May 2, 2025 • 67 mins
In this episode of 'Demystifying the Transgender Journey,' hosts Lynn Murphy and Wendy Cole converse with Staci, a mother of a transgender daughter who transitioned in her 20s. Staci shares her story of acceptance and love, detailing her daughter's coming out journey, the challenges posed by their Mormon faith, and their family's evolution. The discussion touches on societal misconceptions, the importance of supporting transgender individuals, and the impactful role of gender-affirming care. Staci's insights emphasize listening, loving unconditionally, and self-education for parents and allies. The episode concludes with Staci calling out societal and institutional biases and reaffirming the enduring presence and humanity of transgender people.
Contact Staci at
or on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/mamadragons
Resources:
Great LGBTQ Books:
*A Walk in My Shoes by Ben Schilaty
*But Jesus: A Conversation by Autumn McAlpin
*Without the Mask by Charlie Bird
*Expanding the Borders of Zion by Charlie Bird
*Bridges by Richard Ostler
He/She/They by Schuler Bailar
Whipping Girl by Julia Serano
Both Sides of the Fire Line by Bobbie Scopa
Awkward Silence by Shani E. McIlwain
Better Allies by Karen Catlin
Stonewall by David Carter
Authentic Selves by Peggy Gillespie
The TRANSlist by Timothy Greenfield-Sanders
Gay Rights and the Mormon Church by Gregory A. Prince
Hiding for My Life by Karen Solt
Symptoms of Being Human by Jeff Garvin
Wonderful Podcasts:
In the Den with Mama Dragons https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/in-the-den-with-mama-dragons/id1658677491
*Fight Like a Mother https://www.fightlikeamotherpodcast.com/about-cheryl
*Lift and Love https://www.liftandlove.org/podcast
*Questions from the closet https://www.alloutintheopen.org/
*Listen Learn and Love https://www.listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts
*Faith Matters https://faithmatters.org/lift-and-love-a-conversation-with-allison-dayton/
Mormon Stories https://www.mormonstories.org/episodes/
Helpful Websites:
Mama Dragons – Parachute https://www.mamadragons.org/parachute
The Family acceptance Project https://familyproject.sfsu.edu/
The Trevor Project https://www.thetrevorproject.org/
ACLU with Chase Strangio https://www.aclu.org/bio/chase-strangio
PFLAG https://pflag.org/find-resources/
Encircle https://encircletogether.org/
Human Rights Campaign https://www.hrc.org/our-work/parents-for-transgender-equality-network
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Number one, listen.
(00:02):
Listen to your child how they feel.
Every child's different.
Every experience is going to be different.
Just take the time to listen.
And number two, love your child.
Whatever they have to tellyou, love them unconditionally.
You can help them on thepath that they're on.
Even if they're an adult child,you're still their mom or their
(00:24):
grandma or grandpa, right?
You can help them.
And the last one, wouldjust be educate yourself.
That, that path led me tosuch greater understanding.
Um, I'm so grateful for like Mama Dragons.
They had a Parachute Program that Iwent through and I literally sat at
(00:45):
my computer sobbing as I listened.
It was so beautiful.
It was.
It was meant for allparents of L-G-B-T-Q kids.
What do you really know aboutpeople who were born transgender?
Have you ever met someonewho's transgender?
Well, if you're like me, you'recurious but hesitant to ask questions.
Well, welcome to Demystifying theTransgender Journey in our conversations
(01:08):
with people who were born transgender,their families, friends, and the
professionals who support them.
We ask probing questions and discoverinsightful and educational answers.
You can also find more information onour website, the transgender journey.com.
Now let's get right into today's episode.
Welcome to another edition of Demystifyingthe Transgender Journey, brought to
(01:31):
you by Women who Push the Limits.
We're delighted that you're here today.
We've got a very special guest.
I'm one of your hosts, LynnMurphy, founder of Women Who Push
the Limits, and our other host isWendy Cole, a transition mentor.
Now, we've teamed up to educate peopleabout the transgender experience,
people who were born transgender, theirfamilies, their allies, people who
(01:54):
are around them so that we can answerquestions and educate people and inform
people about what this really is.
So we're telling stories fromreal people about real situations,
and we've got such a greatteam here bebecause Wendy and
I have different experiences.
We're both in our mid seventies.
(02:16):
I'm a cisgender heterosexual womanwho's been married for 48 years.
She's a transgender heterosexual womanwho transitioned when she was 67.
So we come to this podcast withdifferent experiences, and Wendy,
I'm so delighted that you're goingto introduce our guest today, Wendy.
Welcome to our podcast.
I'm so glad that you're here,Staci, and I'm really excited
(02:40):
to have Staci with us today.
She is going to talk with usabout her life as a mother
of a transgender daughter.
I've known Staci for a few years now,and she's been married for 30 years.
She's a fitness instructor, personaltrainer, and health coach, and
(03:02):
she's just a wonderful, wonderfulwoman with five daughters now.
And her middle daughter wasassigned male at birth and came
out to her at age 20, and she'sbeen a Mormon for her entire life.
And on that note, Staci, I'lllet you tell us a little bit more
(03:27):
about yourself before we go on.
Okay.
Thank you Lynn.
Wendy, I'm really glad to be heretoday to talk about my experience
being a mom of a transgender daughter.
I've been on this journeyabout three years now.
My daughter came out to me andit has been both beautiful and
scary all at the same time.
(03:48):
My family has been very supportive.
Her sister's supportive, and Mormonismreally affected how I, I viewed my
child when she first came out to me.
But our family has a lot of fun.
We have a lot of pets between allof us as a house full of pets,
and I have one grandchild and.
(04:08):
I love being a grandma.
Wonderful.
Thank you.
Staci.
I know before this experience bebecauseone of, one of the things that Lynn
and I are trying to accomplish withthis podcast is put information out
there for people who are going throughsimilar situations and for people in
(04:29):
general to change their perspectives.
Now, before your experience with yourdaughter coming out to you at age 20
and being active in the church, how didyou feel about the views held by the LDS
community before your family's experience?
(04:52):
And did you even think about things thatwere going on with the LGBT community
before that experience with your daughter?
And then tell us how that all changed.
That's a good question.
Back in the eighties when I wasa teenager, I remember being told
(05:14):
repeatedly that the gay communitywas under the curse of God with AIDS.
I remember that.
I remember having a friend havea gay brother, and that brother
was kicked out of their home.
I remember very disparagingcomments about L-G-B-T-Q, but then
I didn't think about it again.
(05:34):
I didn't think about it again formany, many years until my daughter
started displaying some behaviorthat made me think she was gay.
And so I started to read andstarted to study and look up
what becauses someone to be gay.
What, what is this community like?
(05:56):
And then my friend's son came outas gay and I went to my fir first
pride parade for him to support him.
I had a sibling come out and as ourfamily accepted that child, they
are such a wonderful human being.
We realized, boy, we need to learn more.
So I started on my journey of learning,but during the time that my child had
(06:18):
been attending seminary, which was aBible study during high school, every
day, I remember her coming home andtelling me that the teacher had told
everyone that gay people were of thedevil, and that if someone was gay,
they were following Satan's plan.
Our church, the Mormon church, myformer church, came out with the
(06:40):
proclamation to the family many yearsago, which basically says that marriages
between a man and a woman and genderis essential to heaven father's plan.
And if you do not follow this,then you are not following God.
So that was really hard.
That's, that's what I learned.
That's how I grew up.
I didn't, I. I didn't believethat a, a gay person was born that
(07:04):
way, and I honestly had no ideaabout the transgender community.
I did not have any experience up untilI heard a podcast about five years
ago, and then the ball started rolling.
Wow.
That's pretty heavy stuff toput on young people, isn't it?
Yeah.
To,
to think that they're of the devil.
(07:25):
Especially when you were raised Mormonand your children were raised Mormon.
Yes.
It's a high demand religion.
It's not just go to church on Sundays,there's activities during the week,
clean the church on Saturdays.
It's, it's a very, very highdemand religion and I honestly
loved it growing up, but mychildren really suffered under it.
(07:45):
I can understand that.
You're part of a community.
Your entire social life is aroundthat entire community and everyone
has the same thoughts and values.
For the most part, correct?
Yes.
We were of one heart and one Mind.
We were Zion.
That's what I had learned growing up.
(08:06):
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Once your child came out to you, howdid Mormonism affect your thoughts
and affect your child coming out?
And tell us what you think ofyour future with LDS and poss.
(08:27):
Is it possible even, I'mcurious about this too.
Is it possible I'm throwinga bunch of questions?
Is it possible even to changethe church from within?
Those are a lot of things.
Uh, I have heard many people saystay in to help the changes, but it's
really hard to stay in when you'rehearing negative things about your
child almost every Sunday, and fromour general authorities as well.
(08:52):
It's very, very challenging.
I would imagine also too, as a woman,
changing from within wouldnot be very possible or even
accepted in that environment.
That is true.
The, the leaders of the churchare, are male cisgendered,
heterosexual men and Yeah.
(09:13):
Women
misogynistic.
Yeah.
I just like
women are valued.
It's just in a different realm or weare valued as mothers and caregivers.
And nurturers.
And
homemakers.
Yes.
Which I was for almost 15 years.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Well, Staci, can you tell us aboutyour daughter's coming out story?
(09:37):
I'm interested to hear, you talkedabout the pride parade that you
attended and that you, this podcast.
Did you have any, any notion that therewas something going on there and what
happened when she came out to you?
Well, I originally, I, I thought she wasgay, like I said, and I just was waiting.
(10:00):
But I believe that our religion,that Mormonism really affected her
ability to come out to me bebecauseshe thought that I would disown her.
She thought that I wouldn't behappy, that I would, you know, be
very, very, very sad bebecause itwould destroy our eternal family.
So she really hesitated to come outand, and I'll be honest, getting back
(10:24):
to Wendy's question, normally when mychildren talk to me, I am very, very open.
But I think she already knew that I hadsome reservations about this bebecause
of how I raised her and how the Mormonchurch had had taught her as well.
I feel like Mormonism actuallyhelped me to, as my child came
(10:47):
out, Mormonism did help me.
And it helped me in that I had alreadyformed a relationship with God.
I already knew that God withyou and answer my prayers.
I already felt that I had theability to help my children and guide
them through personal revelation.
So before my child came out, and thiswas around the time I went to the
(11:10):
Pride parade, I went to our temple andwas fasting and praying to know what
God thought about L-G-B-T-Q people.
And so I prayed and asked Godwhat he thought in our temple.
And what came to my mind was a scripturein first Samuel 16 seven, which basically
says that the Lord doesn't see his man,see a the Lord look up upon the heart.
(11:37):
And I knew in that moment that thatis what I was supposed to do, that I
was supposed to try harder to look atpeople's hearts and what they felt inside
thought their outward appearance and.
That honestly, that personal revelationI received really changed my life
and my, my outlook that I knew thatGod loved the L-G-B-T-Q community.
(11:59):
And
So you were able to separateyour faith from the religion.
It sounds like you still had, and Ithink what I'm hearing you say is you
still have that deep faith mm-hmm.
But not covered in the religion.
Is that correct?
Yes.
Yes.
And I was still very much in the religion.
I was still very much entrenched.
(12:22):
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah, I know that it hindered,it hindered me initially when my
daughter came out to me, it hinderedme in accepting who she was initially.
I did go through.
In what
way?
It hindered me bebecause Iwas told gender is eternal and
that you can't change gender.
And so I was confused.
My beliefs versus whatI have seen in my child.
(12:45):
Mm-hmm.
I knew she was very feminine.
I knew her gentleness and, and, and soit, I was doing the mental gymnastics.
It was very confusing to me how Icould love my child so much and know
how good she was and know her heart.
And then to have this other partof me that was like, this is bad.
This is, this is a, the devil.
(13:07):
So it was, it was very confusing for a,
for a while.
Yeah.
So I interrupted it in there.
Do you feel like telling us her, hercoming out story, the, the actual time
when she talked to you about that?
Yes.
So my daughter came out to meat a time where she was feeling
(13:27):
very, very down, very depressed,and I knew something was wrong.
And at the time I had been listeningto podcasts and reading books, and I
was in the middle of reading a bookcalled A Walk in My Shoes by Ben Sheti.
And I was listening totheir podcast called.
Questions from the closet.
