, okay.
Wendy (21:14):
It's a different
Lynn (21:15):
layer.
Hey.
Okay.
And it, and underneath that,there are subcategories.
Mm-hmm.
Wendy (21:22):
You know, I had a, uh, uh, an acquaintance one
time that was a psychologist.
Took him about two weeks ofconversations and thinking about
it to wrap his head around the factthat a t could be an LAG or a v.
And that somebody who is non-binary,somebody who is gender fluid, somebody
(21:47):
who is a cross-dresser and somebody who istranssexual, could be gay, bi, or lesbian.
So define gender fluid.
Well, you got non-binary.
Then you go into the genderfluid segment of the community.
It also varies by age too.
I was speaking with a group of, uh,students at a community college.
(22:11):
One of the pe one of the students askedme, 'cause they go, oh, uh, there are,
there are mornings when I wake up, Ijust feel feminine and I put on a skirt.
Other days I feel like a guyand I dress more like a guy.
At this point they said.
(22:32):
What I'm finding is people reactto me very weirdly at times, and
I explain to 'em, yes, we have,uh, you know, the societal norms.
So you show up one day, you look,you look more like a girl, and
everybody treats you like a girl.
They react accordingly,pronouns, et cetera.
(22:56):
Well.
The next day you show up differently.
Of course, it's gonna confuse peopleand you have to help them understand
what you are, how you are, andnot in a sense of justifying it.
But what I found through myown experiences, moving into a
(23:17):
heavily gay community and findingthat they didn't quite get me.
The more open I could be explainingmy life and how I felt and how what
my perspective on things is thathelped them understand that, helped
(23:38):
them understand and look at thiswhole transgender community and
see it in a different light that.
Yeah, I understand where these peopleare and these people that come into
town every three months and have these,you know, weekends, uh, cross-dressing
and all the other stuff that they do.
(23:59):
Okay, we get that.
That's whatever.
Lynn (24:02):
So what did it take for you to, to have these conversations with people?
Wendy (24:07):
I threw myself into it.
I looked at it and I said, Ihave no choice but to do this.
I, I want people to understand me.
I don't expect them toreally understand it.
I'm sure you've probably neverlooked in the mirror and said,
oh, I should have been a guy.
Lynn (24:23):
See, now I can identify with that.
No, never.
Never questioned it.
Wendy (24:27):
Exactly.
Whereas somebody like myself always did.
Lynn (24:33):
Yeah.
Wendy (24:34):
That person who's gender fluid does another type of gender fluid person.
They do cross dress and they canchange three, four times a day.
Between male and female appearances.
I knew a person who, uh, wouldgo out on sales calls as a
guy wearing a suit and a tie.
(24:56):
Deep voice the whole bit.
Have a nice sales call with a, with,uh, corporate level people Go back to
the car, in the car chain to a dress,heal, blah, blah, blah, and go to lunch.
Well.
Thought, nothing of it amazed me.
(25:17):
I couldn't do that.
Not because I didn't want to,it just just didn't feel right.
Putting everything on.
Taking everything off.
That's why I never crossed dressed.
I did it for maybe two,three years in my later life.
And gave it up.
Lynn (25:36):
So, but they're just, they're not saying that they wanna be one thing
and their, you know, their body's onething and their brain's something else.
Right.
Their brain is telling them thatthey're both fluid, that's the word.
Right?
Right.
They're
Wendy (25:47):
fluid, they can flip back and forth between them
Lynn (25:50):
and depending on how they're feeling or what the situation is or mm-hmm.
That kind of thing, is that.
Kinda what makes the difference there.
Yep.
Yeah.
Wendy (25:57):
Interesting.
That's exactly it.
And when they do that,the whole persona changes.
Lynn (26:04):
Hmm.
Wendy (26:05):
It's fascinating.
It was actually fun to watch
Lynn (26:09):
what you made me think of when you said the whole persona changes it,
psychological cases where people are threeor four different entities inside them.
Wendy (26:17):
I don't think it's that as much as it is like a gender fluid person like
that, someday that person may decide.
I've been justifying notdoing what Wendy did.
Mm-hmm.
Because I have a wife, I have kids, I have this job.
(26:38):
I can't do that right now.
So I'll just be satisfiedwith just being gender fluid.
Hmm.
I. That's some of the rationalebe behind it actually in the
cross-dressing part of the community.
That also is a case where at some pointin time they may realize that yes,
(27:01):
I really do want to live as a woman.
It's not common, but it happens.
It definitely happens 'cause alot of people that wind up in
my segment of the community.
Do wanna be there.
They just have all theserationales, or what I call excuses.
Mm-hmm.
(27:21):
Why they can't,
Lynn (27:22):
uh, okay.
They're, they're wired differently.
Mm-hmm.
So just be making excuses.
Others actually are this fluid,
Wendy (27:33):
or I, I've met a lot of people who, their wives know they cross dress.
The wife will actually go out todinner with them while they're dressed.
Uh, it's perfectly fine in the family andall of that, and they're happy with that.
And those guys all tell me, noway in hell do I wanna be a woman.
(27:53):
First of all, I'm givingup my male privilege.
No.
Or their penis.
Lynn (27:59):
Exactly.
There things that, that aren't worth it.
Exactly.
So they're seeing how women aretreated and they don't wanna be
treated like that all the time.
Right.
I wonder if they treat womendifferently because of that orientation?
I would think so,
Wendy (28:16):
from what I've seen, yes.
Probably more empathetic.
Lynn (28:20):
Mm-hmm.
Wendy (28:20):
I've had two wives tell me that, uh, it made all the difference
in their relationship becausehe's happy and he's not hiding.
Not a secret anymore.
Lynn (28:33):
And you saw the difference in you when you were congruent and you
were happy, and so that makes sense.
Exactly.
What about intersex?
Wendy (28:46):
Intersex is a whole other, a whole other world.
These are people that actually,when they were born and the doctor
went to go slap them on the butt.
And announced what they were.
The doctor looked and couldn'tmake up his, his or her mind.
Mm-hmm.
(29:07):
It wasn't obvious from, uh, theway the genital area was formed.
I spoke recently with a womanwho, she's fairly, she's pretty
active in the intersex community.
That's its whole separate world.
Part of it is in the past, and Ibelieve it still goes on to a degree.
I'm not sure.
(29:28):
Very early on in, in the infant's life orthe child's life, they'll do surgeries to
make the genital area more congruent withhow the parents are raising the child.
What,
Lynn (29:44):
what
Wendy (29:45):
age are they doing that?
Anywhere from their, uh, singledigits up, but, uh, you know,
like 5, 6, 7, 8 years old.
The child has no input to it.
That's the problem.
Lynn (29:59):
Yeah.
I mean, not, you know, likeyou were saying, at three years
old, you knew you were a girl.
So do these children, I mean,do they have a, a gender sense?
I'm not sure
Wendy (30:11):
if they do or they don't.
I've only known one personpersonally who was born intersex.
Her parents insisted onraising her as a boy.
The genital area was surgically correctedat a very in early childhood to look
(30:32):
like a boy too much as possible.
What happened was, anyway, shedid have a gender sense, but it
was more toward and after puberty.
Okay?
And that's when she knew she was a girl.
That didn't go over well with parentsand she kind of went down the same,
(30:53):
same path that a person like myselfwould go down, you know, telling
your parents, I'm really a girl.
Uh, insisting on being raisedthat way and meeting with all
the parental resistance to that.
Yeah, and it really can messa person up pretty badly.
And that's one of the things thatthis person I met on LinkedIn and
(31:16):
talked with, we had a, we had a nicelong zoom conversation about it.
She said that's what they're workingon is trying to, you know, limit
the, the, the surgical proceduresuntil the person can actually make a
determination of their own and supportingpeople who are going through this.
(31:39):
In my case, I had a perfectlynormal male anatomy.
Most transgender people do haveperfectly normal, whatever that is.
Uh, female or male anatomy, intersexis a whole different thing, okay?
Because of they're born withbasically ambiguous genitals.
Lynn (32:03):
Hmm.
And the chromosomes areprobably different too.
It's probably not just mm-hmm.
Yep.
And I had a nurse tell me too that thereare, you know, different combinations
of chromosomes, that it's not justtraditional male or female, that Exactly.
Chromosomes are showingthat that differentiation.
Wendy (32:25):
I know there's a lot of research going on with this, and that's
why, that's why I just emphasizedthat gender is highly diverse.
It's not one thing or another,and all people can fit somewhere
on that male, female spectrum.
(32:45):
And it's also situational too.
Depending on the situation, youmight shift very heavily into the
masculine world of, of behavior traits,block all of that, depending on the
situation if you're under attack.
Lynn (33:03):
Yes.
Wendy (33:04):
That can trigger different types of behaviors that are more in the
masculine side of the gender spectrum.
Self
Lynn (33:13):
preservation there.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So let's define cisgender.
So we cover that true most.