(13:49):
And from that podcast, I was ledto a group called Lift in Love.
And on their podcast I heard alady, her name is Anita, she talked
about gender assigned at birth.
And I'd never heard that phrase before.
So the next day I was with mydaughter talking with her, and
(14:10):
she was expressing great distress.
I could just feel there was alot of distress mentally, or
somehow I didn't know what it was.
And I had asked her already one time,and I guess you're not supposed to ask
this one, I already did if she was gay.
And she said no.
But I asked her, are you unhappywith your gender assigned at birth?
(14:32):
Wow.
And her face showed methat, yes, that was it.
And I just held her and we cried together.
And in that moment, I just knew Iwould never, I would never hurt her.
I would always try justto be a good mom for her.
That's another thing Ilearned outta Mormonism.
(14:52):
You, your highest calling is being a mom.
And so I dove deep into learningabout what it means to be transgender.
And as I did that, it opened myeyes to the reality of all beautiful
people and genders and sexualities.
And it just, it was so enlighteningto, to learn about a community
(15:14):
that I actually knew nothing about.
So you studied a lot about that.
Read about it.
And did you work together with yourdaughter to investigate, to learn things?
Had she investigated, didshe lead you in any of that?
She already knew who she was sinceshe was 11 and just decided she was
(15:34):
going to live the way that she was bornbebecause she wanted to make me happy.
And that is so indicativeof a couple of things.
When babies are born, the doctorassigns the sex right then and
there based on the physical anatomyand the genitals between the legs.
Yeah.
(15:54):
But gender is between ears, not the legs.
Yes.
Wendy And I also think genderis in a person's heart.
And their mind.
And their spirit.
Yeah.
So I've had LDS people and LDS isanother name for Mormonism or the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints.
Those are all the same.
I've had people ask me, well,what do you think her spirit is
(16:15):
going to be in the next life?
And I said, it is going to be femalebebecause it is always female.
And there is some disagreementon that with some people.
And that's okay.
I leave people space to believewhat they're going to believe.
But I know in my heart, I have fivedaughters and I always have daughters.
Yes.
Hmm.
I would agree with that wholeheartedly.
(16:38):
And the fact that she knewfrom that age that you,
I'm
not surprised at that either.
Yeah, that's the sameway Wendy was, right?
Almost
everybody I've ever met in this communityknows at an early age, but it's the
socialization and anything else goingon within the family life, such as the
religious beliefs that really frustratethem from being able to come out and
(17:08):
most people in the LGBT communitycome out as a means of survival.
She was at a point, from what you'redescribing, correct me if I'm wrong,
but she was at a point where she was ather wit's end, how to deal with this.
(17:28):
Yes.
And telling you or andyou educating yourself.
How wonderful is that to go inand figure out assigned at birth?
Bebecause,
Well, it's so interesting thatthat term showed up and then you
turned around and you opened thespace for her to, to tell you this.
(17:49):
Exactly.
I'm a believer, not incoincidence, but that there's
divine order with things and Yes.
That showed up.
Planted the seed that youthen gave her the opening.
Staci, I think that's just beautiful.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
And in my belief structure, it's theuniverse that opened that path for you.
Mm-hmm.
(18:09):
Yeah.
The Holy Spirit or God or theuniverse I, whatever call it,
whatever they want to call it,
it's all energy.
Yes.
I believe that that positive energyfor God came to my mind to help
me to know where to look and thatI also believe God cares so much
about my child that want that.
(18:30):
He wanted me to know, yeah.
That this is what she needs helpwith, and I think it's a miracle.
That our family was able to shift.
Could you tell us a little bit about whoyou admire within the LGBT community,
the moms and people that you've met?
And tell us a bit about that.
(18:50):
I've talked to so many moms, it,they are just amazing people.
I've been so grateful to be able tobe a part of many communities with
Lift and Love and Mama Dragons.
I would say just recently,the two moms that have really
affected me are Lupe Bartholomew.
She is David Archuleta mom, and hemade a song called Hell Together and
(19:13):
that song just touched my heart so muchand her ability to step away from the
Mormon Church also was just such anexample to me and I just love her and
I can't wait to meet her next monthat the Love Conference in Salt Lake.
Wow.
I'm super excited for that.
Another one is Jamie Lee Curtis andshe has a trans daughter, Ruby and.
(19:36):
She just had a little post on, I thinkit was Instagram or somewhere on social
media where she spoke to transgenderparents, the parents of transgender
kids, and basically said, I see you.
I know this is hard.
And her words were so supportivethat I just felt such love for her
(20:01):
and grateful that she could open upand share how she loves her child.
And I felt, I feltsupported and seen by her.
And I think it's hard to really expressthe amount of grief that happens
when you have a transgender child.
(20:23):
And the expectations you had oftheir life have completely changed.
Have shifted.
It is a real shift.
And I think there were many,many nights that I just prayed
to God and just said, why?
Why did you give this to our family?
(20:46):
Why my child?
And I have not got ananswer to that prayer yet.
And I was angry at God initially,
but then I felt like God was calming mysoul and just said, I will guide you.
And so that's what I'm trusting.
I'm trusting that God's going toguide me on the path with my child
(21:09):
and with all my daughters bebecausethey all have challenges and I
want to be the best mom for them.
You got a challenge that youhave risen to and that you're
helping others bebecause of this.
In so many ways I don'tfeel that way, but I.
Staci, you were such an example, such apositive example to people when you hear
(21:32):
of all these other horrible stories,and I know your heart was broken.
Yeah, I can see it.
I can't internalize it, but thegrief that was there, what you were
saying about the expectations thatyou had from your son that now in an
instant just didn't have a time to,to ease into this just instantly.
(21:54):
No, it was one day to thenext, it was the plot twist.
And I would, I would like you torefer to my child as just my child
from the past instead of the gender.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
If you don't want to say daughter,that's fine, but, but just say, bebecause
that, yeah, just that, that feels betterto me bebecause that person that they
(22:15):
were before is, is not there and yetit's, they're still the same person.
It's a very interesting thingto wrap your head around
And that's where people get in troubletrying to understand things bebecause
they can't wrap their head around it.
So Wendy's always used the termaccepting rather than understanding.
(22:36):
Yeah, makes sense.
Yeah.
And instead of saying that being gay isa challenge, you say being gay is you
are experience, you are experiencing samesex attraction or you're experiencing
something instead of it being challenging,even though truly it is challenging,
I'm sure, although I'm not I, but Isee that it is challenging, but it
(23:00):
is also part of our human experience.
It really was.
Do you want to talk about a little abouthow it affected your family and how
they responded to it, how you shifted,
How your friends and other people came,you know, came into your world with that?
How did they feel?
What did you, what were your experiences
(23:21):
Initially, my husband and I keptit to ourselves bebecause we.
We mourned together.
Mm-hmm.
We feel like we lost achild, but no one knew.
It was just my husband andI together told each other,
crying, trying to figure it out.
And that was really hard.
(23:42):
I cannot express how challenging thatis to to see a world around you, to see
our religion, to see politics, to seesociety, not accepting of human beings,
and know that our child is one of them.
Mm-hmm.
And it was super, superchallenging and emotional.
(24:03):
I didn't let my daughter see me cry.
I just went to my closet andprayed and cried alone and just
said, God, please help me to knowwhat to do and be a good mom.
And then my daughter decided shewanted to tell her sisters so.
This is the most beautiful thing.
I just, I have to say, ofcourse there was fear and I was
(24:26):
scared and, and it was hard.
But having a transgender child is oneof the most beautiful experiences of my
life bebecause I have watched her grow.
I have watched her blossom.
I have watched her transformliterally, and, and it is beautiful.
When she came out to her sisters,one of them said, I feel like I'm
(24:50):
just now getting to know who you are.
And they hugged.
And one by one she told her sisters, andthe youngest said, just without a beat.
Cool.
And just gave her a hug.
It was so, it was so touching for myhusband and I to watch her sisters
embrace her, and every one of 'em did,bebecause she is so loved by our family
(25:14):
and always has and always will be.
So they knew her heart too.
Yes.
Isn't that wonderful?
It, it really, that's beautiful.
That's such a beautiful experience,and she's so lucky and so fortunate
to have two parents like you and yourhusband and or wonderful sisters.
(25:41):
I know that bebecause I'vetalked to many, many families.
I've talked to many, many mothers whohave trans children, and if one parent
is against and the other is four orboth, or are against the child, or
there's a sibling who hates transgender,literally that, that is so, so hard
(26:01):
and challenging for their family.
And I've watched it, I've seen it forthe last three years I've been on with
other moms, talking with them, and yes,I feel like she's, she's very lucky,
blessed, and, and we're grateful too.
That support is so.
Impactful, especially at her youngage, even in her early twenties.
(26:23):
It's really important.
It's a difficult enough thing todo, even just to come out to you.
You opened the space for her, but ifshe hadn't had support, and I feel so
fed for the people who don't have thesupport, try and do it on their own.
But so you all were in this together.
Meanwhile, you, it's so interesting,you're talking about grieving.
(26:46):
It's like you lost a son and you gaineda daughter, but there's still that
loss there that it's, I think that'shard for people to, or maybe people
just don't recognize that that happens.
Yes.
I think you said something when we talkedbefore, like if you'd lost a child, the
whole neighborhood and the whole churchwould've been bringing you casserole,
(27:09):
nobody even knew that this was going on.
How difficult was that for you?
It was very challenging to.
To know that I was in a place of greatmorning and I just had to put on a happy
face for everybody else bebecause if theyknew, I figured they would be accepting.
(27:31):
And so I, we didn't talk about it andalso respected my daughter's wishes
that people didn't know at that time.
And when she did come out and say, Hey,you know, I said, can I tell grandma
and grandpa can I talk to my siblings?
By then it had been about six monthsand she said, yeah, I think that's okay.
(27:51):
And I wrote an email to my family.
I talked to my parents and then Iwrote an email to my siblings and I
felt so grateful for their responsesthat they would always love her, and
that she was welcome in their homes.
So I do feel really lucky.
When did she start transitioningsocially, dressing differently?
(28:14):
Bebecause it doesn't soundlike she did that right at the
beginning when she came out.
I'm going to say it wasabout a month later.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
But it was very, very slow.
Hmm.
It was very, very slow.
There was no rushing.
I know a lot of people are saying,oh, kids are turning trans and
they're transitioning so quickand they're having a surgery when
(28:34):
they're 11, and none of that is true.
None of that is true.
Even hormones, there are hormone blockers,but those are completely reversible.
And most people I know,it happens pretty slowly.
They're making sure, right.
They're trying to figure things out too.
So it was all very, very slow.
In fact, she didn't even tellus her name for a year after.
(28:57):
Wow.
She wanted to be sure that this waswhat she wanted and that it was for
sure that she felt right about it, andevery step of the way she was happy.
She felt right about it.
Good.
Yeah.
How did her friends respond?
Friends that she had in schooland like she was in college
then, I'm guessing, right?
(29:17):
Yes.
She was in college herlast year of college.
And I would say some of her friends,she distanced herself from them,
so
that that wasn't an issue.
She knew which ones of her friendswere transphobic and she just
stopped communicating with them.
So the few friends that she had leftshe knew were supportive and, and they
(29:38):
were good, and they asked questionsand she just answered just nice.
And the friends from the church,she had also distanced herself
from all the Mormon kids.
It just was too hard to be friends withthem knowing that they believed that
the devil had her when the devil didn't.
(30:00):
So how did her personality change?
Hmm?
Did you notice anything like that?
I would say she was stillthe same quiet person.
Funny.
She has a very cute sense ofhumor, so I don't feel like her
personality or any of that changed.
She's still who she is, loves the,the things that she loves, and
(30:24):
yeah, I don't feel like she's,she's changed all that much.
I know Wendy talks about her personalitychange when she transitioned, and
so it was interesting to see whetherthat made a difference to her.
I feel that is bebecause she went throughthis transition in her early twenties.
(30:45):
Okay.
Which
is what I had tried to do.
Yeah.
But, and I think it's a loteasier bebecause she didn't
have the life experience andall of the other things already.
She was in college when Ihad surgery at NYUI met.
I met girls who were between likesophomore and junior year who
(31:07):
were checking into the hospitaland having their surgeries and
they transitioned in college.
Huh.
And I think that makes a huge difference.
Okay.
For people.
So she chose her name andtook her time doing that.
Mm-hmm.
How did she feel the, and howdid you feel the first day
(31:29):
she went to class as herself?
I think it was just a beautiful,liberating experience when she
changed her name with the college.
All of her professors weregreat, accepted her new name.
She changed it legally with the courts.
Our family was there to support her.
Yeah, I think it, she loves her name.
(31:49):
We love her name.
It fits in our family so perfectly.
It is just, yeah.
I had a really neat experience withher name actually before she told me.
And I happened to, I was readingthe Bible 'because I'm a,
I'm a very religious person.
I read the Bible every day.
It's part of my, my life in Mormonismand aside from Mormonism and I was
(32:12):
reading a, a chapter about so and sobe got so and so be, got so and so.
And in my mind I was thinking,Ugh, I don't really care who
be got who and these names.
I don't even know who these people are.
And, and then the thought cameto me that names are important.
I just paused for a second,like, huh, names are important.
What am I supposed to learnfrom this chapter I'm reading?
(32:33):
And then I got the feeling that I neededto go and look up the name that my
daughter was possibly going to choose.
She told me she was using thefirst letter of her dead name.
And so I did like a Google search likeyou would if you're having a baby.
And I found about a hundrednames that started with that
letter and wrote 'em on a paper.
(32:54):
And then I circled about 25 of 'em thatI thought were just really pretty names.
And then I put a star next to the top10 like names that I was like, okay,
if she was this name, I would love it.
So I took her that paper later thatday and I said, Hey, I just want to
know if your name is on this list.
(33:15):
And she like looked at itfor like a full minute.
She read the whole a hundred namesor so, and she looked at me and she
said, yeah, and it circled and starred.
And then I knew that what I hadwritten down what I thought was a
beautiful name, she had also chosen.
So it was just kind of like metelling her in a very gentle
(33:37):
way, it's okay to change a name.
I'm, I'm going to love it.
And so that was one ofour positive experiences.
That is such a beautiful, positiveexperience to have your mom actually
support you in changing your nameand being who you really are.
(34:00):
I, I'm just so proud of you.
This is amazing.
Wait,
Coming from you.
But at the time, I reallydidn't know anything real.
I was still in the throes of, you know,
You
had the grief, you hadthe religious experience,
Sorrow.
Joy.
The, all the contrast that was going on.
(34:22):
Yes, and I, and I did have some peoplein my life that I love very much
and are, my dear friends talk verynegatively about transgender people.
And I took the time to listen to thembebecause I needed to hear the other side.
And these, would
Would you care to share some of those?
Without identifying my very goodfriends, one of them sent me emails
(34:45):
that just talked about how, how bad itis to transition and that biology is.
Science and there's no changing genders.
And a lot of the things that shewrote me, I, I looked up and I
studied and I wanted to know whatam I getting myself into, right?
If I support my child?
(35:07):
And the other friend of mine is amother with a trans daughter, and
she continuously gave me videosand things about det transitioning.
And I was like, okay, if Ireally want to know the truth,
I've gotta dig into both sides.
And I did.
And I, and I dug intowhat if, what if, right?
(35:28):
What if this happens?
What if that happens?
What if all of a sudden shewants to transition back?
All of those things.
I looked into it bebecause Iwas not going to be afraid.
I was going to gain more knowledge.
And knowledge is power, and I needed a lotmore knowledge than I had at that time.
So I am actually grateful for those.
(35:50):
I guess situations with my friendsthat were hurtful bebecause it
did help me to grow and learn.
And I have to say that if someone wereto ask me if my daughter was going to
detransition, my answer would be 100% no.
And of the more than dozen transwomen, I have got the privilege of
(36:14):
knowing over the last three years,zero of them are going to detransition.
And so I know that, I knowthat's a thing out there, right?
The 1% that it is possible.
But I also know in my heart thatit is from the pressures of job
and family and, and other thingsthat are pressuring that person
and religion,
(36:34):
A real transgender womandoes not detransition.
So the religion couldplay a part in that too.
Yes.
Yes.
What's going on?
Yeah, it's a, and like you're saying, it'sa small population that's doing that and.
I don't know.
I have no scientific information aboutthis, but it seems like that if you've
got, if you don't have the support offamily, if you don't have the support of
(36:57):
friends, if the religion is telling youthat your eternal soul is whatever, yeah.
Wants forever damned the, the devil'swork, then you know, I can see that
Some people might say, okay, thepressure I knew of living an inauthentic
life is less than the pressure oftrying to live an authentic life.
(37:19):
Does that seem like what you'reexperience, what you've seen?
What I have seen is exactly that.
Or they trudge forward without theirfamilies and they reject their families
bebecause their families rejected themfirst and they move on and they find
other families and people to support them.
The other alternative that I haveseen is they take their lives.
(37:41):
They don't want to live in a worldthat doesn't accept them, or a
family that doesn't accept them.
I know.
So you've got to know that.
Gender affirming care is lifesaving care.
It is lifesaving care for the personand for really for their families.
It was lifesaving for us,
Right.
And LGBT people don't come outbebecause they have courage
(38:07):
and they're doing all of that.
They come out to survive.
Yeah.
It's a survival thing that you reach andthat's what your daughter reached at 20.
She just didn't, couldn't goon anymore as that person.
That wasn't her.
Yes.
Bebecause that was an authentic for her.
(38:30):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Have you met others who have had thepuberty blockers or those types of things?
Your daughter was too old for thatwhen she transitioned and she came out.
Have you met others who have hadthat type of gender affirming care?
I know of the parents, so I don't knowtheir children personally bebecause
I'm on support groups for parents.
(38:52):
Okay.
And so, yeah, I ha I know kids thatare getting puberty blockers and
how lifesaving that is for them.
And then the hormonesdon't start till later on.
And again, that is with the helpof a therapist, a psychiatrist,
it's, it's not as easy as the mediaportrays it to be, to get hormones.
(39:14):
And so that needs to besaid first and foremost.
And also that there's nodanger in these hormones.
Cisgender people takehormones all the time.
So,
And cisgender people havesurgery all the time.
I was watching the news last night,and one of our favorite politicians
shall remain unnamed, made thestatement that it's really bad
(39:38):
in the schools, the teachers.
Are educating the kids onchanging their DR gender.
And your kid can go to the schooland come home as a different person
and even get the surgery and I'm,
yeah, that's, that is,
(39:58):
I wonder
why so many people are so confused andstick to these beliefs that, you know,
were so offensive to your child andto your family, is that's what they're
hearing from politicians as well.
That's obviously not true and not justbebecause it's obvious, but also I was
(40:23):
a substitute teacher for many, manyyears and there is no pushing of any
agenda on any children of any age.
And in fact, it's the opposite.
More of the teachers are not affirming.
At least in my, my town,
Right.?
So I think that it's sad thatpoliticians are able to say things
(40:44):
that are blatantly lies, butthat is, I know that is not true.
Right?
We both know that the medical profession,therapeutic professions are very much
into making sure that this is the rightthing for anyone going through it.
Right.
And there are, there are gates.
(41:05):
Yeah.
And one of the other things that,that the LDS Church promotes is
having a lot of children and thatthat's the job of a mother and a
father and raising the children.
And so some of the comments opposedto gender reaffirming at least surgery
and hormones is that, oh, thesepeople won't be able to have children.
(41:30):
That that's just a horrible thing,not just in the Mormon church, but
apparently that's a horrible thingif parent people don't have children.
I don't have children, so accordingto certain politicians, I'm
not as invested in this countrythat believe the politics aside.
But for you, you know, who were raisedMormon and, and have a lot of children,
(41:52):
what was the impact of knowing thatyour daughter could never have children,
at least biologically have children?
Not that she couldn't adopt,but biologically have children.
First of all, the hormonesdon't always make it so someone
can or cannot have children.
So that needs to be, unlessthere're a surgery, a, a trans
(42:14):
woman, trans man can have a child.
But it, it did cross my mind if shetakes hormones, that there would be a.
The possibility of no biological children.
And that was one of the, the processesof grieving that I had to go through,
that if she never had children, thenthat was, that was going to be okay.
(42:38):
And we talked a lot about it.
Like, do you, do you wantto get, take hormones?
Is this what this might happen?
And, and she said, this is,this is what I need to live, so.
It wasn't a question of children or notchildren, it was a question of living.
And that was a key word for her.
This is what she needs.
(42:58):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And that's something thatpeople don't understand either
is one, you're born this way.
Two, it's not a choice.
And three, she needed to do that.
She needed to do exactly what she did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that is a real disconnect between,I. Most of society and parents like me is
(43:19):
that this is lifesaving care for my child.
Mm-hmm.
It's not just a willy-nillywanting to do something
different, it's, it's lifesaving.
Gender affirming care is lifesaving.
Yeah.
Suicidal ideation continuesthroughout your entire life.
Struggling with this.
It doesn't go away andnone of this goes away.
(43:41):
So I think that's such a beautiful thingthat she actually got the opportunity
to transition and be her authentic self.
Staci, what's her life like now?
It's been a few years sinceshe's transitioned, right?
Would you say three years now?
Yeah.
Yeah.
(44:01):
So what's her life like now?
Good.
Yeah.
Job and apartment and, and friendships.
So it's good.
Nice.
So she's, she's built new friendships.
She happy in her job.
Yeah.
Is she finding acceptance andan acceptance in herself and
(44:24):
how she's doing with that?
Yes.
I think that's going to be an ongoingprocess, honestly, bebecause how many
years she presented male comparedto how many she's presented female,
and so it will just take time.
That's exactly what I was going to say.
I've found that with my own experiences.
(44:47):
It does take time and it continues toevolve, and I think you're going to
see a lot of evolving from her overthe, over the next five to 10 years.
Yeah.
Well, all of my daughters areevolving and changing and growing,
and it's just part of life.
(45:08):
Exactly.
That's the other thing that people don'tunderstand is life is all about change
and possibilities.
And your daughter took, took a reallyprofound step forward in defining her
own life and her own existence and
(45:31):
what you've done in order to support her.
I can just imagine the grievingprocess you went through.
How long did that actually last?
And are you still in some ways grieving orhas that over the last three, four years?
Has that started to settle in or,
(45:52):
That's a good question.
I feel like it was anentire year at least.
It was a full year of the grievingprocess until she was able to change
her name legally and go to school.
And honestly now there is momentsof, of grieving the expectations,
but small moments there ismore celebration than anything.
(46:15):
Like, not just celebration, butlike true joy in our relationship as
mother daughter, and we are so close.
So it is wonderful.
It's like I have five daughtersand we all share clothes.
We all just laugh together.
We're just, I just lovebeing a mom of girls.
(46:35):
Aw, that's beautiful.
Thank you.
It's so wonderful that you support her inthat and that you can be girls together.
Yeah.
That's just such an amazing thing.
You go through these challenges, andI know you, I'm not a Bible scholar
like you are, but you read aboutsome of these things in the Bible,
the forged by fire kind of things.
(46:55):
You go through these challengesand come out on the other side,
and you would never imagine thelife that you have now with her.
Mm-hmm.
That is so different and so close.
Not that you wouldn't have been closewith your son, but does that seem to
ring true for you, that you've gonethrough the fire and that you've
come out different on the other side?
(47:17):
I've actually never considered thatbebecause I was always close to
her, even as a child, very much so.
I remember she used to brushmy hair at night and then ask
for me to pay her a dollar.
I mean, just such cute little thingsI've, I've always felt close to her
and, and I consider even the past.
I consider her my daughter in the pastI just didn't know it, so I refer to
(47:41):
her as my daughter in the past as well.
I've noticed that, that you always referto her as her using female pronouns.
Yeah.
When you're referring to herwhen she was in a different body.
Yeah.
Was that something hard for you,you and your family to use those
pronouns and use her new name?
(48:04):
It actually wasn't that hard.
I know that we did slip up initiallya couple of times, but it wasn't
that hard to switch it since wehad already gone through a name
change with our non-binary nibbling.
And so we were like kindof prepared for for that.
And also we knew it was important to her.
And everything I had read andeverything I had listened to with
(48:26):
podcasts had said that the person'sperspective was, this is who I am,
this is how I want to be referred.
And so I feel like it was a sign of myrespect for my child's personal desires
to, to say the correct name and pronouns.
You all have such love and respectthat, that's just amazing as parents.