I don't know if people know that actually
Wendy (33:25):
cisgender was a term that was started up the transgender community.
To differentiate people like mefrom people like you, you have
always been totally alignedwith your gender assigned birth.
Uh, CIS is some Latin term, whichwhen you put it on the front of
(33:48):
cisgender it, it implies you'realigned with your assignment of gender
at birth, I. Most people in societyare not familiar with that term,
cisgender, and find it confusing.
So I've always tried to switch itaround and change it up to born
(34:08):
as, or you accept how you're born,
Lynn (34:12):
okay.
Wendy (34:13):
Uh, as a way of explaining it to people.
But in general, that'swhat cisgender means.
You just totally are in alignmentwith how you were, uh, assigned.
Uh, your gender at birth and peoplealso you use that, use the term gender
and sex in that interchangeably.
(34:34):
Yeah.
And that's what
Lynn (34:34):
I've learned from you today is that those are two different things.
Two different things, gender and sex.
And it's so interesting how youcan layer the, the sex under the
gender, is that what you were saying?
Uh, the sexual education.
Yeah, but sexual
Wendy (34:50):
orientation, the orientation is, is kind of like layered over everything.
Lynn (34:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very interesting.
What other terms did we miss today?
Drag queens.
Oh yeah.
Wendy (35:03):
When I first transitioned and started meeting people in
transgender world and meeting pe, otherpeople in the LGBT type community.
Drag is an art form.
Mm-hmm.
It's performance.
Period.
It has, it has typically been, uh, gay menand occasionally heterosexual men who will
(35:31):
dress in very performative, flamboyant,any particular style that they pick up
on, they'll lip, lip sync music and songs.
They'll pretend to be differentfamous women artists, whatever.
It's art form.
It's, it's, it's something that was donein, largely in the gay world and it's
(35:59):
associated with gay and lesbian life.
Uh, it's become popular among regularpeople to go and see drag performances.
I had some people that toldme, oh, drag queens are part
of the transgender community.
No, they're not.
In fact, I, one of, one of the guys that Iknew who did drag, I, I said to him, does
(36:24):
it upset you or do you have any problemswith people in my community saying that
you're part of the transgender world?
And he looked at me andgoes, it pisses me off.
I'm a gay man.
There's no way in hellI want to be a woman.
And there's no way in hell that my dragperformances implies that I'm a woman.
Lynn (36:51):
Mm-hmm.
Wendy (36:52):
It's performative, period.
Lynn (36:56):
You know, we saw a play a couple of years ago and I can't even remember the
name of the play, but it was a theaterand they had drag performances and one
man was working behind state, heterostraight man, and one of the performers.
Somehow they lost one of the performersand they talked him into dressing in drag,
(37:18):
you know, and, and it was really cute.
But he kept that from his wife.
And then she showed up oneday and he's dressed in drag.
But, you know, it was strictly, I mean,there were the, the gay performers, but
he was not, he was hetero and Right.
And it was, but even just.
(37:38):
Regardless of the storyline, just watchingthose performances, it was so much fun,
you know, just to see, you know, the, thesilly stuff and the, the over the top.
Oh God.
Yeah.
You know, and, andthey're quite good at it.
Very good at it.
Very
Wendy (37:55):
good at it.
Yeah.
And that same guy toll looked atme and he knew I was getting my
surgery soon, and he looked at meand he said, if you ever wanna do
drag, you can't have your surgery.
Oh, you have to havemale parts and be a guy.
(38:16):
Well, okay, so I
Lynn (38:20):
can't do drag.
That's okay.
Can't be drag.
Didn't want to anyway.
Right.
I was looking at these terms thatyou said, which I really appreciate
this list of gender dysphoria.
Gender
Wendy (38:34):
dysphoria.
Again, that is a term from the latterpart of the last century, uh, that has
to do with the feeling that I had, thatthis maleness that I'm supposed to be,
uh, living as, doesn't work for me.
And even to some doctors,the term dysphoria.
(39:00):
It's confusing as to what thatmeans and how that is interpreted by
the person who is experiencing it.
So I actually prefer the, tolook at it as a gender alignment.
That's basically what gender dysphoria is.
You're your, your, uh, gender thatyou feel versus your gender assigned
(39:25):
at birth are out of alignment.
Lynn (39:28):
Mm.
Wendy (39:29):
Okay.
And it causes a lot of, uh,discomfort for some people.
It varies by degree.
Lynn (39:35):
Well, and that's what you were feeling?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
As you were growing up, and we've talked,I think, I don't know if we need to
talk about gender conforming surgery.
That's what you had,
Wendy (39:47):
GCS also in the last century.
They just called it sex change.
Fancy word for it, right?
Yeah.
Basically what that is right now isyou're taking your physical anatomy and
you're changing it so that it fits withhow you see yourself and the alignment
(40:09):
of your being with yourself, and it'sdifferent from hormone treatment.
Hormone therapy is pretty much first stagethat anyone like myself would go through.
Testosterone blockers,block that nasty stuffs.
What the fuck?
Testosterone gives youa lot of aggression.
(40:32):
Mm. Anger can can be a very powerful,very powerful hormone for me.
It.
I could feel it immediately.
Not so much the estrogen,but the testosterone blocker.
Lynn (40:50):
Oh, okay.
Wendy (40:51):
That's another form of me medication.
Uh, Spiro actin is the blockerthat they gave me and um, that has
some side effects long term, soyou don't wanna be on it forever.
And, uh, that's why a lot of people,even if they don't ever plan on having
(41:14):
vagina, plasty, will go with whatis called an orchiectomy, and that's
where they re remove the testicles.
Oh.
Because that's, that's whatproduces the testosterone.
Lynn (41:29):
Mm-hmm.
Wendy (41:30):
And by eliminating them, you don't have to take the blockers anymore.
Lynn (41:35):
Okay,
Wendy (41:36):
so there's quite a few people in the community.
They, they start with that.
Lynn (41:40):
And so those hormones, whether you're going male to female or
female to male, but the change inthe hormones and changes kind of
your I Oh, to think of the word.
Tell me what, it changes your feelings.
It changes.
Oh my God.
Tell, describe that.
'cause I'm getting nowherewith what I'm trying to, it's.
Wendy (42:03):
See you've always had estrogen.
Lynn (42:06):
Yeah.
So I don't know the difference
Wendy (42:08):
exactly.
For me it was like all of a suddenall of these feelings of it, it's
like the sky just opened up for me.
Lynn (42:18):
Hmm.
Wendy (42:19):
It became a bright, sunny, blue sky.
I felt great.
It was within, uh, within thefirst week of being on estrogen.
Oh, that stands Okay.
It literally convinced me thisis exactly what I needed to.
For most people, it is rather,uh, quick and it's rather nice.
(42:41):
Finally, finally, where I used tolive, I went to an endocrinologist.
He was, uh, trained at NYU MedicalSchool in Greenwich Village, uh,
during I guess the eighties ornineties, something like that.
And saw a lot of girls likemyself living there, and at that
(43:03):
time they had no medical care.
They were getting their estrogen outof the country or underground somehow.
It wasn't prescribed by any doctorbecause this wasn't something
that you could go to a doctor for.
It's a psychological conditionthat has no treatment and no cure.
(43:24):
So.
He told me the sad thing he saw duringthat timeframe was not only were they
being arrested by New York City policefor appearing in public as female, which
was against the law in New York state.
Really?
Yep.
(43:45):
Eighties, nineties.
Lynn (43:48):
So even the, the drag queens.
Oh yeah.
They got busted too.
Yeah.
Anybody who was, any man who wasdressed as a woman, as a woman, woman
Wendy (43:59):
could, it could be subject to arrest.
I guess that toned downas the century proceeded.
But in 1969 when Stonewall wasgoing on, mm-hmm It was the drag
queens and the transsexuals whothrew the bricks, the first bricks.
'cause they were pissed off at the cops.
(44:20):
For all the harassment and all the finesand nights in jail and all of that.
So the, the whole feelingof estrogen therapy and
everything is just unbelievable.
And this, uh, doctor that I was seeing,uh, where I used to live, he told me the,
(44:42):
the, the number of patients he sees now.
Who are young.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and are going f to m, female to male.
Really?
Okay.
That, that he told me when I lastsaw him, that that was his largest
population of parents, of, of, of patients
Lynn (45:05):
parents would
Wendy (45:05):
bringing their daughters and, and get prescribed, uh, testosterone therapy.
Lynn (45:12):
Hmm.
And is that the same?
Amount of power is going Oh yeah.
Either way.
So you give them that testosteroneand immediately they're, that
gives a change over feeling that,
Wendy (45:26):
feeling that
Lynn (45:27):
male
Wendy (45:29):
shouldn't, that it's, it's a powerful thing.
It's just difficult to describehow powerful it really is.
It really is.
Well, and that like, I mean,
Lynn (45:38):
that's the first step, right?
Mm-hmm.
Wendy (45:40):
And with the, uh, female to males.
Once they're on testosterone fora while, the voice lowers okay.
It becomes a normal male voice.
They also develop facial hair, beardshair on the arms, and I saw, I went to
(46:03):
the transgender health clinic at thePhiladelphia Convention Center, was
one of my first big public outings.
I hadn't transitioned toliving full-time as Wendy yet.
I hadn't moved into my apartment yet.
I went to conference in Philadelphiawith the first transgender person
(46:28):
that I ever met, and that was, Ithink June of 2015 or May of 2015.
It blew me away.
I had lived my entire lifethinking I was one of maybe a
few people that felt like this.
I walked into the convention center.
(46:48):
There were over 6,000people there that day.
Going from one seminar to another ondifferent aspects of transitioning
and all the medical procedures,there were doctors there.
I am just like totally mind blown.
Lynn (47:07):
You tamped it down for so long.
Oh, good.
Yes.
You know, you told me you didn'teven Google anything about it.
You didn't want to, to feel bad.
You didn't want to, you know?
Mm-hmm.
So in that situation, right,
Wendy (47:23):
I, I saw my friend talking with this group of guys and I kept
on walking, you know, I'm doing mything, I'll let her do her thing.
And that was cool.
And then I go back and I go.
What
this was a group of guys?
Yes.
And they were all f to m's.
(47:48):
That was the first that you were aware of?
Yeah.
And then how, how dramaticthe change was for them.
Yeah.
And the deep voices and everything else.
It was, it was just mind boggling.
Thousands of people andthis and everything.
Lynn (48:09):
Well, and you said too that the muscular chair changes.
Yes.
You know, like you said, for, foryou, excuse me, for you, that changed
Wendy (48:20):
very much so, so I'm sharing that
Lynn (48:21):
F to m that's gonna change too.
Wendy (48:23):
Exactly.
And it does.
Through my friend I've met, I meta couple of other people like.
And actually was able to talkwith them and everything about the
whole experience they went through.
And yes, muscular builds.
There's no way in hell I wouldever look at them and see
anything but a guy, period.
(48:45):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Lynn (48:46):
Fascinating.
Yeah.
And.
Wendy (48:49):
A little aside my, that was my, I said my first big
public outing and everything.
Yeah,
Lynn (48:55):
tell me about that.
Wendy (48:56):
I was actually at this booth filling out a card, registering with
Equality PA to, you know, volunteer ordo something with them and all of that.
I was just overwhelmed by the whole scene.
Thousands of people that up until.
(49:16):
A month earlier I neverwould've known, existed.
Lynn (49:20):
Well, and probably, you know, you wouldn't have recognized someone
as anything other than what they weredressed like, how they were appearing.
Same thing when people look atyou, they wouldn't, they wouldn't
automatically say, oh, she transitioned.
Mm-hmm.
You know, so they're hiding in plain sightwithout the name tag that says I'm trans.
Wendy (49:43):
Right.
Exactly.
Right.
That's one of the things too that Iabsolutely will never do, and a lot of
people in my particular situation don't.
We don't apply that to us.
We don't advertise that.
If I were to meet you at a lunch witha friend or something like that and we
(50:07):
talked, I wouldn't tell you about my past.
It would have to be circumstantiallya correct thing to go and do.
Mm-hmm.
Otherwise, I don't say I'm atrans woman or I, I'm transgender.
I would never say it.
Lynn (50:27):
Well, and if we were having lunch, I wouldn't go
into my medical history either.
Wendy (50:30):
Exactly.
Lynn (50:31):
Right.
Exactly.
You know, unless somethingwere appropriate to the
conversation, but mm-hmm.
That.
You're moving forward, you're establishingthe present and moving forward.
Exactly.
Yeah.
You don't have to advertise.
Wendy (50:47):
And as an aside, the following year I sat at that booth.
You did?
For other people to fill out the cards.
Lynn (50:56):
Wonderful.
Wendy (50:58):
So
Lynn (50:59):
probably with a whole different feeling.
Mm-hmm.
The year before.
Wendy (51:02):
Oh, totally.
Wonderful feeling,
Lynn (51:05):
isn't it?
Wendy (51:06):
Wow.
I went from.
Not knowing anything existedto actually, here I am
Lynn (51:15):
with all these people.
Uhhuh.
Yeah, like-minded, like experiences.
Is anything else in the, the terminologythat you wanna talk about that, are
there any in the, uh, list that Isent you that, uh, stand out to you?
Well, there's some, um, terms to avoid.
(51:36):
Okay.
Which.
You're talking about, you know, trans,not saying you're a trans woman, but
some of these, it says term to avoid.
Mm-hmm.
Born a man, born a woman.
Biologically male, biologically female.
Genetically male, female.
Tell me about why thoseare terms to avoid.
(51:57):
'cause I think I've said that about you.
They, well, some of them, uh, okay.
Wendy (52:02):
Born male.
Well, that implies what?
Is down between my legs.
It doesn't identify what'sbetween my ears, how I think.
That's why they say to avoid them.
Okay?
Because, uh, what you're doing with, withthose terms is you're taking the physical
(52:22):
anatomy part of the, uh, equation andapplying it to the gender, sex, gender.
Very different topics.
Lynn (52:35):
Yes.
Here, it's not the complete picture.
Wendy (52:38):
Right.
Lynn (52:39):
Okay.
So it says to avoid the term transgenderor transgender, and best practice is
transgender people or transgender person.
I would say
Wendy (52:51):
transgender person is probably the more correct and, uh, more acceptable.
I would, I would agree that Iwould say I was born transgender.
Hmm.
That's a, that's the conditionthat I was born with, which is
now in the, uh, diagnostic codesconsidered a medical condition.
(53:15):
Finally, finally, andthat happened in 2012.
We had to wait all that kindfor that to happen up until the,
uh, some point in the seventies.
Being gay was apsychological condition and.
Then they changed it.
It took from that point all theway through to 2012 for people like
(53:41):
myself to be considered a medicalcondition, condition you're born with.
Lynn (53:48):
Well, and and looking at this list when I was talking about terms to avoid,
it's saying Avoid male to female or femaleto male, and better to use transgender
man or transgender woman or person.
You know, again, it'sthe sex, gender, right.
Oversimplification type of thing.
Mm-hmm.
I don't know.
May, maybe we've addressedthat one sufficiently.
(54:10):
I think so.
Okay.
Is there anything else that,that you can think of off the
top of my head at the moment?
No.
And down here, when it's talking aboutterms, other terms to avoid, um, fooling,
posing, pretending, masquerading.
Oh God, yes.
Which is, you know, andyou're talking about passing.
(54:30):
Mm-hmm.
That type of language,
Wendy (54:33):
very negative.
It also implies like, well, one ofthe common scenarios that they like
to throw out publicly to scare societyabout people like myself is Oh yeah,
they're gonna wake up one morning andI'm a, I'm a woman and I'm gonna go
into the ladies' room and molest people.
(54:53):
That never happens.
Lynn (54:55):
No, not unless you're heterosexual male.
Exactly.
Honey mean, come on.
How often have we heard of that happening?
No, and one of the things
Wendy (55:04):
I was talking with, with another girl like my, who lives in a southern
state, this was back in in 2021 orso, we were on Zoom and she's saying
to me she gets very nervous goinginto the women's room because of the
state laws that got passed there.
And she could be arrestedand everything else.
(55:27):
I said, just stop.
Take those thoughts out of your mind.
You blend in as a woman.
Wherever you go, you're living as a woman.
You're working as a woman.
You have a, you have a good job.
Don't worry about it.
Get it out of your mind.
Don't put that energyout into the universe.
(55:49):
Just go in.
What do we do when we gointo the ladies' room?
Lynn (55:53):
We
Wendy (55:53):
go, we go and stall and
Lynn (55:54):
close the door.
Wendy (55:57):
We go Sit down, go there to pee.
You sit down.
And so whether or not that's theother thing when, whether we've
had surgery or not, when we gointo the room, you sit down.
Yeah.
Orient your feet in the pro direction.
(56:19):
And you just do it.
And that's all there is to it.
When you get up and you go out, you'rejust like any other woman there.
You wash your hands and you just leave.
That's it.
Are we going to go in andmolest women and children?
I haven't legs.
That's ridiculous.
Yeah.
(56:39):
But that's all that feeling behindthose words, pretending and.
All of that.
It's just a very negativeway of looking at things.
Yeah.
And the reality is totally different.
Lynn (56:54):
Yes.
And people who are making up these thingsand saying these things are literally
making them up, they don't know.
Exactly.
And that's why it's so importantto have conversations with
you, to, to get this out there.
Mm-hmm.
You know, to get people tounderstand what's going on, to
hear the truth about things.
(57:14):
Hear it from someonewho's been through that.
Right.
Wendy (57:17):
I want people to hear about it from somebody who's lived it.
Yes, absolutely.
And I definitely have.
You definitely have, and actuallyI have no regrets about anything.
I am grateful that Imade it this far in life.