(48:48):
And congratulations isn't the rightword, but thank you for being Oh, no.
So, so loving and such respectful parents.
That's amazing.
Lucky, lucky you and lucky family.
Yep.
That, that's also something that,'because I've often said about my
own situation, I was never a man.
(49:12):
I lived as one, butthat was not by choice.
Yeah.
So I, I can just empathize witheverything that she went through and
how she must be feeling at the moment.
It's just wonderful.
Another big issue that we hear aboutin the news, which much ado about
(49:34):
nothing is bathroom situations.
We'd love to hear your takeon that, your stories on that.
What's been your experiencewith Oh my God, bathrooms.
Yeah.
Again, my experience is different andeverybody's going to have a different
experience and I, I recognize thatfirst and foremost, I, I have to
(49:55):
say that the safety of our children.
Young boys and young girls inbathrooms in their homes, in
churches, in schools is imperative.
It is so important that they are safe.
I do feel like sexual assault issomething that we need to look at clearly.
Sex trafficking, all those things areextremely important that we keep our
(50:19):
eyes wide open to what is happening inour society to protect our children.
And that is the bottom line forme, protecting our children.
Now, how I protect my child is differentbebecause she is a trans woman.
So my experience has been, welook for gender neutral bathrooms.
When we're at the mall, when we'retraveling, we, I know where all the gender
(50:42):
neutral bathrooms are in my town and incertain distances that we're traveling.
I think the hardest thing for me wastraveling through Utah and Idaho.
In doing so, we had to use bathroomsthat we were not familiar with the
town or, or where the gender neutralbathrooms were, if there were any at all.
(51:03):
Right?
And so we would stop at rest stops andwe would travel early, early in the
morning to avoid being with other people.
There was one situation where we stoppedat a fast food place and I noticed
there was probably 10 young girlsin line in the restroom, and I just
turned to my daughter and said, thisis not a safe place for us to stop.
(51:24):
And we got in the car and drove somewhereelse bebecause we both wanted to respect
those girls that were standing in line.
And I didn't want my daughterfeeling uncomfortable, and I also
didn't want those young girlsin line feeling uncomfortable.
So I think that a lot of times thenews portrays the bathroom situation
as being dangerous for other people,but it is also dangerous for my child.
(51:48):
It is also dangerous for her tobe in a situation where she is.
Maybe not treated well or maybe she hassomeone looking at her with, with contempt
and I did not want that to happen.
So we were very careful in traveling.
People base their decision quickly onimmediate appearance, whether it's male or
(52:10):
female, bebecause our minds aren't reallycomprehending, like you were talking about
gender neutral or peoplewho look androgynous.
Did your daughter, what was herappearance that concerned you about
going into a woman's restroom?
She does dress very much like a non-binaryperson, so I would not say that my
(52:32):
daughter has ever dressed in, you know,the dresses, heels, makeup, none of that.
It's, it's more of a very casual,I know who I am and I don't need to
dress up and that's perfectly fine.
So yeah, she doesn't maybe pass forthe way that a lot of women pass.
(52:53):
And I think that makesher more of a target.
And that's so sad bebecause it is,people are trying to define women
and men by their outward appearance.
And if you don't look like Barbie andKen then, then you know, who are you
and how do we figure out as if peoplereally need to know We don't need, right.
(53:14):
Are we having someone checking peopleat the bathroom to check their shorts?
It's, it's crazy.
You go into a stall, you close thestall, you use the stall, you come
out, you wash your hands, and you go,
You just have to make sure your feetare oriented in the right direction.
I just got that.
I, I do think it's very interesting.
It's dehumanizing to make a personfeel like they can't use the
(53:38):
restroom or that they're not safe.
Right.
Or to make up this fearful thingthat someone else isn't going to
be safe if you are in the restroom.
It is, I. It is unkindand it is dehumanizing.
I will say that when I was in Seattlea couple months ago, I went to, I
think it was a Starbucks downtown, andthere were like, I think there were six
(54:00):
or eight bathrooms, all single stallbathrooms, all gender neutral, and then
there was one long sink for everybody.
I have never felt so safe in abathroom bebecause every bathroom
was gender neutral and it wasthe most amazing feeling that all
people, all humans can be safe.
(54:21):
We,
we are, our bathroom situation needsto change somehow so that there are
more single bathrooms for eitherfamilies or gender neutral humans.
So she, does she feel unsafe inbathrooms when you're not there?
Does she have another womango in the bathroom with her
or does she fine on her own?
(54:44):
No.
Where she lives.
She's, she's fine there.
So a lot of gender.
Yeah.
Good.
All right.
Bebecause that seems likea ridiculous issue, like I
said, much a do about nothing.
Yeah.
In in general, that's been my experience.
And talking with other people,we're just going to the bathroom
to take care of your Your needs.
(55:08):
And needs.
Many needs.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do we want to talk about thenewest, whatever it's called,
proclamation that the Mormon Policy.
Policy.
Policy.
Oh yeah.
So do we want to talk about the newestpolicy that the Mormon Church put
(55:28):
out recently and how that impactspeople who were born transgender?
Yeah.
It's impacted a lot of people.
Well, number wise no, but, but
the people I
know.
Yeah.
So how did you react whenyou saw that new policy?
When I saw the new policy withthe LDS church, I, I was shocked.
(55:53):
I couldn't believe that they wouldput something out that they claimed
was ministering, when really it wasdehumanizing telling transgender people
they had to go to the classrooms of theirgender assigned at birth, the restrooms,
unless someone was guarding the door,it was, it wasn't Christ-like, it wasn't
(56:16):
what I believe as far as policies go.
And it wasn't, it wasn'ta, a human policy.
It was a, it was a manmade policy.
And when I realized that, I knewin my heart that this was, this was
not God's word, then I felt likeit was important that I removed
(56:37):
my name from the LDS church.
And not be a part of it, which is reallyhurtful to, I know, to my family, but it
was important to me to remove my name,
Not being Mormon, I don't understandthat process or that significance.
But you're saying that that was quitea significant step that you took to
(56:59):
remove your name from the church?
From the church roles.
Is that what that is?
Yes.
And they, they negate your baptismand they negate your temple marriage.
So that is supposed to be hurtful to you.
But my beliefs have changedin that God knows my heart and
therefore those papers don't matter.
(57:22):
Mm-hmm.
Bebecause God where I stand and that Iam still putting God first in my life.
Well, I see that you arestill a very spiritual person.
I. How do you think your spiritualityis going to evolve now that
you've separated from the church?
Do you think you'll look foranother church more accepting or
(57:46):
basically do what I do my own thing?
I think part of, part of it, doing yourown thing is really important bebecause
you grow into what is important to you.
So I still pray and hate and readmy scriptures, things that I really
loved about Mor Mormonism, I've kept
Good for you.
I do attend a new
church.
I attend a new church that is genderand L-G-B-T-Q affirming, and my daughter
(58:09):
has attended with me a couple timesand a very, very nice congregation.
I would say my spirituality haschanged to accept all religions.
Last night we read a Buddhistprayer before dinner, and so we're
just getting truth in all placesaround the world instead of just one
(58:30):
religion and one path and one belief.
We are seeing truth everywhereand it is so beautiful.
And the people that I thought were,you know of the wrong religion, I
don't feel that way about them anymore.
I say, what can you teach me?
What, what can I learn from you?
(58:50):
We went to a Jewishsynagogue two weeks ago.
It was so beautiful.
We sang in Hebrew.
It was so beautiful.
It was, it was spiritual.
And so I still feel like there aremany, many places to find truth
outside of religion and especiallyfor me outside of Mormonism.
(59:11):
That is so beautiful, Staci.
And it sounds like your relationshipwith God is just growing and
deepening and, and not only justwith God, but with the whole world,
but with people and all of humanity.
All of humanity.
Yeah.
The acceptance and, and Ilove what you say that you're
looking for truth everywhere.
(59:32):
Is the truth.
And there's so much fear now.
People are trying to stokethe fear to separate us.
And what you're doing is investigating andbringing people together as human beings.
Yes.
Lovely.
Thank you for doing that.
And Wendy, did you have anyother questions now before we
ask her if she's got any finalwords, talking about resources
(59:57):
Would you care to say anything toother moms or parents or grandparents?
Any advice for them?
Yes, for sure.
Talking with other parents andgrandparents, it's number one, listen.
Listen to your child, how they feel.
(01:00:17):
Every child's different.
Every experience is going to be different.
Just take the time to listen.
And number two, love your child.
Whatever they have to tell you.
Love them unconditionally.
You can help them on thepath that they're on.
Even if they're an adultchild, you're still their mom
or their grandma or grandpa.
(01:00:38):
You can help them.
And the last one wouldJesus, be educate yourself.
That that path led me tosuch greater understanding.
I'm so grateful for like Mama Dragons.
They had a parachute program that Iwent through and I literally sat in
my computer sobbing as I listened.
(01:01:01):
It was so beautiful.
It was.
It was meant for allparents of L-G-B-T-Q Kids.
Beautiful program.
I had a coach with Lift and Love.
She helped me in my darkest hours.
To just bring to light the, thefeelings and the fear that I had.
And, and you, Wendy, I've beenon coaching calls with you.
(01:01:22):
I've loved it.
I have felt like I can express my, myfears, my hopes, my doubts, my joys.
And you completely understand.
So in the education also needs to comehelp for your child, either therapy or
coaching or psychiatry or something,bebecause you cannot do it alone.
(01:01:44):
And that speaks for the parents too.
Get help for your child, get help for you.
And take care of yourself.
One thing you said to me before wasbelieve your child when they tell you that
they are a different gender, when theytell you what's going on, believe them.
Yeah.
(01:02:05):
Yeah.
That is
very important.
They come out to you to survive,but it takes a lot of courage.
To actually tell somebody else,especially a parent, they love
so deeply that I'm not your son.
I'm your daughter.
I will say I felt so privileged tobe the first person and I have heard
(01:02:29):
other moms talk about how their childtold their friends first, or their
teacher at school first or or someother situation and how hurt they were.
And again, every child'sdifferent in where they feel
safe and who they'll come out to.
Whether that's gay or transgenderor you know, anything that they're
(01:02:49):
holding inside that is in their mindshurting them, that's a secret for them.
I feel very privileged that mydaughter and I are so close.
Staci, is there any way people can reachyou if they have questions, if they want
advice or help or anything like that?
Are you willing to connect with peoplethat have listened to this podcast.
(01:03:14):
I would love to, I, you canput my email in the show notes.
And also I'm on the Mama Dragons Facebook.
I'm actually not on there veryoften, but you can find me
on there with Mama Dragons.
So we'll get those links from you.
We'll put those in the show notes.
Okay.
Thank you for doing that.
Because your approach to your daughter,just to the world is so outstanding
(01:03:37):
and it just, it shows that thereare people like you in the world who
under, well, not that they understand.
Wendy keeps correcting me on that,that it's not that you understand the
situation, but you accept that you loveyour child and what a beautiful gift that
you've given to her and to your otherchildren and really to your friends.
I think it's a gift to some ofthe people in your church who have
(01:03:59):
known you for all these years.
Now see the change there, there may be,there's, there's resistance there, but
there may be something going on there.
Maybe you've planted a seed that they go,
Hmm,
okay, Staci is doing this, and werespected her and now we're making
out that the devil's got her.
But maybe there's something there.
(01:04:20):
So I'm hoping that all those seeds thatyou've been planting, that you, just
by being who you are and taking careof your daughter and your family, the
way you do that, that will help educatepeople, help them see this perspective.
So we thank you so much for doingthis today, for joining us, and I
know our audience has enjoyed this.
(01:04:42):
Staci, any final words?
Well, I just want to say thankyou for letting me share some
of my stories and experiences.
I, I really would like to, to callout the politicians and the religious
leaders, including my own and society ingeneral, and the movie makers of the past.
Who have marginalizedthis group of people.
(01:05:04):
And because as a mom I was not prepared.
All the ill spoken of the transgendercommunity is, it's, it's not true.
It's unfair.
And that trans people have always existedand they will always exist, and they're
good, kind, smart, resilient people.
(01:05:26):
I know they are bebecause thisis my child and she is beautiful
and wonderful and I love her.
Hmm.
Thank you Staci.
Thank you
Wendy, any last comments?
Thank you so much, Staci.