(57:39):
Mm-hmm.
And, uh.
Uh,
Lynn (57:41):
that I've had all these experiences.
Well, and I'm grateful thatyou're sharing those with us.
Wendy, thank you for being here todayand helping us demystify the terminology
around gender and transgender.
This has been such an enlighteningconversation, and we have more in store.
For our audience and to ouraudience, thank you for joining
me and Wendy Cole today.
If you're interested in learning moreabout Wendy, look for her website.
(58:04):
Meet wendy cole.com.
You can also find out moreinformation about demystifying the
transgender journey on our website,the transgender journey.com.
Share this podcast with your curiousand open-minded friends as we try to
educate people and counter all themisinformation and disinformation that's
out there on, especially on socialmedia about the transgender experience.
(58:28):
I'm your host Lynn Murphy, and I'mso grateful you are here today.
Join us next time.
We'll see you then.
Thank you for joining us todayon this episode of Demystifying
the Transgender Journey.
Remember to subscribe so youdon't miss a single episode
of our fascinating interviews.
You can also find more information onour website, the transgender journey.com.
(58:48):
So until next time, staycurious and stay kind.
Probably silly question about transvestites.
(00:03):
You see women who are dressedlike men, very masculine.
Do we call them transvestites?
Wendy (00:08):
Actually, no.
There's a double standard for women.
Society as a whole doesn'tthink twice about that.
Whereas if you put a guy in a dress,that's a whole different story.
You've just blown the patriarchy all away.
Lynn (00:23):
I think that's what it is, right?
Mm-hmm.
It's okay in our societyto wanna be like a man.
Mm-hmm.
Because they're the ones in charge, right?
Mm-hmm.
So that's okay, but don't have anymen trying to dress like women.
Okay.
Exactly.
That kind of makes sense in this society.
What do you really know aboutpeople who were born transgender?
(00:45):
Have you ever met someonewho's transgender?
Well, if you're like me, you'recurious, but hesitant to ask questions.
Well, welcome to demystifying theTransgender Journey in our conversations
with people who were born transgender,their families, friends, and the
professionals who support them, weask probing questions and discover
insightful and educational answers.
You can also find more information onour website, the transgender journey.com.
(01:11):
Now, let's get right into today's episode.
Welcome to another episode ofDemystifying the Transgender Journey.
I'm Lynn Murphy, your host.
I'm the founder of Women of Pushthe Limits and the author of the
Amazon bestselling book, 50 LifeLessons From Inspiring Women.
Today we're continuing our conversationwith the amazing, inspiring, incredible
(01:32):
Wendy Cole, who is now 75 years old.
She transitioned when she was 67, eventhough she knew from the time she was
three years old that she was not a boy.
She was definitely a girl.
She lived her life until she was67 in that boy's body, and now
she's living authentically as thewoman that she always knew she was.
If you've listened to her previousepisodes, you know what an
(01:54):
amazing individual she is and howauthentically she shares her story.
She and I are out there to educatepeople about the misinformation and
disinformation about being transgender,and I'm so delighted to be having
these conversations with Wendy.
If you haven't seen our previous episodes,be sure to look for 'em either on YouTube
(02:15):
or on your favorite podcast channel.
And today we're going to demystifythe terminology around the
topic of gender and transgender.
So Wendy, thank you for doing this.
Welcome back to Demystifyingthe Transgender Journey.
Wendy (02:29):
Hi, Lynn.
I'm so glad to be doing this withyou and I'm, and grateful for it.
Thank you.
Lynn (02:35):
Well, I'm so grateful that you're spending all this
time that we're digging deep.
Into your story as well as into justkind of what's going on so we can
educate people who are listening tothe podcast who maybe don't know what's
going on with the transgender world.
Right.
And you know, you, you shared so muchabout your experience that's just
(02:58):
opened my eyes and help me understandmore about what, what that's all about.
And thank you for doing that.
And I know we've gotmore conversations to go.
Oh yeah.
We've got, let's start out todaytalking about terminology people
may not be familiar with, you know?
Sure.
Wendy (03:20):
A, a lot of times people don't ask questions or don't speak
comfortably with people like myselfbecause they don't know what to say.
They don't know the words to use.
So terminology is an important subject.
Lynn (03:38):
So, where would you like to start?
Should we talk about justthe term transgender?
Let's start with that.
Sure.
Wendy (03:45):
A transgender person is someone who is born there.
Some reason there, there's a part of thebrain where it develops in in females to
be more predominant, more well developed.
Whereas, uh, in males, it, thatarea of the brain doesn't develop
(04:05):
that much, or it's kind of dormant.
So that's kind of a physical difference.
And in the second trimesterof birth, that's where the
sexual differentiation begins.
It's where the body begins toeither become male or female.
As far as the genital area goes,the formation of a uterus, ovaries,
(04:29):
testicles, penis, all of thatstarts in the second trimester.
Somewhere along the line, in thatsecond trimester, the brain also
gets signals as to what's going on.
In the case of myself and mostother people born transgender,
(04:52):
somehow or another, the brain gotthe signal, you're a girl with this.
And the body went and became a boy.
And the thing about it is, is ithappens more often than you would
imagine, and it's happened for hundredsand hundreds and hundreds of years.
Lynn (05:10):
Who, so we're not just talking about an XRY chromosome then
Wendy (05:13):
No.
Lynn (05:15):
There's more than that.
There's more than that.
Wendy (05:18):
Alright.
It's basically how the brain gets wired.
Lynn (05:22):
Mm-hmm.
Wendy (05:23):
And also, as the body is developing before you're born, the
whole physical aspect of it happens.
But once you're born, that's whenthe doctor says, oh, it's a boy.
Oh, it's a girl.
Well.
You don't really know that atthat point they're just looking
Lynn (05:45):
at the genitals.
Right.
Just physical anatomy period.
And then they're, they're claimingwith, you know, instant look
at, at the body that this is,
Wendy (05:56):
boy, this is a girl.
Exactly.
Most people also associatethe word sex with boy or girl.
Mm-hmm.
The word gender doesn't come into play for most people.
So what's the differencebetween sex and gender?
Sex is your physical anatomy.
Sex is also triggers into sexualorientation as to who you are attracted
(06:22):
to, but gender is how you identify.
Do you identify?
Do you feel inside you?
What your whole alignment of yourbeing, is that male or female?
For most people, it's not an issue fromthe day they're born all the way through.
(06:47):
They know they're a guy, they know they'rea girl, and that's all there is to it.
They never question it, andthey're perfectly in alignment with
their whole being is in alignment
Lynn (07:01):
when you're that young.
Mm-hmm.
How do you know what a boy is supposed to?
Feel like, think like do like or whata girl's supposed to feel like, think,
Wendy (07:12):
like do like that gets into the socialization with parents.
Initially, in my early socializationexperience, I honestly, Lynn,
I have no clue where I gota doll, where it came from.
(07:33):
Somehow I was given a dollthat became my favorite toy.
I didn't know there was somethingthat as a, a little boy, I
shouldn't be playing with dolls.
I didn't know that.
Well, my father came home from work oneday and took the doll away and substituted
(07:54):
Teddy and I screamed my head off.
I got spanked for that.
I threw Teddy away.
Teddy got stuff back to me.
The next day I cut up Teddy, Imutilated Teddy, my father came
home with a new one and that was it.
(08:18):
I had no choice.
I was supposed to play baseball.
I was supposed to play football.
I was supposed to playwith the other boys.
I didn't like any of that.
Lynn (08:30):
So this was internally, you just knew.
That you were attracted to certain thingsand not attracted to other things Exactly.
Well, but the socialization,there was probably a name for it.
You know, girls things and boys things.
Oh, absolutely.
Colors.
That's the other thingwe define gender with.
Pink is for girls, blue is for boys.
(08:51):
And heaven forbid that a man shouldwear a pink shirt because then
he will be decided that he's gay.
Wendy (08:57):
Exactly.
Transgender is basically, back in the20th century, there were transvestites.
These are men who identify as men.
They just like the feel of women'sclothes Periodically, they just enjoy
dressing as women and being with otherlike-minded people who do the same thing.
Lynn (09:18):
In reality, there's nothing wrong with that.
Not a gender.
Is that a gender issue or is that.
Wendy (09:25):
Something else.
Well, within the, what we have nowwith the word transgender and a
social construct of the transgendercommunity, a lot of people do feel
that it's a gender oriented thingthat I really don't believe too, that
everybody going through that wholesecond trimester experience, it affects
(09:50):
people at different levels, I believe.
There are some people who are just verycomfortable with being a guy most of
the time, but they enjoy the feelingof being feminine and the feeling
of feminine clothing and all of theother things associated with that.
(10:11):
I've known quite a few people whodo this and they'll openly tell me.
I don't, I could never do what you did.
I don't wanna live as a woman.
I don't wanna be a woman.
Hmm.
That's part of the transgendercommunity, and they're probably the
biggest group in a biggest segmentin the transgender community.