You're so inspiring and yes,I, I'm hopeful that this, your
(01:05:47):
conversation with us today will helpothers change their perspectives
and prevent somebody else from.
Doing something more harmfulto their child that they don't
need to do except their child.
I know the parents who arenot accepting their children.
I know them.
(01:06:08):
Mm-hmm.
I've, I've seen them, so it's hard.
Yep.
Again, thank you Staci, so much for today.
Thank you.
To our audience, I'm LynnMurphy, and this is Wendy Cole.
We've been co-hosting today in thispodcast demystifying the Transgender
(01:06:28):
journey, where we're educatingpeople about the experiences of
people who are born transgender.
Share this out, subscribe like us.
Leave a comment, we'llcomment back to you.
We would love to hear your comments.
We would love to hear.
You have to say, and we will put Staci'sinformation in the show notes today.
So thank you.
Tune in next time bebecause we'll haveanother very special guest and we would
(01:06:51):
like to continue to educate you onDemystifying the Transgender Journey
Thank you for joining us todayon this episode of Demystifying
the Transgender Journey.
Remember to subscribe so youdon't miss a single episode
of our fascinating interviews.
You can also find more information onour website, the transgender journey.com.
So until next time, staycurious and stay kind.
Number one, listen.
(00:02):
Listen to your child how they feel.
Every child's different.
Every experience is going to be different.
Just take the time to listen.
And number two, love your child.
Whatever they have to tellyou, love them unconditionally.
You can help them on thepath that they're on.
Even if they're an adult child,you're still their mom or their
(00:24):
grandma or grandpa, right?
You can help them.
And the last one, wouldjust be educate yourself.
That, that path led me tosuch greater understanding.
Um, I'm so grateful for like Mama Dragons.
They had a Parachute Program that Iwent through and I literally sat at
(00:45):
my computer sobbing as I listened.
It was so beautiful.
It was.
It was meant for allparents of L-G-B-T-Q kids.
What do you really know aboutpeople who were born transgender?
Have you ever met someonewho's transgender?
Well, if you're like me, you'recurious but hesitant to ask questions.
Well, welcome to Demystifying theTransgender Journey in our conversations
(01:08):
with people who were born transgender,their families, friends, and the
professionals who support them.
We ask probing questions and discoverinsightful and educational answers.
You can also find more information onour website, the transgender journey.com.
Now let's get right into today's episode.
Welcome to another edition of Demystifyingthe Transgender Journey, brought to
(01:31):
you by Women who Push the Limits.
We're delighted that you're here today.
We've got a very special guest.
I'm one of your hosts, LynnMurphy, founder of Women Who Push
the Limits, and our other host isWendy Cole, a transition mentor.
Now, we've teamed up to educate peopleabout the transgender experience,
people who were born transgender, theirfamilies, their allies, people who
(01:54):
are around them so that we can answerquestions and educate people and inform
people about what this really is.
So we're telling stories fromreal people about real situations,
and we've got such a greatteam here bebecause Wendy and
I have different experiences.
We're both in our mid seventies.
(02:16):
I'm a cisgender heterosexual womanwho's been married for 48 years.
She's a transgender heterosexual womanwho transitioned when she was 67.
So we come to this podcast withdifferent experiences, and Wendy,
I'm so delighted that you're goingto introduce our guest today, Wendy.
Welcome to our podcast.
I'm so glad that you're here,Staci, and I'm really excited
(02:40):
to have Staci with us today.
She is going to talk with usabout her life as a mother
of a transgender daughter.
I've known Staci for a few years now,and she's been married for 30 years.
She's a fitness instructor, personaltrainer, and health coach, and
(03:02):
she's just a wonderful, wonderfulwoman with five daughters now.
And her middle daughter wasassigned male at birth and came
out to her at age 20, and she'sbeen a Mormon for her entire life.
And on that note, Staci, I'lllet you tell us a little bit more
(03:27):
about yourself before we go on.
Okay.
Thank you Lynn.
Wendy, I'm really glad to be heretoday to talk about my experience
being a mom of a transgender daughter.
I've been on this journeyabout three years now.
My daughter came out to me andit has been both beautiful and
scary all at the same time.
(03:48):
My family has been very supportive.
Her sister's supportive, and Mormonismreally affected how I, I viewed my
child when she first came out to me.
But our family has a lot of fun.
We have a lot of pets between allof us as a house full of pets,
and I have one grandchild and.
(04:08):
I love being a grandma.
Wonderful.
Thank you.
Staci.
I know before this experience bebecauseone of, one of the things that Lynn
and I are trying to accomplish withthis podcast is put information out
there for people who are going throughsimilar situations and for people in
(04:29):
general to change their perspectives.
Now, before your experience with yourdaughter coming out to you at age 20
and being active in the church, how didyou feel about the views held by the LDS
community before your family's experience?
(04:52):
And did you even think about things thatwere going on with the LGBT community
before that experience with your daughter?
And then tell us how that all changed.
That's a good question.
Back in the eighties when I wasa teenager, I remember being told
(05:14):
repeatedly that the gay communitywas under the curse of God with AIDS.
I remember that.
I remember having a friend havea gay brother, and that brother
was kicked out of their home.
I remember very disparagingcomments about L-G-B-T-Q, but then
I didn't think about it again.
(05:34):
I didn't think about it again formany, many years until my daughter
started displaying some behaviorthat made me think she was gay.
And so I started to read andstarted to study and look up
what becauses someone to be gay.
What, what is this community like?
(05:56):
And then my friend's son came outas gay and I went to my fir first
pride parade for him to support him.
I had a sibling come out and as ourfamily accepted that child, they
are such a wonderful human being.
We realized, boy, we need to learn more.
So I started on my journey of learning,but during the time that my child had
(06:18):
been attending seminary, which was aBible study during high school, every
day, I remember her coming home andtelling me that the teacher had told
everyone that gay people were of thedevil, and that if someone was gay,
they were following Satan's plan.
Our church, the Mormon church, myformer church, came out with the
(06:40):
proclamation to the family many yearsago, which basically says that marriages
between a man and a woman and genderis essential to heaven father's plan.
And if you do not follow this,then you are not following God.
So that was really hard.
That's, that's what I learned.
That's how I grew up.
I didn't, I. I didn't believethat a, a gay person was born that
(07:04):
way, and I honestly had no ideaabout the transgender community.
I did not have any experience up untilI heard a podcast about five years
ago, and then the ball started rolling.
Wow.
That's pretty heavy stuff toput on young people, isn't it?
Yeah.
To,
to think that they're of the devil.
(07:25):
Especially when you were raised Mormonand your children were raised Mormon.
Yes.
It's a high demand religion.
It's not just go to church on Sundays,there's activities during the week,
clean the church on Saturdays.
It's, it's a very, very highdemand religion and I honestly
loved it growing up, but mychildren really suffered under it.
(07:45):
I can understand that.
You're part of a community.
Your entire social life is aroundthat entire community and everyone
has the same thoughts and values.
For the most part, correct?
Yes.
We were of one heart and one Mind.
We were Zion.
That's what I had learned growing up.
(08:06):
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Once your child came out to you, howdid Mormonism affect your thoughts
and affect your child coming out?
And tell us what you think ofyour future with LDS and poss.
(08:27):
Is it possible even, I'mcurious about this too.
Is it possible I'm throwinga bunch of questions?
Is it possible even to changethe church from within?
Those are a lot of things.
Uh, I have heard many people saystay in to help the changes, but it's
really hard to stay in when you'rehearing negative things about your
child almost every Sunday, and fromour general authorities as well.
(08:52):
It's very, very challenging.
I would imagine also too, as a woman,
changing from within wouldnot be very possible or even
accepted in that environment.
That is true.
The, the leaders of the churchare, are male cisgendered,
heterosexual men and Yeah.
(09:13):
Women
misogynistic.
Yeah.
I just like
women are valued.
It's just in a different realm or weare valued as mothers and caregivers.
And nurturers.
And
homemakers.
Yes.
Which I was for almost 15 years.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Well, Staci, can you tell us aboutyour daughter's coming out story?
(09:37):
I'm interested to hear, you talkedabout the pride parade that you
attended and that you, this podcast.
Did you have any, any notion that therewas something going on there and what
happened when she came out to you?
Well, I originally, I, I thought she wasgay, like I said, and I just was waiting.
(10:00):
But I believe that our religion,that Mormonism really affected her
ability to come out to me bebecauseshe thought that I would disown her.
She thought that I wouldn't behappy, that I would, you know, be
very, very, very sad bebecause itwould destroy our eternal family.
So she really hesitated to come outand, and I'll be honest, getting back
(10:24):
to Wendy's question, normally when mychildren talk to me, I am very, very open.
But I think she already knew that I hadsome reservations about this bebecause
of how I raised her and how the Mormonchurch had had taught her as well.
I feel like Mormonism actuallyhelped me to, as my child came
(10:47):
out, Mormonism did help me.
And it helped me in that I had alreadyformed a relationship with God.
I already knew that God withyou and answer my prayers.
I already felt that I had theability to help my children and guide
them through personal revelation.
So before my child came out, and thiswas around the time I went to the
(11:10):
Pride parade, I went to our temple andwas fasting and praying to know what
God thought about L-G-B-T-Q people.
And so I prayed and asked Godwhat he thought in our temple.
And what came to my mind was a scripturein first Samuel 16 seven, which basically
says that the Lord doesn't see his man,see a the Lord look up upon the heart.
(11:37):
And I knew in that moment that thatis what I was supposed to do, that I
was supposed to try harder to look atpeople's hearts and what they felt inside
thought their outward appearance and.
That honestly, that personal revelationI received really changed my life
and my, my outlook that I knew thatGod loved the L-G-B-T-Q community.
(11:59):
And
So you were able to separateyour faith from the religion.
It sounds like you still had, and Ithink what I'm hearing you say is you
still have that deep faith mm-hmm.
But not covered in the religion.
Is that correct?
Yes.
Yes.
And I was still very much in the religion.
I was still very much entrenched.
(12:22):
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah, I know that it hindered,it hindered me initially when my
daughter came out to me, it hinderedme in accepting who she was initially.
I did go through.
In what
way?
It hindered me bebecause Iwas told gender is eternal and
that you can't change gender.
And so I was confused.
My beliefs versus whatI have seen in my child.
(12:45):
Mm-hmm.
I knew she was very feminine.
I knew her gentleness and, and, and soit, I was doing the mental gymnastics.
It was very confusing to me how Icould love my child so much and know
how good she was and know her heart.
And then to have this other partof me that was like, this is bad.
This is, this is a, the devil.
(13:07):
So it was, it was very confusing for a,
for a while.
Yeah.
So I interrupted it in there.
Do you feel like telling us her, hercoming out story, the, the actual time
when she talked to you about that?
Yes.
So my daughter came out to meat a time where she was feeling
(13:27):
very, very down, very depressed,and I knew something was wrong.
And at the time I had been listeningto podcasts and reading books, and I
was in the middle of reading a bookcalled A Walk in My Shoes by Ben Sheti.
And I was listening totheir podcast called.
Questions from the closet.
(13:49):
And from that podcast, I was ledto a group called Lift in Love.
And on their podcast I heard alady, her name is Anita, she talked
about gender assigned at birth.
And I'd never heard that phrase before.
So the next day I was with mydaughter talking with her, and
(14:10):
she was expressing great distress.
I could just feel there was alot of distress mentally, or
somehow I didn't know what it was.
And I had asked her already one time,and I guess you're not supposed to ask
this one, I already did if she was gay.
And she said no.
But I asked her, are you unhappywith your gender assigned at birth?
(14:32):
Wow.
And her face showed methat, yes, that was it.
And I just held her and we cried together.
And in that moment, I just knew Iwould never, I would never hurt her.
I would always try justto be a good mom for her.
That's another thing Ilearned outta Mormonism.
(14:52):
You, your highest calling is being a mom.
And so I dove deep into learningabout what it means to be transgender.
And as I did that, it opened myeyes to the reality of all beautiful
people and genders and sexualities.
And it just, it was so enlighteningto, to learn about a community
(15:14):
that I actually knew nothing about.
So you studied a lot about that.
Read about it.
And did you work together with yourdaughter to investigate, to learn things?
Had she investigated, didshe lead you in any of that?