(10:33):
They're guys, they identify asmale, except when they're dressed.
Then they'll say they're female.
Are they attracted to men or attractedto women, or both, or, this is the
confusing area for people outside thecommunity, especially when they look
what that question you just askeddoes is it pulls in the other thing
(10:57):
that is called sexual orientation.
Lynn (11:01):
Okay.
Wendy (11:02):
And there are are quite a few people who do cross dress.
And they'll go to a weekend event.
A lot of these guys that go to theseevents are doing this in secret.
They don't even tell their families.
Lynn (11:17):
Mm,
Wendy (11:18):
wives don't know.
Well, my husband's on a, uh, golfouting, or he's on a business trip.
Well, in actuality, he's off havingfun with his friends, dressing as a
woman and doing that for the weekendswithin that segment of the community.
When you.
Throw in sexual orientation, that'swhen they start experimenting with
(11:42):
gay sex, having either sex witheach other or there are, uh, men.
Otherwise, heterosexual,married, usually professional.
Who look at these events forgirls who look like women.
They can take them out on dates, they cantake them to dinner, and then they go back
(12:06):
to the hotel room and they have gay sex.
That is a fairly commonthing that happens.
Not a big percentage, butit's, it's definitely more
common than you would think.
Lynn (12:24):
These men don't cross dress, but they,
Wendy (12:27):
they go after people who do.
And I look at it and I think,okay, they're really bisexual.
Mm-hmm.
My time within the broad spectrumof the LGBT community, I rarely meet
people that say I'm bi, most menand women are in that world are gay.
(12:50):
And that's, that's dude.
That's understandable.
That's fine.
That's who they're attracted to.
That's how they're wired.
When you get into the transgenderworld, it gets a little more confusing
because then the people startwondering, okay, this person's dressing
as a woman having sex with a man.
(13:11):
What are they?
Well, in reality, LTB.
Sexual orientation.
Hmm.
The T is gender identity, um, difference.
Okay.
Big difference.
And then it gets complicated becausethe whole sexual orientation thing
(13:31):
can be lopped on top of the TATcan be a G, A B or an L. Mm-hmm.
If I, for one.
Were attracted to women.
My male facsimile had to be, and thatwas so I could check off that box,
(13:54):
but when it comes to who I'm reallyattracted to, I have no clue.
I wasn't in the right body.
Mm-hmm.
I did what I had to do.
That's, that's basically it.
Lynn (14:08):
And you talked about repressing for so many years that
all of that was just repressed.
You did the whole, youprobably didn't even.
Wendy (14:14):
The whole sexual orientation thing was repressed.
Yeah.
For me, having sex with aguy, oh my God, that's gross.
That's how I felt when Iwas in my male facsimile.
Yeah.
Now I date heterosexual men.
Yeah.
It has its complications.
Lynn (14:37):
One question, probably select question about transvestites.
Right.
See women who are dressed like men,very masculine, but I don't think,
do we call them transvestites?
Wendy (14:53):
Actually, no, it doesn't apply.
There's a double standard for women
Lynn (14:59):
it seemed like.
'cause when you were talkingabout transvestites, you were
talking about men dressing as come
Wendy (15:04):
in inly, but the reverse is, doesn't apply.
Women happen to be more.
Fluid with that.
Okay.
It's a societal thing.
Unbelief.
Lynn (15:19):
Yeah.
People think they're lesbian.
Wendy (15:23):
Uh, they can think that, or you know, if the, if the woman's
actually out working with a, uh,construction crew, which I've seen.
Yeah.
Uh, she's dressed more like one of theguys than she is a female, and that's
because of her employment and her work.
I. Yeah.
And society as a whole doesn'tthink twice about that.
(15:46):
Whereas if you put a guy in a dress,that's a whole different story.
And why can speak different?
You've just blown the patriarchy all away.
Lynn (15:58):
I think that's what it is, right?
It's okay.
Okay.
In our society to wanna be like a man.
Mm-hmm.
Because they're the ones in charge, right?
Mm-hmm.
So that's okay, but.
Don't have any men tryingto dress like women.
Okay.
Exactly.
That kind of makes sense in this society.
And
Wendy (16:18):
it's a societal norm that has been around ever since we've been a country.
And it's over time in various othersocial situations, the societal
norms and, and part of the reasonwhy people who are transsexual have
always hidden is in most societies.
(16:41):
It's not a norm, it's, oh, okay.
The British are a little bitmore fluid with their things.
Like, you know, if, uh, your uncle goesand comes to a picnic with wearing a
dress, you know, that's kind of okay.
The family sort of understands it.
It's, it's a different societal situation.
Lynn (17:03):
Well, when you think about years ago, movies, um, Mrs. Doubtfire
Wendy (17:09):
mm-hmm.
Lynn (17:10):
Victoria, what was it?
Victor Victoria.
Victor
Wendy (17:13):
Victoria.
Lynn (17:14):
You know, there are things that years ago we didn't think anything about.
Right.
You know, people cross-dressingand you know, now there's
such a big deal about it.
It's like, you know, this is terriblestuff and we don't wanna expose
our children to it and horribledrag queens and things like that.
Right?
What I mean this, I watchedMrs. Doubtfire and mm-hmm.
(17:39):
I was.
Injured quad.
I think I right.
Handled that pretty well.
What do you think is going onwith, with that in this society?
Is it the patriarchy
Wendy (17:51):
again?
Lynn (17:51):
Um,
Wendy (17:52):
it's a combination of for the patriarchy and then people using it
as a societal and political wedge.
Okay.
Yeah.
And that's, that's basicallywhere I would go with that.
And there are quite a few people tryingto legislate us out of existence.
Yeah.
(18:12):
Unfortunately, which is one of thereasons why I've started doing this.
Lynn (18:18):
And thank you're not for doing it.
Wendy (18:19):
They're not going to legislate me out of existence.
I refuse to go
Lynn (18:25):
well and educating people is the way to do that.
I really exactly believe that'sso important and that's why I'm
so appreciative of you doingthis and sharing so openly.
I. I learned
Wendy (18:38):
this by, almost by accident.
I, I moved into a community, uh, newHope, Pennsylvania with a large gay
population, and it was kind of, Ithink in the eighties or nineties,
it was known as the San Franciscoof the east of whole opening.
Okay?
So I figured, okay, gay community,they're gonna get me no problem,
(19:04):
not improve.
They didn't get it.
Huh?
They didn't get it becausethey like the rest of society.
Look at the transgender community andthey see all these different subgroups,
but they don't know their subgroups.
They don't know that thereare differences between them.
(19:25):
It's not that we don't like eachother or we don't get along with
each other, we just have a differentlifestyle, different way of presenting,
living, and how we see ourselves.
And it's all because I feelgender is more of a continuum.
(19:47):
You mean there's just X and Y chromosomes?
No.
That gender, male and femalenessis, no one's perfectly male,
no one's perfectly female.
It's a spectrum.
I've seen some very good non-binarypeople dress completely androgynously.
(20:07):
You would never know which genderthey were assigned at birth.
Well,
Lynn (20:13):
so let's define non-binary.
Wendy (20:15):
Because that's confusing, right?
They do not subscribe to havingany gender at all or to any gender
orientation or presentation.
Uh, they prefer it to just begender neutral, and I can't say
that I totally understand it.
I totally get it.
I've always felt the way Ifeel, they feel differently.
Lynn (20:39):
So are they bisexual?
What is there a difference between
Wendy (20:43):
sexual and, and there again, you're, you're overlaying.
The trans, trans, the T, the transgenderworld, which is all gender oriented.
You just overlaid sexualorientation on that.
Now, a non-binary person could,in theory be an L, a G, or B.
Lynn (21:05):
Okay, so that's the non-binary is the gender piece, right?
Not the sexual orientation piece.
Wendy (21:11):
Correct.
Lynn (21:12):
Again, okay.
Wendy (21:14):
It's a different
Lynn (21:15):
layer.
Hey.
Okay.
And it, and underneath that,there are subcategories.
Mm-hmm.
Wendy (21:22):
You know, I had a, uh, uh, an acquaintance one
time that was a psychologist.
Took him about two weeks ofconversations and thinking about
it to wrap his head around the factthat a t could be an LAG or a v.
And that somebody who is non-binary,somebody who is gender fluid, somebody
(21:47):
who is a cross-dresser and somebody who istranssexual, could be gay, bi, or lesbian.
So define gender fluid.
Well, you got non-binary.
Then you go into the genderfluid segment of the community.
It also varies by age too.
I was speaking with a group of, uh,students at a community college.
(22:11):
One of the pe one of the students askedme, 'cause they go, oh, uh, there are,
there are mornings when I wake up, Ijust feel feminine and I put on a skirt.
Other days I feel like a guyand I dress more like a guy.
At this point they said.
(22:32):
What I'm finding is people reactto me very weirdly at times, and
I explain to 'em, yes, we have,uh, you know, the societal norms.
So you show up one day, you look,you look more like a girl, and
everybody treats you like a girl.
They react accordingly,pronouns, et cetera.
(22:56):
Well.
The next day you show up differently.
Of course, it's gonna confuse peopleand you have to help them understand
what you are, how you are, andnot in a sense of justifying it.
But what I found through myown experiences, moving into a
(23:17):
heavily gay community and findingthat they didn't quite get me.
The more open I could be explainingmy life and how I felt and how what
my perspective on things is thathelped them understand that, helped
(23:38):
them understand and look at thiswhole transgender community and
see it in a different light that.
Yeah, I understand where these peopleare and these people that come into
town every three months and have these,you know, weekends, uh, cross-dressing
and all the other stuff that they do.
(23:59):
Okay, we get that.
That's whatever.
Lynn (24:02):
So what did it take for you to, to have these conversations with people?
Wendy (24:07):
I threw myself into it.
I looked at it and I said, Ihave no choice but to do this.
I, I want people to understand me.
I don't expect them toreally understand it.
I'm sure you've probably neverlooked in the mirror and said,
oh, I should have been a guy.
Lynn (24:23):
See, now I can identify with that.
No, never.
Never questioned it.
Wendy (24:27):
Exactly.
Whereas somebody like myself always did.
Lynn (24:33):
Yeah.
Wendy (24:34):
That person who's gender fluid does another type of gender fluid person.
They do cross dress and they canchange three, four times a day.
Between male and female appearances.
I knew a person who, uh, wouldgo out on sales calls as a
guy wearing a suit and a tie.
(24:56):
Deep voice the whole bit.
Have a nice sales call with a, with,uh, corporate level people Go back to
the car, in the car chain to a dress,heal, blah, blah, blah, and go to lunch.
Well.
Thought, nothing of it amazed me.
(25:17):
I couldn't do that.
Not because I didn't want to,it just just didn't feel right.
Putting everything on.
Taking everything off.
That's why I never crossed dressed.
I did it for maybe two,three years in my later life.
And gave it up.
Lynn (25:36):
So, but they're just, they're not saying that they wanna be one thing
and their, you know, their body's onething and their brain's something else.
Right.
Their brain is telling them thatthey're both fluid, that's the word.
Right?
Right.
They're
Wendy (25:47):
fluid, they can flip back and forth between them
Lynn (25:50):
and depending on how they're feeling or what the situation is or mm-hmm.
That kind of thing, is that.
Kinda what makes the difference there.
Yep.
Yeah.
Wendy (25:57):
Interesting.
That's exactly it.
And when they do that,the whole persona changes.
Lynn (26:04):
Hmm.
Wendy (26:05):
It's fascinating.
It was actually fun to watch
Lynn (26:09):
what you made me think of when you said the whole persona changes it,
psychological cases where people are threeor four different entities inside them.
Wendy (26:17):
I don't think it's that as much as it is like a gender fluid person like
that, someday that person may decide.
I've been justifying notdoing what Wendy did.
Mm-hmm.
Because I have a wife, I have kids, I have this job.
(26:38):
I can't do that right now.
So I'll just be satisfiedwith just being gender fluid.
Hmm.
I. That's some of the rationalebe behind it actually in the
cross-dressing part of the community.
That also is a case where at some pointin time they may realize that yes,
(27:01):
I really do want to live as a woman.
It's not common, but it happens.
It definitely happens 'cause alot of people that wind up in
my segment of the community.
Do wanna be there.
They just have all theserationales, or what I call excuses.
Mm-hmm.
(27:21):
Why they can't,
Lynn (27:22):
uh, okay.
They're, they're wired differently.
Mm-hmm.
So just be making excuses.
Others actually are this fluid,
Wendy (27:33):
or I, I've met a lot of people who, their wives know they cross dress.
The wife will actually go out todinner with them while they're dressed.
Uh, it's perfectly fine in the family andall of that, and they're happy with that.
And those guys all tell me, noway in hell do I wanna be a woman.
(27:53):
First of all, I'm givingup my male privilege.
No.
Or their penis.
Lynn (27:59):
Exactly.
There things that, that aren't worth it.
Exactly.
So they're seeing how women aretreated and they don't wanna be
treated like that all the time.
Right.
I wonder if they treat womendifferently because of that orientation?
I would think so,
Wendy (28:16):
from what I've seen, yes.
Probably more empathetic.
Lynn (28:20):
Mm-hmm.
Wendy (28:20):
I've had two wives tell me that, uh, it made all the difference
in their relationship becausehe's happy and he's not hiding.
Not a secret anymore.
Lynn (28:33):
And you saw the difference in you when you were congruent and you
were happy, and so that makes sense.
Exactly.
What about intersex?
Wendy (28:46):
Intersex is a whole other, a whole other world.
These are people that actually,when they were born and the doctor
went to go slap them on the butt.
And announced what they were.
The doctor looked and couldn'tmake up his, his or her mind.
Mm-hmm.
(29:07):
It wasn't obvious from, uh, theway the genital area was formed.
I spoke recently with a womanwho, she's fairly, she's pretty
active in the intersex community.
That's its whole separate world.
Part of it is in the past, and Ibelieve it still goes on to a degree.
I'm not sure.
(29:28):
Very early on in, in the infant's life orthe child's life, they'll do surgeries to
make the genital area more congruent withhow the parents are raising the child.
What,
Lynn (29:44):
what
Wendy (29:45):
age are they doing that?
Anywhere from their, uh, singledigits up, but, uh, you know,
like 5, 6, 7, 8 years old.
The child has no input to it.
That's the problem.
Lynn (29:59):
Yeah.
I mean, not, you know, likeyou were saying, at three years
old, you knew you were a girl.
So do these children, I mean,do they have a, a gender sense?
I'm not sure
Wendy (30:11):
if they do or they don't.
I've only known one personpersonally who was born intersex.
Her parents insisted onraising her as a boy.
The genital area was surgically correctedat a very in early childhood to look
(30:32):
like a boy too much as possible.
What happened was, anyway, shedid have a gender sense, but it
was more toward and after puberty.
Okay?
And that's when she knew she was a girl.
That didn't go over well with parentsand she kind of went down the same,
(30:53):
same path that a person like myselfwould go down, you know, telling
your parents, I'm really a girl.
Uh, insisting on being raisedthat way and meeting with all
the parental resistance to that.
Yeah, and it really can messa person up pretty badly.
And that's one of the things thatthis person I met on LinkedIn and
(31:16):
talked with, we had a, we had a nicelong zoom conversation about it.
She said that's what they're workingon is trying to, you know, limit
the, the, the surgical proceduresuntil the person can actually make a
determination of their own and supportingpeople who are going through this.
(31:39):
In my case, I had a perfectlynormal male anatomy.
Most transgender people do haveperfectly normal, whatever that is.
Uh, female or male anatomy, intersexis a whole different thing, okay?
Because of they're born withbasically ambiguous genitals.
Lynn (32:03):
Hmm.
And the chromosomes areprobably different too.
It's probably not just mm-hmm.
Yep.
And I had a nurse tell me too that thereare, you know, different combinations
of chromosomes, that it's not justtraditional male or female, that Exactly.
Chromosomes are showingthat that differentiation.
Wendy (32:25):
I know there's a lot of research going on with this, and that's
why, that's why I just emphasizedthat gender is highly diverse.
It's not one thing or another,and all people can fit somewhere
on that male, female spectrum.
(32:45):
And it's also situational too.
Depending on the situation, youmight shift very heavily into the
masculine world of, of behavior traits,block all of that, depending on the
situation if you're under attack.
Lynn (33:03):
Yes.
Wendy (33:04):
That can trigger different types of behaviors that are more in the
masculine side of the gender spectrum.
Self
Lynn (33:13):
preservation there.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So let's define cisgender.
So we cover that true most.
I don't know if people know that actually
Wendy (33:25):
cisgender was a term that was started up the transgender community.
To differentiate people like mefrom people like you, you have
always been totally alignedwith your gender assigned birth.
Uh, CIS is some Latin term, whichwhen you put it on the front of
(33:48):
cisgender it, it implies you'realigned with your assignment of gender
at birth, I. Most people in societyare not familiar with that term,
cisgender, and find it confusing.
So I've always tried to switch itaround and change it up to born
(34:08):
as, or you accept how you're born,
Lynn (34:12):
okay.
Wendy (34:13):
Uh, as a way of explaining it to people.
But in general, that'swhat cisgender means.
You just totally are in alignmentwith how you were, uh, assigned.
Uh, your gender at birth and peoplealso you use that, use the term gender
and sex in that interchangeably.
(34:34):
Yeah.
And that's what
Lynn (34:34):
I've learned from you today is that those are two different things.
Two different things, gender and sex.
And it's so interesting how youcan layer the, the sex under the
gender, is that what you were saying?
Uh, the sexual education.
Yeah, but sexual
Wendy (34:50):
orientation, the orientation is, is kind of like layered over everything.