She already knew who she was sinceshe was 11 and just decided she was
(15:34):
going to live the way that she was bornbebecause she wanted to make me happy.
And that is so indicativeof a couple of things.
When babies are born, the doctorassigns the sex right then and
there based on the physical anatomyand the genitals between the legs.
Yeah.
(15:54):
But gender is between ears, not the legs.
Yes.
Wendy And I also think genderis in a person's heart.
And their mind.
And their spirit.
Yeah.
So I've had LDS people and LDS isanother name for Mormonism or the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints.
Those are all the same.
I've had people ask me, well,what do you think her spirit is
(16:15):
going to be in the next life?
And I said, it is going to be femalebebecause it is always female.
And there is some disagreementon that with some people.
And that's okay.
I leave people space to believewhat they're going to believe.
But I know in my heart, I have fivedaughters and I always have daughters.
Yes.
Hmm.
I would agree with that wholeheartedly.
(16:38):
And the fact that she knewfrom that age that you,
I'm
not surprised at that either.
Yeah, that's the sameway Wendy was, right?
Almost
everybody I've ever met in this communityknows at an early age, but it's the
socialization and anything else goingon within the family life, such as the
religious beliefs that really frustratethem from being able to come out and
(17:08):
most people in the LGBT communitycome out as a means of survival.
She was at a point, from what you'redescribing, correct me if I'm wrong,
but she was at a point where she was ather wit's end, how to deal with this.
(17:28):
Yes.
And telling you or andyou educating yourself.
How wonderful is that to go inand figure out assigned at birth?
Bebecause,
Well, it's so interesting thatthat term showed up and then you
turned around and you opened thespace for her to, to tell you this.
(17:49):
Exactly.
I'm a believer, not incoincidence, but that there's
divine order with things and Yes.
That showed up.
Planted the seed that youthen gave her the opening.
Staci, I think that's just beautiful.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
And in my belief structure, it's theuniverse that opened that path for you.
Mm-hmm.
(18:09):
Yeah.
The Holy Spirit or God or theuniverse I, whatever call it,
whatever they want to call it,
it's all energy.
Yes.
I believe that that positive energyfor God came to my mind to help
me to know where to look and thatI also believe God cares so much
about my child that want that.
(18:30):
He wanted me to know, yeah.
That this is what she needs helpwith, and I think it's a miracle.
That our family was able to shift.
Could you tell us a little bit about whoyou admire within the LGBT community,
the moms and people that you've met?
And tell us a bit about that.
(18:50):
I've talked to so many moms, it,they are just amazing people.
I've been so grateful to be able tobe a part of many communities with
Lift and Love and Mama Dragons.
I would say just recently,the two moms that have really
affected me are Lupe Bartholomew.
She is David Archuleta mom, and hemade a song called Hell Together and
(19:13):
that song just touched my heart so muchand her ability to step away from the
Mormon Church also was just such anexample to me and I just love her and
I can't wait to meet her next monthat the Love Conference in Salt Lake.
Wow.
I'm super excited for that.
Another one is Jamie Lee Curtis andshe has a trans daughter, Ruby and.
(19:36):
She just had a little post on, I thinkit was Instagram or somewhere on social
media where she spoke to transgenderparents, the parents of transgender
kids, and basically said, I see you.
I know this is hard.
And her words were so supportivethat I just felt such love for her
(20:01):
and grateful that she could open upand share how she loves her child.
And I felt, I feltsupported and seen by her.
And I think it's hard to really expressthe amount of grief that happens
when you have a transgender child.
(20:23):
And the expectations you had oftheir life have completely changed.
Have shifted.
It is a real shift.
And I think there were many,many nights that I just prayed
to God and just said, why?
Why did you give this to our family?
(20:46):
Why my child?
And I have not got ananswer to that prayer yet.
And I was angry at God initially,
but then I felt like God was calming mysoul and just said, I will guide you.
And so that's what I'm trusting.
I'm trusting that God's going toguide me on the path with my child
(21:09):
and with all my daughters bebecausethey all have challenges and I
want to be the best mom for them.
You got a challenge that youhave risen to and that you're
helping others bebecause of this.
In so many ways I don'tfeel that way, but I.
Staci, you were such an example, such apositive example to people when you hear
(21:32):
of all these other horrible stories,and I know your heart was broken.
Yeah, I can see it.
I can't internalize it, but thegrief that was there, what you were
saying about the expectations thatyou had from your son that now in an
instant just didn't have a time to,to ease into this just instantly.
(21:54):
No, it was one day to thenext, it was the plot twist.
And I would, I would like you torefer to my child as just my child
from the past instead of the gender.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
If you don't want to say daughter,that's fine, but, but just say, bebecause
that, yeah, just that, that feels betterto me bebecause that person that they
(22:15):
were before is, is not there and yetit's, they're still the same person.
It's a very interesting thingto wrap your head around
And that's where people get in troubletrying to understand things bebecause
they can't wrap their head around it.
So Wendy's always used the termaccepting rather than understanding.
(22:36):
Yeah, makes sense.
Yeah.
And instead of saying that being gay isa challenge, you say being gay is you
are experience, you are experiencing samesex attraction or you're experiencing
something instead of it being challenging,even though truly it is challenging,
I'm sure, although I'm not I, but Isee that it is challenging, but it
(23:00):
is also part of our human experience.
It really was.
Do you want to talk about a little abouthow it affected your family and how
they responded to it, how you shifted,
How your friends and other people came,you know, came into your world with that?
How did they feel?
What did you, what were your experiences
(23:21):
Initially, my husband and I keptit to ourselves bebecause we.
We mourned together.
Mm-hmm.
We feel like we lost achild, but no one knew.
It was just my husband andI together told each other,
crying, trying to figure it out.
And that was really hard.
(23:42):
I cannot express how challenging thatis to to see a world around you, to see
our religion, to see politics, to seesociety, not accepting of human beings,
and know that our child is one of them.
Mm-hmm.
And it was super, superchallenging and emotional.
(24:03):
I didn't let my daughter see me cry.
I just went to my closet andprayed and cried alone and just
said, God, please help me to knowwhat to do and be a good mom.
And then my daughter decided shewanted to tell her sisters so.
This is the most beautiful thing.
I just, I have to say, ofcourse there was fear and I was
(24:26):
scared and, and it was hard.
But having a transgender child is oneof the most beautiful experiences of my
life bebecause I have watched her grow.
I have watched her blossom.
I have watched her transformliterally, and, and it is beautiful.
When she came out to her sisters,one of them said, I feel like I'm
(24:50):
just now getting to know who you are.
And they hugged.
And one by one she told her sisters, andthe youngest said, just without a beat.
Cool.
And just gave her a hug.
It was so, it was so touching for myhusband and I to watch her sisters
embrace her, and every one of 'em did,bebecause she is so loved by our family
(25:14):
and always has and always will be.
So they knew her heart too.
Yes.
Isn't that wonderful?
It, it really, that's beautiful.
That's such a beautiful experience,and she's so lucky and so fortunate
to have two parents like you and yourhusband and or wonderful sisters.
(25:41):
I know that bebecause I'vetalked to many, many families.
I've talked to many, many mothers whohave trans children, and if one parent
is against and the other is four orboth, or are against the child, or
there's a sibling who hates transgender,literally that, that is so, so hard
(26:01):
and challenging for their family.
And I've watched it, I've seen it forthe last three years I've been on with
other moms, talking with them, and yes,I feel like she's, she's very lucky,
blessed, and, and we're grateful too.
That support is so.
Impactful, especially at her youngage, even in her early twenties.
(26:23):
It's really important.
It's a difficult enough thing todo, even just to come out to you.
You opened the space for her, but ifshe hadn't had support, and I feel so
fed for the people who don't have thesupport, try and do it on their own.
But so you all were in this together.
Meanwhile, you, it's so interesting,you're talking about grieving.
(26:46):
It's like you lost a son and you gaineda daughter, but there's still that
loss there that it's, I think that'shard for people to, or maybe people
just don't recognize that that happens.
Yes.
I think you said something when we talkedbefore, like if you'd lost a child, the
whole neighborhood and the whole churchwould've been bringing you casserole,
(27:09):
nobody even knew that this was going on.
How difficult was that for you?
It was very challenging to.
To know that I was in a place of greatmorning and I just had to put on a happy
face for everybody else bebecause if theyknew, I figured they would be accepting.
(27:31):
And so I, we didn't talk about it andalso respected my daughter's wishes
that people didn't know at that time.
And when she did come out and say, Hey,you know, I said, can I tell grandma
and grandpa can I talk to my siblings?
By then it had been about six monthsand she said, yeah, I think that's okay.
(27:51):
And I wrote an email to my family.
I talked to my parents and then Iwrote an email to my siblings and I
felt so grateful for their responsesthat they would always love her, and
that she was welcome in their homes.
So I do feel really lucky.
When did she start transitioningsocially, dressing differently?
(28:14):
Bebecause it doesn't soundlike she did that right at the
beginning when she came out.
I'm going to say it wasabout a month later.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
But it was very, very slow.
Hmm.
It was very, very slow.
There was no rushing.
I know a lot of people are saying,oh, kids are turning trans and
they're transitioning so quickand they're having a surgery when
(28:34):
they're 11, and none of that is true.
None of that is true.
Even hormones, there are hormone blockers,but those are completely reversible.
And most people I know,it happens pretty slowly.
They're making sure, right.
They're trying to figure things out too.
So it was all very, very slow.
In fact, she didn't even tellus her name for a year after.
(28:57):
Wow.
She wanted to be sure that this waswhat she wanted and that it was for
sure that she felt right about it, andevery step of the way she was happy.
She felt right about it.
Good.
Yeah.
How did her friends respond?
Friends that she had in schooland like she was in college
then, I'm guessing, right?
(29:17):
Yes.
She was in college herlast year of college.
And I would say some of her friends,she distanced herself from them,
so
that that wasn't an issue.
She knew which ones of her friendswere transphobic and she just
stopped communicating with them.
So the few friends that she had leftshe knew were supportive and, and they
(29:38):
were good, and they asked questionsand she just answered just nice.
And the friends from the church,she had also distanced herself
from all the Mormon kids.
It just was too hard to be friends withthem knowing that they believed that
the devil had her when the devil didn't.
(30:00):
So how did her personality change?
Hmm?
Did you notice anything like that?
I would say she was stillthe same quiet person.
Funny.
She has a very cute sense ofhumor, so I don't feel like her
personality or any of that changed.
She's still who she is, loves the,the things that she loves, and
(30:24):
yeah, I don't feel like she's,she's changed all that much.
I know Wendy talks about her personalitychange when she transitioned, and
so it was interesting to see whetherthat made a difference to her.
I feel that is bebecause she went throughthis transition in her early twenties.
(30:45):
Okay.
Which
is what I had tried to do.
Yeah.
But, and I think it's a loteasier bebecause she didn't
have the life experience andall of the other things already.
She was in college when Ihad surgery at NYUI met.
I met girls who were between likesophomore and junior year who
(31:07):
were checking into the hospitaland having their surgeries and
they transitioned in college.
Huh.
And I think that makes a huge difference.
Okay.
For people.
So she chose her name andtook her time doing that.
Mm-hmm.
How did she feel the, and howdid you feel the first day
(31:29):
she went to class as herself?
I think it was just a beautiful,liberating experience when she
changed her name with the college.
All of her professors weregreat, accepted her new name.
She changed it legally with the courts.
Our family was there to support her.
Yeah, I think it, she loves her name.
(31:49):
We love her name.
It fits in our family so perfectly.
It is just, yeah.
I had a really neat experience withher name actually before she told me.
And I happened to, I was readingthe Bible 'because I'm a,
I'm a very religious person.
I read the Bible every day.
It's part of my, my life in Mormonismand aside from Mormonism and I was
(32:12):
reading a, a chapter about so and sobe got so and so be, got so and so.
And in my mind I was thinking,Ugh, I don't really care who
be got who and these names.
I don't even know who these people are.
And, and then the thought cameto me that names are important.
I just paused for a second,like, huh, names are important.
What am I supposed to learnfrom this chapter I'm reading?
(32:33):
And then I got the feeling that I neededto go and look up the name that my
daughter was possibly going to choose.
She told me she was using thefirst letter of her dead name.
And so I did like a Google search likeyou would if you're having a baby.