Lynn (34:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very interesting.
What other terms did we miss today?
Drag queens.
Oh yeah.
Wendy (35:03):
When I first transitioned and started meeting people in
transgender world and meeting pe, otherpeople in the LGBT type community.
Drag is an art form.
Mm-hmm.
It's performance.
Period.
It has, it has typically been, uh, gay menand occasionally heterosexual men who will
(35:31):
dress in very performative, flamboyant,any particular style that they pick up
on, they'll lip, lip sync music and songs.
They'll pretend to be differentfamous women artists, whatever.
It's art form.
It's, it's, it's something that was donein, largely in the gay world and it's
(35:59):
associated with gay and lesbian life.
Uh, it's become popular among regularpeople to go and see drag performances.
I had some people that toldme, oh, drag queens are part
of the transgender community.
No, they're not.
In fact, I, one of, one of the guys that Iknew who did drag, I, I said to him, does
(36:24):
it upset you or do you have any problemswith people in my community saying that
you're part of the transgender world?
And he looked at me andgoes, it pisses me off.
I'm a gay man.
There's no way in hellI want to be a woman.
And there's no way in hell that my dragperformances implies that I'm a woman.
Lynn (36:51):
Mm-hmm.
Wendy (36:52):
It's performative, period.
Lynn (36:56):
You know, we saw a play a couple of years ago and I can't even remember the
name of the play, but it was a theaterand they had drag performances and one
man was working behind state, heterostraight man, and one of the performers.
Somehow they lost one of the performersand they talked him into dressing in drag,
(37:18):
you know, and, and it was really cute.
But he kept that from his wife.
And then she showed up oneday and he's dressed in drag.
But, you know, it was strictly, I mean,there were the, the gay performers, but
he was not, he was hetero and Right.
And it was, but even just.
(37:38):
Regardless of the storyline, just watchingthose performances, it was so much fun,
you know, just to see, you know, the, thesilly stuff and the, the over the top.
Oh God.
Yeah.
You know, and, andthey're quite good at it.
Very good at it.
Very
Wendy (37:55):
good at it.
Yeah.
And that same guy toll looked atme and he knew I was getting my
surgery soon, and he looked at meand he said, if you ever wanna do
drag, you can't have your surgery.
Oh, you have to havemale parts and be a guy.
(38:16):
Well, okay, so I
Lynn (38:20):
can't do drag.
That's okay.
Can't be drag.
Didn't want to anyway.
Right.
I was looking at these terms thatyou said, which I really appreciate
this list of gender dysphoria.
Gender
Wendy (38:34):
dysphoria.
Again, that is a term from the latterpart of the last century, uh, that has
to do with the feeling that I had, thatthis maleness that I'm supposed to be,
uh, living as, doesn't work for me.
And even to some doctors,the term dysphoria.
(39:00):
It's confusing as to what thatmeans and how that is interpreted by
the person who is experiencing it.
So I actually prefer the, tolook at it as a gender alignment.
That's basically what gender dysphoria is.
You're your, your, uh, gender thatyou feel versus your gender assigned
(39:25):
at birth are out of alignment.
Lynn (39:28):
Mm.
Wendy (39:29):
Okay.
And it causes a lot of, uh,discomfort for some people.
It varies by degree.
Lynn (39:35):
Well, and that's what you were feeling?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
As you were growing up, and we've talked,I think, I don't know if we need to
talk about gender conforming surgery.
That's what you had,
Wendy (39:47):
GCS also in the last century.
They just called it sex change.
Fancy word for it, right?
Yeah.
Basically what that is right now isyou're taking your physical anatomy and
you're changing it so that it fits withhow you see yourself and the alignment
(40:09):
of your being with yourself, and it'sdifferent from hormone treatment.
Hormone therapy is pretty much first stagethat anyone like myself would go through.
Testosterone blockers,block that nasty stuffs.
What the fuck?
Testosterone gives youa lot of aggression.
(40:32):
Mm. Anger can can be a very powerful,very powerful hormone for me.
It.
I could feel it immediately.
Not so much the estrogen,but the testosterone blocker.
Lynn (40:50):
Oh, okay.
Wendy (40:51):
That's another form of me medication.
Uh, Spiro actin is the blockerthat they gave me and um, that has
some side effects long term, soyou don't wanna be on it forever.
And, uh, that's why a lot of people,even if they don't ever plan on having
(41:14):
vagina, plasty, will go with whatis called an orchiectomy, and that's
where they re remove the testicles.
Oh.
Because that's, that's whatproduces the testosterone.
Lynn (41:29):
Mm-hmm.
Wendy (41:30):
And by eliminating them, you don't have to take the blockers anymore.
Lynn (41:35):
Okay,
Wendy (41:36):
so there's quite a few people in the community.
They, they start with that.
Lynn (41:40):
And so those hormones, whether you're going male to female or
female to male, but the change inthe hormones and changes kind of
your I Oh, to think of the word.
Tell me what, it changes your feelings.
It changes.
Oh my God.
Tell, describe that.
'cause I'm getting nowherewith what I'm trying to, it's.
Wendy (42:03):
See you've always had estrogen.
Lynn (42:06):
Yeah.
So I don't know the difference
Wendy (42:08):
exactly.
For me it was like all of a suddenall of these feelings of it, it's
like the sky just opened up for me.
Lynn (42:18):
Hmm.
Wendy (42:19):
It became a bright, sunny, blue sky.
I felt great.
It was within, uh, within thefirst week of being on estrogen.
Oh, that stands Okay.
It literally convinced me thisis exactly what I needed to.
For most people, it is rather,uh, quick and it's rather nice.
(42:41):
Finally, finally, where I used tolive, I went to an endocrinologist.
He was, uh, trained at NYU MedicalSchool in Greenwich Village, uh,
during I guess the eighties ornineties, something like that.
And saw a lot of girls likemyself living there, and at that
(43:03):
time they had no medical care.
They were getting their estrogen outof the country or underground somehow.
It wasn't prescribed by any doctorbecause this wasn't something
that you could go to a doctor for.
It's a psychological conditionthat has no treatment and no cure.
(43:24):
So.
He told me the sad thing he saw duringthat timeframe was not only were they
being arrested by New York City policefor appearing in public as female, which
was against the law in New York state.
Really?
Yep.
(43:45):
Eighties, nineties.
Lynn (43:48):
So even the, the drag queens.
Oh yeah.
They got busted too.
Yeah.
Anybody who was, any man who wasdressed as a woman, as a woman, woman
Wendy (43:59):
could, it could be subject to arrest.
I guess that toned downas the century proceeded.
But in 1969 when Stonewall wasgoing on, mm-hmm It was the drag
queens and the transsexuals whothrew the bricks, the first bricks.
'cause they were pissed off at the cops.
(44:20):
For all the harassment and all the finesand nights in jail and all of that.
So the, the whole feelingof estrogen therapy and
everything is just unbelievable.
And this, uh, doctor that I was seeing,uh, where I used to live, he told me the,
(44:42):
the, the number of patients he sees now.
Who are young.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and are going f to m, female to male.
Really?
Okay.
That, that he told me when I lastsaw him, that that was his largest
population of parents, of, of, of patients
Lynn (45:05):
parents would
Wendy (45:05):
bringing their daughters and, and get prescribed, uh, testosterone therapy.
Lynn (45:12):
Hmm.
And is that the same?
Amount of power is going Oh yeah.
Either way.
So you give them that testosteroneand immediately they're, that
gives a change over feeling that,
Wendy (45:26):
feeling that
Lynn (45:27):
male
Wendy (45:29):
shouldn't, that it's, it's a powerful thing.
It's just difficult to describehow powerful it really is.
It really is.
Well, and that like, I mean,
Lynn (45:38):
that's the first step, right?
Mm-hmm.
Wendy (45:40):
And with the, uh, female to males.
Once they're on testosterone fora while, the voice lowers okay.
It becomes a normal male voice.
They also develop facial hair, beardshair on the arms, and I saw, I went to
(46:03):
the transgender health clinic at thePhiladelphia Convention Center, was
one of my first big public outings.
I hadn't transitioned toliving full-time as Wendy yet.
I hadn't moved into my apartment yet.
I went to conference in Philadelphiawith the first transgender person
(46:28):
that I ever met, and that was, Ithink June of 2015 or May of 2015.
It blew me away.
I had lived my entire lifethinking I was one of maybe a
few people that felt like this.
I walked into the convention center.
(46:48):
There were over 6,000people there that day.
Going from one seminar to another ondifferent aspects of transitioning
and all the medical procedures,there were doctors there.
I am just like totally mind blown.
Lynn (47:07):
You tamped it down for so long.
Oh, good.
Yes.
You know, you told me you didn'teven Google anything about it.
You didn't want to, to feel bad.
You didn't want to, you know?
Mm-hmm.
So in that situation, right,
Wendy (47:23):
I, I saw my friend talking with this group of guys and I kept
on walking, you know, I'm doing mything, I'll let her do her thing.