And I found about a hundrednames that started with that
letter and wrote 'em on a paper.
(32:54):
And then I circled about 25 of 'em thatI thought were just really pretty names.
And then I put a star next to the top10 like names that I was like, okay,
if she was this name, I would love it.
So I took her that paper later thatday and I said, Hey, I just want to
know if your name is on this list.
(33:15):
And she like looked at itfor like a full minute.
She read the whole a hundred namesor so, and she looked at me and she
said, yeah, and it circled and starred.
And then I knew that what I hadwritten down what I thought was a
beautiful name, she had also chosen.
So it was just kind of like metelling her in a very gentle
(33:37):
way, it's okay to change a name.
I'm, I'm going to love it.
And so that was one ofour positive experiences.
That is such a beautiful, positiveexperience to have your mom actually
support you in changing your nameand being who you really are.
(34:00):
I, I'm just so proud of you.
This is amazing.
Wait,
Coming from you.
But at the time, I reallydidn't know anything real.
I was still in the throes of, you know,
You
had the grief, you hadthe religious experience,
Sorrow.
Joy.
The, all the contrast that was going on.
(34:22):
Yes, and I, and I did have some peoplein my life that I love very much
and are, my dear friends talk verynegatively about transgender people.
And I took the time to listen to thembebecause I needed to hear the other side.
And these, would
Would you care to share some of those?
Without identifying my very goodfriends, one of them sent me emails
(34:45):
that just talked about how, how bad itis to transition and that biology is.
Science and there's no changing genders.
And a lot of the things that shewrote me, I, I looked up and I
studied and I wanted to know whatam I getting myself into, right?
If I support my child?
(35:07):
And the other friend of mine is amother with a trans daughter, and
she continuously gave me videosand things about det transitioning.
And I was like, okay, if Ireally want to know the truth,
I've gotta dig into both sides.
And I did.
And I, and I dug intowhat if, what if, right?
(35:28):
What if this happens?
What if that happens?
What if all of a sudden shewants to transition back?
All of those things.
I looked into it bebecause Iwas not going to be afraid.
I was going to gain more knowledge.
And knowledge is power, and I needed a lotmore knowledge than I had at that time.
So I am actually grateful for those.
(35:50):
I guess situations with my friendsthat were hurtful bebecause it
did help me to grow and learn.
And I have to say that if someone wereto ask me if my daughter was going to
detransition, my answer would be 100% no.
And of the more than dozen transwomen, I have got the privilege of
(36:14):
knowing over the last three years,zero of them are going to detransition.
And so I know that, I knowthat's a thing out there, right?
The 1% that it is possible.
But I also know in my heart thatit is from the pressures of job
and family and, and other thingsthat are pressuring that person
and religion,
(36:34):
A real transgender womandoes not detransition.
So the religion couldplay a part in that too.
Yes.
Yes.
What's going on?
Yeah, it's a, and like you're saying, it'sa small population that's doing that and.
I don't know.
I have no scientific information aboutthis, but it seems like that if you've
got, if you don't have the support offamily, if you don't have the support of
(36:57):
friends, if the religion is telling youthat your eternal soul is whatever, yeah.
Wants forever damned the, the devil'swork, then you know, I can see that
Some people might say, okay, thepressure I knew of living an inauthentic
life is less than the pressure oftrying to live an authentic life.
(37:19):
Does that seem like what you'reexperience, what you've seen?
What I have seen is exactly that.
Or they trudge forward without theirfamilies and they reject their families
bebecause their families rejected themfirst and they move on and they find
other families and people to support them.
The other alternative that I haveseen is they take their lives.
(37:41):
They don't want to live in a worldthat doesn't accept them, or a
family that doesn't accept them.
I know.
So you've got to know that.
Gender affirming care is lifesaving care.
It is lifesaving care for the personand for really for their families.
It was lifesaving for us,
Right.
And LGBT people don't come outbebecause they have courage
(38:07):
and they're doing all of that.
They come out to survive.
Yeah.
It's a survival thing that you reach andthat's what your daughter reached at 20.
She just didn't, couldn't goon anymore as that person.
That wasn't her.
Yes.
Bebecause that was an authentic for her.
(38:30):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Have you met others who have had thepuberty blockers or those types of things?
Your daughter was too old for thatwhen she transitioned and she came out.
Have you met others who have hadthat type of gender affirming care?
I know of the parents, so I don't knowtheir children personally bebecause
I'm on support groups for parents.
(38:52):
Okay.
And so, yeah, I ha I know kids thatare getting puberty blockers and
how lifesaving that is for them.
And then the hormonesdon't start till later on.
And again, that is with the helpof a therapist, a psychiatrist,
it's, it's not as easy as the mediaportrays it to be, to get hormones.
(39:14):
And so that needs to besaid first and foremost.
And also that there's nodanger in these hormones.
Cisgender people takehormones all the time.
So,
And cisgender people havesurgery all the time.
I was watching the news last night,and one of our favorite politicians
shall remain unnamed, made thestatement that it's really bad
(39:38):
in the schools, the teachers.
Are educating the kids onchanging their DR gender.
And your kid can go to the schooland come home as a different person
and even get the surgery and I'm,
yeah, that's, that is,
(39:58):
I wonder
why so many people are so confused andstick to these beliefs that, you know,
were so offensive to your child andto your family, is that's what they're
hearing from politicians as well.
That's obviously not true and not justbebecause it's obvious, but also I was
(40:23):
a substitute teacher for many, manyyears and there is no pushing of any
agenda on any children of any age.
And in fact, it's the opposite.
More of the teachers are not affirming.
At least in my, my town,
Right.?
So I think that it's sad thatpoliticians are able to say things
(40:44):
that are blatantly lies, butthat is, I know that is not true.
Right?
We both know that the medical profession,therapeutic professions are very much
into making sure that this is the rightthing for anyone going through it.
Right.
And there are, there are gates.
(41:05):
Yeah.
And one of the other things that,that the LDS Church promotes is
having a lot of children and thatthat's the job of a mother and a
father and raising the children.
And so some of the comments opposedto gender reaffirming at least surgery
and hormones is that, oh, thesepeople won't be able to have children.
(41:30):
That that's just a horrible thing,not just in the Mormon church, but
apparently that's a horrible thingif parent people don't have children.
I don't have children, so accordingto certain politicians, I'm
not as invested in this countrythat believe the politics aside.
But for you, you know, who were raisedMormon and, and have a lot of children,
(41:52):
what was the impact of knowing thatyour daughter could never have children,
at least biologically have children?
Not that she couldn't adopt,but biologically have children.
First of all, the hormonesdon't always make it so someone
can or cannot have children.
So that needs to be, unlessthere're a surgery, a, a trans
(42:14):
woman, trans man can have a child.
But it, it did cross my mind if shetakes hormones, that there would be a.
The possibility of no biological children.
And that was one of the, the processesof grieving that I had to go through,
that if she never had children, thenthat was, that was going to be okay.
(42:38):
And we talked a lot about it.
Like, do you, do you wantto get, take hormones?
Is this what this might happen?
And, and she said, this is,this is what I need to live, so.
It wasn't a question of children or notchildren, it was a question of living.
And that was a key word for her.
This is what she needs.
(42:58):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And that's something thatpeople don't understand either
is one, you're born this way.
Two, it's not a choice.
And three, she needed to do that.
She needed to do exactly what she did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that is a real disconnect between,I. Most of society and parents like me is
(43:19):
that this is lifesaving care for my child.
Mm-hmm.
It's not just a willy-nillywanting to do something
different, it's, it's lifesaving.
Gender affirming care is lifesaving.
Yeah.
Suicidal ideation continuesthroughout your entire life.
Struggling with this.
It doesn't go away andnone of this goes away.
(43:41):
So I think that's such a beautiful thingthat she actually got the opportunity
to transition and be her authentic self.
Staci, what's her life like now?
It's been a few years sinceshe's transitioned, right?
Would you say three years now?
Yeah.
Yeah.
(44:01):
So what's her life like now?
Good.
Yeah.
Job and apartment and, and friendships.
So it's good.
Nice.
So she's, she's built new friendships.
She happy in her job.
Yeah.
Is she finding acceptance andan acceptance in herself and
(44:24):
how she's doing with that?
Yes.
I think that's going to be an ongoingprocess, honestly, bebecause how many
years she presented male comparedto how many she's presented female,
and so it will just take time.
That's exactly what I was going to say.
I've found that with my own experiences.
(44:47):
It does take time and it continues toevolve, and I think you're going to
see a lot of evolving from her overthe, over the next five to 10 years.
Yeah.
Well, all of my daughters areevolving and changing and growing,
and it's just part of life.
(45:08):
Exactly.
That's the other thing that people don'tunderstand is life is all about change
and possibilities.
And your daughter took, took a reallyprofound step forward in defining her
own life and her own existence and
(45:31):
what you've done in order to support her.
I can just imagine the grievingprocess you went through.
How long did that actually last?
And are you still in some ways grieving orhas that over the last three, four years?
Has that started to settle in or,
(45:52):
That's a good question.
I feel like it was anentire year at least.
It was a full year of the grievingprocess until she was able to change
her name legally and go to school.
And honestly now there is momentsof, of grieving the expectations,
but small moments there ismore celebration than anything.
(46:15):
Like, not just celebration, butlike true joy in our relationship as
mother daughter, and we are so close.
So it is wonderful.
It's like I have five daughtersand we all share clothes.
We all just laugh together.
We're just, I just lovebeing a mom of girls.
(46:35):
Aw, that's beautiful.
Thank you.
It's so wonderful that you support her inthat and that you can be girls together.
Yeah.
That's just such an amazing thing.
You go through these challenges, andI know you, I'm not a Bible scholar
like you are, but you read aboutsome of these things in the Bible,
the forged by fire kind of things.
(46:55):
You go through these challengesand come out on the other side,
and you would never imagine thelife that you have now with her.
Mm-hmm.
That is so different and so close.
Not that you wouldn't have been closewith your son, but does that seem to
ring true for you, that you've gonethrough the fire and that you've
come out different on the other side?
(47:17):
I've actually never considered thatbebecause I was always close to
her, even as a child, very much so.
I remember she used to brushmy hair at night and then ask
for me to pay her a dollar.
I mean, just such cute little thingsI've, I've always felt close to her
and, and I consider even the past.
I consider her my daughter in the pastI just didn't know it, so I refer to
(47:41):
her as my daughter in the past as well.
I've noticed that, that you always referto her as her using female pronouns.
Yeah.
When you're referring to herwhen she was in a different body.
Yeah.
Was that something hard for you,you and your family to use those
pronouns and use her new name?
(48:04):
It actually wasn't that hard.
I know that we did slip up initiallya couple of times, but it wasn't
that hard to switch it since wehad already gone through a name
change with our non-binary nibbling.
And so we were like kindof prepared for for that.
And also we knew it was important to her.
And everything I had read andeverything I had listened to with
(48:26):
podcasts had said that the person'sperspective was, this is who I am,
this is how I want to be referred.
And so I feel like it was a sign of myrespect for my child's personal desires
to, to say the correct name and pronouns.
You all have such love and respectthat, that's just amazing as parents.
(48:48):
And congratulations isn't the rightword, but thank you for being Oh, no.
So, so loving and such respectful parents.
That's amazing.
Lucky, lucky you and lucky family.
Yep.
That, that's also something that,'because I've often said about my
own situation, I was never a man.
(49:12):
I lived as one, butthat was not by choice.
Yeah.
So I, I can just empathize witheverything that she went through and
how she must be feeling at the moment.
It's just wonderful.
Another big issue that we hear aboutin the news, which much ado about
(49:34):
nothing is bathroom situations.
We'd love to hear your takeon that, your stories on that.
What's been your experiencewith Oh my God, bathrooms.
Yeah.
Again, my experience is different andeverybody's going to have a different
experience and I, I recognize thatfirst and foremost, I, I have to
(49:55):
say that the safety of our children.
Young boys and young girls inbathrooms in their homes, in
churches, in schools is imperative.
It is so important that they are safe.
I do feel like sexual assault issomething that we need to look at clearly.
Sex trafficking, all those things areextremely important that we keep our
(50:19):
eyes wide open to what is happening inour society to protect our children.
And that is the bottom line forme, protecting our children.
Now, how I protect my child is differentbebecause she is a trans woman.