And that was cool.
And then I go back and I go.
What
this was a group of guys?
Yes.
And they were all f to m's.
(47:48):
That was the first that you were aware of?
Yeah.
And then how, how dramaticthe change was for them.
Yeah.
And the deep voices and everything else.
It was, it was just mind boggling.
Thousands of people andthis and everything.
Lynn (48:09):
Well, and you said too that the muscular chair changes.
Yes.
You know, like you said, for, foryou, excuse me, for you, that changed
Wendy (48:20):
very much so, so I'm sharing that
Lynn (48:21):
F to m that's gonna change too.
Wendy (48:23):
Exactly.
And it does.
Through my friend I've met, I meta couple of other people like.
And actually was able to talkwith them and everything about the
whole experience they went through.
And yes, muscular builds.
There's no way in hell I wouldever look at them and see
anything but a guy, period.
(48:45):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Lynn (48:46):
Fascinating.
Yeah.
And.
Wendy (48:49):
A little aside my, that was my, I said my first big
public outing and everything.
Yeah,
Lynn (48:55):
tell me about that.
Wendy (48:56):
I was actually at this booth filling out a card, registering with
Equality PA to, you know, volunteer ordo something with them and all of that.
I was just overwhelmed by the whole scene.
Thousands of people that up until.
(49:16):
A month earlier I neverwould've known, existed.
Lynn (49:20):
Well, and probably, you know, you wouldn't have recognized someone
as anything other than what they weredressed like, how they were appearing.
Same thing when people look atyou, they wouldn't, they wouldn't
automatically say, oh, she transitioned.
Mm-hmm.
You know, so they're hiding in plain sightwithout the name tag that says I'm trans.
Wendy (49:43):
Right.
Exactly.
Right.
That's one of the things too that Iabsolutely will never do, and a lot of
people in my particular situation don't.
We don't apply that to us.
We don't advertise that.
If I were to meet you at a lunch witha friend or something like that and we
(50:07):
talked, I wouldn't tell you about my past.
It would have to be circumstantiallya correct thing to go and do.
Mm-hmm.
Otherwise, I don't say I'm atrans woman or I, I'm transgender.
I would never say it.
Lynn (50:27):
Well, and if we were having lunch, I wouldn't go
into my medical history either.
Wendy (50:30):
Exactly.
Lynn (50:31):
Right.
Exactly.
You know, unless somethingwere appropriate to the
conversation, but mm-hmm.
That.
You're moving forward, you're establishingthe present and moving forward.
Exactly.
Yeah.
You don't have to advertise.
Wendy (50:47):
And as an aside, the following year I sat at that booth.
You did?
For other people to fill out the cards.
Lynn (50:56):
Wonderful.
Wendy (50:58):
So
Lynn (50:59):
probably with a whole different feeling.
Mm-hmm.
The year before.
Wendy (51:02):
Oh, totally.
Wonderful feeling,
Lynn (51:05):
isn't it?
Wendy (51:06):
Wow.
I went from.
Not knowing anything existedto actually, here I am
Lynn (51:15):
with all these people.
Uhhuh.
Yeah, like-minded, like experiences.
Is anything else in the, the terminologythat you wanna talk about that, are
there any in the, uh, list that Isent you that, uh, stand out to you?
Well, there's some, um, terms to avoid.
(51:36):
Okay.
Which.
You're talking about, you know, trans,not saying you're a trans woman, but
some of these, it says term to avoid.
Mm-hmm.
Born a man, born a woman.
Biologically male, biologically female.
Genetically male, female.
Tell me about why thoseare terms to avoid.
(51:57):
'cause I think I've said that about you.
They, well, some of them, uh, okay.
Wendy (52:02):
Born male.
Well, that implies what?
Is down between my legs.
It doesn't identify what'sbetween my ears, how I think.
That's why they say to avoid them.
Okay?
Because, uh, what you're doing with, withthose terms is you're taking the physical
(52:22):
anatomy part of the, uh, equation andapplying it to the gender, sex, gender.
Very different topics.
Lynn (52:35):
Yes.
Here, it's not the complete picture.
Wendy (52:38):
Right.
Lynn (52:39):
Okay.
So it says to avoid the term transgenderor transgender, and best practice is
transgender people or transgender person.
I would say
Wendy (52:51):
transgender person is probably the more correct and, uh, more acceptable.
I would, I would agree that Iwould say I was born transgender.
Hmm.
That's a, that's the conditionthat I was born with, which is
now in the, uh, diagnostic codesconsidered a medical condition.
(53:15):
Finally, finally, andthat happened in 2012.
We had to wait all that kindfor that to happen up until the,
uh, some point in the seventies.
Being gay was apsychological condition and.
Then they changed it.
It took from that point all theway through to 2012 for people like
(53:41):
myself to be considered a medicalcondition, condition you're born with.
Lynn (53:48):
Well, and and looking at this list when I was talking about terms to avoid,
it's saying Avoid male to female or femaleto male, and better to use transgender
man or transgender woman or person.
You know, again, it'sthe sex, gender, right.
Oversimplification type of thing.
Mm-hmm.
I don't know.
May, maybe we've addressedthat one sufficiently.
(54:10):
I think so.
Okay.
Is there anything else that,that you can think of off the
top of my head at the moment?
No.
And down here, when it's talking aboutterms, other terms to avoid, um, fooling,
posing, pretending, masquerading.
Oh God, yes.
Which is, you know, andyou're talking about passing.
(54:30):
Mm-hmm.
That type of language,
Wendy (54:33):
very negative.
It also implies like, well, one ofthe common scenarios that they like
to throw out publicly to scare societyabout people like myself is Oh yeah,
they're gonna wake up one morning andI'm a, I'm a woman and I'm gonna go
into the ladies' room and molest people.
(54:53):
That never happens.
Lynn (54:55):
No, not unless you're heterosexual male.
Exactly.
Honey mean, come on.
How often have we heard of that happening?
No, and one of the things
Wendy (55:04):
I was talking with, with another girl like my, who lives in a southern
state, this was back in in 2021 orso, we were on Zoom and she's saying
to me she gets very nervous goinginto the women's room because of the
state laws that got passed there.
And she could be arrestedand everything else.
(55:27):
I said, just stop.
Take those thoughts out of your mind.
You blend in as a woman.
Wherever you go, you're living as a woman.
You're working as a woman.
You have a, you have a good job.
Don't worry about it.
Get it out of your mind.
Don't put that energyout into the universe.
(55:49):
Just go in.
What do we do when we gointo the ladies' room?
Lynn (55:53):
We
Wendy (55:53):
go, we go and stall and
Lynn (55:54):
close the door.
Wendy (55:57):
We go Sit down, go there to pee.
You sit down.
And so whether or not that's theother thing when, whether we've
had surgery or not, when we gointo the room, you sit down.
Yeah.
Orient your feet in the pro direction.
(56:19):
And you just do it.
And that's all there is to it.
When you get up and you go out, you'rejust like any other woman there.
You wash your hands and you just leave.
That's it.
Are we going to go in andmolest women and children?
I haven't legs.
That's ridiculous.
Yeah.
(56:39):
But that's all that feeling behindthose words, pretending and.
All of that.
It's just a very negativeway of looking at things.
Yeah.
And the reality is totally different.
Lynn (56:54):
Yes.
And people who are making up these thingsand saying these things are literally
making them up, they don't know.
Exactly.
And that's why it's so importantto have conversations with
you, to, to get this out there.
Mm-hmm.
You know, to get people tounderstand what's going on, to
hear the truth about things.
(57:14):
Hear it from someonewho's been through that.
Right.
Wendy (57:17):
I want people to hear about it from somebody who's lived it.
Yes, absolutely.
And I definitely have.
You definitely have, and actuallyI have no regrets about anything.
I am grateful that Imade it this far in life.
(57:39):
Mm-hmm.
And, uh.
Uh,
Lynn (57:41):
that I've had all these experiences.
Well, and I'm grateful thatyou're sharing those with us.
Wendy, thank you for being here todayand helping us demystify the terminology
around gender and transgender.
This has been such an enlighteningconversation, and we have more in store.
For our audience and to ouraudience, thank you for joining
me and Wendy Cole today.
If you're interested in learning moreabout Wendy, look for her website.
(58:04):
Meet wendy cole.com.
You can also find out moreinformation about demystifying the
transgender journey on our website,the transgender journey.com.
Share this podcast with your curiousand open-minded friends as we try to
educate people and counter all themisinformation and disinformation that's
out there on, especially on socialmedia about the transgender experience.
(58:28):
I'm your host Lynn Murphy, and I'mso grateful you are here today.
Join us next time.
We'll see you then.
Thank you for joining us todayon this episode of Demystifying
the Transgender Journey.
Remember to subscribe so youdon't miss a single episode
of our fascinating interviews.
You can also find more information onour website, the transgender journey.com.
(58:48):
So until next time, staycurious and stay kind.
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