So my experience has been, welook for gender neutral bathrooms.
When we're at the mall, when we'retraveling, we, I know where all the gender
(50:42):
neutral bathrooms are in my town and incertain distances that we're traveling.
I think the hardest thing for me wastraveling through Utah and Idaho.
In doing so, we had to use bathroomsthat we were not familiar with the
town or, or where the gender neutralbathrooms were, if there were any at all.
(51:03):
Right?
And so we would stop at rest stops andwe would travel early, early in the
morning to avoid being with other people.
There was one situation where we stoppedat a fast food place and I noticed
there was probably 10 young girlsin line in the restroom, and I just
turned to my daughter and said, thisis not a safe place for us to stop.
(51:24):
And we got in the car and drove somewhereelse bebecause we both wanted to respect
those girls that were standing in line.
And I didn't want my daughterfeeling uncomfortable, and I also
didn't want those young girlsin line feeling uncomfortable.
So I think that a lot of times thenews portrays the bathroom situation
as being dangerous for other people,but it is also dangerous for my child.
(51:48):
It is also dangerous for her tobe in a situation where she is.
Maybe not treated well or maybe she hassomeone looking at her with, with contempt
and I did not want that to happen.
So we were very careful in traveling.
People base their decision quickly onimmediate appearance, whether it's male or
(52:10):
female, bebecause our minds aren't reallycomprehending, like you were talking about
gender neutral or peoplewho look androgynous.
Did your daughter, what was herappearance that concerned you about
going into a woman's restroom?
She does dress very much like a non-binaryperson, so I would not say that my
(52:32):
daughter has ever dressed in, you know,the dresses, heels, makeup, none of that.
It's, it's more of a very casual,I know who I am and I don't need to
dress up and that's perfectly fine.
So yeah, she doesn't maybe pass forthe way that a lot of women pass.
(52:53):
And I think that makesher more of a target.
And that's so sad bebecause it is,people are trying to define women
and men by their outward appearance.
And if you don't look like Barbie andKen then, then you know, who are you
and how do we figure out as if peoplereally need to know We don't need, right.
(53:14):
Are we having someone checking peopleat the bathroom to check their shorts?
It's, it's crazy.
You go into a stall, you close thestall, you use the stall, you come
out, you wash your hands, and you go,
You just have to make sure your feetare oriented in the right direction.
I just got that.
I, I do think it's very interesting.
It's dehumanizing to make a personfeel like they can't use the
(53:38):
restroom or that they're not safe.
Right.
Or to make up this fearful thingthat someone else isn't going to
be safe if you are in the restroom.
It is, I. It is unkindand it is dehumanizing.
I will say that when I was in Seattlea couple months ago, I went to, I
think it was a Starbucks downtown, andthere were like, I think there were six
(54:00):
or eight bathrooms, all single stallbathrooms, all gender neutral, and then
there was one long sink for everybody.
I have never felt so safe in abathroom bebecause every bathroom
was gender neutral and it wasthe most amazing feeling that all
people, all humans can be safe.
(54:21):
We,
we are, our bathroom situation needsto change somehow so that there are
more single bathrooms for eitherfamilies or gender neutral humans.
So she, does she feel unsafe inbathrooms when you're not there?
Does she have another womango in the bathroom with her
or does she fine on her own?
(54:44):
No.
Where she lives.
She's, she's fine there.
So a lot of gender.
Yeah.
Good.
All right.
Bebecause that seems likea ridiculous issue, like I
said, much a do about nothing.
Yeah.
In in general, that's been my experience.
And talking with other people,we're just going to the bathroom
to take care of your Your needs.
(55:08):
And needs.
Many needs.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do we want to talk about thenewest, whatever it's called,
proclamation that the Mormon Policy.
Policy.
Policy.
Oh yeah.
So do we want to talk about the newestpolicy that the Mormon Church put
(55:28):
out recently and how that impactspeople who were born transgender?
Yeah.
It's impacted a lot of people.
Well, number wise no, but, but
the people I
know.
Yeah.
So how did you react whenyou saw that new policy?
When I saw the new policy withthe LDS church, I, I was shocked.
(55:53):
I couldn't believe that they wouldput something out that they claimed
was ministering, when really it wasdehumanizing telling transgender people
they had to go to the classrooms of theirgender assigned at birth, the restrooms,
unless someone was guarding the door,it was, it wasn't Christ-like, it wasn't
(56:16):
what I believe as far as policies go.
And it wasn't, it wasn'ta, a human policy.
It was a, it was a manmade policy.
And when I realized that, I knewin my heart that this was, this was
not God's word, then I felt likeit was important that I removed
(56:37):
my name from the LDS church.
And not be a part of it, which is reallyhurtful to, I know, to my family, but it
was important to me to remove my name,
Not being Mormon, I don't understandthat process or that significance.
But you're saying that that was quitea significant step that you took to
(56:59):
remove your name from the church?
From the church roles.
Is that what that is?
Yes.
And they, they negate your baptismand they negate your temple marriage.
So that is supposed to be hurtful to you.
But my beliefs have changedin that God knows my heart and
therefore those papers don't matter.
(57:22):
Mm-hmm.
Bebecause God where I stand and that Iam still putting God first in my life.
Well, I see that you arestill a very spiritual person.
I. How do you think your spiritualityis going to evolve now that
you've separated from the church?
Do you think you'll look foranother church more accepting or
(57:46):
basically do what I do my own thing?
I think part of, part of it, doing yourown thing is really important bebecause
you grow into what is important to you.
So I still pray and hate and readmy scriptures, things that I really
loved about Mor Mormonism, I've kept
Good for you.
I do attend a new
church.
I attend a new church that is genderand L-G-B-T-Q affirming, and my daughter
(58:09):
has attended with me a couple timesand a very, very nice congregation.
I would say my spirituality haschanged to accept all religions.
Last night we read a Buddhistprayer before dinner, and so we're
just getting truth in all placesaround the world instead of just one
(58:30):
religion and one path and one belief.
We are seeing truth everywhereand it is so beautiful.
And the people that I thought were,you know of the wrong religion, I
don't feel that way about them anymore.
I say, what can you teach me?
What, what can I learn from you?
(58:50):
We went to a Jewishsynagogue two weeks ago.
It was so beautiful.
We sang in Hebrew.
It was so beautiful.
It was, it was spiritual.
And so I still feel like there aremany, many places to find truth
outside of religion and especiallyfor me outside of Mormonism.
(59:11):
That is so beautiful, Staci.
And it sounds like your relationshipwith God is just growing and
deepening and, and not only justwith God, but with the whole world,
but with people and all of humanity.
All of humanity.
Yeah.
The acceptance and, and Ilove what you say that you're
looking for truth everywhere.
(59:32):
Is the truth.
And there's so much fear now.
People are trying to stokethe fear to separate us.
And what you're doing is investigating andbringing people together as human beings.
Yes.
Lovely.
Thank you for doing that.
And Wendy, did you have anyother questions now before we
ask her if she's got any finalwords, talking about resources
(59:57):
Would you care to say anything toother moms or parents or grandparents?
Any advice for them?
Yes, for sure.
Talking with other parents andgrandparents, it's number one, listen.
Listen to your child, how they feel.
(01:00:17):
Every child's different.
Every experience is going to be different.
Just take the time to listen.
And number two, love your child.
Whatever they have to tell you.
Love them unconditionally.
You can help them on thepath that they're on.
Even if they're an adultchild, you're still their mom
or their grandma or grandpa.
(01:00:38):
You can help them.
And the last one wouldJesus, be educate yourself.
That that path led me tosuch greater understanding.
I'm so grateful for like Mama Dragons.
They had a parachute program that Iwent through and I literally sat in
my computer sobbing as I listened.
(01:01:01):
It was so beautiful.
It was.
It was meant for allparents of L-G-B-T-Q Kids.
Beautiful program.
I had a coach with Lift and Love.
She helped me in my darkest hours.
To just bring to light the, thefeelings and the fear that I had.
And, and you, Wendy, I've beenon coaching calls with you.
(01:01:22):
I've loved it.
I have felt like I can express my, myfears, my hopes, my doubts, my joys.
And you completely understand.
So in the education also needs to comehelp for your child, either therapy or
coaching or psychiatry or something,bebecause you cannot do it alone.
(01:01:44):
And that speaks for the parents too.
Get help for your child, get help for you.
And take care of yourself.
One thing you said to me before wasbelieve your child when they tell you that
they are a different gender, when theytell you what's going on, believe them.
Yeah.
(01:02:05):
Yeah.
That is
very important.
They come out to you to survive,but it takes a lot of courage.
To actually tell somebody else,especially a parent, they love
so deeply that I'm not your son.
I'm your daughter.
I will say I felt so privileged tobe the first person and I have heard
(01:02:29):
other moms talk about how their childtold their friends first, or their
teacher at school first or or someother situation and how hurt they were.
And again, every child'sdifferent in where they feel
safe and who they'll come out to.
Whether that's gay or transgenderor you know, anything that they're
(01:02:49):
holding inside that is in their mindshurting them, that's a secret for them.
I feel very privileged that mydaughter and I are so close.
Staci, is there any way people can reachyou if they have questions, if they want
advice or help or anything like that?
Are you willing to connect with peoplethat have listened to this podcast.
(01:03:14):
I would love to, I, you canput my email in the show notes.
And also I'm on the Mama Dragons Facebook.
I'm actually not on there veryoften, but you can find me
on there with Mama Dragons.
So we'll get those links from you.
We'll put those in the show notes.
Okay.
Thank you for doing that.
Because your approach to your daughter,just to the world is so outstanding
(01:03:37):
and it just, it shows that thereare people like you in the world who
under, well, not that they understand.
Wendy keeps correcting me on that,that it's not that you understand the
situation, but you accept that you loveyour child and what a beautiful gift that
you've given to her and to your otherchildren and really to your friends.
I think it's a gift to some ofthe people in your church who have
(01:03:59):
known you for all these years.
Now see the change there, there may be,there's, there's resistance there, but
there may be something going on there.
Maybe you've planted a seed that they go,
Hmm,
okay, Staci is doing this, and werespected her and now we're making
out that the devil's got her.
But maybe there's something there.
(01:04:20):
So I'm hoping that all those seeds thatyou've been planting, that you, just
by being who you are and taking careof your daughter and your family, the
way you do that, that will help educatepeople, help them see this perspective.
So we thank you so much for doingthis today, for joining us, and I
know our audience has enjoyed this.
(01:04:42):
Staci, any final words?
Well, I just want to say thankyou for letting me share some
of my stories and experiences.
I, I really would like to, to callout the politicians and the religious
leaders, including my own and society ingeneral, and the movie makers of the past.
Who have marginalizedthis group of people.
(01:05:04):
And because as a mom I was not prepared.
All the ill spoken of the transgendercommunity is, it's, it's not true.
It's unfair.
And that trans people have always existedand they will always exist, and they're
good, kind, smart, resilient people.
(01:05:26):
I know they are bebecause thisis my child and she is beautiful
and wonderful and I love her.
Hmm.
Thank you Staci.
Thank you
Wendy, any last comments?
Thank you so much, Staci.
You're so inspiring and yes,I, I'm hopeful that this, your
(01:05:47):
conversation with us today will helpothers change their perspectives
and prevent somebody else from.
Doing something more harmfulto their child that they don't
need to do except their child.
I know the parents who arenot accepting their children.
I know them.
(01:06:08):
Mm-hmm.
I've, I've seen them, so it's hard.
Yep.
Again, thank you Staci, so much for today.
Thank you.
To our audience, I'm LynnMurphy, and this is Wendy Cole.
We've been co-hosting today in thispodcast demystifying the Transgender
(01:06:28):
journey, where we're educatingpeople about the experiences of
people who are born transgender.
Share this out, subscribe like us.
Leave a comment, we'llcomment back to you.
We would love to hear your comments.
We would love to hear.
You have to say, and we will put Staci'sinformation in the show notes today.
So thank you.
Tune in next time bebecause we'll haveanother very special guest and we would
(01:06:51):
like to continue to educate you onDemystifying the Transgender Journey
Thank you for joining us todayon this episode of Demystifying
the Transgender Journey.
Remember to subscribe so youdon't miss a single episode
of our fascinating interviews.
You can also find more information onour website, the transgender journey.com.
So until next time, staycurious and stay kind.
